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- [00:00]
Aaron Witz
This Dirt Talk podcast is with Marcus Sheridan with question first. Marcus started a pool company in the early 2000s where he learned the ropes of business, leadership, marketing and communication. He's used this foundation to have stakes in seven businesses, speak internationally and become a best selling author. Marcus has been a huge supporter of Build Wit since day one. He has been a regular speaker at our summit events. He has trained our sales team, he has trained our marketing team. He has given us nonstop inspiration. I could not say enough good things about Marcus and this episode was a blast because he is one of the best communicators I've been around. So. So talking with him, just the conversation itself is so much fun and I hope you enjoy it as well. So here we go. Marcus Sheridan with Question First. The industry is calling the next generation entitled. But they're the ones sitting around thinking they're entitled to the next generation. It's like, wait a minute, you're the entitled one. You think your business deserves a workforce. That's not how it works and it's worked that way for a while. But I'm telling you, that is not how the world works anymore. And you can bitch about it all day long. Not gonna do anything to what you.
- [01:44]
Marcus Sheridan
Just said right there. Let me give you an example of turning that into a bit.
- [01:47]
Aaron Witz
Right.
- [01:48]
Marcus Sheridan
So that's a really strong potential, like paradigm shifter that you can give to the audiences.
- [01:56]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [01:56]
Marcus Sheridan
It's like we've said for a long time that they're entitled, but really we're expecting this, this and this. We're the ones that are entitled. If you take it a step further, if you're actually delivering this in your talk, you can say, here's, here's what we have been saying. Do we all agree we've been saying this. Here's what's really happening now. Who's the one that's being the most entitled? And then you let the audience say, well, I guess it's us.
- [02:30]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [02:31]
Marcus Sheridan
And you can look at a person in the audience, especially if it's that 200 audience. So if we're really being honest right now, Jamie, who's the one? Which one of these two groups is actually being the most entitled? Jamie's going to say, well, I guess the older generation. And you're going to say, exactly. And why is that? And then she's going to make the point. Remember, your audience will never argue with Jamie. They'll argue with you for a while until you bring them over. But you're going to bring them over a lot faster. If Jamie Says it first. You can't always do it, but sometimes you can do just en masse. You can ask that question again. Goes back to the shared storytelling. It's very. Question first. Right. It's like just thinking in those terms that you don't have to be the deliverer of the message. You just have to ask the perfect question. And then the audience is like, ding, ding. These light bulbs come on. That's quite good. And that's the next level of the talk. Right. The next level of talk is really two things. Without seeing it, I'm being totally assumptive. I'm just being generalizing here with like, most people that if they get to a certain point, what, what, what, what they have to do yet is learn how to raise stakes with the stories they tell. And then the second one is really just bringing the audience somehow into that even more.
- [03:55]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [03:56]
Marcus Sheridan
And they actually feed each other quite a bit. But it's. I'll hear a story a lot of times from a speaker. I'm just like, but could we, could we raise those stakes right now? And there's always a way to raise. There's always a way, you know, to, to raise it. And if we do that, then, you know, you got the edge of the seat effect on, on folks and you just get them really wanting, like, tell me how this ends.
- [04:21]
Aaron Witz
Sure. Yeah. Well. Which you do a brilliant job of. I, I. What I've been reflecting on as I'm like building out, I kind of view it. The, the easiest way I've been able to visualize it is like a comedy routine. Like, you build an hour and then you run that hour for a while, and then you start over. You know, you, you're in. It's incremental changes on that hour. And then it gets to a point where it's just phenomenal. Start over from scratch. And, and some of the stuff's gonna be similar. Some of it's gonna be different. So I'm in like, that starting from scratch mode right now, which I really like. Like, that's. It's allowed me to iterate, I think faster instead of getting it, get it. Just getting in love with one message or another. It's forced me to be critical. But one thing, and I was kind of talking to you as we were walking in here. One thing I've thought a lot about is convincing versus challenging. I've. I've spent a lot of my time trying to convince everybody, and that's just not effective at all. I know. Because I've tried it. I'VE like, I've spent my whole professional career trying to convince people, and it's like, it's just not gonna work. I have to challenge. But then you can't just. I mean, you can, but you can't just directly challenge, because then it's met with resistance. You just, you know, you put your armor up. Like, you know this. Put your armor up. There's just. There's no way you get through it.
- [05:42]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [05:42]
Aaron Witz
So you kind of. You kind of have to go, you know, around the left. You know, left or right, kind of around and indirectly challenge. And, like, what you're saying, that's exactly what that is.
- [05:53]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, it's like showing the audience the mirror that they haven't seen for a while.
- [05:57]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
- [05:58]
Marcus Sheridan
Because when they look at the mirror, they know that's the truth. But it's your job to really help them see the mirror clearly for the first time in a while. Which goes back to, do you ask the right questions? Do you. Do you design them in such a way, really? Like, are you engineering them so that the audience says, son of a gun, I can't believe that's exactly what I'm doing. I am that. And then they reach the conclusion that you're trying to get to without you having to make the point at all. And then sometimes they'll just make it for you, especially if you ask the right question.
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Aaron Witz
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's.
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Marcus Sheridan
It's a.
- [06:41]
Aaron Witz
It's one of the hardest skills I've gotten involved with. I would say it's a really. It's, It's. It's. There's just so much to it. Um, but I would say it's one of the most valuable skills, especially from a leadership standpoint. I've thought a lot about this too. Cause I'll speak at a, you know, a company event. Yeah, that's. That's honestly my favorite is when I speak to these companies. It's. It's. It's a lot of fun. I know these companies well, and it's just so cool. I mean, some of these, like, some of these companies were ones I wanted to work for when I was coming up. And I still just. I admire even more to this day. But then you'll see other leaders present either before or after you, and it's just. It bums me out because it's a missed opportunity. It's like, man, you've. You've. You've spent so much money to get all these people here, like the venue, fine. But just like you've Stopped production, which at some of these companies is, I mean it's millions of dollars just to have people for an afternoon in one place. Crazy. And, and, and you know, everybody's from all over and this and that and construction companies. You know, the margins are not software or not pharmaceuticals. Like it's a big deal. And so you have everybody there, they're, they're there to listen. They're, they're, they're ready for you. And then you just, you just, you just don't get there.
- [08:11]
Marcus Sheridan
That's because, that's because over 90% of leaders in the space have never had any training whatsoever on how to be more effective as a communicator in front of an audience.
- [08:22]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [08:23]
Marcus Sheridan
And generally it's no different than whether, whether they are giving a presentation from their group, whether they're giving a one on one. It's the same problem. And the problem is the same. If you ask, if you, if you went to the dirt world right now and we took all the companies there and all the managers of said companies, thousands and thousands of managers, and you said to them, how many of you have been trained on how to give a truly effective one on one where you actually role played? Like you learned through role play how to give an effective one on one?
- [08:55]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
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Marcus Sheridan
1% of 1% would say yes, that's generous too.
- [09:00]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
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Marcus Sheridan
And the other 99.9 would say nope, I just pretty much. I mean, we do have a leadership training once every six months. That's a joke. That's a joke. There's no way you can establish any true habits and you can't build any extraordinary culture by having what is bi yearly leadership trainings, which is what you see in this space. It's not okay. And I see it all the time. It's pretty wild.
- [09:29]
Aaron Witz
Well, and when you think about what the job of a leader is like, first and foremost, it's communication, number one.
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Marcus Sheridan
Everything starts and stops right there.
- [09:40]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
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Marcus Sheridan
Once again, it's like, have you ever actually received any training on this? Yeah, this, there's different. They've done litany of studies on this. One of them is the number one factor that dictates average income in the world right now. Of all the skills, it comes down to simply your ability to communicate. That's number one. It's like, that's it. That's it. And yet if you look at the amount of money we spend on training, how much of that is on the communication front? What's funny though, because people spend money really quick on sales training. I mean like that.
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Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [10:20]
Marcus Sheridan
In the dirt world, though, sales training isn't like a really big part of the game. It's because a lot of folks are like, I got enough work. You know, it's like, it's just not a big, we're not too concerned about that. And then they've got this huge leadership problem yet they're not approaching it as this core issue that they have to solve. And then they wonder why if they have this once a year meetup as a team or if they have these silly build our culture events, let's go do an escape room. Who thought of that? That might be the dumbest answer to fixed culture problems I have ever, ever seen. And the amount of organizations that have fallen for it. Because what happens when you do that? Ridiculous. When you like everybody goes and they try to find the thing, except there's two people working on it in the escape room and then there's another 10 people that are watching. The two people actually working on it. They got nothing from it. It is the silliest thing. It's not culture building right there.
- [11:33]
Aaron Witz
Well, the escape room industry has certainly capitalized upon. Seems like there's one in every shopping strip.
- [11:38]
Marcus Sheridan
Mal going to last. That one is not built. That is a business model that is not built to last.
- [11:45]
Aaron Witz
You're not going along on escape rooms.
- [11:47]
Marcus Sheridan
I am, I am a hard short on escape rooms. Mark my words. And I've been a hard short on certain things in my life where you could just tell, no, that's not going to last. And this, yeah, definitely one of them.
- [11:59]
Aaron Witz
No, I, I, I see, I see the communication thing on, I mean, every job site. It's, it's a bummer to me when you see the foreman, the crew leader, not communicate effectively because they've got 10 minutes every morning to communicate with the crew. And then it's, it's, it's construction has been remote before. Remote was a thing. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a remote workforce. You're, you're remote just by nature of the industry. So you're spread on all different job sites. Even smaller companies are spread across many sites. And then on that site, you're oftentimes not working together. You know, somebody could be over here, somebody can be over there. And so you have that 10, 15 minutes in the morning to communicate with everybody and to build culture, the build the team to convey what the heck needs to happen and why. Like there's a lot that needs to happen, but they just don't have those skills. But then I think it, I mean, it definitely starts at the leadership level. Like, very rarely do I see leadership with those skills, but when I do, it's unbelievable. Like, I would say the best companies within the industry have, coincidentally, maybe it's a coincidence, have leaders, though, that are very comfortable communicating and very effective in communication.
- [13:14]
Marcus Sheridan
Oh, yeah, no question about it. Yeah, no question about it. But like, let's say you look at those 10 minute morning huddles, 99% of them look the same.
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Aaron Witz
Yes.
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Marcus Sheridan
That's one guy telling everybody else, hey, here's what we're going to do today.
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Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [13:30]
Marcus Sheridan
When if you really understand how leadership works, right. You can, you can judge just how great a leader is by how many leaders come from their leadership tree. This is why Bill Walsh was one of the greatest football coaches of all time. Because if you, you know, a lot of people say, well, yeah, well, Bill Walsh is great with the San Francisco 49ers. He won a bunch of Super Bowls, yada, yada. But what really made him great is if you look at his coaching tree, the amount of coaches that started with him that have now won Super Bowls is an extraordinarily high number. And that's how you really can judge a leader. And so what happens is, as a whole, we don't understand how to develop leaders. And the way you develop leaders in the morning huddle isn't by a single person talking. That person is just the band director, but he or she is not creating the music. The music has to come from the instruments that are in the band. And so in this, in this context, if you're leading a huddle and you got six different crews or six different, like, stations or whatever you want, like whatever your setup is, you're saying, okay, Jeff. And Jeff knows already what to say. And Jeff says his thing. And it's like Jeff is the hero in that moment. He's the leader. He's making the, the music. And then it moves to Jenny and then it moves to Jerry and it just goes across. And the leader, James, is just there again to be the director of, like, of the music. That's his job. Most folks don't understand that. It goes back to the same way we solve problems in this space. I mean, I got a ton of opinions on this, but most leaders, when someone comes to them with a problem, they immediately tell them what to do. That is the absolute worst thing you can do as a leader if you want to build an extraordinary culture of leadership development. Especially because the only thing you have now done, if you came to Me, Aaron, as my team member, and I've heard this problem a thousand times. If you came to me and I immediately told you what to do, now I've taught you to do what. The next time you have a problem, what are you supposed to do next time?
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Aaron Witz
Come right to you.
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Marcus Sheridan
Come to me. I am your Google. I'm your ChatGPT. I will give you the answer. And then we wonder why as leaders we get inundated with text messages, with emails, with phone calls at all different hours, because we've literally taught our team, you come to me. But the problem is this, Aaron. The reason why we do that subconsciously is because we want to feel smart, important, needed. That's what everybody inherently wants. When you make the shift though, and you release the need to hold the floor to produce the music and suddenly you're just really just like, you feel so passionate about being that band director, everything starts to change, man.
- [16:34]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, I, it's not the only bit of information, but if I had one bit of information based on how much somebody's phone is ringing, I could tell you the quality of their organization, most likely.
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Marcus Sheridan
Oh, absolutely.
- [16:50]
Aaron Witz
How, how much they're needed. Like, I had somebody, I had Dan Garcia with C.W. matthews in here. They've got thousands of employees and, and they're doing, I mean, billion dollar jobs. He was here for half a day, no problem.
- [17:08]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah. Not, not getting blown up all day long.
- [17:11]
Aaron Witz
Didn't answer a single phone call. Wasn't, wasn't at all stressed. As cool as a cucumber. You would have, if you had no idea what this guy did, you'd have zero indication of where he's at within the food chain or what he even does with how many, I mean, ultimately 2,000 people plus reporting to this guy at the end of the day, wouldn't have any idea, which I think is like the, the best indication of just the quality. And he wouldn't say that, but it's just, it's obvious. And C.W. matthews, a brilliant organization and with a lot of brilliant leadership.
- [17:47]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [17:47]
Aaron Witz
But it, ultimately it does start from, it starts from somewhere. If you're looking for another industry event that is a snooze fest, this is definitely not for you. But if you're a leader looking to elevate yourself, your team, looking for like minded individuals that are hungry, then look no further than the Ariat Dirt World Summit, November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas. In our third year, we'll have about 1500 hungry industry leaders from about 500 companies looking to learn, grow, teach, it's going to be fantastic. We also have a world class lineup. We've got Jesse Cole from the Savannah Bananas, James Clear Atomic Habits, Kim Scott, Radical Candor, Mark Miller, Chick Fil A leadership Tim Grover who is Michael Jordan's trainer. You will not hear from a lineup like this anywhere else. So check out details now. Dirtworld.com you can use code AARON10 for 10% off any registrations and we'll see you November 5th through the 7th in Dallas, Texas.
- [18:55]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, part of it though is Dan had to release that need to appear to be the hero to all people. He had to step off the proverbial throne and be okay with the fact that he is not getting bombarded that he's not the core problem solver. And that sounds like really obvious but believe it or not, really self sabotaging because they had this feeling like if I am not constantly solving problems, I'm not leading. Well, reality is this too. 90% of the time when the team member comes to you with a problem, they actually have an answer.
- [19:41]
Aaron Witz
Almost always. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Which is amazing.
- [19:44]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. They've got it. Your only job is get them to say the thing that they already inherently know. That's the job. That is the job of leadership. Now the issue is a lot of people say that's really inefficient. I don't have the time. Too many things, too many, too many things are happening. If you ever want to live a life like Dan Garcia and get to the point where you're not inundated, you have to at some point at the beginning, take the time to help that person really solve the problem themselves. You know we call this a Pathfinder. That's like, that's the hero that my training company question. First group that we believe every leader should espouse to be the Pathfinder originally was the person that went ahead of the explorers. Their only job was one thing, find new paths that explorers could use to get further. They weren't the hero though. That's what's so interesting. They weren't the ones that you read about. They went ahead and they reported back, hey, you can take this route here. So how can you as a leader be a Pathfinder? Today the way you can be a world class pathfinder is you got to learn how to ask extraordinary questions and just like simple little things. Aaron, simple little things. Once you become extraordinary with questions, you become superhuman though. You really do. And if I talk, if I ask most people, have you been trained on how to ask the perfect question Almost across the Board, everyone would say, I don't know. I think maybe, like I've observed, I've watched. But have you ever been trained? Like, if somebody asks you what makes a perfect question versus an imperfect question, do you even know? Most people don't. They just have a feeling for it. But even still, they can't define it, they can't articulate it. That's the problem. But if you become a Pathfinder, you're so incredibly curious that what happens is you're constantly creating breakthroughs for those people around you. And you can do this yourself, Aaron, like with your own team. One litmus test that you should consistently do with the people around you is you should say, how many times this week did somebody have an aha or a light bulb moment because of me, because of a question I asked. Now, you know how people have a light bulb moment, right? Like, what's something that they do or say if they're having a light bulb moment? Ah, yeah, right. You know what? I. I think I know what I should do. And you as the leader, like, okay, tell me more. Well, I think I should do this, this and this. All right. And if you do that, what's going to happen next? Well, then this is this, and this is going to happen. Okay. And what's the final payoff going to be? I think we're going to have this happen and you're going to say, man, I think you're exactly right.
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Aaron Witz
Yeah.
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Marcus Sheridan
What you have to understand is, for the most part, when it comes to solving problems in leadership, every conversation ends in the same two words, essentially, which are, you're right. The question is, who's the one saying you're right? Because if I'm your team member, you're my boss, Aaron, and I come to you and ask you a question and you say, marcus, let me tell you how I've dealt with this over the years. And then at the end, I say, man, Aaron, I knew if I came to you, you would have the answer, dude, you are so right. In fact, you just have. Man, I just love coming to you now. All that, like, on the surface, that looks and sounds great, but the student said, you're right. That's a problem. You failed to develop me. Most leaders fall into a category that we call the instructor. The instructor cares about the person, but they say, usually based on life experience, here's what I would do if I was in your shoes. Here's what you need to do next. That's what the instructor does. You've got other types of leaders, too. You've got another one. Instead of the. You've got, like we said, we've got the Pathfinder. Ask questions all about the personal growth. The. The student grows. When I say the student, the co worker, whoever came to you with the problem, the instructor cares much about the student. But the instructor doesn't allow the student to grow because they just give instructions. Sure. Then you've got the one we call the dictator. The dictator just tells them exactly what to do. You come to me with the problem. I say, okay, Aaron, here's what you need to do next. Here's what I want you to do. Everyone go do this.
- [24:27]
Aaron Witz
Which I would say is standard in construction.
- [24:30]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes. That is extremely prominent in construction. There's a lot of like, hey, this is what this is. There's this like almost powerful feeling. It's like I'm taking charge here. And on the surface, you can actually for season lead a company that way. The problem is you don't create any other leaders and so it dies with you immediately.
- [24:54]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can lead a company like that for 50 years. Yeah. But then, yeah, once everybody gets old, it's gone. It's gone. I've seen it so many times.
- [25:05]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. And there's just no leadership development from that. And what happens is too, you don't again, your coaching tree is almost null and void at that point. You don't have an extraordinary coaching tree. Like if you look at Bill Walsh, he was not like a dictator at all. It's just. It just wasn't how he was. He very much empowered his assistant coaches to be world class. The final type of communicator you have is the one that appears to be curious. But they're only asking questions to manipulate the answer so as to get the result that they want. We call that the person, the lawyer. So you got the lawyer, you got the dictator, you got the instructor, you got the pathfinder. Most people listening to this right now are either an instructor or they're a dictator in terms of how they ask questions or the lack of questions, the lack of true curiosity, the lack of discovery that they have with the person that comes to them and has the problem. Whereas you need to literally come from a question first perspective every single time. And one of the most powerful questions that you have to learn to ask because when you come from this mindset, you become a Pathfinder will happen, Aaron, is somebody will come to you with a problem and you'll say, okay, all right, I appreciate you sharing that. Now let's figure this out. Notice how I said, now, let's figure this out. Let us figure this out. Right? So we're in this together, Right? So let's figure this out. And then I'm going to say to you, if you came to me again with the problem, I would say to you now. All right, so let's assume for a second that you were the CEO and you had to say what you would do to solve this problem. What would you do? Now, that's going to be the first question. Something very similar to it. You're always saying, if you were making the decision here, what would you do? Now? What you're going to find, though, is that people push back all the time. They push back, not even intentionally. They say, gosh, I don't even know what I would do. You hear it all the time, or, geez, I mean, there's just so many things I would. I mean, there's just a bunch that I would do. But did you get an answer? You didn't get an answer. So what you have to learn to do is you have to learn to immediately come back, because you got to expect that the brain first isn't going to engage hard. The natural human tendency is to check out and just say, man, I mean, there's just so many things I would do. I mean, what do you think?
- [27:38]
Aaron Witz
Sure.
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Marcus Sheridan
No, this is where most leaders fail because they'll say, well, I think you should do such and such. They turn into the instructor or. Or they turn into the dictator instead. You need to say, I know, I know, I know. You don't necessarily know, but if you had to choose, what would it be? That's is more powerful in many reasons in many ways than the question why. A lot of people think why is the most powerful question in the world. Arguably it is, but in terms of leadership development. But if you had to say what you would do, if you had to make a suggestion here, if you had to offer your thoughts, what would they be? The amount of times you will then get an answer is extraordinary. And as soon as they say what they're thinking, what do you think you say next, Aaron.
- [28:36]
Aaron Witz
Do you probably somewhat of a reinforcement, you say, so tell.
- [28:42]
Marcus Sheridan
Me more about that. Yeah, because they ain't done. What do they say? Well, actually, I was. I mean, if it was me. Go ahead, go ahead. Well, I think I would do such and such. Okay, tell me about that. It's the same thing. Boom, you follow right back up. Tell me about that. Well, I would do such and such, and then this is how I would handle it. And I would you these details. Okay, tell me more. Keep going. Da da da da da da. Person keeps going. And now they have really articulated. You have put themselves in a position of thinking like a leader. They're living in the solution. Your job as a leader, as a great, extraordinary, life changing leader, is to constantly put people in a state of living and in the solution, not dwelling on the problem, living in the solution. Okay, tell me what you would do. All right. And why would you do that? You're just really getting it out of them up until the point where you're able to say, I think you're right. And notice now I as a leader said you're right. So just a couple tests for anybody's listening to this and for yourself. Right, Aaron, this week I want you to notice how many times when you're talking to someone, do they say, I think I know what I need to do, or a derivative of that. So how many light bulb moments do you create? Number two. How many times over the next week or the next month do you finish the conversation with you're right versus how many times do they say to you, aaron, you're so right, so freaking awesome. How can you be so right and so young at the same time? See, all that stuff should make you want to vomit, right? As a leader. And there was probably a season in your life where you appreciated it, but now that you're getting more leathered up and you've gone through the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, leadership, management, now the obsession is just need people that can make extraordinary decisions on their own without me. Yeah, that's how I'm gonna build something that's truly built to last.
- [30:56]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Yeah. Now I like scold myself internally every time. It happens in like small ways too. It'll be like someone will ask me a question. I'll just be. I won't even think about. I'll be like, oh yeah, xyz. And then afterwards they walk away. I'm like, damn it, there it is. That was a missed opportunity. And I just like, I just took the bait right away. And so to all this, I just read something. It was quite interesting. I think it might have been Jordan Peterson, but he was talking about how people are much better at giving their pets the medicine they need compared to the taking the medicine that they need to be taking. And they know they need to be taking the medicine. And yet it's just basic psychology at the end of the day is how you can explain it. And as you lay this stuff out, it's so like questions are so simple and basic. Leadership principles are so simple and basic. But my observation that I've made over the past few years, learning this is the best leaders are the ones that are the most effective at overriding human nature. They, everybody has this human nature within them that served us for tens of thousands of years in this very static environment. And now we're in this world that has dramatically changed in just 100 years that is just like unrecognizable versus where and it's only getting faster. So the human nature no longer serves us in almost every scenario. Like eating, for example, we just were programmed to just gorge ourselves on calories because I don't know when the next calories are coming. So I better, I better send it. If you do that now, everything's so calorie dense, you end up fat. Like it's pretty straightforward. It's just, that's human nature to get, to get fat because that's how we survived. And so with all of this, it's, it's so obvious. But it still comes down to those that understand like, I feel like you have to understand yourself first. You have to be self confident first, first in a way to even have a shot at this. Because if you are, if I'm not confident and I'm trying to prove myself as a leader, buying into the whole fact that I want everybody else to be special, I'm not going to make my special myself special is pretty hard. And, and so I just like with, with every great leader I've ever been around, they are so good at overriding their human nature.
- [33:33]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right. Because you get to a point if you're special where you do not need to be the hero of your own story.
- [33:45]
Aaron Witz
Yes, yes.
- [33:48]
Marcus Sheridan
Many folks never grow out of that. No, they always in their mind and oftentimes it's self sabotaging. They don't even know they're doing it. They have to be the hero. And so it's almost like when you release that for some people it's very liberating. But for some people at first it's actually very hard because it's like they're like. But I'm the one that they come to when there's a fire. Yeah, I'm, I'm the one that is steady under pressure. I'm the one that solves these things.
- [34:21]
Aaron Witz
Well, it's, it's where they derive their self worth.
- [34:24]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct.
- [34:25]
Aaron Witz
And so there's. Their self worth is under attack if they don't do that. And that's why? It's like, it's, it goes deep. And so if you're not very deep, if you're not solving for that self worth, and this is where this year, actually religion has really helped me in this regard by just understanding. I've been chipping away at this because I'm a, I'm a male in my, you know, I've been in my 20s in business, which is, it's a dangerous place to be in your 20s because, boy, you just, I mean, hook, line and sinker, you can just buy into all this bullshit and the ego and it just, it just, it takes you in all wild directions. And I've been in all these wild directions, but just, it's really helped cement the concept that is like, none of this is about me. None of it is about me. And it's brought this deep sense of peace that I have not felt ever. I have not felt it and especially in business until like maybe three months ago, four months ago. Whereas just like, was there a specific.
- [35:36]
Marcus Sheridan
Moment when the light bulb really came on?
- [35:39]
Aaron Witz
You know, we, I started to go down this pathway. It was really tangible. When we've been in these periods where it's like the business might fail, like the business might actually fail. And we've been there more than I would like to admit since inception. And the shitty thing is most people don't talk about it, so you think everybody's just fine. And I just made a podcast about this newsletter about this. Everybody in business, you go on like, you spend plenty of time on LinkedIn. How often are people on LinkedIn saying anything but how good they are?
- [36:21]
Marcus Sheridan
Almost never. Almost never.
- [36:24]
Aaron Witz
Everybody in business is amazing. Everybody is incredible.
- [36:28]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. Nobody ever fails on LinkedIn or social media. But yes, to your point, there's no such thing as a bad, unsuccessful business.
- [36:37]
Aaron Witz
Yes. Yeah, but I know, I've been around it long enough and I, I know enough people in business. I know that's. And it's especially the corporate people I found too, they're just, they're so far removed from how the business works that they just, there's just this lack of understanding and, and there's this false sense of security as well. I've seen like, they're, they have this sense of self importance rooted in like the brand that they work for and the company that they work for and the might and they get all these perks and they think like they're the ones that are getting the Perks, not the $10 billion company that work for. But anyway, so there's, there's just been times where it's like the business might actually fail. And where my mind will go right away is to save myself. Well, you know, I have this brand and so I can still make money. Xyz, I could go get a job, you know. Xyz, I have an engineering degree. You know, I could go do whatever. I could go do whatever I want to. Like, but then I, I, I've, this time around I, I caught myself like, hey, dumb, dumb, you're missing the whole point here. It's not about you in the slightest. Like you, you're buying into human nature right now and you're trying to save yourself. Throw that out the window. Because if you go down that path, you will fail. Yeah, that will become true. It will become a self fulfilling prophecy and you're not deserving of what could be. And so you go into this anxious state and all these things running through your head and you're up at night and what about this? What about that? But then you just, you remove yourself, you free yourself of that and it's just like, wow, it's not about me. Oh my gosh, it's not about me at all. And then you're just like, or at least me. I was just, I just felt so light. That's cool, man. Like you're staring death right in the face. But you're like, not about me then. That's not like, it doesn't mean I didn't do anything. Like, it just. All right, well, now that I figured that out, let me grab a bag of potato chips and hang on the couch for a while.
- [38:50]
Marcus Sheridan
It's like true that though, like, but to that point, I'm curious, so you got, once you had that, like, once you, you released it, what were you then able to do because you had released it that maybe before you couldn't have done, like, what did that liberate you? Maybe it was decisions, actions, I don't know. But what did it allow you to do that maybe Aaron from three years ago wouldn't have done?
- [39:20]
Aaron Witz
I, I just have this clarity and understanding that I, I didn't, I didn't have. And even just this, this sense of peace is really powerful. It's just I have not been here before and, and there's still plenty of things to work on, plenty of things wrong. So it's, it's not like it's coming from a, it's like rooted in this very realistic flying here, very realistic sense. So it's just, it's allowed me, I think, to be more effective Far more effective. And this is, so this is where like going to leaders, communicating, like, it's so straightforward, but they don't, they don't do it because I think it goes back to, because they're thinking about them. Like with LinkedIn, for example, like, how beneficial is LinkedIn for you and your business?
- [40:10]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, it's pretty substantial. Pretty.
- [40:12]
Aaron Witz
Like, would you be anywhere close to where you are today without.
- [40:17]
Marcus Sheridan
Right. I mean, I've built, I mean built. It's not a big brand from LinkedIn because it's allowed me to, to stay in front of all these connections that I've built over the years.
- [40:32]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
- [40:32]
Marcus Sheridan
That otherwise would have forgotten completely about me. Sure.
- [40:35]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. I, I, you know, it's not the thing, but it's made you way more, way more powerful or influential. Influential.
- [40:43]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [40:44]
Aaron Witz
And, and how much, how much money have you had to spend on LinkedIn?
- [40:48]
Marcus Sheridan
Just 100% has just been time.
- [40:50]
Aaron Witz
It's just your time.
- [40:51]
Marcus Sheridan
Time.
- [40:51]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's so obvious. And these, and you know, I tell these leaders or I talk to them, they know they should be there, but they can't be there because they're worried about what other people are going to say. And it's, and it's like you're thinking about, you know, to that about you.
- [41:08]
Marcus Sheridan
There's a lot of leaders, especially in this space. I mean, because I get this space, right. I've been a pool guy and all this stuff and coming up in very blue collar situation. The idea of being in, quote, influencer really turns a lot of people off.
- [41:24]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [41:25]
Marcus Sheridan
Just the idea especially, and I'm not afraid to say it especially a lot of men, macho men, strong men, like, I don't want to be like that. Instagram influencer Daniel Priestley describes this best. And it really just crystallized for me when he wrote the book Key person of Influence, which was actually way ahead of its time. Basically how he describes it is there's two types of people that have influence online. There's influencers and there's influencers. Key person of influence. Now what's the difference? An influencer says, hey, look at me. Hey, look what I'm eating. Hey, look where I'm at.
- [42:06]
Aaron Witz
Attention.
- [42:07]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes. It's just, it's, it's coming back to me. So it's, hey, look at me. The key person of influence. Now listen to this. Says, hey, look at this.
- [42:17]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [42:19]
Marcus Sheridan
Hey, check him out. Hey, did you hear their story? And of course, this is what you have become. If you look at your YouTube channel. If you look at, like your everything, I mean, 95 to 98% of everything you post is shining a light on someone or something that's not named Aaron or buildwit.
- [42:45]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:47]
Marcus Sheridan
That's how you become a key person of influence. Which is why if we talk to people in the dirt world, 99% are going to say, yeah, I really respect that guy. Not, hey, he's some Instagram influencer and he drives me crazy. No, it's like, because you've done it in such a way that it's a, hey, look at this. So if you're listening to this right now and you're struggling between the two, just say, okay, do I want to highlight other people and shine that light on them or not? Because if the issue is I don't want to be Instagram, great, all you have to do is say, I'm going to be a key person of influence.
- [43:33]
Aaron Witz
Well, and this is why I can, like, whenever I do get the criticism that it's all about me. Like, it's very easily not to internalize that because it's like.
- [43:43]
Marcus Sheridan
Because it's not true.
- [43:44]
Aaron Witz
It's not at all true.
- [43:46]
Marcus Sheridan
It's not close to being true.
- [43:49]
Aaron Witz
It's like the shit I put up with. I would have given up a long time ago if it was the Aaron show. Like, oh, man, I would have thrown in the towel, like, week two. So it's just. And that's also the benefit of time. Like, if you sustain something, the longer you sustain it, the more, I think, real it is.
- [44:09]
Marcus Sheridan
Oh, no question about it.
- [44:11]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [44:11]
Marcus Sheridan
What you've built is rather, rather extraordinary. And the attention that you're starting to bring to an industry that otherwise that attention never would have been gotten. And the fact that, you know, I wrote about this and I'm writing about it more and more on LinkedIn, but yesterday, two days ago, my son came to me and he's a 21 year electrician. He's got his own crew. He's been an electrician since he was 16. And, like, he was homeschooled. So he was way ahead of his peers. I wasn't gonna push him down the college route because it was obvious early on for him and for us that his thing was this. Like, I'm gonna work with my hands, I want to be in the trades. Sure. And I was like, that's amazing. I was as proud of him as if he was going to Harvard. So he's 21, he's got his own crew, he's in Richmond, Virginia, right now and he's doing a lot of commercial work. Yeah, Dad, I had a 35 year old start with me today. Greeny never. He knows nothing about electrical. I'm like 35 years old. Wow. Like, why did he, why did he say I want to like suddenly be an electrician? He said he sees what's happening with the world. He sees what's happening with AI and he says, this is one of the most job secure choices I could ever make. I thought, wow, 35. And because of the impact that AI is having, because of the fact that we're seeing a white collar exodus, most people don't realize it, but it's happening. Oh yeah.
- [45:51]
Aaron Witz
It's on even a college exodus.
- [45:54]
Marcus Sheridan
100%. Yeah. The security is not there for knowledge workers.
- [46:00]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [46:01]
Marcus Sheridan
But for the trades, the security is going to be there for a long time. We're getting ready to enter into a golden age for the trades. It's very exciting. Most people don't even know it's happening yet. Many people in this space are still sitting there saying to themselves, I can't find any work where if they were smart, they would say, you want job security, you don't want AI to replace you. You want to get paid really, really well and live an extraordinary life. Come join us.
- [46:36]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, and this is part of my talk too is everybody sells the industry on money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money. And I'm like, that's great. You're missing the point. Like, that's a box to check. All right, we'll check the box.
- [46:51]
Marcus Sheridan
Just one of. We'll be 100.
- [46:53]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Yes. And it's like one of the prerequisite boxes, especially for the next generation, because it's, you have the previous generation approaching it from their perspective, but it's like your perspective is irrelevant in this matter. Next generation's perspective, that's all that matters. They sure do. They need to pay for things. And is everything more expensive than ever before? And have the baby boomers kind of screwed everybody? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, money is important. However, however they want purpose, they want job security. Like they, they, they, they have these, you know, this angst caused by the AI stuff and everything you see around, like.
- [47:35]
Marcus Sheridan
Perfect case in point. Here, let me, let me give you this incredible paradox here. I own a few different companies. One is a pool company. Very blue collar.
- [47:48]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [47:48]
Marcus Sheridan
And I've got an agency. And some other, I've got some like white collar companies.
- [47:53]
Aaron Witz
And the pool company is where you got your start.
- [47:55]
Marcus Sheridan
Pool company's where I Got my start. Right. I started that in 2001 during COVID I had 40 some blue collar employees that went through Covid with the pool company. And then I had 40, 50 some that went through Covid with the white collar company or companies. Guess where all the mental health breaks came from. Guess which group was saying, I'm overwhelmed because of this Covid thing. Guess what group was saying, hey, I'm burnout. Guess what group was saying, hey, you know, I'm just overwhelmed with everything that's going on in the world right now. I'm not saying all of them. I'm saying percentage wise, I had zero people at my pool company say, this is hard. I need a break. Nobody said it. Whereas in the white collar space that are making. They were. That average white collar was making at least twice as much as my group with the blue collar. Right.
- [49:03]
Aaron Witz
And work from home.
- [49:04]
Marcus Sheridan
Probably most of them working from home.
- [49:06]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Marcus Sheridan
So, like, looking at it on the surface, you're like, why is there a problem here? There is something incredibly cathartic and healthy about motion outside of your home, in the dirt world, in all of blue collar and all of the trades we offer that people are going to start to realize that you combine that with the rising demand. And so therefore, we do have certainly the wage. The wages in blue collar are only going up. Only going up within the trades and the job security. And the fact that now the conversation has changed for a solid almost three decades. We talked down. Hollywood talked down. People talk down. Most parents are responsible for this, too. They told their kid they had to go to college or they were. You know, they just somehow were less than if they didn't go to college. They were less than if they went to VO Tech. All these things. And now we've got this huge shift, and I'm seeing it everywhere, where parents are like, man, you should consider a trade. You can. You should consider instead of college, this. And the opportunity is open for them. That's why we're literally going to enter the golden age of the trades.
- [50:36]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Well, when you have Larry Fink talking about how many electricians are needed.
- [50:40]
Marcus Sheridan
Yep.
- [50:41]
Aaron Witz
There's a problem. I mean, that guy's like the. The head of the evil empire. Correct. In a lot of ways.
- [50:50]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct.
- [50:51]
Aaron Witz
He's. He's kind of like.
- [50:53]
Marcus Sheridan
He. He is court emperor Palpatine.
- [50:55]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [50:55]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. Yes.
- [50:56]
Aaron Witz
I mean, there's a few of them, but, like, he's. He's. He's a good candidate.
- [51:00]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Aaron Witz
And when he's talking about it, it's like. And it Changed quick.
- [51:05]
Marcus Sheridan
Yep.
- [51:06]
Aaron Witz
I mean, and, but, but people don't. Yeah, the whole economy is going to get retooled because we went, we went from making things to knowledge economy and then we were just like, let's just go all in on knowledge economy because we're going to make so much money. And then we did that. But then when all your, when you're, when you're. The majority of the economy is now just consuming, like I think consumption and creation. I think that's the biggest difference between the trades.
- [51:31]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [51:32]
Aaron Witz
And a majority of knowledge work. A majority of the knowledge workers are not creating anything.
- [51:38]
Marcus Sheridan
That's very true.
- [51:39]
Aaron Witz
They're, they're like most of the, like most of the biggest industries in America are in a lot of ways parasitic. They just extract. They just take. They just take. And this is what I always thought and it's been this like paradigm shift in my head. I always thought anybody wealthy had created something because that's how it was growing up. That is so far from reality. So far from reality. Most of them have just, it's just these, these extractive industries. Whereas when you, when you're creating every day you can see what you're. And it goes back to human nature too. We didn't evolve on a computer. We didn't evolve working from home. We evolved making things in the world around other people. Making things in the world. Like it's, it's just, you're. The, the whole economy, it's working completely against human nature, which then all these mental health issues, physical health issues, declining birth rate, declining life expectancy, declining literacy. Like you go down the list, it's no wonder that's happened when you, when you just obliterate what got us here in the first place. The.
- [52:57]
Marcus Sheridan
To this, if I could add, yes, I think I've talked a lot about this over the course of time, but. And we've hit on this a little bit. But as anybody listening in this space right now should say, there's never going to be a window of opportunity to attract people to this industry like I have over the next 10 years. And if I am going to get in front of that, I need to approach things a little bit differently. I can't continue to live in this space of this paradigm of nobody wants to work and the trades. Blue collar's dying. I do need to recognize that, oh my goodness, the tide has turned. But we now need to tell and show our story better than we ever have before. Of course, this is what you're doing. You're doing it. Mike. Rose doing it, but there's just not enough Aaron Witz and Mike Rose. There's got to be. Those are Mac like you're like larger macro style, you know, influencer in the space. But there needs to be these micro influencers that are key persons of influence that are willing to get out there and start to show and tell the story. That is that thing that you do, whatever it is, that thing like whatever that is. Because right now you could be creating that video on Facebook and you could be saying, hey, worried about AI in your future? Guess what? You've got a future here. This is what it looks like. This is why it's fun. And then you interview some team members and you say, why do you like it here? What's good about your job? What do you love about this? Now the difference though, is where we have to do better this time is one of the reasons why so many people did leave the trades is they got treated like crap because it was poor leadership and the leaders felt like this is grunt work or this isn't these, these people, I'm not going to treat them as really civilized, smart, intelligent, wonderful human beings. That's got to be the shift that we make. So we've got to be ready for it from a branding and messaging perspective. We got to get it out there. Like there's this incredible movement that's happening. You can be a part of it. You can have that security, you can have that fulfillment. You can be a creator and not a consumer. It's like all those things and we've got to invest in leadership better than we have. And I'm not saying that because we're on the dirt talk podcasts and because that's something that build with does. I'm saying it because it's freaking true. We continue to have a serious problem in terms of the way we lead, in terms of the way we communicate, and it's because we just don't train. Training, training, training. This is the dearth. It's no different than in most industries. They you can tell the sales culture by just simply asking the question, how many times do you have a sales training per month where you're actually doing role plays and you know, you're actually working on, you're practicing. Most will say maybe once a month, but it's usually again once every six to 12 months. The organizations that do it weekly, they crush. They're extraordinary. They've got these incredible habits. And it's the same thing with great organizations from a leadership perspective. They are constantly in a State of leadership development, constantly doing training, and they take it really, really, really seriously. But of course, as you know, in this industry, everything is about time on the job site. Can't pull them off the field, can't take them out the field. And because of that, we are constantly in this, like, hamster wheel state where we feel like it's spinning, but we're not actually getting anywhere from a leadership growth perspective. It's just because we refuse to say, like a Garcia would, hey, we're going to stop for a second and we're going to make this a core part of who we are and what we do.
- [57:19]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're preaching the choir here. I actually think the whole workforce challenge starts and ends with the existing workforce. I don't think it's an external thing at all. I actually, and I've been thinking, and I enjoy podcasting. You do quite a bit of podcasting.
- [57:38]
Marcus Sheridan
Sure.
- [57:39]
Aaron Witz
It's quite fun because you can work through ideas.
- [57:43]
Marcus Sheridan
It's forced cognition.
- [57:44]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah, it's. But it's like, this is where I workshop stuff. But something I'm workshopping is I think the trades are demoralized. I think society has demoralized the trades. And you go on to job sites and it's, it's true. I. And speaking of an energy thing, you know, from an energy perspective, most sites I'd go to are low energy. I would say it's not a high energy environment. It can be. And when you see it high energy, boy, is it amazing. It is. Oh, boy. It is just my. I, I get excited. Like, you'll, you'll see me just, just, just light up at some of these operations that are just high energy and everything is beautiful. But that's the rarity. And it doesn't have to be that way. But when, when you've been told by society that you don't matter for decades, what happens is, yeah, you're demoralized when you're told that, like, you're on the bottom rung because you couldn't go to college or because you're. You weren't good enough or whatever it is. Like, yeah, you're, you're on the bottom. And so it starts, it starts there. Like we have this demoralization problem, which is, which is a huge bummer because I grew up again, like, I talk about this a lot because I've seen most people never meet rich people or see these upper echelons of society. I've seen it. I spent summers in Aspen like friends, dads, billionaires, Like, I've seen it, I've seen it. And you think that like that's the pinnacle of society. There's nothing beyond that. Nothing. But I'm telling you, when I watch a talented mechanic work or a talented welder or a pipe crew that's just well oiled machine or an operator that's been doing it for 38 years, same machine. Same machine. There is nothing cooler than that to me. There is nothing cooler that I have seen that, that just that level of skill is so beautiful and extraordinary. It's something worth celebrating. But we have to celebrate it, we have to talk about it. And this is where like hence my frustration for a lot of companies now. But it's, it's great because it's gonna, it's, it's, it's really not that big of a problem that say, like, well, we don't want to talk about it or it's like a big one. Recently said it's against their company policy. It's against, no, it's, it's against their corporate policy to allow outside media on projects. I'm like, really? Okay. Like you're big time. That, that's a tricky place to be. Like, I'll be the first one to say, I mean, myself aside, there's a huge flaw in that policy.
- [60:38]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, that's very, very problematic.
- [60:40]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah, but, but it's like, okay, I'm tired of playing around. I'm tired of letting lawyers getting in the way and these people get in the way. I'm like, I'm just gonna go over here and play with those that, that, that want us. If you don't want us, that's fine. But I am gonna do everything I can to make these individuals successful.
- [61:01]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right.
- [61:02]
Aaron Witz
And there's all the time, like, I've got great videos, photos, et cetera, of companies that sometimes I'm just like, I'm not going to post this, I'm not going to share this because I don't want to give them any additional exposure. Like my exposure is valuable and I don't want to give it to them. I'm going to go give it to somebody else that's deserving of it.
- [61:19]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right.
- [61:19]
Aaron Witz
And maybe that's petty, but I'm just tired of playing.
- [61:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, I mean, but I totally get that. Because if they're not thinking outside the walls of their own organization, if they're not thinking about the industry as a whole and like elevating the dirt world as a whole, then it would be very, very hard for me to have that, like, strong desire to continue to feed them, it just doesn't make. It just doesn't feel right at that point.
- [61:43]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [61:43]
Marcus Sheridan
Knowing that so many others see this as, like, see like, the big picture possibilities here, you know, what really could, you know, we do. And it's like, it's just like. I had a viral post on LinkedIn one time. That was a photo of a panel box, electrical panel box that my son sent me. And it was just one morning. He sends me this photo, and it's a, you know, electrical panel box, and there's wires just freaking everywhere. Aaron. I mean, it looks like the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, this is a disaster. And he says, I get to fix this today. I am so fired up. And he was. He was stoked to bring order to the chaos. Like, jazzed about it. And I'm like, this is extraordinary. That right there is the essence of like. Like, I would be so afraid of that personally. He was ready to dive into that. Like, just ready to run into the fire. He was so, so excited about that. I'm like, is it possible that other people see that same passion and realize, you know what? You can have that passion for this man to fix this problem? I mean, there's. There is a reason why God made us different. He did not intend for everyone to be a knowledge worker. Well, I guess we're all knowledge workers, yes, to a degree, but you know, you know what I'm saying. He certainly didn't intend for everyone to work behind a desk. I am positive of that. I can confidently say if he was here with us right now, he would say, I absolutely did not intend for everyone to work behind a desk. And as soon as we really all fully start to embrace that message, we're going to be better off for it. But the golden age is coming, and everybody should start saying that everybody that's listening to this should start saying that everybody should start seeing themselves as more of a media company that should be showing and telling the story of what's happening within the trades, what's happening within the dirt world, and how the rest of the world is invited to come and join the party, because that's exactly what it's going to be over the next couple of decades.
- [64:05]
Aaron Witz
It's. I want to talk more about the AI stuff because you've gone into, like, in my opinion, you've gone into, like, this cocoon over the past few years, and then it reemerged as this new being within this AI. World. Like, I mean, maybe what, three years ago had you really talked about AI at all?
- [64:23]
Marcus Sheridan
I never talked about it.
- [64:25]
Aaron Witz
You're talking about all the time.
- [64:26]
Marcus Sheridan
And it's funny. I've got some of the biggest brands in the world that are asking me questions about AI, and sometimes before they ask, I'm like, are you sure you want to ask me that question? But you know what it is, Aaron? I have the ability to talk about things that are complicated in a way that everyone can understand it.
- [64:45]
Aaron Witz
Sure.
- [64:45]
Marcus Sheridan
Because I'm not trying to sound smart. I am not trying to sound smart with this audience right now. I am only seeking to be understood. That's what's called communion. That's the goal. Communion, community, common, all the same root. That's what I'm trying to do. And so when it comes to the way that we really spread the message to the rest of the world, just remember it's dumb not to dumb it down. And I didn't always understand what that phrase meant, but I learned it more and more over the course of time. The biggest mistake that speakers make is they try to appear smart on stage. When they release that, they're so much more effective. So if I'm talking about AI, and I know we're going to get into it now, I know that there's a huge portion of people that are much more expert in AI than I am, but where I'm good is I do explain things in a simple way, and I do see around the turn better than most.
- [65:49]
Aaron Witz
But the problem with a lot of the AI experts right now is that they're saying this is going to happen. Anybody that's saying this is going to happen, I know is like, all right, snake in the grass. Like, I'm staying away. And maybe you're right, but, like, you have. You have no better idea than anybody else.
- [66:07]
Marcus Sheridan
Like, yeah, it's. It is wild, wild speculation.
- [66:12]
Aaron Witz
It's wild specula. I mean, I listened to an interview with Sam Altman the other day, and even he was, like, wildly uncertain. And this is like, oh, yeah, the guy in this world, yeah, he's seeing.
- [66:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Things, like, way ahead, because he's got pretty privy, like, he's privy to what is, let's call it right now, ChatGPT5, which most of us haven't used, except some of the people at OpenAI. And when ChatGPT 5 comes out once again, we're going to have a total mind bender moment, and we're going to say, what? How's this even possible? And it's going to Further accelerate everything that you and I are talking about.
- [66:52]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, but what's the AI stuff? You can go down the rabbit hole of anxiety. You can. I mean, you can go off the deep end.
- [67:01]
Marcus Sheridan
Sure. Or can we talk about that really quick, though?
- [67:03]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, sure, go for it.
- [67:07]
Marcus Sheridan
Anybody that has ever heard of the principle of the circle of influence, now is the time you have to go back to that principle, which is what can make us most happy and most at peace in our lives is not when we look outside of our circle of influence, because we can't change that, but we look and we control what's inside of our circle of influence. I am not going to affect, necessarily in most cases, and I'm not saying you're ignorant, but I'm not going to affect what Donald J. Trump or what Joe Biden does when they're in the White House. I can't do that. So I'm not going to lose my mind over it. What can I affect? I can affect what happens within the companies that I own, within my family and my own personal, like, space. Like, what do I do with my body, what I do with my time, what do I do with my mind? And so you and I are not going to control if AI is the end of the world. The second you and I accept that, as I will not control whether or not AI is or is not the end of the world, well, then you move past it. Sure. Because, case in point, let's say, hypothetically that the Terminator does come in 25 years. Okay, so we got 25 years. I want my businesses to be very successful between now and then.
- [68:39]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's fair.
- [68:41]
Marcus Sheridan
And I'm going to focus on that because it's within my circle. So if you are listening to this, focus, please, as to what's within your circle, and if it's not in your circle, it doesn't mean that you have to be aloof to it, but it shouldn't drive you insane. It shouldn't control your life. And the reason why most people are so utterly freaking unhappy is because they're obsessed with everything outside of their circle of influence and they haven't fixed what's inside their circle.
- [69:12]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Starting with their household.
- [69:14]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct.
- [69:14]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. And that, that's the lane I tend to occupy. I like that lane better. It's more productive, I feel like.
- [69:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Yep.
- [69:24]
Aaron Witz
But the, the AI conversation has brought.
- [69:26]
Marcus Sheridan
Me.
- [69:28]
Aaron Witz
Again, this, this sense of, like, relief in a way as well. Like, you know, you can go down the rabbit hole, but it, but it's Brought me this sense of relief that is like, I've bet on the right skills, which is communication, creativity.
- [69:46]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [69:47]
Aaron Witz
Leadership, problem solving, leadership, critical thinking. Like, it's proven. It's. It's proving more and more. That's like, oh, thank God I made the right investment here. I spent the past decade investing in the most valuable thing I could have, in my opinion. And maybe that's wrong, but it's only driving that to be more valuable. Even creativity. Even photography. Even writing. Like, writing especially. It's. I chuckle when people are like, well, this is just going to take writing. I'm like, you know, it's going to take shitty writing. Like, that's exactly what it's going to take. And it's going to create a bunch of nonsense like most LinkedIn now is. Is written by AI. And it's. And it's hilarious. It's like every. It's so easy and it creates it just like it's added so much volume to LinkedIn as well, because it's just so. Everything is so drawn out now. I'm like, I don't have time for any of this. But I feel like it's made having a legitimate voice even more valuable because. Because now everybody's writing using this tool, so now it's just commoditized. Sure, this. And you're no different than anybody else. But if you can, like, even when you read a. You can in a lot of ways. You can tell if somebody's written their book. Like, most people don't write their books. Most, I would say, yeah, you absolutely can tell. You can tell because it's like there's nuance.
- [71:21]
Marcus Sheridan
There's human nuance. Everything.
- [71:23]
Aaron Witz
It sounds like them. It's like, this sounds like them. So I know they wrote this, which I find just much more fun to read, and it's much more compelling. You get drawn in on whatever the subject is just because it's different. It's not just the same words presented in a different way. And so I've. I've dwelled upon that and that doesn't, you know, save me from. From every change. But, boy, am I, like. I'm like, relieved now that I've spent so much time on this because I'm like, I'll always have this. I'll always have my voice, or I'll always have my ability to create a beautiful photograph that means something to somebody that can't be taken from me.
- [72:10]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. And let's assume for a second, though, that it was. What good does it do to complain about it sure. Well, yeah, the amount of people that are suddenly just, you know, the AI police, these folks that usually in their LinkedIn profile have the word creative somewhere in the profile.
- [72:39]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [72:41]
Marcus Sheridan
I never got attacked on LinkedIn until I started writing about AI.
- [72:46]
Aaron Witz
Really?
- [72:47]
Marcus Sheridan
Never. And now I just get drilled all the time. And why? Because it's this carnal protection mode. These people feel personally threatened. What folks don't realize is that every single thing we do from a job perspective, every tool we use replaced another job. Another tool. Every single one. And so suddenly we started to care. Nobody cared. When we shifted over from fax machines to, let's say, Internet or whatever we started using, nobody cared. Nobody cared. We went from Polaroids to digital film. The only thing they said, this is amazing. Nobody felt for all those people that lost their jobs. Nobody felt for Kodak because of the fact that they lost essentially their entire brand. Right. Nobody felt for them. But suddenly now we're saying, hey, this is a problem. Because why? Because we feel threatened. Yet the same people that feel threatened are the ones that are going to say, I absolutely want to use this new medicine that AI discovered to help cure Ms. Or cancer or whatever it is. Reality is most of the cures for these terrible, deadly diseases pretty much exist. They do exist. There's no question they exist. The problem is we haven't put the data together in a way that shows us the patterns so that we can say, oh, there it is right there. AI does that. So what's going to happen, Aaron, is you're going to see these incredible advancements. Just incredible advancements where we all benefit. We all benefit from the health side of this. We're all going to benefit from living longer. Yet at the same time, there's going to be many people that are going to say, but I have a problem with this part of it. Beggars can't be choosers. I know if you and I right now were said, somebody presented to us like, hey, we found the cure for cancer, but you're going to have to lose your companies and start over. I'd say yes in a second. Like, I wouldn't even blink.
- [74:57]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [74:59]
Marcus Sheridan
Now, I don't think we're going to lose our companies, but I would totally be willing to do it. And it doesn't. I can. I will make this bet right now. And there's. I mean, I don't make a ton of bets on the future, but the ones I. When I do bet, typically that bet does pay. I can tell you right now, you do not want to be on the side of history where all you do is complain about AI and brag about the fact that you don't use AI and also brag about the fact that 100% of everything you do is human only, non AI. That's not bragging rights right there. That's mostly ignorance. And that is also quite a bit of self protectionism. But it's. You're not, you're not actually improving. You know, the most creative I've ever been as a thinker has been in the last year. I am on a roll. The best ideas I've ever had and I'm using AI as an assistant. You see, a lot of people make the mistake of calling AI a tool. It's just a tool. It's not a tool. If you had right now out here in your office where we are, if you had 25 interns typing way in there and we were walking through, would you call them tools? You would never call them tools.
- [76:30]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [76:31]
Marcus Sheridan
Researching and yeah, these are assistants that are helping you. These are assistants. AI, when you look at it like a tool, you're greatly underselling what it can do, probably out of ignorance. But it's not a tool. It's like me saying, you know, electricity is the greatest tool ever invented. Electricity is a lot more than a tool. Water is a lot more than a tool. AI is right there. Electricity and water, in terms of its impact on the world, I mean, that's really what it is.
- [76:59]
Aaron Witz
It needs a lot of both electricity and water to happen.
- [77:02]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah, it does. And that's not an accident because that's the way God made it.
- [77:05]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah.
- [77:06]
Marcus Sheridan
You know, and oh, by the way, if anything is ever going to solve our energy problems, it's going to be AI.
- [77:11]
Aaron Witz
Well, and so going back to your solution, like, I think we already have the solution for energy. I think we already have the solution to a lot of these medical issues. Yeah, I think data one thing, but I also think it's because there's been gatekeepers to information. I mean, it's like what, like religion gets just smashed open when the Bible's translated and now everybody has access to the same information.
- [77:38]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct.
- [77:40]
Aaron Witz
It's crazy. You can see stuff like unraveling for these big corporations, governments, et cetera, in real time. It's like, holy shit.
- [77:48]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [77:49]
Aaron Witz
They don't even know this is unraveling right now. But now, I mean, some of the, even on podcasts, like the information I have access to nowadays or through AI, just the, the information and how fast it moves, it's Just like, wow, this is crazy. Crazy. I mean, you've talked a lot about Google and like, Google very curated. They determine what you see. It's like that's just been blown wide open.
- [78:16]
Marcus Sheridan
That's why you're not going to use them in five years.
- [78:18]
Aaron Witz
No. And that was the company that was like, that was the front door to the Internet.
- [78:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [78:24]
Aaron Witz
For. For. That was. That was the impenetrable fortress. There was no possible way you were ever going to get around this company. And now, like, I. I mean, I've religiously used Google since I had the Internet in middle school, whatever it was, elementary school. I've stopped using it because it's so frustrating, because it's so inefficient, because it's so irrelevant. And that's happened in like a year.
- [78:51]
Marcus Sheridan
And I'm like, it's wild. It's wild, isn't it? Yes. But, you know, you make a point about Google. Google had every reason to win this battle, but it's a tale as old as time. I was looking at a commercial that was about 30 years old the other day and was from the richest company in the world at the time. 30 might have been 35 years ago. And that company was AT&T. And AT&T was. They produced a commercial that showed two people talking to each other over a video conference. And essentially the point of the video is, this is coming. Sure. And we're going to help bring this to you.
- [79:32]
Aaron Witz
And damn them for doing it.
- [79:38]
Marcus Sheridan
Did AT&T, did they found video conferencing? No. Yet they were the richest company in the world. It was. They created the first commercial that, hey, this is going to happen. They said they were going to make it happen, and they didn't do it.
- [79:58]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah.
- [80:00]
Marcus Sheridan
And we see this over and over again. I mean, that's the pride cycle, though. That's how it works. You know, we get fat and happy, and then we stop doing the little things that got us there and we become protective of what we've got.
- [80:13]
Aaron Witz
Protect and defend.
- [80:14]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right. And because of that, we get stagnant. And because of that, we slide until we finally get to enough pain where we say, oh, I screwed up. And then all of a sudden we have to say, well, I guess I better stop eating those Twinkies.
- [80:30]
Aaron Witz
Well, and that's where I think a lot of these big companies are in that danger zone without even knowing it yet. Cause it's like, oh, no. They'll say things, do things, et cetera, that just expose their old model of thinking and it's like, oh my gosh, you still think the world works that way? You still think you have information that I don't have?
- [80:56]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right.
- [80:56]
Aaron Witz
I have everything you have.
- [80:58]
Marcus Sheridan
You are, you are not a gatekeeper.
- [80:59]
Aaron Witz
No, it's like that's, that's out the window. That was, that was gone years ago, but you're still working on this old operating system that's, that's irrelevant now and only becoming more and more relevant faster and faster. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's spectacular. It is. So, and to your point on the trades too, just looking around like, holy shit, I could not be in a better position right now. Like, yes.
- [81:30]
Marcus Sheridan
Oh my gosh, you've never been in a better position to start a business.
- [81:33]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
- [81:34]
Marcus Sheridan
You have everything you need right now to where you can start a business and build things that you would have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on before now. You can build in minutes.
- [81:47]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [81:48]
Marcus Sheridan
It's such a wonderful time. It is the ultimate equalizer. I mean, and as we look ahead over and over again, we're going to see the Digital Davids will slay the Goliaths. They're the ones that are still leaning into being as human as they can be while taking advantage of what tech and what AI has to offer. And it doesn't have to be an either or. The problem is, is you've got the humanist and then you've got these futurists. You can be both.
- [82:19]
Aaron Witz
I think you have to be both.
- [82:21]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes, yes, you should be both. And it's okay to say yes. AI could really screw up the world and it's going to very much benefit me, my life, my business. And so I'm going to use it accordingly.
- [82:37]
Aaron Witz
Well, so here's the irony of all this as well, is that I actually really like this. The ones cursing AI, a lot of times, the older school folks, they're cursing AI until Meta comes to them, says, Hey, $250 million to help us build Data center. Sign me up, let's go.
- [83:01]
Marcus Sheridan
Isn't that interesting?
- [83:04]
Aaron Witz
Where's your backlog from Data Centers?
- [83:07]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right. Well, you know, speaking of Meta, I had was really interesting to me when Meta came out. And if you recall, they consumed something like, I think it was like 80,000. Might have been more than that. Books that they used to train their model with. And there was a list that showed all the books that were used. A bunch of my author friends got really, really upset, so I went to this list And I was like, okay, let's see if I'm on this list. Three of my books were on the list that Meta had used.
- [83:46]
Aaron Witz
Congratulations.
- [83:47]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, I was like, isn't that wonderful? I wrote this so that the world could have it, and now it's training AI so that the world can have it. But, you see, I'm always coming from a place of abundance. That's just the way that I think. Because what's the alternative? The alternative kind of sucks.
- [84:08]
Aaron Witz
Yes, it's more fun. It does suck. It's like, you're just miserable all the time. Yes.
- [84:13]
Marcus Sheridan
And I'm not going to go down that road. You know, I've got a. I've got a commitment to live an extraordinary, fulfilling life. So I'm going to do. And that's the choice that I have made. And like everybody else, you know, I've got my. You know, I've got my challenges, but I'm going to enjoy this ride. And I'm really, really enjoying what is happening. I mean, I get up every day. Right now I feel pretty superhuman because of the amount of work I can do today versus what I was doing a few years ago.
- [84:38]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Has Meta taking your books ruined your life?
- [84:43]
Marcus Sheridan
Not in the slightest. And for some reason, people still buy the books. Isn't that amazing?
- [84:48]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. You probably sold plenty of books.
- [84:50]
Marcus Sheridan
Isn't that amazing? It's wild how that works. You know, they haven't stolen my ip, like, but I was always the speaker that thought it was weird when the event organizer would reach out to me and say, is it okay if we use this video for anything else? That one that we recorded of you? And I was like, send it to your grandmother. Let's go. But, you know, there's a lot of speakers that are like, you cannot reproduce this in any way, shape or form. I just don't think like that, man. I'm just not that obsessed with hoarding my ip, because I do believe I am a capitalist that very much believes in the greater good. I think they can coincide quite nicely.
- [85:33]
Aaron Witz
Well, that's what I've always gone like. Photographers are weirdly protective of their ip, which I get. I'm sure you could argue it, and it makes sense. Perfect. Good for you. I've always viewed it like, I'm going to be so good that everybody just knows it's my photograph. I don't need to put my name on it for people worldwide to know if it was mine.
- [85:58]
Marcus Sheridan
That's kind of cool. And thinking about all your photography now, I'm like, I Can tell an Aaron.
- [86:04]
Aaron Witz
Photo when I see it and I feel like I'm there or getting there. Yeah, exactly.
- [86:08]
Marcus Sheridan
Like I could be scrolling through LinkedIn. I don't have to see it was from you because I just see the photo first. Of course, I know immediately when I see an Aaron photo.
- [86:18]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. But it, but it's, but to your point too, it's so it's kind of. I have to be. You know, you got to be gentle about it because it's emotionally charged and a lot of feelings. But with the IP stuff and even like people getting lawyers involved and stuff, it always really confuses me because I'm like, you could. The only person that wins here is the lawyer. That's the only winner in this scenario. And every. I see it a lot in business. Business. There's a lot of ego and I've been wrong. So I'm gonna go get my right. But it's like, you spend how much time and energy getting the right. Like, what's it, what's the true cost of the right? Because I don't think I've ever, I mean, not personally, I don't think I've ever seen it worthwhile, like chasing something down. It's. Even if you get a massive settlement, it's like, at what cost?
- [87:11]
Marcus Sheridan
Are you, are you better for it?
- [87:12]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [87:13]
Marcus Sheridan
Are you elevate your energy or did it take away? Yeah, and that's, I mean, it's usually the first question I'm asking at this point in my life. Is gonna, Is it gonna elevate my, my overall energy, how I'm vibrating or is it going to diminish? Is it going to take away? It's going to take away. I'm just not gonna play. It's not interested.
- [87:30]
Aaron Witz
Speaking of energy, though, I know we did our. You've been on the podcast before, but it was remote. I can't. Like, something that does not give me energy is remote podcasting. It's, it is, it's. I struggle with it so badly, so. Because the, I just. And some people can get it. Good for them.
- [87:49]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [87:50]
Aaron Witz
The energy transfer and the cadence and like, it's, it, I, I, I can't do it.
- [87:58]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, it's a nuance of human connection. I mean, it's. Yes. And, and that's like, there's a lot of actual science behind this. But if you look at the most popular podcasts in the world right now, because pretty much they're all interview format. Find one that is remote.
- [88:16]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. And I haven't seen many get away with it.
- [88:19]
Marcus Sheridan
They. The. The only ones that do it, do it occasionally, but primarily it's almost always in person.
- [88:28]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Yeah.
- [88:29]
Marcus Sheridan
All the upper echelons, the top 1% of all podcasts that are interview based. It's just pretty much all of them. The person is with someone else. Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson. Yeah, go down the list. It's live, it's in person. There's a reason for that now, I mean, like, what is that? What does that mean for business? It just means that if you think you're going to build extraordinarily deep connection by only being remote, you're not.
- [89:01]
Aaron Witz
No. No, I'm not. I don't think remote work from home is good for people.
- [89:11]
Marcus Sheridan
No. I think we're going to see such a big shift on this as a whole. One of the very first statements God said was man was not meant to be alone.
- [89:32]
Aaron Witz
The other statement which was in his demise.
- [89:35]
Marcus Sheridan
But the other. Yeah, the other. The other. Well, it was for a.
- [89:41]
Aaron Witz
For a bigger reason.
- [89:42]
Marcus Sheridan
Man doth not understand God's plan. Right. So. So there was. There was. There was purpose in that.
- [89:48]
Aaron Witz
Man would have been just fine. He would have been hanging out in the garden.
- [89:51]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, man as in man and woman. Right. Man and women were not meant to be alone. The second of that was by the sweat of thy brow. Okay. It's really interesting that some of the first statements ever made by God to us as his children were very explicit about what drives happiness and fulfillment. And I know we've talked about this a little bit, but we need interaction. Most of us are not supposed to be a hobbit. And those that become a hobbit usually become very, very unhappy because they end up replacing what is the human to human with really freaking odd behavior online. And those tend to be generally unproductive people that have more issues than others. I'm saying generally there's exceptions, of course, to the things I'm saying. So we need to be with people. We need to be with people in person. We need our own tribe and we need to be a part of tribes. And if we're not, then people start doing dumb stuff.
- [91:09]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [91:10]
Marcus Sheridan
And they start to seek fulfillment elsewhere. Every time I have a child over the years because I've got four kids, I've got one grandson, I've got a granddaughter coming. Every time they've been off kilter over the years, I've asked the same question. What's your worthy cause right now? What's your worthy cause right now? And every single time, like, I guess I don't have one, dad, like, of course. Because when you don't have a worthy cause, you get in trouble because being sedentary, inactivity is the devil's playground. That's not a religious statement. That's just truth. Inactivity is such a massive downfall for all of us. So this is why lots of times people will say, well, I just need a break from humans. You might need a little bit, but as a whole, you really, really need to be with other humans. Otherwise you're going to start to spiral.
- [92:12]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, well. And where I'd go first is like, I don't. Have you exercised recently? What's your sleep like? What are you eating? How much are you drinking? Like, I'm going to go there before I go. Yeah, it's your interactions that are problem.
- [92:24]
Marcus Sheridan
Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, these are. I mean, that's obviously, that's a really, really big one. But you need worthy causes in your life. You need worthy people in relationships in your life.
- [92:36]
Aaron Witz
How. How do you help a child in that scenario?
- [92:44]
Marcus Sheridan
In other words, when they say, hey, when they.
- [92:46]
Aaron Witz
When they don't have a worthy cause.
- [92:48]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah.
- [92:49]
Aaron Witz
How do you even guide them in that. In that situation?
- [92:54]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. Well, what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to say, well, have you thought about such and such? Because that's leading the witness. And they're not. They're not thinking. That's the lawyer right there. What I'm going to do is. Well, let's see if we can figure this out. Okay. What are some. What are some things for a while that you have felt almost prompted, like I should do that, but you just haven't acted on it yet. Now, the first answer is going to be. If you remember, if you've been listening, Aaron, the first answer they're going to say to that. Do you know what it's going to be?
- [93:24]
Aaron Witz
Oh, man. It's just. I'm not sure.
- [93:27]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, I'm not sure, Dad. I don't know. And then you're going to come back.
- [93:31]
Aaron Witz
And you're going to say, well, if you had to.
- [93:35]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes. If you had to say one thing that maybe is a prompting that you've had. I was like, you know, I think I should probably do that, or I'd be interested in that. Tell me what that is. Boom. Okay, then we're gonna start to. By the way, good job on that. You passed test dog.
- [93:52]
Aaron Witz
Very well done.
- [93:53]
Marcus Sheridan
Okay, so that is. That's a starting point, but I'm gonna also just ask them just general questions. I Want you to think about your perfect day. Close your eyes for a second. I'm not you, but I want you to think about what are you doing on your perfect day? Who's there? What's the activity that you're doing? Tell me about it. You know, it's interesting you do that. Never involves electronics ever. It's just wild because we always do that. I'll do that with different youth groups and stuff. We'll do like what's your perfect day activity? Nobody ever says I'm on my phone. So I love. As we're saying now. What did you not mention there? Why do you think you didn't mention that? Oh, gosh. Well, I guess that's not leading me much happiness. This is why every single child should, should once a week take a Sabbath from their phone for at least a period of hours. And now this is like adults too, by the way.
- [94:48]
Aaron Witz
I think it's.
- [94:49]
Marcus Sheridan
I mean this is totally adults too, by the way. But if you're not, if you're not taking six hour Sabbath from your phone at least once a week, there's a pretty good chance you've got a full blown addiction right now. Mm.
- [95:02]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, it's interesting. That's an interesting way to put it because like we said in the beginning, they typically will have a pretty good answer. Yeah, typically they will. Typically they'll know kind of where they should go and, and, and it's really just as easy as like, it's not as easy but like finding the thread and then just starting to pull the thread and sometimes it comes up, well, now there was actually nothing there. But then it's like, okay, then you can close that door, you know, what's at least behind it. You can say, not for me, where's another thread? And hopefully you find that one that you can just keep pulling because the more you pull it, the more reveals itself and then the more you just. Yeah, you keep working with it rather than against it is the way I explain it to people. Like I just. All of this, it was me. I love bulldozers, I love excavators, I love machines. I want to be around machines all the time. There's machines in my neighborhood. I want to be around these machines. There was one, it was a 385 excavator. Beautiful machine. I'd never seen an excavator this big in my life. It was spectacular. Like that size machine right there. But it was right in the neighborhood, narrow street, so it looked even bigger. And everybody was pissed off about it. It's a bunch of rich people. How dare you do construction in my neighborhood, you damn construction workers. I just wanted to be around it all. It was like I was just intoxicated by everything. The first time I saw it with the owner of the company, we walk right up to it and just like the sound, the smell, the. The. I mean, it was making the earth vibrate because it was so big. It was ripping rock. I could not get enough. So I was like, I just want to be around it all the time. How do I do that? I get a job on this crew. There you go. That was it. That was the thread. I like this. I want to be around this. Let's just start pulling. And fortunately, I found the right one pretty quick, and I can just, you know, I could just. I've just kept pulling since. But I think people, they. They get fooled into thinking there's like this. You need this, like, grand strategy or plan before you get going. It's like, that's the. That's one of the greatest fallacies out there. Like, oh, yeah, the strategy, the plan reveals itself to you through action, through work, like you have to do.
- [97:42]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah. It's almost like you don't see where the path is supposed to go until you start walking the path. Yes, it is. It is the same thing. And same is true with content creation. I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, it's like if. If we needed to have the perfect outline. If you needed to have the perfect outline for every podcast that you record, you wouldn't record very many.
- [98:04]
Aaron Witz
No, it wouldn't be fun.
- [98:05]
Marcus Sheridan
But you. You say, I know that there's going to be moments from this that I take. There's going to be moments I don't take. But I'm gonna go. And we're just gonna. We're gonna see where this takes us very organically, very naturally. And that's how you. That's how you become a storyteller. That's how you become a better communicator. You don't do it by, you know, paralysis by analysis, which is certainly what a lot of these companies have, and I'm sure you've seen it, too. A lot of these massive brands are absolute. Just atrocious at really telling their story and showing their story.
- [98:36]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [98:37]
Marcus Sheridan
Because they say things like, well, that's. That's not to our brand standard, which to me is like, you do not understand at all. Because what's so fascinating is especially someone that's, you know, has been, you know, heavily involved in YouTube you've been very involved in YouTube. You're one of the, you know, now top in the world. Oftentimes, the more polished a video is, the less views it gets.
- [99:04]
Aaron Witz
Exactly.
- [99:04]
Marcus Sheridan
It's really, really wild. And I know, and without asking you, I know you've tinkered with this over the course of time because you battle between how organic do we make it feel versus how polished. How high of a productivity value does it have?
- [99:32]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [99:32]
Marcus Sheridan
And there is this, like, weird world that you have to walk between for you as this person that's got a million, you know, subscribers on YouTube, because if it gets too nice, people stop watching and it's weird.
- [99:47]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [99:48]
Marcus Sheridan
But that's how it works.
- [99:49]
Aaron Witz
Oh, we had a debrief yesterday of the Indonesia trip, and one of the comments Jack made was because the other guy, Wyatt, was with us. He's. He's a. He's unbelievable at the shots he gets. But one of the comments Jack was like, hey, you haven't. Because he doesn't usually shoot with us. He's usually on the bigger, more cinematic projects, not on the vlog stuff. And Jack's comment was, wyatt, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but some of your shots are too good. Yes.
- [100:16]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [100:17]
Aaron Witz
But he was being serious. Like, yeah, I need less good shots to actually edit this. Like, some of them are fine. But that. We had that discussion yesterday morning. Like, this is. It's too high quality.
- [100:28]
Marcus Sheridan
Too high quality.
- [100:29]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [100:29]
Marcus Sheridan
It's weird. That was. That was the biggest. That was the big struggle. You know, I've got a. I've got a YouTube channel for offshore fishing. It's called. It's called Saltwater Fishing University.
- [100:43]
Aaron Witz
Nice.
- [100:43]
Marcus Sheridan
And our brand is Speechless Sport Fishing. And we're not as nearly as big as you, but we've got nearly 100,000 subscribers. And. Which isn't. Which isn't bad. And as we were. Have been growing the channel, when I started, I thought, here's what's going to make it go big. Catching big fish. It's like, we catch big fish. Channel go boom.
- [101:06]
Aaron Witz
Sure.
- [101:07]
Marcus Sheridan
So I'm like, all we got to do is catch big fish that easy. And so then we caught some big fish, and channel didn't go boom. But with enough time, I noticed there was a pattern. The pattern is, whenever we showed the struggle of business ownership, channel went boom. What people wanted from us was to see how hard it was to have, in our case, what is a commercial fishing and offshore charter fishing company and our journey to grow the brand. That's what they wanted. Just like when you started your YouTube channel, you thought you knew what it was. And literally with each video, the story is editing itself. It's the old adage, build it and they will come. It's like, okay, start walking the path as we said, and you will start to see where it's supposed to go. So for you, how has it changed for your YouTube channel without even like ever having to ask you this? I'm sure you thought it was going to be something and now it's becoming something else. So what is that?
- [102:26]
Aaron Witz
So it's. I was. And it wasn't my intent, but I was positioned as the expert.
- [102:33]
Marcus Sheridan
Okay.
- [102:34]
Aaron Witz
And now I am just the host.
- [102:40]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, you're just a facilitator.
- [102:42]
Aaron Witz
Go figure. Like, that's not groundbreaking, but yeah, now I'm just. The more I can bring people along, the better things do.
- [102:50]
Marcus Sheridan
Which is interesting. Go figure, because you're. Now we're back where we started this conversation. You're busy making everyone else the hero and you're just directing the band. Yes, the band's getting the attention on this show, our fishing show. For me, it's the same thing. Most people have no idea that, like I have this career as a professional speaker, best selling author. I'm just the dumb guy that asks questions about fishing. Sure, I'm the dumb. Like, I literally, I am the student. That's why it's called Salt Artifician University. And my business partner there, captain of the boat, he is more of the hero. He's the good old boy. Right. That is just trying to make a name for himself. And the other companies that we interview, they are the heroes. We're not the hero. So it's so much easier when you try not to be the hero. And then it gives you the ability just to freely ask questions and have these incredible conversations. And of course, that's what you're doing really well. Plus it's impossible based on the significant projects that you're highlighting in the engineering that's behind them. You couldn't be the expert anyway. This is so far above anything that you ever studied. Right. So now you just get to be the fun curious, like the kid that's like, this is so cool.
- [104:21]
Aaron Witz
The. I will say it is. It's becoming really exciting. But YouTube is maddening. That's been the hardest platform by.
- [104:30]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes, it is.
- [104:30]
Aaron Witz
By a mile.
- [104:32]
Marcus Sheridan
Way harder than I ever thought. So much harder.
- [104:36]
Aaron Witz
Like, long form is really.
- [104:39]
Marcus Sheridan
Because when you think it's gonna go yard, it sucks. It's like it tanks. And when you think, ah, this one's okay. Boom, moonshot. And you're like, I am so frustrated because it's hard to figure out what is gonna drive the algorithm, what's gonna drive people. Yeah, it's difficult.
- [104:57]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. I mean, link. LinkedIn is. I think you made a post about this recently, how slow it goes. It's slow, but it's just, it's kind of a consistency thing. Like if you just do it for a long time and if you're doing it for a long time, you're hopefully getting better and better at it.
- [105:12]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [105:13]
Aaron Witz
It, you know, you'll, you'll. And, and there's some strategy to it. Like you can go, in the early days, I was connecting with everybody within my market because then if they hit accept, now I'm in my. Now I'm in their feed.
- [105:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Right.
- [105:23]
Aaron Witz
Which is my favorite, favorite function of LinkedIn is you can actually create your following.
- [105:28]
Marcus Sheridan
Sure.
- [105:28]
Aaron Witz
Like you can tailor your following, which is fantastic. But it's just slow. But it's not that hard to figure out. Whereas, like YouTube is. And it's long form. Like, I think it just. The long form and podcast too, it's. There's more room, like speaking for 60 seconds versus an hour. Like, there's just more room for error and for inexperience.
- [105:59]
Marcus Sheridan
Sure.
- [105:59]
Aaron Witz
Like it proves if you know what's going on or not in a way. Like, it's a. Oh, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's just more of a challenge. It's more of a test.
- [106:11]
Marcus Sheridan
There's a reason why most political candidates up until 2024 didn't do long form podcasts. Most of them still don't because they would be exposed for being actually quite ignorant.
- [106:24]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [106:24]
Marcus Sheridan
And this is why in the next presidential election, you're going to see over like, long form podcast will be everything. And our next president and every president thereafter, for the most part, will be the ones that are strong on long form podcast communication.
- [106:46]
Aaron Witz
Yeah.
- [106:46]
Marcus Sheridan
Because that's what's going to drive the people. But what's interesting, when you were talking about that, Aaron, you said something, and I wanted to ask you about this because I think it has a lot to do with your listeners too, which is when you started Builtwood, did you realize that you were going to become a media company that you yourself would become in many ways your own media company as well. So you're a media company within a media company right now, one might say, well, you're a brand within a media company. But Build Wit is a media company that happens to have training software that happens to put on an event. But it's a media company now and you are media. That's what you are. Did you know that's what was like. Did you expect. That's exactly how it's going to play out?
- [107:43]
Aaron Witz
0 like, I tell people the, the reason why I started sharing online again, I try to, I tell these things to, like, illustrate. It's not that complicated. I started sharing online to build a personal brand to become more employable. That was it.
- [108:03]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [108:03]
Aaron Witz
I just wanted more employment options. And if I had a brand, it wouldn't hurt me. Like, I might not be more employable, but I'm not going to be less employable. So this will just give me more options. And 1, 2, 6 HCSS calls me. They give me a giant raise. I moved down to Houston, Texas. That job would have never exist had it, had I not started sharing on social media, you know, six months prior. And so it worked. And then I started a business with it as well. So that, that's been fine as well. But now I wholly understand the importance of it. The economic engine is the software company. And that's why it was an easy decision to elevate Randy into the CEO position to operate the business and operate the software company. That's. That's his strength. He's. He's so much better at business than I will ever be. And I am like, I will admit that all day long. So then I have this lane that is media and brand that I can, I can dominate because I also don't want to be resting on our laurels and say, oh, look at us. We have this big brand. We're so powerful now. It's like, I am the number one critic of our brand. I'm like, I think our brand sucks because we can be so much bigger, so much more influential. There's so much more we can do. And it's given me that clear lane to run in now, which has been a blessing.
- [109:31]
Marcus Sheridan
But see, a lot of people couldn't have done well, could have, but wouldn't have done that because it means the acronym next to their name would have to change.
- [109:42]
Aaron Witz
Yes. Which is their identity.
- [109:44]
Marcus Sheridan
A lot of times that's the identity part. Whereas you understand where your zone of genius is versus where it's not. You just said it very clearly.
- [109:56]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
- [109:57]
Marcus Sheridan
And this goes back to that. 10x is better than 2x. You've read that book, right? 10x is better than 2x. Dr. Benjamin Hardy is it. But, but he talks about how as you grow in life, you consistently eliminate the 80% of activities that are not going to help you achieve your greatest goal and you keep focusing on the 20% that are going to help you to focus. So for example, when you started, you, you spend a lot of your time in general leadership, but you also spend a lot of your time building the brand and doing certain, like, you know, media activities. So then you shifted over the course of time and now what might have been only 20% of your time before doing the, let's say travel and storytelling now is becoming 80%. And that's going to evolve too because eventually, just like right now, you're doing a lot of speaking and you're doing storytelling and you're doing all these different things because you're in high demand. Eventually you're going to say, actually even though I'm getting paid to speak, I'm losing money when I speak because the storytelling has become so strong that that will need to shift and become part of your 20%. In other words, the 20% that I will do and I'm going to eliminate the 80%. So this is a constant evolution of what is the thing that you do. For me, I'm not on any of my leadership teams. I own like seven companies right now, like as a partner in seven different companies. But I'm not really on. I'm not actively, I'm definitely not leading any of them as the day to day CEO because I'm a terrible CEO. First to admit it. I've got no problem with it. I thrive as more of a brand ambassador. I'm an idea guy and I'm very confident and comfortable there. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do it really, really well. So I'm constantly moving towards that. Was I at one time handling a lot of activities that weren't the most fruitful? Yes, they were within the 80% at one time. And then I focused, kept focusing on the 20%. 20%. Now today, the 20% that drives the most for me by far is either being on a stage or on a podcast. It's where I need to spend all my time or producing a piece of content. It's all the same thing. But if I'm in a meeting about running one of my companies that is in the 80%, it's not the best use of my time and it's not going to help me to grow those companies the most. I need to get people that can do that.
- [112:44]
Aaron Witz
But the other stuff you do makes your speaking a lot more valuable. Like we were in the kitchen before this talking about how a lot of speakers you think would be great speakers aren't.
- [112:54]
Marcus Sheridan
They're not.
- [112:55]
Aaron Witz
Aren't great speakers.
- [112:56]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah.
- [112:56]
Aaron Witz
And I've noticed it's because they're speaking on something they've done in the past and then that stopped.
- [113:03]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct.
- [113:03]
Aaron Witz
And now they're just a speaker.
- [113:05]
Marcus Sheridan
Yep. And all they do is tell everybody else a story.
- [113:07]
Aaron Witz
And all they. It's like the guy that, you know, won the championship in high school, that just doesn't still. He's 43 years old.
- [113:13]
Marcus Sheridan
Rico.
- [113:14]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. And he doesn't shut up about the championship. It's like, good for you. Congratulations. But like, what did you do last week? What are you doing next week? Like, there's nothing if I just speak. There's just. No, there's nothing to that.
- [113:27]
Marcus Sheridan
Really good point. I have a multiplicity of sandboxes that I'm always playing in. And so what how it works for us is I will come up with ideas and then I'll tell my team members in the different companies, here's the idea. I want you to implement it within our sandbox here, and then I want you to let me know what's the result, and then I get to talk about it. It's great. It's really, really wonderful. So it allows me to constantly be in build mode and idea mode and iteration mode. And it keeps me really in front of most folks because I can constantly talk from a first person, like, here's what. Here's what we did. Here's a story that I can tell you from our perspective or from one of our clients perspectives. Either way, it feels much more real than necessarily saying, you know, here's what we did 20 years ago, or here's what this one company, you know, has done that I do not even like, know. I've never worked with them before, but I'm just telling their story better than they can tell their story well.
- [114:32]
Aaron Witz
It gives you a lot more credibility. This is where I also struggle with. They're really smart. Their story or their message is spot on. I'm like, I don't disagree with this, but I'm a little dismissive of it because they haven't. It's not backed by like a business.
- [114:48]
Marcus Sheridan
They're not in the game.
- [114:48]
Aaron Witz
Built. Yeah, yeah, they're not in the game. So it's like, I can only take so much from this because you're not in the game, and if you're not in the game, you don't understand the game.
- [114:59]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right. You Just can't people sense that?
- [115:02]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's a naive thought, but that's, you know, if somebody's in the game or not.
- [115:08]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, there is a difference and you can feel it. And now, I mean, granted, I mean, you know, it's like one of those things where if I speak at Dirt World this year, somebody might not say, well, he's, you know, he's not in, you know, commercial heavy, you know, construction or anything like that, but I'm in a cousin industry, if you will. So am I in the exact game? No, but we are playing a similar game and that is at least closer. But yeah, I think it matters. I think it matters a lot. I love being in the sandbox. I think it's a lot of freaking fun and I don't tire of it. And I feel like because of AI, I can actually be in way more sandboxes than I would have otherwise been in.
- [115:50]
Aaron Witz
Sure.
- [115:51]
Marcus Sheridan
And that's very interesting.
- [115:52]
Aaron Witz
Yeah. Well, we can wrap it up here. You new book?
- [115:59]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, I've got a new book, Endless Customers.
- [116:02]
Aaron Witz
Yes.
- [116:03]
Marcus Sheridan
It's actually great for recruiting too. The system works for recruiting, but if you want to become the most known and trusted brand in your market, you can pick it up. The thing that is most applicable to this audience though is I've got an extraordinary company called Question First Group, though, and we teach organizations, sales leaders, marketing leaders, how to connect on a very deep level with their audience to win trust. So that might mean with your team or that might mean with the prospect, but we have a beautiful system of communication that we teach. The problem with most communication systems, if you look at like most sales trainings, it's all about Sandler Sales, for example. That's a classic one that a lot of people have heard of over the course of time. Well, tell me what leadership team is using Sandler Sales in their leadership meetings? Answer, zero. It doesn't exist because it's a sales system of communication. So we have a system that is used across all team members that sales uses to be world class at connecting with the prospect. Leaders, managers use to connect with the team. And oh, by the way, you get to take it home and connect with your family as well. So that's what makes it beautiful. That's powerful. And that's Question First Group.
- [117:20]
Aaron Witz
Yeah, we, our team went through your training beginning of this year and they still. It's dramatically different. I mean, dramatic. And I was upset that I wasn't able to sit through it because. Because I thought it was sales training and was like, well, this doesn't. And I was, you know, in between trips, this and that, and I'm not going to prioritize this. And then I sat in on a little bit and Randy was like, thank goodness I sat in on it because this was. This was most helpful at home. This was. This was just leadership training and the most effective leadership training I've been in. So I'm a little bummed out I missed it.
- [117:51]
Marcus Sheridan
But great communication is great communication. It doesn't change. The problem is if somebody really understands great sales communication but doesn't carry that over to the rest of their life, well, what have they really accomplished? Okay, they close a few deals, but if they're not making their spouse happy, if they're not really connecting with their kids, I don't feel like they're reaching their potential as a human. And so this is the most important thing that I've ever really written about, talked about, taught. And I've got a book coming out on it probably next year. We've got some mini books that are available now, so you can check them out@question first. Group.com. super is. Is for those that are listening to this. But yeah, it's exciting. It's exciting. I believe in this. I believe in the industry. Aaron, it's really great to chat with you, man. And hopefully something we've said today resonates, you know, with your audience.
- [118:47]
Aaron Witz
That's the hope.
- [118:48]
Marcus Sheridan
That's always the hope.
- [118:49]
Aaron Witz
I enjoyed it, if nothing else. So thanks for coming.
- [118:52]
Marcus Sheridan
Thank you, bud.