Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker | Dan Smith DSH #1030

Summary

**Digital Social Hour Episode Summary
Title: Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Dan Smith
Release Date: December 29, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly sits down with renowned poker professional Dan Smith to explore the intriguing intersection between chess mastery and high-stakes poker. The conversation delves into Dan's impressive poker career, his early beginnings in chess, the impact of technology on both games, and his philanthropic endeavors.

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Career Highlights

Dan Smith shares insights into his poker career, highlighting his standings on the all-time money list. At one point, Dan achieved as high as third or fourth place, narrowly missing the top spot when Bryn Kenney clinched the million-dollar tournament win. Reflecting on this, Dan notes, “It was in the hunt. Yeah.” (00:36) He emphasizes that major tournaments can significantly elevate a player's ranking due to the substantial prize pools involved.

Sean probes the effectiveness of using tournament earnings as a measure of skill, to which Dan concurs, stating, “Oh, definitely not because it just comes down to a few key tournaments.” (01:15) Instead, he suggests a more nuanced approach, incorporating factors like total buy-ins and consistent performance across various events.

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Transition from Chess to Poker

Dan reveals his dual passion for chess and poker, explaining how his early experiences in chess influenced his strategic thinking in poker. Starting poker at 13 years old, he began with low-stakes games and gradually built his way up. “I started when I was like 13 years old... so I started low and then built my way up from there.” (04:37) His chess background, with an Elo rating of 2170, underpins his analytical approach to poker.

The conversation touches on the similarities between chess and poker, particularly the strategic depth and mental fortitude required. Dan observes, “There’s always been a good relationship between the two games.” (07:36) He notes that both disciplines demand a high level of concentration and adaptability, allowing chess players to transition effectively into high-stakes poker.

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High-Stakes Poker Insights

Dan delves into the dynamics of high-stakes poker, discussing the balance between skill and luck. He explains that while luck plays a role in individual games, consistent success in tournaments like Triton and the World Series of Poker (WSOP) is indicative of superior skill. “If you’re just better than the people you’re playing against regularly, you’ll win your fair share.” (07:22)

He also touches on the strategic use of emotions, particularly when facing disruptive opponents. Reflecting on an incident with Martin Cabral, Dan shares, “I think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I’m gonna really lock in.” (18:07) This ability to maintain composure under pressure is a hallmark of his poker prowess.

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Impact of Technology on Chess and Poker

The discussion shifts to the role of computers and technology in both chess and poker. Dan expresses initial resistance to computer-assisted strategies, noting, “It was a little resistant to it... when you started having to use the computer, it just became less fun, more technical.” (20:04) He draws parallels between the two games, highlighting how technology has shifted focus from human ingenuity to algorithm-driven play.

Despite his reservations, Dan acknowledges that serious poker players increasingly utilize computer tools to refine their strategies. “If you’re a very serious player, you’re studying with it to some degree.” (21:26) However, he points out that some players, like Bryn Kenney, choose to abstain from using such aids and still achieve remarkable success, though this is not the norm.

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Legal and Ethical Aspects of High-Stakes Poker

Dan provides insights into the complexities of organizing and participating in large-scale poker tournaments, particularly the challenges posed by international laws and regulations. He explains, “Some of it is about like laws about getting the money in there... smoother.” (26:35) The intricacies of anti-money laundering laws and the logistical hurdles of managing multi-million dollar tournaments in locations like Monte Carlo are discussed.

He also addresses the ethical concerns related to game integrity, such as the potential for cheating with marked cards. Reflecting on an incident with Martin Cabral, Dan emphasizes the importance of maintaining trust and fairness at the table. “If you are doing something like this into the card... you don’t get to play.” (16:52)

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Health and Biohacking

Shifting gears, the conversation explores Dan’s approach to health and wellness, particularly his investment in high-end health gadgets like cold plunges and saunas. Despite experiencing issues with his $10,000 Plunge One unit, Dan remains enthusiastic about cold therapy, stating, “I absolutely love them... just maybe not the one I have.” (27:30)

He underscores the importance of physical well-being in maintaining peak mental performance, especially in high-stakes environments. “Any little edge at your level is worth it.” (29:10) Dan advocates for personalized health strategies, acknowledging that dietary needs and fitness routines vary among individuals.

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Personal Interests and Lifestyle

Dan shares his personal interests beyond poker, including his love for fine dining and live entertainment in Las Vegas. Highlighting his favorite spots, he mentions Ramen Boys for authentic ramen and Double Zero Pizza for exceptional pizza, reflecting his East Coast upbringing. “Growing up in New Jersey, I like pizza.” (31:10) His appreciation for Las Vegas extends to attending shows at the Sphere, where he recently enjoyed a performance by the Eagles.

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Future Plans and Philanthropy

Looking ahead, Dan discusses his ongoing commitment to philanthropy through his charity, Double Up Drive. Celebrating its 10th anniversary, the charity has raised $27 million for various causes. This year’s drive, set to launch on December 3rd, aims to double donations for selected organizations, enhancing the impact of contributions. “Any money that you donate, our team will double the year. 100 becomes 200.” (41:00)

Dan’s dedication to giving back underscores his belief in leveraging his success to support meaningful causes, further showcasing his multifaceted persona beyond the poker table.

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Conclusion

The episode provides a comprehensive look into Dan Smith’s life as a top-tier poker professional with a strong foundation in chess. His insights into the strategic parallels between the two games, the influence of technology, and the importance of mental and physical well-being offer valuable lessons for both aspiring and seasoned players. Additionally, his commitment to philanthropy through Double Up Drive highlights the positive impact that individuals in competitive fields can have on broader societal issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Smith on Tournament Rankings: “Oh, definitely not because it just comes down to a few key tournaments.” (01:15)
• On Maintaining Composure: “I think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I’m gonna really lock in.” (18:07)
• On Technology’s Impact: “It was a little resistant to it... when you started having to use the computer, it just became less fun, more technical.” (20:04)
• On Philanthropy: “Any money that you donate, our team will double the year. 100 becomes 200.” (41:00)

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Timestamp Reference:

• [00:01] – Introduction of Dan Smith
• [00:36] – Career Highlights
• [01:15] – Effectiveness of Tournament Rankings
• [04:37] – Transition from Chess to Poker
• [07:22] – Skill vs Luck in Poker
• [16:52] – Ethical Standards at the Table
• [18:07] – Emotional Control in Poker
• [20:04] – Technology’s Impact on Games
• [21:26] – Use of Computers in Poker
• [26:35] – Legal Aspects of High-Stakes Poker
• [27:30] – Health and Biohacking Insights
• [29:10] – Importance of Physical Well-being
• [31:10] – Personal Interests in Food
• [41:00] – Future Plans and Philanthropy

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Dan Smith]

Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. Yeah, because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too, so they'll kind of throw you off, right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Because they know that you know. All right, guys, poker professional Dan Smith here today. Thanks for coming on, man.

[Dan Smith]

Thanks for having me. It's gonna be fun.

[Unknown Host]

Absolutely. Six on the all time money list, climbing up. Is that the highest you've ever been?

[Dan Smith]

I. I've gotten as high as either third or fourth. When Brynn Kenny won the big million dollar tournament, I got third in that tournament and if I had won, I would have made number one.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, wow. So you were right there.

[Dan Smith]

It was in the hunt. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Damn.

[Dan Smith]

But like also that tournament was like, it was so big that it like really just catapults you up, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah, I noticed because I've looked at the list and pretty much 80% of the caches seem to be from like a few events. Yeah, it's like a big cash out, like a $10 million payout, right?

[Dan Smith]

Something like that. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. So I don't know if that's a good way of judging skill level.

[Dan Smith]

Oh, definitely not because it just comes.

[Unknown Host]

Down to a few key tournaments.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. If you have a few million dollar tournaments over your career, sample size is going to be that relevant.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

But something to talk about, what's a.

[Unknown Host]

Better gauge to test skill level, you think?

[Dan Smith]

I mean, if you included buy ins in there, like, okay, this person, cash for 55 million and they were in for 35 plus 20. And also I think just like the eye test of like seeing somebody play, how are they handling situations? Like you talk to somebody about poker, in some cases you could just tell right away they know what they're talking about.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. You could tell just from talking to.

[Dan Smith]

Them a bit or like if you see someone play a hand, certainly mistakes are obvious enough that it's like pretty indicative that the person's not going to be like a star.

[Unknown Host]

That makes sense. Yeah, it never shows the buy ins. That's a good point. Because they could have bought in a few times.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

They could have even lost money and you wouldn't know for sure. Yeah, it happens.

[Dan Smith]

Like the buy ins are big. Like people. I probably played like 5ish million of buy ins last year, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Dan Smith]

Maybe more.

[Unknown Host]

It's pretty wild. Yeah. I saw on your Twitter, so last year you won 700k and I think as of last month you Tweeted you're down 700k.

[Dan Smith]

I don't know if it's still at the WSOP.

[Unknown Host]

At the WSOP?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, a lot of. And like also a $250,000 entry fee, like a 700k swing almost doesn't mean all that much, you know, like 250k tournament. But it's gonna swing a lot.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I guess it's all relative. For someone like you playing high stakes, that 700k is not that much.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. And also first for the big tournaments, plenty of professionals like take on investors or piece themselves out, that sort of thing.

[Unknown Host]

Got it. Is that something you do or do you fund your, your entire bankroll yourself?

[Dan Smith]

I take investors for the big tournaments. I think if you're like, with the tax implications as an American, you kind of have to. Otherwise having a losing year, like it would be such a big negative tax free roll.

[Unknown Host]

Right. Because you could only write off 6K. Right.

[Dan Smith]

You could write off losses against winnings, but only over the course of a year. So if you lose a million one year, you win a million the next year, you're break even. But you owe the government 400.

[Unknown Host]

Holy crap. I didn't know that.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, it's rough.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. So there's probably a lot of poker players that, that get wrecked because of that. They don't know that when they're starting out.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, sure.

[Unknown Host]

Is that something you got to learn along the way?

[Dan Smith]

I mean, it was like a factor, but like it also, like in the early parts of my career. You're not playing for super high stakes back then. You know, when you're playing smaller, like you, you just kind of learn along the way.

[Unknown Host]

Right. Were your stakes early on? Like was it gradual increase or were you kind of just one day you just decided to play really high stakes?

[Dan Smith]

I started when I was like 13 years old. I got a 25 transfer onto this poker site and I started buying like five dollar games, you know, so I started low and then built my way up from there.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, God. So humble beginnings. Wow. 13. That is an early start.

[Dan Smith]

I was a chess player when I was really young.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I want to talk about that because I'm a chess player. Ooh, not as good as you. I looked up your Elo. You hit 2000, right?

[Dan Smith]

I got up to 2170 and 2200 is master.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Dan Smith]

So that's always been a goal. Still never quite got there.

[Unknown Host]

Do you want to potentially revisit that in the future?

[Dan Smith]

I think so, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

They say with chess, it's. It's tougher as yielder.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I mean, definitely that's the case. There are also, I think, like, the things about getting cover, like, you. You also, if you just work really hard at it, like, okay, you're a professional basketball player, your skills are going down, and you're like, there's this left side. If you're just some guys playing really casually, this is still definitely be getting better into your 40s, you know? Yeah, I feel the same about most things.

[Unknown Host]

I feel that, yeah. With all the advancements in health and technology. You see ron playing at 40 now.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. And like, okay, maybe he's starting to decline, but, like, in a local league, you can just definitely keep getting better.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I've been at 13, 50 for. For eight months. I've been stuck, man. Yeah, that's the thing with chess.

[Dan Smith]

You just plateau and it's just. You stop getting. It's frustrating.

[Unknown Host]

It's so hard to get better at chess once you're at a certain level.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like, how long were you stuck at 2,000?

[Dan Smith]

Maybe like a two years.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Dan Smith]

And then I kind of hung it up.

[Unknown Host]

You got sick of it?

[Dan Smith]

It just stopped being fun for me. I realized I was, like, playing because I was good at it, not because I enjoyed it. And I saw that, like, for me to make, like, the next jump, like, I. Maybe I could have been like a 2,400 player in the U.S. you know, but, like, there's no future in that, you know, I just thought it would have been a ton of work, and I didn't think the path was there.

[Unknown Host]

Right. Yeah. The money's off in chess.

[Dan Smith]

Really, really tough. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like, you're probably not making much at 2170.

[Dan Smith]

Basically zero. I. I think to support yourself, you need to be, like, top 10, top 20 in the world, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Wow. So it's like tennis.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Yeah. It's rough.

[Unknown Host]

And that's the thing with poker. You don't have to be top 10 to make a living.

[Dan Smith]

No. I mean, if you're just better than the people you're playing against regularly.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

You'll win your fair share.

[Unknown Host]

So that's why you switch. Were you playing poker while you were playing chess simultaneously or did that?

[Dan Smith]

There was plenty of overlap.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, there was plenty of overlap.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Interesting. I see a lot of chess players now getting into poker. Have you seen that?

[Dan Smith]

Yes. I feel like there's always been, like, a good relationship between the two games. Like Mutual respect for a lot of.

[Unknown Host]

Similarities in the mindset.

[Dan Smith]

You think some. And I also just think few people play one game competitively. Like you kind of get it, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

And also I think a lot of chess players see people making money at poker and like want to give it a whirlwind.

[Unknown Host]

Hmm. Yeah. I see that.

[Dan Smith]

The luck factor is a rough thing to deal with though in poker.

[Unknown Host]

Right? Yeah. Cuz in chess there's probably none. Yeah. The only luck, I guess would be if your opponent is off or something.

[Dan Smith]

I mean if two people are very similar in skill, who wins on a given day is going to come down to like various factors, you know, so there like is a luck factor. Like if you're play ten games, one's supposed to get five and a half out of ten. Any given game. Any. Anything could happen. Like that is a variance or luck.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

But like between two people who are. Difference in skill, like the guy just never wins.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, 100%. You're not going to lose some random guy in chess ever. Yeah. Have you been following the chess like the pros still?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I enjoy it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I enjoy it too. Who's your. I was going to ask you that. I like not going to like this answer. I like Hans Neman.

[Dan Smith]

It's entertaining and he does have a interesting style. I think he's just kind of like pretty mean a lot.

[Unknown Host]

And he's got a chip on his shoulder because of what happened. But I like the underdog story. That's why I like him. And he's American.

[Dan Smith]

I could. I mean it's also. It is interesting. I've got a lot of people into it.

[Unknown Host]

It did. Yeah. Who's your guy? Magnus.

[Dan Smith]

Magnus is just so unbelievably filthy, you know, like it's just like completely. And I, I can't imagine it. Like I'll just have these positions where it just looks like it's completely even and it's like why are you even like continuing to play this on? And then he just grinds the guy down and he just does it over and over again. And like, like, I just can't understand how he's just this. That good.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Yeah. His end game is insane. So many positions will be tied and he'll come out on top somehow.

[Dan Smith]

And yeah, like, I literally don't know how he does it.

[Unknown Host]

It's nuts. And. And he, he drinks. He. He does other stuff. He's not just all about chess because a lot of these chess guys are just chess 24 7.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But he actually plays Poker on the side. He drinks and has fun.

[Dan Smith]

I think he clearly, like, values living his life. And he's like, oh, yeah, the World Championship Series isn't fun for me. I'm off it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, yeah, you backed out. I mean, those classical games are brutal on you mentally. Was that your format? Did you play a lot of classical?

[Dan Smith]

If you play in serious tournaments, that's what it comes down to. And I would do a lot of it. I played a tournament a couple years ago here in Vegas in December when I was kind of rusty. And I just remember thinking how insane it is that, like, I was doing that at nine years old, you know? Know, I was just like. I'm like, this is not appropriate for children.

[Unknown Host]

Like, wow. So you had really good mental fortitude at a. At a very young age, which is impressive because kids these days are just bouncing off the walls.

[Dan Smith]

I mean, probably plenty are, but also, like, there are a lot of kids these days who are just sick at chess too.

[Unknown Host]

That's true too. Yeah, you got both ends. You got the TikTok brain, but then you got the people that have access to the information at such a young age because of social media and their actually using it.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So, yeah, you got both ends of the stick. And you see that with the Olympics, we win every year, but we're also one of the unhealthiest countries. But we got really good athletes on the other end of it.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It's interesting, right?

[Dan Smith]

It is really interest. Like, unusual times to be alive.

[Unknown Host]

Where does the US Rank in terms of poker professionals? Are we still the best country?

[Dan Smith]

I would be inclined to think so. Like, it's a challenging thing to say, but yeah, I would say the US Is probably the strongest. There's a lot of variants of poker too, like Texas hold'em. You can play the mixed games, Omaha. So I generally think about Texas hold'em.

[Unknown Host]

Same. Yeah, I was mainly asking about that. Cause that's the biggest one.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Um, I would say the Americans are probably the best.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. Because I see some big games out there in Asia.

[Dan Smith]

There are some big games out there in Asia. Those aren't usually open to everyone. You know, like the Triton Games. You're talking about Triton the Turn. They have tournaments that are open to everyone. And that's a format I love about poker. You know, like 2pm start, everyone with the money could show up. Great. And then sometimes they have like cash games and those are like invitation only. They try to like make it such that the games aren't too tough.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Thing.

[Unknown Host]

What do you think of this new era of these games being streamed on YouTube and social media.

[Dan Smith]

I think they are making some good content for me. Some of, like, those really big poker games are more kind of like reality TV than, like, poker, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

I personally don't care to watch, like, a bunch of people, like, just because, like, hey, they have $300,000 in front of them if none of them really know how to play or they're like, they're intentionally playing bad for me, I don't care to watch it. But, like, if it's reality TV for some people and, like, they enjoy it, cool. Just for me personally doesn't do it.

[Unknown Host]

I could see that. Yeah, I asked that because I've. I've actually never seen you play in those, so I wondered why you didn't.

[Dan Smith]

Like those live stream games I've played sometimes. Generally it's kind of political and I mean, if you're running a poker game and you're having everyone buy in for $200,000 and you could be playing against me, who's very good, or this other person who's drinking and not very good, you're gonna make a lot more money with that other person in the table. Right.

[Unknown Host]

So they don't. Yeah, you're a shark at that table.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

That's probably why they're not inviting you as much as you used to get invited.

[Dan Smith]

I get to play in those sort of games like, a couple of times a year, and I enjoy it when I do.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Because you're. You're just a fan of the game. So you, you want to see high quality poker being played.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, if I'm. If you're gonna. If I was gonna go the other route, I would like. I would just rather like full on watch an episode of Jersey Shore than that. You know, I would say in a.

[Unknown Host]

Way it's good though, overall, because it's bringing a lot of new players. Would you agree with that?

[Dan Smith]

I think poker is doing quite well and I think the streams are a huge part of it. I'm actually not super knowledgeable about, like, the modern content era, but it does seem like YouTube poker stuff is, like, huge.

[Unknown Host]

It's crushing it. There's guys pulling up to the casinos in Vegas with cameras. You probably played at some of these tables and they're just filming every hand and some people get annoyed. But it is interesting.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. I think there's, like, a way to do it that's like, respectful and doesn't slow down the game. And then also there are just some security concerns. Like if a phone is like. Like if you're playing really big money poker, there are going to be people who are trying to like, con you. And it's just like, okay, maybe like a new thing is like if a camera could like see the cards off the deck, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. You never know. People have sneaky ways of cheating these days, Right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, how's that happen to you where you were at a game and you felt like you got cheated or slighted?

[Dan Smith]

I don't think so, but it's something that you have to, like, be on the lookout for.

[Unknown Host]

Well, that's impressive because you played a lot of poker and I felt like that was a more common issue in some.

[Dan Smith]

I mean, to some degrees it probably does happen. If someone's going to be doing it, they're going to be good at it. Might be hard to catch.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

But for the most part, like the people that I play with, I know and trust. Like I go to these Triton tournaments and I feel like really secure in the game security right now.

[Unknown Host]

Well, I saw, saw one clip of you with, I think Martin Cabral. Was that in the World Series?

[Dan Smith]

That was the WSOP250K.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And he was like staring at the back of the card and it was all.

[Dan Smith]

I mean, it wasn't just that. It was that like. I don't know if you saw this. He was like doing this thing, like putting his nail into the car.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, really?

[Dan Smith]

That kind of blew up in a sloppy way. I had some choice comments for him. If I could go back in time, I would just have said something more along the lines of like, if you are doing something like this into the card, whether you're marking it or you're not, that's against the rules and you don't get to play, you know, like, do you understand about card marking?

[Unknown Host]

No, I didn't know that was a rule, actually.

[Dan Smith]

So the reason that, like, cards work is when you see, like the back of the cards, they're all look the same, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

If you put marks into some of them, you could be like, oh, that has a fingernail in the corner. Maybe that is the ace of diamonds, you know, so he was like doing a thing that looked like it. And people said he wasn't marking him after the fact, but it sure looks like it, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Got it. But aren't they only using the cards once in the World Series?

[Dan Smith]

No, they use those car. Especially on tv. They use RFID cards.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Which are more expensive. They use the cards a bunch.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, got it.

[Dan Smith]

And also, like, at some venues, it is a thing that come up, like you're asking for, like, new decks kind of regularly, and they're like, ooh, each deck is like $20. But like, sure. But it's a quarter million dollar tournament.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I saw some crazy stat where they used like, so many cards at that tournament. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. I think he's an interesting player. I feel like he does it on purpose, just getting people's heads.

[Dan Smith]

I think it is definitely trying to unsettle people.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I think that's part of his strategy because he's done it so many times, so many different games. So at this point, it's not a coincidence.

[Dan Smith]

Oh, it's. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a thing that's been happening for many years.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Because when you are angry, you play different, Right. They call it tilting.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Some people. People handle emotions different, differently. But yeah, you can be frustrated or unsettled or like, in the back of your mind, if you're asking yourself, like, is this game on the up and up?

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

You're questioning, then it's harder to play.

[Unknown Host]

Did you feel like he affected your play by doing that and you got angry?

[Dan Smith]

I think I was able to maintain my composure and play really well. I think I kept it together well and, like, I was able to use. I think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I'm gonna really lock in. Like, there are certain things when you play poker. Like, you know how there's a timer.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

If you're being, like, really diligent, like, the best thing to do is probably to act at 28 seconds every time. So you don't have any Tim tells. And in some situations, like, you're like, I already know what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna. Gonna act in. Okay. It's like, you know what? I don't like the way this Martin guy is acting. Every time I'm playing against him. I'm gonna try to do everything perfectly. You know, I'm not gonna give him an inch.

[Unknown Host]

Interesting.

[Dan Smith]

I think I was able to use it to.

[Unknown Host]

To lock in the game within the game.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

That's why I love poker, because there. There's another game of Thrones of it that people don't see or think about.

[Dan Smith]

There are a lot of mind games and is. Even if things get like, more technical and computery playing the player and just like, I'm here, you're there. This guy just bet all of his money. Does he have it or not? That's still a huge part of the game.

[Unknown Host]

Interesting. When the computer started becoming everywhere, is that something you embraced right away or did it take some time?

[Dan Smith]

I was a little resistant to it and kind of ironically, it was kind of what part of what led me away from chess Many years ago, when you started having to use the computer, it just became less fun, more technical.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

And then I, I saw that happening. Happening with poker.

[Unknown Host]

Deja vu. Right?

[Dan Smith]

It makes sense.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Yeah. With chess it was a big deal. Right. It kind of ruined the fun for a lot of people.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I'm. It requires a lot. Like it's a different kind of work and like you could be very, very well prepared now, which is a huge advantage.

[Unknown Host]

Right? Yeah. Because I watched the old Chess games on YouTube like Bobby Fischer and Andrew Tate's dad, and they were all over the place. It was really fun to watch. But because they didn't have these engines telling them this was the best move.

[Dan Smith]

You know, it's just a complete game changer.

[Unknown Host]

And that's how poker was back in the day too, right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Like you used to be figuring stuff out, coming up with some of your own strategies. Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. Yeah. Because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too, so they'll kind of throw you off. Right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Cuz they know that, you know. That's so funny, man. Yeah. Cuz everyone in the high, high stakes has the computers. Pretty much they're using them. Right.

[Dan Smith]

I would say basically all of like the. If you're a very serious player, you're studying with it to some degree. And that's why even some of the amateurs too.

[Unknown Host]

Really? Wow. That's why I was surprised when Bryn Kenning came on. He said he doesn't use it at all and he's still getting pretty good results.

[Dan Smith]

It brings one of a kind.

[Unknown Host]

Right, but that's not a common thing.

[Dan Smith]

It is very much not a common thing. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. And Hellmuth is another one too. But he's not playing the high stakes events.

[Dan Smith]

He doesn't really. Yeah, he does. I would say like the biggest tournaments are where like the most serious competition goes down and he hasn't ever really been one to participate in this.

[Unknown Host]

What's the biggest buy in you've played in?

[Dan Smith]

I Have played in either three or four one million dollar tournaments.

[Unknown Host]

Holy crap.

[Dan Smith]

I've had and I've happened to have great results there. Three times in a row I got third place.

[Unknown Host]

Damn. It's impressive man. Well done.

[Dan Smith]

It is impressive. Also super fortunate, but yeah, it's a fun streak.

[Unknown Host]

What percentage of that was lucky then? Cuz you say fortunate.

[Dan Smith]

On any given day. If you play a tournament like say there's 50 players, if you're the best player in the field, maybe you'll win like one out of 35 times type. Oh, that's it. Most of the time you just don't win, you know.

[Unknown Host]

So 3% chance if you're the best player in the field to win a 50 person tournament.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. And like that's crazy. So anytime you win it is just hugely fortunate. Like luck in is like the biggest factor but like you can give yourself better chances to get lucky.

[Unknown Host]

Right. Because there's a lot of players that will make the final table. So that to me is, is a lot of skill. Right. Because if you're constantly making the final table, that's not just luck over a.

[Dan Smith]

Big enough sample size. Like I've started playing the very big tournaments in 2012. The fact that I'm still around doing it is like okay now like the results are starting.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

To be indicative. But even like you can just have a great year and maybe not be that skilled of a player, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. If you just play against people worse than you. Right.

[Dan Smith]

Or no, you play against good people and you just happen to get lucky, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

Like you could be an underdog in a tournament and still win.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. You've probably seen that all the time. Does that annoy you when you see someone worse than you winning?

[Dan Smith]

No, I mean it just kind of. It's why you get to play poker for. For big money compared to like chess, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

So you just got to embrace it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. At the end of the day, it'll never be all skill. There's going to be luck involved and.

[Dan Smith]

That'S why it's a great game to gamble on relative to say like chess or tennis, you know, when you just. If you just know one side's gonna win, you're not gonna play for money.

[Unknown Host]

Right. That's true. That's really cool. Are you playing anything online or are you all in person?

[Dan Smith]

I play very small amounts online. I actually messed around last night on WSOP.com and I got second in the 500 mystery bounty event.

[Unknown Host]

Oh nice.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, so I miss around in those events a Little bit. But other than that I don't play much online.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's a small buying for you. 500.

[Dan Smith]

It was mostly like. Yeah, it's a little something to do, you know. But yeah, it's on the small side. I've a little bit is I'm going to try in Monte Monte Carlo in like 10 days. And I did want to just get some reps and see some cards like at the Rust off. And mostly just like it's a fun thing to do.

[Unknown Host]

Right. You say Russ. So you haven't been playing for a little bit?

[Dan Smith]

The wsop? I played through like early July and then it was a couple months. Playing very little. A few. And then there were some tournaments at the Aria a couple weeks ago.

[Unknown Host]

Got it.

[Dan Smith]

Generally it's like I'll have like two weeks, like when I go to Triton, I'll play every day. And then you get like a few weeks or a month off.

[Unknown Host]

Got it. Yeah. Because you probably get burnt out, right. Playing two weeks straight.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. And also if you're playing like these tournaments like at Triton basically every day, if you win the tournaments, a million dollars, you come back to Vegas and like maybe the tournament that'll be going on will be like a 1k or like it doesn't really like excite you anything.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Why do you think all the big tournaments are overseas, not in the US.

[Dan Smith]

Some of it is about like laws about getting the money in there. And also just like the companies that run it are like Triton based in Asia, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that makes sense. I never even thought about the laws. But yeah, that's. That's a lot of money. So anti monitoring, anti laundering, Larry.

[Dan Smith]

And if you had like a million dollar tournament in London, you have to go through like the London banks like it. It's much, it's more of a hassle than if like you say you're in Monte Carlo or the rules are a lot like smoother.

[Unknown Host]

Right? Yeah. Imagine wiring the money and they put it on hold and you're freaking out.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Damn. There. Yeah. The money laundering thing, there was a casino like a week ago. It might have been Resorts World or something, but they just got a huge fine because they were allowing people to gamble like high limits.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, that seems to be. Have been happening a lot over the years.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that makes sense because they're. Who knows where they got the money. But yeah, that's a whole nother podcast. I want to talk about the health side of things. You bought a $10,000 cold plunge.

[Dan Smith]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

That's awesome. What brand was that?

[Dan Smith]

I got the plunge one.

[Unknown Host]

Plunge1plunge.com. Yeah, I've been looking into that one.

[Dan Smith]

I would not get that one.

[Unknown Host]

Really.

[Dan Smith]

If you spend that kind of money on a cold plunge, like, the support aspect should be really good. And when I've had issues, it's just been a complete disaster.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. Good to know.

[Dan Smith]

Now that it's working a bit better, I'm, like, happy with it. But if I can go back in time, I would have gotten a different product.

[Unknown Host]

Interesting. Yeah. Some of them are really expensive, and I don't know what the. The main differences.

[Dan Smith]

I think, like, they're pretty similar. And, like, I also think, like, you could probably get, like, a great one for like, 5K instead of, like, going up to, like, the 13K ones. But generally, as a thing, like, I absolutely love them. Just maybe not the one. Not the one I have, but, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

That'S probably what I'll do. I just got a 5K infrared sauna, so I want to do some hot, cold therapy.

[Dan Smith]

It's the best.

[Unknown Host]

I can't wait.

[Dan Smith]

I also have a sauna and it's just like, basically every night before I go to bed, and it makes me feel wonderful.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Are you big into the biohacking health stuff?

[Dan Smith]

I try to take good care of myself. Uh, some of, like, I'm not like, super crazy about it, but I try to be very active. I try to generally eat reasonably, you know, and like, the things that I enjoy doing, I just. I do them every day.

[Unknown Host]

I feel like any little edge at your level is. Is worth it.

[Dan Smith]

Totally. And also just walking around feeling good.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Is great.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Because the diet, I mean, there's probably players that eat like shit. They don't even realize it's affecting the way they think when they're playing poker.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like, it could really get to your brain.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. I feel that.

[Unknown Host]

Like, you see Negrano, who's vegetarian. It's interesting.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways to eat in a way that you like, you'll feel good and. But I think just knowing your body and what works for you, you know, like, some people eat carbs and, like, get sleepy, and other people I think can function well on it.

[Unknown Host]

Absolutely. I cannot.

[Dan Smith]

Honestly, I can't either.

[Unknown Host]

I have the gene break for it. Have you done a gene test? I haven't look into those. It's really important information.

[Dan Smith]

I'll give it a whirl.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Shout out to Gary Braca that. That changed my life. I found out I Had this. It's called the gene. But yeah, mthfr. Basically half the population has this and they don't even know. You can't eat pretty much all bread in the US or grains, which is a lot of different food in the us so.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, it's not something I'm super informed about, but, like, I'd believe it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. All right. This was an interesting take you had. I'm big on food and I saw you post your favorite restaurants in Vegas. You. You posted Ramen Boys is the best ramen in Vegas.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But not just VEGAS in the U.S. you said that.

[Dan Smith]

I've had. I absolutely loved it. I've been to Japan like five times. So unlike Ramen was the thing that really stood out. Have you had Ramen Boys?

[Unknown Host]

I haven't.

[Dan Smith]

It's unbelievable. Really? Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. I'll go there tonight. I'll text you how I like it.

[Dan Smith]

I appreciate that.

[Unknown Host]

And then your best pizza spot. I've never even heard of this spot. Double Zero Pizza.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Growing up in New Jersey, I like pizza. East coast thing. And the stereotype is it's hard to get good pizza on the west Coast. But I think that place is real good. Interesting and like fun vibes too.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, where is that spot?

[Dan Smith]

Is that also Chinatown? I want to say it's on Spring Mountain.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. I love Chinatown.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I'm there at least once a week.

[Dan Smith]

I feel like that's like the best food in Vegas, for sure.

[Unknown Host]

I agree. Yeah. It's slept on because the Strip, you're paying triple the price for the same thing.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Some Vegas people are like, totally anti strip. I think it's worth doing sometimes, you know, like, okay, you're paying up for a bit, but like, also some of the stuff is just cool. Good vibes.

[Unknown Host]

I agree. Yeah. I'll go there for an experience knowing. Knowing I'm going to pay double or triple. But it's. It's fun night out with friends. Yeah. I feel that a lot of locals don't even go to the Strip. I've heard that a lot.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But it's kind of like whatever. Like, if I want to go to the sphere and spend 200 bucks on dinner and have a fun night, let's do it.

[Dan Smith]

It's a special thing that you get to do sometimes. Have you seen any shows at the Sphere?

[Unknown Host]

Not yet. Have you?

[Dan Smith]

I saw the Eagles this weekend. Nice. As a musical venue, it. The Sphere is just unbelievable. And like, it was a great show that they're older, but, like, they can still play.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I noticed all their musical acts are the older bands, so I can't really relate.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I think at some point they're gonna get, like, more modern bands that. And it'll be something that's cool. But I would recommend seeing something there.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, I might see that nature show there. I wanted to see the ufc, but it was sick. You went to that, too?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. I saw the videos. It looked nuts.

[Dan Smith]

I was very skeptical. Like, I thought the. It wasn't gonna look good. And then I get there and was like, oh, this is spectacular.

[Unknown Host]

Wow, that's cool. Do you go to a lot of shows in Vegas?

[Dan Smith]

Whenever there's someone that I'm excited about seeing, I love seeing live music. When there's someone I'm excited about, I'll make a point to do it.

[Unknown Host]

That's one of the best parts about Vegas, for sure. Every week there's something.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Something major. Now we're getting NBA, apparently. Mlb. I'm excited about my real estate out here.

[Dan Smith]

Vegas has been doing some cool stuff the last several years.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. You've been here a while.

[Dan Smith]

I moved out here when I was 20, and then I keep leaving and coming back.

[Unknown Host]

Crazy. You ever think about retiring poker?

[Dan Smith]

I definitely have given it some thought. Um, at this point, I still really enjoy competing in the big tournaments. Um, Like, I'm going to Monaco for two weeks. I can't think of something that I would be doing that would be more enjoyable. Wow. Or maybe not like, enjoyment. Like, it's hard competition, but I think it's, like, a great part of my life, and I enjoy it, and I would need a compelling reason to give it up, you know?

[Unknown Host]

That's cool. That's really cool. Yeah. Sounds like you're. You're fulfilled.

[Dan Smith]

I really. It's. Yeah, it's just a. I play. There are some of the guys who play in these tournaments. They're billionaires with all the resources in the world. They can do whatever they want for enjoyment. They're playing these tournaments, you know? Like, I think it's a compelling case that, like, it's fun and exciting.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Poker is great. It brings people together, right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Sit out at a table, meet new friends. How do you treat the. The friendship versus competition aspect of it? Do. Do you find yourself playing differently against your friends?

[Dan Smith]

Definitely not.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, not you.

[Dan Smith]

Once you're there, you have to be, like, locked in. Like, if you people are good enough, that if you're not playing your best, you'll get run over. There are no friends at the poker table.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. You're Michael Jordan. Out here. I love it. I love that dude. Cuz a lot of sports these days. Well, I see this about basketball especially. They're all friends with each other. Like they played travel growing up and everything. So it's like a different game. It's not as physical, you know.

[Dan Smith]

H. Yeah. I suppose if you've like grown up with somebody, maybe you'll be a little less inclined to like throw an elbow.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. But you've got that switch that you could kind of turn off that friendship.

[Dan Smith]

It's. I think it's just a matter of like, you got each hand. You kind of have to play your cards the way they need to be played, you know? Yeah. Regardless of who you're playing against, any.

[Unknown Host]

Rivalries you have people that you have gone up against a lot.

[Dan Smith]

Probably like Cabral was like the most heated one over the years, but other than like, I mean, there's been plenty of people that I've been competing with. Like, like I was saying, I started playing the big tournaments in 2012. There are some people that like even playing that I've been competing with at that level basically since, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Right. What percentage of those guys are still around that you played with in 2012, you think?

[Dan Smith]

Maybe like 10%.

[Unknown Host]

That's it. Wow.

[Dan Smith]

People generally only are at the top for a few years and like in some cases it's like, okay, people do retire. Either they're not winning anymore or it's like, okay, time to have a family or like move on to something else.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. 10. That's a lot lower than I thought it'd be.

[Dan Smith]

Just an off the cuff maybe. But like, of people who are playing all of the big tournaments back then, I would guess that there are like around 10 who still compete at the highest level, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. Yeah. You don't see the guys we used to watch on tv, you don't see many of them around. I was talking to Negronu about this when he came on. Not many.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. And like the people that grew up on tv, I would say like they were even like a couple generations ago, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[Dan Smith]

Like the Mike Matisau types.

[Unknown Host]

I don't even know what that is.

[Dan Smith]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

I might have been too young for that one.

[Dan Smith]

Like, classic. Did you like watch WSOP on like the money maker stuff?

[Unknown Host]

That was. I was like in middle school, but yeah. I caught like. That was the first time I saw poker. Moneymaker.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, that's. I saw that on TV and got into it too.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

He was a big name at that time, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Right. He's still playing actually some in the World Series.

[Dan Smith]

Moneymaker.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, he had a pretty good year either like last year or the year before.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that was impressive. Moneymaker, man. So that's why you got into poker. That's crazy.

[Dan Smith]

See it on TV.

[Unknown Host]

You were 13, you said, right?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah. Chess, I was like kind of struggling with, I was plateauing. I couldn't make the master title and I saw poker on TV and it's just like they are playing so much less seriously, you know?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Like even like a low level chess tournament, people are locked, trying their hardest.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

I'm like, yo, they're playing for a huge prize and like no one's even trying. Yeah, it's weird.

[Unknown Host]

I love that. Yeah. I only play five minute chess because I just, I don't have the patience for classical, man.

[Dan Smith]

There's a big thing in between. Like, like at five minutes, I would say like by the end of the game you're always just super rushing, you know. And I think it is nice to sometimes play games where like you can actually play out at the end.

[Unknown Host]

Fair. Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

But on the other then, then you're spending 30 minutes on a game of chess rather than 10, right?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Dan Smith]

Five to 10 is, is, that's, it's a huge jump.

[Unknown Host]

It is. Yeah. You don't have time in five minutes to think. Some people play one minute.

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I'm, I, I dabble with it.

[Unknown Host]

Oh yeah? What's your rating in one minute?

[Dan Smith]

2400.

[Unknown Host]

Holy crap. Oh, so you are a master in one minute.

[Dan Smith]

Online ratings are inflated. Like the master title I view for like only over the board and like the online to over the board ratings. Yeah, there's like a conversion thing there. You know what causes that? More players? I think so there's probably some inflation and just different rating systems. Like I don't exactly know the math behind it.

[Unknown Host]

Got it.

[Dan Smith]

But like I know the highest players in online chess are over 3,000. Compared to like Feed A, the number one rating is like 28.50. So it's generally like you at. You subtract, generally subtract a couple hundred points from your online rating to get your in person rating.

[Unknown Host]

Damn. That's humbling for me because I've been telling everyone I'm a 1350, but I'm probably like an 1150, 1200.

[Dan Smith]

Hard to say. Like I just. But maybe.

[Unknown Host]

No, but you're right because I've seen it all the time. When I played in Tom's Times Square in New York, I got wrecked.

[Dan Smith]

Those guys are tough.

[Unknown Host]

Those guys Are good. Have you ever played out there?

[Dan Smith]

Yeah, I would generally play at Washington Square Park.

[Unknown Host]

Nice.

[Dan Smith]

But yeah, it's kind of like a New York tradition.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. I knew I was screwed when he didn't even tell me his rating. He wouldn't tell me. I was like, all right, this guy's probably really good. Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's a bucket list item to play out there. It was a fun time.

[Dan Smith]

Absolutely. I love going to New York.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Shout out to New York. Growing up in Jersey, I actually didn't like it. Growing up, I didn't have money to enjoy it.

[Dan Smith]

Now being able to spend some money makes a huge difference. Massive. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Well, man, what's next for you and I? I know you got some tournaments coming up.

[Dan Smith]

What else? So I run this charity called Double Up Drive. We are in the processes of starting our big annual drive. I believe it's our 10th year. We've raised $27 million for good causes. Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe, December 3rd. So we're in the phase of like pulling money together, getting like the back end stuff ready to go.

[Unknown Host]

Is it in Vegas?

[Dan Smith]

It's mostly online, the general premises. If I pick out 10, or rather we pick out 10 organizations, um, if you say wanted to support mental health, you could pick out the Strong Minds charity. Any money that you donate, our team will double the year. 100 becomes 200. So it's both like an efficient way to get involved and you could trust that we've done a good job, like the vetting process. So, like, all of the organizations involved are reputable and doing good things with them. Money.

[Unknown Host]

I love that. I'll link it below and I'll donate some money too.

[Dan Smith]

All right. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Unknown Host]

For sure. Thanks for coming on, Dan. That was fun.

[Dan Smith]

It was wonderful.

[Unknown Host]

Yep. Thanks for watching, guys. Check out the link below. See you next time.

[C]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts. With Libsyn Ads. Go to Libsyn ads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.