Construction Brand Magic w/ Caitlyn Cook of Emery Sapp & Sons – DT 358

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt Episode: Construction Brand Magic w/ Caitlyn Cook of Emery Sapp & Sons – DT 358
Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Aaron Witt
Guest: Caitlin Cook, Emery Sapp & Sons

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Dirt Talk, host Aaron Witt engages in an insightful conversation with Caitlin Cook, a key figure from Emery Sapp & Sons (ESS). The discussion delves into the nuances of construction branding, the evolution of ESS as a holding company, and the pivotal role of Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) in fostering employee ownership and company growth.

2. Leadership and Handling Mistakes in Construction

Aaron opens the dialogue by addressing the often rigid attitudes towards mistakes within the construction industry. Caitlin emphasizes the importance of leadership taking responsibility rather than penalizing individuals for operational errors.

Aaron [00:00]: "We've never made a mistake. It's like, really, really?"
Caitlin [45:23]: "So if I draw the parallel, leadership is the problem for not telling the story."

She highlights a scenario where an entry-level worker made an operational error, yet instead of firing the individual, the owner investigated the leadership aspects that led to the mistake. This approach fosters a culture of accountability and continuous improvement.

3. Rebranding and the Evolution of ESS

The conversation shifts to ESS's recent rebranding efforts. Caitlin explains that ESS, originally known as Emery Sapp & Sons, didn't have a distinct brand identity separate from the holding company. As ESS began acquiring more companies to fuel growth and support the ESOP, establishing a unique brand identity became essential.

Aaron [02:21]: "ESS companies. So we have ESS in the Midwest and it always operated synonymously with the holding company."
Caitlin [03:24]: "We have these other brands and we needed to have that them be able to have their legacy brand."

ESS aims to maintain the legacy and reputation of its acquisitions while ensuring that each subsidiary retains its unique identity, thus reducing hierarchical barriers and promoting a collective mission.

4. Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOP): Benefits and Sustainability

A significant portion of the discussion centers around ESOPs. Caitlin elaborates on how ESS uses ESOPs to secure employee ownership, ensuring that the company’s growth directly benefits its workforce.

Aaron [09:27]: "ESOPs are a great model But I feel like they're sold a little bit as an easy button."
Caitlin [10:37]: "We're constantly iterating that to make sure that it's sustainable for the long term."

They discuss the mechanics of ESOPs, including the buyback obligations and the importance of balancing growth through acquisitions with fair valuations to benefit employee owners and shareholders alike. Caitlin also touches on the challenges of maintaining ESOP sustainability, especially with a growing workforce and varying market conditions.

5. Marketing Strategies in Construction: Authentic Storytelling and Engagement

Transitioning to marketing, Caitlin emphasizes the need for authentic storytelling that resonates with both internal stakeholders and the broader industry.

Aaron [24:28]: "Do you have to have some fun. Like you've got to fuck around."
Caitlin [24:52]: "We need to have a good time here as well."

She critiques the often transactional and inauthentic marketing approaches prevalent in the construction sector, advocating instead for genuine narratives that highlight the human element and the impactful work done by employees. The importance of hiring marketers who understand the construction industry and can effectively translate its values is also discussed.

6. Building Relationships and Industry Events

Both hosts underscore the significance of in-person events in building lasting industry relationships. Caitlin shares insights on ESS’s regional events that celebrate stock price milestones, fostering community and enthusiasm among employees.

Caitlin [29:22]: "We have four concurrent regional events all happening at the same time."
Aaron [30:31]: "I've been really enjoying."

These events serve as a platform for celebrating achievements, recognizing individual milestones, and reinforcing the collective mission of ESS, thereby enhancing employee engagement and loyalty.

7. ESOP as a Solution for Workforce Challenges

Caitlin and Aaron discuss how ESOPs address critical workforce issues in the construction industry, such as attracting and retaining talent through shared ownership and financial security.

Aaron [34:19]: "I don't think wages are equal to the work being demanded."
Caitlin [37:09]: "I do."

They argue that ESOPs not only provide financial benefits but also instill a sense of ownership and investment in the company's success, which can lead to higher employee satisfaction and retention rates.

8. Global Perspectives: Middle Class in Australia vs. US

Aaron shares his observations from Australia, noting the strong and intact middle class compared to the United States.

Aaron [37:24]: "It's a middle class society. The middle class is still very much alive."
Caitlin [37:59]: "We are seeing it in all across the country."

They discuss the role of construction in maintaining and rebuilding the middle class, highlighting Australia as a model for sustaining a healthy middle-income workforce through robust industries like construction.

9. The Importance of Authentic Branding and Internal Support

The hosts delve into how authentic branding, supported by strong internal marketing efforts, can elevate a construction company's reputation and employee morale.

Caitlin [43:37]: "They're incredibly selfless and said, wow, to go to that next chapter, here's a path that we could do and our people would benefit."
Aaron [44:37]: "That's going to come get you. That isn't really there."

They stress that branding should not just be superficial but should genuinely reflect the company's values and the dedication of its workforce. Leadership support is crucial in enabling effective marketing strategies that authentically represent the company.

10. Future Outlook for ESS and the Construction Industry

Looking ahead, Caitlin outlines ESS’s plans for continued growth through strategic acquisitions while maintaining the unique identities of each subsidiary.

Caitlin [64:30]: "More acquisitions are coming. It's just a matter of when."
Aaron [66:18]: "Top notch organization."

They anticipate that the ESOP model will continue to play a central role in the construction industry's evolution, driving economic stability and fostering a strong middle-class workforce.

11. Conclusion

Aaron and Caitlin conclude by reiterating the transformative potential of ESOPs and authentic branding in the construction industry. They emphasize the need for courageous storytelling and strategic marketing to highlight the invaluable work of construction professionals.

Caitlin [58:52]: "You have to be there to just, like, again, but that's to be fun."
Aaron [60:18]: "No one gives a. About you. No one gives a. About your company."

Their discussion serves as a compelling case for construction companies to embrace employee ownership and invest in genuine marketing efforts to build stronger, more resilient businesses.

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Notable Quotes:

• Aaron [00:00]: "We've never made a mistake. It's like, really, really?"
• Caitlin [45:23]: "So if I draw the parallel, leadership is the problem for not telling the story."
• Caitlin [24:52]: "We need to have a good time here as well."
• Aaron [34:19]: "I don't think wages are equal to the work being demanded."
• Caitlin [37:09]: "I do."
• Caitlin [43:37]: "They're incredibly selfless and said, wow, to go to that next chapter..."
• Caitlin [64:30]: "More acquisitions are coming. It's just a matter of when."

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This episode offers a deep dive into the strategic decisions behind ESS's branding and ownership models, providing valuable insights for construction industry leaders aiming to foster growth, employee satisfaction, and robust company cultures.

Transcript

[Aaron]

And you, you, you can go down the safety rabbit hole of the dishonesty and safety that is. We've never made a mistake. It's like, really, really? Or I was, I heard a story not too long ago, I'll keep it very vague, but someone on site, entry level person, made a mistake and it was, it was a boo boo. It was a boo boo, but it wasn't their fault. Like, it, you know, just operational error happens all the time. Oh, yeah, all the time. And the owner they were working for, you know, typically a typical owner would be like, you better shit. Can that. Like, is the person fired? Like, no. Like, why are we having this conversation then? Like, that's step one. Just fire that person. And I've, I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen people, I've seen, I've seen people make a mistake in front of me and then get fired right there. It's wild. But the, the owner had the foresight to be like, no, no, no, this is an operational failure. This is a leadership failure, not a failure on that individual. You're not, you're not letting that individual go. You're looking into why this failure occurred from a leadership standpoint. It's like, wow, good for them. That, that, that's exactly it right there. Like that.

[Caitlin]

So if I draw the parallel, leadership is the problem for not telling the story.

[Aaron]

It starts at the top. Last, when we were here last, maybe a year ago.

[Caitlin]

At least. At least a year.

[Aaron]

And we talked more big picture stuff. Esop.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. Which is not a bad angle.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, within the past year since then, you've done the whole rebrand thing, which was an undertaking. What's the deal with that? Like, why even do all that?

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Cause I've been seeing it now online, like I've been seeing it everywhere now. It's there, the essentials. What is it? ESS companies.

[Caitlin]

Yeah, ESS companies. So we have ESS in the Midwest and it always operated synonymously with the holding company. It didn't really have its own brand identity, if you will.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And as we went into, as we become more of an acquirer of companies to kind of grow the enterprise, that helps fuel the ESOP and the growth. It does tie into our previous conversation. Growth is an integral part of the return on equity and the stock price growth for our people. It's part of it. We have these other brands and we needed to have that them be able to have their legacy brand. But what ties us all together. And yes, you can say esop. But it is more than that. And there needed to be a. A separation of ESS and ESS companies. So while we have like. Yeah, keep going.

[Aaron]

Well, I just want to back up a little bit. So ESS is Emory Savin Sons is the legacy company.

[Caitlin]

Subsidiary.

[Aaron]

Legacy brand. But then when it went esop, you established this holding company that owns ess. But then. Right.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. And the. And the wholly owned subsidiaries under them and then some other ancillary companies.

[Aaron]

Yeah. To. To buy over the. Especially over the past 10 years.

[Caitlin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Buy like quite a few substantial construction companies.

[Caitlin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

That were just all known as Emery Sapp and Sons. But Emery Sapp and Sons is over here as a company.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. And it was more too of like the we don't own you. It was more of we just happen to be a part of this kind of collective of badass companies working together for the same kind of. Under United, basically. It united our mission.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

Together.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. There was. I think there was some. Just confusion in the marketplace too.

[Caitlin]

Well, there was confusion even in our own internal.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Place of who. Who do you work for? Who do. What is. What is going on? What are you. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to make us become this other company? And it was like, no, we really do want to lean into that legacy. Well, that's really hard to do when all of the marketing and all of the. The. The visual identity looks and feels like the subsidiary. We're saying that, you know, is just a partner to you. There wasn't a. We wanted to reduce the hierarchy as well and give us more of a agnostic way to talk about the collective brands.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But I. That's what I've. I appreciate the way you guys have gone about it because you haven't forced everything down like the throat of Rummel and Aiken and what are you going.

[Caitlin]

To be those areas of change management and kind of. We're not so sure about these folks and trying to figure it out. Think that we've far and large have allowed them to operate autonomously in many ways and still own a lot of their local branding and not want to strip out the things that make them great, which is a lot of the reputation and the legacy of them is tied up into their visual identity and we don't want to come in and just strip that out from them. That would be, I think, an unwise choice for us.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Which I mean, a lot of acquiring companies do that like that. That's pretty standard. I would Say, nowadays.

[Caitlin]

And I think that if you're really talking about the equity of a company, the brand should be a part of that.

[Aaron]

I think it's a big part of it.

[Caitlin]

And people have a lot of pride in the company that they work for. And I think something that was really clear from the beginning for us is people don't work for holding companies. People work for the local subsidiaries. Rummel is hiring someone. You work for Rummel, and you are helping Rummel have a high performing operation with them. You're not coming to some big conglomerate that's out of touch, that doesn't see you and operate with you and stand side by side with you every day. That's not what this is about. And if anything, if we were going to put a hierarchy on it, our holding company is below them. We are a foundation. We provide resources to those brands. Each brand or each company has different levels of sophistication, has different levels of expertise. And so the holding company should provide and supplement and fill some of those gaps and be there when they need us. But down here, and. And the brands are the ones that should take center stage. We are the stagehands. I mean, that's something you guys like to say a lot.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. It's a value. We're the stage hand, something starters. Yeah, but that's. That's a great way to put it. It's the foundation. It's not the top.

[Caitlin]

It's not the top.

[Aaron]

That's pretty good.

[Caitlin]

You're down here.

[Aaron]

That makes perfect sense.

[Caitlin]

You guys, you guys go do your thing and we're here to support you.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Because if I'm, you know, a pipe player at Aiken, like a lot of the guys I worked with at Pearson went to Aiken.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I still know some of the folks over there.

[Caitlin]

They know you.

[Aaron]

It is funny. But, yeah, if I'm a pipeline at Aiken, I work for Aiken. And. And so I'm not necessarily as excited about Emory SAP and Sons, because that's not the first. That's not what I'm around all day, every day I'm around Aiken. But then knowing that, well, now that I have this, I have this, this foundation that is this bigger company as well. Yeah. Which is. I think it makes my job a little bit more robust, like secure in a way. It gives me a degree of safety, which is very important for people. And then it also gives me this whole employee ownership thing that I didn't have before.

[Caitlin]

It's security for people as well. I mean, that differentiation, the security Thing's big, you know, the. Yeah, it is. And like if, when we have some of these market downturns in different geographies and other things, I think now there's that level of security of like, we're going to be able to weather the volatility of the market because of that diversification. And it takes all of us in different ways with different specialties to be able to make that happen.

[Aaron]

Yeah, no, it's, it's, I mean, it makes sense, but it was a hell of an undertaking to get there, huh?

[Caitlin]

Just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a couple of the brands, you know, like Rummel and Aiken and ESS and Testing Labs. Right. Those are our four current operating brands. But there was a lot of other acquisitions where maybe we chose to absorb those brands over time. There's about a dozen. If you go online right now, esscompanies.com you go and you kind of look at our business succession page, kind of scroll down, you can see that history of acquiring. These are the four brands that we've chosen to, we think their legacies are worth retaining and there's a lot of equity there and we want to maintain those over time. We'll see what happens. But I mean, you know, there's different methodologies to acquiring, so.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I, I know for anybody looking to sell great business.

[Caitlin]

Call Tim. He's going to get his checkbook out.

[Aaron]

Call him. Call Tim.

[Caitlin]

FSEN 1-800-TIM-CHECK.

[Aaron]

Get it. They'll be happy to answer your call.

[Caitlin]

I know, 100%. Yeah.

[Aaron]

No, but that's, that's something I've, I've talked to him about recently too, is just the, even the changing market dynamics with acquisitions right now. Like over the past five years, it's changed dramatically. Even the past two years.

[Caitlin]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we are seeing that. I mean there's, this industry is ripe for acquisition, but the market's hot and really hot. They come at a price tag. And so yes, it is. The organic growth is still a part of our playbook, if you will, and very strong. But that takes, takes a long time and we aren't the most patient and we like to see big returns. And so that usually takes a healthy mix of, mix of acquisition. But it's at the price tag that we also have to be fair to our employee owners and our shareholders.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And make sure we're not, you know, over buying.

[Aaron]

Well, it's, it's, it's quite interesting. Like with, with ESOPs are a great model But I feel like they're sold a little bit as an easy button. That's not at all the case. It's. It's a whole different game and it's a, It's a sophisticated game.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That some are better at playing than others. Like an esf.

[Caitlin]

Also be unfair to look at Emery SAP as incredibly mature ESOP that was started in 1999 and look at it and think it was always this level return. Sure, sure, sure. During those buyback phases for the first 10 years returns were nominal, probably matched more the market and you could probably play the S and P similar to esop. And it was probably a, you know, a decent growth trajectory. Now it's insane. But that wasn't always the case. It's a. Yeah.

[Aaron]

So with the esop, just to back up you have that buyback period, you're buying. So the owner of the company.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. Think of it as an owner carry.

[Aaron]

You know, Mr. SAP, you know, whatever it is. I don't know the heck the ownership was. But for sake of conversation sells the business to the esop but the ESOP then buys like has to pay that note down. Yeah. There's a. Probably a financing mechanism involved. Tank or whatever.

[Caitlin]

Yeah, that's the ABCs. One, two, three.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

So.

[Aaron]

So all of your cash flow, all of your, your extra money you're making every year goes to paying down the debt that you now hold. Once you pay down the debt over that 10 year period now you can.

[Caitlin]

The rocket ship starts to take.

[Aaron]

Well yeah, because now you have, you have the tax benefit because you're not paying the income tax that a typical contractor has and you can start rolling that cash into more aggressive growth acquisition.

[Caitlin]

Combination of all of it and making sure you have that cash set aside for repurchase obligations as those other start to age out and leave and do other things. And so a lot of what the executive team spends a ton of their time on is looking at the mix of our ESOP and the design of our ESOP and making sure there are plan. We're constantly iterating that to make sure that it's sustainable for the long term, not just the next year. Not just with ebbs and flows or big repurchase obligation classes that might be ready to say Sarana, awesome career, I'm out. Yeah, take the money and go. Like that's what it's there for.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

But all of those people who exit it requires the injection of the next class coming up to fund, if you will, their exit.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's. It's it's exactly why Social Security will never work for somebody my age because the federal government has totally given up on any kind of obligation to, to people paying. But with an esop, you can't, you don't, you don't. You know, the federal government can get away with a lot of stuff that we cannot. Businesses, people can't. Yeah, yeah. Even though they work for us. It's funny how that works.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But yeah, you have, like you've made this promise, like you've made a promise to people that, hey, here's how much you're gonna get upon this at this date when you leave, based on current share price, etc. And then when they leave, you gotta pay them out. You can't just say, sorry, money's not there.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

And a couple like a company like ess, you have a lot of people now and they've been around for a long time. So you've got people that you owe millions of dollars to.

[Caitlin]

We are happy to pay them. Well, yeah, they have earned every bit of.

[Aaron]

That's the cool thing about it.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But you need to make sure you have the money.

[Caitlin]

Right?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Right. Because the minute you don't have that, that model starts to break really quickly.

[Aaron]

Well, because yeah, you've broken trust with people. Like it's all built on trust that I can.

[Caitlin]

And the last few years too, we've upped those con. Employer contribution percentages to help get that injection of wealth into the. Some of the folks that are newer as opposed to needing to take 10 to 12 years to have something substantial. I mean, that means something different to everyone. But I mean, we've really looked at kind of making sure that it's, it's more sustainable and it's a, not just a retention tool, but can be a little bit more of an attraction tool because let's be honest, the average person doesn't really care what they're going to get when they retire when they're 22 years old.

[Aaron]

No.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

No.

[Caitlin]

And yes, our vesting period is three years, but I mean that's still, that's. It's not doing. It's. It is a really great thing and a really amazing concept, but it still doesn't. We can't just stop there and rest on our laurels and think the ESOP is the greatest thing ever and everyone's going to get it and love it. Like that would be a mistake. One of the things that we've done the last couple of years is the stock price amount. We've issued a debit card with those funds preloaded and actually handed those out so that it's more that real time injection. And honestly, feedback from the field is like, yeah, the stock esop is great. It's never been more high performing. It's amazing. But like, where's my debit card?

[Aaron]

Yeah, and, and, and, but, and, and, but that, that makes sense because if I'm like, I'm 30, I'm not seeing that money for probably decades. Like, and so it's still abstract. Like it's just still numbered on a screen or numbers on a piece of paper. At the end of the day, like, it doesn't influence my life today.

[Caitlin]

And we look at the plan and say, okay, how can we get give people access to cash earlier? And what does that look like? But we have to have a really healthy plan to be able to have a mechanism to do that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, and this is, but this is where, See, this is where shitty employers really screw over the good employers. Because some people think that like companies are just all out for themselves, but it's like, hey, the company, the more, the healthier. If it's a good company, the financially healthier it is, the better off you are. Like, everybody wins in that scenario. You just have to untrain some people because they've been screwed in the past. Yeah, I, I've talked to a lot of, I mean, I talk to people all the time, like construction companies, they lead with like their benefits. It's like, hey, that's cool, you have benefits. Yeah, but one, you can't even explain how these work. Like, you can't even in five minutes.

[Caitlin]

Nor should you sometimes.

[Aaron]

Yeah, like you, you, you don't even know what this is.

[Caitlin]

And two, long term disability is great, but like, cool, awesome.

[Aaron]

I've spent I don't know how much money on all this stuff. I still can't explain it. Yeah, but, but two, it's like somebody that's 25, single, 25, no kids, they.

[Caitlin]

Don'T really, to be fair too, it's table stakes. It's like saying, oh, I'm a safe contract too. That should be a standard. Yeah, yeah, it should be a standard that you have good benefits, your pay is market or hey, and you're safe. Like all table stakes.

[Aaron]

You give two weeks off vacation. Like, wow, cool.

[Caitlin]

Amazing. And I'm not saying we have it all figured out, but at least it's like just, just recognize that that is not a differentiator. Let's just, let's just, let's just equalize that right now.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. And, and but, but I think the, like my father's generation, especially baby boomers, they're caught up in that because that was the differentiator when they were coming up in their careers.

[Caitlin]

The goalpost is moved.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Like, like not even seven times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the next state over. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

It changed. Conference.

[Aaron]

But that they look at it from their perspective, which I understand. Like, like stable income, you know, just consistent. Give me my 3% raise a year and if I get my promotion every five years, I have my Social Security, I have my 401k. Like, I'm good to go. Great. I can, you know, I can live a, a great life. But that even, like the economy's just changed. Like the markets just changed. Like, good for you. You've made all this money on a house. I can't even think about buying a house right now. And I know I'm on a little bit different of a plan, but it's like, it's not even a consideration.

[Caitlin]

No.

[Aaron]

Because it's just so expensive. Yeah. It's totally different.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. So what do you think? Like, you're out in the marketplace a lot. Like the, the people who are differentiating themselves. What are those? What are a couple of the ones that you feel like are working?

[Aaron]

I think it's some of the stuff I talk about. I think they, it's really simple stuff. They have, they have leaders that are visible. I think that is bigger and bigger and bigger. There are so many companies who. You have no idea who you're working for. Not a clue.

[Caitlin]

Is that the human element? You feel like they're relatable.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Connect, they can engage.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And that's where I think the construction industry has a huge advantage because it's not dominated by these corporate titans.

[Caitlin]

Suits. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Like, if I go to work at Apple, I'm not going to be like, ever.

[Caitlin]

Well, they might be in jeans and turtlenecks, but.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but like, I don't even think I'll be in the same building as Tim Cook. Like, same area code as Tim Cook. Like, I'm never going to see Ford.

[Caitlin]

A house there either.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it's, it's just so abstract. Who the hell am I working for? I don't know. But in the construction industry, most businesses even like at Emory, Sapp and Sons, in the grand scheme in like the corporate world, it's not a giant business.

[Caitlin]

No. It's not a middle market to most.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's a, it's a middle market business. So it's still Very accessible. Like Tim is still very accessible. The lead. And then Tim is one of many leaders within the business. But I just know the. The best. Some of the best companies, they have really visible leadership. So that. Me, I know if I'm. And this is how I was out in the field, like if Mr. Pearson was out there, I just. I was willing. I felt like I was part of something bigger. I felt like he cared. I felt like people lead, don't.

[Caitlin]

Companies don't lead, but people lead. And yeah, to see.

[Aaron]

Exactly.

[Caitlin]

I want to follow people.

[Aaron]

Exactly. I want to. Yeah. I want to know who I'm. Who I'm with, who I'm work. It's. It goes so far. So that's a really simple one. I think really great companies, they take a lot of pride in appearances and details. So their people look good. They have great company apparel, nice vests. You know, they make sure people have nice boots. Like, everybody's looking good. Equipment's. It doesn't have to be brand new, but it's clean, it's tidy. It's typically well branded. Company trucks are clean. Tidy job sites, clean. Tidy.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Work looks real good. I think there's a.

[Caitlin]

Like.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you have to pay people well. You gotta.

[Caitlin]

Table stakes.

[Aaron]

Yeah. All that. You. You have to do that. But I look at it from like, here's the stuff anybody can do. Like, here's the stuff that doesn't cost money, that goes along.

[Caitlin]

It was a choice. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. A long way. Or. Or the companies that talk about themselves, like, it's so. It's so interesting how even executives that I talk to, how frustrated they are about how shitty their company's social presence is. And they're not like a social media dem. I mean, I've heard it multiple times from like senior executives.

[Caitlin]

Why don't you think they change it or invest in it? Let's talk about that.

[Aaron]

Well, well, why? Why do you think?

[Caitlin]

Because they can't connect the dots or they don't have the right people that actually can move the needle. I think they think that marketing is still arts and crafts. It's like a coat of pain on an aging building.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And I think that they don't realize it's foundational. I don't think that they tie. They don't realize that marketing is just a change agent for the business.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And if you're doing it the right way, it can actually move the needle. It can actually help make revenue.

[Aaron]

I think so. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And I don't think that they can connect the dots in a Meaningful, impactful, intentional way. I think they know the outcome. They literally do not know how to get the outcomes that they, they want.

[Aaron]

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[Caitlin]

I think data driven result marketing, social is one of them. Like you can't see that impact to a certain degree.

[Aaron]

Yeah you can.

[Caitlin]

There's vanity.

[Aaron]

No you can't.

[Caitlin]

There's vanity.

[Aaron]

Well and there's the whole bullshit vanity thing as well. But it does, I mean it's bigger than social. Like brand is so valuable. Like I went to work, I went to work for Skanska because I drove by a job site on my way to another company's job and they're the Skanska trucks looked really fucking cool. And I was just like, who are these guys? I'd never seen Skanska. They're just, I remember seeing their logo for the first time. Like it's just clean. And everything looked good, professional, like high level. When they were kicking the shit out of this project, I was like, I want to go work for these guys. And then the next summer I go to work for Kiewit because it's Kiewit. I couldn't tell you a single job Kiewit had ever built. Not a single clue. But I knew they looked bad ass. Like they, they looked Cool. They just, I just wanted to be part of like this.

[Caitlin]

Perception.

[Aaron]

Yeah. This cool kids club and. But, but perception's reality because you get there, then it's like, oh, this is the big leagues. It's like I'm working for a serious team like you, you almost, you almost buy into it. And there's, it's a double edged sword because you can be good and you.

[Caitlin]

Can throw a lot of money down the toilet if you're just wanting to spend money.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah, but, but there has to be a strategy. There's also, there's also an arrogance that can come with it with some leading industry brands that I've, I've seen time to time. But I mean that's, that's why I made those decisions like a hundred percent. I just thought they were cool. That was it. Like. And, and I think, I think that's where a lot of people go wrong from a recruitment standpoint and retention standpoint too. They approach it like too literally, like too logically.

[Caitlin]

It's like it's transactional too.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you're like, you're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't make sense. Like, like, like to, to people are like, why'd you get into construction? It's like I liked bulldozers. If I got a job in construction, I'd be around heavy equipment all day, every day. Like it's not hard. That was the math. That was 18 year old Aaron math. That's it. Yeah. And it's like, like especially people in their 20s, like 18, 19, 20, 20s. Like it doesn't have to make sense.

[Caitlin]

No.

[Aaron]

That's the beautiful thing about it.

[Caitlin]

I will say though that from a marketer's perspective it better make sense from your, like from our internal angle.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Like it cannot be haphazard.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And yeah. You do have to have an intentional strategy in the right mix of things you do to really make the impact that you want to have. If that's, if it's tied to your goals. Like what are your, what are your goals first? Right.

[Aaron]

But this is, I, but I think, I think that's a, I think that's a dichotomy too because I've seen that's a classic mistake. I think marketing people like you haven't made this but like bigger time marketing people in construction, they treat it again too logically, too plan based. It's like no, no, no, you have to have some fun. Like you've got to fuck around. It's, it's, it needs to be playful. Like we need to. We need to have a good time here as well.

[Caitlin]

The strategy can be. We need to entertain first. And there's other things that are an outcome of that entertainment. Right. Entertain, gamify, engage. And then the other things downstream will naturally have reduced friction.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

But that is a strategy.

[Aaron]

It is. It is a strategy. Yeah, but. But it's like strategies don't have to.

[Caitlin]

Be academic or abstract or don't have meat to them.

[Aaron]

I think. Yeah. I think when people hear strategy, there's different interpretations of. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

It's like when you say brand, what is brand? So to some people it's a logo. To other people, it's the way the ethos of a company and what they stand for. It means different things.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I think they're. Yeah, I. I've always had a strategy. I just.

[Caitlin]

You have. Well, one. You have.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Oh, it's. But it's simple. It's just tell the story of the industry. Celebrate the industry.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's not much more complicated. Like, that's. That's why I get. That's why I get a little frustrated people. It's like, why we're with construction marketing in general, too. It's like, why does this suck? Like, why are we making this unfun? Like, this is what we do is fun. Like, building stuff is fun. This is big equipment. This is like blowing stuff up and building our whole world. Like, why are we. Like, why does this suck? It doesn't have to, like, Well, I. If we were, like, selling legal services. I get it. But like, we're not, like, just lean into what the heck's going on here.

[Caitlin]

It's an easy story to tell.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Caitlin]

You start to be genuine and authentic and kind of turn a mirror to it, and it's going to be great.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But that goes back to where stage hands, not stars. I think sometimes I think that's where marketing goes wrong a lot of times.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. Because they think they're marketing a company, and if they do that, they're doing it all wrong.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And if they. They. And this is where a lot of people in the office go wrong, is like, well, wait a minute. The field pays all of the bills here.

[Caitlin]

Oh, no, no, no. We work for them.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

We are nothing without them.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Caitlin]

They should be the feature. They should be the stars. They build our work. That's why I'm saying, like, the companies don't build projects. People do.

[Aaron]

No, exactly.

[Caitlin]

So show the people.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

It should be people first. Always hard. Stop Everything else would. We'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think we've talked about before too, but I'd say 80% of my. The marketing team at ESS's efforts are internal. We reach our first. We support them and what they're doing and try to keep them informed and try to engage with them. And you look at our social feeds. Yeah, we can do it for the industry, but really we basically just use that as a microphone to talk to our people and engage with our audience in different ways. If more stuff comes, great. But we're not doing it for. To compete with other companies in the traditional sense. It's just. We want to tell the story.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. No, I, like, I remember when I first met with you. I don't even know when I first met you.

[Caitlin]

It was a while ago, what at least like five or six years ago? More.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, I, Yeah, yeah, it was.

[Caitlin]

We didn't have this office yet.

[Aaron]

No, no, no. But I, Yeah, we walk in, you're like, you a bunch of people and I'm sitting around like the. Do all these people do and they start to show all the stuff you guys are doing internally. And even like the, the annual meeting. Yeah, like, even that alone is like, I see what all these people do. There's a, there's a lot going on.

[Caitlin]

It's a little bit there. Then you start getting into events. You're like, now I get it.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah, the event, the event thing's a different, a different animal.

[Caitlin]

There's a big investment there. But it's to us, it's that they can walk in. They, they can. It's. It's the magic of, of being in person, being together. Um, I think if you're just approaching connecting with your people in a digital way, you've again missed the boat a little bit there.

[Aaron]

Well, that's why, I mean, that's why we've leaned in on the, on the summit was like we. But that it's like one of the moats around our business that is primarily now online technology based.

[Caitlin]

It.

[Aaron]

It's still a human industry. Yeah, it's still people. And you still gotta build those relationships with one another.

[Caitlin]

Yes. So whether they're online or in person, I mean, it takes both. I mean, just connecting with people.

[Aaron]

Are y' all still doing those events now that we.

[Caitlin]

So we.

[Aaron]

As big as everything is now, we.

[Caitlin]

Now actually do four events. So that big kind of annual celebration. So it's when we. The purpose behind or the intent behind it originally was when we announced the stock price.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

So now we have a live feed of that, but we have four concurrent regional events all happening at the same time, same night, all watching the stock price together across regions at the same time.

[Aaron]

I see.

[Caitlin]

So there's thousands of people that come. There's a huge party in Phoenix this year, a couple parties in the Midwest, but still being able to get people in that. That vibe of when you've got hundreds or a thousand people just going nuts when the price comes, the wealth that's generated in the room and just the hype around that and people getting cited. I mean, if you, you know, say you've only been to Company a couple months, you. You're a part of that event. You look around, you're like, people are. People are loving this. This is a thing.

[Aaron]

Yeah, this is. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Wow. I'm looking at somebody who, you know, entered the million dollar club for the first time this year, and they are loving life. And it's a foreman who might still even code switch and operate a piece of equipment every day. And this person is. They're in a really good spot. Those are cool. You can't. I can't emulate that. I can't put that in a brochure or a video or a digital thing or try to pitch and sell that. That's just like, you're. You're able to get, like. The mission is very clear.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

That's it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I.

[Caitlin]

The uniter of that.

[Aaron]

Well, and for people that don't know the background of that, you have basically this outside organization, whatever it is, value the business every year and assign a stock price. So, like, ESS has a stock price, but it's not like the stock market. You can't just look it up.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

It's not just instantaneous. No. It's an annual.

[Caitlin]

And we're happy for that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, it'll.

[Caitlin]

One time a year.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

There's evaluation annually. That happens a lot of different checks and balances. And outside. It's not like a bunch of people in a back room decide what the price is. Right. It's not Monopoly money. It's not just whatever. Yes. There's checks and balances that come in and say, yeah, here's. Here's what that. That new stock price is.

[Aaron]

But then you announce it to everybody, and then I can see, okay, it's $100 a share, and I have 100 shares.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

So that's. Wow. I have, you know, $10,000 that's waiting for me.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

At that.

[Caitlin]

And right. Now it's not just that's the appreciation of how much I have and how much it's grown, but it's also how much we're contributing every year. So like say if you have, if our contribution percentage right now is 22% and you make say $100,000, you're getting $22,000 put in your account by the company.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

That doesn't include dividends, it doesn't include other cash, it doesn't include other things like that's how much is getting injected in your account. And a, it's not like a 401k you literally put in zero dollar. It's just the employer puts it in your account and says thank you.

[Aaron]

Which I, I like over a 401k way better. I don't, Yeah. I am less and less of a believer in 401ks the more time goes on.

[Caitlin]

We also find that our people, I mean our people, they have a stake in the outcome. Right?

[Aaron]

Exactly.

[Caitlin]

You have a stake that. The 401k is just subject to markets and what's happening. It's, it's not that. It's, here's the deal. It's, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. Whether it's an ESOP or any financial wealth like retirement.

[Aaron]

Do what I do.

[Caitlin]

You do? Yes. You. Oh, you put it all eggs. Well, okay.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

Different story. But you know, the average bear, like, be smart. Don't put all of your eggs into basket. But I will say this, for many people becomes the biggest part of that for them.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I, I think that's great. Yeah. I, I, I haven't been to your event, but I went, I had the opportunity to speak at Garney's annual event last year, which was really cool. Super. Another big ESOP in Kansas City. Funny enough, they've grown differently. They've grown organically now. Biggest water wastewater company in America. But it was, it was super, super well done. Like seeing their, I forget who did the presentation, but CFO level or somebody at that level. Again, I forget who it was specifically, but just listening to them like they, they were really articulate about it. The presentation was so well done because you have to, you have to speak to the lowest common denominator.

[Caitlin]

Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

Like somebody whose second language could be second language, could be English, you know, not even, not even first language. Somebody that just joined on the company two weeks ago, entry level position.

[Caitlin]

You had to take these super complex concepts and distill them down in these easy, digestible like, yeah. One, two, three. These are three things. You got to know what's up the room and the right people can do it really well.

[Aaron]

Yeah, they did it so. And it was. But you could, you could.

[Caitlin]

You got it.

[Aaron]

I. Exactly. I did get it, but you could. The, the excitement, the energy was just like, wow, this is awesome. So cool.

[Caitlin]

It can be that game changer. But you got to kind of like bottle that and figure it out.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I think, I think the ESOP model is kind of the future of the construction industry.

[Caitlin]

Well, I think it's. I was at an eco conference last month and I think construction is the number two industry that's going esop. Like, we're seeing this trend where it's just. I mean, it's all about the. Solving the people problem a little bit too, and figuring out. But yeah, it's a. We're seeing it in all across the country.

[Aaron]

Well, you have to. We've been reflecting upon the whole workforce thing a lot more. It's not. Attract. Is like a very small piece of the puzzle. I just don't think this industry makes enough money. I don't think it pays. It pays well enough. It just doesn't. Like, I just don't think wages are equal to the work being demanded and especially the hours being demanded. I mean, now, summer, 60, 70, 80.

[Caitlin]

Hours, like you're getting it in volume, but that's.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, but you. Yeah, yeah. Like you, you get overtime and all that. But that's. I mean, we're asking a lot of people, A lot of people and they should be, they should be compensated accordingly. But when in like a. Not that public companies are bad, but when it's. If it's a public company, that money's not staying within the people, within the workforce, within those building the work, it's going elsewhere. Like it walks off. Or if they're, if it's a foreign company, it goes away. Like, or even if it's just, you know, owned by a family forever, like, that money sometimes goes back into the business. Sometimes it just walks off. And I'm not criticizing any one of those models. I think all those models have their place. But from a redistribution of wealth within this industry, like, why shouldn't the people getting like building get more of the money? Like, to me it just makes sense. And to me it's the way to attract, retain, develop great people. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why do we have this lesser than class of people in the construction industry. And that's what other people say. That's not what I'm saying. It's oftentimes because wages kind of suck. Like, I don't think the work's the. I don't think the work's the problem. I think it's a lot of times it's just the wages are not where they should be. And that's what I love about the ESOP model. Not just that the money stays there, but then you have the tax advantage as well. So that, so all that money is not just walking off to the government as well. Like you're retaining it in two different ways. Which is, I think it's again, not the end all, be all. It's not some magic potion. But I just don't see another model that's better and can address, I think like this fundamental financial problem that the industry has right now than the esop.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. We talk about wealth equity all the time and that's.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it just makes sense. It just, it just makes sense. I don't know. I don't know.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. I think it has to be there 100. I do.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I've, I've reflected upon this a lot because I been to Australia quite a few times over the past few years.

[Caitlin]

What.

[Aaron]

As you know. And I, I have just fallen in love with Australia. I just love it. It's the only other country I've been where I'm like, I could, I could definitely live here.

[Caitlin]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Which I thought, I would never say why. Because, and I didn't totally understand this until maybe six months ago. Because it's a middle class society. The middle class is still very much alive. Very much alive.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And, and there's like this, this, this large working class. There's this large middle class. Like it hasn't been eroded from the middle, just obliterated. Yeah. And then you come back to America and you're just like, oh, no, that's exactly what's happened. It's just the middle class is just decimated. Just decimated. And you can look at the numbers like it's, you can back that up statistically very quickly. Very quickly. But that's, I just, it makes the society better. Like it's just like a healthier. And it has its problems too. Trust me. Like, there's all kinds of, of wacky stuff their government does and they don't have guns. Huge bummer. But, but it, it, it gives this different feeling to the society and to business and to. And I haven't interacted with everybody in Australia, but I've like, like a few I've been to more Australian states than most Australians. So I've gotten around the country and it just. It's, it's, it's. I think it's. It's really cool. And that's. I think the United States was there for a very long time, but we've been riding the coattails of that now for decades. And it's like, hey, I think we've got to get back.

[Caitlin]

And usually you'll see that pendulum swing. It's got to swing back at some point.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it has to. Or, yeah, you have this societal collapse, which I don't think is the challenge.

[Caitlin]

But dark, fast.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but, but, but, but that. I think that's the opportunity that construction industry has. Like construction industry has the opportunity to rebuild the middle class in such a substantial way because it's the middle class working within the construction industry and serving the middle class like through infrastructure.

[Caitlin]

So business owners can start to make these decisions. Maybe they introduce an ESOP model, help with wax wealth equity as the marketer sitting on this side. It's like, how can they play a role in shifting some of that outside of. Or anybody that's not in a business owner role? How do they help move the needle?

[Aaron]

A lot of it's just telling stories, reminding people why they do what they do. Because it's a. I mean, fuck, like, we're. We're in summer. If you're working on a paving crew, long hours, hot, miserable. Like, those are. Those are some rough days. And then it's just day after day after day. Are you working nights? You're having to work weekends, Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night. And you can just. It's so easy to lose sight of. Like, what is all this for? Like, just what is this for? I'm just doing a job, trading my time for money. It's like, no, you're not. You're doing something incredible. You're building the whole world around you. Like, people couldn't get from A to B without you, without this road. This is really important. Like, 73, 000 people a day use this road. It's a really big deal.

[Caitlin]

Keeping the perspective where it needs to be.

[Aaron]

But even, yeah, even. Just that, like, it's. It's so like, I was talking to the Ames guys yesterday. They were just like. It's just so helpful to have you out here to just help remind these guys what they do. Because it's so easy to just get in your world. Yeah, just get in your world. Get your grind. Or. Yeah, you're a roller Operator like.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. All you see is the roller work all day. Go home when it's dark again.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Rinse and repeat Truman show every day. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's, it's. I think it's, it's easy to lose sight of that. So even just those, just non stop storytelling, it's getting a lot better though.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, what do you think?

[Caitlin]

Like, I definitely think it's getting better. I think we have a lot of work still to do.

[Aaron]

Well, yes, that's why, that's why you and I have job security.

[Caitlin]

100%, I think. Yes, it's getting better. I think, I think there's a lot of people who want to tell their story better. But yet still, whether it's courage, they lack the courage to be authentic because they just don't. They don't quite get it. Or they don't actually have their own voice yet or they want the outcome, but they're not willing to invest what it takes to actually tell their story in a meaningful, impactful way.

[Aaron]

I would say. Which one do you think drives it more fear or just lack of desire.

[Caitlin]

Or just the understanding of what does that really mean and where do they start and how do they go about doing it? I think there's a lot of interest and I think they want that. But I think it's a matter of I've never done this before or we as a company have never done it before or I have to go pitch this or this is. They think we're gonna. They're so fearful of was money that they're. They don't do anything.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's driven more by fear than anything else. It's really interesting.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. I mean I think it's, it just, it takes courage to tell the story. Even as like, oh, that seems like, oh, that's way overstated. I don't know. I don't think it is.

[Aaron]

It's. It's not. And it even, even like I get like the safety stuff. I understand. I have, I have shared a shitload of images all kind. Like I've shared more on the Internet regarding this industry than most. Than most. Than just about anybody in the world at this point.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Can't think of a single legitimate issue that's come of it. Not one. And maybe I should knock on some wood. Thank goodness we have a wood table here.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's just like there's this boogeyman.

[Caitlin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

That's going to come get you. That isn't really there. And sometimes is there like I've Been slapped on the hand so many times over, but you say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. Here's what I've learned as a result. And then I move on. And then you move on because no.

[Caitlin]

One in operations has ever made a mistake. So that's, that's, you know, God forbid, forbid.

[Aaron]

And, and that's, that's all.

[Caitlin]

We don't want to go build a building because we might have a safety violation.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

Manage to it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you, you, you can go down the safety rabbit hole of the dishonesty and safety that is. We've never made a mistake. It's like, really, really? Or I was, I heard a story not too long ago, keep it very vague, but someone on site, entry level person, made a mistake and it was, it was a boo boo. It was a boo boo. But it wasn't their fault. Like it op. You know, just operational error. Happens all the time.

[Caitlin]

Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

All the time. And the owner they were working for, you know, typically a typical owner would be like, you better shit. Can that. Like, is the person fired? Like, no. Like, why are we having this conversation then? Like, that's step one. Just fire that person. And I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen people, I've seen, I've seen people make a mistake in front of me and then get fired right there. It's wild. But the, the owner had the foresight to be like, no, no, no, this is an operational failure. This is a leadership failure, not a failure on that individual. You're not, you're not letting that individual go. You're looking into why this failure occurred from a leadership standpoint. It's like, wow, good for them. That, that, that's exactly it right there. Like that.

[Caitlin]

So if I draw the parallel, leadership is the problem for not telling the story.

[Aaron]

It starts at the top. I mean, the best, the best brands, I will say the most known brands in the construction industry that are not the Kiewitz Granites, Bechtels, the traditional power players like Sergeant Corporation. They're not a giant construction company. They're not a keywit. But everybody knows about them because of Herb Sargent.

[Caitlin]

One shout out Sebastian Marketing over there.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah, but, but it, and I'm not. It's. And I don't want to give Herb all the credit, but it's, it's.

[Caitlin]

Look, you need an advocate and a champion for it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

You need, and that's where I go back to. They have to be willing to invest in it. And sometimes an investment in it isn't always monetary, but is just giving space support. Yeah. It's. It's. Hey, I am giving you the autonomy to play in this white space.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And build something from scratch. Go take some risks. Go try some things. A space to fail a little bit. That's. That's what a leader can make space for. It's not always I'm going to go throw money at a marketing problem or a perceived marketing or arts and crafts, you know, the coat of paint fallacy. But truly, like, I'm going to hold space for this.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Which is where I feel like, like you've had that lane. Like you, you've had to make the most of it and you've had to like, make the lane bigger.

[Caitlin]

You have to hurdle to run through brick walls every day, but you still need someone who is at your. He's got a backstop for you.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Right. Because there are many people those first few, few years that would have said, like, it would have got shut down in some shape or form or would have been so limited and we would have been. So we couldn't take any risks or we couldn't do anything new that it wouldn't have been valuable.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

The story would have been muffled.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I think it starts and ends with. With Tim at Ess or like Veit, you know, Vaughn and Kelly Veid. Like, it starts and ends with them. CW Matthews starts and ends with Dan Garcia. Hoopa starts and ends with Brandon Bryan. Like.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. And leaders that say, hey, I might not know the how, but I get that this is worth doing.

[Aaron]

I think.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

That's all they really need to do.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, if nothing else.

[Caitlin]

And I'm going to go, we're going to do something about this.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And I would also say that the best leaders right now are not just holding space for their own companies to tell the story, but they're locking arms across companies and saying we need to kind of be this coalition and we are going to support each other. That's that next layer. That's that evolution of like, we can't be boxed out so much to think we have the we are the best of whatever we do. Let the, we're a little commoditized. Let's. Let's take that pride down a few notches and realize it's going to take all of us. We might compete in some areas, but we're not, we're not afraid to help one another and that.

[Aaron]

And see, this is where I think the traditional Contractors, they think there's safety and like, nah, we're just going to keep doing our own thing. But it's like, you don't understand, like, the market's already shifting. There's already this coalition forming over here that's becoming bigger by the day.

[Caitlin]

We have a unique spot because we have found that, like, you know, I think some companies that only look inside all the time to kind of drink their own Kool Aid, I'm not saying that we don't all do that to some degree. You need. You need a level of that. But when we've acquired these other incredible companies, like an AKA and like a Rummel, we kind of take a step back and say there's. They're doing some things that are better than maybe we did before they came on board and we can take a page out of their playbook and there's things we can learn from each other and there's ways that we can level up our game. And that is realizing that there are different people who do things amazingly, that we should all be informed by and help level up our game, not be so afraid that someone might do something better, that we just stay in our own little lane.

[Aaron]

Yeah. On the marketing front, say company has not done anything. Where do you think the lowest hanging fruit is?

[Caitlin]

I think they need to define what are they really needing as a business. And that's where it's a matter of. I've had this question many times. Hey, Caitlin, I think we're ready to finally do marketing. I think we want to make our first hire. Where do we start?

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah, Yeah.

[Caitlin]

I say, okay, well, let me ask you a couple questions. And one of those questions is, do you have the strategy and you want the doer, or do you need someone that brings you the strategy? Those are two very different hires. If you have your own strategy and you have a really clear vision of what you want to go make, and you need somebody who can be the maker and the creator and the developer for you, that's a different hire. If you aren't really sure where you're headed and it's more abstract or you're not sure, you need to be led a little bit more, and you need someone who can come along and grow that and build that, you might need to hire someone that's got a little bit different acumen or maybe have a little more street cred that can help inform your operational leadership team and help gain that buy in. And it's not just about the content that they're throwing out. Both are Important, but they're two different hires.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

And so there's different ways you can approach it. And I think that's why I go back to like what are you really trying to solve for and are, what are you really going to do? Are they going to help you win work? Are they going to help you with pursuits? Right. Are they or do you need to have a. Yeah, that's more the traditional AEC route. Right. Do you need to really level up your engagement? Most companies do, yes. There's the external facing piece, like the iceberg effect. Right. You see social media, that's just the piece out of the water. You don't see there's all this other stuff behind the scenes that can go there and do that. Are you trying to help improve retention? Are you trying to see better recruitment numbers? Are you trying to, are you going to have a lot of change management that you're going to need to do? Are you going to have to level up your ERP, your H R S, your different systems? Are you going to acquire the companies? Are you going to need to help have somebody who can champion cultural integration? These are a lot of questions to ask of like these are different people. This isn't good kid with a camera, no offense.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yes. Yeah, I don't, I don't take any. I certainly don't take any. But like, but where would, where would you start of all of those? That's a lot of things.

[Caitlin]

Right.

[Aaron]

So, so what would you go higher?

[Caitlin]

First, if I'm in a.

[Aaron]

If I'm need to hire one person.

[Caitlin]

I would hire one. Here's my rubric. Does maybe not the person but more of. I would hire someone who understands the industry. If you think you're going to hire an outside marketer, your first hire, maybe your second or third could be non industry. Sure. But your first hire better be able to create value and operate from a. They're going to be need to operate from a position of prove it. They're going to have to show the value first to build trust with operational leaders and they better be able to speak the language. Essentially what I say is hire your translator. Hire a translator who can speak creative in a construction world and understands real value to operators. If you don't have a translator, regardless of tenure experience, they will fail.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I think that's perfectly spot on. Perfectly spot on. Yeah. I think that's like, I mean you, everybody else, number one complaint. They don't understand, they don't get it. They don't get it.

[Caitlin]

They don't get It. Yeah, it's pretty, but it's not purposeful. It's pretty, but it's not persuasive. Yeah, pretty, but it doesn't actually help procure work.

[Aaron]

Are they called a loader, a bulldozer? Oh.

[Caitlin]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I've seen a lot of stuff. Right. But, like. Yeah, you can't be tone deaf to it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Like, know the business. Like, really, really know your business. Yeah. What are you costing the company every single day? I could look at someone and know marketing X percent of revenue. This is what we are. This is what. This is what this investment looks like. Here's Roi, here's your return. Here are the KPIs that we track. Here are the things that are important. And it's not marketing vanity metrics. It's. What are our retention rates? What are we. How are we engaging with our people? Are the. What are those feedback surveys from our shareholder weeks? Right. What are people. Are they saying that we. How are they watching our content? How are they engaging with us? Not volume, but quality.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Caitlin]

What does it look like?

[Aaron]

It's. Yeah. Because I think this is a core. I've been around a lot of marketing people in the industry. Now, there are some that are phenomenal, I absolutely love. But then there's this other class that is these construction companies. They have. They have the best intentions. They go out and hire somebody that's experienced, an experienced marketer, but they come in and they just have like this total lack of humility because they know best and they know how to market and they're in this world that doesn't understand marketing.

[Caitlin]

That sounds like a dumpster fire in.

[Aaron]

The making every time. But there's. That happens. I've seen that a lot. And then, and I'm sitting around, I'm like, why are we, like, what, what. What's going on here? Are we trying to do the same thing?

[Caitlin]

But the industry can suss out that inauthentic tone and voice like nobody else's business.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And, yeah, like, clearly it's like, oh, you don't get it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

Or they try to solution something that if it's not, if it can't be done in a job site trailer, you've missed the mark. You know what I mean? Like, if there's things that aren't mobile first, if you don't understand that there's people who work in places that don't have cell reception, like, you're going to have tangible things that are just not going to be able to be done in this environment, you have to know the guardrails and the rumble strips and you need to know where the business is headed.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

You have to be able to drive down that lane.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's. Yeah. Having that person that understands, that's. That's huge.

[Caitlin]

Have to speak the language.

[Aaron]

I. But it's so. It's oftentimes I feel like that's within the business already in a lot of cases too. Like, I worked for a contractor. I was begging them to take over social media. And I had this whole plan, I had the strategy, I had this presentation to them. And I was sitting there, I was like, I don't need you to pay me anymore. I'm gonna do this on my own time. Like, it was I. Just a softball. Like, please. I just, I just wanna. I just wanna help here. We didn't really have a marketing department or anything. Like there wasn't anything going on. Yeah. But. But it was just like, get. Like. Okay.

[Caitlin]

I think you have a lot of different reasons.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Mostly from women, which is. Okay, I'm still single. But I think. But I do think there's people even inside of these organizations that just want to help. And I know I. I know there's. You need to have boundaries with that. I know it just can't be the wild, wild west.

[Caitlin]

No. But. But risk needs to be taken.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

And if they risk. Just action.

[Aaron]

Just something.

[Caitlin]

Just action.

[Aaron]

But that's. And, but that's where you can potentially grow someone internally into that role as well.

[Caitlin]

Yes. I think there's not every time. It's just like any growing. Any talent. Right. Some people are going to be able to. To rise and grow and level up. And some people are going to be your. Your rock stars that just keep doing the same thing and provide great value. Right. But I think. Yeah, the translator sometimes can turn into the strategist and sometimes your translator is just the translator. And it just depends on what the business needs. Sure. So do you need to hire a Caitlin to go do what you need to do? No, not always. But just know what you're going to get from the person you hire and what that team looks like. And again, what are your goals? What are you trying to get done? Is it just because you want to look cooler in the industry? And there's. Yes. A little storytelling and. Cool. There's. There's a. To be fair, like don't over complicate it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Make sure you're on social and do your things. Great. Cool. But like Is that really transforming the.

[Aaron]

Business or is that just sometimes when it's done Right.

[Caitlin]

Right. But you can be one Persona on social and have one perspective and then be treating your people like shit behind in the. Within the four walls of that business. And that feels really shitty to those people who see the social and be like, that is not at all what's happening here.

[Aaron]

Sure, I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I'm not laughing at that. But like, I just had this conversation the other day about a business and somebody has like, insider very close to what's going on within the business.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I was like, wow, that's a way different story than what's on social media right now. Because I had no idea. And I just see them on social media all the time. I was like, based on social media, they are killing it right now.

[Caitlin]

Right. So, like, there's like a little level.

[Aaron]

Of like, I've fallen victim to that. I try not, I try not to though. I really, I really try not to dress myself up.

[Caitlin]

But I mean, I think it's just a matter of you can be, you can tell the better version of your story, but it still should be your story.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin]

Like, you can kind of put a little bit of that, like, kind of like a different angle on it or, you know, be able to put the words together in a different way. But it can't be the foundation. There needs to be a semblance of truth behind it because that's really, it's when people can connect with truly who you are as a business and know that that's whether it's what you see again out here in the, in the, the digital space or if it's really how people interact with each other every day. Like that matters.

[Aaron]

Well, this is where, going back to individuals, I think it's more valuable for. And a lot of ways for individuals to be telling that story because individuals are easier to connect with.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like a year, year and a half ago, we stopped doing company social media and we're just like, let's just put our resources towards our individual social platforms. That's going to be better for the company and it 100% has been better for the company. Okay. Because I think. And we've still dabbled with, I mean, we haven't figured out the company social thing. Like, company social is hard. I have not been able to figure that one out.

[Caitlin]

But yeah, it's where again, I go into the thing lane of like, yeah, you want to tout your people's good Work. They want to see that represented, at least from a company that builds a different space.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Caitlin]

But, yeah, I mean, I think again, we have to entertain first.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

You have to entertain first and maybe educate or inform second, however you look at it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You have to offer value.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think that's how I put it. It has to be valuable. You have to give people something. No one gives a. About you.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

No one gives a. About your company. No one cares. Like, everybody's busy, but they do care.

[Caitlin]

If they're sitting on the back of the tailgate having a quick lunch break and they're scrolling and you make them laugh and you make them kind of like, you know, just like, kind of be like, oh, I got to just leave my space for a little bit, laugh about something or something that I can relate to. Like, oh, you get me. This is great.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yep, yep, yep, yep. But, like, I feel like people need to go scroll the Internet these days because there is some hilarious shit on there. Like, it is so funny. People. People are so.

[Caitlin]

And to be fair, we challenge ourselves. I mean, I do not have it all figured out, but there's more and more risks we try to take every day and it's. But I would agree. I think you have to be there to just, like, again, but that's to be fun. Like, to be able to entertain, to be able to provide this perspective. You have to know enough about what you're talking about. And a lot of the marketers don't even know. They don't know how to connect with the field because they've actually. Some people have never even been in.

[Aaron]

The field, which is. I would. If. If I was a new marketer at a construction company, I'd spend the first month in the field, minimum. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Going around, seeing the different kind of scopes of work, understanding how people talk with each other. What is. What does that life look like? What is life on the road? And what does that really mean for people and what sacrifices are they making to make that happen for us?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Like, again, if you can't connect with people, but you got to get to know people, you know, you got to connect with them.

[Aaron]

You do.

[Caitlin]

You've got to really take the time to get to know them.

[Aaron]

It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's in the. Authenticity is big, too. My goal has been like, if I. If somebody meets me on a job site, I want to be like, oh, yeah, that's a guy. Like, it just makes sense. I've realized recently, though, I. I'm more outgoing in A, like, situation like this or on online than I am, especially with a group of people, like, naturally, Naturally. I'm not an outgoing person. I'm not. But, but to me, it's like I'm in my head about being with a bunch of people, and I don't, I don't want to stand out, especially if I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm small.

[Caitlin]

You kind of think like a contractor. They don't want to draw attention to themselves.

[Aaron]

Yeah, exactly. I'm small, can't grow facial hair. Like, even yesterday we walk into the job show, the super's like, you're not, you're not old enough to be on this job site. I'm like, yeah, okay, I got that. That's like a 1,023rd time I've got that one.

[Caitlin]

Would it have to be like, 16 and they just didn't get it or.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I, I, but, but what? It comes off, it comes off when I'm like that shy, natural version of myself that I'm just, I don't care. It comes off like I'm kind of a prick.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I'm like, ah, fuck. Like, that's not, that's never been my intent. That's never been what's in my head. But that's, that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because beaver's like, oh, it's in my head. I'm like, so this year I've been trying really hard to be more outgoing and to include everybody on the job site.

[Caitlin]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And to just go first, introduce myself to everybody there, like, talk to them. Like, oh, yeah. It's way against my nature. I, I love it.

[Caitlin]

Like, it's a lot of energy, but it's. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah. And I love, I, I love being. It's just not my natural state. But that's something I've been doing a lot recently. And I, I, I've, I've been really enjoying.

[Caitlin]

We can come out anytime. With me, I make the rounds almost.

[Aaron]

Every time I talk to you. You're driving.

[Caitlin]

Yeah. Where in the world is.

[Aaron]

And I'm driving. Yeah. I'm traveling or something. Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Always, Always going in and out, for sure.

[Aaron]

Well, what's, what's next? Now that the big brand is so.

[Caitlin]

We established a holding company identity, more acquisitions are coming. It's just a matter of when. Like you said, the environment's a little more challenging, but I think there's some really, some key ones out there. And it'll, it'll, it's always going to be part of what we do. So obviously looking at what's. What's that next? Whether it's bolt on or it's tax onto another subsidiary or another wholly owned subsidiary. Yeah, yeah, it will. Growth will just be there. But I think it's a matter of really, to your point, like establishing that identity. Like, what do we really need to be in that space and how do we evolve and how do we keep moving and growing and telling those stories authentically? It takes a lot of work to be in the field, like showing by the field for the field. That takes a lot of, you know, you have to be there to do that.

[Aaron]

Well, that's expanse.

[Caitlin]

Geography was expanding. You know, there's just. It's more and more challenging. The diversification of what we do has always been to show all of those different pieces. I mean, everything from the diamond grinding in 36 states this year to, I mean, you. You name it. To the. The big, huge.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I didn't even know you projects did that until, like when I saw it on social media. I saw you guys on like i17, but it was ess. I was like, what the.

[Caitlin]

We're here. Hi. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

But you've had the same reaction. People like, are they in this market now? We're like, yeah, we're just kind of playing.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Pavement preservation. Let us come in here and do this. But those. Those folks crush it. Right. But there's the zag in the country all day, every day. And like that's. It's a different vibe. And then they've got people who also get to sleep in their beds every night. You get a little bit of. There's different lifestyles within the ESSC ecosystem, if you will. And it's our job to kind of peel back those layers and really show those different types of paths that we've got.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, I couldn't be a bigger ESS fan, you guys. I would consider when you're budgeting to put an ad. Ad placement in for. I can. I'll. I'll. I'll advertise ESS to potential sellers. If you're looking to sell your business.

[Caitlin]

Your people can call my people.

[Aaron]

Yeah, call Caitlin. Tim.

[Caitlin]

Basically just call Tim.

[Aaron]

1, 800, actually don't.

[Caitlin]

That's actually pretty risky. Call me first.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But no, every. I mean, when you all bought a. Couldn't have been happier because I knew Aiken. I mean, really well respected.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Top notch organization. Then bought Rumble again. Top notch organization. Yeah. Like. And in that. Because I grew up in that market, so I know those companies well. And I mean, that was a good move on your part, but their part as well.

[Caitlin]

I would hope that they. Yeah, they feel that same way. I mean, Rick and Rod over at Rummel have been just fabulous partners. It's like, they just get it, though. They're about the work, they're about their people. They are about making an impact in the community. And it's like, man, when your core values align that strongly with what you're already doing, like, it's a recipe for success. These aren't fix up companies. These are incredible companies. And it's like, just sit back and let them be amazing. Don't get in their way. Don't corporatize them. Let them run. Let them eat. Right. Like, let him. Let him go.

[Aaron]

I. That's what I appreciate about Rick and Rod, though, because, like, they couldn't. They could have ridden that horse for a much longer period of time.

[Caitlin]

I mean, it takes a really selfless leader to transition to the ownership model.

[Aaron]

It was a really good. Yeah. And great time, like, and they are.

[Caitlin]

They're incredibly selfless and said, wow, to go to that next chapter, here's a path that we could do and our people would benefit. Let's do it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Not everybody's gonna make that call.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

That's pretty cool.

[Aaron]

It is pretty cool.

[Caitlin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. No, it's. Yeah. Like I said, huge fan. Employment standpoint. Any company looking to sell Holler, look no further. Well, thanks for.

[Caitlin]

Of course.

[Aaron]

Stopping in.

[Caitlin]

Thank you for having me.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Caitlin]

Always a pleasure.

[Aaron]

This is good. Last minute.

[Caitlin]

Yeah, always Cool.