Developing the Next Generation of Technicians w/ Grif Reome of Komatsu – DT 364

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – Episode DT 364: Developing the Next Generation of Technicians with Grif Reome of Komatsu

Introduction

In Episode DT 364 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron Witt engages in an in-depth conversation with Brad (presumably Grif Reome, based on the episode title) from Komatsu. The discussion centers around the critical need to develop the next generation of technicians in the construction and mining industries. They explore various facets of workforce development, including recruitment challenges, diversity and inclusion, international perspectives, and the evolving technological landscape.

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1. Passion: The Heartbeat of the Industry

Aaron opens the conversation by emphasizing that the construction and mining industries are “a labor of love.” He underscores the importance of passion, stating:

“You have to love this because, like, again, like the smell of grease should excite you and if it doesn't, then we gotta have a different conversation” [00:00].

Brad echoes this sentiment, highlighting that technicians’ dedication goes beyond just earning a paycheck. He stresses the need for employers to recognize and support the intrinsic motivations of their workforce.

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2. Recruiting the Next Generation: Beyond Paychecks

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the challenges of recruiting new technicians. Brad critiques the common misconception that technicians are solely motivated by financial incentives:

“If we're thinking that they're only here for a paycheck, then we're not even thinking about them in the right way either” [00:32].

Aaron and Brad explore the necessity of understanding what drives individuals to join and stay in the industry. They advocate for storytelling that highlights the real, hands-on experiences of technicians to attract like-minded individuals passionate about the work.

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3. The California Construction Landscape

Aaron shares his personal background growing up in Auburn, California, detailing his firsthand experience with heavy civil work through his father's operations. They discuss the rapid growth in areas like Sacramento and the resulting housing developments:

“You get on i5 north pretty much from i5 Sacramento all the way up towards like Chico and Redding and stuff. It's all road, you see. Just road job after road job there too” [05:56].

This segment provides context on the regional dynamics influencing the construction industry and the increasing demand for skilled technicians.

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4. Diversity and Inclusion: Women in Technician Roles

A pivotal topic is the inclusion of women in technician roles. Aaron highlights Komatsu’s initiatives to empower female technicians, noting:

“It's 100% female technician class that Foreo's had. Did like all the sponsorship as well as getting them through the program too” [16:35].

Brad praises global efforts, particularly in Sweden and Australia, where women constitute a significant portion of the workforce in technical roles. They discuss how creating an inclusive environment not only diversifies the workforce but also enriches the industry with varied perspectives.

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5. International Perspectives: Learning from Sweden and Beyond

The conversation shifts to international comparisons, focusing on how countries like Sweden manage workforce development differently. Aaron shares insights from his time abroad, observing:

“The union presence was definitely different… you have to ask every single question in the world to help them understand” [25:00].

Brad adds that countries with a consensus-driven culture foster better communication and collaborative problem-solving, which can be a model for the U.S. industry to emulate.

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6. Changing Workforce Dynamics and Generational Shifts

Both speakers address the evolving attitudes of younger generations towards work-life balance and job satisfaction. Brad reflects on observing older generations’ work habits and the necessity for the industry to adapt:

“How do we figure this out? It's like, well, you better figure it out” [20:13].

Aaron agrees, emphasizing that the industry must move beyond outdated expectations and create environments that align with modern workers' values and lifestyles.

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7. Technological Advancements and the Future of the Industry

The discussion delves into the technological transformations reshaping construction and mining, such as autonomous and electric-driven trucks. Brad explains:

“Electric trucks only work fully autonomous because you can't manage the battery” [36:01].

Aaron elaborates on how these advancements will revolutionize job sites, enhancing efficiency but also necessitating new skills and training paradigms for technicians.

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8. Workforce Development and Training Programs

A critical component of the conversation is the role of training programs in bridging the skills gap. Aaron shares his experience with Caterpillar’s Think Big program:

“Tens of thousands of people have graduated… I'm one of tens of thousands of people that have gone through that program too” [16:02].

They discuss the importance of expanding such programs, collaborating with educational institutions, and incorporating diverse recruitment strategies to cultivate a robust pipeline of skilled technicians.

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9. Leadership and Communication in the Industry

Brad and Aaron highlight the essential role of effective leadership and communication within organizations. Brad emphasizes that leaders must invest in people, fostering a culture of respect and continuous development:

“If you're an employer, you're the reason that attitude. And it bums me out” [39:15].

Aaron concurs, advocating for intentional leadership training that equips leaders with the necessary soft skills to support and retain their workforce.

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10. Building and Retaining the Talent Pipeline

The speakers explore strategies for not only recruiting but also retaining talented technicians. Aaron stresses the importance of creating a supportive culture and providing continuous growth opportunities:

“If you have people expressing enthusiasm, they're likely to stay and bring others with them” [various timestamps].

Brad adds that internal referrals and cultivating a sense of ownership among employees can significantly enhance retention rates.

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11. Practical Advice for Aspiring Technicians

Towards the episode's conclusion, Aaron and Brad offer actionable advice for individuals aspiring to enter the technician field:

• Persistence in Job Applications: Aaron advises, “Just because the company says that they don't have a job posted doesn't mean they're not hiring. Keep asking” [95:45].

• Continuous Learning: Emphasizing the availability of online resources, Aaron encourages self-education and dedication.

• Embracing Challenges: Brad highlights that being a technician involves solving complex, unpredictable problems, which requires a genuine passion for the work beyond financial incentives.

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12. Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

In their final remarks, Aaron and Brad reiterate the importance of shifting industry mindsets to value and respect technicians. They advocate for:

• Increased Visibility and Recognition: Promoting the vital role technicians play in keeping operations running smoothly.

• Cultural Shifts: Moving away from outdated stereotypes and embracing a more inclusive and supportive industry culture.

• Collaborative Efforts: Encouraging OEMs, dealers, and industry leaders to work together in building a sustainable and dynamic workforce.

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Notable Quotes

• Aaron Witt: “You have to love this because, like, again, like the smell of grease should excite you and if it doesn't, then we gotta have a different conversation” [00:00].

• Brad: “The industry has become like our industry of choice for individuals” [42:02].

• Brad: “Have you had that conversation? Have you talked to them? Yeah, well, they said this” [99:59].

• Aaron Witt: “I think the timing is really exciting with the change in our CEO as well as with. With the changes in the organization and we're prepping for like a training super cycle” [101:31].

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Conclusion

Episode DT 364 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges and opportunities in developing the next generation of technicians in the construction and mining sectors. Aaron Witt and Brad provide valuable insights into recruitment strategies, the importance of passion and dedication, the necessity of embracing diversity, and the pivotal role of leadership and continuous training. Their conversation underscores the need for a cultural shift within the industry to attract, nurture, and retain skilled technicians who are passionate about their craft and committed to advancing the field.

Transcript

[Aaron]

But that's what I love about this whole industry is it's a labor of love. And I constantly talk about that. Of like, you have to love this because like, again, like the smell of grease should excite you and if it doesn't, then we gotta have a different conversation. But that's, that's where I think we lose sight of that a lot too. Of like, really, why do understanding why do people show up or why, why should they want to show up and be a part of this too?

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And how are we showing up for them to support that? Because, because if, like you said, if we're thinking that they're only here for a paycheck, then we're not even thinking about them in the right way either.

[Brad]

No, I view it like, I understand that people, they have good intentions when they're saying that, but it's disrespectful. It's like anybody saying that you need to go out to the field right now and you need to spend time with the people that you're talking about having to recruit. That would be a great place to start and understanding what they do and why, like, and that's the story to tell. Like, that's how you recruit. And that, I think is why you're so effective. I don't mean why I'm fucking waving this thing around. This whole, I need something, my hand. I'm not like you. But that's why you're so effective, is because you know how to turn a wrench. You've turned a lot of wrenches. Yeah, like you, you've been in that position. You're not an academic, you're not coming about, you know, saying, oh, here's how I think we can do it. And like, you know what's real, you know what's not. And again, that's, it's not just how we need to sell technicians, the whole industry. It's, it's. But, but technicians again, to me it's such, and I am romanticizing it, but I think it's extraordinary watching a seasoned technician work. It is awesome. Yeah, I could watch it all day. I feel like a six year old watching their dad work like in the garage. It's just, there's something about it that I find so fascinating, so impressive, the whole thing. And it's like we just need to bottle that up and use that to get the next generation door. Because that like money, a lot of people have that and a lot of other industries have a lot more of it. Money, money, money. Like check the box But a lot of people have that. What they don't have is what we're talking about. That. That just special. Special thing that is wrenching on equipment out with a big truck in the middle of nowhere, up against the elements. A problem you haven't figured out before. It's. It's. Nothing's going right, and you're, You're. You're so frustrated, but you ultimately figure it out. You overcome the challenge, the customer's back to work, and you go home filthy. Great day's work, and you're on to the next one, the next day. And that's not for everybody. That's not for most people, but that's the point. Yeah, that's. But that's why it's special. Where did you grow up in California?

[Aaron]

Auburn. So just north of Sacramento.

[Brad]

Oh, interesting.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So right there in the Sierra foothills, if you've driven from Frisco to Truckee or Reno, you pass through Auburn.

[Brad]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And that was for a long time, that was the only in and out burger in Northern California before you got up to. Or heading up to Tahoe. So we got all the bay traffic stopping there.

[Brad]

Oh. On their way to all people going to Tahoe.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And then the one claim to fame was that's where the movie Phenomenon with John Travolta was filmed, too.

[Brad]

Couldn't tell you what movie that's about.

[Aaron]

It's definitely, I'd say, one of his top five work, in my personal opinion.

[Brad]

Really? Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'd take your word for it. That's a beautiful part of the country.

[Aaron]

It's awesome.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then that area, at one point in time was the largest growing. Largest and fastest growing county in the entire U.S. is that right? And that's when my dad's operation was really taken off. And then things were blown and going too.

[Brad]

So he was doing side work.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Heavy civil. So everything from Greenfield all the way up to paving, they subcontract the paving out and then do the finish grade on top of that too. But yeah, so then I got to see that firsthand where I'd see the trenches done. I'd go down and check grade. But then even doing, like, rock walls and things along those lines, underground utilities and then to the. Then into the finish space as well.

[Brad]

So was it all residential? For the most part, yeah.

[Aaron]

And that there was this one job that they had, Whitney Oaks. We had guys working for us that had worked for us for like five or six years. That was the only job that they had worked on was that One. Because it was a huge golf development or golf course development.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah. I'm no defender of California. I'm, I'm not the most. Not the biggest fan of their policies, and I think their policies speak for themselves. But it's a gorgeous state.

[Aaron]

Oh, like, it's insane.

[Brad]

I feel like people, when they go to California, they go to the big cities. Like. Yeah, the big series of big cities. But like, have you, have you seen California? And just how much there is, like, I mean, there's the redwoods, there's the mountains, there's Death Valley. Like, there's. There's the ocean. Central, Central Coast, Central Valley. It has so much there.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

So much going on. It's gorgeous. And I know post 2020 some of the biggest residential construction projects were in that area around Sacramento especially. And it's like, well, wait, no, I thought everybody was leaving California. It's like, no, some are, but a lot of people are leaving the Bay Area and going to Sacramento.

[Aaron]

It's the same thing that happened 20 years ago and it's happening again. It's that flight from the Bay Area and then kicks up the prices of housing in that area again.

[Brad]

But then the subdivision projects are enormous. Like, I've been out there with Goodfellow and with Independent, and you just like, you can't see the end of the job. It's just. And speaking of earth moving, I mean, it's through 390. 390. 390 D10, 390 blasting.

[Aaron]

Like you get on i5 north pretty much from i5 Sacramento all the way up towards like Chico and Redding and stuff. It's all road, you see. Just road job after road job there too. It's crazy. And then like growing up as well, like outside of the Sacramento airport, there was nothing there. And that's also where Holta, California's branch is, in that Pleasant Grove area too. And now it's all booming metropolis and like housing developments, you know.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Ulta Cosmetic supplies, Starbucks, etc too. So it just continues to expand more and more.

[Brad]

Yeah, the, the, the warehouse projects out there. Enormous as well. That whole Central Valley area. Yeah, it's super interesting. Who was the company that Goodfellow bought? Top grade, was it?

[Aaron]

I'm not familiar on that.

[Brad]

Okay. Yeah, I think it was top grade. But now it's all Goodfellow. So you grew up around that?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

When you were like in high school. Before that.

[Aaron]

Oh, before that. So he had started a company from the ground up. Started in high school, working as a contractor. For the US Forestry department, Then saved enough money over a summer and then bought a tractor the next year to be able to pull logs out to a clearing and then hired a crew that led into finish braiding and septic work, and then ended up finding his way into heavy civilization. Interesting. So that was before I was born, and then when he was in civil, that's when I was growing up, too. So from the late. Yeah. My whole life, our shop was just on the hill from the house, too. So my backyard was the shop. Like, I grew up, you know, my Saturdays waking up to the sound of air arc.

[Brad]

Yeah, that's. That'll wake you up. Yeah, yeah, I. When you say that, like, anybody's heard, it's like. Yeah, I know. Exactly. So you grew up wrenching on stuff then Your. Your whole life.

[Aaron]

Knew how to drive a backhoe before I had a license. You know, all that fun stuff that we're looking for in the industry that just isn't there today. But I got to do that firsthand.

[Brad]

I do think, like, especially when it comes to being mechanically inclined, I do think there are people that are just more mechanically inclined. I do think there is some innateness to it. But I also think. I just wonder how much of that is them growing up around it as well.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

I think it's a huge advantage to grow up with a wrench.

[Aaron]

Oh, 100%. And that's some of the issues. Then, like, we talk about recruiting. Like, with what I'm doing, Komatsu, and then, like, other organizations I've worked with before as well, is like, we want to recruit people, but then we also have to understand, like, they've never seen a 2D print. Yeah, they haven't. Like, they don't know what axle grease smells like. Right. These are different things. Like, so we have to, like, also think about that is like, trying to engage and talk with those people, too.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because we need so many people, we have to be recruiting them. Like, for me, it was awesome. And it was a necessity to life to be there as well as, you know, build that skill set. But now, as we're starting to, like, externally, like, we have to understand that not everybody's given that same opportunity as well.

[Brad]

And it's kind of like showing up to a bike race. Like, you know how to ride a bike, but it's like, shit. Like, I don't know how to ride a bike.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And. And I'm having to, like, figure it out while in the race. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't work very well, and I feel like an idiot, but that's how I feel with anything mechanical. I just feel like, like I can figure it out if, if I learn about it. But I'm an adult learning about it, and I just haven't had as many opportunities. Especially I had no, zero opportunities growing up. Yeah, but it's like when you're learning about brake cleaner when you're like 24 years old, you're like, oh, you know, stuff like that, like, like this. Or, or I'm thinking of, like through dumb shit, like, or even just how to put, you know, connect an air air hose to something. Yeah, right. Like it has the little thing you have to pull back on. And if there's pressure, you see somebody.

[Aaron]

With and you're sitting there struggling for like 30 seconds while everybody else is laughing at you.

[Brad]

Yes, it's stuff. It's, it's, it's stuff like that, that or you just, you don't know what tools to apply where.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

How to use, you know, a bar for additional leverage. Like, basic shit. You just get that growing up.

[Aaron]

Well, and then you get into like some of that shade, shade tree stuff that I think is still really, like, useful and relevant. Obviously, like, it's not always the most ideal way to repair things. But, like, when I was starting out, it was me and this other guy, Chris, that we were working together, like both 16 or 17 at the time, like, feeling confident, like, yeah, we can go work on dad's product on the weekend and stuff. We had a paddle wheel, scrap and scraper, and the paddles had come off and we, and I was researching, like, looking at the books. I'm like, how the hell do you get this back on? We had this one guy working for us, Gene. He had been, you know, pretty questionable background, career wise, you know, in and out of camps and stuff like that, if you get my drift. But you could have a Mustang suck in a tree for 20 years and he would tell you how to get it out and get it running with, you know, bailing wire and duct tape, too.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So we call Gene and he tells us, oh, just put the one side on blocks and then start, you know, hitting the rotate and then finally it pops over too. So that's the whole other. Like, there's one, there's like the rudimentary, like, what the engineers want you to know, but then like the second layer, you almost get to that. Alchemy, which is a really fancy way of saying, you know, just kind of how to redneck everything else.

[Brad]

Yes, yes.

[Aaron]

But it's like, how do things really work? And again, back to. Every job site is individual. Every job site or application is specific to that customer. It's all that stuff that comes up as well.

[Brad]

It is one of my favorite skills to be around anybody that can fix a machine, weld on equipment, like, fabricate. All of that, I think is complete witchcraft. And it just. It blows me away. How and what's so cool? I think it's one of the coolest jobs. It's. It's. It's so far from my skill set, but it's so cool because this machine has a problem, and you have to figure out one what the problem really is and then fix it. Like, you don't. It doesn't just, like, you don't just drive up to it. It has a sign on it, you got to replace XYZ and it'll be good to go. It's like, no, they parked it up here because it was making a really weird noise yesterday.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And then you, like, you think you know what it is, but then you start getting into it, and it's actually, you know, the root cause is you thought it was X, the root cause is Y. So now you have to address Y before you can figure out X and actually fix the machine. And then while you're in there, you see something else that hasn't gone wrong yet, but could go wrong, like, oh, yeah, it's such a. There's so much problem solving involved.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And then you're on. Basically on good faith with what the customer is telling you, too, or that operator as well. So they may say X. But then, like you said, like, that's not what's going on with this machine at all.

[Brad]

Right.

[Aaron]

So is that complaint accurate? And then actually getting into that issue, too.

[Brad]

It's. I mean, it's. It's not that different to, like, medicine and being a doctor. Like, yeah, patient comes in with a problem, it's your job to figure out what the heck's causing that problem. Like, I mean, that's. Some stuff's pretty obvious. Like if you have to change cutting edges, like, okay, yeah, that's pretty straightforward. But, yeah, a lot of stuff is, like, pretty far out there.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You get like a nuisance alarm or something like that where it's like, we're bleeding off pressure. And then you've got to figure out, okay, where is pressure bleeding off in the system? We've got some sort of valve that's stuck open in the system. So then it's all just isolation within the circuits. Too. So that part, I mean, to me that's where it gets exciting. But I know that's not everybody's kind of wiring as well. But I think that's where it's really fun. Like you're getting out the drawings and you're really kind of like, again, down to that medical level. Like you're looking at every single detail and saying, okay, if this is what's going on, then what in the system is driving this or could be contributing to this?

[Brad]

I don't. And I really. It's really not that far off. And, and just the amount, like a good technician, just the amount of information they have to know and the skill set that they have to have, like that that's as skilled as it gets. I know they didn't go to medical school and this and that, but it's like that's on the same level to me. Oh, honestly, it looks a lot different, but from a skill, human skill, perspective, knowledge, perspective, oftentimes I find that more impressive in a lot of ways because you don't just have to diagnose a problem, but then you have to like, get in there and sometimes, like, it's a delicate solution. Other times you do just have to be an absolute ape and throw yourself at the problem and use brute force, get the big hammer out or, you know, turn the pin to liquid because it just, it is not coming out another way. Why didn't you go the civil construction route? Why not take over the company?

[Aaron]

Because I really started to find my own path. And then I was going through, at the time, I was going through the Think Big program and then I found out about the Think Bigger program, which is CATS two year program and then the four year program and then back then it was 05. So the California's housing market was actually starting to slow down a year or two before everybody else did. So I saw everything starting to slow down as well. So it was like, timing is right. I could keep wrenching and then go back to work for dad, or I could keep going with my education. He was happy to have me out of the house too, I think. So I think it ended up working out in the long run because all of us that, all of us brothers and sisters, like, we ended up working in one industry in some form or another at one point in our lives. My younger brother probably the most directly in comparison to me as well. If we had stayed in, taken over the company, one, you're still Phil Riom's son. And two, I don't think he would have been able to enjoy his retirement, he'd probably still be working today. So give him that opportunity to have an out as well. And I think, I mean this career itself led to tons of opportunities where I've lived all over the us, traveled the world, lived overseas. Wouldn't have taken place if I stayed civil engineering in Auburn too.

[Brad]

Yeah. And I know you're somewhere else now, which we'll get to, but the Caterpillar Think Big program is pretty extraordinary. Oh yeah, I give them a lot of credit for getting a lot of people into this, this, this industry. It's, it's, it's the best I've seen.

[Aaron]

Tens of thousands of people have graduated. So like I'm very humbled that I'm able to talk here today, but I'm like, keep in mind, I'm like, I'm one of tens of thousands of people that have gone through that program too. So that's where it's been fascinating. And then now trying to see what can we do with other OEMs in that space to drive kind of that same philosophy because that really originated with Toyota and then it was carbon copied and then duplicated from there. But those programs, it's awesome. I mean a few years ago I went down to South America and I did a graduating class in Peru when I was a keynote telling them I started as a technician. It was 100% female technician class that Foreo's had. Did like all the sponsorship as well as getting them through the program too.

[Brad]

Yeah, I, the most women I've seen in a Caterpillar shop is in Antofacosta. Oh yeah, like by multiple times.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's, it's kind of ironic though. I mean we always talk about like how progressive and how forward thinking the US is. But then if you think of like workforce like well in the US we call workforce development, I think what the rest of the world calls like wraparound services, we're decades behind. And that's where like yeah, you get outside of the U.S. even in Canada you're going to see more females in operating, like in an operating role or in the shop even too. South America as well.

[Brad]

Australia.

[Aaron]

Yeah, Australia is really good about that. And then like Sweden it's, it's damn near 50, 50 like in terms of the operators and then probably about 20 for the technician space as well.

[Brad]

Yeah, I like first time I went to, to, to Chile I was like, all right, how good can this be? You know, it's probably not us, but you go down there like I am so wrong like, this is way better. Yeah, like, way, way better. And like, how. How did you get all these women here? And, and they're like, well, we, I mean, we have a program. Like, we actively engage with the community. We invest in women in the community. We give them legitimate skills through our university here in the city. They don't have to come to work for us. We're just here to give them legitimate skills. But then if they want to come to work for us, that's great. We equipped them with, with that, that career. We have flexible schedules.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

It's like, well, okay, great. That, that, that makes a lot of sense. We've developed different tooling for women over men. And it's like, oh, you really have thought about this. Like, you've, you've really thought about and you're really doing something here. And I thought it was spectacular. And the results speak for them. I mean, the whole, the whole time and we were walking. Have you been to the Finnings crc?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And for cost.

[Aaron]

Insane. You could eat off the floor.

[Brad]

You could eat off the floor. Like, the garbage cans have their own little parking spaces at each bay. I mean, it's that detailed.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

But they're working on, you know, 7, 797 engine rebuilds, so giant stuff, which was spectacular. But I was just like, how do you guys have so many women in this shop? Yeah, because especially like a shop setting. Seeing women in a shop setting.

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah.

[Brad]

Very rare. Yeah, very. Like, I, I would expect a woman in a machine before I'd seen one a shop in the States, frankly. But there it was like, I was like, damn near 50. 50. Yeah, it was amazing.

[Aaron]

But it's. And to. What you highlighted as well is because they act like an employer of choice and they. Yeah, they act like a organization that women want to go work for as well. So all those things that you talked about, like, we had to shift hours, we had to do it. That's what it's going to take. And I think that's just sadly a rude awakening for the US And I think we've been very spoiled for a long time, but that's what it's going to take. And yeah, first you have to think about that with, you know, just the female workforce. Then you look into other demographics as well, and then it's going to require that same methodology of, like, looking at what do we need to do to accommodate these individuals. Are we marketing them appropriately?

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

How you get into the organization is completely different. Like, and talking about, like, you know, how I grew up and got in the Oregon or into the industry. Very seamless and really kind of no brainer for me. But then from the outside it's like you're looking at like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where they're taking that leap of faith to get to the other side too.

[Brad]

Yeah. I. And it goes well beyond women. It's like I think the previous generations figuring out that this generation doesn't want to work 70, 80 hours a week.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like they've done their whole lives. And it's like, oh, how do we figure this out? It's like, well, you better figure it out. Because that is like some people do. I'm all for long hours, working hard. Like that's all I do. All I do is work. But I'm in a position to do that when I have a family. I don't know if I'm going to want to do that.

[Aaron]

Correct.

[Brad]

I watched my dad do that. He's been divorced twice. I don't want to do that. I've seen it. Like I, I don't need to experience it. I don't need to touch that stove to know it's hot. Like I've seen someone else touch it. Yeah, I don't need to touch it. I'm good.

[Aaron]

I tend to roll my eyes now because we always hear these complaints that people have of the current workforce. And I'm like, if you want to understand where these problems come from, just look in the mirror. Because.

[Brad]

Who parented them?

[Aaron]

It's either something you did or something you said to those individuals that causes of like, yeah, they don't want to work endless hours because they saw mom and dad come home at 7pm and then they were just walked out two years before retirement.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

With a pat on the back.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So they see all the, all the hard work that you know is supposed to be benefiting the family, but they just don't see that payoff either. So this, there's a lot more pragmatism obviously with a newer workforce coming in, but then also employers just have to get more hip to like the shrimp shrinkflation mentality is also driving into the workforce. Like you're gonna have to spend more and it's gonna be less of the person or less focus for that individual than what you're used to as well.

[Brad]

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[Aaron]

Two plus two. So I did two year for my associates in California and then went from California to Kansas for my bachelor's and then during my bachelor's when I interned with Caterpillar and then got hired on full time in 07 after that.

[Brad]

Full time with corporate or.

[Aaron]

Yeah, full time with corporate.

[Brad]

Oh, so you were corporate the whole time?

[Aaron]

Correct. Yeah. So it started out two years with a dealership and then summers while I was getting my undergrad and then which one? Hold to California.

[Brad]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And then hired on with corporate after my bachelor's.

[Brad]

I see. I didn't hear the corporate for that long. Yeah, the whole time. Mm. Wow.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

What did you, what did you start doing there?

[Aaron]

So.

[Brad]

Because that's pretty unique, isn't it?

[Aaron]

Nowadays I think it's. More and more people are making that jump.

[Brad]

But to go through the Think Big program, was it the.

[Aaron]

Well, the caveat is if you tend to go to the Think Bigger program, then over half those individuals. I don't think it's. It's definitely not cap models, especially when the dealers are concerned. But I would say over half those individuals end up working for. For Cat Corporate because that's what they wanted to do.

[Brad]

Interesting.

[Aaron]

And for me, I had figured out at one point in time I was like, well, I'd like to work there before I'm 30. And then here at 22, it already had happened.

[Brad]

I see.

[Aaron]

So that it all kind of worked out and happenstance, but it was all, you know, preparation, timing, making sure, you know, am I doing the right things? And then the opportunity presents itself.

[Brad]

So what was that original opportunity?

[Aaron]

So then I went into what they call the marketing training class. So that's where they put all the reps. So the front line of the entire organization are entry level positions which Is really interesting because it's like you're cutting your teeth with the industry as well. So me, I mean I was very unique. I had a ton of background compared to like my colleagues going through that program where a lot of them were like electrical or software engineers too. They didn't know what a scraper or excavator was. So they put everybody through that intensive training that's about three to four months and then they move you around about every year. So I moved from Peoria to Decatur, did some time in Louisville during a dealer stint with what was Wayne supplying is now Boyd.

[Brad]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And then I had gotten the opportunity to go work overseas. But then during that time as well, those Decatur and Peoria rotations, that's where I also met Rod Bull who's our CEO at Komatsu now. And then some other key leaders that are also at Komatsu started over at CAD as well.

[Brad]

When you and you went abroad to Sweden.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

What was. What is that like coming from America? It's from an industry standpoint. Like society. Yeah, but from an industry standpoint.

[Aaron]

From an industry standpoint, it's. It was very eye opening again as well from the. Like we were talking about with a number of operators. Right. So we would have to accommodate and change things within the cab to accommodate the female operators. Where in the US like operator voice or operator input isn't really. Or back then it wasn't really like a thing. It's like just figure it out and operate.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Were there. It was like the. Some of the operators were having issues with a dump body lift lever and they wanted to see if we can make some changes and they got the union involved, etc. So their whole mode of operation is much more bureaucratic, which was really interesting. The other thing too, and I know it's very American, like we'll come over and say it's a brake issue, just go out and fix it. I can't do that with that kind of a culture. I have to ask every single question in the world to help them understand it's a breaking issue.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So those are some of the things that you really have to kind of get your head around is one, the consensus culture. But then two, just like the social union dynamic as well. And it wasn't like a terrible like collective bargaining aspect but like the union presence was definitely different. But then could stop the operation at all times if they wanted to.

[Brad]

That is interesting. Yeah, it is. I've. I've. I've only had lunch in Sweden so I can't speak to Sweden. I. We got to go see a really cool project in Denmark, though, which. Different country, different culture, but similar in Norway.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Nordic. Yeah. It is fascinating. Yeah. Just how like, distributed the power is on a, On a project. I saw like the. We. The. It was fantastic for us because the owner of this project, like, if the owner was in the States, the owner has the biggest, you know what in the room, and everybody's aware of it, and when needed, they're gonna pull it out, show it to everybody. Like they're, they're. For lack of better terms here. Like they're, they're. They're the big guy in the, in the room. But they. There it was like, well, you know, we need to ask the contractor if they're gonna be okay with this. And I was like. When they said that, I was like, who care? You own the project. Like, like you tell the contractor what to do. But it was, it was very much like everybody's on the same level. And if the contract, like we need to ask. Even. Even we need to ask the contractor if we can go into their area, like, for, for this kind of visit. It's like, wow, this is not correct. This is not how the States works at all. Like, if. If I was in with the owner in the States, like, I'm in. There isn't anything beyond that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

But there, it's like, no, we need to make sure this. This group is good to go. This group is good to go. This group is good to go. Even from the owner's perspective, which I thought was. Was really quite something.

[Aaron]

It. Yeah. And you see that manifest a lot, I think. I don't know if it's the Swedes direct intention, but they're where I see it manifest or with the term. I heard a lot kind of carried into the business is we all wear the same thing in the sauna, like, and there it's nothing.

[Brad]

Yes. Yes. And if you wear something, it's like.

[Aaron]

Then you're the weird.

[Brad]

Yeah, but like, they're uncomfortable with you wearing a swimsuit.

[Aaron]

But that, that whole mentality drives in like, nobody is beyond reproach. Nobody is too high in the organization to have a discussion or to be honest with too. So I think that part where you do see more of that and obviously that goes more that consensus mentality, but you don't have that level of separation, which is nice because at the end of the day, it's like, this guy's going to go to the same restaurant, this gal is going to go on snowmobiling trips, etc. And that's what we're all here to do, is be able to, you know, have a good life outside of the work that we do as well. So it. Once you get your head around that stuff, it is very interesting. But then it just kind of just changes the dynamics as well, of, like, how decisions are made, how do we, you know, want to drive, change, test things out, et cetera.

[Brad]

Yeah, they talk about the party next door.

[Aaron]

You're good.

[Brad]

They. But I think that's a really phenomenal lesson to learn when you're younger because it makes you so much better at communicating and leading.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Because you just start to understand the complexities of. Of leadership, of communication, when, you know it's a break problem, and you can sit there all day and just say, it's a break problem. It's a break problem, and get nowhere. And it's like, oh, okay, so I do need to go that direction, but I'm actually gonna have to march around the swamp here. I can't go through the swamp. I have to go around. And you just learn different ways of getting to a solution, which I think just makes you more effective.

[Aaron]

Well, and then you can start fast tracking that stuff too, because once you find that pathway, then you figure out, okay, here's how we get to that pathway more quickly. Having to do that through a language and cultural barrier is extra training. But, yeah, I think for me, it was probably some of the best leadership training I had. Had received. Because you figure out pretty much how to get used to people saying no and then having to be diligent with that, too.

[Brad]

I. I almost love language barriers and. Well, not always, but I do. I do love it because it also. It just simplifies.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brad]

It feels so human when you're communicating, trying to communicate with somebody that doesn't speak the same language as you, because you have just. You don't have this set of tools you rely on every day to communicate. Like, all you have is a smile, like some basic words, hand gestures, and you're trying to communicate something, but there's actually something just so beautiful and simple about it that I really have come to appreciate.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you run a risk because there is, like, there's a huge need for trust in that style of conversation. Right. You don't have the opportunity for nuance. Like, that person or that translator may only have one word for rock.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Right. Where we've got, like, seven different terms, because that's going to help us inflect, like, a certain Tone onto that individual. Like, hey, you should really think about X. Where there. It's like you're just hoping to, like, well, I hope they understand they're overloading the product. Like, as long as the translator survives a conversation, then you're going to survive the conversation.

[Brad]

Yeah. Even it was funny. I was. When we were in Italy, I was. We conducted a site visit through Google Translate, and you would have to interpret, you know, interpret the responses.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And it's like, man, I'm having to really interpret some of these responses because it's just not correct. Like, that's how I sound to him.

[Aaron]

What is this? English. English.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what words is he hearing that? I'm saying that. I'm not saying. How long were you abroad?

[Aaron]

A little over two years.

[Brad]

Okay. So, yeah, that's.

[Aaron]

Oh, it was awesome. Yeah. I dove into the culture, learned the language as well. That was one of the things that I really took seriously. And then I think growing up in California, you're kind of like, you need to learn Spanish out of necessity as well. Especially in construction.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So my mind knew how to, like, learn language already. And then within a couple months, it was daily proficient enough to talk to an operator, too.

[Brad]

But that's the. I mean, best way to do it. It's just like, listen, I have to figure this out.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And then when there's, what, two other Americans for, you know, 20 square miles? Right. Then you really have no other choice. So. Yeah.

[Brad]

We're in Sweden. Where you.

[Aaron]

Yellow bar. Yep. The. I took mine. So it's north of the Arctic Circle. Oh, I think you've been there, Right?

[Brad]

I tried to go there. We had a visit lined up that got postponed. And then I got back to them, and they were just like, nope. And I was like, well, no. Nope. I'm like, all right. I'm not gonna argue. We already have enough lined up. So it didn't work this time.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Brad]

But hopefully we can go back.

[Aaron]

It's well worth it. I mean, it's one of the. Again, the applications. Insane. Just because you're so far north. Plus the extremes. Like, the coldest I saw was minus 60.

[Brad]

That's cold.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And that's during the winter when you don't see the sun for, like, eight weeks.

[Brad]

And then, like, there's a certain part of cold that I've only experienced a full time a few times where. When it hurts to breathe in.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brad]

You're like, okay, this is cold. Like, when you're concerned about just breathing.

[Aaron]

When the pipes freeze in the entire apartment building. Because it's so cold outside. Yeah, it's that same.

[Brad]

That's pretty cold.

[Aaron]

Yeah. The elements are greater than us in this environment.

[Brad]

It's very humbling. Yes, it is. They have a monster Komatsu fleet.

[Aaron]

Yeah, they do. And that fleet's been. I mean, that mine's been open since the 1960s, so you go to their boneyard too. I mean, you see product from years and years ago, like different waves of technology. Drive systems as well. Like, there was Alterex trucks that they had there as, like, from decades previous to.

[Brad]

Sure. Yeah. I know that it's a little bit of a mixed fleet, but they run a lot of Komatsu trucks.

[Aaron]

A lot of Komatsu.

[Brad]

930S.

[Aaron]

Yeah, 930s. And then I was there because the. I was the commissioner for the 795S, and that was Katz Electric drive truck for the first time in 40s years.

[Brad]

Yes.

[Aaron]

So that's why I was sent there was. Because it was a nudge back to kind of push against the Kamatsu fleet that was there.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah. But that Kamatsu. I mean, they've continued with it, no.

[Aaron]

Yeah, they definitely continued. And I think they ended up winning back the. The relationship as well, because they. Yeah, it just changed the fleet mix.

[Brad]

Well, and it's a. They're on a trolley system too, I believe, out of the pit, which. It's phenomenal. Like watching. I think I was watching a Komatsu video recently out of Arizona. The proving grounds. And just Even the speed that the. That the truck can move at on the trolley system, it's just like, whoa, that is amazing. How much faster it is. Amazing.

[Aaron]

But the. Luckily it was before my time.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because from what I understood, on all measures, that's a huge headache to do. The engineering, the application, the installation, and the maintenance on top of that, too.

[Brad]

Yeah. But now it's. I mean, they probably have it down to a science.

[Aaron]

Oh, 100. And then. Yeah. Like, once that's in, then you're looking at all the net benefits that come from that.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

System too. So I think that's where, like when you have a whole road that can be in that place or be there for a series of time or a long sense of time, then it gives you the ability to have that too. So that part's, I think, always really crazy. Especially again, like, mining is the closest to manufacturing in the industry as you can get, in my opinion. And seeing those technologies, like, there and then now that's even evolving to regenerative Drive systems too. So it's getting, you know, getting power out, but then also putting power back into the grid as well. So it's just nuts.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then when everything becomes fully autonomous as well as fully electrically driven, it's going to be insane to see how all that impacts the job sites. We're just starting to see the tip of it. But, yeah, it's going to completely change everything.

[Brad]

The way I've been. The way I've had it explained to me though, is that electric trucks only work fully autonomous because you can't. Matt, you can't manage the battery. Another way, there's, there's. So the operation, like, it has to be totally optimized and it has to be thinking so far ahead.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like it's not thinking about tomorrow, it's 4,872 further hours out and just to run the numbers and to know when the truck needs to be on the trolley system versus when not to. And. Yeah, completely optimized that it has to be autonomous for that to work.

[Aaron]

That's not.

[Brad]

At least that's how I've had it explained to me. I don't know, but I've talked to some pretty knowledgeable people. So you come back, then you end up in this much bigger world that is technician training.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

When did you start to.

[Aaron]

Five years ago. That started. I got a call right before the pandemic, ironically, to see if I would take on a special project to support technician capacity and capability when I was working for cat. So I spent five years figuring out and mapping out what is now workforce development and really understanding and helping everybody else understand, like, yes, we all understand the value of technicians, but here's what they bring to the organization and then here's how we need to show up differently within the CAT ecosystem as well. It was, you know, you've got, you know, the Think Big program, There's that critical mass as well. So that helps with a lot, but it's still not enough. I mean, you know, you look at cat, Kombatsu, John Deere, Hitachi, et cetera, these are all names that we know because we grew up around them. But again, you get outside of anybody that's, you know, not the core demographic, they don't know anyone from anybody. So that's also part of it of, like, how do we show up more not just in the way that we do things, but then also more proactively and publicly too, so.

[Brad]

Well, and you're competing against Ford, Peterbilt.

[Aaron]

Yes, and McDonald's. To be honest, I Mean, especially if you look at, you know, over $20 an hour for labor in certain states or certain areas of the. And definitely higher than that in certain areas of the world. And then you look at what some of the technicians are making sometimes, especially as they're starting out, you've got to have a really good kind of value prop or really good reason as to why you want people to show up and continue to show up and work for you versus just going down the road and doing 20 bucks an hour with no headache. So like you were talking about earlier too, like, yeah, I'll put in the hard hours because it's something that you believe. And I think that's. And you ask anybody working or that wants a job today, they would do that as long as they believe in what they're doing. And I think that's the unfortunate part where a lot of, a lot of employers like to say they're just going to chase the dollar or they're just sleeping for 50 cents.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Have a culture that's worth more than 50 cents, then.

[Brad]

Yeah. That's such a defeated, unproductive attitude.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

It just, you're the first person to lose when you have an attitude like that. And then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Now why invest in them? Because they're just gonna leave. It's like they are just gonna leave.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

That's exactly why you, you're the reason that attitude. And it bums me out. Because it's not in their best interest from an employer standpoint.

[Aaron]

Correct.

[Brad]

It's not in the individual's best. Like it, everybody loses there. And like why, why, why do we have to have that? And I get it, you've been, you've been burned. But this is where I think employers also just have to take more responsibility. It's like if you don't like being an employer, then don't be an employer.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like no one has a gun to your head, says you have to be an employer. You have to be a leader in an organization. Like, if you don't like that reality of having to deal with people, lead people, manage people, invest in people, then don't do it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like go find a job that doesn't require that. Like, I just, just. It doesn't. Like if you're miserable or if you're bitter about people, but your job is people. What are we doing? Yeah, what are you doing? That happens a lot. That somebody's really good, they're really good at turning wrenches. They end up running a shop, they end up Miserable end up bitter. I don't blame them for a lot of reasons, but go back to turning wrenches like. Like, don't run the shop if you don't want to. If you don't want your job to be people. And sometimes it's just because they don't have the skill set. They're told to go run the shop because they're the best on the tools. They're not given any kind of communication or leadership capabilities with that. And then it ends up being miserable. Like, maybe they would be good at it with those tools. They just don't have the. The tools. That's often the case as well.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's. That's always one of the biggest sins in leadership as well, is promoting a performer is like putting a fish on the high dive.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So, yeah. Similar area of focus, but a completely different skill set. Right. So that's the other issue is like. And we're trying to do that now at Komatsu as well, of like, how do we get more of this essential skills training? And what I love about Buildwood Improve? And what we're trying to kind of navigate in that space is getting more of that essential skills training, because that's the stuff that bites you when that person's a leader. They don't know how to have. Communicate or have effective communication or conversations. They don't understand what EQ is. They don't know how to show up for people. I mean, the industry has definitely changed now, but I mean, just from the mental health standpoint, too, it's completely shifted to the, to the positive aspect. But for years, like, not from a number standpoint. No, no. But culturally, though, I mean, for years, the last thing you would ask somebody is like, how the doing.

[Brad]

Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So I happy that we're starting to see that shift as well. But I think those are all those things that we just miss because we organizations, companies, et cetera, et cetera, they just assume somebody's going to get that training or that course, that leadership at some point in time and it's going to happen by osmosis. But it's all. It's got to happen intentionally, too.

[Brad]

Well, an oem, I mean, the technician is the face of the. The entire brand.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Entire brand. Yes. And I. If I polled a thousand people, what matters most with the machine, there's pricing dollars, et cetera. Like that is to up to a certain, you know, a small, small minority. But to most people, it's when it breaks.

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Brad]

How do you get it fixed? How do I maintain that asset like, great, I bought a shovel for $8 million. Whatever it is. That's just the beginning of that shovel. I'm now with that shovel 10 years, like that's a 10 year commitment that I'm making or you know, a 20,000 hour whatever it is, I don't know what it is but. And at the end of the day it's a technician, a group of technicians fixing and maintaining that piece of equipment.

[Aaron]

And I would venture to say that service will surpass in terms of preferences over technology in the future. How well do you support the product?

[Brad]

It already happened like that. This is where the OEMs, they, they're, they're, they're, in my opinion, they're out to lunch. But with the technology. I get the technology, but I think it's tone deaf. I don't, I. They're thinking, they're just saying we're just serving the customer. It's like you might be serving Mr. Global Mining Company that has this. But the day to day guy doesn't care. The day to day guy just wants service, just wants the machine to work and to work as intended. That's it. Like it's not that much more complicated and, But I do think like I want to give the OEMs credit too, or I want to give the dealers a lot of credit because I really think they, most of them really appreciate that and are spending a lot on service.

[Aaron]

Oh yeah, much more than we've seen in the past too. I think everybody had kind of learned the lesson in like the early 2000s of cutting your workforce and then bringing them back and then especially that demographic back then, once they left, that was it. Like people just left the industry because they had gotten burned so bad. So now more and more people are investing, you know, agnostic of oem, but they're investing more and more people than they ever have. And I think that's what needs to be done too. I mean, yeah, personally having seen and benefited from those programs, obviously I can tell the value of what that brings to an individual. But then more and more again, how do we make sure that we're a household name? It's showing up as those different ways, giving something for people to believe in and giving them a pathway into the organization too. So it's coming about. It's just taken a very unfortunately long time for the entire industry to wake up to that because I think up until the 80s we were pretty spoiled with people knowing what the industry was, knowing how to work on stuff, et cetera, et Cetera. Now we've seen all the shifts between policy, education, et cetera, that change, that demographics. Yeah. And we're not in a position to be waiting for policy to change because we know what's going to happen. You're just going to be weight and collecting dust. So it's the responsibility of industry to step in in the absence of education and legal policy to support this. So I think that's why we see more and more investment in workforce across all OEMs in this space. But the thing is, I mean, this shouldn't feel new. I mean, we had. This is muscle memory. We were doing this Post World War II when we had a huge surplus of people and a huge demand in the economy, but we didn't have the right skill sets. So we did all the training programs in house. Everybody was going through apprenticeships, everybody was joining a different union, et cetera. But it's because they knew when he joined, you know, that organ, that company or that union, et cetera, you were going through full training program and then you had a job that was going to be there for civil for the rest of your career. Obviously, that's all changed. Right.

[Brad]

Well, and I. World War II is, you know, a lot of people talk about the war and D Day and Pacific theater, etc. Like, like the US the biggest role we played was manufacturing. And that's what people. I just, they don't, they don't talk about that at all. But we had this crazy industrial base that we spooled up almost overnight to manufacture almost everything the Allies needed because we had the resources, we had the energy, we had the workforce. We weren't getting attacked. We were on our. We were safe and sound in our own world. So we could invest in the plant, equipment, workforce, etc. We could innovate because we weren't so caught up in the war on our doorstep. And even just, I mean, the amount of planes and ships we produced and ammunition, firearms, like on. The numbers are on. I mean, hundreds of thousands of planes in just a few years. To think about that now, like, we are so far from that.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I mean, just the red tape alone, I think you would have have missed the opportunity. No waiting for permits.

[Brad]

No. If you, if you just look at the numbers between the United States and Russia from a industrial capacity standpoint, like even producing shells, it's like 10 to 1. They're, they're just, they're just better at making stuff than, like, we just can't produce as. And so that's where I was on A Fox program yesterday for this. It's like, all right, everybody's talking about manufacturing now. That's great. How are we going to do it? How? Like, show me the, show me the plants. Like we were talking at dinner last night. It's like, I've been to China, I've been to Japan. Like, you see the manufacturing base. It's like there's a, even Germany. Like, there's a manufacturing base here. There is, there is infrastructure here. I spend a lot of time driving all across America. Sure. Do we have some manufacturing? Yeah, we do, but there is not that base that used to exist. Not even close.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And obviously we're in like a hot button or a hot era right now with policy. And I think there's a lot of intention to try and bring more on shoring of jobs. But, I mean, organizations have been around for a long time, too. Certain companies can just try to outweigh certain or outweigh certain policies as well, too. But I. Oh, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, we need to be bringing more of those jobs back into the US but get more of that mentality into the US as well. And I think that's one of the biggest issues that we run into. It's like we always talk, especially when we're talking at a policy level, we're talking about creating programs for willing and able people. That first issue is probably the biggest one that we run into, is are they willing to join the industry? And it's the unfortunate part of, like, there is that stigma that we're really trying to change, but, you know, getting out of that, you know, dirty, dark and dangerous stigma, what the industry is, and it's high impact, high potential, you know, all these other great things and high demand as well. But still the American consumer just thinks that those jobs are beneath them.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That they should be working in Silicon Valley or they should be an influencer or they should be doing their own thing, etc. And I think all that stuff is good. But if you look at the net benefit, where we want everybody to win these jobs is how we give more of that middle class that leg up as well.

[Brad]

I agree. Yeah. I, but I don't, I don't. You know, everybody's blaming this generation for, for thinking and wanting those jobs. But that's the bill of gold goods they were sold.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And it's turned out to be, in most cases, a, statistically speaking, a false bill of goods. You go to school, you invest X, you get Y, you're going to make a bunch of Money, you're going to have a great career, life's good to go. Yeah, it is. So far from reality. So far from reality. Like anybody graduating the business degree right now. So like bro, all right. Like people on liberal arts, so on and so forth. I'm like, yeah, try like a marketing degree, like a business degree. And like what you're learning in school, I mean I look at what these kids are learning, it's like I can tell you that's nonsense. Like I, I'm in the real world. It doesn't like we don't, we don't ask anybody what education they have. And in certain fields it still matters. Like if I engineering, you know, I have an engineering degree and or you want to go this, that it is like stem. I think I'm still a huge supporter of it. But you have a whole generation sold this bill of goods.

[Aaron]

Well and then also put it, we also created this model that really overlooks a lot of people as well because one, if you can afford or be able to go to college is one thing, but then two are even that learner type. Right. So if you're audio, visual or kinesthetic, like 4 year degree isn't the right thing for you or sitting in a traditional classroom isn't the right thing. And I think that's even where I struggled a bit. Like I was a decent student in high school, but then when I went to a trades program it was completely different because 80% of our time was in a shop lab environment and that's where, yeah, I would spend eight to nine hours working on that engine because that's what I wanted to do. Now all the respect for Mr. Carson, my geometry and trigonometry teacher, but I'm not sitting there for eight hours wanting to understand those theorems either.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's other thing. And I think again a lot of people have woken up to it. Obviously the pandemic, I think it was a secondary or unintended, I don't want to say benefit, but an unintended impact was people really woke up and started to kind of understand of like yeah, a degree is a way to get success in the war or in the US but it's not the only way.

[Brad]

Well, they, and they, they started questioning conventional narratives and one of that degree equals success. And it's like whoa, way. Wait, wait, what did the numbers actually say? And they started looking at number. Oh no. Yeah, this doesn't add up at all. But there's, it's, it's well beyond degrees, I think the whole degree conversation catches some people up too. Like, I think it's a silly conversation in a lot of ways as well because it's like, it's so binary and it's like that's not how the world works. It's like you can go get a degree and be a technician.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like why, why don't those two things, like those two things could go together. There's no, there's nothing to say. It can't. But there's, there's also going back to the willing. The willing word. There's a huge population, especially of able bodied working age males in the United States that are just out of the workforce. It's like between 5 and 7 million able bodied men outside of the workforce right now, not looking for work. It's not reflected in unemployment because they're not looking. Huge population, like industry construction needs half a million people. Like that's a small percentage of that total working age population.

[Aaron]

Oh yeah.

[Brad]

That's just on the sidelines right now for all sorts of different reasons.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you, I definitely get to say out of the political aspect of those piece, those discussion points, but the, at the root of it too is they're overlooked very simply at that point too. Yeah, they're completely overlooked as well. So they're not looking. But have they been looked for or have they been looked at or they're.

[Brad]

Just so disenfranchised by looking. Because I get so many messages from people like I can't get into the industry. I'm like, I can't, I can't get a job as a tech.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

I'm like, I wish I could help you. I don't know how to help you. I don't know. And they're just so frustrated. Like the whole just looking for a job thing is a grind that.

[Aaron]

And the, the thing that you'll find as well, you just start looking at job descriptions and the way that they're written, they're still written like we have too many people.

[Brad]

Yep. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

And I believe they were originally created outside of the, the Great Depression because you had an excess of labor but a shortage of jobs. So you could be as prescriptive as you wanted. Like, well, great, I want somebody with a degree, I want somebody with X numbers of years of experience that created the model that everybody just started performing on from there.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And the unfortunate part though is like, you know, we figure out, okay, this is what we're going to say for a job description for a technician or for a manager that's pretty much the formula that they've stuck with for a long time. So I'm even pushing back now and saying, do we need to be pushing or highlighting that they need to degree in there? Does it need to be the first common even or do we say equivalent experience and or accreditations to. Yeah, I think that's where more that that dynamic needs to be weighing out in the conversation. And the employers need to understand that they're as big of a part of the issue than they realize. And it's just the way of like certain things are designed the way that they're written. Hell, even in how they answer the phone. Yeah. How quickly are they getting back to individuals? If we covered recruiting the way that we covered sales, we would not have a workforce issue. I, I completely agree, but that's not the mindset of the ufo or, or.

[Brad]

If we just looked at it like it was. Yes, like, hey, hey, we have to be the one selling here. Yeah, it's like, yes, you do. Every single day. Not just to people on the outside, but especially to everybody on the inside. Every day you have to be selling. Why? That's how I view it. Every day I better be selling Build with to everybody that works at Build With. If not, I'm going to be in trouble. They're going to be leaving because there's a shitload of phenomenal opportunities out there and we've got damn good people. And when you have damn good people, there's great opportunities coming up on their doorstep. Here's a great opportunity, Here's a great opportunity. And every single day I better be. Here's why, here's why. Here's why. Here's why. Here's why, here's why. And if you like ironically, if you sell it best internally, the external stuff.

[Aaron]

Figures itself out 100% because they, they know how to sell the company because you've already done it for them. And it's just like hiring and referring people if. And that's what I've seen with employers across the board, the ones that get it. Their biggest contribution in terms of employment is through internal referrals and taking that same mentality within sales of like, if you have people repping the company on your behalf, you don't have to pay for marketing. You don't have to pay third party for a recruiting organization. You have people that know somebody that is going to be coming into the organization is more or less a qualified individual too. So I think that's where there is a lot of those struggles. And it's just getting people to understand. But again, it's just that. And the service environment doesn't do itself favors either. And I'll be completely honest in that space too. But it's getting out of that mindset of like, be quiet and go back, like to the shop. Just stay where you are and like bringing more of those individuals into the forefront because you've seen it as well, of like those individuals without trying to kind of whitewash it too much. But you know, honestly, if that product's working by the end of the day, then that owner operator has the ability to feed their family or make payroll by the end of the week. And without trying to kind of over inflate things. But I think that is a good reminder of like, the world stays running because of technicians and other people that are in the trades. Like, my brother works for PGV in California, works on the line as well. So like, his work is. Everybody has like essential work in this industry. And I think that part's exciting, but it just continues. It's almost like these roles of admiration. Whenever we start to admire something or say something is noble, that means that they're probably not getting paid that much or they're not that recognized. And we really need to make sure that there's that prestige and recognition as well, not just from the people working the organization, but then the prestige and recognition of, hey, I'm growing up and I want to become a technician. Right? Yeah, we know that that's not the case or what people are talking about. I think it's getting better. But definitely, like, when I was, you know, when I was 15, that was the last thing people were saying was to become a technician outside of my family. Now within the family, it was definitely like, yeah, keep going. And then like if you want to get your degree, et cetera. But I think that's the other part of it. Like, we need to make sure that everybody sees that there is esteem within the organization. Within all parts of the organization too.

[Brad]

So we have talked quite a bit about your past employment at a different company that paints stuff yellow. Current company, the paint stuff yellow. Komatsu.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Huge fan of. They've been fantastic to us. We're working through a bunch of stuff with you all now. I met Rod through an introduction via. What's the dealer in Montana? Washington.

[Aaron]

Washington would be Modern Equipment.

[Brad]

Modern, yeah. Modern, yeah. Through Jeff at Modern.

[Aaron]

Oh, nice.

[Brad]

Who I met through Dave Turin. So it was like a 1, 2, 3. To get 3 degrees.

[Aaron]

3 degrees to rod.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah. But. But yeah, Komatsu has been fantastic. I'm excited about what we have going. Bringing you in is quite exciting because I feel like you have a pretty big opportunity there.

[Aaron]

Oh yeah.

[Brad]

From like it's almost a blank slate in a way. Like I think it's, it's exciting what's going on with Komatsu because you have this pedigree that's you can't argue with. It's very legitimate. It's a powerhouse. The acquisition, the Joy acquisition, one of the best acquisitions in equipment ever. I would say that has worked out very nicely. And that whole set of companies, brands, powerhouse and mining from a Komatsu standpoint, it's a pretty robust offering that they have going construction as well.

[Aaron]

Like definitely our roots go back to mining.

[Brad]

Yeah. Just mining globally. It's like, like, like peanut shovels, Komatsu trucks. I mean just that stuff is world class. The drills, the underground equipment, etc. But so you have the pedigree, you have the equipment, you have the, the, the, the Japanese roots which I think is extraordinary in, in many different ways. But then you also have this American organization that is changing, is growing, is, is rods come in, you know, different, different leadership and there's all these different things being talked. Like there's, there's just a lot of excitement. I feel like whenever I'm talking with, with Komatsu, not that there wasn't before, but it's like, like we're going to the next evolution.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Which I think's evidenced by them bringing you somebody like you in as well. I think that's very forward thinking. So what are you doing? What are you doing there?

[Aaron]

So workforce development at Komatsu. But now I'm only focused on North America and my previous job. It was the entire world, which is fun to solve the world's problems but gets a little daunting. Especially when you have a six and a four year old daughter. It's a little broken.

[Brad]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

So kind of hit a reset. But it was the right, right decision for our family as well. As you know, I've known a lot of those guys for years. So to me like it's the industry regardless of what paint you put on the product as well. So we'd always had a dialogue and a good friendship. And then finally within this last year I was like, let's make things more official because I think there's some opportunity over here. Because again I knew what was possible and what we had achieved with my previous employer. But then now with Komatsu it's been this Blank slate. And it's been awesome because just like the level of access, like if I got a question and I want to run it by Rod, I ping him on IM or I just go ahead and do it. Like I wouldn't dream of talking to like a VP or group director in other organizations.

[Brad]

I just text him every once in a while and he gets back to me. He's like, wow, this is, this is great.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So that part's been good. The with the leadership changes that have taken place in the organization that shows the investments that are making for the future. Plus he, his background as well. I mean he's got a really good understanding of how the dealers operate in the field too.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's not to dismiss or say anything disparaging about our previous leadership by any means, but he has much more of that field experience. So he's going to get more and more that voice of dealer to feed back to the mother plants as you as we say.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I think that part's really exciting. And then with what I've been coming in is they have certain programs in place. Like they have a two year program very similar at OSU it in Okamoga, Oklahoma and then there's one up in Wahpeton in North Dakota as well. They crank out about 20 students a year between those two programs. So part of the work that I'm doing is seeing can we get more schools within the regions but then also work with the dealers to understand do they have educational programs through a school, do they have apprenticeship programs, do they have a program for military, do they have a program That's a fast track. So if they're coming from industry, we just need to change the paint job. Let's get them through that. So really the, the initial focus for us to understand what does the pipeline look like. But then where do we want to be in the future too? So that's where a lot of opportunity as well of like how do we market, how do we get more of that awareness. So people see us as an option to see about pursuit. And then also looking at how do we stay on top of that training too. Because with the training aspect and the development like. And again my personal experience as well, this is the first time I had actually loved my schooling and really enjoyed education too. When you take that away from people too, and that tends to happen after three years. Like hey, we invest in, invested heavily in you. You take your eyes off the wheel for even a few months when it comes to that individual, they're going to start looking elsewhere. So it's also making sure that we're working with organizations while still understanding they've got to get product out the door every single day. I mean, they have to service product.

[Brad]

Right.

[Aaron]

But really making sure that they're keeping an eye on their people and giving them a reason to come in every single day, too. Because if the culture is not there, I've got no ground to stand on as to why we're better than anybody else. So I want everybody to understand. And my own little legacy is I want my two daughters to see that they have a spot in this industry if they so choose to join it. But sometimes we're just not that welcoming because we're too conservative or we're too complex to work with with too. And not speaking directly about Kamasu, but I just think that's the industry at large is we're either too conservative, too quiet in our nature, and not out in the forefront. I think we need to be having more of those forefront discussions.

[Brad]

Yeah, I. But I, I think it, it also. That is unique in. In some ways to a Japanese company as well. As I've learned through other experiences, it is. It's just part of their culture there they don't want to talk about because there's this deep sense of humility.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brad]

It's viewed as boastful. If you talk about what you do and you. The product does the talking and it's like, well, yes, but you have to, like, sell the product to begin with, and then you've got to sell working on the product to younger people. And like, if you don't talk about it, nobody comes to work for you. And that's where we are. And that's not just Japanese companies. That's the construction industry at large. In a lot of ways. Like, that's, It's. It is quite. Actually quite similar to the heavy civil industry like these. A lot of these people that have built these businesses, they just want to build stuff. I don't want to talk about what I do. A lot of them I've known, they don't even put stickers on anything because they're like, we don't want people to know what that we're doing. We just want to build. We just want people to leave us alone. We're not here to advertise. I'm not an advertising company. But that. Yes, but no, like, yes, I get it. I understand. I can't argue with those. Like, I can't argue with that. But it's, it's. It's right and wrong.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. Inspiring and infuriating at the same time because let's let the work speak for itself. And I completely agree.

[Brad]

Yeah, I get that.

[Aaron]

Especially with customers like, yes, a good customer or a good operator is going to be happy with what they see and the work it's going to do itself versus somebody come in and talk about how great of an operator they are. Let's let them see or let's do the actual work and then see how things speak for themselves. But that again, just manifests through the rest of the organization as well. Of like, well, we're not going to be, you know, too far beyond our skis because that's just the way that we operate, which, like you said, I completely get it. But at the same time, it's like we've got to get out of our own way because if this is how we continue to operate, we will continue to have a brand awareness issue. We will continue to be not a employer or an industry of choice for individuals. Letting the work speak for itself, I think is great, but that's with the awareness that the work is going on, which again, as you see, you've made a whole career out of it. The lack of awareness of what all of our industries do for the common or the everyday person is a huge disconnect. And I think that's one of the biggest issues if, like, people don't know where the light is coming from and that light bulb as well, like what keeps the lights on, et cetera. So I think that's where we have to be kind of pushing and getting people to be comfortable with being uncomfortable in the industry of getting out and beyond. A little bit like, hey, we need to be make sure that we are promoting our work as well as getting that awareness. Because especially again, with that younger generation coming to the workforce, they want to believe who they're working for. They want to have a common mission. They want to be proud of that organization. They don't just want a paycheck on a 401k. I mean, a lot of people can get that right, but they want to be part of an organization that they believe in those values too. And I think that's where we can all find common ground. But how much do we boast about that? There's a lot of terminology about like, sage, which is like, really be more conservative and really just again, letting the work speak for itself. I guess my humble challenge would be to maybe drive more of a shokunin mentality in the US which in the Japanese. My very humble understanding of Japanese.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

But that is the artist. And I think that actually lands really well within both cultures because Sage, I think does land within that part of the world. But here that I don't. It falls on deaf ears where here it's like the hero, the faces behind the iron, like it's very rough and tumble. If I asked you to think about a construction based commercial in your head right now, I can pretty much guess what that soundtrack is going to look like or gonna hear or sound like and then what the people on the image are gonna look like.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Where within the US I think maybe if that's not the dynamic that we want to be promoting, then really going into this individuals, the masters of their craft as well, I think there's some opportunity in that too. And that you can do that in several different ways. The way you work on a product, the way you support a community, the way that you help close the skills gap with individuals in your different communities, etc.

[Brad]

It is, there's just, there is a big culture difference too from American versus Japanese in general. And just how we talk about stuff, it's like there's. I, I have not found a better way to explain it than like America. We just have a you attitude that the rest of the world doesn't have. And it works for us and against us. Like it's, it's a double edged sword for sure. But, but it's. And that's how the construction industry in the United States, like. Tell me. I can't. Tell me. I can't. Oh yeah. Let's go.

[Aaron]

I can't move that hill.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That mountain.

[Aaron]

Don't worry about that.

[Brad]

Yeah, it's, it's just, it's, it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a little less refined and more just like we're just gonna go hammer this out.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's the way I put it, especially in an office environment.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, is fire first, aim later. Right. I think that tends to be more the American mentality of like we'll just figure it out. But we're going to start where the rest of the world is really focused on foundations. So then they'll overanalyze everything sometimes to our deficit, you know, analyze everything to the fullest detail. But then when it's time to execute, like there's no question like we know what our ROI is, we know what you know, the, the efficiencies are the inefficiencies, like all that stuff's been mapped out. We're in the US it's like figure it out first and then we'll refine later. Right. So those are, and that's been part of my learning. Current curve coming into the organization is working on that kind of pre CI approach. But it's really helpful especially as we're trying to get support and then you know, a lot of decisions are still made back in Tokyo. So then we need to make sure that we're getting, giving them the, the ability to make the decisions based off of all the facts, all the information, all the data and looking at it from every angle where I was used to it beforehand of like, yeah, we'll figure it out and then if a VP asks a question, then we'll start to do the research.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, it's a double edged sword in both, in both ways. In what you said about trade schools producing. Yeah. Like 20 technicians a year in those programs. I think this is another conversation. I see all, it's like if, again if you turn on like a Fox News, they're going to talk about trade schools. Trade schools. They saw yesterday while I was on. I don't watch, I don't watch news. But I was watching it because, because, because of this. It was one of the only times I've watched it. But they were saying, yeah, pull funding over here in trade schools, trade schools. It's like that's fantastic. But based on the numbers, the numbers don't work. It doesn't matter. Like you can fill up all the trade schools and it's still a, still not a fraction of what is actually required here. And so it is. Sure. I think part of the solution is trade schools. Great. But I think a lot of it falls on industry, on private companies, on building the pipeline. Each company, if you are a company, if I'm a dealer, I need technicians, I better be building the pipeline I need. No one else is going to build that for me. And cool. Maybe I can draw from a program like a WyoTech or something like that. But so is everybody else.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And, and, and, and wyotech can only just mathematically speaking, they're, they're growing but they can only put so many students through there a year. And it's still just not at all what the industry needs from. It's just a, it's a math problem at the end of the day. So it's, you do as a dealer, as an oem, you have to build the pipeline you need, you have to invest in that pipeline or else you're.

[Aaron]

Just not going to have the, the workforce 100%. And that's more and more the discussions that we're having of like, grow your own is the best way to win at this too. And that's how you get people to stay with your organization for the long term. Because if they've already come to you within education or with training and experience, then what ties do they have to you other than like, they really like your brand or your company and what you're about? Okay, cool. That's a, that's a really good start. But what are we doing to keep the individuals here to make sure that they field, that they feel not just constantly employed, but constantly employable. So they need to be feeling that sponsorship in terms of extra training, all those different programs. But again, sometimes it's just a base level conversation that just does not take off too. So that's the, the hard part. And I think in the next several years we'll see a lot of organizations that have made the right decision continue to succeed in that space too. But yeah, it's not, it's not just on the schools. And to be honest, I mean, if school was free, I would still be having this conversation because I know that's a whole other thing of like college debt. And I don't want to make it come across that the trades or the industries that we serve at this like chip on our shoulder mentality.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But the opportunities are so awesome in this space that regardless of what the education costs to get in the industry, I would still be promoting the hell out of this because I agree there's so much to be done and so much opportunity here.

[Brad]

And that's why I don't, I've, I've gotten swept up less and less in that whole argument over there because I'm like, you're missing the point. Or, or when people, the whole industry right now is selling the industry on money. And I'm like, you're missing the whole point. The whole point that is, that is, that is not it at all. Like you can make great money as a technician. Fantastic. But like the point is being a technician. Like that's the point. And yes, you can make money. Check the box. But, but the, the bread and butter is the being a technician is the job, is the purpose, is the day to day, is the problem solved? Like, that's it. Stop. Money, money, money, money, money. And frankly, the money is not even that great compared to a lot of other industries. Like, we're kind of getting our asses. If the money was like, Dr. Money, I'd be like, yeah, it's money all day. But it's like, compared to the oil field. Okay, yeah, it's not that great. And I say that in jest, like, it's still a great living. You can check that box. But that's not. Like, if I were to go pull technicians, hey, why are you a technician? Their number one answer would not be money. Yeah, that's it. Like, that's important. They have a mortgage, they have kids to feed. They've got, you know, they want to go do, you know, fishing on the weekends, buy a bass boat, etc. Yes. But that. If that's the core motivation, you're not going to last as a tech. Because it's a hard job. It's a miserable job. A lot of days the machines break even more. When it's cold.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brad]

When it's hot, when it's wet. And they don't. They don't break in the shop. Yeah, they're out in the middle, you know, they're on the middle of the swamp. And you've got to go figure it out. And the customers told you one thing, but it ends up being another. And the part that you need is not in the branch that's 30 minutes away. It's two and a half hours. Like, there's all. You wouldn't do the job.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

If the motivation was just like, if that was the only problem you were solving for. There's a lot of other jobs that you could. That, that, that could give you that.

[Aaron]

I. But that's what I love about this whole industry is it's a labor of love. And I constantly talk about that. Of like, you have to love this because, like, again, like, the smell of grease should excite you. And if it doesn't, then we gotta have a different conversation. But that's, that's where I think we lose sight of that a lot too. Of, like, really, why do. Understanding. Why do people show up or why. Why should they want to show up and be a part of this too?

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And how are we showing up for them to support that? Because if, like you said, if we're thinking that they're only here for a paycheck, then we're not even thinking about them in the right way either.

[Brad]

No, I view, like, I understand that people, they have good intentions when they're saying that, but it's disrespectful. It's like anybody saying that you need to go out to the field right now. And you need to spend time with the people that you're talking about having to recruit. That would be a great place to start. And understanding what they do and why, like, and that's the story to tell. Like, that's how you recruit. And that I think is why you're so effective. And I mean, why I'm fucking waving this thing around. This whole I need something in my hand. I'm not like you. But that's why you're so effective is because you know how to turn a wrench. You've turned a lot of wrenches.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like you've been in that position. You're not an academic, you're not coming about, you know, saying, oh, here's how I think we can do it. And like, you know what's real, you know what's not. And, and again, that's, it's not just how we need to sell technicians, the whole industry, it's, it's. But, but technicians again, to me it's such, and I am romanticizing it, but I think it's extraordinary watching a seasoned technician work. It is awesome. Yeah, I could watch it all day. I'm, I feel like a six year old watching their dad work like in the garage. It's just, there's something about it that I find so fascinating, so impressive, the whole thing. And it's like we just need to bottle that up and, and use that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

To get the next generation door. Because that like money. A lot of people have that and a lot of other industries have a lot more of it. Money, money, money, like check the box. But a lot of people have that. What they don't have is what we're talking about. That, that just special, special thing that is wrenching on equipment, out with a big truck in the middle of nowhere, up against the elements. A problem you haven't figured out before. It's, it's, nothing's going right and you're, you're so frustrated, but you ultimately figure it out. You overcome the challenge. The customer's back to work and you're, you go home filthy, great day's work, and you're on to the next one, the next day. And that's not for everybody. That's not for most people. But that's the point. Yeah, that's, but that's why it's special.

[Aaron]

But you're talking about the world's best office for a lot of people too. So.

[Brad]

And, and if you put these, these people in an office, they would go insane. Oh yeah, they would bad things would happen if you put these people in an office. But, but that's again, that's, that's not where they're. They're where they should be. They have their own office. That is their truck, wherever they are, or a shop. Some people like to shop, some people like being in the truck. Like even that's a big difference. You've got to, as a tech figure out, are you, are you more happy with the. Happier with the shop? Are you happier in a truck? But it's, it's. I just, I get frustrated with a lot of recruiting campaigns and talking points now because it is like, it's just, it's not. I feel like totally respectful to the people doing the work.

[Aaron]

Well, and on its face, you've got it like we were, we walked into raising canes yesterday. The only raising canes I've ever been to with a dj, by the way. But.

[Brad]

Oh, that's the big one. Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

On the door it says now hiring flexible hours, 401k benefits, training, college reimbursement, all. And I'm like, you put this with any employer in the industry, they're going to say the same exact things too. So it's cool. Those things, like, yeah, they do matter. But at the end of the day, like, you've got to almost be going to this kind of like fringe benefit, like in a culture standpoint of here's what you're going to be doing with us and then here's what we can bring to you in with this opportunity as well.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think it's just because of the way that recruiting is because, you know, a lot of those organization recruiting organizations tend to be very, very lean, partially supported. If you have dedicated recruiters, amazing. And then if you have dedicated technician recruiters, hell yes. Yeah. But that's just few and far between sometimes. So that's the other piece of like getting, getting more and more focus, more intentionality with trying to understand the audience that you're trying to reach. That's where that stuff does take off. But I think that aha moment there is just hasn't happened for a lot of organizations too. So that's what. And that's what we're trying to kind of just kind of gently emphasize and say, yeah, this is what we have. This is just the way the market is now. I mean, it's about intentionality.

[Brad]

Yeah. But that's why again, like the, the. I've talked about this. The, the Marines are the only branch of the military that have consistently hit their Recruiting numbers. Because they say, listen, this, it's kind of a fucked up job.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

So take it or leave it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And it's totally counterintuitive, but you just tell people what it is. Like, I get the pictures online of a technician in a shop smiling. I get it. I get it. That's a nice photo. I've taken a lot of those photos. I like those photos. But my favorite photos of technicians, I have one in my head of some guy under a 963 track loader sitting on top of a landfill.

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Brad]

It broke right there. In the trash or in the waste for your landfill people. Excuse me, technical terms only. But in the trash, it's muddy. It just rained. His coveralls are disgusting. He's under that track loader because it has a problem that he's got to fix.

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Brad]

And if he doesn't do it, who is? That's the job though. Like, that's it. And that's what makes it like again, those, those days you don't want, you don't want to be sitting in trash every day. Like, I know I've talked to enough guys that I've had to take belly pans off 836 landfill compactors.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Like, I understand, or at least I've heard how to. Disgusting. It is.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Mine had a dead dog pop out of the belly pan. And I was like, I don't know if this is going to be what I'm doing for the rest of my.

[Brad]

Life, but those are the stories you tell.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

That's the stuff that, that, that you've remembered. Like you haven't remembered the changing cutting edges on a 14 grader. It's like that's the routine shit.

[Aaron]

Well, I mean, take that parallel to what you're doing in your own life, you know, training for a triathlon. I mean, I understand that there is a lot of, you know, good that comes with it, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of misery and like that mental focus that you need to be dedicating on that too. And it's like, like you said with the Marines. And I think one of their marketing terms is not for everybody.

[Brad]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Like, that's their directive is like, we are not for everybody by choice. Right. And I think that's even the thing within our industry. It's like, yes, we would take as many people as we can, but it's not for everybody either. But like, what you had talked about though, is those moments are key moments. I mean, I can name off, like A handful of times where it's like that middle of the night instance or 5am in a breezeway, doing an engine swap on a scraper, et cetera, et cetera. But those are the moments that like, really make careers for people. And it's like because of that job or that repair, you know, the, the highway job was complete for the paving project, et cetera, or because of that, they could keep operating for dust control, et cetera. Or like even another example, like brush fires in California or even down in Australia. That's what the techs are there to do. They're there to do the hard stuff, not just do the normal day to day maintenance and inspections. Like, they want to do it because it's challenging, because it's going to be hard, et cetera.

[Brad]

Yeah, those are, I mean, those are the stories the, the techs I interact with tell me. Like, they don't tell me, oh man, we had this like killer PM that just went great.

[Aaron]

I killed that certified rebuild, dude.

[Brad]

Yeah, man. Like that. Yeah, that oil change, just unbelievable. Nope. Or they'll tell me about the rebuilds. Like, this was the first one we've ever done. You know, this, this was the first one done in the world. You know, it's, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's this, the, the challenges that have been overcome.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

That's the kind of. And it's the type 2 fun while you're doing it. Miserable.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Horrible. Terrible. I'm never doing this again. But that's the stuff that makes it like that. And that's, and I think it's because, like, we, as human beings, we developed in those conditions.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brad]

And, and we're so, we're in this world that is just so soft and cozy and warm. We don't have to do anything hard now. But that's, that's how we developed as human being. Like, that's why we're here, is doing hard shit. That's the only way we've survived and, and grown the way we are now. But now it's, we're in this whole wildly uncomfortable world that is super, super comfortable. That. And it's people living in that world that can't understand, well, why would you do a job like that?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Why would you intentionally choose that? It's like you're missing the point. That's why you would choose it.

[Aaron]

And it's those experiences as well. I mean, it's all that skill set whether you're going to go out to the next job you're going to get something from that. But then also whether when you go into the next jobs, whether that's in that position or a different role altogether, such as sales, such as operations or becoming a leader, etc. Every single day I pull on something that I learned when I was an apprentice, when I was learning how to wrench on stuff too. And I think that's something that gets overlooked a lot of like those skill sets transcend so many other areas.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Of understanding, understanding how to work with customers, understanding urgency, understanding quality, et cetera. That's stuff you learn by being a technician too. And I think that's a big thing that gets overlooked a lot of times of like starting as a technician can really become a springboard for your career. And you've met dozens of people that are owning and operating dealerships throughout the world that started out pushing brooms or pulling parts.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh. Elphinstone was like, oh too.

[Brad]

Yeah. That's a crazy story. I mean even when I was with at Peterson.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

It's like I was with, with Dwayne Jr. Walking around the, the not city of industry. That's Quinn. What's the San Leandro? San Leandro. Yep. It's a crazy cool shop. Yeah, crazy.

[Aaron]

It's like a step back in time.

[Brad]

Yeah. But, but he's, he's just like telling you stories though it was, it was such a cool time because he wanted knows everybody in the shop. But two. Yeah. So you know, I worked on this here. We did that there. This is where I used to spend summers here. It's like, oh wow, you've been, you've been in the business and it's just, it's, it's awesome.

[Aaron]

And those companies that tends to be especially you see it a lot like these second third generation families or companies too when they grow up and they in the business and they get it. The culture benefits from that too. Like you see it innate. Like everybody knows Dwayne every like from the parts person to the person working in the, the canteen as well.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I think that's another thing that I again I love about that. It's like all paths, all pathways in this industry can start somewhere, but they can really end anywhere you want. The only limitation is the individual, not the piece of paper.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think that's one thing that our industry needs to continue to kind of pound out and make sure that everybody is aware of of like you can literally go anywhere in the world, do any job you want within certain limitations, but you can do A lot. Just starting out within any portion of the industry, just getting that foothold in.

[Brad]

Well, yeah, and, and starting as a technician, I think that's also, I, I, it's like, I get it, we need technicians, but it's like, oh, you need to be a technician. You need to do this, you need to do this. Like it's small minded. You'd be a technician. And then you could go do this. Yeah, and then you could go do that and then you could go over here. I mean, you could own a damn cat dealer. Like, it's possible. It's been done before. Is it hard? Yes, it's very hard. Good luck. However, it's been done before. Guy Fitter. Yeah, it's what they call Texan Australia. Fitter owns a cat dealer. Mm. There you go. And there's a few steps in between. But like, and in the amount of people you've probably seen in these OEM organizations that started on the tools at some point and now they're engineering over here or support over there or marketing over here or executive level over there. Like you can go anywhere. And even it's been interesting. Like, if you were to ask, I got an engineering degree. What did you learn in engineering? I would say problem solving. And that I had no idea how valuable problem solving is as a skill set and how many people lack complex problem solving. Like, it was just four years of getting the shit kicked out of, out of me mentally just solving harder and harder and harder and harder problems. That was the whole game. But now problems are kind of easy. Like it was as hard as it gets. So when I apply it to other places, except for women, those are, those are still very hard problems. I haven't figured those problems out yet.

[Aaron]

When you get it figured out, let me know.

[Brad]

Very complex.

[Aaron]

I haven't seen a book here yet.

[Brad]

Oh boy. But every, every other problem is like, oh, this is it. Like, oh, the flight's canceled. This isn't that hard of a problem. XYZ problem solved. I think it's the same for technicians in a lot of ways. It gives you this incredible problem solving ability that you can apply like what some of these people do outside of work. From a hobby standpoint. It's like, you did what? Like you built, you built what? Like, it's just, but they've just applied the skill set to other parts of the business as well in extraordinary ways.

[Aaron]

And that's the, I, I think that is one of the things that does tend to get overlooked in that space is that really that innate skill Set. And you do see it really take off. And again, for a lot of them, that's when agency is first taking place for them that they understand, like, holy crap. Like, I figured out, like, how to fix this thing too.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I think that's another thing that we really need to be emphasizing is like that personal satisfaction or. Or. Yeah. Satisfaction that they get out of a job well done, but being the reason the job was done well I think is probably the more important fact too. So I think those are all part of the messaging that we need to be getting out there and building more and more of that awareness. But like you said, it's just. Or you've seen too, just the attention or lack thereof that's out there for the work that we're doing is one of the biggest issues that we're running into as well. So that's where we need to kind of, again, not being conservative like we always have been in construction and mining, getting more and more out there at the forefront and helping people see that too.

[Brad]

Yeah. And. And I think it's not everything, but that's a big piece of it. Yeah, but just show the work.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's hilarious, though, because I've sat in on business reviews, consulting sessions, just sitting down, deep dive. And then we'll pull everybody from. Oh, we brought a consultant in from the east coast, and then we've got the head of HR for this. Da, da, da. And then, like, we'll have these rounds of conversations. The most effective ones is when they actually pull the technicians from the floor.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Go figure, you know? Yeah, go do. Go to where the work is, like, and then you'll figure it out. So then now, like, every single time I'm in on one of these conversations, like, who's a representative of the workforce to come in and have these conversations with us too? Because they're going to apply their problem solving to that scenario as well and quite often come up with a more effective or efficient answer that's going to be easier for them to execute because one, it was their idea, and then two, they're not being convoluted by some other corporate strategy or some other policy, et cetera. They're thinking brass tacks, like, here's the job and that's it.

[Brad]

Yeah, well. And this. And this goes to the generation that's making a lot of these decisions at the high level. They're the previous generation. So they're looking at recruiting from their perspective. It's like, hey, you are not the target demographic here. What you Want is irrelevant. Yeah, it's, you need to go talk to Jimmy. 26 years old, he's a technician, he's, you know, in the field, whatever it is. And we need to ask Jimmy why, why are you here? Why are you here? Like what's, what's the big deal? Why'd you join on? Like what, what, what are you thinking about? What do you think other people, like your friends would, would want to see this and that? Like that's how you build an effective campaign. You go talk to whoever you've successfully recruited in that demographic and be like, so how do we do this? Yeah, and they're probably going to tell you, especially younger, younger kids. They're gonna be like, let's go. I'd love to be, I'd love to help out. I'd love to give you some.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Ideas.

[Aaron]

I think that is one of the things that's very humbling as well is like, and I, I try to live it and I see it a lot but it's like kind of lift as you lead too because you see instantly like within a few months and that person's enjoying that job. They're already recruiting and trying to get other people to come and join the team too. So I think that's where we, if we did it right, it really pays off. But then also like going to talk to Jimmy, as you said, like in those conversations, it's nothing crazy too, of like what got him in the industry of like, oh well, I went and did a job shadow when I was 15 and actually really liked it. Or I had a uncle that did racing on the weekends and then got into wrenching, etc. Yeah, we need to be having more of those flashlight moments, as I call them, to where we are creating that environment where somebody can be there learning from a mentor in some form but that's really what gets them into the industry too. And then how do we create those flashlight moments? Not just, you know, again for the core demographic but then like one of the things I'm really trying to push on of like we've got a huge over overlooked population in like south side of Chicago. In other metropolitan areas, we do nothing as an industry.

[Brad]

Convicts.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So fair chance hiring as well. We're getting, we're taking steps forward in those spaces. But that's really, to me, I think that's the next phase and the next step of the evolution then is not just saying we're recruiting but being in those communities. Communities. Because you can't just recruit those communities and Say come work for us 20 miles away. Do they have a car? Can they get to you at 7am or do they have to take four buses? That gets them there at 10am at the earliest. Right. It means showing up and having facilities there, training there in the community center too. So I think that's one of the other big shifts that we need to be creating because it's. If we're talking about more opportunities and it's also about all those. The network of opportunity as well.

[Brad]

I would say though. Interesting. Interestingly, people in a lower socio. Socioeconomic class are probably handier.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Out of necessity, out of necessity. Survive or die.

[Brad]

Yeah. Like, like our family car, it went to the dealership. My dad was not in the garage changing the oil.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

But yeah, if you don't have the, if you've got a shitty car, you don't. Don't really have spare change lying around. You're not going. You're changing your own damn oil. So you're just by definition around that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Out of, out of that necessity. Which is actually quite interesting now I'm thinking about it there. That might could be completely false, but I would say they're handier.

[Aaron]

Yeah, no, I would say that's the case too. I mean it is kind of funny like just from like what I learned as being attack and then just other things. Like our dad didn't like us to be lazy on the weekends. So like we'd get woken up on Saturday, like, all right, here's how to change a sprinkler head. There's 35 out in the yard, so go and change all the rest of the sprinkler heads, etc. So that mentality I think does weave its way. But you also see that manifest in the work ethic too because those people that do understand, like, hey, this may be the only chance that we have, like they're definitely going to be more dedicated to that too. And I think that's one of the things that we need to be more cognizant of as well. Of like, hey, if we win them over, then they're probably one for life in a way. Or we can get them on a path to prosperity and then it helps them understand, like keep going in this pathway and then you're going to be successful.

[Brad]

What's, what's your advice to those younger technicians? Being from like being in those shoes?

[Aaron]

Just because the company says that they don't have a job posted doesn't mean they're not hiring is one and keep asking. I think that's the biggest thing is just say, okay, if I'm not hireable today, than what's going to make me hireable for the future? Outside of that, then it's looking online for as much free education as you can. I mean, there's got. Bill would improve is a great plug for that as well. But there's gobs and gobs of material out there that I think obviously, honestly gives much more of a step ahead versus when I was coming out. I mean, yeah, it used to be education and knowledge was Centralized and then YouTube and the advent of decentralized learning really kicked off. So now it's really. Effort is the only thing that's going to cost you money. So as long as you're willing to push yourself, people will employ you. And that's regardless whether you're working in the industry, if you're an artist, if you play guitar or you're an athlete, the number one thing that stands out for everybody, it's dedication and diligence. And that's probably. That would be my advice to everybody, is just keep pushing. Whatever you're going to do, just do it wholeheartedly.

[Brad]

That to me is one of the most impressive things from an employer standpoint is. Yeah, what are you into and how much effort you're putting into it. If you're into something, putting in a lot of effort to better yourself, I'm. Okay, I'm interested. This is, this is, this is a very good sign. It's to that note to working at a company, just because they don't have an open position in a place you want to go to within a company doesn't mean that's not an opportunity. And if you want to go somewhere else within the company you're at, you've got to ask.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

You've got to. You've got to take the bull by the horns like you've got to. You've got to create that opportunity yourself. And maybe it's handed to you. Maybe, maybe. But that's just not how I've seen it play out.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I think it's maybe one of the ads that book on women that you're writing, but.

[Brad]

Yes. Yeah. My next.

[Aaron]

The. The worst answer is no. Right. So as long as you get comfortable with hearing the word no, then there's really no limit because then you just keep showing up and saying, okay, cool, let's try it again and just understand why. Why was it a no then and what can we do different now?

[Brad]

But this, I think that's obvious because it's been obvious to me, but I've found that's not obvious. Even just asking. I, like, I'll. I'll just say I'll ask. Have you asked? Like, no, I haven't asked. Oh, well, I would try asking. They go ask. Yeah, they said, okay, yeah, exactly. Or they said no, but in three months, if I do XYZ potentially. Well, there you go.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And that's the unfortunate part, I think. Not to broad brush the entire technician population, but they wanted to be techs for a reason. One, they like fixing problems. But then two, they also tend to want to be on their own or kind of have that environment where they're pretty well in control. That doesn't really bode too well for somebody that's going to, you know, stretch things or challenge the norms, etc. So I think as long as we can continue to promote and like, make people aware of like, hey, challenge the norms or like, continue to ask, like, and making that known to them that they should be asking. Because if you don't ask and you just assume, then assumptions just going to lead to the worst of things too.

[Brad]

Yeah. Or, or I. The amount of times I have to just tell people, have you had that conversation? Have you talked to them? Yeah, well, they said this. Or, or over like, you know, in a technician maybe like over text message or an email. Like, have you called them? It's like, hey, let's try that. You know, before we get spun up, let's talk. And then if it's still this way, we'll figure it out.

[Aaron]

I'm pretty sure I've made a career out of consulting for the better part of 20 years just by asking that question.

[Brad]

Yes.

[Aaron]

The amount of times I've gotten like an email, I'm like, I've been trying to get a hold of this individual for like six months. Da, da, da. I'm like, well, have you tried that phone number at the bottom? No. And I'm like 10 minutes later. Hey, I talked to him in like three minutes and it's all figured out. I'm like, funny how that worked out.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Again, go the. Where the work is.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah. Or yeah, people get. It's so funny when like an email is short or something like that. Oh, they must be.

[Aaron]

Oh, it's all tone.

[Brad]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's an email. There's no tone to an email. Like, maybe. But I spoke with them. Oh, they're cool. Like, yes. They're just busy and they don't know how to email and they were just doing it on their phone real quick before they were off to something else.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's just.

[Brad]

Talking, asking simple stuff. It goes a long ways.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brad]

Man, that's pretty good.

[Aaron]

Awesome.

[Brad]

Yeah. Anything else?

[Aaron]

I think that's pretty much it. I don't know.

[Brad]

Anything to plug with Komatsu specifically?

[Aaron]

Komatsu is pushing forward. I mean I'm just one. No, I guess I'll try that again. Komatsu is continuing to push forward with me coming in the organization, that was one step, but we're taking several steps forward as well. So collaboration with Build what's going to be more and more prevalent as well as more just public presence and messaging too. We also are going to be expanding more offerings to get to those individuals that we had talked about too. So how do we unlock or open the doors for them? So trying to think, look at things like free web based training, free education access, et cetera to get them into the organization too. I think the timing is really exciting with the change in our CEO as well as with. With the changes in the organization and we're prepping for like a training super cycle with the effects of COVID and then everything else. Like we're continuing to need more and more investment in training too. And we're seeing the need or the justification for that investment as well.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I think that's where it's exciting. It's going to be interesting to see because right now it's really being not experimented. But the use case is within the US for now. But then if it really takes off then it could be going the rest of the globally too.

[Brad]

I think it fits and I think any developed nation has similar. I mean Australia, Britain, the EU pretty much Canada, New Zealand, even South America, Chile, Peru, any. I mean everybody kind of has the same challenge. There are other markets that don't. I'll be interested to see how Indonesia is from a labor perspective. Like Middle east is very different. So it's not like we'll be selling build and improve there anytime soon. They're from a labor standpoint, they're just not constrained. Yeah. And it's just a way different game. Way different game.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I mean like the Middle east specifically like you talked about, especially with the amount of people that they have coming in like their attrition's like over 90.

[Brad]

Yeah, but there's.

[Aaron]

But that's normal. And.

[Brad]

But if you're just. If you're hiring from India and Pakistan, like, like people forget how many people are in Pakistan. It's hundreds of millions of people. It's like, what. How many people are. And then India is. India, you've got, well, well over a billion at this point. I mean, that's. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of labor that you can tap into. And so, but any developed nation, like the United States, we. Japan is another one. Like, just. We're just constrained and we have to do more with the last. Cool. Well, I appreciate it.

[Aaron]

Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate coming or having me on, too. A lot of fun.

[Brad]

Thanks for coming.