Forty Years of Dirt World Leadership Lessons w/ Dave Lersch – DT 338

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Episode: Forty Years of Dirt World Leadership Lessons w/ Dave Lersch – DT 338
Release Date: May 15, 2025

In this engaging episode of Dirt Talk hosted by Aaron from BuildWitt, veteran industry leader Dave Lersch shares invaluable insights from his 40-year career in the Dirt World. The conversation delves deep into leadership development, workforce challenges, safety culture, the impact of technology, and the importance of effective communication within the construction industry.

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Introduction to Leadership Development

[00:13] Aaron introduces the concept of leadership training within the industry, highlighting its initial challenges:

A: "The initial concept for the training videos was all leadership, so it was originally called Build with Leaders."

Dave emphasizes the often overlooked priority of leadership development compared to production and safety. He uses a memorable analogy to illustrate the difficulty of instilling leadership skills:

A: "It's like giving a dog a pill. You have to put it in, like, a dollop of peanut butter or something like that."

They discuss the evolution of their content to include safety and equipment, but Dave underscores that leadership remains the most significant benefit.

---

Influences and Early Lessons

Dave recounts the impact of influential books on his leadership philosophy:

[02:03] A: "It was that one. And then my dad also got me How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. It was like, man, this is so straightforward."

These readings helped Dave realize that leadership and communication are skill sets that can be developed. Despite not being naturally extroverted, he found excitement in the potential for personal growth in these areas.

---

Career Reflections and Workforce Challenges

Reflecting on his long tenure, Dave shares his experiences and the importance of detaching to gain perspective:

[04:10] B: "I really couldn't see some things because I was so close to them... It was gratifying. It's been humbling to think, why did you make that choice?"

He acknowledges that a significant portion of the workforce is nearing retirement, presenting challenges for the industry:

[18:08] B: "I don't think it was our idea management. These people know what's going on, and that's what helped us get some traction."

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Building a Safety Culture

A substantial portion of the discussion centers around cultivating a robust safety culture. Dave highlights the transition from mere rule-following to embedding safety into the organizational culture:

[28:10] A: "I think that's been probably one of the bigger shifts in the construction industry over the past 20, 30 years is safety and working that out."

He shares anecdotes about enforcing safety measures, even in seemingly unnecessary situations, to build a culture of care:

[29:14] B: "We had paving crews using hard hats in the middle of a cornfield with nothing overhead, but we had a 100% hard hat policy."

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Embracing Technology and AI

Aaron and Dave explore the role of technology and artificial intelligence in the construction industry. Dave views AI as a tool to enhance productivity and safety rather than a replacement for human workers:

[50:12] A: "I'm more Optimistic. I'm like, this is a great tool in the construction world."

However, they caution against over-reliance on technology, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of human insight and adaptability in complex construction environments:

[54:54] B: "It totally is."

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Effective Communication and Organizational Culture

The conversation underscores the critical role of communication from leadership in fostering a positive organizational culture. Dave advocates for genuine, consistent communication and the integration of core values into daily operations:

[74:24] A: "But I think it's starting at the top is essential."

They discuss practical strategies such as role-playing and regular reinforcement of core values to ensure that leadership principles are deeply ingrained within the team:

[78:15] B: "Repetitiveness is huge."

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Work-Life Balance and Mental Wellness

Both speakers highlight the importance of work-life balance and mental wellness. Dave shares his personal experience with retirement, emphasizing the rejuvenating effect of taking time off:

[38:08] A: "We make those accommodations now, what we have going on. But one thing I hear at the end of the two weeks every single year is, 'I had no idea how much I needed that.'"

Aaron echoes the sentiment, discussing his own practices of taking brief moments to reset and reflect:

[42:13] A: "Just sat and thought and reflected and had a cookie. And it was like 15 minutes. But even that 15 minutes is some of the most valuable time I'll spend."

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Mentoring and Legacy

The episode delves into the importance of mentoring the next generation and building a lasting legacy. Dave emphasizes that the true legacy lies in the people and culture established within the organization:

[48:16] A: "But the people are what... make the world better."

They discuss strategies for effective mentoring, ensuring that core values are passed down and that new leaders are equipped to uphold and evolve these principles:

[79:34] B: "You give them the opportunity to lead based on their understanding and ownership of the values."

---

Overcoming Challenges and Adversity

Aaron and Dave share their approaches to handling challenges and adversity within the industry. They advocate for a mindset of resilience and proactive problem-solving:

[58:37] B: "Understanding adversity... what's Jocko say when something bad happens? He goes good."

They stress the importance of maintaining a positive attitude and taking ownership of situations to foster a productive and harmonious work environment.

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Conclusion: Continuous Learning and Adaptability

Wrapping up the discussion, both speakers emphasize the necessity of continuous learning and adaptability in leadership. They highlight the ongoing journey of personal and professional growth:

[119:22] A: "It's about lifelong learning."

Dave encourages leaders to remain curious and open to new ideas, ensuring that their organizations can navigate the evolving landscape of the construction industry effectively.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dave Lersch [00:19]: "It's like giving a dog a pill. You have to put it in, like, a dollop of peanut butter or something like that."

• Aaron [02:19]: "This is something that anybody can get better at. Like, this is a skill set. Leadership, communication, relationships. This is all a skill set."

• Dave Lersch [29:19]: "Brad Miller's number. Protect my employees. Make sure they go home the way they came to work."

• Aaron [50:27]: "You can now take all of that information and analyze it far more effectively to then incorporate it into whatever's coming."

• Dave Lersch [57:28]: "It's not for everybody. This is not a world for everybody."

• Aaron [77:18]: "Going from A to B, that's a lot. Repetitiveness is huge."

• Dave Lersch [107:01]: "What legacy are you going to leave?"

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide to effective leadership in the construction industry, offering practical advice and heartfelt reflections from a seasoned professional. Whether you're a seasoned leader or an aspiring one, Dave Lersch's experiences provide valuable lessons on building a strong, resilient, and empathetic workforce.

Transcript

[A]

The initial concept for the training videos was all leadership, so it was originally called Build with Leaders.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, everybody says they want to invest in leadership, but it's not really the priority. Production is the priority. Safety is the priority. There you go, so on and so forth. So what everybody needs is leadership development. But I mean, it's like giving a dog. The best analogy is giving a dog a pill. You have to put it in, like, a dollop of peanut butter or something like that. So we were just trying to give them the pill, the industry the pill, and they're like, now we're good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then. And not that the other stuff we're doing is not important. Like, it's all important. So it led us to, then getting more into safety equipment, what's going on at job sites, to, to grow the base of content to what it is today. But the biggest benefit is in, in my opinion, is the leadership stuff.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

So, yeah, we, I think we recorded 30 or 40 videos with Jocko that day.

[B]

Is that right? Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Just sat there for like four or five hours.

[B]

Yeah. That, that leadership stuff gets the. What we have fought. Well, this is the flavor of the month, you know, this is. Okay, now, you guys are hot on this a little bit. But can you sustain it? And that's what we never did very well.

[A]

We.

[B]

But with extreme ownership. We could sustain it because we used his videos, you know, and we kept going back to it. And then our. And I didn't realize how many of our field people were already following him. And, and you too. It sounds like this is not, it's, this isn't even our idea management. These people know what's going on, and that's what helped us get some traction.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's such a. I mean, it's the simplest system I've come across from a leadership standpoint. The first time, I think my dad bought me extreme ownership when I was maybe in high school.

[B]

Really?

[A]

It had, I think it was like, just recently out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean, the first time I read it, it's like, this just makes perfect. It's like one of those few books I've read. It's like, yeah, yeah, this. I get it. Like, I, I, I've never had it explained this simply before.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It was that one. And then my dad also got me how to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Dale Carnegie. And that was another one. It was like, man, this is so straightforward. It was like. That was when I started realizing, wait a minute, this is Something that anybody can get better at. Like, this is a skill set. Leadership, communication, relationships. This is all a skill set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I can get better at it, which was exciting for me because it, you know, I'm naturally not a leader, I'm naturally not a communicator. I'm naturally not any kind of extrovert whatsoever. So that realization was actually quite exciting for me.

[B]

It can be learned. Yeah, it can be. And back to your analogy of the dog and the. It's not a one time pill. No, it is in it. And that's like, you know, one of those questions you asked me. When did I start wanting to do. It's like, it's just as I look back and have done this 40 rear, 40 year reflection. It's like it's been a part of something I think started with my dad, you know, and again that's the first 20 years. And then I went 10 years at a time. I looked at it. It's like, man, there was just something in each one of those decades.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That sort of is like, okay. And then again you come in at the end, you know, an extreme ownership. I'm like, I wish I had another 10 to go. But I'm like the amount of energy it takes, you know, and just whatever. But that's. Yeah, it's not a one time pill.

[A]

What's, what's that, what's that reflection process been like? Because you. We're sitting here almost beginning of April, so you've been retired for now three months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you've had some time to think about things. 40 year career, same company. What have you been thinking about?

[B]

Well, I come back to Jocko. Yeah, it's good to detach because you. I really, I really couldn't see some things because I was so close to them. And people say, yeah, no, it's true, it's true. And so as I reflect back, man, are there things I would have done differently? No doubt, no doubt. But that chance to detach and get away and get up and above and look back down in has been really good. It's been gratifying. It's been humbling to think, why did you make that choice? You know? And again, in the moment, I think I tried to do the best you could. I think everybody, everybody does, I believe. I mean, we don't have people trying to screw up. We don't have people trying to get hurt. They make the best decisions. And you know, we talked last night when I did that extreme ownership training down here and when the intensity is Going on. It's just made me more empathetic to our workers, to staff that work for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, my wife's a good reminder of, you know, how to deal with people, you know, because I'm sort of. I can be a pusher sometimes, and that can get me in trouble.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I've reflected on those. Should have been a better listener. Just, just listen. I didn't always have to talk, you know, and those are some more extreme ownership, I think. I don't know if it's Mark Miller. You guys have turned me on to so many. The leader should speak last in a meeting. Just be quiet and listen.

[A]

And it's, it's so simple, but it's so much easier said than done. I mean, every single time I have to catch myself, like, no, no, don't go like. And it's. There's a benefit to going last because then you can hear other people's opinions and thoughts without you influencing them. Which definitely happens on any kind of team.

[B]

I think one of the biggest things Aaron I learned was it would be so beneficial because I think we're always under time constraints. That's why I speak first. I don't have time to have this meeting. I don't have time to have this discussion. I don't have time not to have that discussion. And again, just to have a meeting where you don't have to make a decision where you could come and people can really say what they think. And the decision hasn't been made because I would still listen because a lot of times I know what I want to happen. I imagine you as an entrepreneur, you know what you want to have happen, and we maybe give lip service to. Yeah. Tell me your thoughts. But I know what I'm going to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's a reflection that I think. Boy, we've had a lot of smart people in the room and I should have listened more.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. That's, I think, like life and Jocko, they say intent has a smell. And so, yeah, if you go into a meeting already knowing what the outcome should be, you're not listening to anybody. And they can pick up on that. People are smart, they're intuitive.

[B]

Very much so.

[A]

Um, and just having that curious mind is so beneficial. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. I feel like that's a trap. The construction industry I fall into all the time is you place these oftentimes arbitrary constraints, time constraints on things, because it's, it's so production based, deadline based. We've got to Go, we've got to go. And a lot of it is true, but a lot of it works against the industry by not slowing down to speed up. Like, like everybody's just running so hard that you don't take any time to sit around and ask, hey, what? Why isn't this working? What's going on? Could we do this better? And you just run, you run, you run, you run, you run. And it ultimately, a lot of times I feel like if you were to just stop and take a moment and reflect upon what the heck's going on, you would end up with a better result overall. But because of those pressures, those constraints, sometimes from the outside, sometimes internally, you don't see it happen all that much.

[B]

Yeah. And that's why I said to detach. And I have to look back and say, over 40 years, I didn't have time to have more conversations. I mean, that's just. That's not logical. There was time, my priorities. And again, I think as leaders, we have to prioritize different things and take the time for those things. You know, I think Jamie Cochran says, ask earnest questions, not just lip service to them. And I'll tell you. And I don't watch his shows often, but Ted Lasso makes a statement. And when you guys asked me to present at the Dirt World, I used one of his statements. And he says, be curious, not judgmental. So when I come into a meeting, I already know what I'm thinking, really be curious. And I think Jocko would say, go in with the idea that you don't know everything. We often think we do. But what could I learn out of this that could help the organization? I think I. Reflecting back, those are things I would do differently.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I've talked about this before, but I see a lot of job sites and I kind of know what's going on. But every time, whenever I see something that doesn't make sense, like an excavator set up in a certain way, it's just like, this isn't right. I, you know, I want to fall into the trap that is like, hey, that's not right. That's. What are you guys doing? But I always then course correct or try to course correct to why is it set up that way in like a genuine way? And almost every single time I'll get a great answer because there's a lot of information that I don't have. Like, I. All I have is this one snapshot of what the heck's going on that job site at that one time. I don't know what happened yesterday. I don't know what needs to happen tomorrow, next week. I don't know what kind of equipment they have available. I don't. All this information, I don't know. And for me to quickly go to, well, that's not right. It's like, well, okay, by the book, that might not be right. But. But given the circumstances, given how the job was bid, given all this other information, that's the best way to do it. And almost every single time, it's like, wow, didn't think of that. Of course. Like, of course you're doing it this way. I should have known.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. One of your questions you asked me was, how did I get into this field?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I started out in public accounting. I'm an accountant.

[A]

Are you really?

[B]

By nature, really? Jason Richmond and I both graduated from Anderson University, so that's where I got my business degree. So I was in public accounting for two and a half years. And just like, I didn't like doing taxes, I didn't like doing this stuff. And I. There's this construction company in our town called Miller Brothers. And I'm like, I don't know anything about them. And I get a phone call. Dale and Floyd Miller, the original guys, are out playing golf with one of their buddies, and they need somebody in their accounting department. And just happens, just, small world. Make a connection. I get a phone call. They asked me to come in and interview. So I go in as the assistant controller when I start in 84.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And then you talk about going on to a job site and maybe not knowing everything. Ten years into it, Dean Miller says to me, I think we need to start a safety department. And, Dave, why don't you take the lead on that? I'm an accountant, managerial again. I'd been around some big machines on farming. We're a rural farming community. I didn't know. And so I go out to a drainage crew, and I'm going to talk safety to those guys who are down there 30ft. I knew better than to even act like I knew what I was doing. I just asked a lot of questions back to those asking questions. And I think that helped me in my career. I knew enough to know that I didn't know anything. And just asking questions and then organizing the thoughts that came out of those. And that's how you formulate. We didn't have safety 35 years ago at Miller Brothers. I mean, it was a. Not really there. So again, I just. But that's how I got started. And it's just like just progressed. And I think, I think I tried to ask questions and realized, boy, I don't know anything about this. What can I learn about it? And I think even to how I end up all this marketing and social media. I know enough, Aaron, that I can't be the expert in social media, but I know to hire young people, get connected with guys like you. I think that helped me a lot. Just asking questions.

[A]

Yeah, A lot of people always ask like, I don't know, they always ask if I struggle with that former generation, the old guard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I never have because I'm always asking them questions. Then if you're expressing genuine curiosity, like I can't think of a single example where it's been met with some negative response. It's every time.

[B]

Yeah. And when we're interviewing young guys, gals coming out of college, you know, how are you going to approach a crusty old superintendent out on the field? You're sure not going to tell him how to do his job. You're going to ask him questions and there's a mutual respect that takes time to be earned. But I always asking the young people that we, how are you going to approach the field, guys? You know, you come out, you got a four year degree in engineering, you know it all right. And you're going to go out and drain each crews or whatever and man, now you're going to start learning. You got a degree to get your foot in the door.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's about all it did for you.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The degree just tees you up for that first job. That's all it really does. I mean like I'm glad I, I went to engineering school because it taught me problem solving, which was really important and it's made problem solving in the real world, I think easier because it was solving really hard problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think you get that in a way from construction, any kind of construction or any kind of degree program. But yeah, the kids coming out of school, they don't know how to build anything. They don't know what's going on in jobs.

[B]

And I mean I really feel there, I don't see an arrogant, I mean they don't come across that way. They really do get it. I mean, and I guess that's who we hire, that type of person is who we want to hire that knows he doesn't know enough and he's going to just engage and we're going to do everything we can to be very intentional in getting them in the right places. You Know, it's no longer do as I say. You know, the old school superintendents and again, we want to get a guy in the field. You know, that's a really tough job, I think is for a young laborer who wants to move up. How does he approach that senior supervisor who's got a lot going on? Because, you know, years ago it used to be keep your head down and do what I tell you to do. I think those days are gone.

[A]

Yeah, I think they're, well gone. I don't, I don't think they're gone. I think it still happens all the time out in the construction industry.

[B]

We know it's not successful.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But that, that is, it's dying on the vine. And that's not what the best in class companies are doing. It's just from, from, from the top down. It's just not how those organizations are built anymore.

[B]

I think when we took technology to the field that helped the generation. The guys who used to just put their head down and, you know, get the job done. They, and our guys wanted to learn. I mean, your, your training modules that you had, our people were very interested in that. The old guys, you look at me, Aaron, I know you're thinking, yeah, Dave, that's you. But you know, they, they want to learn. I think that's the cool thing. I don't see the old. No, that's the way I've always done it. I hear that more out of office people than I do field people. They know they've got to change. They see the new technology, all the gps, all that kind of stuff. So they know if they don't get this, if they don't get on board, they're going to get run over.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a, it's a two way street. I talk to a lot of young people, it's like, hey, it's your responsibility to pull all of the knowledge out of these people's heads before they're gone. Because, I mean, how many hundreds and thousands of projects have you been involved with? You've seen a bridge built in every way possible in Ohio. And that's not in a book, that's not in a video. Yeah, that's up in your head. And it's, it's, it's. Yes, I think it's in part your responsibility to pass that along because, you know, what's your legacy if you take it all with?

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

But it's my responsibility as a young individual to pull as much out of people like you as possible because it's like, okay, cool. Yeah, I, I might know how to communicate a little bit more effectively because I've been part of a different generation. I can use technology differently. Sure. But I mean, you've again seen a bridge built in every which way, both right and wrong. What can I learn from you? Because we're still building bridges. We're not, you know, we can use all the technology we want, but at the end of the day, it's still dirt, it's still rebar, concrete. Hard work.

[B]

I think something that, that is helpful is the paces of the job are so fast now. I mean, we used to get a three year project. We used to get a three year project and now we're building them in a year. So that just exacerbates all the issues. But management, I think, has to understand we have to staff to accommodate. So there can be some mentoring happening out there. If that superintendent is spread so thin that he can't talk, if the labor is there just to be on the end of the shovel, shovel and stone, what's the system for intentionally bringing those people along? I think that's something that Miller's got a lot better at and that we understand that learning process. We got a staff for that.

[A]

Sure. Well, I think, I mean, a lot of companies aren't even staffed up for vacation.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Seriously, Meaning. Yeah, I've talked to Randy about this all the time. He's like, hey, if, okay, if you're, if you're given two weeks off, you know, and you know, most of that's happening during the summer, like you need X amount more people to even just accommodate the work that you have in this and that. It's like, I think there's still even a lot of people that are guilty for taking time off because they just aren't in the position, especially when it's busy in the, in the busy months.

[B]

And so sometimes there's, there's the ego. I want to hang on to my stuff. I don't want to let it go. I remember Randy talking about that on our, on our connect call because he said, you know, if you hire like 13 new people, do you understand to cover their vacation, you need one more?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I never thought, I mean, I hadn't thought about it exactly. So that, that's just, you know, how are we staffing? How are we being intentional? And again, getting your head around it, you can hear some things over and over and over again, but like, it doesn't really register. I don't know. Till that, till you're Caught short. And these people all of a sudden want to take vacation. Now what do you do? So, yeah, you got caught. And that. I think that's where we're at with the workforce. You know, we can hear over and over again that 40% of the workforce is going to retire in year 2031. Yeah, yeah, you can hear that and hear that. But till it hits your company, how do you make that resonate sooner? I think that's Ted Lasso. Be curious. And not just. I got, I got this. I got this. I think there was a lot of old school thinking in the industry. I got this. We got this. Yeah, we'll just, we'll figure out a way to build it. We were famous for that. So.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, the industry will figure. I stopped, I stopped talking about that statistic because it's like one, all the, all the, the, the guys running the show, they don't want to be lectured about it. Yeah, some kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And two, now everybody knows it. Like, this is not unknown. And, and, and, and so I've really just pivoted to more. Yeah, here's what the best in class companies are doing.

[B]

But, you know, I think it was interesting because after we did that connect call, somebody posted something on there. It's like it sort of hit him the, for the first. I know he's heard it before, but they've. Something was going on in their life and it finally resonated. I think leaders manager has so much going on. Maybe they heard it, maybe they didn't. And again, I think there's a different level of hearing some things when you take ownership of it. So again, we know what that means, but you take ownership of it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, and, and like that's, that's the core message now is like, here's the company's taking ownership of it. They're not blaming anybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're not playing victim. They're not, oh, poor me, all these kids, so on and so forth. All those tired talking points that you hear all the time, they're just saying, okay, cool, world's changed. Yeah, next generation's different. We still have stuff to build. Great. Just get on with it. And they're just getting on with it.

[B]

Yeah, the blame game is done.

[A]

No, and they're making, they're building better projects, they're making more money. And they're not sitting around saying, yeah, we can't find people to build. They're. Because they're, they're actively developing their workforce, which is, it's amazing to see. And it's making their businesses better. It's like I'm not sitting around saying, hey, everybody needs to make less money. You got to make less money. But this is the only way through it. It's like, no, no, no, you can do this and you can make, it's the way to making more money as well. You make your business better, you can pay people better, you can build better work, you can be more competitive because now you have bigger margins and now you can compete against some of these bigger contractors that don't have their workforce figured out. Like, this is, this is a huge opportunity. It's a giant opportunity. I don't think the industry has had an opportunity like this in a very long time.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Very long time. There has not been this, this, this, this earth shattering shift within the marketplace in I don't think anybody's lifetime within, within the industry. And this is it to me is just a monster opportunity.

[B]

Yeah. Kinsey wrote a report in 23 that said we're on the verge of one of the biggest investors infrastructure growth, products, you know, initiatives is going to happen and our workforce shortage is not prepared for it. But it's coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean there's going to be some great opportunities. Yeah, great opportunities.

[A]

No, it's coming and there's always somebody there. Like that's what I love, especially about America and the American construction industry because it's like, I think it's really one of the only places where the American dream is still alive. And it is alive and well. And there are some crafty, crafty guys out there. Crafty people that just figure it out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So if, you know, these bigger, slower players don't want to adapt, that's fine. They'll just, they'll, they'll go away. I think we've already seen a lot of that with, there's been a lot of companies sold. There's been a lot of companies dissolved and I think that's only going to continue. But then there's this whole next generation of companies coming up. There's the Miller brothers that are. All right, cool. Yeah. We've been doing it this way, but now we have to do it differently. Right, that's fine. Or you know, C.W. matthews or whatever it is that's, you know, the big players will still be there, but then there's all these smaller, like Katie Holden in Ohio as well.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Coming up saying, hey, wait a minute, there's a better way to do this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's just do it the better way.

[B]

And it seems like, man, it'd be because that KT Holden, that couple that runs that, that's just so cool. And for it to be a new company, I mean there are again, Miller's is a 80 year old company approximately. And I often equate it to the Black Pearl from Pirates of the Caribbean. We turn very slowly. Sure. We're not this military force, this little military coast guard boat that can turn on a dime. I'm often envious of that versus the old ship that can't turn. But the old ship has a lot power behind it. But we just, it just turns a little slower.

[A]

It's slower, but it has the balance sheet, the assets, the team, the, the resume which is increasingly important for these, these jobs. Like a lot of it's qualifications based nowadays. Yeah, yeah. Like for what you're.

[B]

Yeah. We talked about Intel.

[A]

Yeah. Intel is a great example. Energy is a great example. I mean even a lot of these public jobs now, they're. Hey, yeah, they're. The public jobs are bigger, but they're also wanting. Yeah, it's numbers based, but they're. What have you done in the past? Yeah, you've got a, you need to bring a resume to the table.

[B]

Yeah, very much so.

[A]

So I think there's advantages to both sides and I think both will win. I think what, what doesn't win is just like we're just gonna keep. Keep on going down the dusty trail. It hasn't let us down so far.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Let us down.

[B]

You know. Yeah, that's very true. You, you know, it's. Who moved my cheese? It's like you don't realize the cheese is stinky. Kept showing up and it's like, wow, something changed here. The cheese is diminishing. It's like, wow, a couple of those mice figured it out and they went on. The others kept showing up and like, whoa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, well.

[A]

And I think what's most devious about the past five years is there's been so much federal spending that's. And all these contractors are making more money than ever that it's fooled them into thinking that this is the way forward. This, this, like that we just can keep. Why don't we just keep going down business as usual? Because we're making more money than ever before. Like, why would we go sit here and shake things up? Why would we reinvent anything? We've never been this successful. But it's like, but that is, in my opinion, it's just like hiding a lot of the more fundamental issues going on.

[B]

Yeah. And that's. We, I think we talked a little bit in the questions maybe to talk about is, you know, younger generation, what are they experiencing when they come. They've seen nothing but boom. I mean bonuses.

[A]

I've never seen nothing but boom.

[B]

Right. So that's. And again, the old guard is there remembering the days when you had to lay off people and make those tough cuts, you know. And so again, I think, yeah, there's a, it's been good in construction. It's cyclical. I, I saw it in my 40 years, the ups and downs, the ebbs and flows. And again, I don't see it stopping right now. But again, if the lead companies can stay ahead of this thing, I mean they don't have to have a little downturn. They can just keep going if they're flexible.

[A]

Well. And I think the lead companies will then put themselves in a position where they'll be the employers of choice.

[B]

Yeah, I love that word.

[A]

If these lesser discipline companies from a workforce standpoint do have to let people go, do have to shed workforce, they can pick them up, they can say come on down. Sure, we'll take you over here. Which is also I think a huge, like a great place to be. Yeah, you, so you were in, you were the numbers guy. Did you do safety while doing numbers as well?

[B]

Kind of. I was, you know, yeah, I did a little bit of that. Again, we had a great controller there. The gentleman I worked for for Steve Everhart, he taught me a lot. I mean I was in public accounting, but I didn't know construction, I didn't know job costing, I didn't know equipment rental rates, I didn't understand utilization. So I was able to learn all those things. But then it transitioned more into safety, then risk management and then personnel and then marketing. So it's just been an evolution of new things that we felt we had to keep marketing our company. No longer could we just sit back and again, no longer can you have those EMR rates or that are out of the, you know, we didn't even understand what that was years ago. We just kept paying the workers comp. We never managed our workers comp. Yeah, you know, the payroll lady did that. Well, you know, we had to because our numbers, you know, we were not going to get pre qualed. We can't get those pre quals. They're looking for a number and some of them are pretty, pretty tough to get to.

[A]

Yeah, it's, I think that's been probably one of the bigger shifts in the construction industry over the past 20, 30 years is safety and Working that out. And it's still being worked out to this day. Going to leadership, that's a very complex leadership problem. Like, I think safety can very easily be. Here's the rules. Just follow the rules or you're fired. That's the easier way to do it. I think it's just black and white, but it's not black and white. It's culture based. It's leadership based. It's very complex. It's very gray as much as people try to make it. And some things are black and white, like wearing your seatbelt. But there's a lot of people that still don't wear their seatbelt, even though they full well know they should. Why is that? How do we. How do we work that out? I'm sure you learned plenty about communication and leadership. Taking on safety.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I try again. I ought to talk to Jason Richmond sometime about this. How you get a paving crew to wear hard hats in the middle of a cornfield and even have a shirt on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's where we started when we had paving crews and they're like. They use. I mean, I can't imagine what they said about me when I walked on a job site and we wanted them to wear hard hats. And it's 95 and they're in a cornfield. There's nothing overhead, but. But we had 100% hard hat policy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, man, you got to just sort of develop that culture. It takes 40 years to sometimes change some things, but by doing it consistently. But, yeah, I learned so much just about issues like that. And again, going out to a drainage crew, and, man, they don't have the trench box exactly around that culvert or whatever it should be. There was no way under God's green earth they could have structured it according to osha. That day they came up with something none of our people ever wanted to get anybody hurt. And so can we give a little bit of benefit of the doubt to start with now? Show me what you did. How did you protect our employees? And that was Brad Miller's number. Protect my employees. Make sure they go home the way they came to work. That was crucial.

[A]

I think benefit of the doubt is quite important when it comes to safety, because like you said, there's nobody. And I heard another leader say this recently. It's like, I've never met anybody that's intentionally, intentionally trying to get hurt. It's like, yeah, that's true. So why do we treat it like that? Why do we treat them like they're the villains. And instead look in the mirror and ask, wait a minute. Why was this crew in this position to begin with? Why was this. Yeah.

[B]

Ask that earnest question, really asking care versus saying, you know, there's going to be a penalty after that. That's how safety. You know, it's. It's the stick. It's the stick. And again, sometimes you wonder how can you make the same mistake two and three times, but yet I still think there's got to be empathy there. You know, we bring mental wellness into the whole thing. What's going on at home? How are we really looking after. I mean, safety has just grown again. Another. And I think that mental wellness is the next safety frontier. I don't know how we get our head around that when our workers show up and they got junk happening at home.

[A]

Yeah, I. I think everybody's been there. Like you're. No matter what it is, it could be a hundred different things within your life that everybody can experience. At some point will experience some kind of emotional distress. That's just how life works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And sometimes, you know, it's. It's not as extreme, quote unquote, for one person that it is the other, but it's like distress is distress, stress is stress, anxiety is anxiety. And I just cannot, based on my circumstances personally, cannot say that when I am in one of those periods. I am a hundred percent focused on what's going on around me and those around me. It's just.

[B]

No doubt.

[A]

It's not. It's just not. Not at all realistic. And so I feel like that has to be part of the conversation for safety, because I'm just. And when it's not, it's like, to me, it seems like there's a big piece missing. It's like, all right, so that guy who's getting in that loader right now, his wife just asked for divorce last week.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Where do you think his mind is?

[B]

Exactly? Exactly.

[A]

At least my mind. For me, my mind's not within the loader. My mind is elsewhere, and I can't do anything about that.

[B]

And that was one of Brad Miller's greatest qualities, was caring for his people. And they all knew that. You talk about open doors, but his was open to the guy who was having that struggle. If it was the laborer, the mechanic. Those people knew that. And I'll say the supervisors knew it, that they could send somebody if they had to, and Brad Miller would take care of them. And again, when we go back to recruiting into the field, how do you become the employer of choice. You want that verbiage out there. And when you're talking to parents about getting their kids into our industry, they want to know you're going to care for their kid. You know, we're at work more than we are at home many times. So that, that side of empathy and I don't know, Aaron, your thoughts on, you know, that wasn't our industry's culture years ago. You know, a little tlc, a little tender loving. No. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and get back to work. So that's something I think we had to work on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's a work in progress. It's going to be a long work in progress, I think for this world. Because going back to that, you, you're still in a production based world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You still gotta get the job done. And you're, you know, you're hourly as a, as a loader, operator, laborer, whatever you are. So if you're not working, you're not making money. If you're not there, you're letting your crew down. You know, you've got these production numbers to meet. And as a, as a, as a crew leader, I can't have my loader operator out today because we've got to get this, run a pipe in or so that we can get the paving crew in here next week. And the project manager is, we're already behind. And so they've been, they've been on me and I don't have time for this right now. And it's so easy to see how that's just swept right under the rug. It's. You can go down that path so easily, so fast. But then again, that's where you end up with. It's just like, you don't see it up front, but you see it on the back end. It erodes everything over time. So there's not that immediate like construction. We're really good at solving for things we can see and solving for that immediate because that's just the world we live in. Like if you pour concrete, you see the concrete, you see what you did that day, you get that satisfaction. You can measure it, it's right there, you can touch it. And so we're really good at day to day, week to week, what we can see, but the stuff we can't see, that's eroding the stuff we can see lot harder.

[B]

Well, we have preventing maintenance programs for all our equipment. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the hour. We're gonna make sure we do this because we know what happens if we don't? For people that has. I feel that's been lacking in the industry, you know, the quality of life, you know. You know, we. If Dale and Floyd Miller thought we were giving superintendents summer vacations, they would roll over in their graves.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That was never.

[A]

No summer's done to work.

[B]

Exactly. And so again and again, I saw a transition between. And the third. And that's a priority for Brad. He understands the quality of life issue. But those other guys, they were coming out of the depression. It was like it's all hands on deck 247 almost. But then they didn't see the results on the people, the families. And again, we talked last night, these kids that were raised underneath that generation of their dads working moms working 80 hours a week, they're never home for anything. Like, why would I want a piece of this?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. So any. I think it's something we'll have to work on in the industry.

[A]

Well, but, but even that, like the agreement was, the unwritten agreement was that, listen, I'm going to go work like mad over the summer, but I get the winner off. Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore.

[B]

Change. You're exactly right.

[A]

Everybody's working all. And it's happened within like the past five to 10 years. I mean, you used to even like five years ago, I feel like.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Everybody would. You'd stop during the winter. And now it's like, nope, there's. There's dirt to move. There's pipe delay. We've got to. We're even going to maybe try to pave here. There. I mean, the work happening just during the winter season is crazy. So you don't get that. You don't even get that break anymore. It's just work all year, which some people enjoy, I think, like, especially. I mean, I heard a lot of people not wanting to get laid off in the winter because, like, no, I want to work. I'm going to go crazy with three months at home. But I feel like that was the old unspoken way of doing business and now it's just work all the time.

[B]

But I think if management is educated, they know their employees cannot sustain that. That may be what the employee wants, but if I really care for you, I'm going to help you. Please understand this. And again, yeah, we got those. Our mechanics, they love to burn the hours. You know, we're. But man, what's happening when they're that tired and, you know, they're working maybe alone on a piece of equipment, you know, management has to have some systems to help protect the employees.

[A]

Yeah, we're a little different. We're not a construction company, so we have more flexibility. But we've given everybody two weeks off during the holidays since we started. Yeah, it's one of the best things we do. And it's on top of time off that people have is additional time off. The whole company shuts. A few people have to work here or there based on. But we make those accommodations now, what we have going on. But the one thing I hear at the end of the two weeks every single year is, I had no idea how much I needed that. I had no idea. And we've like, built in a reset for people in that one year period because we're busy like everybody else, and we. Because everybody's off. It gives people permission to actually get away and take the time off without feeling guilty, which is another big problem. It's been one of the best things from a business standpoint.

[B]

We do. Yeah. And Aaron, do you think your employees are more engaged? Because we talk a lot about engagement today, you know, and again, does that help the engagement so you're even more productive afterwards? Because it's something we measure and we look at engagement scores. And again, I think that's one of the factors. They can come back and be more productive. We can make more money during this time. We don't have to work quite. We got to work smarter, not harder. That's a great cliche, you know, whatever. But I just wonder the return on investment on those days off to the. What. Because that's what the accountant's going to.

[A]

Want to hear from, you know, the returns there. But it's one of those things. It's hard to measure. And again, we don't. We struggle with stuff we can't measure exactly. But. But you can feel it. You can measure it. You can tell. And I always, I always preface it too, when we get to the beginning of December, like, listen, this time off, this is conditional. This is not something we're just indefinitely going to do just because it's earned. It's conditional. You got to run into this, break, empty the tank going into it. Take your two weeks off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want you to think about what the heck's going on here. And then coming out of it, we better be running. No, oh, you know, Monday time, you know, coming back like, oh, how was. How was things going? This and that, and kind of roll into it like, no, no, no. Monday, first thing, we are going. And I would say January is our Best month consistently. Like, we, we just. We just haul in January because you. Everybody did just get that huge chunk of time off. And then for me, as a leader, I'm not off, quote, unquote, I'm still working because I love to work. And people are like, oh, you should take time off. All right. Kick rocks. I don't want to. But for me, it then allows me to detach and do some of the leadership stuff that I've been putting off because I've been so busy in the day to day. It allows me to reflect. It allows me to write, clean up some things, tidy some things up, declutter to set myself up better for January. Like, it's. It's a blessing from a leadership standpoint, too, because it's like now I'm not. I'm not in meetings. I'm not guilty. I'm missing out on stuff over here. I can just. Yeah, I can just do what I need to do, which is great.

[B]

And that's probably the first three months since I've been retired. I'm like, man, it's just nice to be unhooked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, I. I think my wife was worried. I think we enjoy each other. We are enjoying each other. It is really fun, Aaron, I have to tell you that.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

And it's like. Because I thought I was going to be one of those guys. Just because you run so hard all the time, you never really find out what it's like to be unplugged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how enjoyable different things can be. And again, you're young like you. You can come back into your business and just be energized all over again. I think that's. That detaching that Jocko talks about is just huge.

[A]

It's a really big deal.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I tried to. I try to do it through the year, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I, like, even this weekend I was in Phoenix and even, you know, oftentimes, like, getting, like a week off is a little unrealistic. But even if you take a morning to just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or I'll even have a. Or the other. The other night I rewarded myself with a cookie because I broke my record. There's Camelback Mountain in the middle of the middle of Phoenix.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I climb it every morning when I'm there. Broke my record. So I'm like, pr. You get a cookie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was this little thing where, for me, this is what works well. I went and got a cookie on my own, and I sat and I just had my Cookie. My phone was away. I wasn't doing something. I just sat and thought and reflected and had a cookie. And it was like 15 minutes. But even that 15 minutes is some of the most valuable time I'll spend. And just to get away from, from just the noise, what the heck's going on. Just like observe the world around me. Take it in, think about some things. Just take a deep breath. That, oh, it's so nice.

[B]

Yeah. And when you come back, you are more focused. I think I answered my own question. They're more focused when they come back. They're more engaged. And again, I just think that's just vital for quality of life overall. And even, you know Mark Miller that you guys had on with Jason and those guys, he talked about KPIs and in his book, I think we need to have KPIs for our personal lives.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

When's the last time I ate a cookie?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and because you know how good it is for you, it's like, well, track it if it's important to you or you know what will happen, it will slowly slip away and we won't measure whether I did it or. I mean, it's. Did I dream? Die? It's pretty simple. No different than your daily quiet times, your spiritual life. Are you tracking it all? Well, because if you tracked it, then you might hold yourself accountable. And that's a good thing.

[A]

Yeah. And I think the question is, from a business standpoint, it's like, how do you do that for your people? And again, construction industry has been great at building stuff. We're really good at building stuff. But then you go look at the personal lives of people and it's oftentimes a disaster. Not saying that's not other industries as well. It's every industry. It's all over the place. But I mean, everybody, everybody here can relate to alcoholism, to drug abuse, to divorce, to dysfunctional family relationships between parents and children or siblings or your parents. You can go down suicide. Just physical, physical health and wellness. Like you, you just walk onto a job sites like, does everybody look healthy? Yeah, no, no, not, not, not really. And it's like smoking, for example. It's. I don't see it all that much in day to day life on job sites. You bet your ass. I'm seeing it on every job site. It's just, and I'm not criticizing any of it. I'm just saying like that that's part of the success of the overall industry. Like, that's part of the industry's brand that, you know, I asked people, when I talk to, it's like, why do people think construction is second rate? It often looks second rate. Like, we've branded ourselves as second rate. Like, we can sit here and blame people all day long, but it's like it oftentimes just doesn't look that great. Everything looks kind of like a mess. People's lives are kind of a mess a lot of times. And it's similar to, like, the military, too. I mean, they. They wind these people up, they train these people to do a job, and then, you know, when it comes to the end of their service, it's just like they just turn them loose into civilian life with no support, with no tools, with no training, with no here's how to go about things, so on and so forth. And it's in, in a lot of ways, construction is similar. It's like we're gonna wind all these, especially these younger kids up. We're gonna work them like crazy. We're gonna pay them a ton of money. Ton of money. Way more than most people their age are making.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then we're not gonna teach them how to use that money effectively, how their retirement works, how, you know, how the market works, how to save, how to mortgage. We're not gonna give them any of that because they got that from. They should get that from their parents. It's like they're not getting that from their parents.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

They're not getting it from school, they're not getting it from their coworkers.

[B]

Yep. Now, you know, it's interesting, I shared with you about the young man I met, Roy Hall, Ohio State Buckeye football player, went on to play for the Colts. And he said he never knew anything about managing his finances till he got to the pros. They never. He didn't know what a 401k was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, that's. And again, Roy has talked to us about how we can help the inner city kids understand how to get a career in construction, what's involved. But he said, you need to understand. You want to help educate them on, on these, on these. What happens when you get this much money? And so again, there's just so much that, you know, HR gets a bad term behind it. I like, we switched ours to people and culture to have that built in. How are we going to help people with finances? Will we offer a Dave Ramsey course or something to help them, give them some clue or just keep throwing money? Are they going to go out and drink it away? That's the old school Mind how are we going to help them? Again, it's a holistic family process that I think makes the job more enjoyable even when you go there. Brad Miller and I often said at the end it's just not about building bridges anymore. You know, it's, it's all the people issues that come, all they bring with them.

[A]

Yeah. So yeah, yeah. But I think that's also the opportunity too. It's like every construction company has such a beautiful opportunity not just to improve the community with the infrastructure it creates and maintains, but with the people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It goes and puts out into that community. It's like every one of those people working at that company and it's with our company too. And I've gone through seasons where I'm better at it than other seasons. But every one of those people working for you is an opportunity to make the world better, make their world better. And if you make them and their world better, they go out and make their, you know, those around them better. And you can create this massive opportunity, this massive impact through the people within your organization far beyond the infrastructure. Whatever your product is.

[B]

Yeah, the infrastructure. I believe someday is all going to be gone and all we're going to be left with is the people and we're going to take to heaven with us.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so yeah, it's the people. I mean, and again, I've always appreciated the Miller family. I think they really did put their people first. It's nice being in a family owned business. I've never been a part of big corporate culture, understanding all that. So again there's just the people have always been important. They have to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, I think, you know, I hope maybe we'll talk a little bit today about AI and empathy and engagement. How does that all, you know, what's, what's that going to, how's that, how does that help us or hurt us when we are working with people, AI, what, what have you. I'm curious. I want to learn about this because I just had a discussion with some people, you know, what's the role of AI, Empathy with people and then their engagement in the, in the business. So what thoughts there at all?

[A]

AI is like a giant can of worms and there are so many different opinions on it ranging from this is going to be the greatest thing to this is going to destroy all of humanity. Yeah. And everything in between. Like from like, yeah, we're creating a digital God to yeah, this is, this will end humanity at some point with a very high probability.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm more Optimistic. I'm like, this is a great, I think this is, it's a, it's going to be a great tool in the construction world. There's a lot of information, there's a lot of data. Like even estimating, for example.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And you're, you're a numbers guy. Just the amount of data every one of those projects is throwing off is immense. You know, what did we actually, all right, we bid the project for X, we did it for Y. What happened in between? What can we learn from that information and how can we work it into future bids? And at this point it's been, I would say it's been rudimentary. Like it's still a lot of guessing and estimating. But you can now take all of that information and analyze it far more effectively to then incorporate it into whatever's coming. Or specifications is another one. It's like Ohio dot specifications. I don't know how many pages exactly within that. And then you go to Indiana and it's totally different. You go to Michigan, totally different. Even just empowering the people building the projects with those, those specifications, that information specifically tailored to the task they're doing that day. Like, I think there's big opportunity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think what people are also missing is that no matter where this goes, we're still, unless it ends, humanity. Like that's okay. If there's humanity involved, humans will still need food, water, shelter. That doesn't go away.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And infrastructure facilitates food, water, shelter. So as long as there's humans, there'll be a need for, for infrastructure. If there's a need for infrastructure, there's a need for people building infrastructure. And I don't see automated construction equipment building bridges in my lifetime.

[B]

Yeah. That was interesting when we went to Tucson and I out to Caterpillar's training site or whatever they call that. And there's this dozer running itself out in the middle of a field, you know, and the operators in Illinois, you know, again. So where, where is that in the future? You know, how do you, how do you promote your industry, recruit people into that? And again, I'm just curious, you know, what, what is the timeline, do you think, when we. I mean, I know there's some applications safety wise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, sending a skid steer into a hot zone, whatever, there are places for it. I just wonder, you know, where that artificial intelligence, I think, I think it's a tool.

[A]

It's like gps. I think it makes certain things more productive, safer, et cetera.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also think it's very tone deaf for OEMs to sit here and say, this is the solution to workforce, your workforce challenge. Like, I've. And I've seen that. I'll go to, I go to Baumo in a few weeks, I'll see it a hundred times over there, every trade show. And it's just like I'm looking around, I'm like, you guys, you should get out to a job site like, you clearly don't understand, like this. It's almost disrespectful for you to say something like that to all the people doing the work, using your equipment. Like, it's like this. It's a tool. It's a great tool for specific applications.

[B]

Well, it's almost like we talked about safety. You still have to go to the job site. You got the OSHA reg with you, and that's what AI is going, you know. But do you understand what's happening out here?

[A]

Sure. Yes.

[B]

And so it's very much, I think the same thing that we. Yeah, we can't be lulled to sleep by it.

[A]

No. And you know as well as anybody, it's work. This is not a black and white world. And it's like, I see it just in a. All these discussions. It's just so black and white. Like, workforce. It's so black and white. Technology, so black and white. AI, automation, whatever. It's like the reason why, like part of the reason why this world is so phenomenal is because it's so gray. Every project is different, every soil condition is different. Every, every stick of pipe is different. Every, you know, everything is different about it. That's why it's so phenomenal, because we're not in a factory, we're not in a controlled environment, we're not on a computer. We're building stuff. And that's why, that's one of the things that was most appealing to me is like, it's not perfect. It's sometimes hot, it's sometimes cold, it's sometimes wet. You've got traffic where you don't want traffic. Sometimes you've got crazy closure schedules. So you're working all Friday night, Saturday night. You know, you've. But that's what makes it so compelling.

[B]

It is, it is.

[A]

And so to sterilize that to one, think we can sterilize? That is crazy. But two, to sterilize that is removing one of the, I think most beautiful things about this world is that it's, it's just not perfect.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So that's my two cents yeah. Whatever it's worth.

[B]

Yeah. For those thoughts.

[A]

But. But I like. And I'm not the most knowledgeable about autonomous equipment, remote equipment, but I've seen more applications. I've seen used more than most people in real world applications. I've been to quite a few autonomous operations now. Fully autonomous mines. It's incredible. It is so spectacular. And the feedback is very positive. I ask all the operators and people there, what do you think about all this? Very positive. I have not heard a single, like, truly negative thing from the people working around it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it does make things better for them. More effective, makes the operation just better. But you can only do that in so many places.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. When I. When we used to mine coal in Kentucky, I. I go down there and I'd hear these good old boys and they were moving thousands of tons of overburden from point A to B and moving it the minimum amount of time to get down to that seam of coal. I don't see how. It's just such an art almost. Again, it's gray and it's an art, really, how we build things sometimes.

[A]

It totally is. Yeah. And you're even like a bridge. You're building to plans and specifications, but there's not an instruction manual. It's not a LEGO set. You don't follow step one through 100 and there you go, you've got your bridge.

[B]

Because of all those conditions you just talked about. That's happening every day now. You have a new crew, you have different skill sets. So that's what I think we have to keep promoting in our industry to challenge young people. I think you mentioned the Marines are the only group meeting their recruit because they challenge people and they say this is what it's going to be. I think we're sometimes afraid to put that out there because everybody's gotten a trophy. And again, I just think the future for construction is very bright and how we approach it and how sense of pride and ownership just can make great careers for the next generation.

[A]

Yeah, it's. But this is where to that point, like, the message that this is a place for everybody is very corrosive.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's not for everybody. This is, this is not a world for everybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's like any other career. Like nursing's not for everybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Being a chef not for everybody. Like, it's, it's suited for specific people. And in construction, you do, you do need to have this degree of grit and craziness, for lack of better term, it's pretty wild. This stuff that you have to put up with and do. And it's really not for everybody but those it's for. There's nothing better. There's nothing that even gets close to it.

[B]

You can't be easily discouraged. I think, you know, you got to be. I think my mind, I was always maybe more the plow horse. Just get through it. I mean we saw many different issues. Whether it was union strikes or you know, employees walking out because we took away their health. You know, just various things. You can't get discouraged. Adversity is going to happen. And I can. I think that's a wish. I think we can train on that too. Understanding adversity, you know, what's Jocko say when something bad happens? He goes good.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That video is just crazy. What's your mindset when something bad happens? Are you going to roll over? And. And again, I think that's the thing that separates the construction industry.

[A]

Yeah, I think so too. Or even it rains for a week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When it's supposed to be dry, it's middle of summer, you're supposed to be moving your dirt and it rains for a week. It's like, well, we could get all worked up about it or we can just. It's out of our hands. We'll figure it out.

[B]

That's what I saw in Dean Miller. His grandpa or his dad and uncle. They were pretty well moving on. But you never knew how things were going with the company with Dean walking around the office still encouraging. Brad's the same way. You know, what kind of leader are you? What do you, what aura do you give off when it's a bad day? You know, if you're this emotional, throwing stuff, swearing, you know, just taking heads again, I just think that's not a very enjoyable job to start with. But again, I think how are you leading your people? And again, we had that at the Millers.

[A]

We really did well, like what are you putting out there? I've seen some companies and leaders, it's like they've got a storm cloud following them around and they subscribe to that. They have a stormcloud following them around. And that man, I just always get sued or I, you know, we always, you know, this always happens or that always happens or oh, I always get screwed by my people or whatever it is and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And you see them no doubt like almost subscribe to this reality and almost create this reality for themselves. And it's just, it's just the saddest thing to Watch. Because it's. It's just a terrible burden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you see other people, it's like, with that good mentality, like, all right, yeah, this didn't work out as planned. What's next? Yeah, we're going to figure this out. And miraculously, a lot of good things happen to those companies. Like, they're not the ones engaged in lawsuits all the time. They're the ones making money. They're the ones with. Without massive turnover problems, without their people screwing them. It's like.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It starts at the top. It starts with whatever that leader is putting out from an energy standpoint. And I'm talking about this now because I'm. I'm thinking about this a lot. Like, over the past few years, I have not put out the best energy. I have not been my best self because I've been bogged down, especially with just our financial situation over the past few years. Just been this terrible burden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you. You let it become a burden, and you let it mute you as an individual, and it. And then it mutes the organization. It mutes the team. It's like. And now that I'm realizing I did that or was in that world, it's like, damn it, man. I was leaving a lot on the table, but now it's motivation to be like, all right, cool, let's not go back there. Let's not go back.

[B]

Yeah, let's.

[A]

Let's pour everything I can in. Because it starts. It starts with me in a lot of ways. And so I need to show up how I want the organization to show up, or else we're just not going to get there.

[B]

Yep. And think about the people out in the field that we're bringing along. The new foreman. What's he watching from his direct supervisor, the superintendent, over the job? You know, the days of yelling and screaming again, but it's rain for a week. You know, you can't get the paperwork you need to get this pipe in the ground. You know, how does that leader. How does that superintendent lead that crew? And what are those young foremen seeing? And when do we give the young foreman a chance to experience that on their own before they can lose their tails on everything? You know, we. We talk about that, too. Like, hey, you got to give them a chance, you know? And again, what's that look like? I think the leader has to be giving that away. He can't be down in the weeds every day. And I think we helped our superintendents understand their role. We need what's up in their head and watch these young guys and gals, you know, perform as format. When the pressure's on. Yeah, anybody can do it. When anybody's cheering for you. But, you know, when the pressure's on and like you mentioned the rain, the inspector shuts you down, how are you going to respond? And again, how's the labors view that? How do your operators view that? So, yeah, it's contagious.

[A]

You can. You can tell pretty quickly where that super or PM is at just by how exasperated they are.

[B]

Oh, no doubt.

[A]

Or how much their phones ringing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You can tell. I see it all the time. I mean, you see guys, they're. You know, there's this one guy I'm thinking of. Massive project. Running this massive project. He'd just drive me around. Cool as a cucumber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Monster job. One of the biggest. One of the biggest in this entire region of the United States. Cool as a cucumber.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Nothing going on. We're good. Yeah. We've got all the time in the world. We're good. And then you've got other folks that I can think of that are just bouncing off walls, left and right phones going off the hook, stressed out. Hey, we've got a. Sorry, I need to go over here real quick. And I get. I. There's. There's times for that. Sometimes they're really. Everything is on fire. But there's also people that just like. That's the constant state of affairs. And when I. When I meet somebody or when I even. An operation in general, you can look at an operation. Some are chaotic.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Some are just like. There's not a single bit of drama anywhere. It's just like a Swiss watch. They're just doing the work. And there's, you know, no one's hurried, no one's yelling, no one's doing what they shouldn't be doing. They're just one after another. After, like, we went to, like, Hitachi a few weeks ago, you go to the factory and you think a factory is going to be chaotic with just all this stuff going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There wasn't an ounce of chaos anywhere to be found in that factory. Everybody was moving very deliberately. Everybody knew what they needed to do. There wasn't a lot of talking going on. There wasn't a lot. You know, I didn't know who the boss was. I didn't know who was in charge. Everybody was just doing their job. And that's a controlled environment. Japanese manufacturing, which is like, there's nothing better than that.

[B]

Pretty much, yeah.

[A]

But it was just a good reminder, like, oh, this is what excellence looks like. There's no drama to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's just. It's just interesting to see the difference.

[B]

And we can learn from manufacturing. We often want to say, well, our days go to heck and hell in a handbasket in a hurry. Yeah. But there's controlled chaos. I mean, Ardo and our job, because they are so unique, man. You walk out and you got the superintendent that's just humming along and he can take time for you. I think that's when, you know the guy's got his crap together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's got time to talk. Even when our president comes out, you know, when Brad goes out to. He's got time to Talk. Not getting 20 phone calls. His crew is doing their jobs. And even for that guy to be able to take a vacation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Lets that newbie move up and now experience all those things. So again, it's really healthy. It's really healthy. But, yeah, you can tell when the crews are really hungry. I love that manufacturing idea. That's like, can a construction site be that way too? Nothing out of place. I mean, within our. Yes, exactly. They can.

[A]

I've seen it.

[B]

We sometimes don't. People that don't want to be accountable. You can't. You can't do baloney.

[A]

No, I've seen it so many times. Yeah. I think, like, yeah, if the super or somebody can take time with you, that's a huge indicator that, all right, this is. Everything's under control here. It's always very impressive if somebody can take a lot of time with us. I really. I always appreciate that because. Yeah, that means.

[B]

And I think it helps if you have a good. I think it comes back to management. What systems have you put in place? Does he have a support system above him? The equipment group, the office group project?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He understands his role in the team. He doesn't take on more than he should. But again, I think sometimes management skinnies the system and tries to skimp on it. It's like, man, you just get what you pay for.

[A]

Sure. Well, and that's a great point, too. Behind every great super is a great organization.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a lot of support behind that individual. They have the equipment they need, they. Their bills are paid. They've got their subs where they need their subs to be permit squared away. Traffic control, you know, whatever it is. There's a huge infrastructure behind that.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That has to be squared away. People always ask, like, when I'm traveling, are you stressed out? It's like, no, we've got a world class team.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and, and they are better than me at everything we do. But what I'm doing right now, you know, traveling and doing the storytelling I'm doing, this is what I'm best at within the organization. I let everybody else do what they're best at within the organization. I'm not getting phone calls. I'm not stressing about it. I want to know what's going on just because I'm curious. Like, I'm just. I love hearing about what the heck's going on back home, but I wouldn't be able to go travel and do what I do if I didn't have the great leadership team and then great team behind that great leadership team doing what they're doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just wouldn't work.

[B]

And you know, it's. I think this was never. Some people enjoy creating in the chaos, just keeping things in turmoil.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Versus having the team delegating it and letting them doing their jobs, you know. No, I always gotta keep my hands on it, micromanage it. So you see those leadership styles. And again, I just think it speaks to how those jobs are run. And again, man, I just. We had a great team at Miller's and again, the people that worked for me just with HR and marketing and safety and it, man, it's just like, let me help you. What resource do you need? That's what I am here to do. Get you the resource.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And stay out of the way.

[B]

Stay out of the way. Dave.

[A]

Don't screw it up. Yeah. I think it can, like the constant turmoil can work, but I've seen it enough where it's like, it'll be, you know, an older guy that's been in that turmoil. Like the turmoil almost gives them a sense of importance. Like the organization needs them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which, which, which is interesting from the outside.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then they're oftentimes complaining about the turmoil. But it's like, but, but you're the architect of the turmoil. Like it's. At the end of the day, you're the leader here.

[B]

It's.

[A]

There's no one else to blame. Like this is. And so either love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or do something about it. Like the middle ground of complaining is like that, that doesn't, that doesn't do anybody any good. Starting with you.

[B]

Yeah. Screen of ownership.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But again, it's easier said than done.

[B]

Yep. Very much so.

[A]

But it's interesting with extreme ownership, once you rewire your brain to take ownership and Solve problems. It's interesting to see when people don't do it, it's like, served up on a platter for them. I saw this not too long ago. It's like it's on a platter right here. Just all you have to do is just reach out and grab it, and they don't grab it. And it's like. It was interesting for me to watch in real time, like, all right, here's how I would react right now. Here's one through three. One. I, you know, take ownership.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

I really screwed this thing up here. And then I'd follow the course and to see it go in a different way, it's like. That's interesting. Like in. In, in. Yeah, it was. It was.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

When you see it in a great way, it's interesting. And when you see it not happen. Yeah, it's also quite interesting.

[B]

Yeah. You know, you have. You will have people that will not buy into your culture, and they're the ones that will. You will keep laying it out there for. You're hoping. And at some point, you have to make a decision, you know, whether they. Whoops. Whether they can or can't. And. But, boy, two or three times you see it and they don't want it. They don't want to change. They don't want to take that ownership. It's always going to be this way, man. You have to move on. You have to make a decision. And that's hard to do in the people side of things, especially in the family business. We are very slow to make those changes. But again, it drags down the whole team if you don't. And again, that chaos, it can work for a while, but the next generation will probably be the same way then. Is that what you want in your culture? So you have to make those changes. That's hard.

[A]

Yeah. And you tell yourself, well, you know, maybe. Maybe just a little bit more time. They'll finally get it. They'll finally get it. No, just a little bit more. Just a little bit more.

[B]

And it's good to help. I think we got better at it with annual reviews. You know, we were better at giving good dialogue every year, honest dialogue, and then letting that manager make those decisions. So I'm like, hey, you got to let him go.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

No, he's your guy. Have you. Have you given him the benefit of the doubt or, again, you've given him every opportunity. You've explained the expectations. It's clear. And many times we had fallen down, so it's like, no, we're not let you have not done your job as a manager.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And helping them, I mean I think that's a leadership thing that can be trained and learned.

[A]

It can. And I've had some situations over the past few years where it's like you, I could just step in and say we're letting this person go. It's. The decision's been made, it's done, it's out of your hands. And you'd argue that's maybe the better way to do it for the sake of the team and that individual. It's just faster, less suffering. Let's just get on with it. But you almost have to, especially with young leaders because I've had to go through this and you have to let others go through it. You have to let them struggle with it and you have to let them suffer a little bit with the, the process of it and, and let them, you've got to, you've got to nurse it. But let them come to the conclusion themselves. Let them own the decision. Let them let that person go. If, especially if they haven't let anybody go before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's amazing after the fact, it's a terrible process. It's like the worst thing in business by a mile. But after the fact, that young leader, you can see them then take hiring and feedback and performance so much more seriously when they have to go through that terrible experience themselves.

[B]

And I don't think that's a skill set that's trained in college.

[A]

No.

[B]

Especially in engineering. Again and again I can see where we, we finally, we got better at putting that, pushing that ownership down a few levels. You know, you could have a group but pushing it down and letting those guys struggle. You know what? They do a lot better job the next time the employee comes in. Because I don't want to be in this situation again because of what I could have changed. So I can see a couple guys, they're like. And Dale Carnegie. That book, those type of things works immensely with those type of things. Yeah. Very good.

[A]

How you know, Mellow Brothers, hundreds of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people spread out across a pretty good sized area of many job sites, etc. How do you work? Like, you know, you read Extreme Ownership, you're like, wow, this makes perfect sense. I love this. I want to work this through the organization. How do you do that? Because going from A to B, that's a lot.

[B]

Yeah. We definitely didn't have a perfect system, that's for sure. But again, I think we just needed to start by being More consistent. I maybe was famous for doing a flavor of the month and it would wear off. And you have to be committed to doing it and following through on it. And again you get. We had a management team and again they all bought into it. Now again, they don't have time to look at, but somebody's got to drive it. And again, I think I had the opportunity to do that. So I think just repetitiveness has to be there. The people have to know this is not a flavor of the month. And so I think when I was ending up, we had been in extreme ownership for probably three years doing monthly zoom calls where our field people would call in, we'd have a morning and an afternoon time. And we were just pretty high level with our superintendents that were involved. And again, putting resources in their hand. No different than with mental wellness. We had to have a consistent message. This is not just the safety flavor of the month. And that's Brad Miller saying, I want this to be a priority. Somebody, the guy at the top has to believe a guy or gal, you know, they. You got to know you have their backing. And the employees need to know that because they can tell in a hurry if this is Lurscher's flavor of the month or Brad Miller said, I want this done. And so that's huge. I think technology helped us get it out there. I think what you guys are doing with your training makes a lot of sense where we all have iPads, phones in our hands. So you can get it out. You can get that two to three minute message. It doesn't have to be that long. But again, even going back to your core values, you know, I just remember like they were words on the wall. You have to make them be more than words on a wall.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Stream ownership more than a book in the corner book that we handed out at the annual superintendents meeting. You know, and I think that's. And that's hard to do because still got to build those bridges, you know, do all those jobs, fix those pieces of equipment. And so. But I think repetitiveness is huge.

[A]

And I think that's a misconception with where some of the industry's gone is pulling the company in for a meeting is great. That's a great thing to do. I think that's a phenomenal thing to do. That's. That's money well spent. But that's not training.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You cannot do it once a year. It just doesn't work. It doesn't math for anybody. I don't. Anybody in that room is not going to absorb everything going on. It's just like. What I've been thinking about a lot is like forging, especially a sword. You just beat it. You beat it. The more you beat it, the harder the steel becomes. That's an essential part of the process. And then you got to heat it and cool it. But it's just repetitive. And the more time and more energy you put into that repetitive process, the better the product you get.

[B]

And again, when you're. When you're beating them, they have to understand why you are. What's the why behind this? And again, they got to have some victories in the midst of that with extreme ownership. Again, when you see the value come out and when it's benefited them. I can hear one of our young project managers needing to discipline somebody, and we had just pounded the core values for two years. Pounded them, pounded them, pounded. And he called upon our core values. When he had to discipline somebody and let him go, he's just like. And we were all like, yes, that's why you do it. Because it was such a part of his DNA. This is what Brad Miller wants. These are our core values. You did not perform those versus some squirrely excuse. It was easy. And this kid, articulate kid. Sorry, Aaron. This young man, he articulated that the discipline wasn't his boss above him, but it had been pounded. But he understood the why. And now it became even more important. And I actually think the employee that received the discipline appreciated it, because he's like, no, this is the expectation. You have a right to expect that out of me. And I fell down.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, that repetitiveness. But again, you got to engage the employee's heart. That's a Mark Miller from Chick Fil A. You got to get their heart. And when we're talking about core values, you give in that training those two to three minutes. And I tell you, one of the best learning places is when they take this stuff home and do it at home with their spouses. And again, I don't think I should act any different than I do at home or at work. It's all the same. And it really. And again, the extreme ownership people are doing one for home. That is one of the best ones they've done. It's amazing. You ought to hear them talk about loading the dishwasher, giving your kids the opportunity to load the dish. Now, are you going to do it for them? They won't do it the way that you would. It's just an amazing thing. But applying these things, and then when the Rubber hit the road. In that discipline situation, that employee could recall the employee values, the employee that received it, understood it. There was like, I understand the why, why you're having this talk with me.

[A]

Over that few year period. How did you, how did you. What was the process of getting those values into the organization?

[B]

The boss would talk about it, the top guy, and he believed in it. And again, he had written them years before. They were still just words on a wall. And so, you know, you put the stuff up in the offices, you put it out in the pickup trucks again. That's the place we had, that's where we really needed to go is in the pickup trucks with it. So they had it in front of them, they could see it, they could call upon it. One per month was talked about, it was reinforced. Less is more. Many times you don't have to give them so much, you don't have to read the book. But do you understand why this core value of trust, teamwork, all those things are important. Personalize it, engage the heart. Then they can talk about it again. I think those, our toolbox talks years ago were probably awful. You know, doing a read back. When I say trust, when I say teamwork to a crew, are you articulating in a way that you think the crew even thinks you believe it? Superintendent again, you know, when they don't again. Our people all knew, the management team all wanted the core values talked about. We all wanted extreme ownership. We believed in it. And so. And that doesn't happen overnight with the Black Pearl. You know, you just.

[A]

Yeah, no, it does, it does. But I think it's starting at the top is essential. Yeah, I. In construction, communication is not always the best. And I think a lot of people at the top aren't always the best communicators. They're great at building stuff and they could be, they could have a thousand person company. But they're leaving so much on the table. If they can't effectively communicate, that doesn't need, that doesn't mean they need to be a great orator. They need to be on the stump, you know, out at the, on the, standing on the tailgate of the pickup truck, out on the job site. We're, you know, this is where we're going and like rallying the troops. But they need to effectively express their ideas, thoughts, vision for where the business is going to that company in some fashion. It could be a video message, recorded message, it could be writing. But the more genuine it is, the better. Yeah, I've seen a lot of people they're especially, this is corporate America. They love very well crafted statements. They love reading off teleprompters. I think it does them an enormous disservice, honestly. Yeah, I think it makes it. Whatever they're saying, it just, at least I'm like, I just kind of check out. But that's where it all begins from. They have. And, and, and that, like, that's one of the great things about this podcast, honestly, is I've gotten a lot of people on here, they've never been on a podcast before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's like, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you, you, like most everybody has never been on a podcast before that, that comes on to this one. And, but that, but that's, that's what's so incredible about it. It's like you have all these great things you believe in and, and, and, and have worked through this organization, like, let's get it out to other people and let's help these other leaders express themselves. And my hope is, especially for these leaders still leading these companies, my hope is that their company listens to these episodes and their company then gets more information on who the heck's leading the company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's one of the most valuable things I could know, no matter where I'm at within that business is like, hey, where are we going? What's going on here? Who leads this place? Like, all right, I'm on the ship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I, I'm not the captain. I'm not even up. I'm not even, I don't even know where the captain is. Like, I have no control over where we're going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So where are we going? I'll do my part, but I want to know where the heck we're going.

[B]

You know, that's where our company was. We just created in the past three years probably a five year strategic plan, a, an intentional process. And we sat down for months and worked on that because our people were asking, where are we going? What do you want me to do? Because our company was growing and so what does that look like? And again, that was such a healthy process. And then for us as leaders to get up and articulate that, and even our boss, Brad Miller, and our people wanted to know, brad, is this what you really want? And if it is, then they'll run through a wall for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he needed to convey, this is my strategic plan for our business. And again, he treats us like family. So again. And he's, he's always like, it's the team, the team, the team. But to have them talk about that and that strategic goal was that was hard work establishing that. And again, they were. They will rework it. We never had that before. You know, it's just like in our people, as we were growing, were asking for it and they needed to hear it communicated. And again, how do you get this stuff out? Again, I love. It's hard for me to imagine that the Navy SEALs do as much role playing as Jocko and Leif do. If you see them talk, they go through situations and they talk about they role play everything. I'm like, what a good idea. And we've only dabbled in that. But that's a very healthy way to run a toolbox. Talk is role playing it.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

And what a great idea, Mike. Dang. And I think our people, because the military does it, they see the connection. I think that would work there too. We did just a little bit of it. I wish it could have done more.

[A]

Yeah. We have started doing a lot more of it this year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is so awkward.

[B]

It is.

[A]

But so effective.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

It's remarkable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How it just cuts right through and gives you this. It's like taking something 2D and making it 3D.

[B]

Yeah. Well. And you help again. I just walked through it with my brother who I just shared with you the personal experience there and had a situation. I just say, how about we role play this? How are you going to talk about this? And I posed some questions to him and it was good for him, I think, to hear it out loud. I think that really helps you versus I think a lot of thoughts in my head. But to verbalize it out loud, it was very healthy. Very healthy. And again, I think it works at home. If you're having a struggle, get a good friend and role play the stinking thing. Whatever the situation is, if it's a positive thing you're trying to communicate or even a negative thing, that role playing. And again, I learned that from. From Jocko and Leif, just watching them role play that stuff.

[A]

Yeah. We've. We did some training with Marcus Sheridan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who spoke at our first summit as well. And he. From a sales standpoint, he's a little.

[B]

High energy, isn't he?

[A]

He's very high energy. Yeah. But his training was remarkable and a lot of it was about role playing. He was basically like, if you're not role playing, you're leaving a lot on the table.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So sales team's done a great job of it. And then Randy's done a great job Bringing it into the organization. He had a leadership call not too long ago, and we were going to pivot on an offering, and he was like, all right, well, if we're gonna sell this, we need to believe in it. So here, let's. Let's role play it. Sell it to me. And it was. I wasn't a part of the meeting, unfortunately, because I was on a different time zone, but I was listening to it, and it was pretty spectacular. I was like, wow, this is great. And I think you learn a lot. But I also think it's like a form of play for human beings, for adult. A form. It's. It, which I think is so important. I think play is essential, and play is missing from a lot of companies. A lot of companies take themselves far too seriously. Yeah. There you go then. This is what I love about, like, listening to a podcast or an interview with comedians, especially comedians, because they'll. Because they live in this playful world, and so they'll start going down this path where they're. They start, like, just all of a sudden within the conversation, acting like somebody else. And then the other person, without anything said, starts playing their part, and they start going back and forth within these two different characters all of a sudden within this. And it's like, this is so much fun to listen to because they're just playing. They're just making stuff up.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So good.

[A]

So I think there's, like, an added benefit where it's just. It's also.

[B]

I think it's just get out of the situation. Laugh at yourself. Can you laugh at yourself? Yeah, it builds trust. There you go.

[A]

Because to role play, like, you do have to try. You have to have a certain degree of trust with the other person to not make fun of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's quite vulnerable. And so from a crew setting, I don't think there's anything better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And that's where.

[B]

And that's a. You got to help them get comfortable with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, what are you doing to us? Us?

[A]

Y. Y.

[B]

So you got to see. Get the right guys or gals and. And. And role play it for them, you know, show them what it can be. And what's the benefit again? Yeah, that's.

[A]

Yeah, it's. But I just cannot stress that starting at the top thing enough. It's just the best organizations I can think of have a leader that is out and about. I haven't seen it otherwise.

[B]

Yeah. And again, I think that's what's the priority, because, you know, My boss and even our executive team, we all had the charge to get out more. And we can make every excuse in the book why we couldn't get out and it has to stay the priority.

[A]

Yeah. And I've run into this trap where I've been at times and I think about it now, I'm like, that's so stupid. But I'll justify my absence by saying how much stuff I have going on that they don't understand. And it's like, that doesn't matter. That's irrelevant. That's making it all about me.

[B]

That's our society, Aaron. If we express we're busy, then people think we have value. And again, it's like that's every walk of life, every I'm. That's where we get our self esteem from. Many times that we're busy.

[A]

Sure. Well. And within the organization, it's like I could say all that, you know, I've been working so hard to make payroll for everybody. But it's like, okay, but that's your job. You're supposed to make payroll for everybody. Like that's why I'm here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're going to make payroll. That's the agreement we have. So good for you. Congratulations. I don't really care. And they, not that they don't care, but it just doesn't. That doesn't make them feel special. Like, wow, wow, payroll, good for you. Like I can get that from a lot of different places. It's. But again, I fell into this trap for a few years where I was just so bogged down by all this other stuff going on that I wasn't talking to our people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now I. But you have to be deliberate about it. You have to. If you don't schedule it, it doesn't happen. I found for me.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So I've scheduled it from now on and it happens. And it's one of, if not the most valuable thing I do.

[B]

Yeah. You know, there's a book out, I got it from HCSS a few years. It's called the Collaborative way. And it's phenomenal. And that's where that phrase comes from. I don't think I have the time to have this conversation. I don't have the time not to have it. And again that, that's so important to be in front of the, the staff, the employees, whoever that is out in the field. And again, that's where. That's where I fell down many times not getting out to the field as much. And again, I can rationalize and because we, as leader, we have things we like to do. I think you said it earlier. What's the thing that only I can do or I can do it better than other people just because of my role. I think that was the same for Brad, our director of Highway Construct. What's the thing that you can do? You need to give the other stuff away.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So you can stay on that.

[A]

Yeah. But I think it's funny. Like, I'm not. I'm not naturally good with people. I don't like social stuff all that much. I don't like. I don't like that part of the business. It's just not naturally who I am. But I've had to make it a very important part. Like, I've. I've come to enjoy it by getting better at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I naturally. I don't want to be a part of it. Like, if we have some team event. I don't. I want to put it together. I want everybody to get together, and then I just want to get out of there. It's just. It's how I've always been. I'd be the, like, in college, first one to leave the party. I'm just, like. I just get to a point where I'm. I'm done. I'm out of here. No more. Let's. Let's go home. And then I just vanish. I don't tell anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just. And I love that. I love it. But the position I'm in is not good for that. And I've also had to recognize, like, that that doesn't serve me and those around me.

[B]

So let me ask you this, because I'm just curious. So I think you said you maybe start to enjoy it. And I'll just say we went to dinner last night. You know, you invited my wife to come along.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She walked away. She's like, what an outstanding young man. Now that. Did you learn? Did you train yourself to be. How did that come about? And I think this comes to. There are different skills that we can learn as leaders that are important. I just have to tell you that she was so impressed with you.

[A]

I'm happy to hear that. I loved having dinner with you and your wife. It's phenomenal. I really enjoy it, but it's not my. Not in my natural character to be like, hey, Dave, let's go out for dinner with you and your wife. Yeah, like, that's. That's not. I have to, like, I have to make that happen. And. And I love it, but I'm not naturally gonna make it happen, but it's.

[B]

Like, so have you done the color things on your personalities? Do you know which one you are?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. That you ought to go back and visit that again. How. That's just interesting to me because you come across very well and I can believe it is a little difficult for you just from what you've audibly said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't come across that way. So I think you've learned it.

[A]

I have, yeah. And I've had to go. And I'm still working on it. I'm still going all in and even on, on job sites, like, I've, I've. It's. I look back on it and it's like a little embarrassing. But I'm, I, I'm. I'm just, I get intimidated. I'm, I'm naturally. I'm just socially awkward. I just don't really know what the heck's going on. Social situations. So I'll be on a job site and I won't talk to people and I'll make up in my head like, well, they're busy, they don't really want to talk, so on and so forth. And I'm just gonna go over here, I'm gonna do my job, I'm gonna take some pictures, they're gonna do their job, everything's gonna be good. But then it comes off like, I, it comes off kind of like, oh, he's just over there. He's not even talking to us. And then now looking back on it, it's like, so dumb. Like, why wouldn't I go engage with. Because that's how I feel. Like I'm genuinely so appreciative of everybody on that job site.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I didn't express it. And so, and in my head, I was like, I was expressing it, but I didn't express it. So they have no idea. And they, the, the, they probably think I'm some asshole because they didn't. But I couldn't appreciate what they do more.

[B]

So if. Yeah, again, this isn't a. How you, you haven't really communicated unless the other person hears you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, you, you thought you communicated, but the other person got nothing out of it. So, yeah, it's probably something like that. And I think, yeah, we in construction are bad at that. We, we can justify because of our busyness that I sort of kind of did it.

[A]

Well, or even like, I don't know, some guy will be like 6, 7 with a beard and Two sleeves and just like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

£300. Just an absolute beast of a human being. Like a troll.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I'll be looking at him like he doesn't want to talk. Like, he's terrifying. Yeah. He could fold me up and put me in his lunchbox. Like, but then I'll.

[B]

I'll.

[A]

But then I'll talk to somebody like that. And then you're so quickly reminded, like, wait a minute, there's a little kid inside this.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Giant of a human being.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They just want to be recognized. They're proud of what they do. They have a family. They have kids. They, like, they're just another person, and I get in my head about it.

[B]

But then you.

[A]

Or you show them a picture and you see them light up and they start telling you a story. You're like, oh, I almost bought what's going on here, but you're just a person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it sounds so simple and stupid again. I fall into that all the time.

[B]

Yeah. That mindset. Be curious, not judgmental. You judge. We judge. The guy with sleeves, the long beard. I've made a judgment already that you really don't give a rip about what I think. How about. Let's just be curious today on people, people that God has put on this earth. What. How are you wired? I mean, and don't you find the most. I mean, what Dan Briscoe does when you guys go out and just have a conversation with people is amazing to me. He has the courage and so it takes some courage to get out of these shells that we have to go ask those questions.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, And Dan's a great example. He's not naturally. Him and I are similar in that regard. Like, he's not naturally a communicator, but he's in. Yeah. The amount of people he's connected with and the amount of people were connected with now as an organization because of the conversations.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is incredible.

[B]

Yeah, it is incredible.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's. But if. If somebody young in construction asks me what my best piece of advice is for them, it is learn how to communicate 10 out of 10 times, and it's not.

[B]

So, Aaron, what is. It's not just talking.

[A]

No.

[B]

So what. What is communicating to a young person? I mean, how would you help stretch them?

[A]

Well. I mean, tell them to read Extreme Ownership.

[B]

Well, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's a good place to start.

[B]

It's. It's. It's so good.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It's leadership. It's. It's. Yeah, it's Extreme ownership. It's. It's.

[B]

And I think we said it early on that I'm only going to be as successful as the people behind me or what? You know, and again, I think. Understand, you know, we may. We may think you may. An individual may think he's a rock star. Dude, that's. That's not going to get you very far. You need a team of people helping you. You need that operator, you need that labor. You need that grade checker. You need that gps. You need that mechanic. Boy. There's a group that we sometimes just. They're grubby, they're dirty. I don't.

[A]

Out of sight, out of mind.

[B]

Yeah, man. But I tell you, they notice. I think the mechanic grapevine is one of the strongest communicators in. You don't talk to them when you. Oh, man, your name's mud.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it should be that and truck drivers. Well, and why don't you. They're tough to talk to, but anyhow, you know. But yeah, they're people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They have value.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well. And. And this is where you can be a laborer. You can wield significant influence as a laborer, I believe, through communication, through leadership.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think you have to. It's ironic. Like you're. You're best off developing yourself as a leader while you're in that lowest position, because that's going to carry you to those future positions and make you worthy and effective within those future positions as a crew leader or super project manager, whatever. But yeah, as a laborer, I think you have significant influence, even just getting to know the people you work with.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like that in itself. Developing real relationships. Do you know Jerry's wife's name? Do you know if Jerry has kids? How old are his kids? What does he do on the weekend? Like, simple stuff. You can work with these people for a decade and not know somebody's wife's name.

[B]

Yep, exactly.

[A]

That happens all the time. Happens all the time.

[B]

You know, and that's. That's Jocko again saying every issue you have is a leadership issue. So irregardless of where you're at in the chain of command, whether you're the labor, you can be leading. And that's one thing we were pounding that. I don't care if you're the labor, if you're the entry level admin person, you have the opportunity to lead because you know something about the organization that no one else does. So learn to lead with where you're at. That nugget of knowledge that you have and you just see people start to get their confidence. And I think maybe as I look over my 40 years, I think I just was like, okay, here's where I'm at. I don't have a, we never had titles before. Everybody wants a title today. Sure, yeah, I just did what needed to be done. You know, just be curious about something and just take the leadership role that I could where I was at. Never, never expecting something, oh, this is going to get me a promotion. And again, I think maybe that's more in the competitive corporate America. And not that we're not competitive, but the maybe cutthroat is the word I'm looking for. Yeah, I just was like, you got it.

[A]

Climbing the ladder.

[B]

Yeah, climb. It's like I never did it to climb. I just wanted to do the best job I could.

[A]

But that this is where people self sabotage and I don't blame them because they've worked for bad companies that don't reward that, that you take advantage of them. But it's like you're the first person to win or lose based on how much you give back to the organization. And any good, great organization will, you will be rewarded over time for that in compensation, in career, wherever you want to go. Like that's, that should happen. A lot of times it doesn't. So people get bitter or they get screwed down the road. Like I don't, I, I totally understand where they're coming from but it's a shame because regardless they're the first ones to lose if they have that negative mindset. I'm only going to do what I'm paid, you know, what I'm paid for. I'm only going to do what my job says to do. Nothing more than that. Like that's the quickest way to sabotage your, your career, your life. You lose that. You lose every time with that mentality.

[B]

There were many times that I thought I deserved more money because I knew I was working harder than the guy next door, you know, so you have to. I fought that for years. And again to me, my faith has always been very important to me. And I had to remember ultimately who was writing my paycheck and that was God Almighty. And so he knew all the things I was doing sometimes that I thought got skirted, got looked over, nobody saw it. I'm like, you think he doesn't know who's in? I mean I had to ultimately tell myself who's my boss? Ultimately, sure. Again, I've been put in a great place and Was blessed to work there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bim. Vaughn Veit on the back of his car. He says, my boss is a Jewish carpenter. Which took me a moment to figure it out. Then once I figured it out, I was like, oh, that's good. I like that.

[B]

That's really good. But again. Yeah, there. Yeah, that's. How do you. How do you lead where you're at in the organization? And sometimes you don't get that chance to move up. I mean, I wanted that title many times. I thought, you know, I was like, okay. And so again, how do you. You gotta have. Again, my value system was a. The foundation of my life. And so that helped me so much. Yeah.

[A]

Well. And whether you're a Christian or not, you. You know, if you're doing what you should be doing.

[B]

Oh, we don't. We do. We all know.

[A]

Yeah. And you can lie to yourself all day, all week. You can lie to yourself for a lifetime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People do it all the time. I've seen it all the time. But. But, you know.

[B]

Yeah. If being a Christian doesn't make you immune to that either.

[A]

100%. Yes.

[B]

Believe me. Because I was. And I still had those feelings. Yeah, exactly. Like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Didn't do my best job every day, so.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been. I'm. Yeah. I'm wandering my way through the Old Testament right now, and it's been. It's just provided a lot of color on certain things. And you. And you read some of the stuff, you're like, this is pretty good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They've had this figured out for a while.

[B]

Yeah. I'm glad we're going through it, too. I just got done with judges. I'm so glad to be out of that book. They're just, like, killing each other and doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whatever they thought was right. Get back to, we know when we've done wrong. We do know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that. But that's what makes it so funny when it's like the people that lecture. That use. That use the Bible to lecture people, they're missing the whole point. Like, that's like. The whole point of the. Of it, I feel like, is like, hey, there's right and wrong, but we're all fallible individuals.

[B]

Yes, we are.

[A]

None of us get it perfectly right. Exactly. That's just not how this works. But yet you see people wield it as a weapon or some certain. When it's wielded as a weapon, it's like that's missing the whole point of what's going on. Here, I feel like that's. That's, like, against everything. So you're. And those are the people to watch out for when they haven't made any mistakes. It's like, all right, what are you. What's in your closet, mister?

[B]

Talk about walking up to somebody, and I may make a judgment on them, I may look down on them, but by the grace of God, I would be in their shoes, you know? And again, they're having a tough situation and making poor choices. I mean, people do that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But we're not supposed to give up on them.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And again, that's why I always like the people side of working in construction. I never knew too much about the scrapers, how many. You know, the cycle times and all. That wasn't why I was in construction, but I feel. I just loved the career of working with the people and the gray areas, you know, it's all gray and so. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I guess that's what's kept me here was like, the bulldozers got me in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the people are what.

[B]

I've exactly fallen in love. Yeah.

[A]

It's just. It's an extraordinary group of people.

[B]

Yep. And the culture, again, don't like to use cliches, but culture eats strategy for lunch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and again, we get. We can have the best laid plans, but it's your culture. What. What is your culture? Well, and that's maintaining quality equipment. Again. What is your culture? Take pride in it. Again. Was just blessed to work at Miller's for 40 years. This is crazy. That worked out.

[A]

It is crazy. I mean, 40 years, it's a long time. That's a. That's a run.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not the norm when it comes to switching jobs, that's for sure. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But you're also a great example of. Hey, if you find the right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Place.

[B]

Yeah. Well. And you talked, you know, you knew certain things, and you're an entrepreneur and, you know, have the courage to make some changes. You know, change is going to happen. And again, sometimes I maybe sat still, too. Not in my. I always wanted the next. The next thing. But it was at Miller's. I wanted the next thing for Miller's. I wasn't there to be content where I was at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, again, I think our young people, they do want to change. They're wired that way. That's how my kids are wired. So I sort of get that more than when I walked in the door at Miller Brothers, and.

[A]

But there's. I think there's A power to you, finding a business and most importantly, this family that you really believe in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That has similar values and working with, becoming part of that family and recreating yourself. But within that family, let's, hey, I've like, this aligns with who I am, where I want to go. So let me just build this team, this organization as much as possible over my career, which I think is, is. I think a lot of people would be better served doing that than like, I think for some people it's good to go try a bunch of stuff out, but the grass is always greener mentality. Like again, I feel like you're the loser, you're the first loser of that a lot of times because it breeds such dissatisfaction and stymies certain opportunities that you can have right in front of you.

[B]

Yeah, I think there's probably a continuum when I look at, you know, what's happening in college sports where these young people can switch schools year after year after year. And where do you stick and fight through adversity? Where do you learn to deal with, oh, I didn't get my playing time or I didn't get the promotion, so I'm just going to switch. I mean, again, I had those thoughts, but it's like, I don't know, I don't know why. I just knew I was where I was supposed to be. And again, there were things I needed to fight through and learn, learn about. And those don't come just by jumping ship every time. And I see that in the college setting right now. And I'm just like, man, how do you build a team when somebody can leave no different for business if they're going to be jumping. And I see people jumping right now in construction. They're jumping to the higher dollars non stop. People are, it's competitive. I mean, and you can go, so what are you ultimately working for at the end of the day? Yeah, you got to make a good living. But I mean, what, what's driving you every day?

[A]

And that's a question a lot of people should ask themselves. I've asked myself that a lot. It's like, yeah, what, what am I trying to do here? Like. And that's where that reflection go full circle sometimes comes in handy. Take a moment to be like, why am I doing this? What am I trying to do here? Where am I trying to go? What's important to me now? I have some kids at home. Has that changed things? Like taking inventory of what the heck's going on, why you want to do certain things, like I was listening to an interview the other day. They were talking about a lot of people running away from something versus running towards something. And you're running. Everybody's running.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But it's different motivations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think. I think there's value in running away from things. Like, especially childhood is a great example. A lot of people are just terrible. Childhood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you use that as motivation. Like, I never want to go back there and I'm going. Or you grew up around alcoholism. I'm never going to, you know, wade into those waters. Like, I think there's value in it, but I also think it's. Yeah, you can run away, but at some point you need to also determine where you're going. I think you can't just run away indefinitely, or else you just, like, serpentine and do circles and like, you're. You don't end up anywhere.

[B]

Well, again, think about when you get my age. You hear a lot about the legacy. What legacy are you. What legacy are you going to leave? I mean, Millers has a legacy. I hope some point there's a legacy that my family will look back at. And again, that doesn't happen by jumping ship all that often. I mean, what have you established? What will people say about you when you're gone? So what is your legacy? I think, Aaron, I think you're establishing a legacy at such a young age. It's just so cool, and you should be proud of that. And again, just keep up what you're doing. I'm so impressed. I. So impressed. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I'm. Yeah, I'm just. I'm very happy for you. I'm glad you did your four years and now you're onto a different adventure. Yeah, it's just awesome. Yeah, it's a. It's a just phenomenal story.

[B]

Yeah. And again, there's. There's neat things happening. And like, you know, you sort of like, okay, what's next? You know, and people say, well, what are you going to do? And I guess whatever I want to right now. But, you know, there are. There are some things, you know, I still have a little juice in the tank, you know, but to be able to choose what you want to do every day versus, I mean, it's called work for a reason. Right. I mean, there's some things we don't like to do in our jobs. And again, but, you know, just some opportunities to just deal with leadership are just fun. They're exhilarating. They make me get up and go in the morning. And looking at young people coming up, you know, and again, I love the idea of startup businesses. The entrepreneur. I have so much respect for people that start their own businesses. I've always worked for someone else, and that's a different deal. So, again, I don't know what it's been like to be in your boots to start something from scratch. I can't even imagine.

[A]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion it's not in most people's best interest to start something because it's.

[B]

It.

[A]

There's a giant cost to it that people don't. It's all about the upside. It's like, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, there is some upside, but you don't. It's just different. It's like, it's not for everybody. Again, it's for a specific group of people. And then for. I think a majority, working for somebody else is a much better deal because you can go home, you can put your phone away, you can be with your kids, you can take time off, like, you can. Not that you can't do that on the other side of things, but it's like. It's a lot healthier in most regards.

[B]

You know, I was just talking to my brother about that these past couple weeks. What possessed Dale and Floyd Miller coming out of the Depression to think they could start a construction company?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why would you think you could do that? These guys were not. They were. I don't even know what they did before, but what would possess them to think they could do that?

[A]

Well, you need to have a screw loose.

[B]

Well, you know, I'm looking at you and I'm. But what possesses a young man like you? Dale and Floyd were young at one time to think that they could do this? I just think that's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. I think, like, my belief is I was put on this path, so it's like it chose me. I didn't choose it, but instead of fight it. All right, cool. Yeah, I'm gonna go all in. And knowing I'm supposed to be on this path has been very. Even amongst chaos has brought a lot of peace.

[B]

What were the early signs for you? Like, I think I'm just. I'm sorry, am I supposed to ask you questions?

[A]

No, this is great. I think people overthink it. I think you just have to listen. You just have to listen to and observe and think about just what. What gets you going. Like what. What. What draws you in, what's exciting, what. What gives you just a little bit more than anything else and just go in that direction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like that's it. But. But I think a lot of people, they go wrong or they don't go wrong. They don't have the opportunity to listen because they either go get this degree that's put them on a certain path, or they have this debt or financial situation that doesn't allow them to. Or they have parents saying, no, you're not going to do that. You're going to do this. Or societal pressure. You get married and you have a few kids and now you have a house and. And I'm just too far down this career, and I didn't really, when I chose it, knew who I was or anything like that because I was 21. But, you know, I'm 32 now, and I've got these obligations. Yeah. A lot of people don't have that opportunity. But if you do have the opportunity, there's just so much value in trying things, Listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And moving in the direction where. Like that. That gets you going just a little bit more than anything else. I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated. It is, but it's not.

[B]

Again, again, reflecting back, I loved coaching. I coached high school sports for 10 years while I was at Miller's. Now, again, I couldn't make a living coaching, so I worked at Miller's. They allowed it. But I always liked coaching people.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so when I got out of coaching for sports, it just gravitated. That's what gave me the juice. Like you said, a little extra. And that was the people side of it. Again, when I graduated from Anderson, I had an accounting and management degree. I always. I got into accounting because I knew. I wanted to know how the business ran. I wanted to try and be as smart as Randy Blunt. You know, I needed to understand the numbers. But really, the people side is what I knew really drove me. Coaching them. Coaching is leadership. And again, it just sort of. It's just been a fun ride to do that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Like, it's. It's cool being in a place where it's like, all right, yeah, this is where I should be. And some days are just maddening. I want to beat my head against the wall most days, but I know at the end of the day, it's like, this is exactly where I should be. I don't need to go look for anything else.

[B]

Yep. And that's how it end the. The final years of my career when I was coaching people, leading people, teaching them, I was in such a sweet spot.

[A]

That's a. But that's a cool way to go out.

[B]

Yeah, it really was.

[A]

It's like the coolest way to go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is to have that opportunity. Yeah. I've put my almost my whole working career into this world, this team, this company and now I'm gonna, before I ride off into the sunset, just give back everything I've learned.

[B]

But I just kept getting though at the. Well, extreme ownership. Yeah. I mean it just kept coming to me. It was just stuff was just like are you kidding? This is such good stuff. So we're never done. We're lifelong learners so I think that's a healthy mindset to have too.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, very happy for you. Very excited about whatever the heck you do beyond this and appreciate you coming and chatting a little bit.

[B]

Very enjoyable. Thank you, Aaron.

[A]

Yeah, thanks Dave.

[B]

Okay.