Nate Simpson w/ Landmark Excavating – DT 366

Summary

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Dirt Talk by BuildWitt

Episode 366: Nate Simpson w/ Landmark Excavating

Released: August 21, 2025

Host: Aaron Witt
Guests: Nate Simpson (Landmark Excavating), Randy (BuildWitt Team)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Aaron Witt in conversation with Nate Simpson, founder and owner of Landmark Excavating, and joined by BuildWitt teammate Randy. The discussion navigates Nate’s entrepreneurial journey in heavy civil construction, how Landmark survived the 2008 crash and experienced post-pandemic growth, and a deep dive into people-first leadership—focusing on employee well-being, retention, mental health, and the evolving culture of the construction industry. Both hosts and guest reflect on generational mindsets, challenges of hiring in today’s market, leveraging social media, and the need for more holistic health and wellness initiatives in construction.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Health and Wellness in Construction

• Aaron opens by critiquing "stretch and flex" programs as superficial, arguing for a holistic approach to worker health.

  "The whole stretch and flex thing I think is a joke... We're not going to talk about alcoholism, poor nutrition, the reality of the hours. We just stretch and flex." [00:00]

• He draws parallels to professional sports teams, suggesting construction should invest in the physical performance of its people.

2. The Reality of Self-Performance and Control

• Conversation on contractors moving from subcontracting to self-performing more work for better control over schedules and outcomes.

  "Self-performing is very advantageous when it comes to just control. Control owning your destiny." —Aaron [01:42]

3. Nate’s Origin Story: From Farm Kid to Excavation Boss

• Nate recounts growing up on a Utah farm, learning from family, and starting Landmark Excavating post-mission (age 21) with a skid steer and a dump truck.

  "I loved building things. I loved running the equipment... bought a skid steer and a dump truck, started moving dirt for buddies who were landscape contractors." —Nate [04:18]

• Early days involved hustling for work, directly approaching developers, and leveraging classified ads.

Memorable Moment

"My first government contract was the BLM... loading material from this wash and then hauling it up to this dirt air strip. Went out into the middle of nowhere and just figured it out." —Nate [06:18]

4. Learning the Business by Doing

• Nate and Aaron both emphasize that there is no playbook for starting a construction company; most people "just figure it out."

  "I feel like people overcomplicate things a little bit... Just take your best guess, do the job, then compare at the end. That's how everybody's done it." —Aaron [10:19]

5. Landmark’s Growth, the 2008 Crash, and Rebuilding

• Nate grows from a solo founder to 40–50 employees—then slashes down to one crew during the 2008 financial crisis.
• Sells off most equipment, preserves equity, and survives thanks to Caterpillar Finance flexibility.

  "One of the most important organizations within this industry is Caterpillar Finance. I could not give them more credit for starting just straight-up American businesses." —Aaron [17:57]

• Reflects on the pain of layoffs, the learning process, and being glad to have faced hardship early in his career.

"Because I'll say, I'm so glad that I went through it. Yeah, I think now you are... But just to go through that and learn those lessons at such a young age." —Nate [20:39]

6. Restarting Landmark: The Role of Family & Loyalty

• After working for a mentor (Ken Condi) for two years post-recession, Nate’s wife pushes him to reclaim his entrepreneurial path.

  "We were coming back from Lake Powell, and she turns to me and she goes, I want you to go in, and I want you to quit your job tomorrow... you need to be you." —Nate [29:10]

• Upon word getting out, former loyal employees contact him, and Landmark is rebooted.

7. Sustaining Growth: Public vs Private Work, Utah Market Insights

• Nate explains Landmark’s balanced approach: "We really want to be 50% private work, 50% public work." [31:51]
• Discusses Utah’s rapid public and private construction growth, forward-thinking DOT spending, and regional differences.

8. Pandemic Hiring Crisis & Turnover Solutions

• During the pandemic/post-pandemic boom, hiring is frantic: "If you have a pulse and pass a drug screen, you'll give us 50% of what we need." —Nate [35:52]
• High turnover ensues: up to 35% monthly for new hires; company struggles to retain and culture suffers.

9. Building a People-First Organization

The Role of Director of Safety & Employee Experience (Jake)

• Nate brings in Jake as Director of Safety/Employee Experience.

  "He's taken our programs and created three acronyms: CARE (counseling), AID (loan), and RISE (education/training)—all formalized support systems for employees." [43:12]

• Jake also implements a weekly "log" system: short forms for all employees to express how they feel about safety, management, and mental health. Immediate follow-up is possible when low scores appear.
• Outcomes: Turnover in the first 6 months drops from 35% to 8% monthly; for longer-term employees, from 8% to 2%.

Quote

"We had grown beyond what I was able to do, like, what I was able to handle by focusing on both things." —Nate [40:06]

10. Addressing Industry-Wide Retention and Turnover

• Aaron underscores the high cost of turnover and rejects the notion that "people just don’t want to work anymore" as entitled thinking.

  "If you can't get the people you need to do the work, you are failing when it comes to being competitive." —Aaron [49:24]

• Simple systems (like the logs and formalized personal support) are highlighted as difference-makers—implementation does not need to be expensive but must be intentional.

11. Apprenticeship, Training, and Social Media

• Landmark launches Utah’s first state-approved private apprenticeship; utilizes BuildWitt learning platform.

• Social media, once ignored by Nate, becomes key in recruiting high-quality candidates and spreading Landmark’s culture.

  "Social media is a way, a platform to get more information out there about your culture and who you really are as a company." —Nate [73:11]

• Utah DOT cited as a social media exemplary—informative, fun, engaging the public and workforce.

12. Leadership, Vulnerability & Generational Shifts

• Leadership buy-in is shown to be the key to sustaining new programs and culture; also crucial in convincing others to open up and seek help.

  "I can't talk about mental health if I'm not doing the work on my mental health... it just gives me so much more credibility." —Aaron [114:47]

• Generational stereotypes are discussed; Aaron and Nate reject the idea that young people "don’t want to work," instead blaming lack of company adaptation.

13. Mental Health, Addiction, and Holistic Health

• Construction’s high rates of suicide and substance abuse are candidly addressed.
• Both hosts advocate moving beyond talk to actionable programs, creating supportive environments, offering grace to new hires, and leading by example on health and wellness.

  "The whole mental health thing needs to be just like any other process we have for bettering our people... are they better today at home now than a year ago? 100% of the time, yes." —Nate [86:17]

14. The Big Picture: Infrastructure, Competition & Industry Mindset

• US infrastructure is compared unfavorably to other nations; investment in people and technology cited as the only way forward.
• Competition is reframed: contractors should see each other as facing common challenges, not just as adversaries.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the superficiality of many industry safety programs:

"We're not going to talk about alcoholism, poor nutrition, the reality of the hours. We just stretch and flex." —Aaron [00:00]

On starting a construction company:

"Just take your best guess, do the job, then compare at the end... That's how everybody's done it." —Aaron [10:19]

On the 2008 crash:

"I just downsized this thing to virtually nothing and waited it out... a guy looked at my [Cat] equipment and wrote me a check for everything but one crew." —Nate [17:00]

On loyalty and family:

"My wife turns to me... I want you to go quit your job tomorrow. This isn't you, you need to be you." —Nate [29:09]

On hiring 'anyone':

"If you have a pulse and pass a drug screen, you'll give us 50% of what we need. Come fill the spot." —Nate [35:52]

On building support systems for employees:

"CARE is professional counseling, AID is employee loans, RISE for education. What I did informally, we're doing at scale now." —Nate [43:12–44:25]

On turnover:

"From the pandemic until a year ago... we were losing 35% of our employees a month. Now it's 8% for new hires, 2% for long-term." —Nate [46:31–47:25]

On the industry’s need to evolve:

"If you can't get the people you need to do the work, you are failing when it comes to being competitive." —Aaron [49:24]

On the role of leadership:

"It always comes back to leadership. I've seen a lot of companies try social media, but you can tell when leadership is bought in." —Aaron [119:14]

On substance abuse in construction:

"Suicide: 3.5x any other industry; opioid overdose: 7x. Because we have a low barrier of entry. Let's use our companies as funnels to make people better." —Nate [90:39]

On US infrastructure:

"We can talk all day about AI... but as long as humans need to live, our economy depends on infrastructure. And our infrastructure depends on people and companies that build and maintain it." —Aaron [66:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Critique of Construction Wellness: [00:00 – 01:42]
• Self-Performance vs Subcontracting: [01:42 – 03:40]
• Nate’s Start in the Industry: [04:07 – 06:41]
• First Big Government Job: [06:41 – 08:57]
• Coping with 2008 Crash: [16:24 – 20:36]
• Rebuilding & Wife’s Influence: [25:58 – 29:09]
• Public vs Private Work / Utah Market: [31:51 – 33:25]
• Pandemic Hiring/Turnover Crisis: [35:41 – 36:26]
• Director of Safety/Employee Experience & Impact: [37:00 – 47:25]
• The 'Log' Feedback System: [44:27 – 47:41]
• Discussion on Company Entitlement & Retention: [47:41 – 50:28]
• Apprenticeship/Training Programs: [52:40 – 56:44]
• Generational Shifts, Attitudes, and Leadership: [59:34 – 66:36]
• Mental Health and Holistic Health Approach: [97:19 – 102:53]
• Taking Action vs Just Talking: [83:21 – 85:00]
• US Infrastructure, Contractor Mindset: [62:47 – 67:30]
• Vulnerability and the Role of Leaders: [114:35 – 121:46]
• Growth and Future Initiatives: [122:28 – 124:26]
• Landmark on Social Media: [125:05]

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Landmark Excavating’s story is about resilience in the face of adversity, deeply grounded leadership, and executing a people-first strategy—especially amid historic hiring and cultural challenges.
• Proactive investment in employees’ mental health, financial stability, and professional growth pays off in retention, culture, and business outcomes.
• The construction industry is at a critical juncture: only by adapting, embracing new thinking, and valuing people holistically—from wellness to opportunity—will it sustain and elevate America’s infrastructure.
• Social media and authentic leadership are non-negotiables for company visibility and modern recruitment.

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Connect with Landmark Excavating:

Instagram: @Landmark.exe

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For anyone in construction—whether business owner, aspiring operator, or simply interested in industry transformation—this episode offers candid, real-world wisdom you won’t find in standard textbooks.

Transcript

[Aaron]

Like that, the health and wellness thing, it needs to become a priority in construction. I cannot believe. And that's why, like the whole stretch and flex thing I think is a joke. Like, and I know it's standard now and this and that. Oh, you know, but it's like, it's just for show. Like, this is theatrics. This is totally theatric. And it's not. Stretching is good if you're doing all these other things. But we're not going to talk about any of those other things. Like, it's fine if you want to be an alcoholic, no problem. You want to be super overweight, no problem. And are you overweight because of the hours you're working and because you're not able to then get the proper nutrients in you? And this and that? Yes, but we're not going to talk about that. We're just going to stretch and flex. When you lay it out, you're like, that's kind of silly. Like, that's a little ridiculous. But. And, and again, I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm, I'm all for it. If we're approaching things holistically, we're just not. We're picking and choosing based on. We're letting all these things kind of dictate what we can pick and choose based on. What's okay. What's. What's okay. But you go to a football team, they're like, the performance of that team depends on the physical performance of their people.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

So they're focused on the physical performance of their people and they're making sure their people are good to go. Construction, it depends upon the physical performance of people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Even operators. It's still physical and you still have to be focused. And are you, can you be more focused and more diligent if you're healthier? 100%. It's very physical, but we don't talk about that. It's like, how is a whole industry built on people's bodies and focus and the physical health and well being of individuals? How is a whole industry built upon that? Not talking at all about that. There's a lot of guys. I just saw an article yesterday about Texas, like how more contractors are self performing more work. It was briefly about the techstop market and how a lot of these big contractors started to sub out more work years ago. But now they're coming back to self performing more work. And I think self performing is very advantageous when it comes to just control. Control owning your destiny.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

You like the schedule is yours.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Which is a big deal.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Really big deal. Because, like, concrete, you can go get the subgrade in. For a road, for example, you can't pave it until the curbs in.

[Nate]

Critical path.

[Aaron]

It's a critical path. So it's. The concrete guy can't show up for a week.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You can't do anything about it.

[Randy]

Yeah, it's. It's.

[Nate]

It's been. It's been interesting. And with it being a sister company, that's been interesting too. But, I mean, there's some advantages and some disadvantages, so.

[Aaron]

Yeah, so it's. It's. You kept the company branded separately.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Nate]

Kept it separate because we want them to be able to fill their voids of work with our competitors, you know?

[Aaron]

Yep.

[Nate]

So there is. There is a veil there.

[Randy]

And.

[Nate]

But it's. Overall, it's been good, and I feel like we're figuring some stuff out. Sure. But concrete's tough.

[Aaron]

It's really tough. It's super tough. I mean, it's just. It's a. It's a brutal business, but it's necessary.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, it's. It's on every job everywhere. It's the most used building material in human history.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So stuff is. It's pretty valuable. How did you get going in the first place?

[Nate]

Oh, man. Fell into it. So I grew up, like, on a farm, you know, running equipment. Hard manual labor.

[Aaron]

In Utah.

[Nate]

In Utah. Just working with my dad and my dad's uncle, who he worked for, and then my uncle on the other side of the family, he was a farmer. So I loved building things. I loved running the equipment the most, especially when you're in, like, an atmosphere where you' doing a lot of manual labor, of course, you want to be in the machine, and the machines are cool.

[Aaron]

And especially as a kid.

[Randy]

Yeah, that's.

[Nate]

That's how we are.

[Randy]

Holy grail. Yeah.

[Nate]

So I. I got back from my mission, and I had this idea that, hey, I'm gonna buy some equipment and start moving dirt. So I bought a skid steer and a dump truck.

[Aaron]

You do a mission, what, 18? 19?

[Nate]

Yeah, 19. So n. I got back when I was 21 and so bought the skid steer case. 40 XT.

[Aaron]

Nice.

[Nate]

Yeah, it was awesome. GMC bobtail dump truck.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

And just started moving dirt for. I had a couple buddies that were like, landscape contractors, so started moving dirt for them. I named the company Landmark Excavating because my dad's a real estate broker and his company is Landmark Real Estate. So I'm like, Since.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So just. That was in 2003.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

Just started doing that and moved to St. George to go to school. Got married, moved to St. George, got. Had no work. Noon. No one down there.

[Randy]

Sure.

[Nate]

Got a contract with a big developer to grade off lots and pick up construction garbage. So that's what I would do.

[Aaron]

How'd you get the contract?

[Nate]

Just went and talk to the guy in charge. Hey, I'm here. I just showed up. I'm new in town, so I think I had like some like classified ads too.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

Which I'll tell a story about that. But anyways. Yeah. Grading off lots, removing excess dirt, picking up lumber, dumping it in dumpsters. That was what I did. So then my first government contract was the BLM reached out to me. They're like, hey, we've got this job. It's out on the Arizona strip.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Nate]

It's like loading material from this wash and then hauling it up to this dirt air strip. And do you want to bid it? Yeah, of course.

[Aaron]

Sign me up.

[Nate]

So I drive out there. If you were to go to Mesquite and then like leave Mesquite and drive on a dirt road for about an hour and a half east into the middle of nowhere. That's where this job was.

[Aaron]

It's a, that's a, that's a like off the map part of the country. I feel like, yes, every time I go through Mesquite, I'm like, I've never thought about this place ever. There's not a lot going on out here, but yeah, just a little bit.

[Nate]

Of gambling and a lot of heat.

[Aaron]

More than a little bit of gambling. There's gambling everywhere.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So I drive out there like it took me forever to even find the site. And I check it out and I go home. I called one of my mentors and he's like, yeah, you know, this is what you need to do. So I like turn in the bid. It was, I think it was like over $200 a yard to move this material, which I thought was just crazy.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So I turn it in, it's an eleven thousand dollar contract and I get the job. And so then I'm like, well, you know, work plan. How am I going to do this? So I call up my dad and he's like, I'm in. So we rented another truck.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

We take the skid steer and two dump trucks out there in the middle of the desert and. And we just start working. And so we work all day, all night. We're like halfway through the Next day we're like, well, what should we do? Let's just keep going. So we get to this point where it's like, okay, we can either finish the job and like, maybe barely have enough fuel to get back or, or we just pause, drive back to Mesquite, get more fuel, come back and finish. Yeah, let's go for it. So we went for it, and then we just coasted into Mesquite and Yeah. Finished the job.

[Aaron]

Did you make money on that job?

[Nate]

Yeah, yeah, we made really good money. So we, we worked without sleeping for like two and a half days.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We get back to my house and like, I'm just totally wasted. My dad showers and he's like, see you guys later. He drives home to Salt Lake. He's a wild man.

[Aaron]

How'd you figure out how to put like. Like bid the job, just kind of make it up?

[Nate]

Yeah, I just made it up back then. I figured, like, I, I mean, everything I was doing back then was like, tnm hourly rates. Like, I wasn't really into bidding.

[Randy]

Sure.

[Nate]

So, yeah, I had a really good mentor. He gave me some advice. And how did you find the mentor? Family friend.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

His name's Ken Condi, owner of Condi Construction.

[Aaron]

I've heard of that.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

They're based out of Springville, where, Where I grew up.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I asked these questions because a lot of people, like, even just the other day, people ask. I don't know why people ask me advice when it comes to earth moving businesses. And I, I always previs up you're an expert. I'm not the guy to talk to. I promise you. I'm not the guy. But I feel like people over complicate things a little bit.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, they, like, how do I get more work? It's like, go talk to people. Ask me. Yeah, talk to people. I don't know. Like, it's not that. It's not that difficult. Like, it, it's. Or like, how do I figure out how to bid a job? Like, I don't know, like, take your best guess, do the job, and then. Yeah, and, and, and, and then compare at the end and ignite that. Now that you have real numbers, compare them to the numbers you put on it and then use that information to bid the next one better. Like.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

That's kind of how it works. That's how everybody's done it. I don't, I don't know a single person that's had this, like, playbook on how to start a construction company. Oh, I've just ran the playbook or I've had. I had like the perfect guy to show me everything. It's like, no, I've just figured it out. Which I feel like is. That's just the common. That's why I love this world, is because you. You. There's.

[Randy]

You.

[Aaron]

You just have to figure it out.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In a lot of ways. Now, there's not as much margin for error nowadays.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because of insurance and bonding and requirements and lawyers and environmental and you can go down the list, but it still is. I mean, I know, I know guys still starting today. And that's how they're doing it. Like, a friend of mine, he's over in Heber.

[Nate]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Friend Bridger. Snow. Not too far from. From you. And he's like, textbook example of this. He's in his early 20s, he's running a crew. He's kicking ass. And that's all he's done is like, he's just worked and he's just figured it out. There you go.

[Nate]

That's what I love about it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Just show up, go to work, you know, Work hard, build something.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Go home at night.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's cool. It's cool. Your dad was down to help out too. That's.

[Randy]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

That's pretty neat.

[Nate]

He's still that way, is he?

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate]

He, like, often we'll be in a meeting and people will be looking outside like, what the heck? Oh, that's. My daddy's just fertilizing the lawn now. That's. That's one of his things.

[Randy]

He's.

[Nate]

Yeah, he's an old farmer.

[Aaron]

How old is he?

[Nate]

He's 67.

[Aaron]

Okay. Yeah, I feel like that. That too. When you. When you get to that stage in life, you just don't give a. Anymore about what people think.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

For better, for worse. Like, you just do whatever you want.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And if. And if you're smart enough, like, at our age, you're just like.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

That's just what they do.

[Nate]

That's. That's why the grass is so green. Because he does that.

[Aaron]

Cracks me up.

[Nate]

Comes around every few months.

[Aaron]

So you. You got. You got going and then you just go down this path.

[Nate]

Yeah. So that. I was down at School in St. George for a couple semesters and then left St. George, went back to Utah County.

[Aaron]

So you were doing work while in school?

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate]

Night school. Working during the day.

[Aaron]

Oh, wow.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Newly married. Just trying to figure it out.

[Aaron]

Did you finish school?

[Nate]

No. No. So went back to Utah County, Went to school there. It's kind of the same thing. School at night, work during the day. And then got to the point where I was just too busy.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And I regret it. I wish that I would have, like, had a more solid plan and really got into construction management and plowed through it and finished. But it is what it is.

[Aaron]

It's worked out okay for you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So like I said, my dad, he owns a real estate company and so he was doing real estate development. And I got my real estate license as well at that same time while I was moving dirt and then was helping him on the development side of things. And, uh, it was like, well, we're having a hard time finding contractors to do this and that. Like, I saw the numbers. I'm like, well, I could do that.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So hired some guys and just started from there. Like, it was power, trench and water services in the beginning. And then it grew to like, okay, I'm gonna like. My first full size machine was a 315.

[Aaron]

Oh, nice.

[Nate]

Yeah, I bought a 315 excavator from Wheeler and Yeah. Did like a small phase of a subdivision.

[Aaron]

Was that the first time you'd hired people?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

How'd you find people to hire?

[Nate]

I. How did I find my first guys? I think they were guys that were just working for, like, one of the contractors that I was working around. And it wasn't like I poached them.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

But it. Yeah, it was a mutual agreement relationship. Like, hey, these guys should come work for you.

[Randy]

Sure.

[Nate]

They're better fit for you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So they came on board and then my mentor was like, hey, we got this contract in Bullhead City. We're going to be down there for two years. Why don't you come and do sewer laterals for us?

[Aaron]

Nice.

[Nate]

So we went down there for. We were down there for about 18 months. So I moved my whole operation down there.

[Aaron]

Just doing pseudo laterals.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For 18 months.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's a lot of laterals.

[Nate]

It was.

[Aaron]

It was a big development, whatever it was.

[Nate]

Well, it was. It was installing a sewer system in Bullhead City. They were all on septics.

[Aaron]

Wow. Okay, I see.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

This was this. There were two phases of it. Condi got the first phase and then they. When they got the second phase, that's when I came in.

[Randy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Nate]

So it was sewer laterals, connections, septic tank abandonment.

[Aaron]

Sweet.

[Nate]

And then started hiring more guys in Utah county and building another crew there. And before we knew it, I had like 40 employees, maybe 50 employees. And then 2008 hit.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate]

It's like, oh. So that was about the same time that Bullhead ended. So that hurt because that was just like steady work. We had some. We had done a couple U.org projects and we had just gotten into bonding work. So it was like, okay, we. This will still work. It will be okay. And I was going to pre bids and bid openings with like 40 other contractors.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

It was insane.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And so I don't know what it was. I somehow I knew what I was doing because I was like, man, I have good credit. I have a good reputation. Like, I'm going to just downsize this thing to virtually nothing and wait this thing out. So had a contact out of Northern Idaho who heard about my fleet of. Of equipment. This is a testimony for Caterpillar. It was all like nice cat equipment. He flew down, looked at what I had and wrote me a check for everything except for I kept enough for one crew.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Nate]

And it was gone.

[Randy]

Wow.

[Nate]

So, God, I mean, I had equity and stuff and I was upside down and stuff and it all kind of washed out.

[Aaron]

No. I think, I think one of the most important organizations within the construction industry is Caterpillar Finance.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, I could not give Caterpillar Finance more credit for starting more just straight up American businesses. I mean, it's insane what they'll give you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like I, I mean the difference between buying a pickup truck versus buying a Caterpillar machine because I bought skits here years ago now. It was like, this is it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, you guys, you just like, I feel like you just pick the machine up. Like I don't even need to sign side for you. We'll just send it to you. Like it's the most. And it's not a criticism. Like it's, it's great. Like that's how I wish buying a pickup truck was.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like buying a pickup trucks, like it's a disaster. Or God forbid you go buy a house, whatever that is. Like, yo. But you could go buy whatever you want from Caterpillar and no questions asked.

[Randy]

Like. Yeah.

[Nate]

Do you think it's. They know what they've got, you know? Yeah, it's.

[Aaron]

It's working out for them. But there's so many people that I know. Like, I mean, without that, they wouldn't have been able to. To grow nearly how they've grown.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But that, that's. And sitting here now in 2025, it's more matter of fact. But at the time, that's still probably like among the worst things that's happened to you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Having To, I mean, let that many people go.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And like, it's the only way through it, like, that's the hardest thing about business is that especially in early in business. I. Maybe not even early. Maybe I'm just lying to myself by saying it's just early in business. I think it's throughout businesses you can only avoid so many mistakes, but you are going to. There. There are mistakes that will be made all over the place. And unfortunately, those mistakes often have consequences in the form of people and that, like, it's like, if stuff happens to me, it's fine. I'm good. Like, this is what I signed up for. But that when you're hurting other people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's when it really sucks because of your decision making, other people are getting hurt. Like, and even if it's out of your. Like, yeah, 2008, like, that was the perfect storm, but you're still the guy. And to be in that position, it.

[Randy]

It.

[Aaron]

It sucks. I've been there. I've made those dumb decisions.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate]

Was such an interesting process because, I mean, it's cliche, but. Because I'll say, I'm so glad that I went through it, you know, and. Yeah, I think now you are.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Because I've learned. Right. But just to go through that and learn those lessons at such a young age, I mean, I would way rather learn those lessons in my mid-20s than in my mid-40s, where. Where I am now.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So. But it was tough with the people. Some of them, I got to see their. Their true colors. And so that was a learning experience as well, because I had, like, some of my people, I had negotiated like, hey, can't afford to keep you on at salary, but I've negotiated this work like, hey, let's put on our boots. Let's go to work. Let's figure out how to get through it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And some of them were like, no, sure. That's. That's not me.

[Randy]

Yeah. What?

[Nate]

I. I thought we were in this together, but yeah.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And then others were extremely loyal.

[Aaron]

Well, it. Yeah, it goes both ways.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You really do see what you got. Yeah, it's. It's. I've. I've thought a lot about this too, because I. I started our business at my 23rd birthday.

[Nate]

Okay.

[Aaron]

23. So it's a little. A little later, but not. Not by much. And then we grew, grew, grew, and just made some stupid financial decisions that. Just dumb. Just really dumb shit. But I look at it now, and I'm not there yet where I'm like, oh, that was cheap. But it's like one day that's going to be really cheap in the grand scheme of things. And I'm so glad I did that in my 20s.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like I've touched that stove. I know it's hot. I don't need to go touch it again. Like, I'm good to go, man. So now it's like, it doesn't make the interim any more fun, but now I'm like, I'm glad I did that. And going forward I'll just be more and more glad I did that because I think those lessons will then be with me, I mean, forever. Like I've got that forever. I have that education.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

I'm not forgetting them. No. Especially the stuff that really hurts like that. That doesn't go away.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

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[Nate]

Yep, just a few guys. And we like cranked away for another. It was probably 12 to to 18 months on some as a subcontractor, on some public work. And then when those projects were done it was like, okay, we're just like, there's nothing else right now. So laid off that last crew and started to lay low and work on a few other things. Um, my mentor, he had me come, like he would call me, hey, come bid a job here. And so I would go spend some time bidding and doing that kind of stuff. And then he was like, I, I actually, I won a job for him and it was the weirdest thing. Like went into his office, like turned everything over, like, here you go, have fun. And then he called me back the next day. And was like, why don't you just come to work for us? And I was like, well, I don't. I don't know. Like, I. That. That hasn't really been me, but ultimately, I felt like I needed to do it, so went to work for him. And then, like, two years later, my wife was like, hey, it's time for you to be doing your own thing again. I was like, really having fun, you know, Works great.

[Aaron]

Making good money.

[Nate]

Making good money. Like, we had landed some awesome contracts. We had a big central Utah water project going on at the time. And so I was like, well, okay. So ultimately, I didn't know what I was going to. To do. Like, I knew I wanted to be in construction, but thought maybe real estate was the way I should go, because I could feel the real estate market coming back and had a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth for construction, like, in terms of operating the whole thing, because it was so hard, what I had gone through. And as soon as the word got out that. That I was. That I was leaving the company that I was with, my. The guys that were loyal immediately called me and was like, hey, we want to come back to work for you. Okay. So fired Landmark back up. Like, it was never shut down, but just wasn't really operating. Fired it back up and landed some subcontract work at first, and then more developments, then more public work, and now here we are.

[Aaron]

Wow. So this was like 2011.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Yeah, 2011. 2012. And then. So from then, we went from zero to, you know, over. Over 200.

[Aaron]

That's crazy.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's really wild.

[Nate]

A lot of growth.

[Aaron]

The. The thing about going back to people asking how to get work, the subcontractor stuff is. Is huge as well.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because every bigger. Every. Every contractor that's bigger than you needs subcontractors for everything. And like you said, even when you started, you were cleaning up lots. Like, there's always something that somebody needs help with, and if you do the stuff no one else wants to do.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

There's a lot of opportunity there.

[Nate]

Go do it and do it well.

[Aaron]

And do it well.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Nate]

And make the general just love you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And go to work for who you want to be. Right.

[Aaron]

But it's not. It's not that hard. You just. You just show up every day.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

On time.

[Aaron]

On time. And you just do the job they've asked you to do.

[Randy]

Mm.

[Aaron]

That's kind of it.

[Nate]

The bar is pretty low these days.

[Aaron]

You know, it's really not that much more. Especially when it comes to being a subcontractor. It's like, just do what you're supposed to do, and you'll be good to go. That's fascinating. That's really interesting. So is your wife that said, hey.

[Nate]

Yeah, get back out there.

[Randy]

Huh?

[Nate]

Yeah, it was her.

[Randy]

She.

[Nate]

Yeah, she. Like, it was. It was totally unexpected. Like, we were. We were driving back from a long weekend trip. It was on Memorial Day, actually. We were coming back from Lake Powell, and she turns to me and she goes, I want you to go in, and I want you to quit your job tomorrow.

[Randy]

Wow.

[Nate]

And I was like, what? She's like, this isn't you, and you need to go, and you need to be you.

[Randy]

Wow.

[Nate]

So it was interesting that she saw something that I didn't see.

[Aaron]

That's extraordinary.

[Randy]

Yeah. Huh.

[Nate]

Especially for a wife, you know.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

Like.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Nervous about.

[Aaron]

Well, and you. At this point, you have young kids.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate]

At that point.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I would add three kids.

[Aaron]

Three. Yeah. So three young girls.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

And so there's a lot. Like, the risk is not nothing. It's not like you and her in an apartment.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

A small apartment.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Some cheap furniture.

[Nate]

No. There.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

It was. It was everything.

[Aaron]

That's fascinating. That's really something. It is interesting, though. Like, if you are built to go build stuff, like, I've just fully accepted for better, for worse. There's a lot of days where it's like, man, I wish I could just work Monday through Friday.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then be. Just watch some football on the weekend and then go back to work Monday. Like that. That's a really nice lifestyle. It's really nice. I. I envy it. A lot of days. But it's just like. But that's just not the program I'm on.

[Randy]

That's not you.

[Aaron]

It's just. It's just not. It's not it. And it doesn't make it any easier to know that. But. But it does in some ways, to know. It's like, this is just the program I'm on.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I feel like I struggled with that more like, as I was younger. And now that I'm older in my career, I. I really understand, because I'll have those same thoughts. Sure would be nice. You know, it's Saturday, Sunday. Not be thinking about work, not be doing work.

[Randy]

Sure.

[Nate]

But it's just not me. And I know that I wouldn't be happy any other way.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And my wife saw that, and that's why I am where I am.

[Aaron]

Married. The right woman.

[Nate]

I did that's for sure.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

See you, you, you. And then word just got out naturally. It's a pretty small world.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In the, at the end of the.

[Nate]

Day, so call you.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And said, all right, let's go.

[Nate]

Yeah, let's, let's do it. So, yeah, just a lot of private development stuff in the beginning and then got bonding capacity back up where it needed to be and started to chip away at public work. And.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So we, we really want to be 50 private work. 50 public work. Try to stay well balanced. And it's, it's ebbed and flowed. You know, this, this past year it's been pretty heavy in the private stuff because it's been so busy.

[Aaron]

Really.

[Nate]

Public is going crazy right now.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And Utah, we were talking this morning. I mean, Utah is a crazy market from both public and private. Like the amount, even whenever I go to Utah, even just like the road construction, it's like. And even. Just the money U DOT has, it's like, where does all this money come from?

[Nate]

Yeah, there's, there's no construction going on. Road construction here in Tennessee.

[Aaron]

Tennessee's budget is a disaster. Yeah, it's. It's crazy. Like, even.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The whole Tennessee thing, like, see that stadium down the road that they're building that is going to cost taxpayers a billion dollars in interest. A billion dollars in interest. So we can do that kind of stuff. But roads, you're gonna have to wait on that. But you go, you go somewhere even like Arizona, like, like a.u. like some of these programs that they run, they're extraordinary.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like their roads are just. I go, I go to Utah. It's just like, this is incredible how many highway. Like these are really nice, functional highways. And I get it. There's the, there's also like the benefit of planning a city more effectively.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's a newer, it's newer. I get that. But it's like every highway is under construction in Utah. Every time I go there.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To grow it, to make it even better. Which is.

[Nate]

They're forward thinking.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then, and then you have all of the people moving to Utah, which is then just blowing up the private market.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

And it's just construction everywhere.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

It's. It's wild. I mean, when, when the pandemic hit, the, the feelings that I had were like, oh man, 2008, like I'm, I'm feeling this. We had like three contracts within like two days. Call and pause and. But then within a week later, everyone was like, no go yeah. And then it just went berserk.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

It was so wild.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, there was a contractor I knew in the Southeast. I mean, they were running like three, 400 guys, maybe even more. I mean, 500. I don't know what it was, but it was all for one developer.

[Nate]

Holy cow.

[Aaron]

And the developer, 2020, just said, hey, we're just gonna stop. And then the whole company shut down for then like four weeks or whatever. It was six weeks. And then like eight weeks later, they're hiring more people. Like, they're busier than they were before. It's just like, what just happened? It was in a, in a few month period. They went from like, yep, the company's gonna get shut down to we have more backlog than we've ever had before.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

In just this little window. It's like. And at the time, I, I was just looking around, like, what is happening? How is this happening? This is, this is just wild. So weird. So weird. So weird. But you had these, just these massive influxes of people into Florida, Carolinas, Tennessee, Georgia, Utah, Arizona, Idaho. Idaho, especially Idaho's.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Just blown up. Boise.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Boise was right there with us or leading the way.

[Randy]

Right. Yeah.

[Nate]

It was nuts.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

At that time, like, people, if we want to talk about people, it became a real problem. Like, you have a pulse. You can pass a drug screen.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

You'll give us 50% of what we need.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

Come fill the spot.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

Let's, let's go.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So it was, it was so difficult to find people. It was so difficult to keep people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We were lucky if like 3 out of the 10 people we hired would stay on board for longer than a couple days because there was, there wasn't anything else going on, you know, and so people needed work and we were hiring like crazy.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So it was like, oh, yeah, you've worked fast food. Yep. You're qualified. Come. Yeah, try it.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You show them a picture of like a shovel. Do you know what this is to shovel? Oh, you're hired.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nate]

And, and it's, it's one of those things where like, oh, yeah, I see construction workers. That looks cool. I'd like to do it. Oh, this is really hard work.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's July. Yeah, I'm good.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I'm going to go to the Amazon warehouse down the street.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Are there consequences to hiring like that?

[Nate]

Yes, yes. Like, I don't know. I, I look back and it's like, what could we have done better or different? I'm sure there's a lot of things that we could have done better and different, but it worked out like we got through it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

But the, the program that we're running now is amazing because of the person that we got running it. So we have an employee experience guy.

[Aaron]

Oh, really?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Okay. So he's our director of safety and employee experience.

[Aaron]

Yeah. What's his name?

[Nate]

Jake.

[Aaron]

Jake.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I've talked to Jake.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Y.

[Nate]

So there's probably not many people out there like Jake that have such a passion for safety and construction. And also like, the, The. The essence of human beings. Like, he just loves people. And so it was.

[Aaron]

Which is rare in construction. Yes. There's a lot of very.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Cynical people in the construction industry about people.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate]

And like, the way he approaches safety, too, in. In that same avenue.

[Aaron]

Well, there's a lot of cynical people in safety in the construction industry, too. Like, you're a child. We're going to treat you like a child.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Because you just. I just can't trust you. And. Which I think is the worst approach to safety ever.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

But that's a majority, I would say that's like the, The. The main thesis of safety is just treat everybody like children and we're good to go. But I feel like the best safety programs are led by somebody like that. That it's. It's out of, like, a legitimate sense of care for people.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And you can tell the difference.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

It's very, like, it's so obvious. And they, the program, they kind of look similar because it's all kind of the same rules and this and that, same principles, but they feel very different. And you can, you can tell you, like, you can. You can just feel the difference.

[Randy]

Yeah. He.

[Nate]

You talk with Jake and you're like, this is a genuine guy.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yep.

[Nate]

Yeah, I get it. And I mean, we. We see it from our employees. So, like, I, I feel like. I feel like the program that I was running was landmark Family. You know, we're family. Like, that's what we care about first. But in order to have a family, the family has to be supported.

[Randy]

Right.

[Nate]

The bills have to be paid, food has to be put on the table, perform. We have to be profitable. So, like, bringing him on, what it has, what it. What it's allowed me to do is really focus on the business and being profitable. And he doesn't worry about that stuff. He worries about the people and keeping them safe and making sure that their experience is what it should be.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And so all of a sudden, like, the. I. I Guess what it comes down to is we had, we had grown beyond what I was able to do, like, what I was able to handle by focusing on, on both things.

[Randy]

Right.

[Nate]

So within the first week, he comes to me and he's like, hey, do you know that we have two homeless people working for us? They do not have homes. And I'm going to take care of this if you're okay with it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

He goes and he takes care of it. He has what, what he's done is he's formalized, like, everything that, that I was doing in, like, an informal way, just as an owner, like, yeah, you need a loan. Okay, we'll take care of this.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

You, you need help with this, we'll take care of it.

[Aaron]

But once, once you have hundreds of people, you have to systematize that.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And that, that doesn't make it any less special. Like, I read a book recently, this year, called Unreasonable Hospitality.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Aaron]

I could not recommend it more. Like, I do a lot of reading and like, you know, 1 in 10 books or, like 1 in 20 books, like, man, that is something else. But it's all about this guy who was a restaurateur in New York City and how they built, like, some of the world's best restaurants. But, you know, it's, it's a really good book because they started as not a very good restaurant. And then it shows the whole process. And, like, you're tuning kind of bigger things at first, like the menu, like, and then you start to. The tuning gets finer and finer and finer and finer and finer. So they would give people these, these, these, like, custom treat bags every after, after when they, when they were leaving the restaurant. And I'm not doing a very good job explaining what they were, but he. We'd sometimes, then we'd start to systematize it because we, we were doing it so often that we're like, well, it's just, it's more effective if we just prepare these in advance because we know we're going to be giving them out.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

And then he was like, well, then does that make it any that, does that make it less special? Since we were, like, planning for it now and we're systematizing it. But he's like, no, it still means just as much to each individual person. But to create, to, to do that at scale, you have to have a system.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

To do it in the first place, which I think is huge. Like, I, I, I, I. Especially when you're dealing with hundreds of people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You have to have A structure to caring for people. It doesn't just. At that point, it doesn't just happen anymore because you can't physically. You cannot physically. If you spent all day just calling people even, or visiting job sites all day, every day, you still couldn't get to your whole company enough to influence it like, like you used to. It just doesn't physically work.

[Nate]

Yeah, that's, that's what he's done. He loves acronyms, so he's, he's taken our programs and he's created these. These three acronyms. We have the CARE program, which is. We offer professional counseling for those that are in need, whether it be stuff that's going on at home with their spouse, whether it's addiction recovery, whether it's other mental health issues. The AID program, which is an employee loan program, they fill out an application. You know, we're not able to accept every loan, but they go through an underwriting process. Sure. And then the, the last program is the Rise program, which is. He's formalized, like, we want to invest in your education. Like, if you want to go and get additional certificates, if you want to go back to school, like, you want to get your cdl, we'll. We'll participate in that. You commit to us, we commit to you. So it's been awesome that he's been able to systematize, like, all of the stuff that I was doing as an owner before that. We just. We can't do it if it's not organized now.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's fantastic.

[Nate]

That's.

[Aaron]

That's really good.

[Nate]

One of the other things that he's done is, which I think has really helped with our. Our employee retention is he's put in place this log program where every employee and every manager is required to fill out a log every Friday, the end of every work week. And this log, it's just like three questions, and it just checks in on, like, how are you feeling about job site safety? How are you feeling about your manager? And how are you feeling about your own, like, mental and emotional health? And they just, they rate it, like, on a scale from 1 to 5 or 0 to 5, I guess. And then all these logs come in and he, they, they get. If there's low scores, they get pinged to him and he's able to, to read through them and, and then check in with those employees.

[Aaron]

How, how do you administer that?

[Nate]

Through Google forms.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

Yeah, it's just a form.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And we use it through hcss, so that's all they have it with. All their other.

[Aaron]

Through heavy job.

[Randy]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Nate]

It's through all of their other paperwork.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Nate]

It's. It's crazy. Like what? Like the messages that have come in that we've been able to field immediately, like, hey, we need to check on this person, or there's something going on with this employee and their manager because they're, they're not connecting, you know, so from like, Jake's been with me for a year and a half now. In the last 12 months, our turnover has gone from. We break it up like in new hires, so we call a new hire zero to six months and then everyone else. Six plus months. So our zero to six months from like the pandemic until like a year ago, we were losing like 35 of our employees a month.

[Aaron]

Oh, that's monthly.

[Nate]

Month.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Woof. I was gonna say 35 overall. I was like, that's not that bad.

[Nate]

Yeah, that's not bad. But monthly. That's insane. That is so. I mean, it's.

[Aaron]

You're turning over a third.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Every single.

[Nate]

And you have to sort through that because, you know, you get a lot of guys that you hire and then they show up for a day or whatever.

[Aaron]

Probably majority of that's in the first week.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

First few days. But third. Yeah, it was like 35% a month of those. And for our six plus months, it was like 8%. So that's more in line with probably industry averages.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Where we're at today, zero to six months, we're losing 8%.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Holy smokes.

[Nate]

Six plus months, we're losing 2%.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Nate]

So it's like, okay, it's working. Like all of these, all of these, like, systems that we've been putting in place, like, yeah, employees are feeling heard, they have support. It's working.

[Aaron]

But. And it's important too, like, the whole turnover thing is a really big deal because it's really expensive.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

I think companies talk about it and how expensive it is and everybody knows it, but then it's like turnover still horrendous. I mean, it's in. Per person. In the construction industry, every, Every person's generating between, I don't know, 350, $500,000 in revenue.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then if that's like, whatever your margin is, like, that's, that's, that's a lot of income per person and, and a lot of, of value to the business per every person at that company. And if you're turning even one person over, like, there's a cost to that, a significant Cost and. Yeah, huge cost. But then if you're, if you're not, then, if, but, but you have to go first. Like, you have to make the investment first. Then, then they stick around, which then makes the business better, which then generates more income.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

To then do more, to invest further in people, which then makes people better, which then makes the business better. And around and around you go. But I like. The more I've reflected upon this, the more I just hate the entitlement that businesses have. The more I think about, like, it. Businesses are so entitled. So entitled. Especially the previous generation, especially the boomer generation. I'm. And I'm going after the baby boomers because they've, they've screwed up a lot of things for people like me and the, in the, the upcoming generation. But they're even, even saying, like, people just don't want to work anymore.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like that, that, that's. I think that's a very entitled statement. So it's. Oh, so it's, it's 100% the workforce's fault. It's not your fault at all. Your business is good to go. Your business is perfect. Bullshit. No, it's like people just don't want to work for you.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

What else is it? It's like they just don't want to work for you. You're just not competitive within the current labor market. And you, you can complain about it and, and maybe that's like, oh, it sucks and this and that. It's like, okay, no one has a gun, a gun to your head saying, you need to be a business owner, too. If you don't, if you want to, don't want to become, like, that's what business is, is being competitive. And if you can't get the people you need to do the work, you are failing when it comes to being competitive. And you might still be making money, but that's not the only metric. Like, if you're turning people over left and right, you're just not there. And so I think, like, that's a phenomenal example of. Listen, we, we went first, we invested, we systematized.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Some of this stuff to make it work at a greater scale. And here's the benefit. Our people are winning, our company's winning, our customers are winning, and we're going to keep doing it. Yeah, well, it's not that hard.

[Nate]

What's so funny is, like, the whole employee logs thing, it was pitched to me and I'm like, okay, Jake, great. You know, whatever. That sounds great. And now it's like one of my favorite things that we're doing.

[Aaron]

Yeah. How did we do it before?

[Nate]

Yeah, it's like, oh, and it pro. It just provides a forum for the employees to get off their chest what they otherwise couldn't. Like, they couldn't. It would take a personal meeting with someone from HR to have this type of connection. And now it's done like instantaneously.

[Aaron]

Did you struggle to get people to buy into it initially?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Like, initially it was like, I don't think anyone's even going to read this, so, you know, whatever. And then.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

When you call them up and like, hey, I'm re. I'm reading this. What. What's up?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

Like, oh. So I think it's just like any other system. Like you're, you're asking employees to do something that's like an extra step beyond like shoveling or putting in pipe. But now that they see the benefit of it, they're like, oh yeah, we're bought in.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It's funny, I get messages like that a lot on social media. Like, I don't think you even read your messages, but. And then they'll write their message and then I'll respond because I have nothing better to do. Like I have no family. So Saturdays, of course, I'm reading messages on social media. And then they're always like, wow. Like I, it's, it's funny when they're not expecting a response and then you give them a response, how much further it goes. Because that wasn't the expectation. Like there's. Sometimes you're expecting a response and you don't get it, then there's disappointment. Whereas if you're not expecting it, you can only go up from there. And it's funny how people react when you do, you do respond. So that's, that's interesting.

[Nate]

That's really good. It's been a fun process. He's also, I mean since we're talking about people, he were the first state approved private apprenticeship program in Utah, which, which is amazing. We're using Build with as our platform for that education.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

And so like, not only we've got the people, we're retaining them because we're trying to take care of their, their needs mentally, physically, emotionally. And then we're, we've got a Runway for them to, to excel and to, to grow and better themselves.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So I think, I think that's the other part of it. It'll be fun to see what comes of that.

[Aaron]

Utah is, it's non union.

[Nate]

It's kind of Union isn't there's, it's a mix.

[Aaron]

It's a mix.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I would say it's probably, it's probably more non union than union, but yeah, there are union companies.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. It is interesting how it is a mix, but the, the apprenticeship program, it's, it's, it's not a union thing.

[Nate]

It's not a union.

[Aaron]

A state thing.

[Randy]

Yeah, Yep.

[Aaron]

And what is it? What is, how does it work?

[Nate]

So they enroll and we've got, we've got a curriculum that they follow. We've got two platforms approved right now. Craft labor and then operating engineers. And then we're also putting a leadership platform together that will be like not an apprenticeship. That's more of like a landmark thing. Yeah, but yeah, the, the craft laborer and then the operating engineer.

[Aaron]

So, so they, it's, it's elective.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You can say if I'm an operator I want to be a part of it.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

To learn how to be better.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And then they have mentors too.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

We, we assign mentors within the company to watch over those that, that are in the apprenticeship program.

[Aaron]

And then I have to do a certain amount of training over a certain period of time.

[Randy]

Yep, yep.

[Nate]

Seems like it's like a two year program for the, the craft labor and then like a three year program for the, the operating engineer.

[Aaron]

And it's through the state. Like what does that mean?

[Nate]

So it's accredited through the state. So they will have like, as they complete it, they'll have an actual certificate that hopefully they stay working for us and. Sure. Or they move on to, to someone else and they. Yeah, they have a certificate that they've completed the program.

[Aaron]

But the accreditation, it makes like it, it potentially gives them a greater market value.

[Nate]

I think. So.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Like it's, yeah, it's definitely if, if we had a resume that had that on it, like. Oh, okay, sure. They've been through a program, They've got a certificate.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

See what this guy can do.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's always the thing. Like when we talk to firms outside of construction, what I have to explain to them, like, like I need more training to get in a forklift in a warehouse.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Than I do a 980 cat loader.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Nate]

Yeah, yeah, I get that all the time, you know, from friends. So like what kind of license do your guys have?

[Aaron]

Yeah, I'm like, you don't like, legally speaking, you don't need any training, you don't need any license to run that 70 ton excavator.

[Nate]

And zero. It's extremely dangerous.

[Aaron]

Yes. Extremely dangerous and extremely expensive.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

A million dollar machine. But you don't need a lick of anything to actually get in the cab and make it move. And it's like they almost don't believe it at first. Like, nah, you're joking. You need something. It's like, no, you don't, you don't need anything. Which is crazy. It's, it's, it's, it makes no sense, but.

[Nate]

Well, that's pretty good.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We're fixing it in a way, right?

[Aaron]

It seems like it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think it needs to be fixed.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I don't think that's good. I mean I, I think having, having no rules has allowed a lot of people to get into this world.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That wouldn't otherwise be in it. But the world has changed. That's just not the environment anymore. At the same time, like from the liability standpoint, you can't just have somebody get in your machines and wiggle the sticks anymore.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

And figure it out. Like there, there's just not. And that's still happening in some places, smaller contractors, certain markets, et cetera. But that doesn't, that just doesn't like you can't afford that as a business. Like equipment rolling over for. But that, but that's why, that's also one of my complaints is like the previous generation approaches everything like how it was with them coming up. But it's like you guys came up in a different era. Like you could roll equipment and then just go back to work.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nate]

And it wouldn't be on social media. No evidence.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If you had a room full of old operators, you asked them like who's, who's here to roll the machine? I would bet a majority of the hands in that room would go up. But if you roll a machine nowadays, you have to shut the job down and it's on social media and now you're gonna potentially lose the contract. Like all kinds of bad stuff's gonna happen when I'm not. And I'm not advocating for rolling equipment.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

Even though I've been there. But that's, that's how people came up. Like, that's how you, that's how you learned back in the day. And even to like not that long ago, I mean from like that was still in like the 90s where I mean people were still drinking on the job. In the 90s.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That was like, that wasn't all that uncommon. And now like drinking on the job, it's like that's like black and white.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The biggest. No, no, but it's like, I mean, yeah, I talk. I talk to people like, they're not that old. Like, 40s, 50s. Like.

[Randy]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

Coming up. Everybody's drinking on the job. Like, Fridays. Like, that's all we did. Like that cooler in the bed of the truck. It was just beer. It wasn't water. That's what we did. And it's like, you're not even that old. Like, that's not even that long ago. Just how dramatically things have changed in not even a generation, like a decade, two decades, which then requires a totally different approach to developing people now that we can't roll machines.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I mean, I wonder, like, has. Has. Have the people changed? Like, what you were saying about. With, like, this generation, they just. They just don't want to work. I don't think that's it, but I do think that there's higher standards. Like, we've. We've leveled up. Like, we, We. We want better.

[Randy]

Right.

[Nate]

And so that's the challenge, like, in our generation or in our industry, how. How do we replace this generation with, like, people that, that are educated and want to be in construction? Because a lot of us haven't raised our kids to go into construction.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So.

[Aaron]

Well, it's also, it's also the generation that raised this generation complaining about this generation.

[Nate]

It's like, good point.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Do you guys not look in the mirror? Like, does it. Does anybody else see the irony here? Like, who raised these people? It's like, you. You did it. It's just such a. Like, for somebody that's younger, like, for. For you or me, especially in business, it's just such a. I don't even have patience for that anymore.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I'm like, we don't have time for that. Okay. Like, if that's what you're going to talk about, you guys can go hang out at the bar, at the local association meeting like you've been doing for the past 43 years. But just stay over there. Like, that's fine. You go do your own thing. You can run your business however you want to run your business. But, like, big picture, we don't have time for that. We've got to get on with it here. Like, we, we have a. A. And it's interesting. I used to, whenever I would go abroad, I would come back into the United States and I'd be relieved every time I'd go through customs. Oh, thank God I'm back. I'm back in America. But now now that I'm older, I can kind of see what's really going on. And I've been going to more places around the world, and I come back, and it's such an American thing to say, but it's like, man, I bought into this whole we're the best thing, like, my entire life. And now every trip I go on, I find out that we're not the best. We're not nearly as good as we think we are.

[Nate]

We.

[Aaron]

We can be, right? We have this potential, this. This brilliant system that the country was built upon that's allowed us to get here. But right now, we're riding the coattails of a lot of what's happened in the past. And it's, I think, significantly degraded from what it should be and how it was designed to be. But you go out and I'm in, you know, like, Jakarta a week or two ago, and I'm in the airport in Jakarta. I'm like, all right, Jakarta. Like, how. How good can it be? Most beautiful airport I've ever been in. Gorgeous. Unbelievable, this place. Everything about it spectacular. And then I fly back into the United States, and I land at o'. Hare. And I'm just looking around, I'm like, this place sucks. Like, this. This isn't good. Like, what are we doing here? We're spending. Like, we just had this historic infrastructure bill. Trillion dollars spent on what? Like, what did we get for it? What are. What are we. What are we doing? Like, we're. We're not nearly as good as we think we are. Our infrastructure is a leading indicator of where we're going. Our infrastructure is. Is. Is. Is not where it needs to be. Not even close and not. It's not keeping pace with a lot of. I mean, most every other country I go to now is nicer in a lot of ways, like most every other. Every other. It's not like one place. It's not like just Dubai. I'm like, man, we should be like Dubai. It's like. It's like everywhere I go is better in a lot of different ways. And now does Jakarta have some room to improve? 100 traffic horrendous. So it's. It's not like apples to apples, but.

[Nate]

But there's areas we could level up.

[Aaron]

We have to. Our future, the United States of America is wholly dependent upon the quality of our infrastructure. Our infrastructure and our quality of infrastructure is wholly dependent upon people and companies that build and maintain that infrastructure. And a lot of these companies are over here complaining and just like, ah, you know, it's just. Just not like the good old days. This and that. It's like, what are we doing? Do you guys not see the bigger picture? Like, we've got to get on with it here. We, like, there's a lot of work to do. There's. There's. There's this huge gap. Like, the whole future is on our shoulders right now, and we're sitting around complaining about the next generation. It's like, hey, like, let's look at the bigger picture here. Or even, like, we. We walked into this room talking about competition. Like, even some of the weird little, like, Spats companies will get into. It's like the guy down the street also moving dirt is not the competition.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

Like, you guys are in the same. Same boat. You guys have the same pricing. You're bidding on the same projects. You're driving.

[Nate]

You're.

[Aaron]

You're killing each other. What are we doing here? Like, you're, you're, You're, You're. You're so focused on what's right in front of you, you're not looking up and out, which is, which is why, like, I love pouring more and more energy into companies like, like, like yours that are. Hey, we understand that. We want to be good competition. And we figured out, like, we've been through it like everybody else. The whole turnover thing.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It sucks.

[Nate]

Here's some things you can do.

[Aaron]

There's a better way to do it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you've done it in a year. A year.

[Randy]

I got lucky. Yeah.

[Aaron]

But it's not like you had to go tear the place down to the studs.

[Nate]

No, it's just like, trusting in the process, like, making that investment and trusting in it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I, I don't mean to get on my soapbox. I need to get off no soapbox.

[Nate]

That is interesting. I was talking to. He's the president of, like, one of the largest milling companies in the US and he's. We're just casually talking and he's like, you know that the American roads, like, as an average, they rate, like, from a scale of an A to an F or, like, a D plus. Like, really?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

This is the United States of America, you know?

[Aaron]

Exactly. Yeah. It's. It's like, why. Why aren't. Like, if we really are the best, we should have the best infrastructure. Yeah, That's a direct. A direct correlation there. Like, if we are the best. Like, again, the quality of our economy is dependent upon our infrastructure. Ultimately. Ultimately, you can get away with it for a while, but it's going to catch up with you at some point because you're. We can talk all day about AI this and that. As long as there's human beings on planet Earth, we need to eat, we need to drink, we need to shit, we need somewhere to live. Like, those are the basic conditions that have to be met. How do you meet those conditions? Infrastructure. Yep, that's it. Yeah, that's it. And that's why I'm excited to be here, because it's like. And to work at a construction company, it's like, what more important work could you do for the community?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Pretty essential, then.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Then build the community. I mean, it doesn't get any cooler than that in the grand scheme of things. And that romanticizes it a little bit. Like, it's not as cool when you're doing a. When you're tying into a live sewer line, you know, for example, or something like that. You're probably, like, working in raw sewage. Like, man, I'm really. Yeah, I'm really making the community better here.

[Nate]

But you are.

[Aaron]

Someone has to do it. Yeah, someone has to do it. So, yeah, I'm just like. Like, I spent my 20s, like, being impatient, you know, like, can we get on with it? But it was. It was an impatience born out of, like, arrogance. Like, I know what's going on here. I know best. Kind of like. Like most males in their 20s.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You know best, for sure. Yeah. I, like, what are these old guys doing? Like, I. I have all the answers. And not that I'm, like, old, but now going into my 30s, it's like, all right, I don't know if I was. I don't know if my urgency was misplaced, but, like, how I got there was misplaced. It's. It's not. I'm still. I'm. I'm, like, getting back to that urgency of, like, we've got to get on with the program here. Not because, though, that I know best, but just because I've just seen a lot. I've. I have this data set. No one else does.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's like the writing's on the wall. This isn't even that hard to figure out, but it's like, it's right there. It's. It's staring us down right now. Can we get on with it? Like, let's. Let's get on with the program, which is a weird place to be, but here we are. So what. I mean, what's. What's. What's next? What are you guys working on next? From a people standpoint.

[Nate]

I mean, I. I would say mostly execution, right? Like, you push. You push through these. These barriers and make. Make some good progress and then have everything lined out in front of you, and then it just comes down to. To execution. So, like, can we. Can we really execute this apprenticeship program? Like, can we get some people graduated? Can we. I mean, we're. We're expecting even more growth over the next five years. You know, can we.

[Randy]

Are.

[Nate]

Will our systems sustain that growth? What adjustments do we have to make? So that's. That's what we're working on. I think the other thing that I should highlight, too, is, like, with this retention thing, we've. You can't ignore that, like, the higher of quality the recruit is, the better the retention is. So it's got to start, like, up front. And for us, I feel like a big part of that has come from social media, which I've been a guy that, like, has not been on social media. You know, my wife doesn't. She does enough for. For both of us, and I've just kind of stayed away from it. But we embraced social media as a company pretty heavily about 18 months ago. Yeah, and it's another one of those things where we're. We're seeing the results. This is a perfect example. I had this motorcycle I was selling last week, and kid comes to pick up the motorcycle, and I find out he's going through the construction management program at uvu and he works for a general contractor in the Valley. And so he's asking me about. About landmark, and we're talking, and he mentioned he. He really liked heavy civil. And I was like, hey, man, like, if you ever want to stop by.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

You know, we're. We've got positions that would fit you for sure. And he was a little bit standoffish. Like, whoa, I'm happy where I'm at. That's great. So don't think anything of it. Meet up with him two days later to give him some paperwork, and he's like. I pull up and he's just smiling, and he's like, nate, I checked out your social media. And I'm like, okay. He's like, it's. It's really cool. I want to come work for you guys.

[Randy]

Wow.

[Nate]

Like, really? And so these are the dots that I've connected. Like, we. I've worked really hard to have good company culture, and I feel like we do some cool things as a company. I feel like we take care of our employees, we do good work. But the, like, social media is a great way to get that information out there to people because otherwise how would they know who we are? You know, we're just not so glamorous. Construction company where people put on their boots and go to work each day. It's still a job but social media is a way, it's a platform to get more information out there about your culture and who you really are as a company.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I, I'm still warming up to the social media thing so maybe I get there maybe, maybe next year. Yeah, I, I, I, I honestly had never heard of you guys until 18 months ago. Yeah, I mean I'm, I, I have a good sense of the Utah market, but yeah, until I saw a man. Until you got involved with us and I started to see stuff on social media. I was like yeah, yeah, how about it? And then, and then I think I called you, I was like, how many people do you have? You're like, you know, hundreds. Like damn, it's, that's a, that's a good size operation. But you just don't know.

[Nate]

We're still a little guy.

[Aaron]

But, but, but that's like a, I mean you're, you're bigger than a little guy at that point. But with, with, without that online presence like to a growing percentage of the market, you don't exist.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

If you're not there. Yeah, it just doesn't, it's kind, it's.

[Nate]

Kind of like a website.

[Randy]

Right.

[Nate]

Like a website. 10, 15 years ago you weren't in business if you didn't have a website.

[Randy]

Sure.

[Nate]

And now I think it the same thing applies with social media.

[Aaron]

Well and being there is one thing but yeah. I think businesses of anything happening on social media, it's like businesses are the worst because it's all, I've thought about this a lot too. You go on LinkedIn. A lot of it's just nonsense. Like no one cares. I'm sorry but it's like good for you guys. Oh you're so good. You got this award. Congratulations. But I don't me as an individual, I'm not going to go work for a company because you got some award. Like I don't even know what that award is. I don't even know what, I don't even know what that like I, I, that to me creates no value. But I think you guys do it really well too because you just show what the heck's happening. Yeah, it's been great to follow along with you have was a young woman doing it.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate]

Kate.

[Aaron]

Kate.

[Nate]

She's awesome.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. There's and it's non stop.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

A lot going on there.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

She's got.

[Randy]

I.

[Nate]

You have to have a good sense of humor too.

[Aaron]

You do. Yeah. That's.

[Nate]

Can't just be all business.

[Aaron]

And some of the corporate marketing people, they take themselves very seriously. I just, yeah, it's just like. And in. That's what I struggle with in construction too. It's like, who died? Like what? I know this is serious. I get it. Like, yeah, safety and quality and infrastructure, so on and so forth. But it's like. But can we, can we have some. This is U dot.

[Nate]

Yes. I was going to bring that up. Nailed it.

[Aaron]

Unbelievable. Like a state dot that is as dry as it gets. Yes, as. And it was that way for a long time. And then U DOT gave the reins to this young woman. They were like, have at it. And she started to, you know, dip toes in the water. Try this, try that. Now they're just full send. And now you have every DOT across the United States following in their footsteps. Not by accident because it's, it's entertaining, it's effective. It's so like they have these, it'll be like these bridge fest posts and it's about, it's about them closing a highway or like a major disruption.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But then they make it into some.

[Nate]

And everyone's happy about it.

[Aaron]

Everybody's happy about it. It's like, this is.

[Nate]

Yeah, i80 is going to be shut down.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah. But it's like. But when it's presented like this by a dog wearing sunglasses.

[Randy]

There you go.

[Aaron]

I can't be upset about i80 being shut down. Or, or. But beyond the entertainment value, they, they show you too. Like they'll have all the time like, hey, yeah, you'll see some lanes closed. You know, these nights we know it's frustrating but like, here's what's going on.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And our crews, they're. One, they're working at night so they don't disrupt you during the day, which is big. You're sleeping, they're working. And then two, here's what they're doing. We've got these complaints about these potholes. We know it's frustrating as well. So here's how we fix it. And then they show you how they're fixing it. And it's like, okay, well now is it still a disruption? Maybe, but now I understand. At least that's the key. I have a sense of understanding. So it's not just them closing, closing roads to like ruin my life. It's them making My life better ultimately. Okay. I can get beyond. I can get behind that. Yeah, it's great. It's brilliant.

[Nate]

It's interesting that it's such a, a key to our education and information.

[Aaron]

Yeah, well, and that's another thing people complain about. It's like, oh, people just don't understand what we do. It's like, have you told them?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Then, then shut up. Like, who else? Who's gonna tell them? Yeah, obviously nobody. So if you don't do it and, and I mean, it's, it's just, you would still be, you would be amazed how many people still turn us down though.

[Randy]

Really?

[Aaron]

All the time. All the time. I mean, it just happened a few times last week. Like big time stuff that I've been working. Some of the stuff I've been. I was working on this one approval for like six months and then they just emailed one day and they're like, hey, we're good.

[Nate]

It's like, this is like, what do.

[Aaron]

You mean you're good?

[Nate]

For you to come visit.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh, and it would have just, we would have just hit it out of the park and they said, well, we've already promoted it and this and that and, and honestly, the promotion, it was like, fine. It was like not nearly. I mean, we reach, we, we do. We put better numbers on the board than Caterpillar right now Caterpillar spends. They have a much bigger marketing budget than we do, let me tell you. And, but that's to illustrate the power of it too. It's like I'm just a dummy. We don't, we don't spend that much money on this. And we generate a billion views a year.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

On social media, it's insane.

[Nate]

Crazy.

[Aaron]

The reach is, is just wild. But even, even that one person coming to work for you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like again, if you look at it from a dollar standpoint, how much one individual can generate revenue wise.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

And then from a profitability standpoint, I mean, it's like Randy knows these numbers like the back of his hand. I mean, it's like $50,000 a year potentially in, in income that each individual can.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Can get you. So you have to hire like two.

[Nate]

People to pay for them to pay.

[Aaron]

For a full time hire to do. To do it for you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which, like the return, that's, that's pretty easy to pencil for even a smaller company.

[Randy]

Right. Yeah.

[Nate]

I mean the promise that I would make to, to owners, founders out there is like, it will pay for itself. Like it's something that you have to invest in.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. I. But all of the better companies now are doing it, so I don't think it's. I think it's proven at this point. And then I would, I would also argue, like, I know you said you're not into social media, but being on social media as the guy.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It goes a long ways.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It really goes a long way.

[Nate]

Kate's told me that.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, like she can only do so much from the company perspective.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But you, if you go look at the biggest, most well known construction brands right now in the market, in the heavy civil construction place that aren't keywit, you know, Keywit, different realm, Granite, you know, whatever it is, like an Ames. They're all companies with very vocal leadership online.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Every, every. And as I started to think about it, every single example is like that. Every single one.

[Nate]

It's good to know it all up my game.

[Aaron]

It's not, it's not a requirement. But yeah, like, I'll have like, Dan Garcia will be in here maybe tomorrow. He runs C.W. matthews.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Biggest dot contractor in Georgia. And they're monsters. They're like, like maybe 12, 1500 people, whatever. It's big operation. But he, he's not, he's not like living on LinkedIn, but he posts enough on LinkedIn and CW Matthews has a great presence and they're just a big operation, but I think they're, they're well known across the country now. Because of Dan. I don't think he would say that, but I really do think it starts from the top. And then, and, and you setting the example from the top also signals that it's okay.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To talk about it as an organization. Which is also important because they're coming from other organizations that you'd get fired.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For talking about it.

[Nate]

Good point.

[Aaron]

And so even like, like going back to mental health, like, you have to signal, like saying we need to talk about it, I think is wildly inadequate.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I almost think it does that. It does you a disservice.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If you just say like, we need to talk about it.

[Nate]

Like, well, we need to do something.

[Aaron]

What does that mean? Yeah, yeah.

[Randy]

I don't, I don't know what that means.

[Aaron]

And, and you know, you see these, these like well crafted executive messages. This isn't even construction. This is just in general stuff I see online about like this executive saying, yeah, mental health is really important. We need to talk about. They're reading off a teleprompter. It's like, yeah. Wow. I feel Like I really feel something with this, this message and. But instead it's like, at least in within my business, me just talking about stuff, signaling, hey, it's okay to talk about stuff has been the most effective thing we've done.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Regarding talking about stuff.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I mean.

[Randy]

What.

[Nate]

We have a problem in our industry with, with mental health. And so like saying we need to talk about it is the truth, but we need to talk about it and do something about it.

[Aaron]

Well, and we've been talking about it now for a little bit. People are still dying.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

At the same rate. Like that's the, that's the reality. So it's like until we do something about it. And I don't want to, I don't want to like, I'm not criticizing the whole, like I think talking about it's first step, but yeah, it's, it's about action. It's like we need to talk about building roads.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That doesn't build the road.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You still have to build the damn road. Which is why I love construction. Because other industries can just talk about a bunch of and somehow still make a bunch of money because they have the whole system rigged in their favor. Whereas that doesn't work in construction. You can talk all day long, but you still got to do it.

[Nate]

The road done.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Is it, is it done? It's a meritocracy. It's like, is the asphalt there? Is the dirt moved? Is the concrete poured? Is the pipe in the ground? That's all that matters at the end of the day. Which I love. But it's, it's. Then you get into these squishier topics. So it's like the same principle. Like we, we have to do something. Which why I love like the simple system you guys have.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

The logs.

[Aaron]

It doesn't like. Yeah, that doesn't, did that, did that take this huge budget to implement?

[Nate]

No, it's, I mean, yeah. Aside from the other systems that we're already using, it's. It's free.

[Aaron]

It's free.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We're spending time on it.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So yeah, it's. It, it's talking about it, but doing something about it. And I think it's, it's like the whole mental health thing needs to be just, just like any other process that we have of bettering our people. Like I view my company as a vehicle for me and my family and you know, 240 other families that are coming in and it is a vehicle for them to get to where they want to go. You know, that's at the end of the day, we're all here to support our families now. We can have fun and do a good job while, while doing that if we do it right. And so these people that are getting funneled into the company, hopefully they're getting funneled out better than they were when they came in.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

One of my favorite questions to ask at these company events where we have our employees and their spouses families is I love to go up to the spouse, be like, hey, are so, you know, so and so they've worked for us now for a year. Are they better today at home now than they were a year ago? And like 100% of the time it's yes.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And that feels really good.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But that going back to this corporate sense of entitlement, it's like, they need to make my company better.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then I might think about making them better. It's like, no, no, no, no. And. And there's this weird thing that's like, in this, like, because there were only so many options from a career standpoint back in the day, like in my dad's generation, not that far ago. Like if you just look at even the options available, far less than there are today because of that. There was in a lot of ways this, like in just this blind loyalty.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like if I pay you, you do work for me. That's it. The contract is the paycheck every week. That doesn't work anymore.

[Randy]

No.

[Aaron]

That's. That is out the window. Out the window. You have to make people better. And they're like, I feel like these companies, especially from an executive standpoint, so the executives, oftentimes they're at that executive level of these big companies because work has always been their priority. And they might not say that, but their actions say that. And maybe not that's not the only way to get there. But oftentimes it is. And they then project that onto their workforce. But it's like, that's totally mistaken. Like I'm the, I'm the only one at this company. Like buildwit because I don't have a family. Probably change when I have family. Like build what's number one in my life.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That is not true for anybody else at this company.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

And I, I should never ever believe that that will be the case. If that is ever the case for anybody else here. Something is horribly wrong.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like I have to make sure they're. I have to make sure we're aligned with their best interests, that they're improving as an Individual that they're able to care for their family, do what they need to do at home so that they can then do what they need to do here, which then makes the business better so that we can do more for them, so that they can grow better and do better at home against that same virtuous cycle. But I have to ensure that they're good to go with their priority.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Which is caring for their family. If I don't. If I don't satisfy that condition, it doesn't matter how good of a workplace we are or how much money we're making, how much we're paying, how big our mission is, go down, how good our product. Like, none of that matters if I don't satisfy that one condition, which is really humbling. It's like, oh, wait a minute. It's not about me or us at all. It's about each one of these individuals and their families. And the more we can make them better, the more we'll be better.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I love that.

[Aaron]

There we go.

[Nate]

And that's. I mean, when. I feel like when you have your priorities straight, that's the most rewarding part out of what we do, you know?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And that's why. That's why our mission at Landmark is to. Is growth. And you may ask, well, why, Nate?

[Randy]

Why.

[Nate]

Why growth? You know, it's more. More capital outlay, more stress, more risk. But the. The mission behind it is impact. Positive impact. The bigger we are, the more positive impact we can have on our people and on the communities that we work. So let. Let's do it. I think also that we have a. We have a really good opportunity. Opportunity here. Because these numbers are crazy. Like suicide three and a half times any other industry.

[Randy]

Oh, yeah.

[Nate]

That's insane.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Opioid overdose seven times any other industry.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So you look at it well. Why? Well, people sometimes fall into the trades. They just. Like, there's a low barrier of entry. So we. We get those people. Well, I look at it as an opportunity. So because we get these people, let's do something about it. Let's. Let's. Let's use our companies, our industry, and as this funnel and this, this. This machine to make people better than they were when they came into the industry.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yes. And that is where that's the best place to be. But a lot of people are taking the opposite approach. Like, that's not our problem.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They're just addicts.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

What? Like in that I almost don't blame. Especially the people that have been around a while to be so cynical because they've been screwed over so many times.

[Nate]

Yeah, that's tough.

[Aaron]

I also think it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I think if you have a shitty attitude towards people, you attract shitty people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's just kind of how it is. Like I know enough business owners now too. Some of them like I see them in a lot of trouble and it's almost like they attract it. Like they're almost looking for it in a way. Like there's people that I can think of. It's like I kind of know why that's happening to them because they're, that's what they're putting out there. And so they're just receiving what they're, what they're putting out. And then other, other people that are just like a Dan Garcia for example, they're just, just, they're just good caring humans with such a positive mindset towards people and they end up with more good caring human beings around them.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like we'll go figure. How about that? But that it does. I think that's part of the problem why substance abuse is so big in this world.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's because we do. It is a career people fall into. Is that low barrier to entry.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

There's a lot of reasons.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But, but you do attract those and, and just to do the work. You're, you're attracting kind of the misfits of society.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're, you're, you're by definition getting all the people that weren't good at school.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like that just didn't fit into the system. Which is why they're good here.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And we need those people to build the world. Go figure.

[Nate]

I've freaking love what we do.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's. I think that's one of the coolest things about it. That's one of the most. Because I grew up like as in the system as possible. My dad was a director at Deloitte.

[Nate]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Like there is no more. There is no more. And like a client was like a blackrock. Like there's no more white collar than that. And then every like the world I was in was. It was very wealthy. Everybody's dad was somebody. The money was just unbelievable. Private school. Like it was so far from reality. So far from reality. And I go back there now and I just look around like these people think this is real life. Like this is, this is crazy. Like they're, they just hang like this is, this is unbelievable. And then I for whatever reason fall into construction and it's like, oh, this is way cooler. This is so much better than that. Like, there's no bullshit here. It's just. We're just doing the work. And it was so. It just drew me right in and there. And since then, I have never once thought about any other of these fancy industries, you know, finance or consulting or, or real estate or this and that. Like, I could give a. About any of that. And sometimes I deal with those people. I'm like, I can't. Or maybe like within your world, you have to deal with, you know, other businesses outside of your business, outside of construction. You're just like, I cannot believe this is how these people do business. Like, this is crazy. Like they, I can't even believe they talk like this. Like, this is like, I got. They're speaking a different language and it's like seven meetings before anything gets done.

[Randy]

And these.

[Aaron]

And these.

[Randy]

These.

[Aaron]

Yeah, these big, fancy. I mean, we went into a conference room not too long ago, and I'm looking, I'm like, I almost need to put you on speakerphone across the table. The table's so big. Like, this is, this is just how these people do business. But in this world, there's just, there's no room for that. And I love that. I think it's so special. It's, it's so unique. And, but, but, but that attracts. We just took a long road and did some, did. Did a little bit of a Trump weave there, but that, that attracts these, these misfits and they're more likely to be abusing substances or whatever. They're predisposed to that based on mostly just conditions of their upbringing, not their fault. And then also, I think the industry has a lot. You can place a lot of blame on the industry as well. And it's not any individual. It's just the system overall, which is hard to, to, to break out of. But it's, it's the hours.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, the hours are oftentimes insane. Like working 70 hours a week. That's not sustainable.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

Like, I don't care what anybody says. That's. That's not sustainable. One, and so that just. That is brutal. Two, and you know, a lot of times you're potentially working away from home.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which is also really hard. Really hard. Especially in a long term. In a long term sense. And then three, it's very physical. And, and it's crazy, like, how much time and energy we spend on the whole safety thing. And we don't ever talk about health, which is why I don't subscribe to a lot of the safety stuff. I just think it's because it's like. So you're. You're going to treat me, somebody who works out every single day, does triathlons the same as that guy who's 350 pounds?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're going to. You're going to treat us the same when it comes to injuries. It's. It's just. You're in. It's out to lunch. That's, that's. That's. And we're not going to talk about that. We're not going to. We're not going to have that conversation and. And even say that this guy is more likely to get injured or trip and. And get seriously. And so you. You have this. This career that is. Oftentimes it degrades bodies or injures people in different ways, and then you go get prescriptions for stuff.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that. Really slippery slope. Really slippery slope. I mean, that pills scare the shit out of me for that reason, because, I mean, addiction's in my family. And it's like, you're one. You're one injury away from sliding down that path. And now people like the. It used to be not that long ago, it was like, you wouldn't know anybody that's died from drugs because you're the world you live in. I live in pretty far from that. Like, pretty far from that now. All the time.

[Nate]

All the time.

[Aaron]

Like, you can. I mean, in my head, I can, like, list people close to me that's just like they've had a child. Just drop dead.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because they made one wrong decision and it's like. And we're gonna sit here and say, that's. That's their problem. That's their fault. It's like, hey, there's a better way to approach this. So the. The opioid things that. And. And alcoholism, that. That's the one that scares. There's just. That keeps me up at night.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So.

[Nate]

So what are we going to do about it?

[Aaron]

I. I do think one is. It starts talking about it, but I. It's just until like, that. The health and wellness thing, it needs to become a priority in construction. It. I. I cannot. I cannot believe. And that's why, like, the whole stretch and flex thing, I think is a fucking joke. Like. And I know it's standard now and this and that. Oh, you know, but it's like, it's just for show. Like, this is. This is theatrics. This is totally theatric. And it's not stretching is good if you're doing all these other things. But we're not going to talk about any of those other things. Like, it's fine if you want to be an alcoholic, no problem. You want to be super overweight, no problem. And are you overweight because of the hours you're working and because you're not able to then get the proper nutrients in you and this and that? Yes. But we're not going to talk about that. We're just going to stretch and flex. When you lay it out, you're like, that's kind of silly. Like, that's a little ridiculous. But. And again, I am like, I'm all for it. If we're approaching things holistically. We're just not. We're picking and choosing based on. We're letting all these things kind of dictate what we can pick and choose based on. What's okay. What's. What's okay. But you go to a football team, they're like, the performance of that team depends on the physical performance of their people.

[Randy]

Right.

[Aaron]

So they're focused on the physical performance of their people and they're making sure their people are good to go. Construction. It depends upon the physical performance of people.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Even operators. It's still physical and you still have to be focused. And are you, can you be more focused and more diligent if you're healthier? 100%. It's very physical. But we don't talk about that. It's like, how is a whole industry built on people's bodies and focus and the, the physical health and well being of individuals? How is a whole industry built upon that? Not talking at all about that.

[Nate]

It's a great point.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I think that, I mean, I've been thinking about the health side of things more because that's, that's probably the next step of what we need to be diving into. But on the addiction side of things, we're not going to be able to save everyone. It sucks. But, you know, I've got it in my family too. And there's those that we just like, no matter what we do, like helping is almost the worst thing that we could do sometimes. Like, I, I don't know and I don't have all of those answers, but I do feel like having a place that is safe and has resources and is providing vision for what could be and providing an atmosphere of people that you want to be like. Because that's, that's naturally what happens.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Is probably like the best first steps and the the, the best steps that we could be taking to, to help the problem.

[Aaron]

And, and I feel like building that environment and then also approaching your people, especially new people, with a sense of grace and understanding as well.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because I think that's important as well. Like most people have never been in an environment like that.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And most people have been screwed. Like, they've just been dealt a shitty hand. Whether that's where they grew up, how they grew up, parents, education, former employers, etc, like they've been. Especially in this industry too. It's like, it's a lot of people that have adult shitty hands. They don't trust you as an employer. They don't trust the people around them.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They don't trust anybody.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because they've, they've never had a reason to. And it becomes, it becomes that vicious cycle. You start to act distrusting and then you, you then reap what you sow, which. But it's not your fault. Like, you just had to grow up in that environment. You've had to protect yourself your entire life, build up this enormous shell around you, which it does you a disservice, but it's just psychology. And so you have to have like a degree of patience with people too.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In the sense of understanding. Like. Yeah, they don't get it yet, but we're just going to keep putting our hand out and it's ultimately on them to take, take, like to meet us in the middle. But it might take them a while to even meet us in the middle.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because they've never before had a reason to.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Nate]

Yeah, I've seen that for sure. Like we'll have issues and it's like, oh, wow, you, like, you don't trust me, you don't trust our company because you've been screwed so many times before. But I'm telling you, you, you can, you can trust me.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Nate]

I'll prove it. Like, you, you've got to trust. Trust that the company will take care of you if you take care of the company.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But the, the worst thing you can do is take it personally.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Oh, they don't trust me, so I'm not going to trust them.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like, you know, it doesn't work.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, even we, we. I think we've made a mistake in that. We have, we have made so many mistakes when it comes to people. So many mistakes. It's just been, it's been out of control and I feel like I'm the only idiot doing it, but I know it's everywhere. Companies just don't talk about it. But we've made the mistake of like in certain situations we really do. We try so hard to make some things work and then it just doesn't work for whatever reason. And then we don't talk about it because there's, I don't know, this legal boogeyman or whatever standing in the corner. Like I might get you talk about it. But then that, then you like lose. Sure, there's that risk, but then you lose this whole sense of understanding with your current workforce and team because you're scared of this potential occurrence from happening outside of your. Of your business. And so we had something that happened and, and it was frustrating to me because it's like, I just want to talk about this. And they're like, ah, we can't talk about it. And then we tried to craft something and, and it was just like. But if we're trying to be careful with how we're saying it, then it comes off like it's not genuine. It is genuine, but then it, it's not received that way because it's so carefully. Because your words are so carefully.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Thought through at the same time.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And so I just said, you know, screw it. And we have a weekly video update for a company. It's between typically five and eight minutes. And it's me just saying, here's what happened in the company this week, just so you're aware. One of the best things I've done. Phenomenal. I like that it goes a long way. But I just explain the situation like, hey, this is from my perspective. This is, this is wholly my perspective. This is not right or wrong. Take it for whatever it's worth. Take it with a grain of salt. I'm just going to explain it from my point of view just so you can understand how I saw it and what happened here. And so I did that. I didn't hear anything about it. I don't get any feedback on anything, which is very frustrating. But then somebody within our company said, hey, I think like something like that is really starting to help people understand that we do try and care.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like, yes, we do. Like, we really do, but we haven't talked about it internally. And so I'm glad we are talking about stuff like that internally because it does then build trust with people as well. But I, I think, because even it's not that we haven't cared, but because we've, like, we've been afraid of whatever legal ramifications are going to happen about talking about something we don't. But then it works against us.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

In creating trust within our culture, which I understand. I can't blame anybody.

[Nate]

Communication.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. After, like the Foreman disappears one day with no explanation.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, you start to fill that void in with all kinds of crazy shit.

[Randy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's probably nothing all that dramatic.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But even just explaining it like, hey, from our perspective, here's what happened. Oh, okay, okay. And, and maybe the Foreman tells a totally different story. People are also smart. They can put two sides together and they can say, okay, I, I kind of see his perspective, but I also understand the company's perspective here. And they're also the ones paying my bills and they've been good to me and they've treated me with respect. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay on this team.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then it gets you so much more respect and appreciation and trust.

[Nate]

Absolutely. What, so what are you seeing out there as far as like the, the good thing or the best things that, that companies are doing for their people, like in terms of, of solving some of these issues that we've been talking about?

[Aaron]

I think it's a lot of what you're talking about.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, like just, I think it starts with, I mean, even, like, JP is a great example. I think it just starts with leadership. Acknowledging that, hey, things are different now and that's okay. It's not a bad thing. Like, and, and, and that requires me to question my previously held beliefs that may have gotten me here, that may have built this whole thing. I might have to question each one of those. Some of them may serve me, others may not, but that's okay. Like, I think that's where it really begins. And I bring up JP because like, even I know he came to the summit last year and then he bought some simulators and he said, hey, just thanks for continuing to open my eyes. It's like, yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't need to question anything. Like, he's done just fine. He's got a good thing going, but that's not enough for him. He wants to continue getting better and building an even better business. And he understands. He's the roadblock. He's either the one to help it it or the one to hold it back. And, and, and that's where it starts. So I think it, I think it, I think that's where it really begins is each company that has a leader or leadership that is questioning their previously held beliefs is on the path.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's, it's not that common, though. Yeah, it's really not. But. And that's. It's kind of a non answer, but I think that's where it starts. But then once you've done that now, you can then open the door for stuff you've done with Jake, for example. And then I think, I think it starts to take care of itself from there.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, I even had like, Glenn Barenko and he was another. He was another great example. He was on the podcast not too long ago and he had a similar turnover problem. I think their turnover, like 70%. And now it's like he halved it within. In North Dakota. Brutal market.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Very seasonal. Competing with the oil field. Like, it's. There's not that many people that live there. Like, it's, It's. That's a tough one of. Probably one of the toughest places to have a company of this size. But he just started doing these simple things, like, you know, taking. Having orientation and then taking everybody to lunch, you know, as, as him, the guy.

[Nate]

Yeah, everybody. Big deal.

[Aaron]

It's a big deal. And he would say, you know, I. These guys would come up to me and they said, I've. I've worked for companies where I've never met the owner. It's like, that sounds crazy, but that's not that uncommon.

[Nate]

Right.

[Aaron]

That's actually pretty common, I would say.

[Randy]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Nate]

I get, I get that question often from, like, new hires. Like, oh, so how often am I going to see you? I'm. I'm around pretty much all the time.

[Aaron]

My cell phone number.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Doors always open.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I do think that that's, that's one thing that we've been pretty good about is door open policy. Like, legitimately. Call me, come see me.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Anytime. Yeah, I'll do whatever I can.

[Aaron]

Yes. But you've also, you also have to seek that information out too.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Like going back to that form.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Like, you have to look for it, you have to facilitate it. Because that's what I've learned too is, you know, saying I'm always around is not enough. You have to, you have to go to them.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You have to go to their office, quote, unquote. If you're just sitting around waiting for people to come into your office, you just don't.

[Nate]

It's not going to happen.

[Aaron]

No. No, it's not going to happen. And it's like you wish it would and it's like you genuinely mean it. Like, I'm seriously, like, let's sit down. And let's have a conversation. But there's also this, like, weird. Like, whenever you're the guy, there's also, like, this weird force field around you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I feel like.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's not even you creating it.

[Randy]

No.

[Nate]

And a lot of times you projected onto you. A lot of times you don't know you have it.

[Aaron]

No.

[Nate]

And then you're like, oh, okay. Yes. That's tracking now.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Which works for and against you.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because if you do reach out to somebody, it's a big deal.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like, man, I feel really cared for, but then sometimes you're a little too loose with your words, or you say. You just say something offhand to somebody.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You don't think about it ever again. They're thinking about it all day.

[Nate]

Yes.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then they tell you, you know, tomorrow, and they look, like, disheveled because they didn't sleep last night.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And then you're like, oh, my goodness. Like, you've been worried about this. Like, I didn't even.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

I didn't even think about it. Like, I didn't even mean that. And. But I really think it starts by just getting on the path that is, like. And it just starts with you. It just comes back to, like, just you as an individual, too.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, I can't talk to my team about health and wellness and the importance of health and wellness and sleep if I'm not healthy and well. And if I'm not sleeping.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I can't talk about mental health if I'm not doing the work on my mental health. And that gives me. It just gives me. I mean, I can, but it gives me so much more credibility to be like, listen, I've been through shit like everybody else. Here's what I've been doing. Like, I'm not. I don't have to preach it. I don't have to preach the benefits of, like, therapy.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I just talk about the benefits for me.

[Nate]

Worked for me. There you see what I'm doing.

[Aaron]

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. But I really comes down to leadership in the end.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

I mean, you bring up a great point about, like. Like, the answer to my question of what. What others are doing. I. I feel like I've felt that transition. I mean, I'm 22 years into this business now, and I've really felt that transition in the last, like, two years of changing mindset, changing, like, the way that I've been thinking about things in terms of, like, as simple as social media, as. As simple as, like, Going to these conferences, Dirt World Summit, and just the good that comes out of that and not being as, like, siloed and standoffish to our competitors and what, what's going on in the industry. Like, yeah, we're all in this together, and we've. We've got some really big problems that we need to solve together.

[Aaron]

But even not being standoffish, I think is great. Like, it's still. I've been to, like, some of these traditional association meetings.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're kind of. It's, it's kind of a weird vibe. It's like, what the fuck's wrong with all you guys? Like, because everybody. It's like they leave and they're. They're out to cut everybody's throats. Like, they're, They're. It's all the competitors, but then they're trying to act like it's not. And it's just like, it's this weird, like, manufactured dynamic in a way.

[Nate]

How. How big are the trade secrets really?

[Aaron]

I just, I. I chuckle every time I'm like, oh, you think you have a top secret way of putting asphalt down? Like, yeah, everybody does it the same way. Like, you are building the road to DOT specifications. Like, you, you can't build it differently. You're contractually required to build it like everybody else. But I even. But, but I do, like, I understand that mentality because it's a hyper competitive world.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you do each eat what you kill. And a lot of these guys did live through 2008, 2009, 2010. It's like, listen, I had to. I, I went through. I never want to go through again.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So I understand it. But, but then, but it takes even, like, significant personal growth to get beyond that as well. Even, like, just to open your mind up to more of, like, an abundance mindset. It's hard. Like, it's. Because it's not human nature, and you really have to unwind some things within your head to be like. And, and you have to be vulnerable.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like social media, it requires vulnerability. Yeah, it's very vulnerable. Coming on this podcast requires significant vulnerability.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yes. And. And I, I give anybody sitting down for it huge credit. Because most everybody never been on anything like this before.

[Randy]

Right.

[Nate]

Especially in our industry.

[Aaron]

Especially in this world. Yeah. But. But I feel like most everybody, if not everybody that I talk to is on that path that is, like, I'm questioning my previously held beliefs, and I'm starting to realize that there's a better way, and we're starting to do that. Better way. And it's more fun.

[Randy]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And so working better and we're making more money and we're caring for our people better and we're not turning over as many people. And I'm, I'm just enjoying it. So it's like we're just going to keep doing more of this.

[Nate]

Sounds good to me.

[Aaron]

There we go. But again, I think it really. It goes. It always comes back to leadership. It always comes back to leadership. Like, I've seen. I've seen a lot of companies try social media, but you can tell when the leaders bought in or not bought in.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If they're not bought in, it never works. It never, ever works. If the leadership is not 100%, it doesn't work. And it works great when leadership is bought in. Like the whole you dot thing.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It would have never happened if the organization wasn't behind it, but the organization is clearly behind it. And then. And you can again, like, from a social media perspective, you. You put your toes in the water. You don't have to go full send. Like having dogs with sunglasses telling you, you know, traffic closures coming up this, this Sunday, that's not where they started. But then you get further in, you see the benefits. You can go further. You can go further. Like, every, like, as long as I've been doing this too, it's still scary to be vulnerable. But then every time I'm vulnerable, I see the benefits. Like, that's the stuff that, that's the best.

[Nate]

Right?

[Aaron]

Is when it's like, oh, wow, yeah, you are a human being. It's like, yes, I am. I've screwed whatever this is up. I have anxiety. I'm terrified of being an alcoholic. Like, whatever it is. Like, one of my most popular posts ever in the first few years of doing this was me telling the story of how I ran the company out of money.

[Nate]

Vulnerability.

[Aaron]

Did I have a. Did I have fun posting that? No. It was miserable to even think about it. I just wanted to bury that. Like, lock it in a box, bury it somewhere, burn the map, never think about it again. But instead it's like, all right, I'm going to not just think about it, but I'm going to write about it. Then I'm gonna publish it. And you hit publish. You're like, this is. You're just scared. You're scared shitless. Like, what are. What are. And you're scared shitless mostly because it's like, what are my people gonna think?

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And they're, you know, they're wives.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, what are they gonna think? They're working. Their. Their. Their spouse is working for some guy that ran the company out of money, and that's how we're feeding our family. So it's like, you go down that pathway and. But then, ironically, it gets you far more credibility.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because it's like, man, he'll just. He just.

[Nate]

It's real.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We're all dealing with it, you know?

[Aaron]

We're all dealing with it. Yeah. Yeah. We're all. We're all there. And that applies to companies, too. Like, I trust companies way more, and I'm. I'm not, like, promoting this, but it's like every once in a while, I'll see a company share some terrible thing that happened on their job site.

[Randy]

Mm.

[Aaron]

And it's like, I trust those companies substantially more as a result.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Every.

[Aaron]

Every time. Every time.

[Nate]

I don't know what else you want to talk about.

[Aaron]

What's coming down the road for you guys? Just.

[Nate]

Big job today. Bids at 2 o'. Clock.

[Aaron]

Oh. So she probably need to.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Make some phone calls.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So that. I mean, I don't know how much I want to share about this, but materials, like, we're. Yeah, we're going after materials. Yeah, we need to.

[Aaron]

The materials market has driven contractors to have to go after materials.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They've done it to themselves.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

An unpopular argument, but a lot of these companies are public. You can see how much money they're making. And so the whole argument saying, oh, it's just really hard for us to, you know, supply chain diesel and so on and so forth, it's like, yeah, but you're making all this money. I've seen a lot of contractors start to go in that direction.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

We need to. I'm getting a lot of push from my executive team for that. Like, that's what they want me working on. And so that's this whole struggle, too. Like, okay, I need to be focusing more on this. Like, I need to be giving up some of my other responsibilities.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Nate]

But I've got. I've got a great team. I've been. That's one thing that I have been so fortunate of. I have attracted the best people at that level, and it's. And it's trickled down. So.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Materials, other mergers, acquisitions, like you said, like concrete.

[Aaron]

I mean.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Anything you can do to control your destiny.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

All of a sudden it's like, man, we control our schedule so much better now because of that.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

So that we're building a new office in St. George excited about that.

[Aaron]

Very cool.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Hoping to break ground here in the next couple months. On it.

[Aaron]

Sweet.

[Nate]

Closed on the property. Moving into northern Utah. We've got some work up there. Ogden area.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Bidding in Idaho. We're in Nevada now. We've got a job in Mesquite.

[Aaron]

Nice.

[Randy]

So.

[Aaron]

So growth is real, huh?

[Nate]

It's real, man.

[Aaron]

Back in Mesquite.

[Nate]

Back in Mesquite.

[Randy]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Right on.

[Nate]

It's. It's exciting.

[Aaron]

How do people follow you guys on social media then.

[Nate]

Landmark.exe.

[Randy]

Okay.

[Nate]

On Instagram. On Instagram.

[Randy]

Yep.

[Aaron]

Excellent.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Well. Well, appreciate you coming out, stopping by.

[Randy]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Thanks for having me.

[Aaron]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Nate]

It's been fun.

[Aaron]

Look forward to seeing what you all do one of these days.

[Randy]

Yeah. Come on by.

[Nate]

Love to see you.

[Aaron]

Thanks.