← Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Loading summary
Transcript318 lines
- [26:43]
A
Yeah, but like, my point is, who in their right mind would be like, yep, that's what it costs. Like, what are we doing?
- [26:52]
B
I mean, I don't know. I mean, I, I, from, from what little I know about the situation, it was a horrible situation. Very tragic because there were some, there were, there was construction. There were people working on the bridge at the time. Yeah. Of, you know, when the ship hit the bridge in Maryland and you know, several people died, which is, which is obviously awful. And then they basically had to figure out, all right, you know, what are we going to do? How do we, how do we try to solve this? Right. And I mean, if I were in that situation, Kiwa would definitely be one of the people that I would want to talk to. I mean, just because I've seen what type of work they're capable of doing and I've seen like how fast that they're, how fast they're able to move. And I think they're like one of the foremost with at top tier, like alternative delivery method and just general like highway contractors in the United States. And I mean we were in Louisiana when, you know, when, when Hurricane Katrina happened and they came down and built some of these pump stations down there that were just these, I mean it was, it was incredible to see the amount of progress that they made in like a really short amount of time. And these were like, these were like $800 million jobs. And they would just like rip them off in like three years and you'd be like, I mean, when I say, I mean they would build them in three years, start to finish. And it was just amazing to watch that amount of progress.
- [28:12]
A
Sure.
- [28:12]
B
I've never seen anything like it. Yeah. So lots of respect there. But the, there, these, these alternative. You know, I'm, I'm actually, I've actually become more of a fan of these alternative, some of these alternative delivery methods. And when there's competition and you let contractors like come up with the best, most cost effective way to do something and there are other teams that are compet. I think that actually brings out the best in people and trying to figure out like, what's the best way to get this thing done as quickly as possible. But some of the other alternative delivery methods are basically like we're gonna, you know, pick the person that we want based on like their qualifications and then, and then we'll work through the job together. And I, that, that makes me pause a little bit if there's not, you know, like a competitive, if there's not other competitors that that are in the mix. And that can be, you can compare right there. This is what our number is versus what their number is, which is how most highway design build stuff works. But the problem, I think with the Maryland thing, from what I read in the article, the thing that scared the crap out of me was, well, it's good that the DOT has a way to get out of something. I think that's good. There's a way to escape for both parties, I'm sure. And we can get into Maryland's history with the purple line too, as well, which is another complete freaking boondoggle. But aside from that, they didn't agree on the cost based on, like, the conceptual design that the team had come up with yet. And now they're, they're kicking the contractor off. The next contractor that comes in is going to be stuck with that design. So how much better realistically? Like, how much better could the price realistically be?
- [30:08]
A
I, but I don't know if they even got that far. I think they were just like, whatever it was, it was somewhere between 5 and 9 billion dollars. I think they just got that. That's a lot of invoice. And they're like,
- [30:24]
B
doesn't exist.
- [30:27]
A
I think that's all that happened was like, I don't even know if they know what's step two step, you know, plan B. I don't know. I don't know if there is a plan B. I think it was just like, oh, engineers estimate was 1.8 billion and now we're creeping up on 9 billion today. And that's, we haven't even started construction yet. And we've already completed one of the most expensive demolition projects ever. We've already completed one of the most expensive salvage projects ever. Already in, like, way deep on just cleaning the damn thing up, let alone and then, and then that's not all this. That's, that, that's nothing to say. All the people that use that would be using that bridge every day, they're just fucked for like, yeah, how long?
- [31:17]
B
TBD at this point?
- [31:18]
A
No. No one has any clue. Yeah, no one has any clue.
- [31:21]
B
TBD at this point. So it's a tough situation. I lived in Maryland actually for the first, like, first five years or, you know, four and a half years out of college. So, yeah, built some work there. It's a great place. Just, I love tough situation.
- [31:35]
A
Maryland's a great place. Baltimore.
- [31:38]
B
I lived in Baltimore, yo. I mean, I, I, the Wire is one of the best TV shows, probably the best TV show ever made. I'd put in the top. Top three, for sure.
- [31:46]
A
I still haven't seen it yet.
- [31:47]
B
Oh, it's fantastic. You'll love it. I mean, it's great because it's like, it's about kind of the, you know, American cities and all of the, you know, issues that come. Come along with it. Yeah. So anyways. But. But you. So, so you asked me a question about, like, what am I seeing? You know, I'm. Part of what I do, like, when I go out on these trips is like, I spend time with our users and I sit down with, like, estimators who are bidding, who are estimating and like, bidding this work. Right. So estimating and bidding, like, heavy highway asphalt site development. Civil, basically civil construction work. And part of what. Part of what I think I've. We've. We've done and I try to bring my team, you know, for them to be a part of it too, is outside of, like, our product is just to sit and watch people work. Because, like, that's how you just. We learn so much by doing that. So that's most of what I do when I'm on the road. Like, you know, we'll launch, we'll do trainings and things like that. But then when I'm there, I'm like, hey, can we just, like, can you take me through? Like, what is this? What does it look like for you to estimate a job? Like, start from. Start from the beginning and take me all the way through.
- [32:57]
A
And that.
- [32:58]
B
That one, it shows me a lot of different things. It helps, like, inform, like, where is most of the pain at where, you know, with how people are, like, doing this work? And then how much of this can we take away so that that person can be, like, spending time on the stuff that, like, really matters, that helps them build the job better, build the job faster, hopefully win the job. And so that's where I like to spend a lot of my time is literally sitting down with the users and just like, kind of pulling up a chair and just asking questions and watching.
- [33:28]
A
It was. I enjoyed, like, we spent time together, me, you, and our mutual friend Dick. And you explained the estimating process? Yes, to him.
- [33:37]
B
It was awesome.
- [33:38]
A
And it was. But it was, it was funny, like, listening to you explain the estimating process to somebody that hasn't been involved in it before and how oftentimes jacked up it is.
- [33:50]
B
He's like, what?
- [33:53]
A
Just how.
- [33:54]
B
Just how many you and I take it for granted? Because we're like, yeah, that's just how. That's how we do it.
- [34:00]
A
But to explain it to somebody on the outside like that. Yeah, this is how we feel. Like trillions of work.
- [34:06]
B
He's like, so you work up the bid and then you go throw it into this other system. I'm like, did I get that right? And we're like, yeah.
- [34:13]
A
He's like, and then you go call people and get their quotes and then
- [34:18]
B
you go hand enter it all. You hand enter it. He's like, you sure? You hand enter. I'm like, I'm sure.
- [34:23]
A
Yes.
- [34:24]
B
I love that. And then you hear it coming out of your mouth and you're like, I know this probably sounds kind of weird to you. And as I'm saying it, you know, I appreciate the fact that it's not, but it's how we were taught, you know, and, and I think there, there's a lot of that in this industry. And it's, you know, most of it, it's, it's just because maybe we don't. There hasn't been a better way and there hasn't been like, you know, better solutions to solve the problem.
- [34:51]
A
And you're working at the speed of the federal government, the state government, the municipalities. Like, I think a lot of that has something to do with it. Enthralling improvement in progress. Because the government, as we've started to find out, is not the most progressive organization ever on planet Earth. And I think, I mean, there's a lot of opportunities, but you're still working within a government system. At the end of the day, when you're bidding.work, if that makes sense.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say.
- [35:24]
A
So it's still a government framework.
- [35:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. You're, you're, there's, you're, you're, there's some, there's some ham contractors are a bit hamstrung, I would say, you know, based, I mean, they work based on the information that's been provided to them. On the government side, there's no like, terms and conditions you don't attach with your bid. Like, here's the 15 things that I excluded, like hauling this off of the site, or you know, I don't accept the site as unclassified or I'm not cutting lime or whatever. On public work, you don't do that. Like, you accept it as it is. If you ask a question pre bid to get clarification, that becomes a part of the contract. Every, most cases everybody gets to see your questions, but basically it's kind of like take it or leave it. And you know, so in some cases what the best contractors do and what I've actually witnessed some of our clients do is like, part of their job is basically finding problems in the bid package. That's kind of actually like job number one for a lot of these estimators is they're literally having to go through and see, like, did they get this right or, like, the specs, or is this the most. Is this the latest version of the spec? Do the notes that they've told us make sense? Is there something that's completely, like, void and missing on this bid? Is there enough detail for me and all of my competitors to accurately price this work?
- [36:46]
A
Sure.
- [36:46]
B
Does the bid form make sense? Does everything add up that they say it adds up? And so a lot of time does get spent on basically going through and making sure that it's right. And it's a good thing. You know, it makes, it's, it's for the tax, it's for the taxpayer's benefit. And I've seen even situations where a contractor's like, here's how you set up the spid package. Here's the best way to set up the spid package. Literally, like giving it to them in a nice outlined email, you know, and I wish agents, all agencies, were so lucky to have that.
- [37:19]
A
Yeah. Because it varies quite a bit state to state.
- [37:22]
B
Absolutely. Well, state to state, county to county, city to city. I mean, it's, it's airport to airport. Yeah. Everything. It's, it's very, very, very different.
- [37:31]
A
It's. I, I hate estimating. I, I worked in an estimating office for two years while I was in college, and I did not enjoy a single moment of it.
- [37:42]
B
I'm so sorry to hear that.
- [37:43]
A
It just, it's not my thing. And I, I, I struggled with work. Work, work, work, work. We're second. Throw it away. Get the next one like that. To me, I like progress, and I wasn't feeling like I was making progress, which there are certain people that are built for it. I wasn't one of those people. I was doing takeoffs, too. So I wasn't even putting the estimates together to your point of making sure just the numbers are correct, which, yeah, I did. But I've heard through a lot of people that plans are only getting worse. Would you.
- [38:26]
B
Plans are only getting worse. I don't know that that matches what I've heard.
- [38:35]
A
I would say that maybe it's more private as well.
- [38:37]
B
Well, the private world's different, man. Because, like, I mean, we've got a lot of clients who do private work, too. And private work. You basically like, especially on somebody who does data center work, for instance. Right. You know, you're under NDA, they call it NDA work. You can't, you know, share any information with anybody. But basically they'll get like a literally like a 30% conceptual set of plans and just like, you know, a few notes. Right. No details, no depths, no, no, you know, no reinforcing, no. Like, hey, the inverts here, the inverts there, like, they basically have to price based on like, very limited information. And then they get the 50% plans and then they get, you know, they have to reprice it and then they get 75% plans and then they want to like lock their price in, you know, at that point. And there's still insufficient information, so they have to clarify it. So like on those jobs, you're bidding the job like eight times, like, maybe even more. I mean, even before the owner has plans, maybe they're like, hey, how much would it cost in this area to clear a site and prep it for, you know, a building pad or whatever? Right.
- [39:37]
A
Yeah.
- [39:37]
B
So there's a shit ton of work, you know, that, that goes in on that side that I could see why people would be like, we're only getting more incomplete versions of the plans. But part of that is if you're a private site where contractors, you know, like, you're building that relationship. So they need somebody to come to for like, you know, budget budgets just to kind of understand and feedback. Right. Like, does what we're, you know, designing make sense? Right. Does it make sense for us to sequence the site in this way? You know, is this going to be the way that the, you know, water is going to flow or whatever? So, so, yeah, so. So that's part of it. But I think on, on the government side, like, it's pretty cut and dry. Like by the time contractors get plans for a, for a regular, like, bid build job, it's pretty, it's. It's pretty buttoned up and should be, should be pretty close.
- [40:28]
A
Yeah.
- [40:28]
B
To where it needs to be.
- [40:30]
A
Yeah, I'd be interested to actually, like, try to quantify that. Cause I just know, like, one of the challenges is engineering in general. Engineering has the same workforce issues that construction has. Like, that's where the college. No college thing. I think it's increasingly like the dumbest conversation that anybody could have.
- [40:52]
B
Well, let's have it. I mean. Well, I mean, I don't want to have a dumb conversation, but I do want to hear your thoughts on this. What are you saying college versus no college? What do you mean?
- [41:00]
A
Anywhere you're choosing a team. It's a trap, I think. Like, I don't College no call. I don't care if people go to college or not. Just come into construction.
- [41:11]
B
Oh, I totally agree. That's my point.
- [41:13]
A
I don't care. Honestly, like, I went to college, it was good for me. I would do it again.
- [41:16]
B
So did I. But I studied European history and has. Absolutely. But I worked in the summertimes on a paving crew, so. And. But I have seen some of the biggest, best estimators that we work with. Some of them are PEs and, you know, civil engineers. Some of them worked on a crew for like, you know, three, four, five years.
- [41:36]
A
Yeah.
- [41:37]
B
And then they're like an opportunity came up in the estimating department and they're like, yeah, that sounds awesome, man. I'd love, like, I'm really interested in like, technical work. I like doing deep work. I want to. Like, that seems really cool. I'd rather be in the office maybe than working out, you know, in the field. And they get that opportunity. And. And those are some of the absolute best people. Some of them haven't, didn't get the opportunity to go to college, but they've been in the field. They've seen the work. They understand what it's like to work on a crew. They've observed and kind of been around like a job environment and have a rough idea of, you know, productions and kind of some of the restrictions and the shit that you got to deal with when you're working on a job site. And then you pair that with, like, really good training from, you know, on the technical side of things. Like, okay, this is how you do takeoffs. This is how you read a spec, you know, this is how you quantify things. This is how you put together the bid. This is how you send an email. This is a hand enter subcontractor quotes. I mean, people are using the tools that they got, man.
- [42:37]
A
No, which. That I'm all for. I just think you have to go to be in engineering. You have to go to school. There's a legal requirement to be a professional engineer.
- [42:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [42:47]
A
And within engineering, there's been a ton of consolidation with the big firms buying more and more small firms, the big firms getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and being able to pay a lot more money than government agencies.
- [43:01]
B
Oh, this is such a problem.
- [43:02]
A
Way more money. And so you might go work for a TDOT or a Georgia DOT or South Carolina dot Whatever, for like a few years out of school. And then one of these big firms comes around with a big old pay package and it's like, well, later, this
- [43:19]
B
is a big problem that you're mentioning. This happens. Well, what, what's more common from what, from what I've seen or just maybe in the folks that I worked with, because I saw this, you know, in Baltimore, I saw when I was working in Maryland and also saw it, you know, when I was working in Louisiana was the civil engineer get out of school. You know, they're well, EIT or whatever, you know, engineering training. And eventually, you know, they become a PE and then they may work at the agency for like 20 years or so. They get their full, you know, pension and then they roll off and go to the private, you know, agency and, you know, go work for one of the big engineering firms, double your salary overnight. But, but, but, but, but, yeah, or more. Or more, you know, but, but like, we really, like, we really need awesome engineers working for our government. And in other countries it's a big deal to work for a government agency and be, you know, to be an engineer.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah.
- [44:21]
B
And I think you can only third party so much of it, in my opinion. And I think a lot of states have had to do this because they're not able to keep up with the wages that the private companies are paying. So what do they do in turn? They're like, all right, we'll just basically subcontract or give the engineering to a third party engineering firm. But, you know, there's something about having the person who's like, directly responsible, involved and have their name like, affiliated with the engine, with the true owner of the job, which is the government, which is the taxpayer. Yeah. And I just don't, I don't see an existing, like, solution right now with the exact problem that you're talking about, which is they're just, there's not a lot of people. There's not enough people to, you know, design and manage all of the work for these governments directly. So they're basically having to use this other route of going third party.
- [45:29]
A
I just. And I think that goes to something bigger too. I think that it's like even in construction, I feel like we've almost forgotten that we're doing this for the taxpayer. Like, this is in service to the family that's taking their kids to school every day. Yeah. And I think that's what like some, even with contractors, the entitlement that they have with their projects. And it's like it's not your project. You are building it for the people. Like, even that, I feel like, has just kind of become forgotten about it. I see it very much in our government. Like, does our government represent the people right now? Not at all. And I think that boils down to kind of the whole country now. But I feel like, as an industry, we've forgotten why we're doing this in the first place.
- [46:27]
B
I mean, to me, I've always felt that, like, direct connection, I guess. I don't know. I mean, probably because I grew up around it.
- [46:33]
A
Yeah.
- [46:33]
B
But it's like.
- [46:34]
A
Which is a unique perspective.
- [46:35]
B
Yeah, it's like, it's a. It's a direct representation, you know, and, you know, I can. It's. It's hard, though. I mean, when you're. When you're working on a job and, you know, you hold up traffic and everybody flicks you off and, you know, they throw trash at you. And, I mean, I've, like, nearly hit crazy stuff, man. Or, you know, drunk drivers come through your work zone. So, I mean, I think it's. It's a. It's a. It's challenging, but. But I think almost all of these. What's cool about in any type of construction, but especially road construction, is that you can always drive back through the job and say, we built that. And when I go visit a city like where I used to live and there's a job that we built, I will get a rental car and just drive out to that job. I. I can't explain why I do this, but I do.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah.
- [47:33]
B
And, you know, you, like, take pride in a job, in a job well done. And it matters, you know, because it's like, people are using it every single day, I think.
- [47:43]
A
And there's. There's tons of people like that. Like, we know a lot of them. But I just mean, like, as an industry as a whole, I don't think we've done a very good job, like, focused on the service component of what we do. Like, I think. And this is, again, just big picture. It's like we're coming off of generations of, what do I get? What's in it for me? Like, even entitlements, the name entitlements. Like, does no one see that? Like, wait, so you're entitled to all this stuff that's making everything for us harder and harder and harder and harder? Like, wait a minute, what about. Like, what about making the community as a whole better? Like, what about serving others, serving those around us? And I think construction has such a direct tie Like, I think the US Almost has to come back to this concept of like serving others. And I think construction. We do serve others, but I think like, I don't think we, I don't think we, we, we, we express that to its, to the state that we should. I'm not verbalizing this very well. I just think there's a bigger picture that we're, that we're missing right now. I think that like the military does, they do.
- [49:15]
B
Yeah.
- [49:15]
A
Serve your country. Like, thank you for your service. Which. Yeah, we should thank them for their service. Firefighters, thank you. Police officers, thank you. Paramedics, doctors even like why aren't we.
- [49:27]
B
I would put the people who build our highways and roads in that exact same category up on that. You know, I mean we were, you know, it's essential, right? We were deemed essential.
- [49:43]
A
Well, you, you, you and I would during COVID but like would, would an everyday mom 100% no.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah, well, you know, I, I, I, I think, I think they should and, and I think that it's something that we, we as an industry can, can do a lot better job of communicating like, and making it about that, making it about the mission, making it about the country, making it about how do we basically build out our infrastructure in a way to where it's the absolute best in the entire world. Like the United States should not be, should not have highways and roads and bridges that are, that are not as, that, that are, I would say deficient compared to some other countries. Even though we're a massive, of course we have massive land mass, we have all these lane miles. It's a lot to make maintain. But it's unacceptable to me that, that we don't have like top tier infrastructure in this country. And you know, removing like having to sit in traffic and all these big cities, like, we've, we've got a lot, we've got a lot of work to do, you know, and, and it's, it's not all on the contractors. But, but I think what, what has got me so excited, what has got me so pumped up and you know, it's part of the reason why I sent you that, that essay that, that, that I, you know, that I co authored with, with Pat Nelson is there's an opportunity for us to like really drive, in my opinion, drive down the costs. Like what does it cost to actually go get something built for the first time in a long time? And that's what makes me so excited because when the cost goes down it means more, more stuff is going to get built so when a job that used to cost maybe 10 years ago is 15 million, imagine if you could go build that same job for $10 million today. Because we're more efficient, right? Because we have a different approach. There's some things that you can't overcome with physics, but there are other things that you can. And that means that we can go do more work. That means we can do 50% more work. And not just on highway work, but all other types of work too. I mean like site development or you know, other, you know, data centers, whatever. Like if there's more of it and the cost goes down, then it's going to create incredible opportunity for our country. And that's to me is getting the cost down. That's the first step.
- [52:23]
A
Yes, that's the really optimistic perspective.
- [52:27]
B
It is.
- [52:28]
A
But you also have a lot of very consolidated forces that just want to extract more and more and more of that to increase shareholder value.
- [52:39]
B
How do you mean? Well,
- [52:43]
A
I need to increase the value of my materials company.
- [52:46]
B
Okay.
- [52:47]
A
We have this dividend. We want to go hike the dividend. Like there's for, I think for a contractor, it's, it is really exciting. I think increasing productivity has to happen. And I think the first place for that money is within wages because wages, that is an industry are way too low. Like to have a family working in road construction in the south and the south on a single income, the Southeast is good fucking luck. Good luck. It doesn't, doesn't math like the dollars, it's just not there. Like if I'm 23, sure, maybe 23 bucks an hour is fine. But like to have a family, to have a house, to have a life, it's just not there. And so that's where like that's one of the biggest opportunities that I see is like if we make more money, we can then develop a workforce more effectively, invest in better people and get more money into the middle class, which has become increasingly non existent and do more work, be more competitive. I think that's part of it. But I think there's also these big forces exerting themselves on the industry through the consolidation we've seen over the past 10, 20 years that are, and it's no fault of, I'm not blaming individual corporations, but it's, we've got to increase shareholder value. And that shareholder value is not making the United States better in a lot of ways. Like it's, it's, it's, it's extracting that value. So it takes, it creates the value, takes it out and it doesn't come back. It doesn't benefit my neighborhood. It doesn't benefit Tennessee. It benefits shareholders. I don't even know who the fuck shareholders are. Somewhere.
- [54:45]
B
Yeah. So I think there's a few different things at play here. And I mean, you see this in other industries as well. Like, it's not specific to, you know, construction.
- [54:55]
A
It's way worse than other industries or
- [54:57]
B
construction materials, per se.
- [54:58]
A
Yeah, it's way worse.
- [55:00]
B
There are definitely some other areas, I think, where this takes place. And I think in those situations, you see that there's. I mean, it's a common concept, regulatory capture, where people have basically. And like I said, you see this in other industries where they've basically gone and said, we're going to basically almost make it impossible for other people to get into the game. And that's kind of the way that we want it. And then it's also really hard to do business, you know, and that is all part of the. Part of the game plan and part of the master kind of scheme, like
- [55:41]
A
Tristan's Asphalt Plant, llc. You want to go start Tristan's Asphalt with a plant.
- [55:48]
B
Depends on where you want to put it up. It's highly, you know, like. Well, depends on what. Depends on where, you know. I mean, because there's. Because there's. There are forces out there. You've got the environmental stuff. That's. That's one play.
- [56:03]
A
Yeah.
- [56:04]
B
You know, you've got. You've got nimby, you know, not in my backyard.
- [56:08]
A
Yeah.
- [56:09]
B
You know, nimbyism is a really big deal, especially here in, you know, just in the States where people don't want to see, you know, new facilities being being constructed. And then it just takes years to get something, you know, permitted and get something put up. And part of it, too, is, like, it wasn't that way 50 years ago. So if something was built a long time ago, depending on the geography, you have a massive advantage. And it just takes so long for somebody to actually, like, compete and. Yeah, and that, of course, like, drives the price up of things. And where does that. To your point, where does that get passed? That gets passed on to the end user, you know, is the person who ends up, you know, paying the cost. And I'm a capitalist. I believe in making money. My friend Jay Winford with, you know, Prairie. Prairie Construction down in Louisiana, he's got a great phrase that. That I love. And it's, you know, a decent profit made decently, you know, and I'm all for that. I really am. But we've Got to figure out a way to get, get there. Can we can still make a decent profit decently and figure out a way to get the cost of construction down in this country.
- [57:44]
A
Yeah, and, and I just like, I'm 100 for profit in construction. There's a lot of profit in construction. I just think like, and it's big picture, but why are the people building stuff not living great lives financially? Like, shouldn't they be the ones that are getting ahead?
- [58:09]
B
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I grew up, I grew up in a road construction company in the Southeast, so I'm going to take exception to that. I don't know that that's universal. I know that in our, you know, in, in our market, I can think of some pretty cool stories. Honestly, I can think of, I can think of a lady who worked as a, who worked as a flag person who, you know, spent her career 30 plus years, eventually was a service truck driver, you know, had great benefits, worked really hard and was able to put, you know, two kids through med school. Now there was, there were some scholarships and, and, you know, and things with that. But, but you know, that happened on the, the wages of, you know, somebody working in road construction in, in, in the Southeast. Now those wages were not, you know, Davis Bacon wages. They were higher, no question, you know, than, than what people were required, you know, to pay. But that's kind of how, you know, our, that's how, that's how we were set up was to pay above the, you know, the, the market and make it to where somebody can provide for, you know, a family with, you know, one kind of main, you know, income provider. Yeah, I don't, I can't speak outside of that because I, but, because I don't, I don't know what it was like, you know, in, in other regions. But, you know, that's kind of what I, you know, what, what I witnessed. And not to say that we were perfect, man. I mean, because there were times where, you know, we, it, you know, when it rains a lot, what do you do? You know, it's like, I mean, if it rains five days in a row, you know, the people are, they're hurting and, and we're, we're subject to this outside, you know, reality. And part of what, what happened with us was, I think this may have been actually post, I think it was post acquisition was they had a bunch of exit interviews with some of the people who worked on the crew, you know, like, why are you leaving? And they were leaving the industry and they were like what's going on?
- [60:28]
A
He's like, I just.
- [60:29]
B
Basically the feedback that was consistent was like, I just don't know. I can't rely. I don't know how big my paycheck is going to be because of the rain. And it would happen to some of our best crews because they were the ones that were working out on the interstate doing OGFC and sma, like the high profile stuff and if it's, if there's a threat to rain, you're not going to run up $100,000 worth of material only to have to go, you know, basically eat it tomorrow. So it's finicky. And they were not getting the hours that some of the other crews were getting, even though they were our best crews. And they're like, this is not fair. I mean they were right. It wasn't fair. So you know, there was a. Basically a guaranteed number of hours per week was given, you know, to, to, to and people the day that they, you know, the day that they signed up. Which alleviated, you know, a lot of, of those concerns about all this, you know, variability.
- [61:21]
A
Yeah. Which I think is a great way to do it. But you have to have the business to accommodate that. You have to have the margins to accommodate that.
- [61:30]
B
Agreed. Like you have to be, you have to make money.
- [61:33]
A
You have to make the money to do it. Like I, and I think there's like a, yeah, there's, there's a bunch of problems, but that, that's one like you're competing in Louisiana with like chemical plants.
- [61:44]
B
True.
- [61:45]
A
They need people, they need a lot of people. They pay good money. They do, they, it's consistent hours. Like, I think that's where we get caught up as an industry too is we're get, we're competing with so many other worlds now.
- [61:59]
B
Yeah.
- [61:59]
A
And, and, and I just put myself in other people's shoes. Like, I don't know, I mean making $100,000 when I was like, when I was in school, 100 grand was a lot of money. Right now it's fine. But again, if I wanted to buy a house and If I wanted three kids with $100,000 single income, it's going to be snug. It's going to be really snug.
- [62:31]
B
Yeah. I mean it's gotta, look, it's gotta be, it's gotta be a career, you know, it can't be, can't be just a side, a side gig.
- [62:39]
A
It's.
- [62:39]
B
This is, this is the full time
- [62:41]
A
and that's where, but that, that's why I'm going back to the opportunities. Like, that's what I'm excited about is the opportunity that is making things a lot more efficient so that we can make it a career. Because right now it's very dependent upon region if it is a career.
- [62:58]
B
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that was kind of, you'd mentioned Dick and I thought was great about the episode that you guys had with him was what he was seeing with his, you know, with his work about, you know, they've got the, the autonomous machinery and blue light and all that. But like, he was basically, you know, saying that the, the, the, the operators who can run the autonomous stuff and run multiple machines are making more. Yeah. Are making higher wages. Right. Than, than, than those who aren't. So I think there's, I think there is going to be, you know, opportunity even as, like more of this stuff gets automated for those people to be more like conductors and, and like coaches and, and to be able to command the higher, the higher wages. And if, you know, I mean, if, if we don't, if we don't, we don't step up and pay, people in construction, like other industries will be happy to take them.
- [63:54]
A
And they have been.
- [63:55]
B
Costco. They have been. Yeah, you know, our customers.
- [64:00]
A
Yeah, the construction industry's customers. I've been the ones hiring them. Amazon and, and that's, that's the great irony of it. But yeah, that's, that's. I think the companies that are winning right now, they're all we need to increase efficiency, to raise margins so that we can do more, so that we can bid more aggressively and still make money, so that we can invest in the right equipment, in the right technology and invest in our people. I just don't think, like my whole argument, and I'm working through a new talk right now, is that construction hasn't developed a workforce. So we've been talking about workforce development. I think we kind of like walked into the workforce that we've built the country on so far because I think our economy was more geared towards that kind of work. But there have been a lot of changes in the world over the past few decades, like the, like college, like the availability of careers, like the change in birth rate. We've peaked at the millennials and has started to go down, the change in migration patterns. I didn't grow up working on the family car. You know, I didn't grow up around anybody blue collar. I didn't grow up around tools. I grew up in a neighborhood in suburbia. People moving from Farms to cities. There have been all of these different changes. The economy itself becoming kind of a pyramid scheme in a way, all built upon finances, like the financial industry, whatever that is and real estate, whatever that is. Pharmaceuticals, whatever that is. Tech, I can kind of point to it kind of. Not health care, which is another gigantic industry. There's all of these huge industries that have hoovered up basically all of the resources in the US and have kind of left us like what just happened. And we're trying to apply this same formula that is like, let's just go out and get shit done. Like let's just go build shit. But it doesn't, it doesn't work. And so we have to, I think develop a workforce. We have to draw people in that didn't grow up on a paving crew which requires, it requires time and spend that we haven't as an industry had to incur before. Yeah, like I don't think we've actually done workforce development until now. And I'm painting very broad brush. But I came up, I worked for five companies. I didn't get a single fucking minute of training anywhere. It was put your floaties on. And I mean maybe even no, I didn't get floaties. It's, we're just going to shove you into the deep end. Let's hope you don't get hurt. Like if I had a 500 person construction company right now, how do I know my people actually know what they're doing?
- [67:07]
B
Yeah, I mean a lot of really good qualified management and supervision would be probably a place that I would start.
- [67:13]
A
That'd be a great place to start. How do I know my people are qualified managers, leaders? Because that, that's also the irony is they came up under that previous generation. They're kind of like that bridge in between the two. So they were raised by that previous generation which is just shut the up and do your job. But now they're leading the up and coming generation which is like all about purpose, you know, has lots of options. Came up on a iPad, on a phone, whatever it is in suburbia. And they're caught in between. That's the, that's the worst place to be. They don't have the tools to lead this up and coming generation. And it just makes them more frustrated, it makes them feel like failures. It turns people over there are some of our best performers. They're getting burnt out. Oftentimes they're leaving, they're going somewhere else. Like I think that's what's going on here. Just don't Actually think we've developed people and developing people takes time and money because that's the environment we live in now. Like, coming up, your dad, he could make mistakes on a job site. He could screw things up.
- [68:26]
B
So could I.
- [68:27]
A
You could too. Right now, dude, you make a job, you make a mistake on a job site. Get the fuck out of here.
- [68:36]
B
Depending on where you're at.
- [68:37]
A
Yeah, but God forbid you don't hurt somebody. Yeah, but mistakes now, now. Oh, it's on the job. Yeah. Well, what, what is on the job? Like on the job worked when I could make mistakes. Now I can't make mistakes. Yeah, it doesn't work.
- [68:55]
B
It's. This is. I don't know if you talked about this with, with, with dan Garcia, with C.W. matthews, but. And obviously they're, you know, with the shining, like, thing of what you would ever. The way you would want everybody to be is. Yes. Is how they are.
- [69:10]
A
Absolutely.
- [69:10]
B
So, so.
- [69:11]
A
And, and I'm sorry we put you on a pedestal, Dan.
- [69:13]
B
I don't.
- [69:14]
A
You're not there.
- [69:14]
B
But, but, and, and I don't for one second, you know, like, think that this is like a universal thing. But, but, but what he talked about was, he talked about how hard it was to get like, because they're obviously doing this program with, you know, the high schoolers and, you know, they're coming into the workforce course. And, and you know, they were, he was, they were really selective about who they would put these 17 and 18 year old, you know, young people with. Right. Because you're not going to pick like your most ornery, you know, pissed off superintendent who's like, I, I ain't got time for this. You know, you want to, you want to put them in an environment with somebody who's, who's going to be, you know, a little bit more accommodating and willing to, willing to deal with some problems. Like, I mean, I remember, you know, like, okay, one of the kids flipped over an end dump, you know, on a highway job. Like, thankfully nobody was hurt, you know, but they were not. They made a mistake on a job site and they weren't crucified, you know, for, for screw, for, for screwing something up, you know. So I think innovation and like, doing stuff differently is messy and it's hard and it's different than the way that things have been done in, in the past. But I think it's like thinking outside the box and getting creative. That's the only, like, the only people that I've seen really like, quote unquote, solve some labor problems are the ones who are trying different approaches. Not, not the old. Like, we got people lined up out the door and we can just take the applications and, you know, if we don't like them and we're just gonna get. We'll just get rid of them, you know, like, and we're gonna yell at people and we're gonna demean them and, and we're not gonna treat them with, you know, a high level of like, respect and decency while still having, like, really extremely high standards. Because the best companies, and we're fortunate to work with quite a. Quite a few of them, like, they, they are, I would say, like, firm but fair. Right. So they have like, expectations, but also like, really high integrity. And they treat people right.
- [71:21]
A
Yeah.
- [71:21]
B
And if you can do that, like, you can, you can, you can build up the momentum and also, like, appreciate that. You know, we're like social. We're social creatures, man. Like, we, we had. I mean, when I worked on crews, like, two of the crews were guys and gals that all lived in the same neighborhood. And a bunch of them were related, brothers, sisters, cousins. Like, they. One of them started to work at the company and said, I like this place. They treat us pretty good. You know, it's probably hot, but the work's good, it's consistent, and, you know, it pays really well. And then more people started coming, you know, and then, and then they're all connected in this, like this connected tissue. And I mean, just. And. And then you see the multi generational families too. You know, the father worked in the business or, you know, and then the son has started to work in the business, and the brothers and the cousins. And so I think there's a lot of great. I've been around a lot of people like that, you know, in, in, in in my life. And I'm, you know, grateful for it. And I think there is, there is Hope, I guess, 100% is my view.
- [72:33]
A
Yeah, I just think those that are, that are seeing anything different right now, they're the ones putting time, energy and money toward it, no doubt, and applying. And. And so that's my point is like, they're developing their workforce, which takes time, energy, money, which takes a different approach than the traditional approach. But I think it's better. Like, it creates a far better product. It's better work, better people. You make more money, you're less stressed out, you have more people coming in the door. To me, it's just like, this is a way better model. Let's just do this. Let's
- [73:13]
B
yeah.
- [73:13]
A
And that's what's exciting.
- [73:15]
B
Yeah. And statistically, like, there's still a lot of work to be done, man. Like, I mean, a lot of work. What is it? 40% of the construction workforce is going to be retiring in the next.
- [73:25]
A
Yeah, well, I don't know. Seven years. That statistic I think is old. Pretty old at this point. But like, is it close? I don't even know. I don't think anybody really knows. But I just, you know. You know what was really weird to me? A few months ago, I get an invite for.
- [73:45]
B
To.
- [73:45]
A
To attend this event. BlackRock is having an infrastructure symposium or whatever the fuck is called. Some big fancy blackrock word. They're per. Their assets under management. They'd be the third largest economy in the world behind America and China. So this is a giant, very powerful organization.
- [74:09]
B
BlackRock, not Blackstone.
- [74:11]
A
No, they're both very powerful. BlackRock.
- [74:14]
B
Got it, got it.
- [74:14]
A
And you have Larry Fink talking to Micro on stage about the importance of the trades and infrastructure. And I'm sitting here, I'm like, what's going on? What? This is the last conversation that I thought I would ever, ever see. You've got this establishment class that's all AI, this technology that right now, the future, future, future, future, future. But then you've got blackrock taking a pause from that and talking about the trades. And why is that? Maybe they just believe in the trades. They woke up one day. Or maybe they're like, oh fuck, we still need these people. Because if Larry Fink, he's billionaire, one of the most powerful people in the world, he goes and drops a big old dump in the toilet, goes to flush, doesn't flush. One of the most powerful men in the world has a big problem. His toilet doesn't flush. And I think what's actually motivating all these, all these people to talk about this is AI ironically.
- [75:27]
B
Yeah, it is.
- [75:28]
A
Because they're, they understand. Oh shit. We're actually constrained by energy. We need compute land, bad water. Yeah. We're actually constrained by the physical world. World still to create our virtual world.
- [75:41]
B
Yeah.
- [75:43]
A
And we still need people to build the physical world.
- [75:46]
B
Absolutely.
- [75:46]
A
And so it's just fascinating to me even seeing like the most powerful people in the world acknowledging that, holy, we need these people. Which, that to me is crazy. Like, I don't think there's been an opportunity like this, I don't know, since people came back from World War II and started building the interstate system. Like it's, it's, it's this, it's, it's setting the stage for something potentially extraordinary. Potentially extraordinary. I just think, though, people think because our lifetimes have been very good and very comfortable, that that's just the state of affairs. But what I'm thinking about is. No, no, no, no, no. Like, I've traveled enough, you've traveled enough. The whole American experiment, it's not just an accident. It doesn't just happen. And it is not the natural state of affairs. We're kind of like, we kind of escaped from the way that. And, and that's why I think the world has been so prosperous over the past few centuries is we escaped this world that was like the powerful, control everything. And then you have the ants, you have the grasshoppers and ants. We kind of escaped that. Like, wait a minute. No, everybody is the same, has the same rights, everybody has the same voice. Everybody has these rights and has this opportunity. And it took a lot of work to establish that and to push that snowball down the hill. And it's been rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. There's been some blips along the way know, so on and so forth, but we're 250 years in. There's no promise of another 250. None.
- [77:33]
B
Not guaranteed.
- [77:33]
A
No, absolutely not. And I think we're staring. You may. Everybody within our generation is looking at this fork in the road that is to the left. We just kind of wind this thing down and that fork is. Well, the United States military dominance is in question currently because we can't control straight. We're 40/something trillion dollars in debt and it's only accelerating. We're adding trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions to that stack. How far does that go? Who knows? Our status of petrodollar world reserve currency, I don't know. It's a little shaky. It's not like, great, we spend more than any other country by a fucking mile on health care and yet we have the worst outcomes. We have declining birth rate, we have a declining life expectancy. Like there are some. Go buy a house as that 30. Oh, you can't, sorry. Go try to go to college. How much is college now compared to inflation? How much is inflation right now? Cost of living. Oh, you're gonna pay more taxes now and you're gonna get less for it. Oh, you're gonna pay maximum into Social Security. Do I think I'm gonna see a dollar from Social Security? Not a chance. Like there's all these things that are like, who. Okay, all right. And so to the left. It's like, this was a good ride, man. We'll just wind this thing down. I don't know what that looks like. Who knows? It may be slow, it may be dramatic. It may be we just kind of like roll into some kind of socialism. I don't know. Who knows? Or do we. Do we go to the right? Us? It's not our parents, it's us and the next generation. Do we go to the right by saying, no, no, no, fuck this, man. We're better than this. Let's go be better. Let's. Let's go do more. But it's going to take sacrifice, it's going to take service. It's going to take work to get us there. Because this is a steaming pile of shit right now that you guys have left us. But the opportunity is still there. It's like the fire, it's not burned out completely. There's still, like, it just. We just need to breathe life into it, which then paves the way for another potential century plus, which is the camp I'm in. That's the camp I'm in. Let's go. And that, I think, starts with infrastructure. I think infrastructure is a big, big, big piece of that.
- [80:28]
B
Yeah. I mean, things don't happen and I'll
- [80:29]
A
get off my soapbox now.
- [80:30]
B
Think. No, thank you for that, man. I appreciate that. You know, I appreciate the passion. You know, things. Things don't happen unless, like, people make them happen.
- [80:41]
A
Yes. And that.
- [80:42]
B
And, and, but. And, and I think there. There's. There's a. There's like a. This intuition that we have where it's just like, it will. Things will work themselves out. But things like, if you look at, like, the course of history and, you know, like, innovation, I mean, and how much of it's happened in the United States and it's been like, individuals stepping up saying, like, we're gonna fix this freaking problem.
- [81:09]
A
Yes.
- [81:09]
B
And it doesn't happen if people. People don't do it. It's really easy to just kind of grab a seat on the bus and take the ride. Yeah.
- [81:18]
A
And I think that's what generations have done. Like, what's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me? What's in it for me? I mean, look at our government. Do you think they're really serving us? Do you think? I mean, I was even watching. I was watching news. Where was I? We were in Zambia. I was watching the news, and there was a general Zambia.
- [81:37]
B
I've never been Well, I know.
- [81:39]
A
I was trying to figure out. I was watching the news and this is. This general is on television. He's, you know, really well dressed, this and that, Mr. General. And the news is. They ask him, they're like, you know, what about the American people? They haven't had really a vote in what's going on. He's like, well, the American people voted their government in, and if they don't like it, they can vote them out. And I was sitting there, I was like, what a crock of shit, man. That's not how it works right now. Are you. That's not how it works. Like, I don't believe that's how it works anymore. No way. Like, in theory, that's how it should, but there are so many games played. The whole deck is stacked against us now. But again, it's like, this is where. This is the ball I bat around currently. I have days where I'm really disappointed with leadership in this end industry. Really deeply.
- [82:38]
B
I can sense that.
- [82:39]
A
Disappointed because. Not even mad, just disappointed because it's like, we're better than this. We're better than this. And this industry has done so much good for you. Well, put a little bit back in. Like, can you leave a little bit here? Can you. Can you help us a little bit? Or are you just gonna take your chips and cash out? Which. That's your prerogative. Fine. But if everybody's doing that, what's left? That's the opportunity. And so some of. Some days are in that camp, but most days are like, well, if they got it, everything would be fine. I wouldn't even be here. There wouldn't be an opportunity. So it's a weird. Like, I wish they got it, but then at the same time, you and I wouldn't be around. It wouldn't really be necessary what we're doing if they did get it.
- [83:41]
B
Yeah. And I think the other thing is that in a situation like what you're talking about, like, if there's, you know, disappointment or there's, you know, frustration, like, there's also opportunity for somebody else to come do it better completely, you know, complete. And. And that. That's one thing that's pretty cool about, you know, a competitive market is if
- [84:06]
A
it's a competitive market.
- [84:07]
B
If it's a competitive market. Yeah.
- [84:08]
A
But if it's a competitive market, you know, there's.
- [84:11]
B
There's always somebody bigger, you know, or better or more agile, more nimble, you know, that could just come along and, and come take it, you know, and.
- [84:24]
A
And I Think that's what we're facilitating. We're keeping that competition alive. We're further in that competition because. And I need to do less bitching about these things I can't control, like, the government corruption and spending on stuff. I have no control over the fucking key bridge. I have no control over regulatory capture and the epa, which is a complete joke nowadays. I don't have any control over XYZ Materials company, big public company wanting to increase shareholder value. Zero control over any of that. But I can at least try to help the good guys become a lot more effective, a lot more profitable, and eat the fucking lunch of those in the way. I don't know if it's gonna work, but it's kind of the only play.
- [85:25]
B
Yeah. And I think this is such an interesting time, too, right now with AI and with how fast this technology has developed and is continuing to develop, like, every. Every single day. Every day there's, like, you know, these breakthroughs. You know, I mean, it's like November of last year, right? All of a sudden, you can basically talk to AI and it will, like, write all of your code for you. And it's, like, as good as what a senior engineer could do.
- [86:07]
A
Mm.
- [86:07]
B
And, you know, you would check it and say, all right, well, maybe this is wrong or maybe this is right. But now, like, that's. That's been. That's. That's been. That's been happening for the last five months.
- [86:19]
A
It's crazy. Like, we just. We just built our. Rebuilt our entire product in three months. It took us 15 before that. We just rebuilt it. We realized, oh, fuck, there are some problems here. So we had to rebuild it. It wasn't something we wanted to do.
- [86:35]
B
I've been there, too, but through two
- [86:37]
A
refactors, but, but, but, but just within 18 months to go from 15 months to three months. And some would probably argue that's going to be three weeks coming up. I don't know.
- [86:49]
B
Or a day.
- [86:50]
A
Yeah, I'm not. I'm not as much in the know, but. But this is also. So this is. This is something that I wanted to bring up to you. Have you now seen how. Now, see, this is. It's. It's like. It's actually kind of funny. Have you seen leaders like. No, we can just build this ourselves. Um, in the construction industry, to be
- [87:15]
B
honest with you, I have not run across that very much. I. I hear chatter and I see posts and I. But I, you know, I take it all with a grain of salt.
- [87:24]
A
Yeah.
- [87:25]
B
We've had people attempt to do that with our product and then not be able to do it and then say, well yeah, so that's, and that's part of the reason why we're deciding to move forward. So. But yeah, I mean that's going to become far more common. What about you?
- [87:47]
A
I've heard it talked about. I've never seen anything even like in the same neighborhood. Not to be, and it's not to be like to rest on laurels, but they're like, there's still a lot to it.
- [88:05]
B
Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Of course there's a lot to it. Building, building a software, building a software product is, I mean, harder than if I knew how hard it was going to be. I don't even know if I would have even started to be honest. Especially as a person who doesn't like, who did not come from, you know, software and didn't have like a tech, a quote unquote, like technical background. I agree it is, it is incredibly difficult. And then as a con, like as a former contractor who, you know, we, we try to build some of our own stuff and every time we did it took five times the amount of resources, the amount of effort, the amount of people, talent, all that.
- [88:48]
A
And then you get a shitty product at the end of the day.
- [88:50]
B
Well, and, but maybe it's good now, but who says it's gonna be good in three months? Yeah, you know, and that, that was back then before all of these tools. You know, basically you have like a freaking, you know, superpower that you can just tell it what you want and, and, and, and it does it. So I think we will see that there will probably be a wave of, of like contractors who are trying to build stuff, you know, internally and for some use cases it may, it might make sense, but I don't, I certainly wouldn't advocate somebody trying to go vibe code an ERP system for construction. Like, good luck would be my, would be my, would be my take.
- [89:35]
A
If you do it, good for you. I just, I haven't seen it done. Like every time I've seen a contractor be like, we're just gonna go build it ourselves. I'm like, because often, often nine and a half out of ten times I've seen it just go terribly wrong.
- [89:52]
B
Single digits, percentage wise of success in my opinion.
- [89:55]
A
And then it sets them back even further because they go to try to implement something and then get fatigue from it and the whole organization gets burned out and is mistrusting over it now and then, now they regress. Now when they should be adopting things that could actually accelerate their productivity. They're, they're not because they pushed something. We've, we've been guilty of that too. We like our product for a few years, even up until recently, just wasn't quite there. Now the product, it's fucking awesome and it's actually really, really, really exciting to use it now because it's like, whoa, this works really well. This is incredible.
- [90:35]
B
It's a nice feeling when that happens, isn't it? Especially after you've been trying for years to make it happen.
- [90:40]
A
Yeah, but it's taken years and years and years. And the irony is like we couldn't have gotten to where we are today. Like in hindsight it's like, well we could have done this way faster. But there's also the argument that's like, well you also need the few years and all of the mess ups to even get here to learn. And then now that you've built these lessons here, sure they're expensive but you can implement them going forward which then makes things so much faster. And then paired with how fast you can develop now, it's like, wait a minute, thank goodness we just screwed all these things up because not that that's going to avoid pitfalls future state, but I'm actually really happy we made some of the huge errors we made when everything wasn't moving as quickly.
- [91:28]
B
Well look, it just, it takes, it takes a long time to build a product and it takes time to get people to use it and to know what to build. Well and there are certainly like exceptions to this rule. So like obviously you know, Facebook, when that first, you know, came out, you know, chat, GPT, got email, know what, 100 million users and you know, the first like two months or something. But yeah, these, these are, these are, these are not, these are the, you know, exception rather than the rule. And, and for I think other like, for you know, tradition, more traditional software, it, it takes a while. Like it just takes a minute to get it built. And even if you have like a really clear idea, or at least for me, I felt like I had a very clear idea of exactly what I wanted to go build in my head. And it just proved to be more challenging than, than I, than I expected it to be and take longer and easy to give up too because you're just like this isn't working. I'm trying everything. Like yeah, I'm throwing every resource I have into this and it's still not like really clicking. Such a frustrating feeling when you want to deliver for the people, you know, who have like, supported you and you want to deliver for your end users. And it just feels like, oh, why can't we, why can't we, you know, get there? And then the other thing too that I've learned is that like, you never know when you're like, you could, you could be really close to a breakthrough and, and it could be like right around the corner. And, and I think I, I, I didn't, I didn't, I got down on myself a lot as, as, as I was going, you know, as I was going through that, why can't I just have already built a product that freaking works perfectly?
- [93:16]
A
You can, you could be really close to a breakthrough and then on the other side of things, you could be banging your head against the wall.
- [93:22]
B
Yeah.
- [93:23]
A
And just, and you could just bang your head against the wall. And it's, it's, it's so tricky because you don't really know which is which.
- [93:31]
B
No.
- [93:32]
A
And it's.
- [93:33]
B
So, but, but the one thing that works for me at least, you know, in like building Edge Vanta and, and making, you know, a software that has take, it's taken us a while, it's taken me a lot longer than I thought it would. But, you know, it works and solves the problem of like helping people win more jobs and leave less money on the table, which is kind of, you know, where we've, where, where we focus in addition to, you know, estimating automation, talking to users. Man. Just like watching people use it and just getting on a call, especially when it's like uncomfortable and you're like, oh, I know they're not going to like this part of it or, God, I hope they don't click there or whatever. Like just getting on the call and doing it, it's always, it's never, I've never regretted doing it. It's kind of like, you know, it's like going to the gym. I guess that's where you learn.
- [94:21]
A
Yeah. And that, I think that's one of
- [94:23]
B
the big,
- [94:25]
A
that's, there's a lot of construction con tech companies out there.
- [94:30]
B
Yeah.
- [94:31]
A
Trying to, they're just sitting there just like salivating over construction. Like, look at these idiots, dude. They're, they're like, it's like they're looking at the construction industry like they're just a bunch of apes and they've got fire and they're like, they haven't even discovered fire yet. I feel like it's, it's Silicon Valley people. Not all of them. Yeah, but, but it's not that simple. It's like it's insulated for a reason. They don't want the technology for a reason. Oftentimes they've been burned by it a hundred times. Oftentimes it doesn't really work for, for, for their world.
- [95:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [95:07]
A
They're building outside in weather, in a variable environment, all different variables that are not encountered within a computer. There are so many different challenges there. And sometimes, like, even if your product could help them, it just takes years and years and years and years and years to build the right relationship, to even have the conversation, to even get in the right room. Like, I think that's what I've realized is I've spent 10 years building relationships so I can very quickly get to the right place, person in the right room. But that takes 10 years and there's, there's no way to really accelerate that. And I guess I have, and you have too with like your newsletter LinkedIn to an extent, but there's still just a time component to it. And I'm, we're not taking it for granted, but I think that's the, that's some of the harder stuff here is the relationships is, is knowing what to build, is getting in the right rooms, is building the right team, getting the right people on board. Like, you can, you can have this great product and it can go nowhere. I've seen it so many times over. Like, there's a lot of really great products out there for the industry that just. That you never hear of ever, because they're just missing one of those key ingredients, I think. And that's not to say they can't find them, which is why I work seven days a week right now. Not by accident, because it's like I'm not resting on any laurel.
- [96:46]
B
There is.
- [96:47]
A
I'm an idiot. I have to go full bore because these kids are a lot smarter than me. And they're coming, they're coming. But it's all of those other things that I think make it really damn hard.
- [97:00]
B
It takes a long time to build, I think, credibility, you know, especially in this industry, like to your point, like people especially if they've been burned, like, and we've, we've heard this in like sales calls too. People are like, yeah, the last three things we did, like, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't work or they didn't support us and you know, they just basically took our money and, and then they wouldn't help us or things like that. So it's like you have To. It takes time and. But you have to like, go through those relationships, you know, with. Or at least we did, you know, with kind of our, our early customers and build that credibility to where it's like, well, if you want to talk to so and so, like, they'll be happy to tell you about their experience. Like, they're not paid by me or anything. They're just, they'll. They'll tell you, you know, how, how it's been. And then the other thing I think too is that like, to add value and maybe other areas that aren't directly like the software. Yeah, that, that's another thing. That was really, really good advice. So maybe that's like doing free stuff. Maybe it's like writing articles. Maybe it's connecting people, publish, connecting people.
- [98:05]
A
Maybe I do that all the time, dude.
- [98:06]
B
Publishing, you know, doing videos. Something that's just like, good for you no matter what and adds a little bit of value. That, that helps, I think, build the credibility to show them that like one, I care. Like, I really do. And like, I know, I know the industry and I don't have all the answers. Like, I've. Most of the things I've learned are because I f something up really bad and it like hurt and sucked. And I was like, okay, here's what I learned, you know, so doing that and building, you know, and the other thing too is that like, just because people aren't like interacting with it or like clicking on it or saying we like this doesn't mean that they're not watching. You know, some people just don't interact with social media, but they're still looking at. Oh, dude, a lot of, A lot of people be creeping but not speaking. You know what I mean?
- [98:55]
A
They are working, man, always. Yeah, they are. Everybody is lurking. There are very few people now that are completely disconnected. Very, very, very, very few.
- [99:07]
B
Yeah, I've, I've. The other thing is like measuring the right stuff and I think also being really, really realistic about how things are going. Like, I know when I first kind of started and I probably did this for way longer than I should have was like, I wanted to be like super positive about stuff all the time. When like building a startup and it's like you can't be super positive all the time. Like sometimes people, people, people want to know how it's really going on the team, especially like internally, especially on your team. And you have to have like, truth. Like, you can't just like make it all rosy. It just, it just doesn't. It just doesn't work. You know, like, and, and I, I would want to present this like positive mindset where, you know, at times it was like, guys like this, this doesn't work the way that it needs to and like we need to fix it and this is like the most important thing and we're not doing anything else until we actually get this done right now. Um, and I was less, I think it was a little bit like not as confident and probably more like gun shy and, and now I'm not that way at all. Like I'll just basically call it out. If something sucks, it sucks and it's got to get better. And we just, you know, there's, there's no, I think also holding on to problems. You know, me being the only one that knows about a problem is like the worst thing that you can do. You know, in an early stage company. Like you have to share it with the team because then they can actually get in and, you know, and help.
- [100:31]
A
Yeah, but it's more fun that way. I think it's a lot more fun that way. It's a completely different way of working too, compared to a traditional contractor.
- [100:38]
B
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
- [100:40]
A
There is no sharing of information.
- [100:43]
B
Good gosh. No. Yeah.
- [100:45]
A
But I think it's the better. It just makes it more enjoyable, I think. I really. You can't share everything because it's not even. Because people shouldn't know. It's more so it's like it can be a distraction. Like they don't need to know everything. They need to know their realm and how it applies to the bigger picture. And so sometimes it's like, I'm not going to tell people something just because it doesn't even matter. Like, don't worry about this. I'll worry about it. That's my job.
- [101:10]
B
Oh yeah.
- [101:10]
A
I totally insulate you from this. Yeah, I'll figure it the out.
- [101:14]
B
Like, yeah, things that are like that, that are in that, that vein. Yeah.
- [101:17]
A
And it could be like a big fire. But it's like to them it seems
- [101:22]
B
like it's a huge deal, but to you you're like, no, we're good.
- [101:24]
A
Exactly, exactly. And even if you don't know how you're going to work it out, you're like, I'm going to work it out. Like, we've done this a hundred times, we're going to figure it out. But that your point to giving people stuff that is huge. I think I have asked myself so many times, why are companies still so positive about what we're doing when it's taken us this long to figure out, and we're still figuring out. It's still far from perfect. And it's like, I think it's because, one, we've always. Our intentions have always been pure, always. That has never wavered. And if they're not, it will come out at some point. It's just a matter of time. And you can only keep up an act for so long, but after years and years and years and years and years, you finally break people down. And it's like, okay, maybe this. Maybe they're actually. They actually do care about this world. That's 1, 2. Speaking the language of the industry is not to be underestimated. Like, you being able to sit down with one of these guys and even just like, it's just amazing. Like, when you meet somebody who has no idea who you are and you just throw a term or two out there that clearly says, like, I know how to pave an interstate. And there's that immediate connection. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't make everything easier, but you know what I'm talking about. Like, you kind of see the, like, oh, he's one of us. Like that. That one moment. Yeah, that goes a long way.
- [102:57]
B
It does.
- [102:57]
A
And there's no way to. You can't fake that. That just takes time. And then that third piece, giving people shit. Like, we have given and given and given and given. That's all I've been doing. Social media, like, we're not. We're. We're getting something as a result, too. But this podcast, the YouTube videos, the. All the social posts, the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of social posts, like, and the value you've created for companies along the way, it's. It's built this trust that is. That we could not have bought. Yeah, you can't.
- [103:37]
B
And I'm glad that you guys are doing it, and I'm glad that you guys are stuck with it, because we need it. We need this. We need this. Like, the industry. I say that when I say we.
- [103:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [103:51]
B
Needs this and needs. I think, you know, like, the conference, too, because 99% of conferences that I've been to are kind of boring.
- [104:01]
A
But, well, but it's.
- [104:02]
B
Yours is good.
- [104:04]
A
Since Dirt World, conferences have gotten better.
- [104:06]
B
Are they getting better?
- [104:07]
A
Some. I mean, some of them.
- [104:08]
B
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- [104:09]
A
Some of them. I think. I think some of them have gotten better. People are always watching. Yeah, they're always watching.
- [104:15]
B
I. I do like the part about. And this was something that somebody told me or very early on was just like add value, right? Add value in, in whatever way that you can. I think like being able to speak the industry lingo is helpful with training too. You know, not just like selling, but also like, okay, people have purchased a product, now they want to make sure that people are using it and getting value out of it and being able to connect like with the individual end users is, is, is, is a big, is a big deal and like nobody's above it in at least you know, for, for us.
- [104:51]
A
I mean
- [104:53]
B
that was I was doing before the podcast today was you know, like new customer helping with adoption. Even though like we have a team, you know, it's still makes a difference when, you know, you kind of roll up your sleeves and show people that they matter. Right?
- [105:09]
A
Sure.
- [105:11]
B
And you're not going to get that with. Especially at bigger companies. I think one of the things too about being a small company is like take every advantage that you possibly can by being small. There are things that you can do and that I can do that bigger companies can't do.
- [105:29]
A
Dude, even this is something bigger companies can't do. I saw this bigger company CEO, big industry technology platform CEO, he posted some bullshit on LinkedIn. It was like six really well crafted sentences that mean nothing at all. And it's like this guy can't even talk. This guy can't even say anything in public. That sucks. And do I put my foot in my mouth all the time? All the time.
- [106:02]
B
I have to.
- [106:04]
A
All the time, all the time. But the value of being able to have legitimate conversation, express legitimate viewpoints and even just from a young leadership perspective, like just being able to talk about stuff and bat things around and have fun with ideas and go over here and go over there. It's. It allows us to move so much faster, I think than if I was having to craft everything that came out of my mouth. Oh my God.
- [106:40]
B
Took a long time.
- [106:42]
A
It. You wouldn't go anywhere. I don't think it works in today's world. I think it works at those big traditional businesses. I don't think it works anymore though. I don't think it works.
- [106:58]
B
Yeah, I, I don't, I don't know that. Yeah, big companies are a whole. Let's not an environment that I'm familiar with. So.
- [107:06]
A
No, no, no, it's. But that's also the crazy thing that's happened over the past like six months was like the big companies, they were always the incumbent. They had decades of experience. They had this giant tech stack, like this giant castle with Big walls around it and a big old moat with really hungry crocodiles and alligators and sharks and landmines. All kinds of fun stuff around their castle. And it just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And now the whole thing has seemingly inverted. That is like that tech stack, that very tech stack, that wall and that moat and everything around the castle is now the liability. They can't move quickly. They're encumbered by all of this legacy, by all of this, by the very tech stack that has gotten them to where they are, which I guess is like the. It's a tale as old as time. But now I'm looking at these big companies like, fuck, I don't envy them at all because now they're. They're. They're stuck with what they have.
- [108:19]
B
Yeah.
- [108:19]
A
I mean, which, I mean, still, they're very powerful. But I'm looking at them, I'm like, never before have I looked at them. I've always kind of been like, the little shit that's like, yeah, we can take them down. The big guys were David, you know, and that's Goliath, and we're coming after you. But now I'm looking at them like, dude, we can make a run at these guys. Like, we can actually make a run at these guys. And then now the big platforms, they're selling the private equity and this and that and just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, further and further away. So they have other problems beyond even just the legacy, the technology that they're built upon. And like, there's foundational issues that they can't get beyond that. That we can just zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip. Just zoom around all over the place.
- [109:12]
B
Yeah, well, it's called, there's. There's a term for it. It's called the Innovator's dilemma. Yes, yes.
- [109:17]
A
That's why this is not new.
- [109:18]
B
Yeah, no, no, no. But I mean, and it actually happened in, in, in construction. The. The example in the book called the Innovator's Dilemma is. Is, you know, cable excavators, right?
- [109:34]
A
Ah, yeah.
- [109:36]
B
Hydraulic excavators were not a thing. Right.
- [109:40]
A
They're not even that old. They're not, which is crazy. But.
- [109:44]
B
But the way they came up was interesting. And, and there was all these, you know, cable excavator, you know, Bucyrus, Erie and all these companies. I don't know how to pronounce that right.
- [109:53]
A
Yeah.
- [109:54]
B
But, you know, they were the big dogs. Huge. Right. They own the industry and they just kept making stuff bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Listening to their customers saying, all right, I want to be able to move more material, right? I want to keep going. I want, I want to. Big bucket, right? And, and, and eventually, you know, these hydraulic excavators started, started to come out, but they started out small. So they were like landscaping and like digging like little utility trenches for like houses. And you know, the big excavation guys were like, that doesn't, that's not gonna, that's not gonna get it done for us. That's just, that's like a toy basically. You know, it's kind of how a wall. Lot of like things looking like toys, like Airbnb. You're gonna let people, you're gonna let people stay in your house, sleep in your house, strangers.
- [110:44]
A
You're gonna like drive people around in your car.
- [110:48]
B
What are you doing? Really weird. But this happens. There's, there's a consistent history with this. And you know, and, and, and then with, with, with the cable excavators was interesting was that it became, you know, hydraulics started to get really good and it became apparent like that this is the future. And then the cable excavator companies, they wouldn't fully make the switch, so they actually would make, they actually had a modified excavator where it was like part cable, part hydraulic. And it was like, so they could, it was representative of the fact that they just couldn't make that jump because they already have this existing customer base. A lot of profitability. Like this is a weird thing is that you can be extremely profitable while this is happening, but you can't walk away from that because your whole incentive structure is built around, you know, make this product that kind of got you here. And it makes it really hard to innovate because you've already got people that are paying you a lot of money and all your people are incentivized to want to be able to add more to this one. The other thing too that's interesting is that big companies would don't get excited about small wins the way the small companies, companies can. So like if you're a small company and you close a hundred thousand dollar deal, high fives ring the bell. Like, let's go, we're pumped. You know, in a big company that's doing hundreds of millions in revenue, it's like, what? Who cares? You know, that's just, that's, that's, that's just like a, that's a, that's a small contract. But you know, and you look at what happened with, you know, with the hydraulic excavators. I mean, I don't think, I think, I don't know that any of these, the existing, you know, cable excavator companies are still around and then the Cyrus Erie, they were acquired, I believe.
- [112:27]
A
Yep.
- [112:29]
B
But you know, hydraulic excavators are basically, I mean, that's all the excavators almost on almost every single job site.
- [112:36]
A
Yeah. It states in mining, ironically, it's still, still ropes. But, but, but the other interesting thing is if you're a publicly traded company or bought by private equity.
- [112:49]
B
Yeah.
- [112:49]
A
You're shackled by a model. Sure, you have tremendous access to capital, which is a giant advantage. But then you're also shackled to. What about next quarter? What about next quarter? What about next quarter? Which, which does not drive innovation. Like, I think you have to be a really unique company with a unique set of leadership to keep that pressure, that institutional capital pressure away to allow you to innovate in the first place. Because it doesn't reward innovation.
- [113:28]
B
It takes, I think it would be an incredible amount of courage to sit in that, to sit in one of these companies or as one of the leaders of these companies and basically say like, the current product that we have today is not the product that's going to get us into the future and we need to basically totally scrap it and go do something else. And I mean, there's only a few people who have done this over the years. Andy Grove at Intel Survive would maybe be probably the, you know, the one example that comes to mind. But they're so rare that we know them by name or it's like an
- [114:01]
A
Alphabet that has a share structure that allows for it, like a different class of shares and we still control the company. And yeah, it's, it's. I mean, look at Conexpo. You could have put 2020 on the banner for this year's Con Expo. That was 20, 26, six years separate. It's like it should look different. It didn't look different. And maybe machines are just. And that's, that's me being critical. But it didn't look different. And it's not just Con Expo, it's Bauma too. Like, I like the show, but I'm not going to the next Bauma for the sake of the equipment to see what's different because nothing's different. And it's just, I get it, it's a slower product cycle.
- [114:51]
B
Yeah.
- [114:51]
A
But. And maybe an excavator is the best it can get now, but there's also the side that is like, there isn't necessarily the incentive to innovate as well, to really try things different to do, to be the RG letourneau and just send it in a hundred different ways and see what sticks. Oh, wait, Scraper is actually a pretty good concept.
- [115:13]
B
Or the bulldozer actually works pretty good.
- [115:15]
A
Let's do more of that. Mm, yeah, I'm thinking maybe it's happening
- [115:19]
B
behind the scenes, maybe, but I think more about, like, the software side, I guess, because that's kind of my, you know.
- [115:24]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [115:25]
B
You know, focus. And. And I just. I don't know, I think they're big. There were big companies that were kind of started out in one particular, like, vertical slice of the workflow. You know, maybe it was, I don't know, estimating, for instance. And like, when that came out, it was like leaps and bounds better than what was available, you know, at the time. And then like a really great, you know, a lot of customer loyalty and, you know, feedback and then. And then customers wanting more, right? And saying, like, well, what. What else can you do for us to basically become like, the solution for our. All of our software needs. Right. So then these platforms got developed and then they started to step out into all of these other different areas, you know, of the business based on what their customers were telling them, you know, like, hey, we need some help here. I want to be able to manage my telematics or, you know, my fleet or whatever. And then so they, you know, followed the market, follow, you know, what your customers tell you. Right. And then. But over time, I think when you're. When we're doing so many different things at one time, it's. It can be really hard to focus, especially under one single umbrella of a company. And then that leads to maybe we're not keeping up on some of the original core things that got us there. And then I think what we started to see is now there are some niche players who have come in and said, no, we're picking a vertical slice and we're going to be really freaking good at just this.
- [117:02]
A
But then you have it the other way too. That's like, I don't want 12 tools. So what I have to.
- [117:09]
B
So what deal with it is. Well, is, Is. Is. Is. Yes, is my take on that. Because if you. If you don't want. If you don't want 10 tools, then you're gonna have one tool that's just okay. But if you want to have the best possible tech stack, the best possible solute software, it's gonna take more than one and, and making sure that they talk to one another and that the data transfer is clean and that it's real time is, is, is very important. And you know, having them all in sync, that's a big deal. But it can't just be. I'm just gonna, I just want one single solution. I, I understand the frustration there but like if you want that then you're just gonna have kind of in my opinion, mediocre software.
- [117:59]
A
But that I think is the state of the industry right now. I hear that frustration more than just about any other frustration.
- [118:06]
B
What frustration?
- [118:07]
A
Too many tools. We've done too much. I talked to a big company the other day. It's like we just cut everything. We're just going to focus on two foundational tools for right now. We just, we just got rid of our, almost our entire tech stack.
- [118:24]
B
Interesting.
- [118:27]
A
I just again, I think it's, it requires a different level of investment to make that work across and it's more so organizational change than the technology itself. Oh it's an implementation. It's absolutely people and that infrastructure is just not there.
- [118:42]
B
Yep.
- [118:43]
A
And I think they're realizing it. Which again comes back to that different model that I think is the future still regardless of the technology. It's driven by communication, leadership, people. And it starts at the top because sometimes you don't have the top all that bought in and when they're not that bought in on something. Yeah, it doesn't go as well.
- [119:07]
B
I, I, I, my, I kind of, I guess I kind of see things a little bit, I kind of see things a little bit differently in that part of having like multiple tools. There's more maintenance, there's more upkeep, there's more management and change management cost.
- [119:29]
A
Yeah.
- [119:30]
B
But it also, it helps make sure that you have the best.
- [119:35]
A
I'm not arguing against it do you know.
- [119:38]
B
But I think it's an important nuance and that something that a lot of companies face because you have this fatigue. Dude, I am not trying to go do another ERP implementation. It sucks to do that. I get it. But if we're paying a team of 15 people to manage this software and we could have two people managing the software and redeploy those other 13 people onto more important things. And it requires us to have two different solutions. You know, it might be worth it.
- [120:21]
A
But I think you do that with two people. If the leadership of the business is involved in it is involved in the implementation and the utilization and making it a priority in the first place,
- [120:38]
B
I
- [120:39]
A
think it starts with leadership no matter what.
- [120:41]
B
Yeah. People process technology in that order. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you don't have buy in, then there's no point in even.
- [120:49]
A
That's what I've been telling people with, with our product. Now, dude, if leadership's not bought in like that, it's interesting. We don't have a utilization problem with our product at our company, which. There's a heavy bias there. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy bias. Sure. But it's actually been surprising to me. We don't talk about it ever. Like we do from a product standpoint, but not from like a, hey, you need to use the product standpoint. Like we're not having to like drive adoption and we haven't for a very long time. Because I think everybody knows I'm doing it every day. Randy's doing it every day, Dan's doing it every day. Like leadership is bought in on it, which then I think drives it across the organization. And where it's been most successful is like one. Leadership's involved, but leadership just, they have to be, they have to be in, in involved in the process, like want it, you know, like, they can't just be, oh yeah, yeah, fine, you guys do whatever you want. Like they have to be, they have to be leading it in some capacity. Whether it. And maybe that's even just like, yes, our organization is open to doing things in a different way. Yeah, it's just being open minded.
- [122:07]
B
Yeah, I'd say it's a, I'd say it's a two, It's a, you know, having done like a lot of training and like, you know, launches and implementation. The best like companies that I've seen do this, they have a process for like evaluating things and tools to see if they align with like what they're trying to do as a company. Typically they have a team where it's not just one person who's obviously one person has to make the decision, but they have a group of people that's kind of like a representative sample of not just the champions, but also like the end users. And, and they're involved in it too. So they're able to see it, they're able to understand it. Why, okay, if this is important, why is it important? And, and they get bought in, in the process as opposed to somebody saying, you're using this, it's got to happen. And like I, because that, I've seen that too. And that really does not work.
- [123:11]
A
Never.
- [123:12]
B
Because people are just like, I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm not doing it just because you told me, you know, I want to do it if it's actually going to make my life better or make my job easier or, you know, add to the bottom line. So, and I, I don't, I don't know that I've seen this more often recently with this, like, committee approach, but it's, I think it's a really good one. And it also, you see it downstream because the companies that have done that, the companies that run that type of, like, what I'll call like a process, the adoption is like, way better at these companies, like, because they get it, they're bought in, the expectations are all aligned, they've seen it, they've actually worked with the product and they're like, yeah, we're in. And then those people can be champions within the organization to get broader use as opposed to the vendor, you know, pulling all the time. It's so much easier when you have, like, an internal champion who's like, yeah, this is awesome. This is how we use it. And, and then, you know, and then it really starts to, like, grow and, and spread. But it starts all the way back, you know, at the beginning and making sure that people are aligned on why. And the best leaders do that and keep their team, you know, involved, even though eventually, you know, they, they gotta make the call. Yeah. So.
- [124:31]
A
All right, well, we can bring this home. I think we got to a good place. I'm happy with where we ended up. Yeah. I just need to quit being a poopy pants about everything. You're good. Just get on with it.
- [124:44]
B
You're doing good work.
- [124:46]
A
It's, we're both, we're both just chipping away one day at a time.
- [124:49]
B
Yeah, man. Stone cutting. Chip, chip, chip.
- [124:52]
A
There's, yeah, there's, I, I, there's no other way. There just, there isn't. And it's so, it's so tempting to look at the chat GPTs of the world out there and be like, why couldn't have we done? Why couldn't we do that? But when you, when you look at the 99.9% of anybody that does anything significant, it's just chipping away.
- [125:18]
B
Yeah. Chipping away. It's one of the things I admire the most about you, man. I mean, you're one of the most consistent people I've, I've ever met.
- [125:24]
A
It's all I have.
- [125:25]
B
You, you, you, you said it and you just, like, you just do it. And it's, it definitely, it's motivating as your friend to see that and be like, all right, well, you know, I. I gotta stay on top of my stuff. It's good. It's. It's a positive influence.
- [125:42]
A
I. I appreciate that. Yeah. If you go on Strava, you know, I'm gonna be on there.
- [125:47]
B
Yeah. 2:37am Hitting. Hitting the rower.
- [125:50]
A
No, it's. That's sometimes the time zone. It doesn't adjust automatically on there.
- [125:55]
B
Oh.
- [125:55]
A
It's really weird. So people think I'm up at, like, two. Sometimes I am. But no, I. I wake up at 4. Come on.
- [126:02]
B
Oh, gosh. You sleep in?
- [126:06]
A
Well, I sleep in till five on the weekends.
- [126:08]
B
Wow.
- [126:09]
A
Yeah.
- [126:09]
B
That man. Liberal. That's quite liberal. That's.
- [126:12]
A
Yeah. But I go to bed seven, so it's. It's only possible when you don't have a family or a life. But it works really well. Really good for me.
- [126:22]
B
Yeah. I mean, you got to find what works for you. You know, that doesn't work for everybody else, so.
- [126:26]
A
Well, excited for you. Excited for the time we live in, and I'm excited to catch up in the next. Whenever that is, because I'm sure what we're working on right now will be dramatically different for the both of us, hopefully in a good way.
- [126:41]
B
Yeah, me too.
- [126:43]
A
Okay. Well, thanks for stopping in, people. Can.
- [126:46]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [126:46]
A
Find you. Weekly newsletter.
- [126:49]
B
A weekly newsletter. Tristan's newsletter and EdgeVienta AI. And. And then. And then on. On LinkedIn as well.
- [126:59]
A
Super.
- [127:00]
B
So that's it. Thanks for having me, man.