Why Men Today Have 30% Less Testosterone | Dr. Stephen Sanders | DSH #1861

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour

Episode: Why Men Today Have 30% Less Testosterone | Dr. Stephen Sanders | DSH #1861
Date: March 15, 2026
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Dr. Stephen Sanders

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Overview

This episode of Digital Social Hour dives deep into the crisis of declining testosterone levels and overall men's health with Dr. Stephen Sanders, a physician specializing in men's health and wellness. Dr. Sanders shares his personal health journey, professional insights into falling testosterone levels, the rise of young men experiencing health issues once reserved for older demographics, and practical advice for prevention and optimization. The conversation touches on the interplay of medical, environmental, psychological, and social factors that are driving these trends and what men can do to take charge of their well-being.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Sanders’ Personal and Professional Journey

• Dr. Sanders candidly discusses his own health crisis in his late 30s: brain fog, low libido, poor sleep, and weight gain (over 60 pounds overweight) despite apparent external success.

  "I began to believe that my best days were behind me and not ahead of me. And dude, that scared the hell out of me." ([02:23] - Dr. Sanders)

• He describes his 18-month health transformation and motivation to empower men with the playbook he wished he'd had.

2. The Testosterone Crisis in Young Men

• Notable increase in men as young as 18–20 showing clinically low testosterone with no obvious cause.

  "I've got guys that are 18, 19, 20 coming in. They have low testosterone. There is really no clinical reason they should have low testosterone, but they do." ([00:51] - Dr. Sanders)

• Reports of rising ED (erectile dysfunction) among young men, driven by multi-factorial causes—not just cardiovascular.

3. Men’s Disengagement with Healthcare

• Men often avoid or dislike healthcare settings and are dismissed when reporting symptoms if their labs are "normal," despite feeling unwell.

  "They go in and they have this complaint, and then they're told they have normal labs and then go home. And that's just normal aging." ([00:34] - Dr. Sanders)

4. The Problem with "Normal" Health Ranges

• Ranges for testosterone are too broad; being on the low end is still high risk.

  "The data tells us that if you're in that lower quartile, your mortality is 88% higher as a man." ([05:02] - Dr. Sanders)
  "Do you want to be normal or do you want to be exceptional?" ([05:49] - Dr. Sanders)

5. Role of Lifestyle — The Pillars of Men’s Health

• Dr. Sanders emphasizes core fundamentals: sleep, nutrition, consistent exercise.
  • Sleep deprivation can lower testosterone by 15%.

  "We treat a lot of entrepreneurs and, you know, they like to brag like, I'm getting four hours of sleep. Well, that's fantastic. But what you're doing is you're losing 15% of your testosterone..." ([18:56] - Dr. Sanders)

• Advocates for starting healthy habits and getting baseline labs early.

6. Modern Environmental and Social Threats

• Environmental toxins (microplastics, chemicals), dietary factors, inactivity, and pornography as contributors to declining testosterone and fertility.

  "90% of prostate tumors now have microplastics in them." ([10:35] - Dr. Sanders)

• Fertility rates have dropped by 50%; fertility clinics are packed.

7. Dangers and Proper Use of Testosterone Replacement (TRT)

• TRT is a tool, not a cure-all; misuse and lack of monitoring are rampant, especially in online clinics.

  "25% of guys that go to an online clinic never get labs...that’s alarming." ([16:40] - Dr. Sanders)

  • Early use of TRT among young men can lead to permanent infertility.

  "If we already got a fertility crisis and you hop on TRT in your 20s...it's not a good..." ([17:51] - Dr. Sanders)

• Dr. Sanders recommends looking at symptoms plus comprehensive labs, not just age or a single test score.

8. Mental Health, Community, and the Men’s Loneliness Epidemic

• Men’s mental health is directly tied to biology, lifestyle, and, critically, community:

  "25% of those guys said, I have felt lonely pretty much every day, having anxiety. That’s not okay. So we are missing a lot of community and men's health, and it's vital to mental health." ([00:34] / [21:17] - Dr. Sanders)

• Loneliness is as dangerous as smoking 15 cigarettes a day; community has a physiological and psychological impact.

9. Optimized Living vs. Grind Culture

• Both agree that hustle culture and relentless entrepreneurship are detrimental to health and happiness.

  "The grind is overrated... we need to glorify like, hey, this guy is optimizing everything he can so he can be present for his business, his family, and his other relationships." ([25:40] - Dr. Sanders)

10. The “Three Spans” Concept

• Dr. Sanders introduces:
  • Lifespan
  • Healthspan
  • Sex span ("Think of it as performance, how you perform long time from an intimate standpoint." ([00:00]; [13:46] - Dr. Sanders))
• Sex span is a sensitive but vital health indicator for men.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the new baseline for young men:

  "Our testosterone levels are about 30% less than they were 30 or 40 years ago." ([10:10] - Dr. Sanders)

• On low standards:

  "Would you trust a broke financial advisor?" ([04:04] - Dr. Sanders)

• On early health investment:

  "If you make the right decisions today...they compound tremendously when you're 30, when you're 40, when you're 50, it's a game changer." ([08:42] - Dr. Sanders)

• On the loneliness epidemic:

  "In the 1990s, 3% of men didn't have a friend. Today it's 15%...in the 18 to 35 demographic, 25% said, I have felt lonely pretty much every day." ([21:17] - Dr. Sanders)

• On the importance of community:

  "We were designed for community...if you live in isolation...it's the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day." ([22:36] - Dr. Sanders)

• On impact and sharing the playbook:

  "If I could go back and tell my 20-year-old self or my 30-year-old self, 'Hey, these are the things that are coming. This is how it's going to change.' Dude, it would have been a game changer." ([03:38] - Dr. Sanders)

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Important Timestamps

• [00:51] – Dr. Sanders begins discussing the prevalence of low testosterone in young men.
• [02:22] – His personal health transformation story.
• [05:02] – Dangers of being in the lowest quartile of testosterone and issues with medical "norms."
• [09:15] – On the rise of ED and its multifactorial causes, including pornography and lifestyle.
• [10:31] – Declining fertility rates, the microplastics problem, and environmental factors.
• [13:46] – Explanation of "sex span" as a crucial indicator of men’s health.
• [16:03] – Cautious advocacy for TRT; warning against unsupervised use.
• [18:56] – The importance of sleep for testosterone and overall health.
• [21:17] – Men’s mental health, community, and how isolation increases death risk.
• [25:40] – Rethinking grind culture and the value of optimizing health and relationships over relentless work.

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Key Takeaways / Recommendations

• Get baseline labs early: Know what "good" looks like for you when you feel great.
• Sleep matters: Prioritize 7–8 hours of quality sleep.
• Exercise & diet first: These pillars move the needle more than expensive tech or supplements.
• Beware of easy fixes: Avoid jumping to TRT or supplements without real need and proper monitoring.
• Foster community: Make conscious efforts to create and maintain multiple social circles.
• Rethink the grind: Aim for sustainable life optimization, not endless hustle.
• Treat symptoms, not just numbers: Doctors should look beyond “normal” lab results and consider real-life experience.

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Where to Find Dr. Stephen Sanders

• Social: @DrStevenSanders (Instagram, TikTok)
• Website/Telehealth: wholmenshealth.com – Telehealth for men's health in all 50 states

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This episode offers a thorough, honest look at the men’s health crisis, empowering listeners with practical tools, a call for greater self-advocacy, and a challenge to shift the culture for the next generation.

Transcript

[A]

Sex span. Think of it as performance, how you perform long time from an intimate standpoint. They like to brag, like, I'm getting four hours of sleep. Fantastic. But what you're doing is you're losing 15% of your testosterone. 25% of those guys said, I have felt lonely pretty much every day, having anxiety. That's not okay. So we are missing a lot of community and men's health, and it's vital to mental health. The data tells us that men don't engage with health care. They don't like the health care system. And when they do, they get dismissed because they go in and they have this complaint, and then they're told they have normal labs and then go home. And that's just normal aging.

[B]

All right, guys, Dr. Steven Sanders here. Today, we're going to talk about men's health.

[A]

Let's do it, man.

[B]

She's a majority of my audience, so this one should hit deep, right?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

What are you seeing these days with young males?

[A]

Dude, it's. It's all over the place. I'll tell you. There's a couple of demographics or a couple of things we're seeing in Never Graphics. Number one, people are increasingly concerned about wellness and health. And I love that this newer generation, they don't want a pill for everything. They want to know a lifestyle. Like, what do I need to move the needle? I'll tell you, I'm seeing a lot of low testosterone. I've got guys that are 18, 19, 20 coming in. They have low testosterone. There is really no clinical reason they should have low testosterone, but they do. So we need to talk about the things that lead to that. And I'll tell you a lot of things. The other thing that we see is more ED, and it's ED in, like, that 20 to 25 to 30 demographic, which is alarming. And most times it's not from cardiovascular issues. It's just multifactorial, meaning that it's coming from several things. So it's crazy, man. But I absolutely love men's health. And so I got into this not really by accident, you know, I'm a physician by training, specializing men's health entrepreneur, Art, husband, father for. And in my late 30s, like, everything on paper really should have been good. Good wife, good kids, career was, you know, really flourishing. Disposable income. Everything looked good on paper. But, dude, I hit a wall. Like, literally in my late 30s to the point I couldn't function. Like brain fog, low libido, fatigue. I was operating at maybe 30 or 40% of what I was capable of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I began to believe that my best days were behind of me and not ahead of me. And dude, that scared the hell out of me, honestly.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of people say you're getting older.

[A]

It scared the hell out of me because I've taken care of enough chronically ill patients and I'm like, if this is what I have to look forward to, I don't want this. And fast forward, I was biking in Colorado, someone took a photo of me and I looked at that photo and I'm like, I don't recognize this person. Just lifeless face, 60 plus pounds overweight. And when I saw that photo, like, it literally changed my life.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so over the next 18 months, I went on this radical health transformation and transformed my health and my life. And dude, I've got my life back now and I love it. I literally feel like I'm 18. I wake up every morning, like, ready to attack the day to get it done. But I'm a physician. And so if I was struggling through that stuff and if I was having to fight these battles, there have to be millions of men out there who are doing the same thing. And I don't want that. I want every man to believe that their best days are in front of them. And if I, I didn't have the playbook, nobody gave me a playbook, nobody gave me a handbook. I didn't know the process. And so if I could go back and tell my 20 year old self or my 30 year old self, hey, these are the things that are coming. This is how it's going to change. Dude, it would have been a game changer.

[B]

Yeah. It is ironic that physicians and doctors, some of them don't appear healthy, most of them don't.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Well, they're not taught preventative health.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, med school is not designed to, to teach you how to be well. It's designed to teach you how to take care of disease. We do a fantastic job. The health system is a fantastic sick care system, but it doesn't teach you how to be healthy or how to be optimal.

[B]

100%. Me, personally, if I'm listening to a doctor, they got to look good.

[A]

Correct. Would you trust a broke financial advisor?

[B]

No.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's the same thing with health. People don't think that way. For some reason, I guess right when they go to the ER or whatever, they don't really know.

[A]

It's. It's crazy almost.

[B]

Yeah. But it's, it's like a prerequisite for me.

[A]

It should be, I think, because here's the deal. I was advising patients, I was telling patients what, what to do. But at heart, I was a hypocrite because I was not living that out. My nutrition sucked, my sleep sucked. It just, I wasn't living it out. And now that I have got everything in tune, dude, it's, it's life changing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to get, I want men in their 20s and 30s and 40s in every season of life to live optimized and, and live out purpose and be the best you can be.

[B]

For sure. When you were 60 pounds overweight, what were your levels looking like? Testosterone?

[A]

Oh, they were awful. They were like. I was a metabolic train wreck. My liver function tests were elevated, blood sugar was starting to creep up, and then my testosterone was in the low three hundreds. But the issue was I went to my doctor. Okay. So I go to my doctor and they say, hey, your testosterone level is like 315. Well, that's in range, so we're not going to do anything about it. You can just need to eat better. And so. But the range is say 275 to a thousand. So I'm already at the low end of the range. And the data tells us. This is the crazy thing, the data tells us that if you're in that lower quartile, your, your mortality is 88% higher as a man. So you're 88% more likely to die as a man. And so in, in, in traditional health care, we're not doing anything about that. Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's the issue, man, and it's time to change the narrative.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I'm not a fan of ranges.

[A]

No, I, well, what are they based on? Normal. What is normal? Overweight, stress.

[B]

That's why I don't want to be compared to the average American.

[A]

Do you want to be normal or do you want to be exceptional?

[B]

Exactly. I wish there was a blood test that didn't have that, honestly.

[A]

No, I agree, I agree. But it's just all traditional sick care system where they take a normal and they put it all in these ranges.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, me personally, I'm throwing my blood work into AI.

[A]

Yeah, I think a lot of people are. I think precision medicine is where we're headed and that's where we need to head, honestly.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's. I, I'd rather listen to that than a doc, unfortunately. I'd rather listen to an AI about my blood work than A traditional doctor.

[A]

Well, and I think the studies would say that, hey, AI, long term, when it's trained and you've got the right models is probably where we're headed with this. You know, I mean, doctors, my view is this. I'm here to provide some tools, provide patients with a toolbox. But you need to be the CEO of your health. You don't need to be depending on the doctor. Like you need to be the CEO

[B]

of your health for sure. So you fix your health. How long did that take?

[A]

It took about 18 months. 18 months. And it was, it was a battle, man. I mean like I was, I was not eating right, I was eating just wrappers, fast food, just stuff. Because I, it's not, I was doing bad things, but I was busy at work and working multiple shifts and so I had to totally change nutrition. My sleep was absolutely awful. Like I would sleep four or five hours and work and different things like that. And so I really had to fix the sleep. And so now sleep is non negotiable, seven to eight hours solid. And then training for me was non existent. Like I wasn't exercising, I wasn't training. And so I made a commitment to myself. You're going to train four times a week minimum. And it's going to be tough as hell to start with, but you're just going to show up. And it was just about showing up. And honestly, when you just show up and you do those small habits, the consistency starts firing in and that you get the compounding effect and it's a game changer.

[B]

Nice. So after that journey, you started kind of doing your own thing, right? Yeah.

[A]

And so I said, hey, if I was struggling and I don't have a playbook, then there is a huge need for this. And the data tells us that men don't engage with health care, they don't like the health care system. And when they do, they get dismissed because they go in and they have this complaint and then they're told they have normal labs and go home and that's just normal aging. And so I think that's why we see such underutilization, men not engaging with health care. And so what I set out to do was, hey, I want to be the doctor that I needed in my late 30s. Like I want to, I want to do that and I want to get the messaging out. Not in your late 30s. But hey, when you're 20, we need to start thinking about this. Like when you're 30, we need to start thinking about this because we know that everybody's going to age, everybody's going to die. We know that. But how you do that really matters.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy that in our 20s now we need to be thinking about this stuff.

[A]

It is. And I thought I was invincible in my 20s. And then you get to your 30s and 40s, and things start changing. You get metabolic shifts and life shifts and hormonal shifts, and it's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I'm 20. I just turned 29, but I can already tell I'm aging. Yeah. You know, but you get a choice

[A]

on how you do it. You know what I'm saying? You. You really do. And if you make the right decisions today, dude, they. They compound tremendously when you're 30, when you're 40, when you're 50, it's. It's a game changer.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to be as preventative as I can. I'm doing MRIs, I'm doing blood work. Yeah. Brain scans. I'm measuring my testosterone, my vitamin D, all that stuff.

[A]

And I think that's what you have to do is most guys, they don't have baseline labs. They don't know where they are when they feel good. So if you're 25 and you feel exceptional, get some baseline labs so you know what good labs look like when you feel good, because those will change.

[B]

Yeah. What do you see? What? You mentioned, Ed, at the beginning, what's. What's the issue there? Is that a testosterone thing?

[A]

Testosterone is one component in activity, obesity, nutrition, and then in the younger demographic, I think it's born. I think it's. You know, it's not necessarily one thing, but it's sort of several things. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of messages I get weekly on TikTok from younger TikTok. Yeah. And just saying, hey, I'm having Ed. What can I do about it? I mean, this is like weekly, almost.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And so if that's one demographic and I'm one physician, it's crazy, the numbers. And. And the thing is, like, with Ed, it's. It's sort of. Nobody wants to talk about it. Like, if you're 25 and you can't perform when you should be able to perform, it's embarrassing. Yeah, it is. There's a lot of shame surrounding that. And. And so it's a. It's a clearly an issue.

[B]

Yeah. Because people associate it with, like, an older dude.

[A]

They do.

[B]

They do, like, grandpa age.

[A]

And if you. And if you already have low testosterone, we know that, like, today our testosterone levels are about 30% less than they were say, 30 or 40 years ago. So if a 20 year old is already reduced by 30 to 40%, maybe it can be a game changer with ED, with other medical issues.

[B]

Yeah. There's a fertility crisis happening right now.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

I know people that go to fertility clinics and they say it's packed.

[A]

Yeah. And the fertility rates are down by like 50%. That should be alarming to everybody. And then you start looking at, I was reading a recent study from NYU and some of the prostate tumors, 90% of prostate tumors now have microplastics in them. So I think what we're seeing is the fertility crisis is not just one thing it's related to. It's environmental, it's nutrition, it's microplastic. It's all these chemicals. Like literally. Men are under a constant.

[B]

Yeah. We're under attack all day, every day. Lights, wi Fi.

[A]

And then what do you, so what do you do about it?

[B]

Yeah. You got a detox, right? You do, do you have a pretty strong detox process?

[A]

You know, the, the problem is the data. I, I'm so, I'm a physician, so I look at the data. Does it make sense? Does it not? I don't know. Yeah, I think there is certainly a key for that, but I think a lot of it is on the front end of saying, hey, we, what can I do today to move the needle? So, like, personally, at home, we went through our kitchen and like threw out all the plastic, like glass, glassware, and then looking other chemicals in the home, like laundry detergents, deodorants, different things like that stuff that you can do on a daily basis. We all have to live life, but it's how you live it. The environment does make a big impact.

[B]

Yeah. Air filters, right?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Water filter.

[A]

Yeah, correct. Absolutely. I think anything you can do to move the needle will certainly help.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, it's tough to live in a vacuum though, you know, I'm saying. So you're trying to, you're living life, but it's tough to live.

[B]

Agreed. Yeah. Brian Johnson is exactly.

[A]

I mean, I, I, I'm intrigued by the work he does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he is literally spending his life doing that, which is fine, but everybody can't do that. It just, it's not possible.

[B]

It wouldn't be fun.

[A]

No.

[B]

It wouldn't be sleep at the same time every single day.

[A]

Yeah. It was good for you. I mean, I'm not saying it's not, but I'm just at the end of the day, like it's very difficult when you're living life, when you're raising a family, when you're. When you're.

[B]

Yeah, you got.

[A]

Starting business like you're. It's tough, man.

[B]

You got four kids, you're probably traveling a lot. Yeah, yeah. It's probably impossible, honestly, with that lifestyle.

[A]

Right. But you do the things you can. Small habits become disciplines, and. And you can move the needle.

[B]

Yeah. Fertility crisis, man. But you're doing fine. So it's all good. Fours are gonna have these days. Well done.

[A]

It is. Thank you, man.

[B]

Yeah. Not a lot of people can get one right now.

[A]

And isn't that crazy?

[B]

I know so many people miscarriage after miscarriage.

[A]

And then you look at the amount, like, fertility treatment cost. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[B]

Yeah. And so, yeah, I think just one miscarriage is like five figures.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you're trying to have a kid through ivf and it's.

[A]

So. It's. It's just crazy, the cost associated with that. If we can move the needle on the front end and fix the issue, it could be a game changer.

[B]

Do you focus on males mainly?

[A]

Traditionally? All males.

[B]

All males.

[A]

And I do that because I can speak from experience and authenticity because I have literally lived this.

[B]

This.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not here today spouting something from a textbook like, literally, I have lived this. I can tell you what to do, what not to do, what to avoid, what not to avoid. So, man, I love it.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And I want to spend the rest of my days treating men and letting them thrive and giving them the tools to thrive. I mean, that's what I'm about.

[B]

We need it, man. You talk about the three spans, right? Lifespan, healthspan, and I haven't heard this one. Sex span. Yeah.

[A]

So sex span. Think of it as performance. How you perform long time from an intimate standpoint. And so here's the deal. And I learned this. Sex is, like, the greatest indicator of how you're doing is, like, from a full performance scale. Because if you're having ed, there's a lot of times vascular issues, cardiovascular issues, neurologic issues. Could be mental health, it could be hormonal. So it really is a huge diagnostic tool for how you're doing. And we're designed to be able to thrive. And so we look at sex band because if you can perform throughout the decades, you're traditionally going to do very well. We know that just from the data. So it's. It's a huge thing. And so that's one of the major things we look at, particularly as guys get 40 plus, is how do you, how do you perform? And we want to make sure we're moving the needle so that you. That trajectory stays really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's important. I mean, it's, it's just a big thing for guys. Yeah, it should be.

[B]

There's a lot of people not having sex these days. The younger generation.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's. Is, you know, is that multifactorial? Probably so. I mean, it's probably hormonal, some of it's social media, some of it's cultural, like stuff. Exactly. But it's, it's alarming that our fertility rates are down because that's impacting fertility rates and it impacts the health of a nation.

[B]

Right. I think economy too.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot going on. If it continues. It is very concerning though.

[A]

It will be a crisis down the road at some point.

[B]

Even Elon talks about this.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah. That's how you know it's bad.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

If he's tweeting about it once a week.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Because right now our. For 1.2 or something is what our birth rates are per female.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need one, you need 2.1.

[A]

To maintain.

[B]

Right, to maintain, I believe. Because not everyone has kids, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

2.1.

[A]

It's just, it, it's crazy that we're talking about this today though, like when medicine is becoming precision and we've. And we're so advanced in society, but we have fertility issues.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Just two generations ago, baby boomers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No issue at all. Right. I think they were averaging five, six kids.

[A]

And so that's why testosterone and men are, Is so important though, because I mean, literally, like we've got 30 year olds that had the testosterone of a 50 year old from 2. Just two decades ago. Yeah, that is a problem.

[B]

That's nuts. Did you use TRT to fix yours?

[A]

Initially? No. So initially I tried everything, sleep, nutrition training and all that. And I got to the point it was just the mo. The needle was not moving. I mean, I literally like had it checked every, almost every month and it was not moving. And so I did get on testosterone replacement therapy and been on about five years now. And here's the deal. It's. It's a phenomenal tool, but it's just a tool because if you are not monitoring it, Right. If you're not, if you're not keeping check of things, it can go south really quickly. There was. There was new data, because online testosterone replacement clinics, they're. They're popping.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're huge. Exactly. 25 of guys that go to an online clinic never get labs. They just. They literally hop on there, fill out an intake form, and get a prescription for testosterone.

[B]

That's dangerous.

[A]

That's alarming. Like, there's a lot of things that can happen. And so I'm a huge fan of TRT when used. Right. But you got to do the labs, you got to do the monitoring, and you have to know the risk and benefits of it.

[B]

Yeah. Because if you're not getting lots, you're just guessing.

[A]

You're. You're absolutely guessing, and you're putting your life at risk. You could have something going on with your prostate. You could have. You know, you. You have issues with red blood cells from time to time. There could be a ton of other things going on, and if you're not monitoring, you have no freaking clue of what's. You could be a ticking time bomb.

[B]

Yeah. That's scary. Yeah. I only supplement what I'm deficient in. Yeah.

[A]

Which I think makes sense, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Some people are taking, like, 50 supplements a day. No blood work.

[A]

And then the other thing is, we've got. We've got younger guys coming in, and they. They want testosterone to start with. And I'm just like, you will need it eventually, because we know physiologically that your testosterone is going to decline. But. But hold off as long as you can. Because the other thing is, if you're on trt, it reduces fertility. So if we already got a fertility crisis and you hop on TRT.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In your 20s, and you have. It expands infertility. It's just. It's not a good.

[B]

Right. Not a good. So the guy who started looks maxing. His name's Clavicular, and he's on TRT. I think he's 21.

[A]

That's alarming.

[B]

He's been on it since 18 or 19. He said he's not fertile anymore, of course. So he can't have kids.

[A]

Yeah. That's scary when there's so many other options out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. I just. I don't think it makes sense. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of trt. I think it's a phenomenal tool, but it's got to be used in the right parameters and the right. And the right man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in the right season.

[B]

Yeah. For sure. What range do you usually recommend it? Or is it a certain age thing?

[A]

Yeah. So I don't I don't necessarily look at age. I look at symptoms to start with. So what are guys coming in with? And if you come in with and you're telling me, hey, I have brain fog, fatigue, I'm losing muscle mass, sort of the standard symptoms. We're going to take those, and then I want to see your blood work. Like, and not. Just a lot of guys come in and say, I just need my total testosterone tested. Well, that just. That didn't really give you a whole lot of information. You need more in depth testing to see what the heck's going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we take symptoms and then look at the labs and then marry the two and figure out, hey, do you really need. TRT is this could sleep fix a lot of this. We treat a lot of entrepreneurs and, you know, they like to brag like, I'm getting four hours of sleep. Well, that's fantastic. But what you're doing is you're losing 15% of your testosterone because you're not sleeping seven to eight hours a night.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And so if you're losing 15% of your testosterone, like, one easy fix would be to say, hey, I'm going to make sleep a priority. Seven, eight hours nightly. It changes the game. I mean, health is your greatest asset. And so for this younger demographic, if you can realize that and dial in, it can be an absolute game changer. Because when you get your 30s and 40s in your peak earning and you're growing, businesses like, that can be a game changer if you're operating at 100% versus if you're operating at a capacity of 40%.

[B]

Yeah. I've realized how important sleep is lately because I started tracking mine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With oura ring and sleep mattress.

[A]

I love it. I think that's. That's a phenomenal. Those are phenomenal tools.

[B]

Phenomenal. I noticed when my H is low, I feel way off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like the next day.

[A]

And do you feel like when you're fully rested, like, your performance substantially?

[B]

Like, if I'm scoring in the 90s, I know I'm chilling that day, but if I get a low score, I'm gonna feel it.

[A]

And the thing with sleep is, like, it's literally free. It's not. You know, everybody comes in and I want a peptide or they want this or a pill or injection if you can get sleep. Right. That's a lot of the equation.

[B]

Yeah. Sleep, diet and exercise, it's.

[A]

Nobody wants to hear that. It's not sexy, but it works. Yeah. Normal things work. To move the needle to Change the trajectory.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of the healthiest things you could do are pretty cheap or free.

[A]

I think so too.

[B]

Which is. Some people think that's controversial. Yeah, we're living proof of it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, I know you and I have friends that spend hundreds of thousands on fancy tech and stuff, but I feel like that's like the last five, 10% of it.

[A]

I would agree, I would agree. And I think it's the simple common stuff that really change lives for men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I'm not opposed to, I, I think there's tons of tools in the toolbox. And if you want to do infrared sauna, red light therapy, all these other therapies that are out there in this wellness space, that's really cool. But if you really want to move the needle to start with, it's like what you said, it's sleep, it's training, exercise and nutrition. Those are the core pillars.

[B]

Yeah. Do you touch on any of the mental stuff as well?

[A]

Absolutely. Because the mind, body and the spirit are all interconnected. They don't exist in a vacuum. And so if we don't take care of some of the mental piece, it impacts everything else. I can't tell you. I mean, I've got guys coming all the time and credit they successful, but mentally they're just not in a tough place. They're dealing with depression, anxiety. And when you can fix that, when you fix the biology of that, like you get a warrior and then a warrior changes the world. And so we, we use a 10 pillar framework, basically looking at pretty much everything. Mental health, nutrition, community is big. And young guys, here's the, here's the other alarming thing. In the 1990s, 3% of men didn't have a friend. Today it's 15% of men have no friends whatsoever. Like no friends. And in the, in the sort of the 18 to 35 demographic, 25 of those guys said, I have felt lonely pretty much every day. 25%. I mean, so 25 are feeling lonely, having anxiety. That's not okay. So we are missing a lot of community and men's health. And it's vital to mental health.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This, they, they feed into each other.

[B]

That was me 100, you know, and

[A]

so, and the dad, the father tells us that if you don't have community, if you live in isolation, I think it's like you're 60%, you're chance of dying is almost 60. Like it's the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

[B]

I've seen that, I've seen It takes years off your life.

[A]

Yeah, it does. So we were designed for community. It's just, I think culturally it's become difficult because the role of guys have changed. The definition of masculinity has changed. There's been so many changes. Then you've got social media. We don't have these rites of passages for men anymore. Like, it's, it's crazy.

[B]

That's why I'm so big on community.

[A]

I think it's huge.

[B]

Yeah, I'm huge on it. Like, I make all these different group chats. I want to connect people, you know, I love that. Yeah. How are you incorporating community into your stuff?

[A]

So it's a big deal for me. And I think it's, I think it's simple. A lot of times it's just reps. Okay. And what I mean by reps is going to the same places at the same time, that's the easiest way to build community. So going to the gym at the same time, you start to see the same people. Yeah, it's like organic community. So I love things like that. The other thing, I think if you can gather around a common purpose, like I'm starting this year or next year, I'm going to do the Leadville 100 out in Colorado. And so it's finding like a training group that you have gotten this shared sort of tough goal. And if you can do that, you find sort of organic community as well. And then for me, I'm a faith based person and so I find that's a great one community in my church community too. And so I don't think you need just one community. I think you got to have sort of multiple areas. But if you do the reps, if you do the same things and go to the same places, you're going to build community. Find a. Find the common purpose. The scary thing is that the data tells us that most guys, they go to their spouse, the partner, whatever, that's. That's their sort of rock. And 75% that's, that's who they would go to. They don't have anybody else. But what happens when that relationship sours? That relationship changes. You get a divorce, you have a separation, then they have nobody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so. Dude, I agree. That's why community is so important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's vital.

[B]

Yeah. You hear so many stories about the divorce ruins the person mentally.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Identity crisis.

[A]

It sends them on the spiral.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I love what you said about multiple communities because I'm the same way. I got my gym community, my basketball community. Pokemon Go, we play every week. I love that. I got that community entrepreneur, community business. You don't want to stack all your eggs in one.

[A]

You don't. And I think I, I, I have, I'm an entrepreneur at heart and I love entrepreneurs. But I think the thing is they go from. A lot of these guys have had like eight to five jobs, nine to five jobs. And so they had lunch buddies, they had work buddies and all that. And then you go and you start a business from the ground up. And it's just suddenly you, like, you've lost your social connection, you've lost those frameworks and it's tough, man. And you're, and you're out there grinding and you're building this phenomenal business and you look up and you've lost all your social structure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it impacts your mental health, your physical health. We got to do better, man.

[B]

It's rough. That's why I don't like when people glorify entrepreneurship on social media because those first five years were so tough.

[A]

Yeah. Like the grind is overrated. Like it's, you know, you, There are, I think I've come to see there are seasons that you do have to grind it out. But we need to stop glorifying, grinding enough time. We need to glorify like, hey, this guy is optimizing everything he can so he can be present for his business, his family, his other relationships and kill it in life.

[B]

Yeah. If I had to go back and redo it, I would not have worked 18 hour days. Six, seven days a week.

[A]

Same man.

[B]

Yeah. It took a toll on me.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

Wasn't worth it because it's such a minuscule gain.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

It. Even you could argue it's a loss, a net loss.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because like you said, when you sleep four hours, you're not operating.

[A]

It just doesn't make sense. But that, but I think that goes back to like framing. Hey, what is your purpose? What am I, what am I called to do? Which lane am I called to run in, man?

[B]

Yeah. It's not sexy to work that long.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

When people tell me that, I don't get impressed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I've done it. Like it wasn't, wasn't really worth it.

[A]

No, I agree. And does it bring any more happiness? I don't think it does. It brings, I don't think it does.

[B]

Brings way less. Right. I lost all my friends. My physical health was terrible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You had to give up too much, man.

[A]

There is a, there is a sweet spot Now, I. I typically don't believe in work life balance. I think there are seasons of push and pull.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, but I agree, this. This grind culture, it just.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think it's over glorified in work life balance too, actually.

[A]

You do or don't.

[B]

I don't think I do. Yeah. I incorporate work with all my travel. Right. You know, because as entrepreneurs, stuff comes up. We can't predict everything.

[A]

And at the end of the day, I like what I do. Like, I like men's health. This does not feel like work to me. I love working with guys, helping them change the trajectory of this life. It didn't feel like work to me.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

I need to be there for my family, my kids, my wife. But I love what I do.

[B]

Exactly. When I plan a trip, I'll dedicate maybe one of the days to work. You know, if I'm flying somewhere else, if I'm going to New York, I'll film a couple episodes. Right. Nothing crazy.

[A]

I think that's what a good life is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's figuring out what a purpose and incorporating the work and health and.

[B]

Well, I see the impact and you could probably relate to this. When you get messages of like, people saying you change their lives, it's crazy, right? It feels insane.

[A]

It gives you fuel.

[B]

Yeah. Because we know the ripple effect. That too. They're gonna have kids, they're gonna tell their friends.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

One could lead to 10, 50 people. It could of change.

[A]

Yeah. That's the power of impact.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the power of social media.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

We see these numbers and I guess we get used to them. But when you picture a room of like five, ten, hundred people changes things, right?

[A]

It does.

[B]

Because some people complain they only get 100 views on a video.

[A]

It's a game changer, though.

[B]

Yeah. But you could touch a lot of freaking people.

[A]

You can fast. You can.

[B]

Yeah. It's a. It's a great thing to have. I can't wait to see you blow up, man.

[A]

We're trying.

[B]

Yeah. You got a good message. So I think it'll. It's all about authenticity, dude.

[A]

I've lived this like is again. This is not from a textbook. I have lived this. I just wish I had the playbook when I was your age.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was 20.

[B]

That's why it would have been a game now. Yeah. I feel like we get better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Each generation. Right. That's how I feel about kids in high school right now.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Like they got so much opportunity with AI and they do social media. Man, I wish I knew what I knew now back then.

[A]

No kidding?

[B]

Yeah, no kidding. Well dude, this was great. Where could people find you support you buy stuff?

[A]

Just go to at Dr. Steven Sanders. I'm on all the major socials but typically hang out on Instagram TikTok the most cool and then you can find this wholemen's health. Com we do telehealth in all 50 states.