75 Years of Building Georgia w/ Jonathan Strack – DT 314

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt: Episode Summary - "75 Years of Building Georgia w/ Jonathan Strack – DT 314"

Release Date: February 20, 2025

In this compelling episode of "Dirt Talk by BuildWitt," host Aaron engages in an in-depth conversation with Jonathan Strack, a third-generation leader in the construction industry. Celebrating 75 years of building in Georgia, Strack shares his insights on maintaining a multi-generational business, navigating economic challenges, fostering a strong company culture, and envisioning the future of the construction sector.

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1. Introduction to Jonathan Strack and His Legacy

Aaron kicks off the conversation by delving into Jonathan Strack's early aspirations and the foundational logic that led him to start a construction company at 18. Strack reflects on his personal journey and the seamless integration of his family's legacy into the business.

[01:14] Jonathan Strack: "When I wanted to start a construction company when I was 18. Because if I started a construction company, I could put my name on the company."

2. Multi-Generational Business: Upholding Family Values

Strack emphasizes the significance of family in sustaining a multi-generational business. He recounts the transition of leadership from his grandfather to his father, and finally to himself, highlighting the mentorship and values imparted throughout.

[04:10] Strack: "My grandfather started the company, and now I'm the third generation. We've been around the business my entire life."

He details the ceremonial recognition within the company, such as years of service awards, which reinforce loyalty and honor long-standing employees.

3. Navigating Economic Downturns: The Great Financial Crisis

A pivotal moment in Strack's career was the Great Financial Crisis, which forced the company to downsize drastically from 355 to 45 employees between 2008 and 2011. Strack discusses the emotional and financial toll of laying off workers, including tragic outcomes like the loss of an employee to suicide.

[16:03] Strack: "We were bidding 80 to 100 jobs to get one job... It destroyed about 40 years worth of equity."

Despite the adversity, Strack recounts how a significant sewer line project with Phillips and Jordan in Memphis helped the company gradually recover, underscoring the importance of perseverance and strategic project selection.

4. Leadership and Company Culture: Building Through Relationships

Strack attributes much of the company's resilience to strong leadership and a culture centered on relationships and mutual respect. He shares anecdotes about learning from seasoned professionals and the importance of treating employees with dignity and support.

[09:31] Strack: "I'm going to try as hard as I can every day. I'm not perfect and I won't treat you like a human being and not holler at you."

He underscores the necessity of empowering team members, allowing them to take ownership, and creating a supportive environment that prioritizes both individual and company growth.

5. Workforce Development and the Role of Immigration

Addressing the critical issue of workforce shortages, Strack advocates for streamlined immigration processes to bolster the labor pool. He highlights the invaluable contributions of Hispanic workers to the construction sector, sharing personal experiences of camaraderie and cultural exchange.

[46:34] Strack: "It's huge. I mean, it's not just for our industry, for our entire country and society."

Strack emphasizes the need for inclusive hiring practices and the positive impact of diverse teams on company dynamics and productivity.

6. Future of the Construction Industry: Adapting to Change

Strack shares his perspectives on the future challenges facing the construction industry, such as economic instability, declining birth rates, and the necessity for infrastructure development. He stresses the importance of adaptability and strategic diversification to ensure long-term success.

[33:31] Strack: "We're going to deal with a lot of change. Tumultuous is the best way to say it."

He discusses initiatives like workforce exposure days and partnerships with educational institutions to attract and train the next generation of construction professionals.

7. Community Engagement and Company Initiatives

Strack highlights the company's commitment to community involvement through service days, scholarships, and partnerships with nonprofits. These efforts not only give back to the community but also strengthen employee morale and company reputation.

[76:01] Strack: "We give everybody a set of safety-toed boots every year... We shut the entire company down into the service day."

He shares touching stories of employees connecting with their roots and the profound impact of these community-focused initiatives.

8. Balancing Profitability with Ethical Practices

A recurring theme in the conversation is the delicate balance between maintaining profitability and upholding ethical standards. Strack advocates for transparent communication, fair treatment of employees, and sustainable business practices that prioritize long-term stability over short-term gains.

[74:20] Strack: "It's a constant tension... You have to make money, but you also want to pay people as well as you can."

He argues that true success lies in building something of value that benefits both the company and the broader community.

9. The Importance of Building Strong Relationships

Strack and Aaron discuss the pivotal role of relationships in the construction industry. From client interactions to employee relations, fostering strong, genuine connections is essential for business growth and reputation.

[28:50] Strack: "If you sit down. I found when I'm in front of new clients and we're pitching them... we're going to interview them just as much as they're interviewing me."

He emphasizes the mutual respect and understanding required to cultivate lasting professional relationships.

10. Conclusion: Vision for the Future

As the episode draws to a close, Strack shares his vision for the future of his company and the construction industry. He underscores the importance of continuous learning, adaptability, and maintaining core values amidst evolving challenges.

[86:05] Strack: "It's an effort... we need a standard across the industry."

Strack reiterates his commitment to excellence, community engagement, and fostering a supportive environment for current and future employees.

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Notable Quotes:

• [17:37] Aaron: "Was weathering the storm always the intention, or was it like, this is just too much at any point in time?"

• [22:38] Strack: "Well, as I ran around all over the Southeast, I made a couple promises to myself. I don't want to ever go through this ever again. And I wanted to understand why it happened."

• [36:57] Strack: "I told our guys, really, almost 18 months ago, we sat down and laid out revision in our plan to 2030. And I said one of them was growth through partnership."

• [62:57] Aaron: "But it really is this industry. Like, it proves how essential what a... you can’t afford to be at the whim of the economy."

• [82:14] Strack: "If you're going to go do it and be genuine, the hard thing to go replicate is the care and the values."

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Key Takeaways:

• Legacy and Leadership: Maintaining a multi-generational business requires strong leadership, mentorship, and adherence to core values.

• Resilience in Adversity: Navigating economic downturns demands strategic project selection, diversification, and unwavering commitment.

• Workforce Importance: A diverse and empowered workforce is crucial for company success, with immigration playing a significant role in addressing labor shortages.

• Ethical Practices: Balancing profitability with ethical treatment of employees fosters long-term stability and positive company reputation.

• Community Engagement: Active involvement in community initiatives strengthens both employee morale and public perception.

• Future Preparedness: Adaptability, continuous learning, and strategic partnerships are essential for navigating the ever-evolving construction landscape.

This episode offers a profound exploration of the intricacies involved in sustaining a long-standing construction business, emphasizing the harmonious blend of tradition, innovation, and ethical leadership. Listeners gain valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs of building a legacy in the construction industry, making it a must-listen for professionals and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor and at this point we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest workwear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, ariat.com dirtttalk that is ariat.com dirttalk Anyway, we were talking about like 18 year old boy man logic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how it oftentimes is just very linear like X, Y, Z. So when I started or when I wanted, I wanted to start a construction company when I was 18. Because if I started a construction company, I could put my name on the company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which then my name meant. My name would be on machines, which then meant I could run the machines whenever I wanted to.

[B]

That's a good line of logic and I like that.

[A]

Which is my. It was flawless logic at the time. But like what you're saying with everything you have going on, you're not in the machines too much?

[B]

Never. It's like, it's never like I'm so far from the craft now that I love. It's a different deal now though. Like man, you know, we talk about it, it's more you're in business for the people in the relationships, the lifetime of experiences with them than you are. The day that people aren't involved here is the day I don't want to be here anymore. All the automation side is cool, but how do you differentiate yourself at that point? The whole industry's that way.

[A]

Yeah, but can the whole industry go that way?

[B]

No. Not in our lifetime.

[A]

No.

[B]

I don't see it. I mean. Yeah. Is it possible? Yes. Is it economical? No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, we're not mining. That's the biggest issue. When we sat down with all these people, they want some, you know, mining. I can't give you $500,000amachine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't. I've still got to be competitive.

[A]

Well, and mining, they're in a closed environment.

[B]

Yeah. Static, no risk of the public. None of that. Yeah. It's. Yeah.

[A]

There's no gas line running through the mine.

[B]

Yeah. We're the hardest thing to come try and do this with.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Certain places. Yeah. I think it worked beautifully. But other places.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you do manhole tie ins?

[A]

How do you Differentiate when. I mean, yeah, there's some pretty cool stuff coming, but it's still, it's odd to me to watch the manufacturer. I just saw a manufacturer do this the other day. How they say our customers are facing this workforce challenge. So this is our solution. And it was a automated machine. And it's just like to me, that guy needs to get out into the field at some point and just look around, see how the machines his company makes are used. Because it's just like, I understand what you're going for here, but it's very tone deaf, I feel like.

[B]

So he might be right. From a few. 30 years from now to an extent, but not right now.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. We also talked about multigenerational businesses. This is a multi generational business. Who started the company?

[B]

My grandfather.

[A]

So you're third generation, that guy.

[B]

But he never looked like that, the.

[A]

Guy over your shoulder. Yeah, third generation. So you've been around the business your entire life?

[B]

Yeah. So I got a years of service award at Christmas for 30 years.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

So we do years of service award. I didn't know I was getting one. I would have told them not to make me one. Yeah, yeah, I got one and I accepted it with one other guy. We've kind of. We started doing this a couple of years ago. So we stagger them out. We've got guys that have been here 25 years. So every company meeting we'll go ahead and give them a 15 year, then a 20, then 25. So we've been working through that.

[A]

What'd you get for your 30 year?

[B]

I didn't get anything.

[A]

Not even a cool jacket or something?

[B]

No, I got. We actually make a cool, like a homemade, um, I'd call it a trophy, but it's. It's a pretty cool setup.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Christina makes it for us. So some of them, some of them have a dirt. Like a pedestal with a dirt box and a little mini model in it. Mine, mine was like a piece of granite with a leather wrapped block with an excavator on top of it and a placard. I mean, it's. We make them all here, so they're all handmade. So, you know, I learned a long time ago when you go to see guys in their home, on their deathbed, something like that, if they're sick or ill, you'd be really surprised how much. Like a memento or an award or a plaque or certificate. That's what they have a lot of times. And unfortunately we went to viewing for a Long time employee today and he's in the casket and he's in a 20 year old striking jacket. Like he's been given plenty of other ones, but they put him in one that I know we gave out 2003. Sometime in there I was like, wow, I hadn't seen that in a long time. Like me and dad still have one and that's probably it.

[A]

Wow. At home, you know, Was getting into the business always the plan or did you? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I knew it. I mean, I'd say, I say birth, but by the time I was 2, 3, 4 years old, I mean, that's all I thought about, you know.

[A]

Did you have siblings growing up?

[B]

Nope. So it was just no siblings. Yeah, I was the third try and they didn't know if I would make it kind of thing. So, you know, they were real. They got me. So sure, I was lucky and cursed. I mean, I think in one way, yeah, you end up being a little more selfish, but you wanted to be plenty resilient when you've got nobody else to help you or blame anything on or any of that.

[A]

I feel like, yeah, well, I'm still selfish and I have two siblings, so it's technically more than 30 years. You've been around since you, since you could walk, you were around the business.

[B]

That's when I started getting taxed. Was. Dad taught me that early. But yeah, now, I mean, I remember we helped build a master plan city near here, Peachtree City. We worked on the city for 33 years.

[A]

I was looking at it on the map last night. Yeah, it's just out there.

[B]

Yeah, it's a cool place. Anyway, so we're laying this big outfall trunk sewer and dad puts me on a cat 245 and a guy's laughing. I'm digging and beating on Shot Rock. 4 years old with guys in the hole. And ironically, the guy in the hole that day, his name was Rocky. He's long since passed. Rocky and his brother, who still work for us, taught me everything I know about how to lay fight.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It's really interesting, the journey I've been on. All these men and women that taught me, they all kind of represent one of our core values. And if you're spiritual, they represent a fruit of the spirit, each one of them individually. And you find in construction there's this lineage. Any place that's been around for a while, you can trace it back just like an NFL coaching tree. There was somebody two or three generations ago that taught something in a certain way. And it still lives on today. If you've had the right culture and the right people, you know.

[A]

Well, what I was talking about, Mark, too, at the multi generational business, is that it's. The multi generational business is very interesting because I feel like as you build a business, it teaches you a lot of things. If you come into a business decades into its existence, I feel like you're playing catch up in some regards. Cause you haven't got, for lack of a better term, the shit beat out of you by building the business, getting it to that point. And he made an interesting point where he's like, you can get some of that from the previous generation, your dad, or whoever you're taking over from, but you can't get everything from them because the success of the business also depends upon you doing some things differently. So you have to get it from other people, too. And so it sounds like you got it from all sorts of people within the business.

[B]

I did, Yeah, I did. And a lot of good peers in the industry, too. I mean, at some point, that's the fun thing. When you get where I'm at, who do you go talk to sometimes? I mean, there's a couple out there, but at a certain point, you got to go find somebody that's already been there and done it. In one case.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you need somebody, you know, like up here in the middle of it right now, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

Yeah. But you start to get a little bit bigger. And now you're a threat. Even when you're not a threat, you're perceived as a threat. So I've. I've been. I was talking to somebody about that last night. I was like, I'm trying to. Most doors are open to me right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to walk through them. I'm going to walk through as many as I can right now. Because I know at some point some of those doors are gonna shut once I'm perceived as a threat or I'm older. Like, that's. Yeah, that's the benefit of being young. And I think that's a big reason why I've been able to do what I do is like, I'm not very tall, I'm not very imposing, I can't grow facial hair. I look like I'm somebody's kid. And so I can. And that's not the only reason. But I think that's actually really helped me. Like if I was 6 foot 5 with a beard and a sleeve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look like I'm 43. I would have a much harder problem, I think.

[B]

Yeah. No, and I mean the other thing, too. You'll find, and I'm sure you're already there. You know, you make your connections, you grow. Some of those connections change, and some of them, as you hand keys off your key ring and give responsibilities to other people, you know, within your organization, they're now the ones that have got to go. Be your mouthpiece, ambassador and representative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, for whatever and whoever you are. And it's now their Rolodex, per se, for lack of a better term.

[A]

Sure. When did the business transition from your dad to you?

[B]

We ran it together during the great financial crisis, and then coming out of it in 2011, we. Or actually 2012, we started having talks about changing ownership structure. I, over time, had taken on more and more ownership, but I became majority owner, I think, right at the end of 2012, and we pretty much swapped roles day to day. Then he became CEO, I became president, and then I bought him completely out three or four years ago.

[A]

Now, how did you guys work together?

[B]

Well, I mean, I couldn't ask for a better mentor, a better teacher. He was far more patient than me. I think if we had been kind of the same personality type, it would have been harder. I'm probably a lot more like his dad was from the stories I've been told. His dad passed when I was about 6, so never got to see some of the sides of him that I've been told about. You know, dad taught me how to be a great servant leader and be humble. And, you know, that was in the recession. We had a hard time just because, you know, we're having to lay people off. And I remember I'd been squabbling with him. And there's one day I came in, I said, hey, man, I said, let's go. Plead out of line. Never do that to you again, and I'll always back you. And, you know, since then, sure, we'll have a educated argument, but it won't be a. It won't be anything where you don't talk to one another or anything like that. That's just not us. We've never been that way. We're going to both state our sides, and then at the end of the day, 98% of the time, we ended up reaching the same conclusion. It really. It got to be as we grew. And when I got married and we're blessed with two stepsons, I went from nobody in the house to a whole lot in the house. He was coming back from his winter vacation. I said, hey, man, for lack of a better term, I can't regurgitate my day to you anymore. And out of respect, I've been running everything by you, but I just can't. I'm getting older. I don't have the bandwidth. I don't want to work 85, 95 hours a week anymore. Right now, like, it's just not good. And I. And I'm in a different season in life. And he totally understood it. You know, it's. It's a change, but, you know, you can't keep up with everything. When we got to about 400 folks, like, I just, I couldn't keep up with everything day today. I mean, you just can't. Like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You just can't. Yeah. I was like, bud, we have a team. So it's a very different story. When I had say, go talk to this guy, rather than coming to me for a lot of the answers.

[A]

Yeah, we've got about 50 and I already. It's already off on its own. Like, I don't have my hands around a lot of what we do. But that's okay at the same time because I. At least those we have, I completely trust them. You do what you need to do. You're the subject matter expert. I'll be here if you need support. But I can't keep up.

[B]

No, no, it's just, you got to really go knight your people and let them go represent you.

[A]

Your dad is still around quite a bit.

[B]

He is, yeah. He was actually here today.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I thought I saw him walk in. Yeah, I saw him the last time I was here. Which I think is the last time I saw you. When we slept in the back.

[B]

Probably. That's probably the last time. Yeah. When y'all did the road show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. This was the very first place we slept in the RV and just. It began six weeks of complete nonsense that I won't do again. But what does he do nowadays? Whatever he wants to do.

[B]

That's what I. When everybody asked me, I was like, he does what he wants. He's. He's part time project managing our new building up front for our project managers and estimators. Yeah. That three story building. We're just, we're out of room on the campus. Yeah. And need some more places to go. We got guys shoved in office trailers and rental buildings and all kinds of places and we just, we need more places than we have. So.

[A]

So he was. And he was pretty good at. As you guys transition the business backing Off. Hey, these are your decisions to make. Now, I'm here to support you, but I don't have anything to do with it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He'll want to know what's going on. He'll ask everybody else to, hey, what are you doing? And all that. That's okay. He's just doing it from a point of care and he wants to be involved. He helped grow it and really birth it into what it is. You know, he gave it. He gave me a great springboard and opportunity, you know, because it was almost like starting over out of the recession. I had a good nucleus, but, man, it was, you know, it was a hard time for five years for us. So.

[A]

Yeah. So in that, in that period of time, were you guys primarily in. It was, I'm assuming, private work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Development related work.

[B]

Yeah. When. When, you know, 2008 struck, we probably had 85% of our guys on a subdivision site development, and 15% of our work was either rail or public pipeline. And that's really all we had to go live on. And we had a bunch of developers bankrupt on us, and we ended up paying our suppliers 100 cents on the dollar out of our assets, tried to keep as many guys as we could, but we laid off the majority of the company. We had 355 people in 2008. By spring of 2011, we had 45.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it really was.

[B]

And destroyed about 40 years worth of equity.

[A]

That's extraordinary.

[B]

We were bidding 80 to 100 jobs to get one job.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No, I'm not kidding. Because I was bidding them, holy smokes.

[A]

It was that competitive because when the market dries up, then everybody's bidding everything.

[B]

Yeah, No. I would get in the truck and I would ride this loop from Huntsville up through Tennessee, over to Raleigh, back down the coast through Savannah, and come home and I look at everything I could, and I'd sit down, I fedexed, I don't know how many bids, and I'd get suppliers or other subs that we knew in the area. Hey, will you please call me with a bid? Opening results. I couldn't get to all of them. Yeah, you know, mom took bids. We had all kinds of people. I had our chief mechanic, our dispatcher. I mean, everybody did everything for a while. Wow.

[A]

Was weathering the storm always the intention, or was it like, this is just too much at any point in time?

[B]

Oh, no. We got to a point where we. We sat down. I was actually working for C.W. matthews at the airport on a job, and we were losing Money on everything we were doing. Trey Bradbury, that worked for us, he unfortunately fell in a boring pit, got paralyzed. My mom got breast cancer all at the same time. So this guy really, I mean, it felt like it fell for our family. And we were, you know, spring of 2011, we closed our books at the time, March 31st, and we're looking at the financials with the CPAs, and it's like, what do you. We really want to keep going because if this continues, I knew I could probably start over and go work for somebody else. But my dad, man, like, you know, he's got to have something left. And we had a real. We had an honest discussion, like, are we going to keep going or not? And we landed a big sewer line nearby and did a job with Phillips and Jordan up in Memphis for our mutual client, Norfolk Southern built a big intermodal yard and really just steadily started climbing out of the hole then. But it was, you know, it was at the point, if I messed up one more. If we messed up one more work cycle, my dad was going to have nothing. And I had to make good and sure that didn't happen.

[A]

It's. I think two people outside of business don't quite understand. It's like just because you have a contract or something like that, that really doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Like, a developer can just say, we're actually not going to start on this. They can pause projects, something outside of their control can shut them down, they can go bankrupt and you can still be owed stuff, but the recourse is limited. And even if you have the ability to go collect on something, it's years, years away. Sometimes it is.

[B]

Or your pennies on the dollar. We chaired the unsecured debtors committee or the oldest publicly traded home builder, Levitt and Sons. We ended up with less than 5 cents on the dollar. And all I learned is from all the legal correspondence. Our controller had this giant stack of paper that we kept, and it was all the bills and the legal correspondence for the bankruptcy committee. It was a million dollars for about every inch and a half is what the attorneys got paid. They're the only ones they had a bonanza with that whole period.

[A]

But, yeah, my father, he's a lawyer that specializes in bankruptcy, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My best friend's mom's a bankruptcy trustee, so I got to hear about it on the other end at the dinner table.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But, yeah, it's a different feeling. I mean, you know, the way I've Always looked at it is whoever you employ, you know, multiply that by three or four for dependence. You know, it hurts going through stuff like that. You know, I laid off a guy that he went home and shot his wife and shot himself. And that's the kind of stuff like I knew he had money problems when I let him go, but I didn't have any work for him either. But you feel like it's your fault 100% and toted that around a long time. That's for us. That's always my pitch, like, man, I'm going to try as hard as I can every day. I'm not perfect and I won't treat you like a human being and not holler at you. Sure, I'm going to ask you to do your job. You got to hear some of that in the hallway earlier. But there's nothing wrong with asking somebody to do their job once you set some standards too. It's all how you go about it and conduct it.

[A]

So how did you all rebuild the business at that point? I know it's one job at a time, but what were some of the lessons learned from that period that you've used to rebuild?

[B]

Well, as I ran around all over the Southeast, I made a couple promises to myself. I said one, I don't want to ever go through this ever again. And I wanted to understand why it happened. So economics became my part time hobby. The other thing was I really became a Saiyan to myself. I said I'm going to hone my sword every day. And what that means to me is I'm going to get better at my craft every day, good or bad. I'm going to make hard decisions all based around. I'm going to spend every day trying to make us stronger. But I wanted to try and do it as best to my ability to the right way and still uphold the family standard, some moral standards and really try and do it from a relationally based, really principles over profits mentality. Like look, do all the right things, do what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it, do it for a fair price, one time be a good communicator, good or bad. And the other thing I promised to myself was hey, I gotta go diversify or book a business. I've got to go find clientele that probably won't go bankrupt on a whim. Sure there's always going to be subdivision site work. That's good money, it's profitable. We've got longtime relationships. Sure we're always going to do some of that work. But I should probably try and work for some power companies, do more rail work, work for some industrial property developers. And we set about trying to do that coming out of the great financial crisis, rehired some people, hired a business development director. Really made an intentional push to try and sell who we were, sell ourselves as best value. And as we did that, we figured out we were primarily a pipe company then. And we figured out if we didn't, it didn't matter if we brought the best team to the table. If we didn't control the earthwork ourselves, we probably weren't going to get the work. So we spent a year bidding internally and then when we were ready, we started doing the work ourselves.

[A]

So when you say bidding internally, do you mean bidding jobs that have already been bid? Don't look at the answers yet. Bid the job. Compare.

[B]

Not as much that, no, we were just bidding earthwork ourselves.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

At the time. But we weren't telling anybody in the industry what we were doing then. I see at all, I see we were just steadily building backlog because I'd had guys that had either done or bid that work other places.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And what we found when we started doing that on our own and grew pretty rapidly, we had allies at other places that then wanted to come work with us. And we had some old clientele that was willing to give us work. They didn't want to split up contract scopes anymore. They wanted one contractor to do the site work and picked up a bunch of new clientele. But we were always really intentional about chasing our clientele where we wanted to be. And I mean it's a business development effort and then you better go follow through on what you promise.

[A]

The just following through and keeping your word is something that's so straightforward but actually quite rare the further I've gone in business.

[B]

It's a hard balance. You're always in this tension between. You do have to be profitable. Yeah, you're a for profit business. But what not everybody understands that works with you or deals with you in businesses, you know, in the world of corporate banking. And you better be profitable to a certain extent or they can call you loans due or anything like that. So there's a certain point to be prudent for the business, you have to have a good basis to work off of. So you do you, you have to be profitable. But man, you really have to lead from the top down and really back your people. Like look, you better mean it when you say do the Right thing. And I'll back you and have a good reason behind it. We may lose a pile of money or we may have to clean up some stuff and lose a pile of money. And you're going to have to let some folks fail for a minute, too, to get some long range success. So, I mean, yeah, it's hard, and it's really hard to do if you're publicly traded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Possibly owned by private equity and you've got a timetable to generate a return.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know that it's a lot easier for me because, hey, I don't have anybody I have to report to.

[A]

You can't put pipe in the ground. Your contract, your schedule's blown out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can still lose a ton of money when it's not even your quote, unquote fault.

[B]

No. And I mean, even then, we were always extremely fortunate. We were working behind some of the best people in the business anywhere in the country. And there's four or five, six. Six folks in Atlanta that are very capable, very upstanding, great at what they do.

[A]

There's some big contractors.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Compete against them every day. And that's, you know, you never show up and, like, slander your competition either. It's like, look, man, they've got folks over there that are as good as us. You know, my pitch is I'm gonna tell you what it's gonna cost up front one time and that you're not gonna get every client that way. You know, that's okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if you sit down. I found when I'm in front of new clients and we're pitching them, I'm gonna interview them just as much as they're interviewing me. And typically, you know, we're going to say, look, we're going to get out of the truck. We're not going to step foot out of the truck and fight. That's not us. That's never going to be us. And, you know, we expect to have some common courtesy, get treated forthright, you know, act like human beings. We do all these things. Great. We also expect that out of you, you know, and usually you get a good reaction if you do. Those are the folks you do business with, want to do business with. If you don't, that's probably your red flag to say, all right, this might be a one and done right here.

[A]

Yeah. Which is, again, it sounds simple and it's probably easy to walk away. Easier to walk away when everything's good. But when you need work, it gets a lot more challenging.

[B]

Oh, it gets A lot harder. I mean, you're given your equity and your livelihood back to stand behind those principles. I mean, yeah, oh, yeah. You make a real conscious effort to do it. And it came better for me because I had a great teacher and a great leader that I was watching do it with him at the same time, like, if you didn't have that and that'd be a lot harder thing to do. I know.

[A]

Yeah. You said you started studying economics. One of my favorite things to learn about is how the world works. I love it. And most people have not a clue how things work. I didn't have a clue how things work. I still don't. But I've learned. Every time I learn a little bit more, it's like, wow, this is wild. And so I understand why most people don't understand it, because, one, it's complicated, Two, they have enough going on in their lives. But when you're in charge of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, which then support hundreds and hundreds and thousands of people, and then subcontractors and then customers, et cetera, you can't afford to put your head in the sand and just be at the whim of the economy. How has the, like, what have you seen over the past few years? And what, what are you thinking about going forward? Because it's been a wild five years from an economic standpoint.

[B]

You know, I feel like our country, us as Americans, we don't look at history like we should.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, we're very much, you know, our world we lived in and the stability it's provided us really got born out of complete calamity. You think about the whole New Deal era, the Works Progress Administration, the fact that post World War II or coming out of the World War, we had the Bretton Woods Agreement where we agree to trade all things in US dollars. That would never happen ever again. But it took absolute disaster for it to happen before. And if we don't value it anymore and we don't value rule of law as a Western world, and we're not willing to come together as a Western world, at some point, we can't predict what it is, but we're going to have a hard time. And all the while you have a decline in birth rate worldwide in the Western world. I mean, eventually, in one frame, it's going to impact our industry. On the other idea, all these things that are causing instability in the world also are causing some reshort of manufacturing. We need new infrastructure, additional infrastructure, whatever it may be. Construction will be a benefactor from it Long run. But you know, societally, all these other things we deal with in the workforce right now, you know, it's going to be a lot of challenges and we need strong leadership that we don't have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I just feel like we're going to be going into, you know, a 10, 15, 20 year period that may be not quite as kind to us as it's been societally.

[A]

Tumultuous.

[B]

We're going to deal with a lot of change. Yeah. Tumultuous is the best way to say it.

[A]

Yeah. And I hadn't really thought about it until a few years before, but yeah, Post World War II created globalization. And that wasn't that long ago. No, in the grand scheme of things, if you put everything on a timeline like 80 years ago, not that long ago. And I always assumed, I'm almost 30 years old, born in the late mid-90s, I always assumed the globalization, US dollar being the reserve currency, so on and so forth, growth that is just the constant. And then I start to look into it. It's like, hey, there is no guarantee of this going forward.

[B]

No, no. And, and you know, that's. I met the CFO of one of the largest banks in the US here recently. And anytime I get time with somebody like that, you know, they're always looking at a very macro perspective that I'm never going to get. So I asked the same question, man, rub your crystal ball and tell me what you see in five years. And typically the stock answer is, well, we don't project that far. Now what do you really think? What bothers you? And one of those things was if the country continues to deficit spend, at some point there will be a crisis of confidence in the US dollar. And when that happens and when. And if we're not the reserve currency, nobody can tell you what's going to happen.

[A]

Yeah, but what's driving me nuts is that's being accelerated artificially through sanctions than through sanctioning Russia and Iran and some others that we don't really need to sanction. And we've been sanctioning Russia for years and their economy's stronger as a result because they've become a war economy again and we've shown our hand. And then China and Russia and Saudi Arabia and Brazil and others are like, well, wait a minute, there's an opportunity here. Yeah, yeah, no, and I don't blame them because, yeah, potentially, yeah, we don't.

[B]

Have any buddies anymore.

[A]

No.

[B]

In the world. And that's the expectation with NATO and all these things. Is we're allied and aligned as a Western world where we're really not anymore. And that's, you know, we'll see how that plays out over the next 15 years, I'm sure.

[A]

But I think, like you said, I do think construction will be a benefactor.

[B]

I do, too.

[A]

Because we're going to have to make more stuff here. I think we do.

[B]

And you can't predict what's coming, whether it's some Black Swan event or whatever it is. You just need to be shrewd enough to be able to call the right audible to pivot where you need to pivot to, because there's just. Whatever happens, we'll be due for something that we can't foresee, a la great financial crisis kind of thing. Something like that will happen again. It always does. And for us, learning from what we did last time, I've got six or seven lines of business now.

[A]

How do you balance, though, between a potential whatever happens in the future versus something that I've been watching, because I'm kind of in the stands in some ways, especially in the Southeast. These monster projects that did not exist five years ago, that have never really existed, that are all spurred, made possible by federal and state spending.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That. That require crazy amounts of equipment, manpower, materials, and so you have to make hay while the sun's shining. I understand that. Completely get it. These monster projects, like, they make perfect sense. Like, why wouldn't I go do it? But then at the same time, scaling up to accommodate them is putting yourself in a really risky position.

[B]

We talk about it all the time. The phrase I use, the hangover is worse than the high.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because. Yeah. You're going to leave all your clientele behind to go do one thing that, you know, is not sustainable. I saw plenty of folks not live through the last downturn because of that. And the thing to me is, I told our guys, really, almost 18 months ago, we sat down and laid out revision in our plan to 2030. And I said one of them was growth through partnership. We got to go do some of this work together. You know, part of while, you know, we were blessed that C.W. matthews, Dan Garcia, was kind enough to call Anthony Garcia at Landmark. And, you know, after a conversation of saying, hey, I can't come help you, but these guys maybe could. We're out there working with them at Scout Motors.

[A]

Really.

[B]

And it's awesome.

[A]

It came through, Dan, huh?

[B]

Yeah. That's how it came. And it came based off a reputation and previous work and like, yeah, we know one another, but not all that well but you know, it's a great example of, you know, reputation, competency, plenty of good track record that gets you work more times than you'd ever imagined from places that you never expected. I mean, never say never and don't burn many bridges like you gotta burn a bridge, you better be ready for the consequences. And they're long lasting and far reaching typically, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I've been, I'm grateful to not have much of a temper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't, I don't get very emotional and I don't get angry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've wanted to say some things and I have said some things at times but I've avoided that for the most part. And then it's come back around a few years later and it's just like, oh, this could have been a way different outcome had I opened my mouth.

[B]

It happens to the best of us. I mean you'll be in the position, position at one moment. You need race and you're going to be in the position at some point. You're the one that's got the power. But man, you just, you always gotta remember I could be that person across the table.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I better treat somebody right. And not just to bean them or be overly hard on em or anything like that. Because at some point I'm not perfect. Neither are they. Let's just get past whatever the issue is.

[A]

You know, I've seen a lot of people, I think I just talked about this with Randy the other day. They get, a lot of times they get caught up in proving they're right too. And even when they've been wronged and they are right, they get consumed by proving that they're right. Which can become very expensive in all sorts of ways.

[B]

Yeah. And that's like, you know, most really good leaders will tell you, you know, you're you, you're not too arrogant to learn from somebody else. You don't know everything. And you know, there's plenty of folks in business that have said this in one way or another like you not. You need to find the people that really make up for your weaknesses. Acknowledge your weaknesses and acknowledge that yeah, you can make a mistake and own it and go on, you know, it's just, it's not worth. All you're doing is damaging yourself and causing yourself stress. Cause man, those lawyers, they'll take those dollars all day long and smile because all you're doing is making that jet payment for them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean that's what you do.

[A]

They're really friendly yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's somebody that's on a billboard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's from stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The further I get into business and the more I'm around, the less I like it. But it's a necessary evil at the same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting, though, through partnerships, that's a good way to do things. You can have a bite at the apple, but you're not grabbing the whole apple.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I guess is the best way to put it. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean, you've got to be willing to take your share of the pie and be happy with it. Even if somebody seems like they're getting more recognition on the job or whatever, hey, be a part of it because you're still building something fantastic for us as citizens, state citizens, US and societal citizens. Another thing is you're furthering your business interests. At the end of the day, all you're doing is making contacts and opening doors either for maybe a future employee, an engineer, an ally or contact, or you're helping grow somebody that may be three or four rungs down the ladder from you. That's watching how you're acting on the job. Like, hey, at some point we're at the other end of our career where the folks that maybe were in the job trailer in the corner 30 years ago, they're now determining whether we have credit capability, we're getting a job, we're credible. They may, all they may remember is the asshole you were 30 years ago in the trailer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, that's the truth of it, you know, you never know who you're going to meet.

[A]

Well, I've, like, just started to wade into those waters a little bit.

[B]

Like, no, you're seen in a stature far higher than you see yourself. That's like as you get older, you're going to figure. And you see it because you've been all over the world now. Like, you're looked at as here by a lot of people and you look at yourself down here, you know, and that's. You can't really do anything to change that. Just be who you are.

[A]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it, but yeah, just being a good individual again. It's like. I don't know. I do think I gravitate to civil construction because it's self perform. I think self perform generates this level of humility within ownership and within the workforce that I don't see in very many other places in society. And so I encounter people that are less than savory often but Very rarely within this world, very rarely within civil construction, earthmoving pipe, which I really love. That's why I love this world.

[B]

Yeah, we all like to help. We all like to help charitable causes, other people. I mean, you learn if you grew up in this world, you're no better than anybody else and you never will be. And most people always remember that we all came from somewhere. And your hope is you can provide a good life and help other people better themselves while you're enjoying what you do and you hope you can leave something behind for somebody else to embrace that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

And, yeah, I just. It's. It's fun. We've been able to bring in a lot of people from outside of this world into this world, and then once they find the dirt world, they don't want to leave because it really is different. It is completely different.

[B]

Oh, man. All my money, all my best friends that are working in big tech. I mean, yeah, you know, we're all 40 to 50, me and my friends. And, you know, they're at the point where they're seeing the other side of tech is now a mature business, and they're having mature business issues. You know, there's not this infinite growth platform for a lot of them. And, you know, we're talking about, you know, workforce development, leadership training, and, you know, we did a company service day last year, and they're all like, man, we want to come work in this business. I'm like, we need data analysts now. We need all these things we didn't need before. So, man, you might find a great fit. We need all your talent, all your experience, and you'll find a good environment. I think that's not this shareholder value mentality.

[A]

Going to workforce. What in the news right now is immigration for a hundred different reasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What role do you think immigration plays in growing the workforce for the industry?

[B]

It's huge. I mean, it's not just for our industry, for our entire country and society. We don't fix the lack of household formation happening until we're a lot older. Now, birth rate issues or any of that. And economic productivity issues is a macro issue. Unless we fix immigration and embrace it. And at some point, there should be an easier path to get it done. It's your experience in it. With my guys, it's not easy. And there should be more of a streamlined process. Especially now, you've got people here for their second generation and not for, you know, starting their third generation, you know, and there's plenty of families that in other places in the world that are not as fortunate as us that want to be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We should have let them be good citizens here. There should be a way. You should be able to, you know, as an employer, vouch for. Vouch for your person with an affidavit, you know, sponsor them, do something. You know, there's.

[A]

In this market, there's quite a bit of immigrant labor, I think, isn't there? Mostly Hispanic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And you guys probably have a lot of Hispanic folks working for you.

[B]

We do, yeah. That's the majority of the guys I grew up with. The guy I went to the funeral viewing for today, I mean, he's part of a core group of probably 35 or 40 guys that I grew up with and have been here 20 to 30 years somewhere in that range. And, you know, they're. Hey, man. They're what you want in your country and in your society. I mean, they're. They're salt of the earth, really good family people that hear about everybody they meet in the world and work hard and humble. I mean, it's everything you hope your kids or your family members turn out to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. I came up in Arizona, so almost every single pipe crew in the state is Hispanic, mostly Mexican, some Guatemalan. I'm from El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela. I mean, they're from all over, but mostly Mexican in Arizona. And, I mean, obviously I'm having fun now, but outside of Billboard, I never had more fun working than with those guys.

[B]

They're awesome. Because, I mean, you know, as long as you kind of get out of the car and talk to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Try and have a good time with them and just get out there and work, man. It's awesome. Oh, yeah. You know, not a better cultural philosophy than, like, you know, they're going to give you a good, hard day's work. They're going to work with you. They're going to try and help you. And, you know, you can't say that for everybody else you meet in life. And that's just. That was kind of what I found, the cultural norm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. It's. There was a video I saw on the Internet that was just. I was losing it when I was looking at this, because it's so true. It's like. It was like, white boy lunch. And it was like, hey, Jared, what's for lunch? And it's like. It's like a piece of ham and like, two pieces of white bread. And he's a construction worker, I think. And then. And then he was like, One, one, what's for lunch? And he's like, oh, today we've got, we've got tacos.

[B]

And like they're gonna be cooking.

[A]

He has it all laid out and everything. Every day is like this whole different, like. And then he goes back to the, to the, to the white guy and it's like, you know, a hot Pocket or something like that. And he's got all different kinds of burritos. And it's like, that's exactly it. They eat so good.

[B]

They do. And man, you know, we learned how to cook on anything. I cooked on a diamond saw blade with some bricks up under it and the fire up under it. They were, they were cooking tortillas on a 55 gallon drum top that didn't have the paint stripped off. I don't know what was in the top.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, but hey, it tasted good. I chicken out of asphalt one day. You know, I had guys cooking chicken in some hot asphalt one day. I mean, learned all kinds of stuff. And man, that, that, you know, that whole culture of, hey, here, take what's mine, experience it with me. And that, that's the coolest thing in the world to me.

[A]

Well, that. And that was like, the top comment was like, well, like. But the, and the difference is the Hispanic high will always share with you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They will always give you some. And they were having their wives make me make, make me food and bringing me extra and they were just like, they were inviting me to their kids birthday parties.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it was just, it was like, what is this? This is, this is like nothing else I've been around.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's this decoupling. We've had a society, I mean, you know, we've got to find new ways to go bond and we've got to be intentional and purposeful about it, you know, and that's in our industry, you're seeing it borne out and, you know, training and workforce development, you know, it's really, you know, you're having to try and replace what should have been taught in the home. And you know, it's like, I phrased it to my guys starting out, I'm like, some days you may feel like you're part parent and part employer and part boss, but you know, people are still people. I mean, 80, 88 years old, they're still the same, you know, they want to be treated well for what they do. You want to have some financial stability, you want to be talked to and treated, you know, like a human Being and really be able to live life kind of on your own means from making a living, hey, if you want to live in an rv, great. If you want to travel a bunch, have boats, you know, whatever, save for college, pay for your kids, sporting events, you're really just looking to be able to live a good life. And that doesn't change. And it's still getting back to that and getting people to really believe, hey, one, they can have that life. That's the other issue I see when we hire our younger men and women, man, they just, they don't have any hope they're ever going to own or be a part of anything, you know, and it's just trying to rekindle that and say, hey, look, it's up to you. Your ambition and your drive will totally take you to the top of the top ranks in construction and there's not many other places you can ever achieve that. You know, I.

[A]

Workforce is very complex. I think people make it way too black and white. There's nothing black and white about it. No, I think I am very pro immigration, especially growing up in Arizona. I've seen the benefits of it. But I also very much question the thought that that is going to make up for our birth rate long term because mathematically it can't because immigrants get old too and their birth rate declines as well. And then now you have a greater population that's declining at some point in time. So it's kind of kicking the can down the road.

[B]

Yeah. Self servingly it won't be our problem.

[A]

If we can fix it. Yeah, it's not your problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's not my kids and their kids.

[A]

Exactly. No, it's a much bigger amount of Social Security. It's like, we know this is so broken and so unsustainable, but there's just no way we can get rid of it. Are you gonna see, am I gonna see anything from Social Security? I bet everything I have that I will not see anything from it, but it's gonna have to break to get to that point.

[B]

Yeah, it takes absolute catastrophe for anything to get fixed. When you're an adult, it doesn't matter if you're an alcoholic or you're a gambling addict or whatever it takes, like hitting rock effing bottom before anything changes, typically.

[A]

I've seen that. I think most people have. Yeah, I think, I think though my dumb prediction is that the US economy at some point will have to retool itself. I think we've gone way too far in the knowledge economy. Direction and we have to pull back a little bit and produce more at a certain point. Just because the knowledge, the knowledge economy consume more, more, more, more, more, more. It's just not, it doesn't pencil out, it doesn't math at a certain point. Fortunately, we are one of the most resource risk rich countries in the world. We're one of the most impregnable countries in the world. Just geographically we're in a really good position. We can grow the food we need, drill the oil we need. There's a lot of stuff we can do that most other countries can't, which is remarkably lucky. It's just dumb luck that I'm here, that we're all here. But I think in that retooling there's going to be some jobs. And so I think Covid was the first look into what jobs are essential and what aren't. And there was an argument to say, well, all jobs are essential. And that's true, but it's also not. I think there's a lot of jobs that are completely made up in the grand scheme of things. That's just people trading paper and people like I used to think, because the school I grew up at, everybody's dad was somebody, everybody was really highly accomplished and they were all, they were all people who built stuff. So I just assumed that if someone has a lot of money and success in that category, they've built things, they've made a difference in the world, they've changed the world in a material sense.

[B]

Yeah, that's what you hope.

[A]

That's completely not true. That is so false. And there are so many people living in this fairytale land. But my point is here, I think there's a lot of people in these oftentimes miserable careers creating no value in the world that could be better off in a place like this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like one of my best friends did search engine optimization optimization work for years. And it was just like, you know, he's worked for a variety of, you name it, you know, big advertisement or head hunting companies. It's just, it's, you know, you're not really making anything.

[A]

No.

[B]

You're at the search engine swim as to if you're successful or not. Yeah. You got your educated guess at what, what makes things tick. But you know, are you, are you really adding anything for society? No. And I think, you know, we're, you know, three or four or five generations into now, some of the things that have made, you know, a modern life happen. Great sanitation system. We've got a Stable water supply. We've had a stable grid. All these things that folks think are right, that we had to make a lot of effort and spend a lot of our dollars to go build at some point. And the fact that everyone thinks they're a right and easily replaceable is far from the truth. The folks in North Carolina and now California are probably about to figure that out. I feel for some of the folks that are running those water departments and have been fighting those firefights right now. The folks in the Palisades, they don't understand, like, there's no way you can plan to go fight a wildfire with a municipal water system in a highly concentrated population base. Everybody just thinks, man, you turn on that spigot and that's just. It'll just be an unlimited supply and indefinite, no pressure, loss, none of that. And any of us in our business are like, man, no way you can go fight that thing.

[A]

Yeah, this is. That's. I do.

[B]

It's not possible.

[A]

And I do find. But that. But that, I think is an example of how people are disconnected from how their lives really work. It's like the criticism of the fires I've seen and the water, it's just like, they clearly don't understand how water gets to their house. Like, they don't. They don't have a clue what they're talking about right now.

[B]

They don't have a clue. And yes, you could probably do something where you could fight it, but it would cost us trillions of dollars on off chance. Yeah, it might happen. It hadn't happened ever before. So you're not going to spend that amount of dollars in something like that. But I think more and more, as you see these big hurricanes come through and wreck things and something's happening. Whether you believe in climate change or not, something's happening. It ain't normal. You've been all over the world, especially if you come from anywhere that's. You ever been to an Arctic environment or anywhere in the Rockies or anything like that? Man, you know, snow season's not quite as long. Snowpack's not as big most years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, it's. It's. Yeah, something's happening.

[A]

But at the same time, this is the first time in world history that the world has been this developed. Like a hurricane is not problematic out in the middle of the ocean? No, like it's. Or a fire is not problem. Like, fire is not bad. Like, we're like, fire is bad. It's like, no, no, no. That's a It's there for a reason. It's, it's a very natural thing. But it's bad when it rolls through the palace, you know, Palisades in, in, in California, because it burns up everybody's homes. Yeah, but it's like those homes haven't been there that long for that long.

[B]

No, no. You know, you think about it in a longer scale. I mean, what's their birth rate or what's our average lifespan done in the last 150 years? It's done nothing. But this never happened in the history of the world.

[A]

Well, even world population you look at over the past hundred years, it's like, wow.

[B]

Yeah. There's a shadow side to every shiny side of the coin. We may experience some of that now. It's natural. That doesn't mean it's going to be fun to go through.

[A]

No, no. But I need to figure out how to phrase this. I've become fixated on natural disasters because everybody gets fixated on them when they occur, but then everybody loses sight of what happens after. And with the fires, for example, I've already talked to contractors out there that are looking at the work while things are smoldering because. Or with the hurricanes, and we'll go to this side of the country, the hurricanes in North Carolina, the fire department, police department, the military even, they're only as good as the roads. If the roads are all covered up in trees, they can't get anywhere. So it's the contractors out there with equipment clearing the roads while the floodwaters are still raging to rescue people even. And then it's the contractors that clean up the mess. And that's the contractors that rebuild alongside the community and the state agencies and the police departments, et cetera. It's everybody. But it really is this industry. Like, it proves how essential what a Strack, a C.W. matthews, a landmark, whoever does. Because while it doesn't appear that essential day to day, because around you society's functioning when it doesn't, who do they call? They don't call the fire department. The fire department can't get them water. Again, it's the contractor, the guy in the ditch. And it's really, it's incredible to think about.

[B]

Yeah. And those are the, those folks in North Carolina. Like, it's a good example of, you know, the public at some point, all over the U.S. i mean, at some point we'll all be impacted by something like this. And you know, when the first thing I thought about when I saw just the devastation is like, it's Going to take decades. And there's whole water transmission mains that are gone. There are treatment plants that are inoperable. And members of the public, they just simply don't understand and have never been educated in the fact that we just don't go get VFDs and pumps and miles of ductile iron pipe. It just doesn't sit anywhere that takes years to get done. And all those environmental laws and regs and all that stuff, you got to throw all that out the window for a minute. Like if you want things to go function, that dirt's going in that river.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Like that's, that's just, that's how it got built years ago. And you know, there's a lot of things that, you know, people are going to have to be willing to accept when those moments happen. And you know, our hope is we're spending more and more time in front of schools. Next week we're doing a day, it's really a workforce exposure day for one of the local school systems. And they're going to cycle every eighth grader through and they're going to see contracting and engineering as one module and healthcare and that's pretty cool. Water and sewer and power departments as another piece. And just trying to explain, expose 8th graders to, hey, there's all these other industries. I mean, everybody knows. I mean, it doesn't matter if I talk to my doctors or my bankers or my accountants. Like everything I hear from everybody is there's not enough good willing young talent coming in any field right now.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I think it's a. I'm super optimistic too, because for the first time ever, college enrollment has declined in the United States. Because I think 20, 20, 2020 pulled the mask off the boogeyman in a lot of ways. And I think the colleges really overplayed their hand by making everything online and saying, but pay us even more for it. We're not by no means going to maintain the quality. We're going to require you to jump through all these hoops and you pay us more money for a worse education with none of the social benefits of college. Then I think a lot of people, rightly so, started to ask, well, wait a minute, hold on here. And I, I think people get too caught up in the college. No college. I think the dirt world construction industry, a great place for people with a college degree, A great place for people without a college degree. Yeah, I don't care if you have a degree or not. I don't think it really matters one way or the other. But I think, I think that also it does help us because rather than that being the sole direction for a majority of kids in the United States now.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

The question is certainly being asked if there's another alternative beyond the U.S. military.

[B]

Yeah. And if, you know, watching my kids and some of our coworkers, kids who are now, you know, graduating high school, going out in the workforce or college, I mean, you got a really smart group of people. They may be smart in different ways than we were, but they're also plenty smart enough to be skeptical to know, hey, I may not want to go work for that ABC publicly traded company or that multinational private equity backed thing that demands more and more of my life essentially. And that's always my pitch to somebody is look, you're coming to physically give me a slice of your life in exchange for a good place to work, good pay, but you are spending physical minutes of your life here. I need to make it worthwhile for you. I'm not perfect, but I promise, you know, I'll try really hard and I'll give you a great environment, I'll treat you well. And you, you man, my 13 year old knows he's not going to get that. Going to work for a lot of the larger companies in the world that.

[A]

Have a mission of like creating shareholder value or something like that. Something really inspiring. Something. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

[B]

Yeah. You know, we work for some of these people.

[A]

So I'm like, I know, I'm like.

[B]

Yeah, I gotta figure out a way to say this, but at the end of the day, you know, I'm. Same way. I mean you gotta have faith and have, have hope in your fellow man and woman that hey man, we're going to figure this out. Some way, shape or form we have throughout human history, we'll figure this out too. But you know, nobody's got an easy answer right now. So. No, enjoy the ride and be part of it. Be part of the solution.

[A]

How do you going to that school event? How do you show them what you all do?

[B]

The main thing for us, one, you've got to go somewhere and catch their eye. Part of why we have our training trailer with simulators in it, we have our prize wheel where you get somebody to come up, spin a wheel and get a prize or they've got to get on the simulator, earn a certain score, then they spin the wheel and it's just talking to them real ironically. I got to go back to my middle school about four or five weeks ago and I was like stepping back in time I stepped in this classroom I used to be in. We wheeled two 10 star simulators in there, and we probably got given the better kids in the grade, but it was cool nonetheless. And what I found, I didn't really know what I was going to find. Normally, we're cycling through a lot of people, and we're not in that intimate of an environment where I haven't been myself, let's put it that way. And really, you just go to work like anything else, talk to the people just like anything else. No different than having a new hire and really just praise them, tell them what they're doing right, Tell them what they're doing good. Hey, don't do this. But, you know, I told three young women, I said, man, y'all have, like, awesome spatial awareness. You do this way better than guys that have been doing this 35 years. Look like, hey, if you're visually minded and you might want to consider a career in engineering and construction, because U80s will rule the world in our industry. If you get in here and work hard because there's all the opportunity in the world, you can go create your own future. So please consider us. And my hope is that moment, they may not remember me or what company I was with or anything else. Maybe they just remember our industry and everything connected as a whole and give it a shot. Somebody gave a damn enough to spend a little time with me and tell me I'm doing something right for a change. At a time in your life, you may be unsure of yourself, you may not have a good home life, whatever it may be. Just give effort every time you're around you young people. That's all you can do.

[A]

And I think people in a way overcomplicate that because I think oftentimes it really comes down to one great experience. If you talk to people about where they got into it, they'll typically cite one. I can cite one experience I had, but most people can. It was this that just flipped a switch.

[B]

Here's the stuff you remember. Like, my dad, he started an apprenticeship program with the Georgia Utility Contractors association when I was 15. And everything everyone remembers about the first session was him setting up a pipe laser and, like, shining it on the teacher's butt when she turned around, you know? But you got people to laugh. And, like, everybody loves to laugh. Like, it's very disarming. There's two things that are really disarming, you know, one, laughter. And two, eating and sharing a meal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's probably two of the best things you can do. You know, if you've got somebody new that's just really nervous around you, like you know better than them, just be you. Be genuine and frying. Care, you know, about the moment you're spending with them. That's all you can do.

[A]

How we're in the Southeast. How so? I think people are very skeptical and jaded in general, especially with employers. I see all the, all the comments online are always about how these big companies, they're trying to squeeze as much as they can out of people so that they can go just be super, super, super rich and do super, super, super rich people stuff. I know a ton of business owners in this industry now. It's not a very flashy crowd. People have nice stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But not for how much they have or could have. Not really in the grand scheme of things. It's really not. Just not, not that flashy.

[B]

Pretty.

[A]

Pretty low key. But how do you. I think the Southeast is really interesting because the wages here are lower than just about anywhere else in the United States.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And just the south in general. Yeah, it's the entire South. Like this market is better than Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana. That's as low as it gets. South Carolina, too.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But not. But then you go up in like the Northeast and the wages will be like three times sometimes in certain situations. And it's union and there's the.

[B]

Yeah. It's also why things don't get built up there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just don't pencil economically.

[A]

Yeah. And so. But I feel like people lose sight of that too.

[B]

It's like it's a happy medium. Yeah.

[A]

How do you, how do you reconcile that? Like the reality that we have to make money because this, all of this requires money to like. Most of the money you're making goes into the company. It doesn't go into your checking account. So you have to make money. But then you want to pay people as well as you can. There's the economic realities and then the desire to give your people what they deserve. You have to be somewhere in the middle.

[B]

You do, you do. I mean, it's a constant tension. And I always feel like in construction, particularly in our, in our industry, our niche, we're always inner readers and recognizing that cost. Like, hey, we knew our excavators, haul trucks, dozers, compactors, went up 30%. Nearly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A year or two period. But man, it takes a long time to really get that to bear out at the bed table. You know, you're really having to fight for those dollars, I feel like. And everybody. I Talk to feels like this, you probably really make a little less than you think you should because one, it's just in our area, it's just really, really competitive. Striking that balance between reinvestment, rewarding the business capital expenditures. Like hey, we would all love to run brand new stuff all the time. It's just, it's not feasible. Like we gotta be good stewards of what we're given to take care of, rebuild some of it, run some of it an applicably long life and support it well. And some of it, hey, turn some of it over pretty quick and put new pieces in the fleet. But you always need to take time and take moments throughout the year. One to in our case, we're giving a lot back. You know, we're giving a pair of Wiley X sunglasses to everybody in the entire company every year. Enough. So we just became our own dealer.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

We give everybody a set of safety toed boots every year. We give them a boot credit every year. And partnered with a local company that provides 60 different brands of boots. We do corporate gift matching. We shut the entire company down into the service day. We paid everybody in the middle of September on a weekday, probably the time here we make our most money and purposely shut it down. Went 26 different places and partnered with nonprofits. And I made it a point at one of the company meetings, we meet three times a year, the whole company. And I said, guys, look, we're paying you to come do this. This is not the day to be off. Don't be off. Like, please come be a part of this. Because you know, this is one of the parts of the core values. Like we're going to live. Like we're giving a millions of dollars in revenue and we're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in payroll. Like this is important. And what you find when you do that, all these stories that bind us as a society and a company, like we went to this home, really if you're a, I'd say a foster child and it's nearby here. And one of my employees came up and he said, man, I never would have thought, he said, if I'd known we were going there, I would have gone. Because he said that's where I grew up.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And like it was just story after story after story. I mean you're not that far separated in this world. And whatever you do, however you can influence in your sphere, influence like you may not be my position in the company. Do everything you can just to take a moment and say thank you and give a Little back. And hey, even if you're not killing it that year, say, hey, look, this is kind of how we're doing right now. I'm giving you what I can and be transparent and genuine about it because there's going to be a season where you can't give squat back, you know, and that's just, that's what it is. Been there, you know. So I think, you know, in the construction business, that's a lot of us, you know, we're going to give everything we can, you know, at the end of the day. And not everybody's going to believe that because that's not popular perception. But on the other hand too, like you do still have to keep the company and the mothership healthy. You know, unfortunately that's business and banking and credit and all those relationships.

[A]

I've never met a single construction business owner that's thought or said or acted in a way that suggests that they're only trying to make more money for themselves. Yeah, I just haven't seen it. And public companies are different, big companies are different. I've seen that happen with big companies, I've seen that happen with public companies. But privately held construction businesses I have never once seen. I need to maximize profit for my gain.

[B]

Yeah, I mean we live in the world of long term return on investment. That's what we build, that's what we live. That's where we have to invest our dollars. You know, you're paying for this excavator for 4, 5, 6 years, however long you choose to finance. And you better run that puppy. Paid for for a little while too. Yeah, that takes a while.

[A]

But I think there's, there's, it's, it's also because there's more than just money. I don't want to, I don't want to be one of the people that downplays money. I think people do that all the time. It's like, okay, so how do you pay your mortgage? With money. Oh, okay. So money, like it's pretty important.

[B]

This is, it's a tool.

[A]

It's a tool. It makes the world go around. Yeah, but I feel like there's other parts of the world that I've previously referenced. It's like making money. That is the game. That is all that there is. It is just make more money, pile it up, up. Whereas here it's like, yeah, we're making money, but we're also building stuff. We're also creating value in the world. We're also providing a service. We're also ensuring that Our communities can have water and sewer and build new manufacturing plants, whatever it is. And so I think it's also due to the fact that there's just more here.

[B]

Yeah. And our industry, we learn, I feel like, quicker and more frequent through. We're sensitive to a lot of things. Weather, economic downturn, clientele, clients and relationships moving around. We're an environment that changes a lot.

[A]

Weather.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And once you realize, you know, that pile per se, you always make more of it. And it can provide you some, you know, day to day comfort, but it doesn't do anything to fix and make you happy here or here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that's, you know, for me, that's more of a faith component. But, you know, however you choose to look at it, you know, plenty of sayings about it, money does not, will never buy you happiness. It can buy you luxury and good food and vacation homes and planes and all that stuff if your goal is to make as much of it as possible. But it can disappear just as easy as it got made. And, you know, relationships and the people in your life, that's what you find you really care about. You know, it's no different than, you know, if you, if you've got a pet like, hey, best feeling in the world's walking in the door and seeing that dog wag its tail, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No money can provide you that.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, or a kid running up to you and giving you a hug or, you know, a good spouse, you know, whatever it may be like, that's why you're really working anyway half the time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why'd you guys start a podcast?

[B]

As we grew and as we put on more people quicker, you know, you've got to find them a. What? Find a way to kind of get them up to your standard quicker, know who you are, and it's a good way to say one thing in a spot in time. And it's almost like a time capsule. I sat down one day and I told the team, I'm like, look, I talk about the core values in our leadership training with all our foremen and superintendents, but I really want everyone to hear the same message. So we did a podcast on each core value. And I sat down and said, hey, this is what it meant to me and my family. This is the expectation here when you come work with us and forever and all time. I've got it now. And it's just trying to make people more relatable to new hires. And you talk to this guy named Wesley that dispatches every day. If you've been here and maybe we hired you in another state and you never met him, but you talk to him every single day, man, you. Maybe you ought to know like who he really is. So that's part of why we did it. Just trying to tell our story a.

[A]

Little more and how has it been received? How's it gone?

[B]

It's gone over really well. I mean, we've got to tell some really cool stories. We've had like a Mother's Day episode.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

And that was super cool. My mom got to come on and talk about some of the stuff I've talked about today. We, we've got. I've got coworkers with their kids now here growing up the business. So, you know, they got. We got to hear plenty of stories about mom that maybe not everybody wanted to know, but that was part of it. You know, it's trying to still try and as we scale to a bigger size, really try and make it like one family. I mean, spend a lot of your life here. You might as well make it worthwhile and care about who you're working with. And no better way to say it. Hey, that's the great part about technology. I can say it one time and it goes on our app and everybody sees it. Not everybody's going to listen to it. But I'm probably going to reach 10 people I wouldn't have reached otherwise.

[A]

Yeah. Which makes it very worthwhile. Even 10 out of 10, however many hundreds. It's like, that's huge value. That's a very good use of time, I think.

[B]

Or it may not work today. I may have somebody that leaves and takes a couple of turns somewhere else or a couple of somewhere else's and decides to come back to us because of some of the stuff they learn about us or know how we represent, you know, I don't know. Just trying to spread that message a couple of different ways, a couple of different platforms. Everybody consumes content a little differently now. So that's one way to do it.

[A]

Well, it's been exciting to follow along with. After this, we're going to go probably with Aaron out to the. Whatever you guys call it. Is there a fun name for it.

[B]

Or is this just the training ground?

[A]

Training ground. You guys need to.

[B]

Yeah, we could coin it probably some other different way. Yeah. Part of Strax.

[A]

I don't know. I'll work on it. I'll workshop that while I'm out there. No, I'm excited to see it. Because I feel like you guys been working on that for quite a while now.

[B]

It's an effort. I mean, it's a lot of time, effort, money and care. And it's not possible for everybody to go do something like that. And at some point, we got to come together as an industry and do this together. But the thing that if you're going to go do it and be genuine, the hard thing to go replicate is the care and the values. And that's what, man, when you start talking about this at a larger place and you're going to have to make some hard decisions and at some point somebody's not going to be here that is a really good person, but may not have aligned with those values all the way. And, you know, that's the hard part about doing it industry wide, I think, is, you know, you could put some of us together and I think we could do well. But you can't put everybody together easily, you know. No.

[A]

And I.

[B]

That's what I struggle to try and figure out. But we need a standard across the industry. I feel like.

[A]

Give me, like, till, I don't know, 20, 35 or so. Yeah, Like, I wanna.

[B]

Yeah, you're gonna figure it out.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just. Yeah, you've been enough places. Like, somebody like you will figure that out. Like us, we're. We're fighting the fight in our world. But, you know, more and more and more of us, I think, are aligning our thoughts in the same way.

[A]

Like, so many.

[B]

Yeah, so many poop boss folks came and visited us and, you know, we're all fighting the same struggles. Like, when I talk to Anthony Garcia, I mean, it's. They are us, you know, talking to them. It's just like, all right, we're doing. We got the same struggles and want the same things. We all want to leave it better than we found it. You know, old Boy Scout motto.

[A]

And I know each culture is different, but I think that's like one of the things I've seen with contractors is they all think they're more special than they are. And it's like you're moving dirt.

[B]

Yeah. We're all like, there's no, like, super secret thing going on.

[A]

There really is not that much different. That's me intentionally oversimplifying. But it's like if you're Building on specifications, GA DOT, you're building the same exact thing. You have to build the same thing. So you can do some things different, but not a lot. There's not.

[B]

There's standard and then there's Technique, you know, and, you know, that was a good, good way Wally phrased it to me one day, and I'm like, man, that's really smart. And he's right. I mean, we're all kind of. We're doing the same thing. We made, have our little idiosyncrasies and do it a little different one way or another. But at the end of the day, you know, pipes going in the ground, dirt's going from point A to point B, getting back and built on in some way, shape or form may be conditioned, but, you know, your differentiator is always your people, how you treat them, your culture. And I think most of us that are, you know, in the upper half of the field, like, man, we just. We want good people to live a good life, leave something behind for our families and our coworkers and leave behind a healthy workplace, you know, at the end of the day, and hope somebody else can pick it up and be a good steward and provide the life we've had, you know, and, hey, leave something behind in this world. That's the awesome thing about all this is, you know, I can walk around the office or drive up the road or whatever, and I can show anybody I know or any family member, man, we worked on this. This is like, really, really cool. We helped make something better.

[A]

Yeah. Well, this worked out quite nicely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm glad I was able to sit down and I've enjoyed it, chat with you finally.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Long overdue.

[A]

Yeah. I don't even know how we initially connected, but it was a few years ago now.

[B]

Yeah. It's been a while.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, like I said, give me a few more years, and once we can figure out the software thing, that's gonna, That'll open up some doors, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think it's something a group like us is like, we've talked about. We're uniquely positioned to do something in this realm because I don't bid against another contractor anywhere.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So. So, like, we, we don't. We don't bid against people. We can move faster than associations can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we're, we're just. We have startup mentality, startup business, which creates its own set of problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we're not, we're not beholden to a specific region under a certain set of guidelines. So it's, it's, it's going to be a. A really fun few years now that we're out of the hole we dug ourselves.

[B]

Yeah. And I think you're going to see more and more ways that public or tax dollars end up helping workforce development in our business, in our industry. So hopefully, I think you'll get some traction. For sure.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. We actually just did get a grant, State of Ohio for something.

[B]

Yeah. More and more of that. I know state of Georgia is in the work for some of that. We just got a tax credit passed where we can help fund construction ready here in Georgia. So, yeah, you can divert some of your state tax dollars to help construction ready. You can do the same with schools as well in the state.

[A]

That's fantastic.

[B]

That was a really big lift. And we've had a scholarship fund for years. What we really need. We really need those dollars directed towards workforce development more than scholarship dollars at this point. And we're all fighting the same fight. And some folks that are starting out, they don't have the bandwidth to do all this. And the ones of us that do and have the ability to do it, if we can help, we should help.

[A]

Yeah. The scholarship thing's good, but the ROI in the grand scheme of things is very low.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's more so to say we give out this amount of dollars as scholarships every year. We feel good, like we're making a difference, like, because I've been the recipient of some of those scholarships, and it's just like, you just. You write a paragraph, and then they. They sometimes just. They just send you the check. Just in the mail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, I was. I was shocked when I got some of these scholarships because it's like, you guys don't, like. It's just like, money in the mail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they just send me. It's like, this is crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, no. Loves track. Hopefully we can see one of your jobs one of these days, but this afternoon we'll get out there and take you out for. Cool.

[B]

All right. Thanks.

[A]

Yeah.