Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker | Dan Smith DSH #1030

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast - Episode Summary: "Why Chess Masters Dominate High Stakes Poker | Dan Smith DSH #1030"

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Dan Smith, Professional Poker Player
Release Date: December 29, 2024
Duration: Approximately 42 minutes

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Introduction

In the December 29, 2024 episode of the Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly welcomes Dan Smith, a seasoned professional poker player ranked sixth on the all-time money list. The episode delves into Dan's journey from a young chess prodigy to a high-stakes poker champion, exploring the intricate connections between strategic thinking in chess and poker, the impact of technology on both games, and the mental fortitude required to excel in high-pressure environments.

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Guest Background and Career Highlights

Dan Smith shares insights into his illustrious poker career, highlighting his peak ranking of third or fourth on the all-time money list. He recounts a pivotal moment when he secured the third position in a million-dollar tournament won by Brynn Kenny, narrowly missing the top spot.

“I got third in that tournament, and if I had won, I would have made number one.” [00:36]

Dan emphasizes the volatility of poker rankings, noting that big-money tournaments can significantly catapult players up the rankings:

“If you have a few million-dollar tournaments over your career, sample size is going to be that relevant.” [01:13]

He discusses the importance of buy-ins in evaluating a player's skill, suggesting that merely looking at total cashes can be misleading without considering the buy-in amounts.

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Comparing Poker and Chess

Dan's early life as a chess player is a recurring theme, providing a foundation for his strategic approach to poker. He achieved an impressive Elo rating of 2170, just shy of the master level.

“I started when I was like 13 years old. I got a 25 transfer onto this poker site and I started buying like five-dollar games.” [04:37]

The conversation explores the crossover between chess and poker, highlighting mutual respect and similar mindsets required for both games. Dan explains why he transitioned from chess to poker, citing the minimal financial prospects in chess compared to the lucrative opportunities in poker.

“There are a lot of players that will make the final table. So that to me is a lot of skill.” [23:26]

Sean, also a chess enthusiast, engages in a friendly comparison, sharing his own experiences and frustrations with the game's plateauing nature.

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Impact of Technology on Strategy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the role of computers in both chess and poker. Dan reveals his initial resistance to embracing technology in poker, drawing parallels to how computer analysis disrupted his enjoyment of chess.

“I was a little resistant to it and kind of ironically, it was kind of what part of what led me away from chess.” [20:04]

He elaborates on how advanced software has transformed poker strategies, making it easier to find optimal plays but also increasing the complexity of counter-strategies employed by opponents.

“Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be you're just guessing.” [21:00]

Dan notes that serious players now incorporate computer tools into their study routines, elevating the overall competition level.

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Tournaments and the Global Poker Scene

Dan discusses the geographical distribution of major poker tournaments, asserting that the United States remains a stronghold for top poker professionals, despite the significant presence of large tournaments in Asia.

“I would say the Americans are probably the best.” [11:33]

He explains logistical challenges such as money laundering laws and the operational bases of companies like Triton, which predominantly host events in Asia. This environment affects how tournaments are structured and who participates.

The episode also touches on the streaming culture in poker, with Dan expressing mixed feelings about televised tournaments that resemble reality TV more than the strategic game he values.

“Those really big poker games are more kind of like reality TV than like poker, you know?” [12:43]

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Handling Competition and Mental Fortitude

A memorable segment features an incident with Martin Cabral during a WSOP250K tournament, where Cabral appeared to tamper with cards. Dan discusses maintaining composure in the face of such challenges, emphasizing the importance of emotional control and strategic focus.

“I think I was able to maintain my composure and play really well.” [18:38]

He elaborates on how emotional disturbances can lead to tilting, a state where players make suboptimal decisions, and shares his approach to locking in his performance regardless of external distractions.

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Lifestyle, Health, and Personal Interests

Beyond the tables, Dan touches on his commitment to health and wellness, mentioning his investments in cold plunge tubs and infrared saunas. He discusses the importance of physical well-being in maintaining peak mental performance.

“I try to take good care of myself. Some of, like, I'm not super crazy about it, but I try to be very active.” [28:11]

The conversation also veers into personal interests, including favorite restaurants in Las Vegas, with Dan recommending Ramen Boys and Double Zero Pizza for their exceptional quality.

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Philanthropy and Future Plans

In the closing segments, Dan highlights his philanthropic efforts through the Double Up Drive, a charity initiative aimed at raising funds for various good causes by leveraging donations to double the impact.

“We've raised $27 million for good causes. Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe, December 3rd.” [41:00]

Sean expresses admiration for Dan's commitment to giving back, and they discuss potential collaborations and ways listeners can contribute.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Sean thanking Dan for his candid insights and accomplishments. Dan reiterates his passion for poker and his ongoing dedication to competing at the highest levels, while also balancing personal well-being and charitable endeavors.

“Thank you. I appreciate that.” [42:12]

Listeners are encouraged to support Dan's Double Up Drive and explore the valuable lessons shared about strategic thinking, resilience, and the evolving landscape of competitive games.

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Notable Quotes:

• “If you have a few million dollar tournaments over your career, sample size is going to be that relevant.” — Dan Smith [01:13]
• “I was a little resistant to [technology] and kind of ironically, it was kind of what part of what led me away from chess.” — Dan Smith [20:04]
• “There are no friends at the poker table.” — Dan Smith [35:10]
• “We've raised $27 million for good causes. Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe, December 3rd.” — Dan Smith [41:00]

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Key Takeaways:

• Strategic Parallels: The skills honed in chess, such as strategic planning and mental discipline, significantly benefit high-stakes poker players.
• Technology's Double-Edged Sword: While computers and software have advanced game strategies, they have also introduced new layers of complexity and competition.
• Luck vs. Skill: In poker, while skill determines long-term success, luck plays a pivotal role in short-term outcomes, especially in large tournaments.
• Mental Fortitude: Maintaining emotional control and focus is crucial for success in high-pressure poker environments.
• Philanthropy: Successful professionals like Dan Smith leverage their platforms to support charitable causes, amplifying their impact beyond the game.

This episode offers a comprehensive look into the mind of a top-tier poker player, providing valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs and professionals seeking to navigate competitive and high-stakes environments.

Transcript

[A]

Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too, so they'll kind of throw you off, right?

[A]

Yeah, no doubt.

[B]

Yeah. Because they know that you know. All right, guys, poker professional Dan Smith here today. Thanks for coming on, man.

[A]

Thanks for having me. It's gonna be fun.

[B]

Absolutely. Six on the all time money list, climbing up. Is that the highest you've ever been?

[A]

I. I've gotten as high as either third or fourth. When Brynn Kenny won the big million dollar tournament, I got third in that tournament and if I had won, I would have made number one.

[B]

Oh, wow. So you were right there.

[A]

It was in the hunt. Yeah.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

But like also that tournament was like, it was so big that it like really just catapults you up, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I noticed because I've looked at the list and pretty much 80% of the cashes seem to be from like a few events. Yeah, it's like a big cash out, like a $10 million payout, right?

[A]

Something like that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I don't know if that's a good way of judging skill level.

[A]

Oh, definitely not because it just comes.

[B]

Down to a few key tournaments.

[A]

Yeah. If you have a few million dollar tournaments over your career, sample size is going to be that relevant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But something to talk about, what's a.

[B]

Better gauge to test skill level, you think?

[A]

I mean, if you included buy ins in there, like, okay, this person, cash for 55 million and they were in for 35 plus 20. And also I think just like the eye test of like seeing somebody play, how are they handling situations? Like you talk to somebody about poker, in some cases you could just tell right away they know what they're talking about.

[B]

Wow. You could tell just from talking to.

[A]

Them a bit or like if you see someone play a hand, certainly mistakes are obvious enough that it's like pretty indicative that the person's not going to be like a star.

[B]

That makes sense. Yeah, it never shows the buy ins. That's a good point. Because they could have bought in a few times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They could have even lost money and you wouldn't know for sure. Yeah, it happens.

[A]

Like the buy ins are big. Like people. I probably played like 5ish million of buy ins last year, you know.

[B]

Well, wow.

[A]

Maybe more.

[B]

It's pretty wild Yeah, I saw on your Twitter. So last year you won 700k and I think as of last month you Tweeted you're down 700k.

[A]

I don't know if it's still at the WSOP.

[B]

At the WSOP?

[A]

Yeah, a lot of. And like also a $250,000 entry fee, like a 700k swing almost doesn't mean all that much, you know, like 250k tournament, but it's gonna swing a lot.

[B]

Yeah. I guess it's all relative. For someone like you playing high stakes, that 700k is not that much.

[A]

Yeah. And also for, for the big tournaments, plenty of professionals like take on investors or piece themselves out, that sort of thing.

[B]

Got it. Is that something you do or do you fund your, your entire bankroll yourself?

[A]

I take investors for the big tournaments. I think if you're like with tax implications as an American, you kind of have to. Otherwise having a losing year, like it would be such a big negative tax free roll.

[B]

Right. Because you could only write off 6K. Right.

[A]

You could write off losses against winnings, but only over the course of a year. So if you lose a million one year, you win a million the next year, you're break even. But you owe the government 400.

[B]

Holy crap. I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah, it's rough.

[B]

Wow. So there's probably a lot of poker players that, that get wrecked because of that. They don't know that when they're starting out.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Is that something you had to learn along the way?

[A]

I mean, it was like a factor, but like it also, like in the early parts of my career. You're not playing for super high stakes back then. You know, when you're playing smaller, like you, you just kind of learn along the way.

[B]

Right. Were your stakes early on? Like was it gradual increase or were you kind of just one day you just decided to play really high stakes?

[A]

I started when I was like 13 years old. I got a 25 transfer onto this poker site and I started buying like five dollar games, you know, so I started low and then built my way up from there.

[B]

Oh, God. So humble beginnings. Wow. 13. That is an early start.

[A]

I was a chess player when I was really young.

[B]

Yeah, I want to talk about that because I'm a chess player. Ooh, not as good as you. I looked up your Elo, you hit 2000, right?

[A]

I got up to 2170 and 2200 is master.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's always been a goal. Still never quite got there.

[B]

Do you want to potentially revisit that in the future?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

They say with chess, it's. It's tougher as yielder.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, definitely that's the case. There are also, I think, like, the things about getting cover, like, you. You also, if you just work really hard at it, like, okay, you're a professional basketball player. Your skills are going down in your late 30s. Let's say if you're just some guys playing really casually, this is still definitely be getting better into your 40s, you know? Yeah, I feel the same about most things.

[B]

I feel that, yeah, with all the advancements in health and technology. You see ron playing at 40 now.

[A]

Yeah. And like, okay, maybe he's starting to decline, but, like, in a local league, you can just definitely keep getting better.

[B]

Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I've been at 13, 50 for. For eight months. I've been stuck, man. Yeah, that's the thing with chess.

[A]

You just plateau and it's just like, you stop getting. It's frustrating.

[B]

It's so hard to get better at chess once you're at a certain level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, how long were you stuck at?

[A]

At 2000, maybe like a two years.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then I kind of hung it up.

[B]

You got sick of it?

[A]

It just stopped being fun for me. I realized I was, like, playing because I was good at it, not because I enjoyed it. And I saw that, like, for me to make, like, the next jump, like, I. Maybe I could have been like a 2400 player in the U.S. you know, but, like, there's no future in that, you know, I just thought it would have been a ton of work, and I didn't think the path was there.

[B]

Right. Yeah. The money's off in chess.

[A]

Really, really tough. Yeah.

[B]

Like, you're probably not making much at 2170.

[A]

Basically. 0. I. I think to support yourself, you need to be like, top 10, top 20 in the world, you know?

[B]

Wow. So it's like tennis.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's rough.

[B]

And that's the thing with poker. You don't have to be top 10 to make a living.

[A]

No. I mean, if you're just better than the people you're playing against regularly.

[B]

Right. It's.

[A]

You'll win your fair share.

[B]

So that's why you switch. Were you playing poker while you were playing chess simultaneously or did that?

[A]

There was plenty of overlap.

[B]

Yeah, there was plenty of overlap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. I see a lot of chess players now getting into poker. Have you seen that?

[A]

Yes. I feel like there's always been, like, a good relationship between the two games. Like mutual respect for a lot of.

[B]

Similarities in the mindset.

[A]

You think Some. And I also just think few people game competitively. Like you kind of get it, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also I think a lot of chess players see people making money at poker and like want to give it a whirlwind.

[B]

Hmm. Yeah. I see that.

[A]

The luck factor is a rough thing to deal with though in poker.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Cuz in chess there's probably none. Yeah. The only luck I guess would be if your opponent is off or something.

[A]

I mean if two people are very similar in skill, who wins on a given day is going to come down to like various factors, you know. So there like is a luck factor. Like if you're play 10 games, one is supposed to get five and a half out of 10. Any given game, any. Anything could happen. Like that is a variance or luck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like between two people who are. Difference in skill, like the guy just never wins.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. You're not going to lose some random guy in chess ever. Yeah. Have you been following the chess like the pros still?

[A]

Yeah, I enjoy it.

[B]

Yeah, I enjoy it too. Who's your. I was going to ask you that. I like not going to like this answer. I like Hans Neman.

[A]

It's entertaining and he does have a interesting style. I think he's just kind of like pretty mean a lot.

[B]

And he's got a chip on his shoulder because of what happened. But I like the underdog story. That's why I like him. And he's American.

[A]

I could. I mean it's also is interesting. I've got a lot of people into it.

[B]

It did. Yeah. Who's your guy? Magnus.

[A]

Magnus is just so unbelievably filthy, you know, like it's just like completely. And I. I can't imagine it. Like I'll just have these positions where it just looks like it's completely even and it's like why are you even like continuing to play this on? And then he just grinds the guy down and he just does it over and over again. And like, like I just can't understand how he's just there. That good?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. His end game is insane. So many positions will be tied and he'll come out on top somehow.

[A]

And yeah, like I literally don't know how he does it.

[B]

It's nuts. And. And he, he drinks, he. He does other stuff. He's not just all about chess because a lot of these chess guys are just chess 24 7.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he actually plays poker on the Side, he drinks and has fun.

[A]

I think he clearly, like, values living his life. And he's like, oh, yeah, the World Championship Series isn't fun for me. I'm off it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, you backed out. I mean, those classical games are brutal on you mentally. Was that your format? Did you play a lot of classical?

[A]

If you play in serious tournaments, that's what it comes down to. And I would do a lot of it. I played a tournament a couple years ago here in Vegas in December when I was kind of rusty. And I just remember thinking how insane it is that, like, I was doing that at nine years old, you know? Know, I was just like, I'm like, this is not appropriate for children.

[B]

Like, wow. So you had really good mental fortitude at a. At a very young age, which is impressive because kids these days are just bouncing off the walls.

[A]

I mean, probably plenty are. But also, like, there are a lot of kids these days who are just sick at chess too.

[B]

That's true too. Yeah, you got both ends. You got the TikTok brain, but then you got the people that have access to the information at such a young age because of social media and their actually using it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, you got both ends of the stick. And you see that with the Olympics, we win every year, but we're also one of the unhealthiest countries. But we got really good athletes on the other end of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's interesting, right?

[A]

It is really interest. Like, unusual times to be alive.

[B]

Where does the US Rank in terms of poker professionals? Are we still the best country?

[A]

I would be inclined to think so. Like, it's a challenging thing to say, but yeah, I would say the US Is probably the strongest. There's a lot of variants of poker too, like Texas hold'em. You can play the mixed games, Omaha. So I generally think about Texas hold'em.

[B]

Same. Yeah, I was mainly asking about that. Cause that's the biggest one.

[A]

Yeah. Um, I would say the Americans are probably the best.

[B]

Okay. Because I see some big games out there in Asia.

[A]

There are some big games out there in Asia. Those aren't usually open to everyone. You know, like the Triton Games. You're talking about Triton the Turn. They have tournaments that are open to everyone. And that's a format I love about poker. You know, like 2pm start, everyone with the money could show up. Great. And then sometimes they have like cash games and those are like invitation only. They try to like make it such that the games aren't too tough.

[B]

Yeah. What do you think of this New era of these games being streamed on YouTube and social media.

[A]

I think they are making some good content for me. Some of, like, those really big poker games are more kind of like reality TV than like poker, you know?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I personally don't care to watch, like, a bunch of people, like, just because, like, hey, they have $300,000 in front of them if none of them really know how to play or they're like, they're intentionally playing bad for me, I don't care to watch it. But, like, if it's reality TV for some people and like, they enjoy it, cool. Just for me personally doesn't do it.

[B]

I could see that. Yeah, I asked that because I've. I've actually never seen you play in those, so I wondered why you didn't.

[A]

Like those live stream games I've played sometimes. Generally it's kind of political and I mean, if you're running a poker game and you're having everyone buy in for $200,000 and you could be playing against me, who's very good, or this other person who's drinking and not very good, you're gonna make a lot more money with that other person in the table. Right.

[B]

So they don't. Yeah, you're a shark at that table.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's probably why they're not inviting you as much as you used to get invited.

[A]

I get to play in those sort of games like, a couple of times a year, and I enjoy it when I do.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Because you're. You're just a fan of the game. So you, you want to see high quality poker being played.

[A]

Yeah, if I'm. If you're gonna. If I was gonna go the other route, I would like. I would just rather like full on, watch an episode of Jersey Shore than that. You know, I would say in a.

[B]

Way it's good though, overall, because it's bringing a lot of new players. Would you agree with that?

[A]

I think poker is doing quite well and I think the streams are a huge part of it. I'm actually not super knowledgeable about, like, the modern content era, but it does seem like YouTube poker stuff is like, huge.

[B]

It's crushing it. There's guys pulling up to the casinos in Vegas with cameras. You probably played at some of these tables and they're just filming every hand and some people get annoyed. But it is interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I think there's like, a way to do it that's like, respectful and doesn't slow down the game. And then also there are just some security Concerns, like if a phone is like. Like if you're playing really big money poker, there are going to be people who are trying to like, con you. And it's just like, okay, maybe like a new thing is like if a camera could like see the cards off the deck, you know?

[B]

Yeah. You never know. People have sneaky ways of cheating these days. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, how's that happen to you where you were at a game and you felt like you got cheated or slighted?

[A]

I don't think so, but it's something that you have to like, be on the lookout for.

[B]

Well, that's impressive because you played a lot of poker and I felt like that was a more common issue in some.

[A]

I mean, to some degrees it probably does happen. If someone's going to be doing it, they're going to be good at it. Might be hard to catch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But for the most part, like the people that I play with, I know and trust, like I go to these Triton tournaments and I feel like really secure in the game security, you know.

[B]

Well, I saw, saw one clip of you with, I think Martin Cabral. Was that in the World Series.

[A]

That was the WSOP250K.

[B]

Yeah. And he was like staring at the back of the car and it was.

[A]

And I mean, it wasn't just that. It was that, like, I don't know if you saw this. He was like doing this thing, like putting his nail into the car.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

That kind of blew up in a sloppy way. I had some choice comments for him. If I could go back in time, I would just have said something more along the lines of like, if you are doing something like this into the card, whether you're marking it or you're not, that's against the rules and you don't get to play, you know, like, do you understand about card marking?

[B]

No, I didn't know that was a rule, actually.

[A]

So the reason that, like, cards work is when you see like the back of the cards that I look the same, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you put marks into some of them, you could be like, oh, that has a fingernail in the corner. Maybe that is the ace of diamonds, you know. So he was like doing a thing that looked like it and people said he wasn't marking him after the fact, but it sure looks like it, you know.

[B]

Got it. But aren't they only using the cards once in the World Series?

[A]

No, they use those car. Especially on tv. They use RFID cards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which are more expensive. They use the cards a bunch.

[B]

Oh, got It.

[A]

And also, like, at some venues, it is a thing that come up, like you're asking for like, new decks kind of regularly, and they're like, oh, each deck is like $20. But like, sure, but it's a quarter million dollar tournament.

[B]

Yeah. I saw some crazy stat where they used like so many cards at that tournament. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. I think he's an interesting player. I feel like he does it on purpose, just getting people's heads.

[A]

I think it is definitely trying to unsettle people.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's part of his strategy because he's done it so many times, so many different games. So at this point, it's not a coincidence.

[A]

Oh, it's. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a thing that's been happening for many years.

[B]

Yeah. Because when you are angry, you play different. Right. They call it tilting.

[A]

Yeah. Some people. People handle emotions different, differently. But yeah, you can be frustrated or unsettled or like in the back of your mind, if you're asking yourself, like, is this game on the up and up?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Your question, like, then it's harder to play.

[B]

Did you feel like he affected your play by doing that and you got angry?

[A]

I think I was able to maintain my composure and play really well. I think I kept it together well and like, I was able to use. I think I was able to use those emotions to be like, I'm gonna really lock in. Like, there are certain things when you play poker. Like, you know how there's a timer?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're being, like, really diligent, like, the best thing to do is probably to act at 28 seconds every time. So you don't have any Tim tells. And in some situations, like, you're like, I already know what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna. Gonna act in. Okay. It's like, you know what? I don't like the way this Martin guy is acting. Every time I'm playing against him, I'm gonna try to do everything perfectly. You know, I'm not gonna give him an inch.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So I think I was able to use it to.

[B]

To lock in the game within the game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why I love poker, because there. There's another game of. Of it that people don't see or think about.

[A]

There are a lot of mind games and is. Even if things get like, more technical and computery playing the player and just like, I'm here, you're there. This guy just bet all of his money. Does he have it or not? That's still A huge part of the game.

[B]

Interesting. When the computer started becoming everywhere. Is that something you embraced right away or did it take some time?

[A]

I was a little resistant to it and kind of ironically, it was kind of what part of what led me away from chess Many years ago when you started having to use the computer, it just became less fun, more technical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I, I saw that happening. Happening with poker.

[B]

Deja vu, right?

[A]

It makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. With chess it was a big deal, Right. It kind of ruined the fun for a lot of people.

[A]

Yeah, I'm. It requires a lot, like it's a different kind of work and like you could be very, very well prepared now, which is a huge advantage.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Because I watched the old Chess games on YouTube, like Bobby Fischer and Andrew Tate's dad, and they were all over the place. It was really fun to watch. But because they didn't have these engines telling them this was the best move.

[A]

You know, it's just a complete game changer.

[B]

And that's how poker was back in the day too, right?

[A]

Yeah. Like you used to be figuring stuff out, coming up with some of your own strategies. Now you could pretty regularly just like get the answer, but it used to just be you're just guessing, you know, and like you think you have like a good strategy, but maybe there's just like a counter strategy that you didn't consider, you know.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Because your opponent probably knows the right strategy too. So they'll kind of throw you off, Right?

[A]

Yeah, no doubt.

[B]

Yeah. Cuz they know that, you know. That's so funny, man. Yeah. Cuz everyone in the high, high stakes has the computers pretty much they're using them. Right.

[A]

I would say basically all of like the. If you're a very serious player, you're studying with it to some degree. And that's why even some of the amateurs too.

[B]

Really? Wow. That's why I was surprised when Bryn Kenning came on. He said he doesn't use it at all and he's still getting pretty good results.

[A]

It brings one of a kind.

[B]

Right. But that's not a common thing.

[A]

It is a very much not a common thing. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And Hellmuth is another one too, but he's not playing the high stakes events.

[A]

He doesn't really. Yeah, he does. I would say like the biggest tournaments are where like the most serious competition goes down and he hasn't ever really been one to participate in this.

[B]

What's the biggest buy in you've played in?

[A]

I have played in either three or four. One Million dollar tournaments.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

I've had and I've happened to have great results there. Three times in a row I got third place.

[B]

Damn. It's impressive man. Well done.

[A]

It is impressive. Also super fortunate, but yeah, it's a fun streak.

[B]

What percentage of that was lucky then? Cuz you say fortunate.

[A]

On any given day. If you play a tournament like say there's 50 players, if you're the best player in the field, maybe you'll win like one out of 35 times type. Oh, that's it. Most of the time you just don't win, you know.

[B]

So 3% chance if you're the best player in the field to win a 50 person tournament.

[A]

Yeah. And like that's crazy. So anytime you win it is just hugely fortunate. Like luck in is like the biggest factor but like you can give yourself better chances to get lucky.

[B]

Right. Because there's a lot of players that will make the final table. So that to me is, is a lot of skill. Right. Because if you're constantly making the final table, that's not just luck over a.

[A]

Big enough sample size. Like I've started playing the very big tournaments in 2012. The fact that I'm still around doing it is like okay. Now like the results are starting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To be indicative. But even like you can just have a great year and maybe not be that skilled of a player, you know.

[B]

Yeah. If you just play against people worse than you. Right.

[A]

Or no, you play against good people and you just happen to get lucky, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you could be an underdog in a tournament and still win.

[B]

Yeah. You've probably seen that all the time. Does that annoy you when you see someone worse than you winning?

[A]

No, I mean it just kind of. It's why you get to play poker for, for big money compared to like chess, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So you just got to embrace it.

[B]

Yeah. At the end of the day, it'll never be all skill. There's going to be luck involved and.

[A]

That'S why it's a great game to gamble on relative to say like chess or tennis, you know, when you just, if you just know one side's gonna win, you're not gonna play for money.

[B]

Right. That's true. That's really cool. Are you playing anything online or are you all in person?

[A]

I play very small amounts online. I actually messed around last night on WSOP.com and I got second in the 500 mystery bounty event.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

Yeah, so I miss around in those events a little bit, but other than that I don't play much online.

[B]

Yeah, that's a small buy in for you. 500.

[A]

It was mostly like. Yeah, it's a little something to do, you know. But yeah, it's on the small side. I've a little bit is I'm going to try in Monte. Monte Carlo in like 10 days. And I did want to just get some reps and see some cards like at the Rust off and mostly just like it's a fun thing to do.

[B]

Right. You say Russ. So you haven't been playing for a little bit?

[A]

The wsop? I played through like early July and then it was a couple months playing very little. A few. And then there were some tournaments at the Aria a couple weeks ago.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Generally it's like I'll have like two weeks, like when I go to Triton, I'll play every day and then you get like a few weeks or a month off.

[B]

Got it. Yeah. Because you probably get burnt out, right. Playing two weeks straight.

[A]

Yeah. And also if you're playing like these tournaments like at Triton basically every day, if you win the tournaments, a million dollars, you come back to Vegas and like maybe the tournament that'll be going on will be like a 1k or like it doesn't really like excite you anything.

[B]

Yeah. Why do you think all the big tournaments are overseas, not in the US.

[A]

Some of it is about like laws about getting the money in there and also just like the companies that run it are like Triton based in Asia, you know.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. I never even thought about the laws. But yeah, that's, that's a lot of money. So anti monitoring, anti laundering, Larry.

[A]

And if you had like a million dollar tournament in London, you have to go through like the London banks like it, it's much, it's more of a hassle than if like you say you're in Monte Carlo or the rules are a lot like smoother.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Imagine wiring the money and they put it on hold and you're freaking out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Damn there. Yeah. The money laundering thing. There was a casino like a week ago. Might have been Resorts World or something, but they just got a huge fine because they were allowing people to gamble like high limits.

[A]

Yeah, that seems to be. Have been happening a lot over the years.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense because they're. Who knows where they got the money. But yeah, that's a whole nother podcast. I want to talk about the health side of things. You bought a $10,000 cold plunge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's awesome. What brand was that?

[A]

I got the Plunge one, plunge one, plunge dot com.

[B]

Yeah, I've been looking into that one.

[A]

I would not get that one.

[B]

Really.

[A]

If you spend that kind of money on a cold plunge, like, the support aspect should be really good. And when I've had issues, it's just been a complete disaster.

[B]

Wow. Good to know.

[A]

Now that it's working a bit better, I'm, like, happy with it. But if I can go back in time, I would have gotten a different product.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. Some of them are really expensive, and I don't know what the. The main difference is.

[A]

I think, like, they're pretty similar. And, like, I also think, like, you could probably get, like, a great one for, like, 5K instead of, like, going up to, like, the 13K ones. But generally, as a thing, like, I absolutely love them. Just maybe not the one. Not the one I have, but, yeah.

[B]

That'S probably what I'll do. I just got a 5K infrared sauna, so I want to do some hot cold therapy.

[A]

It's the best.

[B]

Yeah, I can't wait.

[A]

I also have a sauna and it's just like, basically every night before I go to bed. And it makes me feel wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. Are you big into the biohacking health stuff?

[A]

I try to take good care of myself. Uh, some of, like, I'm not, like, super crazy about it, but I try to be very active. I try to generally eat reasonably, you know, and, like, the things that I enjoy doing, I just. I do them every day.

[B]

I feel like any little edge at your level is. Is worth it.

[A]

Totally. And also just walking around feeling good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is great.

[B]

Yeah. Because the diet, I mean, there's probably players that eat like shit. They don't even realize it's affecting the way they think when they're playing poker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it could really get to your brain.

[A]

Yeah, I feel that.

[B]

Like, you see Negrano, who's vegetarian. It's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways to eat in a way that, like, you'll feel good and. But I think just knowing your body and what works for you, you know, like, some people eat carbs and, like, get sleepy, and other people I think can function well on it.

[B]

Absolutely. I cannot.

[A]

Honestly, I can't either.

[B]

I have the gene break for it. Have you done a gene test? I haven't look into those. It's really important information.

[A]

I'll give it a whirl.

[B]

Yeah. Shout out to Gary Brucka that. That changed my life. I found out I had this. It's called the gene. But yeah, mthfr. Basically half the population has this and they don't even know. You can't eat pretty much all bread in the US or grains, which is a lot of different food in the us so.

[A]

Yeah, it's not something I'm super informed about, but, like, I'd believe it.

[B]

Yeah. All right. This was a interesting take you had. I'm big on food and I saw you post your favorite restaurants in Vegas. You. You posted Ramen Boys is the best ramen in Vegas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But not just VEGAS in the U.S. you said that.

[A]

I've had. I absolutely loved it. I've been to Japan like five times. So unlike Ramen was the thing that really stood out. Have you had Ramen Boys?

[B]

I haven't.

[A]

It's unbelievable. Really? Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I'll go there tonight. I'll text you how I like it.

[A]

I appreciate that.

[B]

And then your best pizza spot. I've never even heard of this spot. Double Zero Pizza.

[A]

Yeah. Growing up in New Jersey, I like pizza. East coast thing. And the stereotype is it's hard to get good pizza on the west Coast. But I think that place is real good. Interesting and like fun vibes too.

[B]

Okay, where is that spot?

[A]

Is that also Chinatown? I want to say it's on Spring Mountain.

[B]

Okay. I love Chinatown.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm there at least once a week.

[A]

I feel like that's like the best food in Vegas. For sure.

[B]

I agree. Yeah. It's slept on. Because the Strip, you're paying triple the price for the same thing.

[A]

Yeah. Some Vegas people are like totally anti strip. I think it's worth doing sometimes, you know, like, okay, you're paying up for a bit, but like, also some of the stuff is just cool. Good vibes.

[B]

I agree. Yeah. I'll go there for an experience. Knowing. Knowing I'm going to pay double or triple. But it's. It's fun night out with friends. Yeah. I feel that a lot of locals don't even go to the Strip. I've heard that a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's kind of like whatever. Like, if I want to go to the sphere and spend 200 bucks on dinner and have a fun night, let's do it.

[A]

It's a special thing that you get to do sometimes. Have you seen any shows at the Sphere?

[B]

Not yet. Have you?

[A]

I saw the Eagles this weekend.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

As a musical venue, it. The Sphere is just unbelievable and like, it was a great show that they're older, but like they can still play.

[B]

Yeah. I noticed all their musical acts are the Older bands, so I can't really relate.

[A]

Yeah. I think at some point they're gonna get, like, more modern bands.

[B]

That.

[A]

And it'll be something that's cool. But I would recommend seeing something there.

[B]

Yeah, I might see that nature show there. I wanted to see the ufc, but it was sick. You went to that, too?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. I saw the videos. It looked nuts.

[A]

I was very skeptical. Like, I thought the. It wasn't gonna look good. And then I get there and was like, oh, this is spectacular.

[B]

Wow, that's cool. Do you go to a lot of shows in Vegas?

[A]

Whenever there's someone that I'm excited about seeing, I love seeing live music. When there's someone I'm excited about, I'll make a point to do it.

[B]

That's one of the best parts about Vegas, for sure. Every week there's something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something major. Now we're getting NBA, apparently. Mlb. I'm excited about my real estate out here.

[A]

Vegas has been doing some cool stuff the last several years.

[B]

Yeah. You've been here a while.

[A]

I moved out here when I was 20, and then I keep leaving and coming back.

[B]

Crazy. You ever think about retiring poker?

[A]

I definitely have given it some thought. Um, at this point, I still really enjoy competing in the big tournaments. Um, Like, I'm going to Monaco for two weeks. I can't think of something that I would be doing that would be more enjoyable. Wow. Or maybe not, like, enjoyment. Like, it's hard competition, but I think it's, like, a great part of my life, and I enjoy it, and I would need a compelling reason to give it up, you know?

[B]

That's cool. That's really cool. Yeah. It sounds like you're. You're fulfilled.

[A]

I really.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Yeah, it's just a. I play. There are some of the guys who play in these tournaments. They're billionaires with all the resources in the world. They can do whatever they want for enjoyment. They're playing these tournaments, you know? Like, I think it's a compelling case that, like, it's fun and exciting.

[B]

Yeah. Poker is great. It brings people together, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sit at a table, meet new friends. How do you treat the. The friendship versus competition aspect of it? Do. Do you find yourself playing differently against your friends?

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

Oh, not you.

[A]

Once you're there, you have to be, like, locked in. Like, if you people are good enough, that if you're not playing your best, you'll get run over. There are no friends at the poker table.

[B]

Yeah. You're Michael Jordan out here. I love it. I Love that dude. Cuz a lot of sports these days. Well, I see this about basketball especially. They're all friends with each other. Like they played travel growing up and everything. So it's like a different game. It's not as physical, you know.

[A]

H. Yeah. I suppose if you've like grown up with somebody, maybe you'll be a little less inclined to like throw an elbow.

[B]

Yeah. But you've got that switch that you could kind of turn off that friendship.

[A]

It's. I think it's just a matter of like, you got each hand. You kind of have to play your cards the way they need to be played, you know? Yeah. Regardless of who you're playing against, any.

[B]

Rivalries you have people that you have gone up against a lot.

[A]

Probably like Cabral was like the most heated one over the years. But other than like, I mean, there's been plenty of people that I've been competing with. Like, like I was saying, I started playing the big tournaments in 2012. There are some people that like you've been playing that I've been competing with at that level basically since, you know.

[B]

Right. What percentage of those guys are still around that you played with in 2012, you think?

[A]

Maybe like 10%.

[B]

That's it. Wow.

[A]

People generally only are at the top for a few years and like in some cases it's like, okay, people do retire. Either they're not winning anymore or it's like, okay, time to have a family or like move on to something else. Wow.

[B]

10. That's a lot lower than I thought it'd be.

[A]

Just an off the cuff maybe. But like, of people who are playing all of the big tournaments back then, I would guess that there are like around 10 who still compete at the highest level, you know.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. You don't see the guys we used to watch on tv, you don't see many of them around. I was talking to Negronu about this when he came on. There's not many.

[A]

Yeah. And like the people that grew up on tv, I would say like they were even like a couple generations ago, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like the Mike Matisau types.

[B]

I don't even know what that is.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I might have been too young for that one.

[A]

Like, classic. Did you like watch WSOP on like the Money maker stuff?

[B]

That was, I was like in middle school, but yeah. I caught like that was the first time I saw poker. Moneymaker.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I saw that on TV and got into it too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He was a big name at that time, you know.

[B]

Right. He's still playing actually some in the World Series.

[A]

Moneymaker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, he had a pretty good year either like last year or the year before.

[B]

Yeah, that was impressive. Money maker, man. So that's why you got into poker. That's crazy.

[A]

See it on TV.

[B]

You were 13, you said, right?

[A]

Yeah. Chess I was like kind of struggling with, I was plateauing. I couldn't make the master title and I saw poker on TV and it's just like they are playing so much less seriously, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like even like a low level chess tournament, people are locked, trying their hardest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, yo, they're playing for a huge prize and like no one's even trying. Yeah, it's weird.

[B]

I love that. Yeah. I only play five minute chess because I just, I don't have the patience for classical, man.

[A]

There's a big thing in between. Like, like at five minutes, I would say like by the end of the game you're always just super rushing, you know. And I think it is nice to sometimes play games where like you can actually play out at the end.

[B]

Fair. Yeah.

[A]

But on the other then, then you're spending 30 minutes on a game of chess rather than 10.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Five to 10 is, is that's, it's a huge jump. It is. Yeah. You don't have time in five minutes to think. Some people play one minute.

[A]

Yeah, I'm, I, I dabble with it.

[B]

Oh yeah? What's your rating in one minute?

[A]

2400.

[B]

Holy crap. Oh, so you are a master in one minute.

[A]

Online ratings are inflated. Like the master title I view for like only over the board and like the online to over the board ratings. Yeah, there's like a conversion thing there. You know what causes that? More players? I think so there's probably some inflation and just different rating systems. Like I don't exactly know the math behind it.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

But like I know the highest players in online chess are over 3,000. Compared to like Feed A, the number one rating is like 28.50. So it's generally like you at. You subtract, generally subtract a couple hundred points from your online rating to get your in person rating.

[B]

Damn. That's humbling for me because I've been telling everyone I'm a 1350, but I'm probably like an 1150, 1200.

[A]

Hard to say. Like I just. But maybe.

[B]

No, but you're right because I've seen it all the time. When I played in Tom's Times Square in New York, I got wrecked.

[A]

Those guys are tough.

[B]

Those Guys are good. Have you ever played out there?

[A]

Yeah, I would generally play at Washington Square Park.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

But, yeah, it's kind of like a New York tradition.

[B]

Yeah. I knew I was screwed when he didn't even tell me his rating. He wouldn't tell me. I was like, all right, this guy's probably really good. Yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's a bucket list item to play out there. It was a fun time.

[A]

Absolutely. I love going to New York.

[B]

Yeah. Shout out to New York. Growing up in Jersey, I actually didn't like it. Growing up, I didn't have money to enjoy it.

[A]

Now being able to spend some money makes a huge difference. Massive. Yeah.

[B]

Well, man, what's next for you and I? I know you got some tournaments coming up.

[A]

What else? So I run this charity called Double Up Drive. We are in the processes of starting our big annual drive. I believe it's our 10th year. We've raised $27 million for good causes. Our drive is going to go live this year, I believe, December 3rd. So we're in the phase of, like, pulling money together, getting, like, the back end stuff ready to go.

[B]

Is it in Vegas?

[A]

It's mostly online, the general premises. If I pick out 10, or rather we pick out 10 organizations. If you say wanted to support mental health, you could pick out the Strong Minds charity. Any money that you donate, our team will double. CR100 becomes 200. So it's both, like, an efficient way to get involved and you could trust that we've done a good job, like the vetting process. So, like, all of the organizations involved are reputable and doing good things with them money.

[B]

I love that. I'll link it below and I'll donate some money, too. All right.

[A]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[B]

For sure. Thanks for coming on, Dan. That was fun.

[A]

It was wonderful.

[B]

Yep. Thanks for watching, guys. Check out the link below. See you next time.