Why Tech CEOs Are Walking Backwards (Science Explained) | Knees over Toes Guy DSH #960

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode #960: "Why Tech CEOs Are Walking Backwards (Science Explained)" with Ben Patrick, the Knees Over Toes Guy

Release Date: December 8, 2024

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Ben Patrick (Knees Over Toes Guy)

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Introduction

In Episode #960 of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly sits down with Ben Patrick, popularly known as the "Knees Over Toes Guy." Ben shares his transformative journey from a youth plagued with chronic knee pain to becoming a renowned fitness expert advocating for unconventional training methods. This episode delves deep into the science behind backward movement, the stagnation in fitness advancements, and the broader implications of a sedentary lifestyle fueled by modern technology.

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The Stagnation of Fitness Advancements

Chronic Health Decline: Ben begins by highlighting the concerning decline in overall health over the past six decades. He states, "The overall health is definitely gone down over these past 60 years" (01:20). This decline is attributed to a combination of factors, including reduced physical activity and increased reliance on technology.

Impact of Sedentary Lifestyles: Discussing the allure of modern technology, Ben remarks, "Entertainment technology these days is, like, really good... reasons not to be moving our bodies" (01:36). The shift towards a corporate lifestyle and increased screen time have significantly reduced daily physical activity, contributing to deteriorating health metrics.

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Ben Patrick’s Personal Journey and Philosophy

Early Struggles with Knee Pain: Ben shares his personal battle with chronic knee pain starting at age 12 due to intense basketball training. By 18, he underwent major knee surgery and struggled into his twenties without achieving milestones like dunking a basketball.

Discovery of Backward Movement: In his twenties, Ben stumbled upon backward walking combined with resistance training, which proved pivotal in alleviating his knee pain. He explains, "Every step you take, your knee is over your toes. And I've kept obsessing on that for really, when I was 18 is when I first found that" (05:14).

Knees Over Toes Training: Ben emphasizes the benefits of "knees over toes" movements, challenging longstanding fitness myths. He asserts, "If you learn how to train with your knees over your toes without working through pain, it's like a cheat code for jumping higher and protecting your knee" (06:03).

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Innovations in Training: Backward Movement and Equipment

Backward Treadmill Development: Addressing common questions, Ben introduces his backward treadmill, designed to facilitate backward walking with resistance. He explains, "After a decade of answering that question, yeah, I make a treadmill now that someone can have at home" (03:48).

Benefits of Backward Movement: Ben elaborates on the physiological advantages of backward movement:

• Different Muscle Stimulation: "It's stimulating your foot differently. It's stimulating your lower leg muscles differently" (04:21).
• Knee Health: "When you go backward, it is almost like a rehab for forward activities... less pain, more ability forward" (04:49).

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Overcoming Traditional Fitness Myths

Challenging "No Knees Over Toes": Ben criticizes traditional fitness teachings that discourage knees-over-toes movements without substantial evidence. He states, "It was just an incorrect assumption" (06:10) and highlights that historical practices, like those of Arnold Schwarzenegger, naturally incorporated such movements without explicit instruction.

Scientific Reevaluation: While acknowledging the past lack of long-term studies, Ben advocates for evidence-based approaches that incorporate knees-over-toes training, emphasizing its benefits for longevity and athletic performance.

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Training Methodology and Lifestyle Integration

Full-Body Workouts: Ben prefers full-body training sessions, typically averaging three workouts a week. He shares, "I start at the bottom, like, start down at the ankle, work my way up, and like, finish with a set of upper body exercises" (17:06). This approach contrasts with the common split routines and underscores his philosophy of holistic fitness.

Accessibility and Scalability: Emphasizing that effective training doesn't require expensive equipment, Ben promotes bodyweight exercises and offers affordable coaching services. He mentions, "You can train full body from the ground up" (18:35), making fitness accessible to a broader audience.

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Impact on Athletes and Rehabilitation

Training Professional Athletes: Ben has trained numerous professional athletes, helping them enhance performance and reduce injury rates. Discussing basketball specifically, he notes, "The nature of our sport is a ton of force on the knee... the ability in the knee is now just so much more than the demand on it" (15:58).

Injury Prevention and Recovery: Ben addresses common injuries like ankle sprains, explaining their long-term impact and the importance of strength training through flexibility for prevention. He advises, "Full range of motion strength training for the ankle" (21:06).

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Educational Outreach and Community Impact

Educating Parents: A significant focus of Ben's mission is educating parents to lead by example, thereby influencing their children’s fitness habits. He states, "My life's work now is all about taking these concepts and making it a smooth scale so that if you're the parent, what you're doing, your kids can naturally follow" (25:35).

Global Influence: Ben observes the global adoption of his methods, sharing anecdotes like, "I see a guy two days ago, walking backward... He saw it off my YouTube" (31:20), illustrating the widespread reach of his training philosophy.

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Mental Resilience and Social Perceptions

Overcoming Social Judgments: Ben discusses the mental benefits of exercising against societal norms, such as walking backward. He reflects, "You get some mental gains from doing something for yourself that you have the desire to do, even though the mainstream might look at you funny" (32:07).

Building Confidence: By pursuing unconventional training methods, individuals develop resilience against external judgments, fostering a stronger sense of self and commitment to personal health goals.

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Success Stories and Real-World Applications

Transformative Results: Listeners share impactful stories, including one where Sean Kelly's mother overcame torn meniscus issues without surgery through Ben's regimen. Ben responds, "That's awesome, dude... That means that the recovery process would be a little bit better" (38:28).

Family Fitness: Ben highlights the benefits of training multiple generations, describing how his 70-year-old mother became an active, sprinting grandma capable of engaging energetically with her grandchildren. He states, "She's a super grandma now... they're just running up because she's given me a break" (33:09).

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Philosophy on Success and Purpose

Prioritizing Helping Over Profit: Ben emphasizes that his primary goal is to help others improve their health rather than maximizing profit. He explains, "If I wanted to make money... I would have been selling a joint supplement" (11:00).

Purpose-Driven Life: Ben believes that having a clear purpose enhances life quality and longevity. He articulates, "You've put a lot of energy on... making a difference" (12:16), aligning with his mission to educate and empower individuals through fitness.

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Future Aspirations and Broader Impact

Aiming for Public Health Improvements: Ben aspires to see broad improvements in public health metrics, such as increased youth fitness levels. He envisions a future where "more youth be able to do a pull up than today" (30:14).

Educational Reform: Advocating for integrated fitness education, Ben suggests that schools incorporate scalable fitness programs that cater to all ages and abilities, fostering lifelong healthy habits.

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Conclusion

In this enlightening episode of Digital Social Hour, Ben Patrick challenges conventional fitness paradigms, advocating for the incorporation of backward movements and holistic training methodologies to enhance physical health and longevity. His dedication to educating parents and athletes alike underscores a commitment to transforming public health through accessible, evidence-based practices. Ben's journey from chronic pain to athletic prowess serves as an inspiring testament to the power of innovative training and purposeful living.

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Notable Quotes

• Ben Patrick: "The overall health is definitely gone down over these past 60 years." [00:22]
• Ben Patrick: "If you learn how to train with your knees over your toes without working through pain, it's like a cheat code for jumping higher and protecting your knee." [06:03]
• Ben Patrick: "She’s a super grandma now... they’re just running up because she’s given me a break." [33:09]
• Ben Patrick: "Most people are really good people and if they even do get into some reason you dislike them, there's probably reasons for that." [39:18]
• Ben Patrick: "It's like a continuum. I do a lot of strength training through my flexibility... it's like enough that the same thing isn't a problem now." [36:47]

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Resources Mentioned

• Ben Patrick's Coaching Services: atgonlinecoaching.com
• Social Media Platforms: Instagram, YouTube, Threads on X

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This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Sean Kelly and Ben Patrick, highlighting the key discussions on fitness innovation, personal transformation, and the broader societal implications of sedentary lifestyles.

Transcript

[A]

I'm only walking, like 6,000 a day right now, which is decent. But they say 10,000 is what you should be doing, Right?

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

And you're doing that backwards.

[B]

I encourage people to fit some backward into the routine in any way. Like my parents, they hold hands so one person can see where they're going, and the other walks backward. So I say like, at least 200 yards each way. Fantastic.

[A]

All right, guys, Ben Patrick here. Knees over toes guy. Thanks for coming, man. And you brought a little book here. What's. What's this book about?

[B]

Really appreciate being here. The book. You can take a look at this if you want. Yeah, it looks old. The book's from the 1960s physical fitness program. Yeah, JFK had this book done. He was actually having good results with American Fitness for adults. He had a good youth system going. So in 60 years, we've advanced in a lot of ways. Yeah, we haven't advanced in our fitness, but we could. So that's really where my energy pours into now, the knees and how to have a system that a whole family can do.

[A]

So you think we've been pretty stagnant in the fitness category the past six years.

[B]

I mean, the overall health is definitely gone down over these past 60 years.

[A]

Wow. Down the average health.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. The lifespan has dropped a little bit, right?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. The, like, the fitness of youth today is in a whole league lower than it was 60 years ago.

[A]

And do you think technology is a big part of that?

[B]

It's definitely very enticing. Like, entertainment technology these days is, like, really good, Right. Really entertaining reasons not to be moving our bodies.

[A]

Yeah, we're super sedentary these days. The work, corporate lifestyle. Average steps are probably down from six years ago. Tremendously, I'd assume. Yeah, I'm only walking, like 6,000 a day right now, which is decent. But they say 10,000 is what you should be doing, right?

[B]

Yeah, something like that.

[A]

And you're doing that backwards.

[B]

I don't think I'm doing 10,000 steps a day backward, but I will say definitely increases the total step count.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's, you know, added benefits to backward in addition to forward.

[A]

Right. And you have a backwards treadmill that you sell now, right?

[B]

Yeah. I encourage people to fit some backward into the routine in any way, whether it's like my parents, they hold hands so one person can see where they're going and the other walks backward. So I say, like, at least 200 yards each way. Fantastic.

[A]

Just 200 yards. That's not too far.

[B]

You could do more if you want.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That'd be pretty good. 200 yards backward. For kids, I encourage them to not just run forward, but run backward as well. Like with youth sports, I'd be doing the conditioning as much backward as forward.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. And then for adults, really, anyone could apply this. The kids could apply it, the grandparents could apply it, but definitely, once it gets into, like, the strength training department, adding some resistance to backward walking. Like backward walking with a sled. Fantastic exercise. And yeah. I make only after answering thousands of times, what do I do without a sled to get resistance? Well, you can find a hill. You can have a buddy in a car with the car in neutral, put your butt against the bumper. That was one of the ways I got off painkillers for my knees with my buddy taking turns steering the car. So there's resistance. The car's in neutral, but against the bumper and working hard backward. But yeah. So after a decade of answering that question, yeah, I make a treadmill now that someone can have at home relatively affordably and get resistance backward. A backward treadmill.

[A]

Nice. And what's the whole philosophy behind the backwards movement?

[B]

Yeah. So forward, super good. Think walking. Lots of correlation to longevity. Think athletes sprinting. I mean, there's few exercises better than sprinting in terms of the total benefit. When you go backward, it adds some rehab benefits. So if you. If you imagine like, walking forward, your heel hits the ground and then you step. Heel hits the ground, then you step. The moment you go to take a step backward, your toes first.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

So it's stimulating your foot differently. It's stimulating your lower leg muscles differently. And if you look from a side angle, when you go to take a step backward, your knee is then over your toe. So there's pressure on the muscles differently around the knee. So when you go backward, it is almost like a rehab for forward activities. So it's not that forward isn't amazing, but it's really cool how you can balance and do backward work and then have less pain, more ability forward.

[A]

Right. And doing that was a big part of your rehab. Right. I know you've had some pretty nasty injuries.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I got into this stuff. Chronic knee pain. By age 12. 12, I was the crazy work ethic basketball kid who, like, worked myself to chronic knee pain. By 12, like a badge of honor. Only by 18, major knee surgery. Reached my 20s, having never dunked.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

No bounce. But through that whole 12 to 18, the knee pain was there, so the muscles weren't forming. Right. Couldn't Jump well, was never taught about knees over toes training. In fact, went to trainers and was always told no knees over toes. So then in my 20s, stumbled on the walking backward with a sled adding resistance to it somehow. Every step you take, your knee is over your toes. And I've kept obsessing on that for really, when I was 18 is when I first found that. So I'm 33, so like 15 years I've been obsessing on knees over toes training. So yeah, if you learn how to train with your knees over your toes without working through pain, it's like a cheat code for jumping higher and protecting your knee rather than just completely avoiding that position.

[A]

Incredible, because I was taught that too. No knees over toes. And you start to wonder how much of the stuff we were taught growing up was incorrect.

[B]

Yeah, it was understandable. Found in the 1970s, when your knee is over your toes, there's more pressure. There wasn't long term studies showing it was bad, just that it's more pressure. So the conclusion was no knees over toes. That goes into the college textbooks. Exercise in the 70s was not like a university subject. It was guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger slinging weights using full range of motion. They were knees over toes. Knees over toes was a thing no one even had to mention. It just naturally was part of lifting weights. Until academia said no knees over toes without evidence, just the assumption, pressure on the knee when the knee is over the toes equals avoid it. It was just an incorrect assumption.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Yeah. But five decades of research, I've now been able to emerge teaching really basic stuff that should have been like, I shouldn't have had a job doing this.

[A]

Right. Did you have a lot of people doubting, hating?

[B]

At first, I'm sure throughout the process, I'm sure today there's still people. But the more I can teach it in a way that someone can understand it and see that it's safe. I mean, I've been training my mom for six years now. She's 70. She's a product of this. People all over the world. Joe Rogan in his 50s, back kicking the bag. So the idea is not to work through pain with your knees over your toes. The idea is to find levels that are enjoyable and then improve that ability.

[A]

Right. This stuff's probably super important with the elderly because a lot of them pass away from falls, right?

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting. They found that the better you can walk backward, the less chance you have of falling down the stairs. For elderly, it's like an effective screening process to not fall down the stairs is how well you can walk backwards.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that just trains the muscles to just be stronger, basically.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, if you think of falling down the stairs, just. Just put a video of that and then watch it on rewind. There's an effective rehab, not an end all, be all.

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

Some of these principles are very simple.

[A]

Crazy. So if someone tears their meniscus or has a major injury, do you think they could recover without surgery?

[B]

These days, only a doctor can answer that. That's where it would get unethical of me to speak medically. So I'm just a trainer now. I save photos that people send in thousands of medical success stories, but it was never from someone saying, I have XYZ medical condition. No, no. It's like, okay, here's the motion you can't do. Let's reverse that motion. Let's find a level you can do. Not evaluating the medical condition. Let's never work through pain. And tons of medical stuff has happened. And that's how I got into it. The left knee had major surgery. The right knee was then torn up. I feel like, worse than the left knee was. But by that point, I was like, I'd rather just be a wreck the rest of my life than have another surgery. And so I used myself as like, a guinea pig. So the left knee, super stiff from the surgery, the right knee, torn up but did not get surgery. And 10 years without a setback. You see all the crazy stuff I do.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That would be physically impossible.

[A]

Yes. You didn't get surgery on the right one?

[B]

No. So did it heal? I've never been back to a doctor to find out. But I'm Duncan. Like, a machine can put crazy stimulus into my knees with no negative repercussion.

[A]

Right. So, yeah, you're dunking barefoot. You're doing splits, weighted splits.

[B]

So something obviously must have happened, but I still can't. So, yeah, I'm. Someone can come to their own conclusions on it, but I'd rather sell less and just be 100% honest about what I can than try to oversell and be dishonest about it or pretend that I'm a medical expert.

[A]

Yeah, you base everything on how you feel. We were talking before. You don't take any tests, any blood tests or preventative tests.

[B]

Yeah. Now, don't let me be an influencer on that. That's just my personal. I try to really focus on the quality of my exercise, eating real foods, getting good sleep, having a purpose in life, having good relationships, all these Things are shown broadly to equate really well with staying healthy. So I just focus on that stuff. But don't let me evaluate if some. Do all the tests you want, all the preventive tests you want, take all the supplements you want. That's not my field. I don't. I haven't felt the need for that yet. But I'm also not going to say, oh, I'll never take a supplement. I'll never.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So you never took supplements before?

[B]

I tried supplements a lot. Part of my conclusion, it didn't work for me until I started making the movement. Good, good. So. So this. So I was taking tons of supplements from age 12 to 20.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

All kinds of stuff to try to fix my knees. None of it worked. Then found out that just how I exercised can give me like, results I didn't even think were possible for my knees, my whole body. So I just haven't found the need to go back to supplements yet.

[A]

That's interesting because a lot of people want that magic pill, that magic supplement, but if they just train differently, that maybe that could be their answer. Right.

[B]

That's a good point. I get anything in the business world, if you make money, people are going to call you a scammer or this or that. Trust me, if I wanted to make money, like if that was my primary goal for the last five years, I would have been selling a joint supplement. I would be so much richer than I am now. Even if I just made a basic, good, honest joint supplement, I would make so much more money than I do right now.

[A]

Oh, you would have crushed it. Especially after Rogan.

[B]

Yeah. You would have cried it. You want proof that. If you want proof that helping people is my primary thing, I think you can and should master the subject of money. I do strongly believe you'll have a better life if that is always though number two to you, actually helping people and improving things around you. That has to be the deal breaker. That has to be the driving force. But go ahead and be the number one master of money. Look at Elon Musk, richest man in the world. Do you honestly think money is number one for him? Making a difference.

[A]

Difference.

[B]

Right. But he's the richest man. So I think, hey, if he's the richest man, I'll make plenty of money keeping helping other people as my number one. And then, yeah, do master the subject of finances to support that.

[A]

Yeah. You mentioned purpose earlier. Yeah. When people have money as their number one, long term, it rarely works out. I've noticed.

[B]

I've met too Many people. Now, being a trainer, it's cool you get to meet so many famous people behind the scenes. Met so many billionaires, some of the most famous athletes in the world. And, yeah, the strongest correlation I see with whether people are happy or not is, like, the purpose behind their daily work.

[A]

100%. Keeps you up, like, wakes you up invigorated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, money won't do that.

[B]

Met crazy rich, crazy successful people who then tell me they're depressed and I'm like, my head's starting to spin because I'm like, wait a second. I thought I was going to be, like, magically happy forever if I got to your level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it definitely shaped things for me. Wow, that's cool.

[A]

I want to talk about some of the guys you trained. I saw you make a video with Brian Johnson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You trained him.

[B]

His son was one of the early people doing my workouts.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Before Brian was on social media, I went and trained the son. I didn't even know what he was doing. I didn't know his project or anything. And so, yeah, the son ended up training him, and then he realized kind of where the workouts were coming from and so on. And so we've stayed in touch. And he does, like, a lot of my. I mean, he does a lot of stuff, but he uses a lot of my movements and been fortunate enough to meet them. They were fantastic people. I love the son. So purposeful, helping his dad. Like, how cool is that?

[A]

Yeah. I think overall they're helping a lot of people just be aware of their health, which is great.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's super important. If someone's out there working, if there's real problems. Right. So if people are out there working on those problems, I think that's cool. I have so many friends who don't disagree on stuff. Like, I disagree with all kinds of stuff, but the idea that disagreeing would then be a reason to, like, hate on people and this and that, I think that's where things go wrong.

[A]

I see a lot of that in your industry, man. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. You disagree with someone, therefore you now have, like, hatred for that person. I think that's where we go wrong. Like, I think that's wronger than being wrong.

[A]

Wow. What a statement. Yeah. People do take it personally, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think because money's involved and they see people making money, they get jealous.

[B]

Yeah. And we don't grow up in schools. We don't learn, like, a real moral code these days on how to treat people. It's not like, part of that. Like, where do we put thousands of hours into the education? Like, I put more hours into geometric, you know, geometry equations that I've never used in my entire life than I ever learned in school about how to treat other people.

[A]

Yeah. They don't teach you that you get.

[B]

What you put your energy on. There's not energy on how to. How to treat people. How to treat people online. Like, that should have already been a class in school five years ago.

[A]

Yeah, they should teach that in first grade. These days, kids have iPads and Instagram and like, 8 years old.

[B]

Yeah. Crazy what you put your energy on. We don't put energy on that.

[A]

Yeah. You've also trained a ton of professional athletes. I saw you say on Chris Williams show that basketball players get the most wear and tear on their knees.

[B]

If you look at the nature of the sport, right? Like, if we're matched up one on one right now, and you have to fake me out, get around me and make a basket, you do so largely by putting a ton of force into your knees. Like, if you had to fake me that way, the better you can fake, that means, like, the more force is going into your knee. Like, a poor fake, Like, a weak fake would be a very low amount of pressure into the knee. If you really sold it, you'd be putting a ton of force into your knee. I'd react that way, you'd go that way. Now I recover to try to block the shot. What do you have to do? Jump higher. Ton of force on the knee. So it's like the nature of our sport is a ton of force on the knee. So it's kind of a perfect experiment for me because I couldn't just be sitting in a lab. Oh, I feel good. Feel good. I don't care how you feel. Let's see. You know, for me, it was like basketball was too much for my knee. Let's get to where basketball is a joke for me now. It's like, crazy. It's still, like, it blows my mind. I go play as hard as I can, dunking all this stuff, and it's like, where's the knee pain?

[A]

None.

[B]

No.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But the. The ability in the knee is now just so much more than the demand on it. So it's still relative. Like, I can also jump off high stuff and not get hurt. But don't make me keep going too high or I'm dead. It's all. It's just relative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no absolute protection. There's no absolute knee protection.

[A]

Well, that's cool that you could train your body to the point where you're not getting knee pain though, anymore, at least for basketball.

[B]

I strongly believe that someone could definitely get their ability to wear basketballs then.

[A]

That's impressive.

[B]

The knee, I'm sure. Yeah.

[A]

When you see these outdoor ballers, they have the worst knee pain.

[B]

Yeah. You play like I play on concrete.

[A]

Oh, you do?

[B]

And I love it because I'm, you know, my body's an experiment that should be easy for me to handle.

[A]

I prefer playing indoors just because I feel so sore after concrete.

[B]

Yeah. I used to feel that way, but now the concrete feels.

[A]

Feels like grass to you.

[B]

That's what.

[A]

Yeah, that's awesome, man.

[B]

Yeah, comparatively. That's cool. Maybe it's even slight. Maybe it's 20, 30%, but whatever the difference is, it's like enough that the same thing isn't a problem now.

[A]

So how often are you training and recovering? What's your process on a weekly basis look like?

[B]

I'd say I average, like, year round, year to year. Like, I average three workouts a week. So I enjoy exercising more than that. Between kids and running the business and so on, that's kind of like. I know if I get two to three, I like to train full body. So, like, I start at the bottom, like, start down at the ankle, work my way up, and like, finish with a set of upper body exercises. So I don't do much upper body, but I finish with the upper body. If I get a full body session in two to three times a week, I'm good.

[A]

That's not too bad. Yeah, Some people train every day.

[B]

Yeah. And I like to. Just. Because I like to exercise. So it kind of depends on the. The life factors and what the kids are doing in the schedule. And so, like, if my schedule's open, I just exercise.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, I exercise every day. If the, if it seems to fit the schedule.

[A]

And I like. Yeah, no, I like how you just bang it all out. Because a lot of people are like, oh, this, they do back, this, they do chest, they do legs.

[B]

I'm addicted to it. Full body, that's just me. It doesn't mean the other stuff doesn't work. I just really love that, like, starting at the bottom of my body and earning my way all the way up to finishing with the upper body.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I'd honestly prefer that than to go six days a week and train a different muscle every day.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be training you this week, so you'll get to do a live workout with me, and it'll be full body, and we won't need any equipment. I will teach you what kind of things I would add, but it's pretty cool that without any equipment, you can train full body from the ground up.

[A]

That's impressive because some people spend thousands on equipment or gym memberships, and you could just do it without that. You're saying, definitely. Nice.

[B]

I do. I do both. So I love the body weight training. I also, at my studio gym, have. Have nice equipment. Yeah, it's all. It's all tools, but, yeah, just your body is enough of a tool that you can get good results.

[A]

Nice. When you were playing basketball a lot, were you rolling your ankles often?

[B]

I had some nasty rolls. Yeah. Those can linger for a while. Those can be really frustrating. I feel like the ankle roll in basketball, a lot of sports, once it gets into the contact nature, they have injuries that are gonna happen to some degree. In basketball, it's when you land on someone else's foot.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, the ankle rolls to levels that are extreme. Like, we were out barefoot in grass. Like, the ankle can only roll so far.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But if you're now in a shoe with like, an inch and a half rubber on the heel, and you land on someone else's foot with another inch and a half rubber on the heel and your ankle rolls, like, these are extreme factors that you would not experience in nature on the ankle.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, it's. Those can be pretty extreme. Don't beat yourself up if it happens. Do get more ankle ability than the average person. So, yeah, I also trained the ankles to have a lot more ability than they had before, so knock on wood. Haven't had one in a long time.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

But if I did, it just means that the recovery process would be a little bit better. I'd be able to still come back stronger. Whereas, unfortunately, when someone rolls an ankle, the ankle ends up, on average, weakened and now much more likely to sprain again. So it can be tough to get out of that cycle.

[A]

Yeah. Steph Curry dealt with that his first year or two. Yeah, I've had some nasty ones. Yeah. Landing off rebounds. Oh, man, it's rough, right?

[B]

That's not preventable. Now, how bad is the sprain? How long does it take to recover? How much you come back? Those are things you can still influence.

[A]

Right. And that's important. That's not talked about enough, the recovery. Right. With athletes.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you have the sprain, Statistically, that thing's not coming back to what it was before ever, statistically.

[A]

Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah, like statistically that ankle is now not going to come back quite to what it was before. Obviously if you're 12 when it happens or if you're 42 when it happens, there's gonna be a big difference in what it comes back to. So yeah, I believe strongly in full range of motion strength training for the ankle.

[A]

Wow. I didn't know that because I've had a lot of sprains, so I wonder.

[B]

If you've had a lot. You're part of that stat, I'm sorry to tell you.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't noticed like a significant decrease, but maybe over time, just gradually.

[B]

How old are you?

[A]

27.

[B]

Yeah, 27. And it doesn't mean it's significant, it just means like that's, that's the stat is like with each one it's more likely to happen again. So that obviously indicates if it's more likely than it was before, something's not fully back to what it was.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's all.

[A]

Well, with your training now, you're back to the best you've ever been. So. Yeah, like you said, you're more athletic than you were in your 20s right now.

[B]

I mean it's, I mean I was kind of a, a joke, so it's not a fair comparison. But yeah, I reached my 20s having never dunked a basketball. And now it's like you're flying. If I get open at all in a game, like I'm throwing down two hands, which damn, at six, one with short arms is like, that's pretty good.

[A]

No, that is good.

[B]

Like for my 30s, I'm now like a good athlete. It just happened slowly though, from being a terrible athlete and then gradually be being like, hey, I'm not as like unathletic as I was to now where it's like, dang, this is cool. Like I might be one of the freakiest 40 year old athletes in the world.

[A]

You might have to enter the dunk contest.

[B]

It won't get to that level. But at 40, based on what we're seeing with other people doing this, like it's like that at 40 I'll be in game dunking, which is, doesn't. That's never existed for someone who reached their 20s not being able to dunk whatsoever. Yeah, that's never been a thing.

[A]

No, that's nuts. Cause they tell you in your 40s to stop playing full court and you're out here dunking on kids.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we've got guys 46 and 47 dunking. Who couldn't dunk in their 30s?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

They could dunk in their 20s, lost it in their 30s, and now they're late 40s dunking.

[A]

That's impressive, man.

[B]

So I'm like, boy, when I get to my 40s, like, I'll be a freak athlete in my 40s.

[A]

Yeah. Because most NBA guys peak in their late 20s, I'd say so.

[B]

Yeah. And that's understandable for NBA guys because you're putting so much, so much total trauma in there. LeBron's a fantastic example, though. Like, it can be done. Like you can maintain much longer than it was thought.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And more importantly, I get ex pros reaching out. They just want to be able to play with their kids. They have small kids and they can't, they can't run around and play with them. Like, they'd have to like warm up for 20 minutes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Like, otherwise it's kind of a hobble. They can't get down into deep positions. They can't live life the way they want. They're on painkillers just to get through the day to day.

[A]

Damn. It's that bad with these guys. I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah, it's probably worse than people realize for former athletes. I mean, they've just used their body to such an extent. See, I'm much more passionate about helping someone have a good quality of life. I don't care how much money they're making, plenty of money. Helping a player get better, that's really cool. Helping someone not be on painkillers, helping someone be able to play with their kids. Mm, infinitely cooler.

[A]

Love it. So that's your purpose right there.

[B]

That's definitely. Yeah, I found my purpose definitely is for people to know these tools and at least be able to better take care of their bodies. And now with kids, as I was showing you with this book, just the idea that JFK in the 1960s was making results not just for adults, but also for kids. So there's this giant disconnect between going to the gym and kids going to the playground. When you have kids, you're going to take them to the playground and you're going to see that they're doing cardio, strength, mobility, everything. But yet youth fitness stats are the worst in 60 years. So there's some disconnect and then people go to the gym. So that's. Yeah. My life's work now is all about taking these concepts and making it a smooth scale so that if you're the parent, what you're doing, your kids can naturally follow and then they'll know it for life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rather than just. Yeah. Most of my work to this point has been fixing up people who are already damaged.

[A]

I love it. RFK's new slogan is Make America healthy Again. Did you see that?

[B]

Yeah. I'm stoked to see that someone's trying. JFK just had sheer energy on it in the 1960s, and it worked. So I think that anyone who truly pours in the energy in some elite position will get results.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm stoked, too. For me, it's more about educating on social media one parent at a time, who then figures out whether it's one piece of my routine or the whole piece of my routine that they now can have their family doing it. Not just their parents doing it, their kids doing it. So that's what we're seeing. We're seeing like three generations now all being able to work out together.

[A]

Nice. I love that. That's how it should be, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We should get to four, if possible. Four generations. That'd be awesome.

[B]

Yeah. I think.

[A]

Great grandmother on the treadmill.

[B]

I think that could happen. But it has to be where each quality is so scalable that everyone can, like, join and learn and do it. Not where it takes some whole new effort for grandma and a whole new effort for the kid. Just a smoothly scalable system.

[A]

Right. Yeah. It's exciting to see even politicians talk about it. I've never seen that in my lifetime. Talk about health. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's needed, though, because these obesity rates and disease rates are crazy right now.

[B]

Yeah. And now imagine if as part of your upbringing as a kid, best case, the school system. But that's why for me, it's like, hey, if RFK integrates some fitness stuff, I do. Awesome. That's your one in a million shot. What I can control is actually making videos on social media week in, week out, educating parents who then start leading by example, and then the kids follow. JFK's got a quote right in here. He says, we. We must live our lives in such a way that our children and their children after them will form a natural and lasting commitment to the vigorous life. That's exactly what we're seeing. That's exactly what I'm working on. Stuff that we do that now my parents are winning with, but that my kids are already falling. And like, they don't even. I'm not telling them to exercise. They naturally want to follow it. That's the stuff I'm Looking for nice.

[A]

I love that. Yeah. I think gym class needs a reform. It was such a joke when I went.

[B]

Yeah, lots of good can be done there.

[A]

Yeah. I mean they just throw you in a room and say have fun for 30 minutes.

[B]

Yeah. And even what they're doing in school, gym class, whatever. I don't even think that's the problem. I think it's more like processed food is now so delicious, affordable, accessible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So like the ability to get calories is now easier and our day to day burn outside of school is now so much less because video games are so interesting and good and so among other things, social media and like it's all really interesting addicting stuff. So the day to day life for a kid, you have easier access to non nutritious or less nutritious calories and now less daily expenditure.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I really think it's still saying it's the school's problem. I don't think that's gonna get the job done. That might help a little bit. Having the parent who leads by example, that's where it's at. That's how you can right the ship for your family.

[A]

So that's the major thing to focus on.

[B]

That's what I'm working on.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I don't have to. And I get messages now like every day of gym teachers out there using this stuff. However, that's all a bonus. What I for sure can control that we're seeing is my game is educating the parent that the parent knows how to take care of their exercise, but that the parent knows how to do this in a way that the kids will grow up also learning it. Like this is a skill, like knowing how to exercise. A very valuable skill for life.

[A]

Right. Yeah. The parents education is so important because they want the best for their kids. But I look at what I ate growing up and it was terrible. But my mom had no idea that was bad for me at the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or else she wouldn't have done it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's probably a ton of parents in that same exact spot. Right? For sure.

[B]

Yeah. And it's an interesting time because while we do have all this addicting stuff now because of social media, you can also become a superhuman that you couldn't, like you couldn't get all this data a few decades ago.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Only because of social media now. Like think in your world how much data you can get. Think how hard that would have been able to get 30 years ago.

[A]

You would have had to manually look it up or go to the library.

[B]

Look what you can get now for.

[A]

Free off YouTube super fast.

[B]

Find different people, then do their like. Seems like a common theme is people will study. You can use YouTube or free sources. That alone may work, but then you also know really what's working for you. And then if you want, you can, like dig deeper into certain areas that it's like already working for you. So yeah, even when I see broad stats and it's like, oh, gosh, we're less healthy than ever, I remind myself there's a smaller subset of us becoming superhumans compared to previous generations because we can get so much data.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But if you go with the flow. Yeah. Stats are worse than ever overall, right? Yeah. If you just go with the flow of what mainstream media tells you to do and pull up at the drive through and get like, if you just go with the flow of what's easiest, then you'll have more health problems than ever. But if you don't go with the flow. Yeah. You can become a superhero.

[A]

Yeah. Do you see the overall trend reversing anytime soon or do you think it'll take some time?

[B]

Hard to say. I can definitely control educating one parent at a time and being part of improvement. But also for me, if you think about value, like, let's see, let's say you like really changed somebody's life, like forever. Their life is now like different, better because of the work you did. Like, that's good enough for me. Keep, keep repping that as part of an overall effort with a lot of people trying to improve broad stats. So could broad stats improve? Definitely my goal. Like 10 years from now, will more youth be able to do a pull up than today? I'm damn shooting for that.

[A]

I couldn't do a pull up in high school. Isn't that crazy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's probably common though, these days.

[B]

Yeah. And there's. It's not a scalable system. So if you can't, then you're terrified, then you're. It's. It's almost like the less good you naturally are at it, the more you're going to avoid it because it becomes a source of embarrassment.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It needs to be a scalable system where everyone's having wins, everyone's being acknowledged for the level they can do, having wins, taking pride, scalability. Like, this is what this already worked for. Knees over toes. Like it has gone all over the world. I go around, I see a guy two days ago, walking backward. Pull up next to him, walking backwards. He didn't see me.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Turns out, yeah. He saw it off my YouTube.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

So go all the way. All over the world, it is happening that people are doing knees over toes like never before. So that was crazy to think that I could actually make an impact on that when I started out. So it's just as crazy to think that 10 years from now, more kids will be able to do a pull up than today, but worth going for.

[A]

Yeah. I used to be ashamed walking backwards in public. I'm sure people dealt with that too, five years ago.

[B]

Yeah. I think you get some mental gains from doing something for yourself that you have the desire to do, even though the mainstream might look at you funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think I got some secondary mental gains from completely losing the social. It's wild thinking back even through high school, how much I based my decisions and actions on what others would think of me.

[A]

Oh, everything. Especially high school.

[B]

Yeah. So if you want to break that, you don't have to walk backward, but it's a drill you can do. I mean, you're literally drilling, doing something for yourself because you want to, versus, you know, even if society's gonna look at you funny.

[A]

Right? No, they used to. I used to think they would judge me, but at the end of the day, I don't think anyone really cared about you walking backwards. Yeah, they were just projecting.

[B]

You start to find if you're in your own head, most people probably are too. And so, yeah, you better pursue what you're trying to pursue in life and not let other people's thoughts about you slow you down.

[A]

Absolutely. Your mother sprinting at 70. I saw you talk about that. That's. Yeah, really impressive, man.

[B]

Thank you. Probably good for people to know that she didn't just immediately start doing this stuff. So I started a gym 10 years ago, and it took a few years for me to convince her to actually do these exercises. Her hip was deteriorating really badly. I visited her one time. She had fallen down the stairs and I was starting to go, like, this is getting real. And so at that point, then she started exercising with me and completely overcame the hip problems. And, yeah, I don't tell her to, but she was telling me, like, in recent years, like, oh, yeah. And I, you know, I like to sprint now. And I'm like, what's going on? So we got the cameras out and like, she looked good. She's cooking, she's sprinting. But what's cool is, like, she's a super grandma now. Like, when I need help with the kids, if we go to a playground, she can do Anything. She's mobile. She can get into low positions, run after them, climb all this stuff. Like, the joy that she's getting from being able to be active with the grandkids. Unbelievable. And they don't see her as a grandparent the way I saw my grandparents. No offense. I love the grandparents that I had, but my kids see her differently than how I saw my grandparents, as old and stiff. She's on the ground playing with them. Like, they see her. And it's not like I have to tell them, go give grandma a hug or something. Like, they're just running up because she's given me a break. I mean, Grandma is, like, as active with the kids as my wife and I are.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

So this is a modern cheat code. Secretly train your parents so they will be mobile athletes to help watch your kids and give you a break.

[A]

Little parenting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I love that, man. And that's a good point, because all my fondest memories of my grandparents are them sitting down in a chair, like a rocking chair, or them barely able to walk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that shouldn't be like that, though.

[B]

Yeah, my kids are getting deeper memories with their grandkids or my. Yeah, my. And my kids are getting memories now with their grandparents that are different than what I had where they're running with their grandparents, they're playing with them, they're down on the floor. Being kids with them.

[A]

That's incredible, man. Yeah. Because a lot of people really are scared of aging, but if you could provide a great lifestyle at that age, you know, that's really fulfilling.

[B]

Yeah, that's more what I'm after. Like, I'm not after my game is not how long I live. Like, I'm trying to have an awesome quality while I'm here.

[A]

We're here for a good time, not a long time.

[B]

I'd say probably both.

[A]

Yeah, I'm down.

[B]

I'd say probably both. But my role in the game is definitely improving the quality. And, yeah, if the quality's better along the way, you'll probably last longer, too.

[A]

Absolutely. Can you still do a split?

[B]

No problem.

[A]

Easily.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn, that's impressive, man, because you're strong.

[B]

Too many times, weirdly. On podcasts, I'm sure you guys. I can do the B roll for you after. You can. I don't. Yeah.

[A]

How long did that take to train to that point?

[B]

Interesting to say, because I was not pursuing it at all.

[A]

Really.

[B]

I was not pursuing a split.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Now, if you see a lot of my videos, strength training and flexibility, I see these as Part of a continuum. So a lot of the exercises I do, it would be hard for someone to pick. Is that more of a stretch or more of a strength training exercise. So I do a lot of strength training through my flexibility. This happens to give really good flexibility results. So it was just playing around maybe seven, eight years into this style of training and found out I could do a split, and it was like, what?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you didn't even know you just randomly did it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy. Do you think the flexibility helps with injury prevention?

[B]

I think if you're strong through those ranges, yeah. Now, I'm still a fan of strengthening and stretching separately. Like, I'm a fan of any kind of exercise you want to do. But, yes, I do believe there are exponentially powerful benefits to strength training through your flexibility.

[A]

What do you think about yoga? I've been thinking about taking yoga classes.

[B]

Didn't give me those results.

[A]

Oh, it didn't.

[B]

I did the strength training. I did the yoga. My knees still hurt. This is just me. But it's not against yoga. It's not against strength training. Getting the strength training where it's actually through my full flexibility was absolutely exponential results for me compared to separately stretching ranges that I'm not strong or strengthening areas, but being stiff.

[A]

Good to know. So I'll focus on your regimen then.

[B]

It's working for jumping if you want to.

[A]

That's my main goal, to increase my vertical.

[B]

So, yeah, I can make people springier if there's, you know, a few things I can do in life on the order of, like asking someone to mow a lawn that it's like, I can go get that result. Making people springer and jump higher. Definitely love it.

[A]

So crazy story. I've never told you this, but my mom tore her meniscus.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

She was a tennis player.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So the first time she tore, she got surgery on. I think it was her right knee. She tore it again on her left knee. I put her on your regimen. I showed her YouTube videos about walking backwards, tibialis raises and everything. She's perfectly fine now. Dude, isn't that crazy? She never got surgery on the torn meniscus.

[B]

Shout out to your mom.

[A]

Yeah, she watches every episode too, so.

[B]

Mama.

[A]

So thank you for that, man. That's. That's incredible. And all that information was free. You could have charged for that. So I appreciate that.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And I'm sure you hear stories like that all the time.

[B]

Makes my day. Like, I just got, like, chills right now. It Never, never gets old.

[A]

Wow, that's awesome, dude. Yeah. Because you save there a ton of money, ton of stress. Surgery is pretty invasive sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, it's. That's an interesting thing and one that I still won't be pretend to be an expert on is when you should have surgery versus when not. I would say that many doctors now reach out and tell me, hey, I referred this person, I referred that person to do my program. So I think that your best bet now is like doctors who learn what I do, they're now seem to be becoming really proficient at when to recommend surgery versus not.

[A]

That's. That's exciting actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the big pharmacists, they're under a lot of attack. But there are some good doctors out there.

[B]

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean think how many people get into some of those jobs because they want to help.

[A]

A lot of them mean well. Right? Yeah, they just get.

[B]

Yeah. When you really dig in and get to know people, I'd say people are a lot better than we broadly assume. Most people are really good people and if they even do get into some reason you dislike them, there's probably reasons for that that if you knew it would make a lot more sense.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, man, where can people buy the sleds? By the treadmill and keep up with you?

[B]

Yeah. ATG online coaching dot com. That's my bread and butter business. Coaching people without any equipment to do my knee ability program. That being said, what I try to do is teach everything I know on Instagram, on YouTube, I write threads on X. So wherever people are going to be accessing the information, that's how I like to do it. All the knowledge that I can put out for free. And then if you want coaching, I have, as far as I've seen, the lowest price to be able to see the programs. Send in your form, video your questions, have it answered under 24 hours, $50 a month, no long term contract. And then beyond that, some people want to get more equipment to make it user friendly or to add further levels to things. And so right from atgonlinecoaching.com there's the button to sign up and there's the button to check out the equipment and that's what I do.

[A]

Amazing. We'll link below. Thanks so much for coming on, Ben. That was awesome.

[B]

Thanks for having me on.

[A]

Yeah, look forward to doing getting trained by you.

[B]

Can't wait.

[A]

Let's do it. Thanks for watching guys. Check out the links below. See you next time.