Ben Warren w/ Warren Land Solutions – DT 410

Summary

Dirt Talk Podcast – Episode 410

Guest: Ben Warren (Warren Land Solutions)
Host: Aaron Witt (BuildWitt)
Date: January 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid and insightful conversation, Aaron Witt sits down with Ben Warren, President and Founder of Warren Land Solutions, a prominent land clearing contractor in the southern U.S. Both in their early 30s and seasoned by a decade of entrepreneurial experiences, Aaron and Ben explore the realities of business ownership in the dirt world, reflections on personal growth, faith, the value of community, family legacies, and the gritty details of land clearing operations. The discussion is raw, practical, and often philosophical—offering valuable takeaways for business owners, leaders, and dirt world enthusiasts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hard Lessons in Business Ownership

• Business Burn & Legal Battles ([00:00]–[02:44])

  • Both agree everyone eventually gets "burned" in business; it's inevitable.
  • Avoid making legal battles the "hill you die on"—often no one wins, and it’s draining on time, money, and spirit.
    • Quote – Aaron: “You’re better off just getting kicked in the nuts, taking a deep breath, and just keeping on. Most of the time.” ([02:45])
  • Ben highlights that many business conflicts result from honest mistakes, not intentional harm.

• Cash Flow Struggles & Vulnerability ([03:24]–[05:45])

  • Both admit to having, at times, delayed payments to vendors to prioritize essentials (eg. payroll).
  • The pressure to appear fiscally stable makes open discussion about financial strain rare but necessary.
    • Quote – Ben: “It’s probably the biggest thing that’ll keep you up at night.” ([04:58])

2. Growing Up in Business

• Starting Young ([05:45]–[07:11])

  • Ben started WLS at age 20, hiring friends with CDLs to move equipment as he wasn’t old enough for a license.
  • Aaron reflects on how the common “contractor starter pack” includes a skid steer and how foundational that is.

• Reflections on Turning 30 ([07:27]–[10:48])

  • Both wrestle with the milestone of 30, noting how age forces perspective on achievement, health, and the pressure cooker of the 20s.

3. Family, Identity & Leadership

• Family Life & Reward ([10:48]–[12:24])

  • Ben describes the rewards and challenges of raising a young family while running a business.
    • Quote – Ben: “It’s so rewarding. It’s not hard. Does that make sense?” ([11:25])
  • Both compare notes on learning to be a business owner, leader, and an adult at the same time—often without guidance from a father (both lost theirs young).

• The Legacy and Parental Impact ([12:20]–[14:29])

  • The hosts reflect on the impact of their absent fathers and the bittersweet aspect of wanting to share entrepreneurial successes with them.
  • “Not having that ability to use them as a guide in a way really grows you up fast.” – Ben ([14:05])

4. Coping, Health, and Spirituality

• Stress & Wellbeing ([15:04]–[17:40])

  • They both stress the importance of treating themselves like athletes—maintaining health, sobriety, and regular exercise to survive the grind.
    • Quote – Aaron: “I stopped drinking two years ago. Cutting that out was a no-brainer…” ([15:47])
  • Exercise as a non-negotiable for mental health.

• Rediscovering Faith ([17:40]–[26:28])

  • Aaron shares a renewed focus on spirituality, finding peace through a personal—rather than institutional—relationship with faith.
    • Quote – “You don’t need church. It’s kind of made up. It’s just you and God, you and the Bible.” ([19:32])
  • Ben adds that the real value is in having believing friends who can offer wise counsel, and how “church” is more about community than a building.

• Philosophy, Faith & Personal Growth ([26:28]–[37:03])

  • Deep dive into the themes of good, evil, and internal struggle with faith and doubt.
  • “I’m really glad I’m struggling with [faith], if that makes sense.” – Aaron ([32:43])
  • Importance of staying curious, asking questions, and not being afraid of doubt—even in religious spaces.

5. Travel, Perspective, and Humility

• How Travel Shapes Worldview ([37:03]–[41:13])
  • Aaron discusses how traveling, especially to “backwoods” America and abroad, reshaped his understanding of people, privilege, and judgment.
  • Money, while useful, loses its shine when exposed to vast cultures and extremes.

6. The Role of Money & Wealth in Life

• Chasing Money vs. Creating Value ([41:13]–[56:38])
  • Both acknowledge their ambitions, but warn about the dangers of defining success only by wealth.
    • Quote – Ben: “My dad always taught me your child spells love, T-I-M-E, not what BMW you’re buying them.” ([50:21])
  • Observations that “most people with money in America… have just consumed and destroyed in most ways” unless they’re actively creating.
  • Construction is praised for being a creation-focused industry, unlike much of finance.

7. Legacy, Kids, and Multigenerational Business

• Handing Down Wealth or Businesses ([57:27]–[66:44])
  • Both express reservations about simply handing over money/assets to their kids; experiences and work ethic are valued over inheritance.
  • Ben shares his approach: assist if he sees the drive and intent in his kids, but avoid creating expectations of handouts.
  • The complexity of multigenerational business succession in construction is debated. Both stress the need for children to find their own calling, not just inherit the family business.

8. Land Clearing Industry Deep-Dive

• Curtain Burners, Chippers, and Grinders ([68:00]–[83:01])

  • Discussion on curtain burners: advantages, limitations, and regulatory hurdles.
  • Equipment talk: grinders, chippers, feller bunchers (mostly Tiger Cat brand), operational strategies for clearing, stumping, chipping, and grinding. Differences in workflow between the Southeast and Northwest, and the sheer costs and complexity of running specialized machines.
    • Quote – Ben: “It is not, if you want to make money, do not get in the clearing industry.” ([54:01])
  • Some insights into the equipment (e.g., Tiger Cat’s innovative clutchless grinder) and why brand loyalty forms around high-reliability machines.

• Chipper vs. Grinder Operation ([77:12]–[82:00])

  • Chippers use knives and are faster for clean wood; grinders use blunt force and are more versatile but slower.
  • On-site logistics of chipping, stump removal, and how the job is staged.

• Right-of-Way, Railroads, Airport Work ([84:44]–[101:11])

  • Ben shares perspectives on right-of-way clearing, the niche world of railroad/pipeline contracts, and the generally insular nature of these sectors.
  • Minor forays into demolition and trucking: Starting their own trucking arm due to logistics needs, challenges with for-hire trucking (insurance costs, etc.).

9. Trucking Expansion and Challenges

• In-House Heavy Haul ([92:24]–[96:11])
  • The decision to start a separate trucking entity for operational control and backhaul opportunities.
  • Eye-opening costs related to insurance for for-hire heavy haul trucking: $6,000–$7,000/month/truck.

10. Local Projects & The Boring Company

• Nashville’s Infrastructure Boom ([101:11]–[107:14])
  • Musings on airport expansions (“they’re only getting going”), project sectioning, and how local work remains largely invisible, even to industry insiders.
  • The Boring Company’s new Nashville tunnel: surprise at how quickly the project is advancing, questions about permitting, excitement at the prospect of new transportation tech under the city, and the local buzz it’s creating.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Aaron: “If the kitchen’s too hot, then just leave the damn kitchen.” ([01:37])
• Ben: “You can work with perfect integrity, but still have enemies.” ([03:11])
• Aaron: “It’s like, I need to be healthy. I stopped drinking two years ago. ...When I can’t exercise, I make sure I get at least 15,000 steps in a day.” ([15:47],[16:21])
• Aaron on faith: “You don’t need church. It’s you and God, you and the Bible.” ([19:32])
• Aaron on family legacies: “One of the best things my dad did for me was, ‘That’s it, you’re an adult now. Have at it, bud.’” ([59:27])
• Ben on kids and wealth: “My dad always taught me, your child spells love T-I-M-E, not what BMW you’re buying them.” ([50:21])
• Ben (on the land clearing business): “If you want to make money, do not get in the clearing industry.” ([54:01])
• Aaron on travel: “Once you break [judgmental barriers] down, you’re like, I can’t see the world the same ever again.” ([36:25])
• On The Boring Company tunnel:
  Aaron: “People are getting upset about it. It’s like, what is there to get upset about? They’re making a tunnel. They’re paying for it. What’s the problem?” ([106:29])

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:00–05:45] – Business hardships, legal battles, and cash flow struggles
• [05:45–10:48] – Early starts, milestone birthdays, and lessons from their 20s
• [10:48–15:04] – Starting families, business vs. manhood, loss of fathers
• [15:04–17:40] – Stress, health, and lifestyle choices for entrepreneurs
• [17:40–26:28] – Spirituality, religion vs. personal faith, and finding community
• [26:28–41:13] – Faith, philosophy, world travel, and humility
• [41:13–56:38] – Wealth, value creation, and the seduction/danger of chasing money
• [57:27–66:44] – Family legacy, kids, and passing down business/wealth
• [68:00–81:38] – Deep dive: curtain burners, grinders, chippers, feller bunchers
• [84:44–101:11] – Right-of-way, trucking operations, insurance costs, airport and infrastructure work
• [101:11–107:14] – Nashville’s infrastructure surge, The Boring Company tunnel, and local flavor
• [107:14–End] – Wrapping up, tornado memories, honest reflections

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Tone & Style

This episode is frank and friendly, blending practical advice, war stories, and philosophical reflection. Both speakers strike a balance between hard-nosed realism and thoughtful introspection—offering listeners a sense of camaraderie and an unfiltered look behind the scenes of leadership in construction and land clearing. Humor punctuates heavier moments, especially regarding the absurdities of bureaucracy, big machines, and business mishaps.

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For New Listeners

This conversation is a perfect snapshot of the Dirt World’s realities—part therapy, part technical deep-dive, and part motivational talk for anyone grappling with the highs and lows of running a business in a challenging industry. Whether you’re a contractor, business owner, or just curious about the people building America, Ben and Aaron’s transparency offers both lessons and a sense of kinship.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

This Dirt Talk podcast episode is with Ben Warren of Warren Land Solutions. Ben is the president and founder of Warren Land Solutions, a land clearing contractor working in the southern U.S. now in his 30s, he's learned a lot of lessons along the way. I first met Ben when I moved to Nashville in 2020. I think I had him on the podcast. This might even be his third time on. We're similar of a similar age, in a similar age of business. So it's always fun to catch up, see what the heck is going on and talk shop. So with that, enjoy this conversation with Mr. Ben Warren. Now that we're recording, I have a list of companies that I won't touch. Touch of the ten foot pole. But I think that's everybody in business. Yeah, that's everybody. Like you, just you. You will inevitably get burned. It's just, it's like gravity. It will happen. It will probably happen many times over.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I think where, where people go wrong. I've. I was actually writing about this this morning, reflecting upon this. It's an amateur move in business to complain about business ownership, I think, and I've done that a lot. But now that I'm a little further down the road, I'm like, how dumb did I look complaining about, you know, whatever it was, business ownership because you.

[B]

Signed up for it.

[A]

I signed up for it, yeah. No one has a gun to my head. Okay. So, yeah, I signed up for it. So, like, I'm complaining about what I signed up for. Okay. If you don't like it, then if the kitchen's too hot, then just, just leave the damn kitchen. That's one thing I've made that mistake, the mistake I haven't made, that I see a lot of people make, especially in this world. There's big egos in contracting. You've probably seen some maybe here or there. Go figure. People get screwed and then that becomes the hill they die on in some ways. And then they go lawyer up. And then there's a following 24 month legal battle that takes how much time, money, energy, stress. Yeah. Like no one wins. And I know sometimes you have to take legal action sometimes, but that's a very. It happens way more than I think it should.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a shame that people get screwed, but like, you're better off just getting kicked in the nuts, taking a deep breath and then just keeping on. Most of the time a lot of.

[B]

People think it's intentional, but it's like if you're in an unfortunate situation, lots of times it's honestly A simple mistake that someone made. Yeah, but a lot of people translate that to, well, you know, they're doing that to me on purpose.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That's what I've found longer being in business because you can, you can work with, you know, dang near perfect integrity, but still have enemies, you know, dude.

[A]

We even last year, like, we had some bills we couldn't pay right away. Like, we were intentionally dragging some things out because we, like. Yep. It was to the point where, like, we've got to prioritize. Like one payroll, that's the clear priority. Everything else then falls in line and, and there were upset people, but it's like, you can just be honest. That's all you can do. And everything is squared now. Like, we're not, we're not just going to not pay somebody. That's. To me, I couldn't.

[B]

I think every business owner's been there. He's. If, if, if you've been aggressive at all, you've been there.

[A]

You know, I think most. I, I found. If you've been in business at all, you've been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Most people don't talk about, though, because it's.

[B]

They think it's only them or.

[A]

Well. And like, you can and can't talk about it because, one, you don't want to talk about it in, like, the poor me way. Like, I don't. You don't want to talk about it in that way. That, that doesn't look good for anybody. And then you're afraid because, well, like, what does this do? Like, if you have people working for you now, they're questioning. Yep. You know, they're the, the ability to support their families. If you're doing work for other contractors or developers or whatever, now you're worrying about jeopardizing those relationships. Like, they're. I understand why more people don't talk about it, but then I talk about it all the time behind closed doors and everybody's like, yeah. And I'm like, what, you too? Like, yeah.

[B]

It's probably the biggest thing that'll keep you up at night, you know? Like, I mean, that. Those kind of problems through my now 10 years being in business, that whenever I've ran into issues like that, that is the most draining thing I think you could ever someone could ever face. I agree.

[A]

Yeah. I think, like, people issues suck. Those are exhausting. Legal issues suck. Like, but the money thing, it just grinds you down. It. At least that's how I've experienced it. Like, it's just this. It's not like this sharp pain, it's just like grinding you into dust in a way. Yep. When, how old were you when you started again?

[B]

I was 20.

[A]

Damn. Damn. That's crazy. Yeah, I started when I was 23. Yeah.

[B]

So I'm, I'm, I'm 30 now. I just turned 30 last week, so.

[A]

Oh, shit. Yeah. So we're damn near same age. Yeah, similar age.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I started. I had to originally. Of course, I don't have a CDL anymore. Like I, I'm at 100% out of the field. I've been pretty much that way for about five years now. Yeah, but, but, and I don't have. Yeah, I don't have a CDL anymore. But I started before I could legally have a cdl. So I'd have to hire my friends who had. Had them to move like skid steers and stuff around.

[A]

You have to be 21 to have a CDL. Really? And yeah, you can't even move a skid steer. Whoa.

[B]

A certain weight skid steer, you can move your. The one small one like a 299. You can't move without a CDL.

[A]

But you can go get a.

[B]

If you want to get technical, you.

[A]

Can go get a 40 whatever foot RV.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With a trailer. Enclosed trailer.

[B]

But I don't talk about skid steers anymore. So that's, that's kind of where I'm, you know, I do not like skid steers with a passion.

[A]

So that's like the contract. The, the contractor starter pack always has a skid steer within it.

[B]

I think anyone who's ever bootstrapped a construction company started.

[A]

Started there. Yeah. The skid steer has been responsible for starting more construction companies and just about anything. Yeah, yeah, it's. So you just turned 30. Has that been, has that been odd at all? I was just talking to somebody yesterday about this.

[B]

Sometimes I. It's kind of been odd. I realized I'm still very young. But I also realized that I think technically your body starts dying at 28. I'm not meaning that in a negative sense, but it's not growing anymore. Your brain's may be developing a little bit, but the body itself is actually deteriorating.

[A]

I don't, I don't buy into that though.

[B]

You don't buy into that?

[A]

No, not nowadays.

[B]

I mean, I agree with maintenance, you know, like working out and eating healthy and all that stuff. But you don't think it's, it's growing.

[A]

Well, okay, there's like the biological. Yeah, yeah. Perhaps. Yes. But you see Guys like Cam Haynes that are damn near 60 years old. Oh yeah. Performing better than ever.

[B]

Oh yeah. I'm not saying.

[A]

And it's just like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think people like give up though. They're like, you turn 30, like, oh, my knee hurts. Oh man. Well, that's it. It's like, no, dude, when's the last time you went to the gym? Like three years ago. That's why you're fucking here. Yeah.

[B]

My dad was 68 with six pack.

[A]

There you go. Yeah.

[B]

Like so. Yeah, I agree with you 100, 100% there. I'm just saying you're. You're not growing. Yeah, that's fair, but I'm not an expert.

[A]

Well, I was talking to somebody yesterday though. Cause it was like When I turned 30, my birthday was in February. I was like, eh, it's not that big of a deal. It's just another birthday. But it's like the first time you kind of like bookend a decade because when you're 20, you don't really care. And 21's the big thing.

[B]

I think it's gonna be forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you think 30 year olds are old.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like mid college and college is just a zoo and you can't legally drink for another year and this and that. So it's not that big of a deal. When you're 10, you're a kid. 30 is like, okay. Like you do look back on the past decade, or at least I started to like, I wasn't. I had a little bit of arrogance about it. I was like, ah, this isn't that big of a deal. And then it smacked me around a little bit. I was like, oh, actually this is. There's some weight to this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was. I wasn't really expecting it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I'm appreciative even though it's taken some years off my life. Seriously, like, you know, like, I think stress is one of the hardest things on your body. And I've been, I mean, I was nothing but stressed through my entire 20s. Yeah, it's going down slightly as things stabilize, but you know, the. Or as I get more experience. Because you naturally, you know, your anxiety will go down as you have experience. I feel like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in my 20s, it just hit me like a freight train.

[A]

When you started a family two years ago now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

My wife and I have been married for seven years or going on eight years now, and we have a three year old and have another one on the way. That's due in April.

[A]

That's a lot going on.

[B]

That's a lot going on.

[A]

Because I've had a lot going on in my 20s, but it was just the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so me, I look at a family as well. Like, I don't know if I.

[B]

It's. It's a. I don't know how to describe it. It's one of the hardest. There's a lot of hard things about it, but it's so rewarding. It's not hard. Does that make sense?

[A]

So it makes sense as much as it can to somebody without a family.

[B]

Right, right, right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like when you. It's unbel. How much. When you, you know, see a little critter come into the world, you know, it's crazy how much you love them, you know, but it's.

[A]

I mean, it's still a lot, though, because you're. And I. I've had to explain this, too. Like, you're. You're learning how to be a business owner, and you're learning how to be a leader while you're learning how to be a man in your 20s. All those things are happening at the same time. And so it's like, I feel like I made a bunch of.

[B]

One thing you and I can relate on is our dads were out of the picture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mine passed away.

[A]

Yeah. And how old were you?

[B]

I was 18.

[A]

Yeah, you were. You were young.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's brutal.

[B]

So, anyways, I interrupted.

[A]

No. But, yeah, I. And that's. That is part of it. Like, I'm 30, so my dad called it a day, and I was 26, which.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is like, I didn't have it planned that way, like, would have liked it to not happen. Right. But I felt like at the time I was 26. I'm like, I have everything I need in a way, like, past that point. It's not like I need. Like, the way I've looked at it is like, I'm thankful it happened that way because he'd kind of, like, done everything I needed from him in a way, from, like, a raising.

[B]

I can relate with that a lot.

[A]

Developing me, but it's. It's just. It's been a bummer because it's like he put all of this time and energy and sacrifice into making me into me, plus my mother and other factors. But big part of it, now that I'm, like, running with. And he handed me the ball, and now that I'm running with it, it's like I want to share it with him in a way. Yeah, that's been the bummer for me. It's like, damn, dude, like, you spent all these decades doing this. Yeah, I wish, like, I wish we could do it together because that would be. It would be more fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's what's bummed me out is like, it's not that I feel like I'm missing something in a like, fundamental sense because I think he did a great job handing everything off. Then he handed it off and then that was that. It's like, come on.

[B]

Well, and I mean, my dad was very involved with my life and made me into who I am today probably more than anyone. But exactly what you're saying, not having that ability to use them as a guide in a way really grows you up fast.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like the water wings come off and you're like, oh, I'm out here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The deep end, man. Let's go. But, but business does too. Like, oh yeah, business is a jungle and it is a game that I don't think most people should play. It's a terrible game. It's terrible. Like you were saying, just the stress and the nonsense and how consuming it is. It's really not healthy.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

But if it's for you, it's for you. It's just the game I was put here to play. For better or for worse, here we are.

[B]

I can't remember what the condition was called, but I know of someone who, where they were so stressed that the I think was the left half their face. Like, I'm not sure what the conditions called. I'm not sure if it's a form of a stroke or something, but like they're. The left half of their face went limp and it was due to stress.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. And now he has a speech impediment and different things.

[A]

I have been careful about that though from like, I can't control the outside factors. But I have treated. I mean, you're healthy too. It's like I have treated myself like an athlete as well. Like I need every physical advantage I can get to even just tolerate the environment I'm in. So it's like I need to be healthy. I stopped drinking two years ago. Like cutting that out was a no brainer at that point. I do sleep a lot. I sleep really well. But again, no kids. No, it's just me. And then consistent exercise like that.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Part of that. I don't know how people do It. When they're unhealthy or overweight. I'm like, I don't know, physically standing, dude.

[B]

I don't know how people make it without exercising. Some. Just some form of. When I can't exercise, I make sure I get at least 15,000 steps in a day. Yeah, at least. Like, that's the minimum.

[A]

Yeah. I'd be. I would be the biggest piece of shit if I didn't exercise.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I like no one. I've been intolerable. Like, it's for other people, not for me. First and foremost.

[B]

Same here. You just. You feel my back starts hurting when I don't work out. Like, I just hurt all over if I don't work out, you know?

[A]

Yeah. So. Yeah. So that. That. That at least is. Has helped me a lot. And honestly, this. The past year, in 2025, getting. Getting back into spirituality and religion has really helped as well. It's just brought me, like. It hasn't done anything about the stress, but it's brought me. It's like, a significant sense of peace. Like, all I can do is my best. It's taking this weight off because you're, as like a young man, you're just. You're trying to, like, force everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you start. At least this year I realized, like, wait, I can't force anything. I can work as hard as possible and that's it. Yeah. Like, whatever comes after that, I have no say in that. All I can do is, like, every night, look myself in the mirror. Did I just go flat out today? Did I do my best? Yes.

[B]

When you say your spiritual walk, what. What do you. What do you mean by that?

[A]

I was raised in the church. Christian. And then I wrote about the other day, like, so I grew up at Methodist Church in Arizona. Same church.

[B]

My.

[A]

My whole. Whole upbringing. My parents actually got married there. And you can move, get comfortable if.

[B]

You need to know. I'm comfortable. I was just making sure I was close enough to.

[A]

No, no, you're fine. Parents got married there. I was born there. I was. What do they do for children? Baptized.

[B]

Yeah. You're baptized.

[A]

I was baptized there, went to preschool there, went to Sunday school there was confirmed there. And then as a teenager, when I was, like, 11, 12, my parents got divorced. So then at that point, life became a little more Western in a sense of, like, there wasn't as much structure. And I give my parents a lot of credit for this. Like, once I became a teenager, it was kind of like, you do what you want to do. You Know, like, you're your own individual. You go figure life out. If you want to go to church, we can go to church. If you don't want to go to church, don't go to church. It's up to you. So at that point, I just wasn't all that interested. Like, I wasn't. It wasn't even, like, a rebellious thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't even like, screw this.

[B]

Yeah. You just weren't.

[A]

I didn't mind it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was like, it's fine. I don't know. I don't really get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I tried the. You know, I tried to find a church in college. I'm not a big church guy, though. It just kind of weirds me out. And especially more modern churches. If it's for you, great. But for me, I walk into some of these churches and I'm like, nah, dude. Like, I'm out. Like, this is not it at all. It's just almost like an allergic reaction. So I tried that. Nothing. And then I was listening to some guy talk about, like, I don't know why I hadn't thought about this. End of 24, he was like, you don't need church. It's kind of made up. Like, it's just you and God, you and the Bible. And it was like, oh.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's not. It's not about the church.

[A]

And if it's for you, again, like, I understand. I understand it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I even went on Christmas Eve this year to the same church, and it was fine. I was maybe expecting a little bit more, but I was like, it's fine. I don't know. Again, it's not for me, but I'm like, But I'm much further along now. It doesn't have to be about any of this. It's just. It's just me and God. The top question I'm asked is, what does Bill Wit do? Our purpose is to build the dirt world's next generation. The dirt world is the companies and people building the critical infrastructure and supporting those who build our critical infrastructure that. That we need to live the lives that we do. Our business is much bigger than me. I run around the world building our brand. But the business itself does two things. One, we help develop the next generation through our product called billwhit Improve. It's a daily training and development platform that about 300 civil construction companies are using to not just make their people better workers, but better people. And of course, we have the 2026 ARIAT dirtworld summit, the best Opportunity to develop yourself and your teams as leaders. So check us out. Billwhit.com, book a meeting with us, and we'll talk to you soon.

[B]

Church is a. Is a body of believers, and the. Basically, my belief is that you need to have people in your corner who are believers that can give you good counsel on something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've known people in church my whole life, groups of people that I would never trust in my life, and then there's other people that I would trust my whole life with. That's just plain cold, hard facts. But you have to have a community of people in some form or fashion. Business owners, just call them up. I got guys I talk to about my stuff that can relate with me. They know what I feel, and they love Jesus, and that's the best input I can get.

[A]

And I like, I. I'm super grateful. I've always had that, especially in this industry. There's a lot of those people. Like, if I was facing a really hard decision, it's probably like, 50 people I could call right now. Yeah. Which sounds crazy. Yeah. Like, 50 people that I would 100% trust their counsel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're on the same page.

[B]

That's awesome. And not many people have that.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And even within our business, like, just our leadership team. Dude, I trust anybody. Yeah. Trust anybody. This business with. With my life. Like, easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Easy decision. Which is awesome. Like, I'm. I'm. I write about that all the time, especially from a leadership standpoint, like those I interact most with in this. In this. Like, I talked a lot, and we've been there, like, where you're. You're. You're swimming upstream with some of the people within your company, or you don't totally trust them, or you don't know what their motives are, or you don't really align with them. This or this or that. Like, we've. We've been around that block a lot of times, but now it's like, no, we've got this leadership group. I'm 100% in on any of these individuals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've all, at this point, been to war and back.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

We're all beat up together, and we're all just. And we're all really aligned. And it kind of just happened naturally, though, which is also the fun part about it. Like, we didn't really intend for it to be that way, but it. We've just. We all are very aligned.

[B]

Camaraderie.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's why. I don't know, maybe I get into church one day, but it. For me, it's just not been a thing.

[B]

Well, yeah, I. If you have individuals, a lot of people will argue this. As long as you have individuals. Individuals around you that love Jesus. That is church.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Church is just. Yeah. That community.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But it's been made into this whole enterprise.

[B]

And traditions.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Now I think there is. I will actually argue. I think there is something to some traditions because it's almost like getting up in the morning and going on a walk without your phone. That's a habit. I think there's some things that. If you find the right church, depending on how your personality is or whatever, there are certain things that a church can do that allows you to meditate or fixate on things of the Lord, but everyone's different, you know?

[A]

Well, and it offers you the opportunity to just be, like, part of something much bigger. In, like, a physical sense. You're part of, like, a congregation. Like, you're all there to do one thing, but you're just a piece in that much bigger puzzle. Which I do appreciate. I just. Yeah. I feel like it's just naturally happened within this world, though. Like, the more I've gotten into it, the more I've realized most everybody in this world operates within the same value system. Almost everybody in civil construction. It's crazy. Like, it's. It's really incredible. Like, we. Even for the. For dirt world, we've got like, a prayer breakfast in the mornings.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Got a workout and prayer breakfast. And it's like hundreds of people show.

[B]

Up at 6am that's awesome.

[A]

Hundreds.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

And we. It was just something we just started doing in a more casual sense. But as we. It's been really surprising, actually. Like, even the first year, I was like, how many people showed up and they're like. I don't know. Like, the room was packed. Yeah. We couldn't fit any more people in the room. Like, really. And then. Because I just hadn't thought about it. And then the second year, it's like, yeah, more people showed up. And then the third year, now I'm thinking about it, and I actually went for one of the mornings, and it's like, yeah, this makes perfect sense. Like, I actually. This has been here this entire time, but I'm just now seeing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that makes sense. Like, it's. It's. It's always been here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Always been around these people. But there's this common thread between Most everybody from this values standpoint that I find really compelling about this world.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a. That you can go down a lot of rabbit trails there. One thing while we're just on the topic and then we can switch if you want. But just a, just in general reminder specifically also through my walk that because I grew up going to church, in fact my dad led some Bible studies and stuff in Russia. He was, he's actually used to be. He was a professional athlete in the 70s. He actually played in pro basketball, played for the Spurs. Look him up. His number was 21 and 1973 or 74 was his last year. No, 76. And was friends with Pete Maravich and George Gervin and several others. But that's. And then that's literally like a two hour conversation on how he went from there to ministry. But I grew up going to church and you know, like most people do in the Bible Belt, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Did you grow up in Georgia?

[B]

No, I grew up in Kentucky.

[A]

Oh, Kentucky, Kentucky.

[B]

But like literally like on the Tennessee line, like I'm literally like hour 15 from here, you know, so like. So anyways. But yeah, now I spend a lot of time in Georgia and I'm here and you know, traveling back and forth a ton. But it. And this is. Sounds odd and I've wrote a couple things about this. Um, but I never really just sat down and like, like think about this. When I was younger and lots of times experiences and just life will, you know, we're talking about. It'll just grind you down and it'll cause you to think about certain things. And I think it will be like that till we die, you know. But for whatever reason, I had things made up in my head. Like, you know, like, I believe Jesus is real, but you know, it's like there's a lot of questions. I got like a ton of questions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But through some experiences and that I won't really necessarily get into, but through my growth, I have challenged myself on some of these topics and I've been a believer most of my life, but basically I never really thought about like, I never had the thought go through my head. Like, yeah, Jesus was real, he raised from the dead, but like Satan is real for whatever reason. That didn't probably go through my head till seven, eight years ago. Like, he is here to rob our peace and is a real being just like Jesus was. We can't give him any power in that. We can't give him any power in that. And we need to Focus on Jesus. Like, how I brought up that, you know, the concentration never needs to be about Satan, but you need to be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove.

[A]

Well, I've reflected a lot upon the concept of good and evil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you can't. It's really naive to just think everything is good. Yeah, there's some really bad shit going on. Well, and there, there's evil forces out.

[B]

There that like, literally. Forces we can't see.

[A]

Yeah, well. And yeah, it's. But I'm. I'm still hitting this ball back and forth in my head. I'm like, you know, I'll be reading the New Testament. I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. Like, yeah, I'm sure that happened. And then later that day, I'm like, come on, come on. Yeah. And it's this, is this, it's this internal battle. But I'm. Maybe it's my entire life. I don't know. Or maybe there's something that happens that's like, oh, this makes perfect sense for me. It hasn't happened yet. I'm not, I haven't. I can't say, like, yep, it just makes perfect sense for me. It's very much a struggle, like, daily, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But I'm really glad I'm struggling with it, if that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, and that's the only way I can do it.

[B]

Like, I don't think that's what faith is like. Yeah, you have faith in that. Jesus is real.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

God is real.

[A]

Yeah. But then, but they're like, it was the first time I'd read the Bible. I'd never actually just read it cover to cover. It was a mission. And I'll be reading it the rest of my life now. Once I start doing something daily, I don't stop. So I'm still doing it.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

This year I'm doing more New Testament, though. We'll get to the Old Testament again some other time. It's just like, it's a little too much. But there's this, like, there's this phrase, recurring phrase, new and Old Testament, and it's about the hardening of one's heart. And it's like, ah, like that's what it feels like. Almost like I'll have this window of like, yeah, this makes perfect sense. And then I'll kind of retreat again back to this more cold place. I don't know how to explain it in another way, but. But even like the story of The Egyptians?

[B]

Yeah. Pharaoh. You talking about Pharaoh?

[A]

Yeah, that's when I started to really first think about it. But it comes up all over the place. But, yeah, they're like, hey, can you do this? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. Totally get it. Oh, geez. Yeah, no worries, guys. And then. Nah. And then it keeps going. It keeps going. He's like, this guy really just doesn't get it. Like, what the heck is going on here? And it's like, well, something else is going on. Like, this is beyond logic because you look at it from the rational perspective and you're like, how doesn't this guy get what's happening here?

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's black and white. Come on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But then you have to think like, well, there's something else happening here. There's this other force at play, and it's. I don't know, it's just something. I mean, I was running before you came here. Reflecting upon this. It's been. It's. It's a daily reflection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know what to do with it. Yeah. But that's the fun of it. Yeah.

[B]

A lot of. I mean, we could sit here for days.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. I share all this, too. I just. I just try to give people, like, here's what's going on in my head for better for us. I don't know. But I like, I do.

[B]

Like, I think that's good. You're not afraid to ask any question at all. Yeah, a lot of people are.

[A]

It's silly. I don't. I don't. The further I go, the more I don't understand it because the further.

[B]

Especially if they go to church, they're afraid to ask questions at church. You know, I keep going back to that, but that.

[A]

But once you read it too, you're like, oh, there's a lot of people that just kind of like pick and choose here.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Wait a minute. And then. And the funny. I was laughing about this with someone. It's not funny, but it is funny. Like, the amount of people that they say they believe in this, but then how judgmental they are. And it's like, isn't the whole thing about not judging people?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Isn't that the whole concept here?

[B]

And listen, I used to be that way.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

Right Now I can confidently say, you know, I'll talk to anyone and love them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I genuinely mean that.

[A]

Well, what's helped me on that front is travel worldwide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's broken down those barriers. And once you break them down, you're like, I can't see the world different. I can't see the world the same ever again. Once you start to go abroad and in different places and even in the States, like, I get to see so much of America and I see America like I don't see whatever the nice neighborhood in Atlanta is, you know, like Brentwood, Tennessee. And people think that's America or the reality of. Of that's reality. And it's like, no, it's, it's not. And I have such. This. Once you see enough. I mean, you're, you're in all types of areas as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're seeing, you know, urban places and then backwoods places. Yep. You learn a lot more in the backwoods places. Especially in the South.

[B]

You do.

[A]

But even just driving around the south, you're like, damn. Like one of the most striking things about South Carolina the first time I was there was like, this place is pretty poor. Like go to Kentucky and, and Kentucky, Mississippi, Mississippi, West Virginia. When you're going backwards, West Virginia, you're like, this is a different planet back here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Louisiana. I mean, yeah. Yeah, Louisiana is wild. But yeah, people are living. You're like, I didn't know people in America lived like this. Yeah. It's as crazy. And you could drive for hours and it's that way. Yeah. Across a whole state.

[B]

Oh yeah, I know, I know.

[A]

Pretty wild.

[B]

Pretty wild.

[A]

Anyway, that's the journey I've been on recently. Yeah. Yeah. Just to catch you up on.

[B]

Yeah. I can't imagine traveling around the world like you do though. Like you gotta be living on a plane.

[A]

Yeah. But again, I've really reframed that. People that don't do it look at it very differently, I think. Like it's very foreign. But then once you start doing it, it becomes. It's taken a few years, especially the international travel, but it's like it's almost started to become just normal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I did, I went through customs eight times last year in a one year period. And before it was like going through customs was a big deal. I mean, you were out of the country. Like going out of the country once a year was big, but just doing it now and then again, it's like me complaining about a long flight to go to Dubai.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, fuck you, dude. Like, I have no business complaining about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I should never complain about that. And the way I've framed it now is like, this is awesome. And like this is just like the little tax I have to play to pay for this incredible opportunity. That's an easy trade. Like 12 hour flight, 15 hour flight. I'll do that any day of the week. I mean, it kicks your ass, but yeah, any day of the week. Yeah. To me, that people are like, oh, I could never do that. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Some people think like me ping pong in between Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia. They're just like, how do you, how do you do it? I'm like, it's really not that hard.

[A]

Like, well, but. And how much more color does it add to your life?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, get you a little bit of variety. Well, most people, yeah, they just, they go to the same place every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the same car, drive the same streets, listen the same shit, you know.

[B]

Same nut on the same bolt.

[A]

Just everything is the same. Which there's something to be said for routine. Like when I'm home, it's funny if you look at my GPS in the car, the little breadcrumbs, it's home, work, work. It's like a solid trail of little dots because I'm just the same. Same thing over and over and over. But I keep it so similar here because then the rest of my life is just all over the place.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it adds so much texture to my world and I would, I would trade it for nothing. Yeah. Trade it for nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's where, like, to me, it's.

[B]

Well, even. Even if you never travel again, you're a changed man.

[A]

Yes. Because of it. No, that and that, like, everything could go away today. Yeah, it could. That's the world we live in. Like, to think that, oh, yeah, I'm safe and good to go.

[B]

It can. People think. Some people are immune to that. To that. But like, it could happen to any one of us.

[A]

Anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, but. And that's also brought me a sense of peace too. Is like, no one can take this from me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, all this experience I've gained in my 20s, no one can take me, take that from me.

[B]

No, they can't.

[A]

And that. That is really, really cool. Like, everybody's so fixated on. Even I start to go down this trail. That's money and things and this and that. And I have to, like, catch myself. I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?

[B]

Like, yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah, okay.

[B]

I get distracted with cars.

[A]

Yes. And yeah, that's fine. Trust me.

[B]

I drool.

[A]

We went to in this. Like, what's, what's a. What kind of cars are you into? What's your flavor?

[B]

I mean, I don't own any of these, but I like. I like. I like a lot. I could, like. I'm a big Formula one fan. I'm a big. Those hybrid. Those hybrids, I can't remember what they're called, but. Ms, A or ms, I can't remember what's called. But it's basically. It's electric until they're about 20 miles an hour and then the engines turn on. You know what I'm talking about?

[A]

The. The. Yeah. Are they streetcars? Are they race cars? They're the race cars.

[B]

They're.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The race cars. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like the LMP one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

They come in for the. And then you can hear the electric motors, like. And then the. The engine kicks in.

[B]

It's like. Yes. That's what I'm talking about, dude.

[A]

If that doesn't make you excited. Yeah. I don't know what will.

[B]

So if I wasn't doing what I do now, I would have attempted to be a race car driver. That's literally what I. What I would have done. There's still time, but I'm in it too deep now to. To. To turn back. Maybe when. Maybe when I'm.

[A]

Well, you gotta be 50. You gotta become a rich guy. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's the only way to do it.

[A]

They had a race here in town, and I went with a friend of mine. It was like an IndyCar and before they had the GT, GT3 class. And it was like. I was looking at the names and was like, charlie Luck. Like, what the fuck? Isn't that the guy that sells rocks? Luck Stone.

[B]

Like, oh, Risk.

[A]

I sells rocks.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's like, yeah, he's also a race car driver. Like, good for that.

[B]

That is. That is. Now that. That's the dream right there.

[A]

But it's a. It's a. It's a rich man sport. But. But anyway, we. We. This is. This is a side quest that we're gonna go on. 1. I went to the Formula One race in Abu Dhabi.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I was Quincy.

[B]

I think I saw your stories from that.

[A]

Yeah. So worth the money. I spent too much money. Way too much. I spent $2,000 on a ticket.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Which is like. I spent 24 hours thinking about it. I'm like, this is a lot of money. But then I'm like, but you were there already, right? Yeah, I was there already.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, no way for kids. And. And then I was running.

[B]

Any famous people?

[A]

Dude, they Were. I was, I was right. I was the second row overlooking the main like starting grid.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

And so you're just, you just look out there. It's just all famous people. Every, everybody out there is either somebody for one of the teams or a famous person. And yeah, you know, all the famous people. And then you see this like this one guy with this giant entourage, like 50 people, and you start to realize like, oh, that's the king, that's the guy. Or you know, whatever. Abu Dhabi, like, right, that's the guy. Like he, you know, you've Jason State him. That's cool. Fine. But like that's the guy. One, that was incredible. But then two, we went to, we had a. I wanted to go to one of the car dealers. Car dealerships.

[B]

Would they let you in?

[A]

Amazingly, yes. And so we come off a job site and I have dirty ass boots, pants and an orange shirt. And like, if I see a Bugatti in the States, like, I'll ship myself, you know, It's a big deal. It's a big deal. We go into this dealership and it's weird because you're on like 15 of them. Well, you're on the side of the highway and they're not, they're not car dealerships. Like in the States there's no lot or anything like that. It's just kind of like a glass facade and you're walking down and it'll be like a store that sells like sinks. Yeah. You know, and then the next store down, it's hundreds of millions of dollars in supercars. And then the next store is like, like the Mazda dealer, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And, but we walk in and I'm like, I'm not sure if they're gonna let us in. And now they're, they're like. Yeah. You just walk around anywhere. I mean, Bugatti's everywhere. They have like, like the Mercedes AMG1. Never thought I'd see one of those Aston Martin Valkyrie. They had like five LaFerraris that you can't just go by. Yeah. A few Enzo's, McLaren F1. Like just go down the list of like a P1. McLaren P1 GTR. Yep. Porsche 918. Like many. Yeah. And then, and then just a smattering of like Lamborghinis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Ferraris.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like you almost couldn't, you couldn't believe where you were because one of these cars would just be like millions. Yeah, but, but, but just the rarity.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

I cannot believe this is even Here. Yeah, it was, it was unbelievable. But I say all that. Last year I went to Aspen and. Aspen or like Dubai, I mean, there's just some of like the finest places in the world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like where the richest people in the world are.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Like Aspen. You got Jeff Bezos hanging out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it doesn't get richer than Jeff Bezos or Prince Harry, you know.

[B]

Or, you know, Elon's richer, but.

[A]

Well, yeah, Elon goes Aspen, you know. Yeah. But I, but, but to the money thing as well. I'm looking around and I'm like, this is fine. And then that's it.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Like you think it's gonna be this like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mystical place like Dubai.

[B]

The fun part is going. Yeah, the fun part is going and looking. It's like walking in a car dealership. You know, you go, you, you order the car, you get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, it's so exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until you actually go to buy it. It's kind of fun for the first day or two driving it, but then it's like, man.

[A]

Well, like six months later, it's like a car now.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And it's just so like when I tell people about Dubai, they're like, what, what's it like, man? Like, are you just driving around like gold roads and like, is there just like the fountains just full of money and this and that's like. I mean, kinda. Yeah. Like the wealth is just insane.

[B]

I mean, technically, cuz they don't they make it rain there.

[A]

It's. They do. Yes, yes they do. But it's. It's incredible. Like it's incredible to see. But then the novelty almost just wears off immediately. You're like, okay, cool. Yeah, lots of money. Great. This is awesome. And like you're waiting for something else. Like, this is what everybody is striving for. I get. It's nice, but like, but this is it. At the same time, like I don't. And so, I mean, I find it hard to get caught up in it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. This is coming from me, who's, you know, I've worked my butt off my whole life to actually try to make some money, you know, but you know, it's. And I have not made it by any means, but I've made it more than maybe some others. But like, I don't, you know, you just can't put much weight there. It's truly not going to buy your happy. You can't really buy happiness. I think it gives you some peace in your life. Just the fact that Maybe you don't have to think about the grocery bill or something like that. But you know, some people that's. It's literally their whole focus. And that was me for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it still is a focus. Don't you have to think about it? Like I invest, you know, it's not just be, you know, I'm not gonna not invest money, you know, but my perspectives changing slightly on all that, especially since I've had kids.

[A]

How so? I'll shut the fuck up, ask some questions here.

[B]

Well, it's, it's just like, I mean your kid, My dad always taught me your child spells love, T, I, M, E, not what BMW. You're buying them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Even though I might buy my daughter a BMW one day.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, you know, anyways, like and.

[A]

Money can buy time. But you just, everybody knows that like this isn't a novel concepts that money doesn't buy necessarily happiness. But then you, I just, as you get older too, you see so many people fixated on it. Like that's, that's, that's it. And again it's like if that's really what you're after, you are going to be disappointed. Yeah, I've seen you're going to be disappointed. Like there's, there's no way around that. I just then and growing up like in a wealthy area, I have seen money destroy way more kids than it's made. Yeah. Like it's like at least a 90% destruction rate to get out, to survive. I have some friends that have made it out and I look at them like, how'd you do that? Because dude, if I was in your position, no way that would have corrupted me so fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like I'm not good enough to not be corrupted. I just fortunately didn't have it. I didn't have enough to corrupt me.

[B]

Well, we all have different desires and needs and what I call, you know, flesh patterns and you know, if you make a lot of money that can amplify those.

[A]

Yeah, that's all it does. Yeah, that's all it does. Yeah. And I used to believe too that most going back to good and evil, not to take us back there, but to take us back there. I used to think I've talked about this, it was a really naive perspective, but I used to believe because that's who I was surrounded by. Anybody who had money had created in the world. That's not at all true. Most everybody that has money in America has not created anything. They've not built businesses, They've not employed people. They've not really made the world better in any way. They have just consumed and destroyed in most ways. Or there might be some temporary creation, but ultimately it ends in destruction. And, like, that's where most money is made. It's in finance, it's in these industries that there's no creation whatsoever. And I focused a lot on, like, good and evil. Whereas, like, good is creating, is making things better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is providing value. Evil is consuming, corrupting. It's like this parasitic behavior. Yeah. Fortunately in construction, there's not a lot of that. Like, that's where there are these misconceptions of, like, people talking about fraud and this. And that's like, man, these, this road. Contractors been here forever. They must be making a shitload of money. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Dude.

[A]

If you saw their margins. Oh, that's not it.

[B]

I mean, I've been working my butt off for 10 years. I'm just now starting to get somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? Like. Yeah. I mean. And it is not, if you want to make money, do not get in the clearing industry.

[A]

No, but that. But the. But the money made, at least is. Is made based on creating value in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is. Is my belief. And there's. There's. I think that's much more aligned with humanity. Creation versus destruction. And I think our economy has been rooted in more destruction than it has been creation for decades now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hence some of the pickles we're facing. But I think we can get back to creation and creating. And I think the dirt world provides. It's one of the best industries for creating value in the world.

[B]

So I will. I'm in agreeance with a lot of what. What you're saying.

[A]

Even though your whole business is destroying the environment.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Actually, I'm preventing smoke sometimes.

[A]

So.

[B]

But like, today we got some massive burn jobs going on, so I am. Yeah. So we're polluting the environment, supposedly.

[A]

But.

[B]

But what I was going to say, just to alter your. Counter your statement there just a little bit, I will say I bring him up a lot in conversations because I've read about him a lot. I think he's maybe lost his last year's Easter egg, but he's one of the smartest people in the world, and that's Elon Musk. He's a creator and he's the richest person in the world.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So.

[A]

No, I'm not saying it's bad.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But he didn't. He didn't I don't think he did it by chasing money for money's sake.

[B]

No, he didn't. Because, I mean, look at the bets he took.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one if, I mean, he, he made his first 400 million and gambled at the, the day after.

[A]

Yeah. And. But like, but then, but then people, and people criticize that because they're like, oh, no, now you need to get diversified. And now, now I need to make a portfolio and this and that. And give your money to the people that create no value. Go figure. The finance people that say, oh, no, no, give us your money. It's like giving your money to the casino. They're the only ones that win in the equation. If you look at the math, it's like the returns are horrendous. Yeah. And so I don't. I will never demonize money. I think money is a phenomenal tool. I've seen it used as such.

[B]

Just can't become your life.

[A]

But there's so many people, like, that's the purpose. How many, how many, how much money can I stack up? It's just like, what's the point? How much do you need? What's. You're just going to keep. Just like, where are you going to even put it? And then what do you do with it? You go give it to the next generation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've seen that again. It's just, it just.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I'll. This. My wife's going to laugh at this, but I mentioned buying my daughter a car earlier. I. So right now, and I might regret this statement looking back on this episode.

[A]

Years later, but the Internet is forever, Ben.

[B]

The Internet is forever.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

So future self, you know. You know, I don't, I don't know about the statement, but anyways, you know, I'm going to try to train my kids the best to where I don't think I'm going to try to structure in life where they don't expect anything from me, but I want to provide well. And they have extraordinary skills. They. That expectation is not going to be there on them. I'm going to let them do their thing, but. I'm not going to go in the details of it. But there's a reason why I said I might buy my daughter a car and I might not buy my son a car because I'm going to make him work for it. And then I want my daughter to see what she wants in a man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In a way, they're both going to work their butts off. But in different ways. Does that make sense?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So anyways, that, that's a long, that's a long topic. So that was a dangerous topic to get into on a podcast.

[A]

We made it through. No. And I'm saying all this as a guy with no money at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I just like, I, I, I want money. I think there's a lot of cool things that can, that can happen with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also don't feel the need with. To have a 14,000 square foot house.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I don't really, I don't need a house that has rooms that I don't go into.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's where I draw the line. Like, what are you doing? What's going on here? Yeah. And I don't, I don't want to give money to my kids. I think, I think you can give them a great upbringing. I think you can give them great experiences. But I think, like, one of the best things my dad did for me was, that's it. You're an adult now. How about it, bud?

[B]

So I agree. But so, like, with my dad, he lit a spark in me because. So before I was in, before I was in business, When I created WLS a year before he died, I started farming on my own because originally I wanted to farm, but then I realized there's a thousand other things I rather do than that. But so he lent me $12,000 for my first planter because he saw the spark in me and he was like, he's not going to quit. And he's going to do what he says he's going to do. I will do that with any of my kids.

[A]

I don't see any problem in that. Yeah, I just, it gets, it gets weird when I'm like, waiting for my dad to die to get the money.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I listen to people talk about it. I'm like, I've never viewed my dad's money as my money. I'm like, dude, spend your money. Like, you worked your whole life for this money. Why are you keeping it? Like, go spend it. Go do a bunch of dumb shit like, go buy a nice car. I don't know. It's yours. Use it.

[B]

I think kids will just wind up fighting about it if you don't structure it.

[A]

And then people fight about it, and then it destroys families. Most of the time, the estate is not squared away. And even if it is squared away, you can start to do squirrely things with it again. It just. So many weird things Happen. But even, like, the concept of me just hanging out, waiting for my dad to die so I get a million bucks or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like. Is that not weird?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is weird. Yeah.

[A]

And then for me, it's like, I don't want to wait for my. Like, I don't. I don't want my future dictated by someone else in their terms. I don't want it on their terms. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm going to hang out until my father gives me money and then I can get things going. That's.

[B]

Well, that's.

[A]

What if he lives to 100?

[B]

You want your kids, like, you're saying, you know, not to expect anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be grateful and to be humble, but to work their butts off, you know, I firmly believe that God gives us gifts to do certain things. I don't care if it's starting a construction company, if it's playing golf, if it's being a race car driver, if it's being the President of the United States, writing or writing or playing an instrument or. Yeah. Whatever. I want them to be encouraged to do what they're. They're gifted in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

With a little bit of guidance.

[A]

Mm. Yeah. I. I'm very much in agreement. That's the fundamental problem I have with multi generational business as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is controversial in construction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's like, just the odds of the kid. Of that being their thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just. They can make it work. I've seen it. It works. I've seen it work a thousand times. But, like, I just. I'm always like, is that their thing, though? How do you know that's their thing? Like, how do you know it? Yeah. And that question would at least be in the back of my head.

[B]

Again, I might go back on these words, but if my son. He's three.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If he had in. Yeah.

[A]

I'd have two more years and he's gonna be ready.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Here's my. Here's my just young take on this. Being through what I've been through. For him to ever get that opportunity. I would probably have him build his own business by himself for years. And then if he. Now he could have a passion for what I do and he worked within the business. That's a slower track because you can't. You just can't throw someone who's not started from square one into the driver's seat. Yeah. On purpose. I would. I would have him go out and start his own Business, once he has. Done it, then he could make a decision to take, to take over potentially. Now there's a lot of details there.

[A]

But you've got like two decades.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. I've got even further. I'm even further behind.

[B]

But I.

[A]

Just like. And this is, again, it's just another ball I hit back and forth in my head. Like, even if the door is propped open for the next generation to take over a company, how much does that influence them? And then, and then you have the question of nature versus nurture. Like, I think everybody does have a path in life and then I think nurture does dictate some things as well, a lot. But like, if the door's even cracked open, how much is that influencing things on, like, even your decision making as, as a, as a child and as a young adult. And as an adult, like, that's just what I'm not sure of. And again, I'm saying this as a guy with no kids.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my opinion, and I'm saying kind of as a person with a three year old with another baby on the way, so, like, I could look back on this 20 years from now and just cackle.

[A]

So. Well, I probably will. But like, at least. And everybody. That's the cool thing about business. There's no right or wrong way to do it. That's the cool thing about parenting. There's no right or wrong way to do it. It's life. There's no right or wrong way to do it. But if I had a business, I don't think I will when I have kids that are adults that I own. Like, I don't, I don't think that's the program I'm on that I'm just, That's just me. I'd be like, yeah, you can apply at the company. I don't know, like, here's the careers page. And sure, they'll have my last name, you know, and so that, that will potentially sway things as well. It's not. Yeah, you know, it's still not sterile, but yeah, that's at least where I'm at. Like, yeah, you can, you could work wherever you want.

[B]

I want my kids to know that I love them more than anything except my wife and God. And. But they won't necessarily get any handouts.

[A]

Sure. Yeah, that's. Can we completely. We can shift gears, handbrake turn, going 180 different. Because I have something in my head that came up that I wanted to ask you about. And I want to ask it. Before I forget, what's the deal with those? Is it tiger cat or somebody else? They build these. They're on tracks, and you put the logs and shit in the top and.

[B]

It just burns it and has a.

[A]

Little conveyor with charcoal into a bin or whatever.

[B]

It's a curtain burner on tracks. But they got another term for it.

[A]

It. Does that actually work?

[B]

I've had no firsthand experience with a tiger cat or just.

[A]

Yeah, but regardless of brand, like, does it burn fast enough?

[B]

It burns maybe faster than a burn pile. Like open burning. Maybe a little bit. But the problem is you can only put so much in it.

[A]

That's what.

[B]

See, fire multiplies.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So whatever pile you light on fire, it's going to, like, if you're open burning, it's going to multiply around that. That pile. But like, if you are using a curtain burner, it's a certain cubic footage and then it's just burning that certain cubic footage at a really good speed. I would argue. There's some people who argue back and forth that it's faster than grinding. I don't think it's faster than grinding or chipping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where it saves you is you don't have much byproduct, so you don't have to haul off the mulcher chips.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But no one gives a crap about that if you're in their way, so.

[A]

Yeah, I see, I see, I see.

[B]

Yeah, I see.

[A]

But it's. It's. There's technically an argument to be made for it in certain situations where you probably can't just open burn, but you also don't want to be the. The economics, for whatever reason, don't allow for hauling a bunch of.

[B]

Here. Here's where we're kind of at. We. We either open burn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or we grind and chip. We do. No in between. Lots of times to burn with a curtain burner, you have to have. You still have to get a burn permit. So it's not like you can just show up in downtown Nashville and grind and With a curtain burner and throw wood in it and burn it off. You have to show up in a grinder. There's no burning in Davidson County.

[A]

I see. At all. Really.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Regardless of.

[B]

Regardless of how you're. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a. There's a lot of stuff that's not.

[B]

Allowed in Davidson county, but in other counties.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well.

[A]

But what is allowed in Davidson county is homelessness, crime, you know, But.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, we won't get into that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can't burn stuff.

[B]

So you can't burn stuff.

[A]

All right, good. Thank God.

[B]

So you still have to have the burn permits to use it. And it makes no sense to use that if you can open burn.

[A]

Is it. What does it use for fuel? Diesel. Propane.

[B]

Diesel. And it's got just a jet. It's got a diesel engine on it. And then. And then it's got a jet that's literally blowing air into the bottom of the. Well. They're kind of like a roll off box.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so it burns.

[A]

Burns hotter.

[B]

Oh yeah, it burns super hot. It's like a jet engine blowing into the bottom of it. Gets scorching hot.

[A]

I'm sure they're not cheap though.

[B]

I think they're anywhere from. 85,000 to 120,000.

[A]

That's not that cr. That's not.

[B]

I mean, it's literally a steel box with an engine on the. Yeah, yeah. Grinder is anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5. Yeah.

[A]

Woof. And it's constantly eating itself.

[B]

It's constant eating itself. Yeah, yeah. Don't even get me started. So damn.

[A]

What kind of. How many grinders do you have right now?

[B]

Just got a grinder and a chipper.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think we're about to maybe get another one. I am about to buy a feller.

[A]

Buncher though, because last time I talked to you, you were borrowing somebody's Komatsu foul buncher.

[B]

We've rented some, we've used some.

[A]

Contract.

[B]

Cutters that have been awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we'll always do that. Like you're never going to have enough equipment. Like we're always going to be relying on people in our industry that do some of the same kind of work just for workload. I mean, you're never. You're simply never going to be able to take care of all the work.

[A]

Well, and in a place like Middle Tennessee, there's not like the volume of wood.

[B]

I guess there's more than you think.

[A]

There's more than you think, huh?

[B]

Yeah. There's what? Yeah, it doesn't look like it, but like, I get what you're saying. There's more tonnage or board foot per acre in the state of Georgia.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

Than Middle Tennessee. But there's a lot of ground to be cleared, honestly. Everywhere. Yeah.

[A]

I guess I don't ever get out, so I don't see it very much. But anything that needs to be developed in Middle Tennessee, you're clearing. Yeah, yeah. What kind of feller buncher?

[B]

Tiger cat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

8, 30 nice.

[A]

I feel like that's the Cadillac.

[B]

It just doesn't matter in my head a lot. I'll catch a lot of flack over this, but I just, I, I'm. I'm really not much of a brand loyalist. And still I started using Tiger Cat equipment. They don't make money off their parts. Mm.

[A]

And it's all they do.

[B]

Yeah, that's all they do in there. I believe they, they're their own steel manufacturer, so they're just built different. They got a, they got a new grinder out now, a tiger cat 6900. And it's a, it's a clutchless machine. So the, the mill that rotates in those machines uses a clutch system on pretty much all grinders now. And they're all the same clutches, but depending on what size grinder you have, they run anywhere from 60 to $90,000. Depending on. I mean, I mean, a grinder. I mean, it has so many expensive parts on it. Well, Tiger Cat eliminated that whole clutch and it's just a belt driven system. That tension, it tensions itself. And so there's a 60, 70, 80, $90,000 clutch you don't have to worry about.

[A]

What kind of grinder do you have?

[B]

I have a Vermeer.

[A]

A Vermeer? Yeah.

[B]

And then I, I got a Bandit 2590 whole tree chipper. It's 750 horsepower and the grinder is a thousand horsepower.

[A]

Those are, they're just crazy machines. Machines. My friend Josh, he has a few. Now they're branded Aztec. What were they before, Peter Peterson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was Peterson. Now they're Aztec. He's got a few of those in California.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn, are they fun to watch. Yeah, I mean, they just chew and chew and chew. I mean, it's a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But damn, is it cool to watch?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Really going.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Just the volume you can put.

[B]

You ever watched or a lot of people don't know the difference in them. Have you ever watched a chipper?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

A chipper can be twice as fast as a grinder on the same tree. But it can only take clean material.

[A]

I was gonna say a grinder can just hog through whatever.

[B]

A grinder can hog through whatever. Yeah, but a chipper's half the cost. But twice the speed.

[A]

So what's the. On a chipper, how does it work internally? What's doing?

[B]

So it's all the same except your mill, they run at different speeds. Typically a little less horsepower. Like for example, my chipper on the Same material will chip twice, probably twice as fast as my grinder will. But 750 horsepower version versus a thousand because it's using knives. There's more maintenance on the chipper as far as your mill and knives and different things. There's these things. You have to sharpen the knives, you have to babbit the knives. That's where you. Every time you take a knife out, you shave the rest of the knife down to where it's sharp again. And then you. You. They babbitt it where they're adding lead to the back of the knife to make up the space. You just cut off and then you put it back in the chipper. Wow.

[A]

So. But the chipper is like you're basically.

[B]

Cutting the tree up, whereas it's cutting it. Imagine a razor blade versus a hammer. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Whereas the. Yeah. The grinder is. You're pulverizing the tree.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's like.

[B]

Well, you're. But see, we don't grind. Grind trees. We chip trees and we grind stumps.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. I see.

[B]

Now some people just grind everything. It doesn't make compute to me.

[A]

Like, that's what Josh does. He just grinds everything.

[B]

Yeah, well, he's probably doing a lot brush.

[A]

Yeah, well, he's pulling whole trees out of the ground.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's all citrus or like almond trees. So it'll be the root system and everything that they just feed right through.

[B]

Anything like 6, 6, 7 inch and down. It's kind of all the same with a grinder. Right. Like, as long as it's not auto feeding, it'll feed through that stuff fine. That basically is where it's hitting something and then spinning the mill back up and then it's running it again. A chipper has a. Will take a larger diameter tree because it's using knives with auto feeding less. So it's all about your diameter. You can still send trees through the grinder. Yeah, but we try to sort our jobs out where we're grinding stumps or scrub. If it's just been grub and still got the stump attached, then everything else that's been feller bunched gets sent through the chipper. Unless if it's marketable.

[A]

I see. So you'll try to. So. So if there's nice wood, you'll try to sell it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then whatever isn't sellable, you chip. You chip. And that's all cut by feller buncher. Yes, ideally. Because then it's clean.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you got to get the. The butt off the log. By the stump.

[A]

Yeah, you gotta get stump off. Yeah. So the fellow buncher just comes through.

[B]

Lays it all down.

[A]

You just, you, you lob the tree off at ground level. Ish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A foot off or whatever it is. And then yeah, you can lay it down in piles which makes it a little bit more efficient for feeding for the chipper.

[B]

Well, so depending on the job, most jobs you'll send the feller buncher in the skidder will come in and grab the bunch of piles and then it goes to the landing. You cut the logs out, all the junk wood goes through the chipper. Then you start grubbing and as you're grubbing then your grinder will go around to all your grinder piles. Unless if it's an export job. And then you consolidate those, those stump piles and then you grind at the landing as well.

[A]

Okay. So you just leave your chipper at.

[B]

The landing most the time. Unless if it's a right away.

[A]

I see, I see, I see, I see, I see. Okay, okay, okay. So yeah, so you'll have a skidder, you'll drag your trees there and then you'll feed the trees through with what an excavator?

[B]

Typically. Yeah, just excavator. Sometimes we'll use a feller buncher to feed the chip or if, if we're short on excavators or you know, there's nothing else to cut, you know.

[A]

And then you end up with a pile of chips.

[B]

And you end up with a pile of chips or you're chipping into a truck. Live loading or into a truck.

[A]

Yeah, I have seen that, I've seen that in Mississippi. Yeah, it's pretty slick. It's really slick. If you end up with a pile of chips then you use just a loader to throw it in a truck.

[B]

Yeah, you can use an excavator or.

[A]

Wheel loader and then. Okay, so that's what you do with trees. Then the stumps you use an excavator with.

[B]

Depending on the ground you're either going to use, you're either going to use an excavator a kg on a D8.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or a stump grinder or stump grinder depending on it all depends. Like lots of times on right aways you'll use a stump grinder or if you, if you have a job that has a lot of topsoil on it and there the contractors find mixing it into the topsoil, you'll stump grind everything on site, they'll just mix it in. Or you will use a kg on a D8 where it's splitting and rolling the stumps out of the ground. And then you just consolidate everything. Or if it's wet or on a hill, you'll just use excavators and the KG or rock.

[A]

The KG is my favorite. Do they use that much in Tennessee though?

[B]

Not much.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say. I don't think I've ever seen it here.

[B]

We'll use it every once in a while.

[A]

It's insane to watch. It is the coolest thing because it's this like. For people that haven't seen this, this fixed blade on the front of the eight that's like. The angle is extreme.

[B]

It's a spear. You're spearing stumps out of the ground.

[A]

And then. And then the leading. The leading part of the blade is like. It's like a spear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's pointed sometimes like serrated even. Yeah. And you just drive it right into the stump.

[B]

You're talking about. So the. A KG has a spear on one side.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. I thought you were hands.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you're just. You're using one side the blade to kind of go and split the stump and pull it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. We saw it in. Don't call.

[B]

Someone's calling me right now.

[A]

That's all right.

[B]

We.

[A]

I've seen it a lot in the Carolinas, like tearing out the pine stumps real quick. And then we went to a job in Virginia. This was like six or seven years ago where it was. I love the irony of putting a solar farm in on the east coast because you have to clear and grub hundreds and thousands of acres sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they don't want to show that. No, we don't want to show that part. But it was. They must had 15 eights and nines out there with KG blades.

[B]

Yeah. And that's some serious ground. And you'll get anywhere from three to six acres a day caging per machine.

[A]

Yeah. So they had those just. Just going to work on the stumps and then they had sixes with rakes on them to then sweep it all up. Yeah. And then grind it. It was really cool to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we got kicked off the site. Yeah, yeah. Someone. Someone didn't like us there. They actually called the sheriff that time too. That was really special. This was.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

It was years ago, though. Yeah. Okay. And then right away. How much right away work is there? I always get excited when I see A right away job. Yeah.

[B]

There's actually a lot of. We're not tied into that. Just a whole lot. Lots of times we're doing it for contractors and developers we're working for. There's a lot of work with like tva, Georgia Power.

[A]

The power lines.

[B]

Yeah. But there's a lot of contractors that have been doing that for years and.

[A]

Like a Phillips and Jordan or something.

[B]

Phillips and Jordan. Yeah. That's a big one.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So there's a lot of others.

[A]

I'm sure there's. Yeah. Probably 100 I've never even heard of.

[B]

Yeah. Especially south law of them are owned by other excavation contractors.

[A]

There was one a long time ago. I think it was maybe Blue Rock.

[B]

Blue Ridge. I think it's blue.

[A]

That's like a. It's like a goat logo.

[B]

Yeah. Out of. I think we've talked about this before. I think they're from up north somewhere maybe. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I saw they had a hell of a spread one time in North Carolina.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Clearing for pipeline.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big spread or maybe power line.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was awesome to see how many machines they had. Yeah. Yeah. The right of way stuff is cool. I always get excited when I'm driving around the south and I see a. I come up on a fellow.

[B]

Nothing like it, dude.

[A]

Yes. And I'm nearly crashing as I drive drive through the area trying to see the feller buncher or the Skitter.

[B]

You need to keep. You need to. You need to. You need to find a job where they got one of those tiger cat 6009, hundreds on it.

[A]

That's a grinder.

[B]

Yeah, that's the. That's the grinder that they came out with a couple of years ago. It's got self leveling on it. So this is my theory. They didn't tell me this is my theory. But they took the money from the clutch and they put it in this leveling system and they have a proven leveling system on art from all their bunchers and they slapped it on. On a grinder. So you. You can literally tilt and move and level your grinder on a hill. A 90,000 pound machine.

[A]

And it's on. It's so. It's on tracks.

[B]

It's on tracks. So I mean you know what a grinder looks like. Imagine that with a leveling system on it.

[A]

That's pretty sick. Well the. And again, for people that don't know like the Tiger Cat. Tiger cat feller buncher, you're typically. There's not that many of them in the South Southeast but there's, they're everywhere in the Northwest.

[B]

Talking about a self leveling buncher.

[A]

Well, we have bunchers in the southeast. Yeah. But I mean most cutting in the southeast is done by rubber tire punchers. Production work.

[B]

Production work, yes.

[A]

Up in the Pacific Northwest and then Canada, like British Columbia, almost everything is on a hill.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so the machine will be sitting on the hill, but then the cab will be level.

[B]

Yeah. So there's actually in the Southeast more leveling machines than what you think because of right of way work and roadside work. So out west I cannot, I think it's a 870. An LX870. It's a larger self leveling machine. Like a behemoth, like giant. Yeah. They're ginormous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the Southeast you, you have three types of cutters. You're going to probably have a 724 or 726 tire cutter for your flat. Semi flat work, which I would say.

[A]

That does the bulk of the cutting.

[B]

In the south, especially for loggers or pulp wood. They're doing, you know, production pine plantations and things like that. Then the next Model is a 855 non leveling track buncher which is used in the swamps. I've seen that they're a wide pad machine that is on perfectly flat ground, but it goes through the swamps because it has flotation. And then there's the LX830 which is the most popular bunch or that Tiger Cat makes in the southeast. I would, I would say it's a smaller, it's, it's, it's a dumbed down version of the 870.0tail swing, but it's leveling and that's what most people have.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So you're either, most people either have a tire buncher or LX830.

[A]

I wonder what I'm going to see one in the northwest on Tuesday.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My friend Ryan, he runs one and it's, he's, he does a lot of tethering work. Okay.

[B]

I bet you it's 870.

[A]

Probably an 870.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he rolled his last 870.

[B]

All right. It's a tiger cat.

[A]

Well, yeah, yeah, but it, but it totaled the machine, I think.

[B]

Oh dang.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Never mind.

[A]

Because the terrain is so extra extreme. Like the, what they work on is insane. I mean it's like it's tethered to the top to another machine. So the terrain is so steep that they, that they have a steel cable attached to the buncher just to allow the machine to stay put on the hill.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

As it's working. And then it has a big chain from the cable to the buncher just in case. So this the buncher can't cut itself.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Can't cut the free itself from the cable because it'll go right.

[B]

I've never thought about that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No it'll. It'll just cut right through the steel cable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a super heavy duty chain. And then I mean it's, it's, it's. I've only seen it twice.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's like the most. One of the most unbelievable things in the heavy equipment kingdom. I've watched though. And then just the size of the trees out there are so much bigger than the pine we have in the, in the, in the south. And they're. I mean and they're on like a. Like a 40 year cycle or something like that. They've been growing there for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But this, I mean these machines, it can. He can just grab a tree and then the last time they weren't yarding it so he needed to get the trees down to the bottom of the hill and he just grab a tree and then with fell bunch of just eat it. Just throw these enormous, enormous trees just down the hill.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

And it's like.

[B]

That is a different world.

[A]

And the whole time you're in a five point harness because if the thing does go over you're in for a ride.

[B]

Some of those guys need to move this way. They could find some work out here, I bet.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah it is. I found it is more sophisticated over there just because the terrain allows for it and I think the wood is just higher dollar so like the economics allow for fancier stuff. Yeah, it's fancy. I'm excited. It's. The Tiger cats are some of the coolest machines out there.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

So I didn't even know you've always done land clearing. I know you've dabbled in demolition.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then maybe six months ago I was looking, I think I was on Instagram or LinkedIn or something like that and I saw a truck and I'm like huh, yeah.

[B]

So specifically with, with what we do, reaction time is a must. And we were spending so much money a year which I know there's argument there with trucking. It's a big liability and different things. But like it was for the size company we are. It was extreme amount because you're moving.

[A]

Stuff all the time.

[B]

All the time. It's every day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're like okay. So about a little over a year and a half ago, we formed a company, completely separate entity here in Nashville. And in the past year we started heavy hauling for hire. But it's also for our own operations.

[A]

Yeah. Because to make the economics work, you still have to move to get utilization kind of. Kind of.

[B]

But you don't want to know what for higher trucking insurance costs. You think it computes.

[A]

But maybe not.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, it was like we were kind of like we're going to go, go big or go home with it. And we're like be okay. This was kind of the kicker. If we were just doing local hauling, we probably wouldn't have done it for hire. But we have so much out of state work that we're like, we have to run new trucks. Like we're not, not going to run new trucks. We're not going to, you know, send our drivers down to Atlanta and then be broken down on the side of the road.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So we're like we're going to get new trucks, we're going to keep them new. We're going to get the top of the line, you know. And, and so that led us into the four hire because lots of times like if we're, if we're moving, you know, our machines down four or five hours away somewhere, you try like back haul or something, they'll get a backhaul.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But per talking on a monthly basis, like I'm not exaggerating. The insurance is 30 times the cost of not for hire.

[A]

What on a truck.

[B]

How much is it like for one heavy haul truck if you want to haul within 500 miles? Uh huh. One heavy haul. And if you're doing it legal. Okay, sure.

[A]

Yeah. With like a, like a low bed trailer. Yeah. Okay. This isn't crazy stuff.

[B]

So it's not hazmat. It's not hazmat. It's not super loads like top. Like if you want to haul something up to 120k and you're hauling within 500 miles and you're doing it for hire, you're going to be spending 6 to $7,000 per month per truck.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's more than the truck costs and the trailer cost per month. So yeah, so we hit that really aggressive. We saw some opportunities, opportunity and we're just like, we're gonna, we're just gonna roll with it.

[A]

So that's what I saw though because I was like. I was looking at the picture truck. I was like, that's a nice truck. Yeah, that's a really nice truck. Yeah.

[B]

And we. We have a couple trucks right now.

[A]

So I was gonna say. Yeah, I. I wanted to ask you about it because we hadn't talked about it.

[B]

We. Cooling towers to Nissan Stadium, the new.

[A]

Yeah, I saw that, too. Yeah, I saw those pictures.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because I. Because I think I saw the picture of the truck. I was like, huh? And then I saw dropping off. Yeah. The cooling units to the stadium. I was like, wow, they're really moving shit around. Like, they're really trucking company if they're not.

[B]

Like.

[A]

I thought you were just moving excavators and stuff like that.

[B]

Well, that's primarily. That was a unique request, but, yeah, it was a heavy, dense load that had to be hauled.

[A]

Do you have a yard or anything or.

[B]

Yeah, we got a yard over in Lebanon. Yeah.

[A]

But that's. That's the funny thing about your businesses.

[B]

It used to be in Murfreesboro, but now most your.

[A]

Yeah, you don't. You don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, Murfreesboro has come a long ways.

[B]

Yeah, it has. Yeah.

[A]

Most your work's up here, but you live down four hours away. Yeah, like, that's a whole other complexity.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm up here quite a bit. Like, you know, lots of times people don't really even notice them down there. I just work from the office, and then when I got to be up here, I'm up here, you know.

[A]

Is it all clear?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

For the most part.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't know there was that much going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't even know. I don't. People ask me what's going on. Middle Tennessee. I'm like, I don't have a clue. I could tell you more about what's going on in Southern California than I can in Nashville. I don't even know.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting, you know, how you get plugged in in certain markets, but if you're not. If you don't know the right people and you're not talking to them every day, you don't know what's going on.

[A]

You know, I almost forget I live here sometimes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And then. And then when I'm here, like, the last thing I want to do is go out to a trip job site.

[B]

Well, They've just cleared 300 acres around my house in Georgia, and I never.

[A]

Knew anything about is. Funny how that works.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So have you thought about anything with, like, the Railroads or anything like that or the right of way stuff.

[B]

Some. I mean. Yeah. I mean, too tricky. If the opportunity comes, we'll do it. I mean, we have the safety record. We have all of that set up to where we can do that work. It's just someone at the right times got our approaches.

[A]

Yeah. And it's kind of a boys club in a way.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like it is.

[A]

And they don't want you in. It's like the club's full. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's some other. There's some other things there, like.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because I would have thought, like, the railroad probably has a lot of clearing, especially after storms and that kind of stuff. I'm sure there's all kinds of stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I know some people personally that. I mean, that's their gig, you know. Just railroads.

[A]

Yeah, well, yes.

[B]

And pipelines.

[A]

Yeah, and pipelines are another one. And then power is a whole other.

[B]

When you live in a rural area and you want to be in this business, that's what you have to do.

[A]

Do you do any, like, maintenance? You don't do any mowing?

[B]

No, we used to do a little bit of everything when I first. You have to. When you get started, until you get your niche. But no. The short answer is no, because that's.

[A]

A. I guess there's not as much of that.

[B]

We try to do one thing, you know, really good clearing. Yeah. And then we dabble in some demolition when a client needs us to.

[A]

Sure. But it's probably part of a clearing project at times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They. Man, they reached out. There was a big demolition job. There was the airport. They're like, hey, we're going to tear down part of the airport. Like, let me know when it's happening. And then I go to the airport the other day and that's down on the ground. Son of a. You guys are supposed to call me. Yeah. Well, now it's gone now. Now I'm too late. Great. Yeah. That always sucks. Or I was looking like, even yesterday, I was looking at like the Suez Canal expansion. And I was like, yeah, 2015. I'm looking at it and just the scale of it. I'm like, damn it, I missed it.

[B]

Everybody so busy. Everybody's so busy they can't remember to call you.

[A]

No, I, like, I don't take it personally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But have you seen how much work is going to come up at the airport? They're only getting going.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, they've been. I mean, they've been working over there for years, but. Yeah, I'm talking about right by. Beside the road. There's been. Recently they just put the bridge in.

[A]

Well, yeah. It took them like, five years to figure out how to build a bridge. I don't. Yeah, I don't. I think it's just the pace of work moves slower over here than I'm used to in place like Arizona or Texas maybe, or maybe it went as fast as possible. I don't know. But it seemed like they were doing it forever. But anyway, I mean, I'm sure they made a bunch of money. I'm sure it was great production, no problems, so on and so forth. I don't know anything about it, so I'm talking on my ass. But their kiewit is filling in the hole in the middle of the airport right now.

[B]

It's crazy how many contractors have worked at that airport.

[A]

Everybody and their mothers worked at the airport.

[B]

But, like, they've. I think they've just bid it out in sections.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's been very piecemeal. But, yeah, kiewit, they're. They're there filling in the hole in the middle of the airport right now. God forbid they let anybody come out to visit a kiewit job. That would just never, ever, ever happen. So I haven't even asked because they'll tell me to beat it, kid. But then the real. Have you seen they're building a whole nother terminal?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

They're expanding. They're building a new terminal on the existing airport, but then they're gonna build another airport.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

At the same. Same spot, but. But not the same spot. It's where, like, the private aviation stuff is. They're gonna tear all that down, and they're gonna build the same size airport terminal that exists today up there.

[B]

So that reminded me, have you seen where the boring companies here. Have you seen that?

[A]

Yes. I drive by when I go to.

[B]

Swim downtown, and it's gonna pop up right behind the Ferrari dealership.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Okay, I can't. That does it. That breaks my brain thinking about that.

[A]

I thought. I thought it was like, yeah, we're thinking about it. But then I drove by it the other day doing it, and I was like, it's like a. Like a head frame. And I was like, what the fuck is that? And then the next day, I drive by it, and there's a cyber truck sitting out outside of it. And I'm like, no way. That's the boring company.

[B]

I mean, I don't here's my. I don't even know how. I don't even know how you get permission to do that.

[A]

I don't like.

[B]

That's insane.

[A]

It is insane.

[B]

You're going under the city and interstates.

[A]

Yeah, but it is insane. I don't know how.

[B]

I think they're going under the river. I don't think. I don't think. There's no way they're going under the river.

[A]

They have to go into the river to get to the airport. They have to. From downtown.

[B]

No, no, they don't. No, they don't.

[A]

I think.

[B]

No, I don't think that. I think we're all south of the river right now.

[A]

Yeah, but, but, but people.

[B]

So, so it's funny.

[A]

Like, my every Uber driver I have go to the airport, they'll bring up the boring company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they all say the same thing. They're like, there's just. There's too much rock around here. How are they going to make a tunnel? And I'm thinking, I don't. I don't ever talk to them about tunneling, but I'm like, you actually want to tunnel through rock? That's the best. The best kind of tunneling you can get is through whatever we have here. It's solid rock. It's great. But I am amazed that they somehow even got it permitted and this and that. I want to go see it, though. Yeah. I want to go reach out to somebody at the boring company to tour it. I doubt. Doubt it'll happen, but I really want to go see it.

[B]

Well, you know what they. They say is you never bet against Elon either.

[A]

Dude. I see.

[B]

That just breaks my brain that he's flying rockets and putting a tunnel through Nashville.

[A]

Yeah. And building one of the world's biggest car companies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And doing neuralink and building the whole, like, a much better Internet.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, you just. You keep going down the list like, huh? And then people will be like, the guy's an idiot. Like, how many rockets have you built?

[B]

Yeah, like.

[A]

Like, what's. What's on your. What's on your space exploration resume? All right. Like, I don't know if the guy's an idiot. Like, that's not the word. There might be some other words, but I don't think that's one of them.

[B]

Yeah. It just breaks my brain.

[A]

Yeah. I. The born. Yeah. There's actually a picture I saw recently. It's like the wind and it's the tunneling, the TBM coming. Coming up out of the ground in front of the wind. And I'm like, okay, all right.

[B]

They're serious.

[A]

They poke toes all over Vegas.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's kind of a party.

[B]

Well, at Conex. Yeah. We were.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Using it.

[A]

Yeah. You can go back and forth. It's kind of a party trick, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not.

[B]

Well, that. Isn't that one of the first ones they did?

[A]

I think it was the first one commercially.

[B]

Yeah. So I think they were just using it, like, as a test or something, you know, be.

[A]

I'm really interested to see how the national one works. And then it's. You know what's funny too, about the Nashville one. So they say, and it was like maybe six months ago, it wasn't even that long ago that they said there was a tunnel coming. People are getting upset about it. It's like, what is there to get upset about? They're making a tunnel. They're paying for it. Yeah. What's the problem?

[B]

Probably because just Elon, like, are you.

[A]

Aren't there other things?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

I have a hundred. Are the things I'd complain about first in this town, then Elon digging a tunnel under it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I know.

[A]

And it's so. It's so minimally invasive that I didn't even know is happening. And I like tunnels. Like, I'm a tunnel guy and I didn't even know about it.

[B]

So maybe you can get him on the podcast. I don't have him come out here.

[A]

And visit, you know, maybe. Maybe shoot for the stars, huh? Yeah, I do. I really. I want to go see the tunnel. Tunneling. Yeah, I do want to go see it. I've seen really large diameter tunneling. Largest in the world twice, I think I've been in two giant TBMs, and then I've been in TBMs doing Metro, which is pretty big diameter, but still smaller. Kind of like a little bigger than this room, but not way bigger. But then I think this is even this. This is smaller. Yeah, it's like kind of on the small side of a tbm. It's not like the diameter is not that big in the. In the tunneling world anyway, so I want to see how they're doing it.

[B]

Yeah. All I know is where it's going. That's the only details I know about it.

[A]

So.

[B]

Anyway, I really don't think it's going on to the river, though. I had a thought about that. I don't think it is.

[A]

After done with this, I'll look at the map yeah, yeah. No, maybe it doesn't have to go.

[B]

Well, it comes down. Elbows back up.

[A]

Yeah. It has to go under. Under the city. It go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It goes under 24 or wherever. 24 ties into the loop because have.

[A]

You seen where it's pop. Have you seen where it's popping up over here?

[B]

Haven't seen this. When I've seen the other end.

[A]

Oh, I haven't seen the other end. I've seen this end. It's like a parking lot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, just like this random ass parking lot.

[B]

You might be able. You'll be able to take that to the airport from your office. Yeah, well, I have to drive there anymore.

[A]

If I somehow Uber, I guess I could park at the parking lot right there. Maybe there'll be like a little Elon station.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I get in one of.

[B]

The maybe actually parking your parking lot and walk over.

[A]

Well, it's a technically.

[B]

Oh, it's a little further. What?

[A]

I thought it's probably two miles from here.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh, okay. Okay. Nevermind.

[A]

No, yeah.

[B]

It's not right. I thought you literally meant it was popping up over here, like beside the building.

[A]

I'll use it. I'll give it a try. And maybe I give it a try. I'm like, this is the best thing ever. Yeah. They should make tunnels everywhere. This is the problem to congestion because, you know, again, people complaining about the tunnel. Well, Nashville's certainly not doing anything about the congestion here. Like, they don't have any grand plans to make the roads bigger. So, like. And it's just. I mean, you do the drive enough. Chattanooga has gotten a little bit better now that the construction.

[B]

A little bit finally.

[A]

But it's still jacked up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Atlanta is just always going to be a crapshoot. Yeah, that's. That is a wild card. And then you get up. You get up into Nashville. Getting up here is not so bad, but once you get into town, dude, game over. Whatever direction, whatever time of day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just jacked up. There's no. There's no good way to do it. Yeah.

[B]

I'm just. I'm just used to it at this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what I'd do without a cell phone to be productive while I'm, you know, at least I can talk while I'm driving.

[A]

Get rid of your truck. Going to drive itself pretty soon.

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

Hang out in the bed, but sleeping bag back there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

All right, well, since we're talking about Nashville traffic, we'll wrap up. Yep. Glad you could come by. I honestly like doing this better. Making it. Catching up over a podcast.

[B]

Yeah. It's pretty fun.

[A]

More productive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than dinner or whatever, but. Yeah. Thanks for coming.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Maybe I'll see a job one of these days.

[B]

One of these days. It's only been. How long has it been since you moved here?

[A]

20. 20.

[B]

Okay, so it's been six years since we met, and you haven't been one of my job sites.

[A]

One day.

[B]

One day. We didn't meet at the tornado one time.

[A]

Yeah. I forgot about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. We went to Kentucky. Yeah. Dude, that. That was one of those life experiences. It's like.

[B]

Yeah, that was crazy.

[A]

That'll. That'll be with you the rest of your life. Yeah. Seeing that. Because I didn't. You. Had you seen tornadoes before?

[B]

Not that extreme.

[A]

I'd never seen a tornado before. And so I thought, like, again, very naive, like, all right, a tornado is just some wind and storm that comes through. Like, I'd be good in my car. You know, like, worst case scenario, I just hang out my car, and the tornado goes right by me. And then you get. We got out to Kentucky, and you have whole train cars that have just been yeeted across fields. Yeah. And I was looking at that. I was like.

[B]

And literally, a town flattened. When I say a town flattened.

[A]

Gone.

[B]

Mayfield. Like, literally the center of the tornado was the town square.

[A]

Gone. Gone. And I remember seeing the stop signs wrapped around the poles. They were mounted to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's just like, what. There was that much force that came through here to wrap the stop signs around the poles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just. And, yeah, the town was just vaporized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then I've seen. I'd seen fire, and fire is very different because there's just nothing.