What’s Really Happening Behind Closed Doors... | Matt Parker | DSH #1907

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Ep. 1907: What’s Really Happening Behind Closed Doors... | Matt Parker

Guest: Matt Parker (Founder, The Exodus Road)
Host: Sean Kelly
Date: April 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping and eye-opening episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Matt Parker, founder of The Exodus Road, to unpack the disturbing realities of modern human trafficking. Matt shares his frontline experiences from undercover operations in Asia, exposes the evolving tactics of traffickers — particularly in the digital age — and highlights how technology both abets and combats exploitation. From stories of heartbreak to reasons for hope, this episode challenges listeners to confront uncomfortable truths, recognize the scale of the issue, and consider concrete ways to protect themselves and their communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature and Scope of Human Trafficking

• Definition: Encompasses forced labor, sexual exploitation, sextortion, and forced criminality.
• Scale: Estimated 50 million modern-day slaves worldwide, a dramatic increase from 27 million a decade ago.

  “It’s an overwhelming number. And that’s an estimated number based on…data we can collect. But human trafficking in general is a difficult crime to measure.” – Matt Parker [02:47]

2. The Digital Age: Shifting Tactics and New Dangers

• Online Enticement: Social platforms and online games are hotbeds for trafficking recruitment and sextortion scams.
• Sextortion Explained: Perpetrators groom children online (e.g., via games like Fortnite) and extort them for photos, often escalating to monetary blackmail or further exploitation.

  “Young people are very trusting at times because they think, well, they can’t harm me. Right? But they’re lured into a relationship under false pretense… that could lead to something like sextortion, which is on the rise here in the United States.” – Matt Parker [02:09]

• Technology Utilized by Criminals:
  • Cryptocurrency enables anonymity in funds transfers.
  • AI and voice modification deepen deception.
  • Sophisticated scams leverage fake investment platforms and romance schemes.
• Rise of Forced Criminality: Many online scammers themselves are trafficking victims, forced to work in “scamming compounds” across Asia and Africa.
• International Reach: Perpetrators often operate from outside the US, exploiting both children and vulnerable adults for profit.

3. Realities from the Frontlines

• Undercover Stories:
  • Matt’s first undercover mission in Thailand’s red light district:

    “Women on a stage with a number on their chest, and they’re dancing… they did not want to be there… I have never heard a woman… say ‘yes, I like working here’.” [22:13]

  • Exploitation is hidden behind a façade of choice or legality (e.g., brothels, massage parlors, red light districts) but often built on violence, coercion, or desperation.
  • Victims are often isolated, controlled, and threatened with harm to themselves or loved ones.
• The Journey into Trafficking: Includes poverty-driven migration, fake job offers, and the rewriting of destinies by organized crime.
• Vulnerability Factors: Economic desperation, lack of support systems, and weak or complicit law enforcement.

4. Technology as a Tool for Justice

• Digital Forensics / Cellebrite:
  • Matt began using digital forensics tools to extract evidence from trafficker devices, enabling large-scale takedowns.

    “With one police checkpoint and arrest and those phones, we uncovered the largest human trafficking syndicate in Thailand’s modern history… rescued over 400 Rohingya people… arrested 50 corrupt government officials.” [37:48]

  • Digital evidence is “unbiased” and often the key to prosecutions, especially when victims are too traumatized or threatened to testify.

5. The Psychological Dimension

• Longing for Intimacy and Community: Traffickers prey on universal human desires for connection, especially among children and teens who increasingly form relationships online.
• Mental "Chains": Control is often psychological rather than physical, leveraging fear, shame, and isolation.

6. Challenges in Combating the Crime

• Law Enforcement Gaps: Agencies are underfunded, understaffed, and undertrained; criminals innovate faster than legislation can adapt.
• Legislative Lag: Laws have not caught up with tech — e.g., prosecuting AI-generated child abuse material or deepfake extortion is a legal grey area.

7. Prevention, Safety, and Empowerment

• Exodus Road Initiatives:
  • Aftercare and Rehabilitation for rescued victims.
  • Digital Safety Training (Influenced.org): Empowers teens and parents to recognize and resist online lures, and respond if victimized.
• Advice for Parents:
  • Don’t ban social media outright; instead, teach critical thinking, digital self-defense, and open communication.
  • Equip kids to discern predatory behavior, recognize risks, and seek help if something goes wrong.

  “It’s my responsibility to bridge the gap. It’s not my kids’ responsibility to tell me about the vulnerabilities of their world. It’s my job as a dad to figure that out.” – Matt Parker [42:00]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Realities in Brothels:

  “We talk about how human trafficking turns people into commodities. They were canned goods on a shelf. You just chose the one you wanted, and you could abuse them.”
  – Matt Parker [22:13]

• On Complicity and Corruption:

  “Oftentimes, in other parts of the world, law enforcement can be complicit… and are protecting these environments for a bribe.”
  – Matt Parker [33:10]

• On the Spread of Exploitation:

  “There is this narrative… that this problem is over there somewhere, it’s in Asia. But I’m telling you, it is reaching into and across our borders and impacting our children.”
  – Matt Parker [23:57]

• Technology as a Double-Edged Sword:

  “The speed of technology is faster than the speed of legislation. And we are just chasing this crime type, and it’s growing.”
  – Matt Parker [23:56]

• The Need for Digital Safety:

  “The message really isn’t ‘you can’t have social media.’ It’s: How do you remain safe while on social media? How do you understand to recognize predatorial behavior?”
  – Matt Parker [44:04]

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Important Timestamps

• Online Gaming & Sextortion Trends: [01:45]–[05:15]
• Forced Criminality and International Scams: [05:15]–[08:56]
• Victims’ Vulnerability & Undercover Timeline: [10:22]–[16:14]
• First Undercover Operation – Thailand: [20:27]–[24:00]
• Red Light Districts, Brothel Realities: [21:41]–[23:57]
• Complicity of Law Enforcement: [32:49]–[34:00]
• Cellebrite Forensics & Takedown Case: [34:52]–[38:06]
• Legislation Lag v. Technology: [39:31]–[41:06]
• Parental Guidance and Digital Safety: [41:27]–[45:37]
• Risks of Nude Images and Account Hacking: [45:49]–[47:28]

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Key Resources & Calls to Action

• Learn More / Support:
  • theexodusroad.com – To support rescue and rehabilitation operations.
  • influenced.org – For the digital safety training Matt discussed.

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Final Thoughts

This episode leaves listeners with a sobering look at global human trafficking and exploitation in the era of omnipresent digital technology. Matt Parker’s stories highlight both the scale of the problem and the possibilities of intervention, awareness, and support. He urges parents, communities, and individuals to “equip themselves and defend themselves in a world that is really not safe for children,” emphasizing hope, responsibility, and the vital need for action.

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For more information or to implement digital safety in your home and community, visit Exodux Road and Influenced.org.

Transcript

[A]

Went undercover for the first time 2011. Bright neon lights. Tourists from all around the world are there to buy people. And there's traffickers on each corner of an alleyway and they have pornography positions or child sexual placement. They're selling it all.

[B]

Okay, guys, Matt Parker in studio today from Exodus Road. Thanks for your time, man. I know you're busy.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for bringing me in.

[B]

Yeah, you just spoke at an event. Right. In Vegas. So it worked out.

[A]

Yeah, it was great.

[B]

I'm sure you're off to another country soon.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of travel, but enjoy what I do.

[B]

Nice. For those that don't know what. I got a younger audience, so they might not know you, but Exodus Road, what is that about?

[A]

Yeah, we're a global nonprofit fighting human trafficking. And we do several things. We partner with law enforcement to identify victims of human trafficking and advocate for police action. You know, that's really the genesis of what we began to do and it's evolved over the years. And now we have Aftercare shelter where we care for victims that are coming out of human trafficking, help them, you know, find healing through counseling services, and then help them find work, which is a big component of their freedom. And then we're in school systems with awareness, talking about digital safety and how to avoid exploitive situations all around the world.

[B]

So that's the main way they're being targeted now, through the digital world?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, it's. It's really unfortunate to see how the world has opened up to criminals through social media and digital platforms. Even things like cryptocurrency, being leveraged to remain anonymous while they exploit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vulnerable people.

[B]

Yeah, it is pretty nuts. I play Fortnite, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And like there's a mode called Delulu. I don't know if you heard, I'm

[A]

not that familiar with.

[B]

Basically like voice chat is open world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I hear kids all the time, just like 6, 7, 8 year old kids talking on voice chat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're talking to adults.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's normal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Crazy. Right?

[A]

One of the things that, that we did with the non profit this year, this will last couple years, is we've rolled out a digital safety training called Influenced and it addresses this, this exact vulnerability of young people in the online space interfacing with strangers. Right. In the end. And with voice modification, an old man can sound like a young man or a young woman. And so young people are very trusting at times because they kind of think, well, they can't harm me. Right. But they're lured into a relationship under false pretense, and eventually that could lead to something like sextortion, which is on the rise here in the United States. States.

[B]

Sextortion?

[A]

Yeah, extortion. You know, when we talk about human trafficking, and this is Human Trafficking Awareness Month, so I appreciate you having me on to talk about this issue in particular. You know, we have 50 million modern day slaves today. It's an overwhelming number. And that's an estimated number based on. On data, the data we can collect. But human trafficking in general is a difficult crime to measure because victims of human trafficking are always raising their hand like, please count me in the census. And so we have law enforcement data from, you know, arrests and interdiction that takes place, and we have these estimates and algorithms that kind of say, hey, we think there's an estimate of 50 million.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But sextortion touches human trafficking in that we have, especially in the United States, young people online, you know, playing Fortnite, living their life, and they're engaging with people in chat rooms or forums. And what happens often is those relationships are perpetrated by someone who's trying to get money or nudes from children. And it starts off quite innocently. Oftentimes the relationship will say, hey, if you send me a photo of yourself, I'll give you some diamonds or some currency that was within the game.

[B]

V bucks.

[A]

And it starts off not necessarily as a nude, but just a photograph. But it progresses. And eventually that child, the unsuspecting victim, would say, hey, you know, please don't share that photo. And then the relationship changes and the veil comes off. And the perpetrator said, I'm going to share that image with your mom or your friends on Facebook or your school community. And a lot of these perpetrators have done a lot of homework on that child's community and their name dropping.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so the child is terrified. They're not equipped to handle that. Right. And unfortunately, it's led to a lot of teen suicide here in the United States.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

And some of our more recent investigations have uncovered that a lot of the perpetrators aren't even within our country. They're from Nigeria or Myanmar. These are targeted attacks on the United States teenagers.

[B]

Is it because in their currency they can make a lot more basically targeting Americans?

[A]

Well, it's an interesting development. A lot of the perpetration is actually caused by someone who's been trafficked and is under duress. It's called forced criminality. So right now, one of the largest human trafficking situations in the world is coming from scamming compounds is what we call them. And they, there's many of them in Myanmar. There's some in Cambodia and the Philippines. There's some in Africa, parts of Africa. And what happens is a mafia group, you know, and in Asia, the Chinese mafia, they will recruit young 20something IT professionals for a job. Right. And so it looks like labor migration, young people, like, yeah, I get to travel for work. And they arrive into Bangkok under the promise of work. And then they're driven across the border into Myanmar. Wow. And they're held in a factory basically where they're forced to scam or sex store teenagers or people here in the United States.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

So I don't know if you've gotten some of those texts. I get them once a month or every other week, you know, somebody pretending to know you and then you, you know, most of us are like, hey, I'm sorry, you have the wrong number. That is, that is probably a trafficked victim in a foreign country who's being forced to send you that text. And their goal is one of two things to. Or three things. A romance scheme. You know, so they're preying on vulnerable people who may really desire relationship. And they're kind of trafficking intimacy, Right. They're like, hey, have a relationship with me. And they'll send you a fake photo, even fake videos to make you think it's a beautiful woman. And then you enter into this relationship. Or they invite you into a cryptocurrency investment scheme. And it sounds and looks so real. In these compounds. They have very sophisticated but fake investment platforms that look legitimate.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they are convincing, typically retirees, but others in the United States to empty their savings, to gamble like we do here in Vegas. Right. Like, hey, I'm going to make you rich. And people fall for that and it's not real. And as soon as they've emptied their savings, that veil comes down. Or the third thing is sextortion, right? What we've already kind of mentioned, convincing children to send a nude. And then as soon as they do that, they demand money or more nudes. And, and in that regard, there's two things that are happening. They're either extorting fund funds out of children or generating CSAMP child sexual abuse material that they will then sell or trade.

[B]

Wow. So there's a whole market for just child nudes.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's major. In fact, it's. It's one of the crime types that the United States law enforcement are really focused on. Globally, we're Focusing on that. The national center for Missing and Exploited Children is really at the center of that fight. You know, Celebrite, the company that I work for now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The global brand ambassador, we have tools that expedite the investigation of csam. And so in this way, you have all these layers to child exploitation taking place and human trafficking. And unfortunately, the teenagers that are victims of. Of this type of sextortion crime, they're. They're committing suicide.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And, you know, they don't have those skills. They typically don't have what they consider to be a safe place to. To say, look, I'm in trouble. I sent a nude. Right. And now that's going to go to my entire community. And so at the Exodus Road, we have that digital safety training called Influence. It's for parents of teenagers and for teenagers, how do you protect yourself and your friends against this type of perpetration? And then on the other side of the planet, we have perpetrators who are forced to do it, who've been trafficked, and if they don't meet their quotas through, you know, extorting money out of children or adults, then they're beaten. And we have rescued several of those victims who have been trapped in those compounds, and we've worked with Interpol and Homeland Security on those cases.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

It is. It's an overwhelming problem that we're dealing with. But you, you might just think, oh, I just got the wrong text from someone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, but it, it really all, I think, boils into this concept that our culture and society, we long for intimacy. We want friendships, we want. We want to be loved. Unfortunately, a lot of our relationships, maybe. Fortunately or unfortunately, they're digital relationships these days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we're not. We're not really looking at each other eye to eye in a bar to get to know each other. It's all digital, which creates this opportunity for deception to vulnerable people. And we're all vulnerable in that regard. We all want relationship. Right. And we turn. We tend to turn online easier.

[B]

I know I did. When I was a kid, I turned to the Internet because I had a lot of trouble making friends in real life. Growing up, you know, always felt a little different. But on the Internet, you could kind of find your niche no matter how small or large.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

There's all sorts of communities.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. You mentioned Asia earlier. I know you spent a lot of time over there undercover, right?

[A]

I did, yeah. That. That was, you know, kind of my genesis story of coming face to face with the problem of human Trafficking, which, which to be honest, I didn't, didn't know much about at the time. I was with my wife and my kids running a children's home in the north of Thailand. That's what we had moved to Thailand to do, was to care for vulnerable people. And my wife and I have just always had a heart for the global poor and we've always wanted to help. And I found myself with my family in northern Thailand caring for 48 young girls in a children's home. And it was during that time of trying to understand what are the needs that these young women have and why did they end up in this situation where they needed to come and live in a children's home. Some of them were orphaned and some of them just had maybe one parent living. And there was incredible poverty that was driving some of that decision to take care of them. So I drove to their villages and interviewed the village chiefs. And it was a really cool experience for me as chickens running around thatched roofs in the middle of the jungle and, and every village leader as I would interview them and say, hey, you know, tell me about girls that end up working in a large cities south of here. How does that happen? And what was happening and is explained to me. Men in trucks would show up to their village and offer jobs that sounded legitimate, but only to the pretty girls. And they have this saying in the village that there are no pretty girls in the village. And these are minority groups, Lisu Lahu, AKA Hmong. And they're mostly rice farmers, agricultural. And so if the monsoon comes through and wipes out their crop, they're facing extreme hunger and poverty and they've got kids to care for. And so when a guy drives up in a truck and offers a great job to your daughter, you kind of feel like, oh man, this is a great opportunity. And they put him in that truck. And then they never see their daughter again in often cases. And they drive them to a large city and they force them into slavery, you know, sex slavery. And that's called human trafficking. Human trafficking. It looks like so many different things. And what I'm describing is a pretty extreme form of it, but a lot of it mirrors this idea of labor migration. You know, this young girl or boy is offered a job, it's a town away or a country away or a long bus ride away, and they arrive at that destination for the job and all of a sudden the terms of employment change. The trafficker says, well, hey, now you owe me for that bus ride or the plane ticket or some terms that were previously agreed upon. Change. I've even met women who have said, look, I knew I was going to come to this country and do sex work, but I was promised it would be with executives, wealthy men in nice hotels. And turns out none of that was true. I have to walk the street and go with whomever. And so they change the terms. Well, that's human trafficking. But you look at it from the outside in and from a law enforcement perspective or civilian perspective, and it looks like, oh, yeah, she's on that street corner because she wants to be there. Well, not exactly, but that's not exactly what's going on here. That woman I was describing, she was actually from Uganda.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

And she was missing a tooth when I had met her. And you know, I had heard rumors of Ugandan women being trafficked into Bangkok. And you know, I was deputized by the Tyrola police. And I'll share a bit more about that too. But, but in this case, I had sat down with her and she said she was from Tanzania. And I had talked with her about, you know, how long she'd been in the country and tried to understand her situation. And eventually she says, matt, I've been lying to you this whole time. I'm from Uganda. The reason I lied to you is that the syndicate who's controlling me will send men sometimes that look just like you to ask me the exact questions you're asking me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And if. And I, I told the truth once before and they knocked my tooth out.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And so, so much of the, the force, fraud and coercion that goes on with these vulnerable people, it. It's a mental game of violence.

[B]

It's like a mental prison.

[A]

It is. And you know, a lot of times when you think about human trafficking, like, oh, people are tied to, there's ropes and chains involved. And those are great images, but the truth is you don't really need ropes and chains. You just need to threaten a victim's sister or mom if they're non compliant or the, or the victim next to each other. You know, I was undercover just a few months ago and you know, I was asking one of the victims, hey, do you have any friends here? That's one of the questions I tend to ask these days. And she's like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't have any friends here. There's some mechanism of isolation and control that these women that look like knowing and willing participants maybe in the sex trade have things happening in the background. Most people don't know about and no one's asking about. So when I started to understand what was happening in the northern villages of Thailand, I met with the Thai royal police. And I'm like, look, I, I just want to help, you know, how can I help? And they wanted me to do some research for them and try to understand where people are bought and sold. You know, 50 million modern day slaves is an overwhelming number. When I first started this, the estimation was 27 million. So this is a, this is getting worse, right? But the police that I worked with were like, look, help us identify, you know, where the border crossings are, where, where people are being traded or, or illegally smuggled in and where are the brothels and where are the dark alleys. And so I set about researching that for them. And it all built up to a singular moment where I had received a phone call in, you know, from a non profit partner of mine. And they were like, matt, there's a child being sold, you know, down this red light district. We've met with her. Can you tell the police? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And so I told the police what the tip, you know, like, hey, there's a victim of trafficking in this area. Can we go get her? And the police looked at me and said, matt, we don't know this person who gave you that information. And I'd been working with them for about a year. I was pretty close with this unit. They said, but if you would go and verify it, we trust you. You know, this is something we would act on. And really the whole, my whole life changed because I went to my wife Laura, and I'm like, hey, babe. I never really anticipated going undercover to verify a child was for sale. Police are asking if I would do it. What do you think? And I knew early on I really wanted her. If I were to do something like that, I'd want her buy in. Because I've never been in a brothel before. I'm married, we have kids. You know, brothels typically aren't where married men should be, anyone should be. And she said something that was really powerful. She said, matt, what if this were our kids? We had three kids and we still have three kids, two daughters and a son. And what if this were one of them? And we knew it. We knew just enough to know. That there, that these girls were trafficked, lost to the darkness of a back alley, and that their parents had no recourse to find or free them. And if that were our kids, we would hope that someone would go on behalf of them to Advocate for their freedom so they could come home to us. And so I went undercover for the first time in 2011, and when I walked in to that brothel, you know, first off, if you guys could imagine with me a red light district. And I think most of us can imagine that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, there's parts of Vegas that feel like this, you know, bright neon lights. Tourists from all around the world are there to buy people for sex. And there's traffickers on each corner of an alleyway, and they have, you know, or sexual positions or child sexual abusement. They're selling it all. They're selling drugs. And they approach you, they grab your arm. They're trying to kind of be pushy. And girls. Girls are lined the alley, pulling on you. Hey, handsome man. They're calling out to you, trying to get you to come into their brothel. And these brothels have a black curtain in the doorway. And behind that black curtain is a totally different world than what's in the public eye. And so as you cross through that black curtain, you'll see women on a stage with a number on their chest, and they're dancing. Most of them are not good dancers. They're from the village or they're from an exploitive situation. They're just on the stage with these numbers on their chest. They're in a bikini. Maybe they're nude. And then the customers sit kind of around that stage, and they get to choose the number of the girl they want to have sex with.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that first undercover experience, I pull the trafficker close to me, and I'm trying, like, hey, I'm new. Explain this to me. You know, these girls have numbers. And he's like, oh, don't worry. I know you don't speak Thai. These girls don't speak English. That's why they have numbers. You just pick the number of the girl you want to have sex with. You can take her upstairs for 45 minutes. You can do whatever you want to her. Don't talk to her, and it's 45 bucks.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then she'll come back down, and she'll hop back on stage. And we, those of us in the nonprofit sector and who are fighting human trafficking, we talk about human trafficking turns people into commodities. And these young women were commodities. They were canned goods on a shelf. You just chose the one you wanted, and you could abuse them. And I think the other thing that really struck me in those first moments is their faces, their eyes. They felt they clearly did not want to be there. They did not want to be on that stage. They didn't fit the bill of like, a knowing and willing participant into the sex trade. And I think we convolute these things where human trafficking hides in the sex trade. Certainly there may be some women who are there knowing and willingly, and they're there by choice, and they have power to leave whenever they want. But that wasn't the story of these women. And I've been in over 2,000 brothels over the last 14 years undercover, and I have never heard a woman that I've asked, hey, do you like working here? No one has said yes.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And so I think there's this idea we have, I think, of legal prostitution, perhaps, and women's empowerment. And I'm. I'm all about women's empowerment if that's what they want.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I just have yet to meet somebody who's like, man, I love this job. I'm not saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying I've been in over 2,000 brothels.

[B]

That's a lot.

[A]

And I've held thousands and thousands of hands in places where women are really disempowered. So there is this narrative that I think in the west, we often have that this problem is over there somewhere, it's in Asia. But I'm telling you, it is reaching into and across our borders and impacting our children. It's impacting our. Our moms and dads who lose their retirement to a scamming operation in a foreign country. And then even within our own borders, we have perpetrators who are seeking out to abuse children. So it's a very challenging crime. And my experience over the last 14 years, I have seen that crime evolve faster than our legislation is able to keep up with. The speed of technology is faster than the speed of legislation. And we are just chasing this crime type, and it's growing. So awareness is really key. Having the skills to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones is really key. Law enforcement are typically underfunded, understaffed, under trained. They're doing the best they can with a small budget and personnel. And that's where celebrate comes in with technology, because it expedites the investigation process, comes up with evidence that is powerful through the judicial process. And that's why I love working with celebrite. And I've deployed their capabilities all around the world to find and free victims of trafficking.

[B]

That's incredible. So you could have operations all over because of celebrates?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's powerful. Have any of the girls ever blown your cover because they're so scared of like escaping or whatever, you know.

[A]

No, I, I can't really divulge all of our tactics, but I'm able to say that, that even the, the victims themselves don't know who my investigators are.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So the Exit road has over 100 staff globally. We're in six countries and we, we use aliases, I can say that. And you know, as we engage with victims, we are very careful to not victimize victims. We work in partnership with police, we're empowering them. Oftentimes police are embedded and undercover with us so that they can take the stand and testify. We'd rather not. In every successful case we do, we're giving law enforcement partners credit and in that way they get promoted and we get to stay safe.

[B]

Respect.

[A]

Right. And so we're arrested along with all the other criminals. And that's really the way to go about it. And so no one really knows. And we have enough investigators at the Exodus Road. I can rotate them in and out, different nationalities. And so we, we really don't want to have a heavy footprint. One individual going too many times in an establishment. And we hide amongst the thousand unfortunately of customers who are there who look and behave just like we do.

[B]

There's that many on a daily night there?

[A]

Oh yeah, the commercial red light districts. Thousands.

[B]

Wow. I've been to the, when I was young, I like walked through the one in the Amsterdam, the red light district. I don't know if you investigate that one, but yeah, there was a lot of people there.

[A]

Yeah. And it, you know, those, these are commercial red light districts and I call it, it's a case typology. So when we look at cases of, you know, what does human trafficking look like? It could certainly take place and look like a commercial red light district. Thankfully, those have gotten a little bit of focus. Countries and governments who are trying to clean up their reputation and not. Not be a sex tourist destination, but you know, have other natural tourist activities that are more family friendly. So trafficking could occur there and does. But it's also on in border towns. And I was thinking of it actually on the way over here today. It's interesting what we as, as society or global cultures are comfortable with. You know, red light districts or, you know, massage businesses here in the United States often have traffic victims in them. Really.

[B]

Massage business.

[A]

Wow. There's a, a big population of Chinese speaking masseuses who offer happy endings or sexual services in these massage places of illicit massage businesses or IMBs in the United States. And they're very Difficult to investigate because most, most of those cases require Chinese language proficiency. Proficiency. And they're here in the country technically, sometimes legally. And so you have to prove that they're doing these illicit things and you have an uncooperative witness and that becomes really challenging. That's where digital evidence is so important.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

That's where Cellebrite's capabilities are so important, because they'll take the stand when no one else will. Data doesn't really. It's unbiased, it's data. Did you call, you know, is this syndicate on this phone number attached to multiple escort ads? It is. Well, that's not an individual selling themselves. They're a part of a bigger network or, you know, an imb, illicit massage business. You know, are these, are these women allowed to, to leave the establishment? Are they forced to live and stay on site? You add in. So these digital witnesses is what we call them. They, they will testify to a narrative and story that's true and irrefutable and data cooperates. Wow. So it really makes for a powerful prosecution. And you can do that whether it's an illicit massage business or sextortion situation or other types of human trafficking. But apart from red light communities, it could look, you know, people are bought and sold just out of, you know, massage businesses or beer gardens. Border crossings right now, you know, this issue with Venezuela we're having.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For years undercover in Colombia, there's this wave of vulnerable women coming into Colombia desperate for money and trying to send work home. And they often shave their hair and sell their hair to make wigs right there on the border. Traffickers just wait there on the border for them and then they offer them jobs. And so you look at that situation. I think this is a great story. It's like if, if you were to drive by a homeless person in the United States and they have a cardboard sign and it says, I will work for food. You know, if that were genuinely true, you know, we should have an amount of compassion for that individual. Right. They're willing to work in exchange for money. Right. You know, what, what we would probably consider to be honorable work, you know, mowing the lawn or painting a fence. But if that sign said I will have sex with you for money or I will have sex with you for food, that really should hit us a little bit differently. But that is exactly what's happening. Vulnerable people are willing on behalf of their families and, and their children to say yes to an exploitive situation to survive. And that is happening at scale 50 million right this is a large problem, but the majority of us in society aren't equating what's taking place as a vulnerable thing. We should not allow young women to sell their bodies. We should be able, as a society, to care for them in a way where they get the choice perhaps, to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they don't have to do it to survive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in this way, it's easy to exploit them. Someone who's desperate and trying to survive, who's willing to sell their hair or kidney, you know, willing to cross a border and make a journey that's treacherous, to feed their families, that is oftentimes that vulnerability that leads them to take the job, that leads them to the brothel on a promise of wealth, or at least enough. And then once they're there, and I think the reason the Exodus Road exists as a nonprofit and the reason I do what I do is oftentimes no one's looking for them.

[B]

Yeah. Because like you said, they capture them from villages and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

These poor areas.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

So they can't. They can't even make a call, some of these people. Right.

[A]

Yeah. And. And even if they could make a call, and a lot of these women have phones, they're under an amount of duress. They've threatened to go get my sister if I actually call for help. And oftentimes, in other parts of the world, law enforcement can be complicit.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And are protecting these environments for a bribe.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so that's a whole nother level of complexity. And when you think about, hey, someone's child, and if it were my child, and they're trapped in this environment and somebody has to go and find them, and they have to advocate for their freedom and police action by navigating the corrupt environment that. That, this. That allows this whole thing to exist. It's. It's very complicated.

[B]

Yeah. Because some of these rings, I'd imagine the bigger ones, they're making a lot of money so they can afford to bribe people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's nothing to them.

[A]

Yeah. And they do try. And again, I feel like I'm continuing to champion the concept of digital forensics, but in 2015, we participated in one of the largest human trafficking takedowns in Thailand's modern history. And it was a rumored case like the Rohingya people from Myanmar were being persecuted. There's been genocide taking place there for 60 years. And you know what they were doing? These people groups were trying to escape, and they were paying human smugglers to load them onto ships and take them to Malaysia where they would be safe and they have family there. But these human smugglers turned human traffickers and made landfall on the Andaman coast of Thailand. And they were loading the Rohingya people with who were paying to get to Malaysia, loading them onto trucks and driving them into jungle holding camps. They were secret. You had to. They marched them into the jungle and would hold them there and ransom them to the fishing industry or ransom them to their families in Malaysia.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that was a human trafficking syndicate and it had been happening for years and years and it was rumored that that something was going on like that, but there was no evidence, nobody really knew how or when. And this was taking place for me in 2014. 13 somebody, one of my donors who was army Ranger called me up and said, matt, have you heard of Cellebrite? I'm like, no, Cellebrite, what is it? And he said, well, it's a digital forensics tool. We used it to fight terrorism in Afghanistan. I think it could help you fight trafficking. I'm like, I'm in. So he donated the device to me. It's called a U Fed, a universal forensics extraction device. And I looked at this thing, I'm like what, what am I going to do with this? So I called Celebrate and I told him what I was hoping to accomplish. And they were like, we're in, we want to help. And so they equipped me and I went to Thailand and right around that time I was equipped with Celebrate capabilities. And one of these trucks loaded full of Rohingya people encountered a road stop, a police checkpoint. And it was a canvas covered, military style, you know, truck. And the driver and passenger, that truck came up to the police stop and took off running.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And the cops were like, what is happening? So they, they chased him down and tackled these guys and, and then they uncovered the back of that truck. And there was 90 Rohingia traffic victims. Jeez. In the back, stuffed in the back. And one 16 year old boy had died from heat exhaustion.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because in Thailand's hot, it's tropical. They were on the way to these jungle holding camps. But the police were like, we don't know what this is, what is happening. Of course those driver and passenger aren't telling the truth. Well, they found six cell phones in the cab of that car. So they called me. Matt, we know you have Celebrate. Can you help us get into these phones? And that's what Celebrate does. It'll, it'll extract data off of a cell phone device and analyze that data. So really quickly you can figure out, hey, this criminal was regularly calling these five people and he was meeting up with them at this Starbucks and they were managing these victims through a chat group. And you can get that data off of a phone and analyze that, and it's powerful data. With that one police checkpoint and arrest and those phones, we uncovered the largest human trafficking syndicate in Thailand's modern history. It led to the rescue of over 400 Rohingya people that were held in these jungle holding camps. And unfortunately, if they couldn't ransom them, they executed them.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

So we found mass graves at these sites and we arrested 50 corrupt government officials.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Who were involved. And we took down the kingpin of the. The criminal syndicate.

[B]

That's insane. You got to make it that into a movie or something.

[A]

Oh, well, I mean, it. It for me because my, I feel like my expertise is mostly human intelligence. Going undercover, working with traffickers to get access to who they're selling. Work with the police. Well, this was the first time I'm like, holy cow. Digital forensics, it is a critical player in child safety. And the other issue there is children. It is difficult for anyone to take the stand in court and testify of your abuses. For sure. It is very challenging for a young child to do that. And so if we can make that easier by adding to the case, digital forensics, to say, look, there's a text thread between the perpetrator and the child where he's clearly asking for sex. He's clearly inciting, you know, sexual abuse. Or he asked for this nude and then he extorted her once he had that. If the phone will tell that story, that's pretty powerful and a step forward in child protection in my, in my mind. Wow. So, yeah, that, that kind of epiphany for me of if we are to be serious about making the largest impact we can to fight trafficking, we have to have advanced capabilities and support law enforcement in their efforts to fight this crime.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the world's evolving, Right. Especially with AI now.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I'm sure they're going to start using that to kidnap kids.

[A]

Yeah. Already they're. They're doing that. You know, I think maybe seven years ago, five years ago, we saw this huge tactic by criminals to leverage crypto.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Right. I mean, that's the, the anonymity crypto offers is well suited for criminal activity, unfortunately. And, and AI is just that next big move for criminals to adopt. Criminals are really quick to adopt new technology into their illicit business. So. Yes.

[B]

I mean, the videos are getting so good. Now the voice is almost one of one in my opinion now. Yeah, I think the voice is really hard to tell.

[A]

Well, and here in the United States, one of the things that came out a few years ago, it's still an issue is it's not really human trafficking related, but they perpetra pedophile. Sorry, they're generating child sexual abuse material that's AI built. And so, you know, a lot of legislators are like, well, how do we prosecute this? There's no really a victim, but it's indecent and there's some indecency laws maybe we can use. And so you have this. I mean it's kind of the wild, wild west right now. People are scrambling to figure out what is ethical and moral with AI, but certainly criminals, you know, pretending to be you, taking your identity, putting your head on someone else's body. All these complexities will have implication for years to come.

[B]

Yeah, but like you said earlier, the legislation can't keep up. So it's almost like we as people, as a community have to take it into our own hands. Right?

[A]

Yeah, that's very true. And I think that I, you know, I keep mentioning it, but it, it really speaks to the need for digital safety training. I like it. We put it this way. You know, I'm a child of the 80s, you know, best generation.

[B]

I love the 80s music and PI,

[A]

you know, all the great TV shows that my kids think are hilarious. I was a digital nomad. You know, I wasn't born with the Internet, I wasn't born with cell phones. You know, those things for me happened in college and I grew up with a rotary phone and my kids have never seen one. I don't think my kids are digital natives. They were, I mean they weren't technically, but they were kind of born with a cell phone in their hand and the way that they have friends and communities and relationships are online and that's just way different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than my childhood. So as it comes to my responsibility as a parent to protect my kids, there's this learning gap that I have to bridge. It's my responsibility to bridge the gap. It's not my kids responsibility to tell me about the vulnerabilities of their world. It's my job as a dad to figure that out. How can I guide them through that. And so that's where this digitalsafetytraining influence.org, that's the where we offer that it feels to us so critical. We have worked cases in the past where perpetrators have infiltrated school systems through Google Chat. Wow. And are interfacing with teenagers while they're in their classrooms.

[B]

What?

[A]

And having them go to the bathroom to take nudes and extorting them while they're on school property.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

So as you can imagine, it's like, look, you can lock down your home with VPNs and not let your kids be online past 9pm I mean, there's all these tactics and some of those may be good, but at some point they're going to leave your home and whatever safety you've built there, they need to take with them. They have to have these skills. And we as parents and we need to provide these skills. So that to me is kind of at the core of this. The crime is evolving so fast. We have to equip ourselves and defend ourselves in a world that is really not safe for children. Certainly not safe. How can we protect them? We have to equip them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because this was never taught when I was in school, but I feel like it's needed now because I think the criminals have caught on and they realize this is a massive audience they can attract, you know, for their nefarious reasons.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. It's tough, man. I don't know what the right solution is because, like, I know kids love social media these days and you, you telling them like, you can't have. That is. I'm sure that's a fun conversation.

[A]

Well, and, and that, you know, I think that's exactly the point. The, the message really isn't you can't have social media. It's how do you remain safe while on social media? How do you understand to recognize predatorial behavior? You know, who do you send a nude to? You know, it's probably not a good idea to send it to anybody if you're going to do it. Certainly you want to know them. That image, it's difficult for, for a young person, for any person, if that were to get leaked out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you handle that? These are skills that I never had to have in the 80s, you know. You know, even in the 80s, it was a magazine right behind the counter at the gas station. It wasn't accessible to me as a young person. Everything's pretty accessible now. But these children often don't have the skills to ask that question, is this legitimate? And there's a lot of peer pressure too. The childhood my children have is infinitely harder than the one that I grew up with. And there should be a compassionate response to that. And so the work then Must be as a father and, and as a provider of care. How do I keep them safe? How do I teach them digital jiu jitsu, you know, to fend off somebody who's going to try to exploit their vulnerability.

[B]

For sure. Yeah. For nudes, I don't see the risk to reward personally, even if you're dating them or whatever, because I've seen people's iclouds get hacked and then the nudes get leaked that way. I've seen people's Snapchats get hacked.

[A]

There was a case of a college girl a couple years ago that she was a beautiful woman and she had taken a lot of nude selfies, but. But had them in a folder in her Instagram. It wasn't public. It was like just for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a perpetrator was going around engaging digitally with young college girls and would learn about their community, their friends, you know, their. Their pattern of life. And sent her a fake Instagram password reset text. And it looked like it was from Instagram. It wasn't. But he had done the work to make it sound like Instagram and look like Instagram. Well, you know, she was busy. She didn't think about of it. So she hit the link and it sent a test. It sent a password or a code to her phone and then the text said, enter this code to reset your password. Well, he. He got the code, changed the password, locked her out of Instagram, downloaded all of her nudes, and then sold them all around the world.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

So that type of thing, it's like she wasn't even sharing the nudes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she inadvertently gave access to a perpetrator, access to her account that had everything. And then it was out there. And once it's out there, it's very difficult to remove it. And hopefully some legislation will advance in that regard as well to force the removal of some of these images. But it is. It is really difficult to suffer the trauma of something like that.

[B]

Yeah. So even just taking them is a risk these days, isn't that true?

[A]

Unfortunately, yeah, that's true.

[B]

Man, times are in. Well, Matt, it's been an honor having you, man. Thank you. You're doing amazing work. How can people support you and follow your journey?

[A]

Yeah. The Exodus road dot com. We can't do the good work we do to find and free victims of trafficking without supporters and donors. The majority of donors are individuals or households that care about this issue and want to join the fight with us. So that's the first place I point you to influence.org is the second one. If you want to learn how to keep your family and loved ones safe, we're in the business of equipping you with those skills also.

[B]

Nice. Thanks for your time today, man.

[A]

Yeah, thanks, Sean.

[B]

Good luck with everything. Check them out, guys. I'll see you next time. Peace. Thanks for watching all the way to the end, guys. Means a lot. Please click here if you want to watch the next episode and please subscribe to the show. It helps us get more guests and helps grow the brand.