Why EVERY Startup Needs Cloud Computing in 2024 | Kenny Li DSH #726

Summary

Digital Social Hour: Why EVERY Startup Needs Cloud Computing in 2024 | Kenny Li DSH #726

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Kenny Li, Founder of Manta Network
Release Date: September 18, 2024

In episode #726 of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in an insightful conversation with Kenny Li, the visionary behind Manta Network. The discussion traverses the critical role of cloud computing in modern startups, the evolving landscape of cryptocurrency, and Kenny's personal entrepreneurial journey. This comprehensive summary captures the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key topics, expert insights, and memorable quotes.

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1. The Evolution of Cloud Computing for Startups

Kenny Li opens the conversation by emphasizing the pivotal shift in the perception of cloud computing. Once considered a "sandbox" or a "toy" for developers (00:00), cloud computing has become indispensable for businesses launching at scale in 2024. He asserts, “I don't think you can find any business that's launching today at scale that doesn't use cloud computing. Seriously?” (00:26).

This transformation underscores how cloud infrastructure has transitioned from experimental to essential, enabling startups to leverage advanced technologies without the overhead of maintaining physical servers.

2. Introducing Manta Network and Kenny's Entrepreneurial Journey

Sean Kelly expresses enthusiasm about Kenny's project amidst a surge in cryptocurrency interest (00:29). Kenny shares the growth trajectory of Manta Network, which began as a research team three years ago and has expanded to a global team of 65 members (00:40). He highlights the supportive community that has been instrumental in the project's development.

3. Cryptocurrency Investment Insights: Bitcoin and Ethereum

The dialogue delves into the merits of investing in cryptocurrency, particularly Bitcoin and Ethereum. Kenny provides a nuanced perspective, distinguishing Bitcoin as a "store of value" and Ethereum as a platform for decentralized applications (04:00). He explains, “Ethereum is more so for this concept that people refer to as Web3, which is a decentralized network for computing and applications rather than a decentralized network for purely payments, which is Bitcoin.” (04:59).

4. Overcoming Challenges in Crypto: Scalability and Usability

Kenny identifies scalability as a significant hurdle for Ethereum and blockchain technology at large. Using a relatable analogy, he compares cryptocurrency transactions to daily activities, such as buying a coffee, stressing the importance of speed and affordability (05:07). “If I tried to pay in Bitcoin, we're going to stand there for like 30 minutes. And even with Ethereum, we're going to stand there for like an awkward 30 seconds to a minute or so.” (05:24).

He discusses ongoing efforts within Manta Network and other teams to enhance transaction speed and reduce costs, aiming to eliminate barriers to mainstream adoption.

5. The Volatility of the Crypto Market

Sean and Kenny address the inherent volatility of the cryptocurrency market. Kenny reflects on his early involvement in Bitcoin mining (07:38) and observes, “Crypto is definitely a beast of its own.” (09:33), highlighting the extreme price fluctuations and their impact on investor sentiment.

6. Regulatory Landscape: SEC's Influence on Crypto

A significant portion of the conversation centers on regulatory challenges, particularly the role of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). Kenny recounts his experience as a teaching assistant for Gary Gensler at MIT, providing him with deep insights into SEC's stance on crypto (11:08). He remarks, “Gary... he's also one of the guys that I think is the most knowledgeable about the industry.” (12:16).

Kenny discusses the SEC's actions against major entities like Ethereum and Binance, noting the broader implications for global crypto innovation. “Because of this lack of regulatory clarity, a lot of the innovation, a lot of the talent, and a lot of the opportunity is actually moving out of the west and heading into the East.” (13:57).

7. Global Perspectives: East vs. West in Crypto Innovation

Kenny highlights the dynamic shift of crypto innovation towards Eastern markets such as Hong Kong, Vietnam, Thailand, and Malaysia. He points out Vietnam's proactive policies in integrating cryptocurrency into brick-and-mortar businesses as a testament to the region's forward-thinking approach (14:44). This migration is partly driven by stringent regulations in Western countries, fostering a competitive edge for Eastern startups.

8. Personal Anecdotes: Selling Blood and Entrepreneurship

Kenny shares a personal story about selling blood to sustain his entrepreneurial endeavors when building his first cloud computing company (15:24). He humorously notes, “Another thing is actually astrology. I can get into that in a second.” (15:37), transitioning into his ventures beyond tech.

9. Ventures into Astrology and App Development

Kenny discusses his experience developing an app aimed at content creators, allowing them to monetize interactions with their audience (17:00). Despite initial setbacks with content creators perceiving the model as exploitative, the app unexpectedly gained traction within the astrology community. Kenny observes, “Astrologers were able to use my platform and charge, like, 300, 500, a thousand bucks per question.” (21:05), showcasing the app's pivot to a lucrative niche market.

10. Experiences with AI and SenseTime

The conversation shifts to Kenny's internship at SenseTime, a leading AI company focused on facial recognition technology (22:43). He provides a detailed account of the geopolitical implications of AI advancements, particularly the U.S.-China tensions over technology supremacy and the ethical concerns surrounding AI applications in surveillance (24:12). Kenny reflects, “Both sides are so conflicted against each other, and that's what leads to these sort of conflicts.” (28:31).

11. US-China Relations and AI Technology

Kenny elaborates on the complexities of the U.S.-China trade war, especially concerning rare earth minerals essential for chip manufacturing (25:18). He explains how American companies inadvertently supply technology that Chinese entities utilize for surveillance, highlighting the intertwined nature of global tech supply chains.

12. Personal Backgrounds and Cultural Insights

A lighter segment of the discussion explores the personal backgrounds of Sean and Kenny, touching on cultural heritage and upbringing (28:56). Kenny shares anecdotes about his early life in Beijing and his immigration to the U.S. at two and a half years old, fostering a bicultural identity (30:00).

13. Future of Manta Network and Closing Thoughts

Towards the end of the episode, Kenny outlines Manta Network's roadmap, focusing on solving scalability issues to enhance transaction efficiency (33:07). He encourages listeners to connect with him on Twitter, where he maintains a presence under the handle "Super Anonymous K" (33:53). Sean concludes by inviting listeners to explore Manta's ventures and stay updated on future developments (34:04).

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Notable Quotes

• Kenny Li (00:26): “I don't think you can find any business that's launching today at scale that doesn't use cloud computing. Seriously?”

• Kenny Li (04:59): “Ethereum is more so for this concept that people refer to as Web3, which is a decentralized network for computing and applications rather than a decentralized network for purely payments, which is Bitcoin.”

• Kenny Li (05:24): “If I tried to pay in Bitcoin, we're going to stand there for like 30 minutes. And even with Ethereum, we're going to stand there for like an awkward 30 seconds to a minute or so.”

• Kenny Li (09:33): “Crypto is definitely a beast of its own.”

• Kenny Li (12:16): “Gary... he's also one of the guys that I think is the most knowledgeable about the industry.”

• Kenny Li (13:57): “Because of this lack of regulatory clarity, a lot of the innovation, a lot of the talent, and a lot of the opportunity is actually moving out of the west and heading into the East.”

• Kenny Li (21:05): “Astrologers were able to use my platform and charge, like, 300, 500, a thousand bucks per question.”

• Kenny Li (24:12): “Both sides are so conflicted against each other, and that's what leads to these sort of conflicts.”

Final Thoughts

Kenny Li's multifaceted experiences—from cloud computing and cryptocurrency to AI technology and personal entrepreneurship—offer a rich tapestry of insights into the modern tech landscape. His emphasis on scalability, regulatory navigation, and global innovation underscores the challenges and opportunities facing startups today. Digital Social Hour provides listeners with a deep dive into the intersection of technology, business strategy, and personal resilience, making it an invaluable resource for entrepreneurs and tech enthusiasts alike.

For more information about Kenny Li and Manta Network, listeners are encouraged to follow Kenny on Twitter (@SuperAnonymousK) and explore Manta's official channels.

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Transcript

[A]

Of like a sandbox, a toy that only developers used in their spare time for little sort of experiments. Right. But now you Fast forward to 2024 and I don't think you can. You can find any business that's launching today at scale that doesn't use cloud computing. Seriously? Wow. Yeah, and so I think, like, that inflection point shifted the mindset from like, oh, this is just a toy, some sandbox environment to we really got to seriously look at this.

[B]

All right, guys, got Kenny Lee here from Manta Network. Thanks for coming on, man.

[A]

Thanks for having me. Sean.

[B]

Yeah, good timing as crypto is making a little surge right now.

[A]

Yeah, there's some exciting stuff coming up.

[B]

Yeah, you guys have been building this whole time, though. I'd love to hear more about what Mentor's up to.

[A]

Yeah, it's been quite a wild ride. We actually started building about like 3ish plus years ago. Started off just as a pure research team and we've expanded since then to about 65 people all around the world.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Huge community, always contributing to the project and yeah, we've just built a lot. Happy to talk about it, you know, going into any sort of details, but also, you know, happy to talk about just crypto in the space in general right now because there's a lot of exciting stuff going on.

[B]

Yeah. So let's talk crypto for Bitcoin. Do you see that as something that people should be looking into as an investment?

[A]

I think so, yeah. So I'll. I'll give a little bit of background on myself. So I was, I started off just as like a tech entrepreneur. Like, I've been building stuff in the space for quite a while now. And my first company was in the cloud computing space and this was specifically servicing, like, enterprises, so helping businesses migrate over to cloud, take on, like, newer technologies and all that stuff. And I saw this really interesting inflection point in cloud computing because before this inflection point, people always viewed cloud computing as something that's kind of like a sandbox, a toy that only developers used in their spare time for little sort of experiments. Right. But now you Fast forward to 2024 and I don't think you can find any business that's launching today at scale that doesn't use cloud computing. Seriously? Wow. Yeah. And so I think like, that inflection point shifted the mindset from like, oh, this is just a toy, some sandbox environment to we really got to seriously look at this. And, you know, as silly of an example as it is, social media is Something similar, right? Like you see, you know, when the myspaces of the world and the Facebooks of the world first came out and, or metas, I guess now. But at the time, right, like it was sort of a silly thing that teenagers and like, you know, young adults used. And even when Twitter first came out, X. Now, um, you know, I remember hearing about, oh, like who would, who would ever want to listen to someone talk about their day, right? Like that, that was the headline at that time, making fun of X. And now you see, you know, like people's tweets can make or break publicly traded companies, right? It can build or ruin international relations. And so there was that inflection point in taking social media seriously as well. I think in crypto and blockchain we've also hit that inflection point. Right. Like when bitcoin first started, it was this cypherpunk movement. It's for, used for online gambling and like black markets and you know, the dark web and all this stuff. And it wasn't really taken seriously. But now we're at a point where you see traditional large financial institutions seriously look at this and include these into their portfolios that they deliver to their own clients. And so, yeah, I think like we're in the middle of that inflection point right now. So for me, I think that's a super exciting opportunity.

[B]

Absolutely. So even though it's at an all time high, you see, you still see potential in it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think the, you know, I'm not good at predicting the prices or else I'd be a trader instead. But I do think that the trend is definitely in that direction.

[B]

Got it. Any other coins you have your eye on right now?

[A]

Um, I mean, apart from Bitcoin, I think, you know, especially with the recent news, definitely Ethereum and you know, for, for people that I guess don't really know. Right. Like, the main difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum is that Bitcoin is purely for payments or store of value. People may say, but Ethereum, you can actually build applications on top of it. So the way you can think about Ethereum is like your iPhone, where on an app store you can download an app and then all of a sudden you can use this app on your iPhone. Right. Bitcoin doesn't allow you to actually put apps on it, but Ethereum does. And so Ethereum is more so for this concept that people Refer to AS Web3, which is a decentralized network for computing and applications rather than a decentralized network for purely payments, which is Bitcoin. So I think both of those offer very distinct value propositions, both coming in a decentralized fashion. Right. So if, if you're looking at Bitcoin and you're interested in decentralized payments, right. If you're looking at Ethereum, you're interested in decentralized compute. And I think both of them have their, their sort of space and their role in the industry.

[B]

Got it. And you build Monta on the Ethereum network, right?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. So one of the issues with Ethereum right now, and I guess blockchain in general is scalability, right. So the, basically it is very expensive and slow. And so, you know, like if I went to a Starbucks right now and tried to buy a coffee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I tried to pay in Bitcoin, we're going to stand there for like 30 minutes. And even with Ethereum, right, Like if you pay using Ethereum on the Ethereum blockchain, we're going to stand there for like an awkward 30 seconds to a minute or so. And so, you know, how do we, how do we eliminate that awkwardness, that time friction? Right? Because when people go to a website, and I'm sure this statistic hasn't been updated recently, but you know, last time I read, if a page loads less than like two seconds, then you're already gone and you're looking for another site.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right. So people can't even wait two seconds for a website to load. People can't even finish a one minute long video. So how can you wait for your coffee for like long. Right. And so the question here is how do we eliminate that minute long wait? And so a lot of teams, including Manta, are building sort of these scalability solutions to address that problem. Make transactions faster, make transactions cheaper on the blockchain.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because when you use a credit card, it's instant.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Now you can even tap it on the.

[A]

Yeah, it's beautiful.

[B]

Swipe, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like that's, that's kind of one of the issues with crypto as well because it's very complicated. You know, like you're in the crypto space, I'm in the crypto space. Right. Like we've both transacted using cryptocurrencies in the past and you know, I've been transacting with cryptocurrency for a really long time now and every time I do it, I'm still very nervous. Yeah, same exactly. Right. Like is this the right wallet, address, double check, triple Check. Did I put in the right amount? Is it the right network? All this stuff, it's extremely complicated. Right. And so, like, even for people that have been in the space for years, like, if we can't even get past that fear, then how can we expect other people to?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So I think that's a huge sort of barrier in usability.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The worst anxiety I've had is sending crypto because I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm literally reading each letter. It's long. It's like 30 years.

[A]

And it's random.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's no. There's no, like, rhyme or reason to it, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And then the network, some people don't know, like, there's USDT on Ethereum network and also Binance, so you can screw that up.

[A]

And then also, like, especially if you send. On, like, a slower network, like bitcoin, you send it and you got to wait an hour in order to make sure that it did it.

[B]

Or longest hour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man. You used to do bitcoin mining?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's how I started off, actually. It was in. It was in the cloud computing business that I was working on, because in cloud computing, right, like, you've just got to have your servers up 247 whether you're using them or not. And so we just started experimenting with bitcoin mining using the servers that we already had. And so that's kind of how I, like, got into the space.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So you were early, Relatively.

[B]

Yeah. Bitcoin was probably like, hundreds back then, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, some people got in even earlier, but that's super early, I'd say.

[A]

And it's. It's really interesting because that you mentioned that, because, like, back then, I remember when bitcoin was like a couple of hundred bucks, and I was thinking to myself, like, oh, my gosh, this is it. Like, there's no more. Right. And so, like, we're at the peak, guys, and then you see it go up, and then you see it crash. And then, like, eventually you see it go up and you crash enough that you desensitize yourself to the entire price. And, like, you're. You're not really holding on to one specific sort of market cycle. But I do think you start seeing the bigger picture here because you see this pattern of going up, going down, going up, going down, and every single time. Right. Not just the price, but also the adoption. And I think that's the most exciting part, and that's why we're heading in the same trajectory that I think it's only beginning.

[B]

Crypto has to be the most volatile industry of all time, right?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

The swings are nasty.

[A]

The swings are definitely very nasty. I think, I guess, I don't know. I don't. I'm not really that literate in finance, especially not like financial history. I'm assuming that like penny stocks. Stocks are also pretty volatile, but they probably don't reach as big of a market because it's not like, you know, global. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, I meant for.

[B]

Like large market cap industries. Oh, real estate's pretty, pretty steady, I'd say.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Fiat's pretty steady for the most part.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. Crypto is. Crypto is definitely a beast of its own.

[B]

Yeah. It's a mental game. But it looks like hopefully we're coming out of despair soon.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. I mean we're already at like another all time high, right. Or close to it.

[B]

I think bitcoin might have just hit it.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. 71. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Which is crazy because it doesn't feel like a bull right now.

[A]

I know. Yeah. Right now it's. And I think it's a really interesting cycle, this market because in the past, right. By this time, at an all time high of bitcoin, you would have seen so much liquidity and interest starting to flow into other crypto markets. Right, right. All these other cryptocurrencies that are available out there. But I think this cycle, what you're seeing is all of the liquidity and all the interest is highly concentrated on the bitcoin and Ethereum side. I think one of the reasons there is because we're getting such serious institutional interest now. Right. You've got like a small volume of big players that can bring in a ton of cash. And so you, you actually see like these really heavy swings in bitcoin as well. This volatility that you didn't really actually see in the bear market. Right. I mean, like, I think if you look in there over the past month, you'll see like sudden dips in bitcoin that you would kind of only expect from like the smaller cap cryptocurrencies. Yeah. So I think like it's a good indication that larger institutions are coming in, but the larger institutions also aren't going to be looking at all the meme coins and stuff on day one.

[B]

I stay out of the meme coins, man. Lost way too much.

[A]

I feel you.

[B]

Yeah. So you were the teaching assistant for Gary Gensler at MIT at one point.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I was. I was his TA for his crypto courses. And so we met back in 2018. That's when I went to go pursue my MBA, and I was in one of his courses. And then afterwards he asked, you know, if I would like to. To be his ta. And so I said, yeah, sure, why not? And, you know, we got along really well. And then later on, he asked me, oh, I've got this other crypto course too. Do you want to be my TA there? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not?

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So that helped him with a lot of the crypto courses. I'd say that, you know, Gary, from my experience, I remember when he first came into the scene on the SEC side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, the. The market was definitely very bullish on Gary being the chairman because he was teaching these crypto courses. And I think, like, eventually the market sentiment sort of like shifted there massively.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So what was his take back then on crypto? Do you think it's changed?

[A]

No, actually, I don't think it's really changed much at all. In fact, you know, like, I think he's. He's. I. I would say at the time, and I'd still argue now, he's. He's also one of the guys that I think is the most knowledgeable about the industry. He definitely, at least at the time I remember he read more white papers than anyone I've ever.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Even in the crypto space.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And way more than a lot of VCs that I've met, so definitely. Right. Like, he knows his stuff. I think he's always taken it from, like, a lens of, like, how. How do you. How do you prove that this is not a security. Right. And I think, like, you know, anyone in his position would also have that same sort of responsibility to ask and decide from there.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're going. SEC is going after Ethereum again, right?

[A]

I think so, yeah. After. Because they already switched to proof of stake.

[B]

Yeah. Because they already fought that years ago, I thought, I guess the proof of stake is a new thing. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Damn, that's. That's rough. And they go after all the American.

[A]

Exchanges too, I think, even beyond America.

[B]

Oh, beyond.

[A]

Right. I mean, they just finished up with Binance, which is. Which was quite a. Quite an industry stir.

[B]

Yeah. That's crazy. It seems like people say on crypto Twitter at least, that the SEC is pretty anti crypto.

[A]

Yeah. I think generally that's the sentiment that the market sees. I feel like even outside of the crypto space, Right. Like, general financial markets are feeling like the SEC is, you know, at times overreaching. Oh, wow. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It must make your job tough, too.

[A]

I think, in general. Right. Like, it's. It's really interesting that you mentioned that, because the. The interesting thing about crypto is that the space moves extremely quickly, you know, on the technical innovation. Right. On the markets, on everything. And what I'm actually seeing right now is that because of this lack of regulatory clarity, a lot of the innovation, a lot of the talent, and a lot of the opportunity is actually moving out of the west and heading into the East. Right. Like, when you go into parts of Asia, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia. Right. Especially the developing countries, they're actually extremely educated and very forward thinking about crypto and its adoption.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right. Like in Vietnam, they're exploring policy that I think is probably going to be enacted sometime this summer around actually using cryptocurrency in the real world over there. So brick and mortar stores being able to accept cryptocurrency as payment and all this other stuff. Right. Like, yeah, it's unheard of in the U.S. yeah. Especially not at scale and especially not with, like, government support. Right. It's so controversial right now, but you see these smaller nations really trying to embrace that, and as a result, you see this talent flow into those areas that also sort of present that opportunity.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You used to sell your blood. We got to talk about this.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

I didn't even know you could sell your blood.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yes. I didn't know either, actually. In fact, like, you know, throughout this whole entrepreneurial journey, I've learned a lot of things that I didn't know before. Another thing is actually astrology. I can get into that in a second.

[B]

I'd love to.

[A]

Yeah. So blood is really interesting because, you know, most people, myself included, right? Like, think, okay, you donate blood to the Red Cross and you get cookies and ice cream and water and stuff, right? But if you sell your blood to scientific research, they have to pay you for it. But it's not heavily advertised. The way I found out about it was through Craigslist.

[B]

No way. That's catchy, bro.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There might be a clone of you somewhere.

[A]

Could be. Could be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you know, this is very interesting. They could have used my blood to test Covid. Who knows?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But I'm just kidding. But so when I started my company in the cloud computing space, Like, I. I really didn't know how to run a business. Right. Like, I didn't know how to scale, I didn't know how to sell. I didn't know all the basics of, like, you know, building a business. And so at the same time, right, Like, I needed to make ends meet financially. And so selling my blood was one of those ways. And the way I found the app, through Craigslist, desperate enough to go try it. And so once every six weeks, you get to go in and donate your. Or not donate, but sell your blood. And I think they gave me about, like 100 bucks each time.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's. That's kind of one of the weird little things that I did in order to make ends meet as I continued to scale out the business.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is crazy. We all start somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then the astrology side. So after the cloud computing business, I tried my hand at building an app for consumers, and actually it was targeted to content creators. And so I'll pitch you the idea and you tell me if this is interesting for you. So the idea was you're a content creator, you probably get tons of questions and tons of audience members that want to interact with you all the time. You can't sort through all the comments, you can't sort through all the questions. And so as a result, Right. Like, you don't have that engagement that you might necessarily want. So the app that we created allows content creators to set a price for, you know, responding, answering questions and all that stuff. And so one of the value propositions of this was, okay, if. If Kenny is a serious enough fan that really wants to interact with you, then he might not mind paying like 3 bucks, 5 bucks in order to show you that this is a serious question or a serious, like, comment that he wants an interaction with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Rather than just some random comment on YouTube. So that's the value proposition first. What do you think about that?

[B]

So it exists already? Did you know that?

[A]

It probably exists now?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So, Patrick bet David launched this.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

It's called the nect.

[A]

When you, when did it launch?

[B]

A couple of years ago. So it sounds like you had the idea first.

[A]

Yeah, I did.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm actually on there and I've made thousands.

[A]

So it works great. Congratulations.

[B]

I met some cool people on there too.

[A]

That's great. Yeah, that. That really makes me feel good because it validates the idea. So. So my, my idea went actually another route because when I, when I pitched it, I think I went to the wrong audience. Because my, my whole hypothesis here was these content creators that are doing like, like DIY stuff or like Python tutorials or programming tutorials in general and all this stuff, like, they get tons of questions. Questions. And so my idea was I'm going to go to them and they're going to be the first people that, you know, try out this product. And they were like, I convinced a lot of them to try it out. And then when I talked to them, their feedback was very negative because their, their audience. And I'm sure that, you know, like, this other product might have experienced the same thing. I'm not sure for them, they have this conundrum, right? Like they, they don't want to seem like they're trying to just like, you know, suck money from their audience. Right. Which is a fair problem. And so they can charge maybe three to five bucks, Right. Without looking too greedy. At the same time, when someone asks you a question and then they pay three to five bucks, they feel like they can ask you any question they want. And so they ask you this like, PhD level programming question that the YouTuber doesn't necessarily know how to answer. And so then they have to go out there and spend three hours to research it, to respond and get five bucks.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But then if they don't respond, then the audience member is even more upset because they're like, I paid this money, which by the way, they get refunded if it doesn't get answered in a certain amount of time. But the whole idea is like, you know, like, I paid this money, you're still not gonna answer me all this other stuff, blah, blah, blah. Right. So it put them into this, like, cage where they can't charge a lot, but they have to answer.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And so they didn't like that. And so. And that was also around the time when I started pursuing my MBA and the app, I just let it run by itself. And then it started picking up steam. And it was really interesting because there was no marketing behind this. It was purely a fluke, accidental. Someone stumbled upon it. It was in the astrology market. So astrologers started using it, which was really interesting because the astrologers, right. Like they traditionally were using YouTube just like, do general readings to get a massive audience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they couldn't find a way to do, like, tailored audience readings. And for their audience, like, those people were extremely devoted to the astrologers they follow.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, you're my astrologer, you're Real. And everyone else, I can't trust them, but I can trust you.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So as a result, the astrologers were able to use my platform and charge, like, 300, 500. A thousand bucks per question.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

Yeah. And so, like, I was extremely surprised because I didn't even know that there was a market for astrology at the time. Right. But, like, now, fast forward to, you know, today, I think it's. It's more apparent because everyone talks about astrology.

[B]

It's massive.

[A]

Now, back then, in, like, 2017, 2018, like, no one really talked about it. And so that's when I really learned how massive astrology was. But, yeah, so that was. That was kind of an interesting experience.

[B]

So did you find out your zodiac sign?

[A]

Oh, yeah. I'm a Gemini. What about you?

[B]

I'm Aquarius.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I don't know what, you know.

[B]

I don't know shit about. I know Aquarius are thinkers, but.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

That's about it.

[A]

I was told that Gemini are bipolar.

[B]

Really? Are you bipolar?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

You don't seem bipolar.

[A]

Oh, thanks.

[B]

It's hard to tell. I mean, we just met, but that's true. I'd have to see you in a tricky situation to determine it.

[A]

Am I. Am I bipolar? No.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think you find out when you get tested how you react. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, what do you mean? Like an official test, like a Myers Briggs? Or like.

[B]

No, like, someone comes to you with, like, stressful news and you see how you react from there.

[A]

I think I handle stressful news pretty well.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

But that's only because, like, you know, life has thrown me lemons with, like, selling blood and stuff.

[B]

Yeah. And crypto bear markets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, you worked for one of the largest AI companies in 2019.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that was a very interesting time. This is actually an internship that I did while I was doing my mba, and it actually opened my eyes to politics. And. And what's really interesting here was. So this company, it's called SenseTime, it's now publicly traded, but at the time it was still private. It was. When I went to do my internship, it was like 2,000 employees. And the reason I did it is because I've never worked outside of the US before. I wanted to understand what it's like to work in other cultures. And also the AI space at the time was booming for. For different reasons. Right now, it's for, like, AGI, so chat bots and all that stuff. Right. Well, I Mean, definitely way more than chatbots. I'm not giving this space enough credit. But, but back then, right, like, the. The hot topic was facial recognition and image detection. Right. So I think, like, that was a few years after, like, iPhone started doing, like, the facial recognition thing, and before that it was fingerprints.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I worked for this company who had the highest level of accuracy for facial recognition, which is really interesting when you think about it, because, like, you know, like the, the level of accuracy, like, people don't actually think about how important that is. Right. Like when you want to scale it up. Because when you have a country like China which is billion plus people. Right. The level of accuracy is extremely important.

[B]

They look very similar.

[A]

Yeah. 99.9% accuracy is not enough. You need like 99.9999-9999-9999% accuracy. And so that's what that business specialized in. Right. Facial recognition. And in 2019, it was an extremely sensitive time. I don't know if you were following the space or not. Like, Trump was elected and he was fighting, or the US in general and China were fighting in this, like, AI race to supremacy. And it was this battle of basically image detection. Right. Like facial recognition being the prime use case. And you know, for. On the politics side, this is what was really interesting for me. You know, the US through a New York Times article, accused China of using the technology for. For monitoring the Muslim minority, the Uyghurs. Right. Which is true. Yeah. That China did that. And so. And the prime target of that was SenseTime, the company I was working at.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And so that was really interesting because then it's like, okay, China is using AI for really bad things. Right. And you know, like, definitely the Muslim minority is what the Chinese government was using the AI for around the facial recognition. But actually China is using it for everyone in China. But the really interesting part about this story is that, you know, SenseTime at the time was an AI company, meaning that they built the software for facial detection and all this other stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so in order to use that technology, you yourself had to buy, like, the cameras, the CPUs and the servers and all this other stuff. And so there are these services people called system integrators that did exactly that. Like, so you tell me you want a facial recognition thing for your front door. And I as a system integrator, say, okay, I'll build that for you and I'll charge you X amount. And so, you know, I buy the cameras from Samsung and then the chips from intel and then the AI software from SenseTime and all this stuff, and I combine it into one package for you and sell it back to you. Right. And China did the same thing. They went to system integrators to help them with building this technology. Interestingly enough, the system integrator that built this is a New Jersey company. And so it was actually, you know, a US Company buying Chinese technology to build something that China was looking for.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And so it really opened my eyes to the politics of the situation. Right. Because it wasn't really, it wasn't really mentioned that. Oh yeah, by the way, you know, Americans are supplying this technology to China to do this. Right. It was just, oh, look at this Chinese technology and all this stuff. Right. And then in the China side, I was reading the news on the China side as well, which was saying, like, you know. Oh yeah, you know, Americans are supplying these technologies to China and all this stuff. And generally the trade war between the US and China was at an all time high. And I remember the other component of this was the rare earth minerals. And so these are all components like metal or, sorry, rare earth metals, which are all components that are used to build like chips. And so this was like the, the biggest negotiating point between the US and China because the US was saying like, oh yeah, you don't have to worry about China because China needs to listen to us because we have the, the supply, the global supply of rare earth metals as a chokehold. And China in Chinese media would say we don't need to worry about that because we have such a large reserve of rare earth metals that even if America decides to stop working with us, we've got more than enough to build chips. Right. So it's like, interesting, so weird because then you, you, your open, your eyes are opened and you're like, what the, what's the truth? You know, like both sides are so enamored by their own subjective version of reality. Right. And, and like they, they truly, I, I believe they believe what they're saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But both of them are so conflicted against each other. Right? And so like, that was, that was really interesting on the politics side.

[B]

That's fascinating. Yeah. It seems like they use the media as a tool.

[A]

Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. But, but I, I do think, like, the, they really believe what they're saying, which is also, you know, like, kind of scary. It is, you know, this, I feel like that's what leads to these sort of conflicts, right?

[B]

There's always been issues with China. Man, I'm half Chinese.

[A]

Oh, wow. Really?

[B]

I've been in Beijing.

[A]

Oh, nice, nice, nice. Mom or dad?

[B]

Mom. Yeah. Her whole family was born there and raised.

[A]

Wow. So how did your mom and dad meet?

[B]

Dude, newspaper ad.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, people used to date on newspapers. Did you know that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I. I've heard of that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So before the apps, there was newspaper ads. Okay, so you put a photo yourself and then your number, and then that's how they met in the U.S. that's crazy. Yeah. She came here from China. Okay, 20 bucks. And didn't speak English.

[A]

What was she here for college? Okay, gotcha. Wow.

[B]

She went to the best school in China. I forget the name, but Beijing University, probably. Yeah. She was a huge nerd and.

[A]

Yeah, so she just made her ad on there.

[B]

Yeah. And it worked. I don't know who put that on there. Might have been my dad, but.

[A]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[B]

Got one of them put an ad on a newspaper, and one of them reached out.

[A]

That's romantic.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. More romantic than Tinder, I'd say.

[A]

Do you. Do you guys. Did they keep the clip of that newspaper?

[B]

That'd be legendary. Yeah. Yeah, that's something you keep for life.

[A]

For real.

[B]

Yeah. But I know you were born in China, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yeah, I was born in Beijing.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

But I came to the US When I was two and a half.

[B]

Oh, that's early.

[A]

Yeah. So I guess I'm also half Chinese by that, or.

[B]

What do you like more? China or the U.S. oof.

[A]

That's a very political question.

[B]

All right. In terms of.

[A]

I'm just kidding.

[B]

Food.

[A]

Oh. You know, what's really interesting is that with food and everything, I feel like I have this curse of, like, the grass is always greener. And so when I spend time in Asia, I'm just like, you know, I really miss a really nice steak. And then when I spend time in the U.S. i'm just like, you know, I really miss, like, actually spicy food. And so. Yeah, like, you know, ebbs and flows of the world. I don't think I have, like, a clear winner there.

[B]

Okay. You are an archer.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I do it in my spare time.

[B]

That is very interesting.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I've never met an archer.

[A]

Oh, really? Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people that are archers, really?

[B]

Probably.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe it's the selection bias. Because, like, actually, what's really funny is, like, and I found this out in California, that a lot of California residents are actually gun holders as well. But no one talks about it because California is such, like, a blue state, and you know, like, guns are very, you know, red. And so I found this out after, like, visiting, like, gun stores and talking to the gun store owners and understanding, like, oh, they're always so short on supply of guns because every time they have new stock in, people just flock in and buy them.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Cali. Yeah. I never would. Yeah. So I always assumed archery is the same way. Everyone does it. No one just talks about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I guess not. It's not like golf.

[B]

Interesting. So do you need a license or can you just buy a bow?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No license.

[B]

No license.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's considered a sport, you know, and actually, that's the interesting thing about guns as well. I think in most states, you can buy rifles and shotguns without a license. Definitely California.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know.

[A]

Need a license to buy one. You need one to be able to buy a handgun and carry it with you. But I think also if you just buy a handgun and keep it in your safe at home or something, I don't think you need a license either. Wow.

[B]

That's kind of weird because shotgun does more damage, I feel like. Right. Than a handgun.

[A]

But I guess, like, there. I think the license. The main concern of the license is, like, we need to make sure that you're mentally stable to carry the gun around with you. Right, Right. But, like, I feel like it's very hard to conceal. Carry a shotgun. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Very hard. Do you. Or do you hunt with the bow? Or is it more target? Like target?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

I've never hunted with a circle thing. I've always been interested in doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Never actually did it.

[B]

You gotta hit up Joe Rogan man hunt with him.

[A]

Oh, I. I didn't know. See, he's an archer too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

See, like, I didn't know that. Right. That's why I'm thinking, like, people are archers. They just don't talk about.

[B]

I love it, dude. Well, man, what's next for Manta? And where can people learn more about you and Manta?

[A]

Yeah, like I said, right. Like, we've been building for the past three plus years, and we're really starting to catch a lot of momentum in this space. Because one of the core issues is that scalability stuff I was talking about, Right. With the simple example of buying a coffee. And so we've been out to kind of solve that problem. I wouldn't say we've completely solved it. I don't think the industry has at all. But I think that's where the opportunity is. And so that's where we're going to continue exploring. And so that's what we're going to be doing for the rest of this year and probably the next five years. And so I think that's really interesting about, you know, Manta for myself, Right. If people want to reach out to me, like, I'm there on Twitter, crypto Twitter, mostly as Super Anonymous. K. That's my.

[B]

What a name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I don't think you're Anonymous now, though.

[A]

That's the irony.

[B]

That's funny. We'll link below. Thanks for coming on, man.

[A]

Yeah, thanks, man. Thanks a lot, Sean.

[B]

Thanks for watching. Check out his stuff below.

[A]

Subscribe.

[B]

See you guys tomorrow.