Dirt World Chit Chat w/ Randy Blount – DT 370

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – "Dirt World Chit Chat w/ Randy Blount" (DT 370)

Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Aaron Witt (BuildWitt)
Guests: Ben, Chris

---

Overview

This episode of Dirt Talk delivers an off-the-cuff, in-depth look at the diversity and challenges in the construction and mining industries, with particular focus on how regional geology, geography, and economic trends directly affect infrastructure and earthmoving work. Aaron Witt is joined by regular guests Ben and Chris, and while Randy Blount isn't present as a longtime guest, the conversation offers "chit chat" ranging from frozen hydrants in northern climates to the pressures of explosive growth in data centers, power infrastructure concerns, wage trends, and unique regional construction practices.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Regional Infrastructure Differences

• Cold Weather Logistics: Hydrant Placement & Freezing

  • Curiosity about how hydrants are kept from freezing in cold climates; realization that hydrants in Europe are often below ground (00:00–00:31, 26:04–26:32).
  • Highlights significant regional challenges—what’s obvious in one area (e.g., burying pipe deep for freeze protection) is foreign to those from sunbelt states like Arizona.
  • Quote:

    "I'm an Arizona boy like you. I've never really considered freezing in my life... I've always been on the binary weather system. It's either beautiful perfect weather or hot."
    — Ben (26:34)

• Huge Geographic Scale in the US and Australia

  • Discussion about the logistical differences in America versus Europe and Australia; journeys that cover multiple European countries versus long treks within a single US state or the Australian outback (03:53–05:07).
  • Australian mining: Most population is on the east coast, while most mining is in remote western regions.
  • Quote:

    "Perth is the most secluded city in the entire world. It's the furthest from another major city of any, of any city in the world."
    — Ben (05:35)

2. Environmental Adaptation and Earthmoving Practices

• Jungle vs. Desert Construction

  • Contrast between intensely lush, constantly wet environments near the equator and the dry American Southwest (11:25–12:22).
  • Regional construction quirks: Mangroves in Costa Rica, fungus cycles, and how extreme environment shifts surprise newcomers.

• Diverse Approaches to Dirt Work

  • Enormous variability in earthmoving: Deep trenches for utility lines in Alberta vs. Florida's high water tables (12:07–14:04, 24:58–25:43).
  • Specialized Machinery Utilization:
    • Scraper usage for trenching in Arizona and Alberta due to deep utilities (24:38–25:43).
    • Slope board dozers: a near-exclusive Southern California tool for tackling massive slopes, with little migration to other regions due to unfamiliarity (17:27–23:06).
    • Quote:

      "Southern California is such a unique earth moving market. It is its own thing. Like that is 651 is getting pushed by two detent. Like that's unthinkable anywhere else."
      — Ben (23:06)

• Extreme Haul & Assembly Practices

  • Heavy machinery transportation is regionally specific; e.g., overseas mining operations build gigantic machines remotely and then haul them almost fully assembled, unlike practices in the US (15:00–16:15).

3. Weather, Scheduling & Lifestyle in Construction

• Surviving the Arizona Heat

  • Arizona’s relentless summer heat forces unique shifts: companies work nearly year-round, start extremely early to avoid dangerous afternoon temperatures, and rarely take lunch breaks (26:34–32:16).
  • Quote:

    "It's hard because you don't sweat. You do, but it's so hot that it evaporates... I think it's just easier for people to get dehydrated and, and overheat."
    — Aaron (28:11)

• Impact on Scheduling and Family Life

  • Four-day workweeks (4/10s) seen as ideal—early start and finish times allow more personal time and mitigate burnout (30:51–32:22).
  • Extended overtime (six-day or seven-day weeks) is physically and emotionally grinding, with increased stress on families (33:13–34:57).
  • Quote:

    "Working six days a week, let's not even talk about seven... That wears. It'll grind anybody down."
    — Aaron (33:43–34:02)

• Changing Seasonal Norms

  • "Winter layoffs" in northern states are far less common now, affecting the rhythm and expectations for long-term industry workers (34:19–34:57).
  • Quote:

    "A lot of young guys don't really like it... when you're 25, nothing better to do but work."
    — Ben (34:35–34:57)

4. Wages, Unions, and Economic Pressures

• Wages Stagnation & Housing Affordability

  • Despite reports of higher wages, actual earnings in some markets have barely increased over decades; house price-to-annual-income ratios have skyrocketed, making homeownership challenging for younger generations (36:28–39:56).
  • Quote:

    "The house was three times the annual income. Today it's seven... my generation are like, I can't even think about a house right now."
    — Ben (37:21)

• Union vs. Non-Union Compensation

  • Drastic differences in pay rates between union and non-union states (e.g., $20/hr in Texas vs. $65/hr in Chicago), and the complexities of benefit structures (pensions vs. 401ks) (40:20–41:33).

• Skepticism About Retirement Systems

  • Both pensions and 401ks are regarded with caution; the stock market's focus on a handful of tech giants introduces new risks for traditional long-term investing (41:33–42:54).

5. Industry Cycles, Data Centers, and Power Challenges

• Explosion of Data Centers and Site Packages

  • Since 2020, the rise of data centers, e-commerce warehouses, and advanced manufacturing has drastically inflated project sizes: what used to be a $5–10M job is now $20M+ (47:03–48:22).
  • Some data center shells are even speculatively built before technology requirements are finalized or even invented (48:43–49:22).
  • Quote:

    "At some point will they always need more buildings or will they start going back to the previous buildings and switching out equipment?"
    — Aaron (48:22)

• Power Generation as a Bottleneck

  • Rapid construction outpaces the development of new energy infrastructure. The panel questions how long data center growth can persist without a parallel boom in electrical generation (51:10–51:55).
  • Quote:

    "AI...will be limited by the amount of power we have. Yes. Power will be the limiting factor."
    — Aaron (51:11)

• Global Contrasts: US vs. China

  • China is rapidly expanding both its data centers and its power capabilities, while the US is not, raising concerns about sustainability of high-tech industry growth (53:57–54:33).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On How Construction Norms Reflect the Land:

  "Every region has its quirks because the United States is so big. Like, moving dirt in Florida is black and white different from even Georgia."
  — Ben (12:22)

• On Online Critics Lacking Context:

  "That's my favorite. When they're, they're rushing in to be smart. But in the process they're proving how unsmart they are by making the comment in the first place."
  — Ben (17:47)

• On Burnout and Industry Fatigue:

  "You just realize they've worked for eight months straight. Like, almost no time off ever."
  — Aaron (26:56)

• On Working in Extreme Climates:

  "A hundred in humid or 1 even 105 and humid. It's really miserable... Whereas 115 is like...It will kill you. Yeah, it will legit."
  — Ben (27:46–28:03)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–00:45 – Frozen hydrant problem; US vs. European infrastructure
• 03:53–05:35 – Geographic scale in the US and Australia; logistics of construction
• 11:25–12:22 – Jungle vs. desert environment for earthwork
• 12:07–14:04, 24:38–25:43 – Regional quirks in earthmoving techniques/equipment
• 17:27–23:06 – Slope board dozers and earthmoving norms in Southern California
• 26:34–32:22 – Arizona construction schedules, hydration, lunch, and heat dangers
• 33:13–34:57 – Burnout from six-day workweeks; contrast to winter layoffs
• 36:28–39:56 – Wages, cost of living, and generational struggles to buy homes
• 40:20–41:33 – Union vs. non-union pay and benefit structure
• 47:03–48:22 – Data center/site package inflation over last five years
• 51:10–51:55 – Data center growth vs. US power bottleneck
• 53:57–54:33 – US vs. China on infrastructure and power generation

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is open, direct, and laced with dry wit and personal anecdotes. The panel doesn't hesitate to poke fun at each other or the quirks of their industry, but consistently circles back to practical impacts and hard lessons from real-world construction work—making it both accessible and insightful for industry insiders and outsiders alike.

---

Conclusion

While billed as "chit chat," this episode offers a panoramic view into the lived realities of heavy civil and mining construction professionals, revealing how region, climate, technology, and economics shape the industry in ways outsiders rarely see. Whether discussing a unique dozer modification or the existential challenge of keeping up with data center demand, the team underscores: context is everything in the Dirt World.

---

For more, visit the full episode or join in at the Ariat Dirt World Summit (details at Dirtworld.com).

Transcript

[Aaron]

All right, I have a question. Maybe you don't have an answer. How do they keep their hydrants from freezing then?

[Ben]

That I don't have a clue.

[Aaron]

That'd be interesting to I. Somebody. Somebody will know that.

[Ben]

So in Europe I know they don't have hydrants. Typically the hydrants are in the ground.

[Chris]

Okay. Yeah.

[Aaron]

But still like if they're freeze layer, if you have to be at minus 15ft, that means they must like freeze to 10ft or something.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So like that means the top of it would freeze.

[Chris]

Right.

[Aaron]

Or maybe because there's. Maybe since it's under pressure. It doesn't.

[Ben]

I'm an Arizona boy like you. I've never really considered freezing in my life. The World cup is that in the United States?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, it's North America.

[Ben]

Oh, it's North America.

[Aaron]

So I think Mexico, Canada might have some.

[Ben]

I think Atlanta might have something.

[Aaron]

Atlanta might. It's like spread out all over.

[Ben]

Oh, in la has it? Oh, it's spread out.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's why I see there were. The proposal was for that. I don't, I feel like I should look up my. Look up real quick.

[Ben]

Well, because I heard there was some. Someone someone I knew was doing work. They have work coming up in Atlanta to prepare for the World Cup. I've seen preparations in la. I didn't put two and two together. And then LA also has the Olympics.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which is just going to be a complete disaster.

[Aaron]

But World Cup 26.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Aaron]

So I feel like it would be World Cup 26. It's. There's 16 cities hosting it across three countries. And I'm thinking that's Canada, Mexico, U.S. but I, I don't know for sure. But yeah. So the proposal was like, well, if we did this, I'm guessing there's, you know, high probability it won't happen. But the proposal was if we use existing infrastructure like they could, they could pull it off and have a high speed train from I think LA to New York.

[Ben]

I'm not the biggest, I'm not the biggest optimist when it comes to high speed rail in America. They are building. I think they're already, I think they're in construction. The high speed rail between LA and Vegas.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Ben]

Using the same interstate corridor.

[Chris]

Gotcha.

[Ben]

But that's its own track. The Amtrak stuff is interesting because I know the trains on the east coast can't run nearly as fast as they should be going because of infrastructure limitations.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Because the infrastructure is so bad. And then also in real news. I know, I think it's Union Pacific is trying to buy Norfolk Southern, which would make the biggest railroad company by a long shot in America.

[Aaron]

I've always thought, like, railroads should follow the interstate.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then you should be able to just, like, put your car on the train. Like, if I could drive my car on the train and go from, you know, averaging 70 miles an hour to like 120 and not have to stop or pay attention, that'd be pretty awesome. But you want your car.

[Ben]

That's.

[Aaron]

I think that's what's so hard about the train infrastructure in the US Is most cities aren't designed to get around without a car.

[Ben]

No.

[Aaron]

And so, like, no. Even if the trains, like, were great, you get to the city, it's like, what's the chances that you can get around the city without a car? Now it's getting better because of Uber and stuff, but still you get to a lot of cities and that's just not an option.

[Chris]

Well.

[Ben]

And people criticize us for that, but it's just because we're so much bigger than just about anyone else.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, the size of our country and the space we have, like, even our real dent cities are not close to like a Tokyo or something like that. It's just not. It's still not even that close.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't think we talked about this here, but I was telling somebody, like, I was trying to give them context for how big the US Is. And, like, we live in Arizona. I live in Arizona. It's not considered a big state, but I think it's like the fifth or sixth largest state in the U.S. yeah. And from the north, from the south border to the north border, what is it? Like, it's probably nine hour drive.

[Ben]

I was gonna say eight, but yeah, nine.

[Aaron]

And like.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, you can make it through multiple countries in Europe in nine hours.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Every time we go to Europe, it's so easy to plan because you can just like every flight is an hour.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

At most. It's, it's, it's fantastic.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

But then I was just doing logistics for Australia this morning, and it's just the complete opposite. It's a disaster. Getting everywhere because you forget how big it is. You're like, oh, I'll just like, you know, we were at one opera or supposed to be at one operation in the Pilbara, and then, oh, yeah, we have another operation you come see in the Pilbar. I was like, I saw the email this morning. I was like, great, that's right down the road. Like, that's not that not even that far. And I look it up, it's like a five hour drive. I'm like, ah, damn it. Like, nothing. Nothing is close there.

[Aaron]

Yeah, well, but it isn't. Like, I don't know, I'm not an expert on Australia, but like the center of the country is pretty.

[Ben]

Just nothing.

[Aaron]

Barren nothing. It's mostly just on the outskirts.

[Ben]

It's mostly the east coast.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ben]

Almost the whole population is the east coast.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

But almost the whole population is just between Sydney and Melbourne.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like, and you have Adelaide too.

[Aaron]

But, but most of the mining is on the west coast.

[Ben]

Central and west coast mining's all over.

[Aaron]

It's all over.

[Chris]

Okay. Yeah.

[Ben]

But that's why Perth is the, the most secluded city in the entire world. It's the, it's the furthest from another major city of any, of any city in the world. Perth, Australia.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Never been there, but it makes sense because everything's on the east coast.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's on the west, which is a five hour.

[Ben]

It's like, it's like la. So it's like LA with everything being over in Florida.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

There's nothing, Nothing in between. No Dallas. In between.

[Ben]

No Phoenix, no Dallas, Salt Lake City, Denver. Nothing. Nothing going on.

[Aaron]

That's wild.

[Ben]

It's extraordinary. Yeah. And it's, it's really beautiful, I think, I think it's gorgeous. But there's just, it's just kind of inhabitable.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's like. I have to see it. But some people say, like, Antofagasta is beautiful.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But I think that's a unique taste. It's so barren. Is parts of Australia that barren?

[Ben]

No, it's at least the stuff I've seen. Even in the Pilbara, it's like there'll be, you know, shrubs and stuff. Whereas in the Atacama, like, like when I was talking to the Chileans when we, before I'd gone out to the desert, they're like, oh yeah, there's, there's nothing there. And I was like, okay.

[Aaron]

Like you're from Arizona.

[Ben]

Yeah, I'm from the desert. I've been in the Middle east. Like, all right. Yeah, there can't be nothing. And you go out there and there is nothing like nothing. I mean, some parts I don't think rainfall has happened in 500 years.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which is why out there the lithium is very controversial because it's very water intensive to, to harvest, I suppose.

[Aaron]

To refine.

[Ben]

To ref. Yeah. But, but it's in the brine.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Ben]

So you have to pump the Brine. And then you have to let it dissolve.

[Aaron]

Gotcha.

[Ben]

To extract from. From the brine.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And I know that's been controversial there because they just don't have that much water.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I was blown away when I was there. I was speaking to the cab driver and he said something like, yeah, we get like 3 millimeters of rain a year.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I thought for sure. I didn't like, I. Maybe millimeters sounds different in Spanish than I thought. Like. And so I'm like, hold on. And I looked it up on my phone. I'm like, oh, sure enough, it's like. It's like millimeters of rain per year.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's crazy.

[Aaron]

Which is. It's basically do I think is what it is.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. I mean, even the Middle east, it's like, it's dry, but there's. I mean, I think it's quite beautiful. Yeah, I think it's really beautiful.

[Aaron]

It's wild, though, because it's. It's like it's on the west coast of. Of South America and it's right next to the ocean. So, you know, being from the U.S. i'm thinking like, there has to be a rainy season because you have all that moisture coming off the ocean.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And like white sand beaches this and that. It's not like that at all.

[Aaron]

Because the moisture comes the opposite direction.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And gets basically eaten up by the mountains. Like between the Amazon and the Andes. It's. There's like. There's like, no weather events from what I understand.

[Ben]

No. Well, it's so interesting how like the. I read a book called Guns, Germs and Steel, and the whole book is about, like, kind of the core question is, why did the Europeans conquer the world?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

That's it. Which is fascinating. It's like, why did they. Were they smarter and better than any everybody else, or was it largely down to geography? And it turns out it was entirely down to geography. But even like, like the Incans and the Mayans, you had two of the biggest civilizations in the world that didn't know one another existed from that, and they weren't even that far apart.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Just because of the geography.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which is just like. That's crazy. Just because it narrows down so much and the jungle so dense through. Through Central America, they didn't even know each other existed. And then you had the, the. The Mayans down in Mexico, modern Mexico, Guatemala. And then they had never interacted with anybody up in North America because then you had the desert.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Separating Them, like, the environment was just so different from. From the Great Plains area.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

There was just no interaction.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Chris]

Yeah. We were.

[Aaron]

We were in Costa Rica, my family and I, a few weeks months ago, and it was crazy. So, like, my wife took a picture. You talking about jungle, it's made me think of this. Like, our guide is walking us through the jungle to help us find. They have howler monkeys there, and our kids wanted to see the howler monkeys.

[Ben]

Did you see monkeys?

[Aaron]

Yeah, but it's funny because how are monkeys?

[Chris]

You. You.

[Aaron]

They're so loud.

[Ben]

Yeah, but they're like.

[Aaron]

Like this big. They're super small.

[Ben]

Very long tails.

[Aaron]

Very long tails. And then they make a really funny noise. And so, like, the guide's like, yeah, we'll get off the boat. Because you, like. You're like, on the boat in this, like, brackish water. They take you up, like, through the man. Mandrakes. Mangroves. Mangroves, yeah, mandrakes. That's biblical. Mangroves. And. And they drop you off, and he gets out, and my wife's like, where are we and what are we doing? Because our guide is barefoot in the jungle with a machete, just, like, guiding the family through it to find the monkeys. And it was, like, kind of surreal. And you think to yourself, like, yeah, if you. Like, for us. For us, it's in Arizona. Like, that's crazy. But you're like, well, if he came to Arizona, there's no way he's walking around barefoot in the summer in the desert.

[Chris]

No.

[Aaron]

And so it's just interesting. You just. You really get acclimated to, you know, where you live.

[Ben]

Well, and that goes to. We should probably talk about Earth moving at some point, but. Because I was near the equator. You were near the equator at the same time?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's also amazing. It's like, oh, this is what the world looks like when it rains all the time. When it's just warm and it rains all the time. Everything is green. It's crazy. Just like, there's plants on plants on plants. Every tree has this whole ecosystem attached to it of all these other plants. I've never seen this.

[Aaron]

Yeah, like, the mangroves, they all have a fungus on them. Like, anytime, like. Like, almost all of the mangroves have this fungus and it kills them, but it generally only kills the old trees. And so it's like. It's like it's this cycle. Like, it kills the old trees, and then they fertilize the ground so new ones can grow. But, yeah, like, there's A whole ecosystem is crazy.

[Ben]

I think the Earth moving tangent is that like construction, moving dirt, et cetera. Because you had always done it in the Southwest and then you went to Mississippi.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's different.

[Ben]

Learn some things.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

About Earth moving in the South. But it's like every region is so different. Every. Every region has its quirks because the United States is so big. Like, moving dirt in Florida is. Is black and white different from even Georgia.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like just one state over.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, the sand, the salt.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, the. Where it does on your undercarriages in Florida is way different than parts of the country.

[Ben]

Just like the water table.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Water table. Super high.

[Ben]

The water table.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

In Georgia, that's not really a concern with Earth moving. But in Florida, I mean, I've seen guys, they're putting in. They're installing manholes, wearing scuba gear. It's like, what is this? But it's like they just. They can't pump the water out fast enough, so they have to just put it in when those flooded.

[Aaron]

Well, and then even just. It's. It's not even just like the environment. It's also just like. There's also norms. Like, when we went to Mississippi, the ground is soft, so you generally have. You have smaller machines generally. But then, like, come to find out, it's also bridge loss. So, like. Yeah, we're like, oh, we'll just bring some bigger equipment. We can get, you know, low ground pressure equipment that's larger. No big deal.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But then, like, you know, moving. I think we moved a 385 in there. And moving a 385 into Mississippi was. Was challenging. And Louisiana was tough, too.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Just because bridge laws are different and everyone. Everyone gives you different capacities for axles depending on what type of trailer setup you have. And so some of that's like regional, just like norms. Like, I. I don't get the whole bridge law thing. Like, to me, if it's an interstate, they should probably be all on a. Like a similar one, but it's just not that way.

[Ben]

Well, I see this is where, like, being in Dubai, it's awesome because they'll put. It'll be seven axles.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Three axles on the truck, four on the trailer, and they'll have two D8s on the trailer.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I think you. I think you had a picture of one of that, didn't you? Yeah, you had a picture of that. And I was like, what the heck?

[Ben]

It's so cool.

[Aaron]

Or they'll move, which is wild, because their ground Is like they have a lot of sand.

[Ben]

Yeah, but, but I mean you don't have compaction issues with sand.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ben]

I mean I, it seems to be working out for him. But like I saw. Yeah, two D8s on a trailer and then they'll move 395s fully dressed. They'll take the stick off for clearance I think.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Ben]

But 395 on seven axles. On seven axles. Which is just mind boggling.

[Aaron]

And it's not like it's. They have like a dolly and a Jeep or anything. No, no, it's like just one.

[Chris]

One.

[Aaron]

One trailer with seven axles.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's. It's incredible. It's incredible. And then places like Alberta or we're trying to. In Australia, we're trying to go see some heavy haul there. They'll build the majority of the machine at the. They have like, like the cat dealers in the States are like. Yeah, they're pretty good size. But then you go to the cat dealers abroad in the mining markets and it's just. Yeah, I mean it's like, it's like Empire Mesa but bigger at some of these facilities.

[Aaron]

Well, because they'll assemble almost the whole thing. Yeah, right there.

[Ben]

Yeah. So they'll build the whole machine and then they'll just slide a full float underneath it, lift it up and then just drive down.

[Aaron]

That's how that fitting because I saw the finning dealer in Antofagasta. That's how it was.

[Ben]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Aaron]

Similar to Canada since they're also in Canada. Like they'll put together a 794 I think. 794 without the bed. And they'll transport it.

[Ben]

Oh they'll do 797s with the bed.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Ben]

The whole thing.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's wild.

[Ben]

Fully dressed. And then in, In Chile it's 798s.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So crazy.

[Ben]

Over 400 ton truck, ultra class truck, just bed everything, hauling ass. They don't. They take the inner two tires off. But that's the only thing that doesn't go.

[Aaron]

So it can sit on the trailer again.

[Ben]

Yeah. So the trailer can slide underneath it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[Ben]

But that's it. If you're looking for another industry event that is a snooze fest, this is definitely not for you. But if you're a leader looking to elevate yourself, your team, looking for like minded individuals that are hungry, then look no further than the Ariat Dirt World Summit November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas. In our third year we'll have about 1500 hungry industry leaders from about 500 companies looking to learn, grow, teach. It's going to be fantastic. We also have a world class lineup. We've got Jesse Cole from the Savannah Bananas, James Clear, Atomic Habits, Kim Scott, Radical Candor, Mark Miller, Chick Fil A leadership. Tim Grover who is Michael Jordan's trainer. You will not hear from a lineup like this anywhere else. So check out details now. Dirtworld.com you can use code AARON10 for 10% off any registrations and we'll see you November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas.

[Aaron]

It's interesting because like you see the, the, the trolls on the Internet, they're like so quickly to point out how things are being. Doing. Done wrong. Yeah, but, but they don't necessarily understand kind of the regional. But you don't really engage. So how do you, how do you, like, how do you handle that when people just like.

[Ben]

I don't bother with it because it's like they're just, they're demonstrating their ignorance by making comments like, that's my favorite. When they're, they're rushing in to be smart. But in the process they're proving how unsmart they are by making the comment in the first place. And then I just, I just let it hang out there. It's like.

[Aaron]

Because then somebody else defends it because.

[Ben]

Anybody that knows what's going on sees that they're a dumb. Dumb. So it's like I don't need to say anything.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's true.

[Chris]

But.

[Ben]

And now it's like I just, there's so much going on in comments. I don't, I don't need to comment.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Other people will comment and argue and this and that and it's, it's actually quite funny.

[Aaron]

Talk to me about the slope board because I feel like the slope board is a California thing. Just California. Like just California. I don't see them anywhere.

[Chris]

No. Okay.

[Aaron]

I don't know if you had been able to see them anywhere else because the Southern California market is a huge slope board market.

[Ben]

Yeah. And I think it's because Southern California just has a lot of giant slopes.

[Aaron]

They do.

[Chris]

That's true.

[Ben]

It's all just hilly, but it's really good material. So you're very rarely in rock and so you can just pull a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 or.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think real estate is just enough that like they literally can move mountains. Like lots of places in the country you can't afford to move a mountain because it's expensive.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But their Real estate's so high, I think they can just afford to.

[Ben]

Well, and yeah, especially now like, because obviously everything got developed, you know, closest to the coast first or flat areas. But then you, I mean you push into the hills pretty like San Diego.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I mean you start to get in the hills like right away.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And so with the cost of real estate, once previously like unthought of pieces of ground are being developed. But that landfill project, I mean that cut, that must have been like 150 foot at least. Maybe like 170. So they're pulling. It's 170 foot cut from the top to the bottom and they're pulling that slope all the way down and they, they kind of tear it for erosion sake. But I mean that's, it was a two to one all the way down.

[Aaron]

That's wild. I don't, I think, I'm trying to think like we had some job sites that had like 40ft of vertical change.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And some trees and stuff. And I think we'd have to move our GPS as the, as a job like progressed because you start losing like coverage or your coverage. You're like, you're having like a bigger correction.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I can't imagine 100 something feet.

[Ben]

No, we stayed, we stayed down the road in Orange county and even just like the MSC walls that they build and then put houses right on top of like we were staying in this condo. I wouldn't buy that. I mean, good for the engineers, good for the developer.

[Aaron]

But the MSC wall was like, but.

[Ben]

Staring down at this and I mean it was, it was like I don't know, 50 foot. It was between 50 and 100ft. Like a monster MSC wall to make the project viable. Somehow it's viable. Like that's how expensive the real estate is. It justifies an MSC wall that big. And then they put houses up top and I'm like, this is a lot of faith in whoever was the geotech on this project.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

So like the mechanically stabilized earth wall, the MSC wall is an interesting thing because. Because they, they're very cost effective. But have you ever seen when they fell? Yeah, they are wild.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because, because like you get a little bit of piping where the material is getting pulled through because of, of water usually. And then when they, when they fell, it's not a good day.

[Ben]

No.

[Aaron]

Because it usually, you know, it usually ends up being a complete failure, at least for a part of the system.

[Ben]

Well, and with, yeah, with that. And you put, you know, your condos just sitting up on top of it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So if that's going to go. It's going to go.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Granted, engineers here like bacon multiple levels of safety factor, so, yeah, probably very safe. But still, when they do, like, it's.

[Ben]

It's.

[Aaron]

It's crazy. Have you seen the MSC walls at.

[Ben]

Is it C. Yeah. Like Seattle. Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, that Runway is crazy.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Runway is like, way up in the air.

[Ben]

Yeah. And when you drive under it, they have the, like, approach lights.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

On. On, like this whole, like, lattice system up. Way up above you.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

That airport. And then. Then Telluride. Telluride. Airport's crazy. Telluride's wild because it's like. It's like basically on top of a mountain. It's like Sedona. Sedona and Telluride are very similar.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They're up on like a. On a mountain bluff. And like, the runways, like, end and it's like drops.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

But the slowboard thing, almost every dozer has one in Southern California.

[Aaron]

I mean, and some of them have two.

[Ben]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Sometimes dual slow boards. Yeah. You used one on a small dozer for basements.

[Aaron]

Yeah, we use it for the basements. We had. We had one we'd put on there, and we trimmed basement walls with it.

[Ben]

Which worked like a charm.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

But outside of that, like, we were one of the few people who had one, and they weren't super common. And I always wondered if they. It was just a California thing or if there was other parts of the country.

[Ben]

But I'll. I'll see them in other parts of the country occasionally. But it's a California machine that they've brought somewhere else.

[Chris]

Gotcha.

[Ben]

But no one knows how to use them. It's just like Southern California is such a unique earth moving market. It is. It is its own thing. Like that is 651 is getting pushed by two detent. Like that's unthinkable anywhere else.

[Aaron]

I've never seen it. Besides in California, I've only seen it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In Arizona they have. You know, I've seen them run 57s and 51s in Arizona and do it well.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Although 51s aren't as popular in Arizona. So 57s, there's a fair amount. Because of Rummel.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's. It's Rummel's fleet. And then, you know, for TSMC.

[Aaron]

But 51s was very rare. But 31s, there's probably a dozen contractors at least that run 31s quite a few.

[Ben]

And like smaller spreads.

[Aaron]

Yeah, even Knuckle Brothers has a good amount.

[Ben]

Yeah, Knuckle Brothers has quite a few.

[Aaron]

And then, you know, I think fan might have a few. Quite a few fam.

[Ben]

I know Hayden has some 27s, maybe 37s.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, there's.

[Aaron]

There's probably. Like I said, maybe a dozen.

[Ben]

They were actually, Hayden, I went to dinner with my mom last time I was in town. My friend's a civil engineer and he's been sending me pictures of this project. It's probably like, probably like 120 inch RCP.

[Chris]

Yeah. Right.

[Ben]

By the 202 and the 101.

[Chris]

So.

[Aaron]

I know, I know. It's that I've seen. Yeah, they use that scrapers to bench down, I think.

[Ben]

Yes, yes, they use. Yeah, they've like to pre. To pre cut for that because it's so deep. Yeah, they've been using 27s.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

To cut some of the trench, which is. That's a big trench which is.

[Aaron]

I feel like a kind of more of an Arizona thing. Maybe they do this in their parts of the country too. But I feel like there's been many times in my career where somebody said, hey, could you bring your scrapers in? We want you to bench down 15ft so that we can then install sewer or something.

[Ben]

You know where I've seen it is Alberta, because their utilities are so deep.

[Aaron]

I can see that.

[Ben]

So. Because I was a dumb, dumb when I went up there the first time, like, water in Phoenix is like four feet.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, there's no, there's no freeze.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I go up there, I was like, why are you guys putting water 15ft? Like what's going on here? And they're like, because it freezes. Dumb dumb. Like, we've got to put it far enough downward, doesn't mess with it. You're like, oh. But then you just have these. And then they'll, they'll put, you know, three, three lines within the same trench. So everything goes in the same trench. And so they're laying this stuff back. Like, I mean, just way back. Way back. It's. It's crazy how much dirt's being moved.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But they, they use, they use big machines because of it.

[Ben]

Oh, everything is 90, 90 tons.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's like, that's another example, like the Internet trolls, like you installing water line with an 8, you know, an 800 or an 80 ton machine.

[Chris]

Right.

[Aaron]

Like, I can't remember who.

[Chris]

I.

[Aaron]

Somebody up there runs John Deere 870s a lot, I feel like. Yeah, yeah. One of the ones that's. That's visible on social.

[Chris]

All right.

[Aaron]

I have a question. Maybe you don't have an answer. How do they keep their hydrants from freezing then?

[Ben]

That I don't have a clue.

[Aaron]

That'd be interesting to somebody. Somebody will know that.

[Ben]

So in Europe, I know they don't have hydrants. Typically the hydrants are in the ground.

[Chris]

Okay. Yeah.

[Aaron]

But still, like, if they're freeze layer. If you have to be at minus 15ft, that means they must, like, freeze to 10ft or something.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So, like, that means the top of it would freeze.

[Chris]

Right?

[Aaron]

Or maybe because there's maybe since it's under pressure.

[Ben]

Doesn't. I'm an Arizona boy like you. I've never really considered freezing in my life. I tell everybody I've always been on the binary weather system. It's either beautiful perfect weather or hot.

[Aaron]

Or hot as heck.

[Ben]

That's the only. The only two options in Phoenix. But that's why. But then also, like a quirk in Phoenix is that you work.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

52 weeks a year.

[Aaron]

Yeah. People don't get it. Like, I tell people all the time, like, towards the end of summer, it's hard. Like, most contractors will tell you coming. Like, August is really hard. And people are just kind of pissed off at each other. They're like, like, no, I'm like, I. I'm telling you, I've done enough. You, like, you. You'll be coming in August and you're like, why is everyone at everyone's throat? And then you just realize they've worked for eight months straight. Like, almost no time off ever.

[Ben]

And it's.

[Aaron]

And it's hot, hot, hot as hell.

[Ben]

Literally. Like it doesn't get hotter.

[Aaron]

Yes. Like, it could be 115 degrees and you could still have some humidity in the air. It's. It's not Nashville humidity or the South. But. But during monsoon season, it can still be, you know, humid enough that 115 feels brutal.

[Ben]

But I try to explain it. Like 100 in humid or 1 even 105 and humid. It's really miserable.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ben]

It's really unenjoyable. But it's fine. Like, you'll be fine. Whereas 115 is like.

[Aaron]

It'll kill you.

[Ben]

It will kill you. Yeah, it will legit. And yes, I know 105 will as well, but it's like, it's. It's dangerous.

[Aaron]

Well, it's. It's hard because you don't sweat. You do, but it's so hot that it evaporates.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You don't notice it. And then, you know, if there's not a breeze, like it really feels like you open the oven and then before you know it, like, you can be dehydrated and be dehydrated in a bad way because, like, you're not. You don't feel sweaty.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Or if you do, it's not like if you were here and you're dripping wet. So I think it's just easier for people to get dehydrated and, and overheat.

[Chris]

Well.

[Ben]

And I, I would just like, some days you just get busy. Like you have to drink water. Like it's a chore almost.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You got to like, drink like a bottle or two an hour.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah. And if, but if you, if you get busy for an hour and forget you're behind, probably not that day, but probably tomorrow as well. Like, it's so easy to get behind on it. And when you get behind, there's. There's no coming back.

[Chris]

It.

[Ben]

It'll take you down.

[Aaron]

Well, and then it's. Because it's so hot. And this is going to sound like you can work in Arizona. It's not a bad place to work. But it's, it's different, just like we're talking about. But because it's so hot, you start so early and like, that's a different thing because like, Arizona doesn't go on daylight savings time, so people don't realize. When we say like, people start early, it's not just construction, like, or it's not just concrete. Who has to.

[Ben]

Because concrete's like way early.

[Aaron]

It's like midnight.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Midnight pores. But like, there's a lot of dirt utility crews that are starting 4:30am yeah.

[Ben]

We, we would start at.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

4:35. So that, but that, that's when I started traveling. And they'd be like, yeah, we fire up at 7. Yeah, I'd be like 7.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What are you guys doing starting at 7?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, because, I mean, it's. It's probably what, between 4:35 is when it gets light in the summertime.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

4:30.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

So you can kind of get away with it. But. But you don't want to be working after too. Like you. No, like you, you can, but. But it's dangerous. It's really dangerous.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so the thing that's interesting about is like, your sleep gets really hard in the summertime because to get up at 4:30, like you need to be going to bed. At 8:30, most people, I think that's hard to do.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Especially if you have family.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like they're not on your. And then especially summer with kids.

[Aaron]

Like right now I'm getting up between 4:30 and 5 because I coach football and we have to practice that early and like, like I have to find the time to take like a 20 minute nap every day or else I'm done. Because they're, you know, they're not going to bed before 10 o' clock. And I have older teenagers. It's most of the time it's like midnight. So it's, it's different.

[Ben]

Yeah, we one schedule. My favorite schedule was we did four tens with Pearson.

[Aaron]

Four tens is great.

[Ben]

We started at 4:30, ended at 2:30.

[Chris]

That's yeah.

[Ben]

4:30 at 2:30. It was awesome. Yeah, it was so nice. And there's no lunch in Arizona either.

[Aaron]

Very rarely you kind of just eat in your cab.

[Ben]

That was one weird thing about leaving as well. Yeah, everybody just, you just kind of eat, especially Lane pipe. Like you're not going to stop. Yeah, just keep going. Just eat while you can.

[Aaron]

Like while, while somebody's coming or.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. There's always, there's always a gap in somewhere. Yeah, but that's, that's how I came up too is like you just keep your lunch close. If it gets too far from you, you're not eating.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

No, for sure.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Even the paving crews, like they're warming up their lunches on the paper. They're eating as they go.

[Ben]

You'll see guys on the back of the screed with a sandwich, you know, as they're like adjusting the screed, taking a bite of sandwich.

[Aaron]

I think it's because you're drinking water all like, it might just come from that. Like you're drinking kind of all day and you have to. So I wonder if that's how we got that habit because. Yeah, very normal. Just to kind of eat as you go and drink as you go throughout the day.

[Ben]

Which honestly I prefer. Like the whole lunch thing I don't understand but I know that's a big deal and a lot of other places, a lot of other cultures. I just think it's kind of a waste of time. Yeah, I'd rather just work.

[Aaron]

I'd rather work four days a week. Yeah, like I think a four day work week is actually really, really great.

[Ben]

No, it was, we were doing, it was a sewer line job out in like Gilbert and Yeah, four days a week, four tens. It was, you know, July August, it was hot.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So by 2:30 it was pretty diabolical, but best schedule I've ever had.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because it like if you, if you can use your Friday, a couple, couple Fridays a month to kind of do your chores and catch up on things, then you actually have a two day weekend.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Whereas when you're working, this is what I think people forget. I don't remember who posted this. Maybe someone from FMI posted recently said a lot of general contractors, you know, have, have exited the self perform and like self performing anything. And so you have a lot of builders who kind of dictate schedule without having real experience.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Or skin in the game.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So their, their solution. And I've seen this, I've seen it on data centers too where the schedule's really tight. It's like the solution is just more people, more days.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And they just don't understand working six or seven days a week for a long period of time is really hard. And it's not just really hard because it's like draining physically, but like the emotional and like family fallout is tough.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

When you're, when you're working six days a week, let's not even talk about seven. And then you're trying to cram kind of everything into one day taking care of chores and trying to do family stuff and make it to church, whatever you have and then get right back to it. Like that. That wears.

[Ben]

It'll grind anybody down.

[Aaron]

No. I think some of the northern states, they can get away with it. I think it's still really tough. But then they, they kind of have a reset where they have multiple months where they don't work as much they used to. Not as much anymore.

[Ben]

No. Like the winter layoff thing is less common. It's almost like died pretty quick. Like it's, it's, there still is, there still is layoffs.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's not what it used to be. Not even close to what it used to be.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And I think part of that is dictated by the work part of that. Like I know a lot of young guys don't really like it. I like, I know the older time guys really liked it because they, they built like their whole life on it was listen, I work for eight months, nine months and then I get three, four months off. But then the younger guys are like, I just want to work. Like what do I do for three months?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

You know when you're 25, nothing better to do but work. It's like, I get that.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So they probably prefer Like I'm saying, more of a four, four day work week or something.

[Ben]

Yeah, the. Like you were saying. I talked with a friend who, who does electrical, big electrical contractor for data centers. And their solution they were working on is just more crews, more people. So, so constraining each crew's work hours to 35 to 40 hours a week. But then to meet the seven day schedule.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Rotating them in, in 24 hours a day. Some of these operations, they don't stop. Yeah. Just rotating crews.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's hard because you can't just like make people from nothing.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

No, because we did this when we did the stadium project, it was, it was around the clock six days a week. And like that's tough.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I mean this stadium here, very rarely do I see that project ever shut down.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I guess a business owner was tough. I tell people that's, that's one of the things that, that's one of the reliefs of not owning a construction company was that fear that something would happen to somebody at night.

[Ben]

Like you go to bed, you wake up.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And like if your phone rings, you know, it's not good.

[Ben]

I do wonder, a lot of people have talked about how construction industry people are making more money, but I do wonder how much of that is overdone.

[Aaron]

That's a fair, that's really fair.

[Ben]

Because I don't think wages have really grown that much.

[Aaron]

Probably not. Because wages were so high in the housing boom. If I think about like that now, it was obviously a peak. So now we're saying, you know, from, from a peak to now, what does that look like?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But I bet you it's only a couple dollars an hour more in the Arizona market than it was in the, oh, 6 to 08 era of the housing boom.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which over 20 years almost. That's not substantial. I mean, if you think about inflation, if inflation was 3% over that 20 years, we should about have doubled wages.

[Ben]

Well, but in that I even heard a statistic the other day, like when my dad's generation was buying a house.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

The house was three times the annual income.

[Aaron]

This is crazy.

[Ben]

On average today it's seven.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then I have my dad's generation, the baby boomers being like, well, we did it, you should do it too.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And meanwhile they're in their house with five bedrooms for them and it's talking about how much money they've made because, because they're smart. But no, they just bought a house and it's appreciated so much. And then people, my generation are Like, I can't even think about a house right now. Like, it's not even a consideration because of just how much money I would need to even get a. Kind of a shitty house.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know how people do it. It's crazy.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like I can't qualify for the loan for my house. Like, because. Loan. Because loaning money is based off of credit. Well, I have a good credit, but they base it off of your income.

[Ben]

Oh, yes.

[Aaron]

Right. Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I want to see the money coming in.

[Ben]

It's such a joke.

[Aaron]

It's so weird. Like, I literally couldn't. I had to qualify based off of my buildway earnings for my loan for the house that we want to buy, which only covered a third of the cost of the house we wanted to.

[Ben]

Can't you do conditional approval though?

[Chris]

I don't know.

[Ben]

I feel like you can. I feel like Dave Ramsey's talked about that.

[Chris]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Ben]

Because my credit, I don't really have credit.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I have credit and it's good credit. Like my credit score is good.

[Chris]

Really.

[Aaron]

But they just, they wanted to base it off my income and they want to do an income to, you know, debt to income ratio.

[Ben]

And my mom, she was just able to refinance because she now she hasn't had a salary.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

In years. She's always done hourly work as a paralegal and now she's salary. Which then. Oh, the bank.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It makes the bank happier. Which I also thought was. I don't even think about this stuff.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Because I've just been renting for 12 years of my life now. It's probably a house worth of rent I've paid. Maybe not even in this market.

[Aaron]

Maybe if you could have stayed in the same house. That's the problem is people don't stay in the same house. And no. The whole front of the loan is. Is interest.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So like the first seven years, it's like, like more than 75 of what you're paying is interest.

[Ben]

It's crazy. It's. But I do see like average wages. Talked about average salaries in the trades. And it's always like you can on average, like you can make $55,000 a year usually. It's usually like between 50 and 60. And I'm like, that's not that great. Yeah, that's really not. I mean, a lot of people I know, they're not that low. Like, I don't know where those numbers are coming from, the averages. I see.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, no offense to the Southeast. But they have to be skewing that because the Southeast is in the Southeast for construction are quite low.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And it's the market.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

But like where we're going, Louisiana, Mississippi.

[Aaron]

Alabama, housing is a lot cheaper. So like they can probably get away with it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Where you get West Coast, Northeast, like you can't pay the wages like that at all.

[Ben]

Well, but then. And you even look at, I mean just the difference between like in Texas it'll be $20 an hour, in Chicago it'll be 65. Because of the union. Just the, in the work's no different.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Still building a road, you're still piping the ground.

[Aaron]

When the, when the unions say their wage, is that, is that what they actually make?

[Ben]

That there's a game there.

[Aaron]

There's a game, right.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But because they have to pay their home, because they have to pay their union dues and that's, that's a fair amount of money. But they get a pension and like 75% of that.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So it's still a lot of money. They're still making a lot.

[Ben]

A pension that hopefully works.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

Which what I believe in a pension over a 401k.

[Chris]

I don't.

[Aaron]

I think, I think in today, right now, I think I would say they both have a fair shot.

[Ben]

A fair. Yeah. But I now that I. The more I learn about the market, the more I like don't believe in 401ks even some saying.

[Aaron]

I think they both have a fair share.

[Ben]

It's such a, it's all such a ruse. But if you have a good union and a good pension, I'd be very pro pension.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think if you have a good 401k, I'd be pro. 401k.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The problem is, you know, sometimes people don't people put their money in funds that tout these great returns when they probably could just be in an index and have low cost structure and.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

But even in index you're, you're investing in like S P500 for example. The whole system is gamed like the whole system is rigged in favor of these big companies.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And it just like it's put us on this economic path that clearly prioritizes only these companies while crushing everybody else. I don't know how to articulate it all that well, but it's like, like how much pull on the market Nvidia has right now.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Nvidia, Tesla, Apple, Facebook.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For sure.

[Ben]

Google.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

There's five or ten companies who can skew the market in a significant way.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But I think that's where you're just getting a diversified index is good. It's like you can put money in s and P500, but you could put it in Dow Jones or you could put in other.

[Ben]

There's other indexes that represent maybe the.

[Aaron]

Economy in a better way. The s and P500, you have to be careful because it's the 500 largest and yeah, the top 10 can really move that index a lot.

[Ben]

Yeah. The more I. There's a crazy podcast I listened to recently on about the guy that Nikola, the truck company.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

That went bust and what he was doing.

[Ben]

Well, it was him.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Explaining.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Ben]

What had happened to him from his perspective, because he hasn't been able to talk about it because there's been a lawsuit for like four or five years or whatever and there still is a lawsuit. So there was some stuff he couldn't say, but he was like, this is the first time I've been able to. I've been allowed to just lay everything out. Wild.

[Aaron]

Listen to it.

[Ben]

Wild. And now there's this multi billion dollar lawsuit going back from his direction back to the people that supposedly screwed him over. But it was. It was. He said it was largely driven by the short sellers.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Working with the Department of Justice to then intentionally destroy the stock for them to make money because they were short.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

I just. I know a lot of the cat dealers were involved in that one.

[Aaron]

They had invested in a big way.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know, but I could see them because there was. There they had a trucking product that was promising.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. That was. Their whole thing was hydrogen, like heavy haul trucks. So I knew. I know, like Caterpillar went pretty big into that. The dealers, I think. I don't know what corporate did, but I know they were heavily invested. Yeah, yeah. The Caterpillar trucking thing, those knock on very well.

[Aaron]

I mean, it's been gone for quite a while now.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

They kind of. But it wasn't. It wasn't around all that long.

[Aaron]

No, no.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think. I think it's. Any business can learn from that. Find your specialty and sometimes stick with it, sometimes expand. I mean, the bonding companies talk about construction companies, and there's a few things that are like fatal causes for. For a, you know, construction company out of business. And one of them is geographic expansion. One is, I think, if I remember right, it's geographic expansion, it's new trades and it's rapid growth. Those are the three Things that bonding companies really worry about.

[Ben]

Well, and that's what like a herb sergeant's really worried about right now. I know I've talked to him about that. He's been quite vocal about that. All these companies that have blown up over the past 10 years, especially the past five years, like post Covid just exploded.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then what?

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. Because what? Well, I think it's fair. It's like an Olympic sprinter is different than an Olympic marathon runner. And sometimes when it comes to businesses to grow a business that can expand quickly is often much different than the business that can survive a downturn because you're playing a little bit of a different game. And a lot of these people don't have any experience. I mean, think about it. We haven't had a true. Now, in some markets there's been a localized. There was a localized downturn during a.

[Ben]

Few months of COVID Yeah, a few at most.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

There's been a few states other than really hard Washington.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So there's a few that had fuel full shutdowns. They were hit really badly. Most it was a few months of worry, but then pretty quickly started to get busy. So let's just throw those out for now. Economic recession ended for the most part. If you started in 2010, like you haven't seen anything but growth for 15 years. You don't know what it's like to go through a recession, like a real recession. So I think Herb's wise and worrying about that just because, you know, herbs generation went through multiple gener. Multiple recessions. You know, on average it was every seven years and they, they experienced it. They knew how to kind of survive through those. And yeah, I think it's a fair, it's a fair concern. You know, we have a whole generation of business owners who haven't been through recessions and do they obtain the skills to survive them?

[Ben]

Well, in the growth even over the past two years, like driven mostly by data centers and advanced manufacturing like five years ago or when you. When you still had one.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like someone telling you, oh yeah, yeah, this Taiwanese company is going to come in and spend $150 billion just off the 303.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So what's crazy?

[Chris]

So.

[Aaron]

No, no, no. So what's crazy about that is I actually told our guys we bid that project and it was. The site package was over a hundred million dollars and I had never bid a hundred million dollar job for a commercial site package ever. And I'm like, that's never going to happen again. And then sure, Enough. There was a data center we got a few months later and it ended up over $100 million. That's like I was in the industry for like 20 years and never saw $100 million site package. And then it, it was like multiple in the state of Arizona within a, a couple year period. And a lot of those site packages that used to be, you know, five to $10 million, which was a really good site package in Arizona because we don't have huge hills, we don't have to move a ton of dirt. So for like a commercial site, a five to $10 million project was a good project. Like they're $20 million now all the time.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's like how do you.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

How do you, how do you normalize that? How do you survive if. If at some point they get enough data centers, you know that I got to think the technology that goes within the data centers at some point will get more and more efficient because we've seen that with phones and, and computers, like will they always need more buildings or at some point will they start going back to the previous buildings and switching out equipment?

[Ben]

Well, and a lot of them are being built on spec now too.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like I've seen some where they, they just build the pad. So they're going out, putting the money out for the site, site work site package, like roughly canvas. And then they're just waiting for someone to hand them a 10, 15 billion dollar check. Here's what we want.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Or I've seen them. They're building the boxes like they did with warehouses.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

We'll build the box. What do you want to put inside it?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So they're building these data center boxes.

[Chris]

Yeah. Without.

[Ben]

And some of them are even like.

[Aaron]

Leave the floor out.

[Ben]

Well, but some of them are even like the technology that's going to go inside this doesn't exist yet.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So we don't want to put anything in it yet. We actually want to kick the can down the road to wait for whatever's coming.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For the new chip or whatever.

[Ben]

Like what?

[Chris]

Yeah, what? Yeah.

[Aaron]

But it's also like there's a dramatic shift because of AI and so like I get that too. It's like things change substantially because of E commerce.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that, that shifted the economy and shifted infrastructure like for the foreseeable future.

[Ben]

Well, we've been on, we've been on this like since 2020. This super cycle that was E Commerce exploding. The biggest inner migration change in modern U.S. history.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Which then required just this like whole New residential boom that hadn't existed before. And then you had advanced manufacturing driven by government spend with the automotive plants primarily, and then the chip plants. And then now you have the whole AI data center thing, which is even like. And with each one, I was like, all right, there's not going to be bigger site packages than these enormous Amazon distribution centers and these, These enormous subdivisions. And then you go to the advanced manufacturing and you're like, all right, there's not going to be anything crazier than this. And then not just a few years later, the AI stuff is like, it's wild. How does this pencil. This is crazy. And then. I don't know. I must. I. I don't know. There's people smarter than me figuring this out, but it's like, we're not building power plants.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's. So that's why I've actually. I don't remember who it was. Maybe a Harvard or Stanford professor. I hate saying this when I can't remember, but he basically said AI and, you know, true. He used some term like true artificial intelligence or super intelligence. I can't remember. It will not be able to happen or it'll be limited by the amount of power we have. Yes. Power will be the limiting factor.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Aaron]

In this.

[Ben]

Yeah. Like, we're not. We're not really bringing on any new power capacity right now at all across the whole United States. I mean, there's wind projects, solar projects, or there might be like a gas turbine project here or there, but largely.

[Aaron]

They'Re to replacing coal plants that are being shut down.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah, they're replacing, but. But they're, they're delaying mothballing some of these coal plants now because they just don't have the power generation. And then nuclear, like, you go look at Vogel in South Carolina or maybe Georgia Southeast, like one of the. The greatest modern infrastructure failures in U.S. history. Just a complete disaster in every. By every metric. So we can't do that.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So it's like, what is it going to be?

[Aaron]

Well, I think that's where the, you know, micro plants is coming into effect. Both. Not just nuclear, but I think. Yeah. I think they've even had some gas turbines that are actually going at the data centers. Yep. Where they can bring gas in and potentially generate their own power.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So, yeah, it's wild things.

[Ben]

I don't. I don't get it. But it's. I mean, it's. It's. I talked to a contractor today. He's like, yeah, three years ago we had 200 people, now we have 800. And I, I, he, he said it before it was going to come out of my, my mouth. I was like, you're working on data centers and. Sure, sure. Data centers. That's the only, only explanation. You don't. You're not building highways. No, you're not. And, and growing by four times in three years.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

It'll be interesting to see kind of how that all goes. And it's like, I'm a skeptic because I've experienced a housing boom.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I can know how crappy that sucks when the housing boom goes away. But I was also, like, I did alternative energy for a long time. Most of my career we did wind or solar. And I always thought, like, it's going to die. And it definitely had like, waves where it was better than others. But I mean, they're still doing large alternative energy projects. So.

[Ben]

Yeah, I just, I've been out to a few recently.

[Aaron]

So, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe data centers will continue at a pace that's pretty spectacular because there's just so much data that has to be consumed and processed to, like, usher in this new time.

[Ben]

It's interesting. The guy that I was listening to with the nuclear plants, he was like, he pointed out that China is building data centers like crazy. But they're also adding a crazy amount of power generation.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Crazy amount of power generation. They don't give a shit. They'll produce power, however, like nuclear, coal, gas, whatever you got, solar, wind, hydro, give it to us all. We're going full send. And it's like, that's where we should be, but we're not.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What happens?

[Aaron]

Like, it becomes a limiting factor even like, if you're for green technologies like electric vehicles. I know in the Phoenix Metro, there has been some, like, you know, large distribution companies, like, think, you know, people who are distributing household goods who are like, we're going to switch our fleet to electric. And they've gone to the power company and they're like, hey, we need to, you know, we want to take 25 trucks and go electric, and we need the infrastructure to charge them. And they're like, they like, look at the calculations. Like, you must made an error. What do you mean? Like, this is as much power as a small city needs.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, no, that's what it takes to, like, we don't have that much power. We can't give you that power.

[Ben]

No. In Arizona, Phoenix has the biggest nuclear plant in the United States.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it does, like 3 gigawatt hours a year or something. Like a crazy amount of. But that's another one. Like, that was designed to be nine turbines.

[Chris]

I know.

[Aaron]

They only built three of them.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And they're old and they're well past their design life.

[Chris]

They're.

[Aaron]

But they're. But they have been extremely productive and efficient for.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For whatever, 30 plus years or something. It's like.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Not only do we need to redo them, but like, why, if we have it dialed in there, why don't we build the six additional. Because Arizona could use the power. California sure as heck could use the power.

[Ben]

California good.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And there's already a lot of transmission that run out of that plant.

[Chris]

Yeah. So.

[Ben]

Well, I have to go to the airport soon, so we can't talk forever. Unfortunately. I don't know if we covered anything of value at all, but this would be our conversation otherwise.

[Chris]

So. Yeah.

[Ben]

Appreciate everybody tuning in and see you on the next one.