Vegas Pauly C: The Casino Debt Crisis Nobody Is Talking About | DSH #1733

Summary

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Digital Social Hour – Vegas Pauly C: The Casino Debt Crisis Nobody Is Talking About | DSH #1733

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Vegas Pauly C
Date: January 4, 2026
Location: One Drop Poker Event, Resorts World, Las Vegas

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and candid episode, Sean Kelly sits down with the returning guest, Vegas Pauly C, during the One Drop Poker event at Resorts World. Their conversation takes listeners deep into the casino industry’s underbelly, exposing the alarming yet under-discussed crisis of casino debt, the REIT (Real Estate Investment Trust) financial structures affecting giants like MGM and Caesars, and the human side of gambling addiction. Pauly C’s personal anecdotes, industry analysis, and raw honesty add authenticity and gravity to topics ranging from gaming regulations to mob history and dopamine-fueled addiction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Background & Integrity in Casino Content

• Pauly C’s Approach: He explains he doesn’t monetize his videos through questionable sponsorships common in the casino content world, turning down lucrative offers from offshore or unregulated gambling sites.
  • “I’m living in poverty because I don’t take the money from them because I don’t feel good about them…Like, how would I know what the hell’s going on in some server in Antigua?” (02:10–02:41)
• Seeking Meaningful Partnerships: Pauly highlights his negotiations only with reputable properties like the Plaza or the Rio—casinos receptive to improving player fairness.
  • Example: Advocated for the Plaza to change its craps payout from 150:1 to 175:1, showing how he works for consumer benefit. (03:01–04:19)

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2. Las Vegas Casino Debt Crisis & REIT Structures

• Alarming Debt Levels: Pauly gives a deep dive into the REIT structure's impact on casino finances, using clear analogies to home mortgages.
  • MGM and Caesars have combined $70B in assets with $56B in debt:
    “Imagine you have 70 billion and 56 billion in debt, which is exactly what’s going on there.” (05:56–08:15)
• Escalating Debt Service: The REIT deals built in annual rent escalators, meaning massive annual increases.
  • “…The rents next year, instead of being 7 billion, are going to be 7.15 billion. So they’re going to up $150 million next year. That’s a lot of money.” (09:43–10:02)
• Unsustainable Models: Harris Atlantic City is cited as an archetype illustrating properties where REIT rent outpaces actual operating profit—$5.5M monthly rent vs. $3.5M profit.
  • “How long does that last?” (10:06–10:53)

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3. Casinos, Profitability, and the Potential for Closures

• Which Casinos Are Most at Risk?
  • Fontainebleau’s debt structure is discussed, with Pauly indicating closures are unlikely as long as a property has even minimal positive cash flow, likening the reorganizations to what was seen with Atlantic City’s Revel.
  • “If they have even $10 million in annual EBITDA…you wipe out X amount of that $3 billion in a reorganization.” (15:34–18:21)
• Circus Circus, a Surprising Winner:
  • Despite its reputation as a budget property, it’s reportedly clearing $90M annually, outperforming even some high-end resorts in ROI.
  • “They’re making more than Resorts World.” (18:36–18:42)

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4. The Economics of Casino Loyalty and Changing Incentives

• Players’ Perspective:
  • The “old Vegas” stories of comps and luxury for high rollers have faded; now, even $30K isn’t enough for prestige treatment at the Wynn.
• Shift to Properties like Venetian:
  • “So now you would have to be a hundred thousand dollar player minimally to get…And I don’t even know if they’ll send the Rolls Royce.” (19:44–20:42)

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5. Pauly C on Addiction, Dopamine, and the Social Side

• Addiction as a Neurochemical Battle:
  • Pauly speaks openly about his gambling addiction, linking it to dopamine deficiency as Gary Brecka (biohacker, referenced several times) describes.
  • “With this mutation, CCAATT, I don’t produce neurotransmitters…Getting back to Gary Brecka, the deficiency for me is dopamine—and that deficiency is the root cause of all addiction.” (21:16–22:25)
• Replacing Gambling with Social Media Dopamine:
  • Pauly finds a similar dopamine hit in engaging with his social media followers, reading and responding to comments.
• Even with Big Wins:
  • Asked if a huge jackpot would end his gambling: “No way…I wouldn’t quit…absolutely never stops.” (21:03–21:14)

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6. Mob Influence: Past and Present

• Mob Culture’s Lasting Imprint:
  • While the mob isn’t running strip casinos, Pauly argues their influence persists in certain street-level operations.
  • “The card clackers on the Strip…I think they’re still…You know, there’s things that they’re involved in.” (27:08–27:28)
• Hospitality Rooted in Italian Culture:
  • Pauly muses on how Italian culture—emphasizing hospitality and gambling—naturally fit the old Vegas casino landscape.
  • “Italians, by their very nature, are feeding you Nona’s sauce on Sunday…So when they came out to Vegas…they love gaming…we’re gamblers by nature, and we’re hospitable. So it made sense that the mob and mafia was out here in the 60s, 70s days.” (28:17–30:34)

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7. Sports Betting Scandals and Addiction

• Mob Connections to College & Pro Scandals:
  • From NBA betting scandals to the recent MLB incidents, Pauly details ongoing vulnerabilities—especially for young, pressured, or underpaid athletes.
  • “I understand the D League player…if he can clear…$100,000 on an under bet, I get it. But a baseball player who’s probably going to sign a $20 million a year contract…that must be an addiction thing…It’s not money at that point.” (31:59–33:17)
• Sympathy for Young Athletes:
  • “They cast the die on a horrible outcome for the rest of their life by making one or two stupid decisions…My heart breaks for them.” (34:06–34:27)
• Personal Vulnerability:
  • Pauly contrasts how growing up with a support network in a safe neighborhood shielded him from harsher outcomes, compared to what athletes or people in tougher environments might face.
  • “If I had grown up in an area that was really shitty, I’d be either dead or in jail.” (34:29–35:27)

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8. Industry Relationships & Admiration

• On Johnny Serizani and Others:
  • Pauly expresses admiration for casino influencers who maintain old-school values of energy, hospitality, and humility, praising Johnny Serizani and recounting first meetings.
  • “If there were 10,000 John Cerazani’s, we could turn Vegas back into Vegas 1980…because the energy, the Italianness…” (37:17–38:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I had grown up in an area that was really shitty, I’d be either dead or in jail. But because I grew up in a privileged area, I became… the clown. I’m the guy who’s always broke… But I always had people to go to for support.” — Pauly C (00:00–00:49, 34:27–35:27)
• “How would I know what the hell’s going on in some server in Antigua?” — Pauly C (02:41)
• “The deeper I got into it, the more I realized how lethal the REIT structure is to Las Vegas…They mortgaged up all their properties.” — Pauly C (05:56–08:15)
• “You have to make another half a million dollars every single day just to stay even.” — Pauly C (09:43–10:02)
• “Circus Circus… he has independent wealth. He’s a billionaire. I don’t know what his debt is…he has $90 million in positive cash flow…So he’s got an 11% return.” — Pauly C (18:26–18:39)
• “If you had shown up at the Wynn in 2017 at $30,000, Araceli sent a limo, a Rolls Royce limo…If you show up now…you basically can triple that.” — Pauly C (19:58–20:42)
• “There’s so much dopamine in social media. There is a lot.” — Pauly C (23:17)
• “Do I want to get whacked tomorrow? Not really…” — Pauly C (27:18–27:28)
• “Italians, by their very nature, are feeding you Nona’s sauce on Sunday… It really makes sense.” — Pauly C (28:17–30:34)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–02:42 – Pauly C’s personal background, reasons for not monetizing via questionable gambling partners.
• 03:01–04:19 – Negotiations with properties like the Plaza to improve player odds.
• 05:56–10:06 – In-depth breakdown of the REIT/casino debt crisis.
• 10:06–11:01 – Harris Atlantic City as an example of unsustainable debt structure.
• 15:34–18:21 – Financial health and likelihood of Vegas casino closures (Fontainebleau case).
• 18:26–19:44 – Circus Circus profitability and operation strategies.
• 21:03–22:25 – Honesty about gambling addiction and the dopamine chase.
• 27:08–28:17 – Mob involvement then and now; cultural connection to hospitality.
• 31:59–34:27 – Sports betting scandals, addiction, and sympathy for young athletes.
• 37:17–38:28 – Admiration for Johnny Serizani and old Vegas energy.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a deeply personal yet data-rich look at the casino industry’s economics, hidden debt crisis, cultural history, and the complex, ongoing realities of addiction. Pauly C’s transparency and expertise—complimented by Sean’s sharp, respectful questioning—make this a must-listen for anyone curious about Las Vegas’s present and future, behind the lights.

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Transcript

[Paulie C]

On a horrible outcome for the rest of their life by making one or two stupid decisions or getting associated wanting to be. You know, it breaks my heart and I said this on a previous podcast with you, and I'll stand by it. With my problem with my deficiency ccaatt and my addictions and my childhood, and I'm not virtue signaling. If I had grown up in an area that was really shitty, I'd be either dead or in jail. But because I grew up in a privileged area, I became, you know, I'm the clown. I'm the court jester. I'm the community. I'm the guy who's always broke. I'm the guy. Oh, my God. This is what my friends were saying in 1995. Can you believe Paul and Bruce sold that company and pull down a million dollars cash and this idiot is broke 10 months later? You know what I mean? So I was always like, sort of the clown the story. But I always had people to go to for support. I always had people that had economic opportunity.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, guys, we are at the one drop poker event in Resorts World Ollie lounge with a returning guest today, Vegas, Paulie C. Well, hello, hello, hello. Let's go.

[Paulie C]

I just want to tell everybody I have sunglasses on. Not to be cool. Well, because I got a little cancer in the right eye and they took it off and it's, you know, it's all black and it's bloody and it's okay.

[Podcast Host]

I thought you brought them because you were gonna play a little poker.

[Paulie C]

No, no, no.

[Podcast Host]

You haven't played poker in a while, right?

[Paulie C]

I played poker at the game at downstairs one time. They gave me $2,000 to play the game, and I just.

[Podcast Host]

Video one.

[Paulie C]

I had kings. No, no, regular poker.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, okay.

[Paulie C]

And I had a pair of kings and I lost a 10, two off or something like that.

[Podcast Host]

What?

[Paulie C]

Went all in? Yeah, yeah, he busted me. I was jack two off.

[Podcast Host]

How would he call you a jack two off?

[Paulie C]

It's a. It's very loose game down there.

[Podcast Host]

Wow, you must have been. He must have picked up a tell on you or something.

[Paulie C]

Yeah, the tell is, wow, I got a good hand. Garrick. You guys are in trouble.

[Podcast Host]

What's new with you, man? Though it's been about a year since.

[Paulie C]

You'Ve been on, so, you know, I've been at this about three years. And, you know, my old story is I've never monetized. I don't get paid for videos. It's not adventure videos around town where I just, you know, show up, do them. I did A liquor store the other day. And, you know, I'm just looking to monetize with something I like. You know, I get accused a lot on social media of nonsense. There's no nonsense. Look at my page. You don't see any offshore websites. You don't see any social casinos. You don't. You don't see anything.

[Podcast Host]

I'm sure you've been offered those deals.

[Paulie C]

Oh, I'm living in poverty because I don't take the money from them because I don't feel good about them. Like, I don't know who they are. Like, most of them are unregulated. And then the ones that are in this country, they're being sued. It was just a big lawsuit. No names, but two very big people in the social media space are being sued.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Paulie C]

Just for promoting them or promoting steak.

[Podcast Host]

Damn.

[Paulie C]

Yeah, I think it's steak. Might be something else. And I've turned down, you know, all kinds of money because I just can't feel good about it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Like, how would I know what the hell's going on in some server in Antigua?

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Paulie C]

You know what I mean?

[Podcast Host]

So if someone prestigious like Venetian or Wynn approached you, though, would that.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm working on deals with two hotels right now, believe it or not.

[Podcast Host]

Shocking.

[Paulie C]

You know, finally I've done my three years in the desert and the one of them I really, really, really love, I've always loved. And he's downtown and, you know, I'm Jonathan. Jonathan.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. He's supposed to be here, I think.

[Paulie C]

Yeah, he's amazing and I want to work out something with him, but I could feel good about the Plaza. You know, people say to me, well, why do you feel good about the Plaza? You know, true story. I said to Jonathan, I said, you're all tall, small, and your crap table pays 150 to 1. Just like every other hotel on the Strip. Used to be 175 to 1. They lowered it to 150 to 1. Now 175 to 1. The house has a 7% house hedge. Yeah. I said to Jonathan, why don't you be the only game in the world that pays 180 to 1? You know, it's like a 5% edge. He said, okay, Paulie, you know, I'm going to look into that. And he came back to me and he actually said, you know, I can't offer a 180 to 1 because that layout is not approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Paulie C]

He said, but 175 is. And he changed it. And he said to me, look, if I can make the players happy and still make a profit, I'm going to give them the better odds. So if I work something out with them and I'm down there and you see me down there, it's going to be for causes. Because you have a person running the casino who's giving better odds, better games. He's got single zero roulette. He's got full pay on the pop crafts, which is also my doing. I said, jonathan, why don't you put in pop crafts with full pay? Do you know that the salesman tried to talk him out of it? He said, no, you want to do limited pay? You don't want to do. He said, no, I want to do full pay. He did full pay. Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Shout out to Jonathan.

[Paulie C]

And he's going to change a few other things there because I'm, you know, I'm hammering him. Right. Who else is going to listen to me like that? Although the Rio, you know, I want to give credits. The Rio, same thing. I went in there, I spoke with Patrick Miller. I said, why don't you do a better video poker here?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Two weeks later, you have full pay video poker on the bar. It's the only place north of South Pointe that has it.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Paulie C]

He also did the full pay. He put a table there. He put Vegas police. I said, but you got to put my name on the table. You got to put strip rules. You know, the best rules. He put the strip rules. So, you know, the Rio is not really in that position to offer me anything or to do anything with me. But if I can work something out with the Plaza or if I could work something out with somewhere else, you know, if I believe in the property, I mean, you know, I love the Venetian.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I mean, it's my favorite hotel in Vegas.

[Paulie C]

Your favorite hotel. I mean, the diversity of food there.

[Podcast Host]

And they just added that one restaurant. CO10 Kota.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. Yeah. I did a video from there. And BOA.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

They have six steakhouses there. And you can't say a bad word about any of the six.

[Podcast Host]

Nope. My favorite breakfast spot in Vegas is.

[Paulie C]

There too Lux Cafe.

[Podcast Host]

Not that one. It's next to the VR spot. I forget the name.

[Paulie C]

Upstairs or downstairs?

[Podcast Host]

Downstairs. Damn.

[Paulie C]

The Latin place.

[Podcast Host]

I might be. They make a mean croissant sandwich.

[Paulie C]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Great coffee there.

[Paulie C]

Cool. Yeah. The food there is unbelievable.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Shout out to the Venetian. Yeah, it's my favorite. Anytime I do a staycation, I prefer the Venetian.

[Paulie C]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because the rooms are great.

[Paulie C]

You get a suite They've got everything there.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, you know, it's.

[Paulie C]

A lot of people don't realize how wonderful it is. And they come over there like, wow.

[Podcast Host]

So the last time you came on a year ago, a couple casinos were struggling. I know you really study the numbers. How are the financials looking like right now?

[Paulie C]

Well, you know, I went really deep into the financials of both Caesars. Mgm. You know, those are the primary to the Strat now is being taken off the market. So that's no longer, you know, part of the conversation. Most of these places are private. But with the Caesars financials being out there and able to read and the MGM financials, we'll just talk about Caesars for a second. The deeper I got into it, the more I realized how lethal the REIT structure is to Las Vegas. You know, you have casino executives who signed deals in 2019, 2020, the MGM deal, and they signed away long term gain for short term gain. So what they did was they mortgaged up all their properties. So if you take the total market cap and all the debt, including the capital leases for Caesars and MGM, and you add it together, you come up with $56 billion in debt and about $14 billion in equity as of today. The stocks are up today even though they were downgraded by the brokerages today because the stock market was up so much. MGM and Caesars were both up about 6%. So you have $14 billion in equity. And I spoke about this on another podcast. I said, you know, you're living in your house, you feel good. Your house is worth $700,000. You know, you come home, you got your wife, your kids, your dog, everybody's happy. But if you have a $560,000 mortgage on the house, it's a little tight. Anyone who's owned a home knows that a $700,000 house with a $560,000 mortgage, it's a little tight. Now, imagine like, and I'm comparing these numbers exactly, but I'm just chopping off zero. Caesars and MGM. Imagine you have 70 billion and 56 billion in debt, which is exactly what's going on there. You see the parallel between 700,000 and 560,070, but it's worse than that. It goes up 2%, not all of the debt. The capital leases on MGM are 25 billion. The capital leases on ceases are 12 billion. So 37 billion out of the 55 billion they owe is in the REIT structure. Here's the amazing thing about the reit Structure. And we'll just use simple math, simple example. So they owe $37 billion in REIT money.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Paulie C]

I'm just going to use 7% because it's a blended rate. You know, Caesars pays a little higher. MGM did a 5% deal with the Cosmos, so some of their debt is at a very low number. It's at 5%. But next year, right, 7%. Next year it goes up by 2%. Now, that sounds like nothing, but that means that your rate next year is not 7%. It. It's 7.14%, because 2% of 7% is 0.14. And the year after that, it's roughly 7.3. And this goes up every year. And if you actually take a huge number, like $37 billion, and then we'll take 7% of that, so that's 2.1. We'll use 2.5 billion, you know, just as a round number, as the amount of money that they're paying. The restructure, 2.5 billion, and then that's going to go up 2% next year. So 2.5 billion. 1% of 2.5 billion is 250 million. Right. So 2% of that is. Is 5, is 500 million. It turns out to be a huge amount of money. You know, it's. It just adds up and adds up and adds up. And wow, next thing you know, you're paying a fortune to the REITs. So the REITs are. Let me revisit that number again. 7.5 billion. 1% of 7.5 billion is not 750 million. It's 75 million. So 75 million twice goes up to 150 million. So the rents next year, instead of being 7 billion, are going to be 7.15 billion. So they're going to up $150 million next year. That's a lot of money. I mean, they're big corporations. Caesar's has 50 properties. MGM probably has 10 or 15. I don't know the exact number. They're big companies, but still, when you think about the fact that you need to make another half a million dollars every single day just to stay even.

[Podcast Host]

On your rent, and they're not doing that right now. Right.

[Paulie C]

Well, you know, the property that stands out. There's always an archetype when you're trying to make a point. And I'm pretty sure this is the archetypal, though I have not looked at all 50 properties that are indebted to the restructure. Harris, Atlantic City, the. The monthly rent to the REIT is five and a half million dollars. I know. This is all on the New Jersey Casino Control Commission. All. It's all. All published. The monthly gross profit is three and a half million. So they make three and a half million profit. The rooms, the casino, the food. Three and a half million. It's not bad. It's $100,000 a day. But they've indebted the property so badly. They signed a REIT deal for 599 million there that every month their rent is five and a half million. Three and a half million in profit. Five and a half million in rent. How long does that last?

[Podcast Host]

Jeez.

[Paulie C]

And now some of the companies that did these loans are coming under pressure. You can look at their stock. Eight down. Eight. One of them is down 8% of the year. The other one's down 12% of the. Wow.

[Podcast Host]

I did not expect that, because the first time you came on, we were talking about Resorts World and Fountain Blue. But you're talking about some big dogs now, MGM and Caesars.

[Paulie C]

Well, you know what happened? I got bored of Resorts World and I got bored of Fontainebleau. You know, nothing's changed in either place. It's the same story. Resorts World will never learn. I realize that. We're here. I don't care. And Fontainebleau gets better and better. They at least they have the ability to learn. They have the ability to put a better product out there. They open very cold, but they've warmed up tremendously. And I got tired of Resorts World because Resorts World is here and it's not going anywhere. And they make a very marginal return here. They made $18 million last quarter. The run rate on that for the year, let's just use 80 million. They have a $4.2 billion investment. $4.2 billion investment here. 2% return.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Paulie C]

Well, 80 million is 2% of 4.2 billion, so they make a 2% return. You know, I grew a little in this job, if you want to call it that. And I went from being just a total enfant terrible in the beginning to really thinking about the city, thinking about the leaders, thinking about the economy out here.

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[Paulie C]

And the bottom line is this. Genting Berhard came to Las Vegas. They gambled $4.2 billion. 3 billion of it is cash. They wrote it from the parent company, money that they made in Singapore. So they made a $3 billion deposit in the Las Vegas economy. They're not making money here. Their actual interest, they owe 1.2 billion. So their quarterly interest is 25 million. They have 18 million in cash flow. The parent company's still putting money in here. But the larger point that I want to make is great for Las Vegas. Someone came here. Right. Reminds me when I was a kid, did you play poker when you were a kid?

[Podcast Host]

A little bit.

[Paulie C]

Okay. So remember the kid that would show up who's, like, rich and had absolutely no idea how to play poker?

[Podcast Host]

The fish, they call it. Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Wasn't he the best?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Well, that's Resorts World. They came to Las Vegas. They have no idea what they're doing, but they did write a $3 billion check and stick it in the economy. And they're here, and they make their 20 million a quarter in cash flow. And, you know, it's just a boring story because they don't really excel. They don't really fall apart. They have no success in the United States. Anybody who's following the New York story knows what they did there. I can't even get into it. It's too deep into the weeds. Maybe try and stay in Las Vegas, but, you know, no success in Catskills. No success in New York. I just read the other day for the first time that they lost $400 million in a tribal investment in Massachusetts. Really? I had no idea they lent $400 million. It just came up. You know when you read casino.org, and you read igaming.com and you read legal sports report, and you read casino.whatever. and you read all these stories. Every once in a while they'll link to something, and I don't think it's widely known. It was announced on the Malaysian Stock Exchange that they have a $400 million exposure to this tribe in Massachusetts. And the reason it was a story is because the federal government just recently revoked their ability to open a casino. So now the $400 million becomes like, hey, we lent you guys $400 million. How are you going to pay it back? So I think they had to give some sort of announcement to the Malaysian Stock Exchange on that. Wow. But, you know, the more you read and the more you're involved in this, the more you grow and the more you know. So, you know, I'm doing it every day.

[Podcast Host]

So which casino in Vegas do you think is going to shut down next?

[Paulie C]

I don't know that anybody will shut down as long as they have positive ebitda. So if you have a property, even if it is a $10 billion investment, well, let's just use the Fontainebleau across the street. And I have not. I saw the Fontainebleau's financials in February of 2024. I have not seen them since then. Hey, how come nobody sends me the financials anymore?

[Podcast Host]

I thought.

[Paulie C]

I thought you guys were so disgruntled over there.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, so you had to get it sent to you. It's not public.

[Paulie C]

A disgruntled investor. Well, what I didn't know was, and I found out later, not only did Jeff raise money, not only did he raise money from Vici and Blackstone. I know he owes Vici 300 million and he borrowed 500 million from Blackstone. So not only did he borrow 800 million from those two entities, and that's publicly announced because Blackstone and Vici are public companies. Not only did he do that, he borrowed money from a lot of wealthy families.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. Private lenders.

[Paulie C]

I mean, I don't know why. So he borrowed money from. And some of them are disgruntled, and one of them was sending me the financials, but not anymore. I haven't seen it, you know, and like I said, a year and a half. But let's just use them as an example, because you're asking me who's going to go out of business? So they owe. I don't. I'm going to guess they owe $3 billion. It's a guess because I don't know the exact number. So they owe $3 billion if they have even $10 million in annual EBITDA. In other words, $10 million in positive cash flow. You wipe out X amount of that $3 billion in a reorganization. You say, well, they can't carry 3 billion, but maybe they could carry 1 billion. The Revelle in Atlantic City went through two processes like that. It cost $2.2 billion to open. It opened in 2012. It went bankrupt. They lowered the debt to about 800 million. Couldn't carry the 800 million, went bankrupt a second time. The reason the Revel, which was open two years, opened in 2012, closed in 2014. The reason the Revelle did not reopen. No positive cash flow. No positive ebitda. So if you don't have positive ebitda, it's very hard to continue the operation of a property. But I would imagine that. I know that this particular establishment has 80 to $100 million positive. So you could say, if Genting Berhad. Berhad wanted to get rid of this property and has $100 million in cash flow, an educated buyer would come in and just. We'll just use round numbers. And he would say, well, you know what? It's worth a billion dollars to me. It's worth 10 times EBITDA. Right. Some people try and value these properties at seven times. I've seen deals at 20. The Caesars 2007 deal was 20 times. I mean, it's all over the map. Getting back to Fontainebleau. If they even have 10 million in positive cash flow, it's not going to close. Even if they're even. It's not going to close. Even if they're slightly negative, it's not going to close because someone's going to. Well, someone's going to come in there and say, you know what? I could put the right people in here and I can turn it around.

[Podcast Host]

What about Circus Circus? Because there's been rumors of that one closing. He's.

[Paulie C]

He paid $800 million for that property. He has independent wealth. He's a billionaire. I don't know what his debt is on it, but he told the world he has $90 million in positive cash flow.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. A year.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. So he's got an 11% return going over.

[Podcast Host]

Circus Circus.

[Paulie C]

Circus Circus.

[Podcast Host]

They're making more than Resource World.

[Paulie C]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Paulie C]

Put that together before. I could put that together.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I didn't know that because they're. They're kind of like known on the cheaper side in Vegas. But I guess if you're making 90 mil, that's a lot.

[Paulie C]

I mean, that's what he says. He clears.

[Podcast Host]

He says tells are 20 a night there.

[Paulie C]

Well, he said. He said to the public in one of his last statements was, yeah, we have $2 shrimp cocktail. Yeah, we got $2 beers. But the public loves it, you know. So he rents all the rooms out. I don't think he has high operational costs there. I had an executive. I think the executive was joking with me, so. So don't take this as a fact.

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Paulie C]

And I didn't question the executive. He said, yeah, we spent 20,000 remodeling some of our rooms. He said, Circus Circus did a remodel. They spent 300 a room. I think. I think he was exaggerating.

[Podcast Host]

I'm not surprised.

[Paulie C]

But they did remodel.

[Podcast Host]

Have you stayed in one of those rooms?

[Paulie C]

I have been in them, you know. You know, the truth is they're not that bad.

[Podcast Host]

Compared to what. But if you compare that to Venetian Excalibur. Okay.

[Paulie C]

It's kind of similar.

[Podcast Host]

Excalibur. I'll give you the Luxor. Yeah, Luxor's not the best, you know.

[Paulie C]

I mean, you know, you pay for what you got. The rooms are Venetian palazzos. My homegirl. You know what I mean? I mean, I don't know what to even say about that. It was my home casino since 2019. The Wynn used to be my property, but it was too much.

[Podcast Host]

It's too expensive. Right.

[Paulie C]

Well, what happened was when I showed up at the Wynn in 2017, it's actually hard to tell this story and believe that it's true because things have changed so much since 2017. But this is a true story. And my casino host over there, unbelievable woman. I haven't seen her in years because I don't really play at the Wind anymore. Names Araceli. When I showed up there in 2017 at $30,000, Araceli sent a limo, a Rolls Royce limo. I had never even been in one before. They gave me a salon suite and my food. If you show up now with the win with $30,000, I mean, you basically can triple that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

So now you would have to be a hundred thousand dollar player minimally to get, you know, And I don't even know if they'll send the Rolls Royce. I don't think they would.

[Podcast Host]

For 100.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. Maybe 250. Yeah, maybe 250. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You should be.

[Paulie C]

Things have changed a lot in Vegas. So I had it. Once that happened, I said, let me find some place where I would fit in better. And it was definitely the Venetian Palau. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

If you were to win the jackpot tomorrow on slots, say you won, like, 5 million. I know you have a gambling addiction. Do you think you could quit gambling forever if you won that amount of money?

[Paulie C]

No way.

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Paulie C]

Well, whether I was broke or. Or had the money, I wouldn't quit.

[Podcast Host]

Even if you won 10 million?

[Paulie C]

Even if I had nothing, I'd scrape $20 together and play $5 blackjack.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Really?

[Paulie C]

Absolutely. Never stops.

[Podcast Host]

So even if you had.

[Paulie C]

Well, look, look, you're very deep, and I. And by the way, thank you very much for letting me meet and shake Gary Brecker's hand.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Paulie C]

You're very deep into Gary Brecker. Me too, because I found Gary Brecker after I had already done all the research that he talks about. So I was like, whoa, here's a guy who has the personality and the charisma to take all of this information and publicly put it out there, disclose it in a friendly, digestible way. And I was, like, blown away. So he'll say stuff like, if you have a child playing video games for 20 hours, he's child is 9 years old. That's not. You didn't cause that. Society didn't cause that. There's a deficiency there. So I've told this. You know, revisiting is probably the ninth time I talk about it. You know, as well, with this mutation, ccaatt, I don't produce neurotransmitters. Getting back to Gary Brecker, the deficiency for me is dopamine and Gary Brecker, and I've heard him say this, that deficiency is the root cause of all addiction. So he knows this. I mean, anybody who wants to even, you know, get any sort of information on this topic, just go back to your episodes with Gary Brecker on. On your podcast.

[Podcast Host]

Have you been able to find dopamine on other things outside of gambling, exercise?

[Paulie C]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Paulie C]

I did do other risky behaviors before. I was in a monogamous relationship, you know, but now I'm in a monogamous relationship, and it's totally worth it. You know, I tell guys, you know, a lot of guys that have this deficiency with the gambling, they also participate in risky behaviors. You know, we'll just keep it under that umbrella. And I tell them, you know, there's a world on the other side of the mountain that's really amazing. Nice. You know, so I'm in this deep monogamous relationship. So what happened when I had to give up risky behaviors is gambling became more important, but by the grace of God, and my gratitude is off the charts by the grace of God. There's so much dopamine in social media. There is a lot.

[Podcast Host]

So when you get a comment a like.

[Paulie C]

Well, I interact, you know, if I put something up and it's got 150, 200,000 views, I'll have 3, 400 comments. I'm able to go in there and really talk it out with people.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

And a lot of times I learn stuff. And a lot of times there's really funny comments in there. And I find myself one out of every 10 videos, I'll see something that's just a comment that's so hilarious. And I write right under the person, I say, you won the thread, you know, with that comment.

[Podcast Host]

That's cool. Yeah.

[Paulie C]

And so the interaction with the people that follow me in the comments. I just did New York. I did the Hard Rock in New York.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

And I had met Joe Lupo, who's the president of the Hard Rock. I waited. Listen, I'm the only guy that's going to tell you what a desperado I am. And I was saying two years, but that's an exaggeration. I waited a year and a half to get that DM from Joe Lupo. Not because I thought he would DM me, not because he should DM me, but because I was dreaming of him DMing me. Because I know the corporation. I know how powerful they are. I know they're the future of gaming. I know what they've got over there. So I got a DM from him one day. And, you know, my girlfriend can tell you I was high for a week, just walking around like, oh, my God, I'm finally getting it into the Mirage. And they did. They brought me in.

[Podcast Host]

I love it.

[Paulie C]

And they brought me up in the construction, and they took me up to the top, which was the 18th floor. And some of the great things in my journey are this. And these are small, great moments for me. And I don't know how many other people are going to get it, but I'm talking to Joe Lupo. And I very recently met Stephanie, who's the daughter of a throste in the movie Casino. So his name in real life is Frank Lefty Rosenthal. And her name in real life is Stephanie Rosenthal. And I met her about three or four months ago, and I did a couple of videos with her. But anyway, her father and interesting, in other words, all of this is coming together. This is where the Stardust originally sat, and her dad. And you can see this in the movie Casino was the first person who brought sports books into the casino. So he brought the sports book into the Stardust. And Frank Lefty Rosenthal ran the sports book at the Stardust. So I say to Joe Lupo, I say, great guy, by the way. Great guy. Perfect guy for the. For this property. Perfect guy for Las Vegas. I say to Joe Lupo, I say, tell me about your career. Because when I meet someone who's at the very pinnacle of Las Vegas, one of the first things I want to know is, where did they start? What were their different jobs? And it's fascinating because a lot of these guys that are at the top now started in jobs where they were not at the top. Like, for instance, Patrick McNichols. Yeah. The president of the Venetian Palazzo. He was an accountant at the Cosmopolitan. I mean, how I get a little emotional. I apologize. How effing Talented is Patrick McNichols to go from being an accountant at the Cosmo to being president of the Venetian Palazzo, you know, and he was chosen for that rule, but for that role by Apollo Group. So tying it all back together, I know I go too far afield. I say to Joe Lupo, what was your career? Joe Lupo was the director of the sports book at the. Well, eventually, it was still the Stardust when he was there, was also the director of the sportsbook at The Stardust, roughly 25 years after Frank Lefty Rosenthal did.

[Podcast Host]

Whoa.

[Paulie C]

So I'm caveling all over Stephanie about her dad, and then I meet Joe Lupo weekly. I'm like, God, I'm like, do you realize you had the exact same job as Ace Rothstein from Casino? And of course he knew. He did.

[Podcast Host]

That's one of my favorite movies.

[Paulie C]

Right. But isn't that funny that that was Joe Lupo, One of Joe Lupo's stops in his career up the ladder. And he's a UNLV gu. And he's not a Nepo baby. And he didn't have connections, and it's all talent.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You think the mobs fully ran out of Vegas? You'd be the right person to know.

[Paulie C]

I mean, you know, the. The card game, they're still. I'm pretty certain they're still in the card game. You know, the. The. You know, the card clackers on the. On the Strip.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, those. Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. I say, I think they're still. You know, there's things that they're involved in. I mean, do I want to get whacked tomorrow? You know, not really. I mean, I could probably go on a little bit about this, but I've.

[Podcast Host]

Heard some stories, you know, I'VE heard a lot.

[Paulie C]

I think the car clacking business. I think if you get onto the corner with your car clacking, I think that you might be stopped.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, I've talked to a lot of locals here that have been here for a while, and they actually said they like the casinos when the mobs were running them.

[Paulie C]

Well, a guy like me doesn't, because I'd be dead. You know, I defaulted on half a million dollars in markers in 1995, and the mob wasn't involved. If I had defaulted on half a million dollars in markers in 1975, you know, they would have sent, you know, the Aunt Spilotro to my house, especially if I lived in, like, Cleveland or Kansas City or Chicago someplace that he was going back and forth to wherever. And, you know, they probably would have broken my legs.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Paulie C]

You know, instead, they just threatened me with a sharp. So for me, it wouldn't have been good. And then my big mouth, you know, they would have put me in a hole in you. They would have dated you.

[Podcast Host]

There were some bodies coming out of Lake Mead.

[Paulie C]

Yeah. They found two or three of them. I mean, for me, it wouldn't have been. I understand why people say that. You know, you have to understand something about the mob, the Mafia, Italian culture, because I am half Italian. The Italian culture lends itself perfectly to the casino industry, but not for the reasons that you think. The reason The Italian culture lends itself perfectly to the casino industry is because Italians, by their very nature are feeding you Nona's sauce on Sunday. They're saying, come on in, get some brajol. Shout out to Johnny Serizani. People that have an inside joke on that, they know exactly what I'm talking about. Come in, have some meatballs. Come in, have some spaghetti. Their grandmothers were all about the hospitality on Sunday, you know, when they were little kids, when they were growing up. So when they came out to Vegas and when you're involved in gaming and you love gaming, and I'm half Italian, I feel this in my blood. I've had people on my show now. I was. I'm not associated with any casino hotels right now. I hope to be soon. I've had people that have done videos from me, and I've actually comped them out of my pocket like they've done. Yeah. So it's just something that's in our blood. So I'm, like, paying money. I'm like, here's. Here's $200. Go get dinner at. I mean, I remember one specifically. I Felt so bad for these people. They lost $2,500 playing on my show, and they were just strangers that popped in out of nowhere. So I've taken money out of my pocket. But if you're Italian and you understand that hospitality and, you know, the gaming is in our blood, you know, people. This, of course, is totally subjective, but the states with the two highest amount of sports gambling are New York and New Jersey. Why? They're also the states with the highest percentage of Italian descendants, including me. My whole family on my father's side, they were hanging out at the OTB from the time I was a little kid. So we're gamblers by nature, and we're hospitable. So it made sense that the mob and the mafia was out here in the 60s 70s days. Very easy to say, hey, you know, you want to have a shrimp dinner? Come have some. Have some shrimp. Have the fra diavolo, have the muscles marinara. It's unbelievable. Like, when I do that, it's so natural for me. So it really makes sense.

[Podcast Host]

Now, I know you don't talk about sports betting too much, but what did you think of the mob being involved with that NBA betting scandal?

[Paulie C]

Well, I mean, that goes back to the 50s, and they were doing that in City College in Manhattan in the 1950s, 1960s. In fact. In the 1974 movie the Gambler with James Caan, one of the players on the team, he actually convinces the player. That's a great movie, by the way. You should see. It's 1974. He's actually a professor who's a compulsive gambler, and he convinces one of the players to throw one of the games and to shave some points in that. And that's based on the City College scandal. And it's just very, very easy. Way easier before the nil deal, you know. Now college athletes get a lot of money.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

The most shocking part of it to me is, although it shouldn't be shocking to me because I'm an addict, but the most shocking part of it to me is the baseball player who's, you know, somebody pointed out to me someone who's very smart who calls me up with all sorts of incredible information. He says to me, paul, that. That baseball player who just got in trouble has four years. He has the same career track as Mariano Rivera, you know, the greatest closer of all time. And I'm like. And I put that in the video, and I'm like, wow, this guy was making $24 million, I think, over six years or four years. He hadn't come to free agency yet. His name escapes me immediately.

[Podcast Host]

Sotani or someone else?

[Paulie C]

No, it's the picture on the Cleveland Guardians. There were two pictures on the Cleveland Guardians.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't see that one.

[Paulie C]

If we had a screen here, somebody, the producer would look it up for us.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Ohtani was another big one, though.

[Paulie C]

Yeah, but Ohtani wasn't directly implicated.

[Podcast Host]

Well, his.

[Paulie C]

These guys threw pitches in the dirt.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, got it.

[Paulie C]

And they got arrested. Okay, so they're. They're allegedly. You know, they threw the pitches in the dirt. They've been indicted, They've been arrested. One of them has a closing career. He's a closer for the Cleveland Guardians. He has a career that. That mimics Mariano Rivera, the greatest. So to me, it's shocking. I understand the. They call them D players, right? The D. The D league. I understand the D League player. I understand Jonte. I do. He's making, what, $400,000 a year if he can clear. I asked somebody that used to work at DraftKings, what would. The bet was over there on that under? And he told me $100,000. I just got that information the other day. If he can make $100,000 or him and his friends can make $100,000 on an under bet, I get it. But a baseball player who's probably going to sign a $20 million a year contract because they're some of the greatest. They have some of the greatest stats in the closing, as a closer in.

[Podcast Host]

Major League Baseball, that must be an addiction thing. And backshot, Right? Because it's not. It's not money at that point. They're already making a ton of money. It's got to be some sort of addiction or mental thing, right?

[Paulie C]

So the story with the closer, he's from the Dominican Republic, and his friends in the Dominican Republic bet $460,000 on these bets. This is what I read. He's young. He's 27 years old. I think it's. In his case, I don't think it's addiction. And my heart breaks for him. I know that a lot of people are gonna think that that's BS But I've been young, and I've been under peer pressure, and I've been a gambler. And, you know, when I look at him and what he did, I say, there for the grace of God go I. He has his friends back in the. His friends are probably saying to him, oh, come on, come on. They're probably working on him night and day. Just throw a few Pitches in the dirt. Come on, you're set. You got it, mate. You can imagine what he's hearing, right? And maybe he, he gave into that peer pressure and now he'll never pitch in the major leagues again. Wow, that's effing heartbreaking for a 27 year old.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's.

[Paulie C]

I mean, I don't know how. You look like a young guy. Yeah, I was going to say you look like a young kid. So as a young kid, as a 22, 23 year old, before you, you know, before you blew up as Sean Kelly.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

Couldn't you see yourself getting involved in something crazy like that? Maybe.

[Podcast Host]

I was very susceptible to peer pressure when I was younger, Right. I wanted to fit in.

[Paulie C]

Right. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

So that was my insecurity. So I would do stuff that I didn't want to do.

[Paulie C]

Right. So that guy probably was giving it to peer pressure. I don't think it's an addiction thing and it's all of these guys. Look, when I think about Jonte, when I think about the closes for the Cleveland guardians, when I think about the other NBA players, whoever it is, you know, 20 something years old and I'm an old man already. I'm six, going to be 61 next week. When I think about that, they cast the die on a horrible outcome for the rest of their life by making one or two stupid decisions or getting associated wanting to be, you know, it breaks my heart, my heart breaks for them. And I said this on a previous podcast with you and I'll stand by it. With my problem with my deficiency CCAATT and my addictions and my childhood, you know, and I'm not virtue signaling. If I had grown up in an area that was really shitty, I'd be either dead or in jail. But because I grew up in a privileged area, I became the, you know, I'm the clown, I'm the court jester, I'm the community. I'm the guy who's always broke. I'm the guy. Oh my God. Can you believe this is what my friends were saying in 1995? Can you believe Paul and Bruce sold that company and Paul got a million dollars cash and this idiot is broke 10 months later, you know what I mean? So I was always like sort of the clown the story, you know, can you believe? But I never, I always had people to go to for support. I always had people that had economic opportunities. So I got a lot of. And I was able to stay out of like serious trouble. I mean, when I was a kid, we did Stupid things to support, to support our gambling. But we didn't end up in a, in a, in a pit over it. You know, if you are, if you're playing dice and this is a story, I'm just making up. But I know this, you know, and I know this from. I mean, I know it was an offset. Who got shot, but who got shot out of the three. The three guys. Super talented rappers take off or one of them, dude. Three super talented rap amigos. Oh my God, they're awesome, right? So you know, some of their songs, the most verbiage I've ever seen is in their songs. You know, it goes for like seven minutes of them just rapping. He was playing dice. Playing dice. And he got shot.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Paulie C]

So when we were kids, if we got caught cheating at dice and I didn't have access to any loaded dice or believe me, I would have gotten caught cheating at dice, you know, we didn't get shot. Our friends would, would shun us, you know, for a month or two. You know, it's just, it's just the community that I lived in. You got shunned or you got made fun of or. But. But nobody had any weapons. You think about a 16 year old, right, Pulled out that weapon and shot. Was it offset or takeoff? I think it was takeoff, yeah. Shot. And now he's dead. So I have a lot of gratitude for growing up in a good area and being able to avoid that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Did you gamble with Sarasoti this week? I know he was in town. Did you get get to the tables with him?

[Paulie C]

Let me tell you something. Johnny Serizani, he's the stud. He's the stud of everybody that's doing this. I have so much respect for him. I always tell this to everybody. I'll say it a million times over. If there were 10,000 John Cerazani's, we could turn Vegas back into Vegas 1980. Vegas 1980. Because the energy, the Italian ness, you know, I really, you know, the first time I met him, there's two people that I met in Las Vegas who both looked at me like, oh my God, is this guy going to, you know, is this guy going to be an asshole? What's this guy going to do? Vital Vegas and Johnny Serizani. When I met both of them, they both looked at me with trepidation, you know, that look like, oh, what's this guy going to? And I was like, the first time I met Johnny Serizani and also Vital Vegas, because I love him. I think he's super talented. Great writer, you know, really dedicated to his craft. Knows more than anybody about Las Vegas. The first time I met both of them, I was like, guys, I'm huge fans. Like, I'm a huge fan of Johnny Serizani because he's got that energy and he's got. And, you know, even though he's a big, tall, great looking hunk of a man, he has a certain humility about him, a certain sensitivity.

[Podcast Host]

He's the man.

[Paulie C]

And I love that.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Paulie, it was great seeing you, man. I'll see you at F1 tonight, okay?

[Paulie C]

Did I go an hour?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that was about 40 minutes.

[Paulie C]

Sorry about that.

[Podcast Host]

No, you're good, man.

[Paulie C]

You.

[Podcast Host]

I'll see you tonight.

[Paulie C]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

See you guys.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you.