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- [00:00]
A
For the first time ever, I am thrilled to say we have an official sponsor for the Dirt Talk podcast, and that's Ariat. I've worn Ariat boots on every job site I visited over the years, traveling in them across five continents. More importantly, I have yet to find a single project where working folks, unlike me, are not wearing Ariat boots and workwear in every condition imaginable. And there's really good reason for that, and that's because it's phenomenal stuff. And the more I've learned about Ariat and the company, the more I've loved their brand. So with this, Ariat is offering any dirt talk listener 10% off their next Ariat order at ariat.com dirttalk that's 10% off boots, jeans, and workwear@arianiat.com dirttalk or at the link in this episode's description. With that, let's get to the show. Have you always been around construction or where'd you.
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B
No. So how.
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A
You're more of, like, a sophisticated guy. You're a business guy. I feel.
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B
I appreciate that. I appreciate that, because I don't know if the people that know me really well would think that.
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A
Well, yeah. And that's not to say people that have always been in construction can't have a certain sophistication, but I feel like you've been around, seen a bunch of stuff.
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B
That's a huge compliment coming from you when I see you traveling around the world and seeing it. So I fell into construction. I literally fell into construction. My family was not in construction. And I don't think that, if anything, when I was growing up, like, I think one of the problems that. That we have with my generation and then maybe ending at your generation, it's gotten better. I. I believe is that when I wasn't doing well as a kid, my kids, my. My parents said, well, do you want to be a ditch digger? Do you want to be a truck driver?
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A
Sure.
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B
Do you want to work at a gas station? Like, those were the comments that were made. And. And the first business that I had was a trucking company. So it was ironic that I distinctly remember my parents saying, if you don't get good grades, you're going to be a truck driver. And. And then we started a trucking company.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so it was. And that's how I got into construction. So I got into construction because I made a poor investment and I bought a couple of dump trucks with a guy that promised the world to me. I was. I was in Arizona. So I grew up In Kansas City. As soon as I graduated high school, I flew out to Arizona and moved to Arizona. When I was there, I had made some money, and I met a guy at a hotel lobby that was literally the downtown. And. And, you know, I meet this guy, and he's talking about trucks and dump trucks and this and that, and then through that conversation, end up meeting another person. And we invest essentially in trucking company, but it was. We bought two dump trucks, so. Two dump trucks. 20.
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A
Oh, wow. Yeah. You're pretty green.
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B
Yes, I was very green prior to that. I had kind of always had an entrepreneurial spirit. And when people ask me, they're like, well, why did you start a business? Why did you do what you did? I did what I did because nobody would hire me in the role that I actually wanted to be in.
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A
That's fair.
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B
And so when I really look at it, I listened to a. I listened to a podcast. My sister sent it to me probably six months ago, and it was a Navy SEAL talking about why he was a Navy seal. And. And what he said is. He said, this guy. And I didn't love the podcast, but I did love this part, is that he said, I'm not. He said, every. You know, these Navy SEALs, for the most part, are getting into it for the betterment of the country, and they're giving. And that's like the general Navy SEAL person. They're doing it for somebody else. He said, I did it for me. I wanted to tell people that I was a Navy seal.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I wanted, like, just cut. Just cut through the crap. Like, this is why I did it. I did it for me. It was selfish. It didn't have anything to do with, you know. And I'm summarizing what he said.
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A
Sure.
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B
But. But when I look at why I started businesses when I was young, it was because I didn't want to work for somebody, and I wanted to be the guy in charge. And so the only way to do that was to do it myself. I didn't have a college degree, and so what was I going to do? When I was. When I was younger, I kind of did different little sales roles of different things that I had started these little businesses. When I moved to Arizona, I started a business that was selling waxes to Harley dealerships and sold that business. And that's how I had the money to invest in. And the trucks. What I figured out very quickly after investing in the trucks is that I also needed to move there and run the trucks. I knew nothing about it.
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A
Okay.
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B
I didn't know how to drive a truck. I didn't know anything about dump trucks. I remember driving by the, the one of the competitors yards and looking at the trucks and this was in 2004 and seeing all the drop axles below the trucks and going, I never even seen those before. And here I had two trucks that had those axles. You know, in Arizona at that time, they didn't have trucks with tag axles. So I fly out, I look at this, and I look at these two L9000 Ford trucks that I bought and was like, oh, this is going sideways, it's going poorly. Now I have to start running it. And that's how I got into construction. So it started that way. And so it was. I was just in over my head. And we pushed forward from there.
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A
I think when people ask to like, why you started or how you got going, they're always looking for that, like, bigger answer. But for me, I've always struggled with it a little bit because it was purely selfish. It's like, I don't know, I didn't want to be told what to do. I was tired of being told to do. I just wanted to do whatever I wanted to do and I wanted to be around machines all the time. This was my way to do it. There you go. Like, it really wasn't that much bigger.
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B
Yeah. And that's what. In doing what you like doing, then you're successful at it in the end. I had amazing mentors throughout my career. I mean, just, just these champions of industry. And I really do feel that way. And one of them being Mike Sheedy. So Mike Sheedy owns Sheedy Paving in Columbus, Ohio. So our story's a little bit fragmented, a little bit up and down and whatever, but we went from having dump trucks to acquiring a paving company and, and then going into excavating. When I acquired a paving company, it was much like the. The trucking company. I had no business being in paving. I knew nothing about it. 22, 23 years old at the time. And Mike Sheedy, that owned Sheedy Paving, which was a well established in like 1930, I mean, I think that they were paving with bricks when his grandfather started it.
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A
Sure.
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B
And we were doing trucking for him and we. He called me into his office because on the side of all of my dump trucks, I made them a billboard for our new paving company.
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A
Nice.
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B
Well, now all of a sudden I have my paving company on his paving job. So he called me and said, I got to meet you, you know, first of all, if you're going to have your trucks, you know. So he said, you're competing with me. I said, I am competing with you. I said, but am I going to lose your trucking business? He's. He said, no, but you're a shitty paver, so how about I help you out a little bit? And Mike took an interest in, in me and I look at, I look at, you know, and he. I was in his office every day for years and he helped me build my business and he didn't ask for anything in return. He became one of the best mentors and most amazing people that I've just ever known. And he had this incredibly amazing paving company on his own. He didn't need to do it for me. Um, and he. So he actually passed away in October, so of this last year. But the, the thing that stands out to me about it is that man loved what he was doing every day of his life. Like he really did in like mentoring and helping and coaching. And he pushed me to where I am today. And some of the things that he said to the 23 year old me, now the 43 year old me looks back on that I thought were ridiculous.
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A
Sure.
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B
And I'm like, holy shit, he was right. Even those things, you know, and so it was just having, having those mentors, you know, before, I don't think we were recording what we were talking about. You know, there's just some people we're talking about. Doug de Clusin, the founder of Sunland.
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A
Yeah.
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Having people. Each, each one of these people throughout my career has taught me these little things and they've invested time in me that have helped me out massively. And, and so then like, it's. It's our turn to do that for others and it's our turn to like push that down so that this can continue. Because that's, that's how I just feel like that's how the legacy. And you talk about the dirt world and like how that moves forward and everything. The onus is on us. I feel like anybody that's in it, whether you're 25 or 45 or 65, if you want to see this world keep moving, like you need to be looking at that next person and what they need. And sometimes the next person's not younger than you, sometimes they're older than you.
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A
Sure.
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B
Which I'm sure you're feeling that you see.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm 30 now, so I'm starting to get up the next turn. No, I'm asked A lot by younger people, how they find those people to mentor them. And, like, the biggest piece of advice I have is, like, be worth mentoring. Like, you have to be worth it for, like, you're not just gonna walk up to some random kid and, all right, you know, Jimmy, let's go. You look worth. Like, you have to. I feel like it's a lot more. It's a lot more attractive to pour into somebody that's already proving themselves in a way, even if it's in a small way, because you. You want. Like, your time's valuable and. And what you know is valuable. You don't want to just be pouring into people that might squander it.
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B
I feel like you only have so much to give, so you only have so much to give, and you only have so much time, effort, and. And energy to give, and we only do. And so I also think on the. On the other side, knowing, maybe knowing that and recognizing that, you know, in it is that, like, I. And you can tell when somebody's taking the initiative.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And asking for a mentor is not taking that initiative, like, asking, exactly, will you mentor me? Yeah, that's not. I don't know that I have had anybody that I have ever worked with or. And there's no greater, like, honor. There's no. There probably is a greater honor, but it is a very great honor to have somebody come to you and say, hey, would you work with me on this? Would you help me out? Would you mentor me? But that makes you feel real warm and fuzzy inside, because I think that we've pushed so much that people need mentors, that they're like, oh, I need this, and I want you to check this box for me, and I want you to do this.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I don't know that anybody that I have ever worked with has ever asked me that. I think that it's just these people show up and they start asking questions, and they start. And then you start pouring into them. And I also think that at our business, like, my job running our organization is to make sure that I'm providing opportunities for the people in that organization, internally and externally. Because sometimes you're going to get a hold of somebody that is maybe outpacing you, or maybe we'd be better somewhere else. And it's our job to make sure that they are moving in the right direction for their career. And having that mentality, I think, changes the dynamic of a. Of a complete company. And because it pushes down to, you know, I am there to help the people that are there Better their lives. We could be doing anything. We could be, you know, at Sunland, we built roads, bridges and highways. At Trench Aid, we're renting equipment. But that's. That's what we do. But. But what we're actually there for is these people and their families and their lives moving forward.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So.
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A
Yeah, yeah. But even in, like, an employment situation, you're just more likely to pour into the people that are getting after it, that are 100% are hungry. It's just, to me, that's. I don't know, I think, like, the, the whole mentor thing is so misunderstood. It's been so skewed. I don't know how it's been skewed or why, but it's just very, very. Or maybe people are latching onto it because then it gives them a little bit of permission to not do what they should be doing anyway. Like, I don't have the right mentor, or maybe they don't have the belief or people. I don't know what it is, but it's like, I'm asked that all the time. And I. I've been. I've been mentored by hundreds of people at this point in all different ways. I don't think I've ever had a formal mentorship ever. It's just not for me. It's not how that's. That's worked.
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B
And I think that that's a confusion. So we have built. We've. We've built a whole generation of victim mentality, and we just have. And we have to get over it. And people have to get over it. Hearing somebody say, well, I'm not getting somewhere because I just haven't had the right mentor. I just haven't had. That's like, get over your own shit. Like, you. The people that are going to move forward are. The people that are going to go out there, they're going to find it. And it's exactly what you just said. Mike. Mike Sheedy never said to me, I'm going to mentor you. Sure, not one time. But you better believe that he was. You know, I look at I. And I can name. Like you said, you have like, these hundreds of people, but that's your network. Yeah, that's your network of people that would go to bat for you because you're worth the shit to go to bat for.
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A
Exactly.
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B
So be that person. And it's that simple. You know, I look at and. And there's guys that I look at. Brian Manessi, Manessi Trucking in Columbus, Ohio. That man, I talked to him, he, he is just another like champion of, of men. Like, he's just a really good guy. If, if I called him and said, hey, you've been a mentor to me, I think he would laugh me off the phone.
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A
Sure.
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B
And he absolutely has.
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A
Yeah.
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B
When you know all of these different things in different people and, and, and I would hope that I'm doing them proud too. You know what I mean? Of like, oh, you took that piece of advice and you moved forward with it and you did. And because we just wouldn't be here without them. As far as people needing mentors and doing that be worth it.
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A
That's at least what I've done. Like, I, and in fairness, I try to talk about this all the time because I was, I was dealt a really good hand growing up. So like the dads that I was raised around were all a pretty big deal. Like now looking back on, I'm like, these were like purebred killers I was around all the time from a business standpoint. And so I was just naturally around them, these people growing up. So I had much more than most people did. But even like I saw one of my friends dads not too long ago and he was, he was one like, he really poured into me growing up and especially as, as a young adult and not in the like friendliest of ways all the time, but in, in, in what, what I needed and what was important. And he's, you know, for the first time really, he's told me he's proud of, of me, which is you, you want that from your dad, but this guy like you know, going down the list, as close as it gets to, to dad outside of my own father. And I just told him like, I'm just doing what you told me to do. Yeah, I'm, I'm just trying not to squander what you handed to me, which is what you've learned. And I'm just, I'm just trying to make something of it and that's like, that's the least I can do if I don't. Shame on me. I just feel terrible.
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B
Yeah, I think that that's, that's pretty cool. And I also think that it's our responsibility to do that. So I look at my son, I've got an 18 year old son and one of, one of my son's buddies came and worked for us in the shoring yard.
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A
Oh, nice.
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B
And so he was 17 years old when he came and worked for us and he was working as a welder and the first Day on the job, he burned himself. He didn't. He. He arc burned himself. So, you know, rookie move. You learn it and you move forward. So the second day, he texted his boss at 4 o'clock in the morning and said, hey, I got a. You know, I got a flash burn. I'm not coming in today. So it was afternoon, and I walk in through the yard, and I said, hey, where's Beckett? Where is he? And his boss said, well, he. He called in today because he had a flash flashburn yesterday. I said, he called in. He said, well, he texted me this morning and said he wasn't gonna be in. I said, okay, so this is gonna be a learning moment for both the manager and for Beckett.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because this is Beckett's first job, so he doesn't know what the expectations are for any job. And it's our fault if he ever texts another manager that he's not coming in.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's our fault, especially with an injury. Yeah, well, and it's our fault with, like, we're setting him up for future failure or success and what's accepted. So let's get Beckett on the phone. But before we do that, I said, this is how this should go. I said, it doesn't matter that he's my contact or anybody's contact. He needs to know that it's not appropriate to text your boss that you're not coming in. He needs to be held to a higher standard, and we need to teach these kids how to work. Because you just said it. You had. And so you had mentors that you didn't realize were mentors growing up, and the person that you just talked about. And he held you to a higher standard. He held you to a standard that you hold yourself to. Now, that's important throughout a business that we hold to that standard, and especially with young employees that sometimes it's their first job because if they leave us and the expectation is set that I don't feel like coming into work today, I'm going to text my boss. No, that's not okay. Yeah, that's not okay. And it's our fault for letting them think that it is.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that goes back to that mentorship. And it goes. That should be throughout an organization.
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A
Well, the victim mentality you refer to, I think, like, way extends to employers. Right now I'm starting, as I get further into business, I just have less tolerance for people complaining about being in business, especially business owners. It's like, dude, if. If you're going to complain about employing people why do you employ people? Yeah, sell the company and go move onto a farm and just do your own damn thing. Then like, what are we doing here? But, but they have that victim mentality of like, man, like, they don't, they, they don't even know that you shouldn't be texting. Like when, when that happened. Like, but it's like, well, well, who taught them? They haven't had a job before. Or if they had a job, they probably didn't get it from their past employer because there's a lot of just low grade employment opportunities right now. They didn't get it from their parents, they didn't get it from school. So like, good for you. You got it growing up in whatever. However you grew up in the barn you grew up in. Congratulations. But they didn't. So we have two options. One, complain about it and nothing happens. Nothing changes. To teach them, like, oh, he smokes. They don't, they just don't know any better. How could I get mad at a 17 year old for doing this? Like, they don't know any better. But, but if I can, if I can, like, I've really started to lean into this more and more because it's like the greatest competitive advantage you could ever enjoy. If you could take these kids and turn them into, oh, very high functioning adults and members of the community, you, your business is good, you're good to go.
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B
All right, so here's our, here right now is like our secret sauce. And I will, I will tell you and also I'm going to sum it up into one name. And Holden Boyce. You're going to hear this kid's name. Like I don't know exactly what he's going to do yet, but he's going to do something. So we met Holden eight months ago. He was referred, he was actually referred by Manny Martinez, which, you know. Oh yeah, yeah. And he said, hey, I want you to talk to this kid. And so I talked to him, talked to him on the phone and pulled him in in person, met him and went, this is what I want you to do. I want you to come work for me. And he's, he's fresh, fresh out of school, was working at a gym. I said, I want you to come work for me. Said I need you to give me. And I think I originally said two years, but I might have said one year. I need you to give me one year. It's going to be one year, grueling one year and then I'm going to place you somewhere within this business and you are going to do very, very well. And you are going to, you know, you, you will have this role within the business. I don't know what it is yet, because we're going to put you through every aspect of the business and we're going to train you.
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A
Sure.
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B
And then we're gonna turn you loose somewhere. Furthermore, if we turn you loose and this isn't a big enough role for you, I know every construction company owner in town and I know a lot of other people through other networks.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I will make sure you have an amazing job because you have legs to run on you. So what you just said about like training these young, we have three people in that training program now. So our idea of building great, a great company is around building a great team. Not a great family. We're not a family. If I stop paying you, you're going to stop coming to work. You stop working. So we are not a family. And, and it is as simple as that. At trench, eight people, every once in a while they'll be like, oh, you guys are a big family. I'm like, no, this is a high performing team.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I want the team members to, to know that because it should make them feel good, that if they are there, they are there because they are the best at what they're doing. And the holdings of the world that we're now training and bringing up, they're going to be the best somewhere too. We have to make sure that we are the team franchise that is moving fast enough and is a good enough franchise for them to want to be a part of. But training those young men and women, it is, I truly think that, that. And when people say young people don't want to work, bullshit. Yeah, they do. And Holden will outwork. He was in my yard, so. In the yard. Hardest job that we have. All last summer, 120 degree heat in Phoenix. Never complained. Outworked everybody. I shouldn't say outworked everybody. Worked very, very hard. Has the respect of all of the guys in the field. And it was just cool to see this kid come along. And now we have two others in there and they're becoming, you know, they are, they will be great wherever they go.
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A
Yeah. The family thing's tricky because I think the family business thing is what is part of what makes the construction industry great in a lot of ways. I feel like it's construction and the trades I feel like is really one of the last frontiers of the American dream. Like, I can't go start a bank tomorrow. You Know I can't go. I'm not gonna go. Like most other industries. No, like you're, you're There it is locked up and good luck. Like, oh, I want us to go start an airline tomorrow. Like, okay, good luck. I mean, maybe. But no, it's not gonna happen in the trades. You can still do that. And I've seen, I mean, hundreds of examples of guys like, like you, no, no school, no formal experience, go out and buy some dump trucks and now they're worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But at the same time, that's also partially why the industries in the pickle it's in is because we're a family. And I've seen this so many times over. There'll be this old estimator that's been with them for 33 years. But clearly a problem, like clearly holding the whole organization back. But they're just waiting for him to retire and then they can get on with it. Because we sacred cow. Loyalty above everything. Or a family can't fire this guy. And to me it's like, I get it, I appreciate that. But at the same time, the whole team's hurting as a result right now. And you're losing these other people because like that want to get after it, that want to bring the business into the next generation. And it's such a. It happens all the time. I see it all over.
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B
Yeah. So three different things that you kind of hit there that I want to hit on. One is loyalty and what loyalty means. The other one family and then team. So the loyalty thing that runs so deep in construction to me means that we're going to do what we said we're going to do 100% of the time. And it's never 100% of the time because sometimes stuff happens. And when we fail, we're gonna do backflips and make sure that everybody knows that we knew that we failed and we're gonna fix it. But holding onto that estimator is a really interesting thing. And when it comes to the family dynamic you look at, there is not very many conversations that I have with our employees that they don't know how important they are to my family. And so Jeff, my business partner and I, and you talk about super successful people that also. He started his first company which was Traffic Aid that got acquired by AWP in his parents backyard. And he had family members that were also in the business. People at Traffic Aid were working for the Johnson family. People at Trench Aid are working for the Johnson family. And they're working for the Bear family, and then they're working for the trench aid team. And when I speak and when we talk about different things and when I talk about the brand, what I'm talking about is how important it is for my family that anything that a truck driver says, anything that a yard. Yard laborer says, anything that a dispatcher says, they speak for my family. They speak my words, like, I'm going to back them up. And that brand and them being proud of it for their family that's at home is super important to me.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Now, so that's. That's, like the family side. And I think that people. I believe that people in our culture feel a loyalty to that and that to, like, they don't want to let down their family at home because they're putting on this brand, and they don't want to let down their team at work because of it. The holding on to people. It. It just. On the car ride over here, I was talking to the people in the car, and we were talking about different stuff, and the. There is. I listened to the. Did you go to Brophy?
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A
No. Okay. So I went to Phoenix Country Day School. So I needed. I needed. I went through eighth grade. I'm like, I need a break. So I went to public school after that.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I. At the end. The reason I ask is at the. At the Brophy Power Breakfast, they had the coach of the Cardinals come in, and I don't know his name. Sorry, I'm not into football. Everybody just turned off the podcast. So anyways. But the. He came in, so I stole this from him. But it really makes a lot of sense on when he took over the Cardinals and he changed the stuff in the locker room, and there's one sign for their core values, and it says team over you. And when I listened as soon as he said that, I went, oh, my gosh. I almost stopped listening because I went right back to the office and I said, you know, and it's something we immediately started talking about because in every situation, it can be the team or it can be about you. And in those legacy situations where you have somebody that is dragging down your culture, can't do it. You cannot do it because you cannot have. LeBron James is not going to be playing in that same capacity. He is not going to be on the court in 20 years. James, he's not the one that hit the. Yeah, he's still playing.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
All right, we're good. So he's still good. So he might be a coach he might be something else within that organization and he might have to move. But if you are not willing to adapt yourself and change with the times, then you are working yourself out of a role. Loyalty. A company having loyalty to you means that you need to have loyalty to them. You need to be providing. You can't be the crotchety old estimator that has been there for 20 years that nobody can get things through. Or you need to move on because that is being disloyal to the people that are providing you into the whole rest of the team. And if they don't realize it, it is our organization's job to make sure that you tell them and coach them and let them know and then you remove them from the team.
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A
Yeah, there should be some patience there. But you need to have that conversation. They need to be aware, like, listen, this cannot continue.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
We've got to do something about that. It's a two, it's a two way street. Like you said, it's conditional. If I stop paying people, how long are they hanging out here? Not long.
- [32:02]
B
They can't. They can't. Yeah. No. And if, and if they're not working, you cannot for the health of the team and the organization and culture is, you know, that's the other thing. So this victim mentality, the other mentality is like culture mentality. Got to have good culture, got to have. Your company's got culture. Like every company has culture. And it's on a knife's edge. It's constantly on a knife's edge that needs to be maintained every single day by accepting subpar employees that are not coachable. So that's the other thing with mentorship. If you are not coachable, don't waste somebody's time. Sure. If you're somebody that gets defensive, if you're somebody that can't take criticism, if you're somebody that can't listen, just. And how many arguments do you get into with your, with your manager? Like, that's the first one. Take a step back and like be self aware enough to know what you need to work on.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah, yeah. This whole topic I just don't think is discussed nearly enough because it's so prevalent. And then you get into the whole other category that is like the nepotism side of things within family businesses. And not like it works out phenomenally well in a lot of cases. And it works out horribly in a lot of cases.
- [33:25]
B
In a lot more cases. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:28]
A
And I, and this is something I've said a lot. Like I don't envy anybody. Second generation, third generation, fourth generation. Like, that's a hard place to be in. And if you're bred for it, that's just what, like, you know, I was just talking to someone from Bemis today, you know, Larry Ames, you know, brought up by Dick Ames. Larry Ames. I don't, I don't worry about him being second generation. Like, he was bred to move dirt. And that is, everything with this being is like, I just need to move dirt. But a lot of time, like, the odds of that happening are relatively slim in the grand scheme of things.
- [34:04]
B
It's a big family too.
- [34:06]
A
It's a bit. Yeah.
- [34:06]
B
And you've got, and you've got Tony, Tony Ames. It's over at Emory Sapp, an amazing human being that's also bred to move dirt. Look at, look at those.
- [34:14]
A
I don't know what was in that water.
- [34:16]
B
I don't either. But, but look at the, you know, and they, they. And he's, And I don't know how, I don't know the exact. I can't remember how the connection. But, but I know Emory Bot. Rummel. Rummel. And I think Tony's over both. Over both.
- [34:29]
A
Yeah, but he was a Walsh guy.
- [34:32]
B
Yep.
- [34:33]
A
Before that. Yeah.
- [34:34]
B
And, and I'm telling you, like, they're, they're. You talk about the rumble boys, like, and moving dirt like, it is unreal. It is just an amazing, like, certain people are very good at it doesn't mean you're very good at moving, at running a business. Sure they are. Those guys are. So that's going to be wrong on that. But it's, it's, it's pretty cool to see when that happens. I think it happens. I think that there's less examples of it happening. Well, and that's part of construction too, because you go back to that family deal and you go back to the nepotism. You're not seeing that in airlines. You're not seeing that necessarily in banks or those types of things because it's a more so one of the things that Brian Manasse told me when I was 22 years old and running dump trucks is he said, mike, I feel like we are the most educated in the non educated world. We're trying to run these, these trucks with numbers and logic and, and we're competing against people that are not.
- [35:34]
A
Yeah.
- [35:35]
B
And so it's very difficult. And that's kind of the construction deal is that because you can get in because there's a low barrier to entry and that's getting a little bit Higher. But even at Sunland, you know, you take a half a billion dollar revenue company and they're going out and doing parking lot work, they are bidding against somebody that went and rented a paver, rented an excavator. And they're, they're, they could be fly by night, but they also could be the next startup, they could be the next company. That's going to be amazing. And that's the beautiful thing about this, this country is being able to do that in the construction industry. Still is, you're right. It's pretty cool.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, it makes it very unique, I think. Another, another thing I'm thinking through as well, I always tell younger people, especially going to work for the bigger construction companies, you are a number. Don't buy into the bullshit that you're a family, that this is this, we have this great culture, so on and so forth, if you do great. But you are a number, at the end of the day, you are nothing more than that to this company. And you were. And I say that in a very positive way. Like it's a good mentality to have to be like, even here, I'm just, I'm just a number. I'm replaceable. Like I need to earn my place here. But it's, I'm going to do my best for them, they're going to pay me as a result, I'm going to help make the money, but at the same time, I don't need to have. I feel like people sometimes are overly loyal to companies when companies really don't care about them. And it's like, don't let that get in the way either. If, hey, I've done great here for two years and there's a better opportunity over here. Go, go, go to that better opportunity.
- [37:24]
B
What I would say is I agree and disagree. What I think is probably not messaging.
- [37:32]
A
It in the best way is I.
- [37:34]
B
Here'S how I message it to my people. You are in the business of you. And I tell my kids this too. And whether you're getting paid $20 an hour to be the business of you or whatever, whether you're working for yourself or you're working for somebody else, you are the business of you. Not very many people look at it that way. They look at it as, I am, I am an accountant and I work for this company and I get paid $35 an hour and I move on and I am in the business of this business. No, you're in the business of you and you should be marketing your business to your company constantly yeah. And you should be providing value to your employer constantly. And because if you look at it as a business, and if you looked at it as, okay, I'm in the business of being an accountant for Trench Aid, is it better. Would it be better for Trench Aid to go outsource and get a different business, or are they best with me? And if the answer's you, and you're always giving that great customer service, and you're always doing those things, but it's in every role. It's in everything that we do. We are the business of you. And I can tell you exactly how much you make. And the reason that I can is because you make exactly what you're worth.
- [38:59]
A
Yeah.
- [39:00]
B
And so that's something for people to think about and go, oh, all right, well, if I'm not making what I want to make, how do I make myself worth more so that this employer or somebody else. The best compliment to an employer is that everybody is chasing their employees because they know that they're doing something right and their employees are still with them. Like, my overall goal for every organization I've ever had is if I can have the absolute. These employees that everybody. Their LinkedIn should be blowing up, people should be trying to steal them, and there's always going to be people out there that can pay more than you. You cannot beat that. And you cannot.
- [39:47]
A
We definitely can.
- [39:48]
B
You can't. You can't outrun that bullet. So you have to have the company that is worth having people to come work with.
- [39:57]
A
That's a much better way to explain it. You're in the business of you. I just had a, like, young. A young sales rep the other day. I told him, like, dude, I need you making money first. Like, he's. He's been working with the team a lot. And I'm like, that's great. You need to be squared away. You need to be making the money you need to be making. You need to be hitting your goals, and then you can get the team squared away. And it's not that black and white, but it's like, I need you good to go. Because if you're not good to go, and you're up, you know, late at night worrying about your. Your numbers and your job, this and that, then you can't be there for the team. Like, that's why I need you good. So that you can show up for everybody else and better serve everybody else.
- [40:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of truth to that. You know, it is our job as managers to make sure that we're pushing our people in the right direction and placing opportunities in front of them, whether it's internally or externally. So at, you know, Jeff and I's organization, it is more important for us to make sure that that person's in a good position somewhere than in a good position with us. And we have had people leave us. We had our. Our best driver, our number one lead driver leave to go start his own trucking company. And you know what? Great. What help do you need? We can help set you up. I think he's going to do spectacular with it. And. And everybody went, you know, but. But that's really. And that stuff comes around. It really does. And for so long, we. You didn't do that. And you, like, try to keep people and you, you know, you're going back and forth. Nope, that's not it. We are a stopping point, and hopefully that stopping point is for your career because we have built a business that you want to stay with and that has opportunities for you. So it's not that your employers. I don't. It's not that your employees don't care, because we do care, but it's back to the team thing and not the family thing. Are you providing because you're the business of you. Are you providing the value that your role demands?
- [42:11]
A
Yeah.
- [42:12]
B
And that your organization does. And let's extrapolate that out further that the market demands, because there's a lot of shifts in the market right now, and I don't even want to go down the AI trail. But the fact of the matter is there's going to be shifts, and I don't think it's a reset. I think it's a shift. What do you need to do as an employee to make yourself valuable to your employer and to the market? Stop looking at your employer, start looking outside and be like, would they hire me today? Sure. Would they hire me with what they know about me and with the work that I put forward? Because now they have 2, 3, 5, 10 years of resume on me. Would they still make this hire if they knew that this was with other people? If they really knew what I did and what I do? And if the answer is I'm just, like, skating by, I don't want skating by in my organization. I don't like. So don't call me. But if it's. I'm crushing it, I'm killing it. And your organization still doesn't realize it, and you can't articulate that. Find somebody that can help you articulate it. Find Somebody that can. You know what I mean?
- [43:18]
A
Yeah. That's the quickest way to improve your market value is do it where you're at. And if you can, then look in the mirror and be like, I'm worth more and they're not giving me more. It's a. It's a big market right now, and it's definitely an employee market rather than an employer market, for lack of better term. Like, individuals, I think, have more power right now than companies do in most positions, I would say.
- [43:46]
B
Yeah. And, you know, I think that that's where you hear so much whining from the. From the employer side, maybe a little bit, but I feel like that's swinging back, too, and constantly kind of moves back and forth in between who. And it's creating these, you know, I will say creating opportunities within companies. Fifteen years ago, this conversation wasn't being had, I don't think. I don't think it was. I don't think that there were guys sitting in a room going, okay, what can we do better for? Not at this level, for employees. And doing things like, it was just a different market. Same thing with safety. Let's go to safety real quick. Fifteen, 20 years ago, when Doug brought me on to Sunland, and that was in 2015 when I joined that team, and I remember looking at their safety program and being like, seems ridiculous to me. It seems like now I'm like, seems amazing to me, but it seemed ridiculous because myself and my wife, there's pictures of us paving on the back of a paver in tennis shoes, shorts, and a T shirt.
- [44:59]
A
Sure. Yeah.
- [45:00]
B
No ppe.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah. Why not?
- [45:02]
B
Like, no big deal. You go to Sunland, you go to these big companies now, you're not walking out into a yard without eye protection. Ears. You know, like, it's. You're going in our yard, it's head, ears, toes, like, you're fully PPE out. If that's a change, that was a change in the market. That was employee. Employee centered to keep people safe, to move them in that direction. Yeah, that wasn't that way 20 years ago.
- [45:28]
A
Yeah, but it was employee centered, but it was. It was driven by dollars. It was 100% driven by the market. Not 100%, but like. And, but. But that's why we're having this conversation, is because the market is now driving this conversation, and the market is now driving the need to do these things for your people, create these opportunities, build your own workforce. Because the workforce out, outside of your business doesn't really exist anymore.
- [45:59]
B
Doesn't Exist. The people are there, though. The people are there. And they're there. Interested in it, are there. If you can show them that you're worth taking a shot on.
- [46:08]
A
Yeah, sure. It's Sunland 2015 to. When was that?
- [46:15]
B
Tell the sale. So we sold in 2021. February 2021. And then I was on for 90 days after that.
- [46:22]
A
Okay.
- [46:23]
B
Yeah.
- [46:23]
A
And then you. When did you get into Trench Aid?
- [46:27]
B
So after the sale of Sunland, I did some. I've always done some land development deals and different things like that. Yeah, I was kind of looking for the next thing to do, and I met my. So my current business partner was Traffic Aid. So he owned a company, Jeff Johnson. He owned a company named Traffic Aid, and they were the largest traffic control company in the Southwest. I mean, they're just a monster. And Sunland was actually Traffic Aid's biggest customer. But I hadn't actually the funny part. And my partner tells the story a little bit different because he remembers meeting me at a golf tournament. I don't remember that. That's it. I was apparently having a little more fun than he was that day. But he also remembers everybody from every interaction names. He is amazing at it. It blows my mind. But about. About six months after we sold Sunland and he sold Traffic Aid, we were at a meeting together and he was telling his story and he said, oh, you know, I sold my company and blah, blah, blah. And he starts telling the story about when he was 16 years old, how he always liked the blinking lights on cones and different things like that from when he was a little kid. And that he started this traffic control company. And this man has a passion for traffic control like you've never seen before. I love that. And I was like, I do, too. And so, like, listening to him talking. And I kid you not, like, if you meet him, it is. He has a passion for that business and really had a passion for it and built this monstrosity, this business, this titan of traffic control in the Arizona market, and then sold it. And he was talking about the business, and it's a forum that we were in, and he said, you know, and now I'm doing paving and trench shoring and, you know, the steel road plates that you drive over on the road and trench shoring rental. And he was doing paving, too, at the time. And we. We started talking and had coffee afterwards, and I was actually looking at buying his paving equipment for another paving company. And as we were talking, he. You know, Jeff is probably one of the most candid people that I've ever been around. He just really. I was gonna say he has a way of cutting through, like, the BS to just, like, what it is. But he identified within his organization, within Trench Aid, some issues, some cultural issues, some things that weren't the way that he wanted them to be. And he also just had this massive exit. He retained Trench Aid so that he would have something to do. And it wasn't fun. It wasn't.
- [49:21]
A
So he already had the business?
- [49:22]
B
Yeah, he already had the business. He carved it out. So he carved out Trench aids. So the funny part is you think about the things that you're willing to do, not willing to do, whatever it is. And I remember sitting in his office and he said, well, do you want to come? And we were talking back and forth about the business, and at some point he said, well, what are you doing? And I said, I'm doing land development deals, looking for a business, kind of just trying to figure out what my next thing is going to be. And my kids don't get. They. They're in school for another five, six years, so I'm going to be here. And he said, well, would you have interest in running Trench Aid? I said, working for you? He said, yeah. I said, no. And he kind of, like, smiled and kind of, like, smirked. And then we kind of talked back and forth. And I said, well, would you be interested in selling the business? He said, no. I said, well, you just said it had all these problems. He goes, yeah, but I like the business. He's like, it's a great business. Like, I love the business. I'm not selling. I said, okay. So then we talked some more. And he came back. He said, okay, well, would you be interested in buying part of the business and being partners? And I said, yeah. And we worked it out. And so my mom was actually sick at the time, and this was in April, and she was here in Nashville, actually. And so I said, you know, I've got some family stuff to work out, and came out here and helped take care of her in kind of her last month. And I said, you know, when I'm back from that, we'll figure this out. And literally, I didn't realize it until I flew in here this trip. This is my first time back to Nashville since she passed away. The airport looks amazing, by the way. That was in two. It was in 22.
- [51:08]
A
The airport looks different every time I.
- [51:09]
B
Fly out of it In May of 22nd, the airport looks great. So I flew back on Wednesday. Jeff left for summer on the next Monday and said, here you go. And I took over the operations of Trendshade. So what I will say is unique about the situation is Jeff acts as the CFO of the business and the strategic partner that I rely on for. I mean, I literally talked to him walking in here. It's such a great. And he doesn't want to do. He doesn't want the day to day operations. He doesn't want to deal with that stuff. And that's where I thrive. I love it. I love that he was so candid about the issues that were there. And I also was like, there's no way, like, you know, whatever. And he was very accurate about every, every little thing. Like he knew his business inside and out and had identified what he's really great at and what he doesn't want to do.
- [52:18]
A
Sure.
- [52:19]
B
And so it's. When people meet Jeff and I, they're like, wow, you guys are. And the people that know both of us, they're like, you're two totally different people. It works really well because the opportunity for me at this point in my career was to be able to focus on the people and build this business around the people that are there and the opportunities for those people. It really could have been anything. So when, when I took over, we were doing, we were doing trench safety rental and then we were also doing paving and milling. We divested of the paving and milling. So that, that wasn't in. In the cards originally.
- [52:57]
A
Was it under the trench aid name or different name?
- [52:59]
B
It was under. It was under work zone services was the name of it. So it was all kind of traffic, traffic aid, work zone services and then trench aid and paving makes a lot of sense in Phoenix. I know paving very well because it's.
- [53:15]
A
A phenomenal business in Arizona.
- [53:16]
B
It is, it is. And it's. But here's the thing. It's a distraction from the core business. The core business that we were building was not paving and paving and construction is far different than equipment rental. We are in the equipment rental space. That's what we do. Paving and building jobs is a totally different business model and it's a distraction from what. So within the first two months we divested of it. So we. Almost immediately that was. And then we started. You know, we. The. One of the really important things to us right when we got together is we went, okay, what's our, what's our combined vision? What's our combined vision for this company? What's it going to be? Jeff's vision for his businesses all along has been prompt, dependable and friendly. Like, that's. That's when people see him and talk about it. And that was one thing. To me, I'm like, all right, I don't want to go away from that. Yeah, but we need to figure out what the people that are here now and what we want it to be and what do we want this brand to look like and then develop that. And so we came up with a, you know, with. With all the, you know, the mission, vision, values, and all of that stuff, but that we're unique to he and I and how we were going to run that business. And then we started pushing forward, and it's been an amazing. So it's almost been three years, and this. We have people coming out of the woodwork now to want to come work for us. To me, that's the measure of success. Not the fact that we've grown by four times. Not the fact that we have expanded into Texas and that we are the biggest shoring provider in Arizona now. But those are great little, like, things. The fact that I have people coming out of the woodwork that want to come work for us, that's the buzz. So Jeff always talks about what's the buzz with a business, and that's, like, what energizes him for it. That's it. Like, when people want to work with you, when people are proud, when we do a family day and they're bringing their families out and their kids are wearing our swag, they're putting their kids in it. Like, that's. There's no better thing than figuring that part out because they're proud of it.
- [55:31]
A
I think it's particularly cool, too, because shoring is not traditionally a sexy business by any stretch of the imagination. It's not like milling, for example. Like, you've got these big mills, and you're out in the street, you're doing work, and you can see what you're doing every day. This and that. Yep, it's shoring. It's like, it's. It's. It's. It's critical for any kind of utility work. Like, when you start to think about it, it's a pretty big deal. But it's also like, no one that's not in the industry knows what it is, cares what it is, will probably ever really even acknowledge it. Yep.
- [56:09]
B
Yeah, it's there and gone. Yeah.
- [56:12]
A
Yeah. And it's temporary. Yeah.
- [56:14]
B
It's.
- [56:14]
A
It's not even permanent fixture anywhere. And. And. But that's. That's to say it's like it's It's. I. I think you can build excitement around anything like it. It. I learned this from a guy. He was in Arizona. He's still in Arizona, I think. But I got to know this guy. He was a. He had a dumpster company, Waste waste company. And he. He had.
- [56:38]
B
He.
- [56:38]
A
He talked about his story. He had a crazy story, but went to prison very early on for like a huge technical. Like he got really screwed by the system and, you know, he made a mistake, but he got really screwed as a result, but ends up with this. This waste company and absolutely kills it because he wants to make this premium waste business like, premium brand with. With drivers that look very good in nice, tidy uniforms. Every truck brand new, clean, tidy. They paint their boxes like their boxes are not beat up. They're very pretty. They look good. The branding is really nice. Like, it's. It's straightforward stuff, but it's not something you would. It's not a business you'd even think about. Yeah, but there's a lot of money to be made in all kinds of stuff like dumpsters. And he created this premium brand out of dumpsters. And it's like, huh.
- [57:34]
B
And that's us with Frenchie, like a ton of money on paint and this and that and making sure that the equipment that we send out is of the highest quality. I want. I. First, I want the highest quality people working for us. I do. Then I want the best rental equipment that is in the market. The cleanest, best, newest, everything out there. And then I want them to have the best tools to deliver it. And really what that comes down to is I'm going to throw them under the bus here. It's Jeff and I's ego. And like, that ego plays into, like, if we're going to do it. Neither one of us is in a position at this point in our life where we need to do it. We're doing this because we're going to do it the right way. And we want it to be the. We want our employees to be proud of it and happy and like, this is cool. And, you know, we just. We've got three new trucks that are going into the fleet right now, and you better believe the drivers are like, holy cow. Like, these are. And. And that stuff matters because it matters to the employees. On the flip side of that, when you have good equipment, you're happier to use it. You know, people that are contractors are happier because they were getting nice stuff instead of beat up crap. And it matters to us, and so it matters to our people. You Know how you do anything is how you do everything and the details matter and that's it.
- [58:58]
A
No, and I love that. And that's one of the messages I'm preaching because the industry has done a very poor job of how it's presenting it, how it's presented itself. Like, my thing is like, why, why do people think construction second rate? Well, a lot of times it looks second rate. Like it looks like shit. Job sites look like shit, people look like shit, Equipment looks like shit, trucks look like shit. I went to work for a company when I was younger. They paint their equipment yellow and black. Pretty well known organization, been around a while, since the 1800s. And I went to work for them because they kind of had like a fuck you mentality. Like they were badass. Like they're good and they know it. And I, that like, to me, especially as a young male, like, that was appealing. I wanted to be a part of it. And they back it up too. They've been around since the 1800s for a reason. But I didn't know what they did. I didn't care what they did. They just looked cool. And I wanted to be. I wanted to be on that team. That's it.
- [59:57]
B
People don't want to be a part of stuff that's junk. They don't want to be. They're not, you know, if they're not down to the swag, down to everything that we do, I want to do it at a very high level. And the fact that Jeff and I are so closely aligned on that, it makes it good. Because guess what, it's expensive to do it at a high level. And there is a cost to that. I also believe that there's a payoff to it that is huge. And just employees knowing that you have their back on the equipment that they're going to have and customers, you know, in our industry it is standard that for every $200,000, it's like $280,000 actually in rental revenue. You run one delivery truck. So one of the things that I identified when and when I say I, I'm going to say we, because it was a whole team of people. When I said, ok, what's wrong with the business? The business in general, not trench aid, trench shoring rental in general and equipment rental. And they said pickups and drop offs, that was. I called everybody that I knew. I'm like, what's the most annoying thing? Billing and pickups and drop offs. So the reason that pickups and drop offs take forever is because people, especially pickups People prioritize drop offs deliveries before they do pickups. Because you're putting something on rent. It makes sense, but actually it doesn't because it pisses everybody off when you leave your equipment out on site. We run one delivery truck for every $75,000 in revenue right now. The reason that we do it is so that we can actually provide higher customer service, so that we can do what we say we're going to do. And that to me also for construction companies, when you talk about it being like the chintzy and the cheap equipment and this and that and whatever, how the, the change order mentality and in these different kind of like, it's a low margin business, you have to screw people to get it done. And that's not factual because. And everybody says they have better customer service. I don't want to say it and preach it. I want to be able to get online. I want to be able to go to a dinner. I want to be able to walk into a restaurant and walk by one of my customers and have them grab me when my wife and kids are standing there with me and say, thank you so much, you guys are better than everybody else. That's what it matters. So we run more trucks so that we can have higher customer service. It costs more, we charge more, People are willing to pay it for higher customer service. That's all there is to it.
- [62:40]
A
Well, and rental is very interesting right now because it's like you were saying, changing markets like rental over the past five, ten years, whoa. It's grown like crazy and it's consolidated like crazy. You've got now these like behemoths backed by the public market nationwide. You know, these, these just enormous enterprises. But I think like one of your biggest advantages is you can just. Sure, you can't. You can never compete against their balance sheet. Like, they're. No, but, but you don't have to. Like, you can just, you're just more nimble, you can move faster, you can make these core decisions, you can build this brand, you can tailor your customer experience so much faster, more effectively, which then makes you stand out. Like, you can look at it like, how could we ever compete against Big Blue, for example? But like, no, we don't have to because we can just go over here and do this.
- [63:40]
B
Yeah.
- [63:41]
A
And it's going to work even better for us.
- [63:43]
B
And, and that's the thing is that we don't, I'm going to, we don't compete against those big companies. They have the same thing. Yeah, we do. It fundamentally different and even down to the. To as we like kind of slide back to our employees. Like empowering your employees to be able to make a decision and not. And know what those guardrails that they can make those decisions. And what I tell people within the organization, the people that we have, we've almost high level. I am. What's it called when you strike out 100% of time? Is that batting a thousand or is that good?
- [64:20]
A
No, a thousand is good. I think.
- [64:23]
B
Yeah, I'm batting a thousand in the negative way. It could be completely wrong when it comes to. When it comes to hiring people from the big rental companies because then they come into our company and they want to change everything and they want to go, you can't do this. You got to do this. You got to charge for everything. You got it. You know, and I'm like, this is. This isn't working. We have to do it our way. But you know, the. It's. It's not necessarily in the things that you do well where you stand out with customers. It's when you drop a ball and are. And then do a backflip over the moon to make it right with the customer and immediately instead of. Because that's in. And it comes back to what I said earlier. Our employees speak for me and my family and Jeff and his family. If they're committing it to a customer, it's the same as us committing it. So we didn't follow through on something if we didn't do what we said we're going to do. We're going to make it right and we're going to make sure it doesn't happen again. And that's. And that's the difference. And they can make that call immediately. They can make the call in the field. We screwed up here. We're going to make this right and do things that the national guys just can't do. They can't move that fast.
- [65:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah. They just can't. Yeah. So how do you get, you know, these. These truck drivers like to anybody on paper that's a low skill position or to the common person and they're kind of hired guns. Like a truck driver's truck driver. Right. But that's not the case.
- [65:59]
B
Yeah.
- [65:59]
A
So how do you get them to buy into that elevated customer service approach? Because trucking is not known for its customer service necessarily.
- [66:08]
B
So our truck drivers are the face of our company.
- [66:10]
A
Yes.
- [66:11]
B
So the difference in between our business and like a dump truck company. A dump truck company. You are. You're that driver's in the truck all day, back and forth. Getting out of the truck is a problem.
- [66:24]
A
Yep.
- [66:25]
B
Our truck drivers, every single job are getting out of the truck and talking to the customer. So when you talk about the, the dumpster company where the drivers are in all uniform and they're in a nice unit, you know, that's our guys. They. And, and I want them to be proud. So it starts with them being proud of the equipment that they're running and then it goes to them being proud of what they're wearing, the equipment that they're delivering, and then constantly talking to them about the expectation that we have. They get more time with our customers than our sales guys do. They are rewarded for that time. We, you know, and the fact of the matter is, you know, we just had a guy this last week, Ernie. So in our sales chat thread, one of the branch managers from Northern Arizona popped up in this and he did a screen capture of a customer that went away from us because of price and now has come back. We didn't lower the price and they said, you know, we're not getting the service that we need. And Ernie was the first driver. That was them coming back after a couple of months of going away. And this text thread, it's like black, you know, black writing and then blue. And it's this paragraph about how great Ernie was on the job and how he helped their, you know, he helped out and helped them unload something else, you know, whatever it was. That's what we expect. They are a player on that team and they are a high value player and that's how we treat them. And I would be, I will tell you this about trench aid. I would turn you or anybody else loose without me with you, without anybody with you. If you walked into any of our branches, whether in Texas or in Arizona, and you're going to get the same experience with every person that you talk to. A yard laborer, a welder, a inside sales truck driver, they are all going, when you walk through that yard, they're going to stop you, they're going to talk to you. They're going to be friendly. They're going to take the time to figure out who you are, what you're about and have a conversation all the way through. Somebody on the forklift, we hire for it. It's what. And, and here's the other thing we have. I'm not, I. This is not for everybody. Our culture is not for everybody. There are people that don't want to do that. When I took over trench aid I think we had 70 some employees. We went down to about 47. Now we're at about 85, I think, or 90. Yeah. Turnover from the legacy employees to the employees that are there now, probably 80%.
- [69:23]
A
Sure.
- [69:24]
B
So they were great guys. The other guys were great guys. They were, you know, and whatnot. But here. Here is what. And back to the. It's. We just had a mechanic that left us, and I went over and thanked him for working with us and whatnot and asked about where he was going. He said, mike, here's the deal. I'm just getting a little bit older. And he said, I understand what you want and what you expect here. And he said, this just isn't for me. He said, I kind of want to go somewhere where I can just coast. And I said, you know what? I appreciate you saying that.
- [70:03]
A
Totally fair.
- [70:04]
B
Thank you. And I respect you for saying it. And he said, no, I love Brian the shopman. I love Brian and it's been great. He said, but I got this other job and it's just going to be easier. And I went, okay, we're doing something right. So he self selected out. When I say that we had an 80% turnover, most people self selected out and just said, this isn't the. This isn't quite what I want to do. Some people didn't, obviously, but. But that's it. And. And I am incredibly proud that I would have my kids work in the organization because there's not a manager that I wouldn't put them under and not a department that I wouldn't put them in. And that is, like my most precious thing that I have. So. And I would put them all throughout our organization.
- [70:54]
A
It's super damn cool what you guys have done. Like, I've just watched it from the outside because I know the Phoenix market pretty well. You went into Texas not too long ago.
- [71:06]
B
Yep.
- [71:07]
A
Dallas, Fort Worth. A totally different animal.
- [71:09]
B
Yeah.
- [71:10]
A
Compared to Phoenix. And I've seen contractors try to do the DFW thing from Phoenix. They don't do it anymore because it's. It's, it's. It's a. I mean, not to say Phoenix is an easy mark. It's not an easy mark. They're just very different. How are they different? How. How have they been different for you? For you guys? Or have they been all that different?
- [71:37]
B
How have they been different or has.
- [71:40]
A
Anything surprised you about DFW market?
- [71:45]
B
I feel like I'm constantly getting, like, smacked like, oh, here's this, here's this, here's. But. But not Necessarily in that market. Mainly because when I assume things, I'm like, oh, that was wrong. Dfw. We hired Texas guys and Texas guys are running it.
- [71:58]
A
Yeah.
- [71:59]
B
And we're giving them the. The bandwidth to run the way that they kind of want. Want to run that within the guardrails. Because my guardrails conversation back to that is here's the guardrails that are drawn on a piece of paper stay within the guardrails 80% of the time. The other 15% of the time stay on the piece of paper. If you're going off the piece of paper on that 5%, call me like, let's have a conversation before we go off that piece of paper. So I would say that 80% of our systems and our process and everything are trench aid. And then Texas, other branches in Arizona, like the branches do it a little bit differently. Texas has been very great for us. We have taken off in Texas. We have. When does this. When will this air?
- [72:45]
A
Couldn't tell you.
- [72:46]
B
I don't know.
- [72:47]
A
Maybe next month.
- [72:48]
B
So if it airs by next month, we will have. Things are going so well there. We have another sales guy that will be on by that time and it has grown probably significantly more faster. Not probably, it's grown significantly faster than what we thought it was going to. So that was a little bit of a surprise. When Jeff or I do something, we did not do it in the, like stick our toe in the water. We went in there with close to $10 million in inventory, which is a large stack of inventory for trench shoring. Most companies when they open up, it's a million, a million and a half. We wanted to make sure that if we were going to be in a market, if somebody called for something, we were going to have it. So we have it. We have the inventory there that has helped the two guys. I've got two sales guys there right now currently. And if depending on when this errors, we'll have a third just because the guys can't keep up with where they are. And we do it fundamentally different than the big guys. There is another trench shoring company there in town that does it similar to us. They're a great company too. And that's. We're just kind of doing it our way. And it's, it's the, the once people get the customer service side and that it's actually. It's not just us saying it, but we're actually doing it and showing up. Yeah, that's been, that's been big for.
- [74:13]
A
Us because I mean, sales is Important, but customer. The customer experience is doing a lot of the sales.
- [74:20]
B
Exactly. 100% in our market, like in ours. And every. Because here's the deal. It's oversold. We're the best customer service. No, you actually have to show up. And I would rather send something out for free than give a discount to show you how good our customer service is.
- [74:37]
A
Sure.
- [74:38]
B
I don't like discounts.
- [74:39]
A
Yeah.
- [74:40]
B
I don't want to cheapen my product. Yeah, I will. But. But if you're doubting it, how about I send you something and we'll figure this out and then you tell me and it's going to be better.
- [74:52]
A
Yeah. There's. I think it's also. In this world, it's rare. People doing what they say they're going to do is rare.
- [75:04]
B
Yeah.
- [75:04]
A
And so a lot of it, like, a lot of the customer service is just doing exactly what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it.
- [75:13]
B
Yeah.
- [75:13]
A
I feel like that's what. Especially like, I worked in Fort Worth.
- [75:17]
B
We're.
- [75:17]
A
We're residentoring for. For underground utility work. If I need trench boxes, I just want them. If I need them Monday, I just want them to show up when they're supposed to show up. And if they. If we need more, I just want them to show up when they're supposed to show up. And when we're done with them, I just want them gone so they're not sitting in some lady's lawn who's yelling at me about it or whatever it is. Like, that's all I need. I just need you to show up. Take them away, show up, bring them when you're supposed to do it, and.
- [75:47]
B
Do what you say you're going to do.
- [75:48]
A
Yeah.
- [75:49]
B
You know, the unique perspective that I had coming into this business is I came from the contractor side and built a heavy civil division, and so I know what the cost is also to having a crew sit for an hour.
- [76:01]
A
Yes.
- [76:01]
B
And so when we're having conversations with people about crew, you know, oh, well, it's delayed three hours. Okay. So that was $15,000. And having a heavy civil crew sit there for three hours waiting on boxes to show up so somebody can get in the hole. That's a huge, huge problem. That is way more expensive than me being 2 or $300 higher on. On a monthly rate.
- [76:25]
A
Sure.
- [76:26]
B
So. So that part. And. But it truly is doing what you say you're going to do. But. But that goes to, like our family. I want people to know that If I said that I'm going to be somewhere and I'm not there, I'm dead. Like, that's. They need to start checking hospitals and our business the exact same way. And if we do screw up, which we are going to screw up, we are doing tens of millions of dollars in revenue now with an average rental item being, you know, a plate is eight bucks a day. Like, it's not like it takes a lot of plates to add up to that things are going to happen, how you react to them and making sure that if I said I was going to be there at noon, it's because I fully anticipated and planned and organized to be there at noon. The truck broke down, 20 minutes out, you're getting a phone call and we're going to make it right. And I've got another one rolling and here's what happened and let me, you know what I mean? And, and, and it's that simple to.
- [77:31]
A
Take this like full circle too. I've had to talk to a lot of younger people about the whole doing what you say you're going to do, when you're going to do it. And it's the small things that I've had to tell people. Like if you say you're gonna be somewhere at 2:00, you need to be there at 2:00. If you say you're gonna get this to me tomorrow, you need to get it to me tomorrow. And it's like, if it's gonna be Wednesday, just say Wednesday. Like when it happens in a lot of cases isn't important, but you're only as good as your word. Like that, that is the basis of the trust between you and I. And if you miss, like if you keep getting it to me a day late. Now I'm not just questioning when I'm gonna get stuff from you, but I'm questioning everything you're doing, which, which is a huge problem. And it's like, but people don't, a lot of times they just don't see it that way. It's like, well, what's the big deal? It's like, no, no, it's not a big deal here, but it's a big deal over here because now I just don't know where I can trust you.
- [78:35]
B
Well, extrapolate it out to an organization because then when you have an organization, it's, you are dependent on other people making commitments and following through on it because if they don't, then it tarnishes the whole organization. It tarnishes the organization for everybody. And you cannot accept it like that is. That is an absolute non negotiable make commitments that you can actually follow through on and know that if it didn't happen, it's because you're dead. And I truly believe that. And this is like my dad was a California highway patrolman and I can tell you that if he said he was going to do something, there was absolutely no way that it didn't happen. None. So it's just like ingrained in me that like when you say when you make a commitment to something. So here's the other thing. Be careful to what you commit to.
- [79:31]
A
Yes.
- [79:31]
B
Be careful when you commit to mentor somebody. Be careful when you commit to something because if it. Because you only have a limited amount of bandwidth. And so. And once you start over committing and you also need to be consistent throughout your whole life. There's a lady that I have worked with for years now and at work she is 100% on and 100% on time on this, on that. Like there is no variance. Like she is there.
- [80:05]
A
Yeah.
- [80:05]
B
But what I noticed with her is that with her family and with her friends it's this cute little joke of her showing up late. Oh well, so and so is going to be. I'm having a hard time not saying her name because I know that and she will know that I'm talking about her and other people will too. But oh well, you know, so and so she's late and she's almost to where it's gone so long that that's what they expect out of her. And I said, you cannot do that. You have to hold yourself. Everybody should know that. That is the standard. It's not cute, it's not funny. You need to hold that to the same standard as work. And she got it. She was like. I guess I never looked at it that way. I'm like, yeah, you cannot. It's how you do anything is how you do everything. Details matter. Everybody is watching.
- [80:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. I've said that. People probably want to hit me over the head because I've said that so much around here. Yeah. That is everything.
- [81:04]
B
Yep.
- [81:04]
A
That's the basis of everything. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I've enjoyed this.
- [81:12]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [81:13]
A
Hopefully you enjoyed as well.
- [81:14]
B
Absolutely.
- [81:15]
A
Sweet. Trench Aid. It's just website. Trenchade.com.
- [81:19]
B
Yeah. Trench-aid.com. trench A D E A D E. Yeah.
- [81:25]
A
All right. Well, thanks.
- [81:26]
B
Thank you.