B (2:29)

Oh, yeah.

A (2:29)

Before mining.

B (2:30)

Oh, yeah.

A (2:30)

That was not mining.

B (2:32)

Yeah. Yeah. I chased a non for profit space and we helped a lot of people. We help people get off meth and we. I've sat this close to people were in federal prison who were domestic terrorists who are now are Trying to adapt to life and who sold guns and now they, you know, want to live a normal life and, and was on a suicide prevention in prisons. So our local jail, if someone was going to kill themselves in the jail, they would, honest to God. They would chain them to a table in a room about, you know, a 4x4 room. And then I'd sit in and on the other side of that concrete table and we'd sit there and hang out for a couple hours. Give them hope and help them understand this isn't the bottom. Yeah.

A (3:15)

Where do you even start with somebody that you know, wants to go like in their life.

B (3:21)

During that time I created something I call verbal counter striking. So the idea of counter striking is in fighting. I'm going to let you do a lot of the work and I'm going to play to my strengths and try to knock you out. I'm going to let you fail and I'm going to let you build in confidence and I'm going to walk backwards and knock you out. And so the idea of that is asking a lot of questions. And what I liken unto is the Chris Voss stuff. Do you know Chris Voss? Black Swan. Holy cow, that guy.

A (3:48)

Yeah, you get, you get Randy started that. Randy's Mr. Oh, I love Chris. What's his latest book? What's the title? It's something about like his. It's all approach, but anyway.

B (3:58)

Yeah, so you're asking.

A (3:59)

Never split the difference.

B (4:00)

Never split the difference. So. So everything is a negotiation to him and for me everything is a fact finding mission. So all I'm doing is trolling you for trends and commonalities. We're talking about golf, we're talking about everything. But. And I'm just like, hey, what are you into? And I'll start there. And I put it in their. That's what I do with my clients all the time. Yeah, you know, it's nice to have an agenda, but sometimes people just need to talk and they need to sort through things and let go of stuff because a lot of presidents of companies are holding so white knuckle to the system in front of them, they can't see it. So what we bring is that relief system. So at Bowman legacy is what we do. Same thing I did in that prison room is to just ask questions and to probe and to listen and get them comfortable and calm them down and then let them know, you know, our logos, the sword and the shield. And we always say, hey, we're linking shields here I've got my sword and shield. Over you. Nothing's going to hurt you while you're in this room. Nothing leaves this room. And we're going to figure this out together. And that alone, just. It just calms people down. There's a way of speaking, too, in the. In your cadence, because I'm looking for if especially over the phone. I like to have most of my calls over the phone because I'm listening for cadence and tonality. Cadence and tonality is really important for the human being, because if we're excited, we kind of pick up our voice like this, and all of a sudden, we start to kind of hurry up a little bit. Well, that. That says something to me. And so listening, I think, as a leader is one of the most key things that you can do in those moments. So it's the same. We feel like we have to be this different person all the time, but it's the same. You're the same person. Whether you're at home or anywhere else, you can function as the same person. And so what I did for that guy in the prison cell, I do for a CEO, I'll do for my daughter. I'll do it for my wife.

A (5:44)

Yeah.

B (5:44)

And now she does it for me.

A (5:46)

Yeah. Yeah. Careful.

B (5:47)

Yeah.

A (5:47)

She'll use. Yeah on you.

B (5:48)

She does, though. She absolutely does. I caught my daughter when she was, I think, 16, Allison, and all of a sudden, she's like. She's starting to ask questions, and her voice gets real calm, and she starts to. I'm like. She's doing it back to me. And so. Yeah, but that's awesome because it trains you for life, it steadies you, and it causes you to listen. The more you listen, the more you learn.

A (6:16)

Yeah, it's. I mean, that's why I love the podcasting as well. It's so much fun to have no agenda, and it makes people nervous. It does operate on an agenda. Like, their whole life, their whole career is on an agenda.

B (6:28)

Yeah.

A (6:28)

And, like, so what are we gonna talk about? I don't know. Like, that's how conversation works. You just talk to somebody and you ask them questions.

B (6:36)

Yeah.

A (6:36)

And you respond and you ask more questions, and you go down different routes, like. But it's. It's fun to have a space like this. Like, no phones, no agenda, no place to be. We can just go wherever we want to go. But it's freeing, really.

B (6:51)

That's life.

A (6:52)

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It should.

B (6:54)

At least, I think that, yes, you need to be intentional. You know, what is it they. All this saying is lucky is when Preparation and opportunity meet. And I truly believe that. I think that, you know, training your mind and growing as a human being is one of the things I think that kind of sets Bowman legacies aside because that's where we're always working on the whole person. So it's not just the business, it's how are you functioning at home, how are you functioning in your own head? And building leaders in such a way that they're so, they become so well rounded and calm in the clutch. But I think that in a lot of my calls you can hear frustration on people's voices in such a way that you're like, okay, I'm going to set my agenda aside and I always have one. I feel like I owe it to my client. Sure. I always have. I owe it to the client to teach them something that day and give them. But man, I'm going to say 90% of the time that agenda gets put off to the side and we end up dealing with something else.

A (7:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. But that, that's why I love questions. Something I've thought a lot about is a lot of people ask me like, do I struggle with the blue collar people? Because like if you look at me, I'm not really a blue collar person. You know, I don't have a beard like you. I'm not, I'm not a big tough guy. Yeah. I don't have any tattoos. I grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona. Like I'm this, I'm five, six. Like I'm this, this little white kid from, you know, from a upper class upbringing.

B (8:24)

Yeah, yeah.

A (8:24)

What am I doing on a mine site? What am I doing? A steel mill, whatever. But all I do is just ask people questions.

B (8:29)

Yeah.

A (8:31)

And it just like that just disarms people. Like if you express even a little bit of interest in somebody, they're not expecting it. And then within five minutes there's a connection. Like I've never even thought about it because it's just, I just ask people questions when you. And in a genuine sense, like, I genuinely, I'm not doing it to try to like get somewhere. No, I'm just like, how can I connect with this individual as quick as possible. Kids are a very safe bet. What they do outside of work is a very safe bet. If you, if you like really low hanging fruit. If they're working on something, what are you working on? Like that's an easy one. And you just start going down this path and immediately you establish this human connection. And it's incredible. Like Dang I maybe. Maybe this time last year, I was in a different country, and I'm talking to this guy. I forget what it was, but it was like within 10 minutes, I started talking to him about how his wife just died, like, three months ago. And I wasn't expecting it at all. It was like, you know, tough, tough, older guy. I think it was an older gentleman in a workshop was just talking to him about what he's doing. One, two, six. There I am. And I'm. And in the moment, like, I'm not expecting to be there, but then you also. Okay, I just have to. He wants to talk right now. Yeah. I just need to let him talk.

B (9:49)

Yeah.

A (9:50)

And even I've learned, too, there's people, when they go off on this tangent that's uncomfortable. You like to either try to make them feel better or try to back away. And I've started to lean more into just asking very obvious questions about it that are kind of awkward, that I don't think most people will think. But when they're open to it, I feel like it's actually very helpful for them to just talk through it in a very real way without the nonsense of, like, a traditional social interaction, if that makes sense.

B (10:22)

It does. When I was a pastor, my mentor, Perry Sanders, and every time I speak or anything, I always try to mention this man's name because he has zero social media or anything like that. But he changed the very course of my life by mentoring me intentionally. And he's taught me so much about leading. And two things that he gave me that really is powerful is he said, michael. He said, because we raised horses growing up, and he knew that. And he said, michael, if you grab a horse by the bridle or the halter and you jerk on him as hard as you can, what happens? Like, man, you get 1500 pounds of equine fury on you right now, depending on the horse. He said, yeah, but if I grab that horse and I just slowly am gentle and I draw them to me, they're more likely to come. And I said, yeah, that's true. And he said, people are the same way. And I think that we've just got so much brash and spectacle in the world today that everybody feels like they have to be brash or they have to. Like you just said, you know, I'm not some big hairy guy. But we feel like we have to present that we're tough or present that we're somehow valid. But when you just are, it's disarming. And when you are Just being. And you're comfortable in that. To some people, it's intimidating, which is weird to me. But most people, they're like, oh, this guy's not here to tell me how I'm doing everything wrong. He's not a know it all, and that's why people talk to you. The other thing that he said to me was we. I did a lot of hospital visits when a spouse is dying. So you're sitting there holding one person's hand while they're slipping away, and the spouse is sitting across from you and you're comforting. Well, the first time I did that, Aaron, I was so nervous. I was so scared. I'm like, because I want to help. And I'm like, what do I do?

A (12:04)

What do you say?

B (12:04)

What do you say? I'm like, there's zero I can do. And I remember this one gentleman, he did eight tours in Vietnam and he's dying. He had ptsd. He was bipolar. But if you knew him, he was the sweetest man on the face of the planet. And I'm holding his hand and I'm looking across at his wife and I just. Perry's words, he said, michael, just be. The fact that you're there and you're genuine means everything. There are no golden words to say. Just feel comfortable. And what I've realized in my coaching is that a lot of the times, whether it's president of an organization or it's a foreman or superintendent, I let silence also be my guide.

A (12:50)

Yeah, I've. I've spent a lot of time over the past few years on speaking and trying to become a better speaker.

B (12:57)

And it's a.

A (12:59)

It is the weirdest skill set I have tried to figure out. It's. It is really complex, but that's one of the things, like, I get. I get too excited and I go a little too fast. So I've tried to just. I want that there. It's there for a reason.

B (13:18)

Yeah.

A (13:18)

But I want my cadence, like, just slow it down just a little bit. Yeah, just go there. And then one step back is where I want to be. And then two, just create some room. Because if it's 60 minutes of just non stop letting her rip, which I do it, it's just not as effective as saying something and then just giving it a moment to sit for someone to consider and then going somewhere else. Like, silence is such a weapon.

B (13:54)

The first time I did the lead from the middle conference, which we do three talks for that conference, and it's about. It's based upon our Book. And I remember I got through it so fast but I had practiced it but I forgot like stage presidents tell your adrenaline's pumping. So it was like. And now, now like I'll just, I slow down so much so that I'm like. It's 3am in the morning, my phone rings and there's a man on the other side of the phone with a gun in his hand. He's in California, I'm in Indiana. And I leave it there. I just leave it there and I just walk across the stage for a little bit. And I just encourage you during those times when you're trying to bring those points across to try to feel the crowd.

A (14:41)

Yeah.

B (14:42)

Because it is electric and you're in front of big groups. But that a lot of times, but

A (14:46)

that's another complexity is it's, it's very dependent upon the room, on the crowd, on the lighting, on the state. Like there when you can feel the crowd, it's really interesting because it's like I can like play to what's going on but then sometimes you've got some lights shining right at you. You can't see shit. Yeah, it's just, it's just black abyss out in front of you. Like I have no idea what's out there. And even that like the. Because you can't control where you're speaking, it makes it, it makes it quite difficult.

B (15:17)

Well that's when you let the past experiences that you've had to gain trust in yourself.

A (15:22)

Yes. Yeah, but that, but that, but to that point like the only way to, to gain that trust is by creating the experience in the first place.

B (15:31)

Yes.

A (15:31)

By just doing it.

B (15:32)

Yeah, yeah.

A (15:33)

And doing it wrong. Right. Times over.

B (15:35)

Oh, I thought I've bombed at times. I've been in front of huge groups and I've been in front of 1500 people and they all stand up in the end and I think. And I'm bombing the whole time because it's so quiet in there.

A (15:45)

Yeah.

B (15:46)

And you're like no one's interacting. But I was high up on a stage so it was hard and a lot of times I like to throw hats out or give giveaways and stuff like that. But yeah, I always love doing that. And kids are grown ups are like, kids are competitive so they know if they can get the treat they're going to, you know. But I couldn't do that at this event and I was so nervous because it was a high end event and holy cow, I mean we talked about it before I went. So I was In San Antonio and, you know, there's 1500 people in the room, and it's a lot of people.

A (16:17)

Yeah.

B (16:17)

And you're like, oh, my God, my hands. My hands have never sweat. My hands don't sweat. I don't get terribly nervous. And all of a sudden I'm like, what is wrong with my hands? But even sometimes you feel like you bombed. And I got a standing ovation afterwards. We couldn't get out of the airport. I couldn't get out of the bathroom, Aaron. People were just flooding me. And we were trying to get to our terminal. And, you know, San Antonio's airport is pretty small. It took us forever.

A (16:45)

What'd you talk about?

B (16:46)

Lead from the middle. Talked about mental health and suicide prevention and becoming the type of leader people run to in time of need. There's this new trend that I absolutely hate, and people are saying things like, be the leader. People want to follow.

A (17:01)

Yeah. Why do you hate that?

B (17:05)

I hate it because as leaders, we have to have hard conversations that people don't want to hear. You need to be the people that. Not only person that. Not only that, they want to follow. They need to follow.

A (17:17)

It's funny. I just read a chapter in Tim Grover's book last night. I'm rereading it. Relentless. And. And he said Michael Jordan told him after spending 15 years with him, that he jokingly. But he said, if I ever see you in my neighborhood again, I'm going to shoot you.

B (17:34)

But he drove him to greatness.

A (17:35)

Spent 15 years training him during championships.

B (17:38)

Yeah, right. And he saw his greatness and he pulled it out of him. And he challenged him beyond what he thought. I mean, and think about who we're talking about here. I mean, when he. When he played college ball, he was a great God, you know, and so when he got into the NBA, I mean, he was still a God, but this guy was the one who was going, I'm going to push this guy. This guy. Yeah, this guy beyond his limits.

A (18:01)

Yeah.

B (18:01)

That's powerful.

A (18:02)

There's a. Yeah, there's a bunch of. On the Internet. There's so much everywhere.

B (18:09)

It is everywhere.

A (18:10)

But, yeah, it makes it really glamorizes leadership. Makes it seem fun. It makes it seem like it's just the best thing in the world. And it. And it is, but in very different ways. Like, it's not really all that blissful.

B (18:26)

No.

A (18:27)

There's nothing more satisfying about it.

B (18:30)

Yeah.

A (18:30)

But it's not really a good time.

B (18:33)

It's not Disney.

A (18:34)

Yeah.

B (18:35)

Because Disney's not even Disney. Disney's fake. It's all mirage. No, it's real.

A (18:39)

And so when I say it's not a good time. Yeah. I doesn't mirror what people think a good time is, but I don't think that's a good time.

B (18:48)

Right.

A (18:49)

If that make. That's not a very good way of saying it. But we've been fooled into thinking like, this is happy, this is good. This is what you should want to achieve. But it's all nonsense. It's all television. It's all Hollywood. It's all stuff that doesn't really exist. It's not real.

B (19:09)

But. But what's different if you want to be a bodybuilder, guess what? That sucks.

A (19:14)

Yeah.

B (19:15)

And especially before show, you starve yourself to the point where you're almost dying. Your body fat content is so low. Have you seen those guys?

A (19:21)

Super healthy.

B (19:22)

When they're not on the stage, they're like, oh, God, just hit me in the head with a hammer. This has got to end. And so none of that's good. But if you want to strive for greatness, you have got to get a hold of the fact that you have it in you. But to get there, you got to be pushed. And that push is beyond your limits. And that's one of the things that we're constantly doing at legacies, is we're looking at people that we're leading at any given point in time. And we're going, okay, here's the map of the hard conversations. We have to go along the way. And being consultants, they don't have to do a damn thing that I say. So I have to palletize it in such a way. Bringing us back that horse analogy where I'm just bringing you along little bits by little bits. And also encouraging along the way because if I'm always pointing out what's wrong, I'm never pointing out what's right. And I found that out in leading in the minds. The only time these guys heard from upper management is when they were being beat down by something. No one ever talked about how well a shot went off, especially if it was a complicated shot. I've been a part of pre splits that were huge and very complex and very dangerous.

A (20:29)

You're talking blasting for people.

B (20:31)

Oh, sorry. Yeah, for blasting. And to see it go off and go perfectly. Nothing ever goes perfectly in mining. And to see that happen and you see you have a nice good face on the ledge and everything went out great. There's this well of pride, But I guarantee you, you're not going to hear anything about it. But if you screw something up, you are definitely going to hear about it. And what I found about being a leader, you have to engage with your people and you have to point out when they do something. Something. Right. Because what that does in the human mind, it triggers something in them to where they start to practice it now because they can be more intentional by being knowledgeable about something they did. Well, it is a reverse engineering of leadership. And that's one of the focuses we have at legacies, is because it's always focused on what you need to improve upon. Well, that's true. But if I'm telling you, Aaron, everything you're doing wrong and how I'm up at this high level and you're so lowly down there, so you need to do what I tell you.

A (21:31)

Yeah.

B (21:31)

It's always in this thing that you. One, you need me, and two, you're always going to need me. And three, you're never going to be as good as me. And that's how a lot of consultants present this. And I don't agree with that. What I want to get you to a place is where you don't need me anymore, where I can watch you doing things that challenges me. That's the goal that we have at legacies. You know, my trainer, Neil Dickinson, used to say, michael, we used to call it a double leg kick. It's called something else, but it's when you fake the leg kick and you go over the shoulder into the jaw. And I did it wrong. Every time he goes, you do that so wrong. You do it right. He goes, I never know where it's coming from. It's so goofy the way you do it. He said, I can't block it. Well, then as a kid, that made me go, I'm good at this. I'm good at this. It's weird. So I practice it so well that no one could block it after a while. It's the same way in leadership. If you. If you've got right now, I don't care where you are listening this, but if you're in a leadership position and you've got a guy or a gal that's excellent at something, intentionally point it out and tell them why. It's just that same concept. Never tell your kids you're proud of them without telling them why. Yeah, this is why I, even in my marriage, I try very hard to say I love you. And we say, I love you a lot. I think more than a lot of people do. But often I'm Trying to say I love you. And this is why. So it doesn't become trite and it becomes strategic and intentional. There's an old saying, life and death resting in the tongue. You can either speak life into somebody or death. And if you're the type of leader that you're managing in such a way as all you're doing is bringing up problems, you're beating people down. What I want to teach you in this moment and give you is called engaging with your employees. And engaged employees are empowered employees. And empowered employees innovate. And that's what keeps you valid in markets.

A (23:29)

I think this is what a lot of leaders struggle with though, is, is like, I'm in the position I'm in because I'm a hungry fucking dog.

B (23:38)

Like, yeah, no, no truer words are ever spoken.

A (23:41)

That's just, that's how I am. And I've, I've, I've. Part of it is what was put into me coming up. Part of it was the opportunity I have. Part of it is what I've built myself into over 10 plus years. And I drive myself harder than anybody else can drive me. That's just how it goes. And so I don't need really somebody alongside me driving me and supporting me in that way.

B (24:05)

Yeah.

A (24:05)

And then because I don't need that, I mistakenly assume that everybody else is like that. I think a lot of people get caught up in this, especially these high achievers. Like, well, I just. Everybody wants to get way better. Yeah. It's, that's not necessarily how it works. And that's not me saying I'm better. It's, it's just I'm, I'm programmed different. I'm especially, I'm an outlier. And a lot of people in these positions, they're outliers.

B (24:29)

Yeah.

A (24:30)

Which means they don't operate like most people.

B (24:34)

Right.

A (24:35)

And, and so you can't mistake, like, you can't assume everybody operates like you. You have to operate like everybody else in a way. And I think that's one of those principles I've had. I have to stop and do that all the time. I have to be like, I've got to recognize people, I've got to slow it down. I've got to say some good things and in a genuine way, like in a caring way, because I know that's an important part of leadership.

B (24:55)

Oh, they'll smell blood in the water if you're disingenuous.

A (24:57)

Yeah.

B (24:57)

They know when you're 100.

A (24:59)

But that's something I've had to work on because I'm always just, what's to the next thing, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And I'm going to be criticizing myself like, like again, I'm driving myself harder than somebody can drive me. So. But, but yeah, just acknowledging that people don't work like that is really, is, has been very helpful for me.

B (25:20)

I think that's where a lot of my clients that are those high functioning clients is usually business is good, but personal life, leadership, and this is where that whole person comes in to what we do isn't so good and the relationship with the employees isn't so good. And they're lost as to why. Because the numbers look good and everything's working out, the bills are getting paid, but they're not, they're personally not satisfied. And they know there's this disconnect. It's because like you said, they're an outlier and they're built a certain way. And it doesn't make that wrong. There's nothing wrong with that.

A (25:56)

Well, and even just the dynamic, like, I'll explain a different way. Like I'm the only person at this company in which the company is the most important thing in my life.

B (26:05)

Yeah, right, right, right.

A (26:07)

No one else here would say, build what's number one in their life. Yeah, that would be insane. I'd be really concerned if they said that, like, hey, hey, what's going on here? And so again, like even that dynamic, saying I'm the exact same, otherwise that dynamic is way different. And so I can't operate the way I operate with everybody else because it's just for them. Like this is, I hope it's more than a job, but it is a job at the end of the day.

B (26:36)

Yeah.

A (26:37)

It's a means to support their families, to live the life that they want to live. And I'm under no assumption that it's something, it's something more than that. Like, I hope it is more than that. But I think there's a lot of employers, especially that think that they deserve that everybody else needs to be as committed as them. And it's like, that's insane. That's not how it works. It doesn't math.

B (26:59)

Anita told me one time I was frustrated and mad about this very thing. You know, the team is not rising up to the level I'm working at. I'm giving it everything I have. And it's all about, you know, my name's on this and this matters so much and I'm just so in the weeds of all that. And she says, michael, you're holding everyone to the standard you live by, and that's not okay. And then I realized, oh, I can bring them close to that, but it's not going to be by beating them down. And that gives me great joy to see you say, that's ridiculous. You know, there's no way they should feel this way. But like you said, there are a lot of leaders that don't get it. They're like, how can they not provide or do the same as I can? Why can't they push like I do? Why they can't they. It's just because they're wired different, and

A (27:47)

they're making $750,000 a year while their people are making 93,000. They're the same standard. It's like, what?

B (27:57)

Your vacations look a lot different, bro.

A (28:00)

Even. Yeah, even that's like, come on, man.

B (28:03)

Right, Right.

A (28:03)

Yeah. And I, I, I. And I'm glad we're talking about all this, and I'm glad you're doing what you're doing because, like, I feel like we've been dedicated to the same challenge for a very long time now. And. And as I've spent more time, I've started to learn more about everything, and I've gotten more and more. Not frustrated, just impatient with the industry because I started at 18. I'm 31. I look young. I am young. But I've been here 13 years, which isn't nothing. That's like a decent sample size at this point. And it's the same tired, bullshit conversation today that it was when I was 18 years old. Oh, everybody sucks. Poor me. These kids suck. Even though we're the ones that parented them. But we're not going to talk about that. Everybody's going. Even though my kids went to college, like, it's just, oh, man. Like, everybody's out to get us. And, oh, I'm just. This is. This is the worst.

B (29:05)

Right?

A (29:05)

Let's go drink at the bar together and cry into each other's shoulders over it. And I'm just to the point where it's like, all of that can be right. I don't have any say over how many people go to school, go to college.

B (29:21)

Right.

A (29:21)

I don't have any say over how the generation. This generation was raised. I don't control any of that. Like, what if it's us? Like, what if it's me? What if it's the guy looking back in the mirror? Like, what if I'm the problem? Yeah. And Even if there's other problems out there, I can only control me. I don't control anything else. No, I don't control anybody else.

B (29:44)

No.

A (29:44)

I just control me. So it's like, why don't we just be better? I don't know.

B (29:51)

My grandmother lived right next door to me growing up out in the middle of nowhere, and she would always sit on this porch swing and rock back and forth, talk to herself. I don't know if she's talking to Jesus or my grandpa or what, but. So as a kid, I loved my grandson. I'd run down there and talk to her. And I remember being upset one time because my dad talked about my generation. And we were. We were separatists, were disrespectful, we're sarcastic, but we're also hardworking and. And dedicated in a lot of ways, too. But. So I sat there with my grandma and I told her what dad had said about our generation, and she said, oh, Michael, your generation. What about his? Yeah, now, see, that said so much because I'm guarantee you, my grandpa bitched about their generation, too. And Anita gifted me with a book from 19. I think the first publication from it is 1931, and it's how to Lead and Recruit. 1931, bro. 1931. I read the book, and it has the same problems that we have today. So the problem you're talking about is a human one. And what we have to do is transcend our minds to a whole new level. We have to equate to what do we want now? We have to say, I'm willing to do anything legal within and right to do it. So that means that there's another generation there and they speak a different language. How do I learn it? How do I learn it? It isn't no longer as a true leader. As a true leader who wants to transcend a whole new levels, you've got to stop wrapping your brain about what you think you know. Be quiet enough to learn what someone else knows.

A (31:26)

Well, and that, that the more you know, the bigger the liability is. Like, you start to build this wall around you.

B (31:36)

Yeah.

A (31:36)

As an individual. And I mean, just look at these big companies. Like, they can't get out of their way because they know everything. It's like, bro, the world has changed, and you don't even. You guys, you haven't even been outside.

B (31:49)

Yeah.

A (31:50)

Like, go walk. Go for a walk. Like, go look outside. It's a different world, and it's a human problem. But then there's also the reality that is the World is moving so much faster with every generation.

B (32:04)

Yes.

A (32:04)

And so everything is more and more and more compressed like.

B (32:10)

And convoluted.

A (32:11)

And convoluted. Yes. And more connected. And, and so to, to think even, even me now, it's like my sister, she's five, six years younger than me, she's in a different world. Like to think that we're. Well, it's just a few years, it's a whole different ball game. And then she's in her mid-20s, somebody 18, 20 right now, that's a whole different ball game. Like 16, that's a different ball game. And I think like that's one of the core problems with construction is you have all these typically old white guys that are like, what would we want to see? Not what does this next generation that we're trying to recruit, what's important to them? Like they're all approaching it from their perspective. Yeah. And that's what just cracks me up. It's like you're not the target audience. Are we trying to recruit 50 year olds right now? 58 year olds? No, we're not trying to recruit you. We're trying to recruit your kids. Kids. Like we need to be at their level. We need to be focused wholly on them. You're so caught up in you that you can't see past, see past the bushes, see past the trees.

B (33:20)

I think there's a lot of balance in that too because I think that the people who do understand this concept. My generation always made fun of the youth pastor who was 40 years old but dressed like the kids and tried to, you know, talk their slang. And everyone thought he was like, this guy's a pedo. And so well, well, we won't go there. But, but. And I think that the trades kind of comes across that way too. And we're trying to make things look sexy or when we're, we're connecting with younger generations that we're not. We're doing it so disingenuously and I'm going to tell you a language that I learned a long time ago that everyone speaks and that's love. And that's one of the elements that we don't have. It's self respect, it's respect for one another, it's love for myself and understanding that when I love me, which I used to think was such frou frou fluff, when I love me, I make better decisions for me. When I respect me, I can surely respect you right where you're at. And then all of a sudden there becomes this Absolute symbiote relationship that you have with those that you lead, that you have more grace for them and understanding. Instead of sitting there telling them all the things they're not, you're helping them work with what they've got.

A (34:31)

Yeah, yeah.

B (34:33)

You know, it's like the Bad News Bears. I don't know if you ever remember that there's a new one out, but when I was a kid, there was this movie about these very broken kids, like 13. One's a chain smoker, you know, the other one rides a motorcycle, you know, now they're vaping. Yeah, yeah, now they're vaping. Right. And they suck. They were terrible. And this coach comes in, he's. He has to be there. I think it's court ordered that he has to do some kind of, you know, non for profit work to help these people. And he works with them and plays to their strengths. And I really believe any coach does that. And every one of you here that's in a leading position, you're a coach and you're trying to bring out the best in people. And that means meeting them where they're at. And that means getting outside of your own ego and your head. Stop trying to play the part of looking cool. Stop being what we call a whitewashed tomb. You look good on the outside, you're all polished and pretty, but on the inside there's nothing but death and decay.

A (35:29)

Well, but this, and this is, I think, one of the core challenges when it comes to mental health and construction right now, which is a hot topic.

B (35:37)

Absolutely.

A (35:38)

Talking about it, yet nothing's changed. I mean, a little bit has changed.

B (35:43)

Okay. I'm 51.

A (35:45)

Yes.

B (35:46)

So from my perspective, I'm talking starting out in the trades, I'm talking numerically.

A (35:52)

Yeah, we're still.

B (35:53)

Right.

A (35:54)

A lot of people are still dying by suicide.

B (35:56)

Oh, mining people. 2nd United States in the United States military.

A (35:59)

Yep, yep, yep, yep. And when you run the numbers, the US military is safer for your kids than the construction industry is. If you factor in the fatalities by suicide and by drug overdose. Yeah, it's crazy.

B (36:11)

And we're. Not to mention divorce rates. Well, broken homes, broken.

A (36:14)

Not even the alcoholism, the divorce rates, the financial ruin, all of that.

B (36:19)

Right.

A (36:19)

But even just mental health, one, I think it's a problem that we're addressing it as mental health. I think people are wildly unhealthy in this world physically. And if you're wildly physically unhealthy, it's. It's no wonder your mind is a mess. It's like it's a system. It works.

B (36:34)

Oh, the head goes where the body goes. The body goes where the head goes.

A (36:37)

Exactly it. But even with mental health, like, you'll have, you know, Mental health week, and you see a bunch of executives on LinkedIn, you know, Michael, we need to talk about this. It's okay to talk about it. We need to talk about it.

B (36:55)

It's okay not to be okay.

A (36:56)

I don't know what that means. Yeah, like, what does that even mean? But it's like, I'm gonna say everything but handle my shit. But if I handle my shit, then I can say, hey, I don't know what you're going through right now. Maybe you're struggling, maybe you're not. I've struggled, I'm struggling. I'm gonna be vulnerable. Right, here's some of the stuff I've gone through. Here's what's helped me. And so I don't know if that's helpful for you. Again, I can't be ever, like, perfectly in your shoes, but I've struggled. And if you need to work through something or if you want to explore some of this other stuff that's really helped me, let me know, like, that's a lot more helpful.

B (37:35)

It's not that hard.

A (37:36)

That's. That's going to them. It's. Yeah, well, it's not that hard, but it requires me to handle my shit.

B (37:42)

It does.

A (37:42)

And it's like, everybody's talking about it. I check the box, I can feel good, I can sleep well at night, but I'm gonna do everything but handle my shit. It's like, why don't you start with you? Like, what do you have going on? What are your problems? Like, that's a pretty good place to start. And that's the best way to be an example for those around you. That's. That's the best way to inspire anybody to work on them is by working on you. That's the. It's the only way I've seen.

B (38:07)

Actually, I was challenging a group of guys yesterday. I think we had 13 in the room, 13 or 14. And a fatality had happened on the site, wasn't theirs, but there was a fatality, and many of them had drove by the incident, saw the. Trying to resuscitate the guy, and unfortunately, he didn't make it. And so we were talking about, okay, what's your standard operational procedure? We're going to role play today and say, this is you. This was your fatality. What do we do next? What do we do next? What do we do next. And I kept asking them, and there's a lot of silence in that room, which, you know, operationally, that's pretty sad. But one of the last questions I asked is, all right, what's your plan? What's the sop? What's the standard operational procedure on taking care of your people who saw this? Now, second, lastly, what's your standard operational procedure on how you're taking care of you because you saw this? You saw this. People listening to this right now are predominantly, I'm assuming, in the trade somewhere. And the amount of listeners right now, someone's going, yeah, yeah, There's a bunch of people that have saw someone die or know someone who died or worked for a place where they had had a fatality. And what kills me is the last thing we think about is how are we taking care of the staff and how are we taking care of ourselves in these situations? In other words, we're not taking care of our own shit. It's the last thing we think of. The first thing we think of is the law first. Second thing we think about is cleaning up the mess. Third thing that we think about is, let's get production back online. Yeah, but we're not thinking about how do we take care of ourselves. Now, that's an extreme version of that, but that's the commonality that we see across the board, is we have people again. And this goes full circle, equating profit to success. They look great. They have the nice cars, they have the nice things. They're successful. They look good online, but inside, they're not taking care of their own shit. And they're wondering why their back channels are on fire. They're wondering why people, recruiters right now are making a ton of money because people are leaving companies like, why can't I keep people? Why can't I keep people? Because you're not feeding them with hope. You're not pointing out the things that they're doing well. You're not providing the type of environment where they actually feel safe. Yes, you had Trench Safety Week. Yes, you had. Or, you know, whatever it is that you had. And, boy, you politicked and you went and traveled with the group and you went shook hands to people you don't even know.

A (40:48)

You got a safety award, y'.

B (40:50)

All. You got a safety award. Pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Does that one go in the break room of your office? That's probably the biggest decision you're gonna make today. Everybody can see it. You've checked all the boxes. But really, are you Soul seeking. Are you really growing you and handling you? Because when you can do that, you can help others do it. I'm not expecting anyone to be a therapist, but I've literally been shunned by certain leaders because they have told me, I don't. I know where you're wanting to take me, and I'm not ready.

A (41:29)

But that.

B (41:30)

Or I don't want to go, but that.

A (41:32)

That. You have to appreciate that, though. That's significant awareness. That's a lot of awareness. Then fuck you. Yeah, right. Like, and you probably get some of that, too. Like, I just. Yeah, I don't want anything to do with you. Like, yeah, like that. And just. Just like. But. But. But to. To acknowledge. Like, I see where this is going. I'm not. I can't do that. Like, I honestly respect that a lot.

B (41:54)

Oh, yeah, I do. We had another guy tell me, hey, Mike, here's the deal. I appreciate what you guys do. Love your reputation. Love, love the whole thing. But what I'm really asking you to do is, is could you just make me look good? Mm. And the. The question hit me so strangely. I was like, what. What does that mean? Because I don't. Like, I'm not. I understand what your online presence needs to look like, and I understand a lot of the intricacies behind that and what your video should have and shouldn't have. I understand all that. When I said, but what do you. Can you say that more plainly? And he says, well, I don't actually want to be good. I just want to live my life and do what I want to do. But if you can make me look good, then that will make my clients really draw to me. In other words, I want it to look like I have a good culture.

A (42:41)

See, I have zero respect for me that. But there's a lot.

B (42:43)

And I didn't work for him, but

A (42:44)

there's a lot of that because we need people. So let's just put some lipstick on this pig. Come on down. Let's go. Here's a $5,000 signing bonus. We suck, but $5,000. Come on. Come on over here.

B (42:56)

That's what sucks about. You know, that kills me, too, because then your back channels are on fire. You're constantly in that recruiting stage, that hunting stage. You're not keeping anybody. That's got to hurt your bottom line at some point.

A (43:09)

You'd think so. I mean, I've talked to companies. They're running, like, sometimes 30, 40, 50% turnover. It's like, I would have been out of business five years ago, if I was running 5% turnover, I worked for

B (43:21)

a company where it was worse. And I went to the HR and I asked them, hey, how much are you spending just on plane tickets on getting people there and getting people back? It was over $80,000 a quarter. This was plane tickets. We're not talking about anything else. Onboarding, training, the time it takes to onboard. Companies don't look at that stuff.

A (43:44)

Yeah.

B (43:45)

All they're trying to do is get butts in the seats. They're not recognizing that, hey, if I could just give these people something to aim for, if I could actually train these people and create something greater, I'm building a legacy company.

A (43:58)

But that. But. But this is my favorite thing about this is it's like I've seen now over the past five years, especially a lot of really great leaders in the industry.

B (44:09)

Yes.

A (44:09)

Look themselves in the mirror and be like, there's a better way to do this.

B (44:15)

Yeah.

A (44:15)

And it starts with me.

B (44:17)

Yeah.

A (44:18)

And you watch them go down this path, and now a few years have elapsed, and they're the first ones that benefit.

B (44:26)

Right.

A (44:27)

It's like, wait a minute. This is just better. We're having more fun. We're less stressed. We're making more money. Our people are making more money. We're able to do more for our people. We're doing better work. Like, this is better.

B (44:42)

Yeah.

A (44:42)

And it's like, yeah, yeah, it's better. Like, why don't we do more of this?

B (44:48)

Every. And we have the data to prove every company that we have worked for thus far, every employee has moved up in responsibility or they've. If it's a individual just working with me for themselves, they've gotten a better job. They've leveled up. They've 10x'd without one. Not one bad review in six years. And every company, without question, all their guys start to speak that same language and march the same direction. And ego doesn't die. Ego is important. We need it. Anyone that tells you to kill ego has no understanding of what ego is about and what is for.

A (45:30)

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

B (45:32)

Yeah, you got to have it.

A (45:33)

They were the ones raised with participation trophies.

B (45:36)

Yes. 100. There's a book out there says, kill your ego, and that's garbage. But there is balance too, right? There's an understanding of balance. And once we get that in check and we start to move forward together and put in and put the team first, they prosper. Prosperity comes. Progress comes. You want to talk about production? Production raises 100% of the time. 100%.

A (46:02)

Yeah.

B (46:03)

You can't. You can't skew that data. There's no skew 100%. Someone profits. And then you look at guys who are very thought provoking in. In. In our realm, like Herb.

A (46:15)

Herb's a great example.

B (46:17)

Herb's a great example. I love. I'm gonna get choked up talking about her because I.

A (46:22)

He's coming out in, I think, next month. Yeah. I'm excited to see him.

B (46:28)

I love Herb, and Herb and I are pals. And to see the bravery and witness it firsthand of that man looking in the mirror and saying, show me the dark spots. And so aggressively chase his dragons. I have never seen anything like it in my life. And look where he's at.

A (46:49)

Well, and, like, to his credit, too, he did a lot of this later in life, which is hard, man, to live a whole life one way, and then to be like, wait a minute, there's a better way to do this, to just dig through everything later in life. Holy shit. I have nothing but respect for that, because I've watched a parent do the same thing, like, struggle with something their entire lives later in life, finally be like, all right, we've. We've got to figure this out. Because once you get to later and you're actually like, let's just ride this thing out, man. Right. Mail it in. I mean, I made it this far. Let's just. Let's just chill. And Herb, he's a great example, too, of, like, he doesn't have to do any of the shit.

B (47:35)

No.

A (47:35)

He should just be hanging out on the beach in Florida.

B (47:37)

Totally.

A (47:38)

Just living large, man.

B (47:39)

Playing baseball.

A (47:40)

Just buying into the boomer retirement dream that everybody always done. It's a lie, but everybody was sold it. Like, let's just go hit the beach. Let's not. Why is he working right now? Right. He's doing more than ever right now more than ever.

B (47:55)

And, like, yeah, he's in that position where he can completely walk away and he's done. And yet he still wants to give back more. And because of it, he's prospering even more.

A (48:06)

Yeah.

B (48:06)

It's the insane thing that we feel like we got to get ours. We feel like there's this primal thing that comes over us in business, is like, I have to do better than my competition. At legacies. We work at the whole person, and we do it in such a way that no one can do what we do. But anyone that would consider them my competition. I can't do what they do. Yeah.

A (48:28)

Because. But I can't be I can't be more Michael than Michael. Right, right. Like that's the secret. Yeah, that's what I've doubled down on. Like, wait a minute, I just have to do me the best.

B (48:38)

Yes.

A (48:39)

If I'm doing me the best, no one else can do that. And that's like the ultimate competitive cheat code.

B (48:45)

Yeah.

A (48:45)

Like, you know, like it is one talk competition. Like just, just do you better. Better than anybody. Right. Bingo.

B (48:51)

You get so inside of your head of what's this other person? Oh, they got this client. I don't have that client now. Or they took that client from you or I always wanted to work with them. What better than me? And when I first started, I. Excuse me. I kind of got caught up in that just a little bit. And then I realized, hey, look, when I looked at their catalog of work, looked at their focus, I'm like, I'm not focused on any of these things that they're focusing on. My focus is completely different. My direction, my approach. And I'm going to be for some people and I'm not going to be for others. And that's fine because this guy's killing it over here with this client and they love him. So why am I obsessed about that? How about working on me, looking at those dark areas within me, improving on me and things on how I speak in front of people, how I present myself, how I present the business, how I'm trying. I can't stand being salesy. It's disingenuine. I hate being online, Aaron. I hate the whole thing. I'm sick of the sound of my own voice. But at the same time, I know there needs to be that advertising and putting yourself out there and showing what you do to some degree.

A (49:51)

Yeah, I would say it, it scales the impact you can go create.

B (49:55)

You're right. And so especially when you're trying to go to that one to many stage, you know, in your organization. So. And that's where we're at. So I just had to focus on making things better for me. And I think another thing that's important is under promising and over delivering. We see this a lot, especially in the trades. And I remember sitting with the president one time telling about all the things we were capable of doing to a prospective client. And three quarters of it we had never done. We didn't have the equipment for and we didn't have the capabilities. And I understand what he was trying to do. He's trying to put himself out there, you know what I mean? And go at. But dude, we Were not prepared for that at all. At all. And it hurt us.

A (50:48)

Well, and it's a. It's a dichotomy, too. Like, that. That's a tough thing about growing a company or doing stuff you haven't done before is there is, like, you. You're not always prepared.

B (50:58)

Right.

A (50:59)

So you are having to push sometimes. But if that's the constant state, you'll just kill everybody along the way.

B (51:05)

Which.

A (51:06)

Which we. We've done plenty of in the past. Going back to Herb, though, like, I have a lot of respect for him because he's at this point where he's learned all this stuff, and he's benefited greatly as a result. He's done very well, and now he's in, like, a I want to give it all back phase.

B (51:22)

Yeah.

A (51:22)

Which is, like, that's what I thought the whole purpose of the life thing was, was, like, you find what's for you. You double down on it. You benefit from that, and then you take that benefit that you've enjoyed and you give it to everybody, and then you die.

B (51:40)

Like, that sure would be nice if everyone thought that.

A (51:42)

It makes. I mean. I mean, it's pretty. It makes a lot of sense to me.

B (51:45)

I agree.

A (51:46)

And. And it's not like a criticism. It's more so I say it out of sadness. There's so many people that have been around this industry for a very long time that have benefited from it in huge ways. A lot of people selling companies right now.

B (52:01)

Oh, yeah.

A (52:02)

And then they just vanish, and it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. We need some of that. Like, can. Can you give us just a go do whatever you want to do, but, like, can we have some of that? Can you give it. Give. Give some of it to us? Because we need it. Like, we need what you have to get ahead. Like, can you. Can you reinvest in this world that created what you have? Like, give it. Give a little bit back to us? And that it's been. It's been a huge bummer to see that more and more and more and more over the past few years is guys just pulling the. Pulling the chute. I'm out, man. And I can't blame them, because this is a tough world.

B (52:44)

Oh, it is.

A (52:44)

And, I mean, I can only imagine spending 30, 40 years just grinding and finally getting paid and being like, dude, I'm out of here. This thing almost killed me. I'm gonna get out. Like, so I don't even blame them. But it's also really disappointing in a lot of ways to See, just a few people giving back right now in big ways. Like another guy I really, I really respect is John Moyna. He had this unbelievable hundredth year Caterpillar event. I've talked about it, it was unbelievable. And he, and it pisses me off because he even tried to get Caterpillar to be a part of it. But he put up all his own money as all his machines at his facility. They charged people like a little bit to like pay for the food and shit there. But otherwise like huge investment. Shut the whole company down for a week to make this thing happen. Multiple companies. Unbelievable. Invited Caterpillar. Caterpillar not only said, no, we're not interested, they coincidentally had their own event the same weekend. Very curious. But, but I just, the entire time I was there, I was just like, I. And there were thousands of people that came through. Lots of families, lots of kids, this and that. I'm like, I respect this so much because this is just giving back to the industry. Like celebrating why we're here. It's not to benefit the company. It wasn't an advertisement for them to sell more tractors or move more dirt. It was just like, this has been a great world for me. This is take care of care of me, my family and a lot of other families. Let's all just celebrate together.

B (54:19)

Yeah.

A (54:19)

It's like, but why is that a, why is that a one off thing? Like, why can't we do more of that?

B (54:25)

So I think that's very. A multiplicity question. And I think that a friend of mine, Jason Miller from Midwest Mole, who's

A (54:33)

another world class leader in this space. In the space.

B (54:37)

World class. World class. And I've seen him many times just burst out in tears over how much he loves his people. And that means from laborer on up, it doesn't, he doesn't have a distinction there when it comes to people. And when you're at a MOLE event, you feel it too. You feel it because there's an electricity there. There's a. Like we're molesting. There's one guy that's got a tattoo up there with local.

A (55:07)

Yes. That's the only time I've seen that.

B (55:09)

Yeah, right, right. Yes. I say that all like. And I point him. I pointed him out the first time I spoke over there. I'm like, where's this guy? I gotta find this guy, you know where?

A (55:17)

And he's like, yeah, it's the logo we designed back in the day too. Yeah, that's why I know it, because I saw that. I was like, wow, that's dedication.

B (55:26)

That's dedication. And he's still there to this day and working with those guys. They all have this understanding because it comes from the head and it leaks out is we're building a legacy company. And Aaron, something I tell teams, a lot of times when someone's pulling harder than other people, and you'll have this team of people that I'm working with, and they'll be like, you'll have three dynamic people who are deeply dedicated, who see the intentionality behind the things they do and understand the ripple effects behind their decisions. And they're so desperately trying to make their mark and build a legacy. I love those people. I love those people. We have great times together. And then there'll be 30 other people who are just there cashing it in. Do you know those three people are going to do so much more good than those 30? We still need the 30. And so in this situation, we got one guy that says, hey, look at all these things. And we just mentioned three people that are point. They're going to so far outweigh.

A (56:26)

Yes.

B (56:26)

The. And. And everyone's gonna look at these people and they're gonna cherish them, which is.

A (56:31)

And that's. That's. Now our entire model is like, let's just tell the stories of the best folks.

B (56:37)

Yeah.

A (56:38)

Let's just focus on the best folks that want to train and develop their people and work with them with our. With our training platform. Let's just focus on the best folks that want to become better leaders. Have them at our event. That's it. I don't need to go sell these other companies that don't get it. At this point, if they don't get it, they don't get it. That's fine. You just keep doing your thing. But I'm going to go all in on the people that do, because it's a way better way of doing things.

B (57:01)

It. It is. And people get drawn to it like moths to the flame. And those that matter, those that want that legacy, want to be a part of it. They're hungry to be a part of it, to leave something of themselves behind. You know, I say this all the time. DC has got a lot of. When you're in Washington, dc, there's a lot of statues of people. You got to read the plaque to know who they are, and they're all covered in bird shit.

A (57:20)

Yeah.

B (57:22)

I want to leave the kind of legacy that leaves a ripple behind that never ends, of positive good things that are centric. To love that centric to centered, to helping people to grow and giving back so people have a good tool to carry with them, and they're carrying less weight of sadness and disappointment and hurt in their lives, and they can move forward, more light in life. That's the legacy I want to leave behind. Guys like Herb, guys like Jason, guy, like the guy you're talking about, those people, people right there, they understand it and they see it, and some people have it and some people don't. So. Oh, well, who's next?

A (57:58)

Yeah, well, and that's my evil plan here, is to go. To go. Well, to go make those companies better and better and better so that they just force the market to get better.

B (58:11)

That's our objective.

A (58:12)

The market right now is not good. It's not healthy. Like, even. Yeah, even. Even. There's a bunch of infrastructure leaders right now online. We need more money from Washington. The money's about to run out. It's like, you guys just spent $1.2 trillion over the past five years. The Marshall Plan was $200 million to rebuild Europe post World War II. The entire United States interstate system was $500 million, inflation adjusted. We just spent $1.2 billion. What did we get? Like, show me one thing that made people's lives better. Just one. And it's like, I travel a lot. I don't think I would argue life is worse than it was in 2019 in the United States in a lot of ways. A lot of ways. I think, what did we just get? Like, there's. The industry's not healthy, is my point. Like, we have to be better.

B (59:05)

And I think the way we make that better is knuckling down and doing what we have, doing the best with what we have. And where I get distracted is when the wind and waves of all those things around me get me down. So I double down on building that legacy with other people.

A (59:21)

Correct. I think that's the only way out of it. Like, I could get all down and be like, all right, I guess we have to go start lobbying the federal government. I don't. Yeah, I don't know how this is going to work out. Like, right. That is all just

B (59:36)

an endless mob hopelessness, dude.

A (59:38)

Hopeless.

B (59:39)

That's a dark place.

A (59:41)

Like, but what if we can help companies better train and develop their people, become better leaders, operate way more efficiently, build at way cheaper rates, but make more money as they do it, pay people more money, and then force the whole market to adjust as a result. Because now they're attracting the best people.

B (60:00)

You know, I go Back to Perry, when he led me in life. When I. When. When Perry first met me, I was a violent man. I had lost a job for beating up a manager. He struck me first, by the way, guys, I did just beat somebody up.

A (60:14)

And it was a different era.

B (60:16)

Yeah, he hit me unprovoked. I was going to lunch. He hit me. Okay. I'm not that much of a psycho. So I got fired. And I was just in a bad way in life. And I was very angry with life. And he. No one saw anything good in me. I was brash, I was loud. I was mean. I was aggressive. And he began with me and saying, michael, I see greatness in you. I see greatness in you. No one up to that point in my life had ever said that to me. At first, I thought he was trying to get a date with me.

A (60:56)

Yeah.

B (60:56)

Like, that's how corrupt my brain was. Like, this guy's not here to help me. He's trying to take something from me. But it wasn't true. Perry was just trying to help me. And he started with the most rudimental, soft thing. It's this, what we're talking about here. These concepts, they're not hard. We just have to dedicate ourselves to move in that direction and not placate to the culture of the whole hustle culture, the whole. You're a savage because of this, that, and the other. All this, that you're valid because you're making money. If we can just see that you're going to make the money, you're going to make more money than you ever thought possible. Because for Perry, I'd work harder. For Perry, I'd work longer for less. And still I worked with this guy for seven years, and I still miss working with him. And I still talk about him all the time. His legacy is in my book.

A (61:53)

Yeah.

B (61:55)

His legacy will live on long after he's dead. And he's not hurting for money. His kids don't hate him. His grandkids love him. He's still married. And he never pushed for money. He never pushed for greed. He never pushed to look good. He pushed Perry.

A (62:16)

Yeah. And to me, that, like, that's a lot cooler than a library, you know?

B (62:20)

Right.

A (62:20)

Yeah. People think, like, put your name on something. Yeah. Doing it. But that's. I think that's an important point, because most people, I've realized, have never really had somebody that's done that for them, that's believed in them.

B (62:31)

Yeah.

A (62:31)

Which is. And I've taken for granted that my entire life because I have had that. Like, I truly was raised to believe whatever you want to do, you can go do it. Like. And so it's just. It's. Honestly, it has been a little easier for me, a lot easier for me, because I just. I haven't had to struggle with that. I haven't had that. Well, it's. This isn't possible. That's not possible. It's like, no, no, if you want that, pick, whatever, just apply yourself. I mean, I wasn't. I'm not under the impression that I can just go get it. I'm entitled to it, but, like, I'm

B (63:03)

capable of it 100%.

A (63:05)

Most people, though, they've been suppressed so much along the way, they've never had somebody that's like, listen, you're. You can do more. And, like, you, like, I want to think that it was their parents or their past employer or somebody like that, but, like, the reality is it's probably. They've never. They've never had that along the way.

B (63:27)

Anyone who's listening, I want to tell you right now. I have. I have counseled people, like I said, who came out of federal prison. I have helped people get off meth. I've helped people get their kids back from the state. And every one of those people, though they were doing rotten things, had greatness within them, but they couldn't see it. You have greatness within you. You 100%. But it's up to you. Here's the problem. It's up to you to do something with it. It is up to you to enhance it and to grow it and to believe in you. And I don't care where you're at right now in your life. I don't care if you're in the lowest place. Whatever that dream is, wherever that vision is, you absolutely can have it. It's 110% obtainable. And it isn't about working harder. It's about believing in you. Stop being afraid of failure, stop equating shame to failure, and keep moving forward. Work on you. It's obtainable, whatever that thing is. And I've learned that with every new place that I've went to in my careers in life. Everyone told me I didn't belong there. I heard so many people tell me I didn't belong there. When I came into this space, I had an individual troll. Every post that I had, I'm sure

A (64:36)

they were top class.

B (64:37)

Oh, yes, they're probably doing some big shit. I'm not. I don't know.

A (64:43)

Because exactly, I didn't look, you don't even know.

B (64:45)

I don't even know.

A (64:46)

That's the point.

B (64:47)

I don't even know. But my. My point is I just focused on, okay, how can I make me better? And how can I make this happen? How can we make this happen? Because I know it's possible because other people are doing it. You could. There was a time in our history where we said we couldn't fly if God wanted us to fly. He'd given us wings, Aaron.

A (65:07)

Yeah.

B (65:07)

And then two brothers decide, bullshit.

A (65:11)

Well. And if you read about their story of failure, it's not like they just, yeah, well, this is the perfect airplane. And let her rip. And that was that. Like, the first airplanes were horrible. They didn't really fly even. No, it's like they skipped even. That story has been so romanticized.

B (65:29)

Right.

A (65:29)

For so long. But, yeah, when people. Something I've thought a lot about too, when new people come into the business is I almost look at it, like, I don't know if this is a good way, but it's actually served me quite well. It's like. Like, how were they abused in the past?

B (65:46)

Oh, yeah.

A (65:46)

Because I feel like so many people, through education, through family, through especially employment, I think employment is actually the biggest abuser of them all. Job companies, like, how were they abused?

B (65:59)

Yeah.

A (66:00)

And how can I get them away from that abuse? How can I let them work through it and get to this better place as quickly as possible? But sometimes with people, I've. I've seen the process take years, years to unwind. Some of these people, because they've just been so abused over their careers where. Wherever they've been and, And. And even building trust with people, like, I mean, shit, sometimes it takes a long time. Like, it's. It's. It, like the way I can kind of conceptualize in my head, it's like, it's kind of like a. Like a beat dog in a way.

B (66:34)

Ooh, I use that analogy a lot. Yeah.

A (66:35)

Like, they have their tail between their legs. They don't want anything to. They want nothing to do with nobody. And humans are better at faking it.

B (66:42)

Oh, man. Yeah.

A (66:44)

Yeah.

B (66:44)

So dog will tear you up.

A (66:45)

Dog, A dog. You know exactly how the dog's feeling, at least, so you can get there a little quicker. Humans, they'll act like, oh, we're chilling, man. Everything's good to go. But that's the trick is you've. You've got to get in there and unwind it and get to it. And me as a leader, it's like the faster I can help them get through that abuse and then get to a better place, the better off we all are. They're better off, we're better off.

B (67:13)

Well, and we're not expecting anyone to. And I said this yesterday, I said I'm not expecting. When we're talking about the fatality and hounding people. I said, look, you guys, not everybody's a therapist. Not everybody counseled at a non for profit for seven years. So I'm not saying you have to be someone's counselor. Right. So we're not saying that. But what I think the greatest thing about what you're talking about is just like with that dog, it takes consistency and consistency of care is key. Jason Miller right now is rolling his eyes because he's heard this a million times. For me, consistency of care is key because trust, people say, oh, you know, he Trust, trust. They say respect is earned. I, I dare say it's not. If you're a well rounded human being, the moment I meet you, I'm going to give you respect.

A (67:58)

Sure.

B (67:58)

I'm going to show you respect because I'm a consummate professional and I understand that's the gateway to you getting me to trust you. Trust is earned. And when you are that consistent type of leader or person in their lives, they know who they're coming to. They know who they can run to and who they can't. Yeah, that's why you're getting skipped in the chain of command all the time. What do they skip me? Because you're unapproachable. You're part of that abuse. They know that there's days that you might show up and be the guy who's just great, but you also might be the person who's in a bad mood and they don't know how to approach you. So you're inconsistent. But those leaders who understand that consistency of care is key, they're consummate professionals and they understand if I can put my ego aside and I can be consistent with these people, they know who we are. You and I have known each other for over. Well, for six years now. Yeah, Six years, I'd say. Yeah.

A (68:55)

Maybe. I think I met you in 19.

B (68:58)

Yes.

A (68:59)

Maybe even 18.

B (69:02)

Was it 18? Listen to it. Listen to me.

A (69:06)

I think it was 18, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (69:10)

So we've known each other for a while. We consistently know each other like there's a trust there. You know that by me coming on this podcast that I'm not going to talk about circus clowns. I'm not Going to just completely sit

A (69:25)

in town, by the way, down the street.

B (69:26)

That's bizarre.

A (69:28)

Yeah. I didn't know the circus was the thing still. I was like, that's a circus tent. Right.

B (69:32)

That's a legit circus tent.

A (69:34)

But that. But. But going. Going to the previous part of the conversation, too, is like, that's also the advantage of just being you is because it's a lot easier to be consistent when you're just you.

B (69:43)

Yes.

A (69:44)

Like, and I feel like. Like, I feel like that's why we built the trust we have is like, because I kind of know what I'm gonna get with you.

B (69:50)

Yes.

A (69:50)

Right. Because I know you're just doing your thing. Like, I know you're not trying to do something else. Like, and I think at least hopefully it's the same for me. And I feel like.

B (70:00)

Right.

A (70:00)

And I feel like that's where. That's why I occupy the position I do within the industry now is because, like, for years, everybody was looking at me like, all right, who's a shithead kid? Like, some of the stuff he's saying is right, but some, like, is this real? Like, what's going on here? And now I've done it since 2018 every day. And now after years and years and years and years and years and years of me doing the same shit and hopefully getting better along the way, I like to think I'm a little bit better at my delivery. I've learned some things, but, like, I'm still doing the same shit. Like, I'm not making it up.

B (70:32)

Right.

A (70:32)

This. It's not a.

B (70:33)

This is who you are. Yeah.

A (70:34)

I'm not. I'm not trying to get attention here. I'm not like, it's just. It's just me. This is just what I love. This is just what I'm doing, what I'm built to do, I suppose.

B (70:45)

You know, I just don't take an opportunity because you never know. I want to be intentional with you because I could walk out this door and croak, and I've literally had that kind of health issues where that could be within the realm of possibilities. I have consistently watched you grow. And what's amazing is you had to be young and brash when you first started to make the splash that you did. It, Aaron, it would not have worked any other way. It would not. And. And so you had your lovers and you had your haters. Right? But as you've been consistent and you keep growing. You know, two years ago, we were at the Dirt World conference, and when you Got up to speak. You so humbled yourself in front of every one of those people and broke down the things you did wrong. And you did it in such a way that you were like, hey, you know, this is where I was wrong. This is what I've learned along the way. This is where I've adapted. The humility by which you brought that shows how much you've grown. So for you to say, well, I hope I've grown, no, dude, you are not the same guy. You're the same guy, same package. You're still Aaron. You look the same age, which is insane to me.

A (71:55)

That's a problem. It's a gift.

B (71:58)

It's a gift, but I'm going to tell you to watch you grow and then to watch you adapt and reinvent along the way. From the outside, it's looked easy and I know it hasn't. I know you've tortured yourself. You've done the work. It's been hard. There's been rough days. But watching you do what you do and build what you do from where I am has been a really cool thing to watch and to be humbled. To sit in this room right now with you and you trust me in this moment and me wanting to serve in this moment is just absolute privilege. And I for one want to thank you because I'm 51 and I know what it's like coming up in the trades and I know what it's like to be boot collar most of my life. I know what it's like to work those 90 hour shifts and really honestly feel like that I'm just a number and no one gives a shit. They don't care about my family, they don't care about me. They don't care. I used to have a boss that would every Monday morning was, hey, Mike, how was your weekend? Well, okay. Here's the thing that we need to do.

A (73:04)

I've been that boss.

B (73:06)

He didn't give a shit about how my weekend was, how my kids were.

A (73:09)

He, you know, he.

B (73:11)

But he knew he needed an intro with, how's it going? And I would be like. And couldn't even get it out. But to watch you continue to adapt and then being willing to as a man look in the mirror and go, what's wrong with me? How am I not functioning correctly? How can I push myself and make myself better? Is an amazing thing. Not everybody has that. And I'm so proud of you. I want you to know I love you so much and I'm proud of what you're doing, you're trying to do when everything else tells you, just placate to the. Just, just, just get along. Just make money, look good, look brash. Yeah, just be brash. You can make more money that way. Be provocative. You can make more money that way. And that's not. You're trying to build a legacy. And that's a lonely road. But Ed Mylett says this all the time. I love that guy. And he says the lonely road's the one you need to travel. Get used to the lonely road. Get used to standing on your own when everyone else is saying, it's a lot easier over here.

A (74:13)

Yeah, I, I very much appreciate all that. Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's a. It's like it's been a really fucked up road.

B (74:21)

Yeah.

A (74:22)

But it, but it's, it's, it's, it's. It makes it a lot easier to know you're doing exactly what you should be doing.

B (74:31)

Yes.

A (74:32)

Like, and that is at least my hope for people is like, I got so lucky to just find the thing.

B (74:42)

Yeah.

A (74:42)

And then for whatever reason, have the perfect upbringing to marry with that thing and to have the perfect timing to find the thing not just in my life, but also just in the span of human history. And just like all of these things have lined right up. To be like, you're the fucking guy for this moment. Go at it. And it's. It hasn't made it easy, but it has made it easy. Like, like it's really easy for me to turn money down because it's like, that just doesn't get me going, man. And, and, and I've got caught up with other people sometimes this and that. But even people talk about, like, haters and this and that's like, I don't know, maybe people talk about me. I. I don't even know. Like, my heads are. My head's so in the clouds, I couldn't even tell you. I don't know. I don't pay attention to it. It just doesn't. Like, I don't, I don't really need to concern myself with it.

B (75:39)

You know, there's heads in the clouds because you're soaring above them.

A (75:43)

Yeah, but.

B (75:44)

And not above in some hierarchical sort of way. When we are so much in the weeds of talking about other people, we, we soar at such a lower level, but this is resonate as high.

A (75:56)

Like, I don't, I don't. I want to be really careful with giving myself too much credit here too, because this is where faith has actually been very Helpful for me over the past 15 months or so, as I've reconnected with it, it's like, it's been the realization that's like, oh, this isn't my. This isn't me. Like, I am. Like, I just need to. To just walk the path that's put out for me is how I have it in my head. But I'm not the one. It's not my strength. I'm not the one determining the path, if that makes sense.

B (76:30)

It does.

A (76:30)

I just need to keep on it. That's my job in this. And so that's how I view it. It's like, this isn't my thing.

B (76:38)

Doesn't belong to me.

A (76:38)

It doesn't belong to me. I'm not the one doing it. It's not my strength and courage and gumption. Like, no, I'm. I'm just for. I don't know why. I'm just the fucking guy that's supposed to do this one thing. So it's like, okay, yes, sir. I'll just do the one thing. And that's. That's how I genuinely feel about it. And once as I've gotten more. And that's not how it always was, but as I've gotten more connected with Faith over the past 15 months, like. And it's brought me so much peace because I was carrying everything myself up until this point. And it's like, wait a minute. I don't have to. Yeah, I'm not even supposed to know. This isn't even my thing. And it's just been like.

B (77:25)

We were just talking about this on the walk. We just got coffee, and we were just talking about this, and we're talking about our message. We're talking about business and Anita. And I'm like, you know what? We just need to walk out this path because we want it and because we understand who we are and what our job is on this world. We're going to be guided to those places we're supposed to be going. And this is going to happen for us as we continue to move forward. And there's been so many times. There's been so many times I've been on the phone with a client who's at the end of themselves, and I'm sitting there going, how am I going to get through this with this person? They're president, organization, they're losing their family, they're losing everything, and they're just panicking. And then all of a sudden, at that end of that conversation, everything's better. And I'm Like, I was not in there. Yes, I was on the phone, but, dude, I was not in there. And the words that were coming out of my mouth sometimes were knowledge that I didn't even know I had.

A (78:30)

Yes. Yes. That's how I feel about you.

B (78:32)

Can't take the victory for it.

A (78:33)

Well, that's. Yeah. I've reflected upon a lot of this with speaking. It's like, where the fuck does this energy come from? Yeah, what the fuck is this? Like, I don't even know what it is. I'm like, what? It's just like, switch flips and everybody. That's the one thing people have said to me is like, dude, you're, like. You're passionate. It's like, I guess. I don't know. Like, it's not my. It's not me. I'm not. Yeah. It's not manufactured. Like, it's legitimate, but I couldn't tell you where it comes from. I can't find it whenever I, Like,

B (79:08)

I can't drum it up or manufacture it.

A (79:09)

No. But. But. But now I've started, and I've reflected upon this over the past few months. It's like, don't. Don't get in its way.

B (79:18)

Yeah.

A (79:18)

Like, don't try to pull it back. Don't. And don't. Don't pull it back to make other people feel better or. Or how are they gonna. How are they gonna respond? Or is it gonna make them feel weird? This and that. Like, even not. Not too long ago, I was in a group setting. A podcast in a group setting. I. It's not my favorite thing, but, you know, I was like, all right, do I want to be. And I kind of. Even the way I introduced myself was like, me. You know, kind of me, kind of. Oh, yeah, this and this and that. But then as you get going, you're like, okay, like, I'm just gonna say what the fuck? I think. And I even had to, like, kind of flip a switch in my head. Like, wait a minute. Just lean into it.

B (80:00)

Yeah.

A (80:00)

Doesn't matter how it makes them feel what other people think. Just let it go. And I've been trying to do a lot more of that because it's like, it's here for a reason. You have it. Use it. Don't. Don't. Don't push it down. Don't smother it with the pillow. But, I mean, I have to wield it in. In certain ways. I can't just let it. Yeah.

B (80:21)

You're not packing.

A (80:21)

Just railroad.

B (80:22)

If you don't believe What I believe.

A (80:24)

Yeah, yeah. You're all gonna burn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I am. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's Chosen One. Yeah. No, it's, it's. And that, that, and that's why I, I, I don't like talking about it too much because it's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. That's. Trust me, that's not what's going on here by any stretch of the imagination.

B (80:43)

Yeah. I think a lot of times. Well, I know for a fact a lot of times there always comes a point in my coaching where I'm going to ask someone, are you a person of faith? I don't ask what faith? I don't ask what are you a person of faith? And a lot of times, 90% of the times, people are like, yes, I am. But I don't ask what. So I know that they have a guiding force in their lives. Yeah. And that helps so much in that coaching. And then there's those moments again, because that gets initiated. I'm like, that was not me in there. And that was, you know, something real. Lasting change had come in to that moment. And for us, coming from the non for profit space, you know, we were in the church for years. I was a pastor for years. And helping people to reconnect with the fact that they have greatness within them and it's of the divine. And it's of the divine that they'll find their pathway to it and help enhance it. I think it's important to understand in, in construction.

A (81:41)

There's a lot of that in this industry, especially. Like, that's what I've realized too. Even you go to Dirt World, like, what's the common theme here? It's. Faith is a pretty common theme throughout most of that room, most of that group. It's really incredible. It's like, wait a minute. I didn't even realize it until a few years ago.

B (81:58)

And we went to the Devotion that morning and the room was like, we got there early, but then it was standing room only.

A (82:04)

Yeah. It's unbelievable.

B (82:05)

Like, I was like, oh, wow. So please. Like, Herb and I were sitting there and it was Herb and myself and Anita and we're all sitting there. I'm like, at first it was just like the three of us.

A (82:13)

Yeah.

B (82:13)

And I think, well, I guess it's just us. And then all of a sudden they just come rolling in.

A (82:17)

It's, it's really something. But I, I've struggled to figure out how to even talk about it as well. Because, like, one. I'm not a fan of church. I'm not a church guy. I. I go into a church, I like. I don't know what it is. It's like, I have an allergic reaction to the place. I'm like, I just want to get out. I don't want anything to do with it. So that's one thing. I don't. I really don't like people preaching at me. I do. I do not like it. It's like, hey, I'm really happy that's working out for you. If I'm curious, I'll lean in. And maybe that's my problem. Like, maybe that's my problem. I don't know. But, like, I don't want to be that guy, because I really don't like that. And that's partially what's always driven me away from it. Once somebody starts coming at me, I'm like, I just want to run. And, I mean, I could be all in on what they're saying, but for whatever reason, I just want out. And I don't know what that is. But then it's also just been so helpful for me personally. And so I'm trying to share it from, like, from my perspective. I'm not trying to put it on anybody else. Yeah. From where I'm at. And I don't know what any of it means. Like, I have all these questions. I'm like, even the. Like, it's a very basic question, but, like, all right, and this is gonna. This is gonna give my. Give my faith away here. Like, what's really the relationship between God and Jesus Christ? Like, am I praying to God? Am I praying to Jesus? Like, what's the dynamic here? Like, I still don't really know. Like, I've read the New Testament. I, like, I like what this guy is saying, like, this and that. I'm. I think it's a cool dude. It's a really. Yeah, it's a really. It's sound principles. But then. But then I thought, you know, God was the guy. But then everybody's like, no, you got to give your life up to Jesus. Well, I'm like, wait, wait. But I thought. I thought God was the guy and that. I'm being a little silly, but, like, that's the track in my head right now. Like, I'm just trying to figure it out. So I don't want to be the guy. Like, you should go do this, because this is the way to live. Because I don't know what the heck's going on.

B (84:26)

And that's why it goes back to that very big. The very first. Well, earlier in the conversation about love. That's why I think people understand that language of love. And that's why when you're yelled at, it doesn't feel like love. It just feels like someone else telling you all the things you're doing wrong and not explaining what's good about you. And as far as that, relationships concern. I know that, like, there are people listening right now, and there's just, you know, 10,000 different opinions on that question that you just asked.

A (84:53)

Yes, right. Which is why I don't like even talking about it. Yeah. And then somebody's gonna reach out and be like, we should talk about this. And like. No, no, please, no.

B (85:01)

Okay, Aaron, for the next 30 minutes, we're going to have a dissertation.

A (85:05)

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm reading Luke right now. Yeah, let me figure it out myself. Maybe I never figured out. I don't know.

B (85:12)

But I'll lean back on Perry. What Perry used to tell me about things like this, I'd get. So. And I've been to Bible college. I didn't graduate, but I've sat with theologians who held the Dead Sea Scrolls in their hands, and they spoke fluid, fluid Latin and Hebrew and Aramaic, and it was just. And they could switch out of. This guy, Dr. Barnes, was just amazing. But Perry would say. Say, you know, God knows

A (85:43)

your.

B (85:45)

God knows what you don't know. And if he made it so hard to get in, how does that make any sense at all? Yeah, how does that make any sense at all? And so for you, I just want to encourage you to know that because you're on a path, he's going to reveal things to you.

A (86:01)

And that's all I ask for, right? Yes.

B (86:03)

And so it's not. I think God looks for more ways to keep you in than kick you out.

A (86:07)

And that. And. And that's. That's what I've regularly prayed for. One of the things is, like, just help me with understanding. Like, I want more understanding. I'm trying to understand. Just help me through this, because I. I do want it. Like, I'm. I'm. I spent many years resisting because I thought it was this one thing. I thought I had to go to church, especially this megachurch, and listen to some rock band to do it with

B (86:33)

the lighting and the smoke machines.

A (86:34)

Yeah, that one always gets any of this. Like, once I realize those of you out there that.

B (86:38)

Are they. If that's your thing, that's your thing.

A (86:41)

That's your thing. Like even just the judgment in this world, as I've gotten more into it of like people judging for. Oh, you do it that way. That way is wrong. It's like isn't. I thought the whole thing was not judging people.

B (86:57)

If we're. Then we're all wrong.

A (86:59)

Yeah. So like, you're the one that's right. Nancy. 42 years old, like with, you know,

B (87:06)

God who built a shark who knows how to tear things up and gobble is the same one that built his pathway for us to know him.

A (87:12)

Yeah.

B (87:12)

And the shark is simple. Nature is simple.

A (87:15)

And the shark's just doing his thing.

B (87:17)

He's just trying to be a shark. He's just being a shark. Yeah. Sharks aren't evil, by the way. It's just gotta suck to get eaten by one. But it's simple. Nature is simple. Everything is created simple. So why would the pathway to him be so difficult and rot with such condemnation and shame? Yeah.

A (87:34)

But it's been like. To tie it back to original conversation. It's been.

B (87:38)

Which I did not expect this would go there.

A (87:40)

I didn't either. That's the great thing about this. But that has helped me be a more effective leader.

B (87:48)

Absolutely.

A (87:48)

Because it's, it's. It's brought a greater sense of peace within me. It's brought a greater sense of understanding, of thoughtfulness, which I think has made me a lot more effective. So it's been, it's been really good from a leadership perspective because it's, it's helped me from like a deep. In a deep sense.

B (88:10)

Yeah.

A (88:10)

Inner. Inner sense.

B (88:12)

It gives you more of a perspective that what you say and what you do matters. And it matters on an internal. It resonates a lot further than what I think normal people think. That's why people look so linearly. They don't realize that what they do echoes. And when you have faith, you realize it does. It's universal and it goes way beyond you long after you're a cliff note in history and long forgotten. Yeah, it resonates, but it's also a

A (88:42)

dichotomy because I think people are too afraid of saying stuff that's wrong. Like, I talk so much shit. This is like. This is my playground for just. Just saying nonsense. And like, half of the stuff I say ends up being completely incorrect six months from now. But that's the process as well. I have to talk through a bunch of stuff.

B (89:03)

Right.

A (89:03)

So like, as a leader, I do try to be very mindful of my words. But then I also, if you're like too afraid or you're trying to say the right thing all the time. You just end up saying nothing.

B (89:15)

Oh, and I think that's what we have in society right now. Either people are so brash and it's all based upon spectacle, or it's so nicey nice. And I think that's what a lot of leaders have a hard time with it. Like, well, who am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be a hard ass or am I supposed to be nicey nice? Like where's the balance and all that? And one of the things I end a lot of my videos in the podcast and our learning platform. We, we are building a learning platform on BowmanLegacies.com. we have our own app. And I say this a lot. I say, look, I've got more issues in Time magazine. If you're looking for perfection, you're looking at the wrong guy. I'm not looking down at you at these conversations. We're rowing in the same boat. Turn around, I'm right behind you. And if God can love me, I can love you right where you're at.

A (90:00)

But that, that, I think that's what makes you effective, is you're not there to preach at people.

B (90:04)

No.

A (90:04)

You're like, listen, bud, I've done it wrong there.

B (90:07)

Yeah, yeah. Let me tell you, I'll continue to do it wrong. And I, I think this too. A lot of the times you get these polished guys and they're telling you how everything is and how great they are and they do not admit there's darkness. And I have coached high functioning people.

A (90:21)

Those are the ones you gotta look out, dude.

B (90:23)

Those are the ones. I'm telling you, there's such.

A (90:26)

What massage parlor are you hanging out to?

B (90:28)

It's the truth though.

A (90:29)

But always one of those guys.

B (90:33)

Always one of those guys. And there's a reason why they're. The word cult is in culture. There's a reason. And so anyone that's telling you they've got it made and they figured it all out is selling you an ill bag of goods. The fact is we are all up.

A (90:50)

But they're, they're the.

B (90:52)

Okay.

A (90:53)

That just confuses the heck out of me though, because they're the first ones to lose. Like, what an exhausting way to live. Trying to just be perfect all the time. Like, oh gosh. Oh yeah, that's terrible.

B (91:05)

It's a hard, it's like when you have to be tough all the time.

A (91:07)

Yeah, yeah, same thing.

B (91:09)

When you have to act tough all time, what happens the day you can't, like. I can't close my hands, dude.

A (91:14)

Yeah.

B (91:15)

Okay. I walk with a cane occasionally. I pass out sometimes. I. Like today I was driving, and I'm like, all of a sudden, I can't drive now. So we have to pull over and she has to drive. And so, you know, the days of me being the toug badass are. Are long gone. Of being brash and trying to make you feel small because, you know, you need to feel small about it.

A (91:36)

Yeah, well, I am small. I usually feel small, especially on blue collar guys.

B (91:41)

Yeah.

A (91:42)

But.

B (91:42)

So I think it's exhausting. It's exhausting to keep up. I'm perfect. I'm tough, or I'm the smart one, or I'm the one who doesn't get in trouble. You know, that expectation of perfection is just too much to carry. But the admittance of it. I had a boss, and I may have said this the last time, but I got hired as a driller. And the owner of the company, Matt, called me, and I'm putting a radiator in a. In a 1994 Tahoe Chevy Tahoe. And he calls me up and he tells me. And this is what he told me, and I love this. He said, michael, we want to hire you. And I was like, oh, thank God. Because I really needed to get out of where I was at. And he said, but here's the deal, and I want to lay this on the line for you right now. He said, I'm fucked up, and there's days I'm going to fuck you, and there's days you're going to fuck me. But if we can keep that fucking down to a bare minimum, you and I'll be square.

A (92:40)

That's an eloquent way of putting it.

B (92:42)

Right? And he said, and don't steal from me, which is, see you Monday. So I show up. And that's the. And so he was there to tell me, this isn't going to be a perfect process, and you're going to feel screwed. Some days I'm going to try to keep it down to a bare minimum, but you're going to feel hosed. And so every time I got hosed, I didn't feel so bad because he already told me it was coming because he was honest with who he was. He didn't try to project himself as some perfect person who had it all together. And it helped me to understand that now. But I've worked for people and worked with people that present themselves as perfection. They're always perfect. They always got the right thing to say. And then when you know their personal life, you know what's happening in the background, you see their business and how it actually works, and you're like, you grieve for them.

A (93:28)

And that's exactly it you feel. Yet you grieve for them.

B (93:32)

You hurt.

A (93:33)

Just look at them. You're like, oh, man, that just sucks. That's such a bummer because it sucks

B (93:38)

for you, but that also sucks for all those great guys that are working

A (93:42)

for you all around you. Well, and that's so the, and the concept, it's a biblical principle, but judge a, judge a tree by its fruit. Yeah, I've thought a lot about that. Like, if you want to learn about a company, just go talk to their people at any level. Oh my gosh, it'll tell you far more than the leadership can tell you. You'll know right away what kind of leadership the company has by just talking to anybody on a job site.

B (94:07)

I reached out to a guy one time, I was talking to him and, and he was key. He was in the executive staff of this particular company. What he did not know is I had talked to earlier that week, three other people that worked for him, and one of which was. Had worked for him for several years, kind of used his company to, to step into the, the dirt world so he could grow. And he just got a new job. And this company reached out to me because they knew I knew the kid and he's a grown man, but to me he's a kid. And so I said, oh, this guy's excellent, a man of integrity. So he gets the job. And he called, he reaches out to me and I talk to him, him, and he's bawling on the phone because he's so glad to get out of there. Now this is a blue collar guy who is tough, who played semi professional sports. And he's, he's a big fella. And I just remember him. All of a sudden he just like, he just released, like finally, he just realized, I'm finally out of here. And he cried and he thanked me and so I was like, oh, it's all good, man. I know you and I think you're a good, great person. So then I talked to one of the people who were leading him at this other company. He left days later and he said, well, Michael, you know, the culture that we have here is next to none. And I'm thinking, oh, no, you're right. I just talked to three people. You're so blind. And I think if you're listening to this today and you have a company and you're leading, one of the key essential things, and I want to give this to you, this is powerful. One of the key essential things that you can do for yourself is look in the mirror. And you do that through the eyes of other people. Okay? So when you're leading other people and your business is prospering and you really want to grow, ask others how you are doing. And not your yes men, not the ones who are drinking the Kool Aid, not the ones who just are in love with you, but the ones that you've had problems with, the ones that you've hurt. The ones that have hurt you. Ask those things and then ask yourself, how honest is that? I started doing that myself. I asked my 14 year old daughter

A (96:06)

at the time, that's a good way to get feedback.

B (96:08)

And I'm gonna tell you what she told me. I'm sure it was brutal. My older daughter, she's a daddy's girl, she told me I'm doing great. I asked the wife, she's doing you pretty good. She gave me some things I thought that she thought I needed to improve on. Picked my fort, she's 14 at the time, she's not now, but picked her up at ballet, took her to Chick Fil A, sat in the Target parking lot and asked her. And boy, let me tell you, for the next 45 minutes I got to hear a dissertation of how much I sucked. And so but even though that hurt because I want to be the best dad ever, because having kids was the best thing ever happened to me, I love my, my kids. And I learned a lot from that. And I looked at, okay, well, how much of this is emotional from a 14 year old child? How much of it is wisdom? And a lot of it she was absolutely right about. And I made those adjustments and she still talks to me. She still talks to me.

A (97:01)

That's a big win, right? Yeah.

B (97:03)

And so ultimately, at the end of the day, leader, I ask you this, what are you doing? You building a business to sell or you're trying to build a legacy company? Are you trying to do something that, where you realize you're building something long after you're gone is still going to provide meals, college tuition payment for houses, cars, and helping people move forward, or are you just building for your ego? I'm telling you something else is possible.

A (97:30)

Well, and to those, to that, to that line too. What's always confused me is how fixated some people are on building a business for Their kids.

B (97:39)

The kids often don't want it. 90 of the time.

A (97:42)

I've never envied anybody that's in a generational business. I've seen it too many times over to want it. Yeah. No. No chance. No chance. But they're just. I've seen it. They're so fixated on giving it to their kids, and their kids are like small children. But it's like, what about everybody working for the company today? What about everybody you employ next year? Like, what. What about all of them? What about all their families? Like, there's a bigger picture here. Like, do it for that. And, and if your kids end up wanting it, great. That's like a bonus. But, like, I feel like sometimes they get so. And I don't have kids, so I don't understand the, the, the whatever that is, that primal instinct to just like, give everything to your kids. I don't get it, though, because I've seen so many kids fucked up by money. Like everybody I grew up with. I mean, it's just a wreckage, just a boneyard of all this money and destruction along the way.

B (98:46)

Yeah.

A (98:46)

So to me, it's like building a. Again, I don't understand. Building a business for your kids, I understand. Like, why wouldn't you focus on building a business for your people?

B (98:55)

Right.

A (98:56)

For your customers, for the community. And again, if your kids want to be a part of it, great. Neat.

B (99:01)

Right?

A (99:01)

But I would not make that the goal if I was doing it, at least based on what I've seen, what I've learned. Learned.

B (99:07)

I think it's an old world concept where the kids inherited the business no

A (99:11)

matter what it is. Right.

B (99:12)

It's an old world concept. And I think that I've seen it go horribly wrong. And because nepotism usually doesn't work and the, the kid doesn't have that same investment, they don't have that same. They didn't see this thing come from the, from the ground up. They didn't. They don't have the same blood, sweat and tears. And so they take a lot for granted. But I've also seen it work, but it only can work via intentionality and understanding. I know a guy right now who's letting his kid work within the organization and he's told no one. It's his child. Oh, and this is one of the most freaking awesome things. And dude, if you're listening, you know he arps, but I don't want to say it out loud because no one knows it. It's his kid.

A (99:49)

Yeah, some right now. Undercover kid.

B (99:51)

Yes, dude.

A (99:52)

Fake mustache.

B (99:53)

Yeah.

A (99:53)

Right.

B (99:53)

No one knows it's his child. Yeah. And so. And he's, he's not putting the boots to his kid. You know, a lot of people say, oh, you're my son, so I'm gonna, you know. You know, you're gonna get it 10 times worse.

A (100:04)

Yeah. And which is how it is. A lot of times people think they have it easier.

B (100:07)

I'm like, yeah, no, not responsible. Dads really care. Moms really cares. Usually, you know, they put the spurs to you harder than they would anyone else. But yeah, he's making him earn it. You know what I mean? And he's going ground up. And if he wants it, he wants it. If he doesn't, so he's dipping his toe in it. They're doing it Right. Is what I'm saying.

A (100:23)

You know, I, and I, I'm all for multi generational businesses.

B (100:26)

Sure.

A (100:27)

But again, I'm saying this as a guy without kids.

B (100:30)

Yeah. So.

A (100:31)

Well, it's probably not all that worthwhile, but I've seen it like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds times.

B (100:37)

Oh, yeah.

A (100:38)

The odds. I think it's unfair to the kid because the odds of that being their thing in life are really, really, really, really slim.

B (100:48)

Yeah.

A (100:48)

And so I think it's, I think it's starving them of an opportunity to explore life and to become an individual and to see what's out there for them.

B (101:00)

Yes.

A (101:01)

If it is that cool, great. But you should go do everything. Cross everything else off the list. And if that's the last thing, you better prove it. Like, that's how I would treat it. At least. Like, if you want to come work here, if that's fine, you better figure it out. I am not paving the way for you. I don't want you here. Like, because again, I would be saying that in the kids interest because the odds of this being the kid's thing, again, are so slim. Right. So slim in the grand scheme of things.

B (101:29)

Well, and that, gosh, I can't. This is.

A (101:32)

And maybe people listening to this, like, yeah, fuck you, dude. Like, well, there is going to be

B (101:37)

people, but, oh, well, you know, when

A (101:38)

it works, it works. It's awesome. It is the coolest thing ever to see it.

B (101:41)

Yeah. 100.

A (101:42)

Boy, you beat. That's. But that's the bias. That is you only see the victories. But what about all of the horrible, horrible stories along the way that people don't talk about?

B (101:56)

Well, I think that goes to where you lead. Right. And how you lead is this A cult or not. So if you want your people to think for yourself, you want your kids to think for themselves and explore every other option instead of guilting them to hold up to this standard and hold. And hold up this business, because by God, we're wileys. If there's a wily business listening right now, I have no idea who you are, but, you know, and this is how we do things, and this is who you are. It never works. And then that person's in this hell of trying to live up to your shadow, and it never really works. So always, like when I, we had kids, I wanted both of my kids to be in martial arts. The youngest one is extremely athletic. The oldest one, she has a right cross that can knock out a mule. Seriously, I mean, we did. I've my kids, I raised grizzly bears. I didn't grace subservient little women to be abused by this world. And I raised girls that kick ass. And I'm telling you, my oldest girl can knock a grown man out. And I'm like, dude, you're on the path. I could totally, I could take you

A (102:51)

where I left off. Yeah.

B (102:52)

I could live vicariously through you. And then I can, I could finally get in the world I always wanted to be, you know, and I'd be a liar if there wasn't a hint of that, but she's an artist. She has to be able to go where she wants to go. My youngest is a ballerina, and damn, she's great at it. And so I'm going to let them be who they need to be. I'm still going to teach them how to kick ass, but I'm going to let them choose who they want to be. And I think that's where the heart is, because so many people can't think outside of themselves. It goes back to the beginning of the conversation, full circle. You have to stop thinking you know, everything and start listening and start watching and observing and seeing what's best for others and not only what's best for you or what you think the answer

A (103:36)

is is, well, and that, and that, that, that goes to why I really respect my father. His only career advice growing up, and people don't understand it now, he, he called it a day on being a father, you know, a little prematurely. He retired from fatherhood a few years ago, so there's that complication. But I've worked through plenty of it and I'm very appreciative for how he brought me up. The only piece of a career advice he ever gave Me, he was a lawyer. And I've never met a lawyer even close to him. Like, he was a fucking weapon as a lawyer. Unbelievable. Lawyer. And he just loved it. Well, he just. He just. He just lived and breathed law, tax law, which could not be more terrible to me. And he knew that. And the only career advice was, do not go to law school because you'll hate it.

B (104:30)

Yeah.

A (104:30)

Not because he hated it. He loved it. It was his thing. But he was smart enough to be like, it is not your thing. This is not your world. You will hate it. Do not follow in my footsteps. That was the only career advice he ever gave me.

B (104:47)

That was enough, though.

A (104:48)

And I took.

B (104:49)

Trusted you.

A (104:50)

Yes, he did. Which is another thing. That was a blessing. Growing up. Both my parents trusted me. Me, which a lot of parents, they don't trust their kids. And what happens, My parents don't trust me. I'm going to go be a. Whereas I was like, I'm going to go be a. I don't. I like being trusted by my parents. I don't like having a leash. So, like, am I going to go brush up against the guardrails? Yeah. Because I'm a kid, I'm trying to exercise my freedom, so on and so forth. But every time I'd. I'd hit the guardrail, I'd be like, you have it pretty good. Don't screw it up. And I was like, you know, I do have it pretty good. I don't need to screw it up. Which is just the unbelievable thing. And it's the same with a company, same as a leader. To build trust, you have to give trust to people first. You have to go first. I think when it comes to trust, trust is time. Consistent action over time. That's a big part of it. But I always go first. You have to be vulnerable. And I think leaders, they've been screwed so many times over that they're just like, they have to prove themselves before I, you know, trust them. Like, they go first. It's like, that's not how.

B (105:57)

You're the leader. You're the initiator.

A (105:59)

Yeah, no wonder everybody around you set the pace. Yes, but. But like, yeah, no wonder everybody around you is not trustworthy because you're not teeing it up like it comes from you, man. It starts with you. Like, I knock on wood. Haven't been screwed in business all that many times because I don't. I feel like I just trust people and I don't deal with shitty people.

B (106:21)

That opens up.

A (106:22)

It's not that hard I feel like it's not that complicated. And then everybody around. Like, I look at our team, look at our company, I'm like, why the are these people here? Like, they are just class acts. Just 10 out of 10 unbelievable human beings. And it's the coolest thing in the world. It is unbelievable.

B (106:44)

Well, that equates to you trusting them and allowing them to be who they are. A lot of leaders lead out of fear, and they're motivated by fear. If we don't do this, we lose the client. If we don't do this, that. If we don't do this, this. If you don't look a certain way. I'll never forget the most fearful staff I ever saw in my life. I don't even know if I should mention this, but, okay, so here we go. So I walk into the office, and I notice that everyone kind of looks the same. They're all dressed the same. And then I realized they all drink the same coffee. They all drink the same drinks. And they all go. All the men went to the same barber. The president did. Hair stylist.

A (107:30)

Are you explaining any kind of real estate company or finance company or consulting business?

B (107:34)

This is a dirt world company. Believe it or not. This is a dirt world company. And there you go. There's the cult and culture. And the reason why is because this guy led with fear. And everyone felt as though you could tell. They even began to talk like him. And some of them went so far to have his mannerisms.

A (107:52)

That's terrifying.

B (107:53)

And I'm looking for these things. That's my job. My job. It's always been my life. And, you know, like you said, pick the thing you love. I love helping people. I have this insatiable desire to see people win. And I have this, I don't know, this weird quirk where people say, this guy's a loser and he'll never win. And I'll be like, give him to me. Give them to me. I'll love him right across the finish line. And so. So I walk in there, I see all these things, and everybody's wearing the same thing. Everybody's talking the same, haircuts are similar. And these guys felt like if they didn't use the same terminology, if they didn't seem young, if they didn't seem cool, then they weren't valid, and then they were going to be deemed culturally unfit for the organization. So this team never told the president that he sucked, that he undermined people all the time, that he was getting into things he shouldn't have. Anything to do with. They never had the bravery to tell him that he was in over his head at times with things, and they didn't have the bravery to tell him when things were going wrong in the field. And so a lot of information wasn't getting back to him of things that he actually really needed to know. And things just had to look good. As long as the website looks good, as long as we look good, we are good. And. And it was very soulless. And I felt very sorry after leaving there, going. These people, they didn't even seem almost human because they didn't seem themselves.

A (109:27)

Oh, yeah. Walk into a bank nowadays, like, there's a lot of whole industries like that, and it just bums me out. It's just like, soulless.

B (109:35)

No end, no individuals.

A (109:37)

No.

B (109:37)

It's like, don't stand out.

A (109:40)

This feels terrible. Yeah, I'd rather be in a hospital right now. But I tell people, like, especially when they're new coming in here, I. I always make it a point. One, I want to paint the picture for them, sell them the vision. Like, right, here's what we're trying to do. It's a pretty big deal, and you're a part of that now. So. I do, I do, in a very positive way. Try to tee it up. Like, big opportunity here. You're a part of it now. But two, I always tell them, don't buy into what the heck's going on here. Don't drink the Kool Aid. Don't. Don't buy into any of this shit. Don't trust me. Don't listen to what I say. If we had everything figured out, we wouldn't be hiring you. Like, we need you to go do something better, to figure something out to solve some problems that we have. Like, that's why this whole thing exists. You're not just here to plug a hole, to be a number. Like, we need you. We don't have everything figured out. It's a disaster.

B (110:33)

It's a dumpster fire sometimes.

A (110:35)

Yeah. And I say it jokingly, but also not like, yeah, I don't want them buying into that. I've never wanted a business like that because that kind of. Again, I have an allergic reaction to it. If everybody's so bought in on something, I want to go the opposite way. Like, I'm out. And. And that's why, like, even in college, I struggle with this. I was in a fraternity for a few semesters. I dropped out.

B (111:00)

That's brutal.

A (111:01)

I. I dropped out like that. It wasn't that hard of a decision because it's like everybody's so just bought in on this one thing and it's for whatever reason just giving me the ick. And within our business, I don't, I don't ever want that. I want, I want a great business, a great team, very caring, loving people. But I don't want people just buying in because they're buying in. Like it's not. That's not how this works.

B (111:26)

I hired a guy one time and I said, I see what you see online and I know you're super attracted to this and you're super excited. And the guy's name was Craig. And I said, craig, buddy, I appreciate all that. I know you're bought in. But here's the deal. If I were to tell you we're going to battle and we have everything at our disposal, tanks, jets, the whole thing. And then you show up and I have two 10 speed bikes and a, and a fishing pole, and that's what we're going to war with. You're going to be pissed at me. So let me tell you where we're at. We're at 1:10 speed bike and half a fishing pole. That's where we're at. That's what you're jumping into. So I love the fact that you're on board. I love the fact that you see what we're trying to put out there. But we have problems and it's okay to point those things out. So I want to encourage you, when you see them, don't hide them from me. Let me know. And if it's me, let me know how I'm functioning and how I can better help you. Because we can't move forward and be what we want to be. And so I think that's too. It's just where our culture is. Hide. Hide behind things and don't look. I tell my clients this all the time. There's my guts. It's nasty, isn't it? Smells bad. But that's who I am. And I won't hide that. I'd rather fail in the open and fall in front of you than hide that. Because that's hard work too. That's hard work.

A (112:49)

I think it's harder work. Oh, I would argue you couldn't pay me enough to live like that. Now that I'm doing this thing, I'm like hiding.

B (112:57)

Come on. No.

A (112:58)

Come on.

B (112:59)

No. It's so much hard work. And you have to like that term. Wag the dog makes me sick. It makes me want to puke. It's that idea of the tail's wagon. But really now you're hiding all this stuff. Yeah. You're trying to placate to, to the crowds and everything. There's nothing more to see here. Everything's okay, guys. Well, everything's fine.

A (113:16)

And that I've struggled more and more dealing with big companies for that reason.

B (113:20)

Yeah.

A (113:21)

Because the whole thing's like that. Yeah. I mean, it's become like kind of a problem too. Like I'll be sitting in these meetings like this and I just, I mean, sometimes you can't always say what you want to say and you can't always say what you're thinking. But unfortunately, sometimes we have to play the game. But we have somebody like Jason on our team who plays the game better than anybody. And he loves it. It's his thing. He just, he loves it. Whereas me, no, I don't have time for it. Like, then. And it's like, cool. Yeah. You guys are this multi billion dollar company. This and that, with no real risk, unlimited budget, you can do whatever you want. That's not the program I'm on, man. If I don't eat, if I don't kill, I don't eat. Like my family's not eating if their food, the food's not on the table. So I better go find a rabbit or something.

B (114:07)

Yeah.

A (114:07)

Because right now there's nothing.

B (114:08)

Yeah. I say that to my clients all the time. And they're like, oh, thank you for showing up today. I'm like, well, if I don't, do I have value? I have to show up every day. Yeah, I have to. Or that this is just an absolute waste of your time. And I won't be that. That I won't be that I'm showing up because it matters that much. Because like you said, my family doesn't eat if I don't kill.

A (114:32)

Before we get out of here, what are you, what are you focused on now?

B (114:35)

Right now we're really focused on@bowmanlegacies.com on our website. We have a leadership platform there based on the book Lead from the middle. It's ww.bowmanlegacies.com forward/lead from the Middle. And it is what we are plugging into companies right now and working a lot of our clients through. All of our clients through right now. As far as the leadership portion is concerned, it is based on the whole person. And so it's, it's a, it's a very good personal growth and leadership platform. It's also available on the Bowman Legacies app we started our podcast back up. It's unpolished and unapologetic, so I keep you for about 20 minutes. But I always want to try to fill you with hope. I'm always trying to be the voice of reason, and I don't. I spent a whole life being provocative and it got me nowhere. So I just want to be a person who's trying to fill people with hope. So check us out on the Bowman Legacies podcast, because I want to fill you with hope. I want to give you something that you can use that's going to help you get through your week and jettison your life forward to help you 10x. And that's what we're focused on right now, man.

A (115:42)

Really good. Really good. Very happy for you. I'm glad everything's going well.

B (115:46)

Thank you. Yeah, same with you, man. I'm proud and I think just don't lose hope out there. For wherever you're at, whoever is listening, there's always hope. There's always a way out. There's always an answer. Just don't give yourself a break. Don't beat yourself up so much this week. You have greatness within you, but it's up to you to live up to it.

A (116:09)

Awesome. Thanks for coming.

B (116:10)

Thank you for having us.