Why A-Players Never Need to Look for Jobs (CEO Reveals) | Nathan Chan DSH #1001

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Summary
Episode: Why A-Players Never Need to Look for Jobs (CEO Reveals) | Nathan Chan DSH #1001
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Nathan Chan, CEO of Founder
Release Date: December 21, 2024

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Introduction

In the 1001st episode of the Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly welcomes Nathan Chan, the CEO of Founder, marking the first time Sean hosts a guest from Australia. This milestone sets the stage for an insightful conversation about entrepreneurship, overcoming cultural barriers, and building sustainable businesses in the digital age.

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Entrepreneurship in Australia: Overcoming the Tall Poppy Syndrome

Timestamp: 03:24

Nathan Chan opens up about the unique challenges of being an entrepreneur in Australia, particularly highlighting the Tall Poppy Syndrome—a cultural phenomenon where individuals are criticized or cut down for their success.

Nathan Chan (03:24): "We have something called Tall Poppy syndrome. It’s where culturally, you’re often put down if you want to achieve great things or build something massive."

Sean and Nathan discuss how this societal mindset can discourage aspiring entrepreneurs from pursuing ambitious ventures. Despite these cultural hurdles, Nathan's early entrepreneurial spirit—selling PlayStation games and other items in school—laid the foundation for his later success.

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Building Founder: From Digital Magazine to Membership Platform

Timestamp: 04:06

Nathan shares the origin story of Founder, initially a digital magazine named "Key to Success." His passion for interviewing successful founders led to the creation of content that resonated deeply with aspiring entrepreneurs.

Nathan Chan (04:06): "I started Founder purely out of the desire to define work that I enjoy. Life is too short to not do work you don’t enjoy."

After interviewing influential figures like Richard Branson, Founder quickly gained traction, becoming one of Australia's leading entrepreneurship magazines. However, recognizing the evolving digital landscape, Nathan pivoted Founder from a magazine to a membership-based platform known as Founder Plus.

Nathan Chan (08:00): "We just use the magazine as lead gen. The real focus is now building our membership site, a masterclass for entrepreneurship."

Founder Plus offers courses and interactive content from successful founders, providing members with actionable insights and mentorship opportunities akin to a "masterclass for entrepreneurship."

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The Art of Storytelling and Deep Conversations

Timestamp: 15:50

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Nathan's approach to interviewing high-profile entrepreneurs. He emphasizes the importance of storytelling and eliciting vulnerability from guests to uncover the true struggles behind their successes.

Nathan Chan (15:57): "We’re really about the storytelling. The more we can get the guest to share the difficult stuff, the better."

Nathan spends considerable time preparing for interviews, aiming to extract genuine stories of adversity and resilience. This approach not only humanizes successful founders but also provides relatable lessons for listeners.

Nathan Chan (16:27): "Every single founder has gone through times where they almost gave up. If you don’t experience those moments, maybe you’re not pushing hard enough."

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Building a Sustainable E-commerce Brand vs. Drop Shipping

Timestamp: 13:45

Nathan differentiates Founder’s methodology from trends like drop shipping, advocating for the creation of sustainable brands rather than short-term, high-risk ventures.

Nathan Chan (13:54): "We teach people to build a sustainable brand, solving a problem instead of just finding a trending product."

He argues that while drop shipping can be an excellent starting point for understanding product-market fit and media buying, long-term success hinges on owning customer relationships and building scalable assets.

Nathan Chan (14:42): "Our whole methodology is building a brand, solving a problem, not just finding some product that you can just trend with."

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Effective Talent Acquisition: Warm Referrals Over Job Boards

Timestamp: 24:35

A key topic is the strategy behind hiring top-tier talent. Nathan underscores the effectiveness of warm referrals compared to traditional job boards, likening high-performing individuals to "A-players" who often don’t actively seek new opportunities.

Nathan Chan (24:35): "The best way is through the network. Most game-changing hires come through my network."

He highlights that exceptional talent typically knows their worth and prefers roles that offer aligned incentives and growth opportunities, making referrals a more reliable source for hiring outstanding employees.

Nathan Chan (25:26): "A-players don't need to look for a job. The next job finds them."

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Leveraging Content for Maximum Distribution and Brand Trust

Timestamp: 28:00

Nathan elaborates on Founder’s content strategy, focusing on leverage and distribution. By repurposing interviews into podcasts, articles, social media posts, and more, Founder maximizes the reach and impact of each piece of content.

Nathan Chan (28:05): "I could take one piece of content and turn it into 30 pieces of content."

This multi-channel approach not only increases brand visibility but also establishes trust through association with high-profile and respected entrepreneurs. The consistent output of quality content has been pivotal in building Founder’s reputation and expanding its community.

Nathan Chan (29:59): "These guys are effectively ambassadors for our brand. People know the brand because of the incredible people we've featured."

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Navigating the Challenges of Digital Platforms and Content Saturation

Timestamp: 37:49

The conversation shifts to the dynamics of digital platforms like YouTube and TikTok. Both Nathan and Sean express concerns over content saturation and the declining effectiveness of traditional long-form content due to shorter attention spans fostered by platforms like TikTok.

Sean Kelly (37:28): "YouTube views are down. I've talked to so many YouTubers; they're down like 60% on average."

Nathan acknowledges the difficulty in maintaining visibility amidst the overcrowded digital space but remains optimistic about adapting strategies to continue reaching their audience effectively.

Nathan Chan (38:28): "It's a hard platform to conquer, but we're starting to work it out."

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The Importance of Exceptional Talent and Building a Strong Company Culture

Timestamp: 22:40

In discussing company growth, Nathan emphasizes the critical role of exceptional talent and a robust company culture. He advises aligning employee incentives with business goals and fostering an environment where top performers are motivated to contribute meaningfully.

Nathan Chan (24:31): "Good people know their worth. They understand how to align their goals with the business."

Nathan also touches on the significance of creating a community-focused culture, which aligns with Founder’s niche in e-commerce, enabling targeted support and engagement for its members.

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Branding Insights: The Power of a Simple, Memorable Name

Timestamp: 30:00

Nathan recounts a pivotal moment in Founder’s history when a trademark lawsuit forced him to change the publication’s name from "Key to Success" to "Founder." This change, although initially challenging, ultimately strengthened the brand by adopting a simple, memorable, and powerful name.

Nathan Chan (31:34): "I just changed the name. Founder was the best thing that ever happened to me."

He reflects on the broader branding landscape, noting that one-word brand names like Google, Facebook, and Snapchat tend to be more memorable and impactful.

Nathan Chan (32:10): "Most brands are one word. Ideally no more than five letters. It just flows well."

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Throughout the episode, Nathan Chan shares valuable insights into:

1. Overcoming Cultural Barriers: Navigating societal challenges like the Tall Poppy Syndrome to pursue entrepreneurial ambitions.
2. Content Strategy: Maximizing content leverage through multi-channel distribution to build brand trust and community.
3. Sustainable Business Models: Focusing on long-term brand building over short-term trends like drop shipping.
4. Talent Acquisition: Prioritizing warm referrals and network-based hiring to secure top-tier talent.
5. Storytelling in Leadership: Utilizing deep, authentic conversations to humanize successful entrepreneurs and inspire listeners.
6. Branding Excellence: Emphasizing the importance of a simple, memorable brand name for lasting impact.

Nathan’s journey from launching a digital magazine to establishing a leading membership platform exemplifies the blend of resilience, strategic pivoting, and a commitment to providing genuine value to the entrepreneurial community.

Nathan Chan (41:29): "Want to learn how to start or grow an e-commerce business? We'd love to support you on the journey. We put out a lot of content around business entrepreneurship."

For aspiring entrepreneurs and professionals seeking to thrive in the digital landscape, this episode offers actionable takeaways and inspiring narratives that underscore the essence of building and sustaining a successful business.

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Listen to the full episode here

Follow Founder:
Website: Founder.com
Social Media: Founder on LinkedIn

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven’t had the chance to listen.

Transcript

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[Nathan Chan]

The fire because the care knowing in about an hour stuffers would soon be.

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[Nathan Chan]

Here's a good story. I was sued for trademark infringement. It wasn't called Founder. The magazine was originally called Key to Success. We had the Success logo and then Key to in the middle. But we had Neil Patel on the front cover and he covered the key to you can guess who sued us. And I get this letter in the mail from Success magazine that they're suing me for trademark infringement.

[Host]

All right, guys, digital social hour. We got Nathan Chan here from Australia. I think you might be the first guest I've had from Australia, man.

[Nathan Chan]

Really? There you go.

[Host]

Thanks for coming on. Thanks for representing us.

[Nathan Chan]

Represent.

[Host]

I've been there, by the way.

[Nathan Chan]

Really?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

What were you doing there?

[Host]

Went with my mom, just on vacation. But I went to Sydney and Melbourne and got to pet a kangaroo.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, there you go.

[Host]

And eat one.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh yeah. High source of protein.

[Host]

It actually tasted pretty good.

[Nathan Chan]

It tastes like chicken.

[Host]

Yeah. And there's a lot of them. So you, you kind of have to eat them out there because there's so many of them.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.

[Host]

Do they just like pull up to your house there? How common are they? Are they like deer?

[Nathan Chan]

No, not as common as deer, but look like where I grew up in the suburbs, not like I'm from Melbourne, grew up in the suburbs and like we, we. There's like a, like a lot of nature, a lot of land where we are and like I can drive out, you know, close to my parents place and you can see them like a lot. But no, not that Common.

[Host]

They're pretty peaceful, though, for the most part.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, you see all these memes online where people are, like, fighting and boxing with kangaroos and stuff. But, yeah, now look, if you walk towards them, they'll jump.

[Host]

That's funny, man. Were you always pretty entrepreneurial in Australia? Because it's not as advanced as us, right?

[Nathan Chan]

No. So when I started founder, I had absolutely no network. My mum was a nurse, my dad was a teacher. I didn't know anybody really that started a business or started an online business. I heard about stories from friends for friends of friends, but, yeah, nah, man, like, Australia is not like, look, we have companies like Canva, like Atlassian massive startups, but, like, it's. It's just not the same as America. Right? Like the mindset, the mentality. We have something called Tall Poppy syndrome. Have you heard of that?

[Host]

No, what is that?

[Nathan Chan]

Well, basically, it's where for whatever reason, culturally, you're often put down or looked down upon if you want to achieve, you want to do great things, you want to build something massive.

[Host]

Really?

[Nathan Chan]

Something bigger than yourself. Yeah.

[Host]

Top Harpy syndrome.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

That's fascinating. So growing up, you were kind of ashamed to be an entrepreneur then?

[Nathan Chan]

Well, here's the thing, man. I used to, you know, just sell things at school. Like, you remember you could burn DVD.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Sell PlayStation games. I used to do all sorts of things like that. But, yeah, look, I. I didn't think I'd become an entrepreneur. I just kind of fell into it.

[Host]

I think it's something you're kind of born with and molded early on in your life.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, look, it depends. It depends. So, for me, I always was trying to get ahead. I was always like, you know, a bit of a hustler. But nah, man, like, honestly, I. I never thought I'd be here. I. I started founder purely from. I just wanted to do work I enjoy. Like, life is too short to not do work you don't enjoy. And look, I know you've had these experiences, like, you've had, you know, you used to be an E comm. Yeah, I know. You move to podcasting. You love us so much, right? Like, so for me, I started founder purely out of the desire to define work that I enjoy. Like, that's how it started. Like, I started to interview people. No one in my network, no one used to get back to me and I was just having fun and I created this magazine and. And, like, what I found was, like, the stories that I like, because I started found it 10 years ago. What I found was the stories were so amazing, like interviewing these people. I had to share it with the world. And I started to put out this magazine. Four months later I got an interview with Richard Branson and then the thing kind of spiraled. But dude, I was taking Founder, the digital magazine, to job interviews, like, really not thinking it was going to be something. So I just kind of fell into entrepreneurialism, fell into entrepreneurship.

[Host]

Wow. And it was one of the biggest, if not the biggest magazines in Australia, right?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, for sure. Like, you know the brand. We've got Forbes, Fast company, Entrepreneur, you know, Inc Magazine and Founder is like one of the top magazines in the space now. We're a global leading brand. We're not as big as I'd like us to be. We're not as well known as I'd like us to be, but we're certainly getting there. Like, you know, if you, if you ask a founder, more times than not, someone would know the brand.

[Host]

Right. It's definitely recognizable. You do well with the magazine covers. I can.

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[Host]

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[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, there you go.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. Hats off to you. So with Founder plus, is that the pivot away? Because I know the magazine space is hurting right now, right?

[Nathan Chan]

Well, look, it got to a point where we just use the magazine as lead gen, right? Like the magazine is awesome, so we just give it away for free, right? It's like an incredible, incredible magazine that you get over 100 editions now all digitally, like through our platform. Just give it away for free. It's awesome. And then our real focus is now building our membership site. Because what I found was I started to interview all these awesome founders like yourself, right? And. But we're really niche, focused on entrepreneurship, starting growing a business. And what happened was a lot of people started to ask in the community, hey, how can I learn more from this person? Hey, I love that this person talked about sales, but like, I want to get more from it. Like. And so what I started to do was like, how could I get these people to teach? How could I get these really awesome founders that have actually done it to get them to teach on a platform? Because, yeah, the course base is massive now. Everyone's selling a course, it seems, right. And I thought, what if, what if I could go out and I could find these awesome founders that we're already speaking to, already interviewing, telling their story. We know that people love them. Perhaps they just want to focus on building their business instead of actually selling like courses and stuff like that. And what if we partner with them and get them to teach on our platform? So kind of like a masterclass for entrepreneurship. And yeah, I launched that officially a couple of years ago, but really going all in there. Nice. Yeah, it's been a journey, man. But it's been awesome.

[Host]

I love it, man. Yeah, I think you interviewed me for one of those, right?

[Nathan Chan]

We interviewed you for one of our events about our summits. Yeah, yeah. We go to a lot of lives.

[Host]

Yeah. That was an AI event, right?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

You were on the forefront of that too, which is great. It seems like you're very on top of things, on top of trends.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, look, I like the only way you do this stuff and get ahead of trends is just spend time in the space, see where people are going, see what's moving. Like, you know, membership space is massive now. Like with school.

[Host]

School's crushing up.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, school and hormozy. Like, it seems now that a lot of people that are selling online education digital products, they'll want to move to the membership model. I was working on that a couple years ago and it is not as easy as people think.

[Host]

It's not. Payment processing is hard in that space. A lot of headaches. But if you could build up an mrr, it helps the company valuation a lot.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. But for us, I started to set like for founder, we had single courses, right? And you know, Damon Johns taught a course. Or Joe Decina, the guy that he founded, you know, he purchased Tough Mudder and he founded Spartan. Like it's like really cool founders, we get them to teach, give back, and we just doing single courses. But what we found was we were doing a disservice to our community, our customers. And a lot of people started asking once again, hey, I've bought like three or four of your programs. Why can't I get this in a subscription? And that's how it naturally happens. So it's, it's, it wasn't for us. Like I wanted to create a membership. It started with, hey, how can we get these awesome founders, legit founders that are actually doing it, that actually like their business is building the thing that they're teaching? Like they're doing E Comm or they're building an agency or building a SAS business. That's their thing. They're not going out and teaching and perhaps they want to give back and we give a platform where you can give back. And yeah, that, that started and we started to do single courses, then eventually got to a point where it's just like we have so many programs. Like, why not just package it up and turn into a membership that's purely focused and that's, that's a transition in of itself, dude. Because so many people think, okay, you know, the MRR play. All right, well I'm going to get. All I need is like a thousand people pay me a hundred bucks. Oh, that's awesome. Right Now I'm making 100 grand. It's a million dollar year. ARR. I can get a great value, great multiple on that. But people forget that just because someone buys or enrolls in your membership doesn't mean they're going to stick.

[Host]

Right? Drop off, man.

[Nathan Chan]

You have to really focus on the customer.

[Host]

The churn. Yeah, I just had on a guest right before you. His name was Tyson He's a sports better and his drop off is 10 to 15% which is really high. But he said in that sports betting space it's actually low.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Wow.

[Host]

Because sports betting is so volatile. So if you have a losing week, you could have 25% of people drop off right there.

[Nathan Chan]

That's crazy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

How's that a business?

[Host]

It's a tough business. That's why you need to focus on community, which is what you've done. You've built up the social media channels. You build these community channels.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, look, community is key and I think we niche down as well. We just focus on ecom. So that allows us to really speak to a certain kind of person. I know a lot of people doing, you know, memberships that can often be quite broad. For us we're like focusing really on the niche of E commerce. You want to start an E commerce business, you want to grow an E commerce business? You can learn from us like this.

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[Nathan Chan]

Like it's 500 a year. It's like super cost affordable.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. It's like it's a no brainer. We would have spent millions of dollars, dollars producing like courses, programs, building out.

[Host]

The platform and I feel like E commerce, it's, it's definitely hit its peak in the US but I feel like with other countries, drop shipping is still really hot and upcoming.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, look, it depends, right? For us, believe it or not, our biggest, our biggest customer base is in the us.

[Host]

Really?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Wow.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Because I thought drop shipping kind of hit its peak a few years ago.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh look, I, we for us when it comes to E commerce, we, we don't really teach drop shipping. We teach people to build a sustainable brand. It's like, it's like founder, right? You know, Right. Like people teach people to build a brand. Like yeah, that like we, we're more about owning the customer, own the relationship, building something that's a scalable asset and that, you know, dropshipping is very hit and miss. Get rich quick. Use Facebook ads can work. Don't get wrong It's a great, maybe a great starting place for people to understand products, understand product market fit, understand media buying. But yeah, no, our whole methodology and framework is building a brand, solving a problem, not just finding some product that you can just. It's trending. Yeah. Day trade, like that's not a business.

[Host]

There's a lot of that on social media. People teaching the get quick online stuff.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, 100%. So yeah. No, look for us at founder, we teach people how to actually build a long term sustainable business. It just comes back to the kind of founders we interview. Right. Dude, I've interviewed you. Were you probably the same as me? You probably interviewed over 100 billionaires. Right?

[Host]

Not billionaires. You've definitely got me beat on billionaires.

[Nathan Chan]

Okay.

[Host]

I've interviewed maybe 10.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Okay. Because I interviewed tons of super like well known founders. If you don't know their, their company, you would know them. Like so they all built sustainable businesses. That's kind of like our kind of ethos of like the word founder. Like if someone's into, if someone's drop shipping, are they a founder? Maybe, maybe not. Have they founded a company? Maybe you know, in the more Internet marketer. Right. Like you're an affiliate marketer.

[Host]

It definitely should be treated as like a stepping stone. I started off with drop shipping, a lot of my friends did, but they're not doing that anymore.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So it's a great place to learn. But for us we just kind of, our ethos is around, you know, we interview founders, we have founders get back on our platform and we teach people to found a company.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Business. Yeah.

[Host]

What's your process for interviewing a billionaire? How long are you prepping and how does the interview go?

[Nathan Chan]

So I have a re. Like a team that helps with the pre production. I, I go through like for us now, man, when it comes to the process, we really, we're really about the storytelling. Like, like and the more that we can get the guest to share the difficult stuff. Right. Like not enough people talk about how hard it is to build a business.

[Host]

Being vulnerable.

[Nathan Chan]

Yes, yes. That's the stuff we're looking for. Right. So in terms of prep, I'd say I'd spend maybe an hour or two and look, fortunately I have a team that helps and yeah, I'm looking for the stories, I'm looking for the interesting, uniquely interesting stories. The, you know, the stuff where it, you don't hear people talk about like, you know, you've got an incredible network. You would hear crazy Stories from founders. Yeah. That, you know, have been so close, losing millions, tens of millions of dollars like, all times that you've almost thought about giving up. Because every single founder has gone through that, man. Like, every single founder has got to a point where they're flying so close to the sun that they might lose it all. Right? But they don't. And, you know, the question is, if you don't experience those moments, maybe you're not pushing hard enough.

[Host]

You're living too comfortably. Right?

[Nathan Chan]

Exactly, man. Like, and that's what life's all about, right? It's like making a move.

[Host]

Even myself now, when I go through, like, couple month periods where I'm like, things are too easy right now. Let me, like, go public, speak at an event or something, like, put myself in an uncomfortable situation.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, dude, you have to.

[Host]

You gotta always be challenging yourself.

[Nathan Chan]

Well, look, when you're getting to reaching, like interviewing someone's a billionaire or multimillionaire, they've built something of true worth and significance. And to get there, you just have to have times of adversity. Right. You have to have battle scars. And that's what I want to hear. That's what we want to share. But if you don't do enough research, how are you gonna know? How you gonna pull that out? Because generally, people aren't that vulnerable, right? Like, it depends on the person. But you do all the interviews all the time, man. Usually people are surface level, Right.

[Host]

Especially a billionaire. They've been PR trained, you know, they're. They're taught to kind of suppress emotions for the most part in that level of business.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, man. You really have to push.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Right. You have to ask. You have to warm them up. It's. Yeah, it's not that easy.

[Host]

Yeah, Damon was a good interview.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

He got vulnerable when I interviewed him. Yeah. Shout out to Damon John.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. He's awesome.

[Host]

Yeah, he was a good interview. I've had some challenging ones for sure, but those always make me a better host.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, sometimes when they're so closed off, it's like, okay, maybe I could have done better, you know?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah. Look, it's an interesting one. Sometimes you find, like. Because I didn't see any of these, dude. Done for a long time. Right. Sometimes you find, is it the guest that carries the show or is it you? That show.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

You mean? And. And it's your job as. As the host to really try and push and get the most out of that person and then also know. Know your audience, too, is what's going to be interesting for them.

[Host]

Right?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

You do well with the fact that because a lot of people can't relate to billionaires, but you do well with humanizing them, you know, providing stories that people can relate to about them. Sometimes they're so detached from the ordinary person.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. 100. But at the end of the day, man, like billionaires, they're still a human being. They're still like, they still have the same challenges that, that everybody has. They've just, you know, for the most part surround themselves with incredible people. Right. Like businesses are built by people like billionaires. Doesn't matter how smart you are, you have to have an incredible group of people around you and you have to be willing to have difficult conversations to move on those people as well and like move people around. Like, you have to be good with people, but you have to have great people around you. But you know, when you look at a billionaire, there's so many people behind them that has allowed them to get there. Right. And it's your job as the founder to find and identify and lead those people. Right. It is so key. It's not a sexy thing people talk about when it comes to building a business, but he's like absolutely everything, man.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Right. Like I just met John. He's like, he seems like a really smart, super savvy dude that works with you. Right? Like, how'd you meet John?

[Host]

We just met last week. My friend told me he just moved here and was looking for a job.

[Nathan Chan]

There you go. It's crazy, right? But there was something that you identified.

[Host]

I saw his struggle. He grew up in a rough environment and I actually like that because that builds character.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Sometimes when you're spoon fed too much, it's hard to really come out of that shell 100%.

[Nathan Chan]

So he's hungry.

[Host]

He's hungry. I could sense it off him.

[Nathan Chan]

Exactly. Right.

[Host]

Like he's doing stuff I'm not even telling him to do.

[Nathan Chan]

How good is that?

[Host]

It's amazing. I woke up, Yeah. I woke up to two Google Docs full of all this useful information this morning.

[Nathan Chan]

See, that's what I'm saying. So like you look at a billionaire, right? It's easy to look at that person and go, how? Well it's so incredible. And it is incredible what they've been able to build. Right. But they're no different to your eye. Right. They're no smarter than you or I. They just, they've had a ton of luck. Right. They've worked so hard. There's been so many times where They've flown close to the sun. Right. They've got this ability to find great people to work with them.

[Host]

100.

[Nathan Chan]

Like, that's so. Okay, man.

[Host]

I've seen Cuban talk about the luck stuff.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because he even. He says himself he had a lot of luck to become a billionaire. The timing of his companies.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

And everything. And I know you've interviewed him too.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, man, businesses are built by people. It seems so simple, but so easy to forget. Everyone's looking for, like, the next tactic or hack or, you know, tick tock shop or like, what. Whatever it is. Right. But biggest hack I believe in business is just finding exceptional people and just like finding a way to keep them motivated to keep working with you and, you know, finding out what they want. And, you know, how can you align that with your business goals and just building a great company and culture where it's just like, like you said, like, how cool is it that John's thinking? Right. Like, that gives you so much leverage. How can you give. How can you find great people? You can just let them go and they go off and they build a part of your company for you. That's what you want, man.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Chan]

It's not easy to find.

[Host]

Not easy. Most people want to follow instructions, do the bare minimum work, check out early.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's easy to do that. You know, Exactly. You know, as. As someone on a payroll job. Why would I spend more time on something I don't have to? So I get the mindset.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host]

But entrepreneur mindset is kind of the opposite.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. 100%.

[Host]

That's the difference there.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

But incentivizing employees, that's. That's where I'm trying to figure out, you know, because I'm not a fan of salaries, dude, I feel like people do the bare minimum just to collect the salary. And I get that. That's what I would do if I was in that position. So I need to think of better ways to incentivize people.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Well, look, it depends, right? It depends what your goals are, Right. Show me. Show me the incentive. I'll show you the outcome. So how can you align your goals with the show, with this podcast, with this business, to where you want to go, where. Where perhaps your team members want to go? How can you align that? And I can give them KPIs. That recognizes and incentivizes and rewards what you're going after. But from my experience, like, it depends on the quality of the person. But good people know their worth too, Right? They know their worth and if they're commercially savvy enough when you get to a certain like level of talent that you're looking for, if they're, if they're commercially savvy enough to be in the position they're in, then they know their worth and they. It's hard to get people to work off just perhaps like a commission. Only you can. It depends on. It's a great test shows how hungry somebody is. But oftentimes you know people that are super savvy commercial that can build businesses and they typically build other people's businesses that they know their worth in the marketplace.

[Host]

Absolutely. Where have you been sourcing your top talent?

[Nathan Chan]

Oh look, we've used recruiters in the past but I find one of the best ways is through the network like my network or my team's network friends that you know all the most game changing hires that I've made, majority of them have been through my network.

[Host]

A warm referral.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. 100 like you just. It's really tough for job boards and finding people that way.

[Host]

I found it's a needle in a Haystack. Right.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Yeah. 100. Because oftentimes why people looking at a job board, a players, they don't like a place, don't have to look for a job. People keep finding them.

[Host]

It's like dating apps. It's like the hottest girls aren't on the apps. They don't need to be on the dating apps.

[Nathan Chan]

Correct. 100%.

[Host]

Yeah, that's right.

[Nathan Chan]

It's the same thing. You want to find a players. Oftentimes a players don't have to look for a job man. The next job finds them.

[Host]

That makes sense because if you're that good, people are going to be approaching you.

[Nathan Chan]

Correct. And that's what I was saying before. Like if you're that good, you're commercially savvy, you know your worth. Right. So you take a certain kind of deal to not have base but you can structure, you know, maximum upside on both sides.

[Host]

Right.

[Nathan Chan]

And minimizing downside. There's always, always different ways to structure.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes sense. Warm referrals. So I have a WhatsApp shot of all the previous podcast guests and yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

John's just going to add me. It sounds awesome.

[Host]

Yeah. But like you were saying, a lot of people post like their friends looking for a job in there and they're like a great person and they get hired within a few hours.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Host]

So. Yeah, I definitely agree. A warm, warm intro. Because the trust is there. You Trust this person. They've worked with them in the past, they produce these results. Yeah, I'll hire you.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. 100. And the thing is, right, sometimes with recruiters, what's cool, there's pros and cons. People don't necessarily always like recruiters. But the, but the pro is there's a lot of work in finding that high quality person. And yeah, it would be powerful for me, me as the founder, you know, tap someone on the shoulder through LinkedIn. But you've got to sift, you've got to look through it all and then you know, the recruiter, they're the head hunting. Like they're looking for somebody that's done it before. That's the key as well. Like, you know, I've always heard that Jeff Bezos, when he goes to enter a new market, he go, he, he taught, he poaches the top executives from that market.

[Host]

Wow.

[Nathan Chan]

For like the top, like executives at the competitor, he poaches them in that market and then gets them, plugs them into his entry business. Right. And there's, there's a lesson in that, right. Like how much easier it is it for someone to succeed in your business if they've already done it before. Right. Like, how cool would it be if you got the Joe Rogan's producer Jamie, like you got, you got one of many of his producers to come work for you. How much faster you gonna grow?

[Host]

Way faster.

[Nathan Chan]

Exactly. And that's the key, right? How can you find people that have done it before? How can you find somebody that has seen the movie, seen the movie before? Biggest hack, man.

[Host]

Yeah. It reminds me of Dan Martell buying your time back.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, because you're hiring these people that have spent X amount of years for a new venture. So you're saving all those years.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, man. He's a super smart guy. He's blowing up right now.

[Host]

Oh yeah. And that's where content comes into play, which you were early on. Content. I remember seeing your content when I was just becoming an entrepreneur in college, like eight, nine years ago.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, there you go.

[Host]

What gave you that conviction so early on and get into content?

[Nathan Chan]

Well, look, I bootstrapped founder, never raised any money. And I found that it was really powerful how you could take one piece of content and turn it into like 30 pieces of content. And I'm big fan of leverage. So that's what I used to do, man. Like I started, I started with the magazine, right. Digital magazine, started interviewing successful founders, sharing their stories. And then I, what I realized is like, well, I could have way more distribution if I took this interview and turned into a podcast, turn it into clips, turned it into an article, turned it into a newsletter, turned it into a tweet, turned into an Instagram quote. Like, like, like, you know, 101 things. You just get more distribution. You get, you, you sweat the asset more. Right. Because every single interview that you're doing, that's an asset where the content goes out you. And it's like you're planting a seed. Like, I'm sure. And we see this. Like, you would have some guests that do really, really well that are super viral, but it's probably only a small percentage. Right. But you're planting all these different assets out there. Some will hit, some will miss, but eventually you'll find some that work and that amplifies your distribution and amplifies your reach.

[Host]

Right.

[Nathan Chan]

So that's how I kind of worked it out. I was like, okay, well, how can I just leverage that interview? And I knew as well that there's so much power in having a magazine, dude. So much power, so much influence.

[Host]

Everyone wants to be on the COVID of magazine.

[Nathan Chan]

Exactly. But then also, for whatever reason, when you have these super successful people on the front covers of your magazine, it builds trust by association. And that's what's built the brand, trust by association. These guys are effectively ambassadors for our brand. So then people know the brand. It's a great name too.

[Host]

Great.

[Nathan Chan]

Founder without the E. Like we own the word for founder and that's synonymous amongst entrepreneurship with the E or without the A. Do you listen to Founder? Do you read? Read Founded? You watch Founder. Are you a member of Founder? Like, yeah.

[Host]

Such a simple name that it's like perfect, right?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. But dude, here's a good story. You want to store it? So when I first started Founder, I was sued for trademark infringement.

[Host]

Really?

[Nathan Chan]

First three months of starting, someone trademarked it, so it wasn't called Founder. So the magazine was originally called Key to Success. And I had Neil Patel on the front cover on, I think it was the third edition. And we had the Success logo and then Key two in the middle, but we had Neil Patel on the front cover and he covered the Key two. So you can, you can guess who sued us. And dude, I was working in my day job, had like no money whatsoever. This was like a little side hobby. Didn't know it was going to go like, be found and be where it is. Right. And I get this letter in the mail, FedEx package from success magazine that they're Suing me for trademark infringement. And like, dude, I didn't have the money. Right. Like, I know, I was scared. Like your first business, imagine your first business, the first three months you get served a FedEx package by this big company in the United States that you need to appear in Dallas, Texas.

[Host]

Jeez.

[Nathan Chan]

And yeah, man, I just changed the name. Sorted all that out by changing the name, called a founder.

[Host]

Wow.

[Nathan Chan]

That was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[Host]

So that lawsuit helped you?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, dude, that was a blessing in disguise.

[Host]

Wow.

[Nathan Chan]

Because, man, like, I would have had this name key to success. It's pretty shitty name.

[Host]

Not as good as founder.

[Nathan Chan]

No, no. I love one word names. Like, you think of all the top brands, like all the well known brands. Very, very rarely in multiple words. Usually always one word.

[Host]

That's true.

[Nathan Chan]

Right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Away suitcases, Google, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat. Snapchats maybe, but Snap, you know, snap. Like, yeah, most brands are one word. Ideally no more than five letters. Yeah.

[Host]

I wonder if there's some psychological thing to that.

[Nathan Chan]

Not sure. I don't know, man. I think it's just cool. Yeah, it just flows well, you know.

[Host]

Why would you want to say a long word?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it just seems that way. Like, I mean, Chanel, you know, I mean, like I, I don't know why, but what. And what do all these names mean? Like, that's, that's the thing as well, right? There's random names and they've become that brand because it's been built.

[Host]

What did you think of Facebook and Twitter changing their names?

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, look, I'm no branding expert, man, but like, for some reason, look, the, the Facebook one, it's still branded like Facebook. It's not meta. Like you, when you log in, you don't go to meta.com. right. Like it's so, so it's just the parent, you know. So I think Facebook was less of a bigger deal when, when Twitter changed to X. I personally thought it wasn't the smartest move because there's just so much, just so much brand recognition built in Twitter. Like X is cool though. But it's just going to take a lot of work to build it back up. But everyone knows the platform anyways. But I don't know why they needed to.

[Host]

Yeah, I was.

[Nathan Chan]

Did they need to?

[Host]

They kind of, kind of just followed Facebook suit. I feel like the timing was weird.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. I don't know. Like, I, I've heard that Elon Musk always owned that domain.

[Host]

Oh, x dot com.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Apparently he's owned it for a long time.

[Host]

He just wanted to find a use.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, I think, I think so. I think that's what that was. But look, that guy's so smart. Like.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

He's making so many moves, so far ahead of the curve. Who knows?

[Host]

Is he a dream interview for you? Yeah, he's on my list too.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Host]

I made a manifestation list when I started the podcast. I'm sure you did something similar, right?

[Nathan Chan]

It's so cool, dude. Yeah, you got to do that.

[Host]

I've been crossing off names every. Every month. Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. That's awesome. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got to do that. There's something special about that. I did that too, and I made a top 50 list and I've. I've gone through most of them. Yeah, the. The only look, the well known founders I haven't interviewed is, is Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk.

[Host]

And they're all within reach.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because you're able to leverage all your prior guests now. So 100, you're one degree away from them, probably.

[Nathan Chan]

100. Yeah. We will get there eventually. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. That's how I see the podcast too. You're just building up such a massive community now. I'm like one or two degrees away from anyone I want, which is insane.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, look, there's something very, very special doing it in person. I. I'm based in Australia. I have to a lot of them remotely. When you can do them in person, I think it's so much stronger for building network, building relationship, building rapport, being able to connect with that person on a deeper level, I think. Yeah, that's there. You. There's. There's a lot of magic.

[Host]

Yeah. You get a glimpse into their life because you could see their office, you could see what they're doing on a daily basis. You meet their team. It's just way better. I've only done one virtual one or maybe two, and because they were banned from the U.S. yep.

[Nathan Chan]

Okay.

[Host]

So I couldn't do it here.

[Nathan Chan]

Well, who's that?

[Host]

It was this guy named Santos Bonacci. And then there was another guy, he just recently passed away, but his name was Tom Palladino.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. But I'm like, even with Andrew Tate because I'm interviewing him. I'm gonna fly to Romania.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, awesome. Yeah, that would be a fun adventure.

[Host]

Because it's way better. Yeah, it'll be awesome. But I him over zoom. It just wouldn't hit the same.

[Nathan Chan]

There you go. I. I've seen anybody that interviews him his interviews really pop up. Yeah.

[Host]

Guaranteed a million views. Pretty much, yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Wow.

[Host]

Yeah, certain people are just like that. They got a really captivating audience.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I've been studying all the top content creators and a lot of what I'm noticing is the delivery of the message, the editing plays a big role, of course, but if they're just confident with the delivery, borderline arrogant. That's like a formula to go viral because I've had on a thousand guests now and I see which ones go viral.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, well, yeah, it's the conviction in what they're communicating, right?

[Host]

Yeah. Because Grant Cardone, there's a ton of billionaires, but his conviction is just so powerful. He goes viral every time.

[Nathan Chan]

It's also the look, how controversial. Like I, I've seen some of your, some of your clips and you know, like the, like the guy that's drinking his own urine, like, dude, that's hardcore, man. And then he, like, he's put on his face and stuff. Like, like, man, he's like, people are going to share that, you know, man, he'd like, for good, bad or otherwise. Right. Like I, you know, I'm not, not here to throw shade, but that was out there, right? Like, you know, you don't see that in your regular feed. No, you know, I think I might.

[Host]

Have been the first to break that one.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Yeah. But you know what I mean, right? You're laughing now, right? Like, this is crazy.

[Host]

Yeah, I didn't know you're gonna bring up that one. That's a, that's a funny one though.

[Nathan Chan]

It's crazy. Like, I saw that clip. I saw that clip. So like, so, yeah, I don't know, I don't know how, how, like how much conviction that guy have, bro. But like, like that's just wild.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, there's that, there's that line in social media where how degenerate do you want to be for views? Right?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I don't want to base my whole brand off that because that's a never ending loop. And then you go crazy if you're just relying on like doing the craziest things you could think of.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, but look, it's all about the hook.

[Host]

The hook for sure. Yeah. The hook is the first three seconds. If it's not interesting, I'm gone.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. And Tick tock trained that into people now.

[Host]

Yep. YouTube views are down. I'm talking to so many YouTubers, they're down like 60%.

[Nathan Chan]

Really?

[Host]

On average. Because shorts are just destroying attention spans, man. Have you noticed A dip in your. Your podcast listeners.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, we noticed a dip, but only because some apple changes and stuff like that. Did you see that?

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm down on audio, but even like just the YouTube long form is down too. Yours aren't on.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, we've been on a journey with YouTube, man. Journey. Going up and down. Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Well, it's saturated now too.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, it's a hard platform to conquer. We're starting to work it out now.

[Host]

But it's going again, honestly, the hardest because you could go viral on Instagram and tick tock with no followers. Yeah, 100, but YouTube, I don't see it that often.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. There's a lot of interview shows now as well.

[Host]

Yeah, tons of shows. I mean, when I look at the charts because I study all the top shows, it's just like new shows constantly are in the charts. Yeah, like the Hawk tour girl is in the top five right now. She just started last week.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, I saw that. That's crazy.

[Host]

Crazy, right? Did that make its way to Australia, that video?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah, it did. Everywhere.

[Host]

She was a worldwide phenomenon.

[Nathan Chan]

Dude. Dude. Australian subculture is. Is very similar to the U.S. like, we're always dialed in on what you guys.

[Host]

I figured that. Yeah, I hear that a lot about like countries that kind of follow our lead. So Canada, United Kingdom, Australia. They see what's going on here and then they'll. A couple months later, it'll trend over there.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, 100%.

[Host]

Yeah. You think you'd ever get a second spot out here in the US for business?

[Nathan Chan]

We had an office in New York.

[Host]

Oh, you did?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, we had an office in a studio and then I shut it down over covert.

[Host]

Oh, yeah, it was way too expensive.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, well, we weren't using it like, because lockdowns were crazy.

[Host]

Oh, they were bad.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. And then look, we will get it back up and going eventually.

[Host]

Nice. That'd be cool to have. Like, I actually am looking for studio in New York. Yeah, I gotta film with a couple people out there. Yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

Oh, that's awesome. So yeah. You're gonna base out of there?

[Host]

Well, I film once a month in a new city now because not everyone comes to Vegas.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I've been filming a lot in la, Texas, Miami. Those are like hot cities. But it's been hard to find a spot in New York to film out, surprisingly. I filmed with Ryan Serhant, but I had to go to his office, but I can't really find a good studio out there.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah. Okay. Interesting look for us. We went to a place called. What was it called? I forget now off the top of my head, but it was a decent space. And you just build it out yourself.

[Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

You had to build it out yourself. Like it was like a warehouse space.

[Host]

Oh, yeah. Just send me the link after this.

[Nathan Chan]

Industry City.

[Host]

Industry.

[Nathan Chan]

It was in Brooklyn. Brooklyn, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're in Brooklyn.

[Host]

I'll check it out.

[Nathan Chan]

Industry City. It was really cool.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nathan Chan]

And then you can just customize the space.

[Host]

Yeah, There's a lot of good guys in New York I want to hit. Yeah, yeah. Gary Vee's out there, I think. Barstool sports. They got some guys out there and a lot of Yankees and Knicks players, so.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

That's the good thing about the us, man. You could go to any city, any major city and get like 10 interviews in.

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, man.

[Host]

Yeah. You'll never run out of people here. I mean, like I was telling you off camera, I filmed 1200 interviews in two years.

[Nathan Chan]

That's insane.

[Host]

In the U.S. yeah. I'm catching up to you, man. How many have you done, dude?

[Nathan Chan]

I don't. I think I've just tipped over a thousand.

[Host]

Yeah, you got to be up there, I think.

[Nathan Chan]

I think. Yeah.

[Host]

Because you've been doing 10 years, so. Yeah, that's a lot, man. Well, it's been an honor. It's finally great to meet you in person, man. We've been talking for a while. Where could people find out about Founder plus and what else you have coming on?

[Nathan Chan]

Yeah, you just go to founder. Com. Founder. Com. Want to learn how to start or grow an ecommerce business? We'd love to support you on the journey. We put out a lot of content around business entrepreneurship.

[Host]

Perfect. We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on. Nathan, welcome. Watch it, guys. As always, check out the links below. See you next time.