Joel McKee w/ McKee Construction — DT 404

Summary

DIRT TALK PODCAST SUMMARY

Podcast: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Host: Aaron Witt (A)
Guest: Joel McKee, McKee Construction (B)
Episode: DT 404
Release Date: January 1, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode features a candid, wide-ranging conversation between host Aaron Witt and Joel McKee, founder of McKee Construction. Joel shares his journey from Mississippi logging through real estate and into civil construction, emphasizing lessons learned, struggle and growth in business, and the vital importance of leadership, physical discipline, and transparency. Together, they reflect on industry mental health, hard-learned lessons from challenging projects, and why real talk is essential for meaningful progress in the dirt world.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Personal Discipline, Routine, and Fitness

• 75 Hard & Personal Habits: Both Aaron and Joel value daily routines and personal discipline.

  • Aaron discusses his adoption of daily fitness and mental improvement routines, influenced by programs like 75 Hard.
    • “I’m a big believer in doing work every day...I train every day, and people are like, ‘What are you training for?’ I’m just training for life, man.” (06:22, A)
  • Joel shares his struggle to maintain personal fitness habits during business hardship and how he’s returning to that discipline.
    • “My discipline of working out every single morning...I let my mind, I guess, get the best of me. So I’m just now getting back into it.” (12:39, B)

• Building Mental Resilience: Both relate daily workouts and challenges (running, rucking) to maintaining mental health and leadership ability.

  • “If I don’t get it out, I would be a total piece of... I mean, really, I’d be a terrible person if I wasn’t exercising.” (07:01, A)
  • “The more you work out, you keep that competitive nature. Your mind’s more focused. And so that's where I'm trying to get back to...” (15:25, B)

2. Transparency, Leadership & Mental Health in Construction

• Responsibility Starts With The Individual:

  • Aaron is working on framing leadership talks to focus less on companies and more on the individual.
    • “The success of your company really comes down to you as an individual...if you’re not doing the shit you need to be doing, your company is limited.” (10:23, A)
  • They discuss how caring for oneself physically and mentally is foundational for leading others.
    • “You need to love yourself before you can love your neighbor. Are we loving ourselves?” (12:08, A)

• The “Talk” vs. The Work on Mental Health:

  • Addressing the “suicide epidemic,” both lament that the industry often talks about mental health but doesn’t act.
    • “Everybody’s saying, we need to talk about it, and then that’s it...if you're not going to do anything after that, then it's almost worse to say that.” (16:14, A)
    • The most effective approach is vulnerability and sharing personal stories: “Here’s what I had to do to get out of it...That’s been way more effective in talking with people.” (17:03, A)

3. Joel’s Mississippi Roots: Logging, Real Estate, and Pivot to Dirt Work

• Family Logging Business: Joel describes growing up in the South and spending time in his family’s pine logging business.

  • Memories of learning to run equipment as a child (“dig a hole, then fill it back in”) highlight early exposure and love for hard work. (26:00-28:00)

• Real Estate Lessons: Joel pivoted from logging to real estate, focused on selling undeveloped recreation/hunting land, but disliked the “sales mentality.”

  • “I wasn’t someone that was going to go out there and just push something on people...I didn’t enjoy the sales mentality.” (25:39, B)
  • Side projects developing land rekindled his appreciation for “hard work.”

• Jump to Construction:

  • When an opportunity arose to partner with an experienced dirtwork operator, Joel dove into the civil industry, learning through hands-on experience.
  • “We didn’t say no to nothing...We were just like Tasmanian devil, just blowing through stuff...we were able to pay our bills and just kept on growing.” (43:07, B)

4. Lessons in Business: Tough Jobs, Culture, and Growth

• Early Struggles & Learning Through Mistakes

  • Joel recounts how McKee Construction’s rapid growth meant learning business, estimating, and operations on the fly, especially during the early COVID-19 shutdown (45:00-46:00).
  • When facing a disastrous job (which required redoing completed work under tight conditions), the lack of process, experience, and right people became painfully costly.
    • “We learned that we didn’t have the processes in place...If we had the right people that would have asked the right questions before we ever kicked off, we would have avoided 90% of this.” (55:15, B)
  • The trauma of a bad job and how the experience, though costly, provides the foundation for future growth:
    • “That's just part of the learning curve as a contractor, you’ve got to have a job like that where you lose your ass.” (59:12, A)
    • “We'll always remember that. We're gonna put something up to memorialize this job in our office. May we never forget.” (61:02, B)

• Culture & People First:

  • Discussion of crew dynamics highlights that a high-performing team isn’t about credentials or where you come from, but hard work and the right attitude.
    • “This world is spectacular because it doesn’t give a shit who you are, where you’re from, what your education level is...Here, it doesn’t matter. It just matters how much you put in.” (35:29, A)
  • Joel’s focus for 2026 is on developing his people: “Our goal...is to help them know that when they're talking to anybody, they can say without a shadow of a doubt that we're their biggest fan.” (86:59, B)
  • Challenge: when leaders get stuck in “survival mode,” people suffer from absence and neglect.
    • “Everyone wants to grow, be poured into. When that's not happening, it hurts. And that’s the trap I’ve fallen into.” (88:13, A)

5. Industry Pain Points: Estimating, Cash Flow, and Contracts

• Bid/Win Ratio & Estimating: Both voice how demoralizing and relentless the bid process can be, estimating far more work than won.
  • “You work like four weeks on something...you get third, and then you throw everything in the fucking trash can and Monday starts over.” (52:26, A)
• Cash Flow Stress: GC and owner payment practices mean small contractors like McKee often front project costs, essentially financing work for powerful clients.
  • “As a contractor, you’re also a banker...you’re sitting there waiting for a pay app to go through. Like, you’re what, 90 days in at this point.” (47:00, A)
• Contracts as Legal Minefields:
  • “I mean, this one right here was a 298-page contract...they just hide every little thing in there.” (67:12, B)
  • The legal environment means blame often flows “downhill” to the subcontractor who signed, no matter how unreasonable.
• Healthy Relationships in Construction:
  • Joel notes how prompt, fair-paying GCs earn loyalty: “When you come to [this contractor], you turn in your payout in 15 days, you’re paid...everybody’s beating down the doors to work for that contractor.” (47:26, B)

6. The Value of Transparency and Real Storytelling

• Rejecting the “Perpetual Success” Facade:
  • Both Aaron and Joel critique the LinkedIn culture of only sharing good news. They argue for more honest accounts of struggle and failure as both necessary and cathartic.
    • “Everybody’s making it seem like everything's just awesome all the time...Am I the only jackass here? Like, am I the only guy that can't figure this out?” (75:19, A)
    • “Whenever I do post something, it'll be just something real...I don't want everybody just to think I'm falling into the trap of everybody else just posting just what good goes on.” (76:46, B)
• Summit/Conference Takeaways:
  • Both men praise talks by other contractors (esp. Ryan Schmidt) who openly shared business failures and recovery.
    • “Ryan was most helpful for me for the stage that I was in...There is life on the other side of this thing, and we're past it now.” (80:05, B)
    • “He’s a great example...because they have the mentality that we’re all in this together.” (82:08, A)

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES (WITH TIMESTAMPS)

• “If I don’t do something every day, I’m gonna go insane. I’m gonna be an absolute animal.” (06:22, A)
• “Your neighbor is first in that phrase...but it’s no, no, no, no, no. You need to love yourself before you can love your neighbor.” (12:08, A)
• “It’s the actions that matter. Well, instead, what are you doing with your time?” (16:49, B)
• “We didn't say no to nothing...We'll figure out how to do it later. That's how we just grew.” (43:05, B)
• “We learned lessons. Understatement.” (54:01, B)
• “If we would have asked the right questions, that would have been a huge start...now we ask it on every job.” (55:15, B)
• “We’re back. We’re back. We’re back in the saddle, man.” (69:02, B)
• “Everybody is kind of like a child. Like, we all want to feel important...when that's not happening, it hurts.” (88:13, A)
• “We're so transparent with it...We're not, we don't have anything to hide.” (83:02, B)

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TIMESTAMPED SEGMENT GUIDE

• 00:09-03:00 – Fitness & 75 Hard; Discipline and routine, impact on travel and hydration
• 04:06-07:34 – Mental discipline, daily training, how working out affects leadership and focus
• 11:01-13:16 – Leadership starts with individual discipline; mental health as company foundation; Joel’s struggle to maintain discipline in tough times
• 16:08-18:35 – Industry talk on mental health vs. real action; importance of vulnerability
• 19:46-31:02 – Joel’s background; Mississippi roots, logging, and learning about hard work
• 31:02-34:00 – Real estate to dirt work; discovering value of “hard work” through land development
• 43:00-47:00 – Starting McKee Construction; learning by doing, bidding, and growing fast
• 46:43-55:45 – Cash flow, contract pitfalls, breakdown of disastrous job (“turkey job”)
• 55:45-61:13 – Lessons learned: poor processes, asking right questions, value of transparency
• 69:00-74:26 – Recovering post-bad job; restoring culture, “roller coaster” of leadership emotions
• 75:17-78:33 – Social media inauthenticity; need for real talk about struggle
• 80:05-84:49 – Summit/conference takeaways; practicing people-first leadership
• 86:59-91:02 – Looking forward: developing people, appreciating crews, staying focused on growth

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FINAL NOTES

The episode is a masterclass in honest, boots-on-the-ground leadership in the civil construction field. Both Aaron and Joel model vulnerability, advocate for self-discipline as essential for effective leadership, and stress that real talk—not polished LinkedIn feeds—drives the industry forward. Their stories of mistakes, recovery, and the everyday grind offer encouragement and practical wisdom for anyone working to build something real, in dirt or otherwise.

Transcript

[A]

Have you ever done like 75 hard?

[B]

I have not.

[A]

It's. You drink a gallon of water a day is part of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and that. It's just, it's brutal, man.

[B]

Whenever we did that, the workshop at first form up there.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

That's actually the first time I had heard of it. So I went home and I did start implementing some of it. I did start drinking a gallon a day. I started doing, I guess you could call it 75 soft.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't, it wasn't full blown 75 hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I started dabbling with it then.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's fantastic.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It, it cleaned my act up and I've, I've been kind of living it since. Like.

[B]

How many times have you done it?

[A]

I've only been through it twice, but I kind of just do it now. Like, I work out every day. I don't drink. I eat pretty damn clean. I read every day. I drink a lot of water, but probably not a gallon a day. A gallons a little. Yeah, it's just a lot. And I don't, I drink a lot of water. The, the thing that, that, that, that the only time I don't drink water is when I'm flying domestically. It's weird. I have like this whole travel system that I've kind of made up in my head. But I'll sit, I'll sit in aisle if it's a long flight. So I can pee during the flight.

[B]

I always pick the aisle.

[A]

Yeah, well, I like, I like the window because I can just, I can just kind of veg out for, you know, three hours. I typically have like, if it's a up to four hour flight, I can do window, but after that I've got to sit aisle because there's, there's a 100% chance I'm peeing at some point during the flight.

[B]

Oh, no doubt.

[A]

Yeah. Um, but then the longer flights, I'll always be aisle. And then I can drink as much water as I want during the flight. But it's, it's wild. Like the, the, the, the, the. I mean some of those flights, they're long and the flight just dehydrates the heck out of you especially it depends on the plane you're on. But the older planes, like a triple seven, they dehumidify the air so the plane itself doesn't corrode because the plane's metal. And so it's, it's very, very dehumidified. And so you'll get off the Plane, especially a long flight. Just super dehydrated. Super dehydrated.

[B]

I hadn't thought about that. But it does make sense. I hadn't done no. Nowhere near the flying you've done. But.

[A]

Well, it's, it's, it's one of the.

[B]

Five or six hours is my longest flight I've ever done. One of the, one of those trips to Australia and those places. How many hours are Those?

[A]

It's a 17 hour flight from Dallas. Yeah.

[B]

That's tough.

[A]

That's a long ways. It's a balance.

[B]

I don't know if I can sit still that long. I guess I could. My parents, they love traveling international.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They've got a trip in the. I guess they just booked it for next fall. They'll be headed to Rome in some places.

[A]

Oh, that's good.

[B]

So they're always going over there. They love cruises. Sure. And so I guess if my parents can sit still that long, especially my mom, I get my patience from her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I guess if she can handle it, I guess I could too.

[A]

But I, I just, most of the time I'll take like nyquil asleep.

[B]

But that's the ticket.

[A]

Yeah. It's not so bad. It's, it's once you kind of get used to it once. You do it once or twice, you're like, all right, I kind of know what I'm in for. It's like, it's kind of like running. Like if, if, if I know I'm gonna go do a half marathon for a day or whatever, like on a Saturday, I, it almost sometimes feels a little easier than like a six mile run. Because your mind, I feel like your mind adjusts. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So sometimes like a four hour flight feels longer than like a 15 hour flight to me. Because a 15 hour flight, I'm like mentally preparing for it for 24 hours. Whereas a four hour flight, five hour flights, like, oh, this isn't so long. And, and then you're hour three. You're like, man, when am I going to get off this damn thing? It's kind of like running.

[B]

Checking your watch every. Every 15 minutes.

[A]

I've had way more like miserable 4 mile, 5 mile runs than half marathons. A lot of times maybe that's just me. I don't know.

[B]

You've definitely run more than me.

[A]

Well, hey, you're getting after it.

[B]

I'm getting after we're training for it. So this, this race we have in January will be just a, the next step towards wanting to start dabbling with Some triathlons and getting where I told you. One of my big goals was to do an Ironman just because I'm starting to get back into running and so I know this will be just a first step in the right direction.

[A]

It's, I think like an Ironman used to be crazy, but it's like, I think it's a great thing for people to do. Like it's a cool life achievement anytime.

[B]

Anytime there's something out there. Especially with being fitness. If it's just a big, big goal that just seems like everybody's like, oh, that's unachievable. Yeah, that's the things I love to chase after.

[A]

Yeah. Where's the run at?

[B]

My run in January, it'll be just south of our hometown in Meridian.

[A]

It's a 50k you said?

[B]

Yeah, it's a 50k and it's a trail run.

[A]

Is it point to point or is it a loop?

[B]

No, it's four, four loops. At least I will get to come back to a, a tent, refuel, go again.

[A]

It makes it a lot logistically easier. Yeah.

[B]

I don't have to pack everything on me.

[A]

No, no, no, you can, yeah, you can just. Yeah. Have a tent there.

[B]

The group of us doing it, I feel like, I feel like it's going to be doable. Yeah, I feel like I'm gonna be just fine, especially with the group of guys we'll be with. But still, I've never run 32 miles before, so.

[A]

That's the fun of it though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that's the kind of stuff I try to do. Stuff that's scary. I like that kind of stuff and something like that that you haven't done before.

[B]

You're like, whenever you're training, do you train? So you got a hunt, you say you got a goal to do 100 miler. Are you going to train up to that or how. Whenever you're training up to that, how far are you going to run? What would be your longest run?

[A]

Training for that? So the first time I did a hundred miles, the longest I'd run was like 50, 15 miles training. I wasn't like, I wasn't really trained up before that. I had a little bit of an injury, so I was like deliberately not doing a ton of mileage. But I'm a big believer and I've reflected upon this a lot recently. I'm a big believer in doing work every day. And so while I hadn't done more than a 15 mile run at any given time, I had been running every day yeah, for months and months and months and months and months. And I train every day and people are like, what are you training for? I'm just training for life, man. Like, I. If I don't do something every day, I'm gonna go insane. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be an absolute animal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people, like, oftentimes they give me credit for. I feel like being further than I am from an age standpoint. I think a lot of that's just because I just get my energy out every day so that I can focus a little bit better. Because if I don't get it out, I would be a total piece of. I mean, really, like, I'd be a terrible person if I wasn't exercising every day.

[B]

Maybe not, but I understand what you're saying.

[A]

No, I. But I don't know how I would do life without it. I think about this all the time.

[B]

Just a part of your day.

[A]

It. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's like going to the bathroom. Like, it. It's just part of the day.

[B]

Which night? I've. I've gotten into rucking recently just because it's easy to do. Like last night after we got done eating, I went back to the hotel, put on a 45 or 50 pound bag and decided I just walk. It's something easy I can do. I don't know the area. I can just go walking.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And so it's just something I got out of my system last night.

[A]

But it's a. But it's a great workout.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The rucking is fantastic.

[B]

It. I mean, you're the benefits for it.

[A]

It's. It. Will you. Yeah, it's so much more.

[B]

Definitely wasn't a run, but it's a whole different set of muscles use. Yeah.

[A]

I've thought about. I've wanted to get one. I just haven't got around to it yet. Maybe, maybe at some point.

[B]

It's not the easiest thing to travel with, so it'd be tougher on you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Use it when you're home though.

[A]

Well, there was a guy. I forget who he was. He used to travel with a kettlebell or maybe still does. But like everywhere he went, he brought like an 80 pound kettlebell with him and he would check it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like flying, like he'd bring his kettlebell and he would just carry a kettlebell around.

[B]

He's paying for the extra weight everywhere he goes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But. But he did it for years and years and years and normal people are like, that's insane. But I'm Like, I kind of like that. I wouldn't do that.

[B]

That's his routine.

[A]

But I, I respect it. But yeah, my training regiment is just training every day. It's worked for me. I mean I've, I've run 100 miles with that strategy. I've qualified for the Boston Marathon with that strategy. I've competitively done triathlons with that strategy. Like that's my training plan is training.

[B]

What do you do to have to train? I mean, to qualify for the Boston.

[A]

Marathon, when I did it, you had to run under three hour marathon, which is like 650 miles for a marathon.

[B]

I won't be qualifying for the Boston Marathon.

[A]

Well, now it's even faster.

[B]

Now.

[A]

There's no way.

[B]

Dude, what about that guy? What did he run it in Sub two?

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's like running a marathon is one thing. Doing it fast, that's a, it's a, a completely different sport as far as I'm concerned. It's, it's a totally different experience. And, and it's not my thing. Just flat out for 26 miles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm good. I'm all right. I've thought a lot about this too though recently. Like you went to Dirt World and the talk I gave there was kind of like my next version of my talk. But I am, my problem is that I'm insane and I'm already now kind of scrapping it and working on another one that I think is better and more effective. It's, it's, it's, it's been speaking is probably the hardest skill I've ever worked on before.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

It's. It's so weird. It's such a puzzle. But the path I'm going down now, I've been. I think I've been too focused on protecting people's feelings in a way and making it about companies and not about individuals. But the success of your company really comes down to you as an individual. And if you're not doing the shit you need to be doing, your company is limited.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And I think you can extrapolate that to the overall industry and you can ask, is the leadership of the industry doing what is necessary to get us to the next level? And I don't think the answer. Well, the answer based on the data, based on where the industry is, is no. If they were, we'd be great. The future would be certain. Everybody would be good to go. Yeah, that's just not the case.

[B]

There wouldn't be a need for Build wet or dirt world or anything.

[A]

Nothing. No. Everybody would be good, but that's just not the case. And so now I'm like, well, actually, it starts with each individual leader and is each individual leader at each individual company doing the shit that they need to do? And I think it starts physically and mentally, like, you know, from the Bible. It's love your neighbor. What is it?

[B]

What's.

[A]

What's the.

[B]

Love the Lord your God first, then love your neighbor.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Love your neighbor as yourself.

[A]

Love. Love your neighbor as yourself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's roughly the translation. But people take that. You first go. Because your neighbor is first in that phrase. Oh, I need to take care of you first. But it's. No, no, no, no, no. You need to love yourself before you can love your neighbor. Are we loving ourselves?

[B]

Keep the first thing first.

[A]

Yes, yes. Are we loving ourselves? Are we loving ourselves physically? Are doing what we need to do physically, and then are we loving ourselves mentally?

[B]

And that's where I've struggled the last year and a half through some of the struggles we've gone through. And I've let my. If I had to scrap something, I scrapped that probably shouldn't have, but my discipline of working out every single morning used to. I was one of the people in the gym every single morning. I love the CrossFit world because of the nature, the family of it, the push, the accountability. And I just sort of scrapped that. It was like, look, I need to focus on this company for a while. And I just. I let my mind, I guess, get the best of me. So I'm just now getting back into it.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

Seeing how important it was in my life.

[A]

But. But how does that process. Because it was. It was really important to you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You've always.

[B]

It was.

[A]

Been into it.

[B]

I've always been into.

[A]

College athlete, you said? Yeah. What did you play?

[B]

I played baseball. Baseball at local community college. And so from then on, then we go to Mississippi State after that. And it was always. It's always been. Fitness has been just part of my life. Like, we'd, like. We talked about, it's just a discipline of every single day.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then. Yeah, after the last year and a half, I really just. Almost just quit.

[A]

But what's that? What's that? Is it like slow at first? Do you kind of miss one day at first? Yeah. And then it becomes easier and easier. Yeah. Slippery slope. Yeah. See, that's why I'm afraid of even missing one day. Yeah. I don't want to go down that path.

[B]

And then I would tell myself, okay, I can miss today. I'll. Tonight, I've got a full gym at my house, in my shop, and I say I'll. I work out when I get home. When I get home, the kids want to play. Everything else happen. Life happens. And of course I'm going to choose my kids over that. So just by not waking up in the morning and doing it is normally my first mistake. Because the day. The day drags on, I'm later getting home than normal. Then the kids want to play, and I'm definitely going to choose them. So it's just that slope starts getting slipperier and slipperier. Yeah.

[A]

And then. Do you. Had you maintained that over. Because we can. We'll probably get into it. I'm sure the, the, the brawl, the bar fight that you've been in for what, a year and a half now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you have been better off had you maintained that through the whole time?

[B]

Probably, yeah. Looking back on it, it's interesting.

[A]

It's, it's.

[B]

It is.

[A]

But it's so easy to do. That's. But that. But that. That's why I'm so fanatic about doing it every day, because I know I'm not. If I go down that slippery slope, I'm not good enough to get myself off. Like, I'm not better than anybody else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna start slipping right down that like anybody else. So that's why I stay away from it to begin with.

[B]

Yeah. I think my focus is more on. I still. The more I feel like the more you work out, you keep that competitive nature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your mind's more focused. And so that's where I'm trying to get back to why I chose this run. These guys, I hadn't been running at all. These guys told me five weeks ago they're running a 50K. So I'm in. Count me and I'll start training now.

[A]

That's good. That's really good. Yeah, it's also. I see this a lot on the, the, the mental side, too. Like right now, the suicide thing is commonplace. Like, it, it's entered conversation, I think most places right now in the industry.

[B]

I mean, it's an epidemic. I'm a youth pastor at our church, and it's a big thing in the youth also.

[A]

Yeah. But my problem is everybody's saying, we need to talk about it, and then that's it. And it's almost like if you're just going to say, we should talk about it, and you're not Going to do the work necessary and you're not going to do anything after that, then it's almost worse to say that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think, like, from a leadership standpoint, at least, what I've learned is I can say we should talk about mental health. Until I'm blue in the face, no one cares. It doesn't actually mean anything.

[B]

It's the actions that matter. Well, instead, what are you doing with your time?

[A]

Yeah. And like, hey, I've been down this road before. I've been in dark places. Like, it's probably not where you are. Everybody's in their own place. But I've been to a dark place before, and here's what I had to do to get out of it. Basically saying, I've done the work on me to figure this out. And here's what that looked like. Using myself as an example. That's been way more effective in talking with people.

[B]

Yeah. They want to talk to someone who's been in the trenches.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Exactly.

[B]

How do I get back out? What they want to know.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. But. But saying we should talk about it is a lot easier than actually doing the work yourself.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Doing the. Doing the work. The hard part. Nobody wants to do that.

[A]

Right. No, no, no, no. And. And I've realized, too, you can go through your whole life now not doing the work, but it. It will. It will get you at some point. It'll get you at some point in life if you don't do the work, if you don't deal with whatever's screwed you up. Because I think everybody's gotten screwed up somehow in some way. Like, no one. No one gets out of childhood unscathed. I just. There's just. I don't believe it. I haven't seen anybody actually get out of it unscathed. But a lot of people think they are. They go through life thinking they are, but it gets you in some way or another if you don't actually work on it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that was. That's what I was thinking about yesterday, too, which is why I bring it up. Like, instead of talking about mental health as an industry, like, why don't we take care of our. And talk about that? Because that's going to do a lot more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For people. But anyway, total tangent. The top question I'm asked is, what does Bill Witt do? Our purpose is to build the dirt world's next generation. The dirt world is the companies and people building the critical infrastructure and supporting those who build our critical infrastructure that we need to live the lives that we do. Our business is much bigger than me. I run around the world building our brand. But the business itself does two things. One, we help develop the next generation through our product called billwhit Improve. It's a daily training and development platform at about 300 civil construction companies are using to not just make their people better workers, but better people. And of course, we have the 2026 ARIAT Dirt World Summit. The best opportunity to develop yourself and your teams as. As leaders. So check us out. Billwhit.com book a meeting with us and we'll talk to you soon. You are from Mississippi, correct?

[B]

Born and raised.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Never lived outside of it.

[A]

Ever.

[B]

Ever.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I've left home as far as living was 50 miles.

[A]

There's been a few places in the United States that I've been to. And you go there and you're like, this is a different place. Mississippi is one of those places. It's just like, it's good, ain't it? Yeah. Yes, yes and no. Like, I like it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's also like the poverty is crazy in the South. Like, you don't, you don't really know poverty until you go to some places in like back road, South Carolina or Georgia or Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, and you're like, damn, this is, this is out here. These people are living a totally different world. But you're from Mississippi and you grew up around logging.

[B]

Yep. And I feel like people logging family, I guess my entire life.

[A]

Well, people from outside of the south of Mississippi don't know logging is really a thing there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think.

[B]

I don't know. I do.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's all you've ever.

[B]

All I've ever known. Right.

[A]

So your, your, your family logging business with pine?

[B]

Yes, primarily pine.

[A]

Pine.

[B]

And we cut. I mean they cut hardwoods too, but the majority of the market's pine.

[A]

Yeah. And that's like the whole South. It's incredible how much pine there is. And so growing up, you grew up around a walking business.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Did you work your childhood?

[B]

No, I didn't work out there. I always enjoyed when I had days off. I love going with my dad out there. And so I'd always get up and ride with him. Probably slept more than I thought I did. But I always enjoyed going out there. I had always had the opportunity to get on machines with guys. They showed me how to run it and I always loved being around it.

[A]

And it's.

[B]

But I never worked out there in it.

[A]

Okay, but you were what. There was Probably a family shop, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you're probably always around it.

[B]

Yeah, I was always around it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Always a fan of it. Went out there during the summer Christmas breaks, whatever it may be. I was going out there with my dad as much as I could.

[A]

Do you guys have random questions? Do you guys have those banana spiders?

[B]

No.

[A]

Those big yellow ones?

[B]

Wait. Yes. Okay. I thought you were referring to a machine of some sort.

[A]

No, spiders.

[B]

Yes, we have. We do.

[A]

The only time I've ever seen them is in a logging operation in the South. And they are terrifying.

[B]

They. They're massive.

[A]

They're giant. They're huge. I don't even. They might be invasive.

[B]

I don't have them at my house. My brother has one at his house right now.

[A]

They are huge. Like, they make a giant web.

[B]

I remember where we are in the house I grew up in, we always had one. Stayed in a certain corner around our house. And it was always just almost like a family pet, it seemed like.

[A]

So your dad, what. What did he do? He was. He was harvesting wood. So he was running crews?

[B]

Yeah, he. Or he was running the company. He got his start as a timber buyer for, like, Scott Paper Co. And some more local companies before he went out on his own in 99. And then. So he. He started off buying the timber for his own cruise and sort of grew organically from there until he got his own timber buyers now running a few crews, four timber buyers and some contract crews.

[A]

And the timber buyer is what?

[B]

They go out for us and bid on tracks, buy timber, whatever they keep. They keep wood in front of our crews.

[A]

Sure. So they go out, they find the tracks.

[B]

They're your business development, your estimator.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you have to go find wood to harvest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're the ones making that happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And each. There's different kinds of wood. It's not all the same.

[B]

No.

[A]

Different products, different mills.

[B]

Yeah. Some of them depending on the butt size and top sized.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where they go.

[A]

When you were becoming an adult, was that what you were gonna go do?

[B]

I always wanted to. When I was trying to figure out what I want to go to school for, my dad always told me, like, he would say, don't. Don't go do that. He said, go, go learn something in school. Learn business. Learn something. He said, if you want to come back to this business after college, I'll teach you how to do the logging. And so I originally had. Went to school for. Went to Mississippi State for real estate. One a year. Decided this was 2011 I believe I said I'm. I don't see myself getting a job in real estate. I don't want to sell houses. And so I had a year from graduating. I changed my major to agricultural engineering up there with a focus in land surveying. And so I'm gonna get on, become a land surveyor. That way I'm still out and about in the land doing my thing. And added, I guess, another year to school for me. I decided to get married. I was already engaged at the time, so we went ahead and got married. My wife was working, and through her working, I got connected to a guy that was trying to start a real estate office in Starkville. And so I decided to go. Already had all my prerequisites to get my license. I just didn't have a degree in it. So I went and got my real estate license. And then when I graduated, I just focused on selling recreational land, timberland like that. After I graduated, for five years, good experience, I enjoyed being out there selling the land. I just didn't enjoy sales. I wasn't a salesman. I enjoyed my product more than I enjoyed the actual sales.

[A]

When you say you didn't enjoy sales, like, what does that mean? How do you know?

[B]

I just, I wasn't someone that was going to go out there and just push something on people. I don't know.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I just, I just didn't. I didn't enjoy it. Yeah, I just didn't enjoy the sales mentality.

[A]

Yeah, well. And if you were in real estate now, you'd be having to make tiktoks and all kinds of.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was raised in the blue collar world where hard work is how you earn your living. And so that's where I found every avenue I could still to put in the hard work. And this little side story. My first time to learn how to run a bulldozer, my dad. I told my dad I wanted to learn how to run a bulldozer. I don't forget how old I was. But I had to be somewhere 10, 11 years old or so maybe he took me to one of his crews and told the guy what I wanted to do, his foreman. And so it was just big cutover and he had a John Deere 750. And he told me, he said, all right, I'm going to leave him with you for the day. So I stayed out there on that logging crew all day. This guy walked me down to an old loading ramp and said, all right, I want you for the next two hours just to push a hole, just Push dirt. Dig a hole as deep as you can with this bulldozer. I did that. We took lunch, and he said, now fill it back in. And that was. I can remember. That was probably. Probably the best day of my life as a kid. Getting out there on a John Deere 750, just pushing.

[A]

That's. But that's a. That's a good teaching moment.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

Dig a hole and then. Because filling it back up is a lot harder than digging it.

[B]

Yeah. I don't remember what it looked like. Yeah. Probably didn't look the best. I'm pretty sure they had to go back and fill it back in after I was over. I mean, straighten it up. But how many kids have the opportunity to do that?

[A]

Yeah. How good is that?

[B]

I had the. I had the. I had to set up for it now.

[A]

Well, while I was learning, it was like some of the dirt would disappear, you know, midway through. You couldn't find all the dirt all.

[B]

Stuck to the blades.

[A]

I don't know where it would go, but, like, you know, wouldn't be perfectly flat anymore. When you put it all back, you're like, where'd the rest go? Yeah, that. That's as good as.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is where I've got.

[B]

I've got memories of when Katrina came through. So we got a logging company. Timber. Pine popped off everywhere. I remember being able to get on one of our skitters and just drive it down the highway. And so we're going and pulling trees out of some of our family's yards, other people's yards. And it was. It was a good childhood. And that's when. That's what I enjoyed was the work.

[A]

Well, a skitter. For people that don't know, it's a giant rubber tired machine. With a claw.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the blade on.

[B]

Grab as many trees as you can and pull.

[A]

And a giant claw. Yeah, yeah. Grabs the trees, pulls them through the woods. Well, people talk about. Yeah. Inspiring the next generation. And it's like, put them in a bulldozer and let them dig a hole for two hours.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You'll inspire them. Like, they.

[B]

They don't need a PowerPoint's dream come true. There's.

[A]

Yeah. They don't need an iPad. They don't need a PowerPoint.

[B]

They don't need no PlayStation or Xbox or.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You just put them in the seat of a machine, let them rip you. So you were selling recreational land.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What does that look like in Mississippi?

[B]

I mean, it's everywhere. I mean, it's a lot of. Lot of undeveloped land. So.

[A]

Yeah, but how are people recreating deer.

[B]

Hunting, turkey hunting, fishing. That's. That's what drives our. I mean, this is November right now, so it's on everybody's mind. Gun season starts this week.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so the work becomes less important. Recreational, whether it's hunting or fishing, whatever it may be. Hunting right now being the focus is way more important than everything right now. And so any. Any undeveloped land right now, someone's trying to find a deer slipping through.

[A]

So you would sell people just big tracts of land that's. It's undeveloped.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They don't want to develop it. They just want to set up some deer stands.

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was the majority of my business. Of course we would sell land for people to build a house on.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But that was, that was just part of it.

[A]

Now. Does everybody deer hunt? Pretty much.

[B]

Not everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But a large majority. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I. Growing up in a city, most people don't deer hunt where I. Where I.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. In the desert, not a whole lot of deer hunting. Not a lot of whitetail.

[B]

Yeah. It's a big thing. I mean, we got a lot of people come up from Louisiana also to our area.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When's the turkey season?

[B]

Turkey season starts in mid March. Runs through normally March 15 to May 1.

[A]

What do you like better?

[B]

Deer. Turkey Deer. For me.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Now I enjoy turkey hunting. I'm not very good at it, if I'm being honest, so I normally have to go with somebody. But people get die hard turkey. And normally. Normally your people that deer hunt, they also turkey hunt.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But. So I don't know. I can't speak for everybody. I'm a deer guy. I love deer.

[A]

So being that you were a deer guy, you would probably pretty effective at selling land.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For that. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I had the passion for it.

[A]

Yeah. You knew what you're talking about. Why are you not still doing that?

[B]

So we had an opportunity through or I guess. Let me, let me back up just a little bit on the side. We were. I was helping develop some of these properties. I was building roads, putting pipe in. Just basically putting access into place. Maybe clear. Clear an opening for someone to build a food plot for these deer.

[A]

So you would. Yeah. You would sell them piece of property.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What would like an average piece of property be?

[B]

I mean, acreage wise?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean you could save anywhere from 40 to 80 acres. Be an average.

[A]

So you'd tell them like an undeveloped 80 acre plot.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is Totally undeveloped. So it's just trees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you would. Then they would need. You would need to clear a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of that land.

[B]

You need to get on it somehow.

[A]

Yeah, you need to get on it, and then you need a little bit of space to hunt it effectively. And you would help do that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you came up from a forestry background.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Okay. And so I would. If it had good marketable timber, I would talk to them and try to get some of our timber buyers involved and try to come out there and cut it, clear some of it out of the way for me. We would use that to build the roads in there, whatever it may look like. And so doing that on the side, I was starting to dabble in, I guess you can say. Some dirt work opportunity came up locally to partner with a guy in town. They've been doing dirt work for a long time. And so we, I guess, essentially bought his machines. He came to work for us. He's always. Dustin's always been the field guy for us. And I was the office guy. Knew nothing about dirt work six years ago, at least the civil industry. And so it's been a crash course from there. But whenever you. When you got people that got their own strengths, it makes it a lot easier. No. And he was able to be out there working the quality side of stuff and teaching me along the way. I was able to do the back office stuff through real estate and doing different stuff. I was decent at business side. Definitely still don't have it all figured out.

[A]

But why get into dirt work, though, in its entire life?

[B]

I was just looking for something different. If I'm being honest. When I'm out there, I found enjoyment when I was out there developing those pieces of timber or, you know, undeveloped tracks of land for recreational. And so whenever the opportunity came around, I jumped at the opportunity. So it was a family decision, but I was. I was all in because I knew that this would. Is something that I enjoyed. Looking back on it now, I probably then couldn't have told you that, but now I look at it as blue collar world. That's what I was raised in.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I just wanted to be back in it.

[A]

So you enjoy. You enjoyed the work?

[B]

I would do it all over again.

[A]

Yeah. And you didn't enjoy the selling part?

[B]

No.

[A]

So you're looking to get rid of that and just do what you did enjoy, which was the work.

[B]

Yeah. Hard work.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Talk about the mentality. I was almost like the CrossFit thing just in. I'm a sucker for Hard work.

[A]

Well, and we all are. Yeah. It's to be in dirt, work, site work. Like, that's the table stakes. Like, working hard. If anybody says, like, if anybody wants credit for how hard they work in this world, they're in the wrong world.

[B]

That's part of our purpose.

[A]

Well, it's just. Yeah. It's what you have to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm glad I had at least a little bit of it to understand it. Like, I had enough to understand it, which I'm really grateful for, because, yeah, it's. It's. It's tough, but that's what we need. Like, we need people willing to work hard because that's how the world works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The world's not on a computer. Go figure.

[B]

Yeah. And there's still a bunch of good guys out there. I can picture guys now that come to work and just seeing how, you know, if you look at the guys that are. The young guys are thriving in it. They just want to know more. They want to work hard, and they're gonna take that shovel from you. It's amazing seeing these guys, the guys that have that work ethic and want to work hard are the ones that are gonna go a long ways.

[A]

Well, we just. Glenn Baranko, he just had me. Him and I went to go talk to, like, you know, six students, five, six students at Bismarck, maybe State College, Community College. They're gonna smack me for screwing up the name of it, but it's a heavy equipment operators program through the community college there in North Dakota. And I was there speaking to the. To the Lignite Energy Council, which was great. But before we go out and talk to these kids, and that was like. Whenever I talk to kids, that's one of the biggest things, is this world is spectacular because it doesn't give a shit who you are, where you're from, what your education level is. It doesn't. Like, none of that matters. And. And in most other places in the world, that really matters. It really matters. Here, it doesn't matter. It just matters how much you put in.

[B]

Right. The work.

[A]

Yeah. And if you put in more, you're gonna get more. Like, it's. It's almost always directly proportional. There's. There's just. There's no shortcut to it whatsoever. So whatever you put in is what you're gonna get out. And that's what's beautiful about this, is it does reward. Again, it doesn't matter who you are, what your last name is, who your dad was. Well, sometimes. The work is what Gets you ahead.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when you see somebody understand that, it's awesome. And then when you see somebody just not grasp that, it is the most maddening thing in the world.

[B]

It's frustrating.

[A]

Oh boy, is it frustrating. And you can, the biggest bummer is you can kick them in the ass. Based on what I've learned, at least you can give them a boot in the ass and they might get going for a little bit and then they'll oftentimes just revert back to where they were and, and you're sitting there, you're like short lived. Well, you're just hoping they'll get it. Like I understand it's in your best interest to get it. Like, man, just get it and everything becomes a lot better. I promise. Yeah, but some people just can't get there, dude.

[B]

Aaron we're so fortunate. We get. Our work, of course is hard anyways, so we're, we're typically working as a subcontractor. So we're working under these GCs that frustrate us and frustrate everybody. Just makes the work a little bit harder. They would, but I'm putting a blanket over all of them. We got some good relationships with some. We've got great superintendents, better on superintendents that I hope I never see again.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But overall the guys we have working for us, they, they really enjoy their work. They're fun to be around. Everybody's working for the same, same goal. It's amazing to see the guys we have working for us. Overall, most everybody that works for us is awesome because they, they enjoy it. They get it. Still small enough to. That they know, I guess other crews know each other, give each other almost still that competitive nature. But when you go to the job site, you don't see anybody just dragging up. They're all, they're all excited to be there. And it's news. It seems like coming from our crews and how they work together, you can.

[A]

You can watch a crew and tell pretty quickly what kind of crew it is and what kind of operation it is and what kind of company it is by watching a crew. And when you see a crew really working together, it is the most fun. Like it is the most fun I've ever had from like a just pure work standpoint is when I was on it was this one pipe crew. Everybody else was Mexican but me. And we had a blast because these guys, they worked so damn hard. They talked so much shit. I mean, just out of control. And it took me a little bit to like, I'm A pretty patient person. And it got to me some days because. Also. Because it's, you know, 115 and miserable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that was part of the. It was just like. It was just a blast. We were just kicking ass. We were working hard. The numbers we were putting up were awesome. Nothing was going to get in our way. Everybody's attitude was. Was great and it was a blast. Whereas you can go to other projects and I've been on them where like, either everybody's out for themselves, which is actually pretty common.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And depends where you are at in the country, too. Or people are. They're just there to get by, make some money and get on with it. And there's. There's easier ways.

[B]

They won't stay long there.

[A]

No. I'll be the first one to say.

[B]

Our goal, I hope. Hopefully we've built that culture. I say we are. Our guys in the field, we try to, you know. You know, find the right guys. But when we have them, we try to hold on to them. But by doing that, you're going to attract the ones that are like you. And so them being able to handle this hard work with a smile on their face, work for these Jesus that are difficult to deal with with a smile on their face, just help them get up the next day and get going.

[A]

How. How old are most of them?

[B]

Like, what's the we're young workforce? I don't know what our average age would be, but we have a lot of guys in their 20s and 30s.

[A]

But I thought people in their 20s sucked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's what the world says. I've got two foremans that are in their 20s. So how'd you.

[A]

How did you find these guys?

[B]

I guess you can just say they came to us, but one of our. One of our foremen, it was. Funny story, when he originally came and interviewed for us, we were real young. Then this kid comes straight out of school wanting to come interview straight out of a local community college. They had a heavy operators course. And he just came and interviewed and he told me his name. First time, I didn't catch it. And he told me his name a second time. No, no, he didn't know. He kept talking. I sort of started piecing some stuff together. I said, what did you say your name? Once again, he told me. And I realized that whenever I was just starting to get to where I could drive a truck and go date girls, I had dated his sister. But he was a baby then. And so it's funny, but he's one of Our young foremen now.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

Yeah. And he just has a passion for it. He may kill me if he hears me say this. I know he will because he loves talk, listening to the podcast. But um, we were working up at Mississippi State and he's been on that nightmare of a job and for that young of a kid to be up there, I think spectacular.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But he made the statement to me, if girls found heavy operating machines as sexy as I do, he said, I would have them flocking all over me up here at Mississippi State.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

So that's his passion for it, I bet. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He just loves the work.

[A]

Yeah. So you, you, you, you end up with some earth moving machines.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then you just start bidding work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you don't know what you're doing.

[B]

We didn't say no to nothing.

[A]

And how'd that work out?

[B]

For the most part it worked out. We were only sort of like Tasmanian devil, just blowing through stuff. Everything was going good. We didn't know how to keep books that well probably, but we just knew that we were able to pay our bills and we just kept on growing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And due to us doing real good quality work. And so we kept getting calls. And so when we started getting relationships with these contractors, we didn't want to say no to them when they called us, say, can you bid this? Well of course we can. We'll figure out how to do it later. That's how we just grew and kept hiring people. But yeah, so yes, we, we would start bidding stuff. We would, me and Dustin, the guy that was, that we partnered up with, he would, we would both be out there working at the time. We'd come in three or four o'clock in the morning, put bids together. I may, would go in and do a takeoff. I learned how to do takeoffs. And so we would come in three or four o' clock in the morning, put the bed together, go back to work. And so that was the candle we were burning at both ends for a little while.

[A]

And you, you have a family too? Like young kids at this point, right.

[B]

At the time when we started. So my daughter, she's six now, right? Yeah, six now. She was one years old when we started the company.

[A]

So did you start in 2020?

[B]

Started in 2020. We incorporate. Yeah, we, we, I guess our paperwork was official. January 2020. We partnered up with Dust in November of 2019. Our first contracted job is. It's a fun story to tell. Our first contract we ever got started in March of 2020. That's when the world shut down. Right. So we got that on a Thursday. We started work on that Thursday. The Saturdays, whenever the world was going to shut down, you couldn't get out of the house unless you had a central employee paperwork. We didn't know what it was going to look like. And ended up. Of course, looking back on it now, nothing much changed.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I remember we were. We were standing that next week, we were standing close. Close to a local road or main street through town, and a woman came through because we were sitting there shoveled. We were digging a hole out together, and she yelled at us from her car window that we were not six foot apart. And that's the world we started in.

[A]

But was it pretty lax in Mississippi?

[B]

It was. It was. Yeah. You're always going to be a few uptight people.

[A]

Yeah. But in Mississippi, it was.

[B]

It was very easy going, I bet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Almost like not a whole lot changed.

[A]

Yeah. Not a whole lot changed. Yeah. That's. Honestly, I got lucky. Arizona was like that way, too. I. When I came to Nashville, it was. It was more than Arizona. Like Arizona. It kind of shut down for a little bit from like a. You couldn't go to a restaurant. You could just get takeout was the big thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The restaurants were still open. I think that was the biggest change was.

[B]

Yeah. You remember that.

[A]

You had to get takeout. But otherwise everything was still blowing and going.

[B]

Yeah. So that's our. That's our knowledge of the industry. I don't. I didn't know the civil world before COVID Okay. And so we learned real quick.

[A]

You know, a lot of people, for whatever reason, they message me thinking I'm an expert on how to start a civil construction company, even though I've never done it. And I won't say I know how. How do you figure out how to bid a job? And I tell them, go bid a job.

[B]

Yeah. You just got to know how long it's going to take and what it's going to take to do it. How much money you want to put on it.

[A]

You'll know. Pretty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How to bid a job. Once. Once you bid a job. And if you get your ass handed.

[B]

To you now, we're still just trying to learn cash flow. We still don't have it figured out. I don't think you ever know.

[A]

No, no, no. Cash flow.

[B]

The world would be a lot better if they would just pay us to do our work before we ever get started.

[A]

Well, and they don't tell you that that's the solution for it as a contractor, you're also a banker, right. You're also financing projects. Yeah. Which again is. Is so ass backwards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'll be working for a giant general contractor, you know, making a billion dollars, whatever it is, annually. And you get. You're the one sitting there waiting for a pay app to go through. Like you're what, 90 days in at.

[B]

This point, man, I. We've got one. I want to brag on them. We've got one local contractor that it don't. When you come to work for them on their job, you turn in your payout in 15 days, you're paid.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It's amazing. And it don't matter if it takes them 90 days to get paid, they're paying you.

[A]

But that's like kind of how it should be.

[B]

They'll tell you on these, change orders, get work done. We'll pay you on the next payout. We'll work on getting the paperwork done.

[A]

But, but like what's the point of a general contractor if they don't do that? Is my. Is, is. Is. Is.

[B]

I mean, my struggle, you know, everybody's beaten down the doors to work for that contractor.

[A]

Well, yeah, yes, yes, of course, yes.

[B]

They don't get the best price.

[A]

Isn't the general contractor the one supposed to take the risk? But no, that's not how it works.

[B]

No. The paperwork, the contracts shift, all that.

[A]

Yeah. Because they've got the lawyers. So you take the risk even though, like. Yeah, we don't. You know, if you, if your business succeeds or fails, we don't really care. Like we're out for us and we're going to make our percentage and it's. Yeah, it drives me nuts. But. So you went and started doing like just basic site work at first.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What was the first job?

[B]

First job was just a parking lot at a new building they were building in town.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And that was it. Just grading for this parking lot.

[A]

But you had a partner that kind of knew how to build.

[B]

Yeah. He'd been doing it for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so he was, he was known for his quality and his. That was, I guess, his background. He had been doing small operation doing that. And so through some of his connections we got connected doing a couple additions to some high schools and let's see, we did a couple fast food restaurants, eased up, got some tractor and pan, started moving some dirt or got one tractor and pan and then got another and slowly grew that side where we, we had a crew up in Jackson, Tennessee here, moving some Mass ex dirt for some sites, some apartment complexes, some warehouses stayed up around there, around the Memphis area, just south of Memphis back into Mississippi, some doing that. We still had some crews down in our part of the world doing commercial work. And so we've done banks, warehouses, offices, restaurants, just anything that had dirt under it. Commercial builds.

[A]

How have you found work?

[B]

So you're about to make a trade.

[A]

Based on a friend's text, but which.

[B]

You do you listen to is it we could buy a house in Tulum, get optioning those options.

[A]

We could lose everything. Or let's do a little research, get.

[B]

Your head in the trade and make.

[A]

The investment decision that's right for you. Learn [e-mail] TradeSmart.

[B]

We were doing a whole bunch, I guess I used, did use my sales background a little bit. Bunch of calling a lot of visiting people. What do you know is going on? A lot of word of mouth, a lot of talking.

[A]

Looking at bedrooms, general contractors, developers.

[B]

Yeah, these general contractors didn't have a clue who we were.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But that's how we initially did it. I mean we, we were small so we weren't looking for a whole lot of work. So it didn't take, didn't take too much effort. I guess I can say sure we were able to keep just enough work ahead of our crews. Now we get more bid invites than we can shake a stick at. I get tired of bid invites coming through my inbox every day.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Yeah. Wow.

[A]

Is there that much work going on?

[B]

It's a lot of work. And I know some of these plan rooms that we're a part of. I just, I know they're sending out blanket emails to everybody.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So most of them, they don't even know they sent me an invite. But it's still a lot of work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our estimator, he has his hands full, he bids a lot of work.

[A]

But now you have a full time estimator. Yeah. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand too is just how much work you have to estimate to get work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you're just landing a small percentage of what you estimate. I, that's why I hated estimating. I worked in estimating office for two years while. Yeah, while I was doing my classes I would do like maybe like 20 hours a week. I mean it was, it was to be an engineering school. Like it was because engineering school's a mission. Like you're in the. At least I was, I was in the trenches, man. But it was almost like a Break from school. I needed something else. And I would do takeoffs and help with estimating dot jobs. It was all public bid type work, low bid. And it was miserable. Miserable because you work like four weeks on something. You work and work and work and work and work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you get third, and then you throw everything in the fucking trash can and Monday starts over. Here's your next plan set. And there you are, right back at it. And up. This one we got fifth. This one we got second.

[B]

And it was just seconds of worst also.

[A]

Second's the worst. Yes. Well. And second, when it's by like a pretty thin margin, when you lost it by like a percent, that's the one that really hurts. But for me, it was just demoralizing. I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't put effort towards something that I thought was just like wasted effort. It didn't make sense to me. But that's part of the game. You have to bid so much to land whatever you need at any given time. And it's. And it's a non. I mean, you're always having to adjust that as the year goes on, as the market changes, as you blow through work. Like it's. It's a lot to balance as a contractor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're five years in.

[B]

Yep. Will be, I guess. Would that be year. Yeah, this be year six coming up in January.

[A]

Yeah, Year six.

[B]

Year six.

[A]

I know. It's still like in the works from a figuring it out standpoint, so we don't have to get into specifics of the turd job that you've been on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like who it was. Etc. Go into it however you want to go into it. But it sounds like you've learned some lessons.

[B]

We've learned lessons. Understatement. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You've done some. You've done some learning. Yeah, we're better.

[B]

We're better than we were.

[A]

So. Yeah. You. Like the short story is you get a job, it ends up being a complete disaster.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You end up having to redo.

[B]

We had our fair share of problems that we done with it also, but.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm not gonna point 100% blame at everybody else.

[A]

There was some outside influence.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

In the problems that had occurred. And you end up taking a.

[B]

Taking one to the chin.

[A]

A haircut. Yeah, Big haircut. Because you had to essentially do the job over.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In even more stringent, tight conditions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then you bid the job initially for.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So you did the job initially. Did the job with nobody on site. Then we went back and redid all the work within building. A five story on top of you. On top of it, Yeah. A lot of deep pipe.

[A]

So what'd you, what'd you learn?

[B]

We learned that we didn't have the processes in place at the time. We didn't have the right people in place. But it's all hindsight. It's 2020 and so we can look back on it now and say if we would have done this better, we may wouldn't have been in this. If we would have asked the right questions, that would have been a huge start. That's where I'm saying if we had the right people in place that would have asked the right questions before we ever kicked off, we would have voided 90% of this.

[A]

What is a right question?

[B]

This design, just this, this design don't look right. This just someone that would have known. We were young so we didn't have that, that type of knowledge either at the time. We can look back on it now and say now we can look at it and we ask it on every job now, hey, we're not going to do that because we know the outcome of it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so story goes, we put some pipe in the ground, it's deflected. We go back, back and forth versus design. And we, we ended up changing the design sort of on our own and it ended up being everything's good now. But just, just that the atmosphere of, well, you, you signed the paperwork so you have to, you have to do it yourself. You have to figure it out. These, these people that they want to shift all liability away from themselves.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I'm stuck at the bottom of the hill catching all of it.

[A]

Well, and I mean that's what they. I went to engineering school. That's how they train you. Day one, from an engineering standpoint, just avoid. Yeah, exactly. Cover your ass in every which way. Avoid any liability whatsoever. And that's like one of the big things is like just multiply everything by three. Why? We're just gonna call it a safety fact. It's for safety. Just multiply it by three. Like get your final answer. Be sure about that final answer and then just multiply it by three and then there you go. And. But it's all about liability. It's all about. I'm reading a book right now on it's a difference between America and China. And China is an engineering society is what they call it. America is a lawyer society. And it's like, yeah, that's kind of how it is, like, we're regulated by lawyers, and the GCs do things because of lawyers, engineers do things because of lawyers, project owners because of lawyers, contractors because of lawyers. Like, everybody's dictated to by lawyers. And it's all, yeah, how do I protect myself? And, oh, well, what about this, like, totally abstract potential happening? It could happen. Well, let's protect ourselves from that. And you end up, like, even how you were saying, even the fix you end up with just, this becomes way more complicated than it needs to be.

[B]

Way more complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I believe. I believe we've done the right thing. We stuck in there. We didn't run from it. We fixed the problem. And luckily, we didn't lose a single guy on that crew because of it. That just shows you the mentality of these guys. They're willing to stick in there with it. And, yeah, we won't repeat that problem.

[A]

So, like, had you had somebody more experienced, they could have looked at it from the beginning and said, hey, there's.

[B]

Been a lot better chance of it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you can look at it.

[B]

Now we. We know, hey, if there's a problem, let's attack it fast. Let's get ahead of this thing.

[A]

But isn't that. I know it's still fresh, but doesn't. I feel like that's just part of the process?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As part of the learning curve as a contractor is you've got to have a job like that where you lose your ass.

[B]

Yeah. You're gonna have some.

[A]

Well, yeah. Yeah. You've got to touch the stove to know it's hot. And now. All right, I know that stove's hot. I don't need to go back and do that again. Which in theory, like, we've kind of made those mistakes too, where at the time they're really expensive. But then you're like, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do everything I can to make this, in the grand scheme of things, a really cheap mistake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is where I think you are, too.

[B]

Yeah. So we get this job behind us now.

[A]

Now it's. Now you're out of it.

[B]

Now we're finally out of it. Finally passed it. At least. At least we're off that job and it's opened up, owners are happy, and so everybody else just use it as a bragging point. Is a beautiful building. It is really beautiful building. Sure. So we. We can add that to the list of, hey, here's our portfolio. Here's a job we've done.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it looks Great.

[B]

Looks fantastic. Yeah.

[A]

It's. Again, though, I just. That's part of it. I don't. I don't know a single contractor that hasn't had horrible jobs.

[B]

I know. Looking back on the. On the summit just a couple weeks ago here, the. For me, the most impactful speaker was Ryan Schmidt and his story. And coming out of that, it was awesome, dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's one thing he said that I'll. It'll stick with me. He had. I think he was telling a story. He had one of his employees or someone asked what was the most impactful job he's ever had, and it was the one that went south on him. This will be the one that's most impactful for us. Sure. Yeah. And so I'll always. We'll always remember that we're gonna put something up to memorialize this job in our office.

[A]

That'd be great. Yeah.

[B]

May we never forget.

[A]

Well, but I think that's. I think that's important because I think sometimes people want to just bury it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And not ever talk about it again because it's so traumatic in a lot of ways. But I think that does you a huge disservice.

[B]

I mean, going back to what we early or talked on earlier, you know, being people being in the dark, you know, you got to come out and be open and honest, and whenever you become honest and transparent about stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's when. That's whenever you get real growth.

[A]

Yes. But that's much easier said than done.

[B]

Oh. Way. I understand the right thing to do is very rarely. Is it the easiest thing to do.

[A]

No, I.

[B]

And I, like, that's where that mentality, mindset has to step in.

[A]

Yeah. But, yeah, going back to. Going back to what I was talking about earlier, it's like, I understand why people don't deal with their shit and don't talk about mental health themselves. Because it's scary, it's hard, it's uncomfortable.

[B]

So much rather run from it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And, like, it's. It's tempting to me all the time, but I. I mean, that's where our values is huge. Like, transparency wins is one of our values.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And every time. Every time I'm nervous about sharing something, it means you needed a green light. Green light. Yeah. That means. Yeah. I've gotta. I've gotta. I've gotta do this. Every time it's uncomfortable. Every time I find myself trying to talk myself out of something, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I'm starting to leave.

[B]

Don't run from it.

[A]

Grab myself by the collar and drag myself back like, hey, buster, we're not doing this. We're not negotiating here. You know exactly what needs to happen. Just go get it done. Because on the other side of it, that's, that's the best thing to do. Yeah. And it's, you can learn that lesson. But it is a non stop battle. Yeah. Non stop battle. And, and now I've probably thought more about like telling the truth over the past three months than I maybe have ever. And like being really critical. And it starts with me, like, am I telling the truth to myself? And where am I lying to myself and where am I lying to others? Or maybe it's not like I think we think a flat out lie is just like a blatant lie. But a lot of times it's the little stuff. It's the real little stuff. And I've been looking for it more and more and more. Or even like we, we had, we had these decisions from a people standpoint over maybe like two months ago now, three months ago. It's been a little bit. And I like crafted the narrative a little bit. Not in a untruthful manner, but I was like, I was being careful with my words because I didn't want to hurt feelings or anything like that. And afterwards it was like that was a mistake being careful with my words. Like I should just say what the, what I think and say how it is. And however people react, that's not my responsibility.

[B]

I've always been. And I'm still struggling with. And we'll always try to get, I'm trying to get past this right now. Is the me not saying stuff, thinking I'm protecting people or protecting their feelings?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I just never worked. It never works. And starting to realize don't mean I still don't struggle with it. But saying what needs to be said for the benefit of them and for us is way more revelant. I mean, way more important now than it ever has been. And so getting ahead of the same way, getting ahead of problems before they get worse.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of it too is understanding that even though you do that for other people, expecting it in return is unreasonable. Like, especially dealing with others, like outside of your company, you can be honest all day long. It's not going to happen with most everybody you deal with. That's just not where most people are. But like understanding that, I feel like saves yourself a lot of like, it's, it's. We're reading this book right now, internally, it's called the Four Agreements. And one of the things that stuck with me in it is like not taking people lying to you personally because their argument was like, well, they lie to themselves, of course they're gonna lie to you. But that's not, that's not a reflection of you. That actually has nothing to do with you. It's like, oh, man, that's tough. But yes, like, that's exactly it. Like, just because you don't lie to other people does not mean people are not gonna lie to you. But don't take it personally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not about you, it's about them. And just keep doing what you need to do. That's all you need to worry about is you. You don't need to worry about other people. You can't control other people. You can just control you. That's it. That's it. So, but I think like, contractors going to this situation, they'll take a bad job personally and then they get themselves in trouble. They go get lawyers involved, they go try to brawl it out. They take it personally, they're going to prove that they're right. And what do they get for it?

[B]

Nothing. Another black.

[A]

Another black eye. I mean, it's a. You tear, you take it. Yeah. You turn a year and a half of stress that should be over into three years, and then you get nothing for it.

[B]

I mean, these big contractors, they. This, like this one right here was a 298 page contract.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they just hide every little thing in there.

[A]

Well, exactly. And they're not gonna use most of it unless they need to use it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then they can say, well, in, you know, on page 193, it actually says XYZ. Yeah. So sorry, Bob. You signed it.

[B]

You signed, you signed that signature right there.

[A]

Yeah. Whose signature is it? Yours. Oh, okay. Well, then there's nothing to discuss. And again, you can sit there and you can go try to parse their words with your lawyer, but it's all just this game. The lawyers win, you don't win, they don't win. No one wins.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you personally like the stress and then just the mental energy involved in fighting. Something like that.

[B]

Let's move on and let's go get better. Dude. Our office here and our staff and just here recently we had our 2026 strategy meeting. And just the atmosphere around that meeting, everybody's attitudes going forward, it's. It's awesome. Like, I'm ready to see what 2026 looks like because everybody's fired up. Is it because we're all on the same page? So we got a fresh breath after. After we finish this job. Now we're able to stretch out a little bit. Now we're able to move. It's going to be uncomfortable still. We still on that road to recovery is what we're calling it. But just the attitude in the office, you can just feel that, feel it changing. Everybody knows that's behind us. We're back on fantastic jobs, building relationships again. And it's just. It's a good feeling.

[A]

You're gonna have fun again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're back. We're back. We're back in the saddle, man.

[A]

Well, that's. That's a good place to be. I think we're. We're getting into that place now, too. For 26, it's been a miserable year, and last year was a miserable year. The year before that was a miserable. It's been like years of misery. I feel like. And from a business standpoint, like, I've had fun. I've been able to go all over and like, this year has been one of the coolest years of my life from an experience standpoint, but from a business standpoint, it is miserable. And I am just so ready to be out of it. And we're like, you're starting to see it now a little bit. Especially coming off summit, like.

[B]

Whenever you come back from your travels and you come back to work, you, like, sort of dreaded a little bit. Like, man, I just really enjoy it out there. Now I gotta get back to work. I say it because our guys, they know that any moment I get, I'm gonna be in that ditch with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't get to do it nowhere near as much as I used to. Yeah, it was at least three or four days a week. Now it's. I'm lucky if I get out of the office one or two days a week.

[A]

I don't like. Fortunately, I don't.

[B]

I love still getting down in that ditch and digging with them. I know it's not my place now. I got to keep the company moving.

[A]

Yeah, you have to be careful. But I. To do more of that. That's. We have great leaders. We have Jason over dirt world, Dan over sales and marketing, Cara doing systems, and then Randy really running product and. And finances and the business. And so I can do that pretty comfortably now. Not comfortably, but, like, what happens when I come back, It's. It's really weird. Like, I'll be super bummed out and not because I'm going back to work. I actually love it. Like, Sunday night comes around and Monday comes back. I'm like, let's go. And I work Saturday. Sunday, like, I worked a full day yesterday. I worked full day Saturday. But it's like, I get to be doing things with our people again on Monday. Like, that's the excitement for me. But Saturday, so I came off, it was really weird. I. So we did the. The. The summit that you were at in Dallas, and It's, you know, 1400 people, whatever it was, and I'm talking to people non stop.

[B]

Yeah. You had someone with you at all times on.

[A]

Yeah, for days, which is awesome. It's not. It's not.

[B]

But it's tiring.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's. It's. It's just like, it's so. It's a lot mentally. And then I went to VAC from their vacation with my family in Belize. And like the day after, I was just super bummed out, just super down, super sad because it was such this, like, you just. You're in a totally different place mentally. Like, just black and white. You. You have so many people, all these interactions, and then the next day, nothing. And your mind just has. No. At least mine doesn't. Like, I don't know what to do. And then I go from there, travel up to North Dakota to speak, and then we go to a mine with North American coal, have a great time, hang out on the drag line, and then I come home and so I'm with people for like a week and a half. And then Saturday, super bummed out all day. Just. Just fucking bummed because again, you go from like, non stop stimulation, you're driving a new car every day, you're sleeping in a new place every day, you're eating in a different place for three meals every day. You're in a new city, you're meeting new people. Like, it's new, new, new, new, new, new, new, new, new. And then it just stops. And then in the music just stops. And it's great, but it takes me like 24 hours to, like. And then yesterday was much better. Like, oh, okay, all right. I'm not like clinically depressed here. I just. I had a. I had a bummer of a day, but that's fine. That's just part of it. And now I know it's part of it, so I can digest it a little bit more. But then I come back to business. I'm like, this is awesome. I get to have a podcast today. I get to. We have these Meetings. I'm trying to book a trip today to. For. In a few weeks we go out to the. Hopefully the Middle east, which is gonna be awesome again. I can't wait. Like, it's non stop fun, but it, like it can wear you out in different weird ways. I didn't explain that very well.

[B]

No, just fine.

[A]

But that's at least.

[B]

You're talking about the roller coaster there.

[A]

It's a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah, it's a roller coaster. And I try to talk about it more just so like, maybe somebody out there is like, oh, it's not just me because it's so I wrote about it not too long ago. Like, I'm. How old are you?

[B]

34.

[A]

34, yeah, I'm 30.

[B]

I'll be 35 in two days.

[A]

So you're born, you're born in the 90s?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Child of the 90s.

[B]

I was child. I was born in 90.

[A]

Hey, there you go. Just golden age, man. Golden age. But I feel like, I don't know if this is true for you, but as I've now gotten a little further in business, everybody's no longer on a pedestal. Like, I used to see these business leaders and kind of put them up on a pedestal, like, wow, that's. They have 500 employees or whatever. Wow. You know, a billion dollars in revenue. That's crazy. This and this and that. And now I just kind of see them as people and. Which has been great, but painting with a very broad brush, also very disappointing because everybody. And again, it's just human nature, but they're making it seem like everything's just awesome all the time.

[B]

It's beautiful on LinkedIn. Right?

[A]

It's nothing but good. We are killing it on projects. We are making so much money. We just got like seven new awards last week. Our people are just unbelievable. We've never had a problem with our people ever. Like, life is unbelievable. And I'm like, you get in those moments where you're like, am I the only jackass here? Like, am I the only guy that can't figure this out?

[B]

And then.

[A]

But they're like, no. Like, that's, that's an irrational thought. Everybody's been there. A lot of people are there right now, and yet they just don't talk about it.

[B]

That's why if you look at my LinkedIn, there there's not. I don't post a whole lot and because I don't want to be the one that. I have that same feeling, especially with us going through the year we've been through. I don't want to just be posting sunshine and rainbows all the time. So I know these other people posting the same thing, and I'm like, they've got to be going through something also. They've got to be. It can't all be just this beautiful. So whenever I do post something, it'll be just something real. It may be something family or something personal. Not a whole lot of posting. But that's what. If I'm being honest, that's what keeps me from posting a whole lot on LinkedIn. I was like, I don't want everybody just to think I'm falling into the trap of everybody else just posting. Just what good goes on. Yeah, well, it's probably not the right way to go about it, but it's not.

[A]

But I also really understand it too. Like, in your situation, you can't just get on LinkedIn and be like, yeah, this. This engineer sucks, dude. Yeah, like, this guy, like, real pos. You can't do that. Like, especially when you're in the middle of it. Right? Or, you know, a lot of people, like, when you're in a lawsuit, you can't just go talk about it, which is so lame. Is so stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid. And so I get it. Like, it is nature, the nature of business, but there's a lot of things that people can talk about and they don't. And it, again, is like, as a leader, it's disappointing. It's really disappointing. Disappointing because I'm like, you're better than that. You, you. You're doing everybody a huge disservice by not talking about this stuff. And so for me, it's like, I can at least talk about it. Maybe it's helpful for somebody. But I've even fallen victim to, like, man, I haven't really shared anything realistic over the past three months. I better actually talk about something with substance. And then AI on LinkedIn has made everything 10 times worse. It's like, oh, I had this experience.

[B]

They don't really talk that good.

[A]

No, but it's not even good, is the problem. Like, it's not good writing. It's. It's not. It's not intriguing. If there's emojis involved, it's junk. If there's neat bullet points, it's junk. Like, it's just all junk. It's just all nonsense. That means nothing. It didn't actually really come from them. It doesn't. It's not written in any kind of captivating voice tone. It's just. It's just it's just junk.

[B]

Yeah. Just. Yeah. Just there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

What are you looking forward to most in 2026?

[B]

What are we looking forward to most? We are going to looking forward most to not being on these jobs anymore.

[A]

That's very fair assessment.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's number one. But get past that. We're looking forward to growth, being able to see. I mean, we've been a year and a half worth of just fight. So now I'm able to spend more time investing in our guys, spending time with them, building the systems the company needed. We did the necessary things the last year, but now we're finally putting real stuff in place. So we got our. In our meeting, we. We agreed. All right, let's focus on these five areas. These five areas we got assigned to people that's championing them. And. And just everybody's putting a lot of effort to make sure we take it to the next level. And so our goal for this. This next year is not to be the best, not to grow, nothing like that. It's just become better than we were yesterday. We want to try to become the best, and so that's what we're looking forward to and seeing what that really looks like. Sure.

[A]

What were your biggest takeaways from the summit?

[B]

Like I said, Ryan was most helpful for me for the stage that I was in. In business here, just being able to. And I had heard his story on your podcast before, but hear him say it again and talk it again in person just helps you realize, hey, there is life on the other side of this thing, and we're past it now. We're a few months out from that job, so everything's been turning around, looking good. But we've had. Me and Dustin went. We took a lot of notes. Tim Grover was awesome. Me and, you know, talking early on here about mindset, and that's one thing I love preaching. Preaching to our guys about. And so just being able to hear him speak and bring that fire. Oh, he was. He was. Outside of Ryan speaking. That was. That was one of my favorite speakers. Just because how he challenged me.

[A]

Yeah, he's.

[B]

You can't help but love Jesse Cole also.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that goes on that. I mean, I didn't have to say that. I mean, it was a cool. Everybody has to enjoy Jesse Cole. Well, this atmosphere and the energy he brings, it's incredible.

[A]

It's the whole thing. It. I was thinking about it, just how different everybody was that spoke like, just. Nobody was the same. No at all this year. I mean, like, way different in all different ways, which was pretty cool. And I caught most everybody, but I wasn't able to sit and, like, actually listen most of them, which I'm bummed out about. Ryan's was one I missed quite a bit because I don't know where I was. I was doing something. But everybody, like, consistently, I've heard Ryan was among the best because it was the most relatable.

[B]

Yeah. It's like he speaks of on that valley that everybody's in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rarely anybody talks about.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. But that. That's why I. I give Ryan a lot of credit because he. I think he's a great example of the future and the contractors that will really get us to the next level. Because he's not only real saying, listen, we've been through some shit, man. Like, we nearly. It nearly took us out. And here's what that was like, just to make it relatable to you. Like, I've been there. I've been there. I know what it's like. It's not a good time. And then there's. But there's something on the other side. There's hope. Here's how we were able to get there. And now that we're operating at a much better level, here's how we're getting further, and here's the playbook. And that's, to me, is so cool. Like, here's what.

[B]

We're so transparent with it.

[A]

Yes. Like, I'm not. We don't have anything to hide. Like, what's interesting is when your people really are number one, when your people really are your competitive edge and your greatest asset, you can go talk about how you run your business. When that's not the case, though, and you've got to rely on your means and methods that you think they're top secret. They're not. Those are the guys not talking right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so now more and more. And I want to accelerate this, which is why we do stuff like this. The guys that are talking, those are the ones that. That. That are worth listening to, that are worth following because they're real, like. Like Orion. Like a Dan Garcia. Like a Herb sergeant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know these. You know these guys, you're sitting there like, yeah, I know these guys because they're out there talking about what the heck they've got going on, how they've done it, because they have the mentality that, like, we're all in this together. And that was cool. Coming off of this summit. I Heard this more than anything else was like, hey, everybody's just like, here to be helpful. And every, like, it has a different energy. Like, everybody. We're all in it together. And it's like, yes, we are all in it together. Like, going back to, you know, love thy neighbor. Are we loving our neighbors or are we just wanting to drown our neighbors every chance we get? And we're fooled into thinking like, I've got to go kill the next guy because there's only so much work. And I see him on every bid list.

[B]

Love your neighbor as long as he don't take any work from you. Yeah.

[A]

And he's taking my work, and he's bidding against me, so I've got to go kill him. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're missing the point here. That's what they want. That's what everybody else is preying on right now is all these contractors bidding against each other. Hyper competitive. You go get. Kick the shit out of each other, and then we'll were. Whatever business that's far more consolidated, we get the money that we need, and we can just. And more and more. And you guys can't do shit about it because you're so fixated on each other. This is great. Let's keep it this way.

[B]

And, yeah, we're focused on developing our guys to become the best, like I said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's what our focus is on, is how do I grow those guys. Because if I'm being honest, I hadn't done the best job this past year and a half of really focusing on our guys because I was so fixated on this one problem. And so now survival. That's what. That's what I'm most looking forward to is taking the reins and spending time with each and every one of our leaders first and then with anybody that we want to develop up into leader position and really working on, you know, not just work personally. What's your goals? What's some stuff you want to achieve? Let me help you achieve it. And so that's. That's one way we're being intentional to try to focus on our people. It's always a talk in our office. We're definitely always talking about what can we do to help our guys out there in the field. Sometimes I wonder, because I don't get to see them all the time right now. Do they know that? Are they aware of how much they mean to the office? I mean, the office is there to serve them, but we want to make sure that all of our guys in the field know that they're number one, sure that we're there to serve them. And so that's our goal for 26, is to help them know that, like, when, if they're talking to anybody, they can say without a shadow of a doubt that we're their biggest fan and growing them, helping them achieve their goals.

[A]

But. And I think that's why you all will be in a better and better place as time goes on. You're not sitting there.

[B]

I'm fired up to see it, man.

[A]

I need to find a better way to like, top secret way to build a parking lot. So I've got the edge on my competitors and we're gonna go do this parking lot a totally different way and be able to bid this work totally different, make all this money. It's like, no, no. If we go build our leadership, we'll be able to build a better parking lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not. You don't build a better parking lot first and then find some people. You've got to build your people that will then build the parking lot. Yeah, I'm, you know, building parking lots anymore. You're moving.

[B]

I mean, most every job we do's got a parking lot. So, you know, most.

[A]

Yeah, there we are. America. We love our cars. Europe. Europe doesn't get it, but yeah, it starts with people. And I, I've, I've without a doubt been there is. I've. When I was fundraising two years ago, you get in this trench and you're just, you're like. It's kind of like drowning. Like all that you can think about is your survival.

[B]

Tunnel vision.

[A]

Yes. Nothing else matters. Yeah. You are just trying to survive. And then you, you ignore people and the team and what you should be doing, and then you can go back to them. And I've done this. It's not very effective. Be like, listen, guys, like, here's what I'm doing for you, this and that. Like, you're doing it for them, but they don't care. Like, it's like your six year old, your six year old has no concept of like the mortgage. So you can sit your six year old down and be like, listen, this is why dad's gone. You know, I'm having to make some money because if I don't make money, the bank's gonna take the house, so on and so forth. And they don't care. They don't conceptualize that none of that matters to their life. All that they care about is, well, dad's been gone. Like, your absence is all that matters. And it's. I'm not like saying people are like six year olds, but they are kind of like, everybody is kind of like a child. Like, we all want to feel important. We all want to be cared for, we all want to be appreciated. We all want to grow. We all want to be poured into. And when that's not happening, it hurts. And that's the trap I've fallen into is. Is I'm over here in survival mode, but no one else cares, you know? And it's hard to reconcile that. And it's easy to let it get away from you.

[B]

Yeah. Real quick. Goes way faster than you ever saw it happening.

[A]

Well, and like, we were talking about dinner. From a cultural standpoint, it's like going to the gym. Like, you slack off during the holidays and you go eat pie every day. You know, you. Those pumpkin pies, man, they'll get you. And then January 1st rolls around, you're like, man, what happened? What happened? I worked out for 350 days last year, and then I took two weeks off. You lose it like that, and if you. If you take your eye off people, it goes quick.

[B]

Yeah. We were fortunate to have the crews we had that kept on fighting, you know, even in our absence. So.

[A]

Yes. Which is great.

[B]

It's awesome.

[A]

But that's not a long term strategy.

[B]

No, it's not. I was lucky, right? We say we'll chalk it up the look.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's exciting. I'm. I'm excited for you guys. I think, like, we're there too, in business. I can relate on some levels of just slogging it out, but, like, being excited about the future is pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a good feeling. Right? Well, I think that's it.

[B]

You think that's it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sounds good. I appreciate the time, dude.

[A]

J.