Landscaping Leadership w/ Justin White – DT 344

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt Episode: Landscaping Leadership with Justin White – DT 344 Release Date: June 5, 2025

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Introduction to Industry Challenges

00:00 - 02:08

Host Aaron opens the conversation by highlighting the dual nature of opportunities and challenges within the landscaping industry. He emphasizes the importance of addressing serious issues before expecting the next generation to fully engage and contribute. Aaron shares a recent experience from a board meeting where a decision led to unintended consequences, underscoring the complexities of decision-making in business.

Aaron (00:00): "We have some serious fucking problems... we just didn't make a better decision."

Learning from Mistakes and Moving Forward

02:08 - 04:54

Justin White concurs with Aaron, stressing the significance of learning from past mistakes to prevent future repetitions. Both speakers agree on the necessity of maintaining momentum despite setbacks. Aaron discusses the value of transparency and vulnerability, suggesting that sharing failures can build trust and appreciation from clients and team members.

Justin (02:08): "What we learn, how do we avoid repeating it?"

Building a Strong Team Culture

04:54 - 07:24

Aaron delves into leadership responsibilities, emphasizing the need to shield team members from underlying burdens to ensure they can perform optimally. Justin expands on this by illustrating the role of a CEO in creating a "paved road" for the team, allowing them to focus on driving the business forward without fear of unexpected obstacles.

Justin (06:10): "You're the navigator... they've got the sheet."

Embracing Technology and Innovation

07:24 - 16:17

The discussion shifts to the impact of technology on the landscaping industry. Both Aaron and Justin acknowledge the rapid advancements in AI, robotics, and electrification, predicting significant transformations by 2030. Aaron expresses some apprehension about AI's role but recognizes its potential to disrupt various industries.

Justin (10:23): "There are three mindsets right now... fear, excitement, and belief in the future."

Optimizing Field Operations

16:17 - 26:07

Justin highlights the substantial portion of revenue allocated to labor in landscaping and the critical need to enhance field crew efficiencies through technology. Aaron concurs, noting the rising costs in states like California and the challenges posed by regulatory red tape. They both stress that improving operational efficiencies can lead to better pay for workers and increased profitability.

Justin (16:17): "A lot of our labor costs are upwards of 55%... optimizing field crews is key."

Mental Health and Workforce Retention

26:07 - 45:05

Aaron and Justin address the pressing issue of mental health within the construction and landscaping sectors. They discuss the high overdose fatalities and the necessity of offering better wages and working conditions to retain talent. Aaron criticizes the industry's lack of supportive measures, while Justin shares strategies for fostering loyalty through career development and comprehensive training programs.

Aaron (22:14): "Why does everybody leave? Could you make a career in $26 an hour?"

Justin (25:02): "We try to operate a company that lives in those values... elevating team members to higher roles."

Regulatory and Environmental Challenges in California

45:05 - 75:31

The conversation turns to California's stringent regulations and environmental challenges, particularly concerning forest fires and water scarcity. Aaron and Justin express frustration with bureaucratic hurdles that impede effective fire management and water conservation efforts. They advocate for proactive measures such as creating defensible spaces around properties and adopting fire-wise planting techniques to mitigate wildfire risks.

Justin (73:52): "We need to create a moat or a defensible space around our community."

Aaron (74:01): "Managed forests are more beautiful... yet regulations hinder practical solutions."

Transitioning to Electric Equipment

75:31 - 103:08

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the transition from diesel-powered to electric equipment in landscaping. Justin outlines his company's successful shift to 100% electric handheld and small mower equipment, citing benefits such as reduced noise, lower maintenance costs, and improved worker satisfaction. Aaron discusses the broader industry implications, acknowledging both the advantages and the resistance from traditional operators.

Justin (87:54): "Today, we're 100% electric for all our handheld and small mowers."

Aaron (102:20): "It can be a better technology... but there's no room for that conversation."

Personal Branding and Industry Influence

103:08 - 116:24

Aaron and Justin explore the importance of personal branding and authentic leadership in driving industry change. They emphasize the need for transparency, honesty, and genuine engagement with both employees and clients. By building strong personal brands, they aim to influence the landscaping sector towards more sustainable and efficient practices.

Justin (114:15): "Instagram and LinkedIn are our main platforms for sharing insights and documenting our journey."

Aaron (115:44): "We're going to carry the industry into this next generation."

Conclusion and Forward Look

116:24 - End

In their concluding remarks, Aaron and Justin reaffirm their commitment to improving the landscaping industry through innovation, honest leadership, and a focus on sustainability. They encourage listeners to embrace change, invest in their teams, and adopt technologies that enhance efficiency and environmental stewardship.

Justin (115:31): "We're here to provide our services better and save our clients money."

Aaron (116:24): "We're going to move forward and set the rules for the future of landscaping."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Leadership and Decision-Making: Effective leadership requires acknowledging and learning from mistakes, fostering a culture of transparency, and strategically shielding team members from undue burdens.

2. Technology Integration: Embracing advancements in AI, robotics, and electrification can significantly enhance operational efficiencies and set companies apart in a competitive market.

3. Mental Health and Workforce Development: Addressing mental health challenges and investing in comprehensive training programs are crucial for retaining talent and building a loyal, skilled workforce.

4. Regulatory Navigation: Proactive environmental management and advocating for sensible regulations are essential to mitigate challenges like wildfires and water scarcity, especially in states like California.

5. Sustainability and Innovation: Transitioning to electric equipment not only benefits the environment but also improves worker satisfaction and reduces long-term operational costs.

6. Personal Branding: Building an authentic personal brand can influence industry standards, attract like-minded clients, and drive positive change within the sector.

This episode of Dirt Talk offers a candid and insightful discussion on the multifaceted aspects of leadership within the landscaping industry, providing valuable perspectives for both seasoned professionals and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Aaron]

We have this great opportunity, future state for especially young people. Unbelievable opportunity. But we also have some serious fucking problems.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And we've got to start with the serious problems before we are to expect the next generation to pony up and say, all right, let's go. Yep, let's go. The obvious stuff isn't obvious. And the stuff that's obvious to you is probably not obvious to most people. But we just had one of those. We had a board meeting yesterday and we have one outside board member. And we said we were gonna go do something. I'll keep it vague, but make some changes. And this was maybe 60 days ago. And he asked the question, hey, with those changes, could it have this outcome? And we were like, no, we've got our bases covered. It's not going to have that outcome. This is black and white. Well, it had that outcome. And you know, he was asking us about it yesterday and we were like, yeah, like, of course it was going to have that outcome. This was a dumb decision. Like, we just, it was, it was dumb. We should have planned better. We should have known better. Like, we had all the information to make a better decision and we just didn't make a better decision. Because when you're in the thick of things, it's like something seems black and white, but everything's fucking gray. And you go make these decisions and looking back on, you're like, well, what were we thinking? What was I thinking? Like, what?

[Justin]

Hindsight's 20 20.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but it's like, but it's the, it's the dumb shit that hurts most because it's like, it's just self inflicted. Like, come on, we knew better. But. But at the same time, there's no sense in poor us. It's like, okay, cool, it's happened, we're here. What do we do next? How we get, how are we figuring this out?

[Justin]

Yep. What we learn, how do we avoid repeating it?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

It's like the eos, right? It's like, solve the issue and go to the next thing.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

Keep moving.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but the dash cam things, I think a great thing to share online, like, listen, we royally screwed this up. And it. In it, in it. You do have to swallow your pride to share something like that.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because it, it does say like, yep, I didn't think about this, or something was happening within my business that I wasn't aware of. Which is also a hit to your ego. Like, oh, wow, he doesn't know what's going on with this business. It's like, that's I'm not saying that's the reality. It's like that's what's going through your head or through people's heads that don't share this kind of stuff, but then you share it and people are like, thank you.

[Justin]

Yeah, people appreciate the honesty. The thing you said earlier about just being. You don't wanna feel and put out the portrayal that you have everything figured out. And sometimes by documenting the process, you document the highlights because it's easier to document highlights and lowlights. And for that reason, you said earlier, we can't necessarily document all the low lights. So you end up having this highlight reel of all the things that went well in your business. And people on the outside are like, wow, these people are perfect. And the truth is, is, oh, no. It's very messy growing a business.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but see, this is also where it's tough. Like, I want to go document everything, but at the same time, you have all these people, these business owners bitching online. Oh, it's so hard. Oh, I work so much. This and that. People don't know. People don't understand. It's like, does somebody have a gun to your head forcing you to be Mr. Business Owner? Like, fuck off. Like, if that's not what you want to do, don't do it. Like, that's. That's the game. Like, welcome to the game. Welcome to the game. It's like playing football and not wanting to get hit. It's like, that's table stakes, man. It's like, this is how the game's played. If you don't like it, by all means. And so I don't want to be that guy because it's like, yeah, I've signed up for this. I'm here. I want to be here. And so that, That's. That's one thing, I think I. I guess that's. That's like, the big thing is I don't want to come off. Like, I'm complaining. And then two, I don't want to be like, I just had this conversation the other day with some people as well. They were like, hey, we were just. Because I noticed they just weren't 100. They weren't dialed in. They're like, after the fact. We had this conversation. Like, well, we were just. We were worried because we weren't getting what we needed to get and we weren't sure how it's going to be perceived, and we're spending all this money on this and that and etc. And I had to have the conversation with them. Like, listen one. Let's have that conversation in real time, because let's. Let's just air that.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because that's my burden. That's my job. Like, my job is to worry about that. My job is to shield you from that so you can go perform your job. And so I don't also want it to be me putting my burden on others because it's like, again, it's my burden. Like, it's me as a leader of a business and the other executives we have within our business. It's our job to protect the people within the business. The team performing, like doing. Building the business, protect them, bear the burden so that they can go. Continue to perform no matter how choppy the Cs are. And they're always choppy in one way or another. And so I also. I don't like sharing a lot of things for that reason. I don't want to be putting my burden on other people within the business because it's like, let me take it on. That's my job.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's what maybe gets in my way.

[Justin]

Or I could see that.

[Aaron]

Maybe informs me. I don't. I don't know which. Maybe both.

[Justin]

Yeah. Well, you want your team to feel like they have Runway ahead, like you've cleared the path for them.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Always say when we're talking about an executive's responsibility, CEO or other, you need to pave the road for your team. So when they get there, it's a nice, perfectly paved road. There's lines, there's directions, there's everything they need. Otherwise, you're just kind of like a trophy truck ripping through the desert, and you don't know what's around the next turn.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And everyone's full throttle, but they're really, really afraid of, like, a giant hole or a rock in the way.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And if your team knows that you've paved the way and the next few miles is, like, totally dialed in and it's nicely paved, then they're going to run. They're going to. They're going to rip down that road of where you want to take the business.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Or trophy truck example. Like, you're the navigator. You've done the homework. You understand the course. You've got the sheet.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

They're not worrying about where to go. They're worried about driving the. Driving the trophy truck as fast as possible. And you're saying, we've got a left in 300ft. You know, it's.

[Justin]

Trust me.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like total trust.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Total yeah, they're worried about making it go fast, getting from point A to point B. You're worried about where is B, you know, and getting them there.

[Justin]

Where's the next checkpoint, too, where we can maybe take a break, too? I think people need to see that. Like, I think businesses are all these, like, peaks and valleys and plateaus and where is the next base camp to refill oxygen, to kind of recollect ourselves and then go for the next. The next peak, so to speak.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's interesting, too, as I get further into business there. It's with anything but it's like, you know, a business owner is a business owner, but that's just not at all true. There's. There's different tiers, and there's just different calibers of individuals within this world.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And like, right now, it's super interest. I'm. I. I think right now is fascinating. Covid was. Was really fascinating too, but it's like, I understand a little bit more about the world now because I'm a little bit, you know, Covid, I was 24, 25. Now I'm 30. So I, like, I have a few more. Few more years down the road and.

[Justin]

You traveled.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I've compressed a lot of experience into those five years as well. And just watching how different people are reacting to the uncertainty right now, oh, my God. I think is fascinating and I think says a lot about each one of these individuals. And there's all different reactions, but I think the just the purebred stallions, just the fucking winners, they're not putting their heads in the sand by any stretch of the imagination. They understand the situation as well as anybody, but they're also not stressing out about it. They're not worried. They're as cool as it gets. Like, I'm just gonna win regardless. So if the economy booms, I'm gonna win. If we have a recession, I'm gonna win. It's such a cool mentality, and there's a lot of people that are. All they're talking about is like, just the doom and gloom or whatever it is. Like, oh, it's gonna be. It's gonna be terrible, so on and so forth, and it's. It's just interesting. And maybe they're right. I don't know. But I'm just. I'm learning a lot by observing right now, man.

[Justin]

I. So this last four or five months, we're in May now, so from January to April, I said, look, I told my wife, I'm like, I'm going heads down, I'm gonna be traveling, I'm going to every conference that I can go to. And I spoke at a lot of them. I gave a talk here, panel there, keynote here. And what I realized in talking with people is there's three mindsets right now. One is the mindset of fear. Like we've done things one way, it's worked, and we know we have to change. And that's really scary because we've been doing the same thing for 30 years.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's work. And I'm comfy.

[Justin]

And I built a $500 million business and I'm loving it.

[Aaron]

Let's go.

[Justin]

Then there's the guy that's doing 3 million in revenue, who has built his business on technology, who doesn't have a back office because he's outsourced to AI or what have you for all financial and everything. And he's excited because he's doubled every year for the last three years and he can't wait to see where the next year takes him. Then there's the other people who aren't owners yet, but they believe in the person they're following. They believe in the company they're a part of, and they believe that that company can do something massive that can impact the next generation. And the next generation is with COVID and everything else. It is, I think, accelerated this transition to technology, to the next generation of workforce. And the companies of tomorrow, of 2030 look nothing like the companies of 2020.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Compared to 2010 to 2020. That 10 year difference has almost no difference. But 2020 to 2030 is going to completely revolutionize everything. I mean, robotics, electrification technology, AI compatibility, the way we interface with our software. It's, I think it's going to be very, very good for the people who embrace it and very, very bad for the people who bury their head in the sand.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. We're learning more about the AI thing right now. It's terrifying. I, I just, I'm tempted to bury my head in the sand because I just, Yeah, I just want to deal with it. It's just too much. I'm, I'm not smart enough to get it. It's gonna be a big piece, I think, I think though, what's really, I think technology is a big piece, but I think what's really driving, what will really drive the change in any cuz like robotics, automation, software, etc. Is gonna royally fuck up some industries like law for example.

[Justin]

Oh, GPAs.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, just, I think just a higher education. Like, there's, there's some, there are some big worlds there that are about to, like the table's about to get flipped over, I feel like, in a lot of different ways. So. And I think that's true in some ways to the blue collar world, but not because we're still dealing in atoms at the end of the day. Like, you still have to put plants in the ground. You still have to paver those plants. Yeah. Pavers are just as heavy in the future as they are today. Like, like they're, you know, you still have to do the work. You still have to build the physical world and the physical world until AI completely takes over and eliminates the human race.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And even then, like, AI still needs to produce power and yeah, they still.

[Justin]

Need physical server farms.

[Aaron]

I think even, even when we are just, just total slaves to president global leader AI, they're still going to need us to give them the resources necessary.

[Justin]

That's probably the only thing we'll be doing.

[Aaron]

Maybe. But, but so, so like, as long as there's human beings on planet Earth at any kind of scale whatsoever, beyond cavemen, there's infrastructure, there's physical world. And so I, you know, I. There's a lot like technology companies just over the hill from where you are.

[Justin]

Yeah, Silicon Valley.

[Aaron]

Silicon Valley is like you almost throw a rock from where you are.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

But it's just far enough away, which is good.

[Justin]

It is. It's over the hill.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's over that hill. It's a sketchy road. It's like you've got just enough between you and them, but they start talking about how it's just going to, you know, revolutionize everything. And I'm like, yeah, but it is. But like, you should get out more like. Yeah, because a bridge is still a bridge. And, and it's just. That's not getting automated anytime soon. And, and I could be like, they could just be laughing at me like, you idiot. We. We already have our bridge building robots in the back. Like you don't even know about them yet. But we're building bridges all day with these damn things. Maybe, but I just don't see that anytime soon. And you have this enormous tsunami that's about to crash over us. That is just this aging population. Like it's, it's math undeniable. So you have technology. This is a really long winded way of saying you have technology. It's going to make things more efficient. It will it will make us better. But you still have the people doing the work. You're not going to outrun that anytime soon. And I think that's where it's really won and lost. Like, the technology can certainly give you an advantage, but that advantage is not indefinite. Whereas, like, it's a moat, but it's not as big of a moat. Whereas the people side of things, I think the technology only makes the people side of things more valuable. It totally like, like I've seen this with communication. Like, I feel like the tech, technology has only made people shittier at communication. So if you can learn how to communicate effectively, you're way better off. Way better off.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so, and then if you can marry your communication skills, the base level, understanding and foundation with technology, with AI, to make it even better.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Now you can really fucking run circles around people.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

So that's the world I'm in right now.

[Justin]

I, I'd say, man, I, I totally agree. The people element of our business. We were talking about this last night on our P and L just to the cost of delivering the product. The cost of goods on a job site labor is typically 25 to 40% of those costs. So, so upwards of 55% for just regular maintenance. Which means you can only automate your backend office so much and make your overhead a small percentage of your total revenue. But you can't get away from this fact that your labor in the field is minimum 20 to 25% of your revenue, upwards of 50 or 55%. The opportunity you have to, to I say it in this way to make more money so you can pay more money, so you can pay your team better is by optimizing and creating massive efficiencies with the crews in the field. But if you can use technology to make them more efficient, and I think we're going to see this, we're going to see costs of construction start to kind of come down at some point because of the automation and efficiency of the field teams.

[Aaron]

I hope so. That's, that's, that's very optimistic.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's gone the complete opposite way, especially in California.

[Justin]

It's, it's so bad. But the problem, one of the big problems is like red tape. Soft costs can be 51% of a.

[Aaron]

Total job, which is a majority of why everything's gone up so much.

[Justin]

That's it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And so I think, I mean, who knows what happens with regulations and everything else. I don't necessarily see that changing too much, but I think that we're going to see a point where the more profitable companies are actually not going to be the most expensively priced.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I agree.

[Justin]

And that'll be very interesting to see. And they'll now own market share. They'll basically set the price point and they'll be making more money than everybody else.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Even though they'll be accused of lowballing.

[Aaron]

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[Justin]

Yeah, we're buying it from the same state.

[Aaron]

F250s. F250. Yeah. So you, you know, there, there are some odds and ends there, There are some things you can do from a means and methods standpoint that might give you an edge here or there. But I feel like that's where everybody's competing right now is like the means and methods. Well, we can just do it better than the next guy. But it's like, but, but that's all. There's more art in landscaping, construction. There's a problem with that too because it's like, well, bridge is a bridge. Like you don't have a say in the bridge. Getting Built?

[Justin]

Yeah, it's engineered.

[Aaron]

I can't say. Well, I actually want to do it. I actually want to build this bridge.

[Justin]

Let's change the steel.

[Aaron]

It doesn't work that way, and they say it does with alternative delivery. Not really. Alternative delivery has not been the savior everybody, I think, has made it out to be or become. And so then you just. You go down the line and you're like, well, all right, I have this labor cost. That's a significant piece.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If I figure that out, we can do some really cool shit. And now we can do work cheaper. We're getting more work while paying people more money, which I think is huge. I think I just posted something yesterday about, you know, it's safety week, mental health week, etcetera, and it's. It's great. Okay, cool. We need to talk more about mental health. But I'm starting to just. I'm starting to be better at speaking my mind, but in a more productive way. Like, early on, I was speaking my mind, but just being a fucking punk.

[Justin]

Being abrasive.

[Aaron]

I was being a punk. Whereas now it's like, I'm just. I'm trying to just call bullshit a.

[Justin]

Little bit better on the narrative.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's like, we need to talk about mental health. It's like, okay, well, one that doesn't do fucking anything. That does nobody. And. Good. All right, we're talking about now. Okay, cool. We're talking about it.

[Justin]

What are we doing?

[Aaron]

And. And, well, our insurance company has this phone number you can call and you can get help. It's like, have you tried calling that phone number? Have you tried using it? Because it's worthless. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's gonna. It's gonna make their mental state worse because they have to go deal with the system now.

[Justin]

They're gonna have, like, a prescription and.

[Aaron]

Yeah. No, and it's not. And it's not a laughing matter. Like, this is. This is serious. Like, hey, if we're serious about safety in the construction industry.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know. We should probably ask why we have 16 times the deaths in the construction industry from overdose fatalities, and we can just say, well, it's just because they're addicts. We can't do anything about that. Well, why. It's 16 times, though, which is far greater than any other world. Why. Why is that? Like, why are so many of our people dying and so many of our people using. Using these narcotics, which then lead to something like a fentanyl like, why is that? Well, it's because their bodies are degrading. Why is that?

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Well, you can just start asking why, why, why, why, why? And start to get into like, hey, there's some foundational problems here that we should probably resolve. One of those foundational problems is like, hey, it just doesn't pay well. Yeah, it just doesn't pay enough. Like, in California, you need to make a pretty good living. Like a pretty significant hourly rage to. To do that long term. It's like, why does everybody leave? Like, why, why? You know, why isn't. Why aren't people making this as a career? It's like, could you make a career in $26 an hour?

[Justin]

Right.

[Aaron]

No. Especially in California.

[Justin]

Like, no way.

[Aaron]

No way. No. No way. Way. And so I don't. I don't blame people for leaving because it's like, well, they can't live. Of course they're going to go somewhere else. And especially when Amazon sets up a warehouse down the street that says $30 an hour, it's like, with air conditioning.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

With. With full benefits. And it's Amazon. It's like, why not?

[Justin]

Probably good job security.

[Aaron]

Yes. Let's go.

[Justin]

Let's go versus getting laid off every winter and everything else. I mean, we're not creating the most attractive industry to go into. Although I think we have the best industry to be in right now, 100%.

[Aaron]

I think both of those things can be true.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

We have this great opportunity, future state for especially young people. Unbelievable opportunity. But we also have some serious fucking problems.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And we've got to start with the serious problems before we are to expect the next generation to pony up and say, all right, let's go. Yep, let's go.

[Justin]

Yeah, that's it. How do we solve the world? I mean, it's one step, one brick at a time. It's talking about it, it's bringing attention to it. And then it's, I think, for us at K and D, one thing we try to do is we try to operate a company that lives in those values, lives in the values of raising the bar in the landscape. Industry lives in that place of how do we elevate someone from a, you know, tradesman, one coming in to become an account manager or become a supervisor, where they can make 80, 90, $120,000 a year or maybe more.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

How do we teach them how to use technology? Because a lot of these people are smart, capable, they understand the industry. But as technology's introduced, there's that gap that they need to close. Just because they don't know how to work a laptop at a high level, they pretty much are not now able to be a crew leader or foreman or site superintendent because all the plans are online. Change orders, RFIs, markups. Everything's on the iPad. So they don't know how to work an iPad. Then they're almost automatically disqualified. So how can we teach them on our time that we pay them on a Saturday, or, God forbid, we take a Friday, and we don't work in the field, and we go into the warehouse?

[Aaron]

You can't do that, right?

[Justin]

You can't do that, dude.

[Aaron]

You can't do that.

[Justin]

You're gonna. You're gonna miss the schedule.

[Aaron]

More plants in the ground, produce, or.

[Justin]

You'Re not hitting your key performance indicators. You need a thousand plants a week. Yeah, it's. It's incredible when you start to say, hey, we're gonna spend 8% of our time not in the field. We're gonna do training. We're gonna do safety. We're gonna do just get together and have pizza. You know, just hang out.

[Aaron]

I think that's key. And I think there's a lot of people angry because they don't know these things. They don't know these basics. But it's like, well, where were they supposed to get the basics? And it's like, okay, maybe they were supposed to get it from school, from the parents, whatever. They don't have it. So that's still your problem.

[Justin]

Still your problem.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And it's like you can just kick and scream all day, like. But then you still have the problem. Like, it doesn't do anybody any good. Like, you're the first person to lose with that mentality, which is what pisses me off about it. It's like you're the one in your way. Like, you're. You are the obstacle. I liked what you said last night, too, about just professionalism, appearance.

[Justin]

Parents take pride in your appearance. Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's so big, especially in a. In a world like landscaping. That's. I think that's. It sounds so silly, but I think that is. I'm. I'm. The more I think about it, the more. And this is not a new concept, but the more I subscribe to. You have to look good, to perform good. You just. It doesn't work. And. And that's not to say you're not getting dirty throughout the day.

[Justin]

Oh, yeah, of course not.

[Aaron]

You're still doing hard work. I understand that. Or if you're like, a mechanic, you know, getting grease all over. I still. I still understand it, but that doesn't mean, like, that doesn't mean you show up looking like shit. Like there's. There's a. And again, like you are the first one to win or lose. If you take pride in those details, in your appearance, like it benefits you.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And that's what I try to drive into people's heads here. It's like, listen, I'm not being an asshole about the details because of me. It's because of you. Like, this is where you win and lose, and this is where we win or lose as a team. But it starts with you. Like, if you dial this in, you're the first one to win. And then we win. And then the whole. You know, and then. And then our customers win, etc. Like, it's. But it stems from you.

[Justin]

Yeah, it's the start. That's the beginning of everything.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

The. Pay attention to the details, too. I mean, when you have. And we've. We had. Funny story, we had a client and we signed a $300,000 contract to do a residential backyard installation, pavers, the whole. The whole works. Outdoor kitchen. And I like to understand why did the client pick us? Because we're typically not the cheapest. And there's amazing contractors out there that I think do a great or maybe even a better job on quality. It's just. That is the high bar in California. So I called, said, hey, what was the deciding factor in choosing to go with K and D? And she goes, well, me and my husband were. We had the three or four bids in front of us, and we were taking kind of a week or two to decide it. And what we noticed is as we drove around, we saw your trucks everywhere all of a sudden, because now there's this connection, Right. Otherwise just another truck with a logo. And she said, every truck we saw was clean. It was well kept. Things were tied down. There wasn't shovels all over. Like, things were in racks. And she said the fact that your trucks were clean and organized gave us confidence that the job site would be clean and organized.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So we picked you because you have clean trucks. I was like, holy shit. We want a $300,000 job because we have clean trucks.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So I tell that story constantly to our team because that is us winning because they were winning at a very small micro level of just keeping the trucks clean. Yeah, it's simple. And it's hard to keep trucks clean. In construction. You're always off road, you're always in the dirt.

[Aaron]

Well, it, it's hard. It just takes discipline. Exactly. It just takes discipline. Like, it, it, it's, it's hard, but it's not. And, and, and I was listening to interesting this, like, this divorce lawyer talk, the like three hour podcast from this divorce lawyer. But, but he was, his point was like, listen, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot better to have these smaller, uncomfortable conversations than it is to have this really uncomfortable conversation in a, in a, in a courtroom, you know, with attorneys. Or, or he's like, it's, it's, it's a lot easier to keep yourself healthy and keep weight off than to put a bunch of weight on and then have to lose it. Like, that's a lot harder. And so. But it takes that, but it does take that. It's less acute, but it does take that diligence that little bit every day. But it's like if you keep the truck clean every day, then it doesn't really take all that much work. It's just a little bit of work every day. But if you let it become a complete disaster pigsty, it's gonna take you a full Saturday to get that thing dialed back in.

[Justin]

Yeah. And it's never that much cleaner after that either. It's. No, I tell you guys this to the same point of if you brush your teeth once a month for like two hours, you're putting in the same amount of time brushing your teeth. Sure, but we're supposed to brush our teeth twice a day for two minutes.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Results gonna be a little different.

[Justin]

So it's like you can spend all day washing your truck eight hours, or you can spend eight minutes every morning and just like give it a quick wipe down or give it a quick spray down.

[Aaron]

Sure. So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in, in. In the world I'm in. It's heavy equipment. You know, like I was telling you. It's. I just, I can't think of a single example of a world class operator that doesn't have a tidy machine. Yeah, and they're all the, the best ones are actually super. Just a little, they almost take it a little too far.

[Justin]

Mm.

[Aaron]

But that's the point. Like that's, that's why they're there. And they're very, they're very protect. Like even when we were in the Netherlands a few weeks ago and we were, there was this machine we were checking out and we needed to get up on the machine to check it out and you know, anywhere, no one would give a shit because it's like it's the outside of the machine and it's gonna get muddy anyway. And it's a walkway. Like you're, you're, you're on a walkway.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So it's, and there's mud all around us. So it's not like you can just wipe your boots off on the, on the carpet. But we get up on the machine. I wouldn't have thought twice about it because that's just, that's what you do. But the, the operator was like, he was, he was being funny about it because he wanted us to see the machine. We were checking something out top me but he was like, oh, it's all messy now. I'm going to have to clean it. And, and the guy we were with is like, he was joking but he's serious. He's going to go clean the machine after, after this. Because they, the operators here, they don't like dirty cabs, but they don't like dirty machines. So they're going to clean the mud off the walkways of the machine because they want it to be perfect. And it's like that is spectacular. It's just part of the culture there. Yeah, it's part of the culture here with the great companies, but it's not part of the culture industry wide.

[Justin]

No.

[Aaron]

At all.

[Justin]

No. And to that point when you appreciate and respect the equipment you have as if it was another coworker. Right. Your equipment's gonna last longer. They're gonna operate it at a higher capacity, I think. And you know, we had an issue with a lot of our equipment getting broken in the field. And we were just frustrated because it's like, man, every day it seemed like another tractor was breaking. You know, we have a lot of mini excavators, mini skid steers. And what we realize is we just didn't have the right culture of that example of like the operator taking care of the equipment. Because no operator was assigned equipment. Sure, they shared everything. So it was because no one owned it, no one cared about it. Then we went to the fact of saying, look, we're gonna over invest. We're gonna buy basically a tractor for every crew. And now every crew is assigned a tractor and every crew typically has an operator. And for that reason we hardly ever have anything break. They grease it, they take care of it, air filter, dust it out. Any big fixes our mechanic takes care of. But because they were assigned the equipment, probably to the gentleman in the Netherlands, that was his office.

[Aaron]

Yeah. They keep operators with machines.

[Justin]

Yeah. I think you have to Kind of do that.

[Aaron]

I do too. There's a lot of people that argue against that because there's a lot of models not built on that. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, I don't know. That's like, that's kind of it.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like the, the best kept machines I've ever seen have one operator because. Yeah. They, they own it or when we were in Japan, the, in February, the operator, the, the, the owner of the quarry was joking with us. They're like, yeah, the operator doesn't take time off because he doesn't want anyone else running that machine.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's like, I don't know if that's good or not, but it's. But I respect it.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

He's like, no, this is, this is my machine. If somebody else runs it, there's a potential for it to get a little screwed up. And I'm telling you, I walked into that cab, he takes his, he takes his boots off, he puts it in a little tray and then he has his little cab slippers. He's got like slides to run the. Running a mining excavator, you know, wild whatever million pound machine or whatever this thing is.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So he's running his mining excavator in the slides that just stay in the cab. That don't go outside the cab because you don't want the cab dirty. And it's like, I mean every other mining excavator cab is just ransacked. I mean it's just like, do you have a pig living in here? Like what's going on? Seeds on the floor, Just like an inch of mud across the, across the. It's just, it's a disaster. But this was, it was spotless because it's his machine.

[Justin]

There's something to that, I think. And I think those are the novel ideas that companies are afraid to embrace.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Because they're like, oh well what about the, the efficiency of the equipment or the utilization rate of the equipment? If we have multiple people using it, we work all this, we can get better utilization. But does that outweigh this idea of one person owning that equipment, Owning what they do?

[Aaron]

Well. And yeah. And they're, they're, they're prioritizing a certain number. Utilization. Yeah. Over anything else. And it's like is that the most important number? Like does that make the biggest change to the company in an annual period or is that just what you're measuring? Because it's easy. Like utilization is easy. Right.

[Justin]

We were talking about this last night.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Black and white.

[Aaron]

I can measure that. And so I'm just gonna become an absolute maniac when it comes. And that's good. I do think, like, utilization and keeping up on your utilization is important. I think there's a lot of underutilized machines out there.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And so I do think there are companies that can reduce their equipment costs through renting and by, by, by more carefully looking at their utilization. But there, there are, there's, like, there's costs to it as well. And it's, it's, it's. It's almost like, you know, I'm, I'm Mr. Company. They don't come at it this way, but it's like I'm Mr. Company or equipment manager. I know best here. Our people don't know what's best when it comes to equipment because I'm the equipment manager. This is my job.

[Justin]

I'm the fleet manager.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I am the king of equipment Hill. And I just, I've been doing it for 32 years and I know what the heck's going on here. And it's almost like you just don't trust your people and involve them in the decision at all. Like, hey, you have no ownership of the tool you're going to be using for 12 hours a day. Yeah, that sucks.

[Justin]

That really sucks.

[Aaron]

That really sucks. Like, like who? You know, you go to the equipment manager. Like, listen, I might just change out your computer today. Oh, sorry.

[Justin]

Yeah. Hey, new fleet management software.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

We're just, we're going to something else.

[Aaron]

Yeah. New software and then next week. Ah, no, we didn't like it. We're just going to change it back, actually. Or, or, or give you the old software, but with half the features, like shittier version or, you know, you're just.

[Justin]

And that button doesn't work, so don't worry about that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. You're just yanking stuff around.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It sounds silly, but it's like that is how it is. Like, it's, it's. Especially somebody in a machine landscaping. You're in and out of equipment a little bit more. Yeah, it's more, it's more of a tool.

[Justin]

Yeah. A little more hand work, you're going to.

[Aaron]

Yeah, more hand work. But, but in, you know, in a heavy equipment world, you can be in that machine 12 hours a day, sometimes seven days a week.

[Justin]

Yeah. That's intense.

[Aaron]

You better like it or else that's a miserable existence.

[Justin]

Yeah, no, it goes back to the mental health thing. Right. Like, if you're just having to do that because you have a family to feed and rent to pay, and you're kind of locked in. And a lot of people are really afraid to leave their job because the promise of another job. You're like, last guy in is the first guy laid off.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So if you're tenured and you got five, seven, ten years at a company and it's kind of miserable, I think a lot of people stay there because it is job security, knowing that if things get slow, you're probably still going to be working. If you go to a new company, maybe you make a little more money, nicer equipment, what have you. If that job goes out or if we slow down, you're probably going to be one of the first guys laid off.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And so I think that keeps people into positions where they don't really like. And the owners or managers of those companies, I don't want to say they do it intentionally, but they kind of know, like, this guy's probably not going to leave. So I'm not really motivated to replace the seat or fix the AC unit because, you know, if we push it a month, then.

[Aaron]

Or they just have the mentality where it's like, oh, we'll just find somebody else.

[Justin]

Oh, gosh, that's big.

[Aaron]

Yeah, we'll just. We've always found somebody else. If you don't want to run it, I don't care. We'll find somebody that does want to run it. And it's like, I don't know. I. That's not the labor market we live in right now, but that's just how they've. How they've managed workforce for, again, 30 years. So it's like, well, yep, I've done it successfully for 30 years. You're not going to. You're going to tell me it's not going to work anymore? Oh, it's going to work. I'm going to. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to will it into existence. All right, bucko.

[Justin]

Like, these are people who build things with their hands.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Oh, we'll figure it out.

[Aaron]

I have. I have more respect for people that build stuff and work with their hands. And just about anybody. It's. It's. It's because I can't do it. I don't have that skill set. I am like, the other day I changed out the wiper blades on my truck, and I was like, yeah, like, I am. I am basically a fleet mechanic at this point. Yeah. Let's go. Yeah.

[Justin]

Well done.

[Aaron]

Unclip it. You read the instructions. Okay. All right. You clip it in. You're like. And you hit the wipers and it works. You're like, nice. All right, let's go. But I just, I don't have the skill set. I didn't learn it. I want to learn it as I go.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And, and I'm excited to learn it and I'm gonna be terrible at it as I go. But I have total respect for these people because they're just non stop real world problem solvers. There's just nothing that they can't do. Like, you see that mountain over there? We're just gonna move it. It's like, what do you mean you're gonna move it? Like, no, we're not. We're just, we're going to move it and here's how we're going to move it. And then they go, move it. You're like, we're going to put. That's pretty cool.

[Justin]

They're going to blow it up.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

Okay. Okay. And they're like, no, seriously, we got the dynamite coming today.

[Aaron]

But that, I think that just sheer non stop. It's almost like bull in a china shop mentality. Like, we're just going to do it through sheer will. I'm just gonna exert my will on this and it will fold at some point. It doesn't always work. Or it's not the best strategy. And maybe it does work, but there's a cost to making it work. Yeah.

[Justin]

And what worked five years ago may not work in five years.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

Or at least to the level that you want it to work. I think if you train your team, like extensively train your team, you don't have that mindset of we'll find someone else. Because your team becomes your, your, your people who are with you for four or five years become so much higher level than anyone else in the workspace.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

That you're like, it's going to take me. I have to find an A player. Then I have to train them for two or three years just to get back to where I am today with this team member. So you treat your team way better when you train your team.

[Aaron]

It does. It takes years.

[Justin]

It does.

[Aaron]

It takes years with people. Yeah. I. The notion that you can train and develop somebody into what you need them to be in 30 days, I think is a joke. It's, it's, it's a years. I was, I was reflecting on this the other day. It's a years long process. Yeah. It's a long haul for Every individual and every process is totally different. For every person, it's different. And some people catch on faster. But it's still just a long process to develop people, especially experienced people. I think they're the hardest.

[Justin]

I was just gonna say it's a.

[Aaron]

Different kind of hard. Yeah, it's a different hard. I think with a young person, you have to give them life skills. Cause they haven't gotten those anywhere else.

[Justin]

I've learned to build the foundation.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. You really do have to start with the bas, because they just, from what I've seen, they haven't gotten it. Which is fine. I'm gonna work with that.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And I'm gonna learn how to give them those basics. That's gonna make them better. That's gonna make me better. But then the experienced people are a whole different. You've gotta almost remove the foundation.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

It's like, instead of building, it's demolition. Like, it's. You've got to get the. Get the hammer out and start just chipping away. And. And sometimes that foundation is real big. There's a lot of baggage, There's a lot of abuse. There's a lot of trauma that you've got to chip away at before they really open up. Yeah. But I feel like you get this tremendous loyalty from both sides. If you pour into somebody from a young, young person's perspective. And it does take a while. They have to have the patience to see it. But. But if they do see, like, wait a minute, I'm actually better and I'm actually making more money and I'm not as much of a shithead. And, you know, I'm better at home or whatever. Like, I'm better off being here. I'm just gonna. Let's just keep doing this. And then the other people are like, they have the benefit of experience. Hey, I've been in some shitty worlds. I had no idea it could be this way.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't want to go back.

[Justin]

Yeah. We try to get those people to share because the. The people who are experienced are like, wow, this is amazing. I didn't know there was a company out there that existed like this.

[Aaron]

They have a lot more. They have more patience.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And more understanding.

[Justin]

They have a comparison.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Of like, how shitty it was. And the new people, like, you know, I'll shout out Rudy here. Rudy's hitting his four years this Saturday. And he came straight out of college. We were his first job. He was an engineer major. And he has become an estimator and salesperson in our residential Construction division. But learning how to estimate is so much more than math. He could do the math. He was great at the math. And he's like, what do you mean we need more time? I just bit a paver patio over here. And I use the same production rates. Yeah. But really over here is rock.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

And we got to demo this and we got to do that. And he's starting to understand the artistic side of estimating.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Which an experienced person would understand that, but they may not agree with the methodology of how you go about estimating. So you have to like, you have to untrain some of the experience stuff and then you have to build that foundation of the inexperienced stuff.

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Justin]

But to Rudy's point, I mean, we're at the four year mark and just last week he was saying, I feel more comfortable about actually making decisions about how much, how many hours we need to demo this concrete driveway or to, you know, crane in these trees behind a house. Because where does the crane set up and how do we mark out the road and all that kind of stuff.

[Aaron]

That must be a site.

[Justin]

Oh my gosh.

[Aaron]

Because the yards you're working in, there's not a lot of space.

[Justin]

No, it's incredible. I mean, some of These backyards are 13,000 square feet, you know, like, like a quarter acre. And we're doing a million dollars worth of installation. We got a pool, we got all these big trees. And everyone wants it done when we're done.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So they want to bring in the big trees, the twenty thousand dollar tree. They want to bring in the, you know, the, the lighting. They want to bring in everything they want. They want the whole thing.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And so their outdoor space becomes the place they, they actually live. They want the outdoor kitchen with all the heaters and the fans so they can be out there 365 days a year. And California is beautiful for it. I mean, we have great weather.

[Aaron]

Great weather. And those trees up there, those especially the redwoods.

[Justin]

Well, dude, in Aptos there is the tallest tree, the oldest tree, and the white, the long, the biggest diameter tree.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

All in the same small little county in the entire world. We just happen to have all of those. And they're all redwood trees.

[Aaron]

They're beautiful trees. Yeah. The woods up there, it's just gorgeous.

[Justin]

It's incredible.

[Aaron]

But yeah, I. And that, and that's where I think people fall victim. They try to get the experienced people because they think that's a shortcut. I'm like, it's not a shortcut. And you need experienced people you need inexperienced people. You need people in the middle.

[Justin]

You do.

[Aaron]

I think there's a huge value in a mix. And that's where the whole diversity thing's been hijacked. It's like, no, the traditional DE and I thing's dog shit.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

I want legitimate diversity, which is people. One category of that is people just with different experience at different age levels. They all have something really, really special to add. But the effort involved in developing each one of those categories I don't think is any different. Like, the effort is not different. I think you have to apply the effort in different ways. But I don't, I don't think the effort is any less with each category.

[Justin]

You know, I think that's a great point. And I do think that leaders underestimate the amount of training and time that is needed on the experienced people. They hire them, say 100%. Oh, these people are experienced.

[Aaron]

Yeah, they're good. Let's just wind them up, Let them go. They're gonna be good to go. And they might know how to put in a driveway better than anybody. Yeah, but they can also come in. They're not. But they're doing it their way or the right way. They've always been doing it, which might not at all be your way. And they can come in and again, they just be that bull in a china shop and just. And they can fuck up stuff quick. Like, I think those people can fuck up stuff faster and faster in a much bigger way than somebody inexperienced is my opinion as well. And, but it's, but. And I say that it's not in as black and white ways either. Somebody inexperienced could flip the skid steer and you can sit there and be like, yeah, this was, this was a major boo boo, man. You didn't.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You had no idea what you're doing. You're like, yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. You could see that. You can measure that. Whereas the more experienced people, they can inflict damage in unseen ways from a resentment standpoint, culture standpoint, relationship, customer relationship stamp. Like there's all kinds of stuff that can, that can happen there.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If you don't really work with those individuals as well.

[Justin]

Oh my gosh. And we argue about this at our, at our company is an experienced person comes in and they have a proven way of doing something and it's arguably a great way of doing it. But we have a standard operating process of how we, how we compact, you know, base rock, or we use class two, or we just use drain rock instead of class two base rock. Because for whatever reason, that's how we do it. And they come in, they're like, no, we're going to do it like this. And arguably, maybe their way is better. But should we try to do it in the best way possible every time based on who's on the job site, or should we have a standard that is the K and D way that every single paver patio, we do the exact same across our entire platform? And so we're kind of in this weird balance of what should we do? We've leaned to system, systemization, Systemization and process over. Maybe just like the experienced person saying, this is his way and it's the best way. But it's a. It's a constant argument because arguably our SOP may not be the best way.

[Aaron]

Oh, but. But that's where that understanding from both sides comes into play. Like, you have to have the understanding of, like, well, maybe there is a better way. You can't just force your way down their throat. But then they also have to understand there's a system here for a reason, and here's why there's a system. It's not. It's not me just making up rules to make your life worse. Like, that's not what we're trying to do here. We're trying to make it better for everybody. And here's how we got here. Like, even. Even that kind of conversation, it doesn't happen all the time. No, but it's not. That's not that hard of a conversation. It just doesn't. Like, the time isn't allotted for a conversation like that.

[Justin]

That's where resentment builds in, and then.

[Aaron]

You'Ve got the resentment built. Yeah.

[Justin]

Just listen. One of our fundamentals is listen generously. So when someone has an idea, you don't even have to use the idea. Just listen to it and acknowledge it and say thank you. You know, appreciate that. We're gonna take into consideration. For now, let's just use a standard process, but we're gonna take that back and let's talk about it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's huge. And even talking about it like, hey, explain to me how you've done it. Yeah, okay. All right. Well, but, you know, the way we do it is this. So have you thought about. Have you thought about that? And you can have that conversation. So even if the SOP remains, they've at least you've listened to them. You've legitimately considered their feedback. They feel legitimately considered, and you're both better off for it. Like, even if status quo remains, like, there's. There's still. There's still value being like resentment, it's a. It's a tricky mistress. It. It weasels its way into all kinds. And I've been there a hundred times over recently. Like, and. And I've tried to. I've tried to recognize it a little faster because it. It's this. It's like this. This poison. It poisons the vessel that holds it in a way. Like, it just poisons you. It just corrodes you from the inside out. And this. Quicker you can recognize it, the faster you can deal with it. But then the deeper it comes, the more it builds it. It's like weight loss or anything. Like, the deeper you get in, the harder it is to get back out. You've got to be really, really careful with it. And I've tried to. Even recently, I notice myself going down the path of resentment. I'm like, hey, hey, hey, hey. I see what's going on here. Now let's start backing up, because this is a treacherous path, especially when you.

[Justin]

Are an owner leader. You're putting in all this time, and then you're just like, why doesn't my team appreciate it? You know, they. All they do is complain or a customer sucks. Customer sucks. Clients bitch. You know, I mean. But I think the best antidote for resentment is inspiration, is having that big vision of, this is where we're going. And then I love when we can change an SOP because of someone. And it was like, hey, you know, Amy mentioned this thing. We took it in consideration. We decided to change the SOP on how we do X, Y, and Z. We republish it, and we give her some credit, and everybody's stoked, and they're like, whoa, that actually happens here. And now that person's a advocate of that process forever, basically. So the more you can take feedback and actually use that feedback to do something with it, you'll continue to get feedback. But if you just listen to feedback and you never take action, your team's gonna, at some point, stop telling you everything that's broken.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I've. I've fallen victim that I have to catch myself all the time dismissing something.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Like, even. Even in your head, you know, it's like, that's a fucking dumb idea. Like, it's still worth.

[Justin]

Someone says something.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. It's still worthless. Like, I have to catch myself dismissing something halfway through. Like, what am I doing? Why? Like, why? Because they. I might not catch the other half, and they might have A point. You know, they might be going somewhere.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They might be right here. So that one, I just get defensive. And then two, it just signals to them, like, they don't. Aaron doesn't give a shit about what I think.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And, yeah, I catch myself doing that, like, daily. It's bad. But I think you can also resent, like, going back to California. You're in California, and you can sit here and you can. You can bitch about the state of California all day long, and it changes absolutely nothing. And I know a friend of mine, he runs a very successful construction company in the state, and he's always been like, listen, California, it sucks to do business in, but if we figure it out, it keeps other people out.

[Justin]

Dude, that's the moat.

[Aaron]

It's the moat. It's like he just inverts it. Like, well, if we can just play the game, we're. We can just be better than everybody else, and we're gonna win the game. That's like. That's a. That's a really good way to look at it. Like, you can sit there every day just cursing the state of California, but it will just drive you insane.

[Justin]

There's no benefit there.

[Aaron]

No, there isn't.

[Justin]

Like, if you want to act, get active, go to Sacramento.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

Like, great.

[Aaron]

All right. All right, Gavin, we need to. We need to do some things differently. I don't know. I don't know if Gavin's gonna listen to.

[Justin]

I don't think so, because you got Silicon Valley spending a lot of money on lobbyists, and you just get lost in the shuffle. But I have the same mindset with California because our team lives in California. We work in California. Hey, we work for the government. You know, 20, 30% of our revenue some years comes from public works contracts. So let's not badmouth one of our biggest clients.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

Let's see how can we leverage that relationship. And then with private equity coming in the space, private equity, if they can pick from Texas or California or Florida, they're going to take Texas and Florida over California every day of the week. So we have this, again, defensible moat. And as private equity has came in and recently, two big companies have bought in Sacramento and LA in the last six months. It's like, welcome in and let's. We're going to destroy you. Because we've been here a lot longer. We know the market, we know the challenges.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And we built our business around this.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

As we expand other states. Nevada, Arizona, Texas, as we plan to New Mexico. I think we're going to crush it because we built everything on the California pain in the ass factor.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So we go to Nevada and it's like, oh, wow, this is nice.

[Aaron]

We can run. You've played at a higher level from a. Just logistical.

[Justin]

We're in the varsity leagues and we get to go play down in JV for a game.

[Aaron]

Definitely true.

[Justin]

And you know, our linebackers are just going to crush those guys, so, I mean, we'll see how that works. But I definitely agree with that mindset. Lean into it.

[Aaron]

No, it's really good. And whenever I go to California too, I'm like, oh, this isn't so bad. I get it. Like, if it wasn't California, I'd be here all the time.

[Justin]

I know. True.

[Aaron]

I would be all. This is nice. Yeah, I love this. If it weren't for like all the people, this would be great.

[Justin]

Yeah, just like swap the people out.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Great state, you know.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You got to find your tribe, you know, in these areas. We've talked about it last night. Like, some of California people don't realize it is super country. Like, people ride horses, shoot guns and have dirt bikes as modes of transportation in the Central Valley.

[Aaron]

Oh, it's pretty like. But that, that would. The, the, the election map was wild. Seeing a majority of California's red by, by, by district because, yeah, it's, it's very country. Even on the coast, like you go.

[Justin]

Like Central coast, San Luis Obispo and that area through there, Santa Maria. Super country.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Like, like slow. Has this, like the. Downtown's this little bubble because of the university and like every university, like anything. But then, yeah, you go a little bit outside of that. It's like, oh, this is pretty Western out here. And it's kind of weird. Like, this is. People are just, they're just living like, this isn't California. I know.

[Justin]

Yeah. So different. You go up into Northern California, up into the hills. Again, not Tahoe, but 50 miles in any direction where it's super remote. It is some of the most beautiful country in the world.

[Aaron]

Oh, it's gorgeous.

[Justin]

And it's super quiet and you get out in the middle of nowhere. But people don't see that part of California online.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You know, you see la, San Francisco.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I honestly think, like, I hate California as much as the next guy, but I think people are unfair to California too. And these are the people that haven't been to California in like 13 years. Or they went as a kid and they've seen it on the news. Like, oh, Everybody's just shitting in the streets. Like, okay, I was in San Francisco December. So relatively recently, I go back in a few weeks.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And the whole time I was like, all right, I'm not too proud to admit. Like, it's kind of nice.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, I'm in a nice area. I'm not hanging out the Tenderloin. Like.

[Justin]

Yeah, just don't go to those.

[Aaron]

Just go. Don't go to the really shitty areas because, yeah, there are people shitting in the streets, et cetera. Like, it. It is true. However, that's not really, like, the whole state of affairs. Like, you. You go to the parts. Like, I was running around the Presidio, and it's like, this is beautiful. This is gorgeous. Like, oh, my God. And there's people everywhere, and the weather's beautiful, and it's December. Like, I could. I could spend some more time here. Yeah.

[Justin]

Yeah. As a landscaper, people really care about their plant material and their landscaping in places like the Presidio.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Like, the gardens and the. Just the trees. It's amazing. So, you know, it is. It is a nice place to operate in some respects, but my wife and I, we spent a ton of time in Florida just to kind of get out of it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

We go to Florida probably three or four times a year just to kind of go hang out with people who just are different mindsets. And honestly, a lot nicer.

[Aaron]

You can. You can tell the people that haven't got out of California in a while, it's like, yeah. Hey, you should. You should really get out of here.

[Justin]

You're, like, breathing in your own air.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Go spend a week somewhere. Like, just. Even Arizona, Nevada, like, just somewhere else. Get out. Because this is not good for you. Like, you think this is. You think that's real world? It's like, it's not. It's. That's just how. And every time I go to California, it's an adjustment for me. I'm like, whoa. Yeah, this is different. Like, these people are different. It's just. It's like it could very well be its own country in a way.

[Justin]

I think there's a lot of states who would like to see that.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think California in some ways, too. But, yeah, they're. It's also. It's. It's an. It's an economic behemoth. And people don't talk about that either.

[Justin]

No.

[Aaron]

It would be one of the world's largest economies on its own.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because of the tech companies and is the money staying there no, it's, it's counting. You know, so and so comes in. But however, you do have the world's most valuable companies all in one place.

[Justin]

You really do. It is the biggest economic. From a, from a state of the union affairs or state of the union of landscaping. It is the largest landscaping economy.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Of all 50 states.

[Aaron]

I'm sure there's some baller landscaping.

[Justin]

Incredible. I mean, dude, I mean just think of what, like Zuckerberg's house or, or you know, some of those other, you know, the, the Nvidia founders backyard. Imagine what that looks like. Like everybody needs that, everybody wants it. And so we're providing that service in that market and we're going into this very white glove offering where it's a subscription of like, hey, if you want to work with us, it's $100,000 a year on January 1st. That includes, you know, X amount of maintenance visits based on your property and da, da, da. But like you got to kind of pay to play if you want the best of the best. So we're moving into this like very high end, very luxurious, super. All the employees are uniform. Background check, the whole nine yards.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But the idea is we provide security, we provide sustainability and everything else they want.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

But there is a massive demand for very high end landscaping and ongoing. Like these guys will throw a party and they'll say, hey, we want bluestone imported from Italy for Saturday night.

[Aaron]

Yeah, who wouldn't?

[Justin]

And we're gonna fuck it up and we, we want it removed on Monday.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So it's going to be a $500,000 landscape job.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So they can sit around at the cocktail party and be like, I spent half a million on this patio and rip it out Monday.

[Aaron]

They're the only ones no one gives a shit about. No one could even tell you what a blue stone is. But they know.

[Justin]

Yeah, well, because they're on vacation in the, you know, mafia coast. They saw it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, sure. This, yeah.

[Justin]

For our party and we're like, yeah, okay, let's do it.

[Aaron]

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah.

[Justin]

And then what do you want us to do with the bluestone? I don't know.

[Aaron]

Fucking get rid of it in the ocean.

[Justin]

It's. It's wild, man. It's a different. They have so much money, they really can never spend it all. So.

[Aaron]

But that's, but that's like the rich people stuff. That's like, that's what rich people do. Like, people think rich people just buy a bunch of stuff. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, they've already bought all the stuff. Yeah, like, they've, they've, they're past that point. They have to do that kind of shit where it's like, I'm going to go import a bunch of bluestone for a party like that. That, to me, makes perfect. Like, I would, I would never dream of such a thing. That's, that's, it's a little much, but I understand how these people work. And, and they do it so that they can say, check out this bluestone. Do you know where this bluestone's from? It's from. Well, when we were on the Amalfi coast, you know, a little bit ago, I saw this quarry up on the hill and I met the owner at the bakery and, you know, as I was having my croissants and said, I need some of your bluestone and had these folks install it. And, and I'm, I'm not, I don't even want it here. I actually like grass better, but I want it, you know, it's like, but that. Anyway, it's, it's. I, I, I, I love California landscaping, too. Not to get into the weeds of landscaping, but I, I love landscaping. Like, I don't have a yard.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it sucks. I'm just counting down the days so that I can have a beautiful yard. I am such a big fan, but I love California landscaping, especially because you can have succulents.

[Justin]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

And you can have, it's just like this amazing. You can have this beautiful greenery, you can have these beautiful trees. And then you can have like a cactus garden and not a cactus garden. I know it's not.

[Justin]

No, but you could.

[Aaron]

But you could. But, but you can have it all.

[Justin]

Cactus grow in California.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. You can have grasses and cactus, like, all in the same, all in the same palette. And I think it's so the juxtaposition between yes and now I'm using big, big words.

[Justin]

You're really getting into the architectural design intent.

[Aaron]

What can I say? I'm Mr. Landscape Architect, but I just, I love it. It makes for some really beautiful, really beautiful landscaping.

[Justin]

It does. And, and it is cool where in some, in some climates, you can only grow certain things. In ours, specifically in, in the Santa Cruz County, Monterey Bay area, literally everything will grow there.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah. So much moisture.

[Justin]

Mediterranean.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Desert style. Natives. I mean, you could do anything. And it'll. With the right care and fertilizer and soil conditioning, you can grow anything, really. Fruit, obviously, you probably, your strawberries probably came from Watsonville.

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Justin]

You know, if you go look at the supermarket.

[Aaron]

Oh yeah. This time, this time of year too.

[Justin]

Right now?

[Aaron]

Yeah, right now. May strawberries.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In California. I'm going to be gorging myself in a few weeks. Just loading.

[Justin]

Yeah, you got it.

[Aaron]

And then every. Yeah, you get a big. And then you eat it all and then you feel like the rest is like, why did I eat so many strawberries? I didn't need to eat a crate of strawberries. But they were $7 from, from, you know, one on the side of the road, the roadside.

[Justin]

They were picked that morning.

[Aaron]

I could not. Yeah, but it is beautiful because. And then you have the, you have the woods. Like it's such a shame. So many people over the hill down in the Bay area, San Jose, Silicon Valley area. It's like you don't even know you guys are there and it's not that far. Like driving from San Jose to Santa Cruz, 30 minutes. It's pretty quick traffic. Yeah. With no traffic at the right time of day. But just getting up over the hill and just in the woods, you go through and then the woods come down into the bay and the Monterey Bay is, It's the Monterey Bay, like incredible. Come on. It's one of the most beautiful and diverse wildlife sanctuaries, like marine wildlife sanctuaries in the United States, in North America. This place, it's just to have it all in the same world and then you go up the coast to like, what is it, Corona or.

[Justin]

Yeah, well, you got Davenport and Pacifica.

[Aaron]

Pacifica. Pacifica. And see.

[Justin]

Yeah, Half Moon Bay.

[Aaron]

I was mixing beers up.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I knew. Yeah. Pacifica. And then Half Moon Bay is. First time I went to Half Moon Bay, I'm like, how have I never heard about this place? This is crazy. And I can't afford, I couldn't afford to spend more than like two hours there.

[Justin]

Yeah, it'll, it'll just drain your. You just see your bank account.

[Aaron]

Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, your bank account, whether you're spending money or not is going down the more time you like that.

[Justin]

And car net worth is just dropping.

[Aaron]

They do it to kind of chase you out of there. Like, hey, you don't have enough money to be here.

[Justin]

Yeah, it's like, it's like 30,000 a day kind of thing.

[Aaron]

But it's, it's, it's gorgeous.

[Justin]

Yeah, it's incredible.

[Aaron]

Absolutely gorgeous.

[Justin]

The Carmel Valley is a place that is super magical and it's where all the movie stars have houses where they don't ever want to Be bothered.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But the really rich ones, the really rich. You've got to be Brad Pitt. You've got to be. Yeah, yeah. Not. This isn't.

[Justin]

No, this is. This is. You're spending $30 million on a house and it's not even done yet.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You know you got 10 million in change orders coming through.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And it's 45 minutes from the gate to your house.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

That's an incredible thing. Not too many people take into consideration. Like you have the gate and you're 45 minutes away from your home and that's your road that you built. And that's just, that's. And then the fire prevention and stuff. I mean.

[Aaron]

Yeah. The fire stuff's interesting.

[Justin]

It is. Yeah. I listen to your podcast on the. The dozers and the fire and Cal fire and everything. It's a really interesting world right now in California when it comes to fires.

[Aaron]

It's interesting. Is putting it nicely. It's funny also seeing how everybody is a forest fire expert. Every. Everybody knows everything about forest fires and they, if they were in charge, they could, they could, they could prevent every forest fire ever. Easy, easy. They know. Exactly. You just have to manage your forests, you morons. You just need more water, you morons. Yeah, you need more, you need more firefighters. Like this is easy. Guys, Come on. It's. It's not that simple. But part of it is self inflicted.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

So there definitely is a lot of politics at play.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it hasn't been a huge problem until the past like decade when the insurance companies are started to really pay for it and have started to say, we just don't want to insure you anymore. Yeah, we're good, we're good. I. I'm well, no, can we just have. I just need home insurance. Like. Nah, can't do it. Sorry. Like I just. Your $7 million home up on the hill, surrounded by beautiful redwoods. It'd be a shame something were to happen. But.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

We just can't help you. And I think that's when it started to become a conversation politically because now you have these rich people buying these nice homes that can't insure them.

[Justin]

Yep. And the value of homes. Right. It's not like we're talking about $500,000 homes. Seven, ten, fifteen million dollar homes. So the insurance company looks at their, you know, this risk factor and so California decided we'll step in, we'll provide an insurance service for anyone who's uninsured.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

We'll fund it with $250 million sure. So that means like what, 30, 40 homes?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Even the Palisades, like even though.

[Aaron]

Yeah, the whole Palisades LA thing will be like 250 billion. But other than that.

[Justin]

Yeah, that's a, that's a blip.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's. But guys, best we can do. Like, like listen, we got it. Yeah. We've got this high speed rail to build.

[Justin]

You know, we took 0.01% of our GDP and we put that in the insurance.

[Aaron]

It's the best we can do.

[Justin]

We need to build the rail. Oh, that's do. We could talk about California politics.

[Aaron]

But, but you, what you were saying is from a landscaping standpoint, you can do things to defend.

[Justin]

Absolutely.

[Aaron]

Against this.

[Justin]

Absolutely.

[Aaron]

What can you do? Well, cut everything down, a defensible space.

[Justin]

Build a big concrete wall, Give the firefighters a chance.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So like we go to this HOA recently and it's a 180 home community and I immediately am just like, oh my gosh, like every house, maybe 90% of the houses had a tree touching it. Like, how do you expect the firefighters to save your home if a tree is touching your roof?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So a lot of people have just deferred maintenance. They planted a pretty little tree 30 years ago, and now that tree is 40ft tall and hanging over your roof and probably beautiful. And it is beautiful.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But it's like, is that the best thing to be next to your house or should we have the tree maybe 30, 40ft away or at least 20ft away where you have a defendable area? And so a lot of these homes are just, you know, they just don't have any defensible space. But at the same time, you have these fires that are almost unstoppable with the way the embers fly and the roof material and the decking material. The chances of your house getting obliterated during some of these, these fire events is pretty high. Even with that defensible space.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But you have to do what you can. And I think the biggest thing is communities, HOA specifically, a lot of them in California, they can do a better job of creating a moat or a defensible space around their community.

[Aaron]

I see.

[Justin]

So yeah, you have 180 homes. Let's just try not to let the fire in. So let's do a 30, 40 foot.

[Aaron]

Fire buffer, just manage it right away.

[Justin]

Spring the dozers in. And then the problem is though, California steps in, says, hey, you can't actually. Yeah, there's this area. There's a salamander.

[Aaron]

Yeah. There's A salamander? Yes. Yeah, we saw one a few years ago.

[Justin]

Yeah, like 1982.

[Aaron]

Yeah, we're building it and yeah, we've we there one. There could be one out here. And so you, you can't touch that tree. Yeah, you can't even look at that tree.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

What are you looking at that. Hey, don't even, don't even think about it, buster.

[Justin]

You need a permit and that's dead on arrival.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you might get in 13 years depending on your attorney, but so.

[Justin]

Self inflicted is a good description.

[Aaron]

And that's. I was talking with a, I don't want to say specific fire agencies because they're a government agency, but the guys at these, these government agencies and that's one of the big things is like they can't even cut firebreaks. Yeah, it's the red cut because of the environmental side of things. And it's like, okay, all right, okay, okay. So does a fire break, does taking a bulldozer to a strip of the woods or whatever here impact the ecology? Yes, it does, absolutely, 100%. However, does this entire area burning, does that impact the ecology a little bit more? I would say it does. You know, we've got some trade offs here. Like, did your, you building a home here? Like, where's your home built? Where do you live? Did that impact the ecology? Like, what was there before?

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh, another home. But yeah, but what was there before? Like, can we. Yeah, it just, it pains me for the people. And the worst thing is the, the comments on these videos and the stuff we've done, just the hate from people saying like, these people deserve it. Yeah, they, they deserve to get everything burned to the ground. And it's like, really? Right, really, somebody deserves to get their entire home burned to the ground? Like to, for, for like no one deserves that. Like, what are you talking about?

[Justin]

How rich you are?

[Aaron]

Yeah. How fucking human is that? Yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's crazy. But, but what they were saying was like, like they can't. Like it sucks because the fire agencies are the one, they're the scapegoats.

[Justin]

Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

And, and everybody was talking about how the fire budget was cut in la, but it's like it really wasn't on a percentage basis cut that much. And the firefighters were saying, like, listen, we could have all the money we wanted. We weren't stopping this thing. There's nothing we can do about it. It's just, it's, it's such a Bad position to be in.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That they're. It's like a knife to a gunfight. Like, listen, we have knives and you can buy us as many fucking knives as you want. They've still got guns. Like, the fire is still gonna. It's still gonna beat us and they're getting their asses kicked. I think everybody knows it.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it doesn't have to be that way.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which is. It's just a bu. It bums me out. It really bums me out.

[Justin]

It's the. You know, we have talked about consistency throughout this whole podcast and just like the, the idea of just doing small things every day. And that's one thing I think California has not done a good job at, of keeping up, is just keeping those forests in a manageable state.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Just to manage them.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Up in Stanislaus National Forest, where we have a cabin, they are fantastic up there. We haven't had a big fire, knock on wood for a very long time. And the last one we had, they were able to manage it because they go in half a mile from every neighborhood and every house and they clear the forest. They full on clear the forest. They log it. They clear it. And it's a nice defensible space and it's a beautiful forest. And then as you get deeper in, it gets to the point where it's very thick and natural. But because it's a national forest national, they can play by different rules.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

The state parks and the state managed property. Completely different story. And it's nothing against the, the teams and the agencies that manage that.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Justin]

It's coming from, From Sacramento.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

It's a shame.

[Aaron]

And it's not even coming from Sacramento. It's coming from these insane environmental groups, lobbies, etc, like, these people are nuts. And they're the ones exerting the pressure, which then, well, you know, I'm Mr. Politician. I go where the wind blows. Like, I don't do what's right. I go wherever the money's at. And if the money's over here, I'm going over here. Like, yeah, we've got a salamander over there, guys. Like, we can't, we can't manage our forest. Come on.

[Justin]

And it seems like those types of people are some of the best at raising money.

[Aaron]

Oh, they're really good. Because it's, it's, it's a very popular thing. Like, they want to cut our damn forest down.

[Justin]

Let's save the planet.

[Aaron]

We need to save the forest. They want to cut them down. These crazy people. They Want to cut everything down. Here's a picture.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

This is what it. This is what your backyard is going to look like if you let these. And then it's like, take my money.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh, my God. I don't want the forest to be cut down. It's like you're appealing to that human nature. And in such a. And the most sinister thing is like, they think they're doing the best. They think they're doing what's right, too.

[Justin]

They're not doing it from a place of like, they're doing it from a place where they think they're doing the right thing.

[Aaron]

They think they're doing the right thing.

[Justin]

They really do.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Justin]

They just think that everyone else doesn't know better, but they really have. True. You talk to these people, they really feel like they're doing the right thing.

[Aaron]

But. But a managed forest is more beautiful.

[Justin]

I Stanislaus National Forest. It's. It's incredible.

[Aaron]

You go to national parks, they're all managed.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

They're very pretty.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

A lot of people go to them like, well, wait a minute. This isn't natural. It's like. No, they manage these. They manage the hell out of these because they've had some big fires and they're trying to prevent that stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's. And it's all time. Like you were saying, you have. You need that. And as I was talking to these firefighters as well, it's like it's all about. They were like, everything's about time.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So if you've got a tree sitting against your house, your time's at zero.

[Justin]

No chance.

[Aaron]

No chance. But if you get rid of the tree, you get a little bit of space. That's just time. Which then gives you the ability to maybe turn the sprinklers on.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you can. But you can probably defend too. With what? Based on what you plant. Is that true?

[Justin]

Oh, for sure. There's. There's what's called fire wise planting.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So like a succulent versus just a. A dry shrub. The succulent's not going to like, catch fire.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

Where the shrub's just gonna. It's gonna go up like tender. So depending. And it kind of works out like the first five feet around your house. Ideally, if you're in a fire prone area, you're using rock or another type of hard material, steel, whatever, just having a nice barrier. And then from there you go to a little more plants. But trying to keep it to succulents. Low fire.

[Aaron]

It doesn't have to look like a prison. Like, you know, make it look very pretty.

[Justin]

It can look beautiful. You can do this contemporary, you can do this modern, but you should have fire in mind when you're doing a design and then you kind of build out to 100 foot barrier of what your plants and everything else. And some people don't have that much space on their property, but for the majority of the people in the woods who have those homes, they do have the space. And I think when you and I again, I do talk to a lot of these firefighters. I have some buddies who do it. And I mean, they'll tell me, they drive up a street and the fire's coming up and they look at the house saying, there's no fucking way. We're not even going to try to save that house. Oh, that house. You can tell they've spent money. They've cleared around it 100ft. Like we're going to base camp there.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

So when you see that a neighborhood has 10 homes and two of them didn't burn down, I will. I'm not saying the firefighters are picking and choosing, but they will decide what is actually savable.

[Aaron]

But they have to.

[Justin]

They have to.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

For their own safety.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. For their, for their sake of their lives, they have to go to what is least likely to burn.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's interesting. No, it. The other thing too, that I'm sure is like even more in your conversations is the whole drought tolerance conversation.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Because water's a big deal out there.

[Justin]

Water's a big deal. And it creeped up on people.

[Aaron]

You sure?

[Justin]

It creeped up on cost?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And so we just had our fourth annual water summit. And so we do a Central coast water summit every year. Because everybody talks about water, but very few people talk about water as it pertains to landscaping and outdoor ornamental irrigation.

[Aaron]

Which is probably the biggest use.

[Justin]

We're about 8 to 10% of the. Of the water use.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Justin]

But it's a. That's a big percentage considering ag is 20 to 30%. Sure.

[Aaron]

But if I own a house.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Is it the majority of my water usage? It could be.

[Justin]

It could be. It totally depends on your garden.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You have a big garden, a big property that you like to keep irrigated. Oh, for sure. It could be the majority.

[Aaron]

Oh, I want a soccer field in the backyard.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

My kid plays soccer twice a year, but I want it. Yeah.

[Justin]

And so. And again, billionaire row, they don't care about water costs.

[Aaron]

No, no, no.

[Justin]

So they're just like, keep everything Amazing.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

But the state's starting to say we don't have enough water to keep it. Amazing. So we're gonna ration you. And, and that's where there's this big fight going on right now with, with allocation of water. And if you go through the Central Valley right now in the ag world, you'll see a lot of almond fields that had been removed because they didn't. They literally estate said, sorry, you don't get water this year. And they, they can't farm without water.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I, my friend Josh, I'm going to see him in a few weeks. Yeah. He tears out the almond trees.

[Justin]

Yeah, it's. That's a great business actually. Right now.

[Aaron]

He's doing great, but it's unfortunately. But he's not happy about it because he's tearing stuff out. They're not planting on these fields.

[Justin]

No.

[Aaron]

Because they can't, they can't afford. They don't have the water. It just doesn't, it doesn't math. So you have these huge swaths of the Central valley. Oh, it's unplanted.

[Justin]

Unplanted. And then what, what do they want to do? They want to build houses there. Again, it just leads to a weird and somewhat terrible economic position. I'm all for new houses, but at some point you got to decide like, where does agricultural stop and houses start?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

But going back to the landscape side of things, what we're seeing is an example is Santa Clara water. Their rate used to be $2.99, like not too long ago, like five, six years ago for, for one unit, which is about 775 cubic feet of water. Okay, so it's like.

[Aaron]

That's quite a bit.

[Justin]

Yeah, it's quite a bit of water. $3, not a big deal. Well, it is, it is now gone up where we. It will go from $7.99 to $9.99 July 1st. That's a huge jump. So someone was at $3 six years ago. Six, seven years ago. Like, like late 20 teens.

[Aaron]

Three times.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Justin]

And some districts have gone up not as much. Others have exploded based on the availability of water and the cost of delivering water. As you probably have noticed, infrastructure replacement is a huge issue in any city right now because they built it in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and now it's time to replace that 30 year infrastructure. And so that's increasing the cost of delivery. But the biggest thing that we see is people turn on their irrigation controllers in spring and everything gets watered for 10 minutes three times. A week with no real scientific approach. Just everything's watered for 10 minutes three times a week. That's just what we've always done. This what we're going to do and that's starts in spring and then they turn it off in winter. So we kind of have this like three to four month period where it's not watering. But during the summer our weather is variable. Some days will be 85, some days will be 55.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

And the ability to put in a cellular connected controller that simply takes into consideration the water or the weather from that day, adjusts the controller that night from 10 minutes to 1 minute will automatically we see a minimum 30% savings.

[Aaron]

That's interesting.

[Justin]

Of just a regularly old fashioned controller.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's not even, it's not doing anything fancy. It's just like, hey, it's raining today. We don't need to put a bunch of water.

[Justin]

No. It's been foggy for a week. So we haven't watered. And we just did an analysis of this, this big property and we found out they were spending roughly 140,000 a year on water.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Justin]

Not including meter fees. This is the HOA 140 GS that's a big line item on their P and L. It's the biggest. Right below the cost of the maintenance provider. So we're more expensive on a monthly amount in terms of our services we provide. But we guarantee we'll save them 30% of the first year. So we're going to save them 40 to 50,000. And that doesn't include the increase that's coming and then the increase that's coming in three years and the increase that's coming in five years.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Justin]

So our, our selling point today is, is hey, we know we're going to be, let's just say $5,000 a month more than your current maintenance company. But because we're going to provide all of this, we guarantee we'll save you $5,000 in water. And so they're like, you guarantee it? Like guarantee it. And so because we can save them enough money on water, we can now actually do a legit good job at landscaping.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

We could do really high end work. We can pay our guys way better. We can actually use all electric equipment. So we went all electric on all of our equipment. Little more expensive in the front end. Way better experience for the homeowners. You don't hire that blower.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You know, screaming down the alley at.

[Aaron]

8Am how the water, water things Quite, quite interesting. I remember as a Kid, I was in Phoenix, Arizona and you'd see, you know, on the, on the three days a year it would rain. My, my, my dad would be running out to try to figure out the sprinklers would be on while it's pouring and trying to figure out the sprint. And he didn't know what the was going on. Like we had, we had the same landscaper, Pablo, for 20 years.

[Justin]

Right.

[Aaron]

Same guy.

[Justin]

He's like, how do you turn this thing off?

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. My dad was, he had no idea what's going on. But I like, that was a childhood memory. And you're looking at, you know, looking at people's lawns and sprinklers on like, oh, idiots. Like they don't need the water. Like, this is so silly. You know, as a seven year old. This is hilarious.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The electric stuff, that's. Yeah, that's another California special.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You first had these crazy emissions controls and emissions requirements. Yep. Which are being phased in pretty substantially now, especially in heavy equipment.

[Justin]

That's a big, big part of heavy equipment.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that's a big topic right now. But yeah, everybody was chuckling with California because they. What is it outlawed? Gas.

[Justin]

All motors, gas, handheld equipment, small CC equipment.

[Aaron]

So it is, it is kind of hilarious.

[Justin]

It's so dumb.

[Aaron]

It's like, it is kind of funny.

[Justin]

Let the industry progress and innovate on its own, like so. And it's so dumb because it's not outlawed. It's outlawed to sell equipment with a manufacturer date of January 1, 2024.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

And so all these guys do is the dealers just stock up on stuff that was built in 2023, which there's still plenty of it, still echo Husqvarna. They're not dumb. They've got warehouses full of this stuff. And so you go to any dealer right now and there's everything you need for gas. Everything. It's unlimited. Now. It was outlawed January 1, 2024, but so really.

[Aaron]

So 2024, January 1, 2024, 2030. No shit.

[Justin]

That is certain types of equipment. Blowers, handheld, two stroke engines, basically.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But it's not outlawed. It's just you, you can't buy anything manufactured after January 1, 2024. So it's like you still use it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. And we also go to, you can go to Reno and stock up on.

[Justin]

That's standard.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

And that's the old school industry of like, we're not changing. We're, you know, we're going to run gas until the Day we die. So we said, fuck, look, our clients care about this. They actually do care about two stroke engines versus electric engines. So we said in 2024, we said, look, let's start demoing some of this stuff. And there's this. A company called Cress K R E S S. They are owned by Positech and they're like kind of a German, Chinese, Canadian, all kind of mixed together company with different manufacturing techniques. But they came in with this really revolutionary battery system that would charge in eight minutes. Because that's the issue. Right. If you deplete the batteries quicker than it charges. You need all these batteries.

[Aaron]

Yep, yep.

[Justin]

But if you can charge it faster than you deplete it, you only need two. You just swap them out.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

And if you have charging on site. So we were demoing all these different brands. We brought Crest in and we realized our guys started coming to us saying, I know that my demo is up this week. I got a trailer full of everything. Can I keep the demo equipment for another week? Like, I really like it. And we go, wait a minute, We've never had that feedback. Everybody's like, give me my gas back.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But some of our guys were starting to say, I don't smell like fumes. At the end of the day, it's not vibrating me as much. My ears aren't ringing at night. I can't. And it's just as powerful.

[Aaron]

It is quite, very powerful.

[Justin]

It's finally.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Because it never has been, but now it's. It's equal to like the big still 650s. We got a blower that, that does 36 Newtons or whatever versus 35. So it's like the power's there, the battery's there. They have a five to six year warranty, depending on what battery you buy. So it's like the warranty's there. So we went to our team, got everybody together and said, team, what if we went all electric? And you would say 80% were like, yeah, after using this equipment, I'd be in. The other 20% were like, never. So we kind of continue to talk about it until we had about 90% of people raising their hand saying, I'm in. It was enough of a percentage for us to go to Crest and say, how can we go 100%? Because I don't like the idea of being like, this trailer is this brand and that trailer is this brand and this is still gas. We just wanted to go one brand all across and just use the same batteries. Everything's easy and we had maybe 15 to 20 crews. And so we did it. We negotiated a deal. They actually bought some of our gas powered equipment back from us to just help make the financials work. And they're just gonna, you know, dispose of it or whatever. They're gonna do whatever. We bought a bunch of new stuff, close to a million dollars worth of stuff. We financed it over five years, lined it up with a warranty, and today, as of today, we're 100% electric for all of our handheld and small mowers.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Justin]

For maintenance. It's a huge selling position for not just our clients, but also for our employees.

[Aaron]

That is. But that it's interesting how you did it.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

I think that's doing it the right way.

[Justin]

Yes. I learned from the dash cams.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah. But the example is it's someone in the office. You.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Aaron]

We should go all electric because it would make Nancy a lot happier. Yeah. And it'd make her clientele happy. Like you could have, you could have your legitimate reasons for it or. And even it's better for our people. Whatever. And then you just go do it.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And now your people are like, again, they're. They're the ones using it.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

All day, every day. Yes. Yeah. But to make it. To see if it was worthwhile and to make it their idea because it like to give it to them, see what they think, take that into consideration. Well, maybe actually this is doable and have that conversation. It's like that's. I think that's the only way to make it successful.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's interesting.

[Justin]

We. There's two other reasons we did it. One, we see a gap. Everyone's going to go electric at some point in our industry nationwide. And I know this because I have the numbers to back it up. We feel if we're the first in, then, I mean, you can pick up any landscape magazine from April and there's an article about us going all electric in it. We've just had national coverage of. Everyone wants to ask us, what is it like, how is it going? So we've got a ton of press on it, which is. Which is great. And we've created a gap where there's no one else really in our market who can say we're 100% electric. So when we're going into a bid of a HOA or even a municipality, we have that thing that differentiates us because in landscaping it's almost impossible to differentiate yourself. Everybody mows the lawn really good.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

We have good communication. Blah Blah, blah. But at the end of the day it's like what are you really differentiating? So now we have water. We can manage your water better.

[Aaron]

And we're all electric and professionalism like you said. Yeah.

[Justin]

And then we say our K and D way, which is our way of doing business, our core values, fundamentals, which goes a long way. But everyone says that who actually lives to it. So it has become a bit of a beat a drum that's kind of been beaten a lot. The other reason we went all electric is financially. We looked at the numbers, we compared the maintenance costs, the fuel costs, the filters, the oil changes everything, the mechanic and the downtime of that equipment. And it was pretty clear to us that if we did a five year finance on the electric equipment, year one, we will actually make more money than if we only had gas.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Justin]

So it's financially making sense. It gives us a strategic advantage from a clients and sales standpoint. It gives our employees a better experience in the field. So it became to us like once that data was presented, it had nothing to do with sustainability or going green or saving the planet, whatever. Like we care about that stuff a little bit. But we're here to, to provide our.

[Aaron]

Yeah, but, but like we're not, we're not going to save the world by mowing lawns.

[Justin]

No. Like we're not going to make business decisions based on that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like we understand where we sit in the world. Yeah. I, but I think that's great. Like I'm very for it when it makes good business sense and there's applications in which it makes good business sense. Like that just, even the noise alone and you just have less parts. Like it's just no belts. Yes. Yeah. There's less moving around and, but, but just the noise itself. Like landscape equipment is loud. And I, trust me, I was one of those people that's like when somebody in my neighborhood, which is, I don't really align with a lot of the people in my neighborhood. Yeah, it's, it's, it's just not the most impressive crowd in my opinion. But there are lots of electric lawnmowers and they'll be, they'll be mowing their. And it's like I want, I want to throw tomatoes at them. I do like out of my diesel truck like, like you, you, you nerd. Get out of here. But then I tried an electric weed whacker and I was like, oh, this isn't so bad. I actually like it was in Australia and They call them Whippersnippers there.

[Justin]

Oh, really?

[Aaron]

Which is a way better.

[Justin]

I love that.

[Aaron]

I'm.

[Justin]

I might steal that Whipper Snipper. Whippersn.

[Aaron]

Way, way more. Way more preferred over weed whacker. I think we rebrand because professional, they have it figured out.

[Justin]

Whippersnipper.

[Aaron]

Whippersnipper.

[Justin]

Okay.

[Aaron]

But I used it. I was like, this is great. This is fantastic. It's doing everything I needed to do.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's not loud because I've spent a lot of time with a fucking weed whacker. I spent a lot of time in Montana, just like, Acres, just. Just because, like, I feel like they were just having me whack the weeds and grass on these properties. Just like, just because it was when I was a kid. And. Yeah, they were like, all out of work.

[Justin]

Yeah, same here.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

So my dad was like, yeah, we.

[Aaron]

Have the spare property. And. Yeah, yeah, like, just clean it up.

[Justin]

A huge mower. But they're like, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whipper snipper.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. So you're. You're out there just for hours. And it's. I mean, it's. It's. It's loud. It's the vibrate. Like, it's. It's a harsh machine.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

To run for a substantial period of time. So the electric one was like. Yeah, I. I don't want to say it's better, but kind of better.

[Justin]

It's. For me, the last year.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. You kind of have to.

[Justin]

Because you stop. Everything stops. Everything's quiet.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

And then you're there. It's like me nothing versus the gas, where it's just like. Yeah. Just in the background. And I love two strokes. Like, I raced dirt bikes growing up.

[Aaron]

I love the smell of it.

[Justin]

And, yeah, when John. I have this story, it's like this image. John, our coo, came to me, and this is a guy who drives a lifted diesel truck, shoots gun and guns and drinks cruise lights on the weekends. Like, that's his idea of a good Saturday. He comes to me and says, dude, I think we should go all electric. And I'm like, what are you smoking? Like, what do you mean? Yeah, what are you talking about? I know we're in California.

[Aaron]

Are you watching cnn?

[Justin]

Yeah. Are you. Are you watching? And he's like, no, we're going to make more money and our guys are going to be happier and our clients are going to be happier. I was like, all right, I got to listen to this.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So, yeah, now we. We are almost like, we're like the, we're like the door to door church knockers. Like, we're going around and like telling everyone how great this is. And everybody's like, okay, well, if you guys did it, I should probably check it out. So there's this huge movement right now, and it's not just California. There's a guy in Atlanta, Georgia, Grayson, all electric, and he's crushing it because no one there has electric. And there are those HOAs who go from gas to electric and say, I never want to go back.

[Aaron]

But this is where I think the political class and these governments have post 2020, royally fucked some things up. Oh, yeah, royally. And they have overplayed their hand and the whole environmental thing too. They have done this so wrong because they've said, you're going to like it and if you don't like it, you're going to like it. I don't care. I'm going to put my boot on your throat. And people are like, no thanks, I'm good.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's created this us versus them, so there's no room for conversation about it. It's either I'm pro electric because that's how we're going to go save the world. And if we don't do this, all the polar bears are dead.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They're, they're, they're done, man.

[Justin]

Ice caps are going to melt.

[Aaron]

Everything. Miami, everything's going to be underwater. It's going to be a complete disaster.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which I don't subscribe to, but the other side is like, no. We're using dinosaur juice until the day we die. And our kids are going to use it and their kids are going to use it. I'm going down with the ship, baby. And I think diesel, gasoline, etc. Is a wonderful fuel that is phenomenal for a lot of things and will be phenomenal, like in perpetuity. Yeah. The whole, like we're just going to skip over the whole hybrid thing and very, very clean diesel engine thing to electric. I have a huge problem with. Because I'm like, all right, mathematically we're better off running these very, these very clean diesel engines and these hybrid, hybrid systems. Like we're skipping over something that's actually better because the technology is just not there. Supply chain is just not there.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Material science just isn't there. But for some of these applications, like smaller stuff.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It might actually make pretty good business sense. Like this is actually. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's like it doesn't have to be married to Greta. Like, it can just be better.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It can be a better technology. Like, it can just be better for people. And, and, and like, there's just no room for that conversation. It's, it's like you're on one team or the other and it's funny how both teams make fun of one another for being extreme, but it's like that's exactly what you're doing. Dumb. Dumb. Like, and it's, it's just, it's kind of ridiculous. And I've fallen victim to that too. Like I said, I want to throw tomatoes at people using electric motors because it's like, you look stupid. However, I hear you now. I've used them. Like, they're actually not so bad.

[Justin]

Not bad. I know.

[Aaron]

I like this.

[Justin]

It's a good point though. I think that's why I always say like handhelds, because obviously our excavators and our skid steers and everything are still diesel powered. And I don't see that changing.

[Aaron]

Will be for a while. Yeah.

[Justin]

Anytime soon. No, the handhelds, though. Yeah. It's just like you need a blower. How many times have you gone to start that blower in your garage and it didn't start or you're out of.

[Aaron]

You're pulling your shoulder out.

[Justin]

Yeah. Or the pulls out just breaks off in your hand. You're like, well, I'm fucked. So it's like slap a battery and you're good.

[Aaron]

Or you don't fuel. And you're like, I have to mix some.

[Justin]

Yeah. So you don't. You end up not using it that day.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You find something else to do in your yard.

[Aaron]

You're like, yeah.

[Justin]

So it's, it's. You know. But going back to your point of the government boot on the throat methodology is like the GPS units, like, they're not asking the populace, how should we go about this? What do you think? Let's try this. What's the feedback? It's, this is the way we're going to do it. And I think California, this is where they really miss. This is how we're going to do it. We decided in Congress, we decided in the, in the Capitol building, surrounded by air conditioning and in these nice fancy chairs that this is how you should be doing the construction in this city or in this state.

[Aaron]

Yep. I've never used a leaf blower, but I know where we need to take leaf blowers.

[Justin]

Never used it.

[Aaron]

No. No, no way. No way. I went to, I went to Stanford, like We don't have leaf floors of Stanford.

[Justin]

But I am coming up for reelection and I need something to put on my. Accomplish this.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

Pass this bill.

[Aaron]

No. And it plays very well to a majority of people living in big cities.

[Justin]

Look at the election map.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I get it. Like I. But that. But that. Yeah. It's just. It's not. And go figure. We're sitting here saying politics is not in everybody's best interest. Like it's not the first time it's happened. It's like since politics was invented. It's just a bummer because there's a better way to go about it. And it's because everything's been forced down people's throats over the past five years. Like people are just. Are now so quick to go the other way. Like so reactive to it. Like even on the medical stuff, it's like I'm never going to a doctor ever again. And it's like, is that best though? Like, I get it. I understand why, why you're saying that. Like totally get it. Understood.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

However, maybe there's some things a doctor can still help you with. Like there still is some value to the medical system.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But you can't. It's either you're all in and they're saving everybody and they just. Like everybody would have died if it weren't for them. Or I'm never touching a medical facility ever again in my life. The electric stuff's the same way. And it's.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I don't think the companies are doing anybody. Like the companies are singing the same tunes. The politicians are as well.

[Justin]

Oh yeah, I see.

[Aaron]

They're just not realistic about it. It's like, can you just be realistic? Like you just said, hey, we tried it. We were curious about it. It ended up being better for our people, better for our business. So we made the decision and it's better for our people and better for our business. Like. And better for. Yeah, better for our customers. Like, I don't know. That seems pretty. That seems pretty legitimate. Cool. I'm all for it.

[Justin]

Apply some common sense to it. The manufacturers see big dollar signs though because they say, oh, I get to sell you something new.

[Aaron]

For sure.

[Justin]

Your diesel powered excavator is perfect. And unfortunately we can't sell you a new one for five years.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But if I go all electric now, I can sell every single user.

[Aaron]

Well, but.

[Justin]

And the price tags.

[Aaron]

But they're not honest about it, which is my problem. They're again, they're like, they're treating Everybody, like, we're stupid. They're, they're like, no, no, no. Our customers are asking, Our customers want this. Like, this is, we're, we're just, we're just taking customer feedback into account. We're just giving the customers what it wants. Like, no, no, no, no, no. I see what the hell you're doing. Yeah. Like, the whole, the whole diesel emissions thing didn't just happen. There were conversations going on. There was money exchange, there was, there was lobbying. Like, there. It's like, come on. Yeah, it's like, I see the money you're making. Like, you're a public company. I can Google. I can Google it and within 30 seconds I can tell you, I can look at the chart and be like, well, it's good for business and good for you. You're making money, you're employing people, you're building products that build the world. Congratulations. But, like, I just have a problem with like, but you're lying to me. Yeah. And I don't appreciate that. And I think that's the whole next generation. Like, you want to do business with the companies that are honest with you. Not lying to you, not bullshitting. Like, just say what it is. Can we just, we're both in business here. We both understand what's going. Can we just, instead of like, can you drop your little PR release, please? Yeah, Like, I know the lawyers approve that. It's great. But it says nothing. It's of no use. It doesn't do us any good. So just, just put that down for a moment and let's just have a real conversation.

[Justin]

Just two humans talking. I totally agree.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

It's so interesting how that's been skewed and moved into a way of. This is what's right. This is what's best for the industry. Yes. And I get it. Like, they have a fiduciary responsibility to deliver shareholder returns year after year after year. And that gets really hard in a 100 and something year old business.

[Aaron]

And those shareholders are also dictating some things. The bigger shareholders.

[Justin]

Oh, for sure.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Oh, for sure.

[Aaron]

Just saying.

[Justin]

Yeah, that's all part of the game. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. But you mentioned the next generation coming in is questioning everything.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

To a deeper level than that ever has been questioned.

[Aaron]

And everyone's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Justin]

No one's ever asked us those questions.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

We're not prepared to answer that.

[Aaron]

Or like, hey, I don't want to do business with somebody bullshitting me.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's that simple. To go over Here, it's that straightforward. Like, honestly, when Toyota was like, hey, we're actually, we just don't believe in the EV thing. We think hybrid is better.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And we're gonna go continue to develop our hybrid system because we think it's better. It's better for the planet, it's better for our business, it's better for our customers. Like that. For me, I was already a Toyota fan. Oh, I am a huge Toyota fan now. Like, big time Toyota fan. My next vehicle will be Lexus. Toyota. That's what I want right now. Or a Toyota like, because they're not bullshitting people. Yeah, I like that. I really, I love, I love that that's the kind of company I want to do business with. And that. That's again, that's not status quo now, but that's where the world's going.

[Justin]

Yeah. Authenticity, though. Like, you have to have authenticity in everything you do. Cause you can smell it out more than ever today.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And honestly, in 2019, you could fool me.

[Justin]

You could fool me, but with ChatGPT experience.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But in the whole Covid thing, like, now I'm asking every question for better or for worse. Like, some questions I should not be asking and some rabbit holes I shouldn't be going down. It's not my best interest. But others, like, I don't know, I've been bamboozled a few times now. And now I'm looking like, where, where else am I getting bamboozled?

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Who else is screwing me? The more you look around, the more you're like, damn it. Yeah, we are really getting screwed in every which place. But then it's like, oh, all right. But I can also, as a consumer and then as a business owner, you know, as a consumer, you and your family, you can vote with your dollars.

[Justin]

100.

[Aaron]

Okay. It makes, you know, if a bunch of consumers add up, yeah, it makes a difference. But as a business owner, you start to have more sway. You're spending bigger dollars, you're a bigger customer. You know, some guy buying a Husqvarna chainsaw every seven years is not nearly as influential as you buying all kinds of fun stuff. And there's significant power with that. And you can very easily go down the path that a lot of other companies, especially the big companies, have gone. That's like, we've just got to sing the same tune that everybody else is. There's nothing contrary in here. We have no opinion on anything. Wait, what's the. What's the. What's the common opinion? What is what is. What is.

[Justin]

What do you think before.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you. What? Yeah, what do you think? I think that, too. That's. That's exactly. Exactly it.

[Justin]

Like you're onto something.

[Aaron]

Let's just take a stand nowhere. Let's just.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Hey, before we have this podcast, I need to call my lawyer.

[Justin]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Here's the list of things that you can't.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. And my lawyer said we can't talk about lawyers saying what I can and can't say.

[Justin]

So, yeah, don't even bring up the fact that we talked about that.

[Aaron]

But on the outside, it's. Again, it's just like.

[Justin]

It's all just this facade. Like, it's this PR messaging, and I get business.

[Aaron]

It's like, yeah, if you were to just tell me, listen, my job is to maximize shareholder value. This is great for shareholder value.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's why we're doing it. I'd be like, yeah, I don't blame you. I'm in business, too. I get it.

[Justin]

Yeah, great.

[Aaron]

Like, congratulations. Like, I can at least respect that. But when it's packaged in this complete bullshit that you know is not true. I know is not true. Has been vetted by legal PR73, other outside sources that are getting paid a bunch of money writing nonsense.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's when I started out from.

[Justin]

Yeah, I. I have a. I have an issue with that because we aren't progressing as an industry.

[Aaron]

It hurts the whole industry.

[Justin]

Yeah. When you're not honest. And so we've taken this stance, which is like the branding, the personal branding, the sharing, the journey, the documenting the failures. You have to be careful going back to what we said at the very beginning. But you also, I think we, you and I specifically, we have a duty to those other people out there to show what's going on at a deep level and an honest level so they can learn and they can become better for it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And I think that's. That's part of why I am so focused on building a brand within the landscape industry, specifically, because I think we have been doing the same thing for the last 40 or 50 years, and we need a change. But if you only have buying power to the point that you spend $1 million on equipment a year, sure, you have a million dollars. You add the personal brand element to that. And I don't want to say it. Go as far as we have the same buying power as the publicly traded companies in our market, but I think we have very similar amounts of Influence as the biggest companies in our market.

[Aaron]

Well. And it's the brand thing has weight.

[Justin]

It has legs.

[Aaron]

It has legs, man. And they don't know it yet, the big companies now.

[Justin]

And because it's, it's scary for them.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And I like, you see where the world's going. I see where the world's going. It's like again, I'm, I'm a fucking pimple on your ass. I understand that.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Aaron]

But there's going to be a day where that's just not the case.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like this is where this is going. You're going backwards, I'm going forwards.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

We're going to meet in the middle, then I'm going past you. And at a certain, at that point we're going to have to have a real conversation or else we're not having a conversation.

[Justin]

Yeah. You get to write the rules to that meeting.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Now the conversation's on my terms, not yours, so. And yeah. And I'm not going to wield it in some ridiculous way. I'm careful with how I wield it. I'm not going to go. If I go have a bad experience with a company, I'm not going to go next day. No shit on them online. Like that's, that's just, that's really poor. It's like that's amateur hour in my opinion as far as I'm concerned. But I'm sure shit can have wield it down the road.

[Justin]

Oh yeah. And wield it to build something better.

[Aaron]

To. Exactly. Not wield it for my gain. Wield it to help carry the industry into this next generation, which, which is where it needs to go. That's exactly it.

[Justin]

I think people are afraid to invest in themselves and really get out and be humble and be vulnerable because I mean historically people have been punished for that. And it's like, hey, just shut up and sit down, do your job. And so I am in the very early stages of this brand building. But I realize the impact is not for me. Even though it looks self serving to the outside, it looks like, oh, you're just doing this for Aaron or for Justin. But the truth of the matter, if you're really doing it to impact the industry and move it in the direction that. And maybe that is selfish that you think is best to go in.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Then I think that's for the right reasons.

[Aaron]

Well, and if that's selfish, like, okay.

[Justin]

You gotta take a stand at some.

[Aaron]

Point, like whatever you can think, whatever you want. Like if you want to call me selfish by all means. But, but yeah, it's, it's. I want to help the industry go to this next generation because it has to. Like, we're, we're, we're, we're fucking with something that shouldn't be fucked with. So from the brand side of things, where do, where, where do you share? Where can people find you?

[Justin]

So for the brand, Instagram and LinkedIn are really the two areas that I post the most. And Instagram is really like the quick sharing in the moment kind of thing and then LinkedIn's more text documenting. So I would say LinkedIn is going to be the place where I share more extensive, you know, here's what I learned about this or that or here's what we're doing here for, for whatever. And then Instagram is going to be much more just, you know, video and, and documenting a little bit more. So Those are the two platforms I'm regularly on.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Justin]

YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, also post there. Just not of part personally as active, we're moving more into kind of vlogging and doing more YouTube stuff that we're going to hopefully be rolling out this summer. Because I think what we do is really cool and like, we build these really cool backyards and we have these cool videos and pictures of the final product. But like, there's a lot of stuff that happens in between demolition and final product that we want to start capturing and sharing that story more. So we're going to be doing more and more of that on both my personal page and the page KND Landscape Landscaping.

[Aaron]

Right on.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

All right, well, we'll link all that in the description and I'm glad we could make this work. This is great.

[Justin]

Yeah, this is awesome, man. Thanks for having me down.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming. Worked out scheduling wise and hope I can see it next in Santa Cruz.

[Justin]

Yeah, let's do it. Look forward to it.

[Aaron]

Oh, I love it, man.

[Justin]

Well, I think we have some good weather coming up, so if you come out, you're going to enjoy it.

[Aaron]

Sweet.

[Justin]

All right, man.

[Aaron]

Right on.