Navigating the World of Dirt to Dumpsters w/ Missy Guerrero Scherber – DT 310

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – Episode DT 310: Navigating the World of Dirt to Dumpsters with Missy Guerrero Scherber

Release Date: February 6, 2025
Host: BuildWitt (Aaron)
Guest: Missy Guerrero Scherber

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1. Introduction and Company Beginnings

The episode kicks off with Aaron and Missy reflecting on the inception of BuildWitt. Aaron narrates the company's humble beginnings in early 2018, highlighting his visit to a company producing yellow machinery during his time on "I Build America." This pivotal moment led to the founding of BuildWitt in February 2018, marking the company's 23rd anniversary.

Aaron ([00:58]): "I just started the company. I visited a company that makes yellow machines in January of 2018 when I was on I Build America."

Missy adds her personal connection, sharing her first experience at CAT headquarters and the strategic relocation of the company to Dallas for tax benefits, a move she humorously labels "a classic big corporation move."

Missy ([01:19]): "My first time at CAT headquarters."

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2. Personal Journeys and Meeting Trevor

Aaron and Missy delve into their personal backgrounds, shedding light on their roots and how they intertwined professionally. Missy reveals her upbringing in Oklahoma and Texas, influenced by her grandfather's trucking company, which ignited her passion for the industry from a young age.

Missy ([03:08]): "We’re from Oklahoma. I spent a lot of my childhood in Texas."

Their conversation turns to Trevor, a pivotal figure in their business journey. Missy shares the story of how Trevor ventured into the dumpster business post-recession, overcoming significant challenges to turn it profitable. Their meeting in January 2014 marked the beginning of a fruitful partnership, with Trevor transitioning from mobile operations to expanding the business.

Missy ([12:25]): "He started after the recession... It took him three or four years to turn it around."

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3. Building Company Culture

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around fostering a positive company culture. Both Aaron and Missy emphasize the importance of team morale and the innovative approach they've taken to engage their workforce, such as organizing photo sessions for team members with their machinery. Missy recounts the heartfelt reactions from employees and their families, highlighting the profound impact of these initiatives.

Missy ([07:06]): "Their wives loved it. And then at our Christmas party... our kids are so proud that their dad is on YouTube."

Aaron echoes this sentiment, sharing his own challenges in photographing reluctant employees, a skill he never anticipated developing but now considers invaluable for team engagement and retention.

Aaron ([04:44]): "It's a weird skill I've developed, taking photographs of people that don't want their photographs taken."

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4. Personal Challenges: Perfectionism and Mental Health

Missy opens up about her struggle with perfectionism, a trait ingrained from her upbringing as a pastor’s daughter and her father's high-performance standards. She candidly discusses how this has affected her management style, leading to unrealistic expectations and impacting her team.

Missy ([29:59]): "I'm a recovering perfectionist... it's one of my weaknesses that showed up and I thought was just affecting me."

Aaron relates by sharing his experiences with business pressures and the importance of personal growth to keep up with the company's pace.

Aaron ([32:37]): "A business will only grow as much as the leadership grows."

Missy's journey includes recognizing the detrimental effects of her perfectionism, leading to a pivotal moment where Trevor confronted her about the unsustainable pressure she placed on herself and her team.

Missy ([35:03]): "Trevor had to sit me down and be like, do you need to go?"

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5. Women in Construction: Challenges and Perspectives

A core theme of the episode is the discourse around women in the construction industry. Missy shares her mixed feelings about being a spokesperson for this movement, highlighting the disconnect between industry initiatives and the real experiences of women on the ground.

Missy ([48:07]): "One was a woman-owned and LED contractor... I have to start some conversations downtown Minneapolis."

She critiques the superficiality of some diversity initiatives, arguing that they often fail to address the underlying challenges women face, such as balancing work with family responsibilities.

Missy ([52:37]): "How has this become crazy to say? Like, that's what I scratch my head on."

Aaron supports Missy's perspective, noting the importance of authentic conversations over transactional diversity checks.

Aaron ([50:44]): "Women in construction aren't stoked on the women in construction thing. It's like, wait a minute. What's going on here?"

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6. Diversity and Workforce Development Goals

Missy critiques the current diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) goals within the construction sector, particularly in Minnesota. She points out the inefficacies of meeting these goals through superficial measures, such as token placements that don’t align with the practical needs of the workforce.

Missy ([62:12]): "Why can't the office staff count? So office staff, women, office staff don't count towards the workforce goals. And I'm like, that's bullshit."

She proposes innovative solutions, like establishing local call centers to increase accessibility for diverse populations, emphasizing the need for infrastructure that supports a varied workforce.

Missy ([69:06]): "I'm trying to convince Trevor to put all our machines out there and wrap Christmas lights so the community can drive through and get exposed."

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7. Safety and Mental Health Initiatives

Aaron and Missy address the critical issue of mental health within the industry. Missy shares a personal story about a colleague's suicide, which served as a catalyst for her to advocate for better mental health support systems within the company.

Missy ([86:14]): "A man that was hurting was walking among us on a job site, and now he was... he ended up committing suicide."

They discuss implementing mental safety officers and training programs to foster a supportive environment, emphasizing the importance of addressing both physical and mental well-being.

Missy ([88:09]): "Our safety program is mental safety and well-being... we're trying to build a company that they want to work for."

Aaron introduces the "U Turn" program, a comprehensive mental health and substance abuse training tool, advocating for its adoption to enhance employee support.

Aaron ([87:57]): "It's the most helpful video-based training on mental health, substance abuse I have ever seen."

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8. Future Outlook and Closing Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Aaron and Missy contemplate the future of their company and the construction industry. They emphasize the necessity of authenticity, transparency, and genuine support systems to foster a resilient and inclusive workforce.

Missy ([94:25]): "The goal is to be unapologetically yourself and transparent, and that makes us a better industry."

Aaron reflects on the importance of maintaining a strong company culture that values each team member’s contribution, advocating for a balanced approach that honors both operational efficiency and personal well-being.

Aaron ([95:12]): "It's just like, we're in it to win it with you. We know that means trench time. We know that means up on the hill looking over a complete project."

Notable Quotes:

• Missy ([29:59]): "I'm a recovering perfectionist... it's one of my weaknesses that showed up and I thought was just affecting me."

• Aaron ([32:37]): "A business will only grow as much as the leadership grows."

• Missy ([62:12]): "Why can't the office staff count? So office staff, women, office staff don't count towards the workforce goals. And I'm like, that's bullshit."

• Aaron ([87:57]): "It's the most helpful video-based training on mental health, substance abuse I have ever seen."

---

Conclusion

Episode DT 310 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt offers an unfiltered exploration of the intersection between personal growth, company culture, and industry-wide challenges. Through candid conversations, Aaron and Missy shed light on the complexities of running a construction business while advocating for a more inclusive, supportive, and authentic work environment. Listeners gain valuable insights into the human aspects of the industry, emphasizing that true progress stems from addressing both operational and personal well-being.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is exciting. I was trying to think about our anniversary. So 2018, this season we met.

[A]

Yeah. I just started the company. I visited a company that makes yellow machines in January of 2018 when I was on I Build America. Yes, Quit. Started Buildbit in February of 2018, turned 23 in February of 2018. Then you and I went back. I went back to Peoria with you in April of 2018, and that was.

[B]

My first time at CAT headquarters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know what I was getting.

[A]

Into what used to be their headquarters until they were like, later, bye, bye. Now they're in Dallas.

[B]

I know. Smart move. Tax tax wise. Smart move. Allegedly.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a classic big corporation move. Which lie.

[B]

I'm like, trevor, should we have HQ in Texas? But my whole family's there. I got reasons.

[A]

I don't blame all the companies moving to Texas is like, I get it, I get it. It's well played.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the crazy Illinois is brutal.

[B]

Nowadays, they got nothing. Oh, yeah. Minnesota and Illinois are probably no.

[A]

Indiana had one of the biggest net migrations happen over the past five years of any state in the United States. And it's like, why Indiana? Because I get Tennessee, I get North Carolina, I get Florida, I get Texas, I get Arizona, I get Idaho. But why Indiana? That's because the state laws are dramatically different and the taxes are dramatically different. So it was people moving from Illinois to Indiana. It wasn't people moving from Arizona to Indiana. It was Illinois to Indiana.

[B]

Like, bye, bye.

[A]

Yeah. So some of the, like, the biggest growth areas are right over because Chicago and like the whole Chicago land butts up to Indiana. Like, some of the biggest development projects are just over the line in Indiana.

[B]

Like, literally right there.

[A]

Yeah. Because they've had this explosion in population and businesses and everything.

[B]

It's smart.

[A]

Yeah, I get it.

[B]

I mean, why wouldn't you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, I'm literally like, Trevor, my whole family is in Texas and that's like my heritage and my mom's like. I mean, the development, as you know, outside of Houston is insane.

[A]

Are you from Texas?

[B]

We're from Oklahoma.

[A]

You're from Oklahoma?

[B]

Yeah. I spent a lot of my childhood in Texas.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And loud. A proud Texan like my grandfather. He's the reason I was exposed to the industry when I was young. Cause he had his own little trucking company.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

He had a Freightliner. When I met Trevor, I thought, he'll be proud because Trevor's first purchase was a Freightliner. His first truck was a Peterbilt, but that was inherited with the company.

[A]

So you weren't when you met Trevor. It wasn't cold turkey to this world.

[B]

It wasn't cold turkey, but.

[A]

But as an adult.

[B]

I'd never seen it as an adult. And the side of construction that I was very familiar with was architect and design. Like I knew, you know, like, who's at the ribbon cutting. Yeah, the designer, the architect, the pretty people. The pretty people. Except all my people are very pretty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm literally joking with our crew this year. I have a picture from last year on a job site and I'm like, we're doing a calendar. You guys belong on a 12 month calendar. Nice poses, guys. Headshots, machines.

[A]

I mean, no, I joke with people about that all the time. It's like I really should do that at some point.

[B]

Absolutely. A calendar of the people. Right. But I want like pose and like fun. Like our guys, they got their headshots taken last year. So we did headshots for all of our team, our field crews, with the machines and what they do and the shovels and they didn't know what to do.

[A]

Yeah, you have to.

[B]

It's pretty amazing though. They loved it.

[A]

It's a weird skill I've developed, taking photographs of people that don't want their photographs taken. And I've never had their photographs taken. It's a skill I didn't think I'd be developing ever.

[B]

But yeah, it takes a certain magic.

[A]

It does. And it's hard for me to put it into words. And I still struggle with it. I'm seven years doing it and it's still a struggle. Yeah. But when you get it right, it's really, really fun.

[B]

You get it. Yeah. So we had an amazing photographer and she just was like, work at supermodels, you know, like where they were like dancing and their wives all reached out to us after this and they were like, hey, could I please have a digital copy of my husband's Headshot. That is the first picture I have of him smiling.

[A]

And it's.

[B]

And I'm like, absolutely. It's amazing.

[A]

Oh, I make that point all the time. Like, when. I don't know. Sometimes people dispute. Oh, our people aren't on social media. It's like, yeah, that's probably right. Maybe. Maybe this crew isn't. These guys aren't. But their family probably is. Their spouses probably are.

[B]

Yes. And they want to be prouder.

[A]

Their kids definitely are. So when I get a comment on a photo, that's like, that's my dad.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Those are the coolest ones.

[B]

The win.

[A]

Yeah. Or that's my mom. Whoever it is.

[B]

The win.

[A]

So, so cool. And from a. Like, a morale standpoint and a retention standpoint, you can't buy that.

[B]

And your future workforce.

[A]

Yeah, that too.

[B]

So, literally, we did a video. So we started the headshot thing a year ago, and I loved. I loved watching them love putting press, like, being photographed.

[A]

Yeah. They. Once you warm them up to it, once they get used to it, they enjoy it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then some.

[B]

Well, you know, my guys are gonna, like, be used to it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But, like, Missy's always out there, too.

[A]

There's a weird thing too, where they have to play it cool.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they cannot. They cannot act excited. They've, like, I'm not excited to have my photograph taken. But inside, like, who doesn't like a good photograph? We are all as selfish as it gets.

[B]

We love it.

[A]

We love seeing ourselves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They. Nine times out of ten, they love it. Every once in a while, somebody genuinely loves it.

[B]

Their wives loved it. And then at our Christmas party this year, so we did our first, like, staff spotlight or crew highlight. We're gonna do it more next year. I just wanted to test it out. Like, how would this go? Would they feel comfortable if we did some storytelling around them? Why they're in the industry, you know, the pride they put in their work every day. And so we did it on Tyler. It's on YouTube. And I wasn't doing it for the views. I was doing it for instilling pride in, like, what he does every day. And watching him was great. At the Christmas party, his wife came up to me and she's like, I just want to thank you for doing that spotlight on Tyler. And she's like, our whole family watched it at the holidays, and our kids are so proud that their dad is on YouTube. And they've watched it and they've been like, that's my dad. We're so proud like, he's on YouTube, so that means something, right? And that stuck with me.

[A]

I'm on YouTube.

[B]

I mean, slow it down. That stuck with me. And then we watched at our Christmas party. They're like, oh. All the guys started joking, like, you know, because they're teasing, like, oh, come on, put it up there. Put it up there. Tyler's famous. Had, like, 200 views or something. I don't know. And watching, I'm just like, this is the magic, like, right here. Like, a wife proud of her husband. He's on YouTube. The kids proud of dad. And, like, what he does. And he tells the story of why he does it. I mean, it's how he puts food on their table every day, you know, it was beautiful.

[A]

If that story's not told, a lot of times it just becomes like, dad's always gone.

[B]

That's what I don't want. I want the kids to love what their parents do.

[A]

But. And that's what's cool about this world, the built world in general, is that it's very easy for people to understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. We're not. This is not litigation.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, we're not trying to tell the story of litigators or of insurance salesmen or gritty humans. It's pretty simple. It's pretty straightforward.

[B]

Amazing humans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That moment had a huge impact on me this year. Of, like, because sometimes I question myself, like, what am I doing in this industry? Like, I'm just a different duck. Right? I'm not a dirt person. I ask silly questions. I go in, like someone told me, as when we got our WBEMB certification. They're like, oh, it's. It's going to be terrible. You're going to hate it. And, like, they're like, wait till you have to deal with all the politics, whatever. And I go in. Bright eye, bushy tail. Like, what are you talking about? This is going to be awesome. Right? And so sometimes I definitely struggle and just feeling silly, like, what am I doing? You know? But those moments where my guy, like, our guy, our company's operator, kids and wife are proud of what he does, and they understand what he does. I was like, okay, I've made an impact. He's doing something 100% that mattered to me. Right? That was success, not closing. I mean, closing contracts is obviously success for me because that's what I do to make sure they have work next year and they keep putting food on the table. But that moment, I was like, this is what I live for when I feel silly and I'm looked at sometimes as silly. Right? Like, what is she doing here? How are the kids? Like, when I walk into rooms, it's like, how are the kids? It's like, I mean, how are the business and how are my people? You know what I mean? The perception of what is she doing here? Right. And I'm sure I create some of that with my own insecurities, but how.

[A]

Did you meet Trevor?

[B]

Originally, I was good friends with his brother's wife.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I stalked him on Facebook and he had hockey hair.

[A]

Oh, did he?

[B]

And in Minnesota, like, what's hockey hair? Hockey hair is like, they play hockey and so they let it like grow out long underneath the helmets. Right. Okay.

[A]

I assume that.

[B]

So kind of like brush. He doesn't have that anymore, as you can see.

[A]

No, no. But does he have like, straight hair? Yeah, yeah. That's how my hair grows out. It's really good hockey kind of curls at the end, but you think you're cool during. And then I look at pictures of myself and I'm like, I look like.

[B]

An asshole, but douchey.

[A]

Yeah, we're past that point now. It's. We're past that. Right.

[B]

So a friend's daughter was like, oh, my gosh, you should date my uncle Trevor. And I was like, your uncle Trevor is what? Your uncle Trevor, he's young. Like, you know, because he's four years younger than me. And I go on his Facebook and I was like, oh, your uncle Trevor is hot. He's got the Minnesota hockey hair. And so we just started chatting on Facebook. And quite honestly, he like stiffed me a couple times. Like, ignored my messages, which I was like, hello? But he was working. He was in a bobcat all night, excavator all day. He was just starting. He had the dumpster company and it kind of like was putting it to the side and starting the dirt business.

[A]

So when you met him, he was digging holes already?

[B]

No, he was doing additions and like, he was doing pull up demos.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

He had the dumpster business and he'd had his best year with the dumpster business in 2013.

[A]

When did he start? How old is he? When he started?

[B]

2019, 2009. He started after the recession? Yeah. And it was like in the red. It was a business he purchased. He went to like, gosh, like eight, 10 banks and they all said no to him. It's like, help me buy this. Help me buy this dumpster business. And he finally found a bank that said yes. And it was in the red and it had the previous owner had been dumping trash on property that his dad owned. And the city was like, we're fining you 2,000 a day until this property's cleaned up. So he's like, I'm going to take the dumpster business and clean up that land for his first job and then bring it up to profitable. It took him three or four years. The waste business is really tough. And then after the recession, so he was basically like, crazy doing it. But he figured it out and he really did a good job at just building. I mean, we still have customers calling us, like, seven, eight years later for that one time. They worked with Trevor. He was driving the truck. He was driving the 1999 Peterbilt mechanic, invoice, customer service and dispatch. I mean, now we have like four people, five staff doing what he was doing as one guy in one truck. So he had built that up to its most profitable year in 2013. And in January 2014, that's when we met. And he was kind of like, I had bought. He had a bobcat. And he partnered in buying his first excavator. He split it with someone and was like, I want to get into excavating. And the reason he did that is because as a dumpster company, he was going up to these demos and watching them be done inefficiently.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he's a dirt guy. Like, he grew up around dirt. His dad's a land developer. He understood it. So he's like, I want to go in and do this more efficient.

[A]

And he's a man. You think you can do everything, dude. Yeah, I can do that better.

[B]

I actually envy your egos.

[A]

I have to catch myself all the time. I'll be watching some. I was watching some, like the documentary in the Olympic runners the other day. It's like, ah, that doesn't look that hard. And I'm like, the fuck am I even saying? Who do I think I am?

[B]

But it's amazing. It's a skill. It's a skill, like ego. Like, I envy masculine ego. Sometimes I feel like Keaton Turner one time made a comment on one of my things. Like, you gotta just be like a dude and go in and be like, I can do this better. Yeah, something like that. And I was just like, it's not.

[A]

It's not always a good thing. You need both. Yeah, you really do need.

[B]

You need the balance.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So he kind of just said, you know, I could be more efficient. Because he was watching. This was literally how his brain works. Like, he's got an engineering numbers brain. Right. Obviously, we're opposites there. So he was watching them load the dumpsters inefficiently and doing the math on the cubic yards. Right. And just like, how much more money and how many less dumpsters could I do this demo? And then he was hauling it out to Vanko, owned by Virginia, and he was seeing Vaughn out there in his Tahoe, like, up counting, Right. He was like, counting the trucks coming in and, like, how much was being dumped in his landfill. And so he just started putting this all together of, like, there's something here. Right? There's something with the trash business, but there's something with the excavation business, and there's a way to bring it together. So the January that I was hustling him to come meet me, like, hey, you want to hang out? I'm working. I work till midnight last night. So he was just starting the excavating. So he was doing demos, pool demos and stuff like that.

[A]

And in a world like this is a very seasonal world, so when you've got to make hay while the sun shining.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So the hours in the summer are long.

[B]

Are crazy. But it was January, Aaron.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

Well, so don't try to give them excuses for not answering the call.

[A]

Yeah, but as a business owner, the hours are long.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I have to manufacture answers for people that like. So what else do you do? It's like, what do you think? This is it.

[B]

We don't have hobbies.

[A]

This is what I do.

[B]

It's so sad, but I don't want.

[A]

To do anything else. I know. I just want to do this.

[B]

We get made fun of. Trevor does, especially because he doesn't hunt. He doesn't fish. I mean, we're in Minnesota. Like, dudes are gone in November. And girls, females too. Like, they love hunting. They want deer, they want. I want to do all these things. I mean, Trevor snowmobiles. So he does like that I was going to say. And a friend of mine was like, well, so what is your hobby?

[A]

And I'm like, I've got a business and children.

[B]

Yeah. So I started line dancing with a friend.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Honky tonk, old school line dancing at a VFW bar down the road. That is my new hobby.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

And this guy who's passionate about keeping line dancing alive, How's Trevor's line dancing? His first time is coming on Saturday nights.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

A group of us girls, we decided we wanted a hobby. Right? Like, how embarrassing.

[A]

That's when it all goes down.

[B]

Nothing. So this is what we found. This is our hobby. We all have our fancy boots and we're doing it. So Trevor's first time's on Saturday. I have a feeling all the husbands are just gonna ditch and go to the bar, but we will not be moving off that dance floor.

[A]

Was. Was you getting involved in the business? Probably not at all in the cards originally. When did that enter the chat?

[B]

Um, obviously the hockey hair was the initial reason.

[A]

But. But you. But.

[B]

But when did it enter the conversation? I had my dream job.

[A]

Yeah, you had a. Like a career.

[B]

People didn't. A lot of people don't know that about me. Like, I had worked nine, eight or nine years to be in fundraising and within the nonprofit sector, taking on contracts. I had a contract in Chicago. I had a contract in la. My dad was an absolute incredible fundraiser for nonprofits. He ran $30 million campaigns. He was so good at speaking and, you know, rallying a cause and raising the funds necessary to do that. And so I was his marketing assistant When I was 15, 16, I got fired once for wearing a jean jacket to work. I'll never forget that. And it was from Abercrombie. And I'm like, dad, this is from Abercrombie and Fitch. Like, you don't understand.

[A]

Any idea how much this is?

[B]

Side note? So I was his marketing assistant and I was fascinated by my dad's skill, by his gift, by what he could do. He was just amazing. And so I followed in his footsteps. I was in the nonprofit sector for nine years and had just landed my dream job, which was I was a major donor officer. So I was working on with our major donors that gave a million plus to the organization. For a nonprofit I really cared about is downtown Minneapolis Urban Ventures. They helped families get out of generational poverty. Nine building campus. My mentor was Art Erickson, who started the organization in one little building. And he built it to a nine building campus that Ryan Companies actually built. They're big donors there. And it was like the dream. I literally hit the dream, like the jackpot. And then I met Trevor and it all went downhill. I left my dream job to talk about dumpsters and trash.

[A]

Yeah, what's that? Converse. Like, how does it come up? How does that.

[B]

So the honest truth is I saw something with the dumpster business and my mind started to kind of like resonate of like, huh, Trevor was gonna leave that kind of in the yard. Cause he was done. I mean, he was burnt out. He cleaned out all that garbage. I mean, he had been through the wringer and he's like, I'm gonna get into dirt and demo and that's gonna be more profitable and I'm gonna be efficient and all things. So that thing was sitting in a yard, looking at it, sitting in a yard. And I was like, what would happen if I applied my skills, you know, to business instead of nonprofits? Like, could I be successful here? And instead of asking for money for the causes I care about, give back to the causes I care about. That was literally my whole intention. I didn't know anything about blue collar grit. I did know my grandfather. Like, he had a trucking business. He had two trucks. He was a superintendent out in the oil fields in Texas. I knew enough, but not much. It was more like I'd spent time in grandpa's shop. Right?

[A]

Yeah. You knew he worked hard.

[B]

I knew he worked super hard. And the girls in the shop were on calendars on the wall.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Legit. That was my experience.

[A]

Those calendars still exist in Europe.

[B]

Do they really?

[A]

Everywhere. Everywhere.

[B]

In like the mechanic shops and everything.

[A]

Every job trailer.

[B]

That's why I want one of my guys.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's time to bring it back.

[A]

It's not men.

[B]

Let's bring it back. No, I want our dudes. I want to see them. Yeah. Like firefighter style. So I started. So then I went to him and I like, was like, I want to take on the dumpster company. And at first he's like, probably thinking. And I said, no, we need your income.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Because I feel like initially he was like, I don't know if you should quit your job yet. Maybe wait six months. I'm like, no, I want to quit my job and I want to do this.

[A]

So it wasn't him saying, hey, I need you to help over here because I'm over here. You were like, I want that.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, I want that. Does that surprise you?

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm curious.

[A]

I don't know if that's the read from people from where you are right now, but it makes. I get it. I understand it.

[B]

What's the read? What do you think the read of people is? I'm very fascinated now.

[A]

I don't even know.

[B]

Next year I'm coming out with a very unapologetically transparent read. Personal brand, like a rebrand.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

It's gonna be really fun. I'm so fascinated by perception right now because I'm kicking it in its pants next year.

[A]

Well, I used to pay a lot more attention to it. And I guess as I've gotten a Little bit further down the road.

[B]

You don't care so much.

[A]

I don't care so much.

[B]

Healthy place to be.

[A]

Yeah. I'm just doing. Because if I do my thing, I'm the only one that can do my thing. And I don't really want to be influenced by other people and their thing. It's not that I don't care about their thing. I just want to do my thing. And I think as the business has grown too, I've started to really understand what's important. And I'm just like, I don't have the time. I don't have the mental bandwidth to be over here thinking about this person or this opinion or whatever it is. I need to focus on thing.

[B]

Of course. But I think for me, from a personal branding perspective, I want to know what those trigger like. And I used to get triggered by them.

[A]

I think you. You've gotten swept up in the past with that.

[B]

I didn't say that.

[A]

Whole world. Yeah. Now I'm like, I have too. I think everybody in that world has.

[B]

We all have those moments.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Because it's. We're human. And it hurts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, especially when you have genuine intention and you're working really hard for something to care about and someone, like, knocks that knocks you off your stool.

[A]

But that's what. That's what has frustrated me with some, like you and some people that's like, have you ever met her? No. Okay, well, just spend. Spend time. You'll understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And especially have you ever met her and Trevor?

[B]

Yeah. Like, Trevor's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. It makes a lot more sense when you know both of them.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

And you've seen the business, but Trevor loves the mystery.

[B]

And I'm just like, the mystery's killing me over here.

[A]

You guys are opposites.

[B]

It's so good. So now I've become a student of a really amazing personal branding expert. Like, globally, he's incredible. And he's like, you want to know what your haters say? Those are triggers. You can build a personal brand off the good and the bad. And he's like, those are your shadow words that you want to find. Like, I've been called disingenuine or attention seeking or this or that. And he's like, you want to understand the philosophy of that so you can come out and own that.

[A]

Well, I've done that. Yeah. It's like, like vanguarding is the term. I think of it. But, like, if I say I don't know what I'm doing, then if you say he doesn't know what he's doing. He's like, yeah, he said that already. Then it's like, oh, congratulations. Wow, good for you. Oh, you really got him. You said he doesn't. It's like, yeah, I don't. I don't know what I'm doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't. I'm not an expert on the industry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I don't know how to move dirt.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know how to run a. Run a company. Not like a company in general. I'm still trying to figure that out. But I feel like the older you get, the more people in general struggle, the more experience people have, I think the harder it becomes to lean into that. Whereas I've had the benefit of doing this in my 20s, so it hasn't been that hard to say, I don't know what I'm doing for sure, because I don't know what I'm doing.

[B]

Right. Right. And for me, it's like I'm trying to win. Work with. Right. Like, and put out that perception, which actually, I regret some of that. Like, trying to portray that I was something when I was learning.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[B]

But the pressure that we put on ourselves to perform and to be that someone before you are that someone. I kind of just fell victim to that.

[A]

And, you know, my favorite feature on social media is the mute feature. Have you muted a lot of people?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I don't even follow anyone anymore.

[A]

It's awesome.

[B]

I don't know what's happening. I'm so out of touch. People send me screenshots of things happening, and I'm just like, it's.

[A]

But it's. And it's like, how do you. Personal about it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just. It's just I need to focus. Yeah. And I don't have the discipline to not scroll and look at shit. I need to be on social media every day for what I'm doing professionally. I don't have the discipline to not fuck off. So I need to make a system that keeps me away from.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

And so that's been actually really good for me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it has nothing to do with anybody but me.

[B]

You'll have to show me how to mute people. So I've never.

[A]

So you haven't muted people?

[B]

I blocked people.

[A]

No, you need to mute people, which.

[B]

Feels kind of weird, too, because then it's almost saying you care that much.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's just kind of silly.

[A]

Like, why would I care?

[B]

I just don't even well for me right now. Now once I get back full time. Cause, you know, had three kids in five years, so I don't even have the time to scroll and.

[A]

Three kids.

[B]

Three kids in five years.

[A]

I thought it was two, three. No.

[B]

We had little surprise, Mrs. Aubrey. A year and a half ago. Girl, boy, girl.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I'm living in the fog, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm trying to feel smart, be smart, do smart. I'm in. One of. What everyone's telling me is one of the most difficult, difficult seasons when you're building a family is right now. It's very foggy. It's a lot. Well, it's three dependents that literally can't do anything on their own.

[A]

It is. I've thought a lot about that. I don't have kids, but now I'm around people with children, and it's like a dog you can leave at home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A child you can't.

[B]

No.

[A]

And they're just. And then they. The bigger they get, the more they're putting shit in their mouth and running off.

[B]

It's just boom, boom.

[A]

Like, eating it. Like, just falling on stuff.

[B]

I told Trevor I think a funny video or recording would be recording me when I'm at home with them for a full day. And how many times I referee. Don't put that in your mouth. Put that down. Stop hitting your sister.

[A]

She's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[B]

And then he's like, I don't understand why you come into the office and you're, like, a little disconnected. I'm like, I need a minute to, like.

[A]

Well, I was talking to a friend of mine, too. He was. Because he just had a kid, and he's like, yeah. I've noticed some of these moms, like, they talk in child because they're only interacting with small children all the time. And it's like, I hadn't even thought of that. But yes, like, they start to like. Yeah, because you're.

[B]

I've done it. Hi, Ms. Pam. I mean, hi, Pam. Welcome to work today. It's really foggy, and it's been really hard for me because I have had to accept showing up different. And it's been devastating because I'm used to showing up. Like, one of the things are coming out when I talk about those shadow words that people have accused me of, like, trying to be perfect. Right. So I'm a. I'm like a recovering perfectionist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm. I'm recovering from that right now.

[A]

I was just talking to Jason about.

[B]

This the other day, learning how to just be right and knowing the perfection is in showing up and doing the best I can do every day. And that's one of the things with Kudos. You're perfect is you're posing with these trucks and your vest is too clean. I mean, all the comments. Right. So now I'm like going back and being like, I'm going to own that. That I was. I'm a recovering perfectionist.

[A]

Where does perfectionism come from? Why. Why do people have. I've never struggled with it. I've. I've. I am.

[B]

I'm so far from starting to research it and really deep dive deep.

[A]

Were either of your parents like that?

[B]

Yes, my dad. High performance excellence. Everything perfect. I think some of it for me comes from being a pastor's daughter. Right.

[A]

That front row.

[B]

But I loved that shit. Right. I wasn't like, I hate. I'm like, okay, we're gonna be in the front row. All our outfits are gonna match across our legs. I'm gonna go up there, I'm gonna play the piano perfectly. Like, Right. It just. From a young age, performance was a part of our upbringing. Like, we are in front of people. We are on stage.

[A]

Your dad was a pastor.

[B]

He was a pastor in the Bible Belt.

[A]

That's interesting. In Oklahoma.

[B]

At a megachurch.

[A]

And you're somewhat growing up in the public eye at that point, then.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

I don't think people would explain it, but that's exactly what it is.

[B]

Totally. If I screw up at some school, the private school that's connected to the church, principal's calling my dad down the hall.

[A]

Oh, that's fascinating. Wow.

[B]

So it's really deep in me and where I'm learning because I really questioned a lot of my decisions this past year. I had a really hard year and how I showed up as a manager. And I'm like, this is not making sense. This isn't me. This doesn't feel like me. Like, what's going on? And as I've been unraveling, was the perfectionism showing up in my management style. It's terrible. It's crippling for the people around you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you think it's empower in your mind. You think you're empowering them to reach their peak performance.

[A]

Well. And it's. Yeah. Because it's unreasonable.

[B]

It's so unreasonable. It's unattainable and it's not attainable. But because you're striving for it and you think it is, you've deceived yourself into Thinking it's possible. So you keep going and then everyone around you is negatively affected by that. It's one of the biggest I've done a. I feel, I mean, I guess we'd have to ask the team and Trevor. I feel like there's a lot of great things I've done for the business over the last 10 years, but this was one of the disservices I did to the business. One of my weaknesses showed up and I thought it was just affecting me. And when I realized, like, okay, now it's coming out on team members and it's crippling them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was devastating for me as a.

[A]

Like, I think a business will only grow as much as the leadership grows. And so that's why I've been so diligent about growing myself, because I know that the pace of the business, it can only move as fast as I.

[B]

Can move and I'll catch up to you.

[A]

And it can run me over.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Because then you can, you can, then you can create something that runs you over at the same time. Which has happened to like some very notable people. Like I was talking to our team about Steve Jobs, for example.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He was fired from Apple.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Apple ran him over. Yeah. And he was brought back in. But he was a different leader before and after. There was a lot of growing in between that then allowed him to do what Apple's known for now, I think after he was brought back in. But that's why. Yeah. I've just been so careful about really. I've been really focused, especially over the past few years on, I think everybody's fucked up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is no escaping it.

[B]

Yeah. No perfect human.

[A]

And I read a book that was even, you know, say you have the most perfect childhood. That's great. But you can, you can inherit trauma.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

From prior generations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From your parents. Parents. And. And it had like a hundred examples. So it wasn't this theoretical thing. It's like. Yeah. I've been studying this with my entire life. Thousands and thousands, Thousands of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, holy smokes. And that, that dictates your, your relationships, your life, your business, everything. And it can dictate to you your entire life. And you don't even know and you won't know.

[B]

It's subconscious. So Trevor and I have talked about that, like some of our subconscious patterns that it's like we don't know where it came from. Probably the generational trauma, probably some things happened that triggered it, kept it growing and growing. But we have to focus on those things. So to be honest with you, hearing you say, like, I've been so focused on growing myself, it's like I didn't focus on that at all.

[A]

Yeah, because you're. For 10 years, you're focused on your people and your kids.

[B]

So then I'm a hero, right?

[A]

You're focused on everybody else.

[B]

That's what I told myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, then I'm a good leader.

[A]

I've seen women do this a lot.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I've noticed that we ignore ourselves. Yeah. I don't know if it's just a male versus man versus woman thing, but I've noticed a lot of. Especially recently, like, it's just pouring in others, pouring in others, pouring in others, and then there's nothing there for them.

[B]

Empty.

[A]

Which then sets everything back ironically.

[B]

Yes. So truthfully, we had a Steve Jobs moment this year where Trevor had to sit me down and be like, do you need to go? And I'm like, what? And I'm like, what are you talking about? It's our business. It's our people. And when he kind of, like, helped me see what was happening in the perfectionistic management style and the pressure I was putting on myself and I was crumbling because I wasn't investing in me. So you almost bring everyone down with you. You know, when you're in a leadership position, you have to really watch that and know when it's time to take some time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was like, if this doesn't get better, do we have this discussion of you being done? And that was gut wrenching, but so healing and humbling. That moment where it's like, okay, I need a minute. I never took any maternity leaves after my kids, which social media praised me for. They praise hustle culture. Even if it's not healthy. That was not healthy. A good friend would be like, yo, not good.

[A]

Like, when you had your kids, how quickly back Days.

[B]

Yeah, days.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Isabel and I were getting a permit from the Department of Labor when she was four days old, five days old.

[A]

I remember. I think I remember you telling me.

[B]

I post that picture and everyone's like, like, like, rah, rah. Yes. And I'm just like. And that was filling. I let that external validation, like, fill my cup. And external validation is great, but it doesn't mean what you're doing is great for yourself. But this is what's crazy. So Tucker, I took maybe like a week. He was born in October. Right. Busy season. But Aubrey is where I really screwed up, because that was My third child in four years, and I'd never given my body time, mental time to recover. Right. And to find my new normal. And my only identity was in being a business owner. That was the only identity I knew. And that was praise I was praised for. And so I. Like, fuck, I gotta stay doing that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so Aubrey was born in April of 2023. 3. And that was a big year where a lot of projects were put on pause because of inflation and interest rates. And so for Aubry, she was coming up April of last year. And no, Erin, I'm getting my ears wrong. No, she turned one this. Yeah, yeah. 2023. Okay. So a week before she was born, I was like, I'm going to take three weeks off. I'm going to take maternity leave. I deserve that. And really, our office team was like, you need to take some time. Like, this is unhealthy. Luckily, I have strong mamas in this office, and they were like, you got to go. Like, take some time for you. So I had it all planned out, and a week before Aubrey was born, our pipeline was full for the summer. So as business development, that's my core responsibility here. My job was done, like, for a moment. Right. So I could take some time off. So we find out a week before Aubrey was born, Trevor came to me and he's like, hey, this project got put on pause. And I was like, ooh, okay. I'm like, okay. But we still have the other two, so that will carry us through. So I can still take my time. Two days later, hey, that second project.

[A]

Put on pause, and that's what people don't understand. I feel like in the construction world is that you can get the contract. You can have a date to go. Sometimes you can go, and then they can just at any time say, we change our mind.

[B]

We're put on pause.

[A]

Yeah. We're just.

[B]

The developer out of our hands, doesn't want to go. A law changes with rent. So a law changed with rent prices in St. Paul, Minnesota, and developers put all their projects on pause. So I'm like, I start getting, like, Alicia Bretzel from Brux in Pennsylvania culture. Just.

[A]

Just within a few weeks.

[B]

They're amazing.

[A]

Yeah. See, her and AJ have come out twice. Dirt World Summit. Okay.

[B]

But do you know now with the three kids, I. I'm a little strapped.

[A]

But next year, I think they've got more kids.

[B]

I know. Shoot. She's like, superhuman.

[A]

I don't know how they do.

[B]

No, she. She has family clothes, so she's like, I good help. Family clothes.

[A]

They're. They're another one. I just want to spend a day with them.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I just. Can I just live with you for a day?

[B]

Me? Can I come with and be like, can I please know how you do it? But she's told me they have family close, and I'm like, gosh, I literally am begging my mom, who's in Houston, like, come move in with us so that I could make it happen. So a week before Aubrey was born, this is actually hard to talk about, and I haven't really, like, gone on record to talk about it because I think it's tied to just an unraveling for me and, like, a really painful season. But it's good for me to talk about because people need to hear the unhealthy side of not taking care of yourself and putting the business first, because the business could have been fine. I don't know. I will never know because I jumped right in and I didn't give myself time. So then two days before Aubrey was born, the third project from our pipeline was gone. And it was our biggest year. We had just recruited some amazing people, like, dream team, right? People were walking in our doors wanting to work for us, hearing about us, hearing how we are to our people. So we had, like, this dream team surfacing and a dream pipe crew, like, and if you don't put your pipe crew to work, they gone, right? So Trevor came to me, and then Aubrey was born, and I, we went to a restaurant at a bar, and he. We were both kind of, like, in tears, almost like, we gotta go to work. And he looked at me. Cause all the relationships are pretty much mine. You know, I do all of the business development. I'm super connected and have just built amazing relationships in the industry. And he kind of looked at me like, I'm so sorry. Like, what are we going to do? Yeah, you're the one. And so I strapped Aubrey on my back and went to the U of m, went to CS McCrossen, went and met and just cried the blues. Almost like, hey, with Aubrey in the seat. Or I was wearing her at one of the meetings. Ames was at that meeting wearing her on a sack and being like, we need work. Can you put a pipe crew to work? Can you put a excavation crew to work? Can we do footings for the primes? Right? Because we have the ability to be nimble and kind of go to primes and say, can you subcontract us out? Well, they were all slow, too, but lucky Enough. We sat down with CS McCrossen. Tom's a neighbor of ours, And I just said, we got to put this pipe crew to work. And he was like, funny enough, we have got so much utility backlog. And he put us on site, literally in the nick of time, where we would have had to lay off all of our people. And I was just like, like, okay, we made it. But by then, Aubrey's three, four weeks old, and then it's our first DOT job, and we have compliance to figure out. We have this, we have that. So did I take a break? No. And that just really. I really should have. And now I just kept going. Right. And again, there's a lot of things happening here. There's the perfectionism. My identity is tied to my success as a business owner. I don't know how to have my identity tied to being a successful wife or mother, which is important. I don't know what that looks like. So I'm just going to go over here.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's what you're comfortable with.

[B]

That's where I'm comfortable. This is really uncomfortable for me. And I don't get any accolades here. Allegedly. You actually do. That's your future. Right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

No one's saying, like, yes, good job staying at home in your pajamas today, missy, and, like, hugging your babies. No one's saying that online. Like, manufactured motherhood is. You do it all, and that's what you're. That's what you're given praise for. So that's what I did. And now I'm hoping next year, as I come out with my personal brand, a more unapologetically transparent brand of. I'm looking not for validation anymore, but for meaning in the people that are in my sphere, including my family and my husband. And if you praise me or if you don't, I'm still gonna tell that story. It's so important.

[A]

Well, it's. It's extra complicated because you and Trevor, you have this relationship and family, but this business that takes priority.

[B]

Yeah. That provides for families.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sure. But I'm sure there's, like, significant amount of time that can go with you maybe not thinking about the relationship.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, for sure.

[A]

Because you're. You're together all the time. For sure. That doesn't mean shit.

[B]

I'll be like, trevor, we need a date night. And he's like, we've been together all week.

[A]

And I'm like, yeah, exactly. Yes.

[B]

But I want to, like, hang out. I want to go line dancing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's super easy to let that go and to let that get by. And it's so dangerous because then, like, for me, then we're not living out our own value of family.

[A]

This is. This whole thing is what drives me nuts about the women in construction conversation.

[B]

Don't get me started here.

[A]

Well, because it's so. It's so unrealistic.

[B]

It's unhealthy.

[A]

It's. It's. It's.

[B]

It ignores healthy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's it. And that's what. That's what. That's what drives me nuts. It's like, we need more women in construction. We need more women in construction. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, cool. What hours do your people average? How many hours a week do they do?

[B]

What does that actually look like?

[A]

80 weekends, nights shifts. Wait, they have two young. So this woman has two young kids? Or what happens when she's pregnant? Like, what do you do? What are you doing for her?

[B]

And what is the societal expectation?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

She goes to the doctor's appointments. She picks them up from daycare. That is reality.

[A]

Jessica, who runs my life until, like, two months ago when she selfishly had a child. And I say that very jokingly, but so. So it was my first climb, like, around somebody pregnant, like, close. From, like, a working work standpoint. She has appointments all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had no idea. I thought, you go to the doctor once in a while and they're like, yep, good.

[B]

Show up after nine months and have that baby.

[A]

I have no idea. I don't know. I love that for you, it's all the time. Yeah, it was. No, it's no problem for us because we're. We're flexible. Just do whatever you need to do. But I was thinking. I was like, if you had a normal job and you had two weeks off a year that you can't really use during the summer because it's the busy season. Like, how does this even math? How do you do this?

[B]

It doesn't math.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

It doesn't math. And I brought up, like, we were fortunate enough to be in Las Vegas for Equipment World's Contractor of the Year program. And we were in a room of 10 contractors from around the country who were amazing. And we started talking about this. My narrative and my conversation around women in construction has changed. And I've actually gone silent on it because I want to study and understand what am I going to stand for? Because what I stood for was really unhealthy, and it didn't work. And it sets unrealistic expectations on what women can and can't do. Or men that are single dads, you know? I know single dad. It's parents.

[A]

See.

[B]

So I took some time, I'm taking time to really develop that. But I was sitting in this room with all these contractors and one was a woman owned and LED contractor. And I brought up, I said, we need to talk about shifts. And I know it's uncomfortable, but the women in construction movement doesn't work if the shifts expected are sun up to sundown, which is what our industry counts on. And it's been able to work because amazing men were able to go in the 50s. It was a societal norm that women were home and the man went to work. Right. So that created the structure. Don't you tiptoe it.

[A]

Whatever you need to do, you get what you need.

[B]

That's our super single mama, Rendy. She's the reason our roll off company runs. Oh, yes. So I'm sitting in the room and I, I literally said it out of my mouth and I thought. And one of the contractors was like, you can't do that. And I'm like, but why? Well, what are the guys gonna say? So it's favoritism now. So she gets to have a special shift because she's a. We gotta be equals. And I'm like, but we're not. Like, the guys can't breastfeed their child.

[A]

That's.

[B]

This is, this is a scientific difference here, lady.

[A]

But this, this is the. And it's like, how has this become crazy to say? Like, that's what, that's what I scratch.

[B]

My head, I'm down on. Well, I wouldn't say. I guess everyone actually, I'm gonna say it, I think felt like everyone was like when I said it. And so then I immediately, because of my perfectionist. Because I was a perfectionist at the time. Now I'm recovering, I'm recovering from that addiction. But I was like, ooh, I better not say that because that's not accepted by the popular folks. I should just stay. Women in construction, you know, what it took for me was our female driver Lisa, who is amazing. Her driving career, put her kids through college, got her out of the trailer park, which we now give back to like, she's a boss, right? She came up to me, she's like, I don't agree with this whole women in construction movement. I want one of your sweatshirts because I have that woman in construction sweatshirt. But I don't agree with it. And I was like, What?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's like, you need to be home with those babies. And I'm like, what? Like, don't you need me? Like, don't you need me here doing dispatch and customer service and running payroll and all things? She's like, I don't know. She's like, it's just not realistic. She's like, what I did was hard, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless things change. And she's like, I sacrificed a lot for what she was able to do. She's here telling me, as a woman in construction, hey, your woman in construction conversation, I don't fully agree with it. And also, you need to take a pause and go home and be with your family for a second.

[A]

But that's what I've observed with the women in construction. Thing is, the women in construction aren't stoked on the women in construction thing. It's like, wait a minute. What's going on here? Wouldn't they be the ones like, this is awesome. Finally, they're the ones saying, just keep me out of. We don't want to be. And I was talking to Kelly Veidt about this yesterday. She was saying the field and the office are different.

[B]

Very.

[A]

You can't apply the field to the office. You can't apply the office to the field.

[B]

You can't.

[A]

And I feel like that is part of it. Like, we're trying to apply the office to the field, but it's like, no, you need somebody in the ditch sometimes on Christmas morning, sometimes Christmas Eve, overnight in the fucking cold. Like, you need that. But then you also need the people in office doing the damn payroll, making sure the insurance is squared away, getting the business development done.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You need that.

[B]

So they have work.

[A]

So they have work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're. I think the industry can't forget who's paying the bills. No, it's the person in the ditch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the person, you know, moving that machine the money. Yeah. That's a bill. That's all that's billable. This office isn't billable.

[B]

Trevor reminds me of that.

[A]

Yeah. But. But. But. So I think that the office needs to have that understanding. But. But the overall business needs to have the understanding of everybody here plays a part.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just because somebody works in the office is not lesser than. Just because somebody's in the field and they use certain language. It's not lesser than.

[B]

Yeah. It's all.

[A]

We're all a team here.

[B]

We're all important.

[A]

And women in construction that you go into most Construction offices. It's a majority women. It's like, why? But why. Why don't we talk more about that? Women are really the ones behind the industry, behind the scenes of the industry, making this whole thing work.

[B]

I was corrected, by the way, by a woman in construction for saying, starting to show some pride that I do behind the scenes work. They're like, well, we feel like you're like making us seem small behind the scenes. And I'm just like, like, can I just be myself and say what I actually do? Or do you want pictures of me in front of equipment? Which isn't what I do, you know, but you.

[A]

But you can.

[B]

I've given myself permission to reset. Yes, but having her say that. And here's something wild. So we have really aggressive goals in Minnesota for the dbe, woman owned, minority owned, the whole things. And I was at a meeting with other big primes who were talking about how are we going to meet these aggressive state of Minnesota? One, we do one of the worst at meeting the goals, but then the pool of competent contractors is very small, so it's reality. But two, we do bad at workforce, all the things. And I'm like, I brought up at this meeting, I said, why can't the office staff count? So office staff, women, office staff don't count towards the workforce goals. And I'm like, that's bullshit. And they were like, well, we gotta get women out in the field and those are the roles where we need to push. I'm like, but do we? Because both of the women that work in my office still get to go to hockey games, still run them to hockey practice, still do all the doctor's appointments. Like that wouldn't work for them. But you're saying their hard work in our office to keep these guys running doesn't count.

[A]

Yeah, it's insulting.

[B]

I'm sorry, but that's bs. And it just got a little quiet in the meeting and I'm like, oh, there I am again. But I'm totally comfortable being uncomfortable. I'm getting. It's kind of scary almost. It's just like, oh, what's this going to turn into?

[A]

And that's why I'm trying to lean into it a little bit more. It's like, I need to talk about. I need to say the stuff I'm thinking and believing. And I'm not saying that none of what I say is the gospel or right. But it's like, I don't know, it's again, strange to me.

[B]

It's a conversation, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And safety is another one. It's like we're gonna signal to everybody how safe we are by doing these things that don't really make a difference, but look like it makes a difference.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're gonna sweep under the rug, like mental safety, addiction problem that we have and, and the horrible stuff happening with these people.

[B]

Suicide, mental safety, sweeping under the rug. Like, what in the.

[A]

Because we can't do that. We can't do anything about it. It's their personal time.

[B]

Again, my moment to say that's bullshit.

[A]

Or even like just health, like from a safety standpoint. I don't know, is somebody 100 pounds overweight, more likely to be injured on a job site by a slip, trip or a fall?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Probably.

[B]

Yep. And are we having those conversations in our safety meetings? Yeah, like, that's one of the things I'm trying to bring into our. Our safety program is mental safety and health and wellness. And like, how are you as a person and showing up for your family and showing up for yourself? And again, I asked the union, I had him come sit down in our office and I was like, hey, I've been looking at the statistics on the health and well being and wellness of our union operators. And what services do you provide? Because I spend a lot of money on the union, right? So my guy makes, let's just say 40 an hour. What I pay for him is 60 an hour, 20 an hour goes to the union. So, hey, union, like, not that they're the need to solve all of our industry's problems, but as a business, I'm paying for it. What are you doing for their mental health, their safety? Connect. Do you have pamphlets? Oh, no, they can just call the union. They can call this number. And I'm like, oh, this number? We got to do better than that. I'm sorry. Like, who are they working with? Can they come present at our safety meetings? That counselor that I pay for, I asked can he come present at our safety meeting on family or something? Well, we've never been asked that before. Well, can you send me his number? Well, you'd probably have to pay him. Fine.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, whatever I need to do.

[B]

Are you serious? No one wants this. It's just PPE and trench.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

And that's it.

[A]

Yeah, let's. Let's. The one that just drives us.

[B]

And we hope you stay and your kids want to work for us when you're like, not even mentally healthy and addicted. Don't even get me started. Aaron. Don't put.

[A]

Don't poke the bear right now.

[B]

I'm trying to be. I know. Trying to be better.

[A]

It gets me fired up. But. But back to the women construction thing. It's like, I think you. You are a. Like, a great spokesperson for that, though.

[B]

I'm so scared of it, though.

[A]

Yeah. But. But. But I. But that means you're onto something.

[B]

I suppose.

[A]

That actually. That actually means you're going somewhere. Because it's. It's just like that. That realistic conversation about it is nowhere to be found.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which. And I struggle with talking about it because it's like, who the fuck am I?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm 29 years old. I have no kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not a woman.

[B]

What are you gonna say?

[A]

I'm a white guy? So on. And so, you know, you got on the list. I'm Mr. Privilege. Grew upper class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. All those things. Totally true. But I'm also spectating the industry, spectating on all of this from a very unique. I have a very unique seat in all of this, and I just can't help but to scratch my head sometimes and ask some questions.

[B]

And I admire. I used to be bothered that you never talked about it. I was like, well, if you're gonna make the dirt world a better place, why are you talking about women in contraption?

[A]

Right?

[B]

I'm just being like, we're friends. Right? And now I admire that you have stepped back and been like, I have to understand this first. I want to see. I'm not a woman. I have not been through that process yet until Ashley. Right? Babies and family. And what does that look like Right up close? Right? So now I can look at that and be like, I admire that you've, like, taken some space from that. It's a complicated conversation. And what's funny is that every. All the brands, like, ran to me for being, like, the spokesperson woman in construction.

[A]

Because they need to check the box.

[B]

Right?

[A]

We need to check the box.

[B]

It was purely transactional.

[A]

Let's check the box. We're good.

[B]

No one ever actually asked me, like, what is it like being a woman in construction? And all those transactions, those transactional moments of being a spokesperson and putting me on the pedestal, not one brand or person asked me, what is it like being a woman in construction? Has it been easy? Has it been hard? What are you navigating? What things could we do better? How can we help? And so then once I realized, like, no one. I'm not saying no one cares. People care. They do. But my experience right now is you're not actually caring. So I completely shut it off. I backed off, I said, but that's not healthy either. Then I was like, I'm not talking about it. I'm gonna be behind the scenes, which I'm very proud of what I do and what my team does behind the scenes. And I'm just going to shut that whole conversation down because it's so uncomfortable for me. It's so uncomfortable. And the other reason it's uncomfortable for me is like my, our company is built off the sweat of men who are amazing. I can't be like, rah, rah, women in construction and forget that that's not what we are.

[A]

And that's been the other interesting thing is I've seen it create more resentment.

[B]

Yes, yes. Which is like the last thing you want.

[A]

This is the opposite outcome that you're creating by doing this. But you're not out in the field to see it. Correct.

[B]

I think some of our guys were kind of offended by the pedestal. And again, I didn't chase that pedestal. All the brands were like, oh, a woman in construction who can talk. She should be the spokesperson for it and we shouldn't ask her what it's actually like. But just get up there and smile by that piece of equipment, you're.

[A]

And so you're in the DBMB world that you've already referenced. Yeah, that's a whole other can of worms. But I think the perception also is that it's just if you're a woman. I know, it's just, here you go. Oh, we need more of women businesses. Here's your certification. But I, I spoke with you plenty through the process and I probably got a glimpse of like a percent of what the hell it was going on. But I know you went, you jumped through a whole lot of hoops to make that happen.

[B]

We are one of the hardest type of businesses to certify. And our certification specialist presents us to a board and he said it wasn't easy. We were a three hour presentation. Normally it's 30 to 45 minutes, yes or no. And he spent three hours because we're a 51, 49 and ownership. And I acquired my equity in the company through work. You know, I was never paid. I put in the time, so. And a lot of it. And I like the program and that it's hard to get certified. I do like that because what they're fighting against is in the 90s just to meet the goals.

[A]

Out of desperation, someone sign their wife up.

[B]

Sign their wife up. Which also I understand because you look at the pool of contractors to meet the goals, and then the state goals, they don't align.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

It doesn't work. You're setting up primes who are amazing primes, like Veidt and McCrossen and all the local, like, aims. You're setting them up for failure to not even win great work.

[A]

Well, and then when you do get the. With the. Get the work, you're getting a shittier quality because they're plugging these holes to meet these goals with contractors that are.

[B]

Typically not qualified to pin over their skis. And I go to the meetings with those contractors, the DBE contractors, and they're like, well, I'm a painter and a truck driver and a this, and I'm in the program, and I'm like. And you're bidding a dot job. Like, you probably shouldn't do that. Like, can I help you a little bit? Like, hold on. So it is refreshing for us because. And for the primes in our area, that we're a competent contractor, we've put in the time. Like, we can show up and do the work, but we're also not trying to be a contractor that just checks the box. Like, that's not what we want.

[A]

Well, you're there on merit. Yeah.

[B]

You're here because our guys are the bomb. Like,.com, which. Trevor tells me not to say that anymore. He's like, you're so dating yourself the bomb dot com.

[A]

That's what I said.

[B]

Yeah. So that whole world, I'm just getting into it, and I'm like, ooh, this is kind of an ugly system again. Here we are like, why, God? Why are you putting me in the middle of these complex conversations?

[A]

You have found. Yeah, you're.

[B]

I found myself in a bit of a conundrum.

[A]

Yeah. So either fundraising.

[B]

Yeah. I should have stayed in the nonprofit world and been like, help people.

[A]

Just left it in the parking lot.

[B]

Just help people. Like, screw waste and dumpsters, took the.

[A]

Roll off truck to auction, called it a day.

[B]

Or, you know, when I had my little apple moment with Trevor this year, I should have been like, you know, I'm good. Fire me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

[B]

As things get complicated, this is. I'm out.

[A]

Yeah. This sounds.

[B]

Literally, I had to go through that process because I'm like, gosh, this is. But then I'm like, I just. I can't give up. I believe in it too much. I care too much. I see things differently. I'm getting unscared to talk about it, which Is great, which is scary, but good. It feels healthy. And people are gonna probably message and, why did you say this? But now, like you said, I care less.

[A]

And you're just saying what you believe, which is freeing.

[B]

I'm speaking my truth.

[A]

Yeah. When you don't have to dance around certain things, it makes it so much like I was. We were just talking about this in our executive meeting the other day. There was five of us, me and four others that. That run the company. And we all have equal parts in running the company. I don't think anyone does more or less than anybody else. We are all, like, critical to the business.

[B]

That's good to see your team that way.

[A]

But I'll go into some of these. I'll see these other corporate worlds. Not necessarily construction, just other stuff. And, like, all the politicking and posturing and. Well, I can say this, but I can't say that. And it's just like, oh, how exhausting.

[B]

We're trying to make humans corporations and we have to stop.

[A]

Or like. Yeah. You meet somebody that's been at a corporation for, like, 20 years, like, where'd your personality go?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what happened to you? They're not since 2008.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where'd you go? Where are you? I know you're in there.

[B]

And the fear I used to have was, we're not going to get work if I speak my truth.

[A]

Well, yeah.

[B]

So I had to. I walked this line. Right. But now I think we're in a secure enough place. Right. As you grow in business, you get to different milestones. You're like, okay, now I can kind of open up a little more now. But at the same time, it's like, well, if someone doesn't want to work with me, like, for speaking my truth, do I want to work with them?

[A]

And I think once you lean into it, though, it actually ends up making things a lot better. It's just like that. That chasm in between.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You just have to go into the unknown. And it's really scary to do that.

[B]

Very scary.

[A]

But if you really.

[B]

It feels so good if you.

[A]

Yeah, but if you go in two feet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got to jump in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It ends up working out really well.

[B]

Thank you for telling me that, because I just started telling myself, well, I.

[A]

Think it's going to be okay. You get in trouble when you're putting your toes in one camp and you still got a foot in the other.

[B]

Yeah. You're trying to figure it out. Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't work that way.

[B]

Or you're Trying to figure it out. You're trying to. Like, so for me, I've just been trying to figure it out, which is fine.

[A]

Like, take time to figure it out.

[B]

Like, yeah. What do I actually believe as I'm walking out? Being a woman in construction.

[A]

And I. And I don't think you ever figure it out either. Like, I think you're completely entitled to have an opinion today that differs from an opinion next year.

[B]

Yes. As you grow.

[A]

And to say, man, I got that one wrong and I got some new data. Here's what I've learned as a result. And it's this part of that was. Was right. And I'm going to double down there. But this part.

[B]

Totally wrong.

[A]

But then that gives you more. More credibility, for sure. Like, I talked about. I feel like I talked about this already, but we went through a period where making payroll was tricky. Don't say that.

[B]

Obviously. We all do.

[A]

Yes. I remember the nights where I was just up, like, scared shitless. Like, what in the fuck am I gonna do?

[B]

What would have helped you feel normal?

[A]

Well, yeah, it's hard. And so I didn't talk about it publicly during. But I. I made a post about it not too long ago, and I was talking with somebody coming in, like, a new hire, and I was like, what do you think? This and that. She called my post out about us nearly missing payroll as one of the reasons why she wanted to work for us.

[B]

Isn't that awesome?

[A]

And it's like, on paper, it would be the opposite.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But in practice to.

[B]

You got to gritty go getter.

[A]

I'm a real person.

[B]

You got a real gritty go getter.

[A]

They're not going to bullshit me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I want to be a part of that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's like. And she's been great. Well, go figure.

[B]

Yes. They're the gritty ones who are just like, we're in it to win it with you. We know that means trench time. We know that means up on the hill looking over a complete project. But we want to be in the trenches. That's how you attract good people is your real story. Well. And who you are.

[A]

And so this is where it's not just the women in construction thing, but it's like the inclusion thing. We want this to be a place for everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not a place for everybody. Construction. No, it shouldn't. It should. It is. It is. It should never be, but it is not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, that's the reality. That's what I struggle with. With this. This fake world, like, imposing itself on reality. But it's like. But it's reality. It's not for everybody. It's not supposed to be for everybody.

[B]

In diversity meetings right now. And I worked in at risk neighborhoods. I had a career in at risk neighborhoods for 10 years. Primary population Hispanic, which I am, so I can say that, and African American. Their exposure, like, so DOT is going to put these goals on. Right. But kids that grow up in neighborhoods like that, exposure to this industry is so minimal. They are in a city, they see big towers. They think, I want to be a lawyer or a doctor. And that's what successful is. Not only that, the union training center, which I believe you've been to, the one here in.

[A]

Oh, it's amazing. Yeah.

[B]

Most of the kids in at risk neighborhoods that represent the diversity we need on our job sites take the bus to school and to work. They are not driving two hours away to a training center. To be able to build a career as a heavy equipment operator, union would have to build something downtown if you want to see this diversified workforce. So it's like a bunch of hogshit. Like, it's just like, it doesn't work, but we can find things that can work. So I had this idea of making a call center. I literally was sitting by the president of a big, big prime in the Twin Cities, and I was like, I have this idea on how we can meet these diverse workforce goals. I want to start a call center, ticketing center downtown Minneapolis. I know that proximity is very important for a diverse workforce. They have to be able to walk to work or take the bus to work. And don't taboo me for saying that. I've worked in the neighborhood for nine years. Okay. I worked on the south side of Chicago. I was 100 in Michigan, not at Burberry. Okay, I understand a little bit. So I said, hey, let's start a call center and a ticket counting center. How many trucks go through DOT jobs? How many trucks? Right. How many tickets do we have to process? How many tickets have to be scanned and accounted for? Compliance documents, phone calls, brokering trucks. Let's start a center in downtown Minneapolis. I found a building. Let's do that. And those goals don't count.

[A]

Yeah. Because they're. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

What? Those goals don't count. But that's a real opportunity for diversifying our industry right now here in Minnesota, where the equity sits. I'm gonna get in so much trouble for having this conversation, and I don't even care. Well, yeah, it doesn't make sense. But this makes sense. But then that doesn't count. So what? It just like. So for me, I'm really onto something. I'm really pushing here in the Twin Cities. Cause, you know, the murder of George Floyd happened here. We're in a Mecca of change and an industry that's people open to change, driving change. And I'm bringing up the complexities of this conversation. And I'm going there because I'm just like, we gotta go here. Then there's something wrong. And do I need to sit on council? What do I need to do to get involved on the legislative side? Because this is setting everyone up for failure and stopping people from having real opportunity. You know, the.

[A]

That's the cool thing about private business, though, is that at a certain point you can go do that. You don't need to go get someone else's permission to do it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Whether it meets goals or not. Yeah, you can go do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I think is. Is really, really cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just. And I. I don't say construction should not be for everybody. I mean it from like a. They. They look at it from like a. What they can see Perspective. You gotta meet your DE and I goals based on what people look like. I just mean it from like a. We need gritty people, man. We need people again that are willing. It's cold outside right now. Your people are working today. Not everybody's willing to do that.

[B]

No.

[A]

And that's okay.

[B]

And most of them grew up doing that. They grew up on farms. It's just like, what are we gonna do? People that's in their blood. And I know that's not every culture. Like, that's. We need to start owning, like, societal norms and societal infrastructure and what is really possible and build that into our goals. And for me, success is our white guys having enough work for the year to put food on their table for their family. Is that not noble? Is that not a successful program? And most of them have daughters. Okay. Is that diverse enough right now for you guys? Is that I just busted my butt to put everyone to work and to make sure their daughters and their children and their future is provided for. And that's.

[A]

While we're building the community and we're building this community.

[B]

I'm trying to convince Trevor to put all our machines out there and wrap Christmas lights so the community can drive through and get exposed.

[A]

He should. Why not?

[B]

But that doesn't make money. Aaron. Oh.

[A]

Oh, what? Oh.

[B]

Giving us the time marker. Where's Trevor? Mysterious Trevor is going to Dodge a bullet here.

[A]

He's going to come in right when the conversation's over.

[B]

Literally two minutes. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. I didn't know you were going to be here today.

[B]

Like, when he watched him be like, oh, we just ended and like have him come sit down and just start talking. I forget what we're. But yeah, I think the conversation is going to get exciting in the industry. And I really admire the way you're looking at it and that you're standing back and saying like, what is all this? Instead of just jumping in. I mean, I just jumped and was like, yes, I'll be the woman in construction. I'll do it. And then I was just like, whoa.

[A]

Well, I'm just. I'm just trying to be realistic.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

I. The goal is we need to build the infrastructure our society needs into the future.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We need a. And that requires a certain kind of person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's hard work. It has been hard work. Is hard work. Will always be hard work.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's why I don't get excited about the technology and stuff like that. When it's presented as like a savior, a replacement. Yes. It's not. It's like, that's really cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's gonna be a tool and a niche application, but you still need some. Somebody in a. In a ditch with a shovel who.

[B]

Puts pride in what they do every day. And you taking their pride away and saying we're here to replace you.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Is not a good sales tactic. So then I as an owner have to work triple hard for them to adapt into something. Now you've like closed. You've offended them.

[A]

Yeah. This is like. And that's my. That's my thing with like how simulators are positioned. Something like simulator. I'm just pick on simulators. I'm a huge fan of simulators. I think they're an incredible tool for training people. All for it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But the way they're sometimes positioned, not even by the simulator companies, is like, this is how we're going to get kids into the industry. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Okay. Maybe. Maybe it's. Maybe it's part of it. I would say it could be a piece of the piece of tool.

[B]

It's a.

[A]

It's a piece of the puzzle. But I've sat in a simulator. I've sat in an excavator. The excavator is a lot cooler.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And I know you can't bring that.

[B]

Take your kid to work day. Bring it back. But they're not allowed on the job site.

[A]

And I know. And it's like, I'm not even picking on the simulator companies. I'm not even picking on the companies with simulators. Yeah. But I've just seen it positioned as, like, this is. This is why kids are going to be in the industry. It's like, know.

[B]

And they love video games.

[A]

Yeah, they love video games. Like, dude, go play a video game and just compare. Compare the graphics on some of this stuff. Like, they're used to some wild stuff that seems, like, almost real at this point. But, but, but like, like, why are we trying to make, like, the industry's cool building stuff?

[B]

Yeah, it's cool. And we're trying to attract manufactured kids. And we want. We want kids that like our families. For our family day, they line up at the trucks and the excavator and they want to get in. They want to experience it. That's the kid I want. I want the kid who was here all summer when he could have been somewhere else counting trash tickets and starting to understand our software and being like, well, what does LEED certified mean? And what is this? And it's just like, there we go. Like, you don't want to be with your friends right now. You want to be here and get going and, like, understand and go ride in a truck and call waste management. Like, this is awesome. Right.

[A]

When you make your company not for everybody, it ironically builds a stronger culture. A better company that builds better stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That attracts more people.

[B]

I hope so. It's like, you've seen it enough to.

[A]

Tell me keep going.

[B]

Because, you know, it's not easy to be a different duck.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

It's a hard.

[A]

It's really hard. And that's why I don't blame a lot of the older school contractors and people that have been in the industry for a long time, because it's like, I would be doing the exact same thing that they are. Hey, we've got a good thing going.

[B]

Let's just keep working.

[A]

We're making more money than we've ever made before. Our margins are like, why change when it works? Why would we do anything different? I don't blame you at all, but the world's a very different place.

[B]

It is. And it's coming faster than we think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just think the next generation wants something so much more tangible and real.

[A]

And real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They want it. They want it to be real.

[B]

And that's going to mean getting uncomfortable and scary as leaders and owners and being more transparent and we did we.

[A]

Did something at a certain point. I'm going to try to make this as vague as possible because I don't want to hurt any feelings. That's not my intention. We did something and I thought it was amazing, real wildly effective. But then it, There was a group of people that said, well, this isn't. This doesn't cut it. Yeah, but it was real.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, wait, but this is. Because I've been in those positions and I know, I know it's real. And to me, it's really attractive to me because I know I, I know it's real. Yes, but it's. And that happens all over the place. Like, if we were really serious about safety, we'd be sharing our accidents on the Internet, for example. Yeah, but, but that's. You can't do that.

[B]

You can't do that.

[A]

Yeah, because there's a hundred reasons why and there are a hundred good reasons.

[B]

Right. But it's like, learn the most. Most. Like our company, when we went through, you know, something like that, we learned so much, like going through an epic fail of like. And it was a subconscious pattern and behavior built into a guy. Two guys that have been doing this forever. Right? So it's just, keep moving, keep moving. Oh, just trench box. And then it was like, whoa, we're lucky. That was an epic fail. But then when I look at this office and like, what we learned from. So I had to go into the litigation piece. I had to be a part of the legal process, the compliance process, the making it right process. And I wasn't scared of it. I was like, I want. And I literally had a conversation with OSHA and they didn't know what to do with me. I was like, but where were you to tell us that this was important? Important when we were first starting out because we've been paying fees into the Department of labor for 10 years. And I didn't know. And yes, I am. I'm supposed to be competent and understand that. But do you guys offer any sort of training or proactive work that we can do? And they were all just kind of like, oh, we just give tickets and go around and yell at everybody and tell you you suck. And you know, I'm just like, you guys gotta do better. Like, we have. We're an up and coming contractor. We wanna do the right thing, but you've gotta do better. Like, you, you. So you run around and just give tickets, like.

[A]

But they're like, in their defense, that's all they're able to Do.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Which is crazy.

[B]

Like, it's true.

[A]

But I was like, talk to people at M. Shaw. They're like, yeah, this is. We work off a book from 1970 something.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Because that's all we can do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's like, you can't go outside. The guy was like, we can't.

[B]

Thank you for asking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, we want to do better at having programs and education and Siri. He's like, but we're just kind of. Our hands are tied. And I was like, I understand. But we learned so much from that fail. I engaged our insurance company. I was like, listen, we're paying this much for insurance. What do you offer us for help with our safety program? Like, I started putting our professional services to work for us, and they showed up and they did awesome things to help us become better. So I'm like, gosh, I wish I could own this. And I literally was like, I wish I could own this epic fail and, like, talk about all the things we learned. But it's so taboo.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Which is a bummer.

[A]

Like, if I were to ask Trevor, like, what's the. What's the. What's. What's the best lesson you've learned on a job? He's not gonna go tell me the best job he's ever been. Oh, we had this one job. It went perfect. We delivered it ahead of schedule by just a wide margin. And we made so much money. Yeah, it's not gonna be that one. I guarantee you it's gonna be the ugliest duckling of the bunch, because it's like that for everybody. I've never even talked to Trevor about.

[B]

It, but if I were to guess, that's where. You'd never do that again.

[A]

It's every contractor.

[B]

It's like, oh, I hit that line. I did this, and it scares the shit out of you. And then you're like, I will never not follow that safety protocol again. And it's unfortunate, but it's human nature. People forget we're people. Like, we're human. And that's, like, how we learn. Like, that's how we're scientifically wired. But, yeah, we gotta get better at talking about the ugly ducklings in the room. And I hope that next year, as I start to come back out and emerge as just Missy Sherber, that people are open to me talking about some of the ugly ducklings in the room. And if they're not, I'm okay with that, because it's for me and the few that it's for.

[A]

Yeah. I think there will be more people than ever before that will respond well to it.

[B]

That's my hunch, but we'll see.

[A]

Yeah, I, no, it's interesting. I also like, I appreciate that there's a political game to play too. I can't just say all these roles are stupid. The safety department's super stupid. These big companies are stupid.

[B]

It's like so many dynamics.

[A]

Yeah. I don't employ 5,000 people, so I can't. Again, if I were in their position, I would be doing the same. But I don't blame them.

[B]

And then like the work you get could get pulled if you say this or say that or someone comes after you. They're even saying that like people are on the Internet like watching and now looking for, you know, safety stuff and whatever. And I'm like, but are you like, what about emotional safety and mental safety purpose?

[A]

But people say that, say the safety stuff. I've never found an instance of somebody being fined because of something on the Internet where MSHA or osha.

[B]

Okay, that's gonna.

[A]

And I could be proven wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I've never heard of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've never heard.

[B]

Right now my guys will send me pictures, you know, because not every moment's perfect. Right. You could be, this is what stinks too. You could be moving this pile. Right. And you're one, you're doing it like a half bucket. You got a bucket left and so and so's like, oh, you know, the sun is shining and you take a picture and then it's like you put it on that, you know, sloping is not accurate, blah, blah. And then someone posts that on the Internet and then your client sees it and then they call their superintendent like they're not Satan. It's just like, oh man. So no, my guys will be like, this is OSHA approved. Like when they send me photos because I'm like, don't send me your mid slope photos. But at the same time, trust them.

[A]

To be smart enough about it. They're going to be smart. They know what looks good and what doesn't better than anybody. Yeah, but even, yeah, even like some tight lipped operations, there's this, there's whole pages online that just share accidents and stuff all the time. I'm like, oh, I know exactly where that is. Oh, I know exactly what site that is. Yeah. I could tell you exactly what machine. I've seen that machine before.

[B]

Interesting. So it's like I'm looking at the journey of where Perfection has led me, like, trying to be the perfectionist, and it's not good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that opens up a can of worms of, like, is it not good? Like, from a safety perspective that I.

[A]

Don'T think it is.

[B]

We can't find a better way to be open. Like, we knew a guy last year. 2. No. Was it two years ago? Two years ago, you know, a man that was hurting was walking among us on a job site, and now he. He wasn't on our crew and wasn't working directly for us, but ended up committing suicide while on the job. Two daughters. Devastating, right? And it literally hit me, and I was like, he was on our site for, like, two months.

[A]

We had no idea.

[B]

We had no idea. And so Wade and I were talking. Wade's kind of the guy that goes on and does the selfie videos on our unit. He's one of the brothers that grew up in a landfill. And he's just amazing. We started talking about, like, a sticker of it's okay to say I'm not okay. He's gone through treatment, and he's very open about. He's kind of our point guy on our team. When people are struggling, he does a check in with them because he knows closely the union resources and navigating that. And obviously, I think a guy would be more comfortable chatting with Wade than me. Right. Or insurance or whatever. And I'm like, I can't believe that happened. And then I started looking at the statistics of suicide and addiction, and Wade's been talking to me about, like, what? They walk out working the gritty hours and not making themselves a priority. And it was kind of devastating for you. I'm like, this is so sad. I'm a little busy talking about women in construction, and people are hurting, like, on our job sites now. Like, what are we gonna do as a company? And we're so small now that we can, like, adapt and do new, different things. And it's possible. Right? We're not moving a mountain. You know, we could. We can try, like, new and different things. So I'm really fascinated by that. And from that happening, I'm just trying to figure out, do we have mental safety, mental safety officers on our job sites and with different stickers that identify in hats. Like, if you're not okay in this company, we want you to tell us that. And here are some point people that have some training in mental health and mental safety, too.

[A]

There's a program that I'm a huge believer in called U Turn.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you've told me about this.

[A]

You gotta check them out. It's no joke.

[B]

What is it called again?

[A]

U Turn.

[B]

U Turn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I honestly think you sent me a link.

[A]

It's super affordable.

[B]

Does it empower like your own people to kind of help they have each other?

[A]

The most helpful video based training on mental health, substance abuse I have ever seen.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

And then it's. It's a number that anybody can call.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They don't report it to the employer. You can use it as much as you want.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Your family can use it.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

So anybody in your family can use it as well. And it doesn't just cover abuse. It covers abuse, suicide, addiction, stress, anxiety. You can just call where it starts. Right? Yeah. It's. I am a huge. I don't think we even get anything for talking with them about it. They partner with us on the summit and so on and so forth. But we have it for our company. I talk about it every chance I get. It's unbelievable. But it's like for me as an employer, I can't expect to go draw people into my company. My company sucks to work for. My number one job should be to make a company a better place that worth working for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And we're by no means perfect. We have fucked up everything imaginable and we have royally screwed some things up. But I'm at least striving to make it a great place to be. A great place to work for that. Yeah. I need to give everybody at the company a reason to stick around.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And if. If we lose that reason, they leave. And I don't blame them for leaving.

[B]

I've been working on that for the last couple years and I think I was kind of doing it all wrong where I was trying to build a culture. Because culture was like this popular thing to say and like we have a.

[A]

Good culture still is.

[B]

Is it? See now I don't follow anything or any. I like don't. I don't know so much what's happening anymore more again, because not that I don't want to follow people. I just literally don't have time because I get home and then it's like change my diaper. Like you know, just craziness. But I am just. I started to build culture in a way that I thought our guys and gals needed it. Like, oh, this is what culture would look like to me. And it was like, eh, so so. But then I started going to my field leads. Wade is one of them. What is building a good culture? Look like to you, you build our safety program. You. No, I don't want insurance and this consultant to build our safety program. I want you to help build our safety program and mental safety and well being. And what would an amazing program look like to you, one of the single moms in our office, like, hey, what does support look like for you? And to me, like, I'm trying to build a company that they want to work for and have them build it. Like you build these programs and then it'll take off and you'll attract more people like you because you're awesome.

[A]

Yeah. You're not trying to recruit more Missy's.

[B]

No.

[A]

You're trying.

[B]

No, I am like a walk in.

[A]

Progress, which is also, I think, what people think. Like, and that's where some of these workforce development programs are misguided. It's like, wait, wait. You're approaching it from your perspective. You're not. We're not trying to hire. You're 53.

[B]

We're not trying to hire more 52 year olds.

[A]

Great. If somebody 53 wants to come in, come on down.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But we're trying to get, like, your kids.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So what do your kids want? Which is probably different than what you want or what you wanted.

[B]

And kids are so simple. I love kids. I love our families. They're so simple. Like, we had an RC car race set up at this thing, and they came and I was like, okay, what was most fun about the party? And they like the machines. They like the RC car set up. And I'm like, but what would you want to see? See next time?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, we want to get like a T shirt. This is crazy. A T shirt or sponsored bus or demo derby kind of car. And see the dads and the guys drive it around and wreck shit. Like, do all that. And I'm like, all right, we're gonna. And Trevor's looking at me like, what are you doing? And I'm just like. I'm like, this is a great idea. You know, cost money, but not make money. I'm in.

[A]

Yeah. One. One time we smashed some cars together with two D10s with Josh McCahill.

[B]

It's so fun.

[A]

When I saw him a few weeks ago, you're still talking about all he says. He's like, I've got another car. And I'm like, say no more.

[B]

I mean, you're still talking about it.

[A]

You're still talking about it. I am a 6 year old and I am so on board with that.

[B]

In all of you guys See, that does not excite me. It doesn't excite me at all. I'm like, you know, the other day, Trevor and I were on a family date at the Mall of America, and I was like, can I just have your credit card for, like, 30 minutes?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, 30 minutes? What kind of damage could do in 30 minutes? Sure. And I'm just like, let's go. Like, no machine. I mean, because obviously, like, everything goes back into the business and the machines and the people, and I'm like, can I just splurge on myself? And there was some lady standing next to me, and they're like, ooh. He doesn't know what kind of damage a woman can do with a credit card in 30 minutes. See, that's exciting to me. So I'm still coming back into the world of, like, tearing up shit, crashing cars, and all the things. Okay, so we have to learn. Get to close here. Like, what do you want to close out this conversation with?

[A]

Yeah, I guess we need to wrap it up. I've got to get on down the road.

[B]

But we're friends, and we could talk for a long time.

[A]

No, I'm glad we caught up.

[B]

I was anxious about it. I even straight up told you that most people are.

[A]

And then every time afterwards, they're just like, how long did we talk for? That wasn't bad at all.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I told you, I'm just.

[B]

Hey, I think I was nervous about. I'm in such a candid, like, point in my career, and I'm still like. Like you said, I thought I should tiptoe into that, and I knew coming into this. So I'm just gonna put it out there, and it's gonna hold me accountable to. Yeah, jump in.

[A]

Well, and there's. I mean, it's important. This isn't a gotcha thing. So it's like, if you called me next week, say, hey, can you just delete that? We would just. We would delete it, but. But if people listen to this.

[B]

I just don't want to do that.

[A]

I think that's. I wouldn't. I think this is.

[B]

I don't want to do that.

[A]

No, I think. I think this is conversation that people need to.

[B]

Yeah. The goal is to be unapologetically yourself and transparent, and that makes us a better industry. And we've talked about how that affects safety, branding, retention. It's like, unapologetic transparency. And if we as people don't get to be that, like, well, then what are we. You know, like, we're robots and we're manufactured. Then turn us into a piece of equipment. You know, put us through the caterpillar belt. Like, we're not trying to be manufactured here. We're trying to be human. And the more human we are, I think the greater as an industry and the better people will bring in what you're doing. Okay. Do I still get my free ticket to Dirt World Summit?

[A]

Yeah, I suppose.

[B]

Can I hold it?

[A]

Three years later. I have to use it, though. It expires 2025.

[B]

You're gonna have to give me an expiration date because that's actually what's going to be there for sure.

[A]

Expires 2025.

[B]

But I'm really proud of you. Like, you and I met. We sat in that hotel lobby by CAT headquarters, and you were just. This was all an idea.

[A]

Yeah. World domination's always been the goal. It's just taken a little bit to get somewhere, and we're just barely getting somewhere.

[B]

You've navigated, though, and you've kept pushing, and I think.

[A]

But to your point, because it's authentic.

[B]

So real.

[A]

Like, I'm not bullshitting. And if I was, I would have been found out by now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would have thrown in the towel a long time. It's like, I'm more fired up now than ever before.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's people, like, even some people like that I'm friends with now, they've straight up told me. Like, I. I honestly thought you were completely bullshitting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a while, it's like, I don't blame you. Yeah. I probably would have thought I was bullshitting, too. But you're like. But you're just. You're still doing it.

[B]

You're still doing.

[A]

Still doing it.

[B]

When it's genuine and passion, you can't quit. And you. You. You can't quit. Like, this year, I probably could've, should've, would've quit, but I was like, no, this is too real to me. Like, it means something. And when it means something, you have the grit to not quit. And I'm really proud of you. You've done some good things.

[A]

Well, likewise. It's awesome seeing what you and Trevor have done, and I'm here for it.