Give Us the Dirt - Brandon Lindsey (DT 442)

Summary

Dirt Talk Podcast Episode 442 – “Give Us the Dirt: Brandon Lindsey”

Guest: Brandon Lindsey (Hoopa Grading VP, Host of Give Us the Dirt, Co-founder of Dream On 3)
Host: Aaron Witt
Date: May 14, 2026

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[Episode Overview]

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Aaron Witt of BuildWitt and Brandon Lindsey, VP at Hoopa Grading, host of the Give Us the Dirt Podcast, and co-founder of the nonprofit Dream On 3. The discussion centers around leadership journeys, the evolution of workforce development in construction, fostering positive workplace cultures, personal calling and purpose, the value and challenge of ESOPs, and the growing emphasis on health and wellness in the dirt world. Both speakers reflect on hard-learned lessons, the state and direction of the industry, and compelling examples of the transformative power of intentional leadership.

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[Key Discussion Points & Insights]

Brandon’s Journey & Calling

• Career Shift & Personal Change
  • Brandon reflects on leaving a high-trajectory career at Martin Marietta for a calling:

    “My goal was to live the American dream. I wanted to climb that ladder... When it became not the most important thing, I couldn’t flip that switch back on.” – Brandon [03:06]

  • His journey toward founding Dream On 3 came when he felt compelled to act even though it didn’t make logical sense:

    “God just put something on my heart … it made no sense and I didn’t want it … But I couldn’t turn it off.” – Brandon [04:06]

  • The “aha moment” came full circle when Brandon’s own family benefited from the network and experience he’d built through Dream On 3 after his daughter’s accident:

    “I realized that question that had been haunting me for 13 years, like, God… allowed me to be a part of it because he knew we were going to need it.” – Brandon [09:45]

Dream On 3: The Mission, Impact, and Lessons

• What It Is & Why It Matters
  • Dream On 3 grants custom sports experiences to kids with life-altering, not just terminal, conditions (including autism, Down syndrome, mental health challenges).

    “We build an experience around their ultimate sports dream that’s just customized, over the top, and amazing.” – Brandon [05:45]

  • Experiences range from meeting stars to dream events, showing the scale and imagination possible:

    “He said, ‘I want to meet Chuck Norris, take a selfie, and put it on a T-shirt.’ And that’s exactly what we did.” – Brandon [13:21]

  • The construction industry’s generosity has been foundational to Dream On 3’s growth and impact.
• Importance of Perseverance
  • Both Aaron and Brandon talk about persistence through repeated “no’s” and how the most challenging phases eventually give way to fun and success if the vision is clear:

    “Growing the business, the invention side, building... finding a way when there didn’t appear to be a way – I enjoy that part.” – Brandon [14:45] “There were so many no’s. But now that it’s working, it’s like this is totally worth it.” – Aaron [17:23]

Leadership & Culture at Hoopa

• Winning with Vision & Alignment
  • Brandon’s move to Hoopa was based on their culture and vision. Hoopa’s transformation began in earnest with EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System), helping align people, clarify vision, and implement organizational change.

    “The foundation for the culture was there... What was missing was alignment.” – Brandon [30:48] “EOS was huge for us. It was the first time... we could gain traction.” – Brandon [31:35]

  • The hard, necessary process of aligning people sometimes means helping those not on board to move on—essential for evolving from a “pirate ship to a navy”:

    “If you weren’t aligned, then you weren’t on the team.” – Brandon [31:57] “The loyalty thing works against the industry... It’s a two-way street.” – Aaron [32:26]

• Leadership as Enabler
  • Leadership’s role transitions from “manager” to “leader” and “teacher.” This mindset shift is pivotal for sustainable, people-first businesses:

    “Your role is no longer manager. Your role now is leader. Your role now is teacher.” – Brandon [35:18]

ESOP & Ownership Mindset

• Implementing ESOP at Hoopa
  • Hoopa’s recent transition to employee ownership (ESOP) is the culmination of years building an ownership mindset rather than a magic “fix” in itself.

    “The first part was we’ve got to change the mindset... That was the last part of the deal.” – Brandon [38:10]

  • Key changes leading up to ESOP:
    • Leadership development (e.g., extreme ownership boot camp)
    • Moving from annual bonuses to profit sharing
    • Radical transparency and internal communication (dashboarding, showing numbers to all)
  • Communicating ESOP’s meaning:

    “You own it, so own it. That became our tagline.” – Brandon [45:07]

Workforce Development: Problem & Opportunity

• Industry’s Workforce “Crisis”: Reframing the Issue
  • Aaron challenges the notion of a “workforce shortage” as a misdiagnosis; problem is not lack of people, but the industry’s failure to develop, train, and make room for new backgrounds under new workforce expectations:

    “What if the construction industry doesn’t have a workforce problem? … I don’t think the construction industry has actually developed its workforce ever. And I don’t say that as a critique, I just say that because it hasn’t had to.” – Aaron [46:17] “What if it’s us that needs to change?” – Aaron [50:58]

  • Brandon agrees, but also acknowledges unique, multi-generational pressures.

    “They’re being asked to solve yesterday’s problems and tomorrow’s problems and bear all the risks.” – Brandon [51:21]

• Market Shifts & Ownership
  • True transformation requires full leadership buy-in and incremental consistent action, not grand campaigns.

    “They have leadership 100% bought in.” – Aaron [65:24]

Health & Wellness in Construction

• Neglected But Essential
  • The physical and mental health of people in construction is overdue for attention and is foundational to safety and sustainable performance:

    “How can you lead working people when you can’t physically work yourself?” – Aaron (recalling Peter Kiewit’s philosophy) [84:43] “Sports teams spend more and more... The Tom Brady’s, the Michael Jordans... have been the ones that have taken the most care of their bodies" – Aaron [86:28]

  • Construction lags behind mining and other industries in facilitating physical wellness (e.g., healthy food programs, onsite gyms, proactive healthcare).

    “If I want my people to be healthier... why wouldn’t I just offer breakfast and lunch?” – Aaron [92:16]

  • Both agree more could be done to make health a cultural priority, but real, actionable efforts are rare.

The Power of Storytelling

• Changing Industry Narrative
  • Both hosts advocate collecting and sharing personal stories as a way to shift industry perception, humanize challenges, and inspire improvement.

    “The best part of it is the storytelling.” – Brandon [80:05] “There’s something about it that’s in the room... that’s completely missing when it’s on a computer.” – Aaron [83:11]

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[Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments]

On Finding Purpose:

“God just put something on my heart... I couldn’t run away from it... And as we... started doing this... one [thing] started to matter more than the other.” – Brandon [04:06]

On Letting Go:

“As time goes on, I give myself less and less credit... I’m not doing any of this. Like, this is crazy. I mean, I’m doing my best, but even the strength that I have... isn’t even mine.” – Aaron [21:37]

On Company Transformation:

“It’s a different skill set, different people... that enablement and tenacity part is huge at this stage of the game.” – Brandon [16:57]

On Bringing People Along:

“You create alignment... you give everybody the opportunity... there will be people that either just don't want to or can't, which is fine.” – Aaron [32:02]

On Leadership Buy-in:

“I have not seen a single scenario that has worked really well if you don’t have the person at the top 100% bought in.” – Aaron [29:08]

On Humility and Succession:

“It takes that humility... and just genuine care for the team to be able to make a decision, 'I’m going to pull myself out.'” – Brandon [34:35], (on Herb Sargent's succession)

On Health:

“You shouldn’t be going into retirement on fumes... so burnt out that you just sit... for the rest of your life at a retirement home.” – Aaron [90:32]

On Where the Industry’s Going:

“We're not there, we're nowhere close... but we're having the conversations.” – Brandon [76:26]

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[Important Timestamps & Segments]

• Brandon’s background shift, calling, and founding Dream On 3: [02:51–10:47]
• Dream On 3 explained and compared to Make a Wish: [05:42]
• Personal “why” and the impact of his daughter’s accident: [08:42–10:47]
• Leadership philosophies, leaving corporate for purpose: [14:45–19:45]
• Building alignment at Hoopa, EOS, culture change: [30:48–36:33]
• Difficult choices in team composition and culture: [31:57]
• Transitions in the industry and necessity for change: [46:17–56:01]
• Transparency, ESOP, and ownership mindset at Hoopa: [38:10–46:16]
• The importance of health and wellness in construction: [84:18–97:53]
• Storytelling’s role in industry change: [80:05]
• What makes successful contractors in workforce development: [65:24–69:16]
• Encouragement & optimism about industry’s future: [60:15–76:25]

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[Conclusion & Key Takeaways]

• Culture, vision, transparency, and true leadership commitment are the competitive advantage in construction now.
• Workforce “problems” aren’t external—they’re about how companies develop, align, and care for people.
• Ownership models (e.g., ESOPs) only work if there’s already an ownership mindset and transparency.
• Personal well-being, vulnerability, and storytelling are essential as the industry evolves.
• The industry is at an inflection point, starting to move the ball, with new leaders and new energy shaping its future.

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[How to Learn More]

• Dream On 3: dreamon3.org – Watch a video, refer a child, or get involved.
• Give Us The Dirt Podcast: Available on all major platforms – Stories from all over the dirt world.
• Hoopa Grading: Employee-owned, committed to workforce development, a model for culture-driven construction businesses.

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[Final Words]

“I've never been more proud of what this industry is doing and how we're promoting ourselves and what we are today.” – Brandon [60:15]

“I want to play a part in defining the next 250 years.” – Aaron [61:25]

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Transcript

[Aaron]

This episode of the Dirt Talk podcast is with Brandon Lindsey of Hoopah Grading company. Brandon is the VP over at Hoopah. He's also the host of the Give Us the Dirt podcast and the co founder of Dream On Three. He had a long career at a large materials company. Then he switched gears to join Hoopah in 2018, helping to elevate Hoopah into a household industry name. And along the way, he's also turned Dream On 3 into a national leader, making sports dreams come true for children with chronic illness. Hoopa is very well known in the dirt world now for good reason. They have a world class program at developing their workforce and they have seen the benefits of investing in their people. Brandon and the, the hoopa team overall, they've all had a big hand in making that a reality. And, and then not only is Brandon a fantastic leader in the dirt world, but if you're unfamiliar with Dream On Three, give it a search and just look at the pictures. The quality of athletes and experiences that they are facilitating for these, these kids is, is, is, is unbelievable. And to think that this guy has his hand in both things at once while also being, you know, a family man, an industry leader overall, it's just, it's extraordinary. So I love my time with Brandon. I loved this episode. I know you will too. Here it is. I was watching a guy mo the other day and I was like, man, I wish I'd have on him some

[Brandon Lindsey]

of the most peaceful time that you can have.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I, I cannot wait to have a lawn again. I haven't had one. Eight years. Years.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's my retirement plan. I'm just gonna cut grass.

[Aaron]

I think that's a good time. That's what I would do.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It is some of the most peaceful time that you can have. And I love it. But it is. When I listen to my podcast, I listen to yours. I've got a few other ones that I listen to, but. And you've been making the rounds.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've been doing it now since doing this. Since 2020.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it just kind of stacks up. And then we did a lot of half episodes. I mean, we're shoot, we're like probably over 550 up to 600. That's crazy now. Yeah, it's, it's. It's really become something and people listen to it, I guess.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's huge. Yeah, I'm kind of, I was kind of intimidated coming into this, like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be on Aaron's podcast.

[Aaron]

No, no, no, no, you're fine. Have you. Have you changed a lot as a. I mean, I know probably know the answer to this, but you were in a very different position before Hoopa.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, you couldn't have been in a different position. That's not bad. It's just. It's like black and white, though. Like, how long did it take you to adjust to a completely different world? Or did you just like, I've got this.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It didn't take as long. No, it was night and day different. And you're exactly right. You couldn't be more different than what it was versus where it's at now. But there was a lot more than just my circumstances that were part of that. I just made my heart changed. And the things. And through that process, the things that had been important to me weren't as important to me anymore. And so. Well, I mean, my. My goal was to. Was to live the American dream. I wanted to climb that ladder and. And make as much money as I could. I wanted all the things.

[Aaron]

A big dog.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I wasn't a big dog, but I was. I had a good trajectory. You were on your way going. Yeah. And it was. Things were working and. And they were. They were happening for me, but it just. When it's. When it became not the most important thing, I couldn't flip that switch back on.

[Aaron]

How did you even recognize that?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Well, the dream on three thing had hit me. I was about 15 years into my career at Martin Marietta, and I was doing all the things. All the things were happening. All the work that I had done was starting to pay off. I was in a really good spot. And In November of 2012, I just remember God just put something on my heart. And, Aaron, it was. It made no sense. It made no sense, and I didn't want it. I was in a good spot. I was comfortable, which I've learned. God does not want you to be comfortable. But it just. When I just felt like we were being called to do a thing, and I couldn't turn it off. I couldn't run away from it. I couldn't shut it down. I couldn't avoid it. And as we, you know, I shared it with Elizabeth, she said, let's do it. And we started doing this. And for five years while I was still working at Martin Marietta, I was. I was doing both. I was doing my job, and I was building Dream on Three. And during that time, one started to matter more than the other. And that was not fair. It wasn't fair to Martin Marietta and to be honest, with the day I left Martin Marietta was the day that they offered me job I'd been working for for 20 years.

[Aaron]

Really?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, that was, that was my last day and I never will forget that conversation. I went home, I told Elizabeth, I said they offered me the position. And she said, oh my gosh. What did you say? I said, I think I quit. And she said, well, I didn't see that coming. But it was just, that was the crossroads for me. I knew I was going to have to be all in and I couldn't, I couldn't have one foot in and one out.

[Aaron]

Can you give people an overview of what Dream on three is?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. So Dream on three is a sports dream granting organization. We make sports dreams come true for kids that are battling with life altering conditions. And so basically we find out and it's, it's a, you know, most people have heard of Make a Wish and they've seen them, they've been around for 40 years now. Very similar model, but their program was, was reserved for kids that were terminal and life threatening. And ours, we, we've opened it up to life altering, which is, it's opened it up to a population of kids that weren't eligible before. So, you know, autism, down syndrome, mental health. I mean you talk about a group of kids that had access to no programs, there was nothing out there for them. And so it's a different group of kids, but we basically find out what their ultimate sports dream is and we build an experience around it that's just customized over the top and amazing.

[Aaron]

What, what, what, what? Why was that the thing? Why did you choose that?

[Brandon Lindsey]

I didn't choose it. I didn't choose it. That's why it made no sense. I didn't choose it. I didn't know anything about. I had no experience with kids with special needs. I had no experience with nonprofit. I had no, I had very little sports experience at all. I mean I was average sports guy at best, but I knew nobody. I had no contacts, my brother in law played professional baseball, but that was it. That was my only contact. So it didn't make any sense. I didn't, I didn't choose it.

[Aaron]

I.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That sounds weird, right?

[Aaron]

No, but that makes perfect sense to me because that's how I view everything in my life. And I've tried to explain it to people. Like everybody wants a neat, tidy explanation for things. Like I think we as humans, we want explanations and because we want to, we want to think we understand the world around us, but we don't, we don't at all. And I've come to accept that, like, wait a minute. This isn't, I just love what I love. I don't know why, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why I'm the one doing what I'm doing. I can't explain any of it, but I don't need to explain it at the same time, like, I don't need a reason for it. It just, it is what it is.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So let's just, let's work with it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. And Aaron, you don't know when you'll get that, why you don't know when that question will be answered. But I believe it will. I believe it will come.

[Aaron]

I, I, I, I think it, I think it will for those that seek it. I don't think you can do it by just hanging out.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so that, that's one thing. Like, like if you seek, you will find. I think, I think it's an active process, though, and I think that's what people get caught up in is I think they, they're kind of like, they get frustrated in, like, the waiting of it. I'm like, I'm waiting, I'm waiting, I'm waiting. But it's an, it's a very active process. I think, at least it's been for me.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. I mean, the waiting's active. I hate it. That's, that takes, that's active in itself, you know. Well, here's where this story kind of comes full circle. For 13 years, we're building dream on three. And you've seen it. It's been amazing just to see what's happened and we can talk about it later, but I mean, what the construction industry has been for Dream On Three and how, how much of a part of the story that's been is just. I'm so proud of that part, too. But, you know, as we watched this thing grow and started being successful and all the things that we've been building, now, it's starting to happen. It was getting easier. We were making more impact. We started getting money. And I still was wrestling with that. Why it still made no sense. Why me? And then Hannah, my youngest daughter, had her accident in August of 24. She just graduated high school, and she was in a vehicle accident in the backseat, and she broke her back and ended up paralyzed. And so for the next, well, actually the last year and a half, we've been navigating through that as a family. But, Aaron, I never will Forget sitting at the Shepherd Spinal center in Atlanta. And all of a sudden it was like, okay, God. I mean, something that should have been really, really unfamiliar to me was not that unfamiliar. We had walked with families that had been down this road, resources that we should not have had. We had. When we called the Shepherd Spinal center and said, we need to be there, they moved mountains to get us down there. And I realized that question that had been haunting me for 13 years, like, God didn't need me to do Dream on three. He could have done that without me. He allowed me to be a part of it because he knew we were going to need it. This thing we thought we were building was being built for us. And it was that aha Moment. And I just. It. It was the first. But it took 13 years to understand the why behind that.

[Aaron]

It's. It's. Yeah, it's a. Just an unbelievable story. But. But. But something like that, like, it can. So you can take it in the way you've taken it, or you can so quickly be like, hey, why me? Yeah. Whoa. I've been doing all this good here.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And why me? Yeah, yeah, you can make it about you really quickly. Like, I think that's the temptation. I think that's the. That's the path that you naturally want to go down. Like, wait a minute.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And I think I would have had it not been for Dream on three. I think I could have fallen into that mindset if I hadn't seen other families that had to deal with things, too, that didn't deserve it. Like, we'd seen hundreds of families that were dealing with some very difficult situations, and they didn't deserve it either. Kids, you know, and, you know, some had even, like, lost their kids. And there is no answer to that. There is no why. And I think because I witnessed that over the last 13 years, that I never fell into that trap. I never asked the question, why me? In fact, the question was, why not? Why not us?

[Aaron]

Because you're most equipped for it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. And, you know, we were most equipped for it. And, like, we don't get a pass for these things because of what we've done.

[Aaron]

That is just something the. And to cover Dream on three Just a little bit more. It's like, it's not like you're, you know, neighborhood or not. Not. Not to discredit the local sports organization, nonprofit, but it's not like you're going to the ymca. You're dealing with the world's best, biggest athletes on the world's biggest stages with These, like, the experiences are crazy. I see them online. I'm like, I cannot believe that they pulled that off. Yeah. Like in. In. In a. In. In the most positive way possible. Because it. It is so crazy.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It is crazy. It is crazy. I have to stop every once in a while and just. And just remind myself that because we do it so much and the team has grown and it's just become. You know, we were. In the beginning, you know what it was? I mean, you. You've built this thing. It's. You heard. No. Every conversation. Every conversation was. No. It was a closed door. It was a phone call that, you know, they hung up on you, and you have to keep going and. And to get on the other side of that. It's fun now.

[Aaron]

It's.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's a fun time at Dream on three. And, I mean, we've done some crazy experiences. You know, one of the coolest ones was the kid told us, you know, we always tell him, what's your ultimate sports dream? And he wrote down. This young man was. He was battling leukemia, and he wrote down, I want to go to an MMA fight. And his dad said, jack, why do you want to go to. You don't even watch mma. He said, well, I just felt like they could do that. And he said, I didn't think they could really do what I want. And he said, what do you want? He said, I. I want to meet Chuck Norris. Take a selfie and put it on a T shirt. And so he wrote that down, and that's exactly what we did. One of the coolest experiences that we've ever had in the history of Dream Home 3. But that was it. Chuck Norris called him up to the stage at his big banquet, and he said, jack, come get you selfie. And he took it, and we had a T shirt artist on standby right there, and he was wearing it before the banquet was over.

[Aaron]

That is incredible. It was awesome. And that, like. But. But that's incredible. But that's like. That's kind of what you guys do.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's what we do. That's what we do.

[Aaron]

It's like, that's not like the one example. You could sit here for three hours and talk about crazy stuff.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I know.

[Aaron]

Wow. Wow.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yes. The good stuff. Good stuff.

[Aaron]

What. What. What sustained you through all of the nose? Because the. It is a grind. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I've never been good with. No. Anyway, I think, you know, I've always. It's been a soft. Yes. And that part was fun for me. Growing the business, the. The invention side of it, the building side of it, the finding a way when there didn't appear to be a way. I enjoy that part of it, but I also was. I was being driven by something different. And I think that that was what was sustaining. It was. Now is the harder part for me, you know, that. That enablement phase, the tenacity part of the business is not as exciting for me. But we've got a team now that does that. You know, that's when the processes come in. That's when the systems come in and the scaling and the growth and the people. Like, I don't love that part as much, but we've got a team that

[Aaron]

does well and that. The best way I've heard it explained is like, you go from pirate ship to Navy and there's a skill set that serves you to get it going, but then you've got to get rid of a lot of what got it there in the first place, ironically, to then make it something else. And I think, like, that's not just this. I think that's like the dirt world as a whole right now. Absolutely is. What it's struggling with sometimes is you've got this, like, what it takes to build. I mean, you've seen it at Hoopa. What it, what it took to build that contract, that company is, is not what's got the company now to where it is right now. It's. It's. It. And it's. They're not like, one's not bad, one's not good. It's just they're different tools applied at different points in time and different people. And different people. Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

What a great analogy. I love that. Pirate ship to Navy.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's. It makes sense to me.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Makes so much sense. And that's, you know, that's where we're at in both places, Dreamworld 3 and Hoopa. And it's a, It's a different. It's a different skill set, it's a different group of people. It's a different, you know, we, we do a lot of working genius and trying to figure out where you're at in that process. But, you know, that enablement and tenacity part is huge at this stage of the game.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, like, my dream on three recently has been Dirt World. Not that, I mean, there's no kids involved, no. No illness, but we're like, I. It's something I really believe in and I don't know why we've done it really, but we, we have. It's become Something pretty extraordinary. But it was like we just sold out yesterday.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I heard that. Congratulations. That's awesome.

[Aaron]

It. We're in April and the event's in November. Crazy. And I told, I told everybody we'd sell out in Q1, just beginning of Q2, which is okay. But I told everybody this was the year. But it was, it was three years and I, I would work on it every single day. Like not. I wouldn't do eight hours but I would do. You know, I would have to reach out to 10 people a day. And I would do it every day, every day, every day. And there were so many no's. But now that it's working, it's like this is totally worth it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's fun now.

[Aaron]

This is fun.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Congratulations. Aaron is awesome. I saw that or I think Jason text me this morning and told me that. And your sponsors, I mean the sponsors. You're sold out.

[Aaron]

It's just. Well, dream on. Three is involved. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. It's. It's been. It's been incredible. Man. You should be so proud. I know you are. You won't take credit for it but because you've. You got an amazing group. But this was your vision. This was your baby and you stepped into it.

[Aaron]

Kinda like I, I get way too much credit for it because like the build with thing, making the dirt world better, building the dirt world's next generation, that is like I'm driving a lot of that vision. But this event, like I was the one in the room that was like, no, this is kind of dumb. Like we don't need to be doing an event right now. And fortunately I was completely wrong on that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Aaron]

No, I didn't want.

[Brandon Lindsey]

The event was not your brainchild. No, no, I didn't know that.

[Aaron]

I didn't want it. I was like. Because, because we had spent two years just getting our asses whooped. But had we not done it, we would have gone out of business 100%.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Wow.

[Aaron]

Because the cash flow, like it pulled so much cash into that year that we could use to run the company. Like you know, month two of doing it. I'm like, thank God we did this because we would have been cooked. I mean we got by by the skin of. And this was years ago now, but we got by by like the skin of our teeth with it. So it's like without it. No man. And. But that's not why we did it. That's why I love it. Like the intent was really to bring the dirt world together and to build an event that was like, everybody wanted, but was, or everybody was asking for, even if they didn't know it but didn't exist. It was like a complete blank space that we were like, wait a minute. That's our thing.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Aaron, as someone that's been to a lot of this, and I've said this many times, everybody that I talk to about the event, there's nothing else like it. I've been to events and association events, annual, all these different things that are out there for the construction industry. There's nothing like the DART world.

[Aaron]

No.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And Summit.

[Aaron]

No, I agree. You get.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You've built something special. And, you know, the hard part now is how do you keep it? How do you keep it that way?

[Aaron]

Yeah, but I think this is the. This is the fun part is like, all right, cool. And. And we're not competing with any other event. We're just competing with last year, like, how do we make. How do we make it better? How do we make it better? And again, it's like, everybody's like, wow, you're doing great. I was like, I didn't do. I didn't do a single bit of this. I have no. I have no input in the agenda. I mean, every once in a while, I might help recommend somebody, but I. I don't pick the venue. I don't. I don't coordinate anything. Like, I just show up like anybody else. Yeah. I just show up. And. And it's because of this just brilliant team. You know how it is.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's. I do.

[Aaron]

At any business organization doing anything significant, it's this just brilliant team that is able to run that. That. That makes it happen.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I love that. I love your approach to that, too. I appreciate your. Your humility. I. You know, people, we get. I get a lot of the same stuff. Dream on. Three people saying, you know, y' all built this. And I say, I didn't build it.

[Aaron]

No.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But I didn't even want it.

[Aaron]

It's not even humility.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I didn't even do it.

[Aaron]

It's like. It's just a factual.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's just like, the truth.

[Aaron]

I didn't actually do it. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

How'd you come up with this idea?

[Aaron]

I didn't.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I didn't come up with it. But you do get credit for something. You get credit for making a decision to move. And you did do that. You moved into a space that no one else was in, and you made a decision that you were gonna be committed to making this better and that you did.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but but like you said before, too. It's like, yes, I've had to act upon these things, but it's not. It's like, as time goes on, I give myself less and less credit. Like, I used to take a lot of credit, and now I'm like, wait a minute. I'm not doing any of this. Like, this is crazy. I mean, I'm doing my best, but even, like, the strength that I have to do my best isn't even mine. Like, none of it's mine.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which is the. Just the. It's. It's been, like, the craziest realization. And it's still, every day, like, kind of setting in a little bit more and more and more. It's like a. I feel like a fish that just discovered, like, holy smokes, I'm actually in, like, water. Like, what the heck? I had. I had no idea. Like, this whole time. Like, I don't know if that's the best analogy, but I'm now looking around like, whoa, I didn't even know. Yeah. And it's been like this the whole time, but it's taken me three decades to figure it out. And even now, it's like, I don't know if I have it figured out, but it's. It's. It's at least made it a lot more sense to me.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know if it probably just confuses people if I try to explain it externally, but I don't feel like I have to explain it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You don't. I mean, and, you know, I listen to your. Listen to your episode, the shame episode, and I listen to you talk about the freedom and the peace that you've been able to experience by letting go and doing that. And that's what you're talking about, right? You realize, hey, this doesn't depend on me. This isn't all my shoulders. I didn't do this. I didn't build this. What happens tomorrow is not only dependent on me, and there's some freedom, some serious freedom in that. It sounds like you're experiencing that.

[Aaron]

I have no say over tomorrow. Yeah. None. Like, none. It's crazy. Were you planning on how. How did you actually find Hoopa? Were you planning on that or was.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I was not planning on that. That was. That was part of this great plan that God had. So I left Martin Marietta, and the same night, Elizabeth and I are in the living room talking about, what the heck did we just do? And how does this work? And Brian McManus called me. Brian was a client of mine. While I was at Martin Marietta, he was also a friend. I mean, we, we had gone on trips together and you know, our wives knew each other. Just, I had a lot of respect for Brian. And we ended up talking that night for whatever reason was just out of the blue. And I told Brian I'd left my job. And he said, what are you going to do? I think I'm going to give his Dream on three thing a go. And he said, why don't you have dinner with me tomorrow night? And so the next night I had dinner with Brian. And Brian, we talked for a little while and he, he slid across the table a piece of paper and it was his Vision Traction organizer. They had just gone through EOS Traction and everything and they'd gone through the process. And he said, this is where we're going. He said, I need someone to help me kind of pull this together. And I said, brian, I don't know anything about grading. I don't know anything. I can't help you with that. And he said, I don't need you to know grading. He said, I need you to know people. He said, I need you to help me build a team that can do this. And that was it. And I showed up on Monday, I didn't know, I mean, we never talked about what he was going to pay me, if he was going to pay me. I didn't know if I had an office or what. He just said, just show up Monday, we'll figure this thing out. There was no job description, nothing. And it's been so much fun having a blast. And the other thing it's done too is I never wanted to draw a paycheck on Dream on 3. I never wanted to do that. Not that it's wrong. People that are in non profit, you need to be making money, you should be making money doing it for me. I just never wanted to do that. And someone had told me a long time ago, never put yourself in a position where you can't afford to do the right thing. And I wanted to keep that. I just wanted to keep it pure. Yeah, I wanted to make sure that every decision was for the right reasons. And so hoopa has allowed me to do that. I haven't had to draw a dime on Dream 1 3.

[Aaron]

That's crazy. That's a Brian one. Brian plays dumb. He's really good at playing dumb. But he's, he's, he's a genius. He knows what the heck's going on.

[Brandon Lindsey]

He's a genius. Yeah, he is.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I'm like, you're not following me, buster. I.

[Brandon Lindsey]

He plays that card well.

[Aaron]

He plays it. He plays it better than most people I've seen in this world. Yeah. And I think some of it's kind of like the slow southern draw a little bit.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. Work it. Use it to your advantage.

[Aaron]

You know what's going on.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that. One, two. There is so much value in vision, and I think it's so underutilized in business, and there's so many people that's like. Like I've. I've recruited and retained people within this business, like everybody at this business, largely because, like, sure, we've paid people along the way, like you do. The business has to work. But really because of the vision and the mission and the opportunity, like, that's kind of it. I mean, I. All the time I ask myself, like, why are these people around? I mean, they. They don't need to be here. They're. They're probably better off elsewhere. In a lot of cases, if you looked at it on paper, you compared the two, and yet they're still here. And again, like, you, still. You. You. You have to uphold basic promises. You can't be a terrible place to work, and you do need to take care of their family and, like, they have to pay their mortgage, et cetera. But vision is a weapon, and it's. It's not to be. You have to. It has to be genuine. But I think it's so underutilized and underappreciated, especially right now with how many people are struggling for workforce.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I agree.

[Aaron]

It's like, dude, if I'm going to get on your boat, where are we going? You can't tell me, then why am I getting on your boat? Yeah. Makes no sense.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's. That's a lot of them. Right now. It's just like, okay, so you're just spinning in circles or like you're old. Where does the business go?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

What happens if. Or the whole business is run by you. What happens if you're hit by a bus tomorrow like that? To me, that's a liability. I feed my family with this business. And so if I don't see that clear picture, I don't see that path. Why. Why am I coming to work for you?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

And I think that that's where a lot of people are right now. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Brian, he is an incredible visionary, I think, where. You know, and the other thing about it, too, it's one thing to have a vision, but you got to back it up.

[Aaron]

Well, then you have to go do it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Then you got to buy And Brian. But he did. You know when it wasn't this hey I see this future for hoopa grading. It was and I'm. I'm committed to making sure that you've got everything you need to pull it off. Like backing it up, writing the check when you have to write the check and making the calls that hey we're going to do this even if it hurts us over here. But committed to it. That burn the ship's mentality. That's what it was with Brian.

[Aaron]

It's the. But that's the only way to make it work.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I have not seen a single scenario that has worked really well if you don't have the person at the top 100% bought in. Yeah, I haven't seen it anywhere. Yeah, I haven't seen it. You can. And we can sit here and count, you know what are the most respected civil construction companies right now that aren't the big legacy brands. And I don't think they're among the most respected anymore in a lot of ways. But the sergeant corporations, the Emery Sapp and Sons, the, the C.W. matthews, the good Fellows. You can go down the list and you can trace it right back to someone at the top 100% bought in. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You got to have it. Obviously it doesn't work without that. It doesn't work because if someone sees a kink in the armor they're going to. They're not going to do it. They're going to choose out of it. I mean if. If Brian had not said I don't care, let the machine sit. We're going to train today. No one would have done it.

[Aaron]

What was the. I think people because. Because of what you guys have done. Hoopa is I think pretty well known in the industry right now for. And it's amazing because you guys are a local contractor, you know working still mostly in just a state which is incredible. I can go talk to somebody in Arizona that knows who HOOPA was or. Or is like 10 years ago that wouldn't have been. That's out of the question. What was. I think people see the business as it is today. What was it like when you walked in? Because it. I know it wasn't like it is today. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

When. So when I walked in you still had the foundation for the culture was there. That's Brian. Brian had. He had established that there was a culture. Matter of fact that was one of the things that drew me to hoopa. That's probably one of the Only contractors I would have left Martin Marietta to go work for because of the culture. They were always known for that. And then we went back to Larry Hoopa that created that. What was missing was alignment. We had some people that were in place that we had competing agendas. We didn't know where we were going and we didn't have a plan. EOS was huge for us. It was, that was the first time. Now granted, we've, we've kind of taken it, you know, now we've, we've HTC'd it.

[Aaron]

We have to. Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And, but in the beginning it was exactly what we needed to be able to gain traction. It was a game changer for us. But through that process, you pop that hood, you start to see where you've got some problems. And we really just started trying to get our house in order and make sure that we had everyone aligned.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And if you weren't aligned, then you weren't on the team.

[Aaron]

And, and that I think is an, that's another thing that I've seen that is the only way I've seen it done is either you, you create this alignment. Here's where we're going. We want everybody to come along with us and you give everybody the opportunity to come along with you. But there will be people that either just don't want to or can't, which is fine. Like, and if they don't want to, that's okay too. But I think that's where like the loyalty thing I think really works against the industry because while they've been loyal, we need to be loyal. And it's like, well, it's a two way street and that's a bill that I have to pay every day. And so if I'm not doing my part, like I've been doing my part for 30 years, but I'm not doing my part going forward. Well, it doesn't. Thanks for the 30 years, but, but it doesn't math anymore.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

And the, the businesses that I've seen do this most successfully, like I think transition, I think from the old model to the new model is what I. And I can explain that more in a moment. But the ones that have transitioned, they've had to turn, turn people over to make that a reality. They've defined it, but then they've brought some people along, but then they've had to turn other people over to then make room for new people to, to further. To. Sure. Because. Because if you're gonna go somewhere different, you can't bring the same People, by definition, it doesn't work.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's gonna happen to us one day. We're gonna get to that same point to where we're. They're going somewhere we don't want to go.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. Or. Yeah, it's like. Like.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Or we can't take them.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah. And I. This is where. But this is where I really appreciate and just. Just more and more and more I respect Herb. Like, he's so. He. He's. He is, I would say, and he. And he would really, like, wince at this, but he is. He is the example the industry needs and that previous generation needs, because he just stepped away from Sergeant Corporation. Right. He still has room to run, man. He could have stayed at that business for another 10 years. But I think it was largely like, I'm going to hold this company back, and I'm going to hold this team back. I've done my part now, and I've. I've developed a leadership that. That can now run without me. I've got to get out of the way.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Can you imagine how hard that is? That's a tough spot.

[Aaron]

That is a tough spot.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's a tough spot to be, but it takes that humility.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And just genuine care for the team to be able to make a decision that, hey, I'm going to pull myself out of that.

[Aaron]

How do you. How do you align everybody? Like, what are the mechanics of that?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, I think that was the part that I was able to help the most. And, you know, the galvanizing the team behind it. Brian had the vision, and then getting everyone to see it is where we. That's where. That's where I felt like I was able to help with some of it. You. You start to show them how, number one, they got to see how it benefits them and some of the frustrations that they have each and every day out on the job that continue to be the same frustrations every day that this. The same ones that were there 10 years ago. Like, this is the only way we get out of that hamster wheel. This is the only way we start to do. We have to train. And if we do this, it equals freedom. You start to experience some freedom, and you start to experience some fun. And. But your role is no longer manager. Your role now is leader. Your role now is teacher. And we had to shift that mindset. And it was painful. It was painful. But I think people, once they realized it and once we. That was the process, you know, we. And I'll tell you, that was kind of the foundation that we wanted to build it was that we started with that leadership development, getting our people aligned. But once it clicked and once they saw that we were committed to this, that Brian was committed to this, you saw the culture change, you really start to see them getting. I mean, it was. Everyone was resistant to it in the beginning.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. But once they start to see some of the benefit, because it. That's the cool thing about this, is everybody wins.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You win.

[Aaron]

There's no loser here.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, everybody. The company makes more money. Everybody makes more money. There's less stress, there's less frustration, there's less incompetence. There's less rework, equipment damage, slipping schedules. Like, it sounds optimistic and maybe naive, but I've seen it now play out too many times to not believe in it. Yeah. And it happens within a few years. Like, this isn't. I mean, you guys started in 2018. We're sitting here in 2026. But, I mean, you guys are now known for being where you are. It's been years. So this was. I mean, really a few years to transition, to change the mindset. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. It was a few years to do that before we could really start seeing the needle move.

[Aaron]

And you haven't gone back to the old way, so it must.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No, no, it's. It. We're here.

[Aaron]

There's must be doing something for you.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. This is it. I mean, but I mean, there's always what's next? How can we get better? We're not resting in that. But, yeah, it took. It was. It took a while to change the mindset, but that was essential. You know, you go. You talk about Herb. Love the man. I mean, just. He's. There's no one like him. He's great. And matter of fact, when Brian and I went to Maine, spent some time with him. He's the one that introduced us to the Aesop model.

[Aaron]

He's introduced, like, the industry to the Aesop model now. Not that they're the first. And he won't take credit for it because he got it largely from memory, SAP and Sons, and you have others like Garney, Petticoat, Schmidt. But, like, I think he's made it, made it known.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It was great. And the way he explained it, he. I still remember him. He took the whiteboard, and he just kind of laid it all out in a way that it's a very complicated process, and he found a way to make it simple, that we could understand it. And three years later, I mean, just this past October, we announced, you know, we did the transaction to an esop. And he was a huge part of that. But that could not happen without changing the culture, without changing the mindset of the people that already have an ownership mindset. The transaction. That was the last part of the deal, the first part was we've got to change the mindset of our people.

[Aaron]

And that's interesting because there's a lot of people batting Aesop around and almost as like a vehicle to drive ownership. But I've seen it. I've seen companies that are ESOPs that have really no benefit to being an ESOP. Honestly, like, no change whatsoever. Because I don't think it's like, sure, there's like, there's like the tax advantage and there's some significant. There's some significant advantages, but I think you really exploit the model in a positive sense by. Through culture and through people.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's the power.

[Aaron]

But you got to build that almost beforehand or else it doesn't quite work. Or it's. It's, you know, it's a five to ten year journey once you do it. Which I think, like Sergeant Corporation is a great example. Like, this wasn't something that just took off for us. And Herb says it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh, yeah, he's very transparent about that. Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. And so those were. We actually had a few steps that we needed to check off before the transaction was there. You know, one of them was the ownership mindset. And we did that. We invested a lot in our leaders. We put them through extreme ownership, changing that mindset. Boot camp. We did the whole bit really trying to get them to think like an owner. This is yours. We the owner. Another thing we did, we got rid of our bonus program. And construction companies are notorious for just handing out a bonus at the end of the year. You know, it becomes it's a Christmas bonus. And, and, but we got rid of that and we turned it into a profit sharing program. And so we slowly started to change the mindset that, hey, we're not just giving you a gift here at the end of the year. I see now you're going to share. Yeah, you're going to share in the profitability of the company or if there's no profit, you know, there's nothing to share. And so we started change. We changed that a couple of years ago. And then when you do that, you also have to. You got to become transparent. So with a bonus, you can just hand a check and there's no. Why. Why is it this? Why is it not this? With profit sharing they need to know the numbers. And that was something new for us. And Brian was really adamant about we're going to become transparent. We started our Metric Minds program, we started putting the reports out, we started sharing the numbers, being very transparent about the performance of the company. Brian started going live on, on workplace with the team, the internal communications and he'd say here's where we're at. And sometimes it was, it doesn't look good this quarter. Like we, this is going to be a bad quarter but here's what we've got to do between now and the end of the year to make it up. But that transparency had to be there. You can't ask them to think like an owner but then withhold the information

[Aaron]

and, and I, I, that's probably the norm unfortunately. Everybody wants their people to think like an owner and to, to, to, to take ownership and to act trusting but they don't get, they don't, they don't give it to them. And it's like, well that I could tell you, I think a 6 year old could tell you that that's not going to work. It's just, and I've talked a lot about this like, and we've done, we've been, we've been, we've been good and bad but I think I, I think there's a lot of internal criticism like transparency wins has been a core value since the beginning. We've always shared a lot of information and we've only gone wrong when we've not shared information. And because it can work against you as well as it can work for you. Like if one, if you don't educate people about the information that's, that's a bad situation waiting to happen because business finances are almost have no similarity to personal finance. And then two, you can't be selectively transparent. You just, you're either just share the good news. Yeah. You're either, you're either all in or you're all out. Right. And people are really smart, people are really perceptive. You're not fooling anybody. And we've always been better off when we've, when we've been more transparent and when we've educated people more about how the business works and what we're actually doing.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Well, hats off to you. You've been, Transparency is not one of the issues that you have.

[Aaron]

No, it's double edged sword.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But yeah, I mean you guys have been extremely transparent but it, that, that's, you have to have that to have the trust.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Otherwise they're not going to trust you.

[Aaron]

But that's. That's another thing that, like, I've scratched my head. I don't know how we would do it without it. Like, we would have been out of business years ago had we not actually shared stuff. I don't know how now that I've done this, I couldn't ever go to a business that doesn't share information. It would drive me nuts. I'd make it like two days. I'm like, so I can't share this. Like, how do they know what they're doing?

[Brandon Lindsey]

How do they help me solve it?

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, to me, it doesn't make any sense at all.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

And not that we're like, we're not the gold standard when it comes to sharing, but. But we now. I mean, even now, we're trying to get this dashboard out more and more. I mean, I could pull up a dashboard right now. I could tell you exactly where we sit financially right now at. At any time, any day, any hour. So. And. And. And anybody can see that now it's

[Brandon Lindsey]

gotta be that way. I love that. It's really a huge part of the culture. Yeah, I love that y' all do that. But that was in. I mean, that was the foundation, and so we built that foundation, and then. Then we were ready for the transaction.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Brandon Lindsey]

October was just. That was the end. The transaction was. I say the easy part, but it was. It was the last piece, not the first.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But there again. And there's complications to that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's so complicated. It's so common. And that's probably the hardest part of an ESOP is how do you take something that is very complicated and make it simple? And Brian, he was a master at this. So I remember sitting in the room, I said, brian, that's our goal. We've got a marketing department. How we roll this out to the team is important. The message is important. Otherwise we're going to lose the power of what an ESOP can be. If we don't get this right, we could really lose it. I said, in your mind, in the simplest way, what does an ESOP mean to you? And here he sat back and he said, you own it, so own it. And I said, that's brilliant. That's it. And he said, oh, man, I. Just kidding. I'm just throwing. I said, brian, that is it. And so that became our tagline. And there was so much. You know, there was so much wisdom in the simplicity. It was like, hey, it's yours. Own it. Own the solution. On the decisions. Like if that machine's sitting, imagine you're writing the, the payment check for that. You're writing the payroll checks.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. Or just. Yeah, yeah, we're wasting material or. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

On the problem. Own the solution. Yeah, you own it. So own it.

[Aaron]

That's amazing.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, so we adopted. That was fun.

[Aaron]

It's. I think it's. It's, it's, it's. It's good timing. You're here because we're. We're trying to work through right now how to explain. We're trying to explain the problem in the construction issue right now. And I think, like, humor me for a moment. Sit here and, yeah, you should be the one talking on our podcast. But I'm gonna sit here and. No talk. Talk for a moment. I don't. What if the construction industry doesn't have a workforce problem? And I, I don't think the construction industry has actually developed its workforce ever. And I don't say that as a critique. I just say that because it hasn't had to. It's had people that have shown up on job sites with background knowledge. They grew up around the trades. They worked on the family car. They grew up on a farm, so they already had background knowledge. It came up with people that could make mistakes. You could roll equipment, you could bang into stuff you could screw up. And that's how they learned. You learned on the job. On the job training, which removed training. It's on the job screwing stuff up, getting yelled at, and never doing it again.

[Brandon Lindsey]

There.

[Aaron]

There were less people going to college. There were more people of working age. In previous generations, there was a. There was more infrastructure to build in previous generations. There were less career paths available. And there was a. There was a greater need for financial stability. So you stuck with a company for longer than now. I think purpose is higher up on the value chain than, you know, a mortgage and a 401k. So there were all these conditions that I think that. That worked really nicely with the construction industry. And then the whole thing's changed. The United States has dramatically changed. Now they're like me, showing up on job sites with no background knowledge. But now there's safety rules and laws and lawyers and insurance companies that don't allow for any mistake whatsoever. There's no training development at all. There's. There's. There's nothing really happening. So I'm still expected to learn on the job, but I can't make mistakes. A lot of people are going to college. I have more options than ever before. Again, Purpose is, is most important to me. So I'm probably not going to stick around a long time. And, and so now the construction industry doesn't really line up with that reality all that well. And which is why we can't get the people we need. But then we've put a term on it that is, well, this workforce problem that I've been the number one champion of, I'm the number one idiot in line saying it's a problem like poor us. And I haven't been saying poor us, but I think a lot of people are. It's like, poor us, we're just out here, we're just trying to build the world, man. And no one appreciates us, no one cares for us. And everybody's running off to college. And it's like all of those things can be true, but we have, we have no say in college. I have, I have. It's so silly to think that I can go convince people not to go to college. Like, okay, yeah, me up against a multitrillion dollar industry backed by the United States government. Like, yeah, okay, but what I can change is me. Like, what if the solution, what if we're just not good enough? And what if the industry is just not equipped to compete in the modern workforce environment, which it's not. It's reflected in the numbers. And we can go argue about all these things and we can be right, but we can still be wrong. Yeah, what if it's us? What if it's us that needs to change? What if we need to do things better? What if we need to develop people? What if we need to really develop our workforce? I think even the term workforce development is like, we just need more people in. It's like, yeah, okay, cool. You can get all the people in you want. They're still bouncing out at the, the highest rate ever. You're retaining less than half of people under the age of 25 that you're drawn into the construction industry right now. That's not the problem. The problem is you. The problem is you. And I think that's like the best, most concise way that I can explain it. And I believe it's this way because every company that's not having a problem is developing their workforce is hoopla.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, no, you make a good point. It's definitely our problem. It is our problem. And here's my thoughts on this. Aaron, you're so right. I have a lot of empathy for business owners, construction business owners right now. And you said it, I mean, in so many ways. They're being asked to solve yesterday's problems

[Aaron]

and tomorrow's problems and bear all the risks.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And bear all the risks. You know, they're having to. You know, Elizabeth and I were talking about this on the way here. You know, her dad was in construction, my dad was in construction. They didn't have to think about culture. They didn't have to think about caring for their workforce. They didn't have to think about leadership development and community and all these other things. And so you're right, there's these companies that have been passed on and been handed to the next generation, but they have broken foundations, they've got piping that needs to be replaced. There's a lot of work that they're trying to fix from yesterday and at the same time being hit with the headwinds of, of legal and work comp and insurance and, and the impact of tariffs and fuel and cost. Like it is, it is hard. It is hard. And I'm not making excuses for them because I know you see it too. I mean, you're on the front lines, you're. You're out there, you've got a front row perspective of all this. And so you, you see how, what all they're dealing with. But I do think pressure is, it's just an explanation, it's not an excuse. I do think there is a lot that we're asking them to do. On the flip side of that, I think the needle's moving. I think with the work that you're doing here and your team, it's working. We're seeing, at least I'm seeing people are having the conversation now. And yeah, it's a lot of talk, it's a lot of noise, but they're talking about it. I think we're finally seeing people start to own their pipeline problems. Instead of blaming. I see them building now.

[Aaron]

I agree.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I think it's. I think they're starting to own it. I think we're doing a much better job of telling our story. You know, where we used to be invisible. I don't think we're that anymore. And so I say all that to say is I don't think we're ready to spike the football right now, but we're moving the ball.

[Aaron]

We are. Yeah. And I, and, and I, yeah, I used to do this in a bad way. I used to say everybody's wrong, which is very.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Well, yeah, that's not the most inspiring.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go figure. I found that one out. It took me a few years to figure it out, though. But. But it's. It's like, yeah, we've been living in this house, and it's been a great house, man, but this kitchen kind of sucks.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Now

[Aaron]

we need a remodel. Like, just because it's been this great house doesn't mean it's going to last another 50, 100 years. Like, it's been great. But what's next? What's. What's next? What's. What's going to serve us better? What's going to. All right, this was my dad's house, and it served, you know, me growing up, but now I have a new family, and it doesn't serve my family right. So maybe I knock it down and build on the same fertile ground, but build something that does serve my family. And I think we're in the middle of that transition. We're still, I think, on the early side of it, but I'm just. The cool thing about Dirt World now is like, oh, wait, we have the people that get it. I don't need to sell this. I don't need to convince people. It's like, you either get it or you don't. And if you don't, you either will or you'll go out of business. There's only two. And it doesn't matter how big you are, how big you're. What your stock's trading for right now, how many years you've been in business. I think this is like gravity. If you. And you can only rig, a lot of them, have rigged the market in their favor for a very long time, but you can only rig it for so long that this will come to. Come. Come home to Rooster. But let's just feed. Let's just work harder with those that get it and force the market to change at the same time. Because along the way, hoopa, you're more competitive, you're making more money, you're more profitable, which then feeds more investment into your people, which then allows you to do projects even better on better timelines, with better quality, with. With. With less headaches for the developer, the GC or whoever it is. Like, it's just. It's. It's just better all around, which will then force, I think, the market to come along. But I think our solution. It sounds so stupid, but the solution is workforce development, which everybody's talking about, but no one's really done it because they haven't had to do it until now.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that. And that's part of the problem, too, is so much talk Right now. I mean, it's so noisy out there, Aaron. No, but the noisiest. No, but you're on the front lines. Like, there are people that really understand. And I, you know, everyone is a leadership expert nowadays.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And you see. But there are some expert. There are people that are truly on the front lines, and there's some very good, you know, I think about the. I mean, you had Michael Bowman on the podcast. Michael's great. Wally, you know, Alex Judd. I mean, some of these people that are out there seeing it and living it and they've got the battle scars to be able to speak to it, but then there's so much other noise out there and everyone's trying to follow what somebody else is doing, and they've got no identity in that. And I think that becomes hard. Like, what's real? What's not real? Like, do it, but do it your way. But there's so much talking. And I think the companies that you mentioned, the ones that. We got our problems and I appreciate what you. We've still got a lot of work to do, and we've got our problems, but the one thing we're not doing is waiting for an easier time to solve them. It's not going to get easier. No, there's not going to be a better time to do this. So, yeah, there's a lot of headwinds right now, but there's gonna be hit. There's gonna be more.

[Aaron]

But that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

If we don't do that.

[Aaron]

But that's a great point too, though, is like, there's headwinds, but there's. This has also been the craziest economy. The past five years has been the craziest economy in anybody's lifetime in America. It's. Nothing's ever been even comparable.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So it's like, if we can't do it right now, we have to do it right now. Because I think to Herb's point, too, it's like, you've got a lot of construction businesses out there, too. They're. They're hanging by a thread. Like, they're, they're right on the edge. They're on that. They're on that knife's edge largely because of growth. I think growth has caused a lot of that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Like, it exposes a lot of problems.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you've got. To his point, you've got to build the altitude. You've got to like, hey, you're. You're flying at the trees right now. You've got to get up a little higher because if those Engines go out, you can glide and you can problem solve. If your engines go out at trees, you're cooked. And I think that's one of his, his fears, which is. I think one of his big motivators right now is like, how can I help these business owners get better with their, their companies and get healthier now? Because it's really good right now. And that's. This is when we need to do it. Because who knows what happens in the future?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And maybe, maybe what's happening just goes forever.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Maybe.

[Aaron]

But $40 trillion of debt, more wars than I can count. Some, some just like crazy changes in the marketplace driven by AI technology, energy. Like, you can go down the list to, to make the bet that the trees are just going to grow to the sky is a little silly. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Doesn't seem sustainable.

[Aaron]

No. Yeah. And I don't think it should be sustainable. I think, I don't think the path we're on is sustainable as a country. Like, that's my. I, I just, just indefinite growth and consumption. It's not a winning formula.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I agree.

[Aaron]

It doesn't work.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, no, it's. It's got to change. But I am encouraged. I do see it changing. Yes. I do see it changing. And again, I know you don't want credit, but your team, y' all deserve credit for that. You at least have helped us to wake up, to acknowledge it and to own it. And I think you've got. There are some incredible leaders out there, and Brian's one of them like you, that are willing to be humble, that are willing to be coachable and teachable and willing to change and say, hey, you know what? I'm not playing the blame game anymore. We're gonna start building.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

We're gonna start doing that. And I think those companies are gonna be the ones that survive this. But I. Yeah, but I think everyone's starting to get it now. And the conversation's changing, the pipeline's changing. I think the narrative is changing the story of our industry. I've never been more proud of what this industry is doing and how we're promoting ourselves and what we are today. I think, I think it's great.

[Aaron]

And I think it's the beginning. Like, I. It's a really interesting time for America. It's like the way I look at it, we've been around for 250 years. That's about when empires go the way the dinosaur, historically speaking. And it's an unfair comparison in a lot of ways, but it's like 250 years is a run, man. Like, that's, That's a long run. And I think we are at this. This junction. Whether it's next year or in 25 years, I don't know, but I think we are at this junction that's like, we had a good run. This was a really interesting experiment. We're gonna wind this thing down now.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. Or

[Aaron]

we have a generation that comes in and says, no, no, no, no, no, fuck that. We're gonna go define the next 250 years. And that's where, like, I want to play a part in that. And I think that's driven by infrastructure. I think the quality of a society and the future of a society and the future of coming generations is. Is largely dictated by the quality of infrastructure, and that's what this world does. So to me, there's nothing. There's no problem that I could go pick. That's bigger and more exciting, I think. And, and, and no ride that I, I could, I could have gotten on that. That, that. That could be more impactful and that. And, and I'm speaking on behalf of the industry. It's like you, Brian, Herb, everybody. Like, we're on that ride and I'm trying to go. I'm like, guys, this is a really cool ride. Get on board.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Like, starting to become fun now.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Like, this is only really getting going. And, and, and, and the best is by far yet to come. And, and it's, it's cool. It's like, even. Did you go to Con Expo this year?

[Brandon Lindsey]

No. And we had a team down there. I didn't, I didn't go this time.

[Aaron]

Even Con Expo was different. It wasn't. The equipment manufacturers cannot get out of their own way. And I'm, I'm okay with just saying that more and more publicly now. They, they cannot see past their own two feet. I don't blame them. They're publicly traded. They've got to manage for next quarter. I, you know, I. Good for them. And, and it's a very complicated. They're global players. I don't. I couldn't even manage the. How many paper clips they order. Like, Like, I, I don't get it. But while the, the show itself looked identical to the past six years.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I heard you say that. Yeah, same thing.

[Aaron]

Just carbon copy.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Different color.

[Aaron]

Not even different colors. What was different was the, the people in the conversation. And it's like. And, and the sessions that they had and how many people were going to the sessions. And the speaker it's like, this is different. This is different. And, and like at. And I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here. At risk of giving us a little. A little too much credit. It's like our paws are on a lot of this. Like our greasy little hands. I can see our fingerprints on some of this stuff happening here, which is awesome. Like, I don't. They don't need to call me and have me involved in anything whatsoever, which they did this year. Why. Why have him. I don't need to be the guy. I'm fine with that. It only hurts my feelings a little bit. And I do have a big ego, so I only take it a little personally.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But it. Which only just drives me more and more and more to do all the other stuff I'm doing. But you, like, you get over those basic primal human emotions and you're like, wait a minute. We don't need any credit for any of this. Yeah. What's the goalpinning? Yeah. Yes. It's happening. And let's make it happen even more.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

How good is this? Yeah. So it. Which is. Which was to me.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And you saw that?

[Aaron]

Yes, Yeah, I saw it. I felt it. Yes, yes. So, yeah. If I would have taken a picture of the event, it would have been like, is that 2020? But, but the, the feeling, the, the people, the conversations, who they were bringing in to speak and what they were speaking on and how many people were going to the sessions. It's like, okay, this is. This is dramatically different than. Than even just a few years ago.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's encouraging.

[Aaron]

Very, very, very, very. And they. They did a really nice job with the programming this year. Yeah. So, so huge shout out. It's not even a criticism. It's like, this is great.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. I think it's moving here and I really do. I think the needle's moving.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You see a lot. You. I mean, you're all over the place. You're meeting with these companies and these business owners, the ones that are getting it right. What. What is it that they have in common?

[Aaron]

They have leadership. 100% bought in.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. A commitment.

[Aaron]

I have not done it. I've not seen it done another way. And then what happens is, because now that it's been happening now you can kind of. It's. It. We're at a really cool time because it's like, wait a minute. There were a lot of like, very traditional companies and Hoopa was probably a traditional contractor.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In most regards. When you came in the door. I don't think. I think Hoopoe's in this category, Sargent's in this category, Matthews is in this category. And a lot of, like, I think all of the contractors that everybody's looking at right now, not that long ago, were like everybody else, which isn't, again, a criticism. It was because the market was different. And that's what, that's what got them there.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's what they had been handed. That's what they, that's what they inherited.

[Aaron]

Yes, but they're, you see, leadership, acknowledge, like, there's a better way to do this. And I am the one that's responsible. I'm the one in the way. Let's get going. And then they start chipping away little

[Brandon Lindsey]

by little by little.

[Aaron]

It's never a dramatic shift. It's never this big campaign or anything like that. It's like, let's just chase improvement little by little, every day. What's one thing we can start doing better? It's all right. Man, our onboarding sucks. Our onboarding isn't even, it's not even existent. Yeah, we're just sending people out to job sites. We're not even talking to them before we send them out. Like, shoot, maybe we need to have half day of onboarding. And what does that look like? And who needs to be involved in that? And, and what do we talk to them about?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

And then they make some onboarding. You know, it's, it's like, it's stuff like that. Or, man, our, you know, looking at our job site, I have no idea who's doing the work. Like, we're, we're, we're not proud of our, of our brand. Our people are wearing different vests, like, shoot. And the hard hats are all a mess. And there's, there's not even a sign on the gate like, let's, let's clean, clean some of this stuff up. Let's, let's. You know what? I want our site vehicles cleaned once a week. You know, we are going to prioritize shoveling the tracks and sweeping out the cabs of our equipment because we need to take pride and we need to drive discipline within our organization. I can give you 100 examples like that. But all it is is like, you know what? There's a better way to do this. I'm gonna 100 commit. And then the coolest thing is, like, a guy that, you know, two guys that are great examples of this that don't get enough credit. Glenn Baranko up in North Dakota, you'd love Glenn and Judd Palmer in Utah. They've been both been on the podcast maybe in the past year. Okay. You. Kind of like, they're kind of like they were older dogs in some regards. Like, they're not young guys. They're not 31, like me. Sorry, guys. But. And they know that. And they didn't really have to do anything differently. Like, they were. They were doing just fine. But then they. They made this commitment a few years ago, and you can see it, like, when you talk to them. You can, like, hear it almost like the excitement. Like, they're like. They're almost like a little kid again. They're like, this is really cool, and it's amazing. And they're not without their problems as well. Like, every company. Every company has problems, but now you have that, like, excitement because they're seeing their people benefit and grow, and their people are bought in and the conversations are changing and they're growing, but they're just, like, they're just growing.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because now they have the right people in leadership. Not because there's more market.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Not because they focused on growth.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah, they're just like. They're just growing because it's like, wait a minute. We were. That was the limit, people.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Those are the best stories.

[Aaron]

It is.

[Brandon Lindsey]

So the ones that have lived the other side of it and they. They. They. They're still able to switch. They still have another gear.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And they're able to find that again.

[Aaron]

And it's like, I like. I like Glenn as a great example because like, a hoopa. Like a criticism of hoopa. Not a criticism, but it's like, okay, they're in one of the hottest markets in America. And it's like, yeah, that's true. Fair.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Charlotte is not that great. Aaron, quit hyping it up. Right now.

[Aaron]

The secret's out on that everybody and their mother's gone to Charlotte. And like, in the market, I mean, to run as many people as you do in the radius that you do, that's only possible in. In a few markets in America. Like, it's. It's really unique. So there was like, sure, there is part of that. And so that then feeds. Like, you can invest more in a central training facility.

[Brandon Lindsey]

True.

[Aaron]

Because you can get a majority of your workforce there and you don't have people out of state. And it does help, like, facilitate some of this stuff. And it's a good labor market. There's a lot of availability. Whereas, like, Glenn, he's in Dickinson, North Dakota.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

That's not, like, the most dynamic place in America, you know, And. And so it's like.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And they're having to chase work.

[Aaron]

Yeah. They're going all over, and. And that's hard. That's just a hard market. It's. It's as seasonal as it gets, and yet they're still seeing the same results. So it. Like, you can get rid of that criticism pretty easily with a company like that. It's like, listen, if this wasn't gonna work, it wouldn't work in North Dakota.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's impressive. I don't even know how you do that when. When your people aren't together and they're all over the place.

[Aaron]

It's really hard.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's impressive.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. So.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But they figured it out.

[Aaron]

Yes. Well, and they're figuring it out. Like, I don't think Glenn would sit here and be like, yeah, yeah, we got it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, we arrived.

[Aaron]

First one to be like, dude, the more I get into this, the more work we have to do. But that's the fun of it. Like, that's. Yeah, that's why we're in business. That's the whole game.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I think that's when you get the buy in, when people start to see, all right, this is starting to pay off now. I'm seeing it now. I'm seeing people enjoy their jobs a little bit more. They're giving me 110% today, and I couldn't get that before.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah. And they're growing, and, like, there's nothing cooler than somebody young. And, like, they kind of get it, you know, like, you've probably seen it a hundred, hundreds of times.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh, yeah. It's great. That's what we work for. We love those moments. That's what it. That's what makes it all worth it. Mm.

[Aaron]

Because, like, once you're good, like, you're good, you're all right, your needs are satisfied, and. And then it really. I think that's an important part, too. Like, once. Once you're satisfied now, it's not about, like. Like you were before. It's not about your chase. Right. Your ladder, your career progression.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's about them.

[Aaron]

Exactly. It's about. Yeah. Progressing. Progressing. Those around you.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's. It's just like. It sucks when somebody doesn't get it. It sucks. It's like. It's like it's right in front of you. And maybe that's. Maybe. Maybe that's. That's me as a leader. Like, maybe I just. Maybe I should get everybody to get it. But. Yeah, maybe that's naive.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I don't think it's naive. I think it's. I think it's great. That's the goal. You want everybody to get it. Not everyone's going to get it at the same pace and. But I think the industry as a whole is starting to get it. I think maybe it's a. I think we're awake.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I think the ones that are going to get there a little bit quicker are the ones that they're not waiting for a better time to do it. They're. They're doing it now. And it's a lot less talk and more action. It is getting out there and just chopping it off 90 days at a time.

[Aaron]

But they also have the right. I think it all goes back to leadership structure as well. They also have the right leadership structure. Like, I think Hoopa has been able to do it because it has been Brian. It's not. Brian's also Brian's dad in the office kind of looking over everybody's shoulder as well.

[Brandon Lindsey]

True.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You can't have that. I think for it to really like.

[Brandon Lindsey]

You mean having not been aligned within.

[Aaron]

Yes. There's. There's. There's just this generational alignment. This. This friction that I've seen many more times than it. That makes tough. Yeah. When it's great, it's great, but most of the time it's not great. They're. They're either, like, they have leadership that's unencumbered, I would say, and there's probably a bunch of different ways you can be suppressed in that regard, or they're this new generation that's like. They have been living in a great market and they have only been around for nine years, but now they've got 120 people and they're just. It's just the throttle's wide open. Yeah. Like, I've got. I've got no limitations here and.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No scars and.

[Aaron]

No scars. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No. No history on that. No. You know, I think about Ryan down at Petticoat Schmidt. You know, he. He's got the scars.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And those scars are huge. Part of what's created the vision and the momentum that they're experiencing right now. And so you've kind of have both sides of that.

[Aaron]

Well, and going back to Herb, he's like. He lived through the recession.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which sucked. You. You know, you can. I mean, by age, you can tell, but you can tell who's. Who really managed a business through the recession.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

And who didn't. Because they. They talk about it like it was the darkest hour in their life, which it probably was in a lot of ways. And. But that can work for you or against you. Like, you can't. You can't manage your business totally out of fear. Right. Either. Because then you. You do have to still take risk. There's still.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. Learn from it, but don't be paralyzed by it.

[Aaron]

Exactly. Yeah. There's that push and pull. So I think it is valuable if you use it in a productive way, but I think it can also hurt you. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And I'm excited about it. I really am. I'm. And I want you to be encouraged by it, too, because y' all are playing a huge role in that. But, you know, when we talk to people and when we have people on the podcast and things you see, you see new energy, you see new excitement. You're hearing different conversations. It is a different industry today than it was five years ago. I completely agree, and I'm excited about where it's going. I really, you know, we're not there. We're nowhere close to where we need to be, but we're having the conversations. Kind of like what you said about Con Expo, it was a different tone, a different feeling there, and that's something.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Well.

[Aaron]

And that's where it starts.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I think that's a big piece of it. Like, and that's. That's why I am so optimistic, because it's like, we don't have to figure out how to build better. Like, we already know how to build stuff.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's right.

[Aaron]

We're fine at building stuff. We're pretty good at building stuff. It's. That's not the problem. And the problem isn't equipment. The problem isn't technology. Right. Like, it's. It's. It's like these core materials. Like, we've kind of. We kind of have that stuff figured out.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

Sure. We can improve, but it's. It's all human capital.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If somebody wants to get involved in Dream On Three, how do they do that?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, just send us an email. Go to our website. Is Dream on three the number three dot org? Watch it. Watch a video or two. Get connected. I mean, I could sit here and talk about it all day, or you can watch one of the dream videos.

[Aaron]

You just watch one video.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Watch one video and it's. You've got it. You understand what we're doing and you can see it. But, yes, shoot us an email. We've got. This only happens because of the generosity of people and largely people in this

[Aaron]

industry, which is awesome.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I love it. You know, I Used to think that was going to be. That was going to be possibly an anchor for or a threat to our growth, you know, that we had to diversify. We had to get outside of construction to be able to turn into what? Man, that is so far from the truth. I don't care if we have anything but construction. I love that this organization was built on the backs of construction.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's just such good people doing what we do, such giving hearts, people that care about their community. I just love. That's part of our story. People ask all the time. They're like, why is it so heavy construction? I said, those were my people, is what it is. That's who I knew when we went out in the beginning. I said, those were the only people that would buy into this thing. So. But I love that that's of the part of our story, and it's so good.

[Aaron]

What'd you have on your iPad there?

[Brandon Lindsey]

I just. No, I had some. No, you hit all the stuff. No, I just wanted to make sure,

[Aaron]

you know, you're the planner. You plan for this? I didn't plan.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I was nervous coming into this thing. A little bit. I was. A little bit. Yeah. I think having just a. I'm used to. I think I told you this. Having with the podcast, I like being able to go wherever the conversation goes, but yet I've still got a. I've got a map in my mind, and sometimes you have to drive the conversation there. But this has been so much fun. I mean, it's just been. It's been talk, and you make this easy. And so, yeah, that was. That was my. That was my blankie right there that I could go to if I need to, but I didn't have to turn it on.

[Aaron]

Well, that's my goal. Whenever somebody brings notes in, I'm like, all right. My objective is to just forget about those notes. I did, and they always do. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. I didn't even look at it.

[Aaron]

You're. Your podcast is. Give us the dirt.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Give us the dirt.

[Aaron]

How do you prepare for those? How do you choose who goes on that? Because that's.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's a little bit different.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's different, but it's like. It's a. It's a sizable ordeal now.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's been fun, and it's only sizable because we've got an incredible marketing team, and they do a great job of. They get me prepped. They. They do a lot of researching the guest. They give me information. I will take the information they give me, and I'll make it mine. And, you know, there's no script. We're not sharing notes before the podcast. But I know enough because of what the research they've done to where I know what I want to get out of it. I know what story I want to pull out of it. And that's the best part of it, is the storytelling.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

When we got into it, we thought we were going to be talking about topics. What's the topic here? The stories. That's what people want to hear.

[Aaron]

How do you choose who you have

[Brandon Lindsey]

on a lot of time? So we're not actively going out and trying to say, hey, will you be a guest right now? A lot of times it's people that are reaching out to us, wanting to see what's going on at the academy, and they'll say, hey, we're in this. We're in this journey right now. We're on the beginning stages of trying to create a similar culture or training program. You know, would y' all be able to help us? And then as we start to talk and then we say, come in and share your story. Come talk about what you're doing. And we give tours at the academy probably twice a week for different companies that want to come in. I mean, I think I shared that with you. We're open book. I don't know if that's good or bad. Sometimes Brian's like, man, do we need to be sharing all that?

[Aaron]

Well, it's worked out so far. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

We want the whole industry to get better, and he's been great about that. So, I mean, we've been an open book, and we invite people in, but sometimes that'll lead to let's. Let's jump in the studio, come tell your story.

[Aaron]

I see. Okay. That makes sense.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And those are fun. How do you. How do you do it?

[Aaron]

I don't know whoever I want to talk to.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, you have that luxury now. You kind of.

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But no, that's how I started in the early days, too. Was like, who do I know? Oh, yeah, I'm working with Dylan Stevens. All right, I'll have Dylan on. I'm working with James Milburn. I have James on Keaton Turner.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Keaton.

[Aaron]

Craig Cahoon. Hey, Craig, do you want to be on the podcast? I've never been on podcasts. What's involved? Well, Craig, I see Atlas.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No. Who was that with Atlas that you had on?

[Aaron]

Casey.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Casey, yeah. That was a great episode.

[Aaron]

Now Craig's with Carter Machinery up in the cat dealer just north of you guys.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Do they all come here now?

[Aaron]

They do, yeah. But when I started it was. I have a. I still have it. It was like a little road podcaster maybe. Maybe you guys. A lot of. Yeah, yeah, it was great. And I would Bluetooth my phone to it and I would. I had a microphone with a terrible little stand in my apartment and I, I just, I'd sit there and I'd talk to them on the phone and so there's no video or anything like that. And that's how I did a lot of the first episodes.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then we moved out here and I started doing more here and still a lot remote. And then it just got a few years in the remote. It's just a chore. It just kind of sucks. And I don't enjoy it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I can't stand it.

[Aaron]

No.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But I don't have the luxury of being able to get everyone to come to the studio right now. And so we've had to do some of it. But I don't like it. It's just not the same. No.

[Aaron]

Like a conversation. Like there's. I'm glad I got into photography because I appreciate art and, and writing and like conversations. The same thing. There's a. There's something about it that's in the room that's not necessarily. You can't like put your finger on it. And I feel like that's completely missing when it's on a computer.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I agree.

[Aaron]

Like, there's just. For me, for, for me personally, I can't like it's this dance and I can't find the rhythm when I'm. When I'm looking at somebody on a computer.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. It's hard to be present.

[Aaron]

It's really hard to be present. And I think part of it is like there is a really small delay and so it works for a meeting, but for a multi hour casual conversation, there's like something inhuman about it that I just, I can't put my.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Do you listen to podcasts when you travel?

[Aaron]

Oh, I listen to podcasts all the time when I work out.

[Brandon Lindsey]

What are your go tos?

[Aaron]

Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson and Andy Frisella. Which is why I started the build with thing. I've listened to him since 2015. The Ovon, like the usual cast of characters. Yeah, yeah. Nothing. Sean Ryan is, is great.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh yeah, those. All those are on my grass cutting playlist right there.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And, and love long form. But yeah, when I'm driving, when I'm traveling. But when I'm. When I'm working out and, and I do. It's. I work out for hours. And so it's when you're cycling or running, that's all I listen to, is podcasts.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Hours over the course of a week.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Or yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Hours a day.

[Aaron]

It could be hours a day on the weekend. You're a machine. Well, but like cycling. Yeah. You kind, it's just kind of time, like it's not that hard. It's just like you just kind of have to sit there for a few hours.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But I love that health and wellness has become part of your narrative.

[Aaron]

It has to be.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah, I think that, I think that's got to become part of the conversation here.

[Aaron]

It has to be. And it's not new. It's. I read a book on Peter Kiewit. It's really old somewhere around here. You can't buy it. I found it at some used bookstore. And, and he would, he would shame his superintendents that were overweight publicly. And like, while that's not probably the best way to go about it, his, his thing would be like, how can you lead working people when you can't physically work yourself? When you look like that, how can you be the leader that your people need? And it's like that is. You can't argue with the logic. And it's worked out just fine for them. Like they did become one of the world's most effective contractors through that logic. And I think we need to get back to that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. People just don't associate that with success of the business or performance.

[Aaron]

But that's, that's crazy.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I agree, I agree. It's probably one of the most critical pieces of it.

[Aaron]

Sports. Okay. We've got a sports team. The ability of that, the success of that sports team is predicated on the physicality of their players. That's probably the foundation. I would say there's strategy, tactics, training, of course, but it's the physical well being of their players. And sports teams have only spent more and more and more and more on the physical health and well being of their players. And the, the most effective players, the Tom Brady's, the Michael Jordans, like you can go down the list, they've all been the ones that have taken the most care of their bodies as well. They've been like fanatical about their bodies.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because that's the tool construction. It's the same thing. The whole thing is built upon people. And yet you have the safety conversation that I've heard 10,000 times about how our people are number one safety's first and where you're now your chinstrap hard hat. And make sure you've got your right. Those gloves are wrong. You need these gloves. And stay off your phone. Wear your seatbelt. Oh, that's good. Great. Yeah, I'm a big, like, of course, wear your seatbelt in the machine. But we're, I've, I think it's, it's really bothered me, the safety conversation. And I've reflected upon it for years. Like, why does this, does this just bother me what's here? And it's, it's the complete disregard for the physical body itself and the, and the lack of acknowledgement that some guy that's 100 pounds overweight is more prone to getting injured, getting in and off, on and off a piece of equipment, which is probably the number one injury for a civil construction company than me as a triathlete. And then that safety guy is telling me how to take care of myself. I'm good, man. I'm good. Like, I'm, I can manage that. It's, it's just, it's, it's, it's almost like we've treated everybody like a child. Hey, you're a child. I'm gonna treat you like a child. Just follow the damn rules. And then I'm gonna ignore the, the elephant in the room that is people's health and well being and even mental mentally. Like some guy, his spouse asked for a divorce three days ago. He's swinging pipe around a pipe crew. Do you think, do you think he's safe? Would I want to be the guy on the ground with that guy in the machine If I knew that, I'd want to have a conversation about it. Yeah, but that, and I get all this stuff is hard, but it is,

[Brandon Lindsey]

but it, it's important. It is important. And I do think, I do think people care. I just, you know, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's never been something they had to think about before as a business owner and, and you know, going back to your being asked to solve yesterday's problems and tomorrow's problems and. But I do see a shift that people seem to be moving more from that compliance mindset to a caring mindset. We're just trying to figure out how to do that and do it well. But it's important. And I think everyone's starting to realize how important. I'm fascinated by this shift from, you know, lifespan to health. Spanish. Yeah, and just really like we just, you know, this aesop. This is for you to Enjoy retirement. It's no good if you get there and you, and you don't have a body or you don't have the health to be able to enjoy that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. I1 I would argue, I think it's only gotten more compliance.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Think so?

[Aaron]

Yeah. With the hoopa it's gone the other way. But you want to talk big GCs, you think they're more caring or compliance focused.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Like I want to hope so, but you would see it more than I do.

[Aaron]

Any big company, it's, we've got more lawyers, we've got bigger insurance premiums. We're just going to treat people like, like kindergartners but we're going to say we trust them. But anyway. Yeah, but I watched my dad work his whole life. Work, work, work, work, work, work for retirement. He retired and then he's done nothing and it's just been, it's just been like such a bummer.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I'm like, man, like what happened that those are your best year, those should be your best years and you have more to give than ever. Like what, what happened? What what happened? And, and, and, and, and yeah, and that, that to me it just kind of bums me out. Like you shouldn't be going into retirement on fumes, man. Like and just so burnt out that you just sit on the reclining chair in your living room for the rest of your life at a retirement home.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Like that's, no, it's tough. And you know, part of the people that are in the industry is it's hard to get people, you know, to care about themselves. I mean we have done everything including like paying you to go to the doctor and it's still hard to get some of our teammates to go to the doctor. Yeah, it's just changing that mindset has, has been a challenge. It's not because of a lack of effort. We've got every program, every benefit, extremely rich benefit program, health insurance program, we've got an on site nurse, I mean every program. And then, I mean we literally were offering gift cards if you would go get your physical. And it was still a challenge to get people to go.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I, I, it's tough. It is, it is tough. I think one thing that has, I feel like is really low hanging fruit for a construction company. And I, I don't there would be some logistics to work out. I haven't ever actually seen it done. I don't understand why contractors don't offer their people breakfast and lunch. Just provide the food, just provide the food.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Otherwise they're going to the hot dog stand.

[Aaron]

Well, but, but, but the hours worked too. Facilitates that. When you're doing 10 hour days.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's interesting.

[Aaron]

You don't. And you're driving, you know, to and from a job site across from town. I don't even think it's their fault that they're eating like garbage because they don't. There's not really time. And there is, it's still an excuse but like I'm thinking systematically and it's like if I want my people to be healthier and the quality of my business is built upon the health of my people, why wouldn't I just offer like. And now you can do it because the meals, these prepackaged meals now and these services are so healthy and so good that you can offer people.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Aaron, that's really good. Have you shared that before?

[Aaron]

I mean, kind of, but, but I, and actually really interesting. The cost of it would be, would be negligible in the grand scheme of things and the goodwill you would get. And not. You don't have to participate. But hey, sign up for, you know, the meal plan. Yeah, sign up for the meal plan. Like you're at school and then you don't have to think about breakfast and lunch.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's interesting.

[Aaron]

I don't know. Like, it's like, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'm not a contractor, so I don't know. But that's one thing that's like, why wouldn't somebody do this?

[Brandon Lindsey]

You're right. Because it is an environment where it's really easy to eat poorly.

[Aaron]

It's so easy. Oh, so it's, I mean I've been there. It's really hard. Really hard. Like when I was like the most intense environment was probably the railroad and that was seven days a week. And I had to, I didn't have a family back home. So when I went back home for two days off, I would have to really plan my meals and bring all my food out with me. But if I go back and like I've got a, I've got a wife and kids and, and sports and, and life and this and that, like that just gets. Eating well gets railroaded.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

No pun intended. And then I'm there. I am going to work at 3am what's open at 3am and I don't have food prepared. The gas station. Waffle House. Waffle House. If I have time. If not, it's a McDonald's drive through.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right.

[Aaron]

You know, it's, it's just it's hard. And so I think like that systematically. It's, it's hard to eat well and be healthy in construction. Especially if you're, if you're a pipe player and you do 10 hours and then you get home. It's not like you're going to go to the gym, you know, or it's not like you're going to go lift before going to work. Like I don't blame those guys at all. Like that's hard. That's, that's, that's hard. And it's physical work. Like you still need to train your body but they're not. Because the work is hard. Exhausting. Especially 100 degrees all day. You're not doing anything after that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. It's important. I mean we've got to be thinking about it. It's got to be one of the things that we're working on.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And talking about. But that's very, that's interesting. Brian's listening right now thinking Brandon, hey, but you know what? He'd be the first one to sign up for it.

[Aaron]

Just try it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

He would, he tried at one site. You know what, let's, let's give it a shot.

[Aaron]

Just try it at one site and like worst case scenario, it doesn't work. And you preface it with like hey guys, we don't actually know if this is gonna work but we're gonna try it. We want to get you some good food. I'd be signing up for that.

[Brandon Lindsey]

It's pretty cool.

[Aaron]

No question. And that, that to me is like, I think civil construction can actually learn a lot from mining because mining does that really well. Like and not American mining. American mining does it horribly wrong in a lot of ways. Most, most mines but like Australia mining, Canadian mining, Chilean mining, they feed their workforce.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Wow.

[Aaron]

They feed their workforce. It can go horribly wrong because you can just go over to the ice cream cone machine and just, just rip, you know, as much ice cream as you want. But it's actually awesome because they feed you.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And, and then it's, and then you're not paying for it as well. So it's also, it helps with cost of living a little bit.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right. But they're, they're there on site all day. But you make a good point. I mean there's access. All these prepackaged and pre made meals that you can do now. You can get them to the job sites. That's interesting. You might, you might just give us a new initiative. But I can pilot this thing.

[Aaron]

I do speak about physical health when I talk to people though, because, and I think it starts with leadership. I think, hey, we need to be, we need to be healthier as an industry, mentally and physically. But it starts with us as leaders being mentally and physically healthier. Yeah, like, like for, for you, you can, you can get up in front of Hoopah and say, guys, we need to, you know, it's okay to not be okay. It's, we need to talk about it this and that. Like the typical mental health messaging which isn't not very actionable or you can tell a story about your daughter and you know, hey, I, I, man, it was, yeah, it was a dark time and, and I, and I was on, I was unsure and I was scared or whatever it was. And you can be a little vulnerable, but, and you can say when I was struggling, here's what helped me, you know, connecting with faith or taking care of myself physically or you know, spending more time with my wife or whatever it is

[Brandon Lindsey]

that starts to break down barriers. When they see that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you're right. Now that, that, that, that breaks barriers, that actually makes a difference.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I think when you do a good job of that too. I even, I mean, even talking about the journey you've been on with your faith, things like that, like having those conversations, those are not subjects that people feel comfortable talking about. Mostly. Especially our, our industry.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But I love that those conversations are taking place now and we're not, you know, the mental health conversations, the health and wellness conversations, the spiritual well being conversations, that's part of it. That's part of the equation. Let's talk about that too. And y' all have done a good job. You've done a good job of doing that too. And I think you're right. Once people see others doing it, everyone's, everyone's dealing with it, everyone's struggling with it. They've all got their own stories. But it takes one person to be a little bit vulnerable and then all of a sudden you'll see some grown man crying.

[Aaron]

Well, and they're the first ones that win. Like when you get healthier, you're like, you're not like, man, this sucks. You're better.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You have more energy, you're better for your family, you're better for people that work with you.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Do you see any companies that, that are doing that? Well,

[Aaron]

I'd have to really think about it.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But no, it'd be interesting to see some part figured out. Yeah. I don't think I've been on a single job site in years where somebody's talked about physical health and wellness. I mean, I've seen stretch and flex, but stretch and flex is a joke. It's like, I wouldn't be a joke if you were actually doing other things. But it's like, to me, it's like, you know, it's a leaky ship. It's like the Titanic. And it's like, let's put some flex tape on the side of it. It's like, I mean, it's better than nothing, I guess.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But, but no, I get it, I get it. Yeah. It's. If you're just going through the motions and it's just something to check off before you start your day.

[Aaron]

And I, I think it's like, it starts with the right intentions, but yeah, I think it's kind of like a. We want to signal to everybody that health and wellness is, is important visually. So everybody knows, everybody can see we do stretch and flex. But like, again, I'm a triathlete. I'm not sitting there. Stretch and flex. Like, you know what? I'm getting better. Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Right. It's the bare minimum.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, but I think, I think that's like the next, I think this is like the next level of what you guys are doing. Like, how can we really

[Brandon Lindsey]

get our

[Aaron]

people healthier physically and mentally? Like, I think that's kind of. It's, it's like the more advanced level.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Sure. Yeah. Like, you don't want to start there. That's not.

[Aaron]

No, it's a hard place to start. It's, it's. I think it's a harder, harder, which is why I haven't seen it done super well yet.

[Brandon Lindsey]

But I think we're still trying to figure that out. Like I said, we've got, we've got an on site nurse. That's how important it's, it is. And we know that a healthier workforce, a healthier team is a better hoopa. Yeah, it's. But it's, it's a lot of rewiring. It's, it's just, man, it's, it's not something that we've historically thought about. Well, as an industry. Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I've been made fun of a hundred times over for eating healthy food on a job site. It's not welcomed.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No, no, yeah, that's an easy point to grab onto, but they also probably understand the value of it more today than they did before.

[Aaron]

Yes, well, to your point, like, I think now the soil is more fertile for even this conversation and this living. But yeah, I, I'VE the only time I've seen, like, the health and wellness thing really stressed is. Is in the minds because every mine has a gym and everybody's in there and it's like, actually interesting to see who's in there. And you have people, like, really prioritizing. We talked about. Dream on three. We talked about. Give us the. The Dirt podcast. Yeah. You can find it on any podcast platform. And you've interviewed a ton of people. Yeah. And that's once a week. How much. How much do you publish?

[Brandon Lindsey]

You know what? It hasn't been that much. We're going to do more of it this year. I'm. I'm committed to. It's just. I need to commit to it. But, yeah, I mean, we're doing at least two a month right now, but we want to get it up.

[Aaron]

That's quite a few. Yeah. And it's not just. It's not like the hoopa show.

[Brandon Lindsey]

No. Matter of fact, the goal is not to talk about hoopa.

[Aaron]

You don't. You almost don't talk about hoopa at all.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Yeah. But what happens is really cool.

[Aaron]

You know, we.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's the goal. We don't want it to be a hoopa thing at all. But then we'll have guests and they end up talking about it too. So it, you know, it. It helps us. But the goal is to really change the narrative, Tell the stories, get people engaged, show them a sexier side of the business, show them that you can be successful, that this is not a dirty job. And we're seeing it work. It always surprises me, Aaron, to walk in somewhere, oh, my gosh. I listen to your podcast and my first thought is, why? Why are you doing that? But I do realize now that there are listeners, people enjoy hearing these stories, just like with yours. I mean, there's something intriguing about this industry and the people that have done it and where it's going. And that's why I believe, I truly believe that we're seeing the needle move. And I hope you're encouraged by that, too. I know it's hard sometimes because you're on the front lines and you're fighting this fight every day, but I do want you to be encouraged that from our perspective, it's changing.

[Aaron]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And we're not there. We're not even close to being there. But. But it's moving.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

And. And I'm encouraged by that. And I think you guys should be, too.

[Aaron]

Well, and you guys are. Yeah. A big part of, I think, as well, making.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Well We've all got a part in this. We've all got to play a role and do our part in it. But I do appreciate you championing the effort and really just driving this message home, pulling this community together. Yeah, that's something that nobody had done.

[Aaron]

Again, we were just like. We were kind of looking around. We're like, oh, wait a minute. I guess we're the ones to do us. Do this. Like, I. Okay, all right. If it's us, it's us. That's fine. That's the podcast and then Hoopa. Where's Hoopa going? So they're your employee owned now? Yeah.

[Brandon Lindsey]

That's exciting.

[Aaron]

And everybody within the company can participate?

[Brandon Lindsey]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've been there 90 days, you're an owner. So, yeah, the ESOP is a big deal for us. But with an esop, you. It only works if you grow. And so growth is definitely part of the conversation now. It's always been part of the conversation. It's never been the goal. It's not the goal now. But we believe that we're set up to really see this thing take off now. So we're excited about it. It's really bringing in that next generation of leaders, getting them ready, identifying where they want to go, how we support them in that. But it's an exciting time right now. The ESOP was. Was a fun announcement and really well received, and it's.

[Aaron]

It felt just kind of like what you were saying, like the next evolution. Like, it felt natural. It's like, oh, yeah, of course.

[Brandon Lindsey]

We didn't have to change anything when we became an esop. It was just, again, I. To me, it was just the transaction at the end. The work had been done, and this was just the last piece of that. So I'm excited. You know, those take herbs. Told you. It takes a while to really see those things start to take off. And it's a few years before you start getting those statements. And you see. Okay, I see it now, but it's. Our people are excited and they're starting to. You can already see it working. The power of the ESOP is when you get people to think like owners, and we're already seeing that work for us.

[Aaron]

Incredible. Awesome. Well, I really, really, really appreciate you coming.

[Brandon Lindsey]

I appreciate you having me. This is fun.

[Aaron]

It is. Yeah. It's a blast. So thanks for everything you guys are doing for the industry as well. Thanks for what you're doing with Dream on 3, and I'm sure we'll see you soon.

[Brandon Lindsey]

Thank you, Aaron.