A (2:03)

Yeah, yeah.

B (2:04)

In the early days you're. Who is this guy? Sky.

A (2:07)

Like I think everybody was asking that question, who is this guy? Yeah. And then I started messing about with Keaton Turner in the early days.

B (2:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (2:17)

The rest is history.

B (2:18)

Rest is history.

A (2:19)

What were you doing before crushing or no?

B (2:21)

So I, I never ran a crusher in my life until I bought one, which is ridiculous.

A (2:26)

Why, Why'd you buy a crusher?

B (2:28)

I'm a sucker for punishment. What can I say?

A (2:30)

So you are like legit?

B (2:31)

Yeah. No, no, for sure. Uh huh. Yeah. My family would agree with that. Like all through my life that's just been the way. But started out.

A (2:41)

What were you doing?

B (2:42)

Well, I started out in the family business, which is like natural stone fabricating. So you take like a big block of stone.

A (2:48)

Okay.

B (2:49)

And you turn it into something beautiful for the face of a Building. So through that was my introduction to quarrying. Cause we would go to the quarries all the time, and I would see guys, like, working in the quarries. Big equipment, crushing equipment, whatever. I was like, that's really cool. That's a lot more cool than what I'm doing working for my dad. I was like, I want to do that someday. Something in that line, like mining or quarrying. Yeah, Fast forward. Quit working for the family business, and then I went to work for a civil contractor locally and just doing. Yeah, whatever. Street work or commercial. A lot of commercial buildings, stuff like that. Built a lot of schools. That was a lot of fun, just operating. Ran a crew, Was there for a couple years. Ended up running a crew doing pipe work and small jobs, stuff like that. I gotcha. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. And then from there, I just saw an opportunity. I kept hearing guys talk about the fact that it's hard to get crushing guys. I was like, I had the itch to start a business. I thought it was going to be a dirt business. But I looked around and I see everybody with a mini ax and a skid steer doing this. And I'm like, I don't want to do that.

A (4:01)

Yeah.

B (4:01)

Yeah. Because everybody's doing it. Like, I had some good friends that were starting to do it. Like, I don't want to compete against those guys. It's too competitive. So, like, let's try something a little bit different. Right? So I don't know how far you want me to go in this story right now.

A (4:15)

Keep going.

B (4:16)

Like, a guy that I was working with at the time, he was starting his excavating company. And so I called him up and I was like, hey, I know we're working together. We kind of get along. Like, I got this idea to start crushing, and he's like, oh, hey, I got the same idea. Like, all right. This must be a match made in heaven. Like, let's do business together. And then through a chain of events, another guy got involved. So we got a third partner, and he was like the financial investor. And then myself and the other business partner. So there's three of us that got started in 2019.

A (4:52)

No kidding. With. With just probably one crusher.

B (4:55)

With one crusher. We didn't even own an excavator at the time.

A (4:59)

Just.

B (4:59)

Just rented.

A (5:02)

Because, like, with an excavation business, you know, skid steer, you can get a used one for 50 grand at most. You can get one for pretty. Pretty cheap. Whereas a crusher, they're a lot more expensive. Yeah, like, a lot more Expensive. Like how much is a crusher?

B (5:20)

The ones we were.

A (5:20)

Like a decent one.

B (5:21)

Yeah, you can get a decent one for a million bucks.

A (5:24)

For a million bucks?

B (5:25)

Yeah.

A (5:25)

So like. Yeah, but like no bells and whistles.

B (5:28)

Like that's bare bones.

A (5:29)

Some.

B (5:29)

Some.

A (5:30)

Maybe some hours on it.

B (5:31)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's.

A (5:33)

It's an expensive.

B (5:35)

And then you need a. You need an excavator and you need a loader and you need conveyors and tools and the amount of fuel burns.

A (5:42)

And then it tries to kill itself every day.

B (5:45)

Every day, Multiple times a day.

A (5:50)

I mean, it's. Yeah, it's a machine that's trying to eat itself.

B (5:52)

It's. Yeah, it does a good job of that too.

A (5:54)

Does a great job at that. Yeah. No matter what the brand, like, it's. They just eat themselves. Those. And like grinders or like tub grinders are just so aggressive as well. They just want to destroy themselves. So had your other partners had any crushing experience as well?

B (6:12)

No.

A (6:13)

Really?

B (6:14)

None of us? No. We were all farm boys. Bunch of farm boys from southern Ontario. So we had. I call it stupid muscle.

A (6:24)

Yeah. So you go get a crusher.

B (6:25)

Yeah.

A (6:26)

Become a crushing company.

B (6:28)

Yeah. We didn't even know if we were a crushing company or not. But really we have a crusher. So let's go find stuff to crush.

A (6:36)

So the crusher came before the stuff to crush.

B (6:39)

Yeah, we found a little bit of small work before we got the crusher.

A (6:43)

Okay.

B (6:45)

So my one business partner had an. He's got an excavating business. So like through his excavating business that he was starting, he found some work for like small barn demolitions and stuff like that.

A (6:55)

I see.

B (6:55)

So he had a few jobs lined up and then. Yeah, from there just kind of. We picked up some more stuff and there's.

A (7:03)

To explain to people, there's. There's like different types of crushing. You've got like a quarry will have crushing, but it's a permanent plant and it's just dedicated to crush the rock out of the hole to make aggregate. So now it's. Now you're crushing for asphalt. We say asphalt. Foreigners say asphalt. Yeah, they say asphalt. I know. So it's that same black top. Australians say it the same way. Ash. With like asphalt. Yeah, with an H. But it's like I don't see the H anywhere.

B (7:32)

But see, I try to spell it with H. Yeah, it doesn't work.

A (7:35)

Well, it would make sense with an H. You should. You should just modify the spelling.

B (7:40)

And then for yours.

A (7:41)

Concrete plants.

B (7:42)

Yeah. Ready Mix producers. Yep, yep. Those are our primary customers at this point.

A (7:48)

Okay.

B (7:49)

Because they're, you know, an asphalt plant, they blend a certain amount of recycled asphalt back into the new mixes. Depends on what part of the road they're doing. Yeah, the base. Yeah. You know, the top coat, they can't do that typically, but the base coat, they're adding in recycles. We come in, crush certain amount of broken asphalt stuff they hauling in from roads or parking lots are ripping up, crush it up into a pile. And then they've often got concrete there, too, like curb, sidewalk, demolition, waste that gets trucked into their yards, whatever it is. And then so we're just like. We're the guy in the middle of the process. You know, the customer owns the pile. So it's not like we're selling material. We're just producing. We're just turning waste into something that they can then sell is like road base or base for a parking lot or anything like that. Or. Sure. Back into the plant.

A (8:41)

But you. And you within this business, too, you hop around a lot. And so they'll have a pile. You know, they'll accumulate a pile, and then they'll have you mow in.

B (8:50)

Yep.

A (8:50)

Chew through the pile, and then you go to the next one. Is that most of the time, how it works?

B (8:55)

Yeah, yeah. Like, a lot of these piles are. They're never ending. Right. So, like, they just tell you come in, crush this many tons, and then we leave. Or if they sell more, we stay longer. Sure. It's kind of like, I compare it to snow removal or lawn mowing. It's like, when do you mow the lawn? Well, when the grass grows.

A (9:14)

Yeah.

B (9:15)

Right. So the grass keeps growing, the pile keeps growing bigger.

A (9:17)

Yeah.

B (9:18)

So we keep coming back as they sell material.

A (9:20)

Are you still crushing like that in the winter as well? Because there's not. There's obviously not road work in the winter.

B (9:26)

Yeah, Winter is a little bit more. A little trickier, for sure. Stay busy. You got to get a little creative. And that's where we have some. We have some other types of clients as well that are like, maybe it's a contractor, a civil contractor that has a concrete pile in his backyard.

A (9:45)

Yeah.

B (9:45)

And he crushes once a year in the winter. And so we give them a bit of a deal.

A (9:51)

I see.

B (9:51)

Hey, we'll come in, clean up your pile, and then he picks away at it for the rest of the year.

A (9:55)

I see. Is there. Do you do site work as well? Because I know that in the United States, that's blown up over the past few years is crushing on site.

B (10:05)

Yeah. We don't do. It's surprising how little of that we do. I see it is. Yeah. Yeah. There's been some big jobs in Ontario recently, like in the last five years. But like for doing that. But yeah, we've not been. We've not been a part of that too much. So it's. I don't know. I think the day is coming. I do. I think that that's going to happen more. More and more. But it takes the right project to make it work.

A (10:34)

It does. Yeah. They're like, what's happened in this. I think it's happened so much in the States over the past five years especially is because you have these. These mega sites being developed.

B (10:46)

Yeah. You guys got some big sites, some.

A (10:48)

Crazy big sites on properties that were again, like five years ago, just entirely uneconomical. There was just like, no one's ever going to build there because it's going to cost. Like you're going to have to put like a $10 billion building there to make it make sense. And then AI came about and was like, I think we can put a $10 billion building there. And then. And then it's just made these pieces of land make sense. But they require like the amount of rock they have on them and the amount of aggregate they need is just mind. I mean, you'll have million plus ton jobs on. On single sites.

B (11:25)

Yeah.

A (11:25)

It's. So they'll mow in these big crushing spreads.

B (11:27)

Yeah.

A (11:28)

And just like even the amount of crushing some of these civil contractors do. I know how much some of them do the tonnage they do per year. They don't publicize it, but it's like.

B (11:36)

You'Re doing what, like millions of tons.

A (11:40)

Sometimes tens of millions of tons.

B (11:41)

Tens of millions of tons.

A (11:43)

It's crazy. I mean, across the United States, not on single jobs typically, but the tonnage they're putting through some of these plants in a temporary fashion is just wild. We just had a video last week about the dam project.

B (11:57)

Yeah. Seen that.

A (11:58)

Yeah.

B (11:58)

Great video.

A (11:59)

It was. Thank you. Jack did it. But they. A lot of it wasn't crushed. They were able to take a lot of the material for the dam just straight out of the face. But they had to. They had to crush and produce, I mean, millions of tons of material. And in all different. All different gradations. And so they had. I mean, it was a monster crushing plant that they set up on site.

B (12:24)

Giant.

A (12:25)

I wonder how many acres the. Even just the yard area was because of all the. Just all the material they had to stack up.

B (12:31)

Yeah, I've seen that.

A (12:32)

Crazy.

B (12:33)

That's crazy. See, it takes the right site for that, though. Like, one thing, in the area that we're in, in southern Ontario, a lot of our dirt, it's clay, right?

A (12:43)

Yeah.

B (12:43)

It's not actually bedrock. So in Toronto, there's some bedrock, but it's not very good. Go to northern Ontario or eastern Ontario, it's rock everywhere.

A (12:52)

I see.

B (12:52)

So you get more of that on site crushing aspect when you're talking natural rock.

A (12:56)

So there's. Yeah, there's not even the sites for.

B (12:58)

It in our area. There's not many. There's like pockets, but small pockets. Yeah.

A (13:04)

Now when you were getting going, I guess this whole thing was just like, figure it out. Like, there's not how to crush for dummies anywhere. You can't just go read a book or. Did you buy an online course?

B (13:16)

No. Off of LinkedIn.

A (13:23)

Yeah. Zero to crushing company in 90 days.

B (13:27)

We're gonna start selling that soon.

A (13:29)

Yeah. I mean, like, what was the first? You know, 2019, you get a crusher. What was like the first year?

B (13:35)

Like, the first year was. It was crazy. Like, you buy a crusher and you're like, dang, like, now I got to make this payment because, you know, I'm not somebody special with all this money sitting in the bank that I can just make this payment from if I have to. It's like, I've got to make this thing work. So the first year, when I came on in August, when I quit my job, we had done a couple jobs leading up to that point. A couple small jobs, nothing much. We didn't have much work lined up in August either.

A (14:06)

But with the jobs you were doing, like on Saturdays or Sundays or whatever.

B (14:09)

Yeah, pretty much on the weekend. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. We try to slip one in here and there.

A (14:14)

Okay. And then you go full bore in August.

B (14:16)

Yeah, I went full bore in August. And I just remember going and talking to my dad, like the first day that I was working for myself. And I was like, hey, like, where do I get started finding work? He's like, oh, maybe. Maybe you can run an ad somewhere. Right? So I was like, all right. We got a local newspaper. Like, this is probably a terrible idea, but for like $25, I ran an ad in a paper that goes out to a lot of farmers. And at the time we were targeting farmers with old barns. And my phone just started ringing off the hook with guys wanting their bank barns ripped down. Really cleaned up. Yep. Ripped down, crush it.

A (14:54)

Huh.

B (14:54)

And move on to the next thing.

A (14:55)

No kidding.

B (14:56)

Yeah. So, like, I was like, well, they wanted it done for a certain price. And I was like, the price point in my mind was tough. I was like, how am I supposed to do it for that price? Mmm. Like, I don't. I know how much this crusher costs, so I feel like it's worth this much an hour. But they were wanting it for, obviously, a different price, cheaper. And so finally, I was just like. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna go do a couple jobs, and if. If I lose ten grand in this job, it's a lot. It's a lesson. But at least I was doing something and trying. Mm. So I just started basically saying, like, what do you need this done for? Okay, that's my price.

A (15:34)

Really?

B (15:34)

Yeah. I wouldn't recommend maybe that to. To most people. Like, at some point, you just got to get your feet wet. Sure. Because I had no idea, like, I didn't know how to price a job.

A (15:46)

Well, a lot of people ask me, they. They go off and they're going to start their own thing, and they're trying to figure out how to price stuff, and it's like, I don't really know what to tell them other than. You just figure it out.

B (15:59)

Yeah.

A (15:59)

Like, you just go do the work. You take your best guess, you know, you, like, pull out a piece of paper and a pen and, like, write down. All right, the payment is this, you know, divided by how many days, working days of the month or whatever it is. And then, all right, it, you know, drinks this much fuel, and I need a.

B (16:16)

But how much fuel does it actually drink?

A (16:17)

Oh, you know, hopefully you get it right. Yeah, you just take. But you take.

B (16:21)

You.

A (16:21)

You know, you. You take guesses, and you divide it, and. All right, there's my operating cost. And how many hours do I think this is going to take? All right, 17. And then you multiply it out, and there's your bid, and then you go do it, and it turns out, well, shit, I didn't account for xyz, so. So forgot. Forgot. Like, you know, these giant considerations, like, like, for example, how I get it to the job, like mobilization. For example, you leave out mobilization or demobilization. Like, shit. So then. But then the next time, you're not going to leave out mobilization. You're going to be like, all right, I forgot. Yeah, that I had to get it there. So I'm not going to do that again. And just the more data you get. In theory, the better you get and the better the business does because it's more accurate.

B (17:10)

Yeah. 100%. Big mistake I made early on is not keeping track of that data for way too long.

A (17:15)

Oh, yeah, a lot of people do that.

B (17:17)

That was terrible. I had a. No, I had notebooks, multiple plural. And, like, people would call me and I would lose their numbers. Like, what an idiot.

A (17:28)

Well, but, but, but, like, in your defense, you are so busy working, like, you're, you're the labor force.

B (17:36)

Yeah.

A (17:37)

For the business. So you don't have time to run the business. You don't have time for business development. You don't have time for invoicing. You don't have time, like, for planning ahead on maintenance or whatever it is. Like, you. You're probably just doing the damn job.

B (17:51)

Oh, yeah, 100%. I'm like, I still remember doing the first invoice. I'm like, I've never done an invoice in my life. Like, do I charge sales tax on this or not? Yeah, I have no idea.

A (18:01)

Like, yeah, no, I, I. My first invoice, I just googled invoice template and I found one, and then I, I made my own and I put like a, you know, instead of invoice 001. Oh, yeah, I did invoice 143.

B (18:18)

Oh, yeah.

A (18:18)

I didn't know 0143 or whatever. I made up a number which, you.

B (18:22)

Know, we've done a lot of jobs.

A (18:24)

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's. It's, you know, you look back on, you're like, what an idiot. But that's just like this. I feel like the stuff everybody does in the early days, you just making it up.

B (18:34)

Yeah, no, we literally did the same with. I remember the guy that was helping me, he's like, what invoice number do you want? Because it probably shouldn't just be, like, number one.

A (18:42)

Yeah.

B (18:42)

I'm like, yeah, let's just pick a random number. Yes.

A (18:45)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (18:45)

I'm not going to admit that this is my first job.

A (18:47)

No. And everybody knows it, but, like, kind of.

B (18:50)

Oh, they knew it. Oh, yeah. Like, in hindsight, it's like they all knew that I had no clue what I was doing.

A (18:55)

Yeah, that's. And so beyond that, do you have, like, a lesson or were there lessons learned in that first year that have really stuck with you?

B (19:04)

Oh, there's a lot of lessons learned. There's so many things. Like, the partnership was. Turned out to be really challenging in the first year. Ran to some big challenges with Our partnership and one of the partners was bought out before the year was over.

A (19:19)

Okay.

B (19:20)

It's like, six months in, we bought one of the guys out already.

A (19:24)

Sure.

B (19:24)

And my closest friend in the business at the time. So that was a challenge, I think. But again, you know, we're just. We didn't know what we're up to. We're just out there winging it. And so when you're winging it, I mean, sometimes that's the collateral damage that comes with not knowing what you're doing.

A (19:40)

Yeah.

B (19:41)

So I don't know if I ever regrets about it. It's just part of learning. Right. I don't.

A (19:46)

Like, I. I think regretting it does you a huge disservice.

B (19:51)

Yeah.

A (19:52)

It's just. I don't think. It's like, I've thought about this a lot, and there's like, I've made mistakes, too, where it's like, you still feel shame over it. Like, man, that was just so dumb. But. But at the same time, I think you have to be kind to yourself because it's like, well, at the time, I was doing my best. It wasn't like I was deliberately trying to screw people over or screw this up or put this person in this position or. Or do this to this customer. I wasn't trying to do that. I was legitimately doing my best. And, yes, I was wildly ignorant, but it's like, I didn't have any other options. You can't go again. Read the book on how to make crushing business. So, yeah.

B (20:32)

And I know you can't. And, like, something I see a lot of. I've had a lot of friends that come to me, like, hey, I want to start this business. Like, how do I do it? Right? And they're stressing out over the details of it. I'm like, just shut up and start your business. Like, I don't have much patience for this. Like, oh, we need, like, a plan. We need to, like, read all these books. I'm just like, I'll just shut up and go start something. Like, so that was, like, my mentality going into it is like, hey, shut up. Like, watch me do this. And that got me to a certain point, you know, that arrogance got me somewhere, and it got me some good places. Blake, in hindsight, you know? Yeah. Don't, you know, get some advice? Listen to some advice.

A (21:13)

Yeah. I, like, just do it well, but, like, winging. It's important, but, yeah, it's not a sustainable business strategy.

B (21:19)

Yeah.

A (21:20)

It just. It's not. Well, it's not even like a sustainable life strategy, I feel like.

B (21:25)

No. And my. Yeah, you can talk to my wife about that later. She'll be happy to share how hard that was through that season.

A (21:33)

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B (22:45)

We had our first child, Eden. I'm gonna say she was three months, three to six months old. Maybe six months old when I started the business. Woof.

A (22:56)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (22:58)

We were gonna start the business before we had Eden, but then I was like, no, no, we gotta wait till we at least have her because we were pregnant at the time. Sure. So yeah, we had a newborn baby and I'm starting this business and I'm working like literally 20 hours a day. I'm sure, like no joke, 20 hours a day, six days a week. I'm never home, gone all the time. And that's. Turns out that's really hard on a marriage.

A (23:23)

Yeah, yeah.

B (23:23)

It's hard to be a dad husband when you're gone all the time.

A (23:28)

It is. But then it's also like you're fighting for your life over here in business, I'm sure.

B (23:33)

Yeah.

A (23:34)

Like I know how that is where it is. Just like every day is a bar fight, like literally. I mean it's just, it just doesn't stop.

B (23:46)

No.

A (23:46)

Like I was talking to somebody the other day, I'm like, man, I would just love like a day off. Like that would be so nice to just like truly.

B (23:56)

A day off?

A (23:56)

Yeah, just have a day off where I could just not think about anything. I Could go play like video games, just do something, something dumb. Yeah, yeah. A 24 hour period. It just doesn't work that way though. Yeah, it's tough. But I mean that's probably, that's probably pretty motivating. At the same time.

B (24:16)

It was super motivating. Because you know what, when you got a wife and a child at home, I mean, you're in it. Like I had a house, a mortgage payment. Like I had reasons to be at work and I didn't have money in the bank. Like, wasn't like I had, you know, I didn't even have 10 grand in the bank at the time. When I started this business, I had like nothing. Right. We're pretty newly married and just in that season of life and you're all in. But I, I think like in hindsight that's, you have to be like, especially to start a business like this, you got to be like 110 in. Like I'm gonna do or die this and we're gonna do whatever it takes. Like I'll work 24 hours a day if that's what it takes to make sure that there's money there for the payment and whatnot. Right?

A (25:02)

Yeah, there. And you can tell who's 100% and who's not. But it doesn't work if you're not 100%. No, I just don't think it does. Like, I haven't seen it work in any kind of, at any kind of scale. It's, it's just there, there's a like very famous story about Cortez and how he went to go conquer, you know, one of the greatest civilizations in the world with like a few hundred guys from, from Spain I believe it was. He shows up and they're not just not very motivated. They're like, ah, this, let's go back. And like we don't want to do this. Like we're, you know, our wives are back at.

B (25:42)

Good.

A (25:42)

Why are we doing this? So then and again it's, it's kind of true, kind of a tale. He goes and, and, and ruins all the ships.

B (25:53)

So they can't leave.

A (25:54)

So they can't leave. And it's been known as like this death ground. Whereas you either do it or you die. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of power in that. And I've tried to create that. I have thought like, if I had a young family at home, would I have, would I have more of that even? Like if I was going home to a family to Just be like, I just need to push even more. I feel like I've done a good job as a single male, but I feel like you can only do so much when it's just you. Whereas, like, when you come home and there's like this, this fragile life form that is wholly dependent upon you and then your, your wife who just created this life form. Life form over a nine month period and is now like nursing it into being a human being, you come home to that every night and they're wholly dependent upon your ability to keep the roof over them. It's probably as motivating as it gets.

B (26:59)

Yes.

A (26:59)

Or at least you'd hope it would be.

B (27:00)

Oh, yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And it's like, well, what's the future look like for my child? Right. Like, yeah, I want to build a future here.

A (27:09)

Yeah.

B (27:09)

I don't want to just like, make a living.

A (27:12)

Sure.

B (27:12)

You know, because I, I kind of just stayed at my day job. It was great, you know, but I was dying there. It was like dying to start a business. You know, you hear they, they say you shouldn't start a business till you can't breathe. And I was like, that was the case. I was like, I couldn't breathe at work. Like, all I was doing at work. It was partly, I mean, you're partly to blame because I think I was listening to. I'm not sure if you'd start your podcast at that point yet. When did you start your podcast?

A (27:37)

20.

B (27:37)

20. 2020.

A (27:38)

Yeah.

B (27:39)

So it was before your podcast, but like, it was kind of in the early days where there's a few of you guys out there sharing like, hey, this is what we're starting.

A (27:46)

Yeah, Keaton.

B (27:47)

And yeah, guys like Keaton. I was listening to anything I could get my hands on. And it was like, man, I got to go do something. Like, I gotta go build something. I don't know why, but I gotta do it. Like, it's in me.

A (27:59)

You know, I've been thinking a lot about that how, like, humans are just very rational and you think you need an answer for everything, but there's just sometimes there's just not an answer. Like, sometimes you just know you have to do something, but you can't explain it.

B (28:19)

Yeah.

A (28:20)

And that's perfectly okay.

B (28:22)

Yeah.

A (28:22)

Like, it doesn't need an explanation and that doesn't make sense to people on the outside, but as long as it makes sense to you and you're okay with that, it checks out just fine. And I've, like, I've really started to like, it's been recent, probably the past few weeks even. Just settle in with that concept of, like, you don't need to have a reason for everything, but if you know something needs to be done, you need to do something or go in a certain direction. That's enough. Like, and it's not. It's not even achievable to know everything or to have a reason for every feeling you have or understand every feeling you have. But, like, again, you don't need to understand it. You just need to act upon it.

B (29:05)

Yeah.

A (29:05)

Which is, again, it makes no sense to people on the outside.

B (29:09)

Yeah.

A (29:09)

Like, if I was explaining that to my mom, she'd be like, what are you talking about?

B (29:12)

That's.

A (29:12)

That's. That's crazy. And I'm saying that in a very kind way. Like, because it is kind of insane. But I think that's also necessary. You just need to listen.

B (29:22)

Yeah. Especially starting a business.

A (29:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (29:26)

Because people will tell you it's a terrible idea. There's a lot of reasons that starting a business are a terrible idea. Right.

A (29:31)

Like, and it is a terrible idea.

B (29:34)

Can confirm.

A (29:35)

Right? Yeah. Like, they're right.

B (29:38)

The best part. They're actually right. Dance?

A (29:41)

Yes.

B (29:42)

My mom was right.

A (29:43)

Yeah.

B (29:43)

Yeah.

A (29:43)

It's brutal. It's brutal.

B (29:45)

Oh, man.

A (29:46)

Like, like. But really from a quality of life perspective, it's not a very good quality of life. Like, it's just not. There's most people my age, they have a much better quality of life than I do now. I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade my life for anybody else's life. But just from, like, just a quality of life standpoint, a lot of people I know, they've got houses now. They've got a nice job. They've. They've been at that job for sometimes years. So they're starting to, like, get a little further up. Yeah. Make some more money. You know, they're putting money away for retirement. They've got a, you know, nice car. They're married, maybe a kid or two. Like, and then they can. They can take a day off.

B (30:28)

Yeah.

A (30:28)

They've got vacation time. Like, it's pretty. It's pretty good. It's pretty solid. Um, but when you're working 20 hours a day, that doesn't work. It doesn't.

B (30:38)

No, no. And, like, it took me a long time to learn what you just said there. That quality of life as a business owner is not actually that good. Because, like, it's not. Honestly, when I started out, I didn't believe that I was like, ah, it's fine. Like, I grew up with my dad owning a couple businesses, and so I knew, I knew what it could be like. Like, I sure saw the bad side of it. I was well aware. But until you're in it, you don't realize. And even now, like, man, six years later, like, you know, there's times where you're, you're still up at night. It's like, am I seriously up at night with this freaking issue? Yeah, like six years later.

A (31:13)

Oh, that was.

B (31:14)

Still got this freaking problem in the company.

A (31:16)

That was last, that was last night for me. I was. Or the night before? It was the night before. I was just, I've just been like this year. So I'm like, quitting is not an option. Like, I'm either gonna do this or I will die. Like, is honestly how I have it framed in my head. And it sounds dramatic, but it's like, but, but I'm serious. It's either it will get done or I will die trying to do it. And there's just nothing in between. But, and so, but I, but I say that to then say this year is the first year where, where I'm just like, I've thought about quitting.

B (31:56)

Yeah.

A (31:56)

But not like, legitimately, but it's just been like, thoughts. Yeah. But it's just been like, it's like what you said. I'm, I'm, you know, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't been in the game that long, but it's like, I started in 2018 and before that, you know, engineering school for a few years. And so, I mean, I really started to go down this path in 2013. Since 2013, I have just been all fucking in on one path. And so that's, you know, 12 years, which again, is not a ton of time, but it's enough at our age.

B (32:29)

That's a lot of time, though.

A (32:30)

It is a lot of time. Yes. Yeah. How old are you?

B (32:33)

I am 29.

A (32:34)

You're 29. Okay.

B (32:35)

Shit.

A (32:35)

I didn't know. Wow, Good for you.

B (32:36)

How old are you?

A (32:37)

I'm 30.

B (32:37)

Okay.

A (32:38)

But yeah, so, so 12 years. All in on something. And it's like, I don't, I don't, you know, I'm still going, I still live above somebody's garage.

B (32:49)

Yeah.

A (32:49)

And I, I, I'm very grateful. I'm so grateful for what I have. But then at the same time, I'm just like.

B (32:58)

Like I thought I was gonna be further, maybe.

A (33:02)

Yeah. Like, yeah.

B (33:03)

10,000 square foot mansion.

A (33:04)

Yeah.

B (33:05)

Promised me on those YouTube videos.

A (33:06)

Well, not even that, but it's just like. I don't know, like, I. Some grass would be nice. That's mine. Like. Like, it's. It's just. You're just, like, every day, just. Just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. And you're like, I hope I have something to show for. Yeah, I do. But it's. It is just. It's just fucking tiring.

B (33:31)

Sometimes it is, right? Like, I own a piece of grass. Well, me in the bank, right? We're in a partnership. On my house.

A (33:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. Yeah, the bank.

B (33:39)

Bank owns it. But I. I wake up and I look out across the beautiful lawn and I'm like, you know, this is beautiful, but you know how fast I could lose this?

A (33:49)

Oh, yeah.

B (33:50)

Like, if one of my guys makes some bad decision and he kills his co worker and they come after me and I didn't have my. Like, I missed something. Yeah. And now I lose my house.

A (34:02)

Yeah.

B (34:02)

Right. Like, those are the kind of thoughts that I have when I wake up and I see something beautiful. And people tell me, like, you should congratulate yourself and where you are. And I'm like, no, because it's so fleeting still.

A (34:14)

Sure.

B (34:14)

Like, it's not even close to being the real deal yet. Well.

A (34:18)

And. And it's so far from what you see. Like, I think that's what's frustrating to me, too, is, like, I see the potential here.

B (34:25)

Yes.

A (34:26)

I know the potential. And I'm so far from it.

B (34:29)

Yeah.

A (34:29)

And that's what frustrates me. It's like, yes, it's cool. But, like, this is fucking nothing.

B (34:34)

Like, yeah. It's like, so do I literally have to keep doing this for 10 more years to maybe get somewhere? Like.

A (34:40)

And, like, really? Yes. Like, yes is the answer.

B (34:43)

Yeah.

A (34:44)

And like. And again, I'm all in.

B (34:46)

It's like, that's great. Right?

A (34:47)

I'm all in. And I would. I'll never complain about it either. I've noticed this too. Like, a lot of guys in business, they'll almost come off. Like they're complaining, and it's like, the hardships.

B (34:59)

Yeah.

A (34:59)

And it's like, I get it. It's hard. Or complaining. Especially about people, which I really don't like.

B (35:05)

Yeah.

A (35:06)

But it's like, I understand where you're coming from, but you. You chose this. You signed up for this, and if you don't want it, you can fucking leave.

B (35:16)

Like, that's.

A (35:17)

It's. That's just part of the. That's the game. Like, you're complaining about the game, you can't come. That's. That is the game, man. Like, it's. It's. Whatever you do, it still comes down to people, and if you don't like that, it ain't for you.

B (35:31)

Yeah. And I. Yeah, well, that's just business ownership, right? Like, I've had to learn that because there's been seasons where I've had a hard time almost accepting some of the challenges that I've faced. It's like. Like, I don't want to go through this right now, but it's like, no, dude, like, you chose this. Like, yeah, you signed up for this.

A (35:49)

Yeah.

B (35:50)

You signed up for the hardships. You could have stayed at your day job. And. And like, honestly, I'd probably have more money in the bank account today if I'd have stayed at my day job.

A (35:58)

Dude, I would be making so much money had I just said, you know what? I'm just gonna take some pictures and I'm gonna make some videos and I'm gonna be happy with it. Boy, would I be. I would be putting it. I'd be stacking it up right now. I mean, stacking it up.

B (36:14)

So what is it that drove you to not just keep doing that, though, right? Like, what is that in us? That. Because it's in an entrepreneur. I think it's like, I've had opportunities too, where it's like, if I'd have just taken. Done that thing, it would actually be so much easier than what I'm doing today. Like, choosing to grow our business.

A (36:31)

Yeah.

B (36:31)

Why am I choosing to grow this? Like, this is so hard.

A (36:34)

I can only speak on my behalf. And for me, I've tried to explain this to people, and I can't explain it because it's. It's. It's. Again, it's not rational. It's not something I can explain. It's just like, I, for whatever reason, have been put on this path, and that's it. Like, I can go push against it and not fulfill my obligation, or I can go do it to the best of my abilities, and I have to do it to the best of my abilities. I can't explain why. I can't explain why it's me, but it is me. I am here to do this, and I have to do this at all costs. And again, it doesn't make sense. And that's why I'm single. Like, really, that. Because I've been so fucking obsessed with this. This one thing. But at the same time, it makes perfect sense to me. It's Like, I don't have a choice. And people, they'll be like, no, you do. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

B (37:34)

Yeah.

A (37:34)

No, no, no, no. Like, I don't have a choice. I don't have a choice. I have to do this. And maybe that's wildly arrogant, maybe that's wildly misguided, whatever it is, but it's.

B (37:48)

I don't think so.

A (37:49)

It's just. It's. So if I'm certain about one thing in life, it's that. And I don't know why. I can't explain it.

B (37:57)

Yeah, well, I get that. Because, like, you know what? I called a guy one day. I was having a bad day, probably a bad week or a bad month, actually, in business, and I. I called up a guy. I was like, man, do you ever wake up in the morning and wonder, ask yourself why the hell you keep crushing rock? Like, this sucks. And he's like, no, you can't question that. Like, you've been put here for a reason.

A (38:19)

Yeah.

B (38:19)

And you can't question that. I was like, you know what? You're right. Like, for me, I believe in God. God's put me on this earth to crush rocks and to change people's lives through that, so I got to do that.

A (38:30)

Yeah.

B (38:30)

And it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be fun, but nobody cares. Just do it. Like, that's my calling. Like, so I get that. Like, because people have asked me, like, why. Why do you work so much? Like, why do you do the crazy things you do sometimes? Like, man, you're on a site, crushers broke down, you're there until midnight, and people don't get it. Like, my friends don't always get it. Like, you know, you skip out on friends events or whatever. Like, instead of golfing, I'm laying underneath the crusher, or I'm hammering out of bed late at night or, yeah, something. You know, something. Right. And then, you know, a lot of people struggle to understand that from, like, hey, this is my calling in life right now, is to build this business at all cost. And I don't know why. But you know what? We're gonna have a lot of fun doing it in the meantime. Yeah. And I love it.

A (39:18)

Like, it's, like, fun in a different way, though. Like, it doesn't. Again, that doesn't totally make sense to people. It's not, like, fun in a traditional sense. But if you look at. Like, I've thought about this a lot, and I've probably talked about it. But if you look at portraits of anybody that's really changed the world or if you look at any pictures of them even like, like Lincoln for example.

B (39:39)

Yep.

A (39:40)

You don't see Lincoln like stoked, like Martin Luther King Jr. You don't see him like just like just fired up, like just having a great time or like Gandhi. Like he's just like just living it up with the boys. Like they all look kind of fucking miserable. They all look just tired.

B (39:57)

They do look haggard.

A (39:58)

They look tired, tired, tired, tired. Because they've been just all in on something.

B (40:05)

Yeah.

A (40:06)

And it's exhausting. But. But then at the same time they've changed the world as a result. Mm In.

B (40:14)

And not everybody can do that. Nobody can change the world.

A (40:17)

And not everybody should know. And not everybody should.

B (40:20)

Like that's not trying. You should stop.

A (40:22)

I think a lot of people, I think, I think a lot of people. I just had a conversation today with some guy. He called me up, he's like, man, I'm just, I'm just struggling with this, like just why am I doing all this? And, and, and if I, if I just paired this back and went and did this, what I really enjoy, I'd have a better quality of life. And I'm sitting here, I'm like, yeah, you would like that to me. Sounds like the better answer. Like go be with your kids. Go do what you enjoy. Go make the money you need and get rid of the stress. Like that makes perfect sense like that. And it's all those people that really keep the world moving like within your business in the grand scheme of things, you don't really do shit anymore like you got it off the ground, but it's these hard working individuals running each spread and making it happen. And then all of the hard working people generating the material and hauling that material to you to make that happen. And then all the hardworking people using that material to build the world around us. Like those are all the people really making it happen. It's the same here at this company. Any company. Like you need all those people, they make the world, the world. They make society, society. They, they're the ones that create everything. And then it's just the dumb dumbs like us that, that organize people sometimes that, that might see what others can't from a like a vision standpoint or what the opportun or I'm willing to, you know, go sacrifice this to go take this risk that other people shouldn't. Like I think everybody has their place, but there's a lot of people over here on this side of the fence, and it's like, you shouldn't be here. It's not good for you.

B (42:05)

Yeah.

A (42:05)

Like, it's. And I'm not saying that out of. Out of arrogance at all. No, I'm like. I'm saying that I've, like, a deep sense of caring. Like, listen, it's not. It's just not great over here. Like, yeah, yeah.

B (42:18)

I've had. I've had a lot of, like, my friends come to me, and they're like, hey, I want to start a business. I'm like, hey, don't. Like, yes. You're not ready for it. Because I see the way you live your life. You're nowhere ready for it. You're not ready to make the sacrifice. You think I'm insane. If you think I'm insane, then don't do it.

A (42:36)

Yeah.

B (42:37)

Because I'm actually. I'm not insane. Perfectly normal. I just, you know, got this vision and this drive and Same. Obviously, you've got that, too, right? Like, that. Just that drive to go do something different. Yeah. Be okay with that. But do you ever struggle with the idea of, like, you know, when you started the business, you were the man. It was like, aaron Witt is the man. And then as time goes on, you bring a bunch of people in the company and you wake up and it's like, I'm not really the man here anymore. Like, this is my business, but it's just full of a bunch of people that I've hired, and they're doing. You know, they're killing it. They're doing a great job. Like, where's my spot in this? Like, if you ever. I don't know if you ever struggle with that, but I.

A (43:21)

I've struggled with it, but in. In the way you wouldn't expect. Like, I've almost been two hands off at some certain points in time. Like, too aloof, which has really, really come at a cost. And. And not to say, like. But I've always been really trusting.

B (43:42)

Yeah.

A (43:43)

Which I think is really great. But you also. I've realized you have to be careful with that in a way. Like, you can't just trust everything to take care of itself, if that makes sense. Like, you still have to mold and drive it and steer and guide and care and, like, nurture. There's still. There's still a lot you have to do, and I'm still learning how to do that. But I'm like, this year, I've been, in a way, like, coming back into the business. And trying to find my position within the business. But then at the same time, this year has been really good for me because Randy and I. I gave the CEO position to Randy intent very intentionally because it's like he's just way better at the business than me. So let him do the business. He's. He's just better. He's just way better. And. And maybe I could figure it out if I. If I went all in on this, but that's not where I should be right now. Like, I should be out on the road. I should be running around the world. I should be spending time on, you know, checking out crushing spreads and in tunnels and at mines. Like, that's what I should be doing. That's the most valuable place for me. And so I'm gonna do that to the best of my abilities while nurturing the business, but then allowing other people to lead us as we go.

B (45:08)

Yeah.

A (45:08)

Is how it's been in my head.

B (45:10)

Yep. So sense, I've.

A (45:13)

I think I've been. I've been on the other side of things. I think people struggle, like they're too far in. In a way.

B (45:21)

Yeah.

A (45:21)

Too hands on. Whereas I've been too hands off. And I think. I think it's rooted in confidence, too. Like. Like years ago. It's years ago now, which is crazy. But, man, we just. We just royally some stuff up. Just. Just royally some stuff up, man.

B (45:40)

Welcome to the club.

A (45:41)

Yeah. And. But I. I had spent, like, I'd spent time building my confidence, and I thought it was legitimate confidence. And some of it was. But some of it was also false confidence. And then that came about and it just messed me up for a few years. And I.

B (45:59)

Confidence a bit.

A (46:00)

Yeah. But like, in a foundational way. And I retreated in a sense.

B (46:04)

Yeah.

A (46:06)

And it's taken me years to then dig out of that hole personally. And that's the crazy thing about business, too, is, like, it's very tied to you.

B (46:15)

Yeah.

A (46:16)

If you're not taking care of your shit or if you're not doing what you should be doing, it has a cost across the business, which is crazy.

B (46:25)

Yeah. Yeah. You got to take care of yourself, which is. Which is hard.

A (46:29)

Yeah. Where are you at on this?

B (46:31)

On the spectrum of, like, being involved in the business?

A (46:34)

Yeah. How many people are at the company?

B (46:36)

There's 16 or 17 of us.

A (46:38)

And they're all spread out.

B (46:40)

Yeah. We've got two of those people are at the office. So I've got like, you know, an accounting lady part time, then an admin Lady.

A (46:47)

Yeah.

B (46:47)

Which controller? And then an operations guy. So I got an operations guy. It's been a year and a half of having an operations guy. Before that I was it. That was a big move of like, okay, so now I gotta let go of all of this stuff and let my ops guy start hiring people. Let him start telling guys where they're going next, where they're going next week.

A (47:12)

How's that, how's that gone for you?

B (47:14)

Oh, it's been amazing. It's been a complete game changer.

A (47:16)

Yeah.

B (47:17)

It's been a huge weight off my shoulder. It's been, it's been great. But it's. At times it's hard. I cuz I find myself sometimes and some of my guys will listen to this and laugh at me. Right. But like sometimes I wake up at home and I'm like, I'm waking up on a Monday morning. Like my guys, they're already at work producing.

A (47:37)

Yes.

B (47:37)

And I'm waking up. Yeah. Like I'm an idiot. What am I doing here? Like, I should be like grinding it right now. But I was like, no, like that's not the work that I need to do right now. Like my version of grinding it out right now is different. It's like picking up the phone, trying to get that meeting, picking up the phone, making sure we've got money in the bank, whatever it is. Right. Like dealing with more root things in the business.

A (48:02)

Yeah.

B (48:02)

And that's been tough because sometimes it's easy. You try not to find your identity in the business, like they say you shouldn't. The business shouldn't be who you are. But it's like it is. Yeah, but that in so many ways.

A (48:16)

A lot of times it's people that, when they're saying that they haven't done.

B (48:19)

It before, it's true.

A (48:21)

So. It's so true.

B (48:25)

Yeah. I think LinkedIn guys, it's a lot.

A (48:26)

Of LinkedIn guys saying that. And it's like you want to think, like that's great advice, but it's like that's not how it works.

B (48:33)

I know. Because it's like this is what I'm building with every minute of my life, basically. It just is who I am.

A (48:39)

Well, it has to be personal.

B (48:42)

Yeah. Like that's the heart and soul of being a small business.

A (48:46)

Yes.

B (48:46)

Like, that's why I'm not a 10,000 person business because like, you know, this, this is who I am. It is the Jared show, it's the Aaron Show. Like, like it is at the end of the day.

A (48:57)

Yeah. Like What. What I found the hardest, but the most important too, is that as you remove yourself day to day, like you were saying, you know, making calls, this and that. I think the hardest thing is doing nothing is thinking, is listening, is watching, is creating space to then just maybe have an idea like that. Just that space of intentional nothingness is really hard.

B (49:32)

That's super hard.

A (49:33)

But that's where that's the best stuff right there too. Like, I've been really. I've been thinking lately about just. Just being better at listening more.

B (49:44)

Mm.

A (49:44)

Like, it's like I've got to just listen better and. And not listen to other people, but just listen to what's going on, listen to where I am, and then make those more, like, gut type decisions.

B (49:58)

Yeah, yeah.

A (49:59)

But you have to have room for it.

B (50:01)

You gotta have the mental capacity for that, right? Like, you gotta unlock it.

A (50:06)

Yeah, yeah.

B (50:07)

Like, recently I was kind of getting in this mental funk at work of, like, there's these problems that we're trying to deal with, and I'm like, man, we're just not making the progress on them. And I just got to the point where I was like, okay, I just got a. One of my guys was just like, dude, you got to take like a few days off work. And I was like, no, look, I'm gonna be here, fix this problem. I'm stay here. I'm not gonna leave. And then at the end of the day, I was like, you know what? I'm not in tomorrow. You're right. I'm not coming in tomorrow. Yeah, I was like. So I went home, talked to my wife. I'm like, you know, this is really hard for me not to go to work tomorrow. Look, I want to go in and keep working on this. And I took a day off and I was like, by the end of the day, I was like, I wasn't off work at all today yet. Like, I didn't mentally shut off at all. At the end of that day. I was like, okay, now I can actually shut off, shut this off, I think, for a little bit. So I took the rest of the week off, took three days off back to back, and I ended up working a little bit. But, like, yeah, it was a time where I could actually reflect. Just working around my property, reflecting on what we've done and, like, where we're trying to go and why we're trying to get there. And at the end of it, I was like, you know what? That was time well spent.

A (51:18)

Yeah.

B (51:18)

Like, I wasn't at work, but, you know, I had time to finally think about some of these things from a different perspective. Not just boots on the ground every day, trudging straight into the problems. Right. It's like, let's just take a step back, detach from the situation for a bit, from the business for a bit. What's actually at play here.

A (51:38)

It's like, it's. And it sounds so obvious, but I mean, and especially life is just busy. I have to. And I haven't done it in a while, which really bums me out. But I have. I usually go to Savannah.

B (51:49)

Yeah.

A (51:49)

That's my place.

B (51:50)

About that.

A (51:51)

Yeah. And. And it takes me. I have to. I. I usually. I try to schedule five days is like what it really takes. Because it takes a day or two to just unwind, to just wind down. Yeah. And I'm almost. When I first get there, it's. It's almost. I'm almost anxious in a way.

B (52:09)

Yeah.

A (52:09)

And it's hard not to. Just not to. You know, I don't listen to anything. I don't listen to podcasts. I don't.

B (52:18)

I don't.

A (52:18)

I just do a lot of walking and I don't have meetings, Nothing. Like, I intentionally force myself to just be. And it's super uncomfortable for a while. But then you get over that and you're just like.

B (52:32)

Deep breath.

A (52:32)

Yeah. And you're just like. I'll just be sitting on a park bench, just looking at life around me, feeling the bench. You know, just like the sound of, like kids playing. It's just an amazing sound. And then, you know, the birds running around and like, it's just life happening around you that's happening around you all the time. But you just. You're always so busy. You're always doing. You're always focused on this, that the next thing that, you know, the next deadline.

B (53:03)

Yeah.

A (53:03)

Yeah. And once. But once you have the time. That's what I love about travel too, is, is I'll have like days within travel now to just. It's cool because when you're somewhere new, it's so novel and so you're really just taking everything in. You're just like, wow, check this.

B (53:21)

Crazy.

A (53:22)

Yeah. And it forces you to just like take life in around you and create space for it. And it sounds dumb, but, boy, is it valuable.

B (53:31)

Yeah.

A (53:32)

Oh, my goodness.

B (53:32)

I just found that even driving down here, that's part of why I wanted to drive here. Right. Like, it's an 11 and a half hour drive for me to get to Nashville. But it's like I just need some time to just, just hit the road. Yeah. And talk to my wife, see what's going on in the rest of the world, like just get a bigger perspective on life.

A (53:50)

Well, and in a great, I mean, in a one year period too, like to have 11 something hours with your wife, just you and her.

B (53:59)

Yeah.

A (54:00)

Is probably an extraordinary rare circumstance.

B (54:03)

Yes.

A (54:04)

At this point.

B (54:07)

Yeah. It's, it's well needed.

A (54:10)

Yeah.

B (54:10)

That is for sure. Right.

A (54:11)

Yeah.

B (54:12)

Because you got to be so intentional just in life in general to make time for the things that are important. Right. Because there's always the next thing to run to.

A (54:20)

Sure.

B (54:20)

Especially in our, in our lifestyle. And, and I enjoy the busy lifestyle, don't get me wrong.

A (54:25)

It's, Yeah.

B (54:25)

A lot of good to it.

A (54:26)

But, well, and, and, and that's what I'm trying to do with the industry and our summit especially. I'm trying to like slow people down a little bit. It's like, I get it, there's all kinds of stuff going on here. But like, I, this is for your, your good. Like I, I, there's a win for me too here. But like this is for you way before it's for me. Like, yeah, like get. If you can't get away for two to three days, that's a problem.

B (54:58)

Yeah. It speaks to something else going on in your business.

A (55:01)

And there's seasons. I get it. But like if that's a consistent thing, there's, there's a problem there, there's like, there's a problem and I'm fine. When someone's like, oh, it's, you know, our fall break and I'm taking the kids or you know, having baby this and that, like, great, that's, that's fantastic. You should be doing that. That's much better than this. But it's like if I don't get a good reason, it's like, well, we're just busy.

B (55:21)

It's like busy is a sloppy word. Come on.

A (55:25)

Come on. And I've been guilty of that too, plenty of times over. But it's like, like we, from an industry level, it's like we need to start sitting down and talking with one another or else we're going to be in the same bullshit year after year after year. And we are in the same bullshit year after year after year.

B (55:45)

Hasn't changed in a while, has it?

A (55:46)

Same conversations. Let's just walk around in circles and it gets a little worse every year, but we're making more money, so let's just keep shoving it in the backseat. Let's not worry about it, but everybody knows it. Everybody's aware, like, there's a bunch of smart people in this world. And let's just. Now let's just talk in circles. Like, at what point are we going to call it a day and say, hey, let's actually start. So where are we going here? Oh, shit. Okay. All right. How do we get there? Oh, all right, let's go.

B (56:17)

Yeah, let's go. Plan.

A (56:19)

And that's. That's happening. But it's like, it needs to happen a little faster because.

B (56:24)

Yeah.

A (56:25)

Things are just faster.

B (56:26)

Happen more.

A (56:26)

Yes. It's just degrading.

B (56:28)

Yeah.

A (56:29)

It's not getting better.

B (56:30)

Yeah.

A (56:30)

The industry is not healthy right now.

B (56:33)

No, it's not. No, no. There's some big problems.

A (56:37)

Some big problems.

B (56:38)

Yeah.

A (56:38)

Yeah.

B (56:38)

And I think in Ontario, at least it's slowed. Like, the works actually slowed down a bunch. And that's really exposing those problems. You know, it's like if you had a problem and now you're hitting a slowdown and that money starts to run out, now what. You know, you couldn't make time when the money was good to slow down and figure out your business problems, your systemic industry problems. Well, now you for sure don't have time for that because you're just fighting for survival.

A (57:07)

Yeah.

B (57:08)

And I think you're gonna see a lot of businesses go out of business. I think so season, and we just saw a big business up our way fold and their massive demolition company. And it's like, man, how did they end up there? But it's like, oh, you know, and you hear. It's like, oh, well, there, there's. They've had these problems for years and it finally bit them.

A (57:28)

Yeah.

B (57:28)

They didn't want to fix it for whatever reason. Right. I don't know the story, but sure, there's always a story. And that could be me, but.

A (57:35)

Or it's just like. Yeah, it's just like some older guy and he's like, I've been doing this for 43 years.

B (57:42)

Yeah.

A (57:43)

I don't got the fight left in me. And that's fine.

B (57:45)

Yeah. Like, hey, you know what? I used to never understand that, but as life goes on, I don't want you. But I actually start to understand that a little bit. Like, some days I'm like, I could totally end up being that old guy that doesn't have fight left in me.

A (57:59)

Yeah.

B (58:00)

I've talked to my dad about this a lot because he's obviously older than me. He's in his 50s and he's been in business for a long time. And sometimes, like, dad, like, why don't you go, like, chase this opportunity? Why don't you go, like, fix that problem in your business? And sometimes he just kind of looks at me. He's like, because, son, I've been doing this for 25, 30 years. Like, sure, have at her butt. If you want to do it, go for it. But me, I don't know, man. Like, yeah, this lawn chair is feeling pretty good right now. And I'm like, I used to kind of resent him for some of that, but now I have a lot more respect for that. I'm like, you know what? I've been doing this for six years. I'm starting to get that a bit more of, like, I understand it.

A (58:43)

Yeah.

B (58:43)

And I'm trying to fight against it because I don't want to become complacent in the problems. But I do understand why people get tired and worn out from dealing with the same bullshit year after year.

A (58:55)

I. I'm in the same boat. I'm starting to understand it more and more. But I. The guys I've really come to respect, there was like a. It was a friend's grandpa, and he was a old, like, just, like, feisty guy. I mean, he's. He was fucking old. Like, 90s, okay. Yeah. But. But he would just go. Every day, would just go. And whenever we would. We'd be packing up to leave for a while, we'd be like, well, we'll see you next time. And he'd always say, like, that's only if I'm still alive. Like. Like he meant it. And he meant it. He was joking about his mortality, which. That, to me is like, that's a guy that has it figured out. Like, that's a guy that has it figured out. If he can. If you can joke about your mortality at the end of life and you're still just going, like, I think that's the coolest thing in the world. The coolest thing in the world. And it's very rare. I've noticed it's extremely rare. And to me, like, the concept of traditional retirement, I think it's terrible.

B (60:09)

I think it's messed up.

A (60:10)

I think it's super messed up.

B (60:11)

Yeah. So once we've gained all this life experience, let's just sit on a couch.

A (60:17)

Let's just hang out. Yeah. And. And I don't know.

B (60:19)

Yeah.

A (60:20)

And so I've watched my dad retire, and he retired a long time ago. Now he's older. He's in his 70s. He retired at like 58, I think it was. So he's been retired for like.

B (60:30)

Yeah, a while.

A (60:30)

Yeah. Well over a decade. But it's just like, you just watch people unwind in not a good way. Because there, there's like that sense of purpose leaves you.

B (60:45)

Yes. A man especially needs that.

A (60:48)

I totally believe it now that I've seen it up close because I'm like, man. And that can change and that probably in a lot of cases should change. Like that sense of purpose. It doesn't have to be the same thing your whole life.

B (60:59)

Exactly. Find like that second career or whatever you want to call it. Right. Like that second purpose.

A (61:04)

Yeah. But if you don't, if you don't have it, boy, oh boy, does it, does it get you. And going back to the industry, what's, what's sad for me right now is that I have the utmost respect for the generation that like the older generation that's built the industry as it is today.

B (61:27)

Yeah.

A (61:29)

But it's like now they have more responsibility than ever. Like, shouldn't you, as the outgoing generation want to leave things better off than you found it?

B (61:40)

Yeah. And pass that knowledge on.

A (61:42)

And pass that knowledge on and ensure the next generation is good to go to. Pick up where you left off.

B (61:48)

Yeah.

A (61:48)

Mentor them and mentor them and care for them and build them up. And some are, there's some great folks out.

B (61:56)

There are some great guys out there for sure.

A (61:58)

Unbelievable folks.

B (61:59)

Yeah.

A (62:00)

But there's a lot of guys on the sideline right now. Or a lot of guys or just. They sell.

B (62:05)

Yeah.

A (62:06)

They take their bags of money like the cartoon, like the big burlap sacks, the money signs on it and the dollars kind of going out top and then they just, they just dip out and it's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Like, enjoy what you've got going. You built it. You. You ground your ass off. I get it. But like, can you help out a little bit here?

B (62:28)

Yes.

A (62:30)

Because we need it.

B (62:31)

Yeah, I need it. Oh, this hits so close to home because, like, I've seen so many guys, they sell out, they run this beautiful privately owned company. Yeah. And they sell it to these massive companies. And like, I don't, you know, I don't hold against massive companies. Like, they're doing what they're doing. Yeah. You know, I'm glad that they can do it. But this mom and pop operation, and when I call it mom and pop, it could be a hundred million dollar business. They could be massive. But then, like you said, they take their bag of cash and the Old boys that were running it, they buy a cottage or a yacht and they chill out there and it's like, hey, there's a whole bunch of guys that still work here that they want to hear from you.

A (63:12)

Yeah.

B (63:12)

How do you do it?

A (63:13)

Yeah. And we, and I don't fault either side for the big companies are doing big company shit. And then again, you go sell your business for a hundred million dollars, like, ball out.

B (63:22)

Oh, I get it. Yeah.

A (63:22)

I'd be balling out too. I'm not good enough to, I'm not, I'm not too good to say. I would love a shitload of money and I could spend a shitload of money. I get. Yes. Yeah. I'm on board with, I'm so on board with it. However, yeah, they just go dip out and it. Like some of the best leaders I know, they've, they've just left and I understand, but I'm sitting here, I'm like, no, no, no, dude, dude, like, we need, like, whatever you did worked really, really, really well. Yeah, you are really good at this. We need what you have. Like, we, we, it's, it's bigger than you, me, this company, that company, this state. Like, this is about the industry and then this is about the future of like society that we're toying with right now. I get that real estate venture. Good. Go put your money somewhere. Fantastic. But like, we need you here. We need you helping to figure this out. Yes. Yeah, we need you. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I sure shit can't do it on my own. You can't do it. Like even, you know, we'll get a thousand plus people, really high quality leaders in one place at the summit. That's not enough. Con Expo is not enough. Like it has to be all in or else it just doesn't work.

B (64:40)

Yeah, we had a, an older gentleman that was working for us. This is just like an example, but an older gentleman was working for us, tons of experience in the industry, and at the end of the day, he quit working for us, which, whatever that happens. But one of the things he said on the way out, he's like, I'm not needed here anymore. And I'm like, where is that bad thought coming from? You are so needed here. Like, you got 35 years of experience doing what we do and you don't think that you're needed. Yeah, like I tried making it clear to you that you're needed, but somehow you let this belief sink into your head of like, I'm not needed. Like, I'm outdated. It's like, dude, you're not outdated. Like, maybe you're not needed. Like, maybe you don't. Maybe you're not the guy that's like boots on the ground anymore. Turning the wrench. Yeah, but like, you're needed as a coach, as a mentor, as, like, tell us how you did it. How did you make it this long in this industry? How do you do it? Because, you know, I don't want to have to relearn everything that you just learned for the last 35 years. And now it kind of felt like, you know, all that walked out the door when he left. And I'm like, you know, yeah, he did. When he was with us, you know, he was good at like, helping the young guys learn the tips and tricks. But it's like you also can't just teach those things overnight. You can't replace 35 years of experience overnight. It's like that's been marinating with him forever. Like he's got the scars, the physical scars on his body to show for that experience. Hey, don't do, don't do this. Because if you do this, you know, nothing drops in your hand. Like you're gonna lose a finger.

A (66:25)

Sure.

B (66:26)

Like, look at my hand missing a finger. You know, like as an example. Right? Yeah. And those are just small things. But there's a lot bigger things in the industry like that. Like, this is happening across the board with older guys where they, they had an age, it seems. And I even witnessed this with my dad a bit where he kind of hit an age and he felt like he wasn't needed anymore. I'm like, now, like, where is that lie coming from? Because you're actually more needed now than ever. Just in a different capacity, in a different way. Like, hopefully when I'm 50, I'm no longer needed, hopefully to run the day to day business. Hopefully I have somebody else that can run the day to day. Yeah. But the business and the industry will need me at that point. Like those 20 years of knowledge, the industry is going to still need that in some form. And it's like, what, what's that look like? I guess, what's it look like to have a second career that's as much successful as the first one, if not more, Even though you're not maybe building something from scratch. Because in construction it's, you know, we're used to building things and when we build it, we see what we built and that's the gratification is, dang, I built that bridge or I crushed that pile of rock. That's the gratification. But I think in your second career, it's got to switch a bit. Like, the gratification maybe isn't like, oh, dang, I just built that high rise. It's like, you got to learn to get gratification from other things.

A (67:52)

Well, and building people at that point.

B (67:54)

Yeah.

A (67:55)

And there's some. There's some really good. Like, I love hanging out with the old guys in this world. Oh, that's great, dude. There's nothing cooler. There's nothing cooler. Like, I've gotten to spend some time like. Like Vaughn Veidt, for example. He comes to my. Yeah, that guy. I mean, the shit he's seen in his life and the stuff he's done and the store, like, holy smokes. He's just got. He's got one hell of a resume and. And he's still around all the time. Like, he's still very engaged in a totally different capacity. He doesn't run the company. He doesn't.

B (68:31)

And he's, like, in his 80s.

A (68:34)

Damn near it. Yeah. I think 70s. And I mean, he's. He's all over the place. I went to a bridge demolition, and it's like, I look over and there's Vaughn out at the bridge demolition, and it's not even close to where he lives. I'm like, this guy gets around, like. But he just. He just loves it. He wants to be out there, and he just has this presence that really means something with. With the crew and with the people out there, too, which I think goes a long ways. And that's what.

B (69:03)

Man.

A (69:03)

Like, that's. That's what I think that's what we need more of. Like, one thing I've.

B (69:10)

I've.

A (69:10)

I've really tried to spend time understanding what makes these great companies great companies. And that's a big part of it is. Is like you said, I mean, you and the business, you're kind of mixed together.

B (69:25)

Yeah.

A (69:25)

And as you get older, as the business gets older, that, like, that. That separation starts to increase further and further. But that's still like the. The seed of it all. That's still the genesis of it.

B (69:37)

Yeah.

A (69:38)

And to still have that around, I think, keeps a business grounded. Like, I feel like Ames is another business. Like, that's, like, that's why Ames is Ames, because they have.

B (69:50)

Larry Ames.

A (69:52)

Well, they have, like, the Ames DNA within the business across the board. Like, they haven't. They haven't lost the Ames DNA, and now there's almost no Ames is involved in it, but it's still very much like that DNA because they were pouring into it up until, up until they were no more like, like, like I mean up until the day Dick Ames died, he was pouring into.

B (70:22)

He was still the man to some extent.

A (70:23)

Yeah. He was still like that, that living legend. He didn't just go off and, and say see ya. Like he was still very visible.

B (70:31)

That's where I think you can go wrong with like all the business shouldn't be. It shouldn't be you. Like the business shouldn't be. Aaron. Yes, but it's like actually I don't know about that. Hold the thought. I think the business is Aaron and it should be and it should be proud of that. Like I've watched Veit as an example. I'm like man, these guys take so much pride in the name of the business and they own that name and they've done something great with that name. Like they're building a legacy and like that's something to be proud of. Like I hope that my business one day has a legacy like that where my kids, you know, whether they work there or not, you know, that doesn't matter to me at this point. Not too worried about that. It's like whether they work there or not, they have like family pride in the business. Like hey, that's the, that's the kip for family business.

A (71:23)

Yeah.

B (71:23)

And like kind of like Ames like you never lose that.

A (71:26)

Well there's business grows and, and you, you can lose it. I mean I've. There's some other big companies within this industry that I think have lost it, that have forgotten what, like what really. Yeah. What made them. And you can tell like there's this, there's this warmth to some companies like like an Ames like a vite, you know, like a sergeant for example. Yeah, yeah. C.W. matthews. Dan was just in here. Like there's a, there's a warmth to these businesses. And then you go to some of these other companies and it's just cold. It's 90 degree corners. It's just like.

B (72:08)

It's like white walls.

A (72:09)

Yes. White walls. Maybe some shades of gray.

B (72:12)

Like very industrial.

A (72:16)

Yeah. There's just not. You can't put your hands around. Just doesn't feel good in a way.

B (72:23)

They'Re almost trying to identify as a, as a large multinational company.

A (72:28)

Yes.

B (72:28)

But it's like you're not actually that.

A (72:30)

Yes.

B (72:30)

Don't try to be that.

A (72:31)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (72:32)

You're missing the mark there.

A (72:33)

And, and I've reflected upon this a lot. Like within construction, it's like, why are we all trying to do that in a way? Because, like, we don't have to do that. Like, it doesn't. I get. Safety is important, but a job site doesn't have to be fucking miserable, you know, like.

B (72:52)

Like, why need 50 flras in a day?

A (72:54)

Yeah, well, yeah. Why are we making it shitty? Like, why are. Why are we. Like, we're doing this to ourselves. It's not even the government coming in and saying, you have to make it shitty. It's like, no, let's make it shitty ourselves.

B (73:05)

Let's actually make this more challenging than what I'm show wants. It's.

A (73:09)

Yes, yes.

B (73:10)

Is that actually saving lives?

A (73:12)

I don't know. I don't know.

B (73:14)

And these companies still have deaths.

A (73:17)

Well, they don't talk about it, though. They don't talk on it.

B (73:20)

They don't want to because they're the.

A (73:21)

Safest company in the world.

B (73:23)

But zero incidents in how many years? Right?

A (73:26)

I.

B (73:26)

How does that work?

A (73:28)

You know, I. But, but it's just like, yeah, why? Why are we making it shitty? Because it doesn't have to be that way. And I've, I've, I've even seen, I've seen big companies where it's not shitty. So then it's like they're doing it.

B (73:42)

On a large scale.

A (73:43)

On a large. On, on a, on sometimes a global scale. It's like, we don't need to do it that way. There's a better way to do it. And I think, I think that's why construction is still such a remarkable industry, is because it does have that humanity to it that a lot of other industries don't have because they're so commoditized and so just giant. Like the automotive world.

B (74:14)

Yeah. And. Yeah. Cause you can't just start a car factory.

A (74:17)

No, no, it's a car factory. Yeah. You don't go to work at General Motors and be like, wow, like, this is great. We're this nimble small business. And like, I'm working for this guy. And like, we're all in it together.

B (74:30)

Mr. GM's right there.

A (74:32)

It doesn't work that way.

B (74:33)

Yeah.

A (74:36)

Construction has that, that family. That, that family feel to it, and I think that's what makes it really special.

B (74:44)

Like, I 100%.

A (74:45)

Like, when I started working in construction, I liked. I wanted to know who I was working for.

B (74:51)

Yeah.

A (74:52)

Like, Rich Pearson would come out to the job sites, that. That's the fucking guy right there. He built this fucking company with his bare hands from the ground up. Like he was back in the day, just fighting it out every day of the week. And now he's this, you know, older guy and he's got his nice cars and he's balling out a little bit, but he's still there every day, coming around. He's still coming around like that. Like 18 year old Aaron's like, fuck, yeah. Like, we're all in it together, man. But that's, that's who I'm doing it for. Not like corporation, abc.

B (75:28)

Yeah.

A (75:28)

Thank you. You know, you're, you're not just a number. You're a very, you're, you're our number one asset. Like, it's like, okay, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Yeah. And it's like, great. Yeah. You know, we've increased shareholder value this year.

B (75:42)

Yeah. Wow.

A (75:43)

Like, I've really made a difference. And, and it's not to beat up on that approach. Like, I think there's a lot of value in that approach too.

B (75:51)

But, yeah, I get it.

A (75:53)

I think the, the human side of things is most important in this world.

B (75:57)

Oh, yeah. And some, some companies miss that.

A (76:02)

Yes.

B (76:03)

I think even in small business you can miss that. Honestly, sometimes in small business, it's like you get stuck in that race of like, I don't want to be a small business, I want to be a big business.

A (76:14)

Yeah.

B (76:14)

And then along the lines, I even would say we fell into this trap at one point of like, oh, we're gonna become a bigger business. So now we got to change these things. And like, I can't be accessed by the guys as easily as I was at one point. Some of those things, I'm like, you know, that's kind of a mistake. Like, the business is still me, it's still a small business, and there's nothing wrong with that.

A (76:36)

Yeah.

B (76:36)

That heart and soul is what makes us who we are. Like, that's our competitive edge against large companies. Is that like, you can hire this guy over here, huge company, or you can hire Jared, Jared's Crushing Services. Like, you know, we always make fun of Billy's backhoe service. Right. But it's like at the end of the day, people call Billy because they love Billy and he does a dang good job. Is there anything wrong with that? Actually, no.

A (77:02)

And like, yeah, sometimes I've fallen in this trap too, but sometimes, like, people take themselves way too seriously as well. It's like, like, why are you, why are you acting that way? Like, what, what? Like, what's going on here? Like, we don't even, we don't have to do this like we don't. You don't have to talk like that. You know that, right? Like, okay, cool. You're a big deal, but like in the grand scheme of things, you're not that big of a deal. Like there's much bigger fish than you.

B (77:30)

There's always going to be bigger.

A (77:31)

There's always going to be bigger. It's like, why? Why are we doing that? Whereas like again, the people that have stuck out with me the most in this world are just like the most human and genuine. Like one of. So in mining is way different than construction in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's very driven by governments. Very driven by governments. It's very consolidated. You just have a few big mining companies that dominate certain commodities and, and it's very much a global market. And there's. It's. I think it's fascinating. I think it's so cool, so cool. But there's this guy out in Australia and he has this, this. I've had him on the podcast, Barry. He has a company, Pembroke, that's a steel making coal operation. And in mining it's hard to find executives that talk like people that just say what they're. I've noticed what they think. Oh, it's brutal. It's brutal.

B (78:36)

It's like this ChatGPT script.

A (78:38)

Yes, yes.

B (78:39)

Yeah.

A (78:39)

Like everything's written by a lawyer.

B (78:40)

Yeah.

A (78:42)

And whereas he, I spent like a day with him last year just driving around the mine and to me one, it was just so cool as a young business owner because this guy, he had this vision of what was possible and then you could like see it happening in the most concrete sense, unlike the biggest of scales. Like, it's not like I envision this building or this office. It's like I envisioned this, this, this expanse of operation that's tens of thousands of acres of all different sizes. And you know, thousands of people have been involved in this and it's, it's tens of billions of dollars, eventually hundreds of billions. Like just the scale, the infrastructure, everything started with this guy that just didn't fucking stop. He just. And he should have. Like, if at every turn I even asked him, I was like, why'd you do this? Like, why, why put up with. Why do this? Like, you didn't have to do any of this. Why?

B (79:52)

Yeah. So why? Where's the why from?

A (79:54)

Well, but it was kind of like he had to. Like, someone has to like, this is, this is more important than him or even the company. This is about like furthering humanity. They're making steel Making coal, which then makes steel, which is like the backbone of our entire society. You can't mess with it. But one, it was just so cool to see somebody that just had a vision and just relentlessly chase that vision. To me, there's just nothing more intoxicating as, like, a young business owner. And then two, he just talks like a guy. You can just talk to him and he'll just tell you what he thinks. And it's just so refreshing.

B (80:38)

Like, man, this guy's a massive net worth.

A (80:41)

Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he's a big deal.

B (80:44)

Yeah.

A (80:45)

Like, he's. He's. He created a whole mine. Like, Australia's probably last Greenfield coal mine ever. Like, it's a.

B (80:52)

It's a.

A (80:52)

It's a big deal. And if, you know, when I. Like when I last saw him, you know, he was like, oh, I was in, you know, Singapore and then London and then Zurich and then, you know, just.

B (81:00)

Just.

A (81:01)

Just bouncing around the world and speeches and all this kind of stuff. But then he just. He just talks to you like a. Like a human being. There's like. This is so refreshing.

B (81:12)

Yeah, we need more of this.

A (81:13)

This. Yes.

B (81:14)

Like, this is what we need.

A (81:15)

This is what I want to be around.

B (81:17)

And this builds the world.

A (81:18)

And this builds the world. And it's like, if I wanted to go to work for somebody like this, is it a guy like this that just tells me what he thinks? Which sounds so stupid, but it's like, it's so hard to find. It's so rare.

B (81:33)

Yeah.

A (81:33)

Yes. It's so rare.

B (81:35)

Yeah.

A (81:36)

So. And going back to then, our conversation while we were in the kitchen when you got here. That's why I love podcasting in a lot of ways, because it forces you, or doesn't always, but it should force you to be more honest with yourself and with other people and to articulate what you think.

B (81:55)

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

A (81:58)

Go figure. And you've been podcasting. How many episodes are you in now?

B (82:03)

So I did 50 episodes.

A (82:04)

50.

B (82:05)

50.

A (82:06)

That's a lot.

B (82:07)

Yeah. I forget when I started a few months ago.

A (82:09)

Why'd you start?

B (82:12)

I'm a sucker for punishment. So I was like, actually kind of where I started. Where it started from was like, I had the idea for a while, but then I was like, why do I want to do it? I'm not sure. And one day I was just like, you know what? I'm a little bored at work right now. Like, things were kind of ticking along, which is unusual, but it Was ticking along pretty good. I'm like, I gotta do this because I just got to get myself out there. I got all these thoughts in my head. I'm like, I'm talking to myself as I drive down the road. I might as well just hit record and say this out loud. Sure. And see what I'm saying and then see if people want to hear it. Because, like, I would have people calling me and wanting to talk to me. Just. Just chat. Like they enjoy chatting with me. People from all over the place. And so I'm like, I guess people want to hear what I have to say. I might as well just hit record and throw it out there. So that's how that started. It's been good. It's challenging, but it's. Yeah, it's good to get the thoughts out there.

A (83:08)

Yeah. How's it. How's it. How's it been for you mentally? Like, have you. Have you been self conscious at all or have you been just sending it or what's that been? Like?

B (83:19)

I. Partway through probably like 30 or 40 episodes in, I really got in my head and we had some challenges at work. And then I kind of got in my head about the podcast. Like, I gotta be careful what I say. And I kind of got into this mental funk with it where I was like, I'm doing it because I've told people I would do it. So now I'm doing it as a job.

A (83:40)

Yes.

B (83:40)

And I wasn't putting my heart into it. And so there's some episodes that probably kind of suck that I haven't listened back to. I'm like, you know, those probably kind of sucked because I wasn't in a great mental spot.

A (83:51)

Yeah.

B (83:51)

So I just took a break. Right. And we got back to it recently.

A (83:54)

I saw that.

B (83:55)

Yeah. So feeling better about it now?

A (83:58)

I was talking with Alex Kraft. He was on the podcast recently. Just. He does a podcast too. And he's like, what. What have you learned? I was like, you've got to enjoy it.

B (84:08)

Yeah.

A (84:08)

If you're not enjoying. Can't be a job if it. If it's a job or you're just doing it to do it. Not gonna work. It's just gonna be a shitty product.

B (84:18)

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's a product of your thoughts that start well before you hit record.

A (84:24)

Yeah. Well, in. In a format like this, too, when you're going hours, you can't hide either. And people are very intuitive. And so people know.

B (84:33)

Yeah.

A (84:33)

People know if you're enjoying it or not.

B (84:35)

Well, they read into It. Right.

A (84:36)

Yeah. It's pretty obvious. And then they don't consume it. It's just like, why. Especially nowadays when there's just.

B (84:43)

There's so much.

A (84:44)

So much.

B (84:45)

We're inundated with content.

A (84:46)

Yes.

B (84:47)

Good and bad. It's all there.

A (84:49)

But a lot of really good stuff.

B (84:50)

That's the thing. The mobility is like, compared to 10 years ago. There's, like, very little.

A (84:55)

Yeah, it's. It's fantastic. But, yeah. Yeah, you have to enjoy it.

B (85:00)

Yeah.

A (85:00)

So it. It's. How do you determine what you're going to talk about?

B (85:06)

Probably the way I'm feeling that day, I've tried, like, I'll pick a topic and have, like, some points that I go through, but I find it's not as natural. Like, for me, it's almost like what's on my mind that day. Let's just talk about that. Yeah, let's be honest about it and be on. Be as honest. Like, I try to be as honest and as real in the podcast as I can be. There are some things you can't say. Yeah, that's like, I just want to say that. Yeah, it's like, no, I can't. But I feel like that's part of the problem in our industry is that so many people are scared to say anything. So I'm like, I got to start by saying something and saying things that other people maybe don't want to say. And, hey, my competitors are probably listening and they're probably gleaning some great information, but at the end of the day.

A (85:56)

So what on this is to go back to my earlier point is like, we need more people just saying what they believe and what needs to be said.

B (86:06)

Actually having a stance. Taking a stance publicly.

A (86:09)

Yes.

B (86:10)

Yeah.

A (86:10)

I think, like, especially the civil construction industry is getting pushed around by bigger forces right now. And it's not any one force, but it's all of these far more consolidated forces.

B (86:24)

Yeah.

A (86:25)

You've got manufacturers, you've got insurance companies, you've got government regulators, you've got engineering firms. Engineering firms, Yep. That's a great one. Material suppliers, like, you can go down the list. And they're not all devious little monsters, but some of them are. Some of them are. And they're not even, like, trying to do bad things, but they're just their. Their interests are oftentimes not aligned with the overall industry. Their interests are their interests.

B (86:59)

Yep.

A (87:00)

Sometimes it aligns, sometimes it doesn't. And you don't have. Because of how fragmented this world, is any one force standing up for Everybody.

B (87:11)

Yeah.

A (87:12)

But you do. Because of the fragmentation. You have so many potential voices that if people did stand up and say, hey, this is kind of dumb, or we're not going to do this, actually, you'd be able to make huge progress.

B (87:30)

And actually make some change.

A (87:31)

And actually make some change. Yes.

B (87:33)

Yeah. Because there's, like, some industry practice. Again, I think this is, like, this is some motivation to why I've, Like, I've been posting on LinkedIn for years. I was like, why do I do that? Right.

A (87:44)

Um, because that's how I first saw you, I think.

B (87:45)

Yeah. Probably on there. And it's like, why do you. Why do it? Because sometimes you say things, and in hindsight, it's like, yeah, you know, that doesn't make that much sense. And somebody calls you out on it, like, oh, yeah, I'm an idiot. Officially. Great.

A (87:58)

Yeah.

B (87:59)

But it's like that idea of taking. Of actually taking a stance for people in the industry and that was really part of my vision when I started the business, is like, hey, I feel like, no offense, past employer, but I feel like I can be a better employer than you are. Mm. Because you're not actually taking care of me that well. You're not painting a vision for what the future looks like for me. Like, I've got no career path here. Mm. Like, great. I can be an excavator operator for the next 25 years, making 35 bucks an hour. I don't want to do that, though.

A (88:29)

Yeah.

B (88:30)

Like, I want to do that for, like, five years.

A (88:31)

Yeah.

B (88:32)

And then I want to go do something else. Paint me the story of where I need to go. So you've been in business for 30 years. Great. I've been here for two. Talk to me about the past 30. But a lot of people don't want to.

A (88:46)

Yeah.

B (88:46)

They don't know what the story is. So that's part of the idea of the podcast is like, let's just say what the story is. Let's record it so people can listen back if they want. Maybe they don't want to. That's fine. But they can actually hear what's going on in the business. Where we've been.

A (89:04)

So what's. What's. Been the impact of. Of. No pun intended.

B (89:08)

Yeah.

A (89:09)

Because it's called the impact chamber.

B (89:10)

Impact.

A (89:11)

Because you're a crushing guy. Very clever.

B (89:13)

That's. Yeah. Where we crush it.

A (89:15)

Yeah. Well. Yeah. Well done. What. What. What. What has been. What has happened? You know, you're 50 episodes in. That's enough. Sample.

B (89:25)

Yeah.

A (89:26)

It's Enough of a sample size. So what has happen.

B (89:29)

I've had some guys reach out to me and thank me for doing it. One guy in particular reached out to me. I mean, I've had a lot. I've actually had a lot of guys reach out to me and thank me for doing it. And they're like, dude, keep doing it. Like, I'm listening to this every chance I get. Like, every episode that comes out, like, on my way to work, 4am I'm listening to you. Because nobody else is saying the things you're saying in the industry, locally. I'm like, that's motivating for me. And that's an. Like, in that way, I'm having an impact on their lives. And it's just sometimes just verbalizing some of the struggles we have. Like, hey, this is actually hard. Getting up at 4 o' clock every morning, that's actually hard. So let's just talk about that for a second.

A (90:11)

Yeah.

B (90:12)

Being away from home week after week and construction, like, that's actually hard. How are you actually doing that with your family? Let's just talk about that. And what can we do differently?

A (90:24)

Yeah. So what, like, along those lines, like, what isn't being said, like, in the industry? Yeah.

B (90:32)

That'S a good question. I think that people. There's a lot of companies that are still not speaking on a human language level. A lot of large companies, like, the large employers in the industry, they want, like, they're like, why does nobody want to work for us? I'm like, well, because you guys aren't making it human for them. Yeah, yeah. Like make safety human.

A (90:55)

Yeah. Like, maybe it sucks. I don't know.

B (90:57)

Yeah.

A (90:58)

Yeah.

B (90:59)

Hey, you got a team of guys working out in a quarry, but they have no idea who they're actually working for besides this dang paycheck.

A (91:06)

Yeah.

B (91:07)

And this rusty, shitty equipment you give them. And they've been asking for the loader airbag seat thing to be fixed for two years. The guy's breaking his back every day. Nobody's fixing his damn seat.

A (91:17)

But they should be grateful for that paycheck.

B (91:19)

But they should be grateful for that 2750 that he's made. And he's been here for 25 years to get that.

A (91:25)

Yep.

B (91:25)

Right? Be grateful for that.

A (91:27)

Yeah.

B (91:27)

He's building a future. And you see them post on LinkedIn, come build a future with us. It's like, a future of what?

A (91:33)

Yeah, well, and then. And the recruiting ads gonna be somebody smiling.

B (91:37)

Yeah.

A (91:38)

But then you go to the site and everybody's miserable. You're like, wait a minute, where's the smiling guy? I don't see him.

B (91:42)

Anyway. Yeah. I'm not like, hey, I'm not painting with a broad brush here.

A (91:47)

Yeah.

B (91:47)

There's great parts of the industry.

A (91:49)

Yeah.

B (91:49)

And there's great companies. So I don't want to say that everybody's in the tanks, but I do think that a lot of companies expect. They expect so much from their people, and they expect that they don't. They're like, the paychecks good enough.

A (92:03)

Like when it.

B (92:04)

That's when a reward and like, no, it's not.

A (92:06)

But when it's not that good at the same time, like, no paychecks. Not even that good. I've started to realize, like, I've started to dig in on the numbers. It's like, where are the numbers good.

B (92:14)

Yeah.

A (92:15)

Because I'm not seeing it in a lot of places.

B (92:16)

Yeah. Some guys are working really hard for subpar. Subpar wages. You know that guy's making 60 grand a year.

A (92:25)

Yeah.

B (92:25)

To load trucks. Like, really?

A (92:27)

Yeah. But. But everybody. But all the other. All the. Everybody else in the equations making a shitload of money.

B (92:32)

Yeah. The upper guys.

A (92:34)

Well, but I mean, like, it's just. It's just weird to me that, like, the. In the United States, we're in. That we're in the process of spending a trillion dollars on our infrastructure.

B (92:45)

Yeah.

A (92:46)

The most we've ever spent on infrastructure, which is, you know. Okay, great. And yet the buying power for people over the past five years, the term in which this has happened. So it's the most historic spending of infrastructure ever in American history. But the buying power for people in the industry has declined.

B (93:08)

Like the person.

A (93:08)

Yes. So wages have grown by about 20%, but because of inflation, their buying power is down by percent on average across the entire United States. So they. They can actually afford. Because cost of living has gone up and inflation. They. They're doing worse off.

B (93:24)

Yeah.

A (93:24)

Than they were just five years ago while probably working more hours. Like, where'd the money go?

B (93:35)

Yeah.

A (93:36)

Where did it go?

B (93:38)

There was a lot of money made. Still being made.

A (93:42)

Still being made.

B (93:43)

BO Is like, where's it sitting?

A (93:45)

And how can we sit around and congratulate one another?

B (93:50)

Yeah.

A (93:50)

It's like, you know, Dan made a great post. It was a while ago now, but. Yeah. But about like the ENR List. It's all based on revenue. And everybody's like, bragging about how much revenue they're doing. Revenue this, revenue that. He's kind of like, shouldn't we be Talking about, like, how well our businesses are doing, how well our people are doing. Like, I know that's harder to quantify on a list, but, like, the revenue doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Like, why that's the only thing we celebrate. But again, like, I'm working on a presentation right now. All right, cool. There's more money being spent than ever before in the construction industry, however, wages have increased, but buying purchasing power is down. For everybody doing the work. People are killing themselves at a greater rate than ever before by suicide and by drugs, not even intending to do it with drugs, but are doing it with drugs in a huge number. We need in the United States, about half a million people to just meet existing demand. Currently, you go out to job sites, you look around, is everybody, like, fired up? Just all in? Not all the time, no. You know, hours worked are only more and more. You just start to go down the list of, like, are we, like, how, you know, you put the numbers on the screen. Then you ask the audience when I'm speaking, like, would we tell our kids to go into this world if I take construction off the top and we forget that we're all in construction and just look at this objectively and ask.

B (95:39)

That'S a good question.

A (95:40)

Is this really where we want our children? Most people say no.

B (95:47)

And it's like, there's some bad things about construction.

A (95:50)

There's some really bad things about construction. But it's like, shouldn't we start? There isn't like, I don't know. I don't have. If I'm Mr. Construction Company, I have no say over the global economy. I have no say over material rates and. And commodities prices and federal spending and even local and state spending. And you can go down the list. Like, I don't have a lot I can do about any of that stuff. However, I can potentially help make my people healthier. I can, you know, I can do XYZ to take care of what's right in front of me. And that might be different, and that might be stuff that I never had. But, like, isn't that the point? Isn't the point to make it better than you were? Like, I don't understand the resentment from the older generation, of the newer generation demanding things to be better. They say it's entitled. It's like, well, but isn't that the whole fucking point of what we're trying to do here?

B (96:53)

And isn't that maybe why you're burnt out at 50 years old?

A (96:56)

Isn't that why you're bitter because it did kind of suck for 40 years. Like, but. But that's also a hard pill to swallow because it's like, holy shit, man. I have been kind of a bitter asshole as a result. And I. You can't blame them. I get it. I'd be. I'd be. I'd be the same person. But, like, that's just what's been so confusing to me. It's like, is it the point to make it better and to leave it better?

B (97:22)

But I think it's to your. To your further point of, like, people got to. The industry has to come together on a big scale to have enough of this.

A (97:30)

Yes.

B (97:31)

Because, like, why is it that my guys need work 70 hours a week? They don't actually work 70 hours a week. But, like, I've had to push back against that hard in our industry, crushing its production. Need hours, hours, hours, hours. Yep. So we got to work 70 hours a week. I've always put my foot down and said, no, we're not gonna. You know, we did that for a bit. And I'm like, no, we're not gonna do that, because there's no life in that. So we're gonna cut it off at 60. We'll do 60 hours a week. Like, that better be enough. That's a lot of hours.

A (98:00)

And that's a lot of hours still.

B (98:01)

So that's a lot of hours. You're gone from home a lot.

A (98:03)

Yeah.

B (98:03)

To work 60 hours.

A (98:04)

Yeah.

B (98:07)

But to work at the rates you got to work at, you got to work 60 hours, or else you'd have to increase the price. And then there's always the next guy coming in cheaper, and you're always fighting against that. And until you can actually convince people on scale that, like, hey, the pricing that we're working at today, it's the same price we were getting 10 years ago. Who's driving this price down the industry? We are, because we're fighting each other like a bunch of children.

A (98:36)

Yeah.

B (98:37)

We won't actually sit together in one room. I can't get people to sit together in one room and actually talk about this and say, like, we don't have to work for this price. The moment we stop saying yes to this from these big companies is the moment that it changes. Yeah. So why aren't we doing that? Why can't we pay people more or less? Offer them something different? Right. Like.

A (99:00)

Yeah, I. Well. And you know, when. When people talk about how much money is made in construction, I'm like, well, one, show me where it is. So I'd love to see it too. I do see it sometimes, but yeah, I'm not as often as I was previously considering. And then two. So that's based off a 40 hour week? No. Like, how many hours are they doing to get that money? Yeah, like, how many hours is that?

B (99:27)

100.

A (99:28)

You know, like, so what's going on there?

B (99:30)

I mean, at the work nights for five months.

A (99:32)

Yeah. Yeah. They didn't see their families all summer.

B (99:35)

They're working nights 10 hours from home.

A (99:37)

But they made a shitload of money.

B (99:39)

Yeah.

A (99:43)

And it's just like, what I. Because you're divorced twice doesn't mean I should be divorced twice. Like, I don't want to.

B (99:53)

Why were you divorced twice? Right. Like, and was that good? Was that a positive experience for you?

A (99:58)

And I'm sitting around like, they're not. These aren't bad people. Like, it's like you guys have been the ones telling me to not do what you've done. I'm heeding your advice here to not do what you've done. So can you help me out here? Like, again, I just. It's perplexing and maybe I'm still naive to think that like the previous generation should be handing things down to the next generation in a better state.

B (100:36)

Yeah.

A (100:37)

It's just not that way right now.

B (100:40)

Yeah. It's interesting even talking about this though, because it's not like I think about this every day. No, I should think about this more.

A (100:47)

Well, I'm cursed with this because I'm just the big picture guy. I just see everything, surface level, you know, I'm like sitting in the, in the bleachers just watching the game. I'm not in the game.

B (101:00)

Yeah. I'm watching the footage.

A (101:01)

Yeah. I'm just watching it.

B (101:03)

Yep.

A (101:04)

And I have more data points than most people at this point.

B (101:07)

Yeah. And you're looking at this big picture and saying, what are we doing?

A (101:10)

Yeah. And I'm just looking at the big picture. So it's like when I go talk to people, I'm not here to tell you how to do what you're doing better.

B (101:17)

Yeah.

A (101:18)

Like, I'm not here to tell you how to make a better earth moving company or how to move dirt more effect efficiently and this and that. Like, I know the ins and outs of moving dirt at a basic level, but not as well as you do. You do it every day. However, I am seeing the big picture here and there's just some like troubling shit.

B (101:38)

Yeah.

A (101:39)

And like. And what choice do we have? Two Options. One, we either just keep just blaming the world for screwing us over. Poor, poor me, I'm a victim here. Or two, we say, let's just handle our shit.

B (101:58)

At an industry level.

A (102:00)

Yes. And make it better for everybody.

B (102:05)

You know, as a business owner, I can. I know why I sometimes end up in the spot of not making it better. Because they're like, you know, when I started my business, I had that intention. I'm going to make this better for people that work for me. And then I went to hire my first employee. I was like, faced with the realities of, like, well, I can only pay him this much. And I.

A (102:26)

Yes.

B (102:27)

And I need them to work this many hours and I need them to work where the work is.

A (102:31)

Yep. We're only getting paid this rate.

B (102:33)

Yeah. Like, I can't charge more.

A (102:35)

Diesel's up this month.

B (102:36)

Yeah, right. Like we had a breakdown. Like, we gotta work some extra hours. Can you come in Saturday? Like I said I wouldn't do that. Here I am doing it. So as a business owner, you're faced with those realities because the economic state that we just live in. Right. It's the state we've created. So how do you, how do you balance reality with what you want it to be in the future? Sometimes that. That's a tough thing to reconcile with. Sometimes.

A (103:03)

Well. And boy, have I been there. Like, I've always told everybody, like, I want to pay everybody as much as possible. I really do. That's like, like I feel bad when we can't give people more money like that.

B (103:20)

100%.

A (103:20)

It's the coolest feeling in the world. It's the coolest thing. However, it's just like, yeah, there are these economic reality, like you can't, you.

B (103:29)

Can'T run the money.

A (103:31)

Well, yeah. And I've been guilty of just living. And I think as a business, we've been too guilty of living in the future too much. Whereas we forget the today and it's like, that's great. And can we go there? We sure can. But does that match with the reality of today? No, it doesn't. So we need to go there and let's go there. But let's not forget today's situation, because if we don't figure out today that future state doesn't mean anything because it's not going to fucking happen because we're not going to be here anymore.

B (104:03)

One of your values, I saw there's stay scrappy, right?

A (104:06)

Yeah.

B (104:06)

I really like that. Because how do you, how do you change an industry and stay scrappy? I think it's super possible.

A (104:14)

It is.

B (104:15)

I think it's super possible.

A (104:16)

Well, frankly, we're putting up bigger numbers in Caterpillar Online. We've got a much lower budget marketing. A budget, let me tell you.

B (104:28)

That's what I mean. Having positive impact doesn't just take money. There's other ways of doing it as well. Mm. You know, like starting a podcast or posting your opinions on LinkedIn that are positive.

A (104:41)

Yes.

B (104:41)

It's free.

A (104:42)

Yes.

B (104:42)

For the most part. Well, what else can we do with our people?

A (104:46)

Well, and, like, people look at me now, it's like, oh, yeah, you know, great.

B (104:49)

You've got.

A (104:50)

You've got all these followers, so on and so forth. It's like, yeah, but I started. I was just some dumb kid. Still a dumb kid. But I was just some dumb kid building a road in Texas.

B (104:58)

I started that. Yes, I remember that.

A (105:00)

Started putting some pictures on the Internet.

B (105:01)

Yeah. I was like, who is this dumb kid? This is. This is cool.

A (105:04)

That's it.

B (105:05)

I was, like, searching Instagram back then, like, heavy equipment, and you're, like, the only guy coming up there.

A (105:10)

Really? Yeah, there wasn't much. I mean, I wasn't the first, but there wasn't much when I got going.

B (105:15)

Yeah. It was pretty nuts.

A (105:17)

Yeah.

B (105:17)

I don't think people today realize that, actually, because, like, now it's just inundated with people doing a good job of it.

A (105:23)

It's. There's a lot of good job. Yeah, there. There's a lot of great. There's a lot of total bullshit. But. But there's a lot of great, great stuff, too. But. But I. Again, I'm like, I want more great stuff because it's in their interest. Like, it's. I used to come at it like, oh, I could do that better. Like, they don't even know what they're doing. Fucking idiots. You know? Like, I come at it from, like, this. This arrogant perspective. Whereas. Yeah. But now it's like, no, no, no. I want you to do it well for the sake of your people, for the sake of your business, your community. Like, for the sake of the industry. Yeah.

B (106:04)

As a whole.

A (106:04)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

B (106:06)

So we need more of that humility. There's a lot of pride in the industry.

A (106:10)

Yeah. And I get it.

B (106:12)

I get it, too. And I. And I have it. I got the best company in the world.

A (106:18)

Well, you need some. Yeah.

B (106:19)

Yeah. You got to have some arrogance, I think, to. You got some pride and arrogance to start a business.

A (106:23)

Yeah.

B (106:24)

Start anything. Right. Like, what do you mean you're good enough to start something? I'm good enough. Mm. Watch me.

A (106:30)

But the. But I feel like. I feel like you need to ultimately have confidence, and the confidence is built in doing the work and you know, if you've done the work or not.

B (106:41)

Yeah.

A (106:41)

If that makes sense. Like. Like when we were out in Indonesia a month ago and I went to go take pictures of an excavator and I mean, it was a big project. Like, big project. I'm out in Indonesia. Flew halfway around the world to be there. Big company, very well known company, like. But I knew I was just going to deliver. Like, I didn't. I wasn't worried about it. I wasn't nervous at all because I've put in so many reps. Yeah. And like, up until that point, it's like, this is what I've been working on for eight years now, straight. And so I can. Then. Now I can be in that position. I'm like, I can deliver here. And it's rooted in. Like, it wasn't always rooted in that legitimate confidence, but now it's like the legitimate confidence or for you, it's like, I've done the. Yeah, I've done the. I've. I've. I've worked on crushers, when it's hot, when it's cold, and everything in between.

B (107:42)

Yeah. Like, I've done that job.

A (107:43)

Yeah. Like, how many jams have you.

B (107:45)

Yeah.

A (107:47)

Have you undone?

B (107:48)

None.

A (107:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

B (107:51)

We don't jam.

A (107:52)

Jam free.

B (107:53)

Oh, yeah.

A (107:54)

These have the new jam break down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like once you. Once you do enough of the work, then you're like, okay, it starts to click. Yeah. Now. Now, like, that confidence is. Is backed by something.

B (108:09)

Yeah. Backed by experience.

A (108:11)

Yes.

B (108:11)

Yeah. Yeah. Takes time to get there, and it just takes time. You got to be patient, and you.

A (108:16)

Just got to be patient.

B (108:17)

And that's where I see some guys make, you know, go to social media. So you guys make that mistake on social media. They're. They are overconfident or impatient.

A (108:25)

I saw somebody the other day, really good guy, everything. Like, he's. He's on it. He's. He's. He's doing a really nice job, but he got impatient.

B (108:35)

Yeah.

A (108:35)

And he let everybody know that. And I saw it and I'm just like, what do you do, man? Like, you still. This is not the way. And I know, I want to say all the same shit, but it's not the way. Like, this just. It will not work.

B (108:51)

Yeah, yeah. And that's when. Yeah. When you're approaching an industry problem that we. Like what we have. I've been hesitant to say a lot about it.

A (109:01)

Yeah.

B (109:02)

Like, I try not to be too direct about some of the problems that we have because, like, you know what? People don't want to hear that direct right now. That's. Oh. And I think it's okay.

A (109:12)

Well, I think, yeah, there's some. There's some nuance to it.

B (109:18)

Yeah.

A (109:18)

Like. And I'm trying to figure that nuance out as we speak. I'm really trying to understand it. And I like to think I'm a little bit more tactful. I like to. I like to think people are a little bit more receptive now to what I have to say, because I didn't. I didn't say it very well for a long. I. Because I. I see it because that's what I was doing. I was. That. I was that impatient kid. Like, you guys have it all wrong. You're a bunch of idiots. It's so easy. Like, this is the way to figure it out. Why isn't everybody doing it? Can you get off your ass? Get to it? Like. And again, it's just not. Like, when I was talking to Dave Ramsey not too long ago.

B (109:59)

Yeah, it was a good podcast.

A (110:01)

It was just a great. I didn't do a very good job. I was. Which frustrates me. I could have done much better because I was. I was honestly. That one I got a little nervous for.

B (110:12)

Yeah.

A (110:12)

Well, I mean. Yeah, I started to get in my head about it because everybody else was making it a big deal. Like, it wasn't a big deal for.

B (110:18)

Me until it became a big.

A (110:20)

Until everybody. Yes. I wish no one fucking knew about it so I could have just done it. And.

B (110:24)

Yeah.

A (110:25)

But. But anyway, so I did my best. But he was. It was interesting what he was saying about the previous generation and the future generation. Like, you know, the future generation, you have to have the respect of the previous generation.

B (110:39)

Yep.

A (110:40)

Because they do have that 30, 40 years of experience. They have tried A through Z 10 times over.

B (110:47)

Yep.

A (110:47)

They do know what works and what doesn't work. And so you. You have to meet them halfway with that total respect. But then at the same time, the pre. The past generation has to meet the future generation halfway and acknowledge, hey, the world is changing, has changed, and that's okay. And you can work together then, like, it's. It doesn't have to be combative, and it shouldn't be combative, and it can't Be competitive.

B (111:17)

Yeah.

A (111:17)

It has to be collaboration. It has to be teamwork, and each side has to come to the table. And, you know, it takes you setting your ego aside, which is hard to come to that table. And this world has big egos.

B (111:35)

I do like the way Dave talks. Dave Ramsey talks about the younger generation meeting the older generation. Yeah. Because he's the older generation. He's the guy. And sometimes you sense that, like, he's got an eagle. Right. I just like, how is he navigating that? How can we navigate. Navigate that?

A (111:53)

Yeah. But I think his.

B (111:54)

His.

A (111:55)

His. His view is. Is very realistic because he's done it successfully with his children. Like, and. And again, that's. I like taking advice from people that I've done it. It's like, well, this guy's done it, so he must know something on the topic. Yeah, yeah.

B (112:11)

No, that's. Those are good points.

A (112:14)

Yeah. But it was the. It was the first time I'd heard it, like, put. So clearly, it's like, yeah, had you just told me this six years ago, would have been really helpful. But then at the same time, it's like, but I wasn't ready for that because.

B (112:28)

Because we've been that young kid that comes screaming into a situation. Yes. Yeah. You old guy, you don't have a clue what you're doing. And he's sitting there like, shut up, dude. Like, I've tried exactly what. You know, that's the thing. Some of these old guys have actually tried to change the industry at some point. Yeah. This guy that used to work for me, you know, he tried to change the industry when it came to some pricing issues and stuff in the past. Like, he tried bringing everybody together locally and like, hey, let's talk. Like, let's. Let's just communicate what we're up to here. And it worked to some degree, but you know, their struggles with it.

A (113:03)

Yeah.

B (113:04)

And so for somebody just to go to him and be like, hey, like, you're the problem. You're. You're the problem. And he's sitting there like, screw off. Yeah. Have you. You weren't even born when I was trying to fix this problem.

A (113:16)

Like, sure.

B (113:17)

You know what I mean?

A (113:18)

Well, and a lot of it is just timing as well. Like, I also think the market hasn't been ready for a lot of these conversations in a lot of ways. And the market hasn't needed these conversations in a lot of ways, honestly. Like, these companies that have been around for 75 years, like, listen, we've been running this one play, and it's worked out really well for us. So we're just going to keep running that play. But it's like, can't do that anymore.

B (113:44)

Now because of workforce things have changed.

A (113:47)

Things are changing, dramatically changing.

B (113:50)

I was talking to a guy, he's been in business for a long time, road building. And he was saying like, you know, 25 years ago, if the guy didn't lace up his boots right, you'd fire him because you knew he had eight more guys waiting at the scale house for a job. Like physically waiting there. Basically, he's like, you know, you don't have that anymore.

A (114:09)

Yeah. I remember I was on a job, this was when I was, I was young, I was maybe just out of college. And this guy backed a skid steer into a culvert. Scratched the back of the skid steer. It was a big company. They fired him right there. All within about five minutes, maybe 10.

B (114:28)

Minutes for backing into that culvert.

A (114:30)

Yeah.

B (114:30)

He.

A (114:30)

He had damaged equipment. That's against company policy. He was out.

B (114:35)

No kidding.

A (114:35)

And for whatever reason, that was like a. That's an experience that stuck with me. There's a few like that with people that's just like, there's not a better way to do this. Like, this is the standard. It's almost disappointing in a way. And when you, when you come in all fresh and new and or even, you know, one, One business owner, he explored, explained to me how like just laying people off was just part of, part of the construction business.

B (115:03)

Yeah.

A (115:03)

And how it's just a. It's like gravity is just a matter of fact. And I was just, I remember sitting there knowing nothing about construction businesses or economic cycles or you know, when I was like I was a kid in 2008, etc. But even still, like, just sitting there like. But does it have to be that way?

B (115:21)

Like, but there's that annoying question.

A (115:24)

Yeah. Could there be a better way? Like why. Why is this just an accepted norm?

B (115:29)

Yeah.

A (115:29)

And like, isn't this accepted norm that everybody had 2008, 2009, 2010? Kind of why we're here as well? Because everybody was laid off and because they went to other industries.

B (115:43)

Yeah. They went to school so that they didn't have to be in construction.

A (115:45)

And they didn't. Yeah. They were like, screw this, I'm out. And they didn't come back.

B (115:49)

I'll be in construction as an engineer.

A (115:51)

Yeah.

B (115:51)

Something.

A (115:52)

Yeah. Or just went and became like a line cook. You know, like it just, just, just happens. Totally went in a different direction.

B (115:59)

Yeah. What's interesting is when we were early in business, when we were working like 70 hours a week, every guy that quit working for me, which I had a number of guys quit, we had some good turnover in the beginning. Every guy that quit completely left construction.

A (116:16)

Yeah.

B (116:16)

Gone. They were like, I'm not doing it. If that's what it is, I don't want it.

A (116:21)

Yeah.

B (116:22)

But since we've gotten a little better at culture and developing people within the industry, and now I've had some guys leave. We still have some turnover. And the guys that leave now, though, 98% of them are staying in the industry. They're doing world building of some sort, which is fascinating to me.

A (116:43)

But that, that's, you know, going back to the whole honesty conversation, I think that's where we also need to be honest as an industry. And I'm guilty. I've. I've helped in this crime that is painting the industry into something a little prettier than it really is.

B (117:01)

Yeah.

A (117:02)

And I've tried. I've tried not to. Like, I have. I don't. I don't bullshit anything. I don't stage anything. I've never. Every photograph is just like, what's happening that day? However, I have made it look prettier and more dramatic than maybe it actually is day to day. But that's where you know, if you're, if you're dishonest with people to get them in the door. Well, you can't hide what the heck's going on behind the door. Once they walk in the room, they're.

B (117:31)

Like, the work's the work.

A (117:32)

Wait a minute. Like, you didn't tell me about this boogeyman, but the boogeyman's right here. Like, what the.

B (117:40)

Like, here's this thing we don't want to talk about.

A (117:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, but then.

B (117:44)

And then it's like, yeah, we don't travel for work.

A (117:46)

Yeah. And I. Yeah.

B (117:47)

And we do.

A (117:48)

And as I'm driving, you know, as I'm bitter because it's like, well, you said I wouldn't be traveling. I'm driving by, you know, Amazon Fulfillment saying they're gonna pay me the same amount of money to just hang out in this giant box every day.

B (118:01)

I'm like, heated and cool.

A (118:02)

Yeah. I mean, I don't know what I'm concerned contributing, but yeah, it's heated, it's cool. The same location, same money. Like, why wouldn't I do this? Fixed hours, like, sign me up.

B (118:12)

Yeah. Yeah. It is easy to over glorify construction. Probably I haven't thought too much about that, I guess.

A (118:20)

Well, but I think, like, I think about this because I've spent some time thinking about, like, the U.S. marines and their recruiting. Like, they just tell you it sucks. They don't miss their recruiting numbers.

B (118:32)

Mmm. There's some truth in that, isn't there?

A (118:35)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (118:36)

People just want the truth.

A (118:37)

Yes.

B (118:38)

Yes, even. Why? Like, conversations. It's like people just want. Like, you were talking about it. You meet these people, you talk with some people and you're like, that conversation sucked.

A (118:48)

Yeah.

B (118:49)

It wasn't real. Like, say.

A (118:51)

Yeah, but you can almost like, they're frustrating because it's like you can see the human being inside of them.

B (118:56)

It's there.

A (118:57)

It's like.

B (118:57)

It's like somebody's told it. Somebody's told that person that the truth isn't okay. Huh? Like, you got to be like this. You got to have this facade. That's the way to be somebody's. Something's taught them that in life right away of, like, self protection.

A (119:13)

I think it's often abuse, in a way.

B (119:16)

Yeah.

A (119:16)

And now that's a. That's a harsh word, but I think it's a broad term to you, right? It's a broad term, but it's like, again, you see this with dogs that have just been beaten repeatedly.

B (119:27)

What do they do when. When you come into the dog, into.

A (119:30)

The room, they cower. Yeah. They're like, hey, hey. It's. It's. It's. It's similar with human nature. It's like, it's similar people. I mean, it's. And I've. I've seen it. Like, I've been an employer long enough to see it now when you bring people in here and you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not going to hit you. We're not going to. Like, why. Why are you cowering right now?

B (119:50)

Like, I mean, trying to hide that mistake.

A (119:52)

Yeah.

B (119:52)

I don't actually care about that. Yeah.

A (119:53)

We're not. I'm not. No, no, no. That's not what's going to happen. But then you can take it personally. You can think, oh, they don't trust me. And it's like, well, of course they don't trust me because they've had 11 shitty employers.

B (120:05)

Yeah.

A (120:06)

And so they have all this abuse that I've got to unwind. And it's my responsibility to demonstrate to them that I'm trustworthy by acting in a consistent nature for a long duration of time, which then allows them to be. Okay. Wow, this is actually safer. And I can actually just say, like, be a human being. Oh, very good. And then you get some really special shit as a result. Yeah, but that, that. That's sometimes a long process.

B (120:41)

Yeah. Yeah, it is a long process.

A (120:43)

Yeah. Well, and again, going back to the constraints of business, like, sometimes you don't have that time. Yeah, that's just reality.

B (120:51)

That's just reality. What do you do with that?

A (120:53)

Right, so anyway, people, if they want to listen to the podcast, it's the impact chamber.

B (121:02)

Yep. Apple, Spotify, excellent. There.

A (121:06)

LinkedIn.

B (121:07)

LinkedIn.

A (121:08)

Just search your name, you'll find Jared Koepfer. The company.

B (121:11)

Arrow crushing without a W. Arrow Crushing. Not sure why.

A (121:14)

Yeah, well, you've got it now. You're stuck with it.

B (121:17)

Yeah.

A (121:18)

And you're out of what area specifically?

B (121:20)

Southern Ontario. Southern Ontario, yeah. Hour from the gta. Very good Toronto area.

A (121:26)

Excellent. Well, appreciate driving down anytime.

B (121:30)

Yeah, it's a beautiful drive.

A (121:31)

Oh, this is.

B (121:32)

Yeah.

A (121:32)

And it's been great talking with you. Glad you about your spouse so you can enjoy the city. Hopefully.

B (121:38)

Yes.

A (121:39)

And hopefully we'll see you all soon.

B (121:41)

Yeah, sounds good. Thanks a lot for having me.