Ames Construction w/ Jerry Ouimet – DT 308

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Episode: Ames Construction w/ Jerry Ouimet – DT 308
Release Date: January 30, 2025
Host: Aaron
Guest: Jerry Ouimet, Leadership at Ames Construction

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Introduction

In episode DT 308 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron engages in an insightful conversation with Jerry Ouimet from Ames Construction. Released on January 30, 2025, this episode delves into the strategic transformations, cultural ethos, and operational excellence that define Ames Construction as a leading player in the Dirt World. Jerry, bringing a wealth of experience from risk management and insurance, shares his journey and the pivotal changes underway at Ames to sustain growth while preserving core values.

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Strategic Shift: From Regional to National Focus

One of the primary discussions revolves around Ames Construction’s significant structural change—from operating within three regional offices to adopting a unified, national framework.

Jerry Ouimet explains, “[...] We have offices. This, we really are one. Ames.” (01:38). This transition was motivated by the need for consistency in both client experiences and internal processes across the company's expansive footprint, spanning 32 to 35 states. By consolidating regions, Ames aims to enhance support for its 3,500 team members, ensuring uniform training, development, and operational standards nationwide.

Aaron reflects on this move, noting, “You'd think as you get bigger, you would split it up more. You would do the opposite,” (04:08), highlighting the unconventional yet strategic approach Ames has undertaken to maintain cohesion amidst growth.

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Maintaining Culture and Family Values

A core theme of the episode is how Ames Construction preserves its family-oriented and humble culture despite its nationwide presence.

Jerry emphasizes, “The company really still is focused on delivering with our field craft team members and they really are the heartbeat and what we run the company with,” (05:50), underscoring the importance of the craft workers to Ames’s identity. He attributes the preservation of this culture to intentional leadership and continuous engagement with the founding Ames family members, ensuring that the legacy and values remain integral to the company's operations.

The discussion highlights the challenge of maintaining humility at scale. Jerry shares, “we try not to read our own press releases. We just get after it and try, try to help people out,” (16:04), illustrating how Ames fosters a genuine, down-to-earth environment that resonates with team members across all levels.

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Support and Development Programs: Elevating the Workforce

Ames Construction places significant emphasis on supporting and developing its workforce beyond the traditional scope of employment.

Jerry discusses initiatives like the Ames Academy, which focuses on leadership development and essential life skills. “We want to be a place that helps you learn all the stuff you should have learned in high school,” (47:18), he states, advocating for comprehensive education that equips team members with financial literacy, relationship skills, and personal development tools.

An example of Ames’s commitment is their program addressing financial well-being. When it was discovered that many team members lacked checking accounts, Ames implemented educational programs to guide them through establishing and managing banking relationships. This proactive approach ensures that employees are well-supported both professionally and personally.

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Safety Culture: Built on Care and Relationships

Safety is paramount in the construction industry, and Ames Construction distinguishes itself by fostering a safety culture grounded in genuine care rather than mere compliance with rules.

Jerry explains, “Most people [...] if you feel connected, if you feel like you belong and they feel the emotional safety that someone actually gives a shit about them and is looking out for them,” (52:04), emphasizing that emotional connections enhance safety protocols. This approach encourages team members to look out for one another, creating a supportive environment where safety is a shared responsibility.

Aaron adds, “I think you all do a very good job of that because that's how like it does feel,” (51:46), acknowledging Ames’s effective implementation of a safety culture that resonates with employees.

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Navigating the Tight Labor Market: Opportunities Over Challenges

Despite the tight labor market, Jerry views it as a significant opportunity rather than a setback.

Jerry shares, “I think the folks who do the work [...] they deserve that. Right. So we love that because we just think the world of them,” (72:24), highlighting Ames’s appreciation for its workforce and their essential role in the company's success. By valuing and supporting their team members, Ames positions itself as an attractive employer, fostering loyalty and attracting new talent eager to contribute to impactful projects.

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Industry Insights: The Vital Role of Construction

The conversation underscores the indispensable role of the construction industry in societal advancement.

Jerry passionately states, “There's no arbitrage without construction,” (26:14), articulating the foundational impact of construction on everyday life—from infrastructure to technological advancements. He urges for greater appreciation and recognition of construction's contributions, advocating for educational field trips and increased visibility to bridge the disconnect between the public and the industry.

Aaron concurs, emphasizing construction's crucial role during disasters and societal rebuilding efforts. “These horrible things happen. These first responders go in right after that or even alongside the first responders are contractors,” (77:47), highlighting the industry's frontline role in crisis response and recovery.

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Operational Excellence: Self-Performing Work and Team Dynamics

Ames Construction’s operational strategy centers around self-performing a significant portion of their work, which grants them greater control over project outcomes.

Jerry notes, “70% of our volume is us building stuff,” (62:23), illustrating Ames’s commitment to internal execution, which enhances quality control and project reliability. This self-reliant approach allows Ames to offer certainty to clients, ensuring projects are completed on time, within budget, and to high standards.

The dynamic between teamwork and individual responsibility is also highlighted. Jerry describes the crew-based approach: “You're working as a team with a crew. Maybe a small crew, maybe a big crew, but you're working with a crew with a shared purpose,” (95:18). This structure fosters a sense of belonging and collective achievement, essential for maintaining high morale and productivity.

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Recruitment and Training: Building the Future Workforce

Ames Construction invests heavily in training and developing its workforce to meet the evolving demands of the industry.

Jerry shares success stories from their training programs, such as new hires transitioning from unrelated fields to skilled construction roles. “Before this, I was working at Walmart, but now I got health insurance. I've got a skill, I've got a career,” (67:56), illustrating the transformative impact of Ames’s training initiatives. These programs not only develop technical skills but also empower employees to achieve personal and professional growth.

The emphasis on early responsibility and accountability nurtures a strong sense of ownership among team members, fostering a workforce that is both skilled and dedicated.

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Conclusion: A Unified Vision for the Future

As the episode wraps up, both Aaron and Jerry reflect on the profound impact of Ames Construction’s work and the company’s unwavering commitment to its people.

Jerry encapsulates the company’s ethos: “We just have to focus on what we need and what's going to help our team members be successful,” (85:03). This focus ensures that Ames not only builds infrastructure but also cultivates a thriving, supportive community for its employees.

Aaron concludes with admiration for Ames’s extensive reach and the tangible legacy they build: “Probably a majority of the United States has been touched in some way by Ames. If you think about the airports, the rail lines, the mines, the power plants, I mean it's a massive impact,” (96:52). This sentiment underscores the essential role Ames Construction plays in shaping and sustaining the nation’s infrastructure.

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Notable Quotes

• Jerry Ouimet: “We really are one. Ames.” (01:38)
• Aaron: “You'd think as you get bigger, you would split it up more. You would do the opposite.” (04:08)
• Jerry Ouimet: “The company really still is focused on delivering with our field craft team members and they really are the heartbeat and what we run the company with.” (05:50)
• Jerry Ouimet: “We try not to read our own press releases. We just get after it and try, try to help people out.” (16:04)
• Jerry Ouimet: “Most people [...] if you feel connected, if you feel like you belong and they feel the emotional safety that someone actually gives a shit about them and is looking out for them.” (52:04)
• Jerry Ouimet: “70% of our volume is us building stuff.” (62:23)
• Jerry Ouimet: “We just have to focus on what we need and what's going to help our team members be successful.” (85:03)

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Final Thoughts

Episode DT 308 offers a comprehensive look into Ames Construction’s strategic evolution, unwavering commitment to its workforce, and the indispensable role of construction in societal progress. Jerry Ouimet’s insights provide listeners with a deep appreciation of how a company can grow expansively without compromising its foundational values, ensuring sustained excellence and a positive impact on both employees and communities nationwide.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, we will. Absolutely. Yeah, we got, we have tons of stuff going on too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And now, I mean, Justin really sees the sights over the whole place. Yeah, that regional office structure was, you know, there's no perfect structure. Right. There's just trade offs. That's what I always try to see. You're just trading one thing for another. So what are you trying to focus on? What are you trying to move forward?

[A]

How many regions are there?

[B]

So we had three regions and now we did away with that.

[A]

Oh, so you did away with the region?

[B]

We did away with our. We have offices. This, we really are one. Aims.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that's really our focus.

[A]

Was that recent?

[B]

That's what I was just announcing this week across the country was going out and explaining that to all of our team members and how's that going to work and why are we doing this? We've been doing it in one way for 60 years, but again, there's no perfect structure. The structure we had, that regional office structure, if you back up and you believe that strategy drives structure, which I think most people can wrap their heads around. Well, the strategy originally for the Ames was this incredible family. These entrepreneurs all in one spot here in Burnsville probably wasn't going to end particularly well if they all stayed there as alpha leaders.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the company for the next 60 years. Right. So, so they did what they needed to do. They expanded geographically. Starting out, you know, going and looking at projects in the Midwest and then from there going out to Denver, doing the airport, opening an office there, then Salt Lake, then Phoenix, and then ultimately in California. And then now out in the Southeast and in Charlotte. So the great part of that structure is we have amazing people coast to coast, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, great clients coast to coast, team members, families feel supported, communities have been made better. But as big as we are and as our clients expectations have evolved because we deal with so many blue chip Fortune 100 customers, as well as the federal government, as well as the DOT partners that we have, it just made sense to bring a little more consistency to their experience, bring a little more consistency to our own team members experience along the way. And the only way to really do that is to pull it back together and weave it together again.

[A]

I see. So you'd think as you get bigger, you would split it up more. You would do the opposite. You'd make more divisions and more, which a lot of companies have done. But bringing it together makes a lot of sense too. There's no right way to do it, I guess.

[B]

Well, critically, you know, we have about 3,500 team members. Overall, about almost 3,000 of them are, you know, the heartbeat of the company, which is the craft workers out there doing the work. So how do we support them? How do we support them no matter where they're at? If we're in 32 to 35 states across the United States, how do we make sure they have everything they need to be successful? How do we work through that? So you do that by having a local presence around the country, but you gotta be driving consistency and training and development and all that other stuff. Can't do it differently in different places.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You got to really pull it together and try to do the whatever works best. It's not. We really work hard to make sure that the answers don't come from here. The questions may come from the corporate office, but the answers don't necessarily come from here. We're trying to pull whatever works best out in the field out for our team members. If you think about the just the responsibilities that foreman superintendent leader has to touch all of our craft workers and workforce, they need a lot of support, they need a lot of help, and we got to make their lives better and make sure they have everything they need to be successful. So we do that. We deliver the work locally across the United States, but we try to do it as. So it feels like one company.

[A]

I think what's interesting with you is your background is you didn't start in a ditch. What is your background?

[B]

Well, yeah, I'm blessed because the Ames family, the founders of the company, they did start working On a farm, doing conservation work, running equipment, fixing equipment, fueling equipment and keeping it going and built this thing. And they're still here. And so the company really still is focused on delivering with our field craft team members and they really are the heartbeat and what we run the company with. And so my background really comes the other way. So I got to know Ames as I was handling all of their surety performance, risk. I was in the insurance and risk business my whole career and working with a lot of large E and R firms across the country and just trying to help them understand the kind of the true risk of the business, not just the insurable part of it, but what's really going on and how to have, you know, find purpose and meaning and manage risk to stay around. Because their corporate cultures, the people, the development, the relationships, all that stuff. So I basically was in that business and worked with the Ames and had a couple different firms. Ultimately transitioned the firm I was with to an employee owned model and then realized that maybe I would go do something else. I didn't know exactly what that was, but Butch kept coming to me and saying, hey, why don't you come, come do this? We need your expertise, we need some leadership. We know how to do what we do, but we need some help on some of these other pieces. Whether that's on the strategy, the perpetuation, the succession, the, you know, how do you, the business, the discipline. You've seen a lot of stuff. How do you, how do you help us get there?

[A]

And I bring that up to your previous point. Like you're not here to tell people how to build stuff. And you know that which I really, which I really appreciate and respect because sometimes somebody will come in, especially like, how long have you been here now?

[B]

I've been here for three and a half years.

[A]

So you're very familiar with the organization. You've worked at the organization for a very long time. But you're still, to some people could be perceived as an outsider in a company that's promoted oftentimes largely within.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so I think sometimes it does not go well at all because you get somebody that has to go prove themselves. But you're the complete opposite. Hey, you all are building just fine. I'm here to support you. I'm not here, I'm not here to tell you how to build a bridge.

[B]

Yeah, I've never lost one minute of sleep worrying that if we could build something, I honestly don't. I mean I have my confidence level and our ability to build anything is kind of over the moon. And so no, we. We do that part as well as anybody. We. That is. That is what drives us. We are builders. You know, even at our volume, you know, 70% plus of the work that we do is. Is us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we don't. You know, there's some complementary subcontracts and relationships that we built over time and certainly, you know, some other partners and things. But. But we build what we take on. And so I know I don't have. That's not my expertise at all. And in fact, when Butch hired me, he said, well, if I need you to do that, to bid a job or to run the equipment or tell me my schedule, then things wrong. Then something's really bad, Jerry. Something's really bad. And so that was what gave me some comfort to come in here, because, I mean, it's very humbling to come in at this level with an organization and. And with this family who I just. I think the world of. They're just an amazing, amazing family. To do what they've done and to build what they've done and the impact they've had on people and families and communities is just coast to coast. It's phenomenal.

[A]

Yeah. And I want to get into that. But your previous life, looking at risk from a construction standpoint, where do contractors get into hot water typically?

[B]

That's a great question. I mean, I think there's a lot of different areas where people can struggle. Right. I think some of it is truly understanding how you fit into whatever market you're trying to fit into. Right. So what is your position? What are you trying to be in that market? Who ultimately is your customer? What do they expect? How does that work? Getting some alignment with that. I think it's pretty common for people to have some level of success and maybe not understand why they had that success. This is a business that is incredibly humbling, too. Right. So whether you have failure or success, you probably learn a little more from your failures than your successes. And when you get successes, then this isn't just true in construction. This can happen anywhere. But you can start to believe your own press releases and think you're somewhat invincible, which is. That's where people struggle. I think ultimately, if they don't have great controls, discipline, understand their cost, and have an ability that they can really not only trust their people, but trust the numbers, trust their process, and be disciplined. The business will humble all of us.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting with Ames, because Ames was built on this legendary family that is legendary for good reason. Good Reasons. Long list of reasons. But is no longer operating the business anymore. And that itself, I think is quite risky going from like. I think the business was really modeled around their personalities. And even as a business grows, I think it can big companies, you can see them modeled around somebody's personality. Like you look at Elon Musk like his businesses are modeled around him. And if you remove that person or the family or whoever's driving that now you don't know who you are anymore. Now you don't have that. Yeah, you lose that sense of self or whatever it is. And it can be a risk. But I think what's been interesting here and as I've gotten to know names is it's still very much like the Ames family and values is still very much rooted in the company even though they're not here day to day anymore. Which is hard to do.

[B]

It is hard. Yeah. And when I talk about that, I think you have to be incredibly intentional at the size that we're at with the workforce that we have and honestly the expectations of our workforce who have been incredibly loyal and hardworking and sacrificed to build this along with the Ames family to make sure I don't disappoint them and that the company is there for them going forward. So you have to be very intentional about that. I think the one concern or question I always get is how are we going to. How are we going to stay a family as those legends step back and they're still here. They are still here. And that's one of the great blessings I have is to still be able to engage with Butch and Mark Brennan and John Ames all the time. And up until earlier this year when Ron passed away, just one of the greatest people I've ever spent time with. And dear friend and leader and mentor. And so they just all were so gift. All are so gifted that it does. It humbles you to be in this spot. I think part of our focus has to be the family. Right. And it continues to be right. We set up all of our decision making to support people and their families because that's. This wasn't. This wasn't. We didn't end up here because somebody in Burnsville, Minnesota had a vision to be a $2 billion or $10 billion or whatever coast to coast civil, highly specialized but diverse civil contractor across the United States and take on the world. It was really about the family at that time. And then giving opportunities to other people to really contribute to society, do cool things, build stuff to make people's lives better and to take care of people's families along the way and make sure they knew that and were part of it.

[A]

But how do you, like, what's the nuts and bolts of maintaining that sense of humility? Because there's companies out there, not even just in construction, but they, they become good and they know they're good. They're fully aware that they're good. I don't, I don't. I've. I've been to enough AIM sites now or. That's not at all the perception, which is the most surprising thing about aims is because it's like I go out to these AIM sites, you would think it's a local contractor, which is crazy because it's, it's not. And so like, like, how, how do you do that? Because it's. I, I feel like I haven't seen it very much at this scale. It's, it's. I don't want to say it's easy to do, but it is easier to do when you're smaller. Cause you can. More easy, but you can get your arms around the business a little bit more or when you're in three states, you know, and you can, you can get to every job every once in a while and you can communicate more effectively. But how do you maintain that sense of humility with a footprint and the size of everything?

[B]

Now, I think that really comes from the family themselves. And even though there is a confidence and a swagger to our teams when they do the work, this business has humbled everybody. And so I think, yeah, we try not to read our own press releases. We just get after it and try, try to help people out and again bring solutions along the way to partners and customers and to our team members. And I don't know, it's in the DNA. There honestly is. We call it like a pixie dust that happens when you're at Ames for a while, that the people who are here and part of the family, it's just different. It really is hard to explain it. I'm not trying to be obtrusive at all. It really is hard to explain. It's a special, special place. I can't think of another. And I'm probably limited because I'm so focused in construction and always have been because I just have. It's such a noble business and I think it just adds so much and it's so underappreciated, the sacrifice and work. Right. So I've always been drawn to it. You know, we've had this conversation before. It just blows My mind, the things that get built and the people that do it, it just is. It's amazing. Right. So I'm just total fanboy on that part. All my whole life have been. And so. But when you get to the people who are here, they want to build, they want to put their shoulder in it, they want to achieve, they want to get it done, they want to bring solutions, they want to make things better, and then they want to do it again somewhere else. And so when you say, you know, it has a local feel, we do. We feel local everywhere, I think, yeah, it's just a different. It's just a different feeling. I can't really explain I.

[A]

And I asked that because I can't explain it either. I don't know what the heck it is. It's just. It really is different. And I haven't been everywhere. I haven't seen everything, but I see a lot of construction companies. And at that, I think. I think what you said the first meeting that stuck with me when I. When I met you the first time, was that as you get bigger, it becomes easier and easier to enforce, like to run the company based on a rule book and rather than a culture. Because a culture is very difficult to maintain and grow at this scale. And it's quote, unquote, easier to give your leaders a rulebook and just say, here's the rules. All you have to do is just follow the rules and you're good to go. But then that is extremely limiting because then you're in a box and you can't go outside the box. But I think it's because there's a legitimate Ames culture.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I think a lot of every company says they have a culture, and every company does have a culture. But I feel like as companies get bigger, it just gets more and more sterile. There's not as much of a. You can't feel it. It's just a corporation, a company. This is our name. Here's the rules. This is the work we do. Cool.

[B]

Brand X, Y and Z. Right?

[A]

Brand xyz. Yeah.

[B]

And, yeah, that's great memory because maybe that is part of the benefit of having the background that I had is I had the blessing of working with some amazing, amazing companies that grew from kind of relatively good regional positions to being national firms. Right. And so you go through that growth curve, and along the way, everybody has to make some decisions as to how they're going to manage the risk, the growth, the expectations, the people, all that stuff. And by imposing governance on an organization, I think that's the easiest answer, but it has its own cost. And maintaining culture and trust and focusing on the people as humans and the nobility of what we do. And it is. It's harder. But to me, there's not another option. Right. That's just who we. And that's the beauty of me coming to Ames is it already was this. And so my job was to. Just to make sure we didn't lose any of that at all in my transition. And the transitions that we've in growing further as we go into new markets, all that. Like having seen people maybe lose their way a little bit and become really overly focused in governance for good reasons. In a lot of cases, they had to manage risk. They had to drive their own strategic plan and survive along the way. But there's a cost to doing that. Right.

[A]

It takes a sense of courage to. I think as you get bigger and more established, there's more forces trying to pull you away from what got you there in the first place. And I think it does also take a degree of courage to say, no, we know what's right. We know what got us here. We're going to stick with that. And again, it's easier said than done. But even as we're only seven years into it. But I've even seen this, where there's this. There's these forces that start to. Well, if I want to work with this customer, I need to have maybe this tone or we need to fit their mold to cater to them. And I think there is part of that. I think you do have to play the game a little bit to get in with certain companies. But I think there's also an element where you do have to. If you don't push back, you're just going to get pushed around even as a giant company. Because there's always somebody bigger.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

Like if you're working for the federal government. The federal government's a lot bigger than Ames.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And usually what I found is that as long as we can explain why we operate a certain way and why we do a certain thing, I. What the motives and the goals are in alignment with what we're trying to do. It's just maybe we go about it a little differently. Sure. You know, I mean, we've, you know, our whole thing about working in harmony with nature, which is how the company was founded, you know, we're going to do the right thing anyways when it comes to the environment and how we do things and trying to get better and more efficient and footprints and all that stuff with how we operate, but in the past, maybe we didn't track everything, and so you just got to go do that. So, again, we figure out how to do that and just continue to do the right thing along the way. Right. And so I don't know if there's a perfect way to do any of those things. We just try to feel our way through it and make sure that we're doing what feels right to us. We talk a lot about the world has. There's a lot of. We live in a world that really tries to divide and label things, and we're just trying to be who we are and bring it all together and celebrate that. To me, that's what a family should feel like, should not let itself get divided and should not label each other. We should really just try to understand and support each other in the process and just make sure everybody feels like they belong, everybody's included, and that we're all in this together. Right. And so we spend a lot of time talking about how do we do that? How does it feel for our team members? How do we help them through their. Whatever issues they're going through? Because, again, there's a lot easier ways to make money than construction, and there's a lot easier ways to make a living than construction. But the people who are passionate about it, they deserve to be celebrated and they deserve to be supported.

[A]

And there are easier ways to make money and do that, because I've seen a bunch of them, but I haven't seen the pride at this level anywhere else. And I know in your prior life, even maybe current life, you probably see other people in other industries that are very successful, quote, unquote. I've been around them my entire life. But then I found construction, and it just. I just. This is it. Because there's this intense sense of pride in what these people. And it's like there's these other people with a ton of money, but they made it by, like, trading paper around or whatever it is. They can't. They can't really explain, like, the impact that they've made on the world or show their family the impacts they've made on the world. They can just show the house or whatever it is, whereas anybody in this world has a direct sense of what they do, why they do it. And that is so. It's so present in everybody within this world, which is, I think, super attractive.

[B]

I would agree. I think there's a tangible nature, but also, I mean, just think of what we would be without construction, right? We've been wandering trails, living in caves.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So again, all the advancements in those areas that then allow other advancements. Right. So even the people trading papers back and forth and arbitrage, you know, making their money however they do that. Yeah, they're probably in a building, they're probably driving on a road. They're probably, you know, using the power plant. They go to the hospital building, they go to the library. However they got there, they owe some part of it to construction.

[A]

There's. There's no arbitrage without construction.

[B]

There's no, there's no, really no anything without construction.

[A]

There isn't.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and it's been around a long, long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and it's made great improvements in a lot of lines. And so it's part of the real advancement in our society. And I just, you know, I guess my ask would be if people see orange cones or, you know, a work site or a reroute that they try to mentally even celebrate that instead of kind of curse their phone that, you know, oh my gosh, they're working on this road again. Well, thank God someone's working on this road again and making it better. And I'm sure as an industry, we could probably do a better job on some of the logistics of those things. So it wasn't quite so disruptive. But it would be nice if people just appreciated the work that got done to improve their life along the way.

[A]

Well, I think the industry can do a much better job and I think it's improved dramatically since I started doing this, but of just telling its story. Like I talked to mining about this because it's even more stark. You guys were mining. So you see this. It's like, hey, we're getting bullied right now. No one is coming to save us. There's no one that's going to stand up for us. So until we stand up for ourselves and punch the bully in the mouth, for lack of a better term, our situation is only going to. Is not even going to stay the same, just going to continue to degrade. So at what point is enough, enough? You know, how many swirlies do we need in the toilet? You know, how many times do we need to get bullied to finally say enough? This is actually what is. What is. This is the glue of society and it's the opportunity that we're trying to seize. But it's also frustrating at times to hear people in the industry complain about the perception. It's like, well, how do you think it's going to change. Do you think it's just going to change? No, we need to talk about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And a lot of that, I'm sure, is motivated by other interests and things. So in the end, most of the stuff we have comes out of the ground at some point. So how do we do that? Well, how do we work in harmony with what's there? How do we be good stewards so we leave it better than we found it. That's all stuff we can all get better at. But I agree, I think people are fundamentally maybe disconnected from the reality of some of that stuff. And it wouldn't hurt anyone, I think, to see more field trips for school age kids to go see a mine and understand, work on some amazing copper mines in Arizona and just go see what that process really looks like. And then where does the copper end up? And that's what charges your iPhone. And I mean, it all works together, but it all has to work together for it to work.

[A]

Well, I could visit the White House faster than I could visit some of those copper mines in Arizona. But we're getting there.

[B]

Yeah, we're getting there.

[A]

We're wearing them now. I think Ames is really cool too, because I really feel like it is as American success story as it gets. Some guy with nothing risks it all, buys a bulldozer and starts doing bulldozer stuff with a wife and children at home. It's just like. And from nothing to this in a lifetime is extraordinary, especially because it's in a lifetime. It's so incredible. And I think that's what draws me in so much too, because it really is like we have all these famous American success stories, Henry Ford and Steve Jobs and whatever it is. But if you like, a lot of people don't know the Ames story, never heard of Dick Ames. They have in the industry, but outside the industry. But as far as American success story is concerned, within this generation, past generation, it's as good as it gets. It's phenomenal.

[B]

And maybe the biggest piece of that, whether it was during the difficult times when everything can turn against you, whether it was during the good times when everybody needs their share of success and accolades, the family stayed together. And that's the part that makes it to me a one in a billion. Because even though some family members went off and started incredibly successful companies on their own because they were ready to and the opportunity existed, everybody still gets along. I mean, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, weddings, funerals, everybody gets along. Everybody's there. There really are no rifts. It's an amazing, amazing Family. And, you know, back to Dick. I mean, Dick had a saying all the time that was, well, it's easy to take risks when you have nothing to lose. But, I mean, it was just built into his DNA to be. To take the risk and have the confidence that the team would make it happen. And we still have great confidence. Again, I don't lose an ounce of sleep with our teams to build.

[A]

Why do you think the family did stay together? Because there's a lot of stories. I'm thinking of a few in my head right now. I don't need to talk about them. But big families in the construction industry that hate each other, or there's three companies all with the same name, all in the same market, that's. That don't talk to each other like, why? How did they stay together?

[B]

Because family was the number one thing. And they all agreed. And it's still. I mean, it is still that way. I mean, we just registered our trademark for Fueled by Family, which is this place is fueled by family. And it's fueled by the family. The Ames who started it and grew it and built it, but they care so much about every person here and every person's family because, again, this is a hard business. Right? You can't just be a craft worker out there doing this. You're doing it for a reason. You're usually doing it for your family and your family hopefully supports that and feels a part of it. So everything we do is built around that. Whether that's how we design our benefits, how we do our communications, how we focus and prioritize, where we go chase work. Again, how does that fit our team members? Is that going to support them? Are they going to want to be there? Is this going to create an opportunity? All those things. And so it's just, again, that's wired into the organization all the way through. So it is all about family. Even though with 3,500, 4,000 team members, that's a lot of families. And we wake up every day knowing our job is to make sure that their lives are better and we support them in the process. So it really does drive what we do, how we do it. And it is our why it feels.

[A]

Too like you all haven't forgotten. I don't come into this. Sometimes you go to the corporate office and it's like that's the most important part of the business. I don't at all get the impression of that here. At the same time, I don't think you all have at all forgotten that. No, it's Actually, whoever's out in the field pounding those hubs or making that subgrade, pouring that concrete, they're the ones that make the whole thing work.

[B]

They do all of it. Yeah. This company was built by them. And it's so simple. Our job is just to support them and make sure they have everything they need because they're doing the hard stuff. And so, yeah, again, that's in the DNA of the company. And that's when your boss drove a dozer.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then worked on it at night and made sure it was fueled in the morning and ready to go and did that six, seven days a week and did his own estimates. I mean, that's in the DNA. So none of us who are in the kind of administrative support lose sight of that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I wish I was able to beat Dick, Ron. I wish I was able to spend time with those guys. I've been able. I've met Larry.

[B]

Yeah. Great, great person.

[A]

As good as it gets.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

As good as it gets.

[B]

He's a great gentleman and an amazing business person. A great family man.

[A]

Yeah. But, but I think what's so impressive too, like, again, about the Ames family and like Larry specifically is he knows what he's good at. He just does what he's world class at, which is move dirt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Run the business, Ron. Run the business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't have it. I don't. I'm. If, if you need me for a key decision, I'm here. But you run the company. I'm going to go move dirt better than anybody else. And it works so, so well. It's like, it's the perfect. I see so many companies struggle because one person's trying to do everything, especially in construction at a certain size, the business is very different than the field. It is two different skill sets. And very rarely have I seen, if ever have I seen one person do it all extremely well. And I think he's the perfect representation of being super comfortable and confident to say, this is what I'm good at. This is all I want to do. This is all I'm going to do.

[B]

Well. And I think every day he lives, I mean, that's his best day, right, Is to be with the people he wants to be with, doing what he wants to do, and he's great at it. He's just world class at it. It's another amazing success story of this that comes out of this family and is part of the DNA. And, and again, an incredible humble servant leader that just does the right thing every time. And leads a great organization.

[A]

I have no idea what the numbers are, But I don't think there's anybody moving dirt cheaper than he is. More efficiently, certainly.

[B]

Yeah, he's phenomenal.

[A]

It's as good as I've seen.

[B]

There's not a lot of wasted effort there.

[A]

No, there's none. It's ruined scraper spreads for me Because I compare it to Bemis every time. I'm just like, ah, it's just not Bemis.

[B]

To. I guess to a keen eye, it's like watching a great performance of whether it's a sports team or a ballet or whatever. I mean, it is. It's an art.

[A]

Oh, it's intoxicating to watch. Yeah. Everybody knows their position. And it just. There's not a single wasted movement in that entire operation. And I could just sit there with a camping chair and watch all day. It's as good as any sports game I've ever seen. It's amazing.

[B]

That is exceptional.

[A]

Yeah. If you can't tell, I'm like, I'm a big Ames fan. I just.

[B]

We appreciate that. We're big fans of Buildwith.

[A]

Well, I appreciate that. Like, I think I told you this before, but it was. I was in Arizona. Very familiar with Ames. Anybody in construction in Arizona familiar with Ames? Because Ames has been there for quite a while now.

[B]

Yeah. Since early 80s.

[A]

Yes. Okay. So a long time. And I worked for some other contractors around there. But then the 202 project kicked off. And you all were. With granite and floor. I think it was tri venture there. And that was actually the first job. I don't know if it was Ames Cruise. I don't think it was. I think it was granite Cruise. I was filming. But I would take pictures of that project that was starting to kick off. And those were. That's how I started. That's how I got the first photographs to post on Instagram. I would just park my car on the side of the road, take pictures of the scrapers. Whatever it was. D10s. It was a big job.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

I'd never seen anything like it. And then I knew you guys were cutting through the mountain there. South mountain. Because they had to do some clever stuff. The alignment and there were some pretty big rock cuts there. And I knew you guys would be blasting. And I knew it was a big quantity. I was following it. I didn't know anybody on the job, But I was around enough to know what the heck was going on. So then I moved to Texas. I tell my girlfriend, hey, at the time, I need to Go out there on my own, which was. I thought that was the right move at this time. And I was surprised at the outcome at the time by like, go figure. Imagine that going over well. But I remember telling her, I'm like, listen, I'm going to go out here for a little bit. Then I'm going to come back. I'm going to go work for ames because they're blasting. I have blasting experience as a young engineer. There's not many people young engineer blasting experience. So I can probably get a job with ames. And I remember that was my plan. I was going to move back to Arizona in a year and work for ames. But I ended up moving back to Arizona in eight months. But to work for myself, live with my parents again and do my own thing.

[B]

It would have worked out either way. But yeah, sounds like it worked out really well.

[A]

Well, it worked out for her. She found the right one, got married. But. But yeah, I ended up not going to work for ames. But that was my. That was my plan. And then funny enough, I. You know, about six months into build wit, a year into buildwit, I got connected with Connect 202, their media team and went out to see that cut. I think you guys had nine 9 2s out there on a civil job, which is. It was basically a mining job to move that much rock. It was awesome. It was just so cool to see.

[B]

It is cool.

[A]

So I got out there. But to take pictures.

[B]

You lived your dream. You got there.

[A]

Something like that, right? Yeah.

[B]

It's a great story and. And we love being a part of it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I wish I was a part of ames for at least a little bit, but didn't get me. What you coming. You knew the organization but you assuming this role, what's been surprising to you or what have you had to learn?

[B]

Had to learn a lot. Yeah. I mean I think that, you know, it's a little like. And I'm not a fan of sports analogies, but this one probably makes sense in that, you know, in some ways I was, you know, I was up in the. In the suite watching the players play the game. But as you really get on the field and you really understand what the challenges, opportunities, opportunities, personalities, needs, wants, dreams are of team members on the field, I think it makes you a better leader. Right. So getting to know our team members, getting to really understand their challenges and what they need. Again, there's easier ways to make a living. Right. But the people who are in it are passionate and love doing it and this is what they want to do and they want to build. And so that was probably really understanding that at a human level. I think I'm a reasonably empathetic person, really trying to help others. But there's some challenges for every one of our team members out there and trying to how can we help them, how can we support them, how can we make their lives better so that they can do what they need to do and what they want to do in life and achieve what they want to achieve? And that, that's, that isn't a me thing. That's. I mean, Butch Ames has done that, Dick Ames, they've always believed that and run that and that that's why that was probably the easiest part of the transition was, you know, caring for the team members is just, it's just first and foremost, right? This has never been about getting big or making a gob of money or, you know, building some giant legacy. It really is about the people and the families. And so that just resonated. So that made it easy. There's just so much I don't know about lots of aspects of the business. But I do know, I think I do understand people and I do know how to build relationships and understand people's capabilities. I believe we're all gifted in something and we all are unique creatures here with a purpose. And so as you help people, try to find that and figure it out. That's what gets me out of bed, is trying to help our team members and help them develop as people and try to help this industry really realize how amazing it is.

[A]

How do you stay connected when there's thousands of people spread out in 30 states? How do you stay connected with people?

[B]

Well, so we talked a little about our service awards where we go out and we recognize years of service with our coworkers. We try to go out to the job sites and do that. We try to be. I try to get out to a couple projects every month across the United States. Just thank our folks, just be there, listen, see what their challenges are, how we can help, what we can do and really encourage all of our. Anybody who's not on a project to be out with the team members. We actually did a kind of a cool program this last year. We partnered with Red Wing and gave boots away to everybody who was kind of in more of a kind of a non craft wall. We had another program for some of our craft folks, but basically put on some boots and get understanding. Right, because your boots are really your understanding. Sure. That's a bad grandma. Joke that she used to always make. I was outstanding in my field. Right. I'm alone out in the woods. But. But getting folks out and truly understanding what our team members need, and that's gone really, really well. I think no matter what position anybody in our company's in, they need to connect with our folks that are doing the work, and they need to understand what their challenges are, how they can help them. I'll give you an example. Our CFO went out, talked to some of our team members, and realized a lot of them, they didn't really have checking accounts. Right. They hadn't. I mean, they just, for whatever reason, in kind of their own life planning, didn't have checking accounts and didn't really understand that process, what that looked like. Maybe didn't have a bank relationship. So he put together a whole program, education pieces, how to help people understand how that works. And just so they could generate some savings so that they. You know, Ames have always been incredibly generous with profit sharing and taking care of team members along the way, but just making sure that people have things along the way and they can. We don't want to be too paternalistic, but we also want to help people so they have something along the way.

[A]

Well, even with money, though, it's like most people have just never learned those basic skills they don't have. You pulled someone off the street and asked, how does a mortgage work? No way. Like nine out of 10 people probably have no idea how a mortgage works, how a 401k work. Probably no idea. And it's not that they're dumb, it's just they've never. Where would they have learned it? Did their past employer explain it? Probably not. Did they learn in school? I know for sure they didn't. Their parents probably don't understand how their mortgage works. They didn't learn anywhere.

[B]

Yeah, I think. And some of that. I mean, we should all ask ourselves why no one teaches us how to be healthy and make good choices there. How to.

[A]

Well, I know.

[B]

Good relationship.

[A]

There's a lot of money there. There's a lot of money to make.

[B]

To save money and not be dependent on, you know, we should all ask.

[A]

Ourselves why I don't want you to know how to manage your money because I can do it for you. I know. I know the tricks.

[B]

So. So that the. The thing we talk about here, we have a. We have a whole Ames Academy for our folks and leadership development. And, you know, because, you know, just a lot of. I hate the word soft skills, but a lot of just People, relationship skills. Right. And knowing who we are as individuals so that we can relate well to others, understanding them in the process so we can communicate and connect. But one of the things we always talk about, Aaron, is that we need to be a place that helps you learn all the stuff you should have learned in high school. So I would love if we could get the high schools to kind of focus on some of these really core skills.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where people do struggle and they find struggles in their life because maybe they weren't equipped along the way or given exposure to some of that stuff. But we're just trying to tackle it at this point, I think.

[A]

And people say it with good intentions, but I think it's kind of a cop out. Oh, they should teach it in schools. And then they just move on. I hear that so many times over. It's like, great. I think they should, too. I agree. Yeah. But they didn't like, let's talk reality here. So, one, are you lobbying for them to. Okay. Cause if you are, okay, wow, you are. But two, even if you are, it's not gonna happen, you know, anytime soon. You have the workforce, you have. You know what their knowledge base is. If you don't do it, who is? But then. But I think that is also an enormous competitive advantage from a recruiting standpoint. If I can, like, I've really had this shift as a leader and with our people and our company and where we want to go. If I can make people better people, if I can teach them those skills and give them the ability to be a little bit healthier, to save a little bit more, to go buy a house, to not be an alcoholic anymore, whatever it is, I don't know what it is. It could be one or it could be all the above. If I can help them do that, we're good to go. If I can figure out how to make that repetitive. But it's one size fits all. But if you can build a system for it, you'd really have to screw it up to not create something special. If you get that figured out.

[B]

Yeah. I think one of our team members explained their thoughts on kind of why Ames is special and different as. Because people care and they care about each other. So if you just care and you care about each other, you're going to make different decisions when you interact with people. And if you know what they're going through, you might have to ask them three or four times to get to the right answer. But do it right. Spend the time. It doesn't take any more to Be kind. Doesn't take any more to be interested in people's lives. Just, just spend the time to do that and then you can make a difference. Right.

[A]

I think this extends to safety too. We were just on a call and Randy was talking about how people have a pretty acute bullshit meter. I think people are a lot smarter than people give themselves. Give like people, it's common, like, oh, people are idiots. This and that. No, I don't think so. I think people are very, very intelligent, very perceptive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's where I struggle with safety a lot of times because it's, we care about you, so do this. But I, I, I know it's not coming from a place of care. And it's like, I've said this a lot. It's like, I would rather you just be honest with me and just say it's a rule because somebody over here got hurt. We think it's so, so just, it just is what it, like, I'd rather, I'd rather them say that than say, and it might like it's coming from a good place. I don't think people are out to like, yeah, it's, you know, this and that. But I, but you can kind of tell when somebody cares or when they don't. And I, in my short time in construction, I was much more motivated and working much more efficiently and more safely when I knew whoever I was around me cared for me and then I genuinely cared for those around me. But then I also knew when I was being told to do something while we care about you just go, do you do this? But then it creates then like this resentment because it's like, I know that's not true. And I can tell, I know this is just. And I feel like you all do a very good job of that because that's how like it does feel. Like there's this legitimate sense of care within the field, within people. And I've heard companies talk about this like, I'm a believer that those are the best kind. That's the best kind of safety program. You can have a phenomenal culture with people that care about one another. That is the world class safety program.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

But that is, it's hard.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so then the rule book is the right. And I know you have to have the rules, you know the rules. It's not like, it's not a binary thing. But I think if your safety program, instead of built on enforcement is built on care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Way more effective and way more enjoyable.

[B]

Well, I don't think you can get to a great safety program with rules. Yeah, I think you have to have rules, but that's just not enough. I mean, truly, people will look out for each other if they feel connected, if they feel like they belong, if they feel the emotional safety that someone actually gives a shit about them and is looking out for them. Most people. I still haven't found anybody that wants to show up and do a bad job or get hurt.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. So if you flip that and everybody wants to do a really good job and be safe, then let's just do that and let's just help each other do that. And a lot of it you find is maybe people who are new or new to the people who are new and new to Ames. We just have to go the extra mile and just make sure they really understand that. Because again, I think for good reason, many of them haven't experienced that before at other employers. So they may be skeptical, which is fine. And they may push a limit once in a while to see if anybody really does, which is normal. But how do we overcome that? How do we make sure they feel connected, that they feel like they belong and they're supported in the process? And again, we're trying to be an island of sanity and just feel like a family, like a really healthy, functioning family where we can all rely on each other, we can all care about each other, and we all celebrate each other along the way.

[A]

Isle of Sanity is a good way to put it because it does feel like with you, all the priorities. Building stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like there's some stuff out there that it's like. It's just. It's forgetting that the point is building stuff or the mining is big on this too. It's like. It's hard for me to see mining in messaging about mining, but it's like, hey, environmental, really important people, really important. Safety, really important. But at the end of the day, the business is making big rocks into small rocks, picking the rocks up, putting a new in a truck, smashing those rocks up, and pulling the good stuff.

[B]

Out of the rocks.

[A]

Can we talk about that too? Let's talk about it.

[B]

All pretty critical to what we're doing.

[A]

It is what pays the bills.

[B]

And we are builders. And so like I said before, 70% of our volume is us building stuff and leaning into it and making it happen. And so for a firm our size, that's really high. Right? I mean, very few are probably higher than that. But that's again, the mentality, the DNA of the organization is to Be builders. And so the things we try to recognize and make sure that we're managing our way through are the things that keep us from doing that. Right. So I always did the stand in our gears is the friction that causes us to be in a position where we can't build. Right. So whatever that is, that maybe, maybe it's the owner isn't quite ready, maybe their relationships with their. Whether the inspectors, the advisors, the designers or something are slowing the process down. So part of our mentality has to be, well, how can we help them so that we can go build stuff? So then there's a long list of all the things that are friction. Okay, how do we fix those? Because in the end, we just want to go build stuff. It's what you said, because we really just want to go build it. So how do we help you with this so we can go build it? How do we help them with that so we can go build it? How do we help. Whether it's, you know, the unions and the labor partners, like, we think that's awesome. We love our labor partners and our labor strategy, our union partners. How do we help them be better? How do we help them be a better resource for the workforce out there? Right? Because that's the only way we're going to keep people coming into this business, having a wonderful career, retiring, having good benefits, being able to buy a new pickup truck, have a house, go to get a cabin, do all that stuff that they deserve for the hard work that they did along the way. And so we need our partners to all be part of that. But instead of us sitting and fighting them or accepting the friction, okay, what can we do to help them through that process? How do we make them better?

[A]

Which is common sense. Like, none of what you just said is groundbreaking. Like, you'd think that that's how it typically works, but it can become so adversarial, which has always been really confusing to me. And every time I'm asked like, hey, I'm a young engineer or whatever it is, getting started in the industry, what can I go learn? How to communicate, how to listen, how to lead? If you can figure that stuff out, everything else pencils out, like, why? Why are we fighting with the engineer? We all have the same goal to build the job. So if I can go help them with what they need, which will then keep you have or inspector. Like, I think that's where Peter Kiewit really figured it out. Within one of the books I read was, hey, could they have just fought with every inspector 100%. Because when they were building these barracks, all the inspectors were looking for different things. So then, well, hey, what if we go pay people to get to know the inspectors and figure out what each inspector is looking for and then have them work ahead of the inspectors to say, hey, this guy is a stickler with doors, so you need to fix this, this, this to get everything. It's like, yes, it's common sense, but more often than not, it's, this inspector sucks. It's like, what does that accomplish? That doesn't get anything done.

[B]

Yeah, we try to really avoid any of the adversarial or litigative kind of pieces of this and again, try to partner with everybody in the process because you're going to get a lot more done and we're going to get to go build it. So none of the other supporting casts, and we don't assume we do everything perfectly either. But there's a lot of variables. There's a lot of risk items in construction. Right. So there's a lot of things that can happen, go wrong, unknowns, all that stuff. So can we just partner our way through this stuff? Can we just talk about it? But there is a whole segment of the industry, a whole kind of cottage industry built around being adversarial and divisive. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that serves them. But when we just choose to kind of do our thing again. And so how do we. And I think the more that exists, the more, like you said, more attractive it is for us because the people who just want to go build stuff and get along and make it better, and we don't really care who gets credit in the process. We just want to go build it and keep our folks going.

[A]

I'm grateful I'm the son of an attorney because I got to see some of the tricks, and I learned that the attorneys are the only ones that win. The house always wins, and the house is the lawyers. They're walking away just fine, no matter the outcome. And, and so the more you can prevent that, like, you can't, you can't get rid of it. It's just a reality of business. But the, but you can, like, you don't have to go get into every fight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I, I, I've seen a lot of contractors that just love to litigate, and it's like, hey, the job's not litigating, the job's building. And I know stuff happens, so on and so forth. It's a reality. But there's contractors that steer clear of it as much as they can. And they're much better off for it because they're not. Just even if you are right, the cost of proving that you're right is sometimes so much more significant than just saying, what do we need to do to meet in the middle here? And then let's keep going.

[B]

Well, there's definitely things that are, are worth fighting for. Sure. And there definitely are a list of things that everybody's going to fight over. But in the end, you got to decide, is this about being right or wrong or is this about winning and losing? And how do you define winning? How do you define right? You got to really get into the words of this and what they mean to everybody. Unfortunately, the English language has so many limitations. Right. I always tell our folks, you know, I love my wife, but I love that cheeseburger that I just had. You know what I mean? So the words are so limiting. Right? So let's really define what win is. Let's talk about that. Because to us, to win is to keep our folks going to build it and to keep the owner happy and make the community bad. You know, like fighting over this isn't good for that. And if you kind of keep this mental image that, yeah, the lawyers, they're going to do what they do, but at the end of the day, they all go play squash together and, and yuck it up and it's gonna work out for them either way. So what about the community? What about our workforce? What about the people who are relying on this project along the way? Let's try to get that part done. And luckily the industry has evolved in the delivery methods along the way that have helped some of that, whether it's progressive design, build construction, management at risk, CMGC stuff, you know, and we've, we've built a really nice resume and capabilities around all that stuff because we believe in the end we can partner through the process, help build a great project and take away some of the kind of all the risk and uncertainties along the way, align our interest with our customers and, and build, build a great project on time, under budget, make it all happen.

[A]

Oh, which is where self performing such a big percentage is a big advantage because then you can control a vast percentage of the process and the schedule and really effectively build the project. Because you're the one building it, you're not relying on others.

[B]

Right. In the end, we sell certainty. So the certainty is we will show up, we will get it built. Sure. So anybody, I don't care if you're getting a kitchen remodeled, you're trying to get your bathroom redone or you're building a billion dollar building or you're trying to respond to hurricane damage. Someone wants that thing done, right? They wouldn't sign up and go through the hassles of this. They probably don't have the expertise to do it themselves, which is why they're looking to someone like us to come in there. The most frustrating thing in any construction project is are they going to show up and is it going to get done on time? Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What will the level of communication be? Do I trust them? What's the commitment level? Do they seem to have the right resources? Are there great quality? Is the safety? Right. All those things. Are they going to, are they gonna do it the way I would do it for myself or my grandkids? Right. Are they gonna build it that way to that quality, that sustainability and resilience. So we try to solve that upfront. Right. And that's the beauty of, that's why we self perform is because we can control so many parts of that. I mean we will show we also have one of the largest equipment fleets in the country. Right. And we mobilize that thing, you know, constantly. Let's just go, let's get it done. And again, one of the frustrations for us can be a long schedule. Something like a really long schedule. We have a client that we were working for down in the southern part of the United States where they don't have this, this thing that's coming around here which is called frost and road restrictions, freezing weather and you know, I mean everything has to get done here by a certain date. Right. So it creates a schedule, schedule pressure, naturally. But if someone said you got four years to build the job, our reaction usually is would you be okay if we did it in two? Can we just get it done? Because four years we're going to get. We just want to get it built. Can we just get it built? Can we figure out how to do that? Would that help you? That's just in the Ames mentality. Can we just get this done and move on?

[A]

I would love to. And you all probably have. Well, I don't know. I would love to see average production rates by state because there's some states that I have a hunch are way slower than other states and for different reasons.

[B]

For different reasons.

[A]

Every time I'm in because I grew up like first job, pipe crew, Phoenix, Arizona, me and a bunch of Mexican guys that I was 18 years old, these guys were twice my age, more than twice my age. I could not keep up at 100%. I don't know how they work the way they do. I just. I tried as hard as I could. I could not meet their just furious pace. And that was what I came. That was what I got used to. And there's no. There's no weather pressure. But I don't know what it is. But it's. It's just. We've gotta go, man. It's had this, like, urgency. Get on with it. And then I go to the south. You know, we're building the job. We're going to lay some pipe today. And I'm not saying that's everybody, but it's like, it's. The overall vibe is definitely, definitely different. It is. The urgency that is in other places is not in some regions.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure there are differences. I think we just try to bring our pace well in our.

[A]

Which is what I was going to say. Your production rates probably aren't that different because it's the same company. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And we just. Again, it's. Let's just get it done.

[A]

Which is. It was funny when you guys first mobilized out to North Carolina. There's people talk in this world like little kids talk on the playground. It is so funny, all this. And I'm like, I'm an insider on a lot of stuff, and so I'll hear stuff. It's like, where'd you hear that? Like, they're selling. Like, no, I just talked to them or whatever it is. So it was funny. They like, who are these Ames guys? Because east of the Mississippi at that point, no one knew who Ames was. And it's funny, a company, this industry is oftentimes so regional and so siloed that you can have these multi billion dollar organizations that no one's ever heard of in a different state. You know, you can go one state over. I don't know who they are. So 1. Who are these guys? And they're bringing what they're bringing. Bringing scrapers. Like, I can't wait for this to see this. And I would just respond like, hey, I think they'll be okay. Like, there may be some learning curves. Yep. The moisture is going to be a little higher than they're typically used to, but they're going to be just fine. I'm not stressed out for them.

[B]

Yeah. We showed up with triple sevens. I don't think they'd seen those east of the Mississippi.

[A]

No. No. Triple sevens, 631 spread. They're like, who are these what's a 631? They brought what.

[B]

We might have showed up there with a dozen Ames folks and recruited through the union with the union's help. Just some amazing, amazing folks that had never been in construction before, trained them all up, put them in equipment, and I mean, to see a team member's eyes light up. I remember the stories. Story. We were down there and we had an operator and we were doing one of our luncheons and he said, thank you. Before this, I was working at Walmart, but now I got health insurance. I've got a skill, I've got a career. I love what I'm doing. This is awesome. I never thought I'd be in construction, but this is amazing. I feel that sense of accomplishment that you were talking about earlier. I feel connected to the work and the earth and I'm making a difference and it's been great for my family. And he said, like, how much is this thing that I'm driving? It's like, well, it's about 6, $700,000. He's like, what, you trust me with that? He's like, we trust you. You're doing a great job. We do trust you. And you just keep doing what you're doing. So, yeah, it's just good to be able to do that and train, develop, make a difference in people's lives. And again, our productions are pretty darn consistent.

[A]

Well, you guys had a little scraper school out there, which I really. I. That was awesome. Yeah, it was just guys just doing flaps and scrapers. Like this one little. Just put the. Put the cutting edge just on the ground. Just drag it along the ground. That's all you need to do.

[B]

Our trainers were amazing and patient and they actually put us through there to put me through there too. Yeah. Which I said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? Yeah, but. But it was awesome. I mean, that was a. Literally a bucket list for me to be on those things and operate them. And again, gives you great appreciation for the athletes in the business, the industrial athletes that are out there doing that stuff, because it's not an easy job. It takes a lot of skill and it's fun to see it. It's like a ballet when it works well, it's very fun.

[A]

Well, that's what's tricky specifically about scrapers is it's true, treated like an entry level position, but in the grand scheme of things, there's nothing entry level about it. It's. There's a big difference between an educated and well experienced scraper spread and scraper operator group. Then you can tell which company's treating it as an entry level and which. Which company's treating it as serious. And I think that's the difference between, like, a Bemis is like, these guys are scraper operators there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They know what they need to do. Yeah. They're professionals. As professional as it gets. They treat it like a truck driver almost, and then they don't get the results. And it's like, hey, it is hauling. But there's more to it than that, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's like cars. I mean, these are the best of the best. Driving these things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And driving spreads and operating the equipment is just amazing.

[A]

No, people will think, like, this is a paid promotion of Ames or whatever it is. I'm not being paid to be here. Ames has paid me for video work in the past, but that's. I didn't really know Ames before this past year, year and a half. I had never visited a name site until like, a year and a half ago. I always knew of you guys. Like, yeah, they're big contractors. I think they know what they're doing. I got to know Larry a little bit. One of the original companies we worked with, Bemis, and when I say I got to know him, like, he's not. You don't really hang out with Larry. Like, you try to find him somewhere on a job site. But that tells you when you see a guy at that age who owns a company running a 631, that's everything you need to know. You don't. But as I've visited the company, I went to the North Carolina site down there.

[B]

Cleveland site.

[A]

Cleveland, Yeah. A few times. Rio Tinto, Kennecott. So I've been able to see enough now. It's like, wow, this is really. It's really unique. And when I met with you and Justin the first time, something you guys also said was, and this is the first time I have ever heard this, you guys were like, we actually. The labor market getting tighter. We like that.

[B]

It's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. You just. With a blank face. You and him were like, no, this is actually a great thing. Which is to me, that's why I'm so excited, because it's like, oh, yes, yes. This is a massive opportunity. And this is a leading company that's identified it as a massive opportunity. Why do you guys have that mentality, though?

[B]

Well, if you think about the folks who do the work, the craft workers and our team members out there, I would say for decades, they didn't really have a lot of choice. And they did not have a voice, and now they have both, which is awesome because they deserve that. They need to be treated well. They need to make people need to celebrate what they do. And they're the heroes out there of the story of construction. They are truly the heroes of the story of construction. And so we love that because we just think the world of them. And so it's good for them. Right. So it's kind of like your best friend who gets a great promotion and lives their best life. It's like, do you feel bad about that? I don't feel. I feel I'm happy for them. That's awesome. Good for them. They worked hard at it. They deserve every break they get. Right. That's really cool. And so, to me, it's great. And we're going to be fine. I mean, if that's the challenge, we got that. Because again, the people who come here want to be here. And if we end up with the folks that want to build stuff and we can care about them and we can find them, then it's a matter of just finding the work, getting the work at the right price and taking care of our customers. Yeah, we can do that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We feel really good about that.

[A]

That's what drew me into civil construction to begin with, was that when I learned about construction. Civil, horizontal, vertical, gcs. I like the building stuff part of it. And buildings GCs. There is some building stuff, but it's. You've got your general contractor, then you've got all the trades. I just didn't resonate with that. A lot of people do. Good for them. Awesome. But I resonated with the. I just want to build stuff. Let's just go build stuff. And it's. It is. It is so cool. And when I. When I got into this world, I went to work for some big companies. It's the level of responsibility you can get quickly, especially with the workforce challenge that's going on right now is wild. It was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was scratching my head with some of this stuff. It's like, wait, there's nobody double checking what the heck's going on. I'm the one in. I'm the one with this responsibility. It's like, yeah, we've got other stuff to worry about. It's like, okay, all right. But then with that level of trust and responsibility, you take it seriously. I'm not gonna go screw around with this. I'm gonna. Okay, then, yeah, then you own it. It creates this sense of ownership that's pretty strong. And so like, for somebody like me, it's really appealing to go work for a company that just wants to build stuff.

[B]

Yeah, we have projects where, I mean, the average age of the Entire team is mid-20s, super cool. And they're super jacked up about it and they love it. And they're all in, right? They are all in. And they get all the responsibility, they're accountable and they get the glory of doing something really, really cool and making a difference. Usually in a community that really needed a project. Right. I mean, rarely. I mean, people always remember, you know, the bridge to nowhere, but rarely are projects that we do superfluous at all. Right. They're necessary. They don't get funded until they're like critical and necessary. And so, you know, we've got a project going down in Chester, Missouri where it might have been 50 years. They were trying to replace this bridge. Right. And it's a rattly old bridge and the, and the deck is falling down and every once in a while it gets closed. But there's two communities. There's communities on both sides and it's the only way around other than maybe a 50, 60 mile detour going around the other way. And so when we show up, it's almost like you're liberating them from the oppression they've been under. Right. And so it's just a celebration and everybody feels this sense of purpose and community and I mean, it's awesome. It's awesome. So it's really fun just even in my role, to be a really small part of that. Just celebrating our team and trying to make it happen.

[A]

Even with the, like we were talking before we officially began about the disaster stuff. The disaster stuff. These horrible things happen. These first responders go in right after that or even alongside the first responders are contractors. And then contractors are the ones that are there for years after picking up the pieces and putting the whole place back together. And if that doesn't highlight the importance of this world, I don't know what does.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

If they're the ones alongside the first responders and they're the ones after, when society gets wiped off the map, it's like there's nothing more foundational than that. It's not like the we gotta go get the car dealerships back in here right away. That's important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh no. Yeah. And not to diminish other stuff, but it's like that is front and center. Or like 9 11, 911 happens. There's the story of how Many contractors were there sifting through the wreckage, removing all of the wreckage, excavating down, rebuilding the subway lines, preparing to build that new build. Like, it was. It was 15 years, whatever it was. 20 years of work there done by hardworking people, which is. It's just. It's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. Who are rarely celebrated.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And that. I do struggle with that, too. It's like, why is everybody bummed out about it getting better for people out in the field? Like, isn't it cool for them to make more money? And maybe, like, it's like, I get it. You got verbally berated coming up. But, like, is that the best way to do it? Was it fun for you? And I know, like, hard work's important. I'm not saying we need to work less hard. We need to work hard, but maybe there's a different way to bring people up. I don't know. And I don't think it's wrong for the next generation to demand that. And they can vote based on where they work. And it's like, if you can't find your workforce, that's your problem.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I love the work like Mike Rowe was doing around that. Right. And I think he was in a podcast with Tucker Carlson. I think that was Right. But he was talking about how at some point, there's a decision that everybody has to make. Do you go to school, maybe go get a humanities degree, or do you go kind of learn how to do real work in construction or something like that. Right. And if I recall correctly, I think Mike Rose comment back was, I actually think the welder should be able to cite philosophers. So I don't think this bifurcation, that's a falsehood. Right. We shouldn't have to live in that world. We can be both. You can be an amazing welder and still understand what START was trying to say. Right. So to me, that's where we're coming from with this is. You know, these are amazing people in this business. They could do many of the folks, they could do anything. Right. They just love building stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So don't hold that against them or think they're something that they're not. Like, they're brilliant.

[A]

Oh, I think they are Like a bridge, for example. I just marvel, like, how do you get it straight? How'd you get it straight? Like the pier straight up and down. And how do you get them all right in the same line? I'm amazed by it all the time, but I think I've started to go further down that path. I was going down the path of like, yeah, not everybody should go to college. But I also think that's a little unrealistic. It's again, it's like, I don't think that's perfectly in tune with reality. I think a lot of people are gonna continue to go to college because they're always like, oh, they can go to trade schools. I'm like, that's fine, they can go to trade schools. But if you just look at the math, it doesn't. Math. The trade school industry has been annihilated by lobbying by the higher education system over decades. The numbers just aren't there. And maybe for H Vac or for electricians, but to build a road, to build a bridge, to lay pipe, it doesn't exist. There's no trade school for pipeline. And maybe there is in some, like, there's like some niche trade school that I don't know about, but I'm sure there is.

[B]

They'll call you.

[A]

Yeah, they're going to let me know. But it's like, go to college, go to college and just don't do it in a silly way. You don't need to go to Dartmouth for $80,000 a year. Out of state. I stayed in state. Arizona State. Arizona State gave me a scholarship. I was a terrible student in high school. They still gave me a scholarship. And then I went into the construction program. There's like a 178 item list of all the scholarships available to construction students that no one applies for. I just would sit down in the library for a day. I'm gonna go apply for as many damn things as I can. You get it paid for. You're working construction this summer, making a ridiculous amount of money. I couldn't believe my checks.

[B]

Wondering why you're going back to school.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Frustrated when August or September comes. But like, yeah, that binary, treating it as if it's binary is silly. It's like that. Nothing works that way. Life is not binary. If you don't want to go to college, don't go to college. But I think, I argue college is actually great no matter where you want to go, because it gives you four years that are relatively risk free to figure out who you are and to dabble and try a bunch of stuff like, I went to work for five contractors in four years. Had I just gone into the industry at 18:1, I would not have been in the programs I got into because I was in school. I got you go. You get into a fast track field engineer intern program. That gets you crazy cool exposure. And then two, by the time I was at my third company in two years, they would have been like, why have you been at 2? Like, why are you hopping around, bucko? But I was in. No one batted an eye. Cause it's like, I'm just a college kid, and I was able to try out a bunch of stuff and ultimately make what I thought at the time was and what was a great decision with where I wanted to dedicate myself to.

[B]

I don't think that's a no, it's a great path.

[A]

Yeah. And I did it without no debt. Like, there's that. There's the common talking point of all the debt, which I get. But that's not the only way to do it either, which is why I scratch my head a little bit. So go get a degree. You can still be an excavator operator with a degree. And then here at Ames, you know, you've got the thousands of people out in the field, but it doesn't run without the people in the office, too.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot of support.

[A]

You need accountants, you need lawyers, you need engineers. You need a lot of people with degrees to make it all work, too.

[B]

Yeah. And those all build different skills and capabilities. And again, if you can find the right place where you fit culturally, I think there's incredible opportunities for everybody, like you said, if they want to pursue them. And so how do you grow the people? How do you help people grow along the way and build teams?

[A]

But I had to try a bunch of stuff to figure out what I even thought fit culturally. And I'm. I promote people moving to different companies because it's like, hey, if you've done everything you can. And I think, you know, when you've done everything you can and it still sucks for you, go somewhere else. You can go work for another company. And that's good for you and the company, because you're not a right fit for the company, which does the company no good and does you no good. Go find something a little bit better. And I think this labor market offers people that opportunity.

[B]

I agree. Yeah. Yeah. They shouldn't feel stuck. They have voices, they have choices. They can move around and do what's best for them and their family. Yeah, I would agree.

[A]

Yeah. And I encourage people, especially in their 20s, to try a bunch of stuff like if you get lucky and you find the aims, and aims is for you at 20 years old, 18 years old, 19 years old, good for you. That's awesome. And you can ride that Wave as long as you want to ride it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the odds of that happening are slim in the grand scheme of things. And so it's like, I feel like, especially your 20s, it should be experimental. You should play around a little. I had to go work for a small company. This was the advice I was given. Work for a small contractor, medium contractor, big contractor. What do you like? It's like, I didn't know what I liked. And there were pros and cons with all three sizes. Um, but you just like in the marketing materials, the company's really not gonna tell you how it is. You have to kind of go there or at least talk to people that are there to figure it out. Which is also, I think, where the Internet wins is I tell people all the time, go talk to people that work there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[A]

People are accessible.

[B]

People are accessible. And. And most people love to talk about what they do. Right. And if they don't, then that probably should tell you something too, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

If they're not real happy with it, then that tells you its own story.

[A]

Yeah. That's even how I got connected with you. I just messaged you on LinkedIn. Yeah, you messaged back, let's do it. Yeah, that's great.

[B]

Well, you do amazing stuff. I think what you're doing is, again, it celebrates this amazing business and celebrates the heroes and the stories, and that's cool, right? And we're all. I don't know if everybody, but most of us have this part of us where we were in a sandbox at some point with some rusted out Tonka toys or something pushing them around. And maybe the other kids went back when the bell rang, but some of us stayed there. Right. And just kept playing. And this is a business that lets you do that every day, which is pretty, pretty cool. Sure.

[A]

What say you get a group of new hires in. What do you tell them? Or what do you want to tell them?

[B]

You know, I think part of it is to, again, to see if this is a fit for them. Then we want to help them become whatever they want to become in life. Right. So I think the goal is and aims, if they want to be builders, we will keep them building. Right. And so I think there's an opportunity for anybody to come in and make a difference. Like you talked about, get outsized responsibility early in your career. But you have to want it, right? I mean, we do. And again, this is part of the. There's the way everybody wants the world to work and then the way the world actually Works. Right. So we do a ton of foreman in training development, superintendent in training development, mechanic in training development. Just because we aren't seeing it from the schools in the formal education process. But that's okay. That was designed to do a certain thing, too. Right. And it did it. And so we just have to kind of focus on what we need and what's going to help our team members be successful. So if they're willing to, if they want it, if they have the want and. And they put in the effort and this is a good fit for them, then, gosh, we want them here a long, long time, and we want to help them be whatever they want to be.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. Again, it's just. I don't think there's ever been more opportunity in this industry than there is right now for somebody young. If you want it, you're hungry, you're willing to go all in.

[B]

It is. And that's. And, I mean, I think there's. You know, everybody's. Every generation has said the next generation isn't like them, which is true. And they look at certain traits or behaviors, but we haven't seen that. I mean, honestly, we find incredible young talent that works hard and wants it and puts in the effort and asks great questions and is very curious and challenges us along the way. And they're just very smart. You know, I mean, they understand the technology. They know how to use it to their advantage. They take to things really quickly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, this was kind of an industry built on farm kids years ago. Right. But there's fewer farms, fewer kids. Right. So that isn't the answer. That was a model. And we have a lot of. I mean, if you go around and we do introductions and people say where they're from, you'll hear a lot of little towns and a lot of people that grew up fixing stuff and making it run and helping out, and that's awesome. But we also have a lot of kids that didn't grow up that way, but have a desire to learn. They're curious, and they're great team players, and they want to work hard and make a difference. And once we get them in and it fits, I mean, that is really. Then it really starts. It's really fun to see.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. See who takes to it.

[B]

Yeah. It's super rewarding because the passion, you know, and when you're standing out there and they show you the, you know, how they made this, how they made this thing work, how they solved this problems, and most of us want to be Helpful and want to help people and solve problems. That's part of the human dynamic. And construction allows you to do that every single day, right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Whether they're problems in the process, problems, misunderstandings, communications, or just the challenges that everybody has along the way to get stuff done.

[A]

Yeah. People ask me all the time, like, how do you get these guys talking? It's like, it's not hard. You just ask them, what are you building? Why are you doing it this way? What are you fixing? Why is it broken? And then you just have to shut up.

[B]

And we all know, I mean, usually better, the better the questions, the better everything goes. Right. So if you can sit back and see things, you know, that maybe other people can't see, or data points that other people aren't filtering, you can come to some better answers along the way. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[A]

It's extremely cool.

[B]

This business. I mean, I remember years ago doing, when I was on the risk side going through a process with, I think it was with Flora at the time, but they, they had identified 5,500 different interdependent and independent risks in the construction process. Right. And so we were trying to delineate all that and then map it and then figure out where it all went and then create, you know, kind of risk transfer mechanisms upstream, downstream to, you know, doing all that stuff. But, but if you think about what gets thrown at people with 5,500 independent interdependent risk, a process that's a lot to manage. There's complexity there that, but a simplicity in what you're trying to achieve, but a complexity with how you do it, which I think is appealing to people.

[A]

On different fronts, I think is so appealing. I mean, you could go do the exact same job in theory a hundred times over and get a hundred different results just because it's outside, just weather alone.

[B]

Well, each job has never happened before. So if you think about it, that group of people in that place at that time under those conditions has never happened before. And that's why it's different than manufacturing, that's why it's different than an office environment. It's never been done before. And when you think about all the external impacts that could happen along the way, whether it's what happened to that person or the, or you know, the, the just society in general or the public that's interacting with it, I mean, all those things are going on at once. Right? So I mean, if you like variety, it's, and you like, and you like contributing, this is a great business. It really is. And if you, you will not be bored.

[A]

If you don't like variety, this is the worst place.

[B]

It's a tough. It's tough. Yeah. If you're looking for mundane and, and boring and just to hide out, this isn't a great business. It's not a great business. But yeah, I'm sure there's something else out there.

[A]

So it is at the. You guys build small projects, big projects, some of the biggest projects in the United States and then some, some small projects too, which is quite interesting. The variety. I don't know why it took me this long to really like to register, but I was driving through this massive highway project not too long ago and I just saw a crew working on something small off to the side. This multi billion dollar project all around me. And it's just a single crew doing something. And it sounds so dumb, but it's like all it is is people and crews doing one thing at a time. That's it. That makes up this multi billion dollar highway project. That's all there is to it in the grand scheme of things, which is way oversimplifying it, but it really is. Everything else is secondary to that one crew doing whatever they're doing for that day.

[B]

It's all about crews. Yeah. And this isn't a business where you're lone wolfing much at all. You're working as a team with a crew. Maybe a small crew, maybe a big crew, but you're working with a crew with a shared purpose, a vision and an understanding of how it all fits together. And that's why people feel the contribution in that sense of being a part of something. Right. And that's the power. And I think as humans, that's what we seek. We seek to belong, we seek to contribute, we seek to have purpose. And so to me, construction is like a no brainer as a human, if it's what you're, if it's what you want to do, it can fill a lot of, a lot of holes we have inside to and help us through things. So it's pretty cool. But I agree with you, it is about the crews. And so then our whole focus is how do you develop those teams, those people, those crews, those leaders. And then how do you get the crews organized to work together? I mean, that's fundamentally what the business is. And then yeah, ultimately it rolls up to, you know, work all over and billions and communities impacted and people helped along the way.

[A]

But it's like at this point, probably a majority of the United States has been touched in some way by Ames. If you think about the airports, the rail lines, the mines, the power plants, I mean it's a massive impact.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is also to me super, super compelling.

[B]

Yeah. And the families.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know I think right now we're 44 different states are represented at times it's been all 50 but represented in the families and so yeah it's, it is, it is a, it's a significant undertaking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To make sure that that's all supported and. And kind of making. Making good music together. So.

[A]

Awesome. Well, we probably need to leave and we have a flight. What time's our flight?

[B]

Four to three. Probably get your wrap up however you want. However you want to wrap up. Yeah, that's the wrap up.

[A]

I appreciate you sitting down. I'm glad you were able to do this.

[B]

It was awesome and it's always good to see you.

[A]

Yeah.