Judd Palmer w/ JP Excavating – DT 414

Summary

Dirt Talk Podcast: Judd Palmer w/ JP Excavating – DT 414

Date: February 5, 2026
Host: Aaron Witt
Guest: Judd Palmer, Founder of JP Excavating

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between host Aaron Witt and Judd Palmer, owner of JP Excavating, a leading civil contractor based in St. George, Utah. They explore Judd’s personal and entrepreneurial journey: from humble beginnings in Idaho, to launching a single-machine grading business, to building one of Southern Utah’s most respected, vertically integrated civil construction firms. Beyond project war stories, the discussion focuses intently on Judd’s business philosophy, leadership, people-focused values, and adapting to challenges like economic cycles and changes in workforce culture.

Tone: Down-to-earth, candid, direct, and highly practical, with memorable asides and lessons for any construction pro or aspiring entrepreneur.

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KEY THEMES & DISCUSSION POINTS

1. Judd Palmer’s Backstory and Initial Struggles

• Judd grew up in Idaho Falls, ID, and later moved to St. George, UT at 21 (01:20).
• Coming from a farming background, Judd details his family's bankruptcy and relocation, and how a severe accident led him to St. George to support them (07:31).
• Initially working in landscaping (which he hated), Judd’s transition to excavation was motivated by his love for equipment and his desire to try something new (09:03).

“We bought a 8,500-hour backhoe—I think it was like 10 grand, 14% interest, because I didn’t have a job. … That’s what we started with.”
— Judd Palmer (09:36)

2. Building JP Excavating from Scratch

• Started JP Excavating in 1993, buying a used backhoe with help (a loan from his wife’s grandfather at 14%!) (09:49).
• No business plan, no industry experience—learned by doing and reading books (13:09).
• Operated solo with no employees for four years, doing everything from bidding to billing to work in the field (13:23).
• Emphasizes slow growth, extreme financial conservatism, and learning through mistakes (14:13, 40:07).

“We gutted it out, gridded it out, and to just be able to do this doesn’t seem fair sometimes.”
— Judd Palmer (14:04)

3. Key Strategies: Loyalty, Adaptability, and Vertical Integration

• Loyalty to local suppliers and partners, especially Wheeler CAT, was key. Judd notes switching entirely from John Deere to CAT after support issues—and remaining “99% CAT” since 2000 thanks to dealer relationships (16:55).
• As opportunity arose, JP Excavating expanded carefully, learning new scopes as needed and staying within a tight radius of St. George (15:18, 30:38).
• The company is now vertically integrated: excavation, sitework, trucking, paving, concrete, and its own land development—helping with flexibility and control (“circle of life” business model) (94:54, 98:21).

4. Major Projects and the St. George Landscape

• Played a vital role in developing subdivisions, municipal work, and emergency riverbank stabilization after historic 2005 floods (18:36).
• “Emergency work is some of my favorite… all the rules that typically apply, don’t apply. And then it’s unlimited money essentially—and it’s just get it done as fast as possible.”
  — Aaron Witt (23:16)
• The St. George area presents unique earthmoving challenges: soil variety, groundwater in the desert, weather swings, and volatile market competition from out-of-town firms (43:04, 15:04).
• JP Excavating has touched almost every part of St. George within 45 miles (17:28).

5. Company Growth, Challenge, and the Great Recession

• Judd describes strategic preparation for the 2008 crash: obtaining DOT certifications in UT, AZ, NV, and rightsizing the fleet just before the market collapse (34:09–35:36).
• “We went from a golf course job, 270 lots, to I-15… and we lost about $500,000 just because we—I had no idea what we were doing.” (34:33)
• Maintained employee retention by drawing on personal savings during hard times—a major source of company loyalty and culture (37:26).

6. Innovation and Doing It “Different”

• Known for trying new methods, especially on challenging jobs (e.g., St. George Airport runway rebuild, Amazon sitework). Often intentionally ignores conventional wisdom; prefers to learn “by screwing up every single day and try not to mess up again” (69:54).
• Extensive discussion of the St. George Airport rebuild—a massive clay removal and moisture conditioning effort, featuring Judd’s creative use of K-Tec scrapers with rock trucks (51:54–54:22).
• Commitment to keeping a five-day workweek, rarely working Saturdays or Sundays, to protect his team (56:36).

“Our methods of doing it were completely unconventional. No one had ever even seen it in St. George. Everyone till the day we were done thought we would fail miserably.”
— Judd Palmer (51:17)

7. Industry Trends and Market Insights

• Discusses the unique economic ecosystem of Utah—entrenched Salt Lake giants trying (usually failing) to compete with his local network (26:03).
• Observes the fundamental inefficiencies of construction: despite new tech, real productivity hasn’t increased in decades due to increased bureaucratic tasks and consulting layers (85:13).
• Engineering quality is declining; contractors have increasing responsibility but less leverage (Chapter at 85:40–88:56)

8. Values, Leadership, and People Development

• Values: Schedule reliability, quality, family-company environment, direct communication, intense employee pride and loyalty (31:48, 33:08, 112:13).
• Nearly all operators and crew have only ever worked at JP Excavating—most started young and learned by doing (33:08).
• Known for fostering a unique company culture with high standards—machines and trucks are pristine, every operator “owns” theirs (111:54), lots of branded gear and morale support (84:46, 79:17).
• Believes heavily in leadership by example; still visits jobs, sometimes operates, and never asks anything he wouldn’t do (89:42, 93:09).

“If you are not paying attention enough to hit the back of that thing or hit something, then you’re probably not someone we need on our project.”
— Judd Palmer (111:54)

9. Embracing Change: Workforce and Training

• Candid about challenges with new generations, evolving his approach to interviewing and onboarding (101:50).
• Implemented structured, multi-week onboarding—including simulated training and “boot camp” for all hires (including operators) to ensure fundamentals (102:42–109:43).
• “You have to explain why all the time. … They’re more than willing to do it, but you have to be way more… just ‘go do that’ doesn’t work anymore. You gotta explain the outcome, where they’re going to go.” (103:16)
• Focus on building better people—company-sponsored marriage/family counseling, leadership training for all, policy of growing from within (103:16, 104:19).

10. Company Image, Branding, and Standing Out

• JP Excavating is locally famous for “the gray mafia”—every machine has a unique dark gray and red color scheme, tinted windows, black wheels, light bars, and minimal dealer branding (77:03–79:18).
• Judd believes a company should never look like a commodity; looking good and being different are essential to morale, culture, and recruiting (77:27, 83:21–84:00).

“I want my guys to feel like badasses when they leave their house because they’re going to get annihilated all day.”
— Judd Palmer (81:38)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Building Without a Plan:
  “There was no intent. I had no thoughts of anything. There was no intent of starting this business …And even to this day I don’t even know truly where we’re always going.” (29:55)

• On culture, pride, and standing out:
  “If we painted it and we didn’t perform, we’d look really silly. … But we don’t, we perform. So it’s all right.” (83:52)

• On leadership:
  “How can I ask them to do anything if I’m not willing to do it?” (89:48)

• On new generations and hiring:
  “You have to explain why all the time. … Once I shifted my mindset, that dramatically changes everything.” (103:16)

• On risk and liability:
  “My opinion has always been, I got all the risk anyway. I’m screwed anyway. I need to go all in and protect what I can.” (74:48)

• On business focus:
  “We want to just keep our same values going all the time... If we start doing [more], then our quality and what the core of what we truly are will start just diminishing.” (30:53)

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NOTABLE TIMESTAMPS

• [01:11] Judd’s origins and move to St. George
• [09:36] Buying the backhoe and starting the business
• [13:23] Four years solo—no employees
• [15:18] Expansion and taking on new types of work
• [18:36] 2005 flood emergency work
• [34:33] The Great Recession and business adaptation
• [51:17] The airport runway job—innovative approaches, massive challenges
• [56:36] Commitment to five-day workweeks
• [85:13] Construction productivity and engineering inefficiencies
• [103:16] Shift in mindset regarding today’s workforce

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ADDITIONAL HIGHLIGHTS

Colorful Anecdotes

• Judd married his wife after just five weeks; she’s been a major part of JP’s financial stability and growth (09:01, 39:22)
• JP Excavating’s training boot camp and onboarding program, along with leadership workshops and even offering marriage/family counseling for employees (104:19).
• Use of unique onboarding: every new hire (labors or 30-year operators) starts in the trench; must pass basic skills and simulator training before progressing (102:42–109:43).
• Company vehicles, including all superintendent F350s, are “like showroom trucks” (81:36), and every operator has their name on their truck/equipment (113:51).

Advice to Aspiring Entrepreneurs and Contractors

• Start with one machine and learn everything yourself (12:01).
• Protect your company’s core—don’t chase every opportunity (25:54–26:03).
• Be proactive with risk and vertical integration (74:48, 98:21).
• Focus on people, culture, and leadership by example (89:09, 91:59).

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FINAL THOUGHTS

This candid conversation delivers both inspiration and pragmatic guidance for anyone in the construction world. Judd Palmer’s story shows what’s possible through grit, humility, an obsession with doing things differently, and a readiness to put values and people at the center of a successful business. JP Excavating isn’t just a civil contractor—it’s a lesson in focused growth, community loyalty, and building culture from the ground up.

Find JP Excavating:
Website: jpexcavating.com
Instagram: @jpx1993

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is with Jud Palmer of JP Excavating. JP Excavating is a civil construction company that does just about everything from mass excavation to paving around the St. George, Utah area. Judd is no stranger to trying new ways of doing things, most recently embarking on a new fleet, painting scheme and a new training effort. I have known Jud for a few years now. I've always admired the company that he has built. His reputation is unbelievable in Utah. He is very well respected and I could not have enjoyed this conversation more. I didn't really know his. His backstory. I've spent time with him, but didn't totally know how he has built what he has and what he believes in, etc, but this conversation revealed a lot of it. So I was really happy he came out to have a few hours on the podcast. And I hope you enjoy this episode with Judd Palmer of Judge JP Excavating. When are you from? Where are you from?

[B]

I'm from Idaho. Well, I was born in Salt Lake City and I've been in Idaho Falls, Idaho since I was 4.

[A]

And then when did you end up in St. George?

[B]

In St. George, when I turned 21. Like the months before I turned 21 in St. George.

[A]

But it's a. I mean, totally different place.

[B]

Totally different. It's a little bit of a bummer because my wife's from. She's born and raised there.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So she's watched it grow up. I've watched it grow up a lot. Just in the 35 years I've been there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you drive around, it's just. It's different.

[A]

Well, it was probably just this small Utah town and now it's a city.

[B]

Well, when I came from Idaho Falls, Idaho Falls was bigger. Everyone would equate Idaho to being smaller than Idaho, Utah.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I thought I was living in a small town.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's. Yeah, it's pretty big. It's. We're not used to waiting for four stop lights to get through traffic. It's just everything's got different.

[A]

Well, in traffic in general.

[B]

And all the fields are gone now. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

To officially get into it, I guess. When, what. What year did you start?

[B]

We started in 1993.

[A]

I was gonna say, I thought 90s.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What were you doing before you started?

[B]

I was landscaping.

[A]

Okay. And were you one of the guys that thought maybe I should move dirt?

[B]

Well, how it all really happened, I was in Idaho Falls when my family. My family. My dad was in a potato processing business and he ended up having some bad business partners. So so he had to do bankruptcy and he was gonna move. So me and my brothers pulled together some money for a Christmas vacation. Cause we felt something was wrong. Cause we grew up dirt poor. And it was just what we thought. We just pulled our money together and sent them on a Christmas vacation to St. George. Because my mom knew somebody in St. George.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So then they come back and after that trip, filed bankruptcy in February and moved to St. George with my family. With a truck, a horse trailer, and a car, really. And I'm the oldest of kids, so. And I had my own life there. I felt like I'm. Like, I'm not going anywhere. And I just had. Just not quite graduated high school yet. So I'm like 17 or 18, something like that. And then. So I stayed. So I was working as a farmer. That's all I'd done my whole life as a farmer. And I'd work. Then I had a job at the John Deere dealership that also owned a farm. So I do farming when it was farm time. John Deere. Do the ship when it was John Deere time. And then I was racing motocross. So I would come to St. George, then go into California and then do whatever and go back. Because they didn't care if I was gone during the winter. Sure.

[A]

Okay. So you would just bum around kind of. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I was pretty. I was working a lot. But then when they didn't need me, I go do that. And then I just. So it was a pretty good situation for me because I was single and just doing my thing.

[A]

Is it in. In Idaho, it's all potatoes for the most part.

[B]

Potatoes and wheat and some alfalfa.

[A]

Why? Why. Why is Idaho the place for potatoes?

[B]

Because it's cool in the night, it's warm in a day and cool tonight. So I give them a good growth spurt in the day, and then they can cool off and relax at night.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they all grow underground.

[B]

Yeah, they're all underground.

[A]

But the plants above ground.

[B]

Plants above ground, yeah. And you get into August, September, right in there. And they go in and kill the plant on top. Either roll it with tires or spray it with Herbert pesticide to kill the vines.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then it sits for about two or three weeks, and then you start going.

[A]

And then the harvesting. It's like something you drag through the ground.

[B]

And it's the potato harvester. So it's got a digger that goes in there? Yeah. Goes in about a foot, foot and a half. And that starts with elevating chains. And it starts going. The key is to let it come up to where the dirt's riding on the potatoes, Right to where it falls to the next chain and not carry the dirt over. But you can't, you have to have enough dirt so it doesn't bruise the potatoes.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And then it keeps going up into the truck. And then the truck will usually have a tilt down side and the boom sits in there. And you, you build the pile within about six inches of it. Because if you get too high, then it'll bruise them. So like if you see a potato with a black spot in it, that's because it's got dropped.

[A]

Oh, that's the bruise, the black spot.

[B]

Yeah. So it's going. And we would go. You start in the morning and go. We would go till 2 or 3 at night until it freezes. And half the time we would just sleep in the tractor.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because we're out in nowhere land. So it's a city because you've got these trucks and machines going everywhere. Second it freezes, pitch black, you can see nothing anywhere. And I loved it. You know, at 16, I was running that potato harvester and that was the king job. That'd be like the blade job, you know. And I was, I love doing it. And so, yeah, that's what I did.

[A]

So why didn't you end up a potato farmer then?

[B]

Well, because when my parents moved to St. George, they were, they. It took them about three years to get rebounding again. You know, they lived in a two bedroom apartment with seven people that they traded the lands, the lawn mowing for because they had no money. They left with nothing. We grew up with nothing. And they left with even less than nothing. So they traded for that. Then he started. My mom met the number one homebuilder at the time in St. George just at a gas station. And somehow they just liked her. And she, they ended up doing their landscaping and these, these guys were, they were building I don't know how many, couple hundred a year. But back then this was back in, you know, the early 90s or late 80s. So they were doing that and then they finally started pulling out of it. My parents did and they bought, they financed two four wheelers from Jorgensen's in Utah and then went to Fillmore to ride. And my dad's always. He's kind of dumb luck and his own luck. So he's just pretty haphazard. He always has been. He's created a lot of problems in our life. But 20 minutes into his ride, he Rolls down a cliff on the four wheeler. And I'm in Idaho at this point. This is a Friday night. They call and tell me he was down in there. It took him about nine hours in the night to get him out of this creek because he. He broke his femur, shattered his face, cracked his skull. And he was in ICU for seven days.

[A]

Holy smokes.

[B]

So I met him there that Saturday morning at the LDS hospital in Salt Lake. And we go there and I could just see he's screwed. And I don't know. I just decided I need to make a decision to save my. To help my family. And I was. At that point in time, I was the grain combine mechanic. They were sending me like I was. My. My service truck was loaded to go to Montana. Cause when the grain combine, you know those custom grain combine cutters, they come through from South Dakota and just work their way to Canada. When they would head into Idaho and Montana, sometimes they would put me on them to just chase them more of like a parts changer, Just take care of their needs. And that's where I was loaded for Monday morning. And this happened Saturday. Me and my mom went back to Idaho. Saturday night. I packed up my house a little. I had just a little tiny apartment. So I left with everything I had and went to St. George and was landscaping Monday morning.

[A]

That is crazy.

[B]

And I hated every minute of it.

[A]

Landscaping.

[B]

Hated it. I just hated it. And I hated being there. I was not staying there because I was forced to be there. And then, then I've been there about a probably two years. And then that's when I met my wife.

[A]

Okay. That's how. That's how it always goes. Yeah. Once you meet a woman here, that's where you're staying.

[B]

She's a lifer from there. So. Yeah, there you go. We met, married in five weeks. And will this be our 33rd anniversary this year? Little Shop of the west in Vegas.

[A]

Really? In Vegas.

[B]

In Vegas.

[A]

Right down the road, huh?

[B]

I had to pay 10 bucks extra for the video. So, yeah, that's how it started. And then while I was doing landscaping, you know, we're working around all these developments and I've just always had a passion for equipment. So I just was watching it and just like, well, okay, I think we could. I want to do this. Try this. I've never even done anything like that as a farmer. Sure. So we bought a. How we started it, we bought a 8,500 hour backhoe. I think it was like 10 grand for 14 interest because I didn't have a job.

[A]

What brand was it?

[B]

It was John Deere.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I was John Deere.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Heavy duty John Deere guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My whole life. That's all I was. And her. My wife's grandpa actually gave us a loan. But he's not going to do it for free. It was 14% interest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we had that thing. And that's what. We started with two wheel drive and just went for about three years with that.

[A]

With just tobacco.

[B]

Just a backhoe doing grading work. Yeah. Because I was watching. And then I had. With my. My friends I met the. When I moved to St. George. You know, I was the motocross guy. So I. It was pretty easy to make friends. There's a track there. And I ended up becoming best friends with the number one home guy there in St. George, Troy and Sedan's homes. So as we kind of. He got into his dad's business and I kind of started doing ours. So we would. He had us doing like final grading and stuff around their houses.

[A]

Did you ever get hurt doing motocross? Like wouldn't it.

[B]

Yeah, I did. Not as bad as I should have. I was really good. I'm really good at screwing up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I'd mess up all the time. But I didn't get really bad hurt.

[A]

Okay. Because I was gonna say that's a significant liability when you're working for a living.

[B]

Well, that's what. Finally I stopped because we'd been in business, I think two years and I dislocated my shoulder. So I'm trying to run tobacco and do our work. And that was just not a very great situation. Sure. So I decided I better quit doing that.

[A]

Fair enough. It's backhoes. It was the first piece of equipment I started on. It was a John Deere backhoe, actually.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Ran and out west. They're everywhere. Parts of the states. You won't ever see them though. But somebody good on a backhoe can do just about everything. Because it can technically do everything. You just need to know how to use it. But watching a guy that knows how to use a backhoe is a ton of fun. That and a skip loader.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Somebody that can really make great with a skip loader. I could watch that all day as well.

[B]

It's interesting because I can't force tobacco down our guys's.

[A]

No, no. Now they're. Yeah. Yeah. They're not very common.

[B]

Dumbest thing ever. But like if I had to start over in business and I had one tool, it would be a Backup, really? Because you can do everything, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. Whatever you want to do.

[B]

You move the dirt, you can dig the dirt.

[A]

So at that point, was it still the family company? Was that like an extension of the family landscaping company or had you started a separate company?

[B]

No, I just finally I bought. We bought the backhoe and I was just doing that on nights and weekends.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. And I did it for probably three months and then I finally just quit my. My parents landscaping company and then I was doing the backhoe. But it wasn't, you know, it took a lot to get it going. So I was framing or concrete or whatever I had to do to make it work really. And it was probably a year ish before I was just full time excavation.

[A]

Was it a problem, you leaving the family business?

[B]

Well, not really. Yeah, I mean, yeah, they would have liked me to stay, but I wasn't supposed to be there anyway.

[A]

Yeah, it was temporary to begin with.

[B]

Yeah. So they, they didn't really know and. But it's just a tiny. It was just my parents, you know, me and my parents, my brothers, as they grew up would come into it a little bit, but it was nothing substantial.

[A]

There's so many people that ask me how. I don't know why they asked me. They asked me how to start an earth moving company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've only heard it done one way and it's that way. I bought a machine and I started doing it. They're like, they asked me, how do you get a job? I'm like, put some numbers on it and hope you make money.

[B]

I mean, I bought a book back then. I remember that book. I can't remember what it was excavation grade to teach me how to read the stakes on the plants.

[A]

Oh, there you go.

[B]

I had no idea what it even was. Like two years ago I was a potato farmer and now I'm this. So I had no idea what I was doing.

[A]

That's something else. Okay.

[B]

We didn't have an employee for four. Four years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I was doing the bids and the billing in the mornings and night, you know, when I got home. And then, because I'm very, very conservative and just, you know, I've never been in business nor do I know how to run a business or anything about it. So we just slowly built upon that.

[A]

Okay. So it was just. Well, but that. I guess that's the, the nice thing when it is just you. Because now you've probably seen it. The past, like especially five years have been really good and there's been a lot of young companies that have grown like crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But as you know, the bigger the monster becomes, the more it eats.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you better hope it's still there. Whereas when it's just you, like, it's not. It's really not that risky.

[B]

Sometimes I get really frustrated watching what's happening because, like, we've. We gutted it out, gridded it out, and to just be able to do this just doesn't seem fair sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, I feel like if YouTube would have been invented when we started, I probably could have progressed our business, like, 15 years.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And maybe I could have had some nuts to do a little bit more faster. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. So you. You're doing small grading. You hire somebody. At what point did you know you had to hire somebody?

[B]

About four years.

[A]

But what, like, what was it? Oh, just because I just come about.

[B]

Yeah. I kept getting more, you know, more work, and then I'm through the motocross. I think motocross kind of defined me a lot as very competitive, so I just kept wanting to be better and do different, and I'm always in for a challenge. You know, I like harder jobs and more challenging jobs to a point.

[A]

I have noticed that about you guys. Yeah. Yeah. You do. You. You like the stuff no one else wants.

[B]

We do. We do. Well, I do a lot of stuff right now just to. Because I adamantly don't want to leave 23 miles from my house. So it forces us to do everything because we're big enough. There's not enough work to do one single thing usually.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I feel like it worked out well because we, you know, we grew from nothing. And as we grew, we went through all the. The residential, I'd say, problem fixing, say, with the ends homes again, since Holmes is responsible for a lot of things as we were doing their final grading, and he's the one that actually talked me into going into the development work.

[A]

I see.

[B]

I'm like, well, I have no idea how to do it. I don't have the right equipment. I don't know what I'm doing. And he's like, he just believed in us. So we. We literally went from two Backos, a Skidster and a Traco to Dozer grader, everything in one, like, two days.

[A]

How did you finance that?

[B]

Through Wheeler? Helped us through Caterpillar. Yeah.

[A]

I don't think cat and. And the cat dealers and cat finance get enough credit for how many businesses they've helped start and sustain.

[B]

Yes, I would agree with that.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

I mean, they're. Even to this day, they're. They're a very huge part of our success.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Caterpillar and Wheeler for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they've always. But I'm very loyal. You know, once it went to. We were 93 and we went to 2000. I was. When I actually. What's kind of funny about Caterpillar, when I first went to Caterpillar to buy my first tobacco, they laughed me out of the store. They said I don't have enough money. So. And I bought a John Deere. So I was 100 John Deere to 2000. And then we had multiple problems with our John Deere. Not the John. I believe John. I believe all the equipment's good. It's just. Who's all good supporting us. Right. And they just didn't support us. So we literally switched in six months from everything John Deere to everything cat.

[A]

And you've been almost everything cat since.

[B]

Yep. We occasionally. If the dealer doesn't have something that we need right then. But like we've literally been mostly cat. 99% since 2000.

[A]

The. I mean, Wheeler is one of the strongest dealers in the country too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Their. Their market share is incredible in Utah.

[B]

I just. I mean, I only know it in St. George.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in St. George, it's huge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's the main deal.

[A]

Is there a part of St. George you haven't touched at this point?

[B]

Not really. Not really. We've been. When we drive around, it's pretty amazing to see what we've touched all over the whole. From basically Enterprise to Cedar, all the way around about a 45 mile radius. We've been.

[A]

So you get into development work and that is developing like doing all the utilities and site work for subdivisions.

[B]

Yep. To produce residential lots. Yeah.

[A]

So you're. You're. You're grading for the roads. You're putting in water, wastewater, storm retaining walls. Retaining walls.

[B]

We were just turnkey. Everything you would do. They drive up when we're done and they have their lots are ready to start building houses.

[A]

Okay. And you would build for a developer or home builder.

[B]

We'd build for, you know, we. We were bidding to just whoever needed development work. Sure. But a lot of it was one contractor for a long time. So about 2005 is when. When we. We switched in about 2003 into the larger stuff. And then in 2005 is when the floods hit of St. George. The floods that were taking houses down the river.

[A]

Really.

[B]

So that would be our first. What you would Call bonded job in 2005.

[A]

What's the river? Is it Virgin River?

[B]

The Virgin River. The Santa Clara?

[A]

Because there's not usually, there's not a whole lot going on.

[B]

Sometimes you can jump across the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With your feet. Yeah. And sometimes it's bank to bank and taking houses down.

[A]

It is incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, we went two years ago now out to maybe 14 months ago to North Carolina after the floods out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're, when you're looking at the creek, you're in these valleys and it's all wooded valleys. And you're looking at the creek and it's, it's like a trickle. You're like, so that is what flooded? And they're like, yeah, it was up to here. And you're like, what? How? Because it's like a hundred times the volume. It's so much more water. And it happens once, sometimes every hundred years, sometimes every 500 years.

[B]

I think we've had three, 50 or 100 year floods since 2005.

[A]

Well, their math is wrong.

[B]

They keep coming. And it's amazing in St. George, like the, the, the Virgin river, you could be 100 degrees outside, completely clear sky, sunny. And you're flooding because it's coming from. Yeah. 40 miles away that you don't even know there's a storm going on.

[A]

Well, and it's like a reddish orange.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To the water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not clear water. It's super, super red.

[B]

It's muddy looking and it has a lot of alkali salts in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not great water either.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Well, that. Like I told you, I was at a salt mine a few hours north and they said, but they said the whole area under, oh, under Utah is all salt.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[A]

The top question I'm asked is what does Bill Witt do? Our purpose is to build the dirt world's next generation. The dirt world is the companies and people building the critical infrastructure and supporting those who build our critical infrastructure that we need to live the lives that we do. Our business is much bigger than me. I run around the world building our brand. But the business itself does two things. One, we help develop the next generation through our product called billwhit Improve. It's a daily training and development platform at about 300 civil construction companies are using to not just make their people better workers, but better people. And of course, we have the 2026 ARIAT Dirt World Summit. The best opportunity to develop yourself and your teams as leaders. So check us out. Billwhit.com. Book a meeting with us and we'll talk to you soon. So you what, why go from home building to then the commercial world, Just this progression.

[B]

Just wanted to keep growing. And then. Yeah. When those floods came, it was a pretty, it was a weird opportunity. We bid the first one and got it. No one had done the flood job there yet because it was an emergency thing. It happened in about two weeks.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

Just to rip, wrap, rip, wrap the rivers. But these were crazy contracts. We do two or three million dollars worth of work in 60 with 30 to 40 thousand dollar a day penalties if we don't make it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because it was stuff with the nrcs and the feds and accounting thing. But the big thing, the big push of it was because they were afraid of more flooding coming. And you know, once we started in 2005, this area that we started in to get the lava, they did a, they did an emergency approval to let you start getting the lava out of this lava field. Which is now Black Desert golf course in St. George. Yeah. The big new one that they. That's kind of been in the PGA that you.

[A]

You had. You were working out there.

[B]

Yeah, we built the, we did the earthwork on the golf course. Yeah. And we've been in charge of that whole area pretty much since 2005. Some contractors come in and out, but we pretty much maintain control until the golf course. And now it's no longer.

[A]

It's no longer.

[B]

Well, because the golf course.

[A]

Oh, because. Yeah, yeah. Because we've been making products pretty inexpensive over there now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think over three. Since 2005. Throughout time there, we'd pulled about three. There'd been about 3 million ton pulled out of that area before the golf course.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

To armor the rivers and everything around there.

[A]

But now. Yeah. It's pretty high dollar up there now, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it's very high dollar.

[A]

Like, like really fancy.

[B]

And all of a sudden it's. Everything's protected. It used to be the wild west and now we can't walk off the. The course.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fifteen years ago, you're driving bulldozers wherever you wanted.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You can do whatever you wanted.

[A]

The emergency, Emergency work is some of my favorite because it's like all the rules that typically apply.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't apply.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's unlimited money essentially. And it's just get it done as fast as possible. Which is. It presents a whole different bunch of challenges. But it's a lot of fun to Watch.

[B]

It was great. I mean, once again, everything we've done, we had no idea what we're doing. So we just throw our hands in here and go and see what we can do. So the first one we beat by about a week on the time. So our company at that point in time was maybe 15 guys, maybe 20 of the tops. So then we bid the other one and got the next one. So we finished early. So we. To reward the guys because we were working pretty hard days, you know, Saturdays and pretty hard. We took the whole company on a cruise and then I had another company move our equipment over the weekend. So when we came back Monday, we immediately started the next one.

[A]

Really.

[B]

And that was our first bondage of. We didn't know what bonding even was. We did it on a line of credit.

[A]

I was going to say. Yeah, how'd you get the bond?

[B]

We didn't. We didn't even know what it was. We did a line of credit. Luckily we pulled that off. And with the nrcs, they let. They were allowing that at the time.

[A]

I was gonna say now, that wouldn't.

[B]

No, that wouldn't work. I don't know where it works now. I haven't heard of it for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So yeah, we did that and then. And we just kept getting one after the other really.

[A]

Were you going up against bigger contractors once you started to do this work?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was some, some substantial ones in our town. You know that they were branches of the up north companies that were down here. And no one ever thought of us of a. They never even considered us because we're. We were nothing at that time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then we were starting to get a few at a time and just kept going.

[A]

Yeah. Utah, it's a really interesting market. It's. Utah is like its own world as well. Like I, I don't. I think it's totally different than Arizona, totally different than Nevada. Like even Vegas is a very different market.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Seems like Colorado, Denver, like not even out west is all that similar, but Utah, like you've got these mega companies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Up in Salt Lake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in the Valley that own almost everything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They do the ag, they do the construction, they do everything right. And I know they come down to your neck of the woods, but they kind of. It's kind of transient in a way.

[B]

It seems they keep trying to come down. It's getting more and more for sure. You know, I've had to have some self discipline because I was bidding and going after everything to try and Keep people out. Then I, you know, about three years ago, I made a conscious decision to quit doing that and just go after the larger stuff that suited us better.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because that was going to happen no matter what. So I was trying to force the unsavory work to those guys and us pick the better work.

[A]

Uhhuh. Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, some. They don't really ever get a foothold. You know, we've kind of got a pretty good underground network all around town to where they have. They. Everyone. Them struggle. They think they're going to come down there and get it going. They kind of destroy our market for a couple years and they kind of leave.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because they can't hang in there. And I don't know why. This is the only area I know. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's all you've ever done, so.

[B]

But I protect it with our life. You know, I'll. I'll go after anybody if they come into our town.

[A]

It's. I. But I find that interesting about you because you've done it so, like, for so long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. That's been. Like, you're the guy in St. George.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, everybody knows that.

[B]

I don't know that.

[A]

You definitely are. Like, even. Even when I was originally talking to Wheeler and the Campbells, like, they called you to.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I might have been. I don't know if it was Jonathan. I might have been. Brian, like, called you and was like, yeah. What do you think about these guys? And fortunately, you put in a good word for. Worked out great.

[B]

He didn't tell me why.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He just asked me what.

[A]

Well, but he's. He's smart, which is not a surprise. But that. But that. That shows you. Like, I think that indicates how well respected you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're getting your opinion on that.

[B]

Oh, that was pretty. Yeah, that was pretty cool. You know how I found out about that is listening to your podcast with them.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

I had no idea that I'm like, I had to rewind it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I did not know that. Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

And that's been an interesting relationship. It's been an incredible relationship. Really. With Wheeler, because I was with their dads, Rob and Paul, as this went on. And then when they started taking over, well, then I got to know them better. Sure. Jonathan and Brian.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. It was pretty much seamless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they've been great because they were. They just were a new generation. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And they've been incredible to work with.

[A]

Well, they, I respect them because they, like, they're not there to prove themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they're, they're not there to, to be the guy or the guys, quote, unquote.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're there to just carry the business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like on the trajectory it already was on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before they got in charge. Which it takes. That takes a lot of self discipline too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially as a man. Like, you want to be the guy. There's like that urge within you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And they've been good with me. Just. I don't know, they. They've. I don't know what the word is. Maybe they've trusted me, like, because I've done some pretty crazy stuff with them behind me that I don't know that I would totally be comfortable doing without their support.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, and just because I think just because of our long standing history, they, they've believed in me enough. But it's. I don't know, it seems a little scary sometimes to put that much weight behind someone.

[A]

Well, but that, you know, I've been thinking about that recently. I'll put the weight, all the weight on myself sometimes. But then I'll have to remember, like, wait a minute, I have these other great people or great businesses here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I need to lean on and just wholly trust. Which means taking some of that weight off me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just fully acknowledging, like, they've got it. I don't, I don't need to hold this. They've got it squared away. Which is, I think, where like the real cool stuff happens.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I would say that they probably have more confidence in me because of their dads, you know, as well. Because we started at zero with their dads.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then so they just were. They just have always been. They've just always been there for me, which is amazing. To have that kind of support.

[A]

Was. Was the intent always to remain within St. George?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you just wanted to be there?

[B]

Well, there was no intent. I had no thoughts of anything. There was no intents of starting this business. There was no intensive doing anything. And then even to this day, I don't even know truly where we're always going. I just still been passionate about staying in St. George. You know, the furthest we're been looking at is maybe Cedar, because we like to go into Brianhead. But then every time we do, we're like, why don't we just stay where we're at? There's no point in Doing any more than we do, because I stay. So I think we just run so tight. I just felt like we're at a spot to where if we start doing that, then our quality and what the core of what we truly are will start just diminishing.

[A]

But that. A lot of contractors do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They go after more and more work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which then draws them away from the core area that they began serving into other markets. Maybe up in Salt Lake City.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or over in, like, Denver. You know, you go do a job, especially nowadays, like a commercial customer here will then be like, hey, can you go to San Diego with us? Yeah, I've never been to San Diego. Now all of a sudden, you're in San Diego, and then now you're in. Now they want you in North Carolina. Like, I've seen that a lot, like.

[B]

Over the past 10 years, Costco job was doing. They want us to go to Reno. I'm like, it would be hard pressed to go to Cedar for me. I'm not. Definitely not going to Reno. But, no, we really haven't, because I'm very conservative. We just never got over the skis at all. And just. I. We want to just keep our same values going all the time. And I just watch it all around me. I just see it just when that happens, it just. Not that they were control freaks, but it just becomes unmanageable. Not unmanageable, but just the quality. Everything about it is different.

[A]

What are. What are the values that you've tried to retain?

[B]

Just how we will keep a schedule. We keep our. You know, we have the core. We're. We have about 115 employees, but the core of about 35 have been with us for eight to 25 years. And we've done everything together. We've went through the recession, which was a big deal. And so. And I feel like how we started in residential, it makes us a more rounded contractor because there's not many contractors that can do the airport, the highway, and go dig a basement. Because, oddly enough, digging basements on a footing sometimes is harder. To get an employee to go do that is almost harder sometimes than doing the freeway.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

They're just a little weird. Footing that has to be within 3 inches of line or it doesn't. The footing doesn't fit. Sure. Yeah. So it just give us a whole different rounding of expertise that I don't think a lot of our competition has nor cares about. And our guys are just super proud of it because they've all. We only have about. I Think four operators that have ever worked anywhere else within the whole company. So most of our. All of our main guys have started when they were 18, 19, and every one of them started in a trench, and then we've brought them up from there. And that's kind of our hard rule right now. Even if you have experience, you usually start in a trench. So we can see what kind of experience you truly have.

[A]

And most everybody's probably local then.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I guess that's a huge advantage of staying home every night.

[B]

Yeah, huge advantage. Everyone's local. We have three guys, I think, that live in Cedar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, but everyone's local. Yeah. And we, you know, throughout time, we would go. When they're in 08, we would. The furthest we would go is maybe an hour and a half away to little towns, do things. We did a couple flood jobs an hour and a half away. If it was the right job, we would go. But after the recession, we kind of had to just go wherever we could go. But we've never went more than an hour and a half away.

[A]

So with the recession, home building essentially just disappeared.

[B]

We were 100% home building subdivision work. And while that was going on, we could have tripled our size in time. And I just didn't feel, you know, I've never had a business. I don't know what I'm doing, but it didn't. I'm like, this is too easy. It just felt like there's no way we could be doing this well this easy.

[A]

And that was like 2006, 2008, 2000.

[B]

So in 2006, when we're going as hard as we can possibly go, like no end in sight, I. I just felt uneasy about it. And we went and got all of our udot, our highway certifications for Arizona, Nevada and Utah. It took us about a year and a half. By the time we got the bonding and everything set up ready to go. And we really. Still not done very many bond jobs. Maybe five from to 2005.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or 2008. And so then when the. When the economy crashed in 2008, we literally went from a golf course job, 270 lots to i15. And it was gnarly. We'd never done a UDOT job ever. And we lost about $500,000 just because we. I had no idea what we were doing. I didn't go. I. There was some desperation in the bidding of it because there was no work. And we, you know, I'm an equipment guy, so I had a lot of cool Stuff that wasn't necessarily what I should have. If times are tough and you've got payments on them, it's not a good idea to have.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Luckily, we sat in our office and made some tough decisions really quick and we sent a bunch of stuff to the auction. And I'd say we saved ourselves within three to four weeks of having a really big problem because literally four weeks after we sent our. The unnecessary stuff, because we had some pretty big stuff, but there was no big work. So we take a big excavator and trade for three small ones and then we went right back into municipality and road work and stuff like that in the middle of small towns.

[A]

Well, and that's what people, especially people on the Internet, they. With. With big equipment. Everybody loves big equipment. I love big equipment. Everybody loves big club. But if you buy like a D11, like, there's only so much work you can do with the D11.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's way more expensive than a D10, which is way more expensive than a D8. It's just.

[B]

And then what do you do with it? You can finish your job a week faster, but then what do you do?

[A]

And then. Yeah. And then now mobilizations, you know, a lot more expensive. And it's like, it's not always about just the big, big, big, big, big stuff. Because now you have to, you know, like a. A scraper spreads a great example. Like there's a. I know contractors, they look at it, they look at their backlog as far as millions of yards of material.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they know on a monthly basis this many scrapers choose through this much dirt. And if you don't have that much dirt in front of it, machines are sitting and they're really expensive. The. At least the new ones are.

[B]

Yeah. Bad situation.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. And it's. It's a. It can be a big pickle real quick.

[B]

Right. Right now that still has scarred me, I think, to this day. You know, a lot of times I should have a D9, but I don't. I have a D8 and I'll take an extra week longer because then if I don't have anything, I'm good to go still.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't have to worry about it. So I'm a little bit guilty of that still. Of sometimes I probably making the wrong choice. I could go with a little bit bigger on some things, but I think we're doing just fine.

[A]

Well, yeah, you're doing just fine. And you can tell pretty quick. A contractor that's lived through the recession versus who hasn't? Because the ones that have. Have that scar tissue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I mean they'll talk about it like it was like the war.

[B]

Time of our lives.

[A]

Yeah. Because it was the worst time of your lives. Yeah. You never want to do it ever, ever again.

[B]

We took money out of our savings to pay our employees because we didn't want to lose our employees. They've given. We were a unit, we were a family, you know, so we were, we blew most of our savings just keeping their paychecks alive and keeping us going for that point in time. And we had all those certifications and we've never. So now for 20 since 08 we've had our UDAH or Nevada and Arizona highway. Never done a job really. But it's there in case we got it.

[A]

Well, and Arizona, Nevada is like right down the road from you.

[B]

Yeah. 30 minutes.

[A]

30 minutes. Yeah.

[B]

Well actually Arizona is like 10.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That little, especially that little corner that you go through.

[B]

Yeah. And hopefully we never do, but I'm prepared if we have to. So it's, it's been, we were just ready to go and I don't know what, why the foresight with that, you know, having an amazing woman behind me. So she's always been like just in it, whatever I'm doing and just kind of my sounding board. So it's sure just gave me the confidence to know, okay, we just, let's keep doing what we're doing and keep looking at what we're looking at. We don't get out of control.

[A]

Well, and women are oftentimes a lot more level headed than men or like I feel like men, we like to just kick doors in sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And women, the way I explain it's like, well, they're what's behind the door first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like let's have a conversation before we kick it in.

[B]

She's really good at listening to me complain all the time. And now she's actually an expert. Expert in our business just by listening to me complain all the time.

[A]

I bet.

[B]

So it's a great sounding board all the time of how we've worked together. It's been a great strength in our marriage, you know, because a lot of people say they can't work together and I don't know, this is what has made our marriage. Because we do that and our work and it's, we're just.

[A]

Everything runs together well because, and, and they've both been in parallel. Like you started around the same time, you were new in a marriage and Starting in business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At the exact same time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is pretty interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Her background was finance. Always. So that's been a huge piece for me that I've never had to worry about. You know, we. For a company of our size, you know, the bonding companies always hated it where we have three people and they want more of a staff. But she's always ran the, the money part and the bonding and the banking. And that's been a huge piece for me to not have to worry about.

[A]

Well, and I've been in your office, I think once and it's like there's not a whole lot going on.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which is a good thing.

[B]

Yeah. We're not working usually. Yeah.

[A]

You're getting stuff done. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's not much to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's also. Would you say like being financially conservative is partially because you grew up how you did with nothing?

[B]

Yes, for sure.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

From the outside looking in, it doesn't look like we're financially conservative.

[A]

It doesn't, no.

[B]

But we are. I still price out a jumpy jack.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To this day myself, I price out a jumpy jack to make sure I'm getting the best deal. And yes, for sure. How I grew up. I mean it was like you, we didn't have enough food. Half the time you eat, you eat all you got. There was no leftovers. No such thing as leftovers. Yeah. And that's just how we grew up. And I didn't know any better. You know, when, when I met my wife. I think I've been to a restaurant like five times in my life. I didn't even know what. Because we're completely opposite. She's. She's grew up that way and I did not. So that's a pretty crazy thing how we bonded so well together. Because we're black and white. Different. Sure.

[A]

Post recession, like 2011. Ish. Then stuff started to really, really go.

[B]

Yeah. We were 2011. I'd say we were in Brian Head. That was our last, our last out of town job because when we were forced to go out of town, so we went to Beaver and Brian Head and then we got our first large udot job which was Red Hills Parkway. And that was a 14 million dollar job. So that was our largest to date job. Like we, we'd had bonding up to 3 and 4 million. And then when that one came out, we had to get special permission and everything. And we got it. And then. But they were watching us. And then that's when we started transforming into the Larger. Larger projects like that.

[A]

How far off was second place on that one?

[B]

We got 10%. We got it by 10%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was all right. But I feel like all these larger companies in our town and we've. We're always about 10 lower but we should be sure, you know, we don't have that chain, that big old program to bring along with us and we never have. I've kept it that way on purpose so it's never bothered me to be even at 10. We've been more than profitable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we just don't have the fat that they've always had.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And so that one's in. But it was clear from 2008 to 2014 before we bought a big machine again.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We say big machine.

[B]

What was that like? We were in 320 size. So 45, 000 pound excavator. And then we got into 110, 000 pound because we had 200 like 349s. We had two of those when economy crash.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then that was not a good thing to have because there was not even work to do. Those we trade got rid of all those and then we finally got Those again in 2014.

[A]

When did St. George really start booming? About that time.

[B]

Yeah. I mean for me it's always kind of been booming because it's. There was nothing. You know. We've just always been a part of it. But yeah. 20, 15, 16, it's. It's going pretty good.

[A]

Yeah. One of the interesting things about St. George is the material that you guys deal with.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

So jacked up.

[B]

We've got everything.

[A]

You've got everything.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

You've got sand, you've got lava rock, lava fields. You've got like the shittiest clay in America that does whatever it wants to do.

[B]

Groundwater.

[A]

Groundwater.

[B]

Groundwater everywhere.

[A]

But you're in a desert.

[B]

Yeah. Everywhere there's groundwater. So we need the rock to stabilize groundwater.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it's always worked out well. It's.

[A]

And it's hot in the summer, it's cold in the winter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just a. It's a different world.

[B]

It's my only world. I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, it's. I mean we'll have 10 different types of material on the same job within a thousand feet.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

And you got to learn how to. I think we've been really well about learning how to manage those materials. You know, because I've been really kind of interesting. The main geotech we work with in Town. My very first compacted job that I had to get a geotech was with this guy. It was his first compacted job. He just started as a geotech. So we've been together for like 33 years. So throughout this our history, you know, we've learned a lot on back then there was no clay because there was good lots to develop.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Then by time 20, 15, 17 then we're starting to get into some clay areas because now we're getting built out and now we do a considerable amount of clay work on from commercial jobs to residential lots. So we've had jobs.

[A]

No, huge jobs now.

[B]

Huge jobs, yeah. And we've just developed. You know, I've put a lot of trust in him as the geotech and understanding. They went to Denver and came up with a lot of procedures. We did the airport that, that taught us a lot and like how to handle it and better. We're just follow like the bible and it's been, it's just what we do now.

[A]

How, what year was the airport?

[B]

2019 I was gonna say.

[A]

I think that's when I first saw you guys there. Maybe there were all these videos online of the airport. Oh, I don't know if it was you guys posting it or somebody. Maybe it was you guys.

[B]

I don't remember.

[A]

And so I started posting online in 2017. But even like before COVID there wasn't a whole lot going on from an earthmoving standpoint online, you kind of knew who everybody was.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so when someone was doing a big job, it's like you'd see it every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember watching that airport job all the time.

[B]

Yeah, it was a cool job. It was, it was a very interesting job because when first off when we went, I try to go to most of the pre bids just to be in the know. Not that I'm nesting when I went to that one with no intentions even looking up. But then when I watched all the big corporations with their 50th stupid question in under 45 minutes, they bring five guys in there and I'm like, I'm gonna kill you guys. This is my number one goal now to show you guys what's up. And we did. So we, we bid it. No one saw us coming. We were 10 low on that. That was a little, a little heart dropping. Just because a number one, you're supposed to have airport experience. I, I do. I mean I fly out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's my big experience I've had and that's it. But I've Got. I've had such a rapport with ourselves. City that they stood behind me all the way because they were. They got threatened lawsuits immediately.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that was probably some of the biggest contractors around on a job like that.

[B]

Yes. It was the. It was the aims of all the big ones.

[A]

Yeah. All the big boys.

[B]

Yeah. And because the city got burned on it, you know, it. It started in 2010 and it was a large company from Phoenix came and did the dirt work. We bid it, actually. And we were, I think second or third, but we. They were half of what we were. Whoa. And it was. It was actually the recession because it was the big company out of Phoenix. I'm gonna say their name.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But they. They had to have somewhere to go. So we were 24 million. They were 13.

[A]

Holy smokes.

[B]

And they roll in there and they were legit.

[A]

And it was a. A brand new airport.

[B]

A brand new airport.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And pretty far out of town. Like, it was a pretty undeveloped area at that point.

[B]

At that point it was out of town.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was actually kind of interesting because when I first moved here, that area was an old drag strip before. And that's with my motocross. We had an agreement with the city. We had a motocross track up there where this airport was.

[A]

I think I've. You don't have. You don't maintain it or have it anymore.

[B]

No, it was actually where the Runway was.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

It was a real track that the city on the property. But they let us do it, so we would run races out of there.

[A]

Oh, how cool is that?

[B]

Yeah, it was a pretty interesting. So. So that company came and did it, and then they actually hired us to come do a lot of little. Because this was a major company. They didn't. They didn't do anything little. So we would go help them with pipe works on that. And I'm riding around with the owner of the company one day. I'm like, man, you're obviously pretty cool, but I. I think I know how to read. I don't know how you figured this out. He's like, no, we figured a loophole in bid and we're just gonna leave about 70%. And that's what they did. They left in the night. So the city was kind of left in shambles. You know, big black eye to pick this up. So they picked it up and go. And. And the. The.

[A]

So they left the job. 70. Complete.

[B]

Yeah, 70 or 80. Something like that. Holy. And literally left. I mean, there was about 100 machines on site. And they were gone in three days. Just completely desolate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And at that point in time, you know, we. We hadn't really got a lot of experience into the clay yet, but we all felt it was wrong what was being done. But it met the FAA guidelines, which didn't make any sense to me because, you know, I know he had Denver regulations going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, the clay was there and all they did was like three or four feet of structural. And then went. And.

[A]

Well, and Denver, that was. I think they did 120 million yards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On Denver's airport. But it's mostly because of the clay.

[B]

Same type of scenario, from what I understand.

[A]

Yeah. You've just got to over excavate the. Out of everything and just layer it all back on. So it's giant. Yeah, Giant cuts.

[B]

So anyway, they left and then they got it done. So then fast forward 10 years. The Runway is moving. It's. It's lifted like upwards of 18 inches.

[A]

So to. Yeah. To put. To explain how did they move the dirt before? With scrapers.

[B]

Scrapers.

[A]

With scrapers.

[B]

So there's scrapers and then there was some rock areas where they'd have a crusher, and 90% of those were scrapers.

[A]

Okay. But. So it met FAA spec. But it was moving because they just. They moved the top and they graded it to whatever the Runway spec was.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But they didn't condition anything underneath.

[B]

Correct. In. That Runway produces about 250,000 gallons of water with a quarter inch of rain.

[A]

Yeah. So as the water hits the Runway, it sloughs off, goes right into the.

[B]

Ground, goes right to the side of the. And then it builds up to where then once the water hits it, it moves it. And nothing. They. After they'd measured it, it had moved upwards of 0 to 18 inches in.

[A]

Spots, which is a big problem for us.

[B]

A big problem. You just think the pilot was just a bad pilot, but it was really the Runway, as you're going, and we started digging on it. We're down eight feet and it was like fissures of water, almost like garden hoses just running out for probably three weeks.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

Because the water percolated and there was so much head pressure and it was everywhere because.

[A]

But. But all just trapped in there.

[B]

Just trapped.

[A]

Nowhere to go.

[B]

It finally hit resistance on the bottom of the clay, and then it just built up. Really? Yeah. And the reason I felt pretty confident in this one. I'd been doing it for a minute. Even though I hadn't done a Runway. I just knew how to do clay. And with my geotech guy I told you about this is agc. And Wayne Rogers there, he. We'd done this and I was kind of involved with the test pits for the fix for like five years prior to. To this becoming a real thing.

[A]

I see.

[B]

So we take a machine out, dig the test bits. So I kind of knew what was going on, just what it was. But it was really just my competitive nature of like, I'm tired of listening to these dumb people, dumb questions. We're gonna go for it. And so that's how it did.

[A]

How much. How much did the job was the job.

[B]

The job was 24 million.

[A]

So that was probably one of the bigger.

[B]

Largest one.

[A]

Yeah. You'd ever done.

[B]

Yeah, that was the largest one was. The other one was 14 million.

[A]

So. But 24 million and you did it. It was like 120 days. 120 days.

[B]

Yeah. We moved two and a half million yards in 43 days.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Especially with. I mean everyone thought we were. And we were. I don't. My big deal is I. I've never been taught anything and I certainly go against everything that everybody tells me at all times. So our methods of doing it were completely unconventional. No one had ever even seen it in St. George or Utah. Everyone till the day we were done, we were going to fail miserably and all about it because we went. I'm just. I. I really struggle with. Follow with what everybody's. If this is what we've done, that's what we do. And I never will do that. So that's when I researched out the K Tech solution between rock trucks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We brought those in and then we built the whole Runway with the farm tractor and a roam finish Scraper clear to PT100 grade.

[A]

Really?

[B]

So we're getting a test every eight inches. About every 22 and a half minutes with that farm tractor. Putting it in there. Yeah.

[A]

But you did a lot of it. Didn't you have a 390 out there?

[B]

We have a 395. A 395 and then a 32374s.

[A]

Two 374s too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was gonna say you had some big excavators out there.

[B]

Yeah. Because the disposal was at the end of the Runway. So our round trip was about eight miles. Wow. So the scraper work was working within the 2500 foot range. We had some couple disposal spikes there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But the. We put the on road trucks. We just use side dump trains and they were running the loop down there. The eight mile loop. And then we're using the excavators to load them and haul.

[A]

But what you essentially had to do was how much did you dig down? Like 20ft.

[B]

We took it down 20ft and then got to the bottom of it and had to get it surveyed passed off. And then we would build 5ft of clay back in the bottom. And it had to be moisture conditioned about 28%. And what that means is we would sit there and have. We'd sit there and mix it for about 48 hours with moisture. And that allows the water to absorb into the clay. This clay. Sometimes you grab it and it feels like a hard rock. And it's not just petrified clay.

[A]

It does. It does feel like. Because I've been out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At a site next to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is like a rock.

[B]

It. Yeah. A lot of people mistake it for rock.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it's not. And the second the water hits it, it expands. So the goal was put it in that expansive state for 48 hours to where then it's completely expanded. Then we put it in two lifts, two and a half foot at a time for five feet deep in the bottom of that processed clay. So we're using an LGP dozer. And the proper moisture condition is if I get it stuck about every 30 minutes, then we're right on. And then we take off a structural fill from the top. Okay. And I was very nervous about it being that way because we literally would get the dozer stuck. But they would allow us to put a two foot lift on the first lift. And I. We had a contingent item in there that they already signed a change over it because everyone was worried. We thought we were going to blow it up when we put the next lift of material on it. And they let us put a two foot lift instead of the eight inches on the first lift. And then we were running our scrapers across the. No problem. And we never used a bridge across.

[A]

Did the import material have to come from somewhere else?

[B]

It was on site.

[A]

It was on site.

[B]

Yeah. There's. Once again. And you go back to St. George dirt. We have 15 different types of material there within a four mile radius.

[A]

Crazy. But you had to get rid of a lot of the clay.

[B]

We got rid of 400, 600,000 yards of clay at the end of the Runway.

[A]

That is amazing. So you had to basically. What was. How long was the Runway? 10,000.

[B]

We were. Well, we only took a piece of that one. But it was a mile.

[A]

A mile.

[B]

Okay. A mile in the middle.

[A]

I guess it's a smaller part.

[B]

Yeah. The Runway is three miles long. Ish. Okay. We took a mile of it in the middle.

[A]

I see the middle, which is where the clay is.

[B]

That's where the clay was.

[A]

Okay. So you had to take a mile of it. 20ft deep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then replace it.

[B]

20Ft deep. 200ft wide.

[A]

Was there. Wasn't there like some kind of geotech top textile or something involved as well?

[B]

We did. So when we got to the top right with the. For the 209 layer, we would put a. Is basically a rubber liner. It's like a roofing liner. Okay. That would. And it was. We melted together just like if you're putting on a roof of a house. But it would go out 500ft each side of the. Each side of the Runway. And then we have drain lines every 500ft that would kick the water out to there. So this thing is built where no water can. Can get to it anywhere.

[A]

So. Yeah. So the goal. Yeah. So you. You moisture condition the clay, so then it'll stay at that expanded state.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then all the rest of the water hitting the Runway now.

[B]

Goes out.

[A]

Goes out.

[B]

Yeah. And it's out 500ft.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Both directions. That is. So it gets nowhere near it.

[A]

That's the kind of stuff people don't think about.

[B]

Yeah. And they did a special liner. This was crazy. They. They inspected out of France, so we had to get it out of France. So we had to start. We started the job in July. We started taking it in January. And we had it stacked up. They would only let it come in containers. You know, I think four rolls at a time. So we put a jersey barrier out there because we couldn't lay it on the ground. We had to take it, and we could only stack it three. Three layers high. Okay. So we had 3,000ft. So 6,000ft of Jersey barrier out there stacked with these layers all the way down the side of the Runway, waiting to be able to ago.

[A]

Wow. And it was days and nights.

[B]

We did days and nights. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I didn't. They. Everyone kind of freaked out, because I'm very adamant with our people. I think in our whole history, we might have worked 15 Saturdays combined. And I protect that with our life. So we did not work any weekends, and they were not stoked. They thought it should be seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And I fought that battle for about a week or about two weeks until they realized what we were doing. And then they just stayed out of my way.

[A]

After you showed them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The numbers you could put up.

[B]

Yeah. So we were doing it. No problem. We were exceeding everything we were doing.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And we would go. So we would stop Friday night at 5. That would be our last shift. And then we start Sunday night at 6.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, and I think contractors need to do more of that. Like contractors get pushed around way too much now by gcs, by lawyers, by owners.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody telling everybody, no, you're going to do it this way. And it's like a lot of it's not in the best interest of their people. And honestly a lot of the schedules are not at all safe. People won't talk about that. Running people ragged six days a week, ten hours a day.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's not sustainable.

[B]

No. So. And what do you build out of that when you're done, you ruin your people and then what do you do for the next to have a sustainable company? I just don't know. I've, I've never felt that. I never felt like that's any area I would go into.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know and I've, I've just protect our people with that or like a family and I don't, I don't want to work on the weekend and you know. And it's not safe. Like you say we're, we're wide open for six, you know, five days straight. Like we were moving on a minimum 30,000 a couple of times we had 70,000 in a 24 hour period. So it was like wide open for what we are. We're just small deals. But that seemed like a lot to us.

[A]

It's pretty crazy though. It's like, I mean that's a major project anywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Major pro. Like that stuff. Kiewit would be all, all over.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

And you're the local guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Quote unquote, kicking the. Out of everybody else.

[B]

I hired a guy to be. He was kind of the survey guy. And then it really became okay, you're the guy they talk to. They're not allowed to talk to me because I worked on the job every day myself. So I get them going out there, going. And then I had the big drag for the roads and then I have a big farm tractor. It's about 10 o'. Clock after I get him going. I had a, I had an excavator with GPS on it. I would get on it from about 10 to noon and then go and start digging and finding the clay to be ahead of the scrapers and our crew. Because the clay Everyone I don't know, people think it's in a layer. It's not in a layer. I've seen clay go 50ft in height and 50ft, I mean it's, it's Val hills up and down, up and down. So you don't ever actually know exactly what you got. Because I'm dealing off boreholes so I don't know where it totally is. So I would get out there in that time frame, run the excavator and I had it on gps so I'd find it market, give the data to my engineer guy and then I'd hop on my farm tractor and start grading the road. Because I can sit up high, see what's going on. And then I'm directing Tractwick and I'm going to road. Yeah. So. And then he would prepare my data. So then in the afternoon I go review my data. So I always had about five backup plans going the whole time. So the second they hit something that where I thought it was going to be there was like literally. Okay, move over here while I figure that out.

[A]

What happened to the rest of the company while you were tied up in that?

[B]

It worked out crazy perfectly because I have such a history of long standing customers. When we got it, I said okay, this is where we're at. We're gonna be gone. Because it was, it took our entire company by doing night shifts. At that point in time we were only I think 40, 45 guys.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So it took everything we had.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just went to all my main customer, I said we're gonna be gone from this amount of time and when we get back, if you can just wait for this amount of time, we will be ready on this exact day. And that's what I did. So when we got, I had, I like. Our main excavators are mixing the clay though. Literally that day at 10:45 in the morning, I had three transfers. I'm like, all right, you guys are gone. And by noon they were putting manholes in on the subdivisions. So it, we just worked it perfectly because my customers were so. They trust me, I guess I should say to where. Then they knew if I say I'm going to be there, I'm going to be there no matter what. So there was no risk to them. And it was. That's how we did it. That's the only job we did for 120 days.

[A]

That's amazing. Yeah, that's really cool. It's really cool. I mean that'll. That's definitely one of Those jobs that goes on the wall.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's been. It's helped us a lot, you know, get some recognition. You know, our big project that you've been out on now is a direct result of that. Because that property, you know, I've dealt with that property over time for about 15 years with multiple different groups. They come in and try and buy it, and then they figure out the clay and then everyone freaks out, doesn't dare do it. So the guys that came in now, they came in and we talked a few times. And they. They knew my background with this stuff. So over the course of a year, then they decided to buy the property. So then we developed the plan together. So then we've done the same type of thing out there for those Amazon buildings.

[A]

Yeah. And so now you're building around the airport. Similar type material, different warehouses.

[B]

We did industrial. We did five and a half million yards on that dirt job.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So we did that in a year of just normal. It wasn't like the 24 hours a day. It was just normal time. Yeah. But we had to grade the entire site because. Because the clay is so erratic. So that one, we're doing five feet in the bottom. Then we're doing a three to one mix to come up within five feet of the top. So the balancing act was pretty good. We hit it pretty good. I was. I was. I had one major screw up that I didn't anticipate. All of a sudden we're having too much clay and I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Because we were pretty. We were balancing pretty good. And I traced it back to. Because when we did the airport, we're just disposing of the clay, so we're not tracking what it's doing. But now we have to. We have to get rid of everything we have and what it was. We had 20% excess because of the swell of the clay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I didn't even think about until I started thinking about it. Like, why do I have all this dirt? Where am I gonna go with it? And luckily we had the next section. They had the right away to build that had to come up 50ft. So it worked out perfect. We put it in the right way and away we went. But I was like panicking a little bit, not knowing where that was going.

[A]

Because that's like hundreds of thousands of yards.

[B]

400.

[A]

400,000 that you weren't accounting for.

[B]

No. So it ended up being about 5,400,000 yards.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Wow. And now the whole site's good. Now we just keep on going on that site.

[A]

It was the first time I'd seen that. The mixing like that too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The ex. The excavator sitting there. And you had like the hose running down and then you had like this little channel built up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Down the cut. And it would kind of percolate in as they're sitting there.

[B]

We just have to have so much water. You know. And when we did the airport we. We didn't have that opportunity. So we had three water beetles just running in, coming in back and dumping up and just dumping the whole 8000 gallons. And you know I've listened to a lot of people just have their own opinion on my process of doing that. Well, I bought a rotomill to start with. We tried the rotoma for about 22 and a half minutes. I had a big disc. We tried it for about 13 minutes. We tried multiple things in one hour. And then we're to the excavators. That's the only way we could get the clay in there efficiently and fast.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

To just sit there and mix it. Process it. And so that's where we ended up. You know. When we started the airport we weren't planning on an additional 374. But then when we could see none of my ideas were working to mix the clay fast enough. That's where we came up with the other one. To mix clay.

[A]

So it's 1374 just to mix.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just to put water into the material.

[B]

Water. We had one 374 and two 349s makes them 100 of the time. And that's what we've had on these other projects too. Same thing 374 do now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's been great. The 374 is a pretty good machine because it's. It's big but it's still manageable.

[A]

Yeah. And the. The cost of ownership's not. Not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even close to what a 395 is.

[B]

No.

[A]

It gets a lot more.

[B]

I wanted a 395 but we took the Komatsu. We went over to Komatsu a couple years ago. Where was it to? Georgia. Wherever they were doing. And we. We got the first 900. They brought it out to us.

[A]

Brand new machine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've never even. I don't think I've seen one in the states yet.

[B]

So we had it for about six months. And that was an amazing machine. It worked good. But then when I. I was just renting it because I'm conservative and petrified always. But then when I saw how much we still had then we ended up buying the 370.

[A]

Before I was going to say that was a new machine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you did the airport and then you hit the schedule I take it. Did you get it done right on time?

[B]

We actually got it. Could have got it done seven weeks early. We got it done three weeks early. And the city threatened or not threatened, they kept saying they would give us a bonus leading up to if we got it done. And I figured out the dollar a day I wanted to do for the bonus to keep the pace I was going. And they just kept him hauling around and I knew logically thinking they couldn't do that because this was a bonded bidded job so they'd be in trouble that way. And so they didn't do anything. So we, we gave them till Monday, decided till Friday and when they didn't step up then we just went from, we went to 10 to finish it off. Yeah, we still finished it about three weeks early.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

So it was good. We were, we were tracking in, we were, we were on it pretty good. And you know with Wheeler was a big deal behind me on that because once again the 374, that's pretty hard machine just come up with. They came up with that in like a week.

[A]

Well, 374, 390 like that.

[B]

Yeah. The other ones were planned but the second was not planned. Okay. And then like one night, this couldn't have worked more perfectly. On Friday about 4:30 we broke a track pin on a 395 and they. Or is a 390 and they couldn't. Obviously those aren't parts that are stock because there's not very many of them around. Wheeler stepped up and they came out between working Salt Lake and getting down here. They made the, they, they physically made a track bin for it and they got it running at 4:30 Sunday night before we started our 5 o' clock shift. So they were just behind us all the way. We had no, we had a, you know, at that point in time the K tech, we were running the K tech suggested we did a Volvo's. You know and I'm just Cat, I'm not going to do that. Then everything that K tech said would happen to the cats happened to the cats. When he had the bad transmissions, I.

[A]

Was going to say they had a.

[B]

Bit of a transmission but Wheeler stood behind it and so did Cat. I feel like I handled that good. I went to, I Went to Wheeler and they went to CAT to discuss what I wanted to do. Took them about a month to give us the approval to do it. So CAT was on board to do it when we did it. And so in doing so, they had a one or maybe two backup trucks we had sitting there at all times. And I bought an extra hitch. So just in case it happened, which it happened four times. We had a truck within 15 minutes. We were rolling with the other one. We just unhook it, put it.

[A]

Why'd you go with the ktex over, like 627s or 37s?

[B]

I just felt like in our area where our material is so different, you know, we have so much rock. I just. The scraper's just never been great for those. I don't want to tear them up. And, you know, the operating costs are way cheaper. And we can put a bed back on and not be. If I have all those big scrapers, then what do I do with them when we get into the rock? And at that point in time, you know, 50, probably 70% of our work is in rock. So we had. No, not a lot of scraper work a lot of the time.

[A]

Because you were over on the other side of the highway there. Yeah, mostly in that lava field there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So. And I. You know, and once again, because everyone said I should have did 37, I'm going to go with something different. And I just loved it because that's.

[A]

Probably how any other contractor would have done it.

[B]

That's how everyone says I still should have done it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

People still don't believe him. And I, you know, I had a lot of opinions about it, but with K Tech and the assist of the truck, I can run it with D8. I don't need a D9, and I can get full loads with it. And we were pulling a train when we were going. When we were going to the end of the Runway. So that was about 72 yards at a time. And then a huge deal with it. With the four tires on the back, we were getting compaction. They never ran a compactor on the whole job. We never ran a compactor till we got to road base.

[A]

I think anybody, though, that. My opinion is anybody that points out people are wrong or says they should do it this way or that way. I feel like they haven't built enough stuff, if that makes sense. Or maybe they've spent too much time in the office.

[B]

Yeah, maybe.

[A]

Like, I think anybody that still builds stuff, there's just too many variables.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they understand that and appreciate that. There's this humility that the work itself provides. Whether you want it or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It'll give it to you.

[B]

Or maybe I feel like a lot of these guys, you know, they're generational or it's been handed down. They don't know how to do anything outside themselves. I don't have a teacher. Yeah. My teacher is messing up every single day and then probably not try not to mess up again. And doing the same thing the next day. Day.

[A]

Well, one of the best ways I've ever heard. It was actually this week. I was with two guys and they were loggers in Oregon and they were hand felling 400 plus year old trees. Fire. So fire came through and they were clearing the road. This old, these old growth trees that were. They don't look all that big in the distance. And then you see him walk up to them and you're from a little ways away. You're like, that's unbelievable. And this is, it's the most dangerous job in the United States.

[B]

Oh wow.

[A]

Like one wrong. They only do it six hours a day. That's how dangerous it is. Because you need to be totally locked in the entire time. And there was so much to it. But he, one of the guys was like, out here we are the weakest link. We're the weakest thing out here. And Mother Nature wins 100% of the time.

[B]

Never lets him.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I am, I am the weakest link anywhere out here. And it was like, wow, that's a perspective. But you have to have that perspective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if you start thinking you're not, that's how you get killed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's the same thing in earth moving. It's like there's just so many variables. There's so much to it. You can't, you can't start believing your own.

[B]

And it changes dramatic. At least in our area. Maybe other places it doesn't. But ours. I can be completely different in the morning than I am in the afternoon and I have to react accordingly. Otherwise we'll get eaten up pretty fast.

[A]

Or nowadays the company is bigger. I feel like you've grown a little bit now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're starting to do more stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you're paving now.

[B]

Yeah. We have our in house paving company and then we pretty much have our in house concrete as well. We do most everything turnkey except for electrical and landscape on subdivision or site work contracts.

[A]

So you can, I mean you have your trucks.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You transport your own Equipment, Huh?

[B]

We have about 40 trucks right now.

[A]

Really?

[B]

So we moved about a million and a half yards in on road trucks in 20, 25. Really? Huh.

[A]

Just for yourself?

[B]

Just for. Well, for our. Yeah, for ourselves.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

No, we don't ever hire out to anybody. We just run our own. And then we. We still sublease about 20 to 30 trucks on a daily basis.

[A]

Have you always been in trucking as well?

[B]

I hate trucking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, we've always had to have them.

[A]

You've always had trucks.

[B]

And I've tried to, like, not have them as much as we do, but at the pace we're moving, I just. So you can't rely on everything I do. Everything I became is a product of someone letting us down. You know, there was the asphalt thing. That wasn't really my deal. I didn't really care to be an asphalt guy, but after getting kicked around so much many times, we became the asphalt guy, and we have an amazing asphalt crew. So it's just kind of made sense, and it just makes us. Because I. I'm very prideful, and I'm competitive, and I will not miss our schedule and everything that I can see that gives us the opportunity to have a problem with that, I go try and bring it in house. And sometimes I've went a little too far. Not really. I guess sometimes it feels like. You know, when we couldn't get manholes and catch basins, I was on a quest, so I flew all over, and I now own manhole and catch BAS forms. And I can pour a manhole in about 22 minutes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I've never poured one. It's just in case I have to do it. I'm ready to go. So when other companies are saying they can't get it, my form is sitting there ready to go. So I'm just a product of whatever people let us down on. Luckily, my guys are all, we're just a tight family. And they're all. They'll follow me off a cliff, so we'll. They're just willing to. I don't know. They're just all about my craziness. And it's pretty good if I bring something out. It's like a. It's my idea of whatever it may be. And when it comes to reality, it's maybe like 50 degrees off what I even said. But always 10 times better or more than 10 times.

[A]

Yeah, trucks. Trucks are one. I'm surprised more people don't do it, because I. I know they're an absolute necessary evil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's such a big part of so many jobs to not control it.

[B]

Yeah, it's a killer. You got these big machines going, you know, and all the production and just. It's a huge deal.

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of people don't do it. I understand. For the liability, but it's like, there's a lot of decisions that are made in business to avoid liability.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And avoid lawyers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. But it's.

[B]

It.

[A]

It's not a very good business decision. Yeah, I see that a lot.

[B]

I would agree with that.

[A]

Everybody's so, so risk, avoidant.

[B]

They're all like, well, I don't want that risk. I'm like, my opinion has always been, I got all the risk anyway. I'm screwed anyway.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[B]

I need to go all in and protect what I can.

[A]

Well, and you already have all these pickup trucks driving around on the road every day with your name on them, so.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. It's. I just. I hear that all the time. I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it. Protect yourself, whatever. But that's not. Seems like you're protecting yourself in a different. Wrong way.

[A]

Yeah, well. Yes. Yeah. And. And like, my argument with my dad, who was an attorney, was like, if I had to cross the road, even in a crosswalk, he would tell me the 50 different ways I could get screwed crossing the road. But it's like. But I still have to cross the road. I understand that, but like. But like, my meal is on the other side of the road and I don't eat if I don't get it. So I'm crossing. And so I'm sorry, I have to kind of ignore your advice, but I eat what I kill.

[B]

Right. There you go.

[A]

And it's a different mentality.

[B]

It's. It's. It's. Yeah, I just. And this. And I think that's what's created are somewhat of our success with our, you know, our reputation, our long term. Because I'm never telling anybody that I. Oh, I didn't quite get this done because I couldn't get the trucks. I control everything, and I will make it happen no matter what. And I'm not worried about. Like I say, I've got all the liability anyway. The fact that they think they're limited liability is kind of an absurd statement to me. But maybe that's just because I'm a hillbilly and I don't totally understand the legalities of it, you know, But I feel like I got the liability every second that the second My eyes open, I got all the liability anyway, so let's just go.

[A]

Yeah. A friend's dad who was a businessman, he said if I don't want any liability, I just lay in bed all day.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good point. We have, we weren't, we wouldn't be in this business.

[A]

You've done, you've done a lot of stuff. I feel like you're well known in the area too for doing stuff that then everybody else does. Like one of the things that everybody does in southern Utah is tinted windows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On machines. Yeah, everybody. It's the only market I feel like in America where every machine has tinted windows on. I grew up in Arizona. Like a very sunny place. It's like still the desert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'd think there'd be tinted windows. You won't see any.

[B]

No.

[A]

But I feel like now because I think you were the first one to do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tinting stuff.

[B]

Yeah, we were. Did that, you know, just because it's nicer. It's nicer, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then when we started painting the wheels on the loader, you know, we painted black. Cuz I'm always just trying to stand out, you know. So then our dealers getting people calling in, trying to get the black option, like what we got. I'm like, well, it's pretty simple. Just go to Walmart and there's spray, can you. But you got to do it every six months because it falls off. Yeah. It's pretty simple.

[A]

Painting. Go for paint.

[B]

Yeah. Then our light bars became a thing, you know, because we put all light bars on the front of them.

[A]

Yep. Light bars.

[B]

And I'm just always trying to stand out because I don't want to look like anybody. I don't want to be like anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then that's where we decided on a 30th year anniversary to paint all our machines. So I'm like, no one's gonna do this. That was actually one of your ideas that I got from.

[A]

Well, it was. The credit belongs to Randy because that's what he was doing.

[B]

Well, I wouldn't have thought about it as much if you would have told me about it.

[A]

Well, I, because I, I, I couldn't recommend that more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has it, I mean, have you regretted doing it?

[B]

No. Remember you came to our house and you told us that and then I just did it.

[A]

You just did do it.

[B]

Yeah. Did it that way.

[A]

Next time I talk to you, you're like, yeah, I hired a guy to do it full time.

[B]

We decided, you know, that was kind of our 30 year anniversary. So I just threw it out there like I do with everything else without thinking totally cause and effect of what. So it took us two years. Two years to go through valvering machines. So now we have every single machine done.

[A]

And it's like a. It's like a dark gray.

[B]

It's like the whole thing, which is insanely how it started was Ford magnetic gray. Because that was my 150.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So then. Okay. I got the semis in Ford magnetic gray. I'm like, well, might as well keep this train rolling.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And once again, zero thought there was zero thought into this color. It's just. That's the color it became for no reason.

[A]

And then it's like red accents.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Red handrails.

[B]

Yeah, red handrails.

[A]

It looks so cool.

[B]

No, thank you.

[A]

And then the big. Yeah. And you took. Fortunately you took the cat stickers off everything too. Like on the new machine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That drives me nuts when people don't take the stickers off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like put your name on it. Like everybody knows it's cat. You don't need to be advertising for any company Cat Komatsu, John Deere take. I would take every sticker off.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I would put my name all over that machine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's what like and it's not original thing I go to. When you go to Switzerland or Europe, everybody has equipment branded and so you can.

[B]

You know who's it.

[A]

Who you are exactly. Like I can tell you I know all these companies. You can from across the city. You could see someone's job. Oh that's a in plenty a job or whatever. Like you know who's doing it because of all of the signage on everything.

[B]

It made a thing to where it looks like we're everywhere. It looks like we're 10 times bigger than we truly are because just we're. We're seen.

[A]

Well that when Clyde bought Randy's company, Blunt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was one of the comments he got was wait, I thought you guys were bigger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Way bigger.

[B]

It was that plus you know, this day and age trying to attract new employees and our customer base was good. But you know, as our area grew, we have a lot of up north people coming down and they don't know us. So I see their risk. You know, they're trying to manage risk. They know the larger companies from up north coming down so they're more reliant on that and just make us stand out. But the real big thing was because I hate looking like everybody yeah. And to try and attract the younger guys because now we're like the gray mafia, you know?

[A]

But that I feel like in business this, this is what frustrates me in business is everybody's kind of doing what everybody else is doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Few people think for themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's, it's so much more fun. Like there's this obsession with competition and it's like, that's fine. But I think sometimes it's counterproductive because you become so obsessed about what other people are doing. Like, just do what you do the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just treat you as the competition. And as long as you're doing your best, like you'll, you'll create something that's truly original, which is then ironically what everybody else will be watching and chasing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's, that's what, like, I think people treat business as just like this, like mathematical exercise. Like it's just a spreadsheet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's, it's like when you're creating something new, there's this, there's this like art to it as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a lot of times these, these decisions don't pencil.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's based on a gut feeling.

[B]

Well, I've got just run through the coals on. I'm going to go bankrupt. Why would you waste your money? You know, it's like if you look at all of our superintendent trucks, we have their F350s lifted. 10. And when. I mean, they look like showroom trucks. Because I want my guys to feel like badasses when they leave their house because they're going to get annihilated all day. And I want them to feel like they don't look like better than everybody in our whole existence everywhere we go. And that's like. That's a good comment you make about obsessing over everybody else. I'm very competitive, but I don't care what anybody is.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We work within ourselves. I go to these pre bids. I am not friendly. I show up a minute late. I pull in, I leave my hitch out. So hopefully someone hits the hitch and I have nothing to say. I am ready to move on. And we just go. And I'm very competitive, but I keep it within myself. Yeah. And all of our guys are the same way. They don't. We're really known as being really non approachable. You are from the outside world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You are. Which I, I don't. I am very approachable, I think. But that's not what my reputation is. I just have no time for nonsense. Yeah. I, I want legitness and I want to be around people that are better than me and think like minded and I don't, I don't want to be down worrying about the other stuff.

[A]

It's. But the, there, there is a lot of logic behind looking good and then performing good though. Like I feel like the construction industry doesn't place nearly as much. They don't place nearly as much emphasis on some of these very obvious things. Like you go look at any high performing team. Do they look like. No, no, they don't. They like, what's one of the basics that every high performing team adheres to? Details.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they keep the details squared away. And it's like I, I can, I can, I've talked, I've said this a hundred times, but I can go to a job site and within five minutes of looking around tell you how good of a company it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By looking at, by looking at what it looks like.

[B]

Oh, I could always tell. Just digging basements, I could tell how they left the spoils pile.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and, and luckily we, you know, I've had that mentality all the way through that we do perform because if we painted it and we didn't perform, we kind of look pretty silly.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We'd look really silly and then be deservant of all the weird comments we get.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But we don't, we perform. So it's all right.

[A]

Yeah, but that, that has to come first.

[B]

That has to come first.

[A]

And I think people, at least I've misunderstood that along the way. But, but I haven't. Like you. Yeah, you have to be good. You have to deliver before the other stuff falls. Like it follows it trails.

[B]

It's like going back to how we started. We didn't have shirts and hats for five years. I'm looking at companies that haven't even dug a hole yet and they have shirts and hats. Like it seems like we ought to figure out the other stuff before we go to that. You know, like we're not worrying about the real business, we're worrying about something different.

[A]

But now you get your stuff, your, your team a bunch of stuff or what? Every year you buy, you buy your team a bunch of apparel and all that. I mean even the Christmas party you guys have. Yeah, whatever. I don't know who's buying all those gifts. Is it you buying the gifts or. Holy smokes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We wanted to stop by and throw my name in the hat.

[B]

I mean, we want our guys to feel like how amazing they are because our work is extremely difficult. Everyone for I don't know. The outside world just thinks you're dirt dirt guys. But it's like more complicated than ever. You know. Looking at how the work is laid out now. It's. I read a thing and then I went back and actually looked at it. How it doesn't seem like we're any more productive than we were in the 70s.

[A]

We're not.

[B]

And we're not. And I looked at that myself. We're no more productive than we were in 2005. And we have more stuff but the requirements are harder. So it's sucking some of that dry. And then the engineering has just got absurd. Like it's. It's like a rough guideline of what we're building. It is so out of control. So now it makes our guys have to be more in an engineering mindset.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I want those guys to know how much they mean to us.

[A]

Well in engineering is not getting any better.

[B]

No.

[A]

I. Well AI might have something to do with it. But like I went to engineering school. Coming out of school you don't know how to design anything. Zero. There's no. That was my problem with engineering school. It drove me nuts actually was how little we actually learned about how the world worked. Like and they don't require anybody to actually go work. I was. I was in construction. So they required two years internships.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the civil. Civil kids that were in similar class. We were all taking the same classes. They didn't have to do any real world anything.

[B]

I feel like that should be minimum as part of your degree. You got to be in the field for two years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think because you're building this thing. I don't understand how the engineers put these contracts out and do all these things. But the contractor is responsible. Lump sum items or on the plans like to be determined by the contractor. But I'm responsible for everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you guys don't even know how to draw. We've. We basically became somewhat of our own. We don't have an engineer but we've got such a good reputation that we're able to fix stuff on the fly. And they're all pretty much dealing with us that way. But it's. It's just got to be a horrible thing. And I don't know. I'm getting a weird place in my life because we started young. Now I'm this. And now I'm watching some of the guys that we were with. Now the younger engineers are coming in. They're wanting to kind of check out, give it to the younger engineers and they have no idea what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it's starting to implicate or impact our, our costs because we can never get a decision because they don't know what they're doing.

[A]

It's. I listen to a woman, she's professor somewhere, maybe Washington University or something along those lines. But she studied the increasing cost of construction as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because like you look at how much stuff costs now, it's just, it's out of control for arguably the same or worse quality in a lot of ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a highway in the United States of America, inflation adjusted since the start of the interstate system, cost three times per mile. What it was inflation adjusted. Yeah. So with inflation, it's many, many, many, many times.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's three more times, three times more expensive to get the exact same mile of highway less than 50 years ago.

[B]

This is not right.

[A]

It's not right.

[B]

We have more machine control, everything that should make us more efficient. Getting eaten up in the other end, that shouldn't. That's not doing their part well.

[A]

But I think a lot of it is because the contractor has no leverage. And the contractors abused by the, the engineering companies. The consultants. The consultants are even worse than the engine. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who are the consultants? I don't know.

[B]

Like.

[A]

But they make a ton of money.

[B]

And they're not very good at consulting.

[A]

I, I think I should have went into consulting because, man, it's just. You make a killing for not a whole lot and no liability.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Lawyers, there's like all these reviews and this and that. Like, it's just so much more complex to get anything done now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That a lot of it, like a lot of the cost is not even the building part of things.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's all the other stuff, like the building parts. Almost the easy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Easy part of the equation now always.

[B]

It's the easiest part of the equation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In my opinion, for what we do, it's always the easiest part. Yeah.

[A]

Are you still involved? Like, are you still in the field every day?

[B]

No, not every day. I, I see our jobs about probably every third day. And it's more in a drive by capacity because I'm just in between things. So I'm always driving through them and checking them out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I'm still doing. I still do all the estimating and basically everything we do.

[A]

Okay, so you're still.

[B]

None of my roles really changed other than it's gotten more aggressive on the office end as we got went to that next level. It took more of my time, which kind of pulled me a little more out of the field than I used to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm still, you know, I've ran a machine in the last month.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's pretty good.

[A]

Better than most.

[B]

Yeah, I try and make it a point if I can, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just helps those, it helps our guys, you know, I want our guys to understand where I'm coming from. And they all, you know, are long term guys. They know what I'm about and they know I'm all about just going and helping them whatever we do. And I just want to always keep that going because like, how can I ask them to do anything if I'm not willing to do it?

[A]

Well, and I don't, I don't think it works the other way. It can work, but I don't think you can do anything significant. Like every great company with a great culture and great team.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has the guy at the top doing just that. Yeah, there's no exception. I haven't, I haven't found one exception. And there I've. You're at summit. I'm throwing, I threw away my summit talk because it was focused on companies. And I think the real responsibility here is leadership. Like if we want our team to be better, we need to be better. And you know, when I worked in the industry, I worked was. It was a brief amount of time, like four and a half years. But, but it was, it was a pretty big sample size. Within four and a half years I went to five different companies in four states. Totally different projects, different roles, et cetera. It was awesome. But there's one guy that I still talk about and it's Rich Pearson, the guy that ran the company that I first worked for. Because in all those, in all that time, all those job sites, all those companies, I only saw one senior leader on the job site and it was him. Well, that was the only time. Well, I would see sometimes senior leadership, but they'd, you know, stop into the job trailer or whatever to look at the numbers. All right, thanks guys. Yeah, you're doing great. The big companies especially are the big worst offenders at that. And then they peel out the mid sized companies. I wouldn't really see leadership. I mean, maybe they'd stop by but they wouldn't interact with anybody if they, you know, drove by or whatever it was. Yeah, it's not that they're bad people, but there's one guy I remember and then I'm still talking about and It's Rich Pearson. And there's one guy that I worked personally harder for than anybody else. It was that guy. Because he was, like. He was there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he wasn't even there all that much. He'd stopped by, like, every few weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he'd at least come out and, like, see what the hell was going on.

[B]

It's been a big deal for us, I think, just, you know, as far as, like, seeing him all the time. But whenever we start a big job or in the middle of them, I'm always the kickoff guy in the field with them. We show them what's going on, sit down with the plans, and then we'll do periodic checks inside as the job progresses. Depending on the size and complexity of the job. Probably the guys that get the least amount of attention from me is the finished grade guys. Sure. Because by the time we're putting Kermit Gutter in, I'm out. There's nothing for me to talk about.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And just due to my time constraints, I don't get to spend as much time as I would like to with those guys. I'm usually in the problems. In the middle of it with those guys. When it's. When it's a problem. That's where I'm at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's. It's good. They. They. They know. It's always been good. Because I'll go sometimes. What do you want me to do? You want me to run a jumping jack? The loader? Whatever you want me to do. Whatever. I can be the best help for today. It's more just like helping them and seeing. Let them know I'm there and we'll do whatever we got to do. It used to be sometimes I get in the side dump. And then the joke was always. They could always tell when I was in the side dump because I'm going 90 miles an hour through the job and passing all the guys. But it was a great way to see what was going on because I go see all the jobs.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

And I'm productive.

[A]

That would be a good way to do it.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

You have a cdl.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

So you can just get in the side dunk and cruise to different jobs.

[B]

Yeah. My equip. My operations manager sometimes bans me from. He won't let me run a train.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But I can do a single. He's single. That's fair.

[A]

If you ever have the opportunity to go to Western Australia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The trucks and the trains out there are unbelievable.

[B]

That would be amazing.

[A]

It was Unbelievable. Driving across Western Australia and just seeing like the trucks out there are so much bigger and so much more powerful. And then they're pulling four, four to five trailers.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like long road trains.

[B]

That would be cool to go see.

[A]

It's really cool. I mean they're so long that technically to do it right. You should have a cb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. Because you should be like. They'll tell you when you can pass safely because it's so long. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just unbelievable. And with how many of them there are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because some of the mines they transport, like the big mines, they'll be all rail. But then the small mines, you know a rail connections like a billion dollars or whatever it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they. They're not going to go build rail infrastructure. So they'll put it all over the road like iron ore just. And they'll just run road trains.

[B]

So that's a lot of road work too, to keep up with that. Huh?

[A]

You'd think so. The roads aren't the best, but it's also the desert. So it's all like chip seal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it doesn't. It doesn't really go anywhere.

[B]

Huh. Interesting.

[A]

And a lot. And then. And then in the Northern Territory. This is crazy. They run mostly dirt roads.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they have guys that maintain the roads with graders. But it's so remote that the grader has a hitch on the back and it tows two trailers, one with a pickup on it and then the other one in tools and fuel. And then the other one is like a caravan for where they live as they go. And they just. They just tow everything they need. They'll be out there for weeks.

[B]

That was another topic of conversation in our town. Because that's what I do with our graders. They tow their trucks.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah. We put just a blue ox hitch on the back like an rv. One put in a ripper shank and hook up and away we go to the next.

[A]

Job wise.

[B]

So then I don't have to take someone back to get the truck. They go with their stuff and away they go. Then they're grading in the first 22 minutes of being in there instead of going back and getting their truck.

[A]

Sure. Do you have to have license plates on them or.

[B]

No, not in Utah maybe, but I didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wasn't worried about all of them. Tell me the.

[A]

So where do you. Where do you guys go from now?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

What are you thinking about?

[B]

You know, just.

[A]

Just keep building.

[B]

Keep doing our thing. Yeah. Yeah. We're just keep doing our asphalt and our, our company now has changed a little bit. We're about 30% government, 30 private and 30 our own development. So we, we go buy property and produce the end product all the way through. And that's happened since 2021, 22.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that's been a really good thing for us because it's kind of, I call it the circle of Life. Ever since 2008, I was not ever going to be stuck in one thing. And by having all three avenues going at all times, they kind of all feed each other. And that's been a really valuable thing for us to be able to. You know, we had a big job, we just did that how to slide. So all of a sudden the total job was 200,000 yards of earthwork. The slide made the excess 220,000 yards. Or do I get rid of that? Well, I had three other projects of our own going that I could go put it on or I went and bought another project to get rid of it. So we've got that development arm going pretty good because we've got a lot of our own, you know, 25 year old customers since recession. A lot of these home builders, they don't want to be sitting on, they just want to buy finish lots so they know what their risks are. And so, and they trust us because we're producing them when they say and what they need. And so we, we, you know, I think since 2022 we've produced and sold about a thousand laws really. And amongst our other work, that's a.

[A]

That'S quite a bit.

[B]

That's where my time got really out of control. That's where I started not being able to be in the field as much as I want. Because when I started doing that development arm, that was a whole nother animal that I had no idea the kind of time that would take out of me. And it's unscheduled time. You know, it's like problems come up and it's more like with the politics of it getting it through the city.

[A]

And I was gonna say the building's the easy part.

[B]

I mean I've had one of our ones that we just did. It took me three years to get it approved to be able to start building on. So that's, that sucked a lot of time out of me that I didn't anticipate and it's, you know, once again maybe you try and hire somebody that. But it's our own projects and by the time I deal with them Just better to do it. And it's protecting our interests. So it's been learning a lot with it. But it's. It's made. I think it's made our company stronger as a whole. For sure. Because of the fact we can maneuver within everything. If other companies have these problems, they can't react the way we can because they. They're stuck in one thing.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. So you can move the. The pieces. We can move different parts of the board.

[B]

So. Yeah. We're. We're one of the only contractors that are doing so many different variations of everything.

[A]

Yeah. But you. But you have to. Because the reality of working within a small radius.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's only so much work, so you have to do everything.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I would change that either.

[A]

No.

[B]

I know anywhere I go, I don't think I would do anything different.

[A]

I think it's one of the best models in the industry. That's completely underrated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vertical integration within a single market, I think is. I've only seen it done a few times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But everything. Every time I've seen it, it's extraordinary.

[B]

But it took us this long to build this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I couldn't have done this 15 years ago.

[A]

Yeah. Well. And. And as you know, like now, especially, like 15 years ago, you could just go get your own gravel pit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you could do your own rock. Whereas now there's been so much consolidation on materials.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And regulatory capture. They don't say that, but 100%. That's what's going on is it's really hard for somebody to get on the material side of things, which is a huge part of your cost.

[B]

Yeah. And luckily we got that. So we got that a couple few years ago.

[A]

You got that.

[B]

But that was a big deal to get it away from those big guys.

[A]

Yeah. But that, like, there was some luck involved in something like that. Because they don't want that.

[B]

No, they did not want that. They're not happy about that. This is a thing that comes up continually right now. Huh. But it was great. So we do. Because once again, they underestimate us every time. Think we're what we are, and we just. Because I don't talk. We just show up and go. And then there's. Then they can talk about it when we're gone, and then we'll just be doing our thing.

[A]

But isn't it funny too, how, like, you can. You can. You can get results for this long and people still talk.

[B]

Yeah, it is. It's just I mean, to this day, people still say it's because my wife's family gave us the money, that they were the money behind the business.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

To this, the same guys say it. They can never make their own business work. And I just like, well, cool.

[A]

They're not the ones winning.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah. I see it a lot in sports. It'll be some. Somebody on TV saying, like, when. Say when he was still playing, like, Tom Brady's not a great quarterback after he wins his, like, sixth ring. Okay. Come on. Come on.

[B]

You can. Yeah, you could say that. But I mean, for how long we are now, you can only. You know how risky and costly this business is. That only lasts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Given money can only last so long. You don't have to have substance.

[A]

Well. And you can't. Yeah. You can't pretend.

[B]

No.

[A]

In this world.

[B]

No.

[A]

It'll kill you.

[B]

And then it's. It's. It's better now, though. A lot. You know, a lot of them now that we have really not got a lot of negative about the gray, which shocked me some right out of the. Out of the gate was pretty bad, but now it's. It's. People just kind of follow it and, like, I don't know. It's been interesting to watch the reaction.

[A]

It looks cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It looks really badass.

[B]

Yeah, we love it. Yeah. I want my guys to feel like badasses.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, I want them to know, oh, I just worked for this guy. I got this. Oh, I work for the gray guys. You just see my 374. Yeah.

[A]

Has it. Has it. Has it helped recruiting?

[B]

Yeah, I agree. Because we got a guy from Alaska that follow our social media because, you know, I'm not crazy big on that, but we had a guy doing it, and once we did the gray, and he. Because of that, he saw me came clear from Alaska.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

So, yeah, it's helping somewhat.

[A]

Is hiring all that challenging?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's been really challenging, you know, and I've done. I've made all the mistakes that everyone. I made every mistake. You know, I'd be mad about it. You know, this generation doesn't know how to work. We bumped the wage up as high as we could, so then we're getting people from Red Lobster coming in because the wage is high, but they have no idea what it is. Then I'm getting even more frustrated because we're such a tight unit on one hand, but then the new people coming in, it's just such a. Such a spread, you know, such A gap. So after a lot of stuff going to the dirt summer now, and I just, I just constantly thinking about stuff and what we enacted this time. I feel like it takes me about. It costs about $1,000 per employee to onboard a new employee. Put them through the thing, put them through the, you know, the OSHA and all that. And then by the time I send them out there, a thousand dollars if nothing happens, like a safety issue or something.

[A]

And that's not even the opportunity cost or anything.

[B]

No, that's just like what it costs to do it. And so what. And this actually happened after the dirt summit. You guys said we need to put. Just try and put one thing in place by the first of the year. Right. Why did seven. The day we got home from Dirham and one of them was. And this wasn't anything you said, but I was just sitting there thinking about it. So we. And my kids coming into this business has been a big deal, you know, because they've. They have the year. They have the young mindset. So my mindset. This generation sucks. They don't know how to work all. All the normal things that everybody says.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the other thing that helped me a lot is my granddaughter. She's now three. And everything she says is why. So everything that we talk about is why. And so it. My mindset completely shifted that this generation, yes, they're not as gnarly as we are for sure. That's just the thing. But they're used to instant gratification. You have had a phone in their face in their entire life. So they're all about it. You just have to be prepared to explain why all the time. And they're more than willing to do it, but you have to be way more, you know, just go do that. Doesn't work anymore. You got to explain to them exactly why and what and what the outcome is and where they're going to go. Sure. And once I shifted my mindset in that that I think that dramatically changes everything. And then we came and we set up. I don't know. It's pretty barbaric right now. I don't know where it goes, but we called our. We started a training thing like three or four years ago where we have a full dedicated about every quarter, maybe we bring 45 of our guys and we teach them leadership training. Nothing to do with our work. It's just making me a better person. You know, if you're a better husband, better father, better everything, you're gonna, your work's gonna be easy. It's kind of like the engineering. Right. It's going to be easy if you. You have these pieces in play. We've always had a marriage and family counselor on board, too. Like for guys, when I see that they're struggling, because when I was so in tune with them, I'd make them go. They would never go. They would not want to go. And it became a requirement. You have to go. And then it saved a lot of their. You know, just helped them a lot in life. And then now when we onboard new guys, we've set up a thing in our yard where we have. We interview them. They make it through the interview, then we're going to pay them for one full week, eight hours a day. And it's going to be if you pass this thing, then we go to the next week and see where you're at. And so week one, we go out and we set up manholes, valves, teach them how to do all the basics thing that the laborer would need to do day one. So they have to go through these things for five full days, one after the other, until they're proficient in what they're talking about to the minimal things. Because these guys would get out there and they have no idea. I mean, I had no idea that's where my sewer went. They have no idea what's going on. Yeah. And it's just the way of the life. Right. So we teach them these things and then we hand deliver them now to our guy instead of, oh, go over there to this job and find this guy. And then that's your guy. And he walks up to that guy. He doesn't know what's going on with him. He could be mad or whatever's going on. This guy knows nothing. So then the tension just gets really high. At least now he knows what a tense tape is. And now he knows how to read it. And now he knows how to step up the laser and a certain basic task. Grab a chain. What's a chain? They don't even know what that is. Sure. And that's been huge. And then it tells us like in that five days, we can tell if they have a little bit of work ethic and we can work with it or we just part ways. And it was far, far better than what we have been doing form a safety standpoint for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it's. And then. Well, the one thing that. The big reason I started that was what I heard at dirt summit camera. Who said this. The first 40 hours dictates half of your career within that company. And I'm like, well, I'm doing really shitty at that. I need to change that first 40 hours right now because I know. I'm just pissed about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we switched that whole dynamic, and a lot of that was our kids, you know, coming in because they're talking to these guys where my. My boy was in the dirt bikes. They're always, you know, he was. Talked to a lot because of his past. And so we get real time emotion of what they're really feeling.

[A]

I see.

[B]

So it was a big, big advantage for us to change our mindset because he's.

[A]

Yeah, he's kind of like a peer with a lot of these guys now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, he's like, 20, 24. 24.

[B]

24. Yeah. So he, you know, they always looked up to him. And then he's. He's been doing all the, you know, all the stuff we're doing. He's been running utility crews now. So he just. He wasn't the boss's son by any means. He was. I made him do the worst of the worst and. But he would. He just knows her mindset. So it was a big deal to. For me to change my mindset.

[A]

Well, and it allows you. For people that are saying they have experience. You don't know.

[B]

You don't know.

[A]

Like, and, and that's. We've. We've started. We're talking to more and more companies about training, and they're. They'll say like, oh, well, our people know this. It's like, well, how do you know? Yeah, you don't know.

[B]

You have.

[A]

You have no idea. And a resume, they're worthless. They're. They're not even worth the paper they're printed on.

[B]

Usually the more they say they know, the less they know.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So we do go through that piece of it. Then if they make it through that, then we use the built with training videos to go on to the next step.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because now we're going to start investing in them a little more. And so they always start in the labor position to move their way forward. I don't care if you've operated for 30 years, you're starting in the trench.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Because that'll tell me if you really are a guy.

[A]

But will you. If they're more experienced, will you pay them at a higher rate even if you start them?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's all a little bit relative.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But they're usually, you know, you got to prove that you want to be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For one, you know, and Then we. Because of the dirt summit as well, we bought the simulator a couple years ago. So then that was our next step. When you're ready to move out of labor position, you can be there two weeks or five years. It's whatever your mentality is, if you want to start moving better, start doing better. And once we're confident of that, then we'll put you into a machine. But you will pass off these certain pieces in the simulator first, because that was another thing I'm watching these new guys get in. A lot of these guys would get experience. Okay, we're done at the end of the day. Or we got a couple hours. Go get in that loader and go do this from the foreman guy. Well, when I started thinking about that, that is super sketchy because you get in there and, like, no one's gonna. No one wants to tell you they don't know what they're doing.

[A]

No.

[B]

It just doesn't feel right. Right. And they don't know what they're doing. And there's 50 buttons in there, and they don't know what they're doing. They could run over and kill somebody just by not knowing what they're doing. So we got the simulator to at least teach them. I don't totally believe it makes them a great operator by any means, but at least they know where the park button is, how to operate the machine before it's real time and a safety hazard.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So then we are now we truly are working on using the bucket correctly versus, like, trying to figure out, oh, this guy's watching me. Did I hit the park button or did I drop the bucket? And that's been a big deal. I think.

[A]

No equipment is, like, crazy dangerous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And this is where like. Like the. Again, you can tell the people that have been around it and haven't been around it, because the guys that have been around it are like, yeah, I have ruined some really good work. I have ruined a lot of equipment. Like, that's how I came up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now, because everything's more sophisticated and litigious, and there's these rules and specifications and so on and so forth. Emr, whatever it is. Like, we. You can't make mistakes anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that's how a whole previous generation came up, was making serious mistakes. And as long as they didn't do it again, we're good to go. But we can't do that anymore.

[B]

No.

[A]

So you have to create a whole new. It's a. It's a. It's a whole new way of teaching and learning.

[B]

Yeah, the mistakes get dangerous and then the equipment's so expensive. The cost. You know, our, our equipment has always been above and beyond. You know, we have a waiting list for our equipment trade in. But I've always approached that with all of our employees. Whatever their equipment is, is theirs. No one touches it, period. No one. Their trucks, their excavator, whatever it is. And then we haven't done this for a couple years, but we haven't had to. Me and my wife used to drive around, you know, about every quarter and we'll drive around with the ABC list and we will inspect the machine at night we go on date night, we go to dinner and then we drive around and we'd leave in the seat that night you'd have a dinner car. Or if you have two scratches, you have no more job. Because my opinion always was if you're scratching this machine, that could be a injury or fatality. And I don't want that on my shoulders. And if you're not treating it with respect, then I'm not going to. I don't need you here. That's just the thing. And that's what our entire company is about. So we don't have to do it anymore. Our 45 guys, they have like. It is a, it is such a thing. Especially with the gray. People are panicked if they scratch it to try and get, trying to get it some touch up back on it before someone sees it. So they're perfect at all times. And it's not. Yes, I want to look imperfect because I, that's my nature. But if you are not paying attention enough to hit the back of that thing or hit something, then you're probably not someone we need on our project.

[A]

Sure. Yeah, that's. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that complain about equipment damage and that kind of thing. And I think it's a cultural issue.

[B]

We have zero. Yeah, zero. Our biggest thing is stupid maniacs. But we remedied that problem because we got rid of the Mini X's with cabs. So now we don't have any damage because the Mini X gets bounced around to whomever and no one did it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now Mini X's, if you guys don't want to respect the cab, then you don't get the cab. And then we have no more cab issues. It's been great. And there's no fighting over it because we have four Mini X's with no cabs.

[A]

Go figure.

[B]

It doesn't it f all my problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm really proud of that. Our guys are. And our guys are really proud of it. You know, their trucks are. I don't tell them to wash them. They're washed by themselves on their own time. They take care of everything. And some of them were so prideful, they wouldn't even let them transport guy load them. They would be there to load them. You're not touching my machine.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I never would, you know, you're, we would move guys if they want to change positions or do something different. But until they are ready to, if that are in that machine, it's. No one touches it until they're ready to move on to something else.

[A]

We were in Japan at a quarry last February and the operator there, they were that it was through a translator, but they were saying he doesn't go on vacation because he doesn't want anybody to touch his machine.

[B]

We had that back in the 2000s. We had that a lot. No one was allowed to touch those machines.

[A]

Do you put people's names on their machine?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's a good move.

[B]

Yeah. We put it on all the trucks. That's a really good machines. Yeah. We started doing the hard hats. So laborers have a different hard hat than foreman's, different color. You know, so we can spot who's who put their names on the hard hats. So it's just not a guessing game. When you go up to them.

[A]

That's a good, that's a, that's a no brainer.

[B]

Yeah. And they were pretty, the guys were pretty prideful that they're. That names on their machine or their truck.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It goes a long way. I went to, I went to work for multiple companies based on what their trucks looked like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was 100%. My decision making matrix was their trucks look cool. I want to work there. I know nothing about them.

[B]

I would think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I distinctly remember I was working for one company and I was driving by. It was a Skanska bridge project on i10. And all the Skanska trucks looked badass. They all had like the company I was working for at the time. They, the truck was kind of like a brown, but then the, the logo just didn't look as good. Like it was kind of hard to tell who is who, this and this and that. But then you drove by the Skanska job. You knew it was Skanska. I had no idea who Skanska was. Never heard of Skanska in my life. But I like, you could see the blue Skanska right across the side of the truck, the white truck. And I was like, damn, that looks cool. Guess who I was working.

[B]

Want to be a part of it? Yeah. However, sometimes I feel like that's part of our problem in getting newer guys. Because they're afraid of us. Because we're such a tight knit group.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And everyone knows us. Like we don't want, we don't want. We want $25 an hour laborers or 21, whatever they are. We don't want the 15 now what? However, the lower guys. Yeah. But you got to be a guy too. And we're going to reward you for it. But you're gonna, you're gonna be a top notch guy. Not meaning you're gonna work like work your guts out any harder than anything else, but you're gonna be good all the time and responsible all the time and do the right thing all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not, there's no gray area in between.

[A]

But you're, you're not. Your company's not a commodity. Like, I think a lot of construction companies operate like a commodity. And it's like if you're saying your guys are leaving for 50 cents. Yeah, you're a commodity. That's all you are. You are, you are no different than anybody else. And that is like the reddest of flags from a cultural. And like. And your company, your company is a product as well. I don't think contractors think about that as much like they think about quality from the road that they're building perspective. But what's the quality of the product you are offering from an employment standpoint.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a company standpoint. Is it a great product?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you'll know pretty quick by looking at the numbers.

[B]

Yeah, that's been. I'd say that's our biggest challenge in business now, really. I mean, we've got the work dialed. We can do any project. I mean, I don't say we've done everything in the world, but enough so we can do anything in the world. I believe, I believe our skill set, it could carry us through anything. And now our focus is the people bringing the next generation up. And I mean, who the hell would have thought we'd even be in business at 33 years later?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So now we're trying to figure out this piece of it that we don't even know what that is.

[A]

But, but my point to people is like, has it, has it made things shittier for you? Or better, what, by pouring more into people.

[B]

No, it makes it better every time. It makes it better every time. It's hard sometimes because you get the. Some. There's always the weird guys or something. And, like, why can't. Why do we got to go through this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But once I change my mindset with my kids explaining to me without explaining it to me, they didn't tell me this. I just listening to them. And once my mind shifts. Changed in that regard, then it became like. Well, you can easily see the. The reward to this quickly if you. If you handle right or. I'm not saying I'm handling right by any means, but I'm sure trying.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And if every day I do something a little bit better, I can see, like, everyone. The. The older guys and the younger guys, you know, our whole training program, the entire company is ecstatic about it. Not just the newer guys, even the older guys, because who. Who has to deal with these guys when they come along? The new guys, the older guys. And so they're already mad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want your production, and now you've taken my laborer guy five times in the last six months. I just barely get. Because that used to be a thing. We put them. We put our new guys with our gnarliest guys, and it's the boot camp. If they make it out of there, we're good. So if they go two months. All right, you're on. Now he gets a new guy. Oh, now we got to start over again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's not right either.

[A]

No.

[B]

At least now they go to boot camp knowing how to read the tape.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Exactly.

[B]

And it changes the whole dynamic.

[A]

It's in tenths, not twelfth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah. Once I realized. Because I've always invested in them, but sometimes maybe not. Maybe I invest in them in my selfish way of what I thought. Well, thinking about their. Their how it should be rolled out for them.

[A]

Yeah. And it's not your fault because that's how you came up. But it's just like your son. It's a different world. It's not like nothing is the same about it. And so to try to use your model on that new world, it's like, it's your fault that this isn't working. And that's my whole. That's the whole message I'm focused on is, like, it starts with you. Like, you're the problem here. If you have a problem, everything starts with you. Like, and there's no. We can sit here and complain about how the world has changed, but we can't do Anything about how the world has changed. It just. It. It is what it is where we are. Yeah. And so we can. We can sit around here and. And pout about it and complain about it and go to the bar and say even worse things about it, you know, the drunker we get, or we can go do something about it. And that's where I'm at. It's like, all right, I've listened to you guys long enough here, and I've done my time. Now I've been sitting around listening to the same conversations for a decade.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's all the same. So are we going to get on with it or not? And. And now it's like, I. I am not. I am going to get on with it. I'm just going to find the people that want to get on with it, and I'm going to pour into them and make them way more successful, and the whole rest of the market's going to have to keep up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they're going to be. They're going to be trouncing everybody else.

[B]

Yeah. It's just pretty arrogant attitude, I believe, just to just approach it that way. You know, I'm. I screw up every single day, and I try and learn from it every day, and I. I want to learn. I want to have new ideas. I want to hear from everybody. I feel like it goes back to the motocross. You know, even with our kids, we were doing. I don't believe in one trainer. I want to go to 50 trainers. Not one person knows anything total, solely. I want to grab a piece from everybody that I can and what applies, applies, and then try and pass it down and hopefully one day we can get it more right than wrong. You know, I feel like we're making better strides than that, but it's. I'm just. It's. It's evolving every day, weekly, you know, dramatically. You got to be on it, and you can't just sit there and not think about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The work is easy. We know what to do with the work. The equipment's easy. We know how to do that. This is the hard part, and this is becoming easier when I change my mindset, but I still have to be thinking about it constantly, you know, just relating and different mindsets and where people came from and how their. How their home life is, everything. How it's affecting them.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because it's all different. And not one. Not one model works.

[A]

No, I, like. I think it was Bill Belichick. He said the same rules applied differently to Everybody. Yeah, every human being is different. Yeah, but that's like, you can have a shitty attitude about it or you can lean into it, like, wait, this is actually the fun of it. Yeah, like everybody is different. That, that's, that's, that's the, that's like the magic here. That's what makes it so fulfilling. And I think a lot of people are, are. Yeah, they're just, I think a lot of it's like they're just burnt out on, on being around shitty people as well. Like, it's, it's not their fault. It's like the, the result of the system that they've been in for so long, but they're just so down just.

[B]

Because of how they, how they were brought up through it all. That's how it was. You just get your ass chewed and reamed all day long without no reasoning.

[A]

Well, or there's a lot of. Because I got my ass chewed coming up for 15 years. You better get your ass. Shoot.

[B]

You gotta earn it. You gotta do what I did. It's your badge of honor.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, bro, like if that's your model, it's not gonna work.

[B]

It's like I always tell our guys, you know, when I'm trying to explain stuff, you need to treat it. I can tell all five of you the same exact story and you're. All five of you are going to give me something completely different back. None of you are going to tell me the same thing. So I'm approaching that way. We got to look at every single individual and see what they look like and try and figure out how to get, get to the end goal.

[A]

Sure. Well, I appreciate you coming down.

[B]

Well, thank you for having us.

[A]

Yeah, it's been really good. Hopefully it's painless for you.

[B]

No, I love it.

[A]

Yeah. First podcast experience.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's not my typical ammo.

[A]

No, I tell people this. This is the part where you tell people where to find you, but you're not found. So. Yeah, the company has a website.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's JP Excavating.com JP Excavating. It's on Instagram @JPX 1993.

[A]

Yeah, I see you guys on there all the time.

[B]

So. Yeah, that's where you find us.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Too easy. Trying to do some YouTube stuff, but we Fast and furious don't get a lot of time for that.

[A]

Fair enough. Right on. Well, thanks.

[B]

Well, thank you much for having us.

[A]

Sweet.