Joe Pehanick w/ East Bay Tire – DT 388

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – Ep. 388

Guest: Joe Pehanick, CEO of East Bay Tire
Host: Aaron Witt
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Aaron Witt and Joe Pehanick (CEO, East Bay Tire), exploring the "unsexy but essential" world of tires. The discussion covers how East Bay Tire is modernizing a legacy business, the critical role of tires in infrastructure and supply chains, the unique business challenges in Hawaii and California, tire manufacturing, recycling conundrums, operational data, and the importance of authentic leadership in the dirt world. The conversation is rich with practical insights and candid moments.

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Key Discussion Topics & Insights

1. East Bay Tire: A Legacy Built on Evolution

• Company History & Market Presence
  • East Bay Tire, started by Joe’s great-grandfather in 1946, originally dealt in used tires, evolving into a new tire distributor, and expanding services over decades ([05:24]–[07:00]).
  • Deep ties to Hawaii, established through postwar trade and extended stopovers, with formal expansion and distribution in the late 1980s and 1990s.

"My great grandfather, Joseph Fuch, when he started the business in 1946...would fly to Japan and pull used tires back from the war zones...We've been there really doing business since the 50s."
— Joe Pehanick, [05:24]

• Modernization: Joe, a next-gen leader, is steering East Bay Tire toward being more data-driven, customer-educational, brand-agnostic, and value-focused rather than just selling and servicing tires.

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2. Business in Hawaii & California: Unique Challenges

• The team explores the profound logistical and socioeconomic difficulties of operating in both Hawaii and California:
  • Cost of Living and Infrastructure in Hawaii: Difficulty for locals to remain, post-fire rebuild struggles, bureaucracy, and land use controversies ([08:21]–[16:07]).
  • Contrast Between Urban and Rural California: Most of California is agricultural and rural, contrary to outside perception focused on the coast and tech cities ([20:13]–[22:57]).
  • Parent Company’s Need for High Efficiency: “We have to be phenomenal operators...extremely, extremely efficient.” ([16:30], Joe)

"You have to be pretty good to survive [in Hawaii and California]."
— Aaron Witt, [16:20]

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3. The Tire Business: Complexity, Scale, and Impact

• Customer Base: Spans OE manufacturers, dealers, end users (mining, ag, trucking, golf courses), and more ([17:15]–[18:37]).
• Tire Applications: Each sector views and values tires differently; e.g. golf versus quarry ([18:24]–[19:36]).
• Tracks and Emerging Needs: Adapting to customer needs across sectors, including crossover specialties like rubber tracks ([19:36]–[19:45]).

"We think we sell tires. We service a thousand different industries."
— Joe Pehanick, [18:24]

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4. How Tires Move the World

• Critical Role in Supply Chains:
  • Tires are central to logistics (trucking, ports, agriculture), with maintenance, durability, and fuel impact at stake ([23:17]–[27:02]).
  • Heavy transport tire tech has progressed: steer tires, for example, now exceed 200,000 miles with proper maintenance ([25:34]–[25:54]).
• Insights on Trucking Industry:
  • Over-the-road Class 8 trucking is East Bay’s biggest segment.
  • Trailer tires, despite being chosen for cost, account for 42.5% of a unit’s fuel impact ([26:26]–[26:58]).

"The heartbeat of our consumerism is over-the-road trucking."
— Joe Pehanick, [28:46]

"Drives and trailers are each 42.5% [of the fuel impact], and then steer is the 15."
— Joe Pehanick, [26:55]

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5. Tire Manufacturing, Science & Sustainability

• Rubber Origins: Field observations about rubber and palm oil plantations in Southeast Asia; raw latex harvesting still rudimentary ([36:29]–[37:11]).
• Tire Construction: Detailed look at tire structure—cords, beads, treads, and compounding ([43:14]–[45:00], [46:11]–[47:10]).
  • Vulcanization: Energy-intensive, slow process—ripe for innovation ([46:26]–[47:10]).
• Retreading: Declining in trucking, uneconomical or impractical for large mining tires. Complex materials make recycling tough ([41:44]–[54:26]).
• Disposal/Recycling Issues:
  • Heavy tires often used to construct walls at mine sites.
  • Few real recycling uses exist; most post-life solutions involve shredding or improper disposal, both costly ([48:13]–[50:04], [53:01]–[53:28]).

"The industry does not have an end game on [tire recycling]."
— Joe Pehanick, [52:59]

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6. Operational Data and Customer-Centric Service

• Data as Differentiator:
  • East Bay’s investment in real-world, brand-agnostic data collection (mileage, hours, KPIs) is used to help customers select and maintain optimal tires, track performance, and reduce costs ([63:43]–[64:52], [88:14]–[90:13]).
• Application Matters:
  • Right tire for the right operation (e.g., L5 loader tire’s design speed); user and operating errors (haul road quality, improper operator technique) directly impact tire life ([65:16]–[69:51], [71:14]–[74:06]).
• Mining vs Civil Construction:
  • Mining’s culture of optimization and granular operational data compared to civil construction’s more traditional approach ([76:28]–[81:15], [82:04]–[86:12]).

"Comparing one tire to another tire in the exact same application, because that's what it all comes down to..."
— Joe Pehanick, [64:43]

"Big, big, long-term decisions...that could really change their budget—we basically need at least a full year [of data]."
— Joe Pehanick, [89:59]

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7. Leadership, Culture & Authenticity

• The Human Element:
  • Success in dirt world businesses is rooted in leaders genuinely engaged in the business and the field, not just the office—ownership, values, presence, and "walking the floor" ([103:17]–[104:59], [105:38]–[111:37], [112:03]–[113:40]).
• Contrast with Big Corp:
  • Discussion of ego, corporate Kool-Aid, and stifling of individualism at large companies versus the authenticity possible in private, family businesses ([92:48]–[100:01]).
• Generational Stewardship:
  • Joe shares his perspective as a next-gen leader both honoring and evolving his family's legacy ([115:04]–[117:24]).

"You can't fake passion. And you'll see it in people's actions."
— Joe Pehanick, [111:55]

"I love people who live and breathe anything...just in, into something. All in."
— Joe Pehanick, [114:19]

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8. Podcasts, Communication & Purpose

• Podcasting for Impact—Not Ego or Reach:
  • Both host and guest emphasize that success should be measured by real value delivered—even if only a few niche listeners benefit ([119:52]–[122:17]).
  • The importance of genuine, human communication in an era of AI/ChatGPT/outsourcing content ([131:49]–[134:39]).

"Speaking and writing is the thought process. Is your thought process...If you remove that [with AI], you're removing the thinking part."
— Aaron Witt, [132:00]

• Leadership Tip:
  • Giving voice and recognition to frontline employees, whether through training or simply listening, creates lasting value ([107:26]–[108:31]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tires’ Centrality:

  • "The whole world moves on tires. Joe certainly hasn't underappreciated that, and he's trying to build appreciation everywhere he goes."
    — Aaron Witt [00:00]

• On Hawaii’s Cost of Living:

  • "I've seen actual rentals for $1,500 a month for a home like this. It's a side shed. And this would be a luxury side shed in some parts of Maui."
    — Joe Pehanick [09:23]

• On Industrial Realities:

  • "Driving through Silicon Valley...people think this is how the world works. No, no, no, no, no. Like the Port of Long Beach, big ships, containers, cranes...this is what keeps our whole world going."
    — Aaron Witt [27:02]

• On the Role of Leadership:

  • "You've got to be in the business. And so many leaders are not even remotely close to the business."
    — Aaron Witt [103:17]

• On Application-Specific Problem Solving:

  • "It's not the tire’s fault. It's the tire dealer for not either a, having the breadth of options, and/or knowing that this option is a better fit for this application versus this application."
    — Joe Pehanick [64:43]

• On Passion and Culture:

  • "I love people who live and breathe anything...just in, into something all in. Those people are awesome."
    — Joe Pehanick [114:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origins of East Bay Tire, Family Legacy: [05:24]
• Hawaii Business/Infrastructure Insights: [08:21]–[16:07]
• Differences: Rural, Urban California: [20:13]–[22:57]
• Supply Chains, Importance of Truck Tires, and Stats: [23:17]–[27:02]
• Contemporary Tire Manufacturing Explained: [36:29]–[47:10]
• Retreading and Sustainability Challenges: [41:44]–[54:26]
• Brand-Agnostic, Data-Driven Service Model: [63:43]–[64:52], [88:14]–[90:13]
• Why Operations Succeed or Fail: Application, Culture, Data: [71:14]–[74:06], [76:28]–[86:12]
• Mining vs Civil Construction, Operational Learnings: [81:15]–[86:12]
• Leadership, Presence, and Family: [103:17]–[113:40]
• Podcasting, Communication, and AI Cautions: [119:52]–[134:39]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, candid window into the tire industry and its intersection with construction, mining, and logistics. Joe Pehanick advocates for a service- and data-driven approach while emphasizing the human connections, humility, and hands-on leadership that produce lasting business success. Both Aaron and Joe deliver actionable wisdom that applies well beyond the tire rack—straight to building better, people-first companies in the dirt world.

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Find Joe’s podcast: aroundthebead.com | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | YouTube

Connect with Joe:

• LinkedIn (Original posts, no ChatGPT)

Memorable closing:
"Progress over perfection."
— Joe Pehanick, [137:25]

Transcript

[A]

This Dirt Talk podcast episode is with Joe Pahanik of East Bay Tire. Joe is the CEO of East Bay Tire, a California based tire distributor and service provider serving anyone from trucking companies to ports to quarries. With thousands of customers and applications, Joe is taking the company in a more service and data driven direction, aiming to educate customers and provide greater value than the traditional tire model. And while not sexy, the whole world moves on tires. Joe, he is another next gen younger guy that's taken over the reins of a long standing, very successful company. And I said, how do we do this even better. And he's not just said that and done it, but he's been sharing it, which is what caught my attention. Over the past year or two, it's been a blast to see him educating people on tires. I, along with a lot of other people have totally underappreciated how important these rubber circle things are to day to day life. But he certainly hasn't and he is trying to build appreciation everywhere he goes. So I had a blast with this podcast. I hope you have a blast listening to it. And listen. And let's get right into it. How often do you go to Hawaii?

[B]

I try and get over there at least six times a year.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

The flights, the flights are better now. Yeah. Southwest is now competing. It used to be just Hawaiian and now Southwest, you can, can get over there for very, very economical pricing. Direct to Kona, direct to Kauai, direct to Oahu, from sfo, from Sack.

[A]

From Sack.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. And Sack, you can fly Kona to.

[A]

From Sacramento, direct. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Sunday, Sunday morning, I can see the kids in the morning and then I can fly directly over there. Be there, be there by noon.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's what, five hour flight?

[B]

Six hour flight, if that. Yeah.

[A]

And then wind, you're going back three hours.

[B]

Depends on daylight savings or not. Sometimes it's three. Yeah.

[A]

They're one of the only smart states.

[B]

Yeah. I'll usually fly into Kona and then so we have apartment in Kona.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is nice. I mean you spend a bunch of time in hotel rooms like just to be in an apartment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've got a location on Kona and Hilo. Right. So both sides of that island. Then I'll go to Maui, then I'll go to Oahu, fly out Oahu home.

[A]

Oh wow. So you'll do. You'll bounce through typically when you're there.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Four stores there.

[A]

It's Hawaii is interesting cuz each island's totally different.

[B]

Even hilo to Kona is different. Yeah, different.

[A]

There's.

[B]

There's people. I think. I think Big Island's one of the most beautiful places in the world.

[A]

Really? I've never been to the Big Island.

[B]

Oh, you gotta go.

[A]

That's a bummer.

[B]

Really. I've never.

[A]

I've never been to Kauai either.

[B]

Yeah, it's a bummer. Yeah, Kauai's. Kauai's. Oh, I forget the population. I can't. I can't be quoted, but I think it's like 20. Eh. Might be 30,000.

[A]

Pretty rural.

[B]

Kona is. Was 18,000, 17,000 before COVID For 20, 20 ballooned to like 23,000.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And 4, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000. Doesn't seem like a lot. It was huge for Kona. But there's people who live in Kona who have never been to Hilo. There's people in Hilo who have never been to Kona. It's the same island.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like a two, three hour drive.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. And the drive is. Is between two of the biggest volcanoes and through an air base. There's an air base on top. So you drive. You drive it. You drive at sunset. Sunset or sunrise, early morning. It's one of the most beautiful drives you'll ever take in your life. And you get to see the bases where they have. They're basically like looking at stars that are astronomy bases on the volcanoes because it's the highest point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Um, and then if you're lucky, you'll get to see the United States Air Force do badass practice missions.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

On top.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Hawaii is, I think, the most secluded place in the world. Most secluded, major population in the world.

[B]

Yeah, I could believe that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not like the most secluded secluded, but yeah, the most secluded. Yeah. Major. Major population anywhere on the. In the world.

[B]

I can believe that. Yeah.

[A]

It's out there.

[B]

If you drive. So that's if you drive from Hilo to Kona, the south route where you go around the island. Yeah. You'll go to some places where people have not seen. They only see motor vehicles if they're getting deliveries or services. Yeah, I mean, it's just all cattle ranches. Macadamia nut coffee.

[A]

Yeah. How long have you guys been in Hawaii?

[B]

We've been. We've kind of been in Hawaii since we started. So my great grandfather, Joseph Fuch, when he started the business in 1946, you were really as a tire dealer, you were looking for Used tires because there wasn't enough production domestically to supply everything commercial. And then everybody was buying cars for the first time. So. So he would fly to Japan and pull used tires back from the war zones and then began a relationship with Mr. Ishibashi Stonebridge, the founder of Bridgestone, to import Japanese tires, which were barely being produced at the time. But to get there, you didn't have like we have now, direct flight over the Pacific. You had to stop in Hawaii. And it's not like you had a, you know, three hour layover. You had a three day layover between the next flight. And so these guys would always do business wherever they were at. So, okay, I got three days in Hawaii. I'm gonna go talk to tire dealers in Hawaii to see if they want to buy any used tires. So we've been there really doing business since the 50s, but it was late 80s that we really started to expand and then we opened distribution in the 90s.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you couldn't be in two different worlds, different markets. I mean, the, the difference between California and in Hawaii, just in general is. It's a pretty stark contrast. But just from a. Even just like a vehicle standpoint, transportation standpoint, Totally different world.

[B]

Yeah, okay, I see that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean it's. Is, is it that different though?

[B]

There's some parallels. Like if you were to look at Metro east coast, that would probably be even more dramatic of a contrast. But yeah, they keep vehicles over there forever. There's no electric vehicles because there's not service for it.

[A]

Well, they still power almost the whole state off. Diesel.

[B]

The diesel, yes. They have diesel generators that are powering batteries or. Yeah. Then giving them electric power.

[A]

Yeah. They don't. It's one of the only places in the United States that's actually run on. Yeah. Diesel fuel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The whole place. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, the whole place. Every. A lot of people have solar on their homes.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because it's so expensive. Because you're burning diesel. Yeah.

[A]

Well, everything expensive there.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Yeah. Just the cost of everything there is.

[B]

It used to be the most expensive 40 foot container out in the world. California to Hawaii.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. I know.

[B]

There's only two people who do it, Pasha and Matson.

[A]

Mmm. Well.

[B]

And yeah, it's.

[A]

When there's two people doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Business. But, but, but it's a real problem there, like livability for people from Hawaii. It's a huge issue. Like, I know on Maui, obviously Maui, you have very wealthy people, Oprah, etcetera, setting up Shop there. The amount of money, you know, beyond Wailea, for example, it's just. It's a lot of money out there.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

Then you've got the. I would say like middle, upper class. Upper class folks coming to vacation typically either like wealthier people with young kids or old people. I found the two categories of people in Hawaii setting up.

[B]

You might get a honeymooner or two.

[A]

And honeymooners too. Yes, yes, honeymooners. That's the third category. Going to like a Kapalua or a Wailea or something like that. But then you still have this huge permanent population there that's essentially been in a lot of ways just priced out.

[B]

Like, priced out is a nice way of saying it. Yeah, this is true for a lot of Hawaii. But Maui is an extreme. Or Big island has the same thing. You have everybody from Larry Elson, Michael Dell lives over there, throw $100 million like it's no big deal at a new property. Sure, Zuckerberg's got a huge compound going in, but what is this? This room's eight by eight. Yeah, I've seen some. I've seen actual rentals for $1,500 a month for a home like this. It's a side shed. And this would be a luxury side shed in some parts of Maui.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Absolutely. Completely priced out. And it almost feels like there's no way out if you're in that role because you can't accumulate enough to make a change. You're there for the lifestyle, obviously, but the pricing has gotten out of control. It's hard for people to live.

[A]

You're there for the lifestyle. Unless your family's been there for four generations, which is a lot of them is a ton. Yeah, it's very generational there. And then if you were one of the people in Lahaina, for example, your house just burned down. Now, one, where do you go? Because it's not like there's just ample places to hang out in Maui.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Two, now you've got to go fight with the insurance companies to even get. Get money back. Like, God help you even just that alone. Good luck. Three, what you're going to get back will not be able to replace your house because building costs are so expensive and everybody else is trying to build. And so even if you could find the materials and people to build the house, you're not gonna have.

[B]

It's impossible.

[A]

It's impossible. It doesn't work out financially. Four, you can't even get a building permit. When I was there earlier this year, all the homes getting built, no Permits. They've basically said the government's been no help. Yeah. They've said, you know, like, what do you want us to do? We're just going to hang out and wait for you to permit things. It's like, it's been. It's been this long after we can't get a building permit. I'm not waiting for you. If you want to do something about it, do something about it. But we're going to go rebuild. So all the homes are getting built without permits.

[B]

I mean, you're articulating it better than I could, but that's exactly what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you watched any of the congressional hearings or any of the locals talk about this ag land play that's happening? This is. This is a rabbit hole that you can really go down.

[A]

I like rabbit holes.

[B]

Okay. So the rabbit hole is that big. Big equity, big private equity funds, whatever you want to. Want to go down that road.

[A]

The evil party is what I call it.

[B]

Yeah. Have been buying up mass quantities of ag land under the premise of farming. And they are farming it. And so some of my guys know that I've had a little bit of this conspiracy theory for some time because I come from California farmland. I've lived in farmland. It's been part of my family, been part of my. Wherever I've been at. And we drive by and I'm like, who's farming this? There's no fruit. Nobody's irrigating this property. There's a $500,000 sprayer parked in the middle of nowhere, broken, and they're spraying a field that they're not even going to harvest anything on. It's like they're just making this up as they go along. And so if you Google Hawaiian congressional hearings, ag land, you'll see some of the locals talking about how people are buying up this ag land, pretending to farm it, ultimately to turn it into residential land sale. And you go there enough, drive Maui, and it'll just click. You go up and see how expensive things are in the highlands, and nobody can afford it, and people are doing everything without permits. And then you look at all the ag land and start looking at the fruit, see if there is any. Talk to people. Talk to the locals. Hey, is any of this getting harvested? No, nobody's picking it.

[A]

Because that is the interesting. One of the striking things about Maui is how much land there is there and how many. Like even driving from the airport to Lahaina, just how many giant swaths of land. And even outside of Lahaina, Just how much land there is just vacant, vacant, seemingly vacant land all over the place that's totally undeveloped. So it's not, it's not really a shortage of land. There is at least my read on it. That's not what it looks like. No, the. Well, he's interesting too because it's the whole downtown which is along the water burned so it just was vaporized, the whole downtown area. But then now the drama is they want a hundred. It's like 100 foot setback from the ocean which is now like the new standard there. So the government's saying well you need a hundred foot setback. But the. All half of the street, so it's this one main street built along the ocean. You, you know, you spent plenty of time there. I'm sure the whole main street is right along the ocean. And so you've half the businesses on. In line on that main street within now this new setback.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then okay, so we're going to have the setback. So that pushes these businesses into the street. You have to push the street into the other businesses. You have to push the businesses into other businesses. But it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. So the whole downtown is still. There's just. At least when I was there last and to my knowledge it hasn't changed. There's just a fence around it like this shitty chain link fence. And it's all just this wasteland that is completely untouched. No one has built a single thing because there's this drama over. Over a setback.

[B]

It.

[A]

It.

[B]

A lot of people don't think it'll ever get. I don't think so rebuilt that bureaucracy will take over. And if this is where we're at, if we're at 100 foot setback now, now you only have so many people in Hawaii. You only have so many resources. Whether it's contractors or government officials, this is their priority. By the time they get this, this thing even remotely done, housing costs will quintuple.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's. Anyway, I didn't expect we'd be talking housing prices in Hawaii, but all of this is to illustrate your businesses. Hawaii, California.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which are two of the hardest places in the United States to do business, I would say.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which means you have to be pretty good to survive.

[B]

We. We.

[A]

You.

[B]

You're reading my mind. We feel that way. Right. We have to be phenomenal operators. We do have a location in Arizona and that ties to Salinas AG Land, the Lettuce bowl but yeah, we have to be extremely, extremely efficient.

[A]

Yeah, it's. And you.

[B]

And a great employer.

[A]

Yeah, it's very. It's crazy competitive. You, Your whole business is tires and mechanical. And mechanical, yeah. And you do anything from truck tires, semis, to mining truck tires.

[B]

Yeah. To golf cart tires.

[A]

To golf cart tires, of course.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I try and describe it that we supply those who build the machines, those who sell the machines, those who service the machines, and those who use the machines. So we have original equipment division. We do tires and wheels, hubs and axles for what they call OE2, which is not John Deere, not Cat, but smaller original equipment manufacturers. Really, really cool business. It's generally a farmer, a contractor who was a better engineer than he was a businessman and went into building a better machine or a better implement or whatever. It is really, really, really cool to talk to those guys. And then you got the equipment dealers. So the whole world is kind of run by equipment dealers in that segment, whether it's ag or heavy equipment. And then you've got tire dealers, and then you've got the end users themselves. Contractors, mining companies, farming companies, golf courses, you name it.

[A]

So it's a huge. It's a huge customer base you guys have.

[B]

Yeah, we. And we even struggle with this internally of, hey, we think we sell tires. We service a thousand different industries. And the golf course is going to value and look at tires completely different than a quarry.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The. Yeah. Golf course. The tire use case is a little different.

[B]

Yeah, we talk about this when it comes to tracks. Right. So tracks in the ag world, rubber tracks, is relatively substantial now. But a farmer looks at his. He doesn't look at tracks versus tires like we do in our industry. He looks at it. That's my equipment. I'm gonna call my rubber guy. I'm gonna call my tire guy. And so that's how we ended up getting into Trax is even though the industry viewed it completely differently and wanted a completely different supply chain for it, we're here to service end users. We're here to service customers, even the dealers who say, well, I'm getting a call. This guy's got compact Trax Mini X went kaboom overnight. It felt like, okay, you have to learn how to service it. You have to learn what value it brings to the end user. You have to supply it.

[A]

California is a really like. So we talked Hawaii. California is a really interesting market too. I think people beat up a lot on California, which is deserved in a lot of Ways. And then in other ways, I feel like it's undeserved. I think it's like a lot of the things I say, I hear about it. It's kind of ignorant in a way. They think it's. People think it's just LA and San Francisco in most of the time. And most people that have been to California have only really been to, like, LA or San Francisco or Bay Area or maybe San Diego.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But most of California is pretty rural, and most of California is ag 100%. And that's what people don't realize. Like, you go to the Central Valley and it is a different. Like I was telling you at dinner last night, we drove from, like, outside of Fresno. It's like Visalia, maybe. Yeah, it's like east. East of Fresno. Is that right? Or am I. Am I mic.

[B]

Visalia is south of Fresno. East of Fresno.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, southeast of Fresno.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With Josh McKay Hill. And he has an ag business out there. So we were out there and then we drove to downtown San Francisco. And it's not that far of a drive, like, as a crow flies. It's really not that far. But just the difference between those two worlds, it. There could not be a bigger gap.

[B]

It's a huge state. Right. You look at Twitter X, you look at mainstream media, you're going to get San Francisco and la.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The coffee I had this morning, the guy asked me, he's like, oh, where are you from? I said, I'm from California. He gave me like, the. The Nashville, Tennessee face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you're from California. Yeah, like from. From outside of Napa. He was.

[A]

He's probably from California too, in fairness, guy. Yeah, probably.

[B]

But I said, not the. Not the part of California that you see on tv. And he's like, all right. Right. Cool, man. But no, it is. It's massive amount of ag land. It's the largest agricultural state in the country. And I've done that drive, of course, a number of times. I lived in Central Valley for better part of 15 years. I drove that from Fresno to San Francisco in 2020, in two and a half hours, whole world was shut down. Our business was up upside down. We had half of our stores basically in the Bay Area shut down, because that's what the Bay Area did. But meanwhile, Fresno was still going. AG's not going to stop. And that drive was to PG and E and San Francisco was a ghost town. So two polar opposite worlds.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But even you look at the. Like, a lot of people have cited the, like the. The Electoral map of California.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the past election and how a majority of California is read. And it's like, well, how can this be? And it's like, well, just, just drive. What is it, the 99 down the central Valley? Yeah, like just, just drive that you'll know pretty quick. Like just go outside the cities. And it's not, it's not that hard to figure out because it's, it's pretty, it's pretty old school Western.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Most of the state, and it's very. California too, is very industrial. Like it, as you know, it gets all the technology stuff soaks up all of the PR and press big time. But there's huge, there's still huge industry in California even beyond ag.

[B]

Well, look at the ports. So Long beach is big. Well, you have a long. Oakland, Southern California, Northern California. Portland. Seattle is the biggest port market in the US Depending on like what measurements you're doing there. But yeah, it's everything from Asia coming through the West. It's changed our whole world over the last 20 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think we all realize how much globalization has affected us each individually. But for, for us, that's trucks, that's forklifts, that's tons of equipment. Tilt ups beyond belief. I don't know what they're going to do with all these tilt ups. Everywhere I look, there's more and more warehouses. Warehouses.

[A]

Warehouses. Well, you look at the numbers from a vacancy standpoint, it's a little troubling because some of the developers got a little out ahead of their skis and went a little too speculative.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you have the numbers because that was just a heuristic feel on my part.

[A]

Oh, it's.

[B]

I see empty warehouses all over the place.

[A]

Yeah. A friend of mine, they're, I mean, they're probably the biggest, one of the biggest real estate folks in the Southwest. And he said the vacancy rate in Phoenix, their market is wild, troubling.

[B]

Got overbuilt really fast. I mean, everybody seemed to move to Phoenix.

[A]

Yeah. What's the biggest part of your business? Over the road?

[B]

Yeah. Trucking. Trucking. From a, from a unit's standpoint, Class 8 trucking.

[A]

And so it's, you know, you've got 18 tires on each truck. And what do you, what do you typically replace those at 50,000 miles?

[B]

No, you know, there's a big variation in mileage, which I think is really interesting about that industry, which is challenged right now, which is a good time for us to show our value. Right. Everybody's looking to cut costs. Where do you start? But a steer tire, long. Let's just say long haul. So there's Class 8 for construction, there's Class 8 for forestry. But if we're looking at just over the road, the truck that is Walmart, that is delivering a dry van from one spot to another stop so that we can get our Amazon delivery the next day.

[A]

Yeah. The semi that will not get out of the left lane on the interstate.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. They. Yeah. 18 tires. The steer tires. The two best steer tires in the world will run over 200,000 miles in that application. And that's a pretty big change. I think we underplay it in the industry. It used to be 60 or 70.

[A]

That's what I thought it was, you.

[B]

Know, 15 years ago. But proper maintenance, proper alignment. We have data out to 270. There's only two manufacturers that really play in that segment.

[A]

Bridgestone and Michelin.

[B]

Actually Goodyear and Michelin. On that specific tire, Goodyear. Bridget's not far behind on the steer tire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Drives are. You can get. There's people who say they get 400,000 out of a drive tire.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Y.

[A]

And then you have the tires on the trailer.

[B]

Yeah. The trailer, which is the dynamic with that is. A lot of people don't own their own trailers anymore. Right. So they want to put the cheapest thing on because it's somebody else's and it's just one tire at a time. But it's 42.5% of the fuel impact to the overall truck and trailer unit. So drives. Drives and trailers are each 42 and a half each. And then steer is the 15.

[A]

So the better tires on the trailer, the better fuel efficiency overall.

[B]

Yeah. Huge impact on fuel efficiency.

[A]

Wow. The trucking is a. Is a whole fascinating world that I don't really understand. I love. I'm most known for earth moving because that's really my. My love. But I love any heavy industry. I just love learning how the world works. So it's like we were at the Port of Long beach in May. There's like few cooler places in the world I've been to than a giant port and like the Port of Long beach because everywhere you look there's just like. It's so cool to me because it's. This is how the world works. Like driving through Silicon Valley or something like that. It's like people think this is how the world works. No, no, no, no, no. Like the Port of Long Beach. Big ships, containers, cranes, forklifts, trucks, like like, you know, the railroad coming and going, and it's like, this is what keeps our whole world going. And when I'm driving, which I do a lot of, I hate trucks. I. I hate trucks so much. They're just the worst. But I also. I remind myself every time there's a truck driver with, like, a seemingly negative IQ doing something, you know, some. Some. And I'm being, you know, silly, but I remind myself, it's like, oh, I am. I am facilitating part of this because I am a consumer. So, like, these trucks are why my life is so comfortable.

[B]

You're giving my argument for what I tell everybody when they. They come into a dinner or whatever social event. They're like, oh, this freaking truck driver on the side of the road.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's. That's how we get everything. Yes. Like that. That is the heartbeat of our consumerism is over the road. Trucking.

[A]

Yep. Well, the railroads would. Would say, well, us too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Don't forget about us.

[B]

Well, they. Yeah, yeah. They're in it for the money, not for the pr.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And that's. It's just a totally different world. But all that to say, I just. I love heavy industry because it's what keeps the world moving and all the AI stuff and this. And that's like, okay, yeah, it's cool. Is it going to change things? Absolutely. But people still need food. People still need shelter. People still need water. There's these basic needs that still need to be met.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that. Industry does that, and industry will always do that, in my opinion.

[B]

Transportation is kind of boring. Is very much an efficiency game. But what it does for our world economy is unbelievable. I mean, taking something from China, from Southeast Asia, or from Salinas, how do you get. Salinas is the lettuce bowl of the United States. It's where. Don't quote me on the percentage, but supposedly 90% of produce comes from. How do we get produce in the winter? Yeah, that's in Yuma. Arizona has the same exact climate for the other half of the year that Salinas does. We're in Yuma because we have customers out of Salinas who want to move their equipment there and they want the same service. But how Nashville will get lettuce for the most part in December is. It'll come from Yuma. Yeah, well, it's like that whole transportation cycle is wild to me.

[A]

And that's a great example. Like, I was at the grocery store not long ago, and they. I needed avocados, and they had just gotten a shipment of Avocados. So they were not at all ripe, like hard avocados.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm sitting there and I was like, fuck. Like I wanted to have an avocado tomorrow, but this is just not ripe at all. And then I'm sitting there and then I like, I'm just like kind of slap myself mentally. I'm like, you, you idiot. This is the. The most first world problem imaginable. I'm sitting here upset in Nashville, Tennessee because my avocado is not ripe enough. And it's probably from Mexico or maybe California. Probably Mexico.

[B]

Documentary on that.

[A]

I like California avocados, though.

[B]

They're great.

[A]

I have a friend that grows them out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's just that alone is extraordinary. Or, you know, when I started spending more time in Australia. Australia is almost halfway around the world. From Nashville, Tennessee, Western Australia is almost exactly halfway around the world.

[B]

How do you. Where do you have. What's your flight to get there?

[A]

There's a few ways you can do for Western Australia. We just did. It's two hours to Dallas, 17 hours Dallas to Melbourne and then 5ish hours Melbourne to Perth.

[B]

That's pretty long flight. 17 hours. Because the. I think San Francisco, Singapore is the next longest. Yeah, it's 1755 or something.

[A]

It's one of the five longest flights in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think might be JFK to Singapore is the longest. United, Dallas, that's American. Or Qantas.

[B]

Qantas, yeah.

[A]

Qantas was that. But anyway, I started spending more time in Australia, so I'd be cooking there and I'd be eating the exact same thing that I would eat in America. I'd make all the same meals. I'd go to the grocery store, I'd buy all the same vegetables, all the same meat. Yeah, everything was the same. It's much better quality in Australia than it is America. Our food is trash. But it was all the same. And even just that alone was unbelievable to me that it's like I'm halfway around the world and I'm eating exactly what I would be eating at home. Exactly. Nothing about it is different. And that is. In some ways, I think people might say that's bad. But to me, that was just like, this is. It's such a modern marvel that I have the ability to eat all of the same shit in a completely different place on planet Earth. Because that's just not how agriculture actually works.

[B]

No, it's. It's wild. It really is. And I don't. We don't talk enough about it, but I mean there's not much to talk about. It's. It's an amazing feat in supply chain.

[A]

Yeah. And you help facilitate that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That's our. I mean our mission statement is support America's infrastructure and keep essential industries moving forward.

[A]

That's pretty good.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It is. Tires though are. I feel like a underappreciated resource.

[B]

We would feel that way. Yeah. I mean if you think of building a new town today, you're going to have a grocery store, you're going to have. You still have fuel station, you're still going to have a tire store. Yeah, it's. It's required for. For most industries, but ultra niche. Niche. We talked a little bit about this last night and one of the examples I give people, especially in HR is construction has what, a 5,000, 6,000 year head start on tires. Like our industry is super new. We're 75 years into this at best. That maturity cycle is just beginning. And take construction for Sacramento market. There's. How many. How many general. General labor construction persons do you think are in Sacramento?

[A]

I mean a lot.

[B]

50,000.

[A]

Yeah. Tens of thousands. Tens of thousands.

[B]

Yeah. There are give or take less than 50 commercial tire guys.

[A]

It's just crazy. I had no idea it was actually like that.

[B]

Yeah. So we talking with our managers and how important it is to get there. Oh, I just need one more guy. One more guy is a big deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it can allow you to do this much more. And what does it look like for that guy's career path? But my favorite part of the industry is it does. It does resemble the American dream for at least the folks that are within East Bay Tire. We can take somebody who's general labor and we can have them in a truck in six months. And really over the course of. Because we do everything. Because it's not just over the road truck tires because we operate half a million dollar hand trucks to work at mining operations. You can take somebody to six figures plus that never really dreamt of making more than $30 an hour.

[A]

And will a laborer within your business. Is that somebody like in a warehouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Handling tires and.

[B]

Yeah, in the distribution center.

[A]

Distribution center. And so you have these distribution centers which is a building full of tires, essentially.

[B]

Yeah, pretty much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. West coast.

[A]

West coast. Yeah. It is interesting. Yeah. I guess tires and rubber is a new thing. Like rubber itself is a really fascinating commodity because like back in the day it was pretty western. Like whole wars were fought over rubber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean that when we were in Indonesia in July. It was spectacular because if you, if you look out over the landscape, it looks like jungle. But if you start to actually look at the landscape, it's either two things. One, it's palm for palm oil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or two, it's rubber trees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't really, as an American know. Most people don't know what a rubber tree looks like. But once you know what a rubber tree looks like, again you start to look at the landscape. I mean, we drove for at least. We did at least 24 hours of rural driving, maybe 30 or 40 hours of real driving. Almost the whole way was either rubber tree or pond.

[B]

And you look at it and you still look at how it's harvested for the podcast. Right. It's white. It's not black when it comes out. You put carbon black in it to make it black. But the raw materials for a tire are rubber, natural or synthetic carbon, black steel, oil. Those are the major components. And the way that it's harvested with those little bowls. Yes. It's like just dripping out. It's like a. That's, that's why factories will continue to excel. A. One of the reasons why they'll continue to excel overseas is because of that harvesting method and why they're building factories right next to the farms.

[A]

Huh. Well, just how. Yeah. How rudimentary the farms still are. Because it is that the little bowls just hanging on the side of the tree, kind of like collecting maple syrup in a way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not that unsimilar.

[B]

Is very similar.

[A]

Yeah. It just drips in and they just collected over time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some, you know, some, some guy just walks through the jungle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Essentially collecting this and. And then you make tires out of it. It's the primary that, you know, other things are made with rubber, but tires are the bulk of it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And to think that's like that's where it all starts. Is just that even. That was mind blowing to me.

[B]

The pneumatic concept is relatively new.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you're putting air in. In round rubber in order to support weight.

[A]

Yeah. It is pretty wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To think. Yeah. Even. Yeah. 100 years ago.

[B]

Oh, think about. So you. You are much, much more adept and experienced in mining than I ever will be. But look at those haul trucks. Even, even the basic 100 ton haul truck that's running how fast now?

[A]

They'll go 40 miles an hour.

[B]

40 miles.

[A]

40, 45. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And they're all that weight is on a tire.

[A]

Well, and I know that's you know, the truck itself gets all of the. Again, the, the air time. Yeah, that gets all the appreciation. But the, the. It's limited. The trucks now are limited by the tire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's the limiting factor, especially when it comes to weight and duration. Because we were talking earlier as well, like it's not just how much weight can sit on the tire when it's just sitting there, but it's especially during operation when it starts to heat up now you start to have some issues. And that then the physics of it becomes the real limiting factor.

[B]

Ultra class challenged the industry probably more than any other piece of equipment. So when mining just ballooned to ultra class, and we were doing 797s, Cat, everybody built those. We're going to chase. Mining tires weren't ready for that yet. And there were manufacturers who could build it, but they were failing really, really fast. And that's kind of what's exciting about our industry right now is all the manufacturers are challenged to move up to ultra premium. Okay, so for 250,000 miles out of a steer tire or 15,000 hours out of a loader tire, what's next? How do we get to 30,000?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do we get to. Where's the half million mile steer tire?

[A]

That's why. Why does a tire like that last so much longer than a car tire?

[B]

Well, there's no drive axle on a steer. Right. So there's no, there's no driving force. Right. It's just free rolling.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then a line haul versus say a bottom dump fleet. Line hole is just going straight down the freeway. So there's no scrub. So they're. They can do that. Right. It's. It's not getting any friction. Very little. Whereas a bottom dump fleet, they may be happy to get150,000 miles out of the drive and 75 out of the.

[A]

Steer because they're turning so much.

[B]

And then take waste, your garbage trucks. Right. So they put. They're not weighing that stuff. Whether you have rocks in your garbage or you have cardboard from Amazon.

[A]

I usually just put batteries in my garbage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. In California, they're not weighing it, so it's all overloaded. And they. Some of those tires, they get 15,000 miles out of them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Now they're running retreads and they never wear them out. And that's a whole other component. But yeah, the spread is massive.

[A]

Yeah, that's another big part of the industry is the whole retreading thing, which is not in the automotive world. That's not a thing. I don't take my truck in, like, hey, could you retread these tires for me?

[B]

They used to, many, many years ago. Not anymore.

[A]

Not anymore. You just throw those out, quote unquote. Just get brand new ones. Yeah, but in trucks, like, I know a lot of the rubber you see on the side of the interstate is from retreading. Is that correct?

[B]

So nobody has the data on that. And that's a real sensitive subject in the industry. Oh, that's not, you know, that's. That, that could be a new tire. That's not retread. Sure. In fact, there's. There's some good stories in the industry. Anyway, that's a different topic. But yeah, I mean, a lot of them are. It's the rubber that comes that capsule over a used casing, a used tire, and they buff it down and they put new rubber on it. It's almost exclusively like ultra large fleets that do it because they're in a contract that. And they've been doing it for years where it might make sense to them, but it's declining between 2 and 4% a year and doesn't look like it stopped.

[A]

Oh, really? In favor of new tires.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. Because it's the tire there. Like, there's two components to it. And this was something that I just did not at all realize either, until I saw a tire get made. A monitor tire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With Bridgestone. There's the structure of the tire that's very complex.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That has a lot of engineering and a lot of, like, strength to it. Not just through the compounding, but through steel. Yep, a lot of steel.

[B]

Belts, cords, beads.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And. And so you, you build, you build this. There's a structural component to the tire and then the treading on it. That's not anything to do with the structure of the tire at all. Like, I thought that was the tire, but that's just the outside of the tire. That's just. It allows the tire to interact with the ground, but it doesn't. It's not what's doing the heavy lifting, quote, unquote.

[B]

I. I'm gonna make up a metaphor on the spot here. I. I think it would be kind of like a bridge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You can, you can build a bridge a variety of different ways. There are core components that keep the bridge from collapsing, and that's kind of like a tire is. Everybody has different recipes on how you're going to hold that weight, whether that weight is 10,000 pounds or 100,000 pounds. How's this tire going to hold 10,000 pounds. Okay. We're going to put more plies in it. We're going to put more belts in it. We're going to reinforce the bead. We're going to make a stiffer sidewall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're all trying to do it in a way that.

[A]

More science on the compounding.

[B]

Yeah. The compounding is really. How is the. Is the hardness of the rubber, the durometer of the rubber. Harder. Rubber wears longer, but often can. It struggles with friction. Right. So turning.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Right. And it's uncomfortable to drive.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I just. When we saw the big tires get made, it was like, when's it going to look like a tire? It.

[B]

It.

[A]

It goes through almost the whole process. Like, I, I even visually, you're like, is that really a tire? Like, is that.

[B]

You're wondering this whole time as you. You go through. You see, as they build the cords, they've got all these. I don't even know what you call them, the cylinders that are wrapping all this coil in a cold room.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You're like, what are we building here? Yep. And then you see these balloons all over the place. What are we doing here?

[A]

Yeah. And then they're. And then they're like, cutting pieces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To, like, build the tire with these, like, jigsaw pieces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I thought it was a circle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why is that a rectangle?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does this work?

[B]

And then you get it. And then you finally, after you get through all that and you've forgotten all of it, you get into this super hot room that looks like it's from the movie Alien, and they're, like, all gonna build all these aliens that are gonna pop out of these little hot chambers. Yes. And bam. Out here comes a hot tire.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they. They like. It's that final process. It's the. What is it? Vulcanization. Yes, the vulcanization process where. Yeah. They put it into the mold, and then it takes the shape of the mold, which is how they create the treading.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm saying this for podcast standpoint, you know this. But that's why. This is where I learned why tires are have the little hairs on them when they're brand new.

[B]

Yeah. The dimples. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's to allow air to escape during that vulcanization process.

[B]

And then they buff them off, clean them up.

[A]

And then either. Well, yeah, either on big tires, sometimes they just leave them on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or. Yeah, they. But there's no. That's just from that molding. And I'm like oh that I would have never figured that out on my own.

[B]

Interesting. Not interesting. My guess for the future is that that room will be the next evolution of. Of tire manufacturing is they want. They need to figure out a way to use less energy there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To through the vulcanization process and make it faster.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that's probably a majority of the energy within the manufacturing process.

[B]

Absolutely. It's basically cooking a tire. You're basically baking it and it takes.

[A]

The bigger the tire takes longer. It takes a like a lot longer.

[B]

I know you went to a. In South Carolina. You went to Bridgestone where they're building the biggest tires in the world.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't think I've ever seen a tire cook for vulcanize for more than eight hours. I bet some of those tires are full half day.

[A]

I think I feel like it was. Yeah. I'd have to go back and. And like look quote unquote in the notes. But. And they said like a Honda tires like minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A few minutes and it's done. Whereas that. Yeah. They're just cooking in there. Just one tire at a time. And then they stack them as well. These molds. But it's not high production. They're not just churning tires out the other side. That was the other surprising thing about it too. It's not like that many because they're so. They take so much energy and time to make.

[B]

That's. That's all the factories I go through. I look at. This is where it's got to evolve. This is where they want it to evolve. Because if they can lower that energy consumption, they can lower cost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And extremely limited on production. They're cooking all these things. Yes. They can triple stack them, quadruple stack them. But you're still manually pulling those things out. In some cases. It's. Yeah.

[A]

I just know where they have to innovate as well is the materials. Like especially recycling. That's another thing you'll notice when you go to a mine. It's just how many tires are sitting around used tires that you can't do anything with. Like, like. I know, I know there's. They'll say they recycle tires in some ways. They'll shred tires a lot of times. Or like what are the use use cases for shredded tire. I know they make asphalt with it. They make tracks with it.

[B]

Yeah. Those are basically the two cases. That's something that we do. We use ethical methods of disposing of tires. It's really expensive in California. Yep. It's in, in a lot of cases around the world. And the United States, let's just say they disappear the wrong way.

[A]

Well and in the United States a lot of it's like let's send it overseas and disappear it.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah, let's just disappear overseas. Or we do all that and it'll go to overseas different ways that might just be like I got a bunch of tires and I'm just gonna take them to somebody who's gonna take them to somebody who's gonna take them to somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or they get buried. But yeah, it's kind of a, kind of a growing problem globally. There's massive, massive piles in third world countries that they just keep throwing them on and usually it results in a, in a big fire.

[A]

Well actually it burnt. It burns hot too. Rubber. When it goes, it goes. And yeah, yeah. But yeah, that, the mines, every mine I've been to, I mean it's, they just build walls with the tires because there's nothing else to do with them.

[B]

Well think on a mine. So open top container, it's a 40, it's a 20 foot or 40 foot that doesn't have a top on it. So that's how they ship oddball shaped stuff. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Which is one of my favorite things to see on the road. It looks silly.

[B]

Yeah it does. That's how you're going to ship a 797 tire as an open top. You're going to fit two in there I think three maybe for the logistics experts out there. But I think it's two.

[A]

These two.

[B]

To ship those things to someplace else, another continent is probably 12,000 a load. So 6,000 a tire and then each.

[A]

Tire is at least 75 grand.

[B]

It's all contracted through Bridgestone or Michelin or Yokohama. So hard to say what that's for but it would be between 50 and 100.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So yeah, split the difference.

[B]

75. You're dead on. Yeah, but yeah, it's huge cost. And then to break it down and dispose of it which they basically just put them through giant shredders that just rip it apart. I'm gonna do a video on it actually.

[A]

That would be cool to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the, the, I mean most of them I, they, they never leave the site because I feel like you can bury them if when you do go do reclamation like you can just kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Throw them in the ground, bury them. Maybe that's not how they do it but just shipping them off site is so expensive. Maybe they do that the End of the life of the mine. I don't know. But even we would just went to this mine in Australia. It was actually pretty cool. They. I'll show you pictures of it if I have. But they had this whole area. It was like this. It almost looked like a. Like a demolition derby track or something like that. This huge dirt track that the trucks would come in and sweep around and then pull in. And they had multiple lanes. They would pull in for shift change. They would hot seat these trucks. So it's almost like a bus stop. You have the truck drivers, haul truck drivers just waiting.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

For. Then the next truck to drive in, the night shift operator gets off. Day shift operator gets on. Within five minutes the truck's going again. And the whole thing was lined with used tires. Whole thing. But it looks pretty cool because they had them half buried and they, they had people that actually cared about what they were doing. Like sometimes it looks a little janky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But this time it looked really nice. It looked like it was designed this way. It was probably the prettiest used tire engineering I've seen.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

It was really nice. But again, this illustrate. They don't really have anything to do with them.

[B]

The industry does not have an end game on that.

[A]

No, you can't retread those. You can't recycle them.

[B]

Well, you can retread them, but the retreading thing is goofy. So you're going to spend double the fuel. You got to pick them up, drop them off. Right.

[A]

So I see.

[B]

You have to ship them.

[A]

It's just not economical.

[B]

It's not economical. Retreading needs is production, it's manufacturing. So it needs volume. Right. So you again have to have bigger facilities that do more volume. So you. Then you can't have them. Logistically convenient.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you never wear out the retread. So you have to save a certain amount. You can't wear it all the way down. So when you do the math on it and you say, okay, let's say there's three inches of rubber. Well, the mine's going to wear all three inches. Right. $50,000 tire, $75,000. Yeah, we're going to wear it. But if you're going to retread it. Just an example. Oh, I can only use 2 inches because I have to save certain amount in order to buff off, have it be clean and put the new retread on. Plus you have to repair the inside. Right. That's extremely costly. There's damages that happen within the tire, you have a labor component and then you have a risk component to your point of the cap on the side of the road. Hey. The fleet, whether it's a trucking fleet or a mining fleet, is taking the liability of. We chose to remanufacture this versus a new tire.

[A]

Yeah, I know. A few years ago, the industry got into a bit of a pickle because they just couldn't buy tires like during COVID I know big, big tires. You know better than I do.

[B]

Shortages are really common in our industry.

[A]

Because there's only two people making the big tires.

[B]

There's two people making the big tires. But there's. There's shortages on truck tires. There are shortages on 12, 16, five construction skid steer backhoe tires. It happens relatively every five to seven years. The specialty tire market is relatively complex supply chain. But Covid, we shut everything down and then we didn't have the data to turn things back up. So when the world got started again, we didn't know how many Class 8 trucks are on the road. The manufacturers are collecting all this data of what's it, what, how much are they selling out? How much are they producing to the dealer? How much is that dealer selling out to the fleet?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most of the tires they produce now are already pre sold.

[A]

Well, in the within manufacturing there's this lag too. Like for Covid, it was probably really pronounced. That was. Oh, now everybody's buying shit online.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we saw this in warehouse space.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There wasn't enough. Which is why there was this boom for five years. Crazy. That's then resulted in surplus tilt ups.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But you have everybody e commerce goes nuts. Trucks drive e commerce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the manufacturing, it's lagging. It's not ahead of that because it's not predicting. No one could predict that that was gonna play out like that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So that they start making more tires or they can only. You can't really add manufacturing capacity either. Unless you're in China. China can just do whatever they want. They can build whatever in like seven days. But you can only. Even if you ramp all the way back up, you've lost the capacity or you've lost whatever you idled or slowed down. And then you can only go up to a certain limit and you can't exceed that limit. And then the manufacturing itself is, is, is facing supply shortages. Because it's not getting everything from down the road.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's getting everything from all over the world. Which is also coping with the same issues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which then results probably in shortages. The shortages.

[B]

Yeah. And then you, they, they're looking at it from the tire standpoint of, hey, I produce this size tire, but in your world, a Cat 797 tire is going to be used in coal and copper. Not all those things are hitting at the same time.

[A]

Oil, sand. Yeah.

[B]

Oil sands. Right. And so they might look at it as a skew number and say, okay, we need more of this. And then all of a sudden, okay, we don't need that much volume for the oil sands anymore because of something that happened between Canada and the U.S. and boom, they don't need that production. And they've got too many tires.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But on the bigger end, most manufacturers feel like they can't afford to overproduce big tires. It's almost contracted. Like you're going to take these tires, we're going to build them, they're all pre sold.

[A]

It is, it is crazy too. Just the whole tire world. Like we cited the two players, but there's not, there's not that many tire manufacturers.

[B]

Oh, there's a lot when it comes to truck tires and passenger tires.

[A]

What from like China?

[B]

Yeah, they're Chinese companies that have subsidiaries in Vietnam, Cambodia, wherever. Bridgestone. The tier one is what we call it in our world. Right. So a major manufacturer on commercial truck. They are now a third of the market, maybe a little less. 30%.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Tier 2, Yokohama, Toyo. And they have. Some of those guys have like Yokohama has a premium component and they could be considered tier one. But a lot of names that you might recognize, those are 20%, you have 50% that are now everything else.

[A]

Really.

[B]

There's hundreds of them. Hundreds and hundreds.

[A]

Do you guys deal in that kind of stuff too?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And there's probably some good, good brands.

[B]

Not only are there good brands, but the tier one manufacturers build sub brands from the tier three factories.

[A]

I see, I see.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's still. Yeah. So they still control a lot of it.

[B]

No, most of that they're, there's, it's subcontracting. So they're saying, hey, we want to build our brand, we're going to market it. Right. We're going to have a whole marketing team run that brand. We're going to have a different. We're going to outsource the production.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such a wild world.

[B]

Yeah. But it's same same with a premium versus a more economical options. There is value and there are some that are not valuable. Right. They're overpriced for what they do on both ends of the spectrum. And there's some that are really great, that provide a great value to the end user.

[A]

I do think we're. Yeah. A lot of times we're too quick to just write it off, like, oh, it's a lower tier, whatever it is, or, oh, it's coming from China. It's not that great. Whereas again, we were talking at dinner, I haven't seen better manufacturing than in China.

[B]

We did this for years. We said, well, we're not going to do it. We're only going to sell X brands. We're only going to sell American brands. We're only going to sell this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think it's a secret anymore that a lot of the Tier one manufacturers feel like, well, we're not going to play in that segment anymore. And so your AG trailer, he does not, he does not have a need for a trailer tire that could potentially go 400,000 miles.

[A]

Oh, because he doesn't.

[B]

He's not going to drive 400,000 miles. He's going to run it two months out of the year. So the market requires a different option there. And they, A Tier one may say, well, we can't really afford to do that with our marketing budget. You know, we're going to chase ultra premium. And so us as a company, we used to hold our chins up, our noses up really, and say, well, we're only going to sell this because we're this. But we had, we had to adapt to what the market wanted when our customers wanted.

[A]

Well, and you're, you're, you're not beholden like a lot of other dealers to a specific brand.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Which is. You said a majority of the market.

[B]

Majority of the market really is. Yeah. They've got a contract or an agreement in some way to sell one brand. Private equity has certainly changed that in the retail world, but that used to be the retail world. And for better or worse, it's made retail better. Like retail retail tires. So if you want to go in and go get. And we do that too, but if you want to go and get tires for your truck, opening up all the brands for a retailer has made that experience a lot better for the consumer. Consumer.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Whereas 30, 30 years ago, you had to go to a Goodyear store, a Firestone store. Sure, whatever. And not having those options changed that whole experience.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But yes, for us, we consider ourselves brand agnostic. Some manufacturers make great products for these machines, some make better products for these machines. We're trying to focus on the Customer.

[A]

But yeah. Yeah. Your task is to serve the customer from anything at a port to a golf course, to a quarry, to the interstate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No matter what kind of tire, what brand that is, in a lot of ways irrelevant. It's just the result is really what matters.

[B]

Yeah. Which is quite interesting. The solution and the application and the operation itself. There's golf carts at mine sites and they're still going to call us and say hey, we need the golf cart tire.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we need it not to get blown up on our mine site because we have safety concerns. We got rocks everywhere. Can you do something cool to make sure this tire doesn't can go through our quarry? Yeah, we'll figure that out.

[A]

It's amazing though, like again, coming from a very naive perspective, you would just assume that that's how the whole industry works. You have independent tire guys that sell the brands. Like, like a grocery store. You know, you've got all the, all the different brands. Although that's, that's an ignorant comment too because I know that's not how grocery stores work because they're playing games, so on and so forth. But again, you, you, you, you. My example is not very good. I was gonna say you walk down the soda aisle and you have the different choices even though they're all ultimately one company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't tell you that though. But you again, you, you go to the tire shop, you think they have everything and you're gonna get the best for what you need. But that's just not how it works. Because if I go to a tire shop and they just have one, they're gonna potentially give me the best for what I need from that brand. But I'm not even gonna have a consideration for other brands.

[B]

Correct. Yeah. And our next evolution in that is data, as opposed to making the assumption that this is the brand or this is the, the model or whatever that fits is we have a full time data team. All they do is it's an awesome job. I think actually it's a job I wish I had when I was 25. You just run around and track tires in mine sites in trucking fleets and you're getting mileage or hours or whatever KPIs we want or even the customer wants. We do custom KPIs for some mine sites. The. They figure their own costs and we do cost per hour for them. But comparing one tire to another tire in the exact same application, because that's what it all comes down to is that tire in that application could do really well and A different application could do really poor. It's not the tire's fault. It's the tire dealer. For not either a. Having the breadth of options and. Or knowing that this option is a better fit for this application versus this application.

[A]

Yeah, I'm starting to track. Because you have. There are so many different variables and so many different conditions and so many different needs that it's impossible for one manufacturer, one brand to serve every need under the sun.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

It just doesn't work.

[B]

They can't. You know, when. When it gets to specialty, not everybody can produce everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not the volume there. So I'll give you an application example. I'm going to use this water bottle for this example. This camera can see it, I think probably. Okay. So I get a call from a dealer. This is probably five years ago. He says, hey, I got this tire problem. You guys are the distributor of. You're the representative of this tire brand. You need to freaking fix this. So he's a tire dealer and he has a cat 988 that the guy bought brand new and he's got tire issues. And I'm like, okay, hey, which.

[A]

Those are expensive tires.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's high dollar stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like 8,000 to 15,000 a tire.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

Yeah. So you bought a brand new Cat 88 and. And your tires are looking jacked up. You're upset. You called your tire dude. You're like, hey, you need to figure this out. You're the tire guy. He didn't sell you the piece of equipment, but he's the tire guy. So then he calls me, says, hey, you're the bigger tire guy. I need you to figure this out.

[A]

So.

[B]

Okay, well, why don't you send me some pictures? Let me take a look at it. And I've been doing warranties personally for better part of 15 years. It's very, very uncomfortable conversation no matter what. But I get to see a lot of different applications. I get to see a lot of different, you know, basically tire issues. So he sends me the pictures. I say, hey, you know, this is going to be a hard one. But that's a we call L5 Tire. So it's going to be the deepest loader tire that you can buy versus a L4. And it looks like he's running that at basically a higher speed. So an L5 tire is designed to run less than five miles an hour. A lot of times less than three miles an hour.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And it's the same size. Right. Works on the same machine, but the tread Depth difference is maybe half of this water bottle. Okay. Okay. So from, from a naked eye perspective, it's, you know, to operator to a person who bought the machine, to equipment dealer salesperson, makes no difference.

[A]

Just looks like.

[B]

It just, just looks like a tire. A lot of tread designs are actually relatively similar. So I'm giving the news to them. Hey, this is not. The manufacturer's not going to warranty this. Like their tire didn't fail. Their tire was in an application that was going seven, eight miles an hour.

[A]

I see. So they can say, not our problem. You or somebody else made the wrong decision.

[B]

And so who's pro. It's all of our problems as an industry. That's the way I view it. But who's to blame on it? And this is why we reach out to so many equipment dealers is, hey, you're going to sell a Cat 9088, tell us what the application. Just take 10 minutes, tell us what the application is and tell us what tires are on the machine because that's going to cut that. That in that sense it came back to the equipment dealer who awkwardly was a customer of ours. Right. And just was pumped to sell the 988. Throw it in there. Now who pays for that?

[A]

Well, and maybe it's just the tires on the machine in a lot of cases too.

[B]

It was the OE spec tire.

[A]

Yeah, they'll just get, yeah, whatever.

[B]

You get what you get. Now we'll swap, we'll do trades for people. But that's a $60,000 machine mistake for the equipment dealer that has to deal with the end user who said, listen, I told you what my application is like. You've been to my mind site, you've seen where it's going to run. This is what I ordered.

[A]

Hence the awkward conversation.

[B]

Hence the awkward conversation.

[A]

But it is amazing. Like it sounds like a lot of money and it is like 50, $60,000 from an operating cost standpoint. But that's a million dollar plus machine, like safely. A million.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Yeah, that's rendered useless because of this tire issue.

[B]

So okay, let's. Yeah, I know where you're going with this. And tire's not useless. Like it could still run. It had cracks on it. But yes, I get your point. We had a customer that had a 992 that had like a transmission problem. I think it was in the first week. Oh, hot. Yeah, he was. That mind manager was pissed.

[A]

I bet, I bet. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that makes them shop at another brand the next time Around.

[B]

Yeah, but do they have that option? Oh, a different brand? Not. I mean, it's same cat. You don't really have options in the franchise world. Right.

[A]

You only have a few, and so you're kind of screwed.

[B]

But can you. So in like an ag. It gets pretty sensitive to buy a John Deere eight Series, nine series from a different dealer if you're in. In a certain territory.

[A]

Yeah. They don't like that.

[B]

They don't like. Is that the same way with big equipment?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. In Caterpillar, it definitely is. So, yeah, I can't go if I'm in California, in the Central Valley, I'm dealing with Quinn. I'm not going outside of Quinn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if I do, it causes problems.

[B]

Right. You can't just call finning up and be like, hey, you know, I'm thinking of a 994 today. You want to ship?

[A]

No, I mean, there's. It's. There's gray areas with used equipment, obviously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But new, I can't go buy from. From a different dealer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So unless I'm like a national account. But it still then goes through Quinn, so.

[B]

Goes through.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So we have national accounts and tires, too. But I think your point was, is that, yes, the tire component is actually relatively small compared to the equipment being down.

[A]

And it is, But I also know it's not just putting the wrong tire in the wrong application. It's also a lot of times. A lot of times user error. A lot of times user error is based on what I've seen, like loader tire example there, they're not maintaining a good floor. If they're loading in a pit, for example, they're not maintaining a good floor or their blasting's up or in some way and leading to, you know, a bunch of sharp rocks. And it's just sitting there, just cutting the shit out of the tires. And every pass the, you know, haul roads aren't properly maintained, or the loader operator is going. Is going into the dig face wrong, or they're spinning their tires or there's too much water in the pit. You can just go down the list of all of these potential operator issues and use issues as well.

[B]

It's endless.

[A]

Endless.

[B]

It's endless. This is where I'm happy we've got to. But I also look back and go, man, I wish we invested in that earlier is getting to know the applications on that level. Right. We just used to get the tires back. Hey, these tires are not working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. We're not asking Enough questions. Why now for. For mines? I mean, we. We basically have to track everything to see what's going on. Whether it's water, whether we put drones out there or cameras on the pieces of equipment. Our guys actually do operator training now, which is like, unbelievable. I can't believe we're at that point where we're sitting in front of operators and they're asking tire questions. Right, well, what if I go into this rock face? Or what about this? But knowing your customers that intimately is what's changed our whole world for us. And that's simple. But it's something we should have done a long time ago.

[A]

Yeah. Even just the operators spinning the tires more than they should be or at all that alone. I mean, that just chews up the tire.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Just obliterates the tire. And, and I see it a lot. The bigger, more serious minds are very good about it. Yeah, well, you would think they're very good about it. And a lot of them are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that is such a big expense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a lot of like, construction operations, civil construction operations. I mean, I might be able to see like, count on my hand the time I've.

[B]

Rock and roll, baby.

[A]

Tires actually talked about ever with any application, with loaders, with graders, with trucks, anything. I mean, but there are some operations. It's like, oh, shit, where was I? Like, they limited the truck speed to cool the tires a little bit better.

[B]

Was this in. In California?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know if it was California.

[B]

So we had, we had this one we're doing an analysis on as a long as 773s and 775s I think, but absolutely 773s in a long haul run. And they're like, well, we run these tires or we've taken two gears out of. Out of this run, one through three.

[A]

Because telling operators to not use the higher gears. That doesn't work. You've got to actually.

[B]

Yes. They took four and five out. I never heard of this before.

[A]

Right. Well, they do it in dozers.

[B]

Do they?

[A]

Yeah. So. Because when you go faster, it just eats through the undercarriage. And so they'll. They'll disable certain gears so that operators don't eat through the undercarriage as fast.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I had never heard of this. Like when we're going through it and our mining team is like telling it to me, explaining it to me, like, what do you mean? They took out two gears and they said they took out two gears because they were having tire issues. Long haul Run getting too hot. And that's what they needed to do. This is really brand agnostic. Tire comes in is okay. It was one brand that they were dealing with. They weren't looking at any other brands. Yes, they were using a heat tire. They make heat cut resistant. Heat heat resistant depending on the application. Yeah. But they said, okay, the, your, your application is too hard. You have to take two gears out. And we brought in another tire. Right. Obviously and said, well okay, here's the right tire for what you need and you can put the two gears back in. Like this thing is built to run. Yes, it is more expensive, but you're not. Not, not including your production. Not including your. Not including production and not including their early completion bonus which they would have had for that job. But fuel feels a huge component when it comes to tires. It's really hard for us to measure because we have to get really collaboration from the customer. But between fuel and tire wear, this is a medium sized operation. It's a million dollars in savings.

[A]

Wow, that's amazing. Not including production.

[B]

Not including production.

[A]

That's. But that's the kind of stuff I love. That's where. That's why I love mining over civil construction a lot of times because the world they exist in allows them to get into this kind of stuff and to really think it through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I go back into civil worth moving and I struggle a little bit with it because it's just like, oh, this is just not looking good. But that's the world they live in because they just have to get it done or smaller quantities or they don't have the optimized equipment like mines. They're hey, we're going to be here for 23 years so we can get the fleet we need. We can optimize appalling as we need it again. You'd think it's always that way. It's not always that way. But the business allows them to get these efficiencies out of it, which I think are super cool.

[B]

They're really committed. Everybody is, whether it's the operator, whether it's safety manager. It's like they live in their own island. Right. It's their own country almost even if it's in the United States. It does feel like that, that when I step onto a mindset it's like, hey, this is our rules, it's our world. You're going to start. We're going to start at the gate. Put, put on the gear that we tell you to put on and this is how we Run it. But everybody has that buy in. If an operator sees an issue, a lot of times that guy's a lot more bought in than you see an operator somewhere else.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Or like I know in that example too, the haul road quality is a big different or a big, big factor. Huge, big factor. And so like the smart operations will spend a lot more on haul road maintenance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they, they understand. Yeah, we're spending more on another blade out there or whatever it is, or extra material to build up the road a little bit better. But in the long run. Or man, like a good example recently was in Louisiana. They limed the haul roads. So what does that mean? Lime? Or they did cement stabilization some areas. It makes it hard, so it turns shitty material into really good solid material. It was all temporary, but they knew they'd be hauling over these certain areas for a certain duration. And so to just accelerate the process and to not wear equipment as much. Well, if we just stabilize the road, we're good to go. And you think that would be. That would again, be common sense. It's just a lot of times you don't see that. But I feel like the best operations are they're looking into stuff like that. Like, what's the road quality actually like, because that determines in a lot of ways our overall operating costs, which I love.

[B]

The light bulb for me on that was our guy started. They want to measure g force in a haul truck. And this all started with some steer tires that were blowing out. And it wasn't a customer of ours, but they had called us and they said, hey, can you kind of take a look at this? And my guys wanted some sort of cool gear to measure g force. And I'm like, okay, let's give it a shot.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And they track this thing and it's. It's getting like five GS around the corner. It's like they're blowing. They're blowing out $15,000 tires. And my guys are like, hey, could just cut the. The haul road, you know, with a less sharp of a turn here. Yes. It'll take a little longer. Right. But it's gonna change your whole operation. And after that, I just got, you know, addicted to watching the drone videos of the haul roads. Like, what does this look like? What's that? What's that angle? It's everything.

[A]

Or even the g forces created by a dip in the road. Yeah, I mean, if you're running 100 ton truck over a dip or a bump, that's a lot of force. Additional force on those tires. Yep.

[B]

And it changes over time because Earth. Right. But that one rock over time. Boom. It's just one bump.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's whole companies that just come in and consult on haul roads. I would think they're.

[A]

Yeah. In the mining world for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Civil again. And I know it's constrained, the business is constrained. But there's so many operations. And I'm just the asshole on the outside. Like what do I know? There's so many operations. I just want to say, like I think there's a better way to do this. Now I don't want to tell you how to do your job. Like you're looking. You're doing great there Billy. But I think there's a better way.

[B]

Why do you think that is? Like why do you think that? I mean we talked about the way mining operations are going to be there for 30, 40, 70 years thing versus civil. But what do you think the thought process in civil that brings those results?

[A]

Part of it's the business. Like in mining the business is all efficiency. Whereas in civil efficiency is important. But there are other things at play. There are other factors at play. So I do think part of it's the business and I think part of its cultural norms as well. I think in mining there's just this dedication to efficiency within the culture. Whereas in civil oftentimes I just see kind of like the. This is how we've always done it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's not this insatiable desire for efficiencies. And the scoreboard's a little bit better in mining too. Like you're judging teams based on their production oftentimes or like out in WA or I just was. They judge. They. They judge excavator. Excavator operators on their efficiency and productivity.

[B]

How do they do that? That?

[A]

Oh, oh, it's easy. All the machines have data coming off them now. All the machines. You. I mean the amount of data coming off these machines. You know everything. Like I was sitting in a crib room the other day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a. It was a 9800. You could hear the horn. It was that close. It was. The pit was just over the. The berm. 9800. It's 800 ton excavator.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So a big son of a three passing 794s. Monster bucket on this thing. It's the biggest bucket that Liebherr's ever made. And on the TV screen is all the data coming off the operation. It's the Time, spot times. So how much time it takes for the truck to back in. It's, it's loading times, it's cycle times. How much time per cycle that that machine was putting off. It's times between that truck getting loaded to the dump and to returning. Like all of this information, fuel burn, all of that in real time on the TV in the crib room. So you can just watch the operation happen right in front of you. It's just amazing. But the excavator operators I know in WA that are the most productive they get the best jobs.

[B]

Well that's what I was.

[A]

And the best schedules and the best machines.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're judged, you're, you're, you're. You're ranked as an operator and the better you are the more options you have.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Huh. It's pretty. It's pretty spectacular and that. But that's just the level it's at. But the data is just not as good in civil. But again mining can invest in the data because they have fewer machines. There's just bigger dollars at play. They're going to be in the same spot. They're investing more in one operation so they can amortize it over you know a greater amount of time. So on and so forth. In civil you just don't have that.

[B]

That. Yeah. Yeah. It's one project at a time.

[A]

It's one project at a time. Subcontractors and I think you can do it. Like I. I also think it's kind of an excuse. Like well just that's just not our business. Like. All right. Yeah, it's not. But I. I also do think you can, you can get that granular and make better decisions.

[B]

That'd be cool to watch.

[A]

It's super cool. That's the kind of stuff I love. Like again that's, that's why I just love mining because it's all down to the second. Like it's so precise. It's so well thought out. Everything about it is just beautiful. And I love seeing these. And there are some great operations to earth moving operations that I'll see. Like we went out to one Ames in Nevada. They were building this massive pad monster pad with 992 and triple seven. And it was just the operation. It was just running like a watch. They had a D10 pushing down feeding the 992.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it makes it more efficient. They get better. They studied it. They did production studies and it gets a better, better bucket. Yeah. Better fill factor in the bucket. The operator, you know Was spotting the trucks just perfect. Every time was. Was, you know, fill factor on the trucks really consistent. The. The cycle times are really consistent. One truck was taken off, the next one was already backing in, but it wasn't really waiting. Like everything was just really, really dialed in. And that I just love. And those are the operations that are going to talk about tires. Yeah, those are the operations. Like they know that tires make or break, something like that. And. And they're gonna. They're gonna talk about it.

[B]

Heck yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I could talk about that stuff all day long.

[B]

I would love to see the drone video of that. Like all the movement.

[A]

It's beautiful. Yeah, it's. It's really beautiful. It's. It's. There's some scraper operations like that and then there's some really ugly operations. Yeah, there's some really ugly ones.

[B]

Scraper work is tough, man. I mean there's. I mean we get to see the biggest scrapers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Surprisingly. Right. You don't think of California for big, big equipment, but scrapers we get.

[A]

Yeah. Peed tukit independent.

[B]

Yep. Yep. Those are cobra. I think a rummel.

[A]

Rummel in Arizona.

[B]

Yeah. Those are like kind of the big four that I think of that are all 627, 637, 657s. Again, only two people really make that tire for the 657.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yep. It's good. Or Michelin and bridgestone.

[A]

Is that right? Yeah, it's amazing.

[B]

Yeah, that's. It's basically custom. I mean there's so few of them and so few buyers. Is. Is we're going to have a few on the floor for a blowout. Yeah, but it's really. How many do we. How many does the market want this year? And then they build it on demand. I mean there's less of those getting built than there are 797 tires.

[A]

Well, yeah, there's more 797s and you've got six.

[B]

And they run continuously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Oh, the hours put on those trucks Over a typical civil machine. It's like typical civil machine, you know, 2,000 hours. That's a. That's a busy year. Like maybe 3,000. Whereas the mining, it's like 6 to 8,000. I think maybe more. I have to do the math. But yeah, I feel like it's like 6,8000 is pretty standard. Yeah, that's a lot. And like the 797, they. They don't really shut them off. Especially in winter. You don't ever shut the truck off. So the engine Hours.

[B]

Real high through the moon.

[A]

Yeah. But this all comes back to data because you're, you're an independent dealer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which allows you to study these applications and then just to inform the customer. Hey. Based on information, based on real world data.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's what's best. Which even as big as a Bridgestone Michelin, whoever is, they can't do that. Really. Because they can't do it. They can, but they can't because they're still, they have that bias.

[B]

Well, they have the bias and then there's not simply enough manpower. It's like most of the manufacturers have moved a lot of people out of the field. Like they basically reduced their sales team workforce and their field workforce force in 2023 by 50% or more. But you can't, you can't beat the amount of people in the field. I mean we have 250 people at East Bay Tire and over 100 are in trucks every day in the dirt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. But yes, I mean we can look at it. We're not using a proprietary Goodyear Michelin Bridgestone system. We're using a brand agnostic system to track the guys out of Australia actually.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And yeah, we can track this tire versus that tire in that application. I wouldn't say we have like a specific goal for it but in my dream world we've got this, we've got three points of data at least for each tire in the same application. When we start presenting it to customers, you know, a year from now.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

But the investment is for mining operations. We won't have data to make fantastic decisions. We'll have some data in three months, six months for them just kind of start seeing what the potential forecast could be. But big, big, long term decisions that could really change their budget. We basically need at least a full year.

[A]

But that in your positioning yourself as this value add to their operation because you can in a genuine sense inform them on what's best.

[B]

Yeah. The tire spend is really nominal compared to the what maintenance can do from a wear and a fuel perspective. So on over the road truck, some people use 1%. 1%. If you are 1% less air pressure, you're going to get 1% less wear. Nobody runs 100%. That's why this, this chase for, for air pressure systems is a massive, massive.

[A]

Race to keep the air pressure consistent.

[B]

Yes. Huge, huge. Everybody wants to solve this but nobody knows how to solve it by it being a third party. Everybody wants to solve it with their tire and their tire only. Sure.

[A]

Which is. I just the more I see that happen, the more I'm convinced that's the wrong way to go about it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I've seen the equipment manufacturers and the on the earth moving side try to do that and they try to be technology companies and it's like, you're not. Stop, like. And you're screwing everybody because. Because they buy up the technology companies trying to do the cool shit and then murder them in their, in their crib, smother the babies while they sleep. It's, it's kind of what happens to, to try to control it, but it's like that's not how this world works. And, and I, I see this on the technology side with all, all the big manufacturers are guilty of this, but they just act like no one else exists. Like the other manufacturers just don't exist. And it's like, well, that's not reality and their customers are pissed off as a result. Like, it gives their customers a shittier experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, well, don't you want your customers to have better experience?

[B]

That's a whole other conversation on like company culture and the Kool Aid. But yeah, that's very true with Big Corp in general is literally nobody else exists. We only drink our color Kool Aid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We only see our color.

[A]

We don't even mention the other company. We can't even say their name.

[B]

No, no. Voldemort.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't say it and you can't. Don't wear their colors to the office like that. You can't wear that any in the title industry. You've got blue, you've got red, you've got baby blue. You just, you just can't do it.

[A]

No, it's. I, But I don't blame any individuals within that world. No. I've, I've just noticed within the big companies there isn't, there is significant ego.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you start to believe that, like, you conflate your worth with the company's worth and weight and power and value. Like, you start to really.

[B]

It might be a psychological, cultural strategy. I, I'm sure we're going to bring in an internal and we're going to tell them this is the greatest product in the world and this is the greatest company in the world. And I'm going to connect my ego and my confidence to how this company is performing financially.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Well. And the intern stuff, I've been watching and I think it's pretty devious in a lot of ways because we're going to.

[B]

Don't disagree.

[A]

We're going to get these kids in the door and we are going to ball out with these kids. Topgolf. We're gonna do all this fun stuff. We're gonna have fun events. We're gonna put them on social media. We're gonna have a blast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. All right, you're analyst level one when.

[B]

You come out of college. Yes.

[A]

Full time. Here's your windowless office.

[B]

Yes, I see the post. And it's the CEO who, you know, most of the customers and dealers have never met. And he's posting about the one intern.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That maybe he's the brightest kid he's ever met. Maybe brightest kid he's ever met. Maybe shook hands with them for four minutes or four hours. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And boom. Analyst level one. And guess what? There are five more levels here. And then once you can go to a senior analyst. And there's five more levels here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Aaron, you have unlimited potential, limited potential. I'm telling you, I believe you could be a senior analyst five in six years.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and then, and then, you know, you're going to travel for work and you're. Because you're associated with Brand xyz, which is the best in the world.

[B]

Best.

[A]

We give you. You have all these perks now. And so you get, you get this status over here and then you get this status over here when you stay at the hotel. And then you're. Oh, you're, you're, you know, Brand xyz.

[B]

Oh, oh.

[A]

Do you work for Brand XYZ on your show? Oh, of course. I. Oh, wow. Well, we love you. Oh, wow. Your gold status. Because you work there. And then I just, I watch it happen so many times over. People just buy right into it and then they think that's them, but it's like that's not you. Which, which makes. I love the people that are still them within those big companies. Those are the best people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if you pair the power of these organizations with just a brilliant individual.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Who has a deep sense of humility and understanding of where they fit in the picture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Those are the people that you can actually talk to and get something done with.

[B]

Yeah. I have some of the best conversations with those because they see both sides of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they don't have any problem being in the middle. Middle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is. In some cases they say, this is big Corp. This is great for my family. It's great for this, this and this, the parts of my life that fit for me. And this is How I feel about where we're heading, where we're going. I got a call from a guy I really respect last week, and he's one of those guys who's been with Big Corp for a really long time, but he has no problem saying, this is what we suck at. Right. And this is what we're great at. So his boss calls him and says, hey, I want to go see some customers. And he's like, so you want to do, like, a normal customer visit? He's like, well, what do you mean? He's like, you want me to take you around? People tell you you're great?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you want to go see a real customer?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so he talked, him and his, you know, director of whatever, to go see a customer that hates them. Could they have, like, 5% market share?

[A]

Just move that a little closer.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or just point it at you.

[B]

Yeah. So he's taken him out there, and he's pumped, and I'm like, he has enough equity at this point. And that's kind of a whole other component. Right. Of what's your status in corporate?

[A]

Which does matter.

[B]

Which does matter. Right. He's like, I got enough years in that I can go take them to go get their asses kicked by somebody who doesn't like them. And I don't know. I respect that. That's something that I do, is I do confidential customer calls now. Well, I call customers that are either existing customers or former customers that I get fed from, not the sales team, and I ask them about how we did for them.

[A]

But do you just call them as, like, Jim?

[B]

No, I call them as. No, I call him as Joe, CEO of East Bay Tire.

[A]

You put on some other glasses and a ball.

[B]

No, no, no. It's not like undercover, that show, but you don't get customer feedback from people who may have said, hey, you guys sucked. It's great.

[A]

I. You know how I tell the difference between the people we were talking about, the great ones, and then the ones to stay away from?

[B]

No. Tell me.

[A]

It's all in language.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's all in conversation. The people that I just stay away from now or I just. I abhor. They can't. They have no real thoughts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They have no opinions.

[B]

Yeah. It's all neutral.

[A]

Everything. It's like they're talking. It's like everything they say is written, like, has been checked by a lawyer. They're, like, auditing everything they say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're. They're. It's. It's so interesting. And once you Start to recognize it. It's everywhere.

[B]

It's everywhere.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Just. It's everywhere. It's crazy. Like, to see it's. Most executives, I would say, especially on LinkedIn, go to LinkedIn if you want to see some unoriginal thought. And some. I mean, a lot of them don't write their own shed one, like some guy the other day, he's like, I messaged him on LinkedIn. He's like, oh, I think this was your team. And I'm like, no, I don't have a team sending people messages. But most. Most of these people, it's somebody else posing for them. 1, 2. If not, they're using ChatGPT now, 100%, you can spot it. And if it's not them using it, it's somebody else posting on their behalf using it.

[B]

All of the above.

[A]

Yeah. But they don't have a voice. They don't have their own voice. They have the company's voice. Whereas you run across other people, that's like, they might be at this big company, but it's like, oh, my gosh, you're still human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We can still have a conversation. We can talk about what we believe in. We can say things that might be controversial, that might be wrong. We can say that we were wrong. Like, we can say all this stuff. We have no rules. We can just have a conversation like we're having right now. Yeah, but. But they can't do that. They can't.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like politicians.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't even know how to delve down that rabbit hole of. It's just the way people are in some cases.

[A]

Well, but this, the court, the corporation, it beats them into being that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's the only way to survive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Especially at those upper echelons. You're not there to rock the boat, like we were saying last night.

[B]

No. It's a war of attrition. Yeah. The beast. The beast will handle itself. You don't actually. You're just there to hold on. You're the last person. Be the last person on the Titanic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

Yeah. If it. If it goes down in flames, then it was. Well, you know, we couldn't move the ship fast enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To. To see the giant iceberg, which was that people aren't going to, you know. Anyway.

[A]

No, it was. It was like the Red Lobster saying. Well, it was. What did us in was unlimited shrimp.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. There you go. I was looking for the right metaphor for wasn't us.

[A]

It was not Management. It was the unlimited shrimp that really did it. People just went nuts on shrimp. And then a week later. Oh, it was actually wild mismanagement.

[B]

Aaron, Listen, the shrimp may have been a bad idea, but really, it's this next generation who just are the problem.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

See, if this was 20 years ago, we didn't have this problem with shrimp because people didn't overindulge on shrimp.

[A]

Well, it's.

[B]

And so this next generation just has no respect for basic consumption.

[A]

Yeah. Our customers are actually the problem.

[B]

Indeed.

[A]

Those buying from us, they're the ones that did us in. Yeah. It wasn't us. No, no. We had this figured out.

[B]

No, we had a great shrimp idea. Checked all the focus groups. Phenomenal.

[A]

That's so funny. But this, this, this, this. This illustrates a bigger point. That is the next generation wants to work for human beings. And I was. I was at this event, and I'll name them by name because it's. It's a very high compliment. But I was talking with a friend of mine, was pretty connected in the world. In this world. And we were talking about miserable workplaces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good. Usual conversation. But he was looking around in the company. CJ Moyna and Mobile Track Solutions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

CJ Moana. And he was like, have you. Have you met a lot of people at TJ Moana or mts? I'm like, yeah, yeah, quite a few. And I'm like, what do they think about the company? I'm like, they all seem to like it. And he's like, yes, I've seen that too. I've noticed everybody actually likes it. And I'm like, yes, yes. And that's because John, the guy that is behind this, that runs it all, it ultimately rolls up to him. He's in the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's in love with the business. He loves the people of the business. He loves what they do. Like, it's. He's just. Him. He's doing what he does and he's there with the people. He's out in the field. He's. He's engaged with. What the heck's going on?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when I talk at Dirt World, I've said it, and I'm gonna just say it and say it and say it and say it. And I've got caught up in this too, even with a smaller company. But you've got to be in the business. And so many leaders are not even remotely close to the business. Most construction companies, since that's the world I'm in. But trucking companies, too, and most of the companies you work with, I'm sure most of the people there have never actually met and talked to somebody in the leadership in a, in a, in a legitimate, in a genuine context. Yeah, it's just, it just doesn't happen. And you'd think it would be all the time. You think, like, walk the floor, you know, going back to Japanese philosophy, like, that's one of the big things. It's like walking the floor, you know, management walks and being out on the floor with the people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But even when leaders are doing that now, especially the going back to the big companies, you see it on LinkedIn. Well, I walked the floor today. Here. Here we are. Well, you also had a photographer with you because where the hell did these pictures come from? These are pretty good pictures, right? It's like, so were you there for the pictures or were you there to actually walk the floor? And it's, it's, it's, it's a common thread between every great business is the leadership. And especially if it's a private company, whoever owns it, they're in the business. There's just no way around that. It just doesn't. I don't think it works otherwise. People know who they're working for.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you either work for people or you work for the corporate entity. That is, whatever that means to you.

[A]

Which ultimately works for the shareholders.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the shareholders. Who the hell knows who the shareholders are?

[B]

Yeah, it's a black hole.

[A]

But when you're working for people. Yeah. When you know, like, and, and you know they've got your back, some extraordinary things can happen, and it's. It's really special. And I think it is sometimes in these big companies. I have seen it. Like, there's a guy, Joe Hendricks, I think his name is with CSX right now. I've been seeing him online all the time.

[B]

Why do I know that name?

[A]

He's like. I mean, it could be. I don't know, but it seems like he's kind of turning the company around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just by spending time with the company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and I know it's not that simple, but that's kind of what he's doing. He's an old Ford guy and they brought him in and it's just. That's all he's done. He's just spent time with the company. And that's, it's so simple, but it's so like, that's everything. That's everything. And it just takes a person, even if they've been there for 30 years, shaking his hand once and having a genuine interaction with that person.

[B]

Yeah, for, for it, it's, it's small things. I mean you're, you're absolutely right. It's, it can be one interaction. I think about it basically every day that hey Joe, you're not in the field enough. Like it's just a constant guilt battle. Like, hey, I, you know, see our technicians, see, see our people, whoever. A guy by the name of Thomas Griffiths came out and did some, our first like high end earth mover training years ago. He used to work for Goodyear. Now he works for one of these companies that builds the trucks, the boom trucks. And so we had like three days. I was really committed. I think it was the first like first month or something that I had taken the COO role. Might have even been before that. And I brought him out and I'm big on training, huge on training. Whether it's sales training, whatever. Again, I don't think we spend enough on training and we still do it more than most. So he comes out to do earth mover training with our guys and on it's three days long. On the second day, I remember calling up our managers and our service managers and going, hey, like nobody has been to this. Like how do you guys expect to manage technicians if you aren't at the training, seeing what your guys actually do, right? And I was like pretty hot about it. And because it's open training, it's not like it costs anymore for a manager to come watch, but come see what your guys do, what they work in a truck every day with what challenges they're they're faced. Because it's real training, it's underneath scrapers is. We went to real customers with real rusted wheels, unappreciated equipment. How do you fix it? And on third day, Thomas, I was like shocked to hear this. He gets up and he says, hey guys, you don't really realize how rare this is. And everybody looks at him and he says, Joe has been here all three days. I have been doing this for 20 plus years, however long. He's like, not one time in my history has a proprietor and owner ever come to one day of training.

[A]

It's wild. Yeah. That's all it takes though. I also want to watch. It's only 10:30 since you have a lunch. But you know, the other day I was at big steel making coal mine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As large scale mining as it gets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you've got two 9800 excavators, you've got two 9600 excavators, you've got 9400, you've got 794s, 793s, autonomous trucks. Unbelievable. Large scale operation. Yeah. Big time, big time operation. And the CEO of the company, his name's Barry Tudor and I've gotten to know him over, over the past few years. Brilliant, just brilliant guy. But the first time I met him I was going to the mine. It was a brand new mine at the time which is very rare. Potentially the last new steelmaking coal mine in Queensland. Land really big deal. And this is a, this is an 80 year. Almost an 80 year mine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

15 million ton a year potential. Like big operation. Yeah. This is, this is serious mining. But the first time I was there I just stumbled into him because he was. They just got their first 9,800 and he was just like. He just wanted to see it. He was just excited.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, he just, he was just walking around the machine and we were walking around the machine at the same time. I didn't know who the guy guy was. But we start talking. Oh, it turns out he's running the whole company. Go figure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then this past time, you know, it's. Oh yeah, I was out here yesterday and I spent an hour in the machine in the excavator. I just love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love just sitting in there and talking with the operator and just watching what they do. I mean this is, this guy, he's a pretty big deal. He's got a lot going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He'll spend an hour just sitting in the machine just watching what the heck's happening. And then we just spent you know, most of the day on site. He's with us the whole time and he's flying his drone. Cause he just loves it, you know. Yeah, it's, it's. But it's like again all that's to illustrate that this is why this place is different. It starts with this guy. It's a huge team. It's a lot going on. But it starts with this individual. And he's out here and he's engaged with what's happening in the process, in the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that then goes all the way down. All that permeates the whole organization, whole thing. It's so special. I think that's the biggest difference between companies that feel like something that are special, are unique and that are just another company is, is that like that's what makes it different in a lot of ways? That individual or that, that, that like for you, like you're instilling within the organization your values, but then you're also furthering the values that have been instilled in the organization, starting with your grandfather.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's not just you. It partially. You're a big part now, but it's. You're also a steward of what's been put down before you. Yeah. But I just. I just don't think it's talked about enough. And I think you.

[B]

You can't fake passion.

[A]

No.

[B]

And you can. You'll see it in people's actions. I mean, it's as simple as that.

[A]

Yeah. And you. In. In probably one conversation, I can tell you if the next generation is in it or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that makes sense. Like, they might do a fine job managing the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can tell pretty quickly.

[B]

So you probably have a really unique perspective on that, just of how many people you interview and meet and your exposure. Yeah.

[A]

You can. You can get a. I can get a pretty quick read now. Like, I can know if someone's really. Just really in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can do. You can do really well. Not totally in it, but then the guys that are just. Just live and breathe it. You're like, all right, this is. This is special. And those are the people. Those are the people. I've started to notice this too, just with. With energy. Those are the people I gravitate to now. Like, I just can't. I can't get enough. Spending time with a berry because it's. It's. To me, it's just infectious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just.

[B]

I love your. It's a high.

[A]

Oh, my God. It's a. It's. There's nothing better or like some. Two. Two of my other favorite people, like Shea, he's. He's a contractor in Aspen. He was just with Larry Ames.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who was. His father was Dick Ames of Ames Construction.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he runs company called Bemis in Denver with a lot of 631s. They go through a lot of tires, and they were just together at this event. I missed them, so I'm super bummed. But those two guys, like, I don't have to question if they're in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

They live it.

[A]

It's stupid obvious. Yeah. Or a John Moyna. Like, it's just stupid obvious that this. It just. This is it.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

This is it. And sometimes that permeates through generations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For whatever reason, it's just not there.

[B]

Million reasons.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's. It's I've started. I've really reflected upon that recently of like just gravitating to these people that's like, oh, this is, this is different. Like you're really, you're really in this.

[B]

I. I love people who live and breathe anything. I mean I was talking about the before we started the cy, the cyclist, my neighbor next door. I don't care what they're into, just in. Into something all in. Those people are awesome.

[A]

It goes for equipment operators.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Field supervisors, technicians.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Any. Any role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, welders. I just, I love being around people that are just. They just live and breathe what they do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the. It's just. There's nothing like it. Nothing like it.

[B]

It's the best.

[A]

Yeah, it's. I going on a different, different tangent here. I like what you're doing too with like you've started a podcast.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This year, right?

[B]

Yeah. This year.

[A]

When did you talk? Early this year.

[B]

Earlier this year? Yeah. Like February.

[A]

But you like, you're a younger. How old are you?

[B]

37.

[A]

So you're 38. 37. 38.

[B]

I forget.

[A]

Yeah. You've taken over this business that was started in the 40s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it long history. But the world is very different now and it's changing going forward.

[B]

It's different and we're different.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. I try and try and give this pitch to everybody that we were basically a used tire dealer for 30 years. We were a new tire distributor for 30 years. We've only been a had a division that is end user like a true servicing dealer for 20 years. And so each generation has had to evolve. But completely different than what is a lot of considered our peers is oh, you're an 80 year old company, you're the same as XYZ, third generation, second generation, what have you. We actually haven't been servicing tires for eight, 80 years. Like we are the new kid on the block when it comes to servicing mine sites.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But from the outside looking in, even in our industry, they go, oh, you're the same as such and such. And I go really? We're not. I can tell you there's not many peers. I don't actually know one who's multi generational that ran a truck like I ran a truck because we were just starting our service division. Yeah. And that's not something that my father did. Right. He worked in the warehouse. Right. That's a generational thing that we always grow up that way. But he was never in the servicing part of the business. So, yeah, it's multi generational, but it's, hey, what's next? And that's where this data piece comes in. And that's where this podcast piece comes in is okay. We do a lot with a lot of stuff in the industry that we need to educate fleet customers on. They're not getting what they need out of their tire dealers. We need to do a better job as an industry to educate and help them run better businesses.

[A]

But I like, and I like that's where you're coming at it. Like, it's obvious that it is genuine. You're not coming at it. Like I was saying earlier, there's a lot of podcasts, a lot of businesses. A lot of businesses do marketing just for the sake of marketing or just to serve themselves solely. Yeah, it's just totally self serving. So podcast, how do we serve ourselves? And let's just run with that. Which is why none of those have had any success whatsoever, because it's garbage. Whereas you're coming at it from, how do I educate? How do I add value if I do that? Like, our business will. Everything will take care of itself at that point. But I just need to teach people what the heck's going on here.

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna keep trying over and over until people get wins. Yeah, it's a freaking blast. I showed the first episode to my wife and she was like, hey, you need to be more genuine. Just be yourself. Right?

[A]

That's good. Spouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Married by a woman.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, she's on it. And I mean, that's part of the best part about our guys. Come on. I mean, they know much more about tires than I do at this point. They're really in it every single day. And they come on and they get to talk about what they're brilliant at and all the different examples, and that's a huge win for me. I mean, it was when we started it. Everybody was real nervous. They're like, joe, this seems kind of crazy, this tire industry. Don't you. Don't you start doing podcasts and putting people on video? You know, yeah, that would be. But then the guys got up there and they got to talk about what they love. And they know their shit. They love doing it and seeing their high coming off of it. And I'll send those videos to customers and potential customers and say, hey, I heard you have this problem. Check this out. So seeing our guys get pumped up about it, that could charge me for years.

[A]

And that I really think, like, that that's what's important with this format from a business standpoint, like the volume and distributions, not. It shouldn't be the goal. It hasn't been for us. We're not, we're not massive. We're not small either. It is amazing the different people that listen to this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're listening. Thank you. But it's, it's, it's a pretty, still a pretty niche audience. But that's the point. Like this is really the only audience we need to be talking to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And with you, like you're talking with very specific people, but that carries. You're adding value to very specific people, but that's very valuable. Like it's, it's. The value isn't determined by, by numbers. The, by a download number.

[B]

I haven't, I. Thankfully we have people doing that. Like. Yeah, for me, so I don't have to look at it. But yeah, we did, we did one or came out last, last week that was on garbage trucks. I love garbage trucks. Yeah, it's a cool business. But I visit those sites. I don't say frequently, but at least every year. And there are some senior fleet managers. But like any industry, you're bringing a lot of youth right now. And so that kid, I say I shouldn't say kid, but I mean, he's in his 20s, he's getting started. He's the hardest working guy on that crew and got the fleet manager role. He listens that podcast. It's probably gonna make the difference between him winning an award that year and hitting a bonus.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because he's gonna save 50 grand accidentally listening for 45 minutes or however long it is. Okay. This is how I can maintain my fleet, Save money, hit budget, get an award, best fleet manager in the region, whatever it is, get a nice bonus to take home. So if it's one download, who cares?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It also, it has to be like I, you know, I fell victim to this before I began doing some stuff too, but it has to be bigger than you. Like so many people get so caught up in them and their ego, which again, it happens to all of us and it happens to me all the time. Yeah, well, what if I say something stupid? I say stupid shit all the time. Do you know if there's any corporate people that actually listen to this? They're not gonna be very happy with what I said earlier. Yeah, well, that's not how it is. I don't know, but maybe it's not that. But I've put my foot in my mouth so many times over.

[B]

If you talk enough and you talk honestly. You will. It's part of it.

[A]

That's. Yes. That's honest conversation. That's. That's legitimate thought. Thought and learning. And I've been doing it now for years. I know how to navigate it a little bit better. But you have to get past you and it's like I'm not here. Well, it is self serving. I love these conversations. It's just fun to sit down for a few hours and shoot the shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I have all these conversations in private like or, or you know, as I travel this and that. I. It's a shame that they're not out there. They are out there though because we do this. But it's like I'm trying to, I'm trying to get people like you and put them. We've built this stage. Yeah. That's. That's big because of just our position in the industry. We're just this.

[B]

You guys have neutral party.

[A]

Yeah. But I'm trying. It's. It's not about me. It's about putting people like you on this stage because you have a lot to offer. There's a lot of value for, for some people and you're not going to resonate with everybody. And maybe somebody. Well, they're talking about tires. I don't give a shit about tires, man. I'm going to go to the next.

[B]

Come on. We can get like a hundred downloads out of this.

[A]

Well, we'll get at least 100, I think. At least. Yeah, I think, I think 100 is achievable.

[B]

Yeah. I can just mandate it company wide. So I'll get.

[A]

There you go. There's 100 right there. But the goal, the point is, the goal is it's not about me, not about my ego most of the time. It's about creating value by having people I find interesting on and talking to them about what they do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And hoping that that conversation and being honest in the approach that I take with people and in that process hopefully there's value created which I know there is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm going to keep doing it.

[B]

Keep doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We love it. Everybody that I know in construction, civil or mining knows. Knows dirt talk. Knows you.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

I mean the first time, the first time I heard your name was at hunting camp with my cousins, operators, firemen.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't from any marketing team, corporation, CEO. It was lube techs.

[A]

Well, because, but that. Exactly. Because that's.

[B]

And they like to watch your stuff.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, yeah. And then I'm not making it for CEOs.

[B]

And the first, it's not really relevant in their world, in their mind. The first messages I got when we started the podcast were from technicians.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Yeah. They're like this cool.

[A]

It's super neat. But they're, I mean they have a lot of windshield time and so podcasts, perfect format.

[B]

They do. They have a ton.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And one, one technician sending me a message like, hey, that was awesome. Gives me months worth of energy. Yeah, let's go.

[A]

And to make the business case, like one technician is probably many hundreds of thousands in revenue. Like yeah. You know, they're doing a lot for your business. Just one individual. And then whatever you're making on that, you know, I'm just like say $250,000 per technician. I'm just gonna use like just nonsense numbers, but they're not that nonsense.

[B]

That's a pretty good number. Yeah.

[A]

$250,000. And you might make, say you make 20%, which I know is generous, but that's 50 grand that that individual is creating for your business every year.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

If you keep them happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you can just prevent one of those people from turning over and that's not the cost to replace that individual as well.

[B]

What do you, what do you think? Pop quiz for Aaron. What do you think the turnover industry wide is for tire technicians?

[A]

50%.

[B]

Rumors. It's 80.

[A]

I don't know how you run a business on 80% turnover.

[B]

I, I don't. Because ours is 11. I mean it's, it's.

[A]

But you just like the business case there is like you just prevent one person from turning over in a one year period. You've paid for the investment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you, you've. Or with our, with our training, you know, build it and prove it's like, all right, you're going to spend $13,000 on this it in a one year period. That's just, that's one incident there.

[B]

There's a lot of math on it. But the, the simplest for me is it's one of the best aspects of running a small business is one person can change your trajectory so positively and you have the ability to sit down and spend time interviewing and getting to know them and getting to make it sure it's the right fit. I'm trying to do less of that. It's a whole jocko, decentralized command thing. Like crew has to figure out the process that Works for them. But. Yeah, I mean, but you.

[A]

You. So you have to be more efficient for time's sake, and you have to. You have to use decentralized command, and you have to trust other people to do things.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But Jocko also talks about the dichotomy of leadership, and that is you still need to. I think you do need to make things more efficient, but you also need to do things that are wildly inefficient. Like, it's still a business. Is still, no matter the scale, one person at a time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And customers. It's still just one customer at a time. And that's how I view. Like, honestly, that's how I view the audience we're building online. It's just one person.

[B]

It's just one person at a time. That is the. That is the mindset in small business. Theoretically, it could. Could be in Big Corp. It's just not. It's. You know, it's 10,000 at a time. Is. Is how we. How we run. Bring 10,000 people in. Keep as many as you can. Next 10,000 will come next year.

[A]

Yeah, but it's still. They're under the illusion that it's that way, but it's still one person at a time. It's still one company at a time. Like, you can't get around that. I don't think there's no. It's. Again, it's like we reach tens of millions of people consistently now. Like, just between Instagram and Facebook. 75 million views a month. Just Instagram and Facebook. Holy smokes. And that's no paid. There's nothing paid there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no giant team. Most of it's from my phone.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And my camera.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Almost all of it.

[B]

Which are great photos, by the way.

[A]

I've had a lot of practice, and there's. There's a. There's a lot of support there. Like, But I'm. I say that from, like, a cost standpoint. Like, we're not spending a much money to do that. It's just. Good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I lost my train of thought here, but so big numbers. It's amazing, but it really is. Just meeting one operator at a time in the field. One field supervisor, one lube tech, one technician, one CEO. It's just a handshake at a time. That's all there is to it. That's it. That's it. And so. And that's why I spend so much time traveling, because it's like. And it's. It's been criticized a little bit recently, but it's like, that's the point. Like, I'm not just. And I know on the Internet, it looks like I'm just off and. Yeah, sometimes I do. I'm gonna enjoy my life. Sue me.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, I see your. I see your boat. Like, I see your nice house. This and that. Like, hey, I can. I can have a good time, but it's. It's. It's a lot of work at the same time, Like, I would love to bring some of these people on it, on. On even a week in Australia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just watch them even try to keep up. It's like, good luck, dude. Good luck. But that. But that's what I need to do. I need to be out, like I'm saying, with executives, with companies. I need to be within my company. But if I want to go help change the industry, I need to be in the industry as much as possible, or else it just doesn't work. I will not be able to change the industry. From Nashville, Tennessee.

[B]

Maybe what you're trying to say is the. The whole point of everything is engagement with people.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Which is why I'm in love with this world, because it's. It's just people doing work. Yeah. Keeping the world moving. Like you said, we can tie a bow on this. How do people find your podcast aroundthebead.com.

[B]

Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

Yeah, it's easier on YouTube because if we put the data out there, you get the graphs and everything.

[A]

You're posting more on LinkedIn as well.

[B]

On LinkedIn.

[A]

Yeah, I see quite a bit on LinkedIn now.

[B]

Yeah. I post on LinkedIn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, chat. GBT.

[A]

Good. Yeah. Don't, don't.

[B]

Some of the posts are not great. I was. I was. What?

[A]

I was listening to Tucker the other day, talk to. I forget who it was. And they made a point. That's really good that I've been. I've been trying to think of myself, but just haven't quite got there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is speaking and writing is the thought process. Yeah, Is your thought process.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so it's the act of thinking and creating in speaking and writing.

[B]

Yeah. If you remove that, you're removing the thinking part.

[A]

You remove thought and it's like, holy. That's exactly it. That's what's. That's. And so it. It, It. I don't criticize it, like, oh, you're lazy, or whatever it is. It makes me sad that people are relying on it so much, especially at a leadership level, because it's like the best thing I've done as a leader is developed the ability to communicate. The ability to publicly speak. The ability to be on a podcast without having stressing about it or having somebody review it. The ability to write. Write my thoughts, audit my thoughts, express what I'm thinking and why. Simplify my thoughts into a very concise message that is effective. Develop a voice, even understand who I am through repeatedly communicating, Communicating, Communicating. Challenging just who I am as an individual. It's. It takes, like, a lot of work. It takes a lot of practice to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you remove the work from it. Now what.

[B]

Now what?

[A]

And. And that saddens me because it's like, we. We need more human leadership here, not less. And we're. We're now getting less.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're moving further away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Hey, hey, hey. This is. No, we're. Use it as a tool, by all means. It's unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But don't replace your thinking with it. And I'm seeing a lot of people do that, and it just. It really saddens me. It's a huge bummer.

[B]

I mean, your. Your quote is to me from February is, you have to get in the reps. Yeah. And that's true with everything.

[A]

Yes. And are you.

[B]

Including thought.

[A]

Are you a better communicator than. Than you were in January?

[B]

I have to ask the crowd, but I freaking. I freaking hope so. Right. It's all about how they receive the message. Message. But I could see how you could get obsessed because I start to get obsessed with it. On how good of a communicator are you? And that means who your audience is. It's not. It's. It's how you resonate with various different people. Yeah. In various different circumstances and formats. How can you do it written? How can you do it verbally? How can you do it in person? How can you do it over podcast?

[A]

Well. And now.

[B]

But if you get. If you get obsessed with it and you get passionate about it, then you also get the reward of having so much better connections with people. And that's where I look back at myself and go, okay, you really. Room for improvement there from the past. Like, this is how you engage with people, and this is how you have better relationships and you become so much more rewarded in life from that. So being a better communicator is far more than just you. It's the people on the other side. They end up becoming better communicators.

[A]

What's a relationship? Communication.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Again, like, that's what we're playing with right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and, but, but to me, it just reinforces, like, I need to double down on this right now, because this, now the gap's only getting wider. Like, I thought it was as wide as it could get, but now it's getting wider. Wider.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if I can go even books now, just the amount of people using other writers and to write their books, like you, you, you know who's written their book or not, you can tell.

[B]

It's, it's almost. Okay, I, I, I'll say it. It's almost like music, right? Where the music industry, I don't really even consider a music industry anymore, but there was music that was written by people, written their own lyrics, played. Played by people. That's, that's where thought is at this point in time is like, okay, are, is AI and everything else taking that over, where there's not genuine books being written or thought. Just like, there's not that way that much in the music world anymore.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. But when you do read or hear something that is created by somebody, it.

[B]

You feel it.

[A]

Yeah, you feel it, and you can't even put your hands on it oftentimes, or a lot of people can't. But like, in music, the Oliver Anthony song that went nuts a few years ago, just, but nothing like that had happened in modern time with somebody just, just, it just explodes. He's not represented by a label or anything like that. He was just a guy performing. He recorded it on his phone. And it just was legitimate. It was legitimate art that resonated with a lot of people. Yeah, but it's, I'm sure, one, you're a better communicator, but I bet you're better in business. I bet you're better in your relationship with your wife. I bet you're better with your kids. I bet you better with your customers, like, with your people. I, I would be willing to bet that those things are true or coming true.

[B]

I hope so. I mean, my, my, my final quote of the podcast is what I got written on my wall, which is progress over perfection. Perfect. Aaron, thanks.

[A]

Thanks for coming.

[B]

This was fun.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if we.

[B]

I got to make my podcast more fun.

[A]

Nah, make it. No, no, no, no. You need to do it. You need to do it your way.

[B]

Way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't need to make it anything, but it was, it was good what you do. I'm trying to make this me and what I do, but glad you enjoyed it. Yeah. Appreciate you coming, and hopefully we see you soon.