From Near-Business Death to Prospering w/ Ryan Schmitt – DT 350

Summary

Podcast Title: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Host: Aaron (BuildWitt)
Episode: From Near-Business Death to Prospering with Ryan Schmitt – DT 350
Release Date: June 26, 2025

---

Introduction

In episode DT 350 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron engages in a profound conversation with Ryan Schmitt, the CEO of a construction company that successfully navigated through a perilous financial crisis to emerge stronger and employee-owned. The discussion delves into the transformative journey of Ryan’s company, emphasizing themes such as transparency, Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs), lean methodologies, and leadership.

---

The Brink of Business Collapse

Ryan begins by sharing the harrowing experience his company faced around 2018, highlighting the dire circumstances that nearly led to the business's downfall.

Ryan [50:00]: "That was the toughest part of my life... just trying to stay positive every day and that. Just every day I'd put my feet on the floor, getting out of bed and just walk into the punch."

During this period, the company grappled with multiple large projects that went awry due to differing site conditions and terrible project designs, resulting in substantial financial losses and the loss of bonding capabilities.

---

Embracing Transparency and ESOPs

A pivotal moment in the company's turnaround was Ryan’s decision to adopt an ESOP and implement transparency in sharing financials with the entire workforce.

Ryan [03:53]: "Companies don't talk about it. For her to actually become employed and not really know... I'm like, no, ours is gonna be face forward, robust part of our culture. We're talking about it all the time."

Ryan emphasizes that transparency was not merely about sharing numbers but educating employees on what those numbers meant and how their actions directly impacted the company's financial health.

Ryan [60:22]: "Transparency is super powerful... it's, you know, I've spoken last year at the summit and to what our transparency looks like."

He describes the implementation of profit sharing alongside the ESOP, where every 30 cents of every dollar beyond the base profit is allocated to profit sharing, thereby aligning employees’ interests with the company’s financial success.

Ryan [69:12]: "It's called win the year and it's... Everything that we do, good or bad, whether it's... it's going to help the entire company."

---

Implementing Lean Methodologies for Efficiency

The conversation shifts to how Ryan’s company incorporated lean methodologies to streamline operations and eliminate waste.

Ryan [06:12]: "The share allocation is basically your percent of your salary to the aggregate of salaries... every year you have a stock price."

Ryan draws parallels between lean practices in manufacturing and their applicability in construction, highlighting reductions in standby and waste time through time studies and efficiency departments.

Aaron [33:06]: "I love it. And from a business owner's perspective, when I go out on a job site and a crew is just still humming."

Ryan [37:23]: "We first started doing that. They were like, oh my gosh, it's a big brother."

By conducting video-based time studies, the company identified inefficiencies and collaboratively developed solutions, resulting in significant improvements in productivity.

---

Leadership Presence and Company Culture

Ryan underscores the importance of leadership presence in fostering a positive company culture and driving the company’s success.

Aaron [12:25]: "One of the biggest, most important factors is that leadership is present... and you can get so caught up in all that."

Ryan recounts his personal transformation from a secluded CEO to a visible, empathetic leader, actively engaging with employees through feedback sessions and morning huddles.

Ryan [08:21]: "I do these, what I call them, feedback sessions... I love doing it."

This proactive leadership approach not only boosted morale but also enhanced operational efficiency by encouraging open communication and continuous improvement among teams.

---

Overcoming Adversity Through Collective Effort

The episode delves into how the company’s adversity served as a catalyst for organizational change and employee loyalty.

Ryan [54:36]: "That was the toughest part of my life... And she [his wife] said, well, doesn't matter, as long as we're still together."

Faced with severe financial strain, Ryan's transparent communication and unwavering commitment to people-first principles galvanized the workforce, fostering a sense of shared responsibility and collective ownership.

Ryan [57:26]: "But I was like, all right, guys, but this is what we're doing. Here's the plan."

This solidarity was crucial in not only navigating through the crisis but also in setting the foundation for a sustainable, employee-owned future.

---

Profit Sharing and Financial Transparency

A significant portion of their turnaround strategy involved profit sharing and maintaining financial transparency.

Ryan [69:12]: "We call it win the year worth 30 cents of the dollar... it goes right to the bottom line."

By making profit metrics visible and tying them directly to employees' efforts, Ryan ensured that every member of the organization understood their role in the company's financial health.

Ryan [70:13]: "It's being done for a system where everyone participates... We share profits in real-time."

This approach not only motivated employees to contribute to the company's success but also reinforced a culture of accountability and mutual benefit.

---

Recruiting, Training, and Internal Development

Ryan discusses the importance of internal promotion and continuous training in building a resilient and skilled workforce.

Ryan [85:41]: "We got a training yard called the Forge... We've got booklets on every position in the company listing all the skill sets."

The company invests heavily in training programs, including simulators, booklets, and micro-learning sessions like Micro Mondays, fostering a culture of continuous improvement and skill development.

Ryan [89:21]: "They are eligibility for promotion... they've mastered it... they're eligible for promotion."

Such initiatives have led to higher employee engagement and lower turnover rates, as employees feel valued and see tangible pathways for career advancement.

---

Leveraging Technology and Innovation

The discussion also touches upon the company's embrace of advanced technologies like Artificial Intelligence (AI) to further enhance operational efficiency.

Ryan [20:09]: "We came up with AI solutions to like scan specs for RFIs... multiple projects."

By partnering with academic institutions and leveraging AI, Ryan's company has been able to streamline processes, improve accuracy, and reduce manual workloads, positioning itself at the forefront of innovation in the construction industry.

---

Conclusion: A Model of Success and Inspiration

Ryan Schmitt's journey from the brink of business collapse to establishing a thriving, employee-owned company serves as an inspiring blueprint for other businesses facing similar challenges. Through transparency, lean methodologies, proactive leadership, and a strong focus on employee development, his company not only survived but flourished.

Ryan [95:37]: "Now it's getting more fun. It's a real exciting place to be."

The episode concludes with Ryan expressing his enthusiasm for continuing to share his story and help the industry embrace similar transformative practices.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ryan [00:00]: "The optics of things are huge."
• Ryan [06:30]: "The share allocation is basically your percent of your salary to the aggregate of salaries."
• Aaron [12:25]: "Leadership is present. There's no way around that."
• Ryan [37:23]: "What's something that's so important... I could be the least value to the company."
• Ryan [54:36]: "That was the toughest part of my life."
• Ryan [69:12]: "Everything that we do, good or bad... it's going to help the entire company."
• Ryan [85:41]: "We've got booklets on every position in the company listing all the skill sets."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt offers a deep dive into the transformational strategies that can rescue a company from the brink of collapse. Ryan Schmitt's candid insights and actionable strategies provide valuable lessons for leaders in the construction industry and beyond, demonstrating the power of transparency, employee empowerment, and innovative leadership in building resilient and prosperous businesses.

For those interested in implementing similar practices, learning from Ryan's experience could be instrumental in fostering a culture of ownership, continuous improvement, and sustainable growth within their own organizations.

---

Thank you for listening to Dirt Talk by BuildWitt. Subscribe for more insightful conversations on Dirt World issues, leadership, and business growth strategies.

Transcript

[Ryan]

If I'm going, I'm driving by a job site sometimes that like, I don't plan to stop. Like, it's just happened to drive by on the. Where I'm going. Like, I'm like, I kind of go where my truck can't be seen because I don't want people to think, you know, I don't want to stop and talk to them, because I do. I just can't. But they won't understand that. I'm like, just the optics of things. The optics of things are huge. And I talked to my leadership team about that. I'm like, guys, you got to think about the optics, you know, what we do and how we act and the things we say or don't do. The optics are huge.

[Aaron]

ESOP thing is, is I think one of the best models out there.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't think it's. I, I think it's even more work in a lot of ways. And you might, I mean, you're the one doing it, so maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have to be really, to make it successful, you have to be really intentional.

[Ryan]

Very.

[Aaron]

You can't. Like, it's by no means an easy button. Oh, I just hit esop. Hit the ESOP button. And now we have a culture of ownership.

[Ryan]

Not at all.

[Aaron]

I don't think it works that way.

[Ryan]

But we, we already started like that though, so I'm like, what? It's almost a no brainer that we went ESOP because we were transparent. We sure we were. I'm like, this automatically plugs in. So where I think a lot of people are, you know, in the starting blocks dead still. I think we were at a full sprint when the starting gun went off. And. Yeah, I mean, we still establish a communication committee and we're still looking at best practices to how we communicate and you know, stuff like that to get better. Best in class at it. But yeah, I just came back from the conference, the NCEO conference, which is the national center for Employee Ownership.

[Aaron]

Oh, wow.

[Ryan]

I mean, a ton of people there.

[Aaron]

Like, I saw a picture with your team.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we were probably standing in front of the nce.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you were. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yep, that was us. And I mean, there's a lot of companies been doing it for years and they, they're not doing any education or training.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah. But I feel like. Yeah, you're just, you're leaving so much on the table when you're not intentional about it like that. Yeah, when you're intentional about it, it can Be such a weapon. It's so cool. Like, the companies that are so deep in it are so much fun to be around because it has a, like, even. Even. It was funny. So my mom, she's been in the legal world for decades. So she was in law. Meets my dad. My dad's a lawyer. She stops working when she has kids. They get divorced. A while down the road, she goes back into law. She'd been in school so law, like her whole life. And it just got to a point where it's like, hey, maybe there's something else out there for me. She's later in her career. And so I was like, why don't I. Why don't I try to find her a gig here? Like what? I know a lot of people. Why don't I ask around? And there's this general contractor, Will Ming in Phoenix, Arizona that I know. I don't know super well, but I know of them know some key people there. So I helped get her in the door. But she did the work. She's now working there, which is awesome. Super exciting. And she was like, yeah, they. They have like an ESOP program. And I was like, they're an esop. She's like, yeah, that's it. I'm like, no, that's so. That's exciting. Like, I got excited for her because I didn't even know they were employee owned. And when I found out about that, I was like, hey. But I. But I had to, like, explain it to her. Like, this is a big deal. That means everybody is rowing in the same direction. Everybody's a shareholder. You become a shareholder. And so I had to like. But. But really explain it to her because I feel like most people still haven't heard.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Of the structure.

[Ryan]

Companies don't talk about it. For her to actually become employed and not really know. I mean, we. I mean, we walk. I speak with every single new hire at every new hire orientation about a lot of things, but a lot of it's the esop. I explain how it works and not in the minutiae, but in concept and what the impact is and what the ultimate goal is. And yeah, a lot of companies just almost like it's another retirement plan. You get your 401 and your ESOP, and I'm like, no, ours is gonna be face forward, robust part of our culture. We're talking about it all the time. Everyone's an employee owner. We don't talk. It's either a teammate or employee owner. And it just. Yeah, you just got to keep it keep that messaging.

[Aaron]

So everybody at the company participates.

[Ryan]

Yep. Yeah, you got to be employed for a thousand hours as a new hire. And then you come in and there's, there's a vesting program. But yeah, everyone participates.

[Aaron]

But I join on Pettico Schmidt pipeline. And after a thousand hours, which is five and a half year. Yeah, Five months, six months. I'm now in the program. And then it'll vest over like four years.

[Ryan]

Six years. Six years.

[Aaron]

Five years.

[Ryan]

Which is pretty typical.

[Aaron]

Yep, Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And some of our people, when I started it last year, we retroactively made the start date the beginning of 23. So if you were working for since then, you're automatically vested two years and then you got another year for every five years you were there. So some people are like four years vested already. I see four and five years vested.

[Aaron]

Okay. And then, and we've talked about a little bit, but it's, it stacks up. So the longer you work, the more shares you accrue based on how much you're paid within the business.

[Ryan]

Yeah. The share allocation is basically your percent of your salary to the aggregate of salaries.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

But the stock price. Right. Every year you have a stock price. An independent company does evaluation and just like a publicly traded company only comes out once a year, though, you have your stock price and in fact, we just got ours. And we're going to have our big reveal at the end of the month, you know, which will be the first presentation. Yeah, first time. Yep. Very first stock price. Oh, cool. Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so then, so they get shares. That's the price of the shares. In theory, as the company grows, the stock price goes up. The longer the company, the more shares they accrue. So it becomes a pretty nice block of money by the time they retire.

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And then the company buys those shares from them and gives them that money.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Essentially over like a five year timeframe and paying out when they leave the company. And at the beginning, and I always use the analogy because it's a leveraged transaction. Right. The bank financed a big chunk of it. And I have a huge seller note on it too, about a third of it. And I always use the example, it's like, Aaron, I, I sell you $100,000 house. There you go. But here's $100,000 mortgage.

[Aaron]

It's not my house.

[Ryan]

Yeah. It's just like, wow, what do I sell it? I got nothing. Right. But I tell this, every person who joins on, I use it a lot is like, you know, Whoopi, do Right. But, you know, two or three years, you go build a deck out back, you remodel the bathroom, replace the shrubs out front. Paint. Paint it right. Little elbow grease. You and your buddies on the weekend. Meanwhile, you're paying down the mortgage, chipping.

[Aaron]

Away at the mortgage.

[Ryan]

You know, three down to, like, an $80,000 mortgage. Maybe the house is at $120,000. Right. Boom. That same thing. And. But I always like to say it's like, it's even better than real estate, because you can't take that house and from the bad part of town and move it to the good part of town. Sure. But a business value, you can. It's not, like, specific location, you know, specific. So you could do anything. Right. You can get really creative. We can come up with new lines, you know. You know, do some lean implementation. I mean, there's so much opportunity to drive value.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And that's on top. You're still getting paid your salary, wage, whatever it is, and then you still have retirement on top of that as well.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So it's. It's.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we have 401k.

[Aaron]

It's crazy.

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's.

[Aaron]

It's. It's unbelievable.

[Ryan]

And it's. And it's just. So I do these, what I call them, feedback sessions. I have little small meetings with different parts of the company multiple times a week. Like, I'll take biscuits and coffee out to a job site. Or like this last week, I was doing it with our mechanics, and I always sit down, I'm like, hey, what's going good with the company? What could we do better? What would you do if you were me? You know, just to get feedback. It's awesome. I love doing it. But anyhow, last week, I was with our mechanics, and I'm like, well, what's going good? And one of them said. He goes, you know what? Since we've been esop. I swear the equipment's been taken better care of. And I'm like. Like, you have no idea. I'm like, my body is tingling right now. This is awesome. This is the master plan. Right. This is how it's supposed to work. Right. Because I always tell everyone. I'm like, that's your equipment right there. Sure. Hey, y' all just got a new, you know, 350. Right. You know, it's all. We. We all own it together, so. And. But to hear that, you know, uninitiated comment of that. And that's good.

[Aaron]

That's huge.

[Ryan]

That only gets you more motivated to try. Okay. How can we further Communicate that. What else can we do?

[Aaron]

Sure. And that's. It's only been a year. Yeah, you said as well. But even though the ball was rolling before that, those feedback sessions. So you just. You just take coffee and like, the mechanics, for example, you just go to the shop.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Say, you know, hey, at 9, we're just going to get together for an hour.

[Ryan]

Yeah. It's usually in the morning, you know. You know, I'll do like a job site. I'll do like a small group of, like our PMs and PEs. Like, do our treatment plant projects. Usually it's a group small enough where everyone gets a chance to talk, you know, so I'll. If it's a job site, I'll show up with, you know, breakfast biscuits and coffee. And I always say, I feed you, but you give me feedback. And when I first started doing it, people were, you know, maybe not as talkative, but I've been doing this for years now. And now people like, oh, yeah. And I mean, they're speaking their mind. I tell them some stuff I'll go fix right away. Some stuff I just keep in the back of my mind. And when I make a decision down the road, I have a better perspective. One of the first ones, it was probably within the first couple of months I was out there and someone was telling me, like, yeah, because we supply bottled water to all the job sites. Right. Not just kegs of water. And someone mentioned that. You're like, yeah, this filtered water, if it sits in the sun a little long, it just starts tasting weird. I'm like, really? I had no idea. What do we do? All right, spring water for everyone. And they're like the back of the. They're like, what. What do you. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, like, well, you know, that's way more expensive. Like, yeah, but, you know, that other stuff tastes bad. We're not gonna do it, you know? And there it was funny. They're like, Ryan just went and switched all the water we're getting. And then they were so happy. And I'm like, yeah, well, that's. I had no idea.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's. It's interesting too. I've. I've been. It's just so easy. I, I. When I, When I. Especially when I speak upon this, like, I've really reflected upon what makes great companies great companies. And one of the biggest, most important factors is that leadership is present. There's no way around that. And that it sounds so obvious, but it's, it's actually quite Rare because, and I don't blame leadership because it's, it's, it's busy leading company. There's all kinds of stuff going on that no one has any idea about. Yeah, bankers and insurance and lawyers and all kinds of stuff. You're trying to get all the roadblocks out of the way so they can just keep building stuff, keep putting pipe the ground. But you can get so caught up in all that. And so, and even you can sometimes use it as an excuse like, listen, I'm just too busy to get out. And then like 6 months can go by, 12 months can go by and you haven't talked to some people, you haven't gotten out.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh my gosh. So I've started scheduling it. But what's interesting too is like you have to build that relationship as well. And so like the, the first time you meet with somebody you haven't met with is a little, a little awkward because you're, you know, they're trying to feel you out. You're getting to know them a little bit. But then you build that relationship. Those, this, it's the subsequent meetings, the subsequent time together that gets really good because it's like, oh, this isn't nonsense. Yeah, they actually do care about me. Okay, I'll offer my opinion, which is, it's pretty cool. Like, but it just takes, you have to be consistent with it. I learned you can't just do it once or else you're not going to get an annual feedback survey. It's not going to be that good.

[Ryan]

Because my assistant's responsible for putting it on my calendar every week. I've got, you know, I might do like four a week if I'm traveling a little bit. You know, maybe I do one a week or maybe even skip a week, but I'll make it up. Right. So I average probably two or three a week.

[Aaron]

That's quite a few.

[Ryan]

I mean, that's quite a bit. Yeah, but I'll just go, I mean go right to a job site, right. And just like, you know, just spend that time and. But yeah, I mean, I was guilty of that. And you know, we, we practice EOS with the structure of, you know, a visionary and then an integrator. And I was, I'm like, we're not like Apple. What do we, I mean, a visionary, I mean, you don't need, you know. And so I was head down in my office grinding it out and I was that guy. And while I still was a good delegator, I was just in my office and Then, you know, we fully adopted that structure. Lauren Atwell, I named as our president and coo, and I became the CEO, and, okay. And it was like, all right, well, I'm the visionary. Big picture, culture, strategy, major acquisitions, major relationships. I'm like, well, what. What the heck does that mean? Sure. You know, and then. Then I kind of, you know, got started doing these. I'm like, well, I kind of. It's my unique ability. I really enjoy it. I almost felt guilty because, like, this is actually too much fun, right? I get out that. And hang out with the guys and get to listen to them, and they feel appreciated. I'm like, this. That. I can't count that as work. Come on, who am I kidding here, right? But. But the value, you know, I could. The value and how important it was to everyone in the company. I was blown away. And so it's just something that's so important. And I realize whenever I'm in my office, I'm the least value to the company. And I bought. And we're remodeling a new office now, but we got really tight in our old one, and, you know, we need more and more. I gave up my office, my backpack. I just plopped down in different parts of the company and just kind of like, sit in a conference room or sit in the break room and talk to. To people. I'm like. So I'm like, I do not need to be in my office. I need to be out in front of people. Clients and other people, too, but really our people, right? And just being that visible leader and empathetic and curious and concerning. Right? And I'm like, holy cow, man. But, yeah, I was guilty. I wasn't doing that the whole time. And especially when you grow a company, right? You grow in your leadership skills. And that one's just not so obvious, you know, because it doesn't feel like you're working. It almost feels like you're goofing off.

[Aaron]

Well, and. And even harder, what we were talking about earlier is, like, even just making time to think because you're not doing. But that's the whole point. You're not doing. So you can. That's when you can think strategically, up and out, big picture. But you have to overcome the sense of guilt in a way. Especially at a construction company, you know, especially August in Florida at a construction company. Everybody, you know, underground, you're in a. You're in a trench, and it's. It's pretty miserable. I guess that's hard work. And you're sitting there Thinking, yeah, but.

[Ryan]

It, I'm sipping my coffee in Starbucks trying to get away from the office, which I'll do and I'll, I'll carve out that, that time. And it's. But you know, you know, being around, you know, I do, I've got more coaching than you can imagine and I'm learning immensely all the time and, but seeing these high level leaders, but I mean they need to be thinking and like I realized that and so, so much of my time I'm like, nope, quit going to me just culling meetings, culling meetings. Just hire great people, have them get it done, great processes and then just start thinking, right? Thinking about the future. What does it look like, right? I'm thinking 20 years ahead now, you know, we have a 10 year plan, a three year plan, one year plan. But I'm like, but what does 20 years look like? You know, and just, and then, because you got to build that muscle too, right? Because he can't just be the guy, his head's down and then he's like, oh, I'm going to be a really good thinker and think man. Because that takes a while. It's a skill set that you got to kind of work, work on.

[Aaron]

Is a skill set. Yeah, it's interesting. I've been reflecting upon that a lot recently and there's, there's a lot of people even in like big companies in prominent roles, but they're just still so day to day oriented that it's like, I wish I could, I almost wish I could like take them and put them somewhere else. Like, let's just think for a little bit, let's think bigger. Like this. There's so much more here. This is, this is a big world we're in. And honestly that's how I feel about the industry right now. In, in big picture, it's like, hey, let's think bigger here. Like, I get it, I get what's going on. I'm around, I interact with like, I know there's all these, all this stuff going on. We've got to build stuff and I get it, there's a lot going on. But we like if, if we're like, I think we're industry wide, not to take it way too big picture, but it's like we're the victims. Like we're the architects of our problem right now because we haven't been looking up and out as an industry because we haven't been looking big picture. We've been so focused on the execution that we're now Looking up and out like, oh, shit, what are we going to do? Future State. Like, this is a problem workforce, especially. What the heck? What the heck just happened? We've just been running the play for decades, and we built a bunch of great stuff, but now what? And it's like, yeah, now what? We got to. We got to look up and out and define what that is. And it's great that, you know, a petticoat. Schmidt's doing it, or Sergeant's doing or whoever's doing it, but, like, we also have to do it as an industry as well. Like, where's the industry going?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Where do we need to be Big picture. And that's what. Like, that's what we're doing with the summit, you know, Dirt World Summit, for example. It's like, let's. Let's talk about where we're going. Not where we've been, not where we are, but where. Yeah, where are we going?

[Ryan]

Oh, and it's such an exciting time. I mean, I. It's. And that's what's. It just blows my mind. In fact, Herb and I were just texting yesterday. He connected me with this guy, Zach Estes, who's lean in the dirt world. And I've been kicking around lean for years, and we committed and hired an industrial engineer, and we're like, no, we are doing lean, and it's a journey. Right. Because. But just I tell everyone all the time, I have this saying, it's like, you know, we put a man on the moon before we put wheels on our luggage.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

I mean, you think about that. We put a flipping man on the moon before we figured out that we didn't have to carry our luggage back in the day or something. Before. Yeah, before your time. Right. But I'm like, guys, where are we carrying our luggage in this business? Right? We're doing the same thing over and over, and we got AI. We've got all these tools. So I don't. That's where my head is a lot. And, like, how can we leverage AI? Because I stumbled on this opportunity. I'm on the advisory council for University of North Florida, the Dean's Leadership Council for Construction Engineering and Computing. And I was in one of our meetings, and I was just running my mouth going, I think my next hire is going to be someone who's just going to do AI. I need a who to help me with AI. And they're like, hey, Ryan, well, can we come talk to you? I'm like, sure. Well, I had no idea. But they said they had this program that was called professor in Residence. Basically you pay a professor for the summertime of what his salary would be and he can do whatever you want. And that guy. Yeah, interesting. And he's a construction professor with an AI background and he just worked on AI projects the whole summer really. And we came up with AI solutions to like scan specs for RFIs and all this, you know, all the submittals and shop drawings. And he did multiple projects. And now that was last summer. Now they came to us and like, hey, we're proposing, we'll work the whole year the same professor, but he's going to have some grad students under him working and it's way, way cheaper than even just hiring one person.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And they get real world then they've got the skill sets and. Yeah. And they're. And if we come up with anything, we get the intellectual property rights. And so it's. Yeah, it's. I'm like, let's go. Yeah, it's really exciting. And then we're using a lot for like estimating as well as sourcing candidates. And I don't know, I get it to where I just talk to it, I speak into it. Driving down the, I just started asking the questions, you know, bouncing stuff, stuff off, you know.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Randy and Dan and Jason, they're just all just down the AI rabbit hole right now. And I'm, I'm like the grumpy old man. All right, you kids have fun. I'm gonna sit here and write word, word by word.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. Thank God you'd still be laying pipe by batter boards and not a pipe laser, right? Yeah. If you were that guy.

[Aaron]

Yeah. If you're looking for another industry event that is a snooze fest, this is definitely not for you. But if you're a leader looking to elevate yourself, your team, looking for like minded individuals that are hungry, then look no further than the ARIAT DirtWorld Summit November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas. In our third year, we'll have about 1500 hungry industry leaders from about 500 companies looking to learn, grow teachers. It's going to be fantastic. We also have a world class lineup. We've got Jesse Cole from the Savannah Bananas, James Clear Atomic Habits, Kim Scott, Radical Candor, Mark Miller, Chick Fil A leadership, Tim Grover who is Michael Jordan's trainer. You will not hear from a lineup like this anywhere else. So check out details now dirtworld.com you can use code AARON10 for 10% off any registrations and we'll see you November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas. It's, it's all really interesting. I. In college, I met with a guy. I've probably told the story 100 times before, but it was a guy, he was a general contractor in Phoenix where I was going to school. Steve Channing of Channing Construction. And he, he, he just, he explained it better than anybody I've ever had it explained to me. It was like, listen, you know, I'm Mr. General Contractor. I'm making plenty of money, and I've been doing it this way for decades. I'm not really incentivized to change things up. I'm just not. However, like, why don't I know how. How much steel I have on this job right now? I can't tell you. I don't know. I should know. I should know exactly how much steel I have in this job. Like, and he was just illustrating. And they are innovating. It's not, it's not to, to downplay what they're doing, but it's. He was really just trying to illustrate, like, there's so many better ways to do things.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But the industry as a whole isn't really incentivized to go after them, which is totally true. Like, especially right now. Which is, which is what makes me. The past few years have made me more nervous than anything else because the spending on infrastructure right now is not normal. Like, it's been amazing to me how, how short everybody's memory is. Like, everybody's like, yeah, you know, the market's contracting. It's like, is it contracting? Or are the trillions of dollars that the government just injected into the economy going away? Like, yeah. Is that really a contraction?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Or are we just like, drunk on this ridiculous. On, on more government spending worldwide than in human history?

[Ryan]

We're just sobering up.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, but the, the. It's, It's, I think, fooled a lot of companies, individuals, etc, into thinking that what they're doing is still working because there's so much money to be made. Like, all these companies are making record money, record money. And you can, I can't show private companies, but you can look at any public company. It's like everybody's making a killing right now. And that's almost. That's just de. Incentivizing, asking any questions. That's de. Incentivizing, asking is there a better way to do things? Can we innovate? Can we develop people more effectively? So on and so forth. But that also creates the opportunity for people like you, it's like these big companies are not incentivized really to ask those questions. Some are and some are great. But then somebody like you, more nimble, hey, we're doing great and let's ask these questions. We can go even faster.

[Ryan]

And I'll tell you, the employee ownership model, it puts like fire on that gasoline in my mind, or at least it has for me. It's like the economic value of the company is completely driving the well being of our employee owners, right? The old EBITDA is getting thrown around. Yeah, I knew what EBITDA was, I went to school for it and all that, but I probably didn't say it more than a handful of times. But now it's all EBITDA being that's how the company's valued, right? And we talk about it all the time. We're like, you know, hey, this is just a multiple of that ebitda. And guys, whatever, every dollar we drop to the bottom line, it drives it up by a multiple. So if we figure stuff out and put wheels on our luggage here, I mean, we can really, really make a huge impact and life changing money for a lot of these people who otherwise would not have it. And one just do some awesome stuff. I mean, to me, you figure out a better way to do it or build a more cohesive team or fine tune your processes so much. You get that flow, right? You get that flow. You pull friction out of the system. That's a great, that's a great feeling. And then everyone is rewarded. So to me, that model prevents you from being like, well, I got my fishing boat and I got my hunting property and blah, blah, blah, I'm good, right? Why do I need to innovate? It completely turns that on its ear. And as long as, and that's why we really educate, I explain what EBITDA is, right? I mean, every time I get in front of people and talk about it, I mean, I'm not cranking out an accounting class, but the concept behind it, right? You know, basically the cash flow, the company profits shown up as in cash flow is what drives it. So, you know, that propane, you know, station we got out in the yard, you know, don't fill up with gas, fill up with propane. I mean, because, you know, we're only paying a buck 87 a gallon versus the, you know, $3 we're paying for. Yeah, gas.

[Aaron]

But it puts a totally different meaning on like, don't idle your machine.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's burning. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's burning my money.

[Ryan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

Have you. We went to. Have you been to Japan?

[Ryan]

I have not.

[Aaron]

We went to visit Hitachi and February, and I got to see Japanese manufacturing for the first time. And it's something. I'm weird. Like, I would much rather go to a Japanese factory than Mount Fuji. I think that's way cooler then. It was. It was extraordinary just to see lean in that setting. Like, this is where it's from. These are the people that have built this beautiful manufacturing process. And it was. It was just fun to see it. Like, there's just. There's no drama. There's no ego. It's just such a. It's. There's. There's this, like, beauty to it. There's no. Just no chaos.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, it's. It's. It just makes sense. And. And everybody is just doing what they should be doing. There's no waste. There's no question marks. There's no gray areas. You know, each. Each station had, like, the defects that they had found in previous.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Machines posted right there with pictures and pictograms and like, as straightforward as it gets. All kinds of fun stuff.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I just. I thought it was fascinating.

[Ryan]

Oh, I. I had a similar experience in the. The late 90s. I was getting my MBA and I was learning all about, you know, lean manufacturing and specifically the case studies that had to do with Deming, you know, having to go overseas because he wasn't. You know, no one really listened to him here. And how all of a sud. Komatsu started implementing it. And then. Yeah. And then Komatsu was driving it. But then all of a sudden, deer and cats are. Well, right about the same time. Before I started my company, I worked for another heavy civil firm, and we were a big deer user. And I got to go out to Moline and walk through the factories that had. They had acres and acres of indoor factory that was empty because they had now recently adopted all these pract is. And they're showing me all the lean procedures. And I've never seen the vast amount of indoor space that was just empty. Like. Yeah, we don't even need it anymore. Cause we're practicing just in time, inventory. And anyone can stop the line at the same time. And then you're walking the line and you got the guys who. They're working and they're like, oh, you're a customer. Well, they're asking me what I thought about this, this and this right here. I'm like, this is the most awesome thing I've ever. It was so cool. I'm in the same camp with you on that. I thought that was awesome. Especially on the heels of like learning on it in a book and then you go and see it in real life and you're like holy cow. I mean just. It's just amazing, you know how you just do the same thing over and over and over all these years and you think you're doing good and you know, just. Just how you tweak it or you change it and try something different can make a huge impact.

[Aaron]

But like, like underground is a great playground for lean. Like there's other. You can apply it anywhere.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But I feel like pipeline, it's very repetitive for the most part, you know, depending on what you're doing. But it's like why, why wouldn't we want to make that more lean? Like there's so many opportunities and I see a lot of pipe crews, I see a lot of pipe operations. There's nothing cooler to me than just a well oiled machine. Like the next stick is there before the excavator needs it. You know, the material is not very far. They're not moving very much. Yeah, everybody, they're doing just enough to do the job and no more than that. And it's extraordinary. It is my favorite thing to watch.

[Ryan]

They just.

[Aaron]

Well in the, in the crew, you can tell they've worked together for a long time. They know one another. They don't need to talk very much. They can like that.

[Ryan]

I love and I love it. And from a business owner's perspective, when I go out on a job site and a crew is just still humming.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Because I. It's funny, I've had some foreman over the years. Oh, Ryan. When you come out in the job site, guys just. They lose their mind and they just get nervous and all that. And I think to myself, I'm like, well that's probably because you're not a strong leader. Because if they really knew what they were doing and they didn't have to be reassured by me or anyone else that you positively reinforced them day after day and built that chemistry. Because I would sometimes I'll go out. I remember this one foreman, he was just like you described. I mean I'm sitting there and I pull up my truck and he's talking to me by the window. And the crew is just, they're just so much. They're like, hey, you gotta move. Because we're just. They're just coming along, right. And you know, it's like I could have Been there. No one could have been. They. Because they were. They had a great leader in that foreman who just was, you know, a good positive reinforcer of what good, you know, work looked like. And they didn't need me. They. I mean, it was. But to your point, yeah, that is so good. And so that's why we have like our efficiency. We have an efficiency department, an industrial engineer. We'll do time studies on our crews. And we first started doing that. They, oh my gosh, it's a big brother. Oh, you're just watching us. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. What are the best sports teams doing? You know, what is, you know, Nick Saban doing? They're watching game film, right? This is game film. And we actually had a job where, I mean, we had these guys, they were struggling to get like 80 foot a day. It was a really tight, confined, you know, existing utilities and, you know, had to cut and demo asphalt along with the pipeline. And. And so we were like, no, let's try this. Let like just, let's just watch it. And we filmed them and they're like, oh my gosh, I had no idea we were doing this, this and this. And they came up with their own ideas and they went from like that 80 foot up to 200 foot a day just by doing that. And now we've got them. And it's part of. Some people, they request it now they're like, hey, can we do a time study?

[Aaron]

Really?

[Ryan]

But now it's the next evolution because now we've learned. It's like, okay, when we're laying, we're doing pretty good. If we, if we do that and we're laying, we can get better. It's the in betweens, right? It's like, oh, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, when we're laying, we're doing good. But it's like, but yeah, we had to wait for that, you know, hoe to be delivered or there was missing information or maybe we didn't pothole far enough ahead or yeah, it's the in betweens, right? And it's like, all right, well let's get studying on that, right? And let's do like a Pareto chart and figure out what's the low hanging fruit and. And you know, just to figure out, man.

[Aaron]

So you have a full time industrial engineer.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In the efficiency department. And they'll do like at its basic, at its most basic, in its most basic form, take a stopwatch and break up laying a stick of pipe into a few different categories, right? Like digging the trench and maybe, you know, grading the trench, laying the pipe. Is that correct?

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's all. It's all pretty much through video. Yeah, we'll do time studies.

[Aaron]

So you just record the crew.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. And then watch and then, you know, category, categorize the time, and they come up some really cool data where, you know, so much percentage was, you know, productive time. So much was standby time, so much was waste time. And you could see it all visual, like pie charts and stuff like that. And then trend analysis. You can see these trend lines. Wow.

[Aaron]

And then you take that information and meet with the crew about it.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, They'll. They'll look at it and they'll. They'll. They'll watch the film too. And it's raw data, and. Because when you speed it up a little bit, you know, you can kind of see like, you know, maybe that all of a sudden they're like, oh, man. Once you start looking at it, you see some things really run around. Yeah. It's like, why are we going all that way? Or like, gosh, we're sitting there cutting the asphalt. You know, why don't we pre. Cut it all? Or why don't we. Right. You. Especially when you just kind speed it up and you see those. Those times where you're just sitting around and you ask yourself, why was that?

[Aaron]

And you. You would do that in like a morning meeting out on site with these guys, just when.

[Ryan]

Kind of whenever we got done doing it. Right. You know? Yeah.

[Aaron]

So at the end of a job.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. Well, we've got done doing the video, and they're like, all right, guys, it's ready to go. Let's. Let's get in there and look at it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but you'll. But. But you'll have them look at it out in the field in a morning meeting? Something like that.

[Ryan]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah, That's.

[Aaron]

That's fascinating.

[Ryan]

And we're barely scratching the surface. We were. We had one person in that position, and great guy, but he decided he wanted to go be a pilot, and so we support him on that. And so we just backfilled his position somewhat recently. And the lady who's doing it now, she's, I mean, come from a whole nother industry, which is kind of interesting. And I prefer. I like more manufacturing, but, you know, looking at it with a fresh set of eyes and coming in there and taking that philosophy. But I think what's real important, too, is, like, you can't go out and use lean technology like Gemba walks and Kaizen and all that. I think that's where the lean kind of struggles a little bit because everyone automatically, you hear words like that, you're like, oh wait, that's Toyota. That's manufacturing. That's not us. Right. So no, it's like it's a job site. Well, right, we'll walk the job site. You know, that's all that is.

[Aaron]

The same concept.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Paul Lakers wrote a book, Two Second Lean that I think is one of the best lean books. And we have our guys, they have to read that before we do like a boot camp for certified builders. It's like two days like Tony Robbins meets construction. And it's really cool. But even to get in, you have to read one of them is Jason Schroeder's book. And then. But the other one is this Two second Lean. And they just like, hey, let's meet at the beginning of the day and talk about what we did and where was, what could we do differently to save two seconds? Just two seconds. And it just trains your brain to start thinking like that. Well, how about this? Okay. All right, what's the next day? Right? And it's just as opposed to getting hung up on the terminology.

[Aaron]

And yeah, there was this and to that there was this. I forget what his name was, but he was a famous guy in the cycling world Tour de France. And it was, the whole concept was.

[Ryan]

Like, listen, the 1% better. Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

You know about this. But it's like, like it's pretty common. Yeah. The English cycling team, you know, if you look at the whole bike and try to make it substantially better, it's really hard because it's already a great bike. But if you break everything down to its components, make everything 1% better, put it all back together.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You come up with something pretty cool. And that one, that's just a cool mentality to have. And I think the best contractors, crews, operators, etc have that mentality. They're always looking to get better. Always looking to get better. But what you said too, just having that conversation.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Is something I'm in so many morning meetings in the construction industry, mining industry. Very rarely do I hear one that's different. Very rarely do I hear discussion about what happened yesterday. Very rarely do I hear discussion about what might happen today and what we need to be considering. Like it's usually very similar slips, trips and falls, stay off your phone, so on and so forth. And it bums me out because that's such a great opportunity just to talk about like, hey, how'd the Day yesterday go.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

What'd we do? Well, what didn't we do? Well, it's, it doesn't even take that much time.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it makes, it makes everything so much more productive.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we, we, we do it that on the project level. We have morning huddles where we do that. But we accidentally discovered this. We stumbled across it. We do it with the whole company now. We, we were a couple years back, we were struggling. You know, we would have good discussions with our superintendents, they would come in. But it's like the messaging is we're struggling to get to the foreman because the foremen are all on the job sites. You know, they're not back in office meetings. And like, well, you know, so. And it kind of came out of COVID like, well, gosh, we're all on teams now. We all, why don't we have a morning huddle on teams like 7am and we still have it to this day. It's like, hey guys, shout outs. Let's hear some shout outs. Well, one guy or some gal recognizes someone else and then we'll do lessons learned. Give us a lesson Lear and guys like, oh hey, if you're getting pipe from so and so man, we discovered some pipe that not you couldn't see it in the naked eye, but it was out of ovality and we had an issue here and so we ended so like lessons learned and shout outs and then our president who runs it, like a five minute leadership lesson or something, talking about something and then we wrap it up with a dig deeper. That's kind of our motto that we say all the time. And so it's only like seven or eight minutes meeting.

[Aaron]

This is every day.

[Ryan]

Every day. But what we found was, you know, we were thought we were just going to be talking to the foreman. Well, all the foreman's guys are standing around because they're all on iPads. And so it was the whole field.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

And it built this camaraderie and this sharing of lessons learned and got in my feedback sessions, people were like, oh, I love it because I got to see what's going on with this job. And I'm hearing this and we feel like this big team. And so it's like, like sometimes you just stumble across things that you know and the unintended consequences. But it's, it's where we can share that. We always talk about lessons learned. Okay. What. Any lessons learned from yesterday. And it's amazing they guys come up with stuff like I had no idea.

[Aaron]

That's huge.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You've done. And you say you've done quite a bit with Jason Schroeder.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we did.

[Aaron]

Yeah. For a while.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Every time I talk to him, it like my brain hurts because he's just.

[Ryan]

So much smarter, but his brain is. He is wide open. That brain is always.

[Aaron]

I don't know. Yeah, he lives in a different world. It's just like way beyond wherever I've been. But I feel like. Was that. When was that. When did you get on the whole Lean thing in the first place? Has it been quite a while?

[Ryan]

Well, you know, back when we were a small company. I mean, I've always been a reader and a learner and I, you know, you know, I was kind of pushing it when it was, you know, we're a 30, 40 person company and it was kind of hard and, you know, but we were just muscling through. But, you know, we really doubled down. You know, we went through this. And my story, I talk about the Valley of Darkness and we were in some really, really rough times and that's when we kind of came out. I mean, the, the impact to the company was huge. I'm like, okay, how do I learn from this and come out and just be way better and make this all up? So looking at everything and that's when we got connected with Jason. And I'd known all about Lean for a long time, but that's when I came across the two second Lean book. And then we started doing a bunch of different things. Jason helped us with some of them. We came up with some on our own and came up with our whole Elevate 20 project delivery system that we trademarked and kind of came through this Valley of Darkness. But it was like everything and anything looking at the business like we gotta. And that's when became completely transparent, sharing all the financials with the entire company. And so just coming up with a process, the right processes and the right people to, to come out of this valley and then make it up too. And that's ultimate. Well, a big part of why my decision was to become employee owned too is like we had people who were just going through the battle day in and day out and stuck it out and stayed loyal. I'm like, there's no way I can sell this business to someone else that I can't guarantee the culture and the future of the company, not to private equity or strategic buyer or whoever. So. But it was that and that valley, that was like kind of about a four or five year time frame, you know, the very bottom was about 2018. Coming out of it, we got punched in the nose a little bit with COVID but.

[Aaron]

But that wasn't that long ago.

[Ryan]

No, it really wasn't.

[Aaron]

Huh. And you, and that was, I mean, you were cutting it pretty damn close then. Like company was nearly non existent at that point.

[Ryan]

Yes, very, very, very close. I basically like sold every single thing I had, took every bit of debt I could. Thank goodness for the ppp. Sure. In a way. I mean, if it wasn't for Covid, we probably wouldn't be talking right here.

[Aaron]

Is that right?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Quite honestly, I'm like, we needed every one of those dollars. And I had some peers in the construction industry. I was in Vistage, which is business peer group. And I got some personal loans from some people who were in the business. They're like, bet on me. And I mean, we lost all our bonding. Really, in one day.

[Aaron]

Really?

[Ryan]

Yeah. Just like we had a great, I thought we had a pretty good meeting and then I got called the next day like, oh, they're done.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I'm like, yeah, they don't, they don't care.

[Ryan]

No. Well, don't say that. Because they were the first one to give me a Christmas card that, that Christmas season. You believe that? Yeah. Five months later, that was the first Christmas card. I was like, you, you gotta be kidding me.

[Aaron]

But I remember reading Bob Chapman's book Everybody Matters. He has a similar story. Like, oh, you know, the bankers were my best friends until they call you one day and say, hey, we're just, we're not going to do business with you anymore. It's, you know, no hard feelings, but we, yeah. And it's like, what are you, what are you talking about? Like, you've been a great customer for however many years, but that doesn't matter at all.

[Ryan]

I know. Yeah. And it's, you know, I say our mantra is we're a people first company. We're people first company. And yeah, a lot of times it's, I'm talking about our people, right. Our employee owners, but as people in general. Because that night when I got the news, I called another good friend of mine and he was in the surety business. And the only reason I wasn't using him is because when I bought Petticoat Contracting, that's how it became Petticoat Schmidt. I bought a small company. I just stuck with the existing one, the broker at least. And I called and he's like, hey, I'll be in your office at 10 o' clock tomorrow morning. And we Put together a plan where we cobbled together a small little surety line. Took a few years to finally get back up to a real surety. But, I mean, talk about relationships that have people like that. Between that and the guy who loaned me a pile of money and the people who did help out when I went through that valley, there are some people who did not.

[Aaron]

You find out quick. You find out really quick, which I just. It's not fun during, but it's very helpful after.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You know, who to. Yeah. Who to get closer to, who to stay away from. And. And I also get it. Like, I understand. I try not to take. I've definitely taken things personally. I try not to, though, because that's not very productive. But it's like. It's also just. It's just helpful, like.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like the saying, like, when people tell you who they are, listen, it's like, oh, I thought this was something it wasn't. Yeah, now I know. And now I can just go over here instead. But, yeah, during. It's not nearly that much fun.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And you're spot on, too, because some of the people are like, what? Where'd you go? I was like, yeah. I mean, I didn't have enough energy to get wrapped around the axle about them. I just had to focus on the energy of getting it right. You know, every day, walking into the punch and trying to figure out, oh, my God, how am I going to get this chip righted?

[Aaron]

What got you into it in the first place?

[Ryan]

So that's a good question.

[Aaron]

Because 2018 was pretty good.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Wasn't it?

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was the wrong clients. So we start, you know, I bought Petticoat Contracting in 2007. I'd been in the industry working for another company for 17 years and. And I left and then bought this company. We started out real small and things were going pretty good. I didn't have this big entrepreneurial wall. I had a climb to get going. We were going along pretty good. And then in about 2016, we just had like three jobs and there was a couple of other ones, but three primary jobs with just bad clients. And all three of these had. Had. Well, two of them had differing site conditions. Very. How should I say? There's not a spirit of partnership. Sure. Basically it was like, oh, differing site condition. Instead of, you know, stay, you know, stepping up to their duty to investigate, which is their duty, they basically pound sand. We'll see in court. File the claim.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

Good luck. Yeah. And. And we prevailed in principle, they're like, oh, you're right. So let's settle. Right? So 30 cents on the dollar, basically. Three jobs. Two of them were differing site conditions. One of them was a terrible design. It was a sidewalk design on a 20 inch thick mass concrete pour, which we said, that's not gonna work. They said, nope, pour it, pour it. And anyhow, so like I said, all of them, we prevailed in principle, but settling 30 cents on a dollar and kind of cut it. So we were kind of didn't make money a couple years and then lost a pot like an 18 at the very bottom. And so then it was like, okay, we. Who we working for? How are we doing our jobs? How are we vetting opportunities? And we had done plenty of that work before, but it was just. When it went bad, there was no spirit of partnership. And it just. So it was, you know, if there was a book to read about a turnaround or how to run a business or how to. I've read it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And every day, just walking into the punch, lost our bonding. Just sold anything and everything that had any value. I had a compl.

[Aaron]

Because, I mean, when you lose your bonding, though, for people that don't understand, you can't do a lot. You can't go build very much without. Without that.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Fortunately, we were doing some private work, subdivisions, and then some. Some people weren't requiring bonds, so we had some of that work and we were able to cobble together like maybe a $2 million bond here and there. You know, I mean, I mean, those jobs I'm talking about were 14 million, was one 17 was the other one was 10. So they're pretty big jobs all at about the same time, all of them. So it was like the timing and the size and they were bid great. Those were some of the best bid jobs on bid day. They looked like winners.

[Aaron]

Sure. And probably big jobs for you at the time.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, they were. Yeah, for us. So, man, I just looked hard at like, okay, how we were doing our work, know that. And, you know, we had grown where we probably outgrew some of the people we had. And I brought some new people on. We moved some people around. Some people we had to exit the company and. And then just get really focused. And that's when we started doing eos and then the great game of business. And I got completely transparent because it's like, okay, I can either, you know, not share the financials and people can assume or guess how bad we're doing or at least if I show the financials, it's only as bad as it really is. I could see people envisioning it way worse. And so I was showing a ton of negative numbers. Like, but guys, here's the plan. This is what we're gonna do. Here's the plan to get out of this. And some of the most impactful things that I've ever heard were people who stayed loyal to me going. And during that time, like you just mentioned, other people were very profitable and paying out big bonuses to their teams. And we were not. Cause we didn't. But people stayed with us. They're like, oh, I believe in Ryan. I believe in Ryan. And that to me was like that, you know, and fast forward. That's why, you know, we're going. Employee ownership. But anyhow. So, yeah, navigating through that became completely transparent. Sharing the financials. I always shared it, but usually with a leadership team. But this. Everyone, the whole company.

[Aaron]

I. I want to talk about that. But first, how. How was that time period for you personally?

[Ryan]

That was the toughest part of my life. So, I mean, I. Laying in my bed, staring at the ceilings, not telling anyone. Staring, yeah. Not sleeping.

[Aaron]

Yeah, Been there.

[Ryan]

And chest pains that. I'm like, oh, this is not good. Because I was cutting all the costs I could in the company. Which one of them was a of lot life insurance policy on me. I'm like, oh, I don't. I'm like, do I cut that? Because I'm not feeling really good. I think I might stroke out here. And I did drop the pre. We had flexible premium payments, so I dropped it to the very lowest I could. But I was. I mean, those are the thoughts I was having. And then like I said, I was in this Vistage group, which is a group of guys and gals that, you know, we're all in business together. And they were the first people I told. I said, guys, I got a problem here. I said, there's a. I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. And it's. It is. It's a train. I'm. Because I saw what was happening with the cash and these jobs were not getting. They were getting worse. And they're like, well, let's have an emergency meeting. And they're like, well, have you told Jill, you know, my wife? I'm like, I ain't told anyone. I mean, usually you're the first ones I've. Well, you need to go home and tell her. And I did. I said, honey, I'm facing. It's bad. And we could lose it all. And she said, well, doesn't matter, as long as we're still together. And I'm like, other than saying yes, when we got married, that was the best thing she's ever told me. I'm like, thank you. I said, because I gotta get busy fixing this and this. But, yeah, it was brutal. And then, yeah, just, like, not sleeping, trying to figure it out, trying to stay positive every day and that. Just every day I'd put my feet on. On the floor, getting out of bed and just walk into the punch. Walk into the punch. Walk into the punch. And you just think you'd get a little traction and something else would hit you. So, yeah, it was brutal. It was brutal. And just like, every day, I'd go straight to those job sites and, you know, not that, you know, I think I'm going to profess that I can go fix it, because our guys in the field can do anything and everything. They do way better than I ever could. Could. But just being there, like, all right, guys, we got a tiger by the tail and go through it. But literally, yeah, like, if anything I had. That. Had any equity, I sold. I refinanced our entire fleet of equipment. We're big John Deere people. And so I just restructured all the debt and with John Deere credit, and thank goodness they did it. But I had to pay a lot higher interest rate, but stretched out the payments, and if there was any, you know, like I said, either I sold it or I mortgaged it or whatever, just then put all this. Trying every bit of cash I could. So, yeah, it was tough. It was brutal.

[Aaron]

Yeah. When you started to. So you started to share everything financially, start being transparent financially when it was bad, like, you didn't wait to turn it around, and then like, hey, look at these great numbers. They're going up.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So the numbers were not great that you were sharing.

[Ryan]

Oh, they were horrific.

[Aaron]

With. And you were sharing it with the whole company.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so, like, what. What were those numbers like? Like what? Like, what were you sharing? Like, the numbers. Not. Not well. Numbers. Numbers.

[Ryan]

But, yeah, well, I mean, the net profit. I mean, the profit. Yeah. And we lost, like, 2,000 engines. Worse. We lost millions. Yeah, millions. And. But I was like, all right, guys, but this is what we're doing. You know, here's the plan. You know, we're not bidding this type of. We've got a plan. We're fighting these. You know, we're. We know we're right. We're gonna prevail, you know, but it's.

[Aaron]

Still probably pretty scary.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To pull the curtain back. Like listen, were in deep shit, I have to guess.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, thank goodness it all worked out. But I believe that, like I said, that the Great Game of Business is a phenomenal book and it's a way to run a business and it's one of the best when it comes to open book management. Jack Stack had a, the guy who wrote it and still is an active part of that business and, and basically had the same thing. I was like, oh my God. I mean this thing's a massive. And they were SRC's, a manufacturing company. But same thing. It's like, man, if I don't tell them, they're going to think it's a lot worse. But collectively as a group, we're going to be better off versus me alone trying to fix this thing and everyone else think we're just fine. Right. And operating that way.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it, it's, it's counterintuitive at face value, like well, no, I need to protect everybody. But it works with you, I think in two ways. One, it allows everybody to row in the same direction, which is so valuable. And two, I think it gives you a lot more credibility because it's quite interesting. Like most people in business will say they're very honest but rarely is business honest, I've found. And it's not people intentionally lying, it's more so withholding of information.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And most people are doing it with good intentions, but it ends up going in a bad, in a bad way. Because like you said, then there's all these alternative narratives, like without. If there's a gap in information, people fill in the gap.

[Ryan]

Exactly. And yeah, your point, it's not dishonesty, but it's a lack of transparency.

[Aaron]

Yeah, true.

[Ryan]

Transparency is super powerful. Super powerful. And that's, you know, I've spoken last year at the summit and to what our transparency looks like. And once you can get there and we're freakishly to one side. Right. You know, if there's spectrum of transparent or not transparent. I know, you know, we're frequently over to one side, but we had a freakishly, you know, eventful journey to get there and. But I do. But when you're there, I mean there's a tremendous amount of power into it because I can sit back and my team now, they see it all. So to me it's very, it's like I'm not carrying the load. I'm. And it's evenly distributed. If we're not doing well. Everyone sees it and why and where it is and the impact of, okay, not meeting a schedule or a sub, you know, not showing up in time. Because every Monday, in our best meeting of the week, we project the next two months. Every PM does. We call them earned revenue shout outs. Every job, they'll adjust it every Monday for the next two months and it might go up or down. And it's being adjusted real time. Our accounting department's doing it on teams and like, oh, well, it's $450,000 for the month of May. Well, it was 500 last Monday. What went down? Well, paving sub got delayed. Enter it in. See how the gross profit gets adjusted. The whole gross profit of the company, G. And a net profit. And then our incentive because we share profits. And so everyone sees like, okay, well, man, if we would have just done a better job of getting that sub to show up. Or maybe it's the wrong sub, you know, maybe we need to be working with someone else. So it's, you know, everyone sees it and to be able to bear the burden across everyone and really understand, you know, what's impacting earned revenue and gross profits and net profit. And. But you got to educate. You got to teach people what that means too, though.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And we, We've shared a lot. One, I like, one of our values is transparency wins. And it has been since I created our values. I love it. I think it's so freeing. Like you said, I mean, like, we, like, sold part of our business earlier this year. And when somebody hears sold business, they think money bags. You know, the truck dropping off a bunch of bags of money, like the cartoon, the big money sign, the money kind of coming up top. And it's. And it's like, that wasn't the case. That wasn't how the deal was structured at all. As you, as you know, when you sell, like, when you sell things, you don't. You don't get a big check like, or like with the giant checks.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

It's not really how it works. If we were a traditional business, though, I would know that, but I wouldn't be able to talk about it. But it was like, I have a weekly update to the company video weekly update. And I was able to just like, here is exactly how the deal came together, and here's what it means for everybody, and here's why we structured it that way. And you can just share it. So it's like, now there's no alternative narrative because here's the information. Like, it's it's. Here it is. Like, there's so. And if you have questions about it, let's discuss.

[Ryan]

But.

[Aaron]

But what you said, too. You. You. You have to educate people. Like, it. It's. It's more work. Like, just giving people information is by no means the end of it, because the finances within a business are way different than personal finances. So it's like. Like, you can. There's stuff that's common in business that would be. That. That would be getting you foreclosed on in your personal life. Like, there's all these things, and cash.

[Ryan]

Works different, but where you can tie it. And it's hard because you got to figure out how you explain it. Right. I found when you can tie it to personal finance, it helps. Right. And to your point, it's hard because you got to find out a way to communicate it where people understand it. And if you can't, just send your CFO up there and say, hey, talk to them about it often.

[Aaron]

Yeah, here's our P and L. Yeah, exactly.

[Ryan]

And. And it's like, you know, you gotta. And like, so that's our ESOP communication committee. We're constantly, you know, putting information out there to hopefully improve and just that. What that education looks like. And I've done like, Finance 101, Finance 201, but I'm like. And we were talking about, like, we gotta ramp it up. I mean, we need to do it more frequently, and it can't be just me. And we gotta find different ways of explaining it. And so, yeah, so it's a tack that. On top of building stuff and. Yeah, but it's worth it. It is worth every bit of. At least from my perspective.

[Aaron]

Well, but I've thought so much about. You're one of the only companies that I know that does this. But to me, it's like, why wouldn't every construction company do this? Because it's like, well, I don't know how my project's performing.

[Ryan]

Yeah. You know, the Valley of Darkness got us to do a lot of things. To me, it's changed me as a person because there's greatness on the other side of adversity. And I think because of that adversity, it forced me to go all the way to that side. And I'm like, oh, my God, there it is. I mean, so a lot of people aren't facing that or have not gone through that. Like, everything's going along pretty good. So why would you throw yourself out there. Oh. And put all this extra effort on the communication and the training and I mean, the way we format it up on teams, I mean, it took us a long time to get it just right, and we're still working on it to where it's really understandable because there's a lot of numbers up there. It's that adversity that forced us there. So, I mean, I totally get it, why people would not go all the way to the position we are, you know, but there.

[Aaron]

But there is not. Like, the amount of transparency in the industry is extremely low. Extremely. Like, when I worked in the. In the industry, the only way you knew, like, really, the. The only way you could judge how a project was going financially was if the project manager was pissed off or in a good mood. Like, and that sounds ridiculous, but that it was kind of true. Like, the great jobs I was on, the project manager was in a good mood and morale is good. Everybody knows it, whether you know it or not. And the turds. It was miserable. It was miserable. Or how often you see leadership as well. Like, if. If these executives are coming in, if they're leaving you alone, if they're nowhere to be found, cool. But if they're. If they're. If these. These people that you've never seen are flying in and having these meetings, you're like, what's going on here? And I'm thinking through all the projects I was on, it's like, yeah, it's kind of true. Like, the really good ones that were just killing it, you'd never see anybody because it's like, yeah, we've got it. We've got it squared away. I would have liked to see people, but. Nope. But. But the. Just the losers, the absolute monsters. Yeah, you'd have to.

[Ryan]

Yeah, well, that's the thing, too, because you really want to maximize your upside on the good ones as well as minimize the downsides and the bad ones. So to teach your people to really know the numbers and have an impact on the numbers by sharing the numbers. So you can really. They're going to run with the big ones. Right. And not like, oh, no one's showing up, so I guess we're good. Just kind of cruise along. Sure. But if everyone knows the numbers, because, you know, it's like, like, well, we can get. We can add a point or two on it here, man. We can, you know, if we continue to do good, right. That's going to help the whole company, you know, and, you know, we share the profits of the company, you know, as a formula, no cap. And it's like the rest goes into the esop, I'm like, everything that we do, good or bad, whether it's on a, you know, we're paying better defense on a bad job or better offense on a good job, it's going to help the entire company. Company, sure.

[Aaron]

So there's a. You have a profit sharing model as well? Okay.

[Ryan]

Yeah. We call it the win the year worth 30 cents of the dollar. And we track it. Everyone's won that meeting in the week on Monday. We can update it once we hit a certain profit flat number, 30 cents of every dollar goes into and we could see it get adjusted.

[Aaron]

So there's a, there's a base level of profit that you need to just keep running the company, investing, etc. Go over that.

[Ryan]

That.

[Aaron]

So every, every 30 cents then of the additional dollars goes into this profit share.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yep. It's called win the year and it's. The whole company gets it. Same way with esop, you're just pro ratter.

[Aaron]

Yeah, pro rat.

[Ryan]

And so it get, it gets adjusted in real time every Monday when we do those forecasts. So literally, if we're, if we bump up a job to earn revenue because say we got way more work in place or whatever, boom, it goes right to the bottom line.

[Aaron]

And the can see that whole company.

[Ryan]

Can see that number adjust.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Ryan]

So people know the impact of good scheduling, getting subcontracts on, out on time, you know, whatever we're doing to make that difference. So it's. And then so the other 70 cents, it's going into the ownership. Right. So sure.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

It's going in the esop.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

So everyone can see. And when I started doing that one too, never forget, I had a right after the meeting, like an AP clerk, she came up to me, she said, so Ryan, when I process an invoice through ap, like once it hits and it drives that earned revenue, so my ability to process a faster and timely fashion affects that number. I'm like, yeah, you're exactly right. She's like, I had no idea. So all of a sudden she felt like she was a part of. Of what the success or lack of success was in the company. All of a sudden she got it.

[Aaron]

She saw it, and she always has been, but she hasn't had that information to tie it together.

[Ryan]

Yeah, she thought she was just processing invoices, but now the impact of invoice not getting processed would affect that big time.

[Aaron]

The whole cap thing is, I think, really important as well. Randy's talked about that they would have a bonus program that would not Have a cap on it, which I think is that. That's very motivating.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I would say unlimited, uncapped. I mean. I mean, as good as this company does, I mean, it's just.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Interesting. The craziest thing. There's a lot of crazy things about this whole story, but. Which is why I was excited to actually talk to you about it, like, formally, because I've got bits and pieces from all the other stuff you've been doing. But the craziest thing is, like, it's 2025. That was 2018. You're selling. You're reducing your life insurance or whatever it is to save money. Seven years ago. That's not that long ago. That's not that long ago. And like, to see the company now. No one. If you didn't say that, no one would have any. And if you didn't know, you know, if I just came in from the outside, I would just make the assumption, like, well, you just have been killing it.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's. But what you said, too, is interesting about the. That extreme thing happening, pushing you to one direction, because I've also seen it push people to the other direction. It can push you to the other side as well. Like, I need to play this even closer to the chest, especially, like, 2010, I think had that. Like, really. And I get it. Like, emotionally scarred contractors. And I've seen a lot of people out of that, like, batten down the hatches even further. Like, we need to share less. We need to keep this even tighter here, which I find interesting. Like, it's pushed a lot of. A lot of companies to do a lot of great things like you guys. But then it's also pushed others to. To go into their little turtle shell.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, let's go into our shell even more, which is. I think it's just interesting how different it can be.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And I think. I mean, the reason. I mean, like I said, I just read everything and just. I mean, how. I mean, I just. Like, I got. It's funny, like, I. Between. Between the actual losses and then the opportunity cost. Like, I said, everyone else was making money then, so all the profits. Profit we did not make. Versus. And you add that to the actual losses. I mean, I'm like, oh, my God. You know, research how much it cost to send a kid to Harvard. I'm like, okay, that's equivalent to about 100 Harvard degrees. I got to be smarter than 100 Harvard grads to figure, you know, like, all right, let's get busy doing it. Right, let's get busy doing it. You know, so if there was a book on anything about it or it's, you know, and fortunately that pushed me to be the way I did. Right. Instead of, you know, being holding it closer to the chest. No, get open. Get transparent. Show it. You know, KPIs. Measure everything. Measure everything. You know, put the information in the hands of all the people doing the work. The foreman have all the information. You know, they know when they're on budget or not, and reward them for doing, you know, incent them to, you know, beat the man hours we got on the job. You know, just anything and everything we could do. And, you know, transparency and how I acted as a leader. Too empathetic, you know, transparent, genuine. I show them a vision. I'm like, yeah, this is ugly, but this is where we're going and here's how we're getting there. And just be relentless. Be relentless every day.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

And getting there. And even when, you know, maybe I wasn't so certain.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

Exude that certainty.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

You know, because I quickly realized people, man, they take a lot from just the, your body language and looks on your face. And so it was like, you know, yeah, I'm about to lose everything I've ever owned, but I still got to be positive and confident. You know, there's the hill. We're charging in the hill. We're going to get there and here's the plan. And I think, you know, people seeing that transparency too are like, wow, this is so unique, you know, so that I think helped lend to the, you know, this, the vision that they were able to see it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Because I did it so uniquely and so differently and so transparently and, and with a people first commitment to them, like, hey, that I'm going to make this right.

[Aaron]

You know, I think like what you said about even body language, I've been thinking about that for a while. I'm like, this year I just have way more energy and it's way more positive. And it's been a few things that I've changed, but it was a few. It's been a few years of a slogan at just this. It's kind of like this defeated place a little bit. Like, I didn't really realize my energy was not. It was being taken from me. So I didn't have a lot of it to give to other people. And people are, they're just very intuitive. People can read if you're all in on something or not or if you believe something. Or not. And you can. You can fool some people or you can use some big words, this and that, but over time, there's no fooling. I think people are quite smart. I think people are very intuitive, and you gotta believe what you're saying. And if you believe what you're saying, they buy into it because it's legitimate. But if you're not there, people can sniff it out. I feel like, pretty quick.

[Ryan]

Yeah. And not. And it's just like. Like, as an entrepreneur, I mean, you got a lot going on inside. And I think it just. It's easy for it to reflect out. And people notice that. They just notice it. And even to your point about the energy, too, someone mentioned that to me just the other day. Like, man, your energy's really up, Ryan, you're good, you know, and, you know, we've been out of this, you know, the Valley for a while now, but for whatever reason, I'm the. It's like, well, I appreciate that. And you start thinking it, but it just reinforces just how you show up. And I think a lot of times as the entrepreneurs, the leader, you're on front stage. You're on stage, right?

[Aaron]

You need to, whether you know it.

[Ryan]

Or not, whether you know it or not. But if you think about it, more often than not, when you go, you better be prepared to, you know, think about it. And you just. You don't want to, especially if. If it's not that big a deal, but you're just like, well, you know. Well, I got, you know, just when I think that, you know, that's the face I make. Well, don't, man, because your people are looking. People want. They want to see certainty, they want to see confidence, they want to see good energy. And, yeah, so I think about that a lot. When I go into a room, when I go into the office, when I go on a job site. That's one of the reasons, like, these feedback sessions on job sites are really good. Good, Because I'll do it. Seven in the morning, we're doing that company huddle. So I'll be in the huddle with those guys, and I'll have them all right there, and I get to talk to all of them. Because if I realized if you go on a job site and you don't stop and talk, and if you're spread out, you got multiple crews all over the job site, I won't pull up on a job site unless I'm prepared to stop and talk to every single person. Because if I don't hit that one they're not going to feel good. They're not going to appreciate that. Even if you're like, well, I got a meeting and I can't get all the way over. I mean, I've been here for like an hour and a half, so I won't even go on the job site unless I'm prepared to talk to every single person. So having them all there at one time is awesome because I can get them all there. I know they're there. And just having that feedback dialogue is really, really, really productive. But. But yeah, to your, to your point. Yeah. It's how you show up as a leader is. Is a big, big, big part.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I feel like I've talked to other people about this. Like, just driving through the job sites, almost worse than just not going. Yeah. Or talking to the, you know, the super and then leaving. Like, And I know sometimes you got to do that, but if that's the. If that's the state of, like, average state of affairs, and that happens plenty. It's like, you're almost better off just not going.

[Ryan]

And I do that a lot. If I'm going, I'm driving by a job site sometimes that, like, I don't plan to stop. Like, it's just happened to drive by on the. Where I'm going. Like, I'm like, oh, I kind of go where, like, my truck can't be seen because I don't want people to think, you know, I don't want to stop and talk to them, because I do. I just can't. But if they. They won't understand that. I'm like, just the optics of things. The optics of things are huge. And I talked to my leadership team about that. I'm like, guys, you got to think about the optics. You know, what we do and how we act and the things we say or don't do. The optics are huge.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And that's something that I've had to really be careful of. Yeah. I remember I. We had a company meeting, and we had like, a dinner before the company meeting. So we had everybody in for a few days, and I. That week, I just got clobbered. It was like travel or. I mean, I was like, I came in here and just one afternoon, just slept for a few hours. It was like the. One of the only times in my life where my body was just like, we're done. We're not. We're not doing it anymore. Just lay down. I. I don't think I've ever been like that since. But it was. Was this day. And we made a big deal. I think it might have been like a Sunday. It might have been like. But. But we wanted everybody in on Sunday night because that was like the one night we had together for as a team. And I, I was here with everybody, you know, took a nap. It was here with everybody for a few hours. And then I left a little earlier than everybody else. And, you know, the comment came in, wow, he made a big deal about everybody being here. And then he leaves early. And it's like, like I. And I want to defend myself. I'm like, well, you don't understand this and that, but it's like none of that matters.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's. That's the perception. And perception is reality. And it's like, damn it. And even I've had to keep this in mind, too, just from my word standpoint, you know, when you're the guy, you'll say something offhand. You won't think twice about it. Like, you could say something. It's not a big deal to you. And that individual can be thinking about what you just said for the next two days.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you're not going to think twice about it ever again. But then you realize they've been thinking about it for the past two days, and you're like, oh, no. And it wasn't even, like, it wasn't even what you meant or anything like that.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I've gotten in. I've gotten myself into those situations all the time, too, especially messaging people. That's where, like, there's no context.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And people can just spiral, especially people new to the company that don't. That you don't have a relationship with. You know, they're like, if you're the CEO of the company, they're putting their prior experiences with CEOs onto you. It doesn't matter how you are. They're informing you. They're informing the relationship they have with you based on the relationship they've had with everybody else. And oftentimes it's not positive.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And just all those things, especially as a young leader, I've had to understand because it's so easy to make it about you, but it's not at all about you.

[Ryan]

Yeah, Yeah. I often tried, like, you know, it's a much safer place if you lead with a question. Right. And I just think. Yeah. I think because sometimes you, as you say something, that people just take it as gospel or maybe it just doesn't come, you know, so it's like, you know, it's just best to lead. Lead with a question or just. Do I have to say anything at this point?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

You know, sit back and just observe my team and say, okay, is this team going to figure it out and operate in a fashion that makes me feel good? I have the leadership team because they're here to do it right. Leave the company. So am I good at that all the time? No.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I don't think anybody is figuring it.

[Ryan]

Out, but I think if I. When I. When I do that, I'm better.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

When I do that, I'm better.

[Aaron]

Is recruiting. How's recruiting for you guys?

[Ryan]

You know, this employee ownership is helping, I think. I mean, you're not seeing a wave. You know, it's not a huge difference. But I think when people talk about coming to work for the company and getting internal referrals, I think more people are excited. So I think that helps. We're really. I mean, we've got internal recruiters that we're really focusing on recruiting. You know, I was talking about, look at the funnel, really wide at the top and tight at the bottom. And now we're starting to use AI to screen some of these at the top, and we're pushing that more and more.

[Aaron]

Well, people are using AI to apply for jobs now, too.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. So we got a bunch of chat bots talking to each other. Yeah, yeah. So who knows what's coming out of the bottom of the funnel, right? It could be. Hey, Chad, GBT today showed up for work. Right. So who knows? But, yeah, we, you know, investing in a simulator to test skills. You know, we're even. We're putting people on job sites and getting on equipment, you know, for the longest time. I hope my insurance guy isn't listening to this, but I'm like, oh, we can't do that, because. But, you know, we just make sure that it's not in an active area, and we'll actually, you know, you could see when a guy climbs up and down on a machine, and the first thing he does or does not do.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. Kind of fumbles around a little bit.

[Ryan]

That's been helpful. And so it's still. It's still a chore. I mean, I'm not gonna say we've got it figured out or we can name our people and the amount we want, but, you know, we've got a fair amount of open seats that we're trying to fill. But I'm telling you, man, really investing in leadership, and that part of the business is huge. We've done that recently. And, you know, I think I'm like oh my gosh, that's awesome.

[Aaron]

So you'll before leadership, you'll use the simulator before people work for you to just see if they know if they're an excavator operator just to test their skills. Run the excavator.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we could do a little better job on that. We don't do it all the time. That's the goal though is like okay, that simulator not only to help train but also test people just some basic skills, you know that they, that's quite good. They say they are.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's quite good.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

With the leadership how are you approaching.

[Ryan]

That for like foreman, superintendent? You know we do, we use one, a culture index which is like a personality profile similar to the predictive index just to see if what, you know, type of profile they are. And it's amazing how uncannily predictive that stuff is. You know just really pushing background checks and reference checks and getting as much as we can on people and get a good feel for them that they're the right fit culturally and technically. But man if they're going to be a leader in the company we want that culture fit big time. So we've pushed and have gotten pretty good at, at promoting from within too. We've, we, I mean we hired a full time training and development manager almost two years ago now and she's got staff under her. We pulled out one of her better foremen and put them in a full time training role. We just really doubled down. We got a training yard called the Forge where we built a classroom with skills, you know, all types of, you know, hands on skills training permanently set up. You know obviously with you guys with all the build with videos, I mean we really pump that. We reward people a lot. We've got big incentive plans. They can earn PTO or extra pay.

[Aaron]

Really?

[Ryan]

Yeah, most people take the money but and then also gamified a little bit too. So I mean there's a lot of people who participate. So you know we, and we've got booklets on every position in the company listing all the skill sets. So if they demonstrate they've mastered it with their superintendent or foreman signing off they'll be eligible for promotion. So a lot of these we're promoting through, take them from hands on skilled position and maybe take them to a crew lead and a foreman. So we've gotten a little bit of traction there from doing some more internal promotions. It's been a slog though. It's been some years and investing in Those programs too. So not to say that we haven't stopped hiring from outside, but man, if we could do it, promote people from the inside, it just goes way more smoother.

[Aaron]

The booklets. So you've defined like superintendent role, for example. This is what a superintendent does. And here's the skill set necessary to be a superintendent here.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we've got it for pipe crew, survey crew, grade crew, mechanical crew. Yeah, really? And down. And then for like the PM and superintendent. It's like a spiral bound book.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

It's substantial.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Ryan]

And those other positions, I mean, literally, if you're a tailman on a pipe crew, you go to the pipe crew booklet and it's like for the tailman, here's all these areas of competency that you need to demonstrate, you know, to be eligible to move up to say like a pipe layer or another position on the, on the crew.

[Aaron]

That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's very helpful.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, it is. Because, you know, it's like it puts that in their hands because we have, we found that we have so many things, but, you know, we've got to get the people if, like, if they want a raise. You're like, okay, well show me where you've done the effort to, you know, show me your build Wet videos. Show me, you know, what you've completed in this book.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

Well, if they haven't, that's a different discussion. If they have, you're like, awesome.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And like these, you know, we put on the build whip platform. We do our own, we call them Micro Monday. So before we even discovered the build with video, we were doing our own little mini videos. We called them Micro Mondays. And we would do like a series on, you know, shooting grade or cutting embeveling pipe or Intro to Excel or Jocko's, you know, leadership things. And we would gamify give out awards. And again, that's when a lot of the PTO and the money at the end of the year, if you did so many over the course of the year, and we'd have a leaderboard and I always said, hey, if you, I look at that leaderboard and if I see you at the top of that leaderboard and your give a crap meter is pegged over here, it's like, what are we doing to move this guy up?

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

We've had guys come in at like labor positions who are now like mid level, upper mid level managers and leaders. You know, largely you saw what they were doing year after year. I mean, if they're that Committed. I mean, heck, yeah, we're going to move them up. So that's been a helpful tool. And. And then obviously, once we were discovered, you guys, years ago and, you know, coupled that together and so doing a lot of that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you guys have been on for a while. No, this year, like I was telling you, it's going to get real fun. We're getting some things dialed in here, and it's a lot better. Yeah, I thought. But I talked to younger guys about that all the time. Like, I just try to give them the business owner perspective. Like, listen, you know, you're supposed to do your job.

[Ryan]

Job.

[Aaron]

So that's like, that's what you're here to do. It's. What are you doing beyond that at work and outside of work that I'm going to be considering before, like, the people that are hungriest here, doing more than they should be doing, and then they're just hungry from a development standpoint in general, they're just making themselves a better person. Like, those are the people I'm going to be considering first. Without it. 10 out of 10 times when it comes to, hey, we've got an open position. We need somebody else to lead here. Let's give them a shot. They're hungry. They're proving themselves. It's. It's never, oh, they have potential. Maybe they'll lap. Like, they're doing their job well. Maybe they'll do more. Like, that's not how it works anywhere. I feel like I. There's somebody I know very well within my world, they want to be a leader, and they think them doing their job really well qualifies them to be a leader. And I have to have the conversation with them at some point. Like, listen, that's. That's not actually how it works. Like, they don't work here. They're on the outside, but it's like, if. Like, what are you doing to be that, to be in that leadership position? All right, you're doing your job well. Cool. Yeah. That's like one box to check. What else?

[Ryan]

Yeah, what else? I love this saying, like, there's two types of people that don't get ahead in the world. People who don't do what they're supposed to do, and people who only do what they're supposed to do. Right. And I. So I speak to every new hire orientation every week and first two hours, and I get to know their family, and we talk all this stuff. And then I talked about the company and the culture, and I always, when I show them These books and I show them our. What we're doing in training development. I'm like, guys, I'm gonna let you know secret here. I love to pay people a ton of money. I love to pay people, but it's not up to me. It's up to the individual who provides the value in the marketplace. So if you develop your skills and provide a ton of value and I don't pay you well, someone else is going to and I'll be an idiot. But I don't want to be an idiot. I want to be the guy who pays you well. And by the, the way, here's all the stuff that we're gonna do to help you. I mean, all the stuff. And I started talking about the build with videos and our forge training yard and the simulator and the booklets and our full time training development manager that's sitting right next to you.

[Aaron]

And it's like, yeah, but you gotta. It's like, you gotta meet me in the middle.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Hey, I'm. I'm gonna go to the middle, but you gotta. Yeah, you gotta meet me there. If you don't meet me there, I can only do so much. Yeah. It's pretty exciting to see what you all are doing. It's super exciting. There's really not many other contractors doing that as much as you guys are really. Like, there's some great contractors out there doing some great stuff, but you're definitely not the. Not the norm. Close.

[Ryan]

And it's when I started telling my story at some of the workshops, the dirt world, and it's. Yeah. And I guess, you know, having lived the whole valley of darkness. Well, one telling that story, people are like, blown away. I've gotten so many responses and, you know, have told my story on multiple platforms, other podcasts, and I've been through the dirt world, which has been awesome. Yeah. I'm starting to realize, like, oh, wow. We. To me, it was just survival. And like, all right, we got to find a better way to do it. Literally, like, this is a result of me trying to be better than 100 Harvard graduates. And, you know, not to say we got it all right. And we're constantly tweaking it. We're constantly looking at ourselves and evaluating it and trying to get better. But it's. But yeah, it's like, I look back, I'm like, this is pretty cool. And, you know, and now it's kind of got me in. I say, I'm Ryan 2.0, especially selling to the employees. And this is almost like that missing piece of the full circle that, like, oh, my God, where do we go? This is awesome. So we've got this great process and culture and, you know, transparency, and now we've coupled it with employee ownership and man. So where we're going now, it's. It's like I said, it's got me even more excited and it's a real exciting place to be.

[Aaron]

Well, it seems like it's only getting more fun.

[Ryan]

It is. Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

I'm loving it.

[Ryan]

And I'm really enjoying the. This getting out and speaking and talking about it and, you know, saying, hey, this is. You don't have to go through what I did to get here, but you could still get here. In fact, I would suggest. Not tight. Yeah. And, and, and, and how can I help the industry by doing that? You know, talking, telling my story and, you know, then just like, hey, no, it's. It's a great place to be.

[Aaron]

Sure. Right on. Well, if people want to come to work for the company, they can just go to the website.

[Ryan]

They can. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Sweet. And then they can. Are you on LinkedIn? Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan]

You.

[Aaron]

You show in there.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Sweet.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I listen to you. Yeah.

[Aaron]

How about.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we. We've got like a internal. We. It's called Beekeeper internal kind of social media. It's really cool.

[Aaron]

Oh, cool.

[Ryan]

And, and it's, you know, because I've always sent out emails and videos, but this is. We got like 75 to 8. 78 engagement throughout the company.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Ryan]

And where it's like, the email's like 10%. And so we're the whole company. Yeah, the whole company. Every single person. Because we got people posting what they'll do on the weekends.

[Aaron]

Oh, cool.

[Ryan]

Stuff on the jobs and, like, contests and like, when I do those feedback sessions, I'm posting this and I. They're like, Ryan, you're like the number one guy. I'm like, yeah, yeah. I'm the chief explanation officer, chief excitement officer, whatever you want to call it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

But you know, that. And then LinkedIn, I try and stay pretty active talking about especially people first and.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ryan]

And this kind of pushing that.

[Aaron]

Sweet. Well, I appreciate your tips and I'm glad it's worked. Yeah, yeah, it's been. Yeah. I had my friend Glenn in here a few days ago. He's like, yeah, I've just been doing what you've said to do. I was like, that's fantastic.

[Ryan]

Great.

[Aaron]

That's great news. Yeah, yeah. LinkedIn's unbelievable. Unbelievable. It's. It's such a fun tool. It's fun. Like, everybody's like, it's. Oh, it's gonna be this big chore. I'm like, no, it's not. You just talk about your people.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Just talk about what the heck's going on in your company. Like, it's. It's. It should be fun. Like, make it. That shouldn't be a chore.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's me. It's just kind of getting it. It's like, if you're excited about it. All right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

That's something you should share.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. Sweet.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, appreciate you stopping by, man.

[Ryan]

It's great to be up here.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And hopefully we get down your neck of the woods one of these days.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Come on. Jacksonville. Great place to be.

[Aaron]

Right on.

[Ryan]

Yeah. We'll show you around.