A (2:45)

Sure. But then you said your father also had a company?

B (2:50)

Yes, so my grandfather started in the 60s. My dad never joined that church, got a car and was kind of treated like the black sheep. Didn't get kicked out of the house at 17 they left him stay living there still working for my grandfather in his business. And after that he went at 22 my father bought a John Deere backhoe, borrowed Every penny of $17,000 and all he had to his name was a $3,000 Ford F250 and started his business. And they'd work side by side, they'd each bid their own work every two weeks they'd settle up and pay each other. They each had their own employees, each had their own jobs. My dad had the sinful equipment on rubber and the trucks and my grandfather had the steel equipment and his equipment and that's how they ran for about 15 years.

A (3:43)

That's unbelievable.

B (3:44)

And then my dad started getting into bigger work and subdivisions and some commercial work and then after that bought out my grandfather as the equipment just. And the paperwork and all of that got too much bought him out in the mid-80s. So I'm really technically third generation but second generation of Brubacher excavating the business that I lead today.

A (4:05)

So did they. And they got along.

B (4:09)

There were some tent spots for sure. For years my grandfather wouldn't ride with my dad in his. In his vehicle and eventually then he would, he'd haul fuel in the 5 gallon cans in the back of a 63 Chevy out to the jobs for my grandfather. So very interesting. But the relationship did eventually warm and they worked together cooperatively and it worked well. But there was always that kind of barrier of the. The black sheep that left the family.

A (4:43)

Sure. That's probably the only time I've heard of two earthmoving construction companies started by two generations side by side.

B (4:55)

Yeah, well what's even more interesting, my dad didn't keep any of the money. So in that culture you didn't keep any of your income until you were 21 and then your father would typically help you buy a farm or something. Well, that didn't happen because he had left the family faith. So that was another interesting piece to the. My dad had no money, 8th grade education, no money and so he was working for his dad. He would get the tips, he would keep the pocket the tips because people loved what he did and he just loved the dirt and said I don't want to stare at the back end of a horse for the rest of my life. So that was where it started.

A (5:32)

How good is that? Yeah, like I told you earlier, I had some early customers in similar neck of the woods of the United States. And I just showed up there. I'm very naive. I show up to these places. I'm like, so what's this place about? And I show up and there's, you know, even now I still remember. It's like that, you know, the dollar store with the hitching post.

B (5:56)

Horse ties out.

A (5:57)

Yeah, the horse. The horse and carriage is tied up out front of the dollar store. And it's like, what. What's going on here? What's happening? And then as you learn more and more about it, you're like, whoa, this is serious. And, and you're. I remember during COVID like May of 2020, when everything was real hot. I'm running through the, the farmland out in the middle. I don't, I don't know where it was.

B (6:19)

Southeastern Pennsylvania.

A (6:20)

Yeah. It was like a Honey.

B (6:22)

Honeybrook.

A (6:22)

Honeybrook. So I was running around Honey Brook, kind of like the farms around Honeybrook, and all the families are out working the fields or whatever they're doing. And I'm, I'm as. I'm just running. I'm like, these people have no idea what's going on in the world. They're just out here living. They're just doing their thing.

B (6:39)

Yep. They weren't wearing masks, that's sure.

A (6:41)

No, they're just, they're just out there living as they always have. And it looked pretty good to me. But then that was also the first place I saw like skid steers. So it'll be like a bobcat with the steel wheels.

B (6:52)

Yeah.

A (6:53)

They take the rubber tires off and they put the steel wheels on.

B (6:55)

Yep.

A (6:55)

It must be terribly uncomfortable.

B (6:57)

Oh, well, there's ways to get rubber shocks and belting in there and all that, but it's. And it's actually more expensive than tires. You think, oh, that you'll save money, but no, that's a costly. That's a costly deal.

A (7:08)

Well, I know the, the carriages can get really expensive too. Like there's some pretty high end carriers out there. Yeah, I don't, I couldn't tell the difference, but I know it's. It's a big deal.

B (7:18)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So that's, that's the community in which I grew up and where the business was founded, really. A lot of agricultural work and small residential. And then my dad gradually got into the bigger developments and commercial and industrial and utilities and life went on from there.

A (7:37)

So were you always involved in the business? When you were a kid.

B (7:42)

So I grew up. My dad started the business a year before I was born, 1971. So I'm 54 this spring and the business is 55 years old. So I had this privilege. And the older I get, the more I appreciate the value of being able to see this at all stages. Like I remember dad coming home and go down in the basement with the lights out and I don't know, he's probably pouring out his heart to the Lord down there and not sure how he's gonna make payroll. Like I remember those, you know, those dark days. Learned a lot around the kitchen table and so I really go along to meet with customers and I'd be waiting in the truck and I'd holler for him if he didn't come back soon enough. So I just grew up in it and around it. The two way radio base station was in our house on the kitchen sink, on the counter there by the kitchen. And my mom was the secretary so it was all around me. So I didn't really imagine doing anything else. I went to kindergarten for three days and story goes I told my mom I think I can't go to school tomorrow. She said, well, I don't think that's how it works. I said, no, you don't understand. I have customers on my jobs in the garden with my toy construction equipment. They have jobs that need done and they can't wait anymore. Well, I did go back to school and finish my schooling career.

A (9:00)

But you said you didn't go to college. You made it through formal school.

B (9:04)

Correct?

A (9:04)

And then right into the business.

B (9:07)

Started working summers when I was 15 and then got into the business full time right after graduation at age 18. Started as a, started as a labor. I was checking grade and picking stones with my hands and learning to run roller.

A (9:23)

And so your resume is not very long. It's just one job.

B (9:26)

It's one company. One company? Yeah, one company at the company. Not every job, but a lot of different, a lot of different roles and you know, I wouldn't trade it. I've just been pretty intentional about peer groups and seminars and you know, retreats, things where you, where you learn. And I've paid far more than you would ever paid going to college. Oh yeah, for sure. In some of those lessons, I bet.

A (9:51)

Well that's. Yeah, you think college is expensive until you get into business and then you start making real mistakes that are like seven, eight figures.

B (9:59)

Yep, yep, yep. It happens. And not the college prevents all of that. But you know, the key is to be humble enough to at least make the wrong route a short one. And that's a goal of mine.

A (10:10)

Sure. So was. Was taking it over always the plan then was that, or did you just start working?

B (10:16)

I just started working, not knowing where it would go. I mean, I just, at that point, I just love running equipment. I got to run skid loader, track loader, and got good at those things, and I enjoyed that. Then dad said, hey, you need to see a broader picture. You ought to be safety director. We need a safety director. We need to manage risk. So I was safety director for four years. And then I could see all jobs at all phases, all stages. That's where I started getting familiar with public speaking and doing training. Got our first formal safety program together. So that's kind of been in my. In my DNA. When were you.

A (10:50)

When was that? When you were.

B (10:52)

That would have been 93 to 97.

A (10:55)

So what was that? What was that like? What was safety like back in the 90s?

B (10:58)

Oh, well, that was. We were still. Wear a hard hat. If you think there's an overhead hazard and, you know, if you don't think there is, but I do, then we have this conversation and it was still kind of focused on, we need to do this so we don't get into trouble with osha, but that's a little over the top. So common sense says you do 80%, but we're not going to make you do the last 20%. And I remember standing up and telling people that. I look back, I cringe, but it was a very, very different world and really focused on training and getting groups of people together and not just relying on them telling each other in the field how to stay out of trouble. Sure.

A (11:42)

So it was. Yeah, but it was centered around, like, OSHA compliance.

B (11:46)

Compliance insurance. And we had a good. I mean, we had a good record at that time. But I look back at the pictures on the wall and say, by God's grace, nobody was killed in some of those trenches back in the, you know, the 70s and 80s. And so we had room to grow, to develop that mindset. And now today, I think I have a different view where I articulate it as we believe every person has been created in God's image and has a unique purpose. And I don't want to cut short their opportunity to discover and live out that purpose for the sake of a minute here or a dollar we save there. If I think if we have that standard, it really takes away the. Well, am I training for keeping OSHA happy? The insurance Company, msha. All important. We do all that stuff. But it's a totally different mindset than a compliance focus.

A (12:42)

Yeah. And I love that mindset. I start to have problems when it's all compliance masked and we really care about you and. But it, like, people pick it up. Yeah, exactly. People are too smart for that and too intuitive. And it's like, I put it. Like, I'd rather you just tell me. Listen, if you get injured, it's bad for business. That's our priority. So we're going to put you in a padded room, Just take your brain out, just follow the rules, and everything's good to go. I'd be. I'd be more okay with that than it put under this umbrella of like, no, this is. You are the number one asset. You know, this and that. Or like when the. I get on the airline, get on the plane and they're like, you know, you are our top priority. It's like, no, I'm not. I'm not the top priority. Like, there's. There's nothing here that says, I am the top. I know that's nonsense. Like, don't. Don't lie to me. This is silly. We're. We're. This is all this big charade. Like, the. If that was the absolute priority. And I love how Mike Rowe argues this. It's like, if safety was the priority, you wouldn't be in business. Like, the business is the priority. Like, building stuff, that's the priority. That's what we're trying to do here. But we want to do it in an effective, safe way. We don't want to be harming people as we go. But to say that's the point. Like, I passed a job site in Vegas one time, and on this, on the banners, you know, it's a big GC or whatever. It says we do safety here, and it's like, no, you don't. You build stuff there.

B (14:16)

Hopefully doing it safely.

A (14:18)

Hopefully doing it safely. But you build stuff like, safety's not the point. That's not the objective here. That's not the end game.

B (14:26)

It's the how. It's not the end result.

A (14:29)

Yes.

B (14:29)

It's how we go about doing it. And I think the motivation is such a separating point. If we have our motivation right and are transparent about that. And living safety as a value is something we've really even tried to get away from talking about safety as a priority, because priorities shift. You have a thunderstorm coming, a hole open in the road. You can't just leave it. And if Safety is a priority. You're going to start taking shortcuts and if you're living it as a value, you're going to do the right thing the right way. No matter if anyone else is looking or there's a thunderstorm coming, you're not going to jeopardize someone's life to do that. And that's been something to work through to break that. It sounds so noble to say safety is our priority, but if it's a priority, it's likely to shift depending upon the circumstances. So we've really doubled down on communicating about living safety as a value. That doesn't change under pressure. But boy, that's hard. That's hard.

A (15:29)

How do you communicate that?

B (15:30)

I just keep sharing about again and again. My team members share about that. I write a personalized birthday card to every single team member. My dad started doing that, we think back in the 80s somewhere. That's a place where I can communicate about the value of their life. If we operate and live safety as a value, they get to celebrate many more happy birthdays along with all the people around them. Just every opportunity from the weekly toolbox talks to an annual birthday card. How do we help saturate people in that mindset that we need to live out safety as a value? Sure. Whether the boss, the customer, the safety director is watching what they're doing or not.

A (16:11)

Sure. Well, it's, it's more of like a, it's like a love based operating system rather than a fear based operating system which.

B (16:18)

Yeah.

A (16:19)

And, but that requires legitimate communication and culture to facilitate and achieve. And that's why you don't see it at the really big companies because it's really hard to do that. It's, it's compliance. Fear based is easier because we're in the short run. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can create a, you can create a manual and just, just stick to the rules and then we don't have a problem. But yeah, I would say the love based operating system is a lot more effective.

B (16:47)

I never, I don't know I ever heard it framed that way. I think that's very, very insightful. But this. Do it because I say or all these bad things are going to happen. Yeah. You may get compliance at the time when you're there, but what happens when you're not there? Sure. Oh, I think it, that's where that model falls apart.

A (17:03)

Well, and, and even if you get total compliance, you're gonna have resentment for sure. People don't like just being told what to do. At least I Don't like I. Even if it's in my best interest, for whatever reason, if I'm told what to do, I'm like, I'm gonna go do the opposite just because you told me what to do. Like, I don't know that that's just.

B (17:21)

Can't be that bad. Let's see what happens.

A (17:23)

That's just how I'm wired. And I think a lot of people are wired in this way world because there are a lot of outsiders in construction. It's not, it's not the traditional path in society, I would say you have to be. You have to be wired a little differently to do this whole thing to begin with. So you're going to have resentment, you're going to have turnover, a lot of turnover. It's going to be a sterile culture, you know, sterile atmosphere which no one really wants to work in. It doesn't create anything special like it. I guess the best way I can explain it is it sterilizes everything. And I've seen those. I see those all the time.

B (18:00)

I'm sure some of the places you get in some really large organizations, you see that very plainly. I think the other thing that unique kind of to our area and certain areas of the country where there's maybe a very strong conservative faith viewpoint, especially in the older Mennonite kind of Amish community, there can be a mindset of, well, we can't protect from all hazards and life and work is inherently hazardous. So there's some truth to that. And I have a strong faith. I know where I'm going when I die and if my time's up, my time's up. And so that mindset actually can undermine some safety practices that need to be followed. This kind of resigned God knew God knows best, and he does, but taking away some of the personal responsibility to use tools and practices that help keep me safe. And that's something we fight against in our area. Not as much in our company, we have in years past at times. But that's a mindset that we face in our greater community where we're at.

A (19:11)

That's interesting. That's really interesting.

B (19:13)

It's not one you're going to find just anywhere.

A (19:15)

Not anywhere, no. It's a really unique area you're in. I would say though, like, I think about safety a lot as a personal responsibility. Like, I'm not, I'm not giving the responsibility of my safety to you. Sorry. Like, I like you, but I'm not giving it to you. I'm not giving it to anybody. It's mine. I'm going to own it. And I need, I need education on how to be safe and effective. Which is, which is I've gained over the years. But I have that background knowledge though now and I know how to take care of myself best. And every once in a while I'm in a unique environment that I haven't been in before and I need people to help me and guide me. But at the end of the day, I view my health and well being and safety as my responsibility. I'm not giving it to anyone else. And I think that's when it's like I think we need to care about those around us. But I think it starts with if you're relying on someone else to keep you safe, there's something broken there somewhere.

B (20:10)

Yeah, I agree. It starts there as you described. That's the core. And then it should flow out of that. Because of my care and love for the people around me and their well being, I'm going to have the tough conversation and speak up. I'm going to intervene. I'm going to pull them under my wing and say, hey, let me show you how we do it here. But it starts from that personal sense of responsibility.

A (20:31)

Yeah, it's interesting too how like when I asked how you did you do it, it starts with you communicating it. And that's. I'm. Now I've been thinking a lot about how to grow the industry into this next generation. And regardless of how many great people you have at your organization, the buck stops with you and starts with you. And if you're not on board, if you're not the one communicating it over and over. And you said over and over and over because I think that's an important part too. You have to be 100% bought in as a leader and then spoil. Repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. You know, there's a reason why you go to church and say the same thing every, every Sunday. You know, this is the best way I've heard it.

B (21:11)

Because God's deaf. It's because I'm forgetful.

A (21:13)

Exactly. Yes. And it's like that's what's required with people. You've just got to say it. And that's what I'm doing this year with some of our company priorities. Like I'm sure everybody's, it's beginning of February and I'm sure everybody's sick of hearing me talk about wow moments and churn, but that's the focus and I'm gonna beat that dead horse all year. Because I know that's what's required of me as a leader, but I think that's where it begins and ends, too. If you're trying to outsource it to someone else, it just. It can only be so effective.

B (21:44)

Yeah, I think of it as it starts here. I need to set the direction, be the chief spokesperson. But then I need this kind of team of evangelists that are out there sharing. And we have a very aligned team of managers that help. And, you know, it's not that people, Some people don't care as much as they should, but in general, like, everybody brings their baggage and their prior experience, so when they first come to us, they're going to think, yeah, that sounds nice. They said that at orientation at my last job. And then it tailed off. And nothing makes me happier when I hear a new team member share, like I heard last week, you know, this place is different. Other places it tailed off. And what you guys said about how you operate and what your values and priorities are is what I'm actually experiencing. And it's not diminishing, even though I'm now six months in. And so people want to see, is this just more window dressing or are these people really serious? And so it takes time for them to see. And it's not just words. They got to see it backed up by actions. And it's not that we're perfect all the time. I think the actions that back it up are also when I need to come and say, aaron, I'm sorry, what you just experienced wasn't very uncommonly refreshing in alignment with our vision. How can we make it right? And here's what we're going to do to make that less likely to happen again? Sure. And I even challenge our people. Do you have the humility to say, and I'm sorry for contributing to that? Will you forgive me? I don't know that's much construction language.

A (23:20)

That's not.

B (23:21)

But I think we need to start making that part of our language and our behavior if we're really going to build the relationships that are going to change this industry.

A (23:32)

Well, and I agree, and I think part of that is in, like, the macho world, but I think a lot of that is in the total desire for risk mitigation, like because of the lawyers and all of that part of the industry that a lot of people don't see. You don't want to admit fault like we've been trained to. It's. No, it's never my fault. Not my fault. Let's go to the contract. Like, they don't call everybody contractors by accident. Like, they don't call you a builder, they call you a contractor. And you run to the contract and like, let's hope something's in the contract to save our. Save our skin here. But then that creates these very adversarial relationships. Oftentimes. Like, it's so confusing to me, seeing how adversarial people can be on the same job site. They're all trying to accomplish the same thing, build this building. And yet it's like, so why do you hate the subcontractor that's working for you? Like, or why do you hate the owner? Or why do you hate the inspector? Why do you hate the engineer? Like, what is the engineer? What's their problem with you? Like, why is everybody after each other? We're all trying to do the exact same thing here. And I think it's a lot of the cya. Just cover your ass. It's never your fault. Take pictures of everything. You know, we're going to get blamed for stuff here. Like, no one's. No one's trusting. And I think that that creates a very poisonous world that only then rewards the lawyers further. Go figure.

B (25:00)

Well, and it so easily permeates then into how we treat team members.

A (25:03)

Exactly. Yes.

B (25:04)

And it can really quickly devolve because one feeds the other.

A (25:08)

Yeah. And that. And to me, see, I'm a little removed from this world. I'm not in this litigious world of contracting. I'm in it, you know, close enough to it, so I get to see it. But I've had the advantage of not being in this world and then being young as well. And so people will be like, well, how? Like, even I'm asked now pretty regular, like, well, how don't you run the company? Like, isn't that a problem? It's like, it's. It's never once been a problem for me. I'm not the best person for it. And I 100% trust Randy. I 100% trust Randy.

B (25:45)

And with very good reason.

A (25:46)

For. With good reason. But then I 100% trust Jason. I 100% trust Kara. I 100% trust Dan. I 100%, then trust everybody within the organization. And that creates something so powerful that I feel like so many teams and companies are lacking, like, legitimate trust. And it's not bred by saying, we trust each other. It's bred by giving your trust to everybody. Just give it, give it, give it, give it, give it all the time. And even when you're screwed that's the real hard part. Don't put up the armor and defenses and don't then not trust going. Which is, I think what happens to a lot of people too, is they. They, you know, step in a trap or get squashed by something, and then now it's like, well, you know, you're not going to fool me twice. But then it. They're the ones that lose as well. Like, the less and less you trust people, I feel like the harder and harder it makes everything.

B (26:43)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's something I fight against. You know, I. And the model we're operating in today is very different than the one I grew up in. So, you know, I was. I become president of the company at a way too young age, 32. And I really spent the first number of years trying to be like my dad and how I saw him lead, which was effective, but in a very different world in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

A (27:11)

But that's all you knew.

B (27:12)

It was what I knew. And once I realized, well, that's not going to get us where we need to go, and focused on who do I need to be and how do I need to lead in today's environment and continue to do that. And, you know, through the work that you're doing and many of your affiliates, folks in the greater dirt world, it's been very influential to help us see there's others out there that are really trying to make a difference in how we approach this industry that brings the dignity to people, extends trust. But it is that I call it a gorilla that shows up at the door every day that needs a daily beating to keep it out. Distrust, you know, just all the dysfunction that comes with that. And especially when you get in trouble, that's when the test is on, what am I going to do? And I haven't always passed it, but I at least try and learn from it.

A (28:03)

I've tried to explain to people too, like you said. So you took over at 32.

B (28:09)

Two. Young 32.

A (28:11)

So I'm going on 31 this month. And I started leading technically at 23.

B (28:17)

Mm.

A (28:17)

And this is where, like, I've beat myself up over this way more than anyone else has beat myself up. But it's. You just. You make so many mistakes because you don't. Like, I feel like a certain amount of life experience is important in leadership as well, to be effective. Like, I feel like I'm just now starting to be a little effective because I have the benefit of life experience for the first time. And Then I also kind of know who I am as a man. But it's like you're trying to lead people as you're figuring that out, and it's a recipe for disaster.

B (28:48)

Yeah, it's all. It's all real. It's all real time. But you got a decade head start on me, so you're doing good.

A (28:55)

I've made a mess, let me tell you. What were some of the things that you had to challenge, like that previous model? What were some of those ideas, beliefs that you had to get rid of that just weren't serving you well?

B (29:07)

There was a really, where do you start? Everything from some of our managers and leaders that were very effective in growing the company and building the company in the 80s and 90s and even the early 2000s, when you could bid a job wrong, do it wrong, and still make more money than you can today. When everything goes great, especially in the residential industry, it was just a hot time and realizing that some of those skills that worked then weren't necessarily going to be the ones that take us where we need to go. There were some key manager changes that needed to happen. Very painful, great people that served their purpose well, but weren't going to serve it into the future. At the same extent, some of our professional partners, people that my dad had been using to support the business for sometimes decades, and I remember one, our very competent insurance broker, would come and do training and they'd come to the renewal and they'd spend all this time telling us how great we were and we're the best client they have and trying to, you know, it was genuine, I believe it, but they weren't challenging us. And I needed someone that could tell us our baby was ugly and here's what you need to do about it so that it can carry out its mission in life. So those were some of the pieces we needed to be much more effective in training, in managing contracts. Again, working for small residential developers, farmers, homeowners. It was very different than working for large, sophisticated general contractors, construction managers. And we operated way too much on ask for forgiveness instead of permission. I mean, even around regulatory things very much, oh, let's clear another 10 acres. We'll get those swales in next week. Things you can't get by with in today's world. So it was a wide range of things spanning from the leadership, the support even to just the mentality of, oh, that's 5,000 pound overloaded. Send the lowboy down the road. Well, today we got way too much at risk. We're not, absolutely not doing that. And my dad still holds to that mindset. Ask for forgiveness instead of permission. Let's close it out. Nothing bad's going to happen. And that's not how we run the business in today's world.

A (31:31)

But I think that's one of the big, like, fundamental challenges going on right now within the industry from a people standpoint is I think the industry needs to get more sophisticated when it comes to people. And maybe, Maybe sophisticated is not even the word, but. But apply. Approach the whole thing of people differently. And I haven't been all that effective in the past because I've been criticizing people like you that are like, don't you see the world's change? Come on. Come on. Like, come along with it. We can't keep doing it this. This same way. This is dumb. But then people like you, I'm generalizing here, but it's like, well, it got me here, so it can't be wrong. Like, we're doing good stuff. We still have this big business. It's got me through decades and decades, which is completely true. It's like, we can both be right. Like that previous model, it got us to where the industry is, but it doesn't mean it's the right model.

B (32:29)

It is not going to get us going. I mean, the day of. I remember my dad saying many times I want to run a company like an alligator. You step on the tail and something snaps at the other end. And so I'm much more administratively focused and process oriented. I'm like, hey, there's some things that need to happen in between there to make sure we're doing the right thing. And that mentality of I say jump, you ask on the way up, you ask me how high and how many somersaults. And that mentality is not what is going to be successful with people today. They won't understand, and rightly so. Understand the why. How do I add value? And they want to grow through that. They want personal challenge. All very valid things that we should embrace and not be angry at.

A (33:12)

Yeah, yeah, I. And even with, like, somebody with your father or, you know, everybody approaches business like it's all just business. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. There's a thousand different shades on the spectrum. There's. And there's a thousand different right ways to do it, but you can be a little bit more of a cowboy when you're running a crew of 15.

B (33:33)

Oh, yeah.

A (33:33)

You know, doing basements. But then when you're running hundreds of people on you Know, big commercial project, it doesn't work. And so you could have a different model in even today's world.

B (33:45)

Oh, sure.

A (33:45)

Just fine. Or like, from a people standpoint, if you're the guy on site every day, you can control the culture of the business, no problem. And you can control everything within the business, no problem. If you're running 15, 20, 25, maybe even up to 50 people, you can still get your hands around it. But then once it goes to hundreds of people, spread out, sometimes hours, that system does not at all work.

B (34:09)

Yep. It's back to the. What got us here won't get us where we need to. Where we need to go in the future. And it's not. It's not about values and mission. I mean, that can stay the same, but the, the vehicle you use to get there in pursuit of that vision and mission may need to change.

A (34:26)

Yeah. Which is. And that's where I believe we are, and that's why I'm excited. But at the same time, when I'm talking to these associations, I've been around long enough. I'm going on 31. I showed up here when I was 18, so I'm going on 12, 13 years of being around in the industry at this point. It's the same conversation in a lot of ways. Like, same. Same conversation that everybody's having about workforce that they were when I was starting out. And it's like, are we going to get on with the program here or not? But then I've. I've also realized I don't need to go sell this to everybody. I just need to hitch my wagon to people like you and to companies like yours that are already on the path, you're already on the. On the way, and I can just help you along further. Which then forces the rest of the world to catch up.

B (35:20)

Yeah. Eventually, reality will be evident to all. But we want to be one of the. We're certainly not an early adopter, but I certainly don't want to be the last guy. But it's certainly key. And I remember some years back, challenging our supervisor at a supervisors meeting that, you know, it's not just about, oh, if those folks in HR would just do a better job screening people and get us some real talent out here, life would be better. You know, point the finger at the office or if they'd pay more, if Keith wouldn't be so stingy, pay more, then we could get better people. And the list of things kind of went on, and I've seen a real shift over the last Five to seven years where there's a universal, more universal recognition that none of our competitors, nobody has it all together. And we've got to change our mindset and approach, and we've got to be training and developing and attracting and broadening that reach. And until that mindset shift happened, though, we were stuck in that rut of, well, if they would just do their job better or differently, we wouldn't have this problem here in the field versus how can I be part of the solution? And until you get. Until you get to rock bottom and say something's got to change, there's no. There's no hope.

A (36:40)

Yeah, but it. But it starts. And it goes back to starting with you, though. Like, I feel like you're ultimately the catalyst. At the end of the day, you can either help facilitate this or you can stop it dead, depending on your mindset. But every time I've seen a leader in the industry say, there has to be a better way and start on that journey, they're way better off. You know, years down the road now, which I've seen, they're way better off, and they're like, how was I even doing it before? Yeah, like, I would never go back to that way of doing things. But it's not. That's not to say it's easy. You also said there. There was some key turnover that had to happen within the company, which I think is one of the hardest things that I've worked through in business. Money problems, the weight of that just sucks. But having to part ways with people that have. They've done nothing wrong. They've got the business to where it is. They've maybe they've done really well along the way, but they're definitely not the ones to get it to that next level either. You know, that rooting that out of the organization, that's tough. And that I think is one of the biggest roadblocks for companies right now is there's loyalty. Like the word loyalty. Well, I'm loyal. They've been loyal to me. I'm loyal to them. Frank's been here for 33 years. We can't get rid of Frank. And there's value to that. But then Frank could be one of the guys in the way of getting the organization to that next level as well. And I have. I haven't seen a single company really start to transition to this new way of doing business. When it comes to people with retaining all of their same leaders.

B (38:20)

Yeah, it just. It's very, very, very unlikely. Anyways. I don't know, I've seen it. And the other thing is I have to change. Like the leader also has to, has to be changing. And you're either gonna change by force and bruises and bumps and there's always some piece of that, or you're gonna, you know, go out and seek it and put yourself in places where there's challenge and accountability and that can maybe minimize some of those bruises and bumps along the way.

A (38:45)

It doesn't avoid all of them though.

B (38:46)

Definitely not. Definitely not. No. I got lots of scar tissue and that's part of it. But my goal is to be humble enough to learn from it and make the wrong road a short one. And if we can do that. But back to this turning point with supervisors. And that was huge for us. And then about three years ago, it occurred to me that we really can't think of ourselves as a construction and excavation company anymore. So in the world's eyes, Brubacher Excavating is a construction utility, earthwork paving organization. We work from the fire hydrant on down. If it sticks up higher than that, we cut it off, blow it up or level it out. And that's what the world sees, what we really are. And what I've challenged our management team to think about is how would we invest our time, energy, money, resources differently if we thought of ourselves instead of first as a for profit training and development organization that just so happened to work with some amazing people, some awesome equipment, some powerful technology, and we build generational investments that benefit our communities for years to come. And I just have continued to double down on that and say we'll succeed at building stuff if we think of ourselves first and foremost as a for profit training development organization. And I'm not sure that fully sinks into me yet. But I keep challenging myself and my team with that mindset. I tell new hires that when they come in first day in orientation. So you think you joined a construction company? I have news for you. You didn't.

A (40:31)

Well, everybody says it that way. They say our people are the only differentiator. That's a very common thing. Is it practice? That's a different story. But even if you look at the nature of the work, you're, you're, you're, you're bidding. I mean, every once in a while there's a, you have a trick up your sleeve. I'm sure every once in a while, like maybe there's a, you've got a borrow pit down the road.

B (40:54)

That's your, that's your lucky day. Enjoy it.

A (40:55)

Yeah, something like that, but that, that's not, that's not a business strategy. That's, that's honestly, I mean sometimes it's strategy, but most of the time it's like, wow, we got lucky on that. And you can really blow something out and make some, make some good money. But you're building like you can't, you can't. Especially public work, okay. You go bid a public highway job, you can't go to the DOT or whatever it is county and say, you know what, I know you want this highway, but I think you actually want this highway.

B (41:26)

This is going to serve your purpose.

A (41:27)

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way.

B (41:30)

We have reason, painful lessons about yeah.

A (41:32)

And then, and then it's like, well, they want to build this way with this spec, but I actually think we could use this back. It's like, no, no, you build to the, the spec that everybody else builds to. You build the, this, you're building off the same plans that your, your arch nemesis bid the job with.

B (41:47)

Whether it works or not, that's what you're doing.

A (41:49)

Exactly. Yeah. And so like you can't really be all that differentiated. You can, but that's not the biggest point of differentiation because it can't be like math mat just on paper. You can't go create a better product. You can, you can maybe get a better way of getting there, but it's the same product. So then that brings you back to, well, is it your equipment that differentiates? You know, because everybody can buy the same stuff.

B (42:14)

Used to be, used to be.

A (42:17)

It used to be like if you were the one running GPS before other people. Sure. Potentially.

B (42:22)

It always normalizes.

A (42:23)

It's normal now and sometimes even like in the spec they want you to, hey, we want you to have this kind of technology which then like by process of elimination, people is the one resource within a construction company that's just totally open ended.

B (42:42)

Yeah. I think the corollary to that is yes, people are the difference from a business standpoint, but to me it's also the purpose. You know, and we've all heard business owners and I'll confess it to at times I've said, boy, if it weren't for employees and customers, business would be great. And every now and then I hear people saying, I've just made a vow, I'm not going to say that anymore. Because without people, what would be the purpose? And so our company mission is shaping the world we live in. And like I said, everybody looks at the surface and sees the dirt and the blasting and the land clearing and thinks, well, of course these people shape the world we live in. Well, that's the obvious part. The part that really interests me about that is the opportunity to shape the lives of the people with whom we interact with whom we employ, whom we work around, whom we work with, who we work for. And how am I shaping their lives in a way that's better and maybe even has some type of eternal impact. And to me that's where the purpose really gets meaningful. And so people are not only can be the differentiator and the part that fuels the profitability, they can also be the purpose and I believe should be.

A (43:49)

And I've heard that phrase a lot. Yeah, if it weren't for the, the people, this would be easy. But it's, it starts to, it's got me more and more frustrated as well. It's like it's disrespectful. It's like, well that, that's the whole game we're playing. Then don't play then, then leave.

B (44:05)

Yeah. And I realize people are motivated by different things. I just, I think it's short sighted and shallow to be, to be repeating that, that statement. And yes, I get it, there's moments of frustration. I frustrate people, people frustrate me. That's part of it. But we also know that iron sharpens iron and that's how we are learning about our own flaws and the ways we can relate better. And that's how we also have the opportunity to influence others. So I certainly don't get it right all the time. Maybe most of the time, but it's my goal and I'm going to keep working at it.

A (44:38)

I think that purpose is really big and it's not just within your people, but it's also the people you're serving in the community. I think we get so caught up in what we're building. We're building a road. It's like, no, we're not building a road. We're building the ability for people to get from point A to point B. Like we're building the ability to get, for people to get home. Like that's what, that's the problem we're solving for. We're not like the road is the means, but that's not the end game. That's not the purpose. It is just a piece of concrete and dirt and asphalt.

B (45:07)

Very material.

A (45:08)

Yeah. It doesn't mean anything. If it weren't for the people utilizing it to go create some kind of value in their Lives like to get to their families, to get to their job, to do what they do, to serve the community. Like that's a pretty big deal. That's a really big deal. And that's where I try to like even within construction companies I think that is lost, that sense of purpose is lost within the industry right now. And the people performing the work, especially like right now when it's really cold and miserable, you know, like you're not thinking about the purpose of your work. But I think it's, it's, that's a core part of a leader's responsibility now within this industry at any level is to continuously remind the people around them of what the purpose is. Like that and that, that's what I do here. That's what I was doing yesterday on our call. Like I need to be reminding everybody of the purpose at every opportunity possible because that's really like that's what's driving us. That's the whole reason we're here.

B (46:09)

Yeah. And the rest of the world and the rest of daily work experience tends to grind away at that. And I tend to think of whether it's that or leadership principles, I think in tangible terms. I think, well, if we have a bucket in the ground, it's going to be in doing its job, it's going to get worn away. And if we don't pay attention to it and put on ground engaging tools and hard surface it and whatever, it's going to eventually be worthless. And I think the same happens with people. We need to reinforce what gets worn away. We need to reinforce the things and the principles and the reminders and the purpose with what just the daily work in life wears away and that's one of leaders core responsibilities. I think you're spot on with that, Aaron.

A (46:50)

Yeah, well and I think again like from a workforce development standpoint, everybody looks outside and it's like no, no, it starts inside. Like I just think if we really effectively conveyed the purpose within the existing workforce and effectively cared for the existing workforce, that would solve any kind of people need well into the future. That alone like, and maybe that's like overly optimistic or naive. But I think there's so much opportunity within the existing workforce. Like you were saying, there's 40%, 40% referrals. Like that's a huge figure, that's a giant. That's, that's your number one recruiting pipeline is your existing people. Like that to me is the lowest hanging fruit because it not only makes your existing people more effective and productive, which then now you don't need as many people to begin with. Now you're turning over less people, which means you don't need as many people to begin with. Like you're solving for root problems as well. Now they're going out and they're proud and they're great members of their communities and other people want to be part of that. How can I be a part of that?

B (48:05)

I think it also increases the level of commitment to how do I help make this work? Whether it's the new hire that says, hey, what'd you do? Refer me to this brubach or excavating place. Do you know what just happened to me today? And they recount their challenging day. And sometimes helpful to have an experienced ear that says, yeah, I understand. Some days go like that. You know, you get the track run off the excavator down in the swamp at the bottom and the supervisor was upset because he didn't get the job done and you know, he had to stay late and help the mechanic. But there will be better days coming and I think that peer to peer is so valuable or they, hey, here's what I faced. Any advice on how I go about that? When there's a referral, there's more connection to help work through those things that inevitably come.

A (48:56)

Totally. So you personally, what have you had to work through?

B (49:03)

Oh, that's a long list. You didn't tell me this was going to be a therapy session. No, it's a long list. But I think number one, I needed to start off with what am I going to do? And one of the best gifts I ever received from my father isn't something that hangs on the wall or is not in a bank account. But was his clear and spoken statement that, Keith, whether you choose to join the business or do something different, know that I love you and that I will support your decision. And just that freedom to not feel like I was in this funnel. And I remember very clearly and there was a letter I wrote to him at one point, maybe about 19, 20 years old, where I very clearly said, I like the business. I don't know if I'll be an operator for life, a supervisor or someday present owner, but I'd like to continue on this pathway. So I know I made a conscious decision that I didn't just fall in the lucky gene pool, but I know I made a conscious decision. So I think that was the first thing is working through what I want to want to do. And then I shared too about the trying to be him rather than being me. I'm very different than my father. And so that was a piece of that. But then I think the real challenge was this, the impact of 2008. We were heavily invested in almost all of our work was residential subdivisions. We shifted some into commercial. And 2007, when 2008 came along, it fell apart and our revenues fell by half. Our employee count went from 400 to 218, I think was the low. We were working for a number of developers. One major developer went bankrupt, couldn't pay their bills. There were about three or four others. Lost a lot of value in the company. We didn't know what to do. And so here I am thinking I'm four years into this role as leading the business. We bought the business from my dad and I think I just screwed it up and might have just lost it. And so very, very challenging. Very dark times, personally, business wise.

A (51:26)

And you have a young family at this point too.

B (51:28)

Yes, two year old, four year old, two year old, six year old and eight year old. And like we talked at dinner last night, to my wife's credit, they're all doing well today, but there was some absentee years there where my body came home every night, but my mind was rarely there.

A (51:47)

Sure.

B (51:48)

And so working through that was a very defining time. And at the time, hated it. Don't ever want to live through it again. The bank, nobody ever told us to stop. I'm sure we were upside down, but we were kind of like the cartoons where they run off the cliff and the legs keep moving. That's kind of how it felt. Nobody told us to stop. So we kept going. And that's where the value of a board with independent directors really paid off for us. We had, we're like two or three years into a board with independent directors. One of the directors said, what do you know about Marcellus Shale? Said, well, we know it's four hours away from us and we don't do that work so well, you might want to look at it. It could hold some opportunity because about

A (52:35)

at that point for people to give some background, fracking started to become a big deal.

B (52:42)

Yep. 2008, 9. That was just taken off in northwestern Penn, northern Pennsylvania.

A (52:47)

Taken off in Pennsylvania, Texas, North Dakota, which was a total game changer in oil and gas.

B (52:54)

Yeah, it was like the Wild West.

A (52:56)

Yes.

B (52:56)

Yeah, it really was. So we started exploring that we want a public job at a university in northern Pennsylvania. And that kind of gave us an anchor point to start with people and equipment and a project and parlayed that into oil and gas. Really all gas work in the northern tier of Pennsylvania. And at one point, that was significant 25% of our revenue and helped us regain our footing and regain profitability and had some very, very nice years with

A (53:27)

that and that work, like pioneering roads, building pads, that kind of thing.

B (53:32)

Yep. Land clearing, some blasting, emergency work, snow removal. You know, it's not very often you get to build a million dollars worth of snow removal and not see a piece of pavement, but, well, pads in northern Pennsylvania and skidders pulling frack trucks up the road. So that whole time period, about three years, there was just a very difficult, dark time that I wrote a resignation letter during that time. I addressed it to God and said I resigned from my position as president of this company. That I'm doing my best to lead for your honor and your glory. And if you have a purpose for me in this, it's going to need to be all you, because I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do it, and I don't think I'm qualified and I'm not sure I even want to do it. So that was a very, very difficult, difficult time. But I am so thankful for it. What it taught me about who God is, my wife and my family and their love and support through some days I wasn't sure I even wanted to live. And what it taught me about the team around me and the business and skills that I needed to grow in. We wouldn't be where we're at today if it weren't for going through that valley. And so that was a very defining, very defining moment. Maybe not a moment. I guess it was a number of years, but really it was 2008 through 2011 was really that period of time rethinking, reframing, and starting to rebuild. Took us a while to rebuild from that bruising experience.

A (55:19)

It's the financial stuff, you know, it's something that I'll talk to people occasionally about in private. Very rarely have I ever seen it discussed in public for obvious reasons. You can't. That's the hard thing about it, especially when you're going through it. Like you can't say, yeah, the company is nearly.

B (55:40)

Yeah, well, I talk a little more freely about it now than I did 10, 15 years ago.

A (55:44)

Now you're. Now you're well past it. But the. I've been through. If you were to break it up into two periods of financial distress, and the first was quite a while, like 18 months, maybe two years. And that's. That's one of the things that people don't talk about is sometimes it's, it's years like it's a long period of time for a lot of people and just the weight of it is crushing. At least I think that was one of the lessons I learned from that first period was I put the, all the weight on me and it will clobber you and it will grind you down and it will leave nothing for anyone else. And the way, the way I explained it is like it was like a storm cloud following me everywhere. Even if it was a sunny day.

B (56:39)

I wasn't seeing like Eeyore in the cartoons.

A (56:41)

Yeah, I was like Eeyore, yeah, it was raining no matter where I was. It was, yeah, I didn't see the sun for, for, for this period of two years. And, and then it in some ways becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as well. And you, sometimes it becomes then self inflicted because you're prolonging this, this pain and suffering. But it's brutal. And then more recently, not super recently, but recent enough, it was like maybe a you know, eight month period. I was talking to you about, yeah, you know about it at dinner. But I, I, it was not, I don't, I never want to do it again. Like I've, I've got it. Like I don't need to do it again. But I, I did approach it a little bit differently in the fact that like, listen, ultimately this ain't up to me. I'm going to do my best. That's what I can do.

B (57:30)

And it's not about not caring. It's really about releasing yourself to do what only you can do.

A (57:36)

Which, but then that made me so much more effective and gave me something to then give to people around me and get us to now where we are, which is the best place we've ever been in as a business. But I had to lean on others. I, I couldn't take the burden on myself to get to where, where I am now. And that, that's like the key differentiator. I put it all on myself that first time around and there was, there's a price to pay for that.

B (58:06)

And it's dark and it's really rooted in, you know, for, for me I think it was rooted in pride of this is what I got to do. I got to preserve the family legacy. I don't want to screw this up and I didn't want to see bad things happen to our people. I knew I had a place to live and I say this now, I guess that's the other Challenge I give myself is how many people are deprived from help and encouragement because we don't have the openness to talk about it in the time of. And I had a good support network, family board, a prayer team, close friends. But boy, the courage to talk about at the time. But I mean it was to the point I put my. Bought a truck, diesel truck and put in my wife's name in case I needed to start over, the skid loader. And that's where my mind was. And at the time I'm still going to work and doing everything that needs to happen to project hope and courage and inspiration to the team. But that ability to talk about it real time, you're right. There's concerns about what if the word gets out? What if people think it's worse than it is? Just this whole thing. And then we tend to bear so much of that ourselves. And it becomes very lonely and can be dark and unfortunately can be deadly.

A (59:30)

It can be and it is a lot of times now. You went through another crazy period that was 2020. Oh yes, because Pennsylvania, it was one of like the three states in America that just shut construction down. I think Pennsylvania, Washington, we had like

B (59:50)

five people working for a utility company with letters in their truck proving they were allowed to be on the road.

A (59:56)

Yeah.

B (59:57)

And that wasn't enough, you know, that wasn't enough to keep the lights on.

A (60:00)

Yeah. The PA governor in their infinite wisdom judged that construction was non essential in the state. Which then. So how quickly did you have to. How quickly did that happen?

B (60:13)

Yeah, well, that was a Con Expo I'll never forget. A couple of us were at Conexpo right before that and we're getting ready to come back to work. And the folks in the office were getting kind of anxious about we're with 100,000 people and you're going to come back to the office. We don't think you should do that. So came back from Con Expo, work from home, kind of quarantine a bit. So it wouldn't make, you know, anybody anxious or people that were dealing with health issues. You know, we're there potentially bringing Covid back from this super spreader event.

A (60:43)

Well, yeah, that was like the last event like that Monday versus that Friday. That was a different world within those few days.

B (60:52)

Were packing up. Some people weren't there. It was wild.

A (60:55)

Wild.

B (60:56)

So we went back and a couple of us were there. Never actually went back to the office. Worked remote. Well then the governor shut the state down. I think it was a Wednesday or so said non essential Business has got to be shut down. We're trying to figure out, I guess it looked like we're non essential. So I was on a zoom call with my management team. I think it ended nine o' clock on a, on a night. We were sorting that because it just kept changing. We were trying to keep up with what's actually permitted, what's not. How do we interpret this?

A (61:30)

Yeah, because.

B (61:31)

And we said we gotta, yeah, so we gotta shut the company down. There's, we can't work. What do we do? So we agreed to do that. Friday was a button up day, button up job sites and basically laid the whole company off. 300 and some 280, 300 some people and said, well now what do we do? I called up my banker and said I think I just broke all the covenants that says you have to stay in business, you need to continue operating. He said don't worry, the whole world's going through this. We won't throw you out the door. Just keep in communications. Like well, that's a big relief. But we still don't have any revenue generating capacity and our line of credit is only so big and our people need some way to live. And so we were shut down pretty well completely for about two weeks and just crimped, cut every expense we could. We didn't know if this was going to last for months or for how long and so we took pretty stiff measures to try and conserve.

A (62:38)

But why did you have to shut down?

B (62:40)

Was it like the governor, it was illegal?

A (62:43)

Yeah.

B (62:43)

So yeah, we were deemed non essential and we actually applied for waivers and got waivers to operate. I wrote letters about how our work is essential and examples of that. I got waivers from the state that said we could operate and we had developers and builders saying we're not so sure that that's going to fly. We don't want to take the risk. So even though you have this waiver says you can work, we're not going to let you work on our project because we don't want bad stuff to happen to us in case somebody sees it differently.

A (63:16)

Wow.

B (63:17)

And then they rescinded the waivers. So it was a topsy turvy couple weeks and then we started getting back to work. That was what, late March, Mid March, May we were getting back to work. Things were loosening up a little bit. But I hated being the, you know, guys driving down the road supposed to all be wearing masks in a crew cab. And you see them, they don't. And just what a. Who wants to be the COVID Police. Sure, it was a very, very awkward

A (63:48)

spot to be in, but yeah, you're being threatened to get shut down again. It's like, listen, we now got jobs and they're making us abide by these rules and if we don't abide by the rules, we're going to get shut down again. I'm going to be laying people off again.

B (64:01)

Yeah, It's a catch 22. So that was May. We had most everybody back. We did lay off some people long term and not knowing how long people would go until they started new projects by July we were short 50 people.

A (64:19)

It just snapped the other way.

B (64:20)

Came back out the other side, roaring like crazy. And we were. So we went from laying off the whole company to three months later, we were short 50 people.

A (64:30)

I've seen we made it. Well and I, I saw that play out with a few contractors. I mean even, even contractors in states that were full bore. They were working for, you know, a select few developers or residential companies that just stopped all their projects like one day. Hey. Just locked the gate essentially. And then three months later it's like, shoot, we need actually like twice the amount of houses.

B (64:55)

Yeah.

A (64:55)

So can you go hire all your workforce back and then some and then pick up even more work than you had previously? It's just like within the matter of months. It's insane.

B (65:08)

And a fair number of people left the industry in the meantime. Some retired, said, this is my sign, it's time to retire. But we made it through that and actually we were profitable all through it. Just certainly not to the extent we would have anticipated. Sure. Oh, and very grateful that it's been some strong years since then because then

A (65:28)

at that point, that's when like residential has been very strong since then because of all. Especially like in an area like yours, a lot of people moving out the Cities.

B (65:39)

Yep.

A (65:39)

Philly, D.C. yep.

B (65:41)

Coming out in those kind of halo counties.

A (65:43)

Yeah. Moving, moving out and then into other state like Tennessee has been a huge beneficiary of that. And then fulfillment warehouses was another just booming market. They couldn't put up warehouses fast enough,

B (65:58)

which now we were impacted by that as well in our region.

A (66:01)

Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, I knew. Yeah, there were warehouses all over and

B (66:04)

there's a lot of utility work. You know, we live in an old part of the country where there's a lot of old utility lines and so there's a lot going on there in the utility world, which has been. Been very strong.

A (66:15)

Yeah. That's insane. That's just, it's so crazy. And it's not even that long ago.

B (66:21)

It seems like a bad dream I'm, I woke up from. And I'm thinking that happened or was that a bad dream? And unfortunately it happened. And I hope we don't have to live through that. Through that again.

A (66:32)

Yeah, yeah. I hope no one has, but. Yeah, that I don't think a lot of people understand how hard. Pennsylvanian Washington. I feel like there was one more that just got walloped by the governor that just no construction. Sorry, can't do it. And same with contractors.

B (66:50)

We said we're outside. I mean these letters I wrote for waivers. We're outside, we're dispersed. Yeah.

A (66:56)

It's already social distance.

B (66:57)

How. This is it. Yeah, yeah.

A (66:58)

The whole industry is already socially distanced and working remote.

B (67:01)

Like that's.

A (67:02)

Everybody's in a cab, everybody's in a machine.

B (67:05)

Yeah. There's very, very few times you're, you're up close to somebody and you can mitigate that. So sure it was. Yeah, one of those things. Give stories to tell about. And I think too we talk about the challenges in business. I don't want to minimize or overlook the people that had loved ones in retirement or continuing care communities. They couldn't visit them, they passed away. They didn't get to meet them because they were waving through the window. People that had various health challenges that succumbed to the virus. I don't ever want to minimize that in light of the business challenges we faced and we had a chance to recover from that. But there's, you know, and even family relationships that are broken or strained to this day because of how people came out on. Well, you should or shouldn't wear a mask. You should or shouldn't believe the CDC and just there's a lot of long term damage in relationships and our business challenges pale in comparison that.

A (68:03)

But your business challenges affected at the time hundreds of families, you know, and it did. You know, your health starts to not be as important when you can't pay the mortgage, you know, and when you start to realize like, like financial trouble is pretty core to the human state of affairs nowadays. And when you're worrying about how to

B (68:26)

pay the mortgage, it has a big

A (68:27)

impact that, that, that can kill you just as quickly as anything else can or, you know, divorce or whatever it is Dave Ramsey is talking about all the time, how number one cause of divorce is finances.

B (68:38)

It absolutely is.

A (68:40)

And business pays people's bills like that. That's how the United States of America works. Unless you're one of the many federal government employees nowadays but, but unless you can just print indefinite money. But business doesn't work that way. So it is. And it's, it's like, I'm not asking about it from your perspective, like, so, Keith, how hard was it for you? It's like, well, but, but bearing that weight of, you know, I don't have. I'm fine. I can feed myself and my family. But I've got hundreds of families that are counting on.

B (69:14)

Yeah. And they're wondering what to do. And hey, I heard this. Hey, I have this link. You know, I think we're okay if we use this loophole and just, you know, people trying to do their best to help. How do you manage this massive risk with so many different layers to it for so many different people?

A (69:29)

It's complex.

B (69:30)

Yeah, that was another. Yeah, that was definitely another defining moment for a lesson I didn't know I needed to learn.

A (69:35)

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you now, what do you see as the opportunities going forward? Like, what are you excited about right now?

B (69:47)

I'm most excited about the opportunity to continue having an impact in the lives of people. And that, that is, that is overarching from my viewpoint. I used to get really fascinated with equipment. I very fascinated with equipment. But it's more about the people and the leadership. And I think we have a tremendous opportunity. And many times, I think the workplace often in construction is the first, maybe the first time that someone has an opportunity to have a good relationship with someone in authority, depending upon their background, what their life experiences are. Can we be that place that provides them the opportunity to have a positive interaction with someone in authority over them who cares about their development at work and even beyond. So that's number one. I see opportunities there. I see opportunities in utilities. I think Americans, we will or won't build stuff based on interest rates and private equities, investment and Wall street and all of those dynamics. Many smart people can figure those drivers out. But I think there are a lot of things that Americans will put up with before they turn the tap and no water comes, or there's dirty water running down the curb going into the clean stream, or we flip the light switch and nothing comes on. So I think there's a lot of opportunity. In the utilities area. It tends to be less weather sensitive work than trying to fine grade a few inches of topsoil and tends to be less weather sensitive for frost in our area in the north. So that's an area that I'm, that I see a lot of opportunity. And the other thing I see is increasing levels of pipe and utility work per dollar or investment piece in, in dirt and paving.

A (71:44)

Yeah.

B (71:45)

And I think it's driven by the design and space constraints, at least in our part of the country where we're seeing the pipe crew percentage of projects continue to increase as a percent of the project as a whole. And that's more labor intensive than a guy hogging dirt on A395 and a fleet of RTX when you have a lot more pipe work going on. So I think that's going to be a challenge and an opportunity all in one for staffing those crews to perform that more intensive utility work underground stormwater basins and pits and just more and more complexity that we see underground.

A (72:28)

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's only going in one direction, but it's only more and more needed. And the, I mean, I'm sure some of the stuff, if you guys are replacing or I know you're lining stuff now, that's old. Like, some of that is old and it's well past its design.

B (72:48)

Oh, when you look inside of some of those pipes, it's really not very appetizing. You're glad. No, I think if people knew what they were drinking that went through that pipe, I'm not sure they'd be too excited about it. So. Doing a lot of, a lot of utility upgrades.

A (73:01)

Yeah. And I think that's, that's one of like the core opportunities I see is utilities. But they're, I mean, even like we're talking New York I just saw the other day said, no more data centers. We don't have the power, we don't have the water. That's a problem.

B (73:18)

Interesting. I hadn't seen that yet.

A (73:20)

Yeah. New York just said, no, can't do it. Virginia's already said, nope, can't do it. I think Georgia said, nope, can't do it. Like a lot of states have now said, listen, we can't, we can't accommodate anymore. While you have these companies saying, yeah, we'll spend tens of billions of dollars. The states can't even accommodate tens of billions of dollars of private investment right now because they don't have the water and they don't have the power. Which is crazy that that's where we are right now. But that's, that's the opportunity. That's just on the new demand side. But again, everybody's still glossing over the whole fact that our power grid is old, our water system is old. It's. Our water system is actually a little bit better. In a lot of cases it's been improving. It's been improving. But district water distribution is very old. If I'm sure a lot of money has been spent on treatment plants and that process. But distribution, how long have those pipes been in the street? Sewer. There's been a lot of money spent on sewer from environmental. But again, the network itself, still a

B (74:21)

lot of combined sewer and storm sewer overflows into rivers. That is just unconscionable to think that we're still allowing that.

A (74:29)

Yeah, yeah. And so, and I get more and more nervous too because we're, we're, we've never spent more money on infrastructure, quote unquote, and have gotten less for it than ever, which I don't think is a good trend either. Like the one I pointed out recently was the Francis Scott Key Bridge. So the original estimate like a year ago is like, Yeah, I think 1.5 billion. You're like, okay, I mean 1.5 billion, like that's not cheap for two lanes either way across the bay.

B (75:04)

But is a big bridge.

A (75:05)

It's a big bridge. Yeah. Okay, so like one, that, that sounds fair. And then they come out now, they're like, ah, we think it's going to be like 5 billion. It's like, what, where'd the other like 3 something billion come from? How does something like that cost $5 billion? Like where does the money go? Where, how does that. It's design, build. I thought it was supposed to be cheaper. I thought it was supposed to go the other direction because the contractor is supposed to come up with better ways to build it. That's more cut. It's like there's a, the Amtrak tunnel project in Manhattan right now. It's, it's like a mile and something and tunnels and there's a bunch of other stuff to it, but it's like $15 billion for a mile and change of tunnel crazy under the water part of it.

B (75:54)

Yes. It's a complex like that. I get there's utilities, it's complex, et cetera. But it's, I just think so much of it is, it comes back to where we're talking about earlier. There's trust or lack thereof, everybody looking over top of each other. Like our whole. If you think about, I think so much of the construction industry is built around distrust.

A (76:14)

Yeah.

B (76:15)

Who's, who's going to screw me and what do I need to put in place to make sure that doesn't happen? And I think that the higher you go up in government and in bureaucracy, the more layers of that come in. And unfortunately, it's there because we're dealing with fallen human nature. And sometimes there are bad actors that do bad stuff. And so you set up another system to prevent that. And every layer necessary as it feels at the time adds complexity and redundancy, and that builds cost. And I think that's got to be a part of it somewhere, which.

A (76:53)

And I understand protecting yourself, but you don't have to go play the game as well. Like, I see contractors that are just. They're in litigation all the time, and it's like you're looking for it. Like, you don't have to be in litigation all the time. I know a lot of contractors that aren't in litigation all the time. Like, I feel like some. They get caught up in that a little bit too much, and it's like, no, don't.

B (77:16)

The strategy is. It's a profit strategy versus a risk mitigation strategy.

A (77:20)

Yeah, well, that or it's sometimes ego, like, no, screw these guys. They screwed me. I'm gonna screw them back. And then three and a half years later and however many millions or tens of millions in legal fees, like, maybe you win, but at what cost?

B (77:36)

I have no desire. Try to keep our nose out of that as much as we can. Every now and then you get in a legal tangle, but everyone's just not. That's just not how. That's just not how. I have interest in running business.

A (77:47)

No, but. Which I think is good business. But I don't know what the solution is to all that. It's just, I think the. To what? Going back to a pipe crew or a construction company. I think we have to be more efficient and effective. I think we have to do more. We have to do more. We have to get more efficient. And that. Because that's the only way. Like, regardless of whatever the government's doing, materials companies, whatever it is, I don't think a construction company can adequately develop its people without a certain degree of profit. It's. It's by no accident that the best companies are also. They're healthy from a profit standpoint because you need those dollars to reinvest in your workforce. That's the only way it works. Which then gets you more profitability. But you have to. You have to go first. Like, it has to lead the. Whatever you. The. The return you get. And so I think that's just a key part of it. And I think what. Wages have to go up as well. And you're. You're subject to the market. But if you Start to do the math on wages in the construction industry. On average, it's not that good of a deal anymore. And that's what like, like your generation, the bill of goods was, listen, you're going to go work really hard, you're going to go work long hours, you're going to sometimes be miserable, but you're going to get paid and you're going to be able to buy yourself a nice house, you're going to have a nice family. It's going to be a really good, it's going to be a good way of life, Great way of life. Now for like your son, 19 years old, coming up on 20, the wages that he's able to earn are not all that different. It's a little bit different adjusted for inflation. And it's grown, you know, maybe a point, two points, three points a year at best. So it's a little bit better. But then a house costs five times as much. So it's like, okay, I'm making a little bit more money. I can't even think about getting a house. So what do I do? Like, and this isn't that good of a deal for me, so why. And for this amount of money, I could make a little less over here, but drive to the same place every day. I don't have an hour commute. I don't have to work Saturdays. I don't have to work weekends, whatever.

B (80:08)

Like, I'm out in the weather.

A (80:09)

I'm not out in the weather. Like, I'm not willing to steady.

B (80:12)

I don't have to, you know, if the inspector doesn't pass the water line, I don't, you know, what do I do for the day?

A (80:16)

Yeah, correct.

B (80:17)

Yeah. I think one of the most poignant moments for me was a number of years ago, this may be four years ago, we were visiting a utility crew and there was a yard sign in the yard behind where they were working said, you know, advertising for warehouse workers, $24 an hour. And I'm thinking, yeah, this is screwed up. Some of these guys aren't making any more than that. And if they were brand new, maybe less than that. But that's guaranteed 40 hours a week as long as people are point and click. Buy this now, add it to my cart. It's defined commute and it's inside. But that has changed. Even those four years, that has changed for us. Sure, that has absolutely changed some of our pay scales. But we also attract, we see a lot of people coming out of those places. Even though all of those perceived advantages they Say I felt like I was dying inside, which is true, I wanted to get outside. But that's not everybody. And you're right, there's economic realities that trump what you want to do. You do what you need to do to support your bills and your lifestyle.

A (81:22)

Correct? Like, yeah, ultimately everybody would have this great sense of purpose at work. But that doesn't, like, that doesn't trump mortgage payments, family commitments, that kind of thing. That's the clear priority. And if I, like I have to prioritize that over anything else, in theory I could be doing, you know, whatever gives me a great sense of purpose, which makes me money, which then allows me to care for my family, which then gives me more to care for my family with. Like that's the ideal scenario. But that's right now. It's just not always the case. And I think like again, I can sit here and point to like all these regulatory issues which aren't going to change, unfortunately. Instead it's within a construction company. How can we get more efficient, effective to make more money and get everybody on board with that as a part of that? And I think that's all rooted in people. Like some of it's in methodology, some of it's in equipment, some of it's in technology, but not really. Like I don't, the most profitable companies I see, they don't necessarily have the fanciest fleet of iron. They don't have the most technology, they're just the most effective and their people are tight knit.

B (82:33)

And I think a lot of it starts upstream with that trust, communication, planning. I think as FMI says, many times 40% of time in construction is recoverable lost time. So if you work a 10 hour day, four hours of that is some type of recoverable lost time. And your way of influencing that is planning up front? Well, the planning only works as well as your people work together. There's trust, there's communication and machines don't plan. Technology is a tool, but it doesn't plan. You need people that are doing the right thing in the right way at the right time to plan and communicate to impact that recoverable lost time. And that is hard. We are not there, but we're working hard at it.

A (83:20)

But that's the fun thing is I don't think you ever get there.

B (83:23)

No, with people it's an ongoing journey and it obviously works because 25 years, 30 years ago, we'd buy a rock drill for $285,000 and you'd pay the operator, I don't know, $12 an hour at the time and you got paid more per unit of rock than we get paid today. Even though the cost of the drill tripled and the wages tripled. So where did that come from? It had to come out of a large part efficiency and gains there to some extent. Maybe less margins. Sure.

A (83:58)

What are you doing from a tactical standpoint when it comes to people and training and development?

B (84:04)

So we have a trainer role which is very field and trade focused that does some classroom type orientation, small group and then also does some small group in the field and some one on one coaching in the field. So that's very trade focused on training and development for technical skills out in the field. So we have that role. Then we have a manager of people in development that really comes alongside of. I think of him like a guidance counselor in the workplace. So he'll come alongside and try and sort out where someone's most likely to be successful, what role. I think their personality is going to work best with this crew and come alongside even some supervisors in modeling and coaching and then following up with conversations, performance conversations, developmental conversations. We don't want to do it for that supervisor, but it's a way to help model and elevate the supervisor's capacity. And then he oversees all of the performance management process that we go about and he's involved in recruiting. So it's really all things people. But the goal is to not subcontract anything people related just to that guy. His job is the equipper, the guidance counselor, the career pathway guide. And that's been very, very effective to have someone in that role that can see across all of the different organizations, parts of the organization and even the different businesses that we operate.

A (85:39)

How'd you find these people?

B (85:42)

They came up through, came up through the ranks. So they were internal people before internal. Our trainer role is vacant right now. We're actually recruiting for that for that role. But that too was an internal, was an internal promote. We've had a trainer role most not every year, but most every year since 2007 or eight we've had someone in that role. And then we use a rightnow media platform for access for all of our team members with various resources, videos, leadership development, parenting, life, money, Dave Ramsey's stuff, you name it. And we have the ability to post our own video content to that as well. So we have some of our own video content for GPS training, a variety of other things that we post and that gives them access to. They're going there for work. How do I improve my Career, then they also have that window into, well, here's all the other ways in life that these resources might be helpful. So that's a tactical piece. We do training in the off season, training in the season, training on sunny days. That was a big hurdle. Oh, we only train when it's snowed outside or it's the hurricane came through and we're washed out for three days. It was a huge shift to get to where we train because it's important and this type of training, certain types don't happen well in the field. So you have a classroom training, boy, that's tough to do that on a sunny day rather than say let's go work. Yes, we're still going to work, but we're going to be a little short. And then other people have a chance to step up to fill that role while John's in training today. So those are just a few things. We had an operator certification program. We have a lot of material around that with information that help people understand what they need to about key responsibilities for various different roles and equipment operating responsibilities. So it's a, it's a lot of different pieces that come together. There's no one big thing.

A (87:47)

No, no. And I've again, I've never seen it. I've never seen one big thing. I've seen a bunch of small things and it was probably like one thing to start or two things to start and then you like when, when do you start? You said you had, you've had an equipment trainer since 2008.

B (88:02)

I think it was 2000, 2006 or 7. Somewhere in that range. Right?

A (88:07)

Yeah.

B (88:07)

And then there was a couple years there in those lean years we didn't have a full time role and then got put a senior supervisor in that role. So I'd say 80% of the last of the last 20, some 28 years.

A (88:20)

Yeah. But to illustrate, I mean it's been a, you've been on a journey for a very long time now and this is, I think people struggle a little bit. I even have to remind myself of like, you know, even I read a book recently. I reread it, Shoe Dog, great book. And the ghostwriter he had write it is just brilliant with how they laid out. And so it's a fun read. Like it's a really enjoyable read. It's an incredible story. But it's largely about them being broke for 15 years as Nike Phil Knight and it's like, oh, okay, so it takes like 15 years. Got it.

B (89:00)

Little things compound, you know, whether it's in business or life, one or two degree change made early can have huge ramifications down the road.

A (89:10)

Yeah.

B (89:10)

And that's, that's really where we're not, we're certainly not arrived. But yeah, we've been working. I've just, I've always been about training and people and safety and so it's a. As long as I've had influence, we've been pushing that direction.

A (89:23)

Where do you, where do you spend most of your time nowadays?

B (89:27)

Varies. Too much of it in the office. That's the challenge. I get. Get sucked in there a little too easily. But I'm there for every orientation unless I'm out of town like this. Meet the new hires, share a bit about our values and vision and what that looks like and how to deal with things that go wrong. How frequently is orientation typically? Every week we have, I'd say 45 out of 52 weeks. We have anywhere from one to a few people in that. So that's Mondays is always at the office. I try and get out in the field in the main season. A day, sometimes two days a week. Over winter there's not as much going on. Very busy administrative and planning and year end meetings and all of that. Keep me in the office a little more over winter. But I'm not out running jobs. I'm out there when I'm out. It's encouraging. Challenging really. Half my job is to comfort the afflicted, be encouraging, provide presence and the other half is to afflict the comfortable. What do we need to dislodge? Where do we need to create discomfort because we can be better than this. But then working through the people that are responsible for that. So that's a big part to try and spend a day in the life of different types of roles. A couple times a year sitting beside a lowboy driver, going along with a mechanic, handing him tools and wiping grease off. Whatever. Whatever I can do. Try to spend a day in the life of different people at different roles.

A (91:02)

That'll be a few times a year.

B (91:03)

Yeah.

A (91:04)

Where you'll spend a day with like a lowboy driver in the passenger seat.

B (91:07)

Yep. Help him chain and unchain and chat and just, you know, see the jerk that pulls over in front of him and he's got to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting him. And just a day in the life of somebody else's shoes. And in some in the office usually that's more a half a day than a full day.

A (91:25)

Yeah. What on going back to onboarding, what do you tell people when it, when it comes to, like you're briefing a group, I don't know, what is it like usually 10 people, 15 people?

B (91:37)

Oh, it's usually smaller than that. Usually three. Three to five.

A (91:40)

Three to five.

B (91:41)

Sometimes as few as one.

A (91:43)

So what do you tell them about when things go wrong?

B (91:46)

Well, I think it should be a law that you don't just talk about your wonderful benefits and how great this company is. But we never hired anybody perfect, and they sure aren't coming to work for a perfect company and say so now we got that out of the way. It's a matter of time. We hope it's a long time out there. We hope it's small and it's not something that happens repeatedly, but it's a matter of time till one of us is going to let the other person down. We're going to screw up, we're going to. We're going to miss something. We're going to do something we shouldn't have done. And so how are we going to really. And then I tell a story or two. I don't have any PowerPoints. People will already be plenty of them there in the rest of the orientation. And I tell a story about one of the biggest mistakes we made as a company and how the people involved handled it. Nobody lost their job but what they did. And then I distill out of that three things. Whether it's them that screw up or whether we let them down as an organization, if we practice these three behaviors, we'll be able to get through it successfully. Own up right away. Don't spend time pointing fingers or. Well, Aaron was really 90% of it. I was only 10, so I think I'm okay. Just. Did I contribute to this? Own up right away. How can I help make it right? And if you're not sure, ask. And this is often the hardest for folks. Can I be humble enough to let others learn from what just happened? We want nobody else to know about it, especially when it comes back to safety with near miss reporting. Am I humble enough to let other people learn from what just happened to me or my crew or almost happened? And if we can do those three things, it doesn't take away the consequences. But it's a different range of consequences than when we have people that brush stuff under the rug, point fingers. Oh, that's part of the company, makes plenty of money. I'll just go on my merry way and wash their hands of whatever the outcome is.

A (93:44)

But it takes, it takes the right culture to even facilitate that because I Try to. I can tell when someone's been in the field or not by how they even talk about near misses and stop work. Because it's like 18 year old Aaron. When I was on a job site I wasn't, for lack of better term, I wasn't reporting shit. No way, dude. Like one, I didn't even know what to report.

B (94:08)

Yeah.

A (94:08)

I didn't even know what a near miss was. I didn't even know what I was looking for. Two, because I remember I got one time like one of the first safety lessons I got was the. It was, it was, it was a. We were doing maybe 48 inch storm. So pretty. And it was pretty wide trench. Yeah. Pipe pretty, pretty deep. Maybe, I don't know, 15ft. So pretty good depth. And we had, you know, double stack trench box sitting there and we had the material kind of at a slope down to the last piece, last joint that was, that was laid.

B (94:43)

I can picture it.

A (94:44)

And every once in a while some guy would just walk down instead of going down the ladder to throw something in the trench, this and that. So I saw that and I was like, cool, they need something quick. Ran right down to give them some soap or gasket or shovel or something like that. And then I came back up and the foreman just ripped my ass. I mean absolutely. I know who he is. He's great, great guy. I've seen him. I've seen him actually recently, but he just ripped my ass for that one. But I didn't even know.

B (95:15)

You saw somebody else model it.

A (95:17)

Exactly. Do.

B (95:19)

And you weren't going to say hey Joe, you shouldn't do that. And he's a 30 year veteran.

A (95:24)

Yeah, correct. Yeah. But like that point was like I didn't even know what trench protection was. I had no idea. I didn't even know. And so when people are like, well how stupid could they be being in that trench? Like maybe they don't know. That's a, like maybe they just don't know. I don't know.

B (95:40)

I think that's also failure on the organization because we used to get caught up in, well, let's see if they hang around long and then we'll run through trenching, orientation, entrenching, safety.

A (95:50)

Yeah.

B (95:50)

And I think you got to do some of that right up front. You do?

A (95:55)

Yes. Because you can't assume that people know. You don't know what people know. You just don't know.

B (96:00)

Just because you told them doesn't mean you're going to remember. Not because people are stupid, but because they're overwhelmed. We dump all this stuff in a thorough orientation. Like you're not. That's the other thing I mentioned. You're not going to remember most of what we say, but you're going to meet some great people and you're going to know how to get answers and you're going to learn a couple principles.

A (96:18)

Sure.

B (96:19)

And number one, and I talk about safety. And the reason that it's important to us is because you have a life purpose. And we don't want to cut it short before you get a chance to discover and live it out. And it's a company full of helpful people. And there's no question that's stupid. You know, you shouldn't ask unless it's the 10th time that day. We might get a little impatient and just focus on those principles because you're right. Most people that are new to the industry or even new to a company don't want to make waves.

A (96:48)

No, no. And that, and that's, that's my next point. It's like, even if I know what was looking, I mean, I went through quite a few different companies, man. Like, I was like one of my nick. When I was on the railroad, my nickname was Snowball because I was just this. I was just this little white kid out there as white as can be. You know, my skin, I don't. I don't tan at all. And we're sitting out in the sun every day, and so everybody else is tan. Big beards. And I mean everybody on the railroad. Big beard, big handlebar mustache. Big mustache. And then there's me out there, you know, leading the safety meeting. Oh, hey, guys, we're going to do stretch and flex today. And I wasn't, I wasn't stopping anything, like, and that's, that's not like, oh, you're a bad person. This and that. And I can't recall, like, a specific example, but I was not going out of my way to stop work because I was like, listen, I'm already so far out of the element here. I'm already like, I am fighting every day just to blend in, and I'm not doing a very good job. I'm not about to go tell them, guys, we need to stop because this isn't safe. Like, it just wasn't that environment. Ideally it would have been, but it was. It would just wasn't that place. And I didn't have the even. I didn't even like from a leadership standpoint at that point. I had no leadership training, and I only got leadership training Once I started a company and started to train myself, frankly. So at that point, I didn't even have the confidence. Even if I knew something was wrong and even if I wanted to stop, did I have the confidence to even say something? Probably not.

B (98:29)

Very few people do. And this is not original with me, but I heard somebody talk about stop work authority as taking five, and I like that a lot better. I started using that terminology that it just. It feels a little bit less like a hurdle to cross. Whether it's five seconds, let's make sure that hook's still hooked and it didn't come halfway undone. If it's five minutes, let's double check. Let's go get the safety glasses or safety shield. Sometimes it's five hours, sometimes it's five days. We've had jobs that we noticed something, and five months later, you come back with a redesign, and now you do the work, but just, hey, let's take five. And I think we could benefit as an industry from more of that mindset, and maybe that barrier you described that you experienced and many people do would be a little bit less of a hurdle.

A (99:16)

Yeah. And I think 100%, it's a much more palatable way. Can we just take five minutes here to think about it instead of stop work authority? I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be like, I

B (99:28)

think it takes some of that away. I just wish I remembered who it was. Give him credit.

A (99:31)

Yeah. But take five is a common term, like, in Australia. Australia. That's what they. They say. That's what their JHA is. It's a take five. And so that's. Their whole premise is, hey, let's just take five to think about what we're about to do. What are the hazards? How are we going to mitigate them? It's, It's. It's their jha. So I've heard that term a lot. It's just applied a little bit differently. But that, that. All of that is to illustrate, like, the complexities of this. Like, it's not as simple as a. As a procedure. It's not as simple as saying, this is the company rule. Like, that doesn't mean anything if it's not. If it's not part of the culture. If you don't have the leadership, if you don't have the training, if you don't have the skill sets required to even make that a reality. It's, It's. It's. It's worthless. It's. It's. It's Not. It's not at all valuable. And that's where it's like. Safety, I think, is a lot less about enforcing things and more about leadership, communication, training and development, care. Then here's the rules. Follow them or you're fired.

B (100:32)

And stories, I think stories go a long way. Stories, stories, transparency, really compound the things that you just mentioned that make it different. And let's be real. A lot of people in construction that are out in the trades in the field are there because they did not want to sit having a lecture about the finer points of point two, a sub point three.

A (100:55)

Yeah.

B (100:57)

They got into construction because they wanted to see tangible results. They didn't want to be stuck in a classroom or an office somewhere, as noble as those professions are. And then we bring them in and say, well, we're going to. The method we use to teach you about safety and training and all these other things you need to know is going to look like what you just tried to avoid. And I challenge our team with that. We don't always do as good a job as I think think we could as an industry or even as a company in delivering the messages in ways that the people want and can receive it most effectively.

A (101:31)

Yeah.

B (101:31)

Is that putting ourselves in the shoes of the receiver?

A (101:35)

The story is really effective. And I mean, the best safety lessons I've learned, typically it's from a horrifying story, typically are the ones that I've. That have stuck with me my entire career. And I really respect and appreciate companies that have shared stories, stuff that's gone wrong online. I've seen that even recently, maybe six months ago, I shared a video. It was an articulated truck with some logs or something.

B (102:01)

Oh, I saw that. Yeah.

A (102:02)

And it was driving by this bank and the thing, the bank just gives way and it goes right into the water looking. Holy smokes. I mean, easily, the guy could have drowned or whatever it was. Fortunately, he was able to get out and swim away. And then they post, like, somehow the guy was filming with a drone. You know, somehow they caught it all on video one, and then two, they put it on the Internet and they said, like, listen, not ideal. We thought this was completely safe. This happened. Here's what we've learned as a result. And we're publishing it because we think there's value in sharing it with others. And it's like, I have nothing but respect for that.

B (102:42)

Yeah, that takes guts. Because you know, there's somewhere an insurance underwriter, it's out there doing AI empowered search on that company's name to See whether or not they want to quote the renewal two years from now.

A (102:53)

Exactly. Well, that. Yeah. From your business owner perspective. Exactly. From the everyday perspective, it's the comments like, oh, you dumb dumbs, you know,

B (103:03)

what are you doing?

A (103:03)

This and that. That was so stupid. This, you know, so on and so forth. It's like. But I really appreciate that. And that's the kind of stuff I like to share. Sometimes I don't like to share it because sometimes people share stuff going bad. Just, you know, it gets a bunch of likes and this and that, bunch of reactions. I like to. When it's a great example, I like to share it. Like, hey, you know, when you're in an articulated truck or an equipment, especially around water, you've got to be careful and you've got to be mindful of what you're driving on. You've got to be mindful of your, your underfoot conditions at all times. And you've got to be wearing a seatbelt. You know, if that machine does roll over, which articulate trucks, I mean, I'm sure an articulate truck has rolled over at some point in your history when they roll. If you're wearing a seatbelt, you're good to go. Like, it's not really a problem when you roll a machine if you're wearing a seatbelt. If you're not wearing a seatbelt, you could die. Like, that's the difference. And, and, but, but, you know, I don't. Me as a somebody new to the industry, I can't really conceptualize that until I see it and then I'm like,

B (104:07)

oh, that's what can happen.

A (104:09)

Yes. Yeah. Or I shared another one recently on LinkedIn. It was a skid steer with a mulching head.

B (104:16)

I saw that. Yeah, I saw that one too.

A (104:18)

That Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.

B (104:20)

I mean, how somebody lived through that is unbelievable.

A (104:23)

Unbelievable. But like, that's a classic. That's a classic error. He was probably. He had the mulching head too high up on the tree, was applying, applying force to the tree too high up is probably what happened. The tree gives way, which is what

B (104:40)

he's trying to do anyways, which is

A (104:41)

what he's trying to do anyway. And then the whole machine tips forward right onto the rest of the tree.

B (104:47)

Chilling, chilling. Looking at that. But, you know, the principle is back to what's the center of gravity and where, where am I positioned and how many times do we not think about if something were 2 degrees different, 2 seconds different. Yeah, just 2 inches. Whatever the difference is between nothing happening Or a catastrophe. You know, my version of that. I was running skid loader and got too close to the edge of a ditch with my bucket too high up in the air, trying to get stone out in. So less shoveling. And guess what? My skid loader tipped front. Well, thankfully I just fell into the backhoe boom. And didn't get impaled or tumbled head over heels in the ditch. But the same principle, thinking about center of gravity and where am I at and what's different this time? And sometimes familiarity breeds contempt of the risk.

A (105:34)

But I can talk all day about center of gravity again if I haven't been around it all much. I can't. All that conceptual, I can't really conceptualize it, but something like that, it's like, oh, I hadn't even thought about. And I rolled up my skid steer because I had material too high up in the bucket and I was going down a hill and just plopped it right over. I hadn't even thought about it though. It's like I. I only have three, four hours in a machine. I haven't even thought about center of gravity. But had I had some of those stories of like, hey, be really mindful of where your work tool or your bucket is, especially when you've got material in it. Like your bucket's a lot heavier with wet dirt in it, you know, a rock in it than nothing in it. And that changes the center of gravity. And so you got to be mindful. It's like to somebody that's run equipment their whole life, it's like, yeah, you idiot. Of course you have to be aware of your center of gravity. I just didn't know.

B (106:29)

Yeah, you didn't have that background knowledge, experience, and how many other people are in our industry, in our companies in that exact same spot today. And you know, I think as we get further and further away from an agrarian society where people grew up on the farm, went to grandpa's farm over the summer, he yelled at them, you know, because they had the tractor bucket too high and they learned we don't. We have much less of that today. And that's a place where I think AI can be very helpful to us in equipment that I envision. I'd love to see a real time coaching because even though microlearning and training and all these other things, they all have their place, but the technology is there that that skid loader could have a speaker in it that says you're traveling with your bucket too high, death could occur quickly. Lower your Bucket. How do you get that in the real time? So that this technology and its use is applying useful information to the operator at their point of need or would be awesome.

A (107:27)

I mean I. The manufacturers are still trying to figure out how to make a touchscreen that like works. But once they have that figured out, maybe that's the next step.

B (107:36)

Because right now so much of what happens, even idling time, other things, it goes up to big brother at the manufacturer or back at the office, the supervisor gets a call, says tell John to shut the truck off or idled for the last two hours or he's doing this and we got a code. It's overheating the hydraulic oil. Well, that's just eroding trust. And the operator doesn't have the information when they need it or lose your

A (108:02)

attitude the next day.

B (108:03)

Yeah, well that's too late.

A (108:04)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

B (108:05)

And maybe bad things happen in the meantime, but why not have the machine say, Aaron, it seems as if you're extending the dipper too far and running it over relief. The hydraulic oil is heating up. The machine will perform better if you make this adjustment. Or it seems like you're loading trucks. Optimal bench height is eight foot lower your bench height by two feet and your production will go up by 20%. The information's there.

A (108:29)

Yeah, but I think that's a very real possibility. I think what you said about people growing up on farms, whatever is like somebody like you, you grew up around it. So at 18 years old you have a huge volume of experience. Huge volume of experience. At 18 years old I had no experience. That, that doesn't, that has no bearing our. On our intelligence. Like people say like well it's. You're stupid.

B (108:55)

It's like not at all.

A (108:55)

I'm not stupid. I just haven't ever been around it. So one, I'm showing up on the job site with, with no, like that's why on the job training has worked primarily I think two factors. One, people were showing up with background knowledge that the industry did not have to create correct by how they were grew up. And then two mistakes were okay. And people like, like from. I mean I'm sure you have some stories of some more than we have

B (109:24)

time to talk about here. Yeah.

A (109:26)

You know, of equipment damage, of whoopsies. Like everybody that grew up in this previous generation. That's how you learned. You learned through errors. But applying real world experience to the experience you had coming up now, it's. I have no background knowledge whatsoever. So I don't even know. I don't know anything about anything. One, two. I can't make a single mistake. That's not allowed yet. I'm not getting any kind of training whatsoever.

B (109:56)

Yeah, it's a bad, it's a bad combination. And no wonder there's, there's distrust. No wonder there's disenchantment.

A (110:02)

Yeah.

B (110:02)

And.

A (110:03)

Well, and then I'm getting yelled at, you know, whatever it is, because that's how the previous generation got coached.

B (110:08)

Coached.

A (110:08)

They got yelled at. They got a wrench thrown at them. You legally can't throw wrenches, you know, thankfully. Thankfully. Or sometimes, you know, sometimes somebody needs a wrench thrown at them. It built some character in the previous generation, I'll say that much. But. But now you even have to train and develop someone differently. And it's not even the previous generation's fault either. It's like they were taught. The best way I can explain it was they were taught by their dad how to ride a bike as a kid and now there. And it wasn't a friendly way of going about it. They ate a bunch of shit while making it happen. Lots of bumps and scrapes. Hey, you dummy. Like, you have to focus on what's in front of you. Like don't, you know, don't do that. Tough love. So on and so forth. So they learned how to ride a bike. They've been riding a bike their whole life. I show up at 18 as a grown adult. I've never seen a bicycle in my life. They don't know how to teach how to ride a bike because they've been riding a bike their entire life and they don't even remember getting taught it. And when what they do remember wasn't fun. But that's all they have. So they're trying to explain to me how to ride a bike, but it's so obvious to them, they don't even know how to explain it effectively. And then they have no tools in their toolbox to be any kind of caring about the process, thoughtful about the process. They. It's just not their fault. That's what's happening right now.

B (111:34)

Yeah, I think one of the biggest wake up calls for me was raising our children. And so they're living in my house. I'm talking about work from time to time, not constantly. And sometimes I'd try and describe something about either a question they asked or something I wanted to tell about my day or maybe some instruction I was giving. And they'd look at me and say, dad. And I think I did this great job making it in simple Terms not use industry lingo, that they don't know what it means. And I would share this and they'd look at me and say, dad, I have no idea what you just said. I thought I made it simple. And these are intelligent kids. I think I might be a little biased, but I think, wow, they grew up in my house around construction, saw equipment. I have equipment, home on the weekends every now and then, do projects, and they're not grasping what I'm communicating. And I think I just made it simple. Wow. We have ways to go when it comes to what you just described, welcoming people and bringing them up in the industry.

A (112:41)

Yeah.

B (112:42)

Because we just assume they know so much.

A (112:45)

Exactly.

B (112:45)

That it's common and it's really not. We forget that we learned it too.

A (112:50)

Yeah, but now I think that's the disconnect is this previous generation has to learn how to teach it, which is totally different to how they came up. So they're having to learn while the up and coming generation is also having to learn two totally different things. But. And that's exactly it. Like I just kind of chuckle when in the comments online when I'm criticized for explaining something very simple. It's like, yeah, of course, dummy. We know that. It's like I'm explaining it for everybody. I'm explaining it to my mom. My mom doesn't know what the acronym RCP is. If I asked my mom what's rcp, it would take a thousand guesses to maybe even get somewhere in the ballpark. Not even like, but that's the responsibility of, I think that previous generation to accept that, okay, this is a different generation. And my, my joke always is. And it's not even a joke. It's like, who raised this generation? So we're going to, we're going to blame and complain about this next generation, but it's like, well, who raised them? Oh, maybe you. So, okay, like, isn't it your fault? Then why is it their fault? And but, but, but they need to understand. It's, it's, it's different. It's not wrong, better, worst, just different. And they have to explain things as simple as possible. Like I think about everything when I'm trying to explain our videos to people. I'm like, I want to explain it to like a 6 year old, 8 year old, 10 year old. That's the level of comprehension I'm going for. And honestly, that's the level of training that the industry needs, is like very simple. And it's not that people are stupid. It's That I don't. The one, one of my best examples is like a tape measure. I thought my entire life a tape measure was in twelfths. No, not in construction. It's intense.

B (114:48)

Yep.

A (114:49)

It's a different, it's a different system. I didn't know that.

B (114:53)

And as soon as you say that, I think of the three truckloads of stone the grader operator had to push off the street because I looked at the wrong side of the correct foot rule when I was a grade checker. Like, I remember that. And again, somehow we made money through that. You know, I already felt bad enough, but that's not come. That's not common knowledge. And I grew up in the house, you know, and I still needed to learn that lesson. Sure, sure. Yeah.

A (115:20)

Well, I really appreciate what you guys have going on. It's. And I'm excited to see more of it myself. I haven't actually seen you guys at work.

B (115:29)

You're welcome to come up. You got an invitation to come visit us.

A (115:32)

Yeah, I know. I'd really love that.

B (115:34)

I just check out some cool projects, see what we're doing, and would love, love to have you there.

A (115:39)

Yeah, I'll come up when it's. The weather's a little bit better, though.

B (115:42)

Oh, you're one of those fair weather visitors. Well, at least you're up front about it.

A (115:47)

Yeah.

B (115:47)

I hear you're going to the Arctic Circle coming up, so I guess I can't. That's not a very legitimate accusation.

A (115:54)

I, I, in fairness, I go when it's. When operations are, are optimized, I would say. And so like that, that's the way I put it. Like, I don't really care about the weather. I care about when the operations optimized. So like oil sands, for example, they put their best numbers up when it's coldest, not when it's super cold. Because that, that's when stuff when it's like minus 30, minus 40. Yeah. Steel starts to become brittle and things start to break. But when it's, when everything's like real frozen, they, the, the haul roads are solid and then they can load their trucks, put maximum loads on their trucks and, and run them as quickly as they can, which then gets them much better numbers. So they, they need the cold weather to solidify their haul roads. The Arctic Circle is the exact same thing. I want to go on the ice road because that's the only way to drive there over an annual 52 week.

B (116:51)

Otherwise you're flying in.

A (116:52)

Otherwise you're flying in. But I want like like, one of that. That's, like, one of the key things about this place is they require the ice road to get their logistics in. And so that's why I'm like, I want to go in winter. Not that it's the best time to go. Like, again, minus 30, minus 40. A little extreme, but that's the only window you get for the ice road. Whereas, like, when it comes to moving dirt, you're moving more dirt in the summer than the winter.

B (117:19)

Yeah, well. But it ties into how you're adding value and what you're doing. You're showing reality in the full experience, not just something that's a partial glimpse of a much bigger picture. It won't be Arctic Circle temperature in Lancaster when you come visit us, I can assure you.

A (117:37)

No, no. I mean, it's a beautiful. It's a beautiful part of the country. I like to.

B (117:42)

We're blessed to be there.

A (117:43)

Yeah.

B (117:44)

Blessed to be there. A lot of great people and a lot of growth happening, a lot of industry and. And it's a great, great part of the country to be in.

A (117:50)

Yeah. I. I just. I want to see it when it's green, not gray, you know?

B (117:54)

I don't blame you. So do I. So do I. Bring it on. We're ready for it.

A (117:58)

Well, you still got a while. Yeah. I mean, this week is like. It's like 70 here in Tennessee in early February. I'm like, I'm not buying this. Like, the birds are. The birds are singing a little louder. I'm like, guys, don't get too excited. There's still a lot of winter.

B (118:12)

Another six weeks yet. Yeah.

A (118:14)

Yeah. You guys are getting a little. A little too early here.

B (118:17)

Don't.

A (118:17)

Don't think about it. We're still February. Well, cool. Well, thanks for. Thanks for coming.

B (118:22)

You're welcome. It's an honor. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the good work you're doing. Very exciting to see what you're doing for the industry, not just on the publicity side with the social media. I think that does lift the overall industry, but also on the training, the development, the tools, and it's a powerful combination, and we're honored to be a part of it. Had a great time at dirtworld last fall. That was my first one ever. That was great. We've had people at the other two, but that was excellent. Had a chance to meet there, and that led to this. So it's been an honor.

A (118:52)

Exactly. Yeah. And with you mentioned the independent board, I know Randy's been involved with you all for. How did you Meet Randy. How'd you get ahold of him?

B (119:00)

Well, that was through the first Dirt World Conference. Our business development director went and said, hey, I met this great guy that, you know, told me a little bit about Randy. And, and then sometime later I said, hey, I'm keeping my eyes open for potential future board members. Let me know if somebody comes to mind. He's well networked. And he said, yeah, this Randy that I met at the Dirt World Conference, I think you have a lot in common and you'd be well challenged, and he might be a good value in that role. So that led to a conversation and more conversation, and we're delighted to have Randy serve on our board with independent directors, which is kind of unique for a family business to have a fiduciary board, not an advisory board. Have a fiduciary board with independent directors in addition to the family directors. And technically they could fire me from running the company I own. And I think it's hard to preach accountability to other people in the business and not be subject to it myself. So I don't lay awake at night worrying about that. And that surprises a lot of people that we have that set up. But it has served us very well and we're honored to have Randy and a few others that serve us well in that capacity.

A (120:20)

I think though, that healthy degree of accountability for everybody is totally necessary. I think about that all the time. I'm like, I'm only here as long as I justify my value and as long as I'm valuable. If I stop being valuable, I don't deserve to be here. I could have my name on the company, whatever it is. Like Steve Jobs got fired from Apple. If Steve Jobs got fired from Apple, nobody's safe anymore at the end of the day. And I better, I better every day, every week be justifying my value to the business, to the team. If I, if I forget about that, I deserve to go like it. I think you do need, you do need some degree of that.

B (121:00)

Yeah. And it's hard to get in a family business. You know, my reviews were always done by my dad. Well, now they're done by an independent board and facilitated by an outside facilitator. So I get a meaningful 360 vow, and it's a huge blessing. It helps me grow, it helps me be encouraged at the things I'm doing well and focus on the things I need to keep working at. So that's part of the value. And we're delighted to have you share Randy with us a few days A year on that.

A (121:27)

Well, he was like, yeah. He asked if he could mention it or so on and so forth. I was like, I don't know if we're going to go there this and that, but I was like, I don't want to mention it because now everybody's gonna be calling Randy to be a board member at their company as well. It's like, no, no, it doesn't matter.

B (121:43)

Me. I already got it.

A (121:44)

Yeah, yeah, you got him at the right time. Your timing was perfect.

B (121:48)

Blessing with good challenge, perspective. Been in the seat and certainly immersed in the industry, and those are all valuable traits to have.

A (121:56)

Well, and that's why he's here, because I remember the first time I actually heard him speak to business owners. It was at a small event we held in Arizona, maybe in 21 or something like that. And everybody was listening. Everybody was like, huh, this guy knows what the heck he's talking about. And that was. I remember that moment, too. I was like, this guy knows what the heck he's talking about. And then, you know, 1, 2, 6. Here we are with him, very involved in our company and dirt world in general.

B (122:24)

And it's a blessing to all of us. And with that comes a real sense of humility that Randy brings. And there's a lot of people with a lot of knowledge and experience. But to steward that with humility is a rare trait.

A (122:36)

I agree. I definitely agree. Well, Keith, thanks.

B (122:40)

You're welcome. Thanks for being here, allowing me to be here. It's been a great time together. I don't know where the time went. Way too fast.

A (122:47)

It always does.