Why Focus Is Every Entrepreneur's Superpower | Kass & Mike Lazerow DSH #1365

Summary

Digital Social Hour - Episode Summary

Episode: Why Focus Is Every Entrepreneur's Superpower | Kass & Mike Lazerow DSH #1365
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: Sean Kelly
Guests: Cas and Mike Lazerow

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1. Introduction to Cas and Mike's Partnership

Sean Kelly welcomes long-time partners Cas and Mike Lazerow, celebrating their remarkable 28-year collaboration both personally and professionally. Their enduring relationship is underpinned by mutual respect, effective communication, and a shared aggressive approach to business.

Cas (00:00): "You do something over and over and over again, good things happen."
Mike (01:04): "We don't take anything personally. I think that really helps in our personal side of things."

2. The Power of Focus in Entrepreneurship

Central to Cas and Mike's philosophy is the concept of focus as an entrepreneur's greatest asset. They emphasize the importance of identifying core priorities, saying no to distractions, and maintaining clarity in business objectives.

Cas (03:20): "Focus. Use how to use it as a superpower. And the entrepreneurs who focus, who know how to say no and know what to say yes to, can do whatever they want."

Sean agrees, noting his own strategy of becoming selective with opportunities to avoid dilution of efforts.

Sean (03:09): "I'm getting more picky on what I say no to."

3. Investment Philosophy and Success Stories

Cas and Mike have invested in over 100 companies, achieving impressive outcomes with approximately 35 exits, including transformative successes like Scopely and Liquid Death. Their approach is founder-centric, preferring to "bet on the jockeys" rather than just the horse, ensuring that they support entrepreneurs with the right vision and execution capabilities.

Mike (10:19): "They are not just typical VCs. We're entrepreneurs. We roll up our sleeves."

4. Building and Maintaining Company Culture

The Lazerows attribute much of their success to a strong, cult-like company culture. They advocate for radical transparency, treating employees as integral parts of the mission, and fostering an environment where everyone feels valued and aligned with the company's goals.

Cas (38:03): "We put the cult in culture, because it's still work. You can create an environment where people are laughing and they're recommending their friends and they're doing work they think is valuable."

They reject remote work, believing that in-person interactions generate the necessary energy and creativity essential for innovation.

Cas (41:12): "We're not believers in remote work. We think that if you're doing something that's important, being together, bouncing off each other, that electricity is important."

5. Balancing Business and Personal Life

Despite their aggressive business demeanor, Cas and Mike maintain a loving and supportive personal relationship. They highlight the challenges of separating business from personal life but credit their mutual respect and ability to communicate effectively for their success.

Mike (01:21): "Our love language is work. That's our love language."

They also discuss how their improved personal health and older children have enabled them to focus more intensely on their current ventures post the $750 million exit from Buddy Media.

Cas (02:43): "It's a lot easier now because our kids are older and we're healthier."

6. Perspectives on Education and Trade Schools

Cas and Mike express a nuanced view on the traditional education system. While they value college for providing structure and foundational skills, they acknowledge its high costs and question its necessity for everyone. They advocate for trade schools as a viable alternative, especially for those inclined towards hands-on careers.

Cas (21:11): "We believe in it for the right kids. We don't think it's as necessary as it was in the past."

Mike (24:20): "I'd like to also see the acceptance of trade schools, you know, in the U.S."

7. Work Ethic and Overcoming Challenges

The Lazerows attribute their entrepreneurial success to an unyielding work ethic and resilience. They discuss the relentless nature of entrepreneurship, acknowledging the high stress and lack of perfect days but embracing the "beauty in the struggle."

Mike (08:28): "There's nothing more miserable than being an entrepreneur because, you know, all the shit that's thrown."

They emphasize the importance of outworking competitors and staying committed despite personal and professional setbacks.

8. Technology and Modern Entrepreneurship

Cas and Mike explore the shifting landscape of entrepreneurship, highlighting how advancements in AI and technology have democratized the ability to build and scale businesses. They note that modern tools reduce barriers, allowing entrepreneurs to focus more on marketing and communication rather than just engineering.

Cas (15:09): "We could sit here and launch like nine companies this afternoon, literally on the back of like these AI coding platforms."

They also discuss the importance of adapting to new technologies and leveraging them to gain immediate customer feedback and iterate rapidly.

Mike (15:46): "Technology's not the barrier that it was. Oh, I can't pay 200,000 for like a full stack engineer. Now you just build yourself."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Cas (00:00): "You do something over and over and over again, good things happen."
• Mike (01:04): "We don't take anything personally."
• Cas (03:20): "Focus. Use how to use it as a superpower."
• Mike (10:19): "We're entrepreneurs. We roll up our sleeves."
• Cas (38:03): "We put the cult in culture."
• Cas (41:12): "We're not believers in remote work."
• Mike (24:20): "I'd like to also see the acceptance of trade schools."
• Mike (08:28): "There's nothing more miserable than being an entrepreneur."
• Cas (15:09): "We could sit here and launch like nine companies this afternoon."
• Mike (15:46): "Technology's not the barrier that it was."

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Conclusion

Cas and Mike Lazerow's extensive experience as entrepreneurs and investors provides valuable insights into the critical role of focus, the importance of a robust company culture, and the evolving landscape of modern entrepreneurship. Their discussions offer actionable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs looking to navigate the complexities of building and scaling successful businesses while maintaining a balanced personal life.

For more detailed strategies and their "50 Cheat Codes for Entrepreneurs," listeners are encouraged to explore their upcoming book, available on Audible and other platforms from June 3rd.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Cas]

You do something over and over and over again, good things happen. Find something that you're good at and do it again and again and again.

[Mike]

Yeah. It's rare that your passion will make the money that you need to afford your life. Keep the passion, but figure out what your talents are, and then surround yourself with people who fill in the gaps, and then supplement your life with the things you love.

[Host]

All right, guys, we got Cas and Mike here in Las Vegas.

[Cas]

Thanks for having us.

[Mike]

Yeah, let's do this thing.

[Host]

You guys have accomplished a lot.

[Cas]

Let's go.

[Host]

You've been working together for 28 years.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Cas]

You have to remind us.

[Host]

Yeah. Well done, though.

[Mike]

28 is big.

[Host]

That's very hard to do while you're dating or now married.

[Cas]

But we love each other and we like each other. So we laugh a lot and we fight well. We get over our arguments.

[Mike]

We don't take anything personally. I think that really helps in our personal side of things. But, like, at work, like, we're just like, hey, I didn't like that. Or like, you got to do this better. Why didn't you do this? And we've taken that home, which has really been effective.

[Cas]

Yes. It's very aggressive.

[Mike]

So are you. I'm not passive aggressive. What he's saying is I'm aggressive aggressive.

[Host]

I appreciate you're more direct.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

You need that.

[Cas]

Yeah, Everyone needs it. Just communicate.

[Host]

Yeah. Communication is important. How do you not let the business bleed over into the personal, though? That's super impressive to me.

[Cas]

And it's hard sometimes.

[Mike]

I think our love language is work. Right. Like, if you look at our book, it's basically our love story, while it's also a love story to all entrepreneurs. And we met. We were dating while we were working. We started our first company while we were dating. And we both, I think, have the same values and work ethic. And that's our love language.

[Host]

Yeah. Because a lot of people say not to mix the two.

[Mike]

I know.

[Cas]

I just think if you can't work with people you love, who do you work with? People you hate. Like, people you can't stand, but you.

[Mike]

Can'T have overlapping skills. That's the. That's a key here.

[Cas]

We don't. But we don't think. We think that if you have. Are in different lanes, it's much better than if we overlap and we're in very different lanes.

[Host]

That's true. Because sometimes you'll work with a close friend. You have similar skill sets. And then you guys just.

[Mike]

While you fight or you have like, paralysis of decisions. You can't. You can't do anything because you're both micromanaging the process or you both want your input heard as opposed to, like, clear divisions, which is what Mike and I have. We just know each other, and we know who has the expertise in that lane.

[Host]

And I was talking to Mike out there. It seems like you guys are grinding as much as you had in the past.

[Cas]

We're working harder than we've ever worked, which is. Love it. We love it.

[Host]

Yeah. Because you guys had, you know, $750 million exit and no slowing down.

[Mike]

No, no, no, no.

[Cas]

It's a lot easier now because our kids are older and we're healthier. At the end of Buddy Media, which we sold, you know, the salesforce for close to a billion dollars, we weren't very healthy. I weighed 40 pounds more. I was not the best version of myself. We are with older kids, we're able to kind of focus on ourself a little more, which is hard for entrepreneurs, as you know. Look at how you're hustling.

[Host]

I'm getting more picky on what I say no to.

[Cas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because I'm getting so many opportunities now, but if I said yes to all them, I wouldn't. I'd be too distracted.

[Cas]

I think it's one of the key cheat codes from the book is focus.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Like focus. Use how to use it as a superpower. And the entrepreneurs who focus, who know how to say no and know what to say yes to, can do whatever they want. Most entrepreneurs can do anything they want. They just can't do everything.

[Host]

Would you guys say focus was the biggest skill early on that impacted?

[Mike]

Definitely when we started, I think, you know, we decided our last company, we had a business model that changed three times. We pivoted three times. So when you do lots of pivots and you're trying to find that, like, customer feedback that works, you have to focus. Right. Because it's easy to say, well, maybe they would have liked this or maybe they would like that. Like, you have to go for it. And really good entrepreneurs, they look at, like, a failed product launch as getting one step closer to, like, figuring things out. So you gotta focus. That's the number one thing. I know that's Mike's number one cheat.

[Cas]

By far. By far.

[Host]

And these days, that's a hard skill to have.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Cas]

Yeah, it's hard. But if you focus on the right things, you can literally do anything. And I. I reminds me of when Facebook went public. They didn't have a Mobile strategy. Once they focus on it, the rest is history. Right? And so it's not only what are you focused on, but should you be focused on anything else that is more important? And oftentimes you're tripped up by stuff that you didn't focus on that you should have.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

And so focus. As you know, we've been over a hundred investments into other entrepreneurs and we support them every day. And the question I ask every time is what are your top three priorities? And if they don't know it, they're fucked. Damn. Yeah. If they don't know it, then their organization doesn't know it. Their investors don't know it.

[Host]

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[Cas]

Doesn'T know it. But if an entrepreneur is like, you know, we gotta sell, gotta build product, gotta service it with excellence, gotta build, you know, culture that scales. Like then you're like, oh, this person has their stuff together.

[Host]

Yeah. Cause a lot of people focus on the wrong things, right? In business especially, or they don't focus at all.

[Cas]

Like we're in a world where you could do anything like and you've inbound.

[Mike]

Through like it's scope creep. I mean, you know, all these entrepreneurs, everything's cool, everything's the newest thing and they can't really draw a circle around what is it that they're going to build, right? Or what is it that they're trying to come up with. But focus is the thing they have to yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. I've never struggled with focus and work ethic, and a lot of people are, like, way smarter than me, but I feel like those two skills are what got me to a pretty good level.

[Cas]

I am definitely not the smartest in the room, but I can outwork anyone. Cass is smarter.

[Mike]

Wait, wait, wait. You can't outwork me. You cannot outwork me.

[Host]

I love it.

[Mike]

You cannot.

[Cas]

I used to be able to. I don't work as a step.

[Host]

You lost a step. I did.

[Cas]

Um, Cass is. Yeah, Cass is a monster.

[Host]

That's good. You guys compliment each other.

[Mike]

Well, yes, very well.

[Host]

I'm in a similar relationship. My wife, my soon to be wife is way smarter than me.

[Cas]

Way to go.

[Host]

That's the way to do it.

[Mike]

Punch up.

[Cas]

You're really smart.

[Mike]

You got to punch up.

[Host]

Yeah, no, it keeps me grounded. It keeps me. She keeps good people around me. Yeah.

[Cas]

Yeah. I always love smart women. None of them like me. That's the problem. But yes, smart, strong women. Nothing better.

[Host]

Yeah, I'm a sapiosexual, actually. Do you know that?

[Cas]

I have heard of it, but I cannot tell you what it is.

[Host]

Basically, it's if you're attracted to intelligence.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

So in friendships and in dating. Yeah, I am. That's my number one quality. Like, that comes before looks. It comes before everything else.

[Mike]

I love that.

[Cas]

Maybe that's what you are also. It definitely wasn't the look. It wasn't the cross eyes.

[Mike]

It was definitely the mind. It was definitely the mind.

[Cas]

I like that.

[Host]

Yeah, I think.

[Cas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Look into that, man. You might need a little diagnosis.

[Cas]

Yeah, let's go therapy.

[Host]

So you guys have invested in over 100 companies, you said?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's insane. Is it still actively going on right now?

[Mike]

Yes, for sure.

[Cas]

We're addicted to entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and companies and going from 0 to 1 and then 1 to 100. Not all of them go from 1 to 100. Some of them die. But we think there's nothing more exciting. It's our sport.

[Mike]

Yeah. And there's beauty in the struggle. Right? J. Cole said it. Our son, actually our oldest son, has this tattoo, you know, beauty and the struggle, and there's nothing more we'd rather do. And there's nothing more miserable than being an entrepreneur because, you know, all the shit that's thrown, you know, you know what it's like your way every single day. There's no perfect day. I don't think we've ever met an entrepreneur who's like, yeah, this is easy.

[Host]

You're telling me.

[Mike]

Or, oh, I have enough sleep and I work out every day and everything's great. My kids are happy. I'm totally thriving. That's not what entrepreneurs say. And they love it.

[Host]

Yeah. You got two extremes. I just measured my stress levels yesterday, and they were off the charts.

[Mike]

But at the same time, would you do cortisol measurement?

[Host]

It was a crazy test. He's coming on after you guys if you want to do it. Basically, you speak into his computer.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it measures everything. Like, technology and AI is just so interesting to me. How.

[Cas]

That's incredible.

[Host]

Yeah. It's insane.

[Mike]

I'm sure my cortisol levels are always high.

[Host]

Yeah. My adrenals were high and everything. All from my voice. Like, he knew every single organ that was having an issue.

[Mike]

That's crazy.

[Host]

Crazy. That's what I'm excited about.

[Mike]

I'm interested to see if you could do that and then overlay it to, like, pernuvo, where you get.

[Host]

I took a pernuvo.

[Mike]

Right. And then, like, do full body and then blood work. Blood work together.

[Host]

So I did all these tests. I put it into chat gbt and asked for, like, a plan on how to fix all my issues within three seconds.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's the best.

[Host]

I mean, before you had to go to five doctors in person, you would say no.

[Mike]

You know?

[Host]

Yeah. They would give you Western medicine. That's all.

[Cas]

Whatever you're doing. You look great.

[Host]

Thank you. You guys, too, though.

[Mike]

Thank you.

[Host]

For 28 years of hard work.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Cas]

For 51 years on this earth. She's a little older, so she had a few.

[Host]

Okay. Yeah, let's go.

[Cas]

It's just a fact. It's on Editorial, whatever.

[Host]

What percentage are you guys shooting out of those 100 investments? Because you hear these crazy stats with VCs, one out of every 10 or whatever.

[Cas]

So we don't believe in that. We believe, like, everything we do, we want to do well. And we don't assume some are going out of business. Having said that, you know, we've had, out of Those hundred, about 35 exits. There are about 10 of them that are transformative. Those are companies like Scopely, which we seeded, which sold for $5 billion, and companies that haven't exited. And we were seed investor and liquid death. Seed investor in a lot of the companies that, you know, many of your listeners, viewers have heard of. And the reason is we are not just typical VCs. We're entrepreneurs. We roll up our sleeves.

[Mike]

That's right.

[Cas]

We say to all the entrepreneurs, give us one thing to do, and we'll do it and we're done. Give us another thing. And that's how we win. The love of entrepreneurs and deal flow.

[Host]

Well done. Those are impressive stats, man.

[Cas]

I mean, the winners are awesome. And they. The good news, I'm not a math major. Okay. I just want to get that out there right now. I went to journalism school, but you can only lose one time, your times, your money. So if we invest a million dollars, we can only lose a million, but you can make like a thousand times that right on the upside. So I just love the math of, like, the winners are so much more powerful. And if you're good, meaning pick the right entrepreneurs in the right markets with differentiated products, then big can be really big. And we've seen it. We've have, you know, investments where the founders became billionaires, which we love.

[Host]

Damn, that is crazy.

[Cas]

And there's nothing better to see, like, entrepreneurs, like, busting their ass for 10 years and just reap the rewards.

[Host]

American dream, right?

[Cas]

Yeah, Global dream. I mean, it's everyone in the world.

[Host]

Oh, so you guys are investing everywhere?

[Cas]

Oh, yeah, we do, but like every. I mean, entrepreneurship is like a global sport now.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Like, you go to Asia, Europe, anywhere. We were in Africa in December. Like, you know, everyone wants to start businesses.

[Host]

That's cool. And do you guys target certain markets depending on the trends, like AI right now or anything, or you kind of go by the founders.

[Mike]

I mean, I go by the founders, so I, I bet on the jockeys. Right. So, you know, Mike gets a ton of deal flow. We're known as investors who actually roll up their sleeves and do the work and actually, like, execute what we're saying that we will do. There's a lot of investors out there who say they're going to help and then don't do anything. And when Mike throws a deal over, it means that the market's right, the product's differentiated, he knows how it's going to be going to market, it's how it's going to be delivered, and it makes sense on the back of a napkin, the unit economics. So by the time it gets to me, I'm looking to see if the founders are the right ones. Can they actually scale? Do they know what they don't know that's the biggest thing. And do they know how to, like, form a leadership team around them that fills in all their gaps? So I've been on jockeys.

[Host]

Yeah, the team is everything, Right.

[Cas]

I bet on races, she bets on jockeys, races. Well, everyone's kind of like, you bet on the Horse or the jockey. Right. And I think the companies that have done well are in the right race. Right. So it's about like, and the race meaning, like how big is the market? Like if you want to win a million bucks, like, you're not going to enter a horse into a tiny race. You're going to go after the Kentucky Derby.

[Host]

Right.

[Cas]

And so a big part of what we do is just huge markets. People are like, how did you know Liquid Death was going to be big? The answer is we didn't know. Right. Like, that's a company that really caught lightning in the bottle because Mike Cesario is such a good marketer. But what we did know was that water was the building block of life and the largest non alkali market. Right, right. Like water. Here we're drinking water. Right. You need water. And we're in a world where kids aren't drinking like they used to.

[Mike]

That's right.

[Cas]

And so for us, it's about like, is it a big enough market to build a really big business? And if it's a tiny market, we're probably not interested unless it's a cash flow business that we're buying control of.

[Host]

Yeah. Liquid Death was so impressive to me because like marketing water, that. That's just really hard.

[Mike]

It just seems so silly. I mean, when he first brought it to me, I was like, I don't know, Mike, are you kidding me? And then I started looking at, into like marketing and how he came up with, you know, Mike Cesario came up with everything. And I was like, this is going to be like, this is going to be huge.

[Host]

I mean, you're starting to see these creator Brands like Mr. Beast with feasibles totally entering spaces that have been dominated for 100 years.

[Mike]

Yeah. And shaking them up.

[Cas]

And it's just starting. Like you combine like your person as media company. Right. Like you with kind of the ability to build stuff fast. Like we could sit here and launch like nine companies this afternoon.

[Host]

Wow.

[Cas]

Literally on the back of like these AI coding platforms. Lovable and replit and all these. And so I think the power and why it's so exciting for you and for your audience is that the power has shifted from the engineer. So skills that very few of us have. We don't. To the marketer, to the communicator, to the business side. And that's really exciting. All of a sudden technology's not the barrier that it was. Oh, I can't pay 200,000 for like a, you know, full stack engineer. Now you just build yourself. I'm Building stuff at Cast. Like, why are you wasting your time? Like, I want to know these tools.

[Host]

Wow.

[Mike]

And our son, our oldest son, who's 23. Hey, Miles, if you're out there, he just started a company and, you know, he realizes that he just doesn't need a huge team. He and his co founder can do what they need to do. Like just them. Which is incredible. When I think back to Buddy Media, we got up to like 350 people, I would say. How many of those do you think were engineers? A hundred.

[Cas]

Yeah. Raise a hundred million because like we had to build and then sell. Now you just build and sell. And if you have built in distribution like you have, you can build stuff really fast and see what sticks. Yeah.

[Host]

A lot less risk these days.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Immediate feedback from your customers. Right.

[Host]

So yeah, I'm excited. That's probably the next step for me because we're getting like 200 million views a month right now.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

I could figure out a product or service I align us to.

[Cas]

Like, we're not, you know, we're focusing more on like, how do we launch businesses than just invest. Because companies aren't going to need the money. You know, we just had dinner south by Southwest with an entrepreneur, young entrepreneur from Poland who launched an AI company and they got to 100 million of ARR with people.

[Mike]

And how long did it that take?

[Cas]

That didn't happen.

[Mike]

Tell them how long it took.

[Cas]

It took like 12 minutes because this guy was like 13 years old. Like, it took nothing. And I. And I was both jealous. I'm like, dude, you're young, handsome, rich, and you don't have to manage all these employees. But also super fired up because he was using AI tools that others had built to build his AI tooling in the voice space. Like AI voice space. And you're just going to see great companies built by dreamers. And you know, people are, oh, all the ideas are taken. There's nothing else to do. Well, look at liquid death.

[Mike]

Right?

[Cas]

Like, look at any of these shake things. Newer companies, like, you know, look at pop up bagels, which is a new bagel. Like crazy.

[Mike]

I love how you say bagel. Bagel, Bagel, bagel.

[Host]

I say bagel.

[Mike]

Bagel. Can you say bagel?

[Cas]

Whatever it's called. But like he innovated on the most simple bread product. Right. So anyone?

[Host]

The one in New York, right? Yeah, I think I saw a story about that.

[Cas]

It's going national.

[Host]

We need them out here. The bagels suck out here.

[Cas]

Yeah, well, I wish they sucked in New York. Because I love them and they just like go right here.

[Host]

I grew up on bagels, man, in Jersey. I miss them.

[Mike]

We have them every day.

[Cas]

We love pizza.

[Host]

You get the Taylor Hammer.

[Mike]

Just plain my. Yeah. I mean, I'm a. I'm a big plain fan. Or cinnamon and raisin. I know that's like very, like basic, controversial.

[Cas]

I like everything bagel. I like stinky. Throw some salmon on it. Just. People know I'm coming from a mile away.

[Mike]

Tomato, onion, capers, salmon. Can you imagine that?

[Cas]

This is after you get married. You know, you gotta, like, play cool while you're not.

[Mike]

And safe.

[Cas]

Yeah. 25 years in, I'm just stinking it out.

[Host]

Yeah. Little hot and juicy. Have you been there?

[Mike]

Oh, I even know what that is.

[Host]

You'll be sticking for two days.

[Cas]

Okay.

[Host]

It's the seafood boil.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah. No, not. Yeah, it does.

[Cas]

A strip club.

[Host]

No, I don't go out there.

[Mike]

No.

[Host]

So you mentioned the daughter and I know you mentioned the son. What do you guys think the best ages these days? To have kids.

[Mike]

To have kids. Okay, so. Well, most people think we were young when we had them. We had. I had. I was 30 and he was 27. So I feel like he was young. I actually think that the earlier you can have them, the better, I think, think the recovery of your body is just. Especially for the female side is just. It's a lot. It's a lot. And the toll of the stress of. Of literally keeping another human being alive is. Is probably best done when you're youngest.

[Host]

Okay.

[Mike]

Now I know that that's if you want them.

[Cas]

Like, if you want kids.

[Mike]

Well, duh, then I think, I mean.

[Cas]

So if you want kids, have them.

[Mike]

Right now his question was, when do you think the optimal time is?

[Cas]

The optimal time is when you want them.

[Mike]

Oh, my God. No.

[Cas]

A lot of people I have found.

[Mike]

Here we go.

[Cas]

Either get talked into it by their significant other or they're both a little wishy washy. Right. So if you want to have them, have them right away. But it's okay. Not having kids. Like, kids are.

[Mike]

Well, that's true.

[Cas]

There's big investment.

[Mike]

There's zero ROI on kids.

[Cas]

Can't fire them. We like companies. So you could fire people. Yeah. Like, they're not working out. Your kids, you can't fire.

[Host]

That's true.

[Mike]

The ROI, I think happens when they get old, like 20. And then we think, we think you'll see kids. I think the ROI is about grandkids, but that's a big. That's a long investment. Think about that. That could be 30 years before you get. Yeah, the return on investment is very low.

[Host]

You look at the stats on how much parents spend on their kids every year. It's pretty crazy.

[Mike]

Oh yeah. So I was saying this to my friend the other day. We set up those. I can't remember what they're called, the accounts for college funds.

[Host]

Right.

[Mike]

And now that our daughter. So that'll be the third kid, right. Is. Is going to college. That money is ready. It's like we're going to have income now because I can just spend that money now on her, you know, in her college. I loving it. No more expenses, Viv.

[Host]

Let's go. Speaking of college, so did all three of your kids go to college?

[Mike]

Yes.

[Cas]

One graduates this year. We've a junior Emory and one starting at Northwestern in the fall.

[Host]

Nice. You guys are believer in that system still?

[Cas]

It's a good question.

[Mike]

Yeah. I don't.

[Cas]

We. We believe in it for the right kids. We don't think it's as necessary as it was in the past. So there's no shame involved. Companies are hiring people who didn't graduate. We don't care.

[Mike]

We. We hired people who didn't graduate.

[Cas]

I'll tell you, if you went to Harvard Business School, we're not hiring.

[Mike]

No, no.

[Cas]

Really?

[Mike]

No, no, no. That' your thing. You didn't get into Harvard.

[Host]

Ah, he's bitter.

[Cas]

I just find them entitled.

[Mike]

Like, hey, wait, but still, did you apply to Harvard? Yes.

[Cas]

Yeah, I got rejected.

[Mike]

Okay. So, yeah. So let me, let me answer the question. I think there was no alternative, I think to college for the three kids. I think our oldest needed to go because it was an exercise of getting through something, having a goal, sticking with it long enough even if you're miserable. Right. Do I think he actually learned a lot in school with like what he studied? No, I don't. Middle guy, I think he probably hasn't enjoyed classes, but I think he's loved the living, being an adult, learning how to adult. I think our daughter who wants to study like cancer and science, she's going to need those classes.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Mike]

Yeah. And I think she's going to love it. But no, I don't think everyone needs to go. I just don't think there's an alternative with a safety net for a majority of people if you don't go.

[Cas]

We're also among.

[Mike]

Wait, let him hear that.

[Cas]

Luckiest people in the world.

[Mike]

Let him hear that. You get what I'm saying?

[Host]

I'm processing that. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Host]

Safety Net.

[Mike]

Because like, if you say, okay, fine, no one goes, there's going to be a lot of people with no structure and nothing to do and they're going to fall apart.

[Host]

Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. My thing I guess is the tuition aspect too. It puts a lot of people in debt.

[Mike]

Stupid. One of our friends kids got into U Miami. It's like $78,000 a year.

[Host]

That is insane.

[Cas]

Well, that's my point. Was going to be like, we're the luckiest people in the world.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Cas]

Right. Our parents were middle class, they could afford education.

[Mike]

Born on third base.

[Cas]

Yeah. So we're very cognizant of who we were born into. And our kids are even more fortunate. Hopefully they're listening. And I think the cost sets a lot of people back. And when I look at like four years of like doing something, so do something where you can show up and say, here's what I've done. Because that's what we care about. We don't care about like where you went to school, what you studied, what have you done. Right. So even if you, like, if you're working at McDonald's, if you go to Oswego, figure out your story and I think you've done this really well. What is that story that you're going to put out to the world? And it has to be based on something tangible you've done. So if you're just going to not focus for four years, you're better off going to college.

[Mike]

I'd like, I'd like to also see the acceptance of trade schools, you know, in the U.S. i think that's going to be a nice safety net. I can see that happening.

[Host]

Those jobs are coming back right now because my generation's super lazy.

[Mike]

Yeah. Well, so it, it, I don't want to like totally agree, but I agree.

[Host]

Well, when it comes to like using our hands and stuff, like if you asked a 25 year old to change.

[Mike]

A tire, they would not know how. Most of them wouldn't know, but it's not taught anymore. So I like the idea of trade schools. I like what Mike says in terms of like, what does your resume say? Talk about what you've done, talk about what you've worked on. Right. And I just think that you have to have that kind of structure. I think most people will need that.

[Host]

Yeah. I look at it also from the point of view of like how you're allocating the money. So like, would I rather spend 50k a year on college or a mentor like Gary Vee or Someone.

[Mike]

Well, but can you. Can everyone get that mentor?

[Host]

Yeah, that's true.

[Mike]

So, like, I keep thinking, like, it's easy to say that. I mean, let me give you this story. So when we started Buddy Media, one of the interns that we had. Gotti. Right. He came from Northwestern, right?

[Cas]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And journalism school. And he was a freshman, and he did so well at our company that summer, Mike turned to him and said, don't go back to college. And I literally. We had, like, a screaming match about this because I said, you can't say that he's gonna go back to his mother. A. And first of all, you're gonna get a phone call. And second, like, this kid needed structure. Right. He needed that foundation.

[Cas]

Did he, though?

[Mike]

Yes, he did.

[Cas]

We'll never know. Cause he went back.

[Mike]

He went back. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Most people need the structure. I'm not saying that it's worth the money or the four years. I would love for college to be a little bit more efficient and mindful of time. And actually, what you're doing. I'm not a big fan of all the required classes.

[Host]

Oh, I hated those. That's why I dropped out.

[Mike]

I mean, it's just so stupid. I'm not a fan of, like, oh, you have to take a language. Didn't we do that all in high school?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, didn't we have that forced on us in high school Spanish class?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like, why do you have to pick it up in college? Why can't you pick what you want to study?

[Host]

Yeah. Well, you went to journalism school, you.

[Cas]

Said, and journalism, you mastered in it. They had an accelerated program, so I got a master's in journalism, which I have not used at all.

[Mike]

That's not true. You're an incredible writer.

[Host]

Okay, thank you.

[Cas]

Thank you, Cass.

[Mike]

You're welcome.

[Cas]

Honestly, I started a company at Northwestern because the Internet was happening. So I'm 50. This is 1994. The Internet, the commercial Internet was happening. We're talking about Marc Andreessen and Mosaic and Netscape, and Yahoo was now around. And so I'd launched a company in college and spent most of my college career, at least in junior and senior year, working on my company, which at the time, very few people did. Now everyone has a company in college, it seems, including our son. And that just set me on a path that if you can go to college and focus on something you love and just continue to put in the time, I think what we've realized. And you're an incredible example of this, you do something over and over and over again, good things happen. You get good at it, you get known for it, and you build a network and you can see opportunities that other people can't see. So a lot of people are jumping around every year, every two years, or trying different things. We don't think you have to be passionate about it. I know that you are passionate about what you do as we are, but find something that you're good at and do it again and again and again, and you'll have a life you like.

[Host]

I like that.

[Mike]

And then supplement, you know, you. You know, kids always talk about, like, oh, but I've got to only do follow your passion. Right. Figure out what you know, all that kind of stuff. It's rare that your passion will make the money that you need to afford your life. I think that's rare. And so instead of having that mindset, keep the passion, but figure out what your talents are, and then surround yourself with people who fill in the gaps and then supplement your life with the things you love. Right. If it all of a sudden intersects synchronicity. Right. Great. But if not, you know, you got to know what pays the bills. Right. If you want to have an independent life in which you're functioning and. And have a balance of some kind of, you know, something that you do that you love, that's another way to do it.

[Host]

You got to be realistic. Yeah. I mean, when I started this, I sucked at it, and I. It was uncomfortable.

[Mike]

Right. Doing the hard stuff.

[Cas]

Yeah, we know how you feel. I mean, we're reengaging with content, and just in the last year, it's like, man, we really suck. Do we? We still suck. But in five years, like, keep this tape. In five years, we're going to be awesome.

[Host]

Oh, I bet.

[Cas]

Because we do it every day, and it's kind of a practice now, and it's getting more comfortable. We listen to people who are doing. We started. We had zero, and we reached, what, 1.3 million people last year.

[Host]

That's impressive. Yeah, well done.

[Cas]

So it's just keep doing it. And our kids. What's great is your kids don't listen to anything you say. You could tell them, don't do that, do that. It's just like, out of their head. But they pay attention to everything you do, so they are watching. And your priorities and so how you treat people, how hard you work your relationship. If you're a screamer, they're going to be a screamer. If you kind of eat like crap, they're going to eat like, crap.

[Mike]

We notice the. The biggest thing, like, Mike and I were talking about what he just said the other day. You know, we obviously, you know, we weren't healthy during our last company. In the last, like, 12 years, we've really concentrated on health and longevity and really hitting the gym again. And now all three kids work out.

[Host]

Wow.

[Mike]

And when we tried to get them, you know, 12 years ago, like, hey, come work out. They didn't want to have anything to do with us.

[Host]

They didn't take you serious.

[Mike]

And it's like, it doesn't matter what you say. It's what you do. And now they all work out.

[Host]

Lead by example, right?

[Mike]

Yes.

[Cas]

And Cass has the lifts. More leg weight than anyone in the family.

[Host]

Really?

[Mike]

That's not true.

[Cas]

More than me.

[Host]

Well, what's your leg press?

[Mike]

No, no, a lot. Leg press is not. We were doing deadlifts. We're doing the.

[Host]

Dang. You guys are deadlifting.

[Cas]

Yeah, I hate it, but she was an athlete. She has me doing it, but she's a monster.

[Mike]

It's good. It's good for you. You have to work on legs.

[Cas]

You would have three minutes.

[Mike]

You got to do legs twice a week. Most people just do it once or nothing.

[Host]

I do it twice a week because I'm trying to increase my vertical jump right now. I got a basketball game tonight.

[Mike]

Oh. Oh. What. What position?

[Host]

Well, I used to be center, but 6. 6 ain't center height anymore these days. Oh, my gosh, these kids are freaks. They're like seven feet minimum.

[Mike]

Right.

[Cas]

And they could all jump.

[Mike]

Well, can you. Can you shoot then?

[Host]

I can't. I need to develop that.

[Mike]

So. So what's your skill then?

[Host]

My game is fast Break layups.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Host]

Yeah, because I was a tracks. Track runner.

[Mike]

You're fast.

[Host]

I'm fast?

[Cas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Ran the 800 meter.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Cas]

I mean, six. Six. Fast is valuable in basketball.

[Host]

Yeah. But, yeah, I'm probably like a power forward these days. I can't be a center anymore.

[Cas]

And who do you play against? Is like lifetime league.

[Host]

It's big in New York, actually.

[Mike]

Yeah, we're. I'm a member there.

[Host]

Real big in New York. They come here for the national basketball tournament every year.

[Mike]

Amazing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You guys got into pickleball at all?

[Host]

I tried it twice. I have the right frame for it because I'm long and skinny.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I think I'd be good if I took it serious. Are you guys pretty avid pickleball players?

[Mike]

I am, yeah.

[Host]

You play doubles? Mixed doubles.

[Mike]

I will not play mixed doubles with him.

[Cas]

We can work Together, but I can't compete. I'm not what they call an athlete.

[Mike]

No, no, no, that's not true. He's. He's pretty good. He wasn't. He's pretty good. The issue that I have is Mike's way of showing his competitiveness is not how I show it and need it on the court. So I am extremely competitive.

[Host]

Right.

[Mike]

I grew up playing tennis. I played in college. I played after college. And I need him to want to win. And there's a switch that I can't turn off. And Mike sometimes thinks that this is just for fun. And for me it's not.

[Cas]

It's pickleball.

[Host]

You don't take it serious.

[Cas]

I. I do with her, but if she sees a neck, she'll step on it.

[Mike]

On the court.

[Cas]

On the court.

[Host]

Like a weakness. You'll exploit it.

[Mike]

Yes, for sure.

[Cas]

For me, I think, like, I like having fun playing sports as.

[Mike]

As do our kids. I mean, our, our boys are.

[Cas]

I never competed at the level she did. She was a two sport college athlete.

[Mike]

And finally admit that. Thank you.

[Host]

Wow.

[Mike]

Well, they're D1, Mike.

[Cas]

It's golf and tennis. It's not real sports.

[Host]

But tennis is a tough sport.

[Mike]

Dude, what are you.

[Cas]

They're not team sports. They're not team sports.

[Mike]

It's.

[Cas]

I'm gonna get a lot of hate for that one. But I will tell you.

[Mike]

And that's untrue.

[Cas]

It's why she's so good at business, because she doesn't lose. And I think our losing. I love that our kind of drive comes from, like, more of fear of losing than, like the glory of winning. Like, we never thought about, oh, we're make all this money, we're going to have an independent life. It was like, if we fail, we're like, everyone, everyone's going to think we're losers.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Cas]

And rejection is always, like, for you.

[Mike]

I'm much more about just.

[Cas]

You never really got to reject it as much as I did, which is true. You got into schools because of tennis. You got jobs.

[Host]

Getting personal here.

[Cas]

No, I got rejected from four out of the five schools.

[Mike]

I applied to them. That's my whole thing.

[Cas]

But I love that I did because those rejection letters have a stack of 60 of them on my desk, and they've been on my desk every day of my life.

[Host]

That's your motivation?

[Mike]

Job, jobs and all the colleges.

[Cas]

Yeah. There's no, like, rejection letters from, like, chicks, like, like, well, what else would it be?

[Mike]

All of a sudden you said like 60. I was like, you didn't apply to 60 colleges.

[Cas]

No. The jobs. Like, I applied to a lot of internships in college. I always wanted to work. And all these newspapers were like, no, thanks.

[Host]

Wow.

[Cas]

And I went back and I looked at the hiring managers on the letters and they're all like, most of them are losers.

[Mike]

Hey.

[Cas]

Which I like. I went back and I looked and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm so happy.

[Host]

So you hold some resentment towards those that wrong.

[Mike]

It's not resentment for, like, fuel.

[Cas]

We had, like. So I don't remember all of our investors, but I remember every VC who said no to us.

[Host]

Wow.

[Cas]

Everyone. And I see them at a lot.

[Mike]

Of events and we know the ones too, who looked at us and were like, oh, we're not going to invest in a company.

[Cas]

Like, there's some who said, like. And big ones, like, brand name ones. There's one who pulled a term sheet. We got a term. She was so happy. And they're like, oh, we, you know, we talk to the partnership. We have to take it back. Which is bad if you're an investor who gives a term sheet to a founder and the founder they get, I mean, it's the best day of their life.

[Host]

It's closed at that point.

[Cas]

Yeah. And then to hear a few days later that it's like, oh, psych. Right. I was joking.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

I see that guy everywhere and I'm so happy because, like, it cost them. It was early.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

It cost them 81 times their money on Buddy Media because it was this. It was the early round.

[Mike]

I know. And. And Mike also.

[Cas]

But I love that. I love.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, I can follow that guy around and stand by him.

[Cas]

Yeah. I'll, like, be super happy.

[Host]

I'm not that petty, but I think getting bullied early on for me definitely motivated me.

[Cas]

It's just. What? It's just my motivation. And I'm super friendly to all of them. Like, I don't have a mean bone in my body. Unless I. Unless someone really rejected you. No, not rejected me. I'm nice to all of them. I don't necessarily, like, cheer for them.

[Mike]

I'll tell you one thing, because they.

[Cas]

Weren'T cheering for me.

[Mike]

I'll tell you one thing that you changed for me, which was interesting, is Mike would never allow. If someone in our company decided to leave, which was very rare, he would never allow a party for them. He's like, why are. Why are we celebrating them leaving? It's just the wrong way to look at it. And you celebrate people on the way in.

[Cas]

If they're going to another company. I know, like, if they were, like, for some reason, but there was this culture, I don't know if it still exists, that, like, when people leave a company, you have like a going away lunch.

[Host]

I heard about that.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cas]

And I was just like, no fucking way. Like, we celebrate people the day they start and every other day, but once they're not on our team, I wish them well and I hope they do great, but they're just not on the team. Right. It's like, you know, one business. Yeah. Like, when someone leaves your basketball team, you're like, great.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Like, you're not on the team. I also talk to you and I.

[Mike]

Hope you're competition now.

[Host]

You see them as an enemy now.

[Cas]

Not really an enemy. I don't see it. Just kind of. You're not my people. Like, from a team perspective. Having said that, we've had, like, a lot of people leave to start their own companies, which we love.

[Mike]

Which we love. But I will say it had us change our focus a lot because most people think, okay, we should do all this bonding stuff and everything like that. And we took it very seriously how we hired them, the interview process, getting to know them, and making a big deal their first year. If you could make it with us a year, that was a big deal. So we actually didn't have a lot of people who left other than to start companies, which was Cass.

[Cas]

I mean, one of the cheat codes from the book is all about how to put the cult in culture, because it's still work. You're not going to love work, but if you can create an environment where people are laughing and they're recommending their friends and they're doing work they think is valuable, like, to them personally, you have a really positive experience at work and you have a company that's powered by that. And so Cass, who is an incredible manager and HR director, was able to create rituals and symbols and traditions at a company that you would see in kind of like a cult or religion, which I think kept people bonded to each other and not just through goofy things, but through philanthropy and giving back and going into the community. And every company event would have some sort of social good part. Making sandwiches, donating toys. I remember over the holiday cycle for survival, we've helped raise 400 million for cancer research.

[Host]

Wow.

[Cas]

And so that part of the culture of how do you do good together? Is a really big cheat code in the book.

[Mike]

It also helps too, because whatever you start with as a founder, the chances are you're not going to end up with whatever you thought you were going to do. You're going to pivot. And we had that happen, what, three or four times at Buddy Media, our last company. But if you've actually spent the time making sure the teams are working right and providing great leadership, which to us means radical transparency. We would share financials, we would share all the good, all the bad choice. Yeah. I mean, our investors hated it, but never leaked.

[Cas]

We treated the employees like they're the board.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Like, we owe you to tell you, like, what's going on. Just so you know how your work levels up to the company.

[Mike]

Yeah. So they can all be aligned. And.

[Cas]

And that's part of the focus that you talked about. Like, they knew what the number one area of focus was, which is really helpful because there's a conversation that happens at a lot of software companies and other companies. You know, the person building the product has a whole, you know, roadmap. Person selling it is like, oh, I need this for this customer. We're not gonna be able to get this customer. So we build it. The product seems like, okay, we have a full roadmap. What do you want me not to do? Right. Well, I need all that, but I need this as well. When you focus and you say, listen, number one is getting new customers on board. Number two is product. You then can, like, look at both of the team members. They listen, you both have valid points, but we're gonna build this because getting new customers on board is the number one focus for the business.

[Mike]

You can make decisions, so you go.

[Cas]

Back to your areas of focus to make decisions. And people don't feel like you're just choosing sides as a leader.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

You know, we've. We ran the companies as kind of, I think, benevolent dictators. Like, we listened, but it was, like, our decision. Right. A lot of companies these days are run as, like, democracies, crowdsourcing their.

[Host]

Their shit, which is hard with a board and everything.

[Cas]

Yeah. Just. And like, hey, let us know what you think.

[Mike]

Let me send out a survey. Like.

[Host]

Yeah, I hate filling out surveys.

[Cas]

Yeah. Where it's like, leaders lead, and you know, a leader when they're leading. And most people who aren't leaders want to know that someone has their hand on the steering wheel.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And let's also forget that because we shared all the information and because we were relentless with being transparent, when we did have to pivot, no one jumped ship. Right. Because a lot of people are gonna be like, oh, my God, I have no idea what we're doing now?

[Host]

Yeah, they'll freak out.

[Mike]

They'll freak out and they'll be like, screw this, let's all go. Right. One person leaves two, then it becomes a mass exodus. That didn't happen when we had to pivot. And I think that's because, again, we committed to making sure that we were focused. And then we shared that focus 100% in every conversation. Hey, remember, you're doing this because these are our top three goals. Hey, remember, like, it would be all teams, one on one, department meetings by the water cooler, you name it. Yes, it is harder as well, being remote. I hear this all the time, but I don't buy it. Like, you just as leaders, you gotta go where the hubs are and you gotta meet with the people.

[Host]

You guys went fully remote.

[Cas]

We didn't. We sold the company before COVID And if you remember, it's like 2019. No one did video calls. Yeah, like that whole zoom thing. Like, we used to use, like, Skype way back when, but it was not a thing. Like, you wouldn't hop on a work call and a T shirt from your house, like a video, and you wouldn't. Yeah, we're not believers in remote work. We think that if you're doing something that's important, being together, bouncing off each other, that electricity is important.

[Mike]

Energy.

[Host]

I'm big on that too.

[Cas]

And just getting to, like, especially the creative ideas. Like, you walk into an office, you're like, wow, I could feel.

[Host]

Yeah. I don't do any pods. Remote.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

All in person, which I love.

[Cas]

Like, and it's just, you know, we're in a world that everything's so easy. Instant gratification, like taking the time to put down the phones to, like, interface with your co workers or colleagues or new friends. Like, it's where it's at.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Well done. That's phenomenal culture. Because job hopping is a common trend these days with my generation.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Host]

Every two years.

[Mike]

That is, by the way.

[Host]

That's a good question. I think it's a lot of things, but I don't know.

[Cas]

The attention span dropping generation, though. Yeah, I don't. No, but I'm not that much older than you, but I don't. I think companies have taken people for granted and they haven't evolved with the digital society we're in. And so what does that mean?

[Mike]

I mean, that's very vague.

[Cas]

So hiring managers don't get back to people.

[Mike]

Well, that's. Ghosting is just a lot of ghosts.

[Cas]

Then people start at companies and there's no constant feedback. Number two, number three is the best thing you can do for employees is show them that you see a path for them, a path for growth. So the first thing I would ask any new employees, like, what are your goals? Not here in life. Do you want to start your own company? If so, like, I want to know that. Do you want to like, work for ge? Do you want to kind of travel the world?

[Mike]

We're talking rich, we're talking about small companies. We're talking about, like starting companies. Like, this isn't what you do if you wanted to go and work for a corporation.

[Cas]

Most companies ignore this.

[Mike]

I agree.

[Cas]

Most companies look at these young people as just cogs. We see it with their.

[Mike]

They also don't. They also don't. They don't believe that everybody counts. Right. So it's not that. Like Mike called us benevolent, benevolent dictators. I actually believed that everyone's opinion counted. It didn't mean that I actually was like, oh, I'm going to sway my vote, but I am going to listen to everyone. Despite age, where you've come from, what your background is, I think that's important. Again, it goes back to the energy. Because if everyone's aligned with the mission and you're in the same headspace and you know how you're rowing. Right. The pace, you know that you're in this boat together, good stuff happens.

[Host]

I agree. But no, I definitely agree with you too. It's interesting because my grandparents had the same job their whole life. Yeah, I mean, and that was common for that era.

[Mike]

But why? I mean, I go back to like, what you said. You think your generation jumps a lot. Is it that they're just not happy with the perks or they get bored?

[Host]

There is a lot of comparison in my generation. So they'll see their friends making more money on social media or whatever and they feel like they need a leveling up. Yeah, I think there's not a lot of patience.

[Mike]

Oh, so there's no earnings. So it's, it's immediate gratification. I don't like this all the time.

[Host]

Even myself, I find myself wanting instant gratification when I make a post.

[Mike]

Right.

[Host]

If I don't hit a certain amount of comments, I'm like, damn, like, right, what's going on? So I find myself in that. And a lot of kids think like that.

[Mike]

That's hard. That's a hard way.

[Cas]

I think that that, like what you just said is like part of your craft. Which is why I love kind of content these days. I went to journalism school, you would publish in the Chicago Tribune and you're like, there's no connection.

[Mike]

There's no feedback.

[Cas]

Right. And so I think that, like, paying attention to the metrics that matter is what propels you forward in any business. And you know, unfortunately, we're in a world that it used to be we didn't value, like, old people as a society. And now I don't think that a lot of companies value the young people because it's never been a better time to be young. And people. Every young person I talked to, I was Talking to a 10 year old the other night. We had dinner at a friend's house. I'm learning about apps, I'm learning about kind of culture. I'm learning about, like all of this stuff which is under the radar and how they communicate. And so that is what companies should be using in their.

[Mike]

And not be fearful of it too.

[Cas]

Yeah. And I think that, like, we're seeing the death of the old manager.

[Host]

Right.

[Cas]

And.

[Mike]

Or the career manager.

[Cas]

The career manager. And, you know, in a few years, all the managers will look like kind of us in some way. Right. And I think that that's great. Like, we are the first generation that had email in college, you know, so everyone younger than usual. Well, we, we didn't have email. We had email, but no one emailed us.

[Host]

Right.

[Mike]

Well, that's the difference. Right?

[Cas]

Yeah. Now, like, people email you. Like, why the hell are you emailing us?

[Mike]

I do, I do find it funny like that. I had to teach the boys especially, and our daughter. But the boys that, like, hey, when they're applying to internships, work is done over email, not text. And so please check your email.

[Host]

Yeah, I prefer tax.

[Mike]

Oh, I mean, I get it, but you can't do long. You know, you can't move a product forward in a text. Slack, you can do it in Slack. But Mike had this thing where he wanted to get the whole family on Slack. Yeah.

[Host]

How'd that go?

[Cas]

Not well.

[Mike]

We're not in Slack.

[Cas]

I just, I lose a lot of stuff.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Insurance cards. I'm like, just get it all in Slack. Let's all just work in Slack.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard getting the fam in one little chat.

[Mike]

You know, we have some fun ones, though.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. Ours is called Fab 8 because we had three dogs.

[Cas]

It's. Oh, wow, Chad. Like, Chad is where we live our life. Like I think all of us. And you know, we want people to text us when we have a relationship. Like, if it's an email It'll get buried. Well, for people who are like mad at me for not returning email, like, I have a thousand emails.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Mike]

For you, I. I get back to people.

[Cas]

I try to, but it's just very hard because if you are going to do great work.

[Mike]

Oh, here we go.

[Cas]

You just can't sit in front of your computer. Right. Like. Like answering emails is doing other people's work. And so I open my email when I.

[Mike]

Or it's pushing the work to the right person.

[Cas]

Listen, I'm not the most responsive to some people, including my wife.

[Host]

I guess I've seen this approach. I think Damon John talked about it. You can become a slave to your email. I was a slave checking it every 10 minutes.

[Cas]

So maybe I've gone too far to the other side. But we'll talk about it later.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

I check at least twice a day.

[Mike]

Just twice?

[Host]

Yeah, because sometimes it's important.

[Mike]

Wait, that's it?

[Host]

Is that not a lot?

[Mike]

No, it's not a lot.

[Host]

I feel like that's a good amount.

[Mike]

Interesting.

[Host]

Really? Twice a day?

[Mike]

Twice.

[Host]

How often do you check yours?

[Cas]

I would say five.

[Mike]

No way. You do it more than that.

[Host]

Wow.

[Mike]

Well, no, you might get the notifications. You don't care about them.

[Cas]

I mean, I'll. So I think we scanned, so we've inbound from like 100 companies. I probably do all of our stuff.

[Mike]

25.

[Cas]

So I'm scanning. Wow. But. And I'm also constantly saying, hey, if you really need me, it's an emergency, text me.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

Because I can't guarantee.

[Host]

Well, you guys have hundreds of companies. I don't have this.

[Mike]

So.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Cas]

But it's, you know, everyone's got to figure out how they can work in a way that like, lets them do their best work. Yeah. Right. Like, I like you, I have a very distracted mind.

[Mike]

You never wear an Apple watch.

[Cas]

Like, I get distracted easily.

[Host]

You have adhd?

[Cas]

Yes, among other things. And so for me, it's very hard. Like all these notifications like, disrupt my flow and I'm all about flow of like, how do I get into this, like, rhythm of like doing what I think is important work to me?

[Host]

Nope. I live on do not disturb.

[Mike]

Interesting.

[Host]

I think I'm on that mode all day.

[Cas]

And it's the best thing for your brain, probably. It lets you do your work.

[Host]

Yeah, Well, I just.

[Mike]

Do you want kids?

[Host]

I do.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

So that's why I asked that question. Partially just my own.

[Mike]

Well, I, I would have them. When you're young and do this and work hard. Because I think the best thing is that you get the time back when they're older. Bigger kids, bigger problems.

[Host]

Yeah. I was thinking 30.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

For 28 right now. Yeah.

[Mike]

Great.

[Host]

29.

[Mike]

30. Let grind now. When they're little, everybody can love them.

[Cas]

It doesn't grind when. When they're big.

[Mike]

Right after. After they need you, they get to that tricky. Like, 12 to 18 is just. You got to be around them.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cas]

You're gonna be a great dad.

[Host]

Thank you.

[Cas]

Know how to listen, you know, to communicate. Like, and you can be cool. You're gonna be present, and that's what it's about.

[Host]

I love it.

[Mike]

And you're still gonna mess up. That's what we also do.

[Cas]

And you're gonna feel like a loser, like, the worst parent ever, every day.

[Host]

Damn.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Host]

I know. It's challenging. Yeah. Well, guys, it's been awesome. Anything else you want to close off with?

[Mike]

No, I just appreciate you having us on. I appreciate you having the book there.

[Host]

Yeah. Check it out. We'll link it below.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, I just. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's been fun talking with you.

[Cas]

Yeah. And everyone reach out. I mean, we're.

[Mike]

We're here to help.

[Host]

Don't email him, though.

[Mike]

Don't email him.

[Cas]

Like. I mean, listen, email until, like, we respond. It may not be right away, but, you know, all of our infos at cast and mike.com or shoveling shit dot com. And the only reason we put this out was to help build your confidence as an entrepreneur from the mistakes we made. So here's our 50 cheat codes that we think will, like, help you avoid issues. You'll probably make all the same mistakes, even though we'll tell you, like, what to do, but hopefully you avoid some of the pitfalls. I love it.

[Host]

We'll check it out, guys. We'll put the. Is it on audible, too?

[Cas]

It will be.

[Host]

Okay.

[Cas]

Yeah. June 3rd, it comes out, and then we'll be in 100 different countries on audible. And obviously, if you like analog, that the Amazon.

[Host]

Love it. Yeah. I'm an audiobook guy, so I'll definitely give it a listen. Thanks, guys. Thank you.

[Cas]

Thank you. Appreciate it.