Why Clarity in Messaging Builds Billion-Dollar Brands | Donald Miller DSH #1358

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Clarity in Messaging Builds Billion-Dollar Brands"

Podcast: Digital Social Hour
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Donald Miller
Episode: DSH #1358
Date: May 1, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Donald Miller, bestselling author, marketing expert, and founder of StoryBrand, in a candid, wide-ranging conversation with host Sean Kelly. While the episode’s advertised purpose is to unpack why clarity in messaging is crucial to brand success, the discussion organically dives into personal growth, resilience, building confidence, and the psychology behind entrepreneurial and creative journeys. Miller and Kelly dissect lessons from politics, advertising, psychology, and personal hardship, offering a blend of actionable business advice and honest, unfiltered life talk.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Clarity and Simplicity in Messaging

• Sound Bites vs. Sophistication:
  • Miller stresses the importance of clear, concise messaging for audience engagement, lamenting that many brands try to be “clever or cute” instead of effective.
    • "There's almost like this necessity that people feel to be sophisticated or clever or cute, and it costs them." – Donald Miller [04:07]
• Case Study: NFL's 'Crucial Catch' Campaign:
  • Miller critiques the campaign for choosing unclear language over direct calls to action, missing an opportunity to save lives through clarity [03:02–04:07].
• Sound bites and Political Messaging:
  • Comparing Jeb Bush and Donald Trump, Miller illustrates how simple phrases (“Build a wall”) can outstrip complex policy positions for public impact.
    • "People think in sound bites...Jeb Bush, three percent in the polls. Donald Trump — three words, gets elected president." – Donald Miller [04:38–04:58]
• Cognitive Load and Brand Engagement:
  • The brain resists information that requires too much effort to process. Clear, repeated taglines lower that barrier and increase attention [05:13–05:39].
• Big vs. Small Brands:
  • Large brands can afford vagueness due to their cultural cachet; small brands must be crystal clear to win attention and sales.
    • “Most small businesses try to do that and they fail...If you have a small brand...you have to be much, much more clear.” – Donald Miller [16:05–16:20]
• Example of Effective Messaging:
  • Miller’s work for national security: shifting taglines to “Intelligence prepares us to win,” which directly links the service to the listener’s survival [12:45–13:37].

2. Personal Development, Confidence, and the Psychology of Success

• Obsession vs. Talent:
  • Miller questions whether successful people are truly “gifted,” or just “obsessed” — sharing stories of his writing journey and figures like Kobe Bryant and Henry Cloud.
    • “I don’t know if I was naturally gifted. I was naturally obsessed.” – Donald Miller [00:40 & 24:42]
    • “It wasn’t a gift. That was earned.” – Donald Miller, on Henry Cloud’s expertise [26:09]
• Building Confidence through Mastery:
  • Both Kelly and Miller share that confidence comes not from self-affirmation but from genuine achievement and competence in specific domains.
    • “The best thing you can do if you have insecurities is figure out some place that you can win.” – Donald Miller [09:33]
    • “You’ve got to master one thing first...then you can apply it to multiple areas.” – Sean Kelly [11:32]
• Honesty about Insecurity and Addiction:
  • Miller talks candidly about late marriage, insecurity, food addiction, and the importance of personal wins [08:44–09:26].
• Niche Down to Stand Out:
  • Advice to content creators: owning a specific problem is the fastest way to grow; general appeal works better after you’re established [18:21–19:20].

3. Words Shape Identity, Future, and Relationships

• Verbal Habits and Outcomes:
  • The words used about oneself and one's work shape not just public perception, but one’s own trajectory.
    • “The words that come out of your mouth will build your future more than anything else. Even more than what you do.” – Donald Miller [21:10]
• Dangers of Self-Deprecation:
  • Chronic self-deprecating humor can reinforce negative self-images and diminish credibility.
    • “I think it cost me. Because you started manifesting it, right?...People stopped taking me seriously.” – Donald Miller [21:41–21:59]

4. Surviving, Thriving, and the Human Drive

• Survival Asset Mindset:
  • Miller urges listeners to position themselves/brands as “survival assets” — essential to their audience’s safety, success, or happiness.
    • “If you want to sell a product or have people respect and admire you, be known for helping other people survive in some way.” – Donald Miller [13:37]
    • “We think love is unconditional. It’s very conditional...the reason you’re attracted to her is because she’s a survival asset in some way.” [14:25]
• PR Nightmares & Damage Control:
  • Real-world advice for corporate crises (e.g., Southwest Airlines’ PR issues): use transparent, empathetic language to mitigate backlash [20:20–20:59].

5. Vulnerability, Adversity, and Meaning

• Both Host and Guest Discuss Childhood Adversity:
  • Kelly and Miller open up about growing up in challenging environments and how a “chip on the shoulder” can fuel ambition [22:28–24:38].
    • “Chased him down and met him when I was 35...it was, I’m gonna prove to the world that I’m not white trash.” – Donald Miller [23:13]
• The Illusion of Achievement:
  • Kelly’s experience: selling a company, making money, yet becoming depressed — leads to a discussion that meaning, not material achievement, creates sustained fulfillment [28:13–30:19].

6. Viktor Frankl and the Power of Redemptive Suffering

• Meaning Over Pleasure:
  • Miller introduces Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” and his formula for a meaningful life:
    1. Meaningful project
    2. Community
    3. Redemptive perspective on suffering
  • “You have to figure out how getting sued is a good thing.” – Donald Miller [44:00]
• Real-life Application:
  • Miller’s lost manuscript and lost fortune — both reframed as growth opportunities that led to greater wisdom and generosity [46:39–49:17].
    • “Today my wife and I give away more money every year than I lost on that day.” [50:07]
• The Antidote to Victim Mentality:
  • “If you can figure out what Viktor Frankl is talking about...make a second list of reasons that this is actually a blessing. What happens is the spotlight will then shift from the negative list to the positive list, and you will begin to live out of that positive list.” [50:58]

7. Roles We Play (Victim, Villain, Hero)

• From ‘Hero on a Mission’:
  • Four roles: victim (no growth), villain (seeking vengeance), hero (grows and serves), and guide (wisdom for others).
  • “The villain and the hero have very similar back stories...they respond to it differently.” [53:35–54:22]
  • “America as a culture has gone from heroic mindset to victim mindset...in a movie, a victim character...is a bit part.” – Donald Miller [54:48]
• Personal Reflection:
  • Both discuss times when they slipped into the victim mindset and the growth required to escape it [51:14–52:28].

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Clarity in Marketing:
  • “Clarity is key. It’s more important than being clever.” – Donald Miller [17:01]
• On the Limits of Success:
  • “I had a house, I had an amazing girlfriend, dogs...and it was empty.” – Sean Kelly [28:28]
• On the Importance of Words:
  • “The words that come out of your mouth will build your future more than anything else.” – Donald Miller [21:10]
• On Meaning through Suffering:
  • “If you can figure out...a redemptive perspective on your suffering...you will begin to live out of that positive list and you will make it true.” – Donald Miller [50:58]
• On the Victim Mindset:
  • “Victim mentality is the cancer.” – Donald Miller [51:14]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Clarity in Messaging vs. Cleverness: [01:39–04:07], [04:38–05:28]
• Cognitive Load and Branding: [05:13–05:39]
• Political Messaging as a Case Study: [04:38–04:59]
• Childhood Stories & Adversity: [08:44–09:33], [22:28–24:38]
• Building Confidence: [09:33–11:46]
• Tagline Crafting: [12:45–13:37]
• ‘Survival Asset’ Mindset: [13:37–14:42]
• Personal Vulnerability: [22:28–24:38], [28:13–30:19]
• Viktor Frankl & Meaning: [41:53–46:39]
• Redemptive Perspective on Suffering: [50:58–51:11]
• Hero/Villain/Victim Roles: [52:33–54:47]

---

Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Clarity beats cleverness: Be direct, especially if you’re a small brand or new creator.
• Confidence is earned: True confidence and competence stem from hard-won victories in specific domains.
• Words have power: What you say shapes outcomes; avoid negative or self-limiting language.
• Serve to thrive: Both business and fulfillment are about being valuable to others (“survival asset”).
• Suffering, reframed, becomes fuel: Learning to reinterpret setbacks is vital for growth and resilience.
• Heroic mindsets drive achievement and service: Resist falling into the “victim” trap — embrace struggle, serve others, and write your own story.

---

This episode blends practical brand-building strategies with raw, honest wisdom for anyone seeking to build something meaningful—whether a company, a career, or a life.

Transcript

[Audible Narrator]

The wait is over. Dive into Audible's most anticipated collection, the best of 2025. Featuring top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all genres. Our editors have carefully curated this year's must listens. From brilliant hidden gems to the buzziest new releases, every title in this collection has earned its spot. This is your go to for the absolute best in 2025 audio entertainment. Whether you love thrillers, romance or non, your next favorite listen awaits. Discover why there's more to imagine when you [e-mail] BestOfTheYear but, you know, went.

[Donald Miller]

Off for a few years and figured out how to write and put together a book. I don't know if I was naturally gifted. I was naturally obsessed. You know, I'm curious about how much.

People who succeed are gifted or are they just obsessed? Like, do they actually have an obsessive drive which. Which makes it look like they're gifted?

[Sean]

Foreign.

Miller out here in Las Vegas. You ready for a fun week?

[Donald Miller]

I am, yeah.

[Sean]

For Grateful Dead and a few podcasts.

[Donald Miller]

Yep. Grateful Dead doing a couple podcasts. Speaking at a. At a car wash convention. So yeah, it'll be busy.

[Sean]

Vegas has all sorts of conventions. That's the first time I'm hearing of a car wash one.

[Donald Miller]

Now you guys have like the biggest conventions in the world.

[Sean]

That's a good part about living here.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I don't have to go anywhere.

[Donald Miller]

And all those speakers come in to speak at those conventions and they stop by your office, I'm sure.

[Sean]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Really nice.

[Sean]

A win win man. But yeah. What are you going to talk about there? Storytelling.

[Donald Miller]

I'm going to talk about. Yeah. I mean, you know, my shtick is clarify your message so customers engage. So I'm going to talk about how most businesses are missing out on sound bites and how you need to have sound bites no matter what you do. You need to have sound bites that you repeat in order to sort of help people understand why you're valuable to them.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And it doesn't matter what business you're in, it doesn't matter if you're running for office. I mean, honestly, it's true. Just as a human being, you know, that we value people who can solve problems.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And if you, if you know what problem you can solve and you're able to articulate it, the perceived value of you goes up as a person. So, you know, it's true. And it's been business. It's true. In leadership. It's true. And just being person.

[Sean]

Have you seen the formula for successful storytelling change over time? Because I remember when I was a kid, those commercials. I still remember the jingle to some of those.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And now I feel like the commercials these days, I forgot about them instantly.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, we kind of broken away from, you know, with. With all the noise. That's. I'm amazed at how bad advertising is. It's awful. It's a waste of money, most of it. You know, I remember I was watching. Are you a football fan?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Who do you like?

[Sean]

Giants. I grew up in Jersey.

[Donald Miller]

Okay. I'm a Seahawks fan.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

So I'm watching the Seahawks one day, and in the end zone of the football field are painted the words crucial catch. Have you seen this?

[Sean]

No, I haven't seen that.

[Donald Miller]

So a crucial catch. And there's three colorful bars. It reminded me of the old, like, Polaroid Kodak logo. And I thought, well, they must be advertising line of cameras. You know, crucial catch. Like, catch the picture or whatever. Two weeks later, I find out that is a cancer awareness campaign. And it was, you know, crucial catch, intercept cancer, all this kind of stuff. That is a great example of an absolute waste of money. Because, you know, you sit around some ad execs and they say, oh, you know, what could be more crucial than catching cancer early? Oh, you know, catch ball in the end zone is crucial. Oh, what if we say crucial catch, and nobody was in the room when they had that conversation? So they end up shipping just confusing language. And you see it over and over, and you see the ramifications of it. I mean, you know, if they would have just put, promise us you'll get screened for cancer, cancer in the end zone, they'd have saved a lot more lives. But there's this. There's almost like this necessity that people feel to be sophisticated or clever or cute.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And it costs them. It costs them.

The reality is you've got to be able to articulate your. The value that you offer, you know, on the open market, if you will, really, really quickly and in a sound bite. Because nobody thinks in a nuanced way anymore, at least not when they're encountering a brand or a leader or something like that. People think in sound bites. I mean, let me give you an example, Sean.

You know, I realize politics is a provocative place to go, but it's a great place to study effective messaging, ineffective messaging. You had somebody like Jeb Bush, who wrote a book on immigration. He wrote a book on education, and he's at 3% in the polls. Donald Trump's immigration policy was three words. Build a wall, gets elected president, do you see what I'm saying?

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah. Simple.

[Donald Miller]

It's, it's, it's, it's simple. There's no nuance to it. The brain has to burn calories in order to process information. And the more calories you make people burn up front, the less likely they will be to pay attention to you.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Now after they get through what we call the curiosity phase, they'll pay a lot more attention to you and they'll be willing to burn calories. But you got to earn that and you earn it with, you know, with sound bites, at least in the, in the field that I'm in, which is helping people clarify their message.

[Sean]

You burn some serious calories using your brain.

[Donald Miller]

Six to 800 calories a day.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So 20% of your calorie expenditure every day is burned by your supercomputer.

[Sean]

And people don't even know that?

[Donald Miller]

No.

[Sean]

I'm a chest.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

The Trilite from Thera SOJ is no joke. Medical grade red and near infrared light with three frequencies per light. Deep healing, real results and totally portable. It's legit photo biomodulation tech in a flexible on body panel. This is the Trilite from Therasol and it's next level red light therapy. It's a GOT 118 high powered polychromatic lights each delivering three healing frequencies, red and near infrared from 580 to 980 nanometers. Optimal penetration, enhanced energy, skin rejuvenation, pain relief, better performance, quicker recovery and so much more. Therassage has been leading the game for over 25 years and this panel is FDA listed and USB powered. Ultra soft and flexible and ultra portable on body red light therapy I use daily and I take everywhere I travel. This is the Thera 03 ozone module from Therasosh. It's a portable ozone and negative ion therapy in one. It boosts oxygen, clears and sanitizes the air and even helps your mood. It's a total game changer at home or on the go. This little Device is the Thera03 ozone module by TheraSock and it's one of my favorite wellness tools in the sauna. It boosts ozone absorption through your skin up to 10 times, oxygenating your blood and supporting deep detox outside the sauna. It purifies the air, killing germs, bacteria, viruses and mold. And it improves mood and sleep. Negative ion therapy. It's compact, rechargeable and perfect for travel, planes, offices, hotel rooms, you name it. It's like carrying clean energy wherever you go. This is a Thera H2 go from Therasage, the only bottle with molecular hydrogen structure, water and red light in one. It hydrates, energizes, and detoxes water upgrades. The Thera H2 go from Therasosh isn't just a water bottle. It's next level hydration. It infuses your water with molecular hydrogen, one of the most powerful antioxidants out there. That means less oxidative stress, more energy, and faster recovery. But here's what makes it stand out. It's the only bottle that also structures your water and adds red light to supercharge it. It's sleek, poison, affordable, and honestly, I don't go anywhere without it.

[Sean]

It's player. And I burn even more. Because chess, you're burning thousands.

[Donald Miller]

Are you, are you good?

[Sean]

I'm decent.

[Donald Miller]

Really?

[Sean]

Good is relative in chess because I'll get humbled real quick if I go to the streets of New York. But if I play any, any friend of mine, I'll destroy them.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And you're probably exhausted at the end of a day. All you did was sit there.

[Sean]

Yeah. Podcasting can be tiring too.

[Donald Miller]

It can. Especially if you haven't forced the conversation.

[Sean]

Yeah, certain shows aren't as good. Right.

[Donald Miller]

Hopefully this one's not so bad, Sean.

[Sean]

But for me, I'll film like six in a row. So by the end of the day, sometimes I' like, I just worked out. It feels like I'm exhausted.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way. You know, go on the road. Speaking at stuff like this, I'll go home and I don't have any words left, so I only go out once a month because I have a. I have a little girl at home and I have a wife and so Respect. Yeah, I don't. I try just go one night a month. Oh, it's too. But try to do that. And the reason is just wasted. When you get home, you know, it's absolutely wasted. People suck all your energy too.

[Sean]

That's true. So balance is, is big for you then?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, balances. I got, I got, I got married at 42, pretty late. And then came a dad at 49. If I would have got married in my early 20s, I, I, I'm not like you. I probably would have messed it all up.

[Sean]

Really?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, no. There's no zero question about how.

[Sean]

So why do you think that one.

[Donald Miller]

She's too idealistic, really insecure. Would have married a woman because she made me look good rather than because I loved her.

Codependent. You wanna, you want a laundry List.

[Sean]

That's a lot of stuff, man. I love the honesty.

[Donald Miller]

Food addict?

[Sean]

Really?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean]

Fast food or unhealthy stuff?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah, whatever. Whatever I can get good, you know, So I had to clean up my act a little bit. Damn. Yeah.

[Sean]

How did you work through the. What was the first thing you said about confidence or something?

[Donald Miller]

Insecurity.

[Sean]

Insecurity? Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

It's a great question. I like this. I like this conversation. I always have to talk about messaging, but I like talking about other stuff more. You know, the best thing you can do if you have insecurities is figure out some. Some place that you can win. You know, I don't. I don't know that. I'm not a psychologist, but I don't know that you can look in the mirror and. And get yourself to be confident. I. I think it requires a few. A few wins. And so you find chess or you find basketball, or you find music, you find podcasting, you find, you know, whatever. It is just a place that you can excel. Yeah, for me, that was writing. I figured out I'm a decent writer, so I started writing books and got some confidence there. And then, honestly, man, I lost weight, got into a little bit better shape and. You know, they say confidence comes from the inside.

[Sean]

I'm not quite sure I agree with you. I actually.

[Donald Miller]

Really?

[Sean]

Yeah, I just saw an amazing podcast. It's called Diary of a CEO.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's.

[Donald Miller]

No, I love that guy.

[Sean]

Great show. But this FBI agent just came on. Forget his name, but he was talking about exactly what you just said to build confidence.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Ever thought about how much EMF and radiation your body is exposed to every single day? From smartphones to WI Fi, modern technology never stops emitting invisible stressors that could disrupt brain function, hormone balance, and cellular health. That's where Aries comes in. The only scientifically validated solution designed to help your body adapt to adapt to today's technology. It's trusted by elite athletes. Used by the ufc, WWE Canada Basketball and the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's backed by science. 100 plus scientists and 40 plus institutions confirm its effectiveness. It's patented, peer reviewed, clinically proven and publicly traded. WI Fi is the most tested, researched and validated EMF solution on the market. Upgrade your biology to keep up with modern technology. Protect yourself with Aries today. Click the link below to learn more.

[Audible Narrator]

That's great.

[Sean]

You got to master one thing first.

[Donald Miller]

Yes.

[Sean]

And then once you have competence in that area, you can apply it to multiple areas. Yeah, but a lot of people give this advice of just faking it, but with confidence. Really hard to do that.

[Donald Miller]

I don't think you should fake it. I think you should be honest. But I think you should try your ass off.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And master something. I. I like the idea of trying to figure out. It may not happen, but it's beneficial exercise nonetheless. Try to become the world's best at something. So you gotta find your little micro niche. Right. Like if you want a controlling idea or a tagline for your business, I'm gonna kick anybody's ass. I'm up with a really, really good one. And probably five, six out of 10 times, you know, I'm gonna beat you. And to me, that's a really nerdy, weird thing to be good at. But it's. I hang my hat on it sometimes. And it's given me a lot of, you know, it's given me a lot of confidence.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

But I realize we should all be like children. Child of God. And are unconditionally. We've. But human beings aren't like that. And God is. But human beings aren't. So I think the way we view ourselves, like just get really, really good at something.

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[Donald Miller]

And especially if it's something that serves other people in some way. I think it's. It's a confidence builder.

[Sean]

Yeah. Which taglines are you the most proud of?

[Donald Miller]

You've made a lot, but just came back from national security. Their tagline was like defend the. Defend our freedom, Protect the future, or whatever. And I think we're going to ship. Intelligence prepares us to win. You know, because they've got to go into Congress and they've got to present. They've got to get some. An authorization called 702 from Congress which authorizes national security to billions and billions of dollars. They got to do this every freaking year. So to walk into the room and say, hey, you know, the reason we're talking about national security is because intelligence prepares us to win. The first thing that it does is it says, here's what we deliver. The second thing that it says is if we don't deliver this, we're going to lose. So that's a really fricking good tagline. What you want to do with any organization or any person, or if you're a leader or even with your podcast, you want to associate what you offer with the survival of the person paying attention to you.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

And if you.

[Sean]

If you.

[Donald Miller]

Because human beings are designed to survive. They're. They're. That's the number one thing that they think about all day long is how, how am I going to thrive? How am I going to survive? How am I going to protect my assets? Am I going to gain assets? How am I going to, you know, gain status or associate with, with somebody who might, you know, it all sounds fairly utilitarian, but. But it's true. And so if you want to sell a product or have people respect and admire you, be known for helping other people survive in some way. Yeah. And the way I say it is become a survival asset. You know, the reason we're attracted to. I just met your, your lovely fiance. You know, I'd say it, but the reason you're attracted to her is because she's a survival asset in some way.

[Sean]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

She's a good friend, she's a nurturer, she makes you laugh, she calms down, she eases anxiety. You know, she's a good hang. Same thing with you, right. She's looking at you going, that dude probably is going to be a good dad someday. He's got a stable mind. He didn't blow his temper. You know? You see what I'm saying?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

We think love is unconditional. It's very conditional. And by the way, isn't it very loving of you to be a good survival asset for her? Like, that's a very other centered thing to do. So it's not like we're manipulating people. We want to be a survival asset. So, you know, the, one of the things that I do is I go into companies and, you know, pretty quickly try to figure out what do you offer that's helping people survive. And then how do we articulate that in the form of a tagline or controlling idea or one liner, landing page copy, things like that. And, and it's a fun. It's. It's like, it's not playing chess. It's like doing a crossword puzzle. It feels like you're just kind of figuring out a puzzle.

[Sean]

Yeah, I feel like the biggest brands are really good at that. They're really good at the psychology aspect.

[Donald Miller]

They are. You know, if you have a really big brand like Coca Cola or Nike, you can aff. More vague and elusive.

Most small businesses try to do that and they fail. Because we all know what a Coca Cola is like. We've all tasted it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Shout out to Yay Nuts, today's sponsor, if you're looking for a snack that bold, crunchy and packed with flavor, say Yay to Yay Nuts, the deliciously addictive nuts that bring the party to your taste buds. From almonds to cashews. Every bite is a flavor adventure. No junk, no fillers, just straight up awesome. The next time you're craving a snack, don't just go nuts. Yay. Nuts. Available now in store dot. Yeah. Nuts dot com.

[Donald Miller]

And we all know what Nike shoes are. If you have a small brand, though, you've got to be. You have to be much, much more clear. And so I don't like using big brand examples very much because they, you know, they get to cheat the system a little bit. Yeah.

[Sean]

They got time on their side. They've been around for.

[Donald Miller]

They've been around a long time. They don't. You know, there's a. There's a. You'll love this. There's a billboard outside my office, and it says, sitting the fence, question mark, call a cowboy. That's it.

It's got a picture of a cowboy. And by the way, the cowboy. Cowboy is spelled with a K. And I'm like, that's a giant waste of money. So I, you know, I do a little due diligence. I find out they build fences, right?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And, you know, you could sit, you know, people are buzzing by this thing at 60 miles an hour. That's a wasted billboard. They spent money. But if they would have just said, hire a cowboy to build your fence, they would have sold a lot more fences.

And so, you know, clarity is. Is key. It's more important than being clever.

[Sean]

Have you ever seen a billboard work? Like, has what worked on you best?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, well, I don't know if it worked on me, but it. It's the most effective billboard I've ever seen. Probably it will never be topped. And it just says, gun show.

Gun show, March 7th. And it's like, bright yellow. Like, there you go.

[Sean]

Except for a conference, it's.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah, that's extremely.

[Sean]

I've seen that one, actually. I think.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. There's a lot in Vegas, man. We got them everywhere.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And most of them are waste.

[Sean]

Most of them I don't remember. Yeah, sometimes it'll be like a magic show that I want to go to, but it's already in my head that I saw the guy somewhere else, so it's more like a reminder.

[Donald Miller]

You guys go to shows? Yeah.

[Sean]

You know, being in Vegas, I feel like it's part of the culture here. Go to.

[Donald Miller]

What problem. What problem do you think your podcast solves? I'm just curious, like, if you could articulate it.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's great.

[Donald Miller]

Is it mostly kind of entertainment or. Entertainment.

[Sean]

So I have to sprinkle that in to get views, right. But I do want to help people.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So, like, it's an education podcast. I want to educate people.

[Donald Miller]

And is there a specific area or self. Chris Williamson, you know.

[Sean]

Yeah, That's a great show. Great show.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's great. And, you know, that's kind of how he angles himself. Huberman sort of owns the health health protocol. I mean, Atia owns longevity. Dr. Becky owns parenting.

[Sean]

So I battle with this. Do I want to niche down more like that, or should I stay as broad as possible?

[Donald Miller]

I mean, what you're doing is working, so it's hard to argue with you, but. Yeah, but usually if you're getting started, you'd want to niche down. You'd want to own. I call it owning a problem.

[Sean]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

So if you can own a problem.

You get, you know, if you can own, like, how to get a date or, you know, how to. How to train a dog or how to, you know.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You can become the world's leader in that, as long as you don't talk about anything else for a long time.

[Sean]

I agree, because I started niched, actually.

[Donald Miller]

What'd you start?

[Sean]

It was a marketing business podcast.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, okay.

[Sean]

But you can only talk about making money so much before it gets boring.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So after, like, 100 episodes of that, I was like, let me talk about other aspects of life. There's more to life than just making money.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. We've actually tried a podcast about things that succeeded, kind of analyzing why they succeeded, and we've seen the viewers uptick when we actually niche down even further into just the message.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

So what message did they use to succeed or what message did it? We just did one on Southwest Airlines, you know, fumbling the. They're going to start charging for pass.

[Sean]

I saw that. You know, that was a big PR nightmare for them.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Big PR nightmare. So we actually. We talked about that.

[Sean]

I.

[Donald Miller]

And I expected it will do better since we niche down a little bit further. I'm curious, though, whether or not that that will test out to be true.

[Sean]

Yeah. And they're also going to arrange seating. I think that was a big deal. Right.

[Donald Miller]

I'm all for it.

[Sean]

You like it?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, because, you know, like, that thing in your stomach of, like, am I going to be sitting in the middle seat?

[Sean]

I'm over that. I've been C59 on some of those Southwest flights. It's the worst feeling.

[Donald Miller]

And I love it.

[Sean]

I love it when there's.

[Donald Miller]

I love it when there's two big guys. And I'll always joke like, hey, Can I get in there? And they're like, are you serious? I'm like, I'm joking.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah. Being next to a big guy on a plane is.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Not a fun.

[Donald Miller]

No, no.

[Sean]

But yeah, Southwest. We'll see how they pivot from that. I always like seeing how companies kind of pivot from PR nightmares.

[Donald Miller]

I gave him some advice on the podcast.

[Sean]

Oh, you did?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

What'd you say?

[Donald Miller]

I said, you need to. Well, first of all, you can only mitigate the damage. It's not going to be a positive. This isn't going to be a win, but you can mitigate the damage. And so my recommendation to the CEO was.

You need to use the line. We are being forced to upgrade the Southwest customer experience, you know, because of market demands and competition in the market, that sort of thing. We've got to pivot our strategy. So I like the word forced because it says this isn't something we want to do. But then, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna charge you more money, but you're gonna get an upgraded experience.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And just mitigate the damage as much as you can. We'll see if. We'll see if he listens to the podcast.

[Sean]

We'll see. It's crazy how important certain words are and how they.

[Donald Miller]

Words are everything. Words build your whole world.

[Sean]

Just one little word added in that sentence can change it.

[Donald Miller]

Yep. Words. The words that everybody listening right now. The words that come out of your mouth will build your future more than anything else. Even more than what you do. Wow. Even more than who you know. The words that come out of your mouth will build your future, and you should choose them very carefully. And I think there are some rules. Don't be too. Just this. Don't. Don't be.

You know, too self deprecating. I. That was a coping mechanism for me for years. It's just very self deprecating.

[Sean]

Being hard on yourself.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I mean, hard on myself, but also just like kind of making fun of myself as a way to not come off as a threat. And I think it cost me.

[Sean]

Because you started manifesting it, right?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, So I started manifesting it and people stopped taking me seriously.

[Sean]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

You know? Yeah.

[Sean]

You got to be careful what you're saying.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, A little bit.

[Sean]

Yeah. I could definitely relate to that. I used to be very pessimistic.

[Donald Miller]

Did you really?

[Sean]

What happened?

[Donald Miller]

Did you read some books that.

[Sean]

I was more like podcasts and audiobooks and YouTube videos.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But books helped. But environment, honestly, like, you just got.

[Donald Miller]

Away from some of the people who.

[Sean]

Are negative, I helped the most because I grew up in a very pessimistic environment.

[Donald Miller]

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

[Sean]

Well, just like, parents got divorced and.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

They were both so negative about. Bitter about how it ended, I guess, and never let go of it. So I'm around that, seeing both sides every day.

[Donald Miller]

You have siblings?

[Sean]

No. Only child.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, wow. That was huge for you.

[Sean]

Yeah. That probably played a role in it too.

[Donald Miller]

How old were you?

[Sean]

I was fourth grade when they got divorced.

[Donald Miller]

Wow.

[Sean]

So I had to deal with that on my own, man.

[Donald Miller]

Do you have a. Can I just be frank? Do you have a chip on your shoulder?

[Sean]

I did.

[Donald Miller]

A lot of people who are. That's the reason I'm here, man.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

A lot of people are successful. They have a chip on their. Yeah.

[Sean]

That used to fuel me a lot. It's not as strong as it used to be.

[Donald Miller]

What was the state. What was the. What was the chip about? Like for me. For me, the chip was. We grew up very, very poor. My dad left when I was a kid, so I never really knew him. Yeah. Chased him down and met him when I was 35.

[Sean]

We got to dive into that later. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Maybe. And.

It was. I'm gonna prove to the world that I'm not white trash. And that. That fueled a lot of the drive.

[Sean]

Yeah. So mine was. We grew up middle class, so I don't think finances was the main reason, but mainly proving people wrong.

[Donald Miller]

Huh.

[Sean]

I got bullied a lot. I think even my own parents kind of doubted if I would be successful or not because I didn't go the academic route.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And that was all my mother knew. Coming from China, coming from best colleges. So that was a big, contentious point.

[Donald Miller]

Huh.

[Sean]

So I don't even think, like, she watches every episode. I don't even think she believed in me. At a certain point, she'll say this herself. You know, like, we used to argue all the time about grades and everything.

[Donald Miller]

I think. Yeah. The similar experience. I published my first book without telling my family. Wow. And I brought it home for Christmas.

[Sean]

Well, they said. What was their reaction?

[Donald Miller]

They were shocked. They're like, disbelief.

[Sean]

They didn't even know you were a writer.

[Donald Miller]

No clue. Wow. And it was totally disbelief. Like, I. I can remember the. The eerie feel in the room of just like, what is. What is this? Some sort of con game? Prank. Yeah, some sort of prank.

[Sean]

Wow. You were just ashamed of talking about.

[Donald Miller]

No, because I. Because from their perspective, I was an idiot and because. Mostly because I was an idiot. But you know, went off for a few years and figured out how to write and put together a book.

[Sean]

Were you naturally gifted, you'd say, when it came to writing?

[Donald Miller]

I don't know if I was naturally gifted. I was naturally obsessed. You know, I'm curious about how much people who succeed are gifted or are they just obsessed? Like, do they actually have an obsessive drive which. Which makes it look like they're gifted? Have you seen the. The Kobe Bryant documentary?

[Sean]

No, I saw the MJ1, not the Kobe one.

[Donald Miller]

MJ1's incredible.

[Sean]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[Donald Miller]

But you. You. If you watch the Kobe one, you know, I'm sure they're similar, but, you know, his dad played basketball in Italy. He grew up in Italy. And you can see him on the side of the court during professional basketball games, and he's dribbling the ball, and he's watching his dad. And you. You see that obsession being born in him at a really early age. And then, you know, it's a shame that, like, you know, at the height of his career, people would say, we're so gifted. It's sort of insulting.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

There's a guy, you know. Have you ever heard of a guy named Henry Cloud?

[Sean]

No.

[Donald Miller]

He's a guy at Interview. He wrote a book called Boundaries. It sold, like, millions of copies, 10 million copies. Like, you've heard the term boundaries? Yeah, Henry coined that term. Wow. Yep. And I've gotten to know him a little bit because he lives in Nashville, and he's. He is the most sort of savant, like, person I've ever known when it comes to relationships. Like, he. Like, you can be struggling with something, and he'll just go, well, you know, I was dating a gal, and we were just having some trouble, and I told him, like, maybe 30 seconds, and he said, did her father die when she was 13? I kid you not. I kid you not. And I'm like, how the hell did you know that? He's like, well, this, this and that. And I used to say he was gifted. And then I realized what actually happened was in his late 20s, he got a radio show, and he started taking calls on the radio show. And he did this for, like, I don't know, 15 years. Every day, he's taking five and six calls, figuring out people's relationships and giving them, you know, some really good, healthy advice. That wasn't a gift. That was earned. You know, he. He worked through that, and he got really, really good at it. And if you say, okay, Dom, why are you good at Messaging. I've written about 15 books. So how many hours is that trying to figure out how to say something succinctly? And so is it a gift or is it something that you just got obsessed with? You know, you're on track to 15, 20 years from now, maybe be one of the world's greatest interviewers. You know, maybe that's not where you go. Yeah, but you're certainly on track to get there.

[Sean]

It's a goal of mine.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Six interviews a day. Come on.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You know, you're going to be. You're going to be asking very, very intuitively thoughtful questions. And you. You might even say to yourself, oh, you know, I guess I just have a knack. I don't have a knack. You put in thousands and thousands of hours.

[Sean]

How I started it was awful. Yeah. My first three episodes. Trash. Really?

[Donald Miller]

Did you throw them out? Did you keep.

[Sean]

No, I'm gonna keep them. Just to look back and laugh on it.

[Donald Miller]

Were you nervous or what?

[Sean]

Nervous, not confident. I was always an introvert, so it just wasn't natural for me to talk to people.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I had to rely on co hosts, live podcasts.

[Donald Miller]

How did that happen?

[Sean]

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I sold the company and I had money.

[Donald Miller]

You sold a company?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you did prove your parents wrong, didn't you?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Just real quick, I'm curious.

[Sean]

Yeah. Crypto space, right?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, gotcha.

[Sean]

Yeah. Right time, right place. It was during the bull market. It was perfect. Divine timing. Like, if I waited, it wouldn't have been.

[Donald Miller]

Did you do the program yourself or.

[Sean]

It was a crypto marketing agency, so I just got companies get in the space.

[Donald Miller]

Got it.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Okay.

[Sean]

So it was great timing. So I have all this money and just. I'm depressed. It's crazy. Like, I'm literally sleeping 12 hours a.

[Donald Miller]

Day, waking up depressed because you thought you. You got everything that life could give you and it wasn't enough.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's pretty much.

[Donald Miller]

That's a gym.

[Sean]

I had a house. I had a amazing girlfriend, dogs. Everything I ever wanted growing up, I had it.

[Donald Miller]

And that's a. It's a luxury to realize that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So a lot of people would chase that their whole life and never quite get it. So they never actually get to realize it's empty.

[Sean]

Yeah. Super.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And then there's. So what happened in the secondary pursuit? Like, they realized that was empty. You didn't kill yourself. You hear?

[Sean]

Didn't kill myself.

[Donald Miller]

Did you think about it? No.

[Sean]

But my family has a history of it.

[Donald Miller]

Okay.

[Sean]

Grandfather, father, both did it. And my. You don't have to get too personal, but other family members dealt with it.

[Donald Miller]

But I'm sorry about that.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's crazy. So I knew that could be a possibility, so I was really aware of that. Yeah. But yeah, months of that went on and then started the podcast.

[Donald Miller]

Did that help?

[Sean]

Helped so much. This is a form of therapy.

[Donald Miller]

It is. Do you know, I interviewed Pete Carroll, Seattle Seahawks, and he said, he said something interesting in the interview. He said, he said, Donna had the luxury of winning early.

Never heard me say that. What do you mean you had the luxury of winning early? He said, well, I, you know, I was an athlete, so I won some contests and realized there's a diminishing return on success. And he said when I started helping other people win, there was no diminishing return. He said, it's only gotten better. Wow. It's only gotten more and more fulfilling when I used my abilities to help somebody else win. And he said, that's why I'm a coach, because it's just. It's just more fulfilling and just gets better. He's coming here.

[Sean]

I love that. That's cool.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, he's gonna win here too.

[Sean]

Yeah, I hope so. We suck right now.

[Donald Miller]

He'll turn around.

[Sean]

Yeah, we've had a few rough seasons, but. No, that's so true. And that might play into why a podcast? Because I'm seeing the messages I'm getting now and all the people coming up to me and it feels amazing.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, man, it does. And. Yeah. And kind of beating your own chest doesn't do it. I don't know anybody. Do you know any narcissists who are actually happy?

[Sean]

That's a good ass question. Narcissists that are happy?

[Donald Miller]

No, I know a lot who are driven. I know a lot who are famous and successful.

[Sean]

Well, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that are narcissists. Yeah, CEOs, I think way higher than normal.

[Donald Miller]

Yep.

[Sean]

They did studies on this, which I.

[Donald Miller]

Think I have some of those traits, by the way. Yeah, you probably do too.

[Sean]

Well, yeah, I've taken the test.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, not the narcissistic personality story. I mean, that's crazy.

[Sean]

No, that's not terrible. But I've taken the Dark Triad test, the one where.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Takes 60 out of 100.

[Donald Miller]

Okay. I haven't taken that. I bet you. I bet you. I think, you know, I. I heard George W. Bush get interviewed once and somebody said, you know, are. Are you a narcissist? And he goes, well, you kind of have to be. If you think. If you think you want. If you think you deserve to be president. I was like, that's a really nice, honest way of answering that. It's a very non narcissistic way to answer your question, by the way.

[Sean]

I could see it, though.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, but you have to have. You have to. You know, why should you have a podcast? You know, and so it's. I think it's a. It's a. You know, who am I to write a book? Literally, I'm gonna sit down and write 300 pages that I think you should read. I mean, that's got to be a little bit narcissistic.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Right. But at the same time, I think you should read it. And I think. And when other people read it, they think they should read it too. So I don't know. I'm always asking myself.

[Sean]

It's an interesting one.

[Donald Miller]

It's a very interesting.

[Sean]

Portrayed so negatively.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. But I think the belief that you can do something, sort of obsessive delusional idea that, that you could build a company or something like that, or walk into the national security and say, here's how I think you ought to talk about what you guys do.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And in a room filled with people who are infinitely smarter than you are, you know.

[Sean]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

There's got to be some sort of like, got a little bitty narcissistic thing going on there.

[Sean]

Do you find your ego coming up once in a while? Like you got to keep it in check.

[Donald Miller]

I find my ego coming up, but it's in a negative way. I don't find it coming up in that I'm better than you. I name drop when I get. When I feel insecure, I'll name drop.

[Sean]

Yeah, a little bit. I do that too.

[Donald Miller]

Or I'll drop. I'll drop my accomplishments, you know, like I've probably done on this podcast three times. So tonight, when I go to bed, I guarantee you, Sean, I'll sit there and go, you're just such a dumbo. How did you. That's so embarrassing that you did that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

But I also have learned, you know, as. As I've gotten older, to be very, very forgiving and gracious. Not forgiving isn't the word. Accepting. I accept the fact that I'm. That I am both very selfish and very good.

[Sean]

You could be both. You think?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah. There's a zero question.

[Sean]

Yeah, I think so too. People try to put you in one bucket.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. I love my wife more than any woman on this planet. And like that chick's hot. So it's like, it's like, I don't.

[Sean]

That's just human nature.

[Donald Miller]

Human. Yeah, it's human nature. And then like, I, I will die for my daughter. You know, she means the world to me, but it's like, gosh, she's so freaking annoying right now. Please stop whining. You know, so I've, I've come to terms with the fact that, you know, we're good, we're good and we're.

Self centered. And I don't think, you know, we can, we can slowly become less self centered is, I think is a good, healthy journey, but I don't kick myself around for it anymore.

[Sean]

Yeah, well, I think that awareness of it is just the first step for most people. Yeah, they're not even there. Yeah, yeah. The name dropping, that's probably my worst habit too.

[Donald Miller]

Are you being serious?

[Sean]

Yeah, because I'll be in this.

[Donald Miller]

I haven't noticed it once.

[Sean]

Really? Well, I don't do it on the pod, but like when I'm in the.

[Donald Miller]

Sauna, like at your gym. Yeah.

[Sean]

I just, I don't know, I can't help myself. I'll just start name dropping. Podcast guests that have been on, people ask me, see you.

[Donald Miller]

And I would make good sauna conversation because I, I don't notice it. I'm like, oh, what was that, dude? Like, you know, like, I don't, I don't see you. They see that as name dropping, but. Yeah, but I know I'm doing it. I know I'm doing it and I'm just.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's definitely an insecurity thing for me too because I got bullied a lot growing up.

[Donald Miller]

Totally. You know, and then you'll meet people who, like, you'll talk to them, you'll know them for years and then you find out like, they knew Elvis and they've never talked about. That's just such respect.

[Sean]

When you need someone that could do that.

[Donald Miller]

Absolutely.

[Sean]

I'm like, no way. Yeah, yeah. Shout out to those people that can hold it in like that. That's just insane to me.

[Donald Miller]

It is insane. Have you ever met somebody who is extremely, extremely, extremely accomplished and wants like almost to be invisible? Like, they don't even tout it.

[Sean]

Yeah. They don't even have social media.

[Donald Miller]

Who?

[Sean]

I've had a few on the show. They're just like billionaires. They don't have any social media.

[Donald Miller]

They're not talented at all.

[Sean]

And they're cool with it. But it's a rare breed. It is these days, especially because Comparison is everywhere these days with social media.

[Donald Miller]

Yep.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Donald Miller]

I have a buddy named. I'm a clothes guy a little bit. Because I was always so fat, I couldn't wear anything I wanted. Now I lost weight. I'm like, I'll, like, try to find clothes. Yeah, that look good. And.

I got to be friends. I'm going to name drop.

[Sean]

I got to be.

[Donald Miller]

I'm going to name drop somebody nobody even knows about. But his name is Spencer Birch. He created. He was instrumental in creating the Double RL brand with Ralph Lauren. I think Spencer makes the absolute best clothes on the planet for men. Like, by far.

[Sean]

I got to try this out.

[Donald Miller]

Double rl. It's kind of a Western.

Western is brand like, I don't know, hipster web Western or something like Post Malone and all those guys. They all wear his.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

Sing about his clothes. That dude could absolutely give a. Whether you know who he is. And he. And like, he means it. He just does not. It means he just. It's annoying to him. That's impressive that you would. That anybody would find out what he does.

[Sean]

Or you think it was always like that. Or you think he just got so.

[Donald Miller]

I don't know. I. I don't know him well enough. I've always. We've fished part of. Part of a little fishing group. We go out.

I really don't know. He's a. He's. He's probably gonna get pissed because I'm talking about. But he's. He's.

It's more than over himself. I've met a lot of people who are over themselves, which is really com. It's really amazing. Comforting to meet those people. I think a guy like Spencer is sort of over.

Over the idea of success kind of period, you know? Like, he. He's doing it because he's. He's good at it, and he likes the way that suit looks, you know, and he's. He's trying to find some, like, 1920s train uniform conductor and turn it into a modern suit.

[Sean]

That's cool.

[Donald Miller]

Tuxedo kind of a thing. He just loves playing that game. But.

I wonder, you know, I also wonder the opposite. Like, how many. How many people are really successful because they're driven by sort of narcissistic tendencies? They need to be in front of people, impressing them at all times. And that. That can make you very, very successful.

[Sean]

Yeah, I like more of those. I think.

[Donald Miller]

You've what now?

[Sean]

I think there's probably more of those than the latter.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, probably so.

[Sean]

Yeah. I wonder if you'll ever get to that point where you just stop caring about everything. You're just in your own world, that.

[Donald Miller]

Would be, you know, a lot of insecurities would have to go away.

[Sean]

I love how honest you are. Yeah. I find myself getting like caring less and less as I get older, actually. Yeah, like 10 years also.

[Donald Miller]

As you get more successful.

[Sean]

Yeah, that could be it too. That definitely could play a role because.

[Donald Miller]

It'S not like a dangling carrot anymore.

[Sean]

Yeah. But I remember like when someone made comments about my appearance 10 years ago, I would actually take it to heart. I would.

[Donald Miller]

I still do that.

[Sean]

Oh, you do?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Sean]

Yeah. Now I don't. People call me broccoli head. People call me like, are you serious?

[Donald Miller]

And it doesn't mean anything.

[Sean]

I don't. Yeah, I don't care anymore. I think when you just get berated on social media every single day, you kind of get numb to it, you know, because I have a lot of.

[Donald Miller]

Do you think you have an internal locus of control more than an external looks of control and it's maybe shifted? Yeah, it's. Your identity comes from inside you and who you. Who you know you are.

[Sean]

I think I. I'm knowing myself better and better as time goes on.

[Donald Miller]

Is there a therapy involved in that?

[Sean]

Tried therapy when I had agoraphobia.

[Donald Miller]

What's agoraphobia?

[Sean]

Fear of leaving your house.

[Donald Miller]

Are you being serious? Yeah.

[Sean]

I couldn't leave my bedroom for a month.

[Donald Miller]

Holy.

[Sean]

I'd have a full on panic attack and collapse.

[Donald Miller]

That's insane.

[Sean]

Crazy. I thought that would be the rest of my life at a certain point when I was in that phase.

[Donald Miller]

And how did you get out of that?

[Sean]

So it was from a lawsuit. I thought I was going to lose everything.

[Donald Miller]

Somebody sued you?

[Sean]

Somebody sued me. I was like 20 at the time, super young, never got taught about any of this stuff.

[Donald Miller]

And yeah, that can scare the heck out of you.

[Sean]

Yeah. If it went to trial, I would have been bankrupt.

[Donald Miller]

Is it the CyberSecurity?

[Sean]

It was TCPA. Have you heard of that one? Telephone Consumer Protection Agency.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, maybe not.

[Sean]

Basically every text that your business sends out is a $500 fine. If you don't have this checkbox saying that you could text your customers. And I sent out tens of thousands of texts. So it would have been. Yeah, it would have been bankruptcy.

[Donald Miller]

And somebody sued you.

[Sean]

Somebody sued me, yeah. So what happened was kind of them.

[Donald Miller]

One, they were emailing call you and say, hey man, you need this box?

[Sean]

Yeah, well, they were emailing my customer service agency and they Weren't forwarding me the emails, and they eventually just sued because I wasn't responding.

[Donald Miller]

And that took you in your room?

[Sean]

Took me in my room. Dark place. And combine that with some Xanax. Oh, not fun. Not fun at all.

[Donald Miller]

So it was. Was the lawsuit being dismissed or whatever? Or whatever.

[Sean]

Yes. It helped once it got dismissed. That helped a little bit, but it was still lingering. And then I.

[Donald Miller]

It makes you feel like there's, like, the devil's out there.

[Sean]

I mean, you could get screwed legally, quick these days.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

If you're not prepared mentally and financially, it could ruin you.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Like, so easily, too.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

That's why when I see Trump getting sued all the time and he doesn't seem to care, it's, like, super impressive to me.

[Donald Miller]

I think he cares. I think he's used to it, and I think he has. He knows how to play the game.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You know, he. He's got really, really thick skin, but I think he cares. I think nobody wants nobody. You know, he's also a corporation. Right. So he's not actually being sued.

[Sean]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

You know, some entity that. He's probably got 700 corporations, and one of them can go bankrupt and it won't affect the others, you know, and all that sort of stuff. You know, he knows the strategies, and he's got some really ferocious lawyers, too.

[Sean]

He does. But now I realize it's inevitable. Like, if you're going to be in business, you're going to get sued.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So I didn't know that at the time.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. I get sued about once a year.

[Sean]

Yeah, same.

[Donald Miller]

We always settle. We always settle.

[Sean]

It's been about one a year for me.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Crazy, right? It's absolutely. I'm out here just trying to podcast.

[Donald Miller]

It's. It's funny how expensive being successful is.

[Sean]

I mean, I'm allocating a budget just for legal now. Are you? I'm at that point where I need to.

[Donald Miller]

What is. Who. Who would sue you?

[Sean]

Who, like, my previous lawyer sued me. I had to settle with him.

[Donald Miller]

Holy mackerel.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's crazy. That was a big settlement.

[Donald Miller]

How old are you?

[Sean]

I'm 28.

[Donald Miller]

Geez, man.

[Sean]

It's not fun.

[Donald Miller]

You're 50. Who. Who are you gonna be? Here's a good. Here's a question. What is all of this preparing you for?

[Sean]

Yeah. That's deep, right?

[Donald Miller]

What? Like, have you ever thought this is preparing me for something?

[Sean]

I think there's something big ahead, man. The trajectory of the show right now is just insane, girl.

[Donald Miller]

Really?

[Sean]

Yeah. This is. I mean, The White House has invited me to start doing interviews there. Like, it's getting crazy. It feels like a movie sometimes.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I don't know. And by the time I'm 50. That's crazy.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, it. It comes quicker than you think. Yeah, there's. You ever read Victor Frankl?

[Sean]

No.

[Donald Miller]

Got to read a book called Man's Search for Meaning.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

Victor Frankel was this psychologist. He lived in Vienna. He actually.

He actually. I don't know if he knew Sigmund Freud or he contended with Sigmund Freud anyway, but.

He would take his patients who were suicidal, and he believed that the cure to a lot of anxiety and depression was actually a sense of meaning. Where Freud. Freud was saying, man was driven by pleasure. Like, he gets up in the morning and he pursues pleasure. Franco says, no, he. He pursues pleasure when he can't find meaning. It's. It's how he distracts himself. But what he really wants is meaning. And meaning. He. He's. Frankel said there's a three part formula for meaning. One is have a. Have a project that you're working on be building something, a family, a business, a podcast, which why I asked the question about what did that podcast do for you? You know, if you have agoraphobia and you're. You shut down, you start a podcast. That would be an actual prescription from Victor Frankl. Wow. He would say, go start a podcast. Like, go serve. Go serve. Go do something. And the second thing was, he said, you need to do this in community. So, like, that fiance of yours, she's better than Xanax. She's better than.

[Sean]

Way better.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. She's better than an antidepressant.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like, I got married 10 years ago, and I'm a different dude.

[Sean]

I bet.

[Donald Miller]

Different dude, you know, so community is huge. My boys, you know, my fishing group, some of them are here in Vegas. We're gonna go to a show tonight.

And then the third one though is. Is really deep. He said, you have to have community project that you're working on, something that you're building, occupying your time. Can't sit around looking at your belly button. You gotta do something else. And then he said, I word it this way. He didn't word it this way. But I think this is a more succinct way of wording it. A redemptive perspective on your suffering.

[Sean]

Whoa.

[Donald Miller]

So what. What he's. What he said was, you have to figure out how getting sued is a good thing.

And he came up. He didn't come up with that. Theory. He solidified the theory in the concentration camps.

[Sean]

Really?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. He was in three of them.

[Sean]

Holy crap.

[Donald Miller]

He lost his wife, their unborn baby, and both his parents in concentration camps. And he was in Auschwitz, Dachau. I can't. He was in a couple of them and he even. In the concentration camps, he said, I've got to figure out how me being in this place is a good thing. Damn. And the theory that he came up with was, if they kill us, we go to the gas chambers and they kill us. My death will be meaningful because it will show the world how evil the Nazis are. That was his perspective. I wasn't happy about it, but anything I find, anything. That. That is the most helpful perspective I've ever found on life, period. That if the other day, I'm working on a book in New Orleans, and it's a mini book, and I'm at like 7,900 words, and it's a little book called the Anatomy of a Messaging Campaign. You know, we're gonna sell, we're gonna publish it and just give it away. And.

I went. I dropped it into Slack and it didn't go. So I'm like, what's going on? So I opened back up and it was April, I don't know, 18th. And the version was April 2nd, and it was 1900 words long.

[Sean]

Oh, geez.

[Donald Miller]

That's the worst I've felt in a really long time. And I was awful, man. All the stages of grief, like denial and negotiation and, you know, doing like. I'm even going back in the timestamps on my computer, and you probably could have found it, but I couldn't find it.

[Sean]

Was on Google Docs, wasn't.

[Donald Miller]

You sound like my wife. That's exactly what she says.

[Sean]

They record everything there.

[Donald Miller]

I know.

[Sean]

You could delete the whole document and still pull it up.

[Donald Miller]

I know. I. Well, I'm switching, but it took me about two hours. And then I said, okay.

[Sean]

Well.

It was.

[Donald Miller]

It wasn't going to do well.

Because it was too long winded. And so this was. This is fate telling me to rewrite it and make it shorter. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna rewrite it, make it shorter, and rewrote it in one day.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

And.

Turned it in. Yeah. I'll start trying to think what I do with that thing. I turned it in and made several copies of it, by the way.

I think that skill set. Some chick dumps you, man, and you gotta say, hey, two things here. One, I gotta learn whatever lesson I gotta learn here about Why I may not be attractive to the opposite sex. I gotta do something about that. So that's a gift. And second, five, seven, eight years from now, I'm gonna be married to the, the most amazing woman ever. And it wouldn't happen without this. But you gotta live that. You got to figure that out right there so it doesn't take you down.

I had a book come out when I was in, when I was your age called Blue Like Jazz. And that book spent 42 weeks on the New York Times bestsellers list.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And I grew up really poor and that book made me some money. I remember getting checks for like a couple hundred grand.

[Sean]

Holy crap.

[Donald Miller]

I would.

[Sean]

My book. That's crazy.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. I would go to the bank with that check to deposit. That's what you did back then.

[Sean]

Yeah. Now I scan it on my phone.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, exactly. And I would be like third person in line. But the really, really hot teller was going to get the fourth person. So I'd like that person.

I wanted to, I wanted to drop that check, but could you put this in my account? That's what a dork I was. But.

And I, I paid off my house and.

Was very smart with the money and I sold my house because I was going to buy a different house in Portland. I lived in Portland at the time. And I sold my house, had the money and the house that I wanted got bought out from under me. And so I'm sitting here with my entire life savings off of a New York Times bestseller. And I had a short term investment, six months come up. Said, well, you can invest in six months and you know, six months to get the money back. So just start looking for a house now. And I sunk the money into that, lost it all.

[Sean]

Whoa.

[Donald Miller]

Every penny. And I remember a week crime. I thinking it's never going to happen again. The chances of you writing New York Times bestseller are very, very slim. And, and the chances of being paid anything like what I was being paid at that time, very, very slim. And I remember having to about two weeks in. Wasn't suicidal. You know, kind of like you, but just like could have gone there, you know.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Had just started dating. It was like 12 years ago. Just started dating the woman who's now my wife. And. And now I don't have any money.

[Audible Narrator]

Right.

[Sean]

You want to tell her?

[Donald Miller]

No, I told her. But you know, women are attracted to, you know, power, looks, money. I only had money and now I don't have that.

And so I remember forcing myself, like just sitting down and just saying it over and over saying that will be the best thing that's ever happened to you, that losing all that money will be the best thing. You will look back 10 years from now and this will be the best thing that ever happened to you in your entire career, guaranteed. And I just said it over and over, that was 12 years ago. And today my wife and I give away more money every year than I lost on that day. Wow. We give it away, you know, to anti human trafficking causes, to, to friend, to friends who need money to, you know, that sort of thing. And I guess this is, you know, I'm supposed to be talking about messaging and stuff. This is so much more important. If you can figure out what Viktor Frankl is talking about here of a redemptive perspective on your suffering. Like every, it's not easy, but what he said is like your subconscious is going to list automatically without you trying every single way and every single reason that you are doomed. He said, but you can take your executive brain and make a second list of reasons that this is actually a blessing. And he said what happens is the spotlight will then shift from the negative list to the positive list and you will begin to live out of that positive list and you will make it true, more likely to make it true. And I've seen that over and over and over.

[Sean]

I love that.

[Donald Miller]

Over and over.

[Sean]

That's like the opposite approach to the victim mentality.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think victim mentality is the cancer.

[Sean]

Yeah, I agree.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I grew up with that same.

[Sean]

I think everyone did.

[Donald Miller]

Really.

[Sean]

I'm a lot of people.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, you don't have it now though, right?

[Sean]

Not as much maybe, I'd say.

[Donald Miller]

I'm.

[Sean]

Yeah, I feel like it's completely gone now. But yeah, I had it. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I go back into it.

[Sean]

Yeah. Sometimes I'll doubt myself a little bit and take, you know, put the blame on someone else. Yeah, it's easy to do that.

[Donald Miller]

It's hard not to. Yeah, I've, I've tried. It's been trying to do this pull up challenge this year. I'm trying to do like three sets of five pull ups in January, three sets of six in February, three sets of seven in March, three sets of eight. You know, and I hurt my wrist and now I can do them like every three or four days because my wrist just isn't healing. And this sounds like, it sounds so petty but that mantra of like, dude, you're getting old, you don't heal fast, you know, you're not as young as you used to be. And this is the future. It just gets worse from here. Your body starts to fault. Like, that whole thing is just so. I'm like, okay, well, let's take the executive brain out. Make a list. This is actually very humbling. You're gonna have to work harder. You'll be more proud, you know, whatever. But.

Anyway, that's a good skill set to.

[Sean]

Yeah, I love that. You should coin a term for that mindset. Trademark it.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, well, I wrote a book called Hero on a Mission, and it's about the four roles we play in life. Victim, villain, hero, God, and the hero Mindset sounds kind of cheesy, but a hero mindset is like, bring it on, you know? Yeah.

Interesting. The villain mindset is. Is about vengeance. It's about getting even for the pain that has been given to you. Like, if you. If you look at the villain and the hero in a story, they have very similar back. Back stories. The. The villain was. The reason a villain has a scar or a limp in a movie is to indicate that they were hurt and that they're responding to that pain. What's interesting is start paying attention to movies now. Almost every movie you watch, the hero is some sort of orphan. Wow. Their dad left. Their parents got divorced. They're, you know, think about E.T. well, I'm dating myself.

[Sean]

I. I watched that one. Yeah, that was on.

[Donald Miller]

That dude's dad was gone. Yeah, Daniel and Karate Kid. That dude's dad was gone. Nemo's lost his parents. You know, on and on and on. They always make him some form of an orphan. And so both the villain and the hero have a backstory of pain, but they respond to it differently. That the villain says, I'm gonna. I'm gonna seek vengeance on a world that has hurt me, and I'm going to cause other people pain because I've. Pain has been given to me. And the hero says, I'm going to stop this from happening to anybody else. And so they actually. They wake up and they serve the world, and they try to protect the world from the pain that they experienced, and the villain tries to cause more pain. It's fascinating.

[Sean]

That is fascinating.

[Donald Miller]

And if you think about how close those two are, like, anybody can choose the villain path or the hero path just based on how they're processing pain. And it. To me, it's, you know, the ramifications of going into. And then victim mindset. Victim mindset. First of all, I think America as a culture has gone from heroic mindset to victim mindset. And it's moving there Quicker and quicker.

[Sean]

I agree.

[Donald Miller]

And it's costing us because in a movie, a victim character or in a novel, you know, in. In terms of plot structures, the victim is a bit part. Movie's not about the victim. The movie's about the hero. The victim only plays a bit part to make the hero look good and the villain look bad. That's it. They don't transform. They don't accomplish anything. You know, they're just there to be in pain. Yeah. And if you play the victim in your life, that's exactly what will happen to you. You won't transform. You won't accomplish anything. You won't help anybody. So it's, you know, it's a. It's a road you don't want to go down.

[Sean]

100 been down there and no growth.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Nothing came from that. That mindset.

[Donald Miller]

I'm curious about you, though, with the, like, what was the pivotal. You know, for me, it was like reading Victor Frankl was actually very.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Influenced. Yeah.

[Sean]

I gotta see if it was one specific moment for me or just, like, accumulation of events. But I've always had a chip on my shoulder, you know, something that just fueled me. Like, people or. Like, why are you filming so many podcasts? It's just natural for me.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Like, I film 800 a year.

[Donald Miller]

Jesus.

[Sean]

It's got to be a record, right? It's crazy.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But I'm, like, still so energized from it. I love it. Other people are like, I get burned.

[Donald Miller]

Well, clearly been. You know, Victor Frank would say a project to work on, you know, something that.

You know, the way he says it is if you don't wake up today, the plates are gonna drop. You know, I mean, like, you. You have to have a reason to get up.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You do this with your team, your wonderful team, and then.

It'S freaking hard.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And. But it serves others, and so that's a good reason to sacrifice and actually do it, you know, that's. He calls it logotherapy. It's a therapy of meaning.

[Sean]

Well, Donald, this has been awesome. I thought we were gonna.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah. I really enjoyed, Sean. I've been looking forward to meeting you.

[Sean]

Yeah, likewise.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Can't wait to.

[Donald Miller]

You're a very unique podcast host, so I'm honored to be here. Thanks, man.

[Sean]

I'll see you in Nashville soon. We'll link your books below as well. Thanks for coming on.

[Donald Miller]

Appreciate that.

[Sean]

Yeah. Check them out, guys. See you next time.