Why Independent Media Will Overtake Corporates by 2030 | Sage Steele DSH #1136

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode 1136: Why Independent Media Will Overtake Corporates by 2030 | Sage Steele

Release Date: January 23, 2025

In this compelling episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a candid and thought-provoking dialogue with renowned broadcaster Sage Steele. The conversation delves deep into the evolving landscape of media, contrasting the traditional corporate-driven models with the burgeoning independent media sector. Through personal anecdotes, insightful analyses, and robust discussions, Sean and Sage explore the factors poised to propel independent media to prominence by 2030.

---

1. Transition from Corporate to Independent Media

Sage Steele shares her personal journey transitioning from a 29-year tenure in corporate media to embracing the independent media realm. She highlights the stark differences in operational freedom and the ability to express personal opinions without the stringent constraints typical of corporate environments.

[04:05] Sage: "It's so, so weird. I'm still getting used to it because I think you're trained, honestly, as we should be as journalists, to focus on the story, focus on your job, which does not involve your opinion. And now all of a sudden, I'm saying what I think, and that's really weird."

Sean Kelly echoes Sage’s sentiment, emphasizing the liberation that comes with independent media, where content creators are no longer beholden to corporate agendas.

[04:50] Sean: "It just took a long time. Like you're a lifetime ahead of me. It's awesome. Like once you can not care. Honestly, like, anything is possible."

---

2. Challenges in Corporate Media

The duo delves into the systemic issues plaguing corporate media, particularly focusing on the lack of accountability among major players like Disney-owned ESPN and ABC. They discuss how corporate mandates, such as vaccine requirements, have strained relationships with employees and fueled distrust among audiences.

[03:58] Sage: "And that's because of what California was not doing to help. You can't prevent them fully, but you can be prepared."

Sean recounts his experience with the vaccine mandate at ESPN, expressing the emotional and professional turmoil it caused.

[19:25] Sean: "I was afraid of taking something that I didn't know enough about... but I knew I needed the job. I wanted the job, and I love my job, too. But I also needed it."

---

3. The Rise of Independent Media and Podcasts

Sean and Sage analyze the meteoric rise of podcasts and independent media ventures, citing examples like Megyn Kelly’s streaming success and Joe Rogan’s immense podcast viewership. They argue that podcasts offer a more authentic and flexible platform, free from the bureaucratic red tape that stifles innovation in corporate media.

[15:10] Sage: "Look what Megyn Kelly's done... her little streaming show blew MSNBC out of the water."

[15:24] Sage: "Pretty amazing. Remember when Rogan did Trump and it was a million an hour? It's nuts."

Sean predicts a paradigm shift where independent media not only rival but surpass traditional media in influence and audience engagement by 2030.

[15:29] Sage: "Memory when Rogan did Trump and it was a million an hour... It's nuts."

---

4. Social Media Harassment and Mental Health

The conversation shifts to the pervasive issue of online harassment. Both hosts candidly discuss their battles with hate on social platforms, acknowledging the psychological toll it takes. They explore the root causes, attributing much of the negativity to personal insecurities and envy.

[07:46] Sean: "I've had death threats... All because I have different opinions from them."

[05:11] Sean: "Mr. Beast gets hate. It's saving lives, you know, like it's inevitable."

Sage offers a perspective on handling hate, emphasizing resilience and the inevitability of criticism in the public eye.

[05:02] Sage: "People are gonna hate no matter what you do."

---

5. Diversity and Personal Identity

Diversity emerges as a significant theme, with Sage sharing her experiences as a biracial woman navigating societal expectations and prejudices. They discuss the complexities of identity, the importance of embracing all facets of one's heritage, and the societal struggles faced by multiracial individuals.

[09:03] Sage: "As a Biracial woman, I'm proud of all of me, not just half of me."

[09:14] Sage: "I'm not here without them. People don't like it. If I said I'm all black, then it's fine. But if I say I'm half white, because I am, people can't handle it."

---

6. The Role of Sports in Society

Sean reminisces about his childhood aspirations to work for ESPN, driven by his belief in sports as a unifying force transcending race, religion, and politics. They discuss the evolving role of sports in the contemporary media landscape, noting how figures like Stephen A. Smith have blurred the lines between sports commentary and political discourse.

[12:05] Sage: "Sports was a unifier. Sports brought people together and your race, your religion... nothing matters when it comes to a football Sunday."

[13:18] Sage: "Stephen A. is a unicorn... he's the hardest working person I've ever been around."

Sean underscores the timeless appeal of sports in fostering community and bridging divides, despite the increasing politicization of athletic platforms.

[12:22] Sean: "That's why sports is so important. Think about coming out of COVID... people needed that escape."

---

7. Family and Parenting

The hosts delve into personal narratives surrounding family dynamics and parenting roles. Sage reflects on her upbringing in a military household, emphasizing the balance of discipline and affection. They discuss the impact of parental divorce, the significance of being present for children’s milestones, and the evolving societal expectations of fathers and mothers.

[28:08] Sage: "I think there's something to that because... my father was leaving you out... and it's a tough."

[29:04] Sean: "It's priceless to have your kids involved in sports... it's about teamwork."

Sean shares heartfelt insights into the importance of presence and support in parenting, contrasting his own experiences with Sage’s.

[36:27] Sage: "They were physically beaten up growing up on a farm... he never got that closure because his parents ended up passing away."

---

8. Navigating Personal Challenges and Faith

Sage opens up about her struggles with vaccine mandates and the professional repercussions she faced, highlighting the difficult choices media professionals are compelled to make in corporate settings. Additionally, she touches upon the role of faith and spirituality in overcoming personal and professional hurdles.

[43:06] Sage: "I don't question much. It's been really healthy."

[43:13] Sage: "I love Jesus, but I cuss a little... I've let go of control and been grounded and prayed."

Sean supports Sage’s reflections, acknowledging the strength found in faith and personal belief systems amidst adversity.

[43:37] Sage: "It's a form of manifestation, right?"

---

9. Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode draws to a close, Sean and Sage reiterate their optimism for the future of independent media. They encourage aspiring content creators to embrace authenticity, resilience, and the unique opportunities that independent platforms offer. The hosts emphasize the critical role that independent media will play in shaping public discourse, fostering diverse voices, and challenging the hegemony of corporate media by 2030.

[50:58] Sean: "You're doing well. I'm learning a lot when you work just in corporate TV forever, and then it's like, wait, I have to do what?"

[51:13] Sage: "Check her out, guys. See you next time. Awesome."

---

Notable Quotes

• Sage Steele [04:05]: "I'm saying what I think, and that's really weird."

• Sean Kelly [05:11]: "Mr. Beast gets hate. It's saving lives, you know, like it's inevitable."

• Sage Steele [09:03]: "As a Biracial woman, I'm proud of all of me, not just half of me."

• Sage Steele [12:05]: "Sports was a unifier. Sports brought people together and your race, your religion... nothing matters when it comes to a football Sunday."

• Sage Steele [28:08]: "I think there's something to that because... my father was leaving you out... and it's a tough."

• Sage Steele [43:13]: "I love Jesus, but I cuss a little... I've let go of control and been grounded and prayed."

---

Key Takeaways

• Independent Media Growth: The shift towards independent media is accelerated by the increasing audience distrust in corporate media, technological advancements, and the desire for authentic, unfiltered content.

• Corporate Media Challenges: Issues such as lack of accountability, restrictive mandates, and political entanglements hinder corporate media's ability to adapt and retain both talent and audience.

• Podcasting and Personalization: Podcasts offer a personalized platform that connects deeply with audiences, fostering loyalty and engagement that traditional media struggles to match.

• Diversity and Representation: Embracing diverse identities enriches media narratives and resonates with a broader audience, challenging existing stereotypes and biases.

• Mental Health and Online Harassment: The omnipresence of hate and harassment on social media poses significant mental health challenges for public figures, necessitating resilience and support systems.

• Family Dynamics: Traditional family roles and the importance of presence and support in parenting remain pivotal in personal fulfillment and societal stability.

• Faith and Resilience: Personal faith and spirituality can provide strength and guidance in navigating professional and personal adversities.

---

Digital Social Hour continues to illuminate the transformative shifts in media and society through insightful conversations with influential figures. This episode with Sage Steele offers a nuanced exploration of the trajectory towards independent media supremacy, underscoring the interplay between personal experiences and broader industry trends.

Transcript

[A]

At Ritual, we know what goes into the holiday season. The potluck, planning, the gift giving, the spreadsheets. So this new year, take a moment for yourself with science backed support that puts you first. So whether you're focusing on supporting foundational health with a clean vegan multivitamin or supporting your gut health with symbiotic plus, do it with 30% off your first [e-mail] podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Met at 20. Married at 26. 27. Divorced at 47. So 27 years of my life.

[B]

Good run?

[A]

Oh, for sure. And didn't end the way I wanted, but like, I have the three best kids from it. I learned so much. Oh my gosh. I learned so much.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And you'll be great. I was trying to be funny, like. Yeah, divorced him. Good luck with that.

[B]

All right, guys. Got Sage Steel here today. We finally made it happen.

[A]

Finally. Thank you for not hating me.

[B]

No, you're good. You were so busy at Amfest, I didn't want to intrude.

[A]

Well, that was amazing. That was my first time. Had you been there before?

[B]

First time and same same experience. It was amazing.

[A]

Blown away. I was hoping to come on your show in Vegas though, because any excuse to get out there.

[B]

Vegas is a fun time.

[A]

So can we do it again out there?

[B]

Yeah, we'll do a part two in Vegas.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

We were talking about Florida. I think Vegas is a closet second to Florida.

[A]

Totally agree. I was going to look at places out there, especially because all the sports teams are there now. You know, it's. I love Vegas. I love the heat. I used to live in Arizona. I lived in Scottsdale seven or eight years ago. Fell in love with the desert and all that comes with it. So I'm the girl that's like, bring on 118. I'm fine with the hot, hot. I don't care. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Vegas gets really dry, though. That's the one thing. Your lips are chapped.

[A]

I know. And you constantly heavier water bottles. That's how Arizona was. Same thing. I like it, though. It's better than this.

[B]

Yeah. D.C. i mean, you know, weather wise, not the best. Hard to beat Cali, though.

[A]

But there's other reasons why I wouldn't go to Cali.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the fires, many. Holy crap. They handled that probably the worst of all time.

[A]

Heartbreaking. And still can't even show some accountability.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's what blows me away. But I shouldn't be surprised. We shouldn't be surprised.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't see any accountability from Karen or Newsom.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Just blaming.

[A]

Yeah. And when Newsom says, you know, you know, like, what happened? And we're trying to. We're trying to figure it out. We're trying to. We're asking local officials, and they're telling us, you're the governor. You're the boss.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's. I know people, I'm sure you do, too, have lost. Lost homes, gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I am devastated for this.

[B]

Yeah. He's just deflecting. And these people, a lot of them didn't have insurance. And that's partially his fault, too, because they were negotiating with the insurance companies and it fell through.

[A]

Exactly. No one's. They're just making the insurance companies out to be bad. I'm not saying I love insurance companies. However, we talked about this before. Think about just pch, just that area there, Malibu and Pacific Palisades. The tens of billions of dollars that those homes are worth for any insurance company to pull out of there, knowing what they could potentially make. Just those premiums every month or year. Insane. Probably the highest in the country.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That tells you how bad off that area was and how it was too much of a risk for them and they pulled. So from a business perspective, I get it and I understand it. And if you can't make money, like, at some point we can do our shows and our podcasts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. Give it a couple years, let it get going. And at some point, if you're not making money and you're in the red, that's a bad business decision for you to keep doing your show. They're no different. And I think people need to acknowledge the why. Why did they choose to pull out? And that's because of what California was not doing to help. You can't prevent them fully, but you can be prepared.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And look.

[B]

Absolutely. How has your transition been from corporate media to independent? Cause you were in corporate for 20 plus years, right?

[A]

Yeah, 29 years.

[B]

29 years, yeah. Wow.

[A]

It's so, so weird. I'm still getting used to it because I think you're trained, honestly, as we should be as journalists, to focus on the story, focus on your job, which does not involve your opinion. And now all of a sudden, I'm saying what I think, and that's really weird.

[B]

It feels weird, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you get more clicks and cancellations and all the things. But the best Part is that I don't care.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It just took a long time. Like you're a lifetime ahead of me. It's awesome. Like once you can not care. Honestly, like, anything is possible.

[B]

It took me the podcast to realize that too, because I used to care about what people thought of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Up until I started the show. So 25 years for me. But yeah, it's been a game changer. Now I can wake up. I don't care. I get hate every day.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you handle the hate?

[B]

It used to get to me, like when I was younger, but now it's like people are gonna hate no matter what you do. Mr. Beast gets hate. He's saving lives, you know, like it's inevitable.

[A]

It's often, I think also envy. Jealousy.

[B]

Yeah. Well, they say it's a projection of their insecurities. And when you look at the comments and you click on their profile, it's usually not like, I'm not trying to like generalize, but they're not doing high level things, you know, and then they.

[A]

See this somebody that they might compare themselves.

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

Age wise or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, who's this guy? Yeah.

[B]

Half the time it's a fake profile.

[A]

Is it? How do you know?

[B]

Because it's like a random name. No pictures. It's like they use an alternative account to leave the comment. So it's not their real account because they're ashamed of putting their real face out there.

[A]

Yeah. Grow a pair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All these people. I can't.

[B]

Do you get a lot of hate on social media?

[A]

I do.

[B]

You do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which platform?

[A]

It's funny. On Instagram, it's like they have to find you, you know, and they find me. But I. I'm really okay. It's taken a long time. I've had to train my mom to not read the comments.

[B]

Oh, poor mom.

[A]

Because I think that'd be the hard thing. And as I'm a mother and I think that if I saw people attacking my child. No matter how old your child is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you know the truth, that'd be very hard to take. It's almost easier to take yourself. But if someone comes after your kids, watch out, honestly. So I've trained her to not look and not go and don't respond. But she'll get engaged. Mom. I love that because some of the things people say, it's one thing to be mean, it's another thing to be threatening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a line, a really filthy. There's a lot of filth.

[B]

When you start bringing family involved. That's kind of my line. When you're doxing people, when you're threatening physical violence, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Death threats, I've had them.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

People wishing you would die or threatening to rape your daughters.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

Yeah. All because I have different opinions from them.

[B]

Was that mainly the vaccine opinion or was it a different one?

[A]

Some race stuff. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

As a Biracial woman. I'm proud of all of me, not just half of me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And if I. Because my dad's black, my mom's white, because I acknowledge my white mom, too. There's many in the black community sell out one drop rule. I'm like, what is that? Why do you care to that level? Isn't that diversity and you being biracial as well? I think that's the diverse part. Where our parents, especially mine, in 1970, coming off the civil rights era, they had to put up with some stuff. And it was a very different America then. But they didn't let their fears or society or even their families who didn't approve get in the way. So why wouldn't I celebrate their courage?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I'm not here without them. People don't like it. If I said I'm all black, then it's fine. But if I say I'm half white, because I am, people can't handle it.

[B]

That happened to the rapper Logic. Do you know him?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

He's half black, half white, and he got made fun of for saying he was half white, too.

[A]

You mean when he was a kid or recently?

[B]

No, he made a song about it. And like, I don't know.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah. But it's like, I'm grateful for being biracial because I got to experience both perspectives. You know, people were racist to me for being Asian, it's whatever. But I got to experience, like my Irish perspective and the Asian perspective.

[A]

I think it's huge to me, again, that defines diversity. That's what we. That's what America was supposed to be and is people just, you know, they like to pick and choose the diversity.

[B]

Yeah. And you're a fan of diversity. We were just talking out there about how the area you live in now, there's so many different languages, right?

[A]

Yeah. In South Florida. So many. And it's funny, my son, he's a junior in college right now, but a couple years ago, we're down there before I moved to Florida full time, and he was like, mom, why is everyone better looking down here? Like, it's true. It's what vitamin D does for you, you know? But from every country, there's always different languages being spoken on the streets of Miami and Fort Lauderdale. It's really. It's really cool. More so than you know. I spent the 17 years prior in Connecticut where ESPN was.

[B]

So not much diversity there, right?

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

Yeah. I got similar stuff in New Jersey, I'd say. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. The Northeast with the people that claim to be the most diverse.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of white people, a lot of Asians up there. Pretty much, yeah. You know, upper middle class town. So.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. It's good to get out of your. Wherever you grow up to get out and experience the actual world, I think so.

[A]

You have to.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of people are just stuck in their hometown.

[A]

It's easier, safer.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. But there's no growth in that.

[A]

There really isn't. And I get it. Maybe you end up there, but go explore some things. Go experience life. Go fall on your face. You're gonna fail. You're gonna doubt, you're gonna be fearful, probably, but you're gonna be okay. Give yourself two years and then you come back with a new perspective, if nothing else.

[B]

I was watching you on Tucker and I know you had big aspirations even at a super young age. Right. At 11 years old, you wanted to work for ESPN.

[A]

I knew when I was 11 that I wanted to be a sportscaster. Yeah.

[B]

That's so young.

[A]

It is young. I just knew, honestly, I could tell from that young age that sports was a unifier. Sports brought people together and your race, your religion, your socioeconomic status, your politics, nothing matters when it comes to a football Sunday.

[B]

You know, that's true.

[A]

Or Notre Dame and Ohio State playing in the national championship game. Whoever it is like you for those three hours that Notre Dame half 20,000 people high fiving like they like family and it doesn't matter what you look like. And I think that's beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why sports is so important. Think about coming out of COVID and what Donald Trump helped do, which was to bring college sports back and football in particular. People needed that. They felt like they really needed the escape and also just to come together in that way. And it was through football. Yeah. So to me, I noticed that at a young age and I wanted to be a part of it.

[B]

Yeah. Sports is beautiful. Now they are kind of interjecting politics a bit. You got guys like Stephen A. Smith talking politics almost every day now, which is interesting. Some of the athletes are speaking up too, so it's going to be interesting to see how that progresses. Right?

[A]

It is. And Stephen A. Is a unicorn. I mean, he's really probably the hardest working person I've ever been around as far as someone else on air. So smart. He is so smart and he's fearless with his words. He has the most confidence in himself. I saw him on Dave Rubin's podcast recently and he said that when the lights go on. He feels like there's no one better in the world in front of the camera than himself. And you're like, stephen A. But I get that mentality. That's what you have to be to be great. That's what you have to think whether you're an athlete or an executive. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Stephen A is interesting, though, because there's the ESPN rules, then there's Stephen A. Rules. Very different rules.

[B]

He's on another level.

[A]

He is. And he can go on Hannity or Cuomo or any of these shows, pbd, all of them. He doesn't even have to ask and say whatever he wants. And then he has his own show. He has his own show on YouTube, podcast, whatever. That is completely separate from ESPN. There's no tie. It's all his. And they actually promote it.

[B]

Really?

[A]

At the bottom, the lower third on the bottom of the screen on a first take is ESPN show. They promote the podcast, which they don't make a penny from. So he convinced them, like, he's brilliant. He's a brilliant businessman.

[B]

Yeah. I think he signed one of the highest deals of all time. Right?

[A]

Yeah. 1, 125.

[B]

Something crazy. Yeah. So he is arguably the goat of sports broadcasting. Right.

[A]

Different way. There's your journalists, there's your hosts, there's your anchors, your Sports center anchors, whatever it is. And then there's your pundits, like Steve, who, you know, are there, their analysts, and there to give their opinion. Completely different job.

[B]

I could see that. It is a new era, though. You got all these athletes like Shannon Sharpe starting up media empires now, and they're getting unreal numbers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy to see, like. Do you see podcasts overtaking traditional media in terms of viewership?

[A]

I do. Look what Megyn Kelly's done. You know, And I think that you say in the month of November or October. November. Whenever it was that her little streaming show blew MSNBC out of the water.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Pretty amazing.

[B]

I mean, some of these shows are getting a million downloads an episode. Yeah. It's nuts.

[A]

Remember when Rogan did Trump and it was a million an hour?

[B]

Yeah. Hit like 80 million. Right. Something crazy like that.

[A]

Can you imagine?

[B]

I mean, it's nuts. I don't know what television networks are pulling, but it can't be close to that.

[A]

Oh, no, for sure. I think also because there's a distrust of the media by the basic, normal Americans, consumers. Now they're looking elsewhere, and they should.

[B]

Yeah. When you were still there, was that distrust starting up? When did that start Happening, you think?

[A]

Yeah, I think it was. Everything started to get very, very political when. During the Obama administration, frankly. But once Trump won, it all was like, whoa.

[B]

And it was a hit the fan.

[A]

Kind of. Yeah. Kind of a free for all. Yeah. But I don't know. I. I don't recognize the network from what it was when I started in 2007. That makes me sad. But I do hope that they can turn the ship around. It's a choice. It actually is just a choice. It's not that hard because no one is better at producing that content than esp.

[B]

Well, they'll be forced if they keep losing viewers to do something. They won't just let it die.

[A]

You know, you're right. I do agree, but it's gonna have to come from the top. Do they have the right leadership to do that? And right now, I think that's questionable, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. NBA ratings all time low.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, these news stations are getting MSNBC struggling. Like, you got all these major news outlets struggling.

[A]

Aren't they doing layoffs and stuff there, too?

[B]

I mean, they're not profitable. So. Yeah, it's. It's not good.

[A]

It's not. Yeah, but they push people too far. That's what it is. They push people away.

[B]

Do you think it's because they were pushing certain agendas too hard?

[A]

Yeah, I think this trans issue is really ticked people off.

[B]

Yeah. You know, that was a big one.

[A]

That was huge. You. I don't know. I absolutely think that it was a choice. I used to fight with bruisers. I used to really not fight. I don't wanna say it like that, but I used to push back because I'm like, what are we doing? Why are we choosing this? We're supporting women. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing, supporting women? And then we can't have men's and women's spaces. It's just that simple. When the Riley Gaines thing started, I really was pushing for her, cheering for her, and just wanting to cover the story. I was like, no, no, no. So I don't know why. Why'd they choose this hill to die on? Because it pushed people away.

[B]

They wouldn't let you cover that story. That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. It took many, many months.

[B]

Wow. That was a major. Yeah, that was a major story from day one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was already out. I feel like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like you were breaking the story. I'd understand it if you were breaking it. And it's controversial, but it was already, like, out there.

[A]

It was out.

[B]

So why is it.

[A]

But again, if you are championing women in women's sports, this is the most basic thing. This is science.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's okay that we're different. You guys will always be faster, stronger than women. That's fine. We have great things that you don't like. Sorry, you can't have babies, no matter what you guys say. Like, there's certain things that we have that you don't. Yeah, but why compare? You know what I mean? But just accept us. Accept each other for the greatness that is. And stay in your lane. And I've never once thought, you know, that transgender people should not be in sports. No. Sports is so healing, like I was saying, and unifying. Absolutely. But just not at the expense of women and girls. This is not that hard. They wanted us to follow the science with COVID for all those years, and now this is so basic. That was an experimental vaccine, and we're not sure what to do. Never happened. A global pandemic. We've known the differences between men and women for how many years? Give me a break. This is so stupid.

[B]

Yeah. Your take on vaccine's what really drove the nail in the coffin, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Cause you were outspoken, and you were early on speaking about it.

[A]

Cause I was forced to get the shot.

[B]

Oh, they made you get it.

[A]

That's why I spoke up. But I went on. So Disney forced ESPN and abc because Disney owns us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Them, not us. We're not an us anymore, are we? I don't work there anymore. Disney owns ESPN and ABC and said, if you're not vaccinated by September 30, 2021, then you will be fired.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

So I waited the very last day to do it because I literally thought I might walk away from my job. I just was afraid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was afraid of taking something that I didn't know enough about. Like, just didn't fit, didn't feel right, didn't sit well. But I. At the end, I have three kids. I'm not married. It's all on me. And so I knew that I needed the job. I wanted the job, and I love my job, too. But I also needed it.

[B]

Makes complete sense. Yeah.

[A]

So that's why I took it. But it's been hard. I've had to forgive myself.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because I feel like I caved. So that's why I talked about it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. No, thanks for bringing that up. I didn't know Disney made all their employees do that. Disney's a huge company, 50, 60,000 people I think. Oh my gosh. I wonder what percentage of them actually got it.

[A]

That's interesting. I think probably a good chunk if you think about it. Back then when they put this mandate down and the timing. Three plus years ago, people still believed and still had hope that this could cure everything. And then you're not gonna get the symptoms as bad. Whatever people trusted more. Now they've been exposed.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of fear mongering. I almost got it.

[A]

Did you?

[B]

I mean the fear was all time high. You know, there was a lot of fear at that time. They were doing a great job.

[A]

Why did you get it?

[B]

Why didn't I?

[A]

Why? You said you.

[B]

I almost got it.

[A]

Almost did. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I didn't because my.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gut feeling.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

Gut feeling, man. Because there wasn't any data at the time like you said, there wasn't any studies and you really just had to trust your intuition. I feel like you did. And I didn't have a job that was telling me to get it or I wasn't in universe. Universities were forcing people to get it. So I was fortunate in that regard because I felt like that added additional pressure.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Yeah. And now there's all these lawsuits about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Former employees getting together.

[A]

Yeah. You know, think about what they did. Kicking people out of the military, kicking firefighters out of the lafd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they wouldn't take the shot. We could have used them. They could have used them.

[B]

Look at the direct impact of that.

[A]

Yes, yes, it's significant. And I'm just saddened at the levels to which people went to make sure you follow their agenda.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a lot of. I mean I got in trouble for saying what I said which was just. I think it's sick and scary for any company to force their employees to do this something to their body. And I'll stand by that forever. But at least I'm gonna be okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of other people won't without a job, so.

[B]

Well, look at history. You're gonna be proven right in the long run.

[A]

So there's a lot of us. There's a handful of us. I think that's just not what I ever wanted, ever. I just didn't want to take the shot. But you know, I will say that somebody asked recently if there was if I felt vindication from it and I'm like no, not really. I mean sometimes it is like huh, told ya. Like breaking news. And I'm like no, no, no, we've all reported on this for a long time, but we can't have that in our heart. To want to exact revenge on somebody or something, you know, that's not healthy. That takes a toll.

[B]

No, you can't live with that regret, you know, it'll eat at you. I saw it with my father. Oh my gosh.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Well, he never forgave. He was physically beaten up growing up on a farm. So he never forgave his parents his whole life.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And he had to live with that. And he would bring it up like every day.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

And it was just tough like so he never got that closure because his parents ended up passing away. So he had to live with that. Like I never made peace with that.

[A]

You know, that's hard.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of stress.

[A]

I don't think we realize the toll that it does take, stress wise. Yeah, I don't think we realize it like physically, obviously emotionally, but like. Yeah, absolutely, it's legit.

[B]

But this stuff made everyone question vaccines in general too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So opened the door for that conversation of like why are kids getting 100 vaccines these days?

[A]

You know, and my, my kids are 18, 20 and 22. So back then you just did it.

[B]

Yeah. You didn't question it at all. I got all mine. I never once thought like to question it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I was an athlete. So you had to get a bunch.

[A]

Most. I mean think of some of the ones polio, the ones that have been around forever. Fine. On average it takes six to nine years for the FDA to approve a vaccine. Six to nine years. So if you're giving me this polio vax or something else, it's proven, isn't it? That's different than this throwing it out there. And all of a sudden, here, you must take this or else you will die. Just the fear mongering was so it breaks my heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now back in the day there were four or five vaccines and now to your point, there's 70, 80, 90 that are part of kids vaccine shot schedules.

[B]

I'm like crazy. As soon as they're born, they're getting them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In their eyes they're getting injections.

[A]

We've allowed this.

[B]

I'm looking at home births right now, to be honest.

[A]

At what?

[B]

Home births?

[A]

Oh yeah, for sure.

[B]

I'm looking at wellness centers. I'm looking to not do it in a hospital.

[A]

Wait, do you have a baby coming?

[B]

No. I'm getting married this year though.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Yeah. So we wanna. How did I not know that it's not too public. I keep her very private.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like that one. One girl. Who was it? Brett Cooper. Someone keeps their significant other super private. I'm like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're. You're. And you're already thinking babies.

[B]

Yeah. Well, we've been dating for seven years, so.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that, like, your first girlfriend?

[B]

First one ever.

[A]

Wow. I married my first one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm divorced now.

[B]

Don't do me like that.

[A]

I'm kidding. You'll be great. It's 20 years.

[B]

Wow. High school together for 20. College, same.

[A]

Yeah. And where'd you go?

[B]

I went to Rutgers. She went to Seahol.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Jersey boy. Met at 20, married at 26. 27, divorced at 47. So 27 years of my life.

[B]

Good run?

[A]

Oh, for sure. And didn't end the way I wanted, but, like, I have the three best kids from it. I learned so much. Oh, my gosh. I learned so much.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And you'll be great. I was trying to be funny, like. Yeah. Divorced him. Good luck with that. But it's. I think it's. It's awesome that you're already thinking about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you just kind of know when you're with the right person. Right.

[B]

You know? Yeah. I want two to three kids.

[A]

Two to three. 2.5.

[B]

Yeah. We were joking about that yesterday.

[A]

You were?

[B]

Yeah. Two. Two kids and then one adopted. 2.5.

[A]

Okay. It would still be a third. It's not half of a human.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. We were just. We were messing around, but.

[A]

But you're.

[B]

We want two of our own, at least.

[A]

When. When's the wedding?

[B]

October.

[A]

Oh, this year. I look forward to it. I'll be there.

[B]

Yeah. I'll send you an invite.

[A]

I'm inviting myself. Where is it?

[B]

Jersey.

[A]

You're going home for it?

[B]

Yeah. You don't like Jersey?

[A]

It sounds like Jersey's underrated. There's some beautiful parts.

[B]

There are. It is a Garden State. But just living is different than.

[A]

No, I don't think I could live there, but. No, I just love that you're so young and totally. No, I know.

[B]

I'm changing that narrative. Cause a lot of people in my era just this hookup culture is, like, super popular, you know?

[A]

It is. So you've never done the apps or anything?

[B]

I met her on an app, but I wasn't, like, hooking up, like, every weekend, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Like, that's the problem. And so then imagine being single at my age. I got divorced at 47. And I'd been with, you know, I mean, 20 years, 27 years. So there were no dating apps when I was single last time. So I'm like, how do I do this? I have no idea. This is awful. I went on Raya for a minute, and then I was like, oh, gosh. I was afraid to, like, hurt somebody, you know, I'm like, oh, no, they're not gonna hurt me back. And so I quit the app. I couldn't do it. I never connected with anybody really. I mean, I think like a text, like two people.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But then I think they probably Googled me. They're like, I'm out.

[B]

To be fair, it must be tough dating someone like you as a guy, you know?

[A]

So that's an interesting take. And I think. I think there's something to that because.

[B]

You'Re so successful, you're in the public spotlight. So as a guy, they want to be the natural provider, you know?

[A]

Oh, dude, you're getting deep on me. And that is so true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I'm going to say it. Like, I'm very traditional. So it was hard to be the breadwinner. I didn't want to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was married, I didn't. I didn't want to be. I wanted to be home with the kids and have this dream, but I didn't want, like, I wanted to provide for my husband. I wanted to do those things that my mom did for my dad. And also she worked at times too, so it was a beautiful balance. I. My parents, I'm 52. The. They'll be married 54 years this year.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Like, I had the best example. Honestly, I think people underestimate the importance of some of those gender roles, and it isn't for everybody. But I do know for a fact, as a mother, having given birth three times, and there's something in us as nurturers that. I mean, when you have a child, grow in your body and give birth. Like, there's a forever bond there.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And it's very, very hard for most. Not all, but most women to not be there. Like, I wasn't there for her first step. My husband was great at the time and he made it so that I was.

[B]

Filmed it.

[A]

He filmed it. Yeah. And knew I was gonna really struggle with that. But most men. Yes. Have trouble with women who make more money than them. And he was a full time stay at home dad. So I made all the money.

[B]

Yeah. That's tough.

[A]

It is tough. And a lot of men wouldn't do that role. He did a great job for the years that he did. You know what I mean? Like, that was super helpful to my kids for. To me to know that my kids were with the best person possible. We didn't want nannies. That's why. You know? But the ego gets in the way, and I understand it.

[B]

Yeah. You think it's ego, or you think it's just, like, that natural desire to, like, want to be a provider, you.

[A]

Know, I think it's probably a little bit of both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe something else, too.

[B]

Maybe there's other factors and comparison too. Cause he probably sees his friends, you know, social media or whatever.

[A]

Well. And, I mean, frankly, he was supposed to go back to work after the youngest got into first grade, and he never did.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And never did. And still doesn't.

[B]

Damn. So, yeah, you treated him super well.

[A]

Is that what you call it? Where's the wine? Why is this just tea? Yeah, we're getting deeper, but, like. And I'm not trying to, but at the end of the day, most men, like, if you're. If you're out on a golf course and you get paired up with another twosome, you know, it's like, hey, how are you? Nice to meet you. What's your name? Yeah. What do you do?

[B]

Oh, that's the first question we ask.

[A]

So you guys do, Right? So when you have to answer that the way he did, that's different.

[B]

It's a little degrading. Yeah.

[A]

Or not. Like, he was proud of it, you know, but then it's like, well, then they found out what his wife did, and it was like, oh, so there's a couple different layers there. I just think, like, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get married again. I met somebody that's really incredible, beautiful, and I am so relieved and so grateful. And I said how important it is for me to be there for him, to support him as a man and as a breadwinner and as. Even though I don't even know, I might make more. I don't know. I don't care. But the point is, I love that role. Not all women do, but I do think there's something to it, and I'm excited to be able to do that, because I wasn't able to do that before. But it is truly, it comes down to communication. Yeah, it really does.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But at the end of the day, again, we underestimate the importance of those roles. And I'm sorry, Beta men, go away. Oh, I cannot. I worked with some of Them I'm trying to really, what I say, whether it's personally or professionally, like beta men. That's one of the things that's wrong with our society right now. Like grow a pair, be a man.

[B]

Yeah. Well, part of that's just the low testosterone levels, like guys are at all time lows right now.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

A lot of reasons. The food, the water, quality of like your surrounding. But basically our grandparents testosterone, like our grandfathers, it's like five times higher than guys right now. If you look at the studies that.

[A]

Just take some shots.

[B]

I like to be holistic personally. People can do whatever they want, but just measure your levels if you're watching this as a guy. Because that could be why you're a little beta, you know.

[A]

Can I use bad language?

[B]

Yeah, you can. And a lot of media programming too.

[A]

Yeah. No, I think 100%. In the social media. Yes.

[B]

In social media and television shows, they portray the husband as kind of an idiot on some of them.

[A]

Yes. And which was funny back in the day with. What was it? Love and Marriage.

[B]

I know that song.

[A]

Together.

[B]

I've heard that song.

[A]

Al Bundy. Yeah. What was that show? Married with Children.

[B]

Married with Children.

[A]

Was that it?

[B]

No, I've heard of that name.

[A]

So funny comedy, like, and he was just owl on his big belly and he's like, you know, yeah, and give me a beer. And. And you know, just stupid owl. And you know, of course, when you. He didn't put the laundry away, like it's funny. And then people got offended by that, you know, then me too. And then it's like, if you liked my jacket, sweater, which is pretty great, isn't it? It's one piece. It's amazing. But if you say that at work, like, oh my God, I feel uncomfortable and I feel like he's objectifying me and I feel harassed. Like, stop. That's what happens, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and so you guys have been put in a tough position by women where you can't even do a nice average compliment to somebody.

[B]

I know we're on edge.

[A]

So I think. Yes, and I understand why you are. But that also probably contributes. But no. My dad is a retired army colonel, West Point. Like we did room inspections every Saturday morning growing up, like he did at West Point. And he's also a gentle giant. Was the best father to all of us. I have two brothers, but also as a girl. But like, he's tough and he led, he guided, he made. And this is a word that I need all men to listen to of all ages. Make sure your partner feels safe. Please make her feel safe.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

And it's literally, and it's figuratively. And some little things. Like, if you're walking along the streets out here in dc, which side is the man on? Should the man be on closest to the road? Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, I learned that the hard way the first time. I didn't do that.

[A]

No way. With your girlfriend.

[B]

Yeah. But now I do it every time.

[A]

What'd she say?

[B]

She was like, what are you doing? I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I didn't know at the time. So.

[A]

Yeah. So now you make sure your son does that. Like, make me feel safe and protected if there's something that needs to be taken care of in the home. And like, okay, the plumber was supposed to show up and didn't show up. Okay. I'm fully capable of calling the plumber and saying, what the hell? But, like, I got you. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's so many women who are super successful, but sometimes just want to come home and not feel like I still have to be the man. Whether it's with the kids, with discipline and as moms. Don't let your kids walk all over you either. But I remember my mom being like, when your dad gets home. But in general, how do you make a woman feel safe? And a big part of that is providing. That doesn't mean she needs diamonds and furs and materialistic things either. But the safe word, because I can go crush it at work. I've done it for years. I just want to come home and feel like because I worked in a man's world. You did, like, the ultimate.

[B]

And you did it before dei. You did it the hard way.

[A]

Long before the stuff that I saw and experienced, whether it would be in the newsroom or in a locker room, oh, my God, the book's gonna be good today if I can get her to do it. But, like, just let. And not all women. I don't need a man. Really. Okay, fine. We need each other. We do need each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that that's not appreciated as much anymore. And I think to say that you're considered, you know, some Bible beating Christian right wing nut job. I'm like, okay, call me what you want, but I know when you look at the numbers and the breakdown of the family right now, it's devastating. And I think that that's one reason.

[B]

Why a lot of single parent households right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you got kids not respecting their parents. And they're just going haywire.

[A]

Yeah. You know, so what kind of parent are you gonna be?

[B]

I'm gonna be a good one because I witnessed divorce at a young age. My parents got divorced when I was in fourth grade. And I saw what that did to me. It shut me down completely. I went from being the class clown to like the shyest kid in school overnight.

[A]

Serious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I lived with that because I.

[B]

Didn'T have a father figure. My dad left and then he disappeared for like a year without seeing him at all. And then I would see him on weekends a little bit. But by then he was so damaged from his second divorce mentally and then the childhood abuse and stuff. So basically grew up without a father figure. And. And as a man, that's tough. So my confidence was so low. Sports is what kind of saved me because I was kind of athletic. And that helped me build some confidence and some work ethic.

[A]

See full circle. It's priceless to have your kids involved in sports, even if they're not a great athlete. Right. Like, if you have a young boy, young little girl, it's like mine were required to play a sport at all times. Required.

[B]

I'm gonna do that with mine too.

[A]

Yes. And it isn't even about the sport. It's about teamwork. It's not just about you and you making that shot, who passed the ball to you. You know what I mean? But sports teaches so many life lessons and creates friendships and relationships and losing and the whole. Not everybody gets a trophy. Hell yeah. Like, that's how it is. Go earn it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

I'm in a men's basketball league right now, and I look forward to it almost more than everything else in my life going on right now. Cause it's just like so fun, you know, figuring out how to win teammates, you know, the whole thing. The whole thing about sports is just so cool.

[A]

Yeah, it is. But I'm excited for you. I'm gonna. And I love. I respect that you keep everything pretty private, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting because it'll be interesting to see what you do with kids. With your kids at some point.

[B]

We're not posting them.

[A]

Yeah. And see how that evolves too. Because I wasn't going to for a long time. And then my, you know, my kids got older and then they were on social and. And I also really did want people to. I don't know about want, but I was okay with people saying the other side. I had to be so professional and tight laced and all Those things on TV every day and network tv.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's like. People think that you're. You have this perfect life and this perfect job and perfect everything. And then they see me and I have nice clothes and somebody else did my makeup. And I get to talk to Stephen Curry or Aaron Rodgers or whoever it is. And it is. It's super cool. And I go home and there's still things. And my kid got a bad grade and my dog shit on the living room rug. Like, there's real life things. My father. I've shared his struggle with cancer, two cancers over the last 14 years.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so I do believe there's. That. I don't know the line, and it's very personal, but when you allow people to take just a little peek inside if you're normal, and to allow them to humanize you and see. So I'm not the perfect portrayal at all that you might think from my job, what it was social media does, what it crushes young girls and boys with what you think is reality. But despite all the filters and, like, they think it's real with the filters and with all the perfection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, I wanted people to see that I'm struggling, too. And my kids aren't perfect either. I feel like you're more relatable that way. And then there was a part of me that wanted, like, this is who I really am. Like, I was always genuine in myself on tv. Good or bad. I always was pretty much myself. But, like, that's what matters, is those three kids.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so you can come at me with all these other things, but you see my children. You see. Yeah. So I always sometimes wonder, should I have kept it more private? Maybe. But I also. I also. I don't know, maybe it's caring too much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've gotten better about caring less about what people think, but to see that I'm a human being, too.

[B]

That's great advice. Thank you. Yeah, there's definitely that balance.

[A]

I don't know what it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You don't want to share too much because then it's weird that you got stalkers. But if you could share a little tidbit here and there.

[A]

Yeah, but what does your wife look like? Your fiance? She's Latina, so you're gonna have pretty babies. You gotta let us see.

[B]

Yeah, she's mixed too, actually. Yeah. We're gonna have some interesting babies.

[A]

So just. We gotta see. At some point, they're gonna be like, gorgeous, tall, curly hair.

[B]

That'd be cool.

[A]

Oh, that's happening.

[B]

Yeah, 100%.

[A]

I'm gonna make you post your kids so I can send a picture to me.

[B]

I love it. Yeah, I love. I remember on Tucker, you said you knew you wanted to have kids at a young age. You even put working at ESPN to the side. You wanted to have three kids first.

[A]

I did.

[B]

So you really loved the family unit.

[A]

I got that job offer from ESPN in 04 when I was about to have my second kid, and I just knew I wasn't ready to. Stuart Scott. I don't know if you remember.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Legend, the best. He was my dear friend. It's been 10 years now since he passed away, which I can't believe. He told me once. He's like, listen, you better be ready when you come here. You better be ready because you're eaten alive. Especially as a woman, it's different. This is in 04 or 3:04. Very different time. And so I knew that I couldn't be the best mom possible while working full time. That job, SportsCenter, national TV, every day, hour or two a day. It's a lot of pressure. I knew I couldn't be that person, that really good anchor and mom. So I waited. I turned it down, which was crazy. My whole childhood and teen years was espn. That was the goal. And then I got it, and I said, no.

[B]

Who turns down ESPN to no one.

[A]

And that's what my agent said to me. She's like, you have just blackballed yourself. ESPN does not need you. You need espn.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was scared, but I knew I couldn't do it because of how my parents had made beautiful decisions through the years. You know, family first. And so I took a chance, signed another contract, had a third kid, and then I was done.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

And then three years later, they called back and it was a better deal.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Better offer more money.

[B]

So it all worked out.

[A]

I'm like, huh? But even if it hadn't, I always would have been sad. But honestly, John, my faith is really strong. And it wasn't as much then. It was there, but I just. I don't question much.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

I don't. It's been really healthy.

[B]

Your faith is that strong?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I am the opposite of perfect. And I. Like. I have a sign in my office. It says, I love Jesus, but I cuss a little, you know? And I think that that's me. And I try to work on it, but the more I've let go of control and been grounded and prayed and felt close to God, the more crazy, amazing things happen.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like, crazy.

[B]

I could see that, though. It's a form of manifestation, right?

[A]

It is, but it's bigger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And everybody has their own beliefs. For me, it is a spiritual thing and beyond. So I don't know. I'm just overwhelmed that it took me so long to let go of control. Like, obviously, we have make decisions every day that you. You control your behavior, et cetera, but we try to force things. Sometimes it's like, okay, yeah, Well, I.

[B]

Think you were used to control growing up in a military household. Like, you said your father was checking your room every week. You were probably used to it.

[A]

Yeah, but it wasn't. But it was fun. It wasn't like tough, mean at all. At all. It was, respect. Your things we bought you. You know, you have a nice bed and a nice comfort. Make your bed, pick your clothes up. We don't have that much money. It was about teaching respect for your things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what my parents had sacrificed to give us without rubbing it in our faces. That's all. But it was otherwise, like, I mean, they're at every sporting event, and dinners were fun, and I literally had the best childhood with the best parents.

[B]

I love that. That's one memory I do have. My dad was never at my games. So when I have kids, I'm going to be there, you know, at the sporting events.

[A]

How? I can't imagine that.

[B]

I know, because every other kid's parents were both there. And, like, sometimes my mom would be there, but most of the times, not even her near the end of my soccer career. So, yeah, that definitely stuck with me, I think, you know, how could it not? Yeah. Little trauma, but you got to work through it. You can't live in the past.

[A]

But I say this to my daughter about relationships and my. Again, they're 18, 20, and 22. So, you know, all three in college and with relationships with boys and stuff like that, I'm like, listen, here's what I would advise. Here's my experience, and you do what you want, but here's my experience. And with a couple of things, I'm like, I'm sharing with you some things that I wish I had done differently. Do what you will with them, but please don't let this pain go to waste. Like, I'm hopeful that she does everything in life better than the way I did it so then she doesn't have to experience as much pain. But we all have to, to get through it. Like what you experienced with your dad I cannot imagine. It's deficit. It's life changing, life altering.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He could have gone in many different directions because of that.

[B]

But then I look at perspective, like, he had it way worse, like, his dad was beating him up. So it's like, you got to get better, like you said, with each generation.

[A]

Generational trauma. It's real. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just. I think that we hit the big picture, that we've got to focus on the family again.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

We have to. Back in the good old days of the Cosby show and stuff like that, like, it was just an innocent time, and divorce was kind of weird back then, and now it's not.

[B]

Now it's a coin flip.

[A]

Yeah. So I hope that my kids take some of my mistakes and just. That's not what every parent wants. You want your kid to be better than you, so let's learn from these mistakes. And yours is a tough one, but, like, you're gonna be a great dad because you haven't run away from that trauma. Right.

[B]

You can't. I used to, but now I face it.

[A]

Was it therapy or.

[B]

Therapy helped. I did a little psychedelics, a lot of just talking with the right people, getting dogs helped a lot with my anxiety. And just time. Time to reflect, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Well, you've done something right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've got, like. Especially for your age, you've got this, like, peace about you. It's crazy. And I've seen it from a distance, but not in person. And it's like you've just. You're like an old soul. Oh.

[B]

It means a lot.

[A]

Is that a fair statement?

[B]

I get that a lot. Yeah. Old soul. I could see that. I'm very spiritual, so I believe in all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Sage, it's been beautiful. I love the angle we took on this episode.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Sorry. I went all over the place, didn't I?

[B]

Yeah. We're in D.C. we didn't even talk politics, but, yeah, no politics.

[A]

Like, first of all, I didn't even know you were conservative for a while.

[B]

I actually didn't vote, but, yeah, I would label myself conservative.

[A]

You what?

[B]

I did not vote.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, I was too lazy because in Nevada, you need to mail it to a specific address, and I'm that lazy.

[A]

If you were my child, I would punch you.

[B]

You made your. Oh, wait, one of yours isn't old enough. Right. So you made two.

[A]

All three vote.

[B]

Oh, wait. 18, right?

[A]

Yes, 18.

[B]

I thought it was 21. Okay.

[A]

Are you.

[B]

That's how.

[A]

No, but that's un American. You know what people did to give you that, right?

[B]

I know. There's some divide within my family about.

[A]

Who to vote for.

[B]

My fiance is very liberal.

[A]

Great, Congratulations. Let her vote. Did she vote?

[B]

No.

[A]

What?

[B]

We kind of just had a stalemate where, like, we might be.

[A]

We'll cancel each other out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is total laziness, you slacker. Here's what I say to people, too. Like, fine, but don't you dare bitch about one single thing that this administration or that administration is not doing fair because you didn't go vote.

[B]

No, you're right. You're totally right. I shouldn't be complaining about it.

[A]

I'm not lecturing you. I'm so surprised.

[B]

I know people get shocked when I say that, but, yeah, maybe next election.

[A]

You know, I say yes. Are you registered?

[B]

I was registered. I got the ballot. I even filled it out. I had my boy Sam Brown on there. He was running for Nevada. I voted for Trump, and then I just didn't mail it. I was valid.

[A]

I love how honest you are about it. You're like, I just didn't do it. I'm like, what? My kids are in college, and I'm like, here's how you do absentee ballots. Da, da, da. Because they're in different states. We were registered in Connecticut, which, by the way, useless to vote as a Republican there.

[B]

I was in a swing state, so my vote actually mattered.

[A]

You keep going on.

[B]

I'm just making it worse.

[A]

Okay, so make sure, like, for your kids sake, all that, you know, you got lucky because of how it turned out.

[B]

Yeah. It was a landslide.

[A]

I'm still shocked.

[B]

I was shocked. I thought a couple swing states would go her way.

[A]

I did, too. Just because people. It's not even pro her. It's anti him. Being out on the campaign trail, though.

[B]

Yeah, you got to witness it.

[A]

I have no words for the experience. To be able to witness it and to be on the ground and talking to people in Nashville, North Carolina, where they were abandoned by the government and still are.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

It was such a blast. It was so cool. People love this country and actually don't care who's present. Just do the right thing.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway.

[B]

Yeah, it's been a blast. Where can people find your show and keep up with you?

[A]

I need some advice, because I'm still trying to make it grow, but you're doing well. I'm learning a lot when you work just in corporate TV forever, and then it's like, wait, I have to do what?

[B]

Ad reads.

[A]

What's an ad read? YouTube and then sage. Deal show, I guess, podcast show. So I need the lingo. So it's on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's just conversations with a whole bunch of different people. So are you in South Florida anytime soon?

[B]

Yeah, I'll be in Miami.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. For F1.

[A]

Heck, yeah. You are.

[B]

Yeah. May.

[A]

Yeah, that. Have you been to that one before?

[B]

Not Miami. I've been to Vegas.

[A]

Yeah, I was. Those are the two that I've been to.

[B]

I've heard great things.

[A]

Oh, it's cool. Be ready.

[B]

Yeah, I'm pumped. I'm gonna have an event. I'm gonna film out there. It'll be a fun time. Yeah.

[A]

Awesome. I'd love to say hi.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks for coming on.

[A]

Thank you for your patience to get me on here.

[B]

For sure. We'll link everything below. Check her out, guys. See you next time. Awesome.

[A]

So good.