"It's Not the Pay, It Never Was" - Ken Rusk (DT446)

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – Episode Summary

Episode Title: “It’s Not the Pay, It Never Was” with Ken Rusk (DT446)
Release Date: May 28, 2026
Host: Aaron Witt
Guest: Ken Rusk (Author, Blue Collar Cash; Founder, Rusk Industries)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Aaron Witt in conversation with Ken Rusk, a blue collar entrepreneur, author, and longtime advocate for the skilled trades. The discussion examines why pay is not the primary driver for employee fulfillment in construction and the trades, and explores Ken’s practical system for helping blue collar workers define and achieve life goals. Together, they challenge conventional wisdom about careers and culture, providing deep insights for both workforce leaders and individual contributors.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Media and Podcasting Experiences (01:25–06:44)

• Ken’s Media Journey: Ken shares stories from 325+ podcast appearances and his initial break on Tucker Carlson’s show, leading to more media involvement.
• Podcasts vs. Mainstream Media: Contrasts the depth of podcast dialogue versus rapid-fire broadcast interviews.
• Quote:

  “Most people…start out talking really slow, I’m like, oh, they don’t know that they only have another 30 seconds and they’re getting cut off.”
  – Ken Rusk (03:55)

2. The New Industrial Landscape: Mega Projects, Supply Chains, and Infrastructure Policy (06:47–14:53)

• Explores the complexity and scale of semiconductor plants and how domestic manufacturing is being reshaped.
• The critical importance of supply chain self-sufficiency, referencing global chokepoints and changing geopolitical realities.
• Real-world construction challenges inside mega-projects (vibration-free foundations, dustless environments).
• Quote:

  “Without chips, we’re cooked. Like, phones, computers, AI, everything doesn’t work.”
  – Aaron Witt (08:52)

• Reference to books like Prisoners of Geography and Guns, Germs and Steel to explain how geography shapes economies.

3. The Trades, College, and the Broken “Four-Year Degree” Promise (16:08–21:19)

• Ken cites statistics: out of 165 million working Americans, 77 million do hands-on work—yet four-year college is still falsely sold as the default.
• The market has overproduced grads with generic degrees, undermining their earning power and leaving a shortage in the trades.
• Parental pride and changing generational attitudes toward education.
• The pandemic’s role in highlighting the value of skilled labor and “essential” work.
• Quote:

  “We kind of got hoodwinked into thinking that the only way we could be proud parents…was to finish them off by giving them a degree.”
  – Ken Rusk (18:49)

4. AI, Trades, and the Evolving Job Market (21:20–25:57)

• AI is a disruptive force, but its immediate impact on hands-on trades is minimal; it’s more of an administrative tool.
• AI-induced job losses in tech sectors are driving some to the trades; Ken offers guidance to a laid-off cybersecurity worker considering becoming an electrician.
• Cultural shift: leaders like Larry Fink (BlackRock) now emphasizing the trades.
• Quote:

  “AI has helped…in the way that we present ideas…It hasn’t replaced anything yet…like a shovel or a worker.”
  – Ken Rusk (23:43)

5. Cultural Change—From Pay to Purpose (29:05–44:42)

• Modern workers, especially Gen Z and millennials, prioritize purpose and autonomy over pay and benefits alone.
• Ken describes shifting his message from simply destigmatizing blue collar work to helping leaders build cultures that truly attract and retain good people.
• The importance of aligning company goals with personal goals—employees are “free agents” who’ll leave when the alignment breaks.
• Practical application: Ken’s “goal wall”—every employee publicly states a tangible, timed pathway (not just a vague goal) and the team celebrates progress.
• Quote:

  “As a boss, owner or manager, you can get pretty chapped by that [selfishness] if you don’t understand what they’re really saying.”
  – Ken Rusk (28:33)

• Memorable Moment: The “goal wall” with neon markers—transforming dreams (“someday goals”) into concrete, time-driven pathways.

6. Building Confidence, Changing Lives (55:43–62:33)

• Coaching people to define what they want (“timed pathways”) builds true confidence and creates “goal-crushing machines.”
• Ken details how small, achievable steps—like saving to pay off a debt—snowball into bigger life changes.
• Drawing as a tool: Ken asks individuals to visualize and draw what confidence looks like for them.
• Quote:

  “If you teach them to do it once, as soon as they get their first time pathway, get out of their way, baby.”
  – Ken Rusk (41:24)

• Aaron shares a personal story about earning money to convert his aquarium to saltwater—illustrating the power of connecting effort to reward.

7. The Business Case: How Leadership and Culture Win Talent (92:09–97:44)

• “Rockstars and Rainmakers”: Ken’s framework for leaders—ten “plug-and-play” strategies any company can implement to improve culture, e.g., simply playing better music or energizing the physical workspace.
• Bonus plans should be tied to actual increments in company performance—the team shares in the upside of new revenue or profitability beyond a set target.
• Quote:

  “You’re giving away money you don’t have yet. So how is that costing you anything?”
  – Ken Rusk (95:22)

• The “Chief Cool Officer” role in every office ensures cultural consistency and employee engagement, even as the company grows.

8. Leadership’s Ultimate Responsibility (104:47–109:01)

• Leadership, not labor, is the real root of workforce “shortages.”
• Companies blaming the next generation are often deflecting from their own culture, hiring practices, and lack of innovation.
• Ken points to organizations like Chick-fil-A as examples: if turnover fast-food restaurants can attract young workers for outdoor winter jobs, construction leaders have no excuse.
• Quotes:

  “If you don’t ask those questions, you’re going to be the guy who says, I can’t find anybody who wants to work.”
  – Ken Rusk (110:02) “They’re accusing the next generation of being entitled while they’re being entitled.”
  – Aaron Witt (112:03)

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Highlighted Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ken’s Philosophy:

  “I can’t get what I want for myself, nor can my company get what it wants or needs, until all of you get what you want first.”
  (35:45)

• On Leadership:

  “If you don’t have party central going on at your place…something where people walk in and go, wow, this is an electric atmosphere—I want to work here.”
  (114:30)

• On Employee Transitions:

  “If it’s beyond what I can give them, I have to be mature enough to say, I want what you want. That may not be here.”
  (64:51)

• On Attracting Talent:

  “Culture for dummies. If I could have called it culture for dummies, I would have.”
  (100:35)

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Notable Timestamps

• Media & Podcasting Experiences: 01:25–06:44
• Semiconductor Construction & Supply Chain Resilience: 06:47–14:53
• Trades vs. College Degree Model: 16:08–21:19
• AI & The Future of Work: 21:20–25:57
• Culture, Motivation, and Meaning at Work: 29:05–44:42
• Building Confidence, Visualizing Goals: 55:43–62:33
• Business Leadership & Practical Culture Tips: 92:09–97:44
• Workforce Leadership as Root Cause: 104:47–109:01

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Actionable Takeaways

• For Leaders:

  • Your culture—not your pay scale—is your company’s real product.
  • Implement simple culture hacks: music, color, public recognition of goals, celebration of progress.
  • Create tangible pathways for career growth and personal development.
  • Be honest about your company’s environment from the applicant’s perspective—would you want to work there?
  • Be prepared to help employees grow beyond your organization—support, don’t stifle, ambition.

• For Employees (and those considering the trades):

  • Don’t let stigma define your choices—the trades offer autonomy, meaningful earning potential, and personal freedom.
  • Define your own vision of a good life; ignore others’ expectations.
  • Turn “somedays” into real plans—timed, specific, achievable steps.
  • Confidence is built by keeping promises to yourself, not by waiting for permission.

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Final Messages

• For Blue Collar Talent:

  “Screw the stigma…You get to build the life that you want. Working for yourself, or working even within a company but kind of for yourself—no other better way to do it.”
  – Ken Rusk (112:45)

• For Leaders:

  “You really gotta sharpen your game… If you don’t have something where people walk in and go, ‘wow, this is an electric atmosphere, I want to work here,’ you’re not going to keep up.”
  – Ken Rusk (114:30)

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Ken’s latest book, Rockstars and Rainmakers, will further detail his leadership system for creating winning workplace cultures. For more, follow him on LinkedIn or learn about his speaking engagements.

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This episode is a must-listen for leaders seeking to solve workforce challenges—not by blaming “kids these days” but by facing the mirror and building the environments and pathways modern workers not only want, but deserve.

Transcript

[Aaron]

This episode of the Dirt Talk podcast is with Ken Rusk, who is the author of Blue Collar Cash, founder of Rusk Industries, a drainage and excavation company in Toledo, Ohio. And he's a Fox News contributor who's also appeared on 325 podcasts in the past two years, which is nuts. He spent 40 years figuring out why some employees thrive and others just survive, and the answer had nothing to do with pay or benefits. In this episode, he reveals why employers who can't find good workers are actually the problem and the surprisingly simple system he's used for decades to turn blue collar workers into goal crushing machines. This is the second time I've sat down with Ken. This time, though, man, it was. It was even better than the first. I. I found myself without words a few times throughout this recording because I just had so much to think about as he was saying things. I was like, man, how could I do this within our business? This is. This is fantastic stuff. So it's a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy it. As much as I enjoyed talking with Ken. Here's the episode.

[Ken Rusk]

One, and you got to say, hey, honey, how are you?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure. I physically, when I hit the door, say hi to your daughter. And then say hi to.

[Aaron]

Sure. That's really good.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

It's really something.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing. You're doing a lot of interviews. Are you doing podcasts? I mean, you're, You're.

[Ken Rusk]

I've been. This is number 327, I think, in the past two years. So I've done. I've done a bunch of them. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Really? Yeah. That is crazy.

[Ken Rusk]

But it's been great because, you know, every time you think they're all going to be the same. I mean, a lot of them have their typical questions they ask, you know, but they all have their own personalities and they're all, you know, they're all different. So it's been fun.

[Aaron]

Some are better than others.

[Ken Rusk]

I've got some nightmare stories for you, Aaron. Oh, my God. Oh, I had one where I. I figured out like 10 minutes in that I was on the wrong show. It was like. Oh, it was like a. Well, let's just say that they weren't straight, these people. None of them were straight. And some of them were like furries, and some of them were like seance people, and some of them were like. And so they're talking around the table and. And they're asking me these questions, and I finally said, are you sure I'm on the right show? And they're like, you're not. But we just went with it because we didn't know what else to do.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, let's go then. So we had another 15 or 20 minutes, and I got off, but it was odd.

[Aaron]

Did you consider the furry thing afterwards?

[Ken Rusk]

No, never did. In fact, it made me go even further away from ever thinking about being a furry.

[Aaron]

Well, I mean, that's. That is an experience.

[Ken Rusk]

It was something else.

[Aaron]

I gotta tell you, the podcast thing is interesting, too, versus the mainstream media stuff. I've done a little bit. I know you've done a lot for fox, for example.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And it is. It's so different. You kind of just. You're kind of just waiting, waiting, waiting, and somebody comes and checks in and then waiting, waiting. And you're watching the show, and somebody comes and checks in, and then it's like, question, response, question, response, question, response. Okay, thank you.

[Ken Rusk]

Done.

[Aaron]

Done. Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Two minutes, 45 seconds in, you're like, I didn't get it. I got, like, four words in.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, and not only that, but you prepare mentally for, like, three straight days of what you're gonna do.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

And. And most people. It's so funny, because now that I was. Now that I've been on that side of it, when I watch somebody get interviewed and they start out talking really slow, I'm like, oh, they don't know that they only have another 30 seconds and they're getting cut off. So. So it's funny to put yourself in their shoes because, you know, they're not used to doing it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

So it's fun.

[Aaron]

How'd you even get into doing all the media and appearances? I mean, you've gone headfirst into it. You could very easily just be hanging out.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. You know, it was. For me, you know, one of the biggest breaks I got was getting on Tucker Carlson's show. Right off the bat, somebody knew him, and they said, you got to talk to this guy. And then I was in Florida, and his studios are in Florida. Everybody thinks he works in New York, but he works in a very small town, Boca Grande in Florida. And so, yeah, I went into a studio. It was upstairs, the second floor of this building. And he and I hung out for an hour and a half and just, you know, just talked.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

And it ended up doing two shows. His show and then his. His. His real show, and then his kind of like, FOX Nation show. And so that was fun. And, you know, that. That kind of got a whole lot of other things going. I. I did a little bit of advertising With. With my first book, Blue Collar Cash, and it. That opened some doors as well.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

You know, people saw that and they're like, hey, why don't you come talk about this particular thing? And now I'm not really a Fox News contributor, but I'm kind of like, they kind of come to me, hey, we need you. We need someone tomorrow morning. Can you do this? Or tomorrow afternoon and do this. So, yeah, it's been great.

[Aaron]

When. When did you really start? What year was that?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, the book is four and a half years old, so right around then when I started. So I. I mean, Aaron, I've probably been on 20, 25 times, I would guess. I mean, nothing. Nothing super regular, but.

[Aaron]

No, but I.

[Ken Rusk]

It's fun.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But hundreds of podcasts and all different shows. It's more than most.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. I think the podcast thing, you know, look at the brand you've built. I mean, you've done an amazing job of doing this. I appreciate it. And for me, you know, when you write a book and that book is somewhat targeted and you don't have a famous following to begin with, you know, you're kind of building a brand. I've watched what you've done and seen the cool things you've done. I tell my friends, you can't believe this guy goes all over the world. He puts these drones up in the air, makes them most beautiful. And by the way, everyone's telling you guys to go film intel in. In Ohio, in Columbus, Ohio. So just so you know, if.

[Aaron]

If they were friendly, I'd be there, but not.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, really?

[Aaron]

I stay away from those jobs.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's too much red tape and nonsense. Oh, okay.

[Ken Rusk]

But. So apparently it's an amazing project, but.

[Aaron]

Well, it's one of the biggest construction projects in America ever.

[Ken Rusk]

Really?

[Aaron]

From a dollar amount. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those. Those. Those chip plants. It's not just a building because within that atmosphere, within how they're making chips, there can't be vibrations. And so the entire foundation. And. And this is millions of square feet.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

So this is Walmart after Walmart, after Walmart, after Walmart with some of the most advanced foundation work in the world. And then the atmosphere itself within there. There can't be a speck of dust.

[Ken Rusk]

No kidding.

[Aaron]

Within that space, it has to be clean. It has to be perfectly clean, because something that small can ruin these. These. These chips that they're making. And. And the chips, it's not a very quick process. Some of them can sit in there for nine months. Most getting built and months. And months. Yes. So. So. And then the energy required for it and all the advanced processes and the equip like there is. So these plants, they're some of the most complicated buildings ever built on planet Earth. Wow. And that's why they've had some trouble, because they're so complicated. And so for America to go from zero to global chip manufacturer.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Turns out it's pretty hard.

[Ken Rusk]

Right, Right. Especially when you're trying to follow. I mean, most of our chips were obviously imported for such a very long time, so.

[Aaron]

And still are.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. It's got to be difficult to follow that. And like you said, it's. It's their. It's their freshman album, if you will. You know, it's got to be tough to do that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but. But yeah, to go from. I mean, there's, there's. There Micron is firing up in New York right now. It's $100 billion project.

[Ken Rusk]

Wow.

[Aaron]

And have a hundred billion dollar project, private project.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Five years ago would have been like, that's not possible.

[Ken Rusk]

I mean, think about it. How do you even go to the. How do you even get the banks around this stuff and say, hey, by the way?

[Aaron]

Well, a lot of this. Yeah. At banks. But then Uncle Sam is helping out, I'm sure. Yeah. You've definitely got the feds involved.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, there's no doubt that it is a much needed but probably also slightly vanity project for the government to say, hey, we really need this thing in our backyard.

[Aaron]

You know, I. Yeah. And that's a ball I've kicked around in my head a bunch. It's like, all right, without chips, we're cooked. Like, phones, computers, AI, Everything doesn't work. But, like, what is the risk? I don't know. And should we. Is this something we should be doing? Or, like, man, like, driving to work sucks. Like, what if we just built roads? You know, that's kind of like what I. What I kick around in my head. I'm like, I'm not smart enough to even consider this conversation, but.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, and don't you think that. I mean, when I think of supply chains and I think of us relying upon other parts of the world for such vital things. I lost my mind when I found out that we relied upon other nations for all of our pharmaceuticals or all of our antibiotics. I mean, how do we not do that?

[Aaron]

Well, 2020 exposed a lot of issues.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And even right now, I mean, I've read a lot of books about just the global market. I think it's Just the most incredible thing, how the world works and, and, and cargo ships and pipelines.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And the fact that there's this little straight, this little stretch of water over in the Persian Gulf that somebody can threaten to mine, that shuts down a huge percentage of global oil and gas trade. That to me it's like that's how, that's how fragile this whole thing is.

[Ken Rusk]

And that's, that's the, for me, Aaron, that's the biggest disappointment in all of it because here you and I are pontificating about, well, why would we ever let that happen? And yet they've been letting that happen for years and years and years. Can you imagine China saying, hey, yeah, we're just gonna let this little tiny strip of water control 90% of our oil? Well, it just, it blows my mind.

[Aaron]

But, but China is a great example. They've been, they've been planning for this and they know that that is the choke point. And they know, they're, I mean, that not all their oil and gas comes from there, but they import a lot from that and they know it's fragile. So they like right now they're, they're not hurting nearly as badly as a Thailand or Vietnam or. I was just in India or Australia because they've built huge storage capacity. One, so they're like, well, if a disruption happens, we've got storage capacity here. Tremendous storage capacity.

[Ken Rusk]

Okay.

[Aaron]

So they just have it on hand. And then two, that's why they've gone flat out into EVs.

[Ken Rusk]

Right, let's.

[Aaron]

We have as much coal as possible. We can build as many power plants as possible.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Let's just convert transportation from petroleum to electricity.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it still is run with fossil fuel. We don't care about that. We just want to be off foreign energy flows. Yeah. And, and, and that's why they're now the number one manufacturer in electric vehicles in the entire world. And they can they control that whole supply chain.

[Ken Rusk]

Now do you think are these like straight or are these hybrids? Are these like straight electric or hybrids?

[Aaron]

No, it's straight ev. They, they want off oil.

[Ken Rusk]

And now and again, they don't care about the coal. They don't care. They'll burn all the coal they want.

[Aaron]

It's. Yeah, it's like we, we have it. We've got a thousand years of coal we're sitting on. Yeah. So let's just convert it to electricity and convert the country to electricity.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. All part of the Thousand year plan, probably.

[Aaron]

Right. I mean it's, and that's like dumbing it way down. But. But that's kind of the play and it's incredible. It's just to even. Just to like think about it, like, wow, this is like. It's like a big board game, but with billions of people with trillions of dollars.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

But it's kind of like, you know, Battleship or Risk or like it is. You go to any kids board game, it's like that's kind of what's happening.

[Ken Rusk]

Like.

[Aaron]

Well.

[Ken Rusk]

And if you look at the straight as it sits right now, you see all those little battleships during. I mean, some are battleships, but I mean, I'm using Battleship as a moniker for like an or liner or whatever. You see them just packed up on both sides.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Because you can't go anywhere.

[Ken Rusk]

It's like you wonder. There's got to be better thinking like that. Like, I guess if I was some of the people that lived in that region, wouldn't I be thinking, hey, let's cut that off of the pipeline and just go. Right.

[Aaron]

You know?

[Ken Rusk]

You know what I mean?

[Aaron]

Yeah. I read a book, it was, I think, called Prisoners of Geography. And it was just very simple. It kind of went around the world and like, here's basically why borders are the way they are. And it was so fascinating because it like, it explains the world in such simple terms. And it's mostly just geography. It's like India and China don't really do anything together. You have two of the biggest world. I mean, a majority of the world's population sitting right next to each other.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

And yet there's almost no relationship, if not animosity between them two.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

It's like, why? Well, it's complicated, but there's a giant. There's a. There's a bunch of big mountains in the middle and it's like, oh, yeah. Like, I guess that kind of just cuts everybody off.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

So of course it's that way.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. And it's thousands of miles wide. Right. I mean, it's like forever and long, huge mountain range.

[Aaron]

But, but in. Even with modern technology, it's, it's, it's slowed trade entirely down. Or like, why didn't the people long ago in Central and South America make their way up into North America? It's because there was this huge desert in the way. And it's like, wow, that's just incredible. Or there's a book. Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel?

[Ken Rusk]

I have not. No.

[Aaron]

It's a very famous book. But the whole question that it's attempting to answer is why did the Europeans dominate the world? And it's like, it's kind of because Europe was like the little Goldilocks piece of land that just allowed the Europeans to go faster than others and then they were able to fan out across the world and that's that and doesn't it.

[Ken Rusk]

When you, when you hear about things like that, speaking of small pieces or whatever, aren't you kind of blown away that Japan ever attacked the United States from that little tiny island that they had?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

I mean, think about it. They sent, they send ships and things across that entire ocean, right? Thinking, yeah, okay, this little spot of land, we can take on that whole continent. That's just, I mean, it is, it brings some of that back into light. Like, what were they thinking? You know?

[Aaron]

But I mean, even back to, yeah, Imperial Japan, it's like it's resources.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's, it's, it's infrastructure. It's like we're on this little rocky island that's not all that fertile.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

We need, we need, we need food, we need oil, we need iron ore, we need resources. And it's. Rubber is a big thing in Southeast Asia especially. And it's just, that's why I love what we do is because we. The way I explain it is like I get to peek under the hood of America. Like.

[Ken Rusk]

Right, sure.

[Aaron]

This is how it works, man. Like, it's, it's not on the Internet, right? It's, it's in the dirt, it's, it's asphalt, it's concrete, it's, it's pipelines, like power lines. It's not magic.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And it's the, to me, is the coolest thing.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, you know, and that, what does that do? It is amazing to me when I get on these podcasts and people talk about, you know, the trades and people that, you know, are experiencing shortages and these types of things. And again, I always come back to the same number. If there's 165 million people working in the United States, 77 million of them according to the Bureau of National or Labor Statistics, which I painstakingly look through, 77 million of those people to this moment, still do something with their hands, really. And yet we're trying to shove all the 165 million of our future people through a four year degree, which is just a bad business model, because now you have all these kids that are coming out of these degrees, the, you know, these regular, just normal business degrees, thinking they're gonna command these high dollars. And what they've done is they've overproduced those people, which means their money drops now, because they have choice. Companies can choose between hundreds of these kids. So now the money they expected to come out with, that. That actually drops. And in the meantime, you've also created this black hole of demand for carpenters, plumbers, electricians. I mean, I would just here, just yesterday, I'm putting up a building in Ohio. Just yesterday, my electrician said, man, he said, it's getting tougher and tougher. I really have to hold on to my guys because they're getting poached by all of these data centers. And they're walking up and saying, we'll write you a check. Come work for us. Good for the kid. I mean, he's 26. He's making 200 grand all of a sudden. Right. But bad for the organization, you know, for the. For the, like, the general economy, only because it's a disruption. So these companies are having a tough time hanging on these people. And he said, you know, it's. It's because I'm in the middle of my building. I'm a, hey, don't tell me all your guys are going to get poached because I'm still trying to finish this building. And he's like, no, but it's happening all over the place. They're getting poached two, three, four times. And that balance, Aaron, it just has to. I say it all the time. It just has to swing back to the middle. That pendulum has to come back to the middle where there's a full supply of everything for everybody.

[Aaron]

How has the conversation changed within the past few years from your perspective?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, I actually think that.

[Aaron]

Or has it changed?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, it has, because, you know, small colleges are going out of business. I had one in my own city. It was a mainstay for a long period of time. It's gone. One of the things that they did is they produced a lot of those degrees that no one could really use. And so that happens. But just like any supply and demand thing, if demand drops for colleges, they're gonna go out of business. Well, why is it dropping? Because so many parents are saying, wow, we kind of got hoodwinked into thinking that the only way we could be proud parents is to raise our kids. You know, birth them, clothe them, feed them, protect them, educate them. But yet we had to finish them off by giving them a degree. And if we didn't do that, we weren't good parents.

[Aaron]

Well, I also think you're starting to get into the generation that was like, wait, A minute. That's what I was promised.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And it didn't work that way for me.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so they are part of the product now. Now it's as it's advanced and they're like, they're looking at them like, how can I tell my kid that this is the way to success when it, it hasn't necessarily panned out that way?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, and I think you're seeing that also even with social media use. I mean, I know a lot of young kids are like, why am I wasting my time looking at this damn screen all day long? I think that's even starting to happen. So, you know, it's going to be one of those things where in 20, 30 years we're going to look back and examine this trend and go, wow, look at what happened. We built all these kind of soft kids who thought the world was just going to come right to them and the degree was everything and social media was awesome. And they're going to find out that those things weren't supportive of their futures. And I think now parents are going, well, I, you know, I think my kid can make a great living, have everything he or she wants by doing something like being an electrician or a plumber or a carpenter. Because the pendulum has swung so far the one way that now again, we have this black hole of demand and we need to fill it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's, it's the, the conversation's just been, it's been really weird because you went from COVID which was like record breaking unemployment to then, now everybody's at home. So now we need to go build a bunch of E commerce infrastructure.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

So which led to this huge boom in construction. And then housing was another thing. I'm sitting at home, my kitchen sucks, I'm gonna remodel my kitchen. Or man, Illinois sucks, I'm moving to Indiana or New York sucks, I'm going to Florida.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

And you had these housing shortages. Big housing projects came about. Then you had the chip plants that we just talked about, the automotive plants, all spurned by, well, if everybody's at home, the economy might collapse. Let's just print trillions of dollars and just spend it everywhere.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

You had the PPP program, another trillion with, with no oversight whatsoever.

[Ken Rusk]

None whatsoever.

[Aaron]

Throw it over there. Infrastructure bill, most historic infrastructure bill ever. Another $1.2 trillion on. I don't know what we got for it, but yeah, it went somewhere.

[Ken Rusk]

Show me the project. Yeah, right, Yeah.

[Aaron]

I can't show you the projects, which is a weird thing, but they said they spent it or have almost.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then now we've got this AI thing, which is like a whole other can of worms.

[Ken Rusk]

It is.

[Aaron]

And I think with all those things, it's really interesting. I was just having this conversation at dinner last night that AI is what's making all these really rich people nervous about the trades. Like, I didn't. I hadn't really thought about it until I saw Larry Fink from Blackrock talking about. Yeah, plumbers and electricians. And I'm like, yeah, why does. Why does. Why does Larry Fink care about plumbers and electricians? I don't think he's seen one in the past 30 years. Like, this guy is king of the castle, you know? And I'm like, I think they're starting to realize that they can't do what they need to do without this stuff now and without these people. And all of a sudden they're like, well, we need these people. Let's. Let's start talking about it. And I think, like, to me, it's like the conversations shifted pretty dramatically even in the past, like, year or so, as the AI stuff has really ramped up. It's like, now I'm seeing blue collar on the front of the Wall Street Journal, and it's like, what. What is going on here? This is. This is interesting. And I don't know what to. I think it's great, but I also don't know what to make of it because I'm like. The AI thing also stresses me out a little bit because it's like, are we artificially inflating the market at the same time? And it's great for these kids that are making all this money now and these giant mega projects. But can that go forever? Is the rate we're building even sustainable then? What does that look like? And how does that impact things? Future state.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. AI is a really interesting one. I mean, you just laid out, again, a case study that we'll be studying for years about all the influences that happen over the past five or six years. And AI is an interesting one because for us particularly, you know, again, we're a group of ditch diggers up in Ohio, Right?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

It has helped in the way that we communicate with homeowners. It has helped in the way that we present ideas from a sales standpoint or from a project standpoint. It has streamlined the way we file. You know, it used to be you had a huge customer file in a vanilla manila envelope with all the paper stuffed in it. And so it has streamlined all those Things. It hasn't replaced anything yet. As far as a, like a shovel or a worker or anything like that. I don't think that's going to be for a while.

[Aaron]

So you don't have robot dogs?

[Ken Rusk]

I don't have robot dogs, no. But, but it is interesting that I didn't wake up one day and go, today we're going to start using AI. It's just one of those things that it kind of osmosis, it just kind of happens. And I think that's what a lot of companies are going through. They're kind, they're kind of saying, well, what is this thing and how can I use it? How can I like tiptoe my way into it without committing too much? Because I'm afraid, just like you said, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of like trepidation and using this stuff. But at the same time, you know, I watched a guy, I watched a guy take a laser and put it on the front of his D9 dozer and hook it up to AI and sculpt the entire six acres for our building. So, yeah, you know, there is things like that that are interesting to watch again, you know, AI is going to be in, look at it now. You're seeing layoffs at these high tech companies, but yet what are those people going to do? Are they going to convert over? I met a guy last night, a young man who was like, you know, I worked at this cyber security thing and they kind of got rid of me because they didn't need me as much. I'm actually thinking about becoming an electrician. Bravo. Because we need those guys. And he had read my book and he's like, I can chart my own path. I can do what I want to do with this. I can be in control of my own destiny. I don't have to work for somebody else. Watch, you know, watch myself trying to climb this ladder and someone trying to climb up underneath me, passing me by. I can kind of run my own show. So he's on his way to become an electrician and I think that's a good thing. It's, it's kind of a healthy replacement of what are we going to do with all these workers that displaces. There's things, there's a lot of people need a lot of things. So we'll find a way to do it.

[Aaron]

I think so. I'm pretty, yeah, I'm pretty optimistic. Like, could the world end? I don't know, Maybe. Yeah, it could end tomorrow. With nuclear war.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And that way, since the 40s, has your message changed at all since. Since you started really talking about this publicly?

[Ken Rusk]

The message has changed a little bit. I think we're in a place where, you know, there's the Mike Rose of the world, and I'm doing what I'm doing. You're doing what you're doing. I think that we have made that type of work. We've taken the stigma out of the word blue. Blue collar. I think we have. I think we've done a really good job of that. Where I'm headed now is I just finished. In fact, I was just editing it on the plane on the way down here. I think now we need to find, you know, because businesses were asking me, okay, so you're describing to a young person what he or she should do in your first offering to design the perfect life for themselves and then find the way to go out and get it. How do we, as bosses, owners, managers, whatever. How do we develop the culture that would attract that person? Okay, because the kids are still job shopping. They're still hopping from one opportunity to the next to the next, to the next. And it's just so easy.

[Aaron]

Just don't bang too much. It's not picked up. No, no. I do that all the time.

[Ken Rusk]

It's just so easy to do. It's almost like these college football players who can enter the portal and just go wherever they want. They're. They're asking me. They asked me to write a book based on, well, how do I attract people now? How do I create a culture that's so cool that people want to come here, they want to work here? Like, when I walk into your building, okay, I see this amazing, comfortable design. I see this really cool culture. It feels great in here. You know, there's. There's. There's lights, there's sounds, there's feels. You've done it. You've created that type of culture that would attract people who want to work here. I think it's great. So many companies, you walk in the front door and you're like, is anybody winning in this building, or are we all losing?

[Aaron]

Or it's like a doctor's office, right?

[Ken Rusk]

What's going on here? So that's where my message is kind of going now, is to recognize that there are those people out there that want to find a place that they can call their own. Recognize there are people that want to work hard with and through your organization, but they are still selfish. And I don't mean selfish a Negative term. I don't mean selfish at the detriment of somebody else. I mean selfish as I want what I want for myself, I'm going to work for myself first and for the company second. And I hope you like it because that's how I'm thinking.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

And so as a boss, owner or manager, you can get pretty chapped by that if you don't understand what they're really saying.

[Aaron]

Well, and it's, it's, it's just different generations. It is. And wanting different things. I think like my dad's generation, he was born in the 50s, tail end, baby boomer. And he prioritized, you know, career longevity. And you wanted to be with, with one company. You wanted to work your way up, you wanted to max out your, your 401k retirement was everything.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You wanted a nice house, nice cars. Like you wanted to live the American dream, so to speak. That's what they were sold, I think. And, and now I think we've seen our parents do it and it's like, all right, there's some advantages to that. But at the same time, me just working away for XYZ Corporation for 40 years just because they can give me a paycheck, I don't think I need to do that. And honestly, like, I can't even really afford that stuff now, so. And then Covid was a whole other can of worms in terms of like looking at my life like, what am I really doing here? What's the whole point? Like, what's so I'm not essential? Like, what am I, what am I even trying to achieve? And now I think more and more we want a sense of purpose. Like, like, okay, cool, you can give me a paycheck. Great. I'll check that box. Health insurance, I'll check that box for 1k. I'll check that box. Employers are out there shouting like, their pay and benefits, it's like, that's fine. But everybody kind of has that now. And those are, I know those for you were the most important things for us. It's like, those are all right, I need to check those boxes. I need to fulfill those requirements. But then there's this next level that is like, why am I here and what am I contributing and what's the point?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, you know, you said something that I think is amazing. And I think it's probably one of the more over looked parts of the whole Covid thing. We spent a week or so trying to make our company essential when they said it wasn't. So we went from, okay, we're gonna fix your basement. We're gonna make it warm, clean, safe and dry. And we're gonna dig the ditches around the house to run their water away. And we're gonna do all that stuff. We went from that to it's a home health issue, because if you have a bunch of mold inside your house or if you have a bunch of chemicals inside your house, you shouldn't be breathing that stuff. And we actually converted ourselves from a non essential to an essential company. And I have to tell you, the people within the company, because, you know, as a business owner, you think you've seen everything, right? And. And when Covid hit, you know, I had 225 people stand in front of me going, well, what are we going to do now? And I'm looking back at them going, well, let's figure it out. Because I hadn't run into that before. How many pandemics do you run into in your career? Right. So hopefully one in my career. Right, Fingers crossed. Exactly. So we converted from non essential to essential, and all of a sud that became our new core values. We're creating healthy living environments. So we went from a redheaded stepchild to like an essential thing. And that became the personality of the company. And I didn't design it that way. It just kind of happened. So for individual people, like you just said, I think that's really overlooked because if you were deemed non essential, what does that do to your psyche? What does that do to your ego? What does that do to your personality? Hey, you're not essential to this world. Wow. You know, police pulling you over and saying you're not essential. Go home. Really? So what you're saying means so much? Because what I'm trying to do is, I'm trying to take that feeling and say, okay, is. Is what you do for a living as important as what you do with what you do for a living? Like, are you really trying to create the best life for yourself? And isn't there, once you have that goal of what your life could look like, aren't there a lot of different ways you could get there? And so that's kind of. I'm not trying to say that the job isn't as meaningful, but what I'm saying is you need to focus on what's the job doing for you? Like, how is that fulfilling your life? How is that enabling you to have a wife and kids or a husband and kids in a house, or, you know, the way you see your life and only you can see that by the way, the way you see it, that's kind of how I try to convert that message of essential to, well, what is life essential? Meaning if job essential is this? What does life essential mean to you? Why are you doing all this?

[Aaron]

Yeah, I think in this vein, to people, I think people are inherently selfish. Like, I think that's the human condition. I think that's, that's what's trapped. That's the perspective travel's given me is like, everybody, no matter where they are in the world, is just out to hopefully give their kids a better future and a better life than they're living currently. Like, most everybody, I would say, like, your priority. Like, like your daughter is more important to you than me, right? Like, like, like, yeah, that's, that's your priority. Like, like everybody's family is their priority.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

It's not the job, it's not the company, it's.

[Ken Rusk]

It's right.

[Aaron]

I'm here to take care of my family, but I think that's a really healthy way. Like, me as an employer, I've, I've never forgotten that. I'm like, I am here to help all of these people take care of their families and to get to where they want to be in life. Ideally, that and where the business needs to go, those two things are aligned, which I think creates something really special. But as soon as I don't fulfill the condition that is helping them take care of their family and get closer to where they want to be in life, they're out. I don't have contracts with people. They're free agents.

[Ken Rusk]

They are.

[Aaron]

They can leave any day of the week.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And, but I think that's a really healthy position to be in as it holds you accountable and, and, and, and it just better aligns you with, with people because I think if you help them get to where they want to be, they're then going to help you get to where you need to be. Like, but I think you kind of have to. I think that's one thing I've learned in leadership is like, the more I can learn about what people want and the more I can help them get there, the better off I'm going to be. A lot of times that's money, but a lot of times that's like, I, maybe I'm overweight or, or maybe I just, I don't have any money whatsoever and I need to figure out even how to save, or I've got a problem with alcohol or I would love to have a family. I don't. I Just I don't know where to start. Or there's a hundred different things. Or I have this dream of, like, going to the Bahamas. I don't know, like, the more you can figure this stuff out and the more you can get people there, I think the better off you are.

[Ken Rusk]

There is no doubt. I mean, you could have helped me write my current book right now. Because if you look at a company as a linear creature, for example, so I've stood in front of my people so many times and said, listen, I can't get what I want for myself, nor can my company get what it wants or needs until all of you get what you want first.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ken Rusk]

And it's absolutely true. And. And here it is. You have a linear company. And if you're looking, you know, if you're thinking about this in your mind, you have input from the left. You have people and parts and machinery and raw materials and whatnot. And something is created that. That thing is then called a product or a service that then is. Then that thing is then assigned a price. It is then marketed and sold and then is installed and hopefully it is paid for. And guess where Aaron and Ken are at the end of that line. Yeah, right. In a thing called profit, Hopefully. Right, sure. So why wouldn't you want all of those people winning for themselves and winning big time that are in that line in front of you and called the people that work at your organization? That's why we push so hard for people to say, what do you. What are you chasing? Like, what are you after? Is it a new car? Is it paying off a debt? Is it getting your driver's license cleaned up? Is it going to. We've had people do things like putting decks on their houses and they've upgraded their apartments and they've gone to Scotland to visit their cousins.

[Aaron]

Exactly.

[Ken Rusk]

I mean, all those kinds of things. And those things are marked up on a wall where everyone gets to see them.

[Aaron]

That's cool.

[Ken Rusk]

Okay, there's a wall that's probably eight by eight. We have these markers that look like neon, like you'd see at a margarita board, the special drink of the day. And it says, It's January 1st. I'm saving $50 a week. I'm gonna go to Spain. I need this much money. And they sign it and they date it. And we do that because then not only are they committed to it, Aaron, but now everyone else gets to see it. And sharing one of your timed pathways, which is what? We can't use the word goal in our company because that's too. That's too vague. It's a timed pathway. So once you have a time pathway up on the board, everyone gets to see that. And now there's high fiving going on and there's, hey, wow, you're only like six months away from going to Spain. That is so cool. That is a constant in our. In our group. Because to your point, if I can't create places where people win for themselves, what am I doing as a CEO? I mean, what really am I doing? You know, can you crank out dollars? Of course you can. Can you burn people? Of course you can. But don't you have to look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say, what did I do? What did I leave here? And again, my win. I mean, I go in every day thinking, who's going to win what around here other than me? And when you come from that type of a. When you come from that type of a feeling, you automatically create a culture that is so attractive that people just want to hang out.

[Aaron]

When you go, we'll talk more about the up and coming book. But when you go speak to a group of people building stuff like, I know, I know Barenko had you at one of their annual meetings.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So you're addressing a group of, say, 100 blue collar folks. What's. What's the core message you try to get to that audience?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, the first thing that we do is. Is you need. The first thing we say is, you need to begin with the end in mind. You need to be chasing something. I mean, why are you working if you're not improving your lives? Sure. In fact, at this last one, we had a couple of people up on stage drawing what they wanted to do, their next big goal. And the crowd couldn't see them, so they're literally drawing. One wanted to take his son. He wanted to reconnect with his son because he had lost his relationship with his son. And he wanted to take him to their favorite place that they used to go to when he was a young boy and he was planning this trip. So he drew this trip and the canoe and this and that and all the things that he wanted to do with his son. And he drew him and his son there. And it was a very moving moment. But no one knew that in the crowd until we revealed it. Okay. We had somebody else on the other side that was planning. They wanted to upgrade their house, and they wanted to do this, this, this, this, and this. So they're drawing on this huge easel, and at the end of the day, we flip those things around and we actually had pathways for them to go get these things. So an if goal or an if timed pathway turned into a when time pathway. And I think that was the biggest difference for them. They needed to understand that they are in control of what their life looks like going forward. They're in control of their debt load, they're in control their input, their output. They're in control of their financial gain. They're in control of what their picture that only they can produce, how that happens and how fast it happens and at what rate that it happens. So once they recognize that, you know what, we should be chasing something, why am I just living for Friday? I mean, I can dump my, I can dump 75 bucks into Bud Light on Friday, but that's not the answer.

[Aaron]

But how do you, when someone says like, I don't know, how do you, how do you draw it out of them? How do you try to connect those dots?

[Ken Rusk]

Great question. So typically they meet with their family. You might not be able to figure this out, but your wife and kids do. So why don't you go home, get a piece of paper, sit in a dark room, turn off all the phones and say, what do we want our lives to look like? And now you get input from the kids and what vacations they might like. You get input from the wife on what her priorities are. You get input from the husband like, well, well, maybe I can do this. And now there's this team and there's excitement and it builds. And then they come back and they're like, I'm ready to do this. And here's the thing, Aaron, you only have to teach them this once because as soon as they get their first time pathway, get out of their way, baby. Because they're going to, they're going to be a goal crushing machine. And we have so many examples at our office where people are like, I'm chasing something and it's up on the board. I didn't even tell them to put it there.

[Aaron]

That's really good.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Get with your family.

[Ken Rusk]

Get with your family. That's what it's all about.

[Aaron]

Wow, that's a, that's that is a great answer.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, well, I'll tell you a really good answer. You talk again. I mean, this is a guy who's 6 foot 4, 280 pounds and he, yeah, he's got tattoo and he's driving an earth mover. Right. He's just driving this thing around. He's not necessarily thinking about those Types of things.

[Aaron]

But someone is what about single, 23 year old male.

[Ken Rusk]

They all want something, you know, I'll tell you, I taught at a junior achievement class, and these were some kids who came from a very rough neighborhood. And I mean, scary rough. When I first walked in there, I'm like, am I going to make it out of this place? It takes, it takes a few shots at it, but they all eventually come up with something. I mean, this kid, I never forget him, this big kid in the corner, he looked at me and he's like, man, what are you doing here? Why are you trying to help us? You know, you're just gonna say something fancy and get out of our lives.

[Aaron]

And how old was he?

[Ken Rusk]

He was probably 16.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Ken Rusk]

Within three days of me, three sessions of me teaching, he's like, you know, I think I'd really like to have a silver F150 pickup truck. And we put a plan together for him and he's like, I'm gonna get this job, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna save this much money. And then at the end of the day, at the end of that 12 session thing, he goes, you know what? You were there for us, man. We believe you now. But it took, it took. I had to break some, I had to break some barriers to get to this kid. So they're out there and they know what they want. You just have to, you just have to stick with them. Because the reason they don't tell you is because they don't believe it's A, gonna happen or B, you really care.

[Aaron]

Because often, I mean, most everybody, they've never really had somebody that's believed in them.

[Ken Rusk]

I found you're right.

[Aaron]

I mean, you can be 53 years old and you've never had somebody that's actually believed in you and cared for you and, and actually looked after you, which are. I mean, some of those people are the most damaged because they've just been a lone wolf their whole life.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

If I don't do it, it won't get done. They. They're not very trusting, and I don't blame them. They've just been in an environment that just has not given them that.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, this one particular guy, he was probably in his 40s. And the emotion on his face when he drew reconnecting with his son who he had disappointed. I mean, I don't know whether it was addiction or what it was, but he disappointed his son in a major way. And for them to get back together and connect, it was there Was there was some not so dry eyes in the room when he was doing this. It was really powerful. And again, you know, I'm like you. I'm just a guy. I'm just a construction guy. And I kind of know what works because I've had to experiment over 37 years, 38 years. What makes people go from I'm living for Friday to I'm building my life. And you just have to keep at it because everybody wants something. And to your point, maybe they don't trust you to pull that out right now. Sure. But if you keep at it and you show. And that's why the board is so important, because now this guy walks back and forth and he goes, wow, all these people are winning on this board, and I'm not, because I'm not even on the board. What am I doing? And you'll pull some people out of some pretty dark places and get them on that board. And it's a revelation, man. It's awesome.

[Aaron]

This is also. I think it's important to note, too, things are perfectly acceptable for me. Like, we're creating a lot of impact, and there's. There's all kinds of stuff I want to do, but, like, one of the. It's probably the physical thing that I've thought about every day for years and years and years is a plane. Yeah, I want a plane.

[Ken Rusk]

There you go.

[Aaron]

That's, like, pretty ridiculous, but it's like, no, I want a plane. I'm gonna get a damn plane.

[Ken Rusk]

It's gonna happen.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's not like I think people. People on the outside will criticize that. It's like. Well, it's not all about physical things. Like. No, it's not. But like, if that can drive you to do some great things and to get in a great direction and support people along the way, then what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with that.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, here's what I always say about that. So I'm a car guy. I've got a bunch of cars.

[Aaron]

Nice.

[Ken Rusk]

I don't just stare at them like trophies. I drive them. Hey, Nancy, get in the Corvette. We're going to dinner. Beautiful night, sun setting. It's a memory. Okay? I jump my kids in the pickup truck, and we just do whatever. I mean, we. We. I mean, whatever it might be, I've got something in Ferrar in Naples, Florida, that I take to. I love driving to happy hours at these nice hotels. Right. It's a memory thing. You go have a drink, you see in the sunset, the Car didn't do anything but get you there, but it got you there in style. Right. And it's just fun. I mean, you got 90 revolutions on this planet. If you're lucky. Right. You might as well enjoy them as much as you can. So it's never going to be the camper. It's the camper that your kids grew up in, fishing at the corner of the lake. And you got pictures of that. So you're right about the things, but it's the memories you create with the things that really matter. And I surround my house and my office with photographs of things that I have done with those things, and that's what really makes the difference. So the challenge I have for you is, is there a timed pathway to the plane or is that just something that's out there?

[Aaron]

Like, I know I'm doing what I need to, to get it. Like, I. And. But I don't. I don't exactly know the timeline, but I'm comfortable with what I'm doing to know that, like, I'll get it.

[Ken Rusk]

It's coming.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's just a matter of time.

[Ken Rusk]

Perfect.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And, and for me, it's like, I don't want a plane to just like, ball out. Like, I. I want it to bend time.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

It's such a believable weapon ab.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And can get me with more people on the more job sites, more places. Like. Yeah. That to me is so attractive. Like, no doubt about it. Just. Yeah. Is there a car that you're trying to. That. That you don't have that you want?

[Ken Rusk]

No. Because I just finished my collection and my wife said you ran out of places to put them, so you can't have any more. Now I might upgrade one that I've had for 20 years. I might upgrade it because it's the experience of upgrading it that's going to be really cool.

[Aaron]

That makes sense.

[Ken Rusk]

So this particular one I would take delivery of in Germany and then I would drive it around this circle that they have pre planned for you when you get there, and then you ship the car home. So it's the experience of doing that that would cause me to upgrade it. But the number of cars. Yeah, I'm good there.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can only drive one at a time.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. But bending time to your point, I mean, I flew down here this morning. I'm going to fly home this afternoon because my daughter's gonna have a baby, like, at any moment. And she, I called her yesterday. I said, I said, buddy, what do you Think, should I go? And she said, yeah, dad, I'm not really ready. And, you know, most pregnancies happen a week after the due date or whatever. So she convinced me that I could come. And so. But I'm still sitting here, you know, is it gonna happen today? So, you know, that's. But. But you're right. Bending time. I'm gonna come down here, I'm gonna go home. It's gonna be a wonderful experience, and I could have done that any other way.

[Aaron]

But I also think it's valuable in you sharing this stuff, too, because it illustrates what's possible. It's like, listen, I just. I just worked and, like, the more you put in, the more you get out. Like, I was. I was raised around guys that started at the bottom. Like, one was from Mississippi, one was from Alabama. Like, just kind of shitty parts of the country.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

And they just ground away.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I was seeing the end result. I thought that was always the state of affairs, especially as a kid. Like, yeah, they're in their 50s, of course, finally enjoying 30, 40 years of work. But the world that they had built was like, this is extraordinary. And now I don't want, you know, one for one. Like, there's some. I like this. I like that. But.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But whenever I see someone that's like, I want to go build this world, and then they've built that world, I think that's the coolest thing that is. There's nothing I'm watching right now, like, when I'm training on my bike in the morning, I. Bike trainer at home, watching, like, a Gordon Ramsay documentary on how he's building a new restaurant.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it fires me up as a young man. It's like, sure, this is cool, seeing some guy that's just worked building. Like, I have this in my head, and I'm gonna put all this on the line to make it a reality.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

He makes it a reality. And it's like, that's badass.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, you know, here. Talk about Barranco for a second. Okay. I couldn't believe how many pieces of equipment that company has.

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

I went to that headquarters, and, you know, it's 17 below in February. Right. I went to. I could not believe the amount, the number of track, hose and bulldozers and earth. I mean, he has got just a sea of vehicles over there. And look what he's done. I mean, he started building a couple roads, and look, he's all over the country now, so hats off to him. And now what I love about what he's doing is, he's even created these little, they're almost like simulators where you can learn how to drive a bulldozer in a simulator.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ken Rusk]

And they're fantastic.

[Aaron]

Well and he's a, he's a big supporter of the, the local, the local technical college.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, we went there.

[Aaron]

It's really cool.

[Ken Rusk]

It's super cool.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. But that like kind of sidebar, it's like for, for when people say go to trade school. It's, it is pretty built out for electricians, for plumbers, for eight track because it's supported by some of the real big companies now but in civil construction it's, it's, it's non existent and so it's up to private industry to create it. Yeah, I think he's a great example of like let me partner with the local trade school. What do you guys need? Let's make it happen. Whether they're coming to work for us, coming to work for somebody else, we're

[Ken Rusk]

just doing our part. And there's a guy that has an empire and he's such a nice down to earth guy. You wouldn't know it if you, I mean we had dinner with him and he such a wonderful human being. Right.

[Aaron]

You'd never, you'd never guess it with, with that guy or like every other leader I know in the, in the industry in our, I just really know civil construction folks. They are, they're pretty low key. It's pretty under the radar.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Crowd. Okay, so, so you get people to, you tease out of them what they want. How do you get them what they want? Well, how do you make it happen?

[Ken Rusk]

So first off there has to be a time pathway that makes sense and they have to convince us that this timed pathway makes sense. I can't afford to save this $50 every week for two years.

[Aaron]

So you'll like alright, your goal is a vacation to Disneyland with your family.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

You've got four people. The vacation, let's just run through. You kind of help them walk, walk through. Like what does this cost?

[Ken Rusk]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

So it's going to cost $4,000.

[Ken Rusk]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And then okay, how much can you save weekly?

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Divide that, you know, divide 4,000 by that.

[Ken Rusk]

You got it.

[Aaron]

And now all right, within, if you save X amount of dollars within 47 weeks you guys can be going.

[Ken Rusk]

Well the real beauty of it is to turn it from an if to a when because that's what everybody fails at. They think there's, you know, if I do this then I can make that happen. Wrong. It's when I do this, I can make this happen. Here's the difference. I don't care if you go in one year, two years, three years, or four years. I mean, our first Scotland trip, we planned out three years in advance so we could afford to save the money. So to use your $4,000 example, okay, if I can save 20 bucks a week, I'll go in four years. Sure. If I can save 40 bucks a week, I'll go In two. See what I mean? So it just depends on how far out you want to put it, but it's a for sure. And for all the people out there who are listening that say, well, wow, putting something out, three years, that's a long time. Believe me, three years goes by in a few flash. Especially when you're anticipating it for three years. You get to talk about the places you're going, the hotels you're going to stay out, the rides you're going to ride. You get to do all those things. And the anticipation is almost as much fun as doing it. You've heard that said. Yeah, but that three years goes by in a flash. But here's the difference. You now are confident. You, your wife, your family, you're confident it's going to happen, not if maybe it'll happen. And that's the real secret to it. So if you put all these formulas up on the wall, these time and pathways, you're seeing people who are committing to doing something. And I'm very specific about, can you make this happen? Yes. Because if not, push it out of here. Doesn't matter. Okay. As long as you start now. Push it out of here.

[Aaron]

And it's just one thing they do

[Ken Rusk]

one at a time.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Because again, if you teach them to do it once, like, I've got one gal, she actually made a mistake. She was new in our company. She walked down the hallway and I was celebrating an accomplished time pathway with somebody. And she looks up and she goes, wow, that's really cool. Someday I'm gonna do that. And the guy that was standing next to me goes, you did not just say someday. He doesn't own the word someday. Okay? So I looked at her and I said, go home this weekend. Talk to your family on Monday. We're putting something up on the board. She did. She. She always had this thing about she never paid her dad back $2,500 for a car that she, she borrowed the money for and she felt bad about it. So I said, can you afford, like, you know, $48 a week. And she goes, well, yeah. I said, you'll haven't paid off in a year. And she looked at me, Aaron, like I invented penicillin. I said, this is just simple math. Right. Well, since then, she not only did that, she's bought her first house, she's bought a car, she's got a couple of kids, she got paid for her marriage or her wedding, and she's now like, get out of my way. I'm good. I don't even need to tell her to do this anymore.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

So you're, you're, you're really looking to build. I mean, it's not an insensitive term, but you're looking to build these gold crushing machines in people. And, and all they have to do is hit it once and they get it.

[Aaron]

And just like, what you're doing is you're building a sense of confidence. 100 and, and I think, like, confidence. I've had to understand this as a, as a, as a man over maybe the past decade. I always thought confidence was like, you either have it or you don't. Like, you go back to high school and you're at, you're either at the popular kids table, which is very much a real thing, or you kind of suck.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's just nature. It's just the natural pecking order. It is natural state of affairs.

[Ken Rusk]

That's exactly what it is, the circle of life.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And so you're kind of programmed with, with the way that works, like the social hierarchy works when you're a kid and based on money and some other things too. But really it's kind of driven by like, if you're bigger, if you're good looking, of course, it's incredible how primitive it is.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

But then as you get into your adult life, you're like, wait a minute, that's kind of like fake confidence.

[Ken Rusk]

It is.

[Aaron]

And then there's this earned sense of confidence that is, that is earned by setting goals, doing hard things, and really just keeping your word to yourself. It's, it's internal. It's. I'm going to, I'm going to run a half marathon. And then you train, train, train, train, train, you run the half marathon. And it's not even really the half marathon that does it. It's the, the process of keeping your word. And man, it was raining that one day and I still did my three miles right. And I did something hard. And now, wow, I really can do what I say. I'm going to do. And then it just, you just build upon it.

[Ken Rusk]

So there's a wonderful exercise that you can do with somebody when you're trying to get them to see something like that. And you get them a piece of paper and a pencil or even a crayon, because the last time you held a crayon in your hand, you were probably 5 years old or whatever. But you get him a piece of paper and a crayon and you say, I want you to do me a favor. I want you to draw confidence. Because they look back at you and they go, well, it's kind of a, kind of a term. It's kind of a thing. How do I really draw that? And I said, well, just draw you as a confident you. Right. What are they doing? They're standing a little taller, Their shoulders are back, they're smiling a little bit more.

[Aaron]

There's slimmer.

[Ken Rusk]

There's probably some accomplishments around them.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, yeah, right. So getting them to see that, these terms that we've been using since we were little people. Wow, look how confident that is. That guy is. Well, what does that mean? Draw that? Okay. It's like drawing an entre. Oh, he's an entrepreneur, so he's successful. Okay, here. Draw entrepreneur. What does that mean? You can't draw it. You have to draw that person doing something which creates that entrepreneurial result.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

But you can't necessarily draw the term entrepreneur. So if you get someone to kind of like get into what that looks, feels and smells and tastes like by drawing it out, you'll see them going, okay, I get it. The confidence. It starts with me.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I talk to people about this all the time because they're like, people give me credit for my confidence, but it's like, I wish, I so badly Wish I had 14 year old Aaron.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That I can show you. Like, like I sucked. Like, dude, I was, I was so. Man, I lacked every ounce of confidence there was.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Look at you now.

[Aaron]

It was brutal. But it's, it's, it's like I have nothing special. I, I was, I was teed up very well. I had the right parents. I was born in the right place, in the right country, in the right. Oh, yeah. In the right environment. So I have had a lot of advantages. But like me as an individual, I don't really have any kind of special skill, any kind of special intelligence, nothing like that. It's just, I've just kind of chipped away at it day after day after day after day. And when you do that for like a decade. You kind of look back and you're like, damn, this is pretty extraordinary just how far you can get in not even that much time.

[Ken Rusk]

So is your special skill then persistence maybe?

[Aaron]

I am, I am stupid consistent.

[Ken Rusk]

It would have to be.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. If I say I'm going to do something every day, yeah, I will do it every day until I die. It's almost, yeah, it's almost a problem sometimes.

[Ken Rusk]

So you and me are a lot alike. I've been making the same protein shake, although I've changed the ingredients. I've been making the same protein shake every morning at 7:30 for the last 30 some years.

[Aaron]

What's in your protein shake?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, it starts with plant proteins and a group of those. And then it has the greens and the reds, which are the fruits and the vegetables. And it has olive oil and it has cinnamon and it has a salt water complex which is called 40,000 volts.

[Aaron]

Holy smokes.

[Ken Rusk]

And it has creatine glutathione. It has some mushroom thing that has turmeric in it and has a bunch of fruit and it has homemade almond milk which I make every couple, three days at my house. And that's what I've been doing.

[Aaron]

Right, okay. All right. It can't be the same one. You've got, you've, you've adjusted this.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, I've added to it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. I think before it might have been like.

[Ken Rusk]

But the activity, the activity is the same. Yeah. Early on it was just protein powder, banana. Yeah, I get that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

Walmart, some ice. Right. So, but here's the cool thing. I have the rotating frame next to that machine and I have a pub on my first floor. So I use it for a lot of reasons, but that's, this is the most important, the most, most healthy one. That rotating frame is sitting right next to that protein or that protein maker, that machine. And I look at that thing for the three or four minutes that that thing's grinding up and I see all the memories of all the cool things that I've, I've done, whether it's myself with my family, with my buddies on golf trips or the countries I've traveled, whatever. And I just, I don't practice gratefulness that people say, you know, they can that phrase. I practice grateful. I'm just grateful, man.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

I look at that and I go, that's freaking cool. Look at the things that we've done, you know, look at the cool things that we've done. And, and if somebody ever said, well, tell me about Your life. I'd say just go look at my frame, you know, so I'm like you. I, I am horribly habitual at things like that. I have to work out so many times, I have to do this, I have to do that, I have to practice my golf swing, all this stuff. But yeah, I, I think consistency and persistence overcomes just about anything.

[Aaron]

So that's the core message with people, everyday folks, Hunter, blue collar folks that you're talking about is let's just work on defining what you want and how we're going to get it for you.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. And also having them understand that nobody knows anything about what your perfect life could be. Nobody knows that but you. So stop listening to, you know, the teachers and the, and the, and the, and the parents that are giving you the bad advice and don't listen to the expectation of others. Sit down and say what would be cool if I could live this way and define this way. If I could live this way, I would have life licked. Like I would be comfortable, peaceful and free. That would be my thing. If I could just do that. Understand that they have the choice in what that picture looks like. Because so many times it's, I'm going to live like everyone else thinks I should have, I should have a, I should have a fancy car and I should have a nice house or I should have this or that. No, you should have what you want. Does anyone know? Could I possibly. Aaron, Know what your favorite color is right now? There's no way. But you do. I don't know what you drive, I don't know what your favorite car is, but you do. So, so why are you listening to me about what my opinion is on any of that stuff? So have the confidence to know that you know what you want your life to look like and then let's start developing time pathways to go get them.

[Aaron]

A lot of this is not all of it, probably not a lot of it, but, but, but a lot of it is financially motivated and based. How do you counsel people in this world from a financial perspective? Like all right, you do need, you need, you want a house and you're going to need a sizable down payment. Like, let's go beyond vacation. So you need $50,000.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Over a five year period.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And say they've got no savings, they're just whatever comes in goes right out.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

How do you, how do you counsel these younger people on, on money and economics?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, this is where, this is where it gets really interesting because you know, people that our owners, bosses, managers, they're like, well, wait a minute, what are you trying to tell me here, Rusk? If it is truly your goal to create a happy, independent, financially solvent and self sustaining person, if that is truly your goal as a CEO, you better be ready to lose that person.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

Because if you've had the benefit of them for four or five years, but they want more than you can give them, then you have to be ready to say, I think if you want that kind of life, you need to do that somewhere other than here. You might need to take the next step. And I'm totally okay with that because I've had this wonderful person in my employee for this many years. I've enjoyed the benefit of that and they've enjoyed the benefit of working there. But if it's beyond what I can give them, I have to be mature enough to say, I want what you want. That may not be here. And that's where people go, oh, Ken, come on. How can you do that? Well, are you really interested in creating what you're saying you're creating? Because that does wash off on other people. I mean, there's different levels of financing that people have. There's different levels of life that people want to live. Or you can say this, your current position within our company pays you X and that might not support that particular lifestyle. However, there's six other positions within our company that you could jump to that can support that. And that's happened a lot with us. We've had marketers come in, turn into salespeople.

[Aaron]

I see.

[Ken Rusk]

Okay. We've had, we've had people who were digging, digging ditches with us who turned into marketers. So they just take that leap because the want they have is so strong. Why wouldn't you want that person to stay within your organization as long as possible? But you do have to be ready for someone to say, you know, before they say it themselves. You know, that might be something that's beyond us.

[Aaron]

Wasn't Connor with you? Yeah, he's our best salesperson right now.

[Ken Rusk]

Is he really?

[Aaron]

He's kicking ass.

[Ken Rusk]

Love that kid. Yeah, I love it. Do you know he goes, he volunteers to mow the lawn at the church every weekend.

[Aaron]

Does he really?

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, he's a great guy. I mean, he's. Yeah, he's just. And he's.

[Aaron]

That doesn't surprise me.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, his wife's great. I think they, I don't know, they have one or two kids now.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure, but I should know that. I think it's just one.

[Ken Rusk]

He's a great, he's a great kid. Always, always loved him.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. But.

[Ken Rusk]

And that was a perfect example.

[Aaron]

A great example.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, he, he kind of, he kind of said, I've got these things and I want to do these things. And we're like, God bless you. Go do it.

[Aaron]

Well, and then he went, he came to us because he was doing marketing with you. Came to us to do marketing. And it just, there were all kinds of conditions that, that weren't helping that along. So we were like, what about sales? And he had never done sales before. Yeah, he's just taken to it like a duck to water.

[Ken Rusk]

That is so great.

[Aaron]

It's been really cool to see.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. And not, I mean, and to give him all the credit, like, it's, it's not because you just got lucky. Like, he's worked at it and his humility is through the roof.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

He, he's aware of what he doesn't know and he's working to figure it out.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, the beautiful thing is, is you have that. You had a pathway for him to go.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ken Rusk]

You know what I mean? That's the really wonderful part about it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Those are the, that's like ultimately the hope. But to think that that's always going to be the case is unreasonable. A friend of mine, he's put it the best I've heard too. It's like you're even with your employer every two weeks and it's like, that's. Again, I kind of talked about that from an employment standpoint, but from an employee standpoint too. From, from a person standpoint, like, it's both ways. It's a two way street. Yeah. And like, do your best. Fulfill your obligation. Like they're paying you to do a job. Do it to your fullest. But if that, if that can't get you where you need to go anymore, you, like, you have to be in charge of you. No one's going to look out for you better than you can look out for you. And so that's how I counsel, especially these younger people that they're getting fed all this corporate bullshit about loyalty and oh, you're just so special. This and that. And I'm like, dude, don't buy any of that for a single moment. Because if the shoes on the other foot, they're gonna get rid of your ass so fast. You are a number and nothing more, which is okay. Like, do your best. Don't. That doesn't mean take advantage. But if you need to go somewhere else to achieve what you want to go achieve, you go do it. Like, go somewhere else. Leave. Go. Go change your career. Whatever you need to do to make it happen. Because no one's going to come and put your. Put their arm around you and say, oh, I see. You want to go over there. Let's go make it happen. Like, hopefully people help you along the way. I think anybody can just make it on their own. But it's on you. It's, it's. It's. It's your responsibility to ensure that you get to where you want to be.

[Ken Rusk]

Well. And that's why. Well, first off, thank you for saying that about Connor, because I am so happy that he's happy. I'm so happy he's successful and he doesn't work for me anymore.

[Aaron]

Well, but. And he wouldn't be where he is here without whatever he was doing with you.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, that. And that's the point. I mean, isn't it truly a blessing for us to be able to. Again, let's go back to it. It's not altruistic. It's not bullshit. I am in the business of helping people make the best part of them their best version of themselves as possible. That's what I'm doing. And if that means they work in our organization for. Fine. Look at, look at what Connor's doing now. I am genuinely thrilled for him, even though he doesn't work for us anymore. And that, That's. That's the greatest thing. I will consider that a 3%. Maybe I had 3% to do with what he's doing right now. Okay, not. Not 80, but maybe three. And that's good enough for me because he's a. He's a great kid. He's a happy guy. So looking at all of your employees, you just do it the same way. I mean, once you know what they're all into, you can kind of judge who's going to do what, when, where, and how. You can kind of see that. You can kind of feel it.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

And you can also guide them. Right. And maybe this position doesn't have it, but that position does. Same thing you did with Connor. So it's a beautiful thing to have enough capacity within your organization that you can move people around into those opportunities, but you also have to recognize, if it gets to a certain point, let them go do their thing.

[Aaron]

And you have to watch and listen people, too, because I think you do need to help them get to where they can be. And a lot of people can't see their potential in a way. And so I think you do need to. We've had a lot of really good examples now where it's like sometimes we've had to say, hey, this probably isn't it for you. And if we let you go, you'd probably just keep hitting your head against the wall over here.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

However, this is, this is your, your, your superpower. And this over here aligns pretty nicely with that superpower.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

So why don't you run in this direction? And it's really cool when really works. It's like, wow, this is cool. And they knew it. Like, they're the ones doing it. But you kind of had to, hey, let's actually, let's go over here. Like, I think actually this is gonna be better for you.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, I think so many people, Aaron, are so risk averse. You know, they're just. And that's, that's why they make good intrapreneurs. And maybe not so much entrepreneurs, but every company should be firing at all cylinders to find as many intrapreneurs as they can find. Yes. You know what I mean? And I've even gone so far when you talk about helping them. I've even gone so far as I have these giant poster boards. They're about as big as that television screen there. And I give them prompts on the bottom. You know, draw your house, draw your car, draw your peace of mind. Draw your hobbies, draw your vacations. Draw your pets. A dog or a cat. What color? What would you name it? So I give them these prompts along the bottom of these boards and then have them go home and draw, Start their life drawing so that they can see well, what kinds of things should I be thinking about that would make my life cool? Right.

[Aaron]

How many eye rolls do you get when you talk to people about this first? Like, is this guy serious? I'm going to draw my pets.

[Ken Rusk]

I. I got to tell you, I don't get many eye rolls because people go, wow, who. Who are you? Where'd you come up with this? And, and that's okay. I mean, if they think I'm from Mars, I'm good with it. But they also know that it works, so they can't deny it. Okay. Our turnover is very low. And, you know, our guys are knee deep and slop every day and jackhammers and concrete dust, but they're all on paths to do great things with. You know, we did an ESOP now we did a 401. We've had a 401k for a long time. So they're on the path and they know it. And, you know, when I was a younger man, I would have walked through a mile of crap to get that 81Z28 that I bought. So it's just, you know, it was just one of those things.

[Aaron]

But I found most people, again, they just want, like, they don't want to be stressed about money all the time. They want to be able to give their family valuable experiences.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

They. They want to have a home, a nice home in a nice neighborhood. That's. That. That has a nice school that they can send their kids to. They want to. They want to have, you know, a nice car that works every day. Like, I don't think most people want a lot, but it's unfortunately that life has become harder and harder and harder to get because it's only become way more expensive today than it was when. When my parents were my age. But I still think it's on us as employers, regardless of those circumstances, regardless of the externalities, to. To help our people get there, regardless. But I don't think it's like, I mean, is everybody. I'm sure. Is everybody like, yeah, I want a mansion and some gold chains, or am I off base there?

[Ken Rusk]

But see, I warn them about that because, in fact, in almost every podcast that I've done where people say, how do you coach your people? I say, well, the first thing is, you tell me what you want and not what the world wants for you. Okay? We're not all going to have yachts and McMansions and 15 cars, and we're not all going to have that. But that's not. That doesn't make it. I mean, we're not all going to be rap stars. I mean, that's not what makes the world work. What makes the world work is what do you want? And I need you to. And what's great is, Aaron, you get to find out how people can live so humbly and yet be so happy.

[Aaron]

That's what I mean.

[Ken Rusk]

That's the cool thing, because they'll describe something. I had one guy that I ran into in the Bahamas, believe it or not, and I called him the grass cutter from Minnesota in the first book because I never caught his name. But I happened to see him. We were at a Club Med, and I happened to see him at the bar every night, you know, with the beads. You spend your bead, buy drinks with beads. And I had about 10, 15 people with me from the company. And so this guy had a tan that was crazy. Bleach, white hair. From the sun. And you get these like colored bracelets that denote when you're coming in, when you're going. So everybody knows, well, he just got here or he's almost ready to go home. It's like their thing. Well, this guy had like eight of these bracelets on. So I asked him, I said, what's with all the bracelets? And he goes, well, I live in Minnesota. He goes, I have a small ranch house. I have like a six year old pickup truck. That's perfect. I have a little lawn business. Me and my buddies, we go out, we mow lawns and do landscaping all summer long. We save up our money and then we go to Club Med for eight straight weeks. So here's a guy who said, my life choice is going to be to travel the world and see all these Club Meds all winter, and I'm going to work my ass off to be able to afford to do that. And I'm going to shutter everything and go. So my point is that he chose that life. And I thought, my God, how cool is that? How freeing is this guy in his mind to say, well, every December I'm going to put my equipment away and I'm going to go sit in some beautiful spot for eight straight weeks. I mean, it was a choice he was making. Now, maybe that's not a sustainable choice forever, but it's the choice he made at the time. And he designed his life around the way to make that happen.

[Aaron]

So do, yeah, so do you, do you try to. Are there times where you kind of have to corral people a little bit or do you just let them go? Like, all right, if you, you want a pony, let's get you a pony.

[Ken Rusk]

That's a great question. We recently had. We had a guy who said, yeah, I'm gonna get this brand new Audi. And he says, audi, this is really what he wanted. And we had to say, okay, you have a wife and two kids and you're renting a small house. Do you think you might want to go that direction first? Sure. And he was like, yeah, we probably should. So he ended up buying like a very used Audi, you know, just to scratch the edge a little bit. But he's on the path now and he moved from marketing to sales because the house he wanted was beyond what maybe marketing could have got for him. And now he's killing it and he's getting ready to design this house and get into it. But yeah, you do have to say to some people, you know, is that the best use of your Money, right, sure. And you know, they're typically pretty honest about it. Yeah. You're a proud. Right. I shouldn't do that.

[Aaron]

But that, but, but, but the way you did that is also important. You asked a question.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Which I'm sure is what you do. You don't say, that's not the best use of your money. You ask them, is that the best use of your money?

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Tell me about your next five years with your family. I distract them, you know, Tell me about the next five. Well, we're gonna do this, this, this and this. I said, well, does Audi and house fit in the same five year window? Maybe not. So let's go that way first and then you can put that Audi out there. Just put it out. Five years, you're still going to get it. It's just a matter of when, not if.

[Aaron]

How long have you been doing this within your business?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, it's funny because the first guy I ever did it with is my number six employee that's still there from 40 years ago.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Ken Rusk]

And we didn't even know what we were doing. We were doing what you and I are doing right now. We're kicking around, talking and he's like, you know, I got all these medical bills and my wife had issues with a pregnancy and I live in an apartment, I'm on my second kid, I got to get a house. So I said, well, why don't we just sit down and draw this out and see what the, where the numbers fall and whatever. And he was a foreman at the time and he became a field supervisor, then a production manager. So I knew he was on an upward track. And we went out and he found himself a piece of land from some farmer, bought it on land contract, paid 30 grand for it, paid it off over a couple of years, and then he kept moving in that direction. He wanted his black pickup truck and this GMC pickup truck. And I said, well, I'll tell you what, if you do these things within the company and hit these numbers, I'll help you with the truck. Which was easy for me to do because he was killing it. And so that, that method of visualization, if you will, that started 40 years ago. And I look back at it and I go, wow, that really works with, you know, with the right people who are willing to put that to open up. Because I was like you, is everyone gonna be willing to open up to me or whatever?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

So I've been doing it for now, 30 some years and it's just amazing.

[Aaron]

Did you learn it Somewhere or do

[Ken Rusk]

you just kind of, you know, you know where I learned it? So I couldn't believe when I was a young kid, I was 12 years old and I wanted a new aluminum baseball bat. They were all wood and they came out with these new aluminum bats. I can hear the sound the spring, you're right. Ping, you know, the spring up. So they were like $38. And I couldn't believe that I could work in my neighbor's yards for two bucks an hour. And 19 hours later I was gonna have that new bat. I found that shocking. Like, wait a minute. So I go over there and I pick those weeds, I mow that lawn, I clean up that driveway, and 19 hours from now, I get a brand new aluminum bat. So it started with the bat because my dad said, if you want the bat, you got to go find a way to earn it. And that turned into the. Things got bigger, more expensive, and longer in time. But the visualization has driven me since I was 12.

[Aaron]

That's incredible.

[Ken Rusk]

You put the thing out there and you chop it up into pieces. Call it a time pathway, and then find your way to get there.

[Aaron]

I did it, I did it a little bit differently, but similar. I, I, but, but accidentally again, it's just, just dumb luck. I walked right into it. I wanted to, I've probably told this story before, but I wanted, I, when my, when my parents got divorced, it was a really good upbringing, actually. Like, household was solid. Yeah. Thank God. Like I had a really good foundation as a kid. As a young kid. Not, not really any bad memories. Maybe I've suppressed them, I don't know. But I've like dug through it. It's like, not really.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, I'm good.

[Aaron]

It was pretty good.

[Ken Rusk]

Right?

[Aaron]

Parents got divorced when I was like 12ish. And then, then you got to see how different both parents were from a living perspective. But my mom's house was like the wild, wild West. Anything went. And I say that in a positive way. Okay. And so I somehow talked her into a four foot aquarium in my bedroom.

[Ken Rusk]

Great.

[Aaron]

And it wasn't a very big bedroom, so it was like my bed and a four foot aquarium. I go and buy it on Craigslist. We move it into the, to the house. And it's, it's great for a while, but then I'm like, I want to make it salt water, but I didn't have the money to make it salt water.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

So I'm sitting there talking to my, talking at my friend's house, at Colton's house. And his dad, Mr. Siddle, still call him Mr. Siddle. He called me later that day. He's like, how much do you need for that aquarium? I'm like, 200. Which now I sit back and look, I'm like, $200? Yeah. Come on.

[Ken Rusk]

But it was forever back there.

[Aaron]

Do $200. That was. That was a boatload of money at this time. And he's like, I'll loan you the $200. You will then come up to Montana. And I knew Montana really well. I'd been up there almost every summer of my life at their property.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But you'll. You'll work. I'll pay you $10 an hour, which was pretty generous at the time, for sure. Plus. Plus interest, maybe, like, it was like, $30 interest. So it was pretty high interest rate.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. He gotcha.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Like an illegal interest rate.

[Ken Rusk]

Right. Child labor interest rate. Love it.

[Aaron]

And I remember calling my dad. I remember where I was. I was like, Mr. Siddal offered me this deal. And to my dad's credit, he was like, just. Just so you know, that's not a very good deal.

[Ken Rusk]

But.

[Aaron]

But if you want to take it, you know, it's your right. Take it. And so I took it without question. I called him back up. I'll take the 200 bucks. Collected the 200, and went to work for him that summer. But it was, like, the first time that I'd really, like.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I'd always had allowance and this and that, but it was the first time where I'd really connected the dots of, like, wow, I wanted this. I just worked and I got it.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then not only did I go up there, and then I started to accumulate more. I paid off my debt, and then he paid me after that. So I came home with a wad of cash.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

That I spent on my aquarium as well. Of course. Yeah. Every dollar I made for. Yeah. Six years when.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Those things are so tricky to do. I have one. They're so tricky.

[Aaron]

Oh, it's. It is the stupidest hobby.

[Ken Rusk]

But.

[Aaron]

But it. That. That taught me a lot about how money worked. And I'm really grateful I had the environment that I did in my mom's house, because at my dad's house, that would have never in a million years happened. Like, the stuff I got away with at my mom's house.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

No way. Like, flooding my room every other week.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, for sure.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

And the smell of that.

[Aaron]

I didn't have time to do drugs because I was head first in a saltwater aquarium.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

And It's Arizona, so it's 115 degrees out. My mom will not let the house be below 80 degrees, so it's like Florida in my room.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, my God. And that salt water, when it splashes around, it leaves. Oh.

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah. It was. It was. It was a mess. But. But it was. It was. Yeah. I just. It was really important, like, foundational life lesson, and just, like, the more you work, the more you get, the more you can do well.

[Ken Rusk]

And the other thing that. That I remember vividly, I can remember this like it was yesterday. I had. I saved up money, and I bought a 1976 Monte Carlo. And it. It was so cool. It had swivel bucket seats, and I had the trim rings pile. I mean, I loved on this car. It was like. I worked at a gas station, and I looked at this car. I just stared at. Loved it. And one day I decided I wanted to leave the gas station. I went to work for a landscaper. And so we went out, and I love landscaping. I love. You know, because we got to work on these big, big, expensive, wealthy houses. I mean, just beautiful houses. We got to do great projects. And I used to watch the billing. Okay. So I'd see, you know, tree, tree, tree. Labor, labor, labor, Right. And I knew what I was making, and I knew what he was charging for me. Right. And I thought there's a pretty cool disparity there, Right? Sure. So on the weekends, I would do my own jobs. I do side jobs for my dad, friends. And I'll never forget, I had a bunch of mulch bags in the trunk of my car, and I dropped them off at this house, and I had two guys working there that were friends of mine, and I was paying them five bucks an hour, and they were loving it. Loving it. But I was charging 10 bucks an hour, right. Because that's. That was the rate. So here I am at another job making money, and over there, I'm making 10 bucks an hour with my two buddies who were happy as clams to make five.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Ken Rusk]

But I was charging 10, and I was like, wow, that's genius.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Wait a minute.

[Ken Rusk]

So if you can. If you can pour jet fuel on that and just multiply that over and over again, what could that look like? And so that got me into this entrepreneur thing, is the way to go. Controlling your own input, output, quality of your output, your day, your time, your schedule, your financial gain. I was like, wow. Yeah, that's. For me.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's. It's. I think it's the coolest game in the world for sure. And it's, it's, I think it's way cooler than anything because you can play it your whole life.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so it's like, yeah, sports is pretty cool, but I mean, I'm 31, so if I was a professional athlete at this point, I'd be cooked, man. And, and whereas, like, I'm just getting going when it comes to business and, and life and, and every year I just get better because I have more life experience, I've learned more lessons, I'm a better leader. So it's just, for me, it's, and I'm looking at it with rose colored glasses because some years have been just terrible.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, believe me.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you've been there. Anybody in business, anybody's been there. I feel like most everybody in some way has had just, just terrible. That's life. But yeah, it's only gotten better. I think it's only gotten more fun. And even, even on some of the worst days, I walk out of this office and I'm walking to my car and I'm like, I can't believe I get to do this. Like, how cool is this? This is just, this is just amazing.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, when you get to wake up and this is one of the things that I talk to my staff about all the time, you know, because we have, it's a small business, but we have a lot of entrepreneurs that surround us. When you get to wake up and say, I have the choice today of doing this or this or that or this or that, I have the choice of going to influence his talent level. I have the choice of checking on this particular quality issue. I have the choice of finding some new talent. I have, I get to make my own decisions. And they all say what you just said. How cool is it that we get to decide our own destiny? And then when you, when you add that they are connected to the growth. Right. Even before the esop, they were connected to the growth by just bonus structures. Yeah. And they were, they were like, so, so we can do all this and then we can share in that pot. And I'm like, yeah, that's where it's all. I can't do this myself. I don't want to do it myself. I'm not living the 80 hour a week entrepreneur game where, you know, I've got early onset diabetes. I can't remember my kid's birthday. And I mean, I'm a hero because I worked 80 hours a week. No, I'm not doing that. I'm going to share as much as I can in the hope of that sharing will bring back amazing growth. And you said something earlier that I want to make sure that we get back to when your individual team players goals, when they align in timeframe with the corporate goals. Now you're talking about momentum. Now you're talking about synergy. And now get out of the way. So if, again, if you can get. If you can get people to understand that I'm chasing something within your company and the company's chasing something too, and those two things help each other, you're gonna have results like you've never seen in your life.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And for our company. For our company, it's. It's really cool because this is the first year we've been able to actually offer a bonus program based on revenue goal and up profitability goal.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

Just money in, money out.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

If we hit these two metrics of these numbers.

[Ken Rusk]

You got it.

[Aaron]

That means full bonus.

[Ken Rusk]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And it's half in cash, half in stock with the company.

[Ken Rusk]

Love it.

[Aaron]

And we haven't really seen the benefit of it yet, because I think everybody needs to get it one year, and then I think, oh, for sure. It'll start to kick in like, holy shit, I just got a $5,000 check at Christmas.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Okay. Yeah, I like this. Let's do more. But for me, it's. It's one of the most exciting things that we've been able to do, because I know that that's how we line those two things up.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, hold a brochure for a new F250 in your hand, but then sit in the F250 and tell me, what's the difference? So, yeah, when you promise something. And this happened with an esop, because with our. It takes a very long time to get an ESOP started. There's a, like, four companies involved in two law firms, and it's just forever. So when you're talking about it to your people, you don't. You don't really get to put a piece of paper in their hand for 18 months, two years. So they start to go, is this thing even real? I mean, it's a natural reaction. But now that they're seeing, wow, our share price is this. I have this many shares, and if I do these types of things, you know, sell more, spend less, God forbid we do both, you know, that raises my share price. Now they're in. Wow, this is awesome. And that compared to. In conjunction with the 401k, you know, you're making millionaires out of People in the future. And once they start to own that, yeah, that's where some serious momentum comes from.

[Aaron]

It's really cool. How are you? How are. So new book. How are you counseling business owners then? And leaders?

[Ken Rusk]

Well, first off, the first thing that I talk about is there are probably ten very simple steps. We call them plug and plays that you can do in your business right now. Most of them you could do in the first two weeks. Some of them you could do this afternoon.

[Aaron]

What's one that you could do this afternoon?

[Ken Rusk]

Turn on the music. Okay. Turn on the music. And don't turn on annoying music. There's so many songs out there that

[Aaron]

are just so literally turn on music.

[Ken Rusk]

You're right there, you're improving. If you can get someone to tap their toe while they're working, versus is just this library of quietness, the creation of your mind. There's whole studies on this about the creativity and the juices flowing and how much happier people are if they're humming along to something or whatever. And we even have lists of songs to avoid that are just obnoxious. You know, I can see four miles and oh my God, it's just bad. And. And there's other songs that are like, you want to play these or have a playlist or involve your people in creating their own playlists. So now the culture just changes a little bit. The sights, the sounds, the smells, the color. I mean, look behind you. You have these, you have color in this room. Very important. It is. And you've got texture, the brick. And yet there's. The brick coincides with the modern lights, the contemporary lights. It's just awesome. And so these are simple things that you can do. And, you know, some of them are more visual related, like getting people to see what they want their future to look like and to post those things. But we give them just 10 simple ideas that it's, it's. It's like culture for dummies. In fact, we're calling it. We're calling it rock stars and rainmakers. If you build it, they will come. And it's just what most companies don't realize is their culture is killing their future. Tom Brady's and their future, you know, Aaron judges and the future rock stars of their company. Their own culture is killing it because people will come into these places and go, I don't want to work in this place.

[Aaron]

Well, and there's a lot of places out there that kind of suck.

[Ken Rusk]

They do. Oh, heck, yeah.

[Aaron]

That I think. I mean, it's like, I respect what you guys have done, but I. You couldn't pay me enough to work here. Right. I have that thought a lot.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

A lot.

[Ken Rusk]

And if somebody were to ask you why, you'd probably rip off a laundry list of things very quickly. Right?

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

So we try to reverse those things or get people thinking in a different way. And these things aren't expensive either, by the way. I mean, the things we're talking about are things that you can do easily, but also when it comes to the growth part of it. Okay, so you have a company that does 10 million bucks right now. Okay. Let's just say if you told your staff, okay, if you get to 15 million or even 12, I'm going to share some of that 2 million with you. Have you spent any money?

[Aaron]

No, that's actually exactly what we've done this year.

[Ken Rusk]

You've not. Oh, really? I was. I was just guessing, but, yeah, well,

[Aaron]

numbers are a little bit different, but I mean, honestly, not that much different.

[Ken Rusk]

But the point is, is you haven't spent a nickel.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

You're. You're giving away money you don't have yet. So how is that costing you anything? Sure. And when you. When you look at it in those terms, people like, well, holy cow, I could give away a pretty generous bonus plan that. You're Right. Because you don't have it yet. And when it comes in, it's. There. It is.

[Aaron]

Like Randy's brilliance is. Yeah. He doesn't cap the bonus plan. So it's like this is. This is the number for 100%. Here's the two numbers.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Beyond that, it goes.

[Ken Rusk]

It goes.

[Aaron]

We just. We can just run the. Run the score up.

[Ken Rusk]

Goes by percentage. Yes.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the more. The more we run it up, the more you get, the more cash in the bank we have as a business, the better off the business does. Next year makes everybody more money. It's, again, it's the coolest thing.

[Ken Rusk]

Well, so, you know, people ask me for proof. Oh, well, you know, you're telling us this. How does it work for you? Well, when I got people involved in their own stock like you have, and their bonus programs, so they said, well, Ken, you gave us essentially half of the company. How do we make our half worth what the whole was? Mm, I don't know. You tell me. Well, we need more revenue. Okay. How do we do that? We're landlocked within our certain counties. Well, let's get more counties. Okay. So we opened satellite offices. So we went from one to four offices, and Now, Aaron, there's a good chance we're gonna do three times what we've ever done before. Okay. They, these, these are kit, not kids, these are young people that are coming up with these ideas and the technology behind it and, you know, the CRMs and the lead generation things and that I never knew about. Okay. The social medias and all these new programs that they can do to try to attract that revenue and to grow these companies. So now they're out there building this, they're going to do three times what I ever imagined that we could do. And so, yeah, there's proof in the power of unleashing entrepreneurial spirit within the people that you already have while you're looking for more of them, because you're going to get people that are going to give you ideas that you're like, oh, shit, I didn't even think about that. That's pretty cool. Let's go do that. Yeah, and if, if they feel like they can come to you with an idea. Yeah, let's go, let's rock and roll. But otherwise, if you don't have that type of, like, atmosphere, people are just gonna, Friday, Friday, Friday, baby. That's all I'm gonna do.

[Aaron]

How do you. One other thing before we move on to the field, though. In the office, one thing I like to do is have a picture at your desk. At least one. Family, friends. Oh, yeah, whatever it is. And then just something personal. Your desk.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, I don't, I don't want this to look like Wells Fargo.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Okay. I don't want it to be a doctor's office.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Let's have a little bit of character. Yeah. And something. Let's make it a little bit unique, like I should know. It's your desk. Give me something.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Now pair that up with walking down the hallway and having all these timed pathways on the board, one of which is theirs. And there's like a synergy there that you'll.

[Aaron]

How do you do this at the field level? Because the field's a different animal. It is and it isn't. It's all human beings.

[Ken Rusk]

But yeah, I mean, they, they, they still, you know, the good news for us is we get to see most people every night. Okay. Every morning and every night. So there's still that connection to, you know, what am I chasing and what is everybody else chasing? And how are they celebrating me? And how am I celebrating them? So every, every office that we have has one of these boards on it, and there's a, there's a person, one of the things that we recognized. You know, people ask us, well, what's the first thing you do when you open a satellite office? I go, well, I hire an HR person who doubles as the chief cool officer.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Ken Rusk]

And they go, what's a chief cool officer? That's the person who does all the things that we talk about in the book to create an atmosphere that attracts people. They're the birthday celebrators and they're the flower buyers and they're the lunch on Friday people, and they're the music people and they're the, you know, the, the bonus structure people. They're the chief cool officer for that company because they need to protract the culture that we've created in small town Toledo and put it into these other satellite cities. And they know if you combine an HR person with a chief cool officer title, they know that they only want to bring in people that are going to fit that bill. So they're not going to hire, you know, these stooges that come in and just fill chairs. They're going to hire people that they know can be part of their future. And why wouldn't you want that? Versus just hiring people that, you know, revolving door. And you're going through people in time and money. And so the chief cool officer is a very important position out in the field to make sure that these things are continually happening even if you're not standing there watching.

[Aaron]

Interesting. It's all, it's a lot to think about. Like I, I'm sitting here thinking, I'm like, yeah, I could do a better job of this. Yeah, I could do that. It's, it's. But it's pretty simple. It is like you're not, you're not explaining anything all that complicated.

[Ken Rusk]

Not. I'm really not. It's like I said, it's culture for dummies. If I could have called it culture for dummies, I would have.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

Because when, when you look at all these things, most of them are either simple math or simple sensory things. Caring about people. I mean, that's been around for, since humans have been around. So translating. And here's, I think, here's one of the essential connections here, Aaron. So if you think of a person there in a typical 24 hour period, and this is just typical. It's not exact. Typically in a 24 hour period, they're sleeping eight hours, they're working eight hours, and they're doing something else for eight hours. Okay. Now you don't really care about how they sleep, although you Want people to be healthy. Obviously, you care about what they do at your office, obviously, because you're hiring them to do something. But what are they doing in that other eight hours? Are you asking the question? Are they, Are they runners? Are they. Are they, you know, painters? Are they. Do they help people? I mean, what do they do? What are their hobbies? What are their goals? Like you said, learning about. I want to hire the whole person. I don't want to hire just one third of them. So, you know, if I don't know intimately what their world is about off work, then I'm doing myself, my company, and them a disservice. So if you think about hiring the whole person, you know, you're gonna look at it a whole different way, because now you want people, again, that are actively selfishly chasing something within your organization. You want them working for themselves first and you second, because you're both going to win that way.

[Aaron]

And also you want people that are, I guess, making themselves better for sure. What are you doing outside of work? Are you just sitting around?

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Are you making yourself better? Are you trying to improve the world around you? Like, I think that also tells. Tells you a lot about somebody, and

[Ken Rusk]

I can tell you that is the role of the HR person, because they have to connect that person they hire with this cool culture they're trying to build. And part of that cool culture is, are you improving yourself? Yourself? Okay. If. If you're going to come work for us, you're going to get the life that you want, within reason. Obviously, you're going to be a better person for working for us. That we're going to help you in. As. As a partnership. We're going to do this together.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but it's a. It's a partnership. Like, listen, I'm gonna put my hand out, but you've got to grab on to it.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you've got to do your damn part, too. And. And it's.

[Ken Rusk]

It.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you have to do both. And I think employers make the mistake of thinking that, well, they're gonna reach out first, and then if they do, I do. It's like, nah, that's not how it works. You have to reach out first.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And hope that they're gonna grab on. And hopefully you can be patient with them, because sometimes it takes some people longer than others. But if that doesn't happen, that's also

[Ken Rusk]

an issue you have to examine. I look at all these things as though they're vehicles. Okay. If you're giving your employee a vehicle to drive around in. What do you want them driving? I mean, do you want them driving an old beat up rusty jalopy? Do you want him driving a Bugatti? I mean, the Bugatti is your culture. So put them in something that they're gonna go, wow, this is a, this is a place where I can see myself getting what I want for myself with and through this company, helping the company win at the same time. Therein lies the loyalty. Therein lies the longevity. Therein lies the productivity. Therein lies the synergy and because of it, the momentum.

[Aaron]

Thought to think about. I'm sitting here like, just kind of like, I need to think about this. I need to chew on it a little bit.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I wasn't, I wasn't expecting sitting down today and talking about pictures and drawings, but I'm like, that's really good.

[Ken Rusk]

It's really simple and it works. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah. And you've seen it so many times over, right? I don't, I don't need you to prove it. It's like you're, you've done this enough to know that it works.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. And that's, that's why I'm excited about the book because I've had a lot of people say, okay, Ken, you've created the right person individually. How do we attract that person?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

And so I'm trying to answer that call.

[Aaron]

But that's, I think, and that's the root, like to tie it back to even where we began. I. And I've had this conversation now, like the fifth time this week. Everybody's saying workforce development, workforce development, workforce development. I think it all comes back to leadership. And I've reshaped my whole message. Like at Dirt World last year, I was talking about teams, companies, and then I'm like, wait a minute, I am missing the plot here. It's all about the quality of leaders.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And this is, this is the responsibility of the next generation of builders within America is on the current leadership of the industry, of course. And the reality is we're just not good enough. We're just, we're just not good enough. We're not competing in today's labor market. And we're, we're using the term workforce shortage as almost an excuse to just the blames over there. It's something out of my control.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

I can't do anything about it. Poor me. Just. All these people just suck, man. This next generation, they just suck. Like, I was the one that raised them, but I won't talk about that.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

They're just I can't do anything about it.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

It's like really like that, that's where, that's, that's where we're leaving it. Like, no, it's, it's, it's you. It's like, it's the guy, the mirror, that's whose responsibility it is. And either get on with it or get out of the way. Like, I don't see another way around this.

[Ken Rusk]

So I have two friends that are both in a construction industry. And I mean, I have a lot of friends in that, in that world, but two particular. And both of them say, can't hire anybody. Nobody wants to work. Can't hire anybody. And I've been hearing this for years. And so finally I said, you know, you're right. You can't hire anybody. Okay. However, if you look at the corner of Central Avenue in McChord in January, I noticed that there were people working at Chick Fil? A, standing in plastic phone booths outside in the freezing cold, taking orders for chicken sandwiches. How are they doing it? This kid's standing in a plastic phone booth costume in the rain, taking orders for chicken sandwiches in cold weather. How's he doing it? How's that company doing it? And you're not.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

You could, you could, you could make the case that your job is better than that one.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

So to your point. No. Yeah. You know, I can't hire anyone. You're right, you can't. But you need to change you. You don't need to change the job, the pay. You don't need to change anything. You need to change you.

[Aaron]

I actually think Chick Fil? A unravels that whole argument completely quick because it's like that's a very high turnover environment.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

It's not like a dynamic job in January especially.

[Ken Rusk]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

They're hiring 17, 18, 19 year olds for oftentimes temporary work.

[Ken Rusk]

Not sticking around, standing in a plastic phone booth, walking around with a tablet

[Aaron]

in their hand saying, my pleasure.

[Ken Rusk]

Saying, my pleasure. It's. And so I look at that and I say, okay, should we do a little self examination here maybe? Because I don't think that the population of people in the workforce is really all that bad. I think you can expose bad by who you are, but someone's getting it done.

[Aaron]

I just think, I think they're different. And I also think the up and coming generation is a product of the environment of the country.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

And I do think in a lot of ways we haven't been as we haven't been living up to our values.

[Ken Rusk]

Our right.

[Aaron]

What was laid out as the foundation of this country, I think we've upheld in some ways, and I think we've almost spit in the face of in other ways. And it requires constant effort, constant work. It's. It's like a garden. You've got to be constantly pruning it for it to turn into something beautiful.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think in a lot of ways, we've just, like, stopped pruning and watering parts of the garden, and now we're upset because it doesn't look very good. Well, that's what happens.

[Ken Rusk]

It used to be in an interview, and this is, like, plain as day. It used to be in an interview, I would put it on the paper, and the next day there'd be 15 people in my foyer. Right now there's three. And when they come in, they might sit across the desk from you and lean back in their chair and go, dude, what's in it for me to work here? Now you have two choices at that, because this kid just drove by 15 other help wanted signs on the way to your place, which means he's got choices. Deal with that. Tough. It's the way of the world. You can either get really chapped at that and say, well, who are you to ask me that? Or you could say, well, you know what, young man or a young lady, Let me tell you what's in it for you to work here. And then you put out thing. Because they're used to social media immediateness, okay? They're used to solving their problems immediately. When I was younger and I wanted to do a book report on the Sioux Indians, I had to go to the library and get out an encyclopedia and look at it now. Sioux Indians, hey, tell me about the Sioux. Boom. It's right there on their phone. Instant gratification. So you have a different type of mindset now, but you can still solve that riddle by saying, well, let me tell you, when it's what you know, what's in it for you to work here? This, this, this, this, this, this, and this. And then they're going, wow. And then you look back at them and you say, well, let me ask you this, though. Why are you working to begin with? Like, what's in it? What's in it for you to work? Why are you working? Well, what do you mean? I need a job. A job for what? Well, I need to make money. Okay? Money for what? Well, I got to pay my bills. Okay, so tell me about the bills, okay? What's beyond the bills? And that's when they look at you like, wow, dude, no one else has ever asked me that question. You've just separated yourself from every other hirer, okay. Every other potential employer in the neighborhood, because you've taken from minute one, you've taken a concern or a care about what their future looks like for them. They're walking away going, wow, this guy really cares about me. This place feels good. It's energetic. It smells good. There's a lot. Lots of color. People are happy. They're walking around. There's music, I hear. I think people are winning here. And now this guy asks me what my future is all about. That's pretty cool. So, yeah, if you don't ask those questions, you're going to be the guy who says, I can't find anybody who wants to work. I can't. And nobody wants to work. Well, right. Because all you said was, here's your shovel, here's your gloves, here's your time clock, and we're working overtime today. I mean, right? So you got to get a little bit beyond that. And he. And again, he looks at me, goes, oh, rusk you Only. I'm no Jesus. I'm no genius. Anyone can do this, okay? You just have to take the time to switch where your brain's going from. How dare you ask me those questions. To. Well, let me tell you what you have by working here.

[Aaron]

It's really good. Yeah. And it's almost like it's funny. The irony of it is they're accusing the next generation of being entitled while they're being entitled.

[Ken Rusk]

Right?

[Aaron]

I. Yeah, I'm entitled to the workforce. It's like, Right. No, you're not.

[Ken Rusk]

You've never been. Yeah, yeah. You just got lucky for 40 years that we. That there was more workers than jobs.

[Aaron]

Exactly. The labor market. Yeah, yeah. Allowed you to just get people right out. Thinking about it. Right now, you have to think and work for it.

[Ken Rusk]

That's a great point. You've actually been entitled. Accusing someone, being entitled. Yeah, yeah, that works.

[Aaron]

That's the irony.

[Ken Rusk]

I might use that. I might steal that one, Aaron. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Aaron]

Okay, so to distill things into two core messages here. The core message that you really want to get to blue collar people, to tradespeople. What is. What is that? That core message that you're trying to get to these individuals?

[Ken Rusk]

First off, you know, screw the stigma, okay? There is so much opportunity out there right now. Everybody knows that. Everyone talks about it, but the money is crazy good. It's not going away anytime soon. You're not going to have this thing shift so quickly that all of a sudden you're going to have an overabundance of electricians and plumbers. It's just not going to happen. You're going to ride this way for a very long time. Consider one of these jobs. You get to control your input, your output, the quality of your, of your work. You get to control your day, your time and your schedule and your financial gain. And you get to build the life that you want. So from a blue collar perspective, I mean even, especially women, God, there's so much opportunity for women to do this as well. So consider it. Do it. You'll be so glad you did. Working for yourself or working even within a company, but kind of for yourself. No other better way to do it.

[Aaron]

It is interesting how you explain it as working for yourself too, because it's, it is a decentralized industry. You're not, if you're out in the field, you're not going in the office every day.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

Your boss isn't there.

[Ken Rusk]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

Most of the time.

[Ken Rusk]

Right.

[Aaron]

You really are having to manage yourself.

[Ken Rusk]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

And dictate the work and how it gets done and why it gets done that way. And making sure you're holding the standard and making sure you're there on time.

[Ken Rusk]

Sure.

[Aaron]

Like it's. Sure. Sometimes it is crew based, but a lot of it is you're on your own, which I think is a lot of people really enjoy.

[Ken Rusk]

Oh for sure.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. And that's probably why they, the numbers are coming back that 35% of office workers like their job, but 65% of blue collar workers like their job, happy with their work life. I mean, yes, those numbers don't lie.

[Aaron]

What's. And what's the core message then to leadership business owners?

[Ken Rusk]

I think you really have to look at the product you're offering people. I think you need to walk into your own front door for the first time and go, what am I selling here? What's, what's happening here? What does this look like, smell like, feel like, taste like, touch? Like, do people walk into my office and go, wow, there's winners here? Are people winning here? Or is this just another dungeon that I gotta punch a clock at? So you really gotta sharpen your game because there's so much competition for human beings right now. If you don't have party central going on at your place. And I don't mean that literally, but you know what I'm saying, If you don't have something where people walk in and go, wow, this is an electric atmosphere. I want to work here.

[Aaron]

It has to have a feeling. And there's different feelings for different people, different companies.

[Ken Rusk]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

But it has to feel like something There has to. You can almost, you can put your hands around it in a way. You can almost reach out and grab it.

[Ken Rusk]

That's why I say sight, sound, smell, touch, feel. Because there's a lot of different ways you can alter that. But they all have to be clicking. And even in our new office building, we're building with really high ceilings and these really funky, I mean, just so it's interesting. And a big kitchen area with a big area where people can engage, which

[Aaron]

is a great move.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah, it's just a big, interesting place to be. And I just think, yeah, you're fighting for an ever shrinking amount of people, so you really got to up your game when it comes to culture. And, you know, there's, it's, it's not that difficult to do. We write about it in Rockstars and Rainmakers and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like plug and play stuff. It's really easy.

[Aaron]

It is interesting though, examining your product. Your company's a product experience, the product from that entry level position.

[Ken Rusk]

You got it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So the, the one book, Blue Collar Cash.

[Ken Rusk]

Mm. New book, Rockstars and Rainmakers coming out. Should be coming out by January.

[Aaron]

By January, yeah. Okay. So you're working on that, right?

[Ken Rusk]

It's all, it's all done. It's an editing now and we're doing cover design right now, which is pretty cool.

[Aaron]

So brilliant. And then you're all over LinkedIn.

[Ken Rusk]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And then you do speak to companies as well?

[Ken Rusk]

We do, yeah. We speak to companies. We, it's. Ours is different. I don't, I don't stand in front of somebody and do an hour long keynote where I hope that I'm saying something interesting.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Ken Rusk]

I query the company and say, tell me what you want me to talk about. Meaning what, what are the things that you feel are happening within your company that you think I can, I can benefit you from? And with Barranco, we did like a three hour thing where we had, we had, we had Glenn at the end building peanut butter and jelly sandwiches as fast as he could build them. It was so funny. It was awesome. And he was so such a player, man. He was, him and his vice president. I think that it was so much fun because that revolved around charity and involving, you know, your, your people's time, talent and treasure. It was amazing story. But yeah. So ours is more of an immersive thing. If you want to hear from us, we want to know what you want us to talk about. Because that way I'm giving you a product that you're going to get. I'm going to deliver you a product that you're going to find value in. So. Yeah, that's how we do it.

[Aaron]

Excellent. Well, thanks for coming. It was really nice to catch up again.

[Ken Rusk]

Yeah. Always a pleasure to see you, Aaron. It's great to see what you're doing here. So thanks for having me. It.