Practical Safety w/ Justin Azbill of Milwaukee Tool – DT 298

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Episode: Practical Safety w/ Justin Azbill of Milwaukee Tool – DT 298
Release Date: December 19, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Dirt Talk, host Aaron engages in an in-depth conversation with Justin Azbill, a seasoned safety professional at Milwaukee Tool and a former Marine Corps member. The discussion delves into practical safety measures within the construction industry, the influence of military discipline on workplace safety, and the challenges faced in creating a genuine safety culture.

Personal Background and Experiences

Early Career and Military Service

Justin Azbill shares his journey, beginning his foray into construction at the tender age of 12 under the mentorship of a local construction company owner. This early start laid the foundation for his hands-on experience in both residential and commercial construction.

At [06:10], Justin recounts his decision to join the Marine Corps straight out of high school:

“That was my exit plan.” — Justin Azbill [06:21]

His nearly three and a half years in the Marines instilled a sense of discipline and resilience, which he has carried into his professional life. Justin emphasizes that the Marine mindset fosters humility and a direct approach, traits that set former Marines apart in the workforce.

Transition to Safety Professional

After his military service, Justin returned to the construction industry, initially working as an ironworker before transitioning into safety. His move into safety was influenced by his commitment to preventing workplace injuries and fostering a more empathetic and accountable work environment.

Safety Culture in Construction

Empathy and Human-Centric Safety

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the necessity of integrating empathy into safety protocols. Justin advocates for a shift from a purely compliance-driven approach to one that genuinely cares for the workforce's well-being. At [25:26], he states:

“Much of the safety culture needs to legitimately be about the people doing the work.” — Justin Azbill [25:26]

Involving Workers in Safety Decisions

Justin underscores the importance of involving workers in safety decision-making processes. By doing so, workers feel valued and are more likely to adhere to safety measures, fostering a collaborative environment. He illustrates this with his initiative to provide fog-free safety glasses after addressing a persistent issue on-site:

“We were honest. Right. And two weeks later, this is like a program they're running through the whole company now.” — Justin Azbill [63:52]

Leadership and Human Factors

Focus on Strengths Over Weaknesses

Drawing from his Marine experience, Justin emphasizes leveraging individuals' strengths rather than fixating on their weaknesses. He notes:

“In the Marines, they focus on your strengths.” — Justin Azbill [18:22]

Authentic Communication

Effective leadership in safety involves honest and open communication. Justin shares anecdotes illustrating the pitfalls of an enforcement-heavy approach versus a supportive, conversation-based strategy. He advocates for leaders to be present in the field, understand the challenges workers face, and address safety concerns collaboratively.

Challenges with OSHA and Regulatory Standards

Limitations of OSHA Training

Justin critiques the current state of OSHA training programs, pointing out that while OSHA 10 and OSHA 30 hours are intended to educate workers on safety risks, they often fall short in practical application:

“Most of our people are trained OSHA 10 or OSHA 30. That means they're safe. No, that's not how.” — Justin Azbill [46:36]

He argues that these programs have become more of a business model rather than effective training tools, often failing to keep pace with the evolving construction industry.

Antiquated Regulations

Both hosts agree that many safety regulations are outdated, pointing out that industries like mining still operate under rules unchanged since the 1970s. This disconnect hampers the implementation of modern safety practices and technologies.

Recommendations for Improving Safety

Boots on the Ground Approach

Justin champions the "boots on the ground" philosophy, where safety leaders actively engage with workers in their actual work environments. This hands-on approach ensures that safety protocols are relevant and effectively enforced.

Empowering Workers

Empowerment is key to a successful safety culture. Justin encourages workers to take personal responsibility for their safety and to actively participate in maintaining a safe work environment. He emphasizes:

“Safety should be. I'm incentivized to be safe.” — Aaron [69:55]

Realistic and Honest Safety Conversations

Honest discussions about the realities of construction work, including the inherent risks and expectations, can lead to better safety outcomes. Justin advocates for transparency from the outset, ensuring workers understand both the rewards and the demands of their roles.

Incentivizing Safety

Justin highlights the financial benefits of maintaining a safe workplace. By reducing injuries, companies save significantly on workers' compensation and other related costs, which can then be reinvested into improving the workforce and operational efficiency.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Aaron and Justin reaffirming the importance of authentic safety cultures in the construction industry. They stress that genuine care for workers, coupled with effective leadership and realistic safety measures, can transform the industry's approach to safety. Justin’s experiences and insights underscore the necessity of moving beyond compliance to create workplaces where safety is a shared responsibility and a true priority.

Notable Quotes:

• Justin Azbill [06:21]: “That was my exit plan.”
• Justin Azbill [25:26]: “Much of the safety culture needs to legitimately be about the people doing the work.”
• Justin Azbill [46:36]: “Most of our people are trained OSHA 10 or OSHA 30. That means they're safe. No, that's not how.”
• Justin Azbill [63:52]: “We were honest. Right. And two weeks later, this is like a program they're running through the whole company now.”
• Aaron [69:55]: “Safety should be. I'm incentivized to be safe.”
• Justin Azbill [25:26]: “You're the grunts of military. And they're not shy. They’re not shy about telling you that.”

This episode serves as a crucial reminder that effective safety in construction hinges not just on regulations and protocols, but on the human elements of empathy, communication, and genuine leadership.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor. And at this point, we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter, and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest workwear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants, and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, ariat.comdirttalk that is ariat.comdirttALK I. I have a lot of sugar, but it's honey, typically.

[B]

Yeah, that's natural honey. Fruit, natural sugar.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm, I'm super active.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, I mean, like, when I'm really training this summer, it was probably at least 5, 6 hours of training a weekend.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

And so you just. Yeah, I'm, I, I'll just eat honey by the table.

[B]

But you also need the calories.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's. And the, the natural sugar is so good. Cause it just goes right into you.

[B]

Goes right to you.

[A]

Yeah. Or I'll have dried fruit, too. That's what I use when I race, typically. Because anything else, like the goos and such, they just.

[B]

I fuck, they. I almost want to vomit.

[A]

It just destroys your insides.

[B]

I used one of those packs last year for the first time when I did the Newport half Marathon. I was nine miles in and I could feel I needed energy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I took one of them. It did help me, but it tasted so bad.

[A]

Yeah, I can't do it.

[B]

It's not like when you go buy one, it's not like they, hey, try this first.

[A]

No. Well, in the, the problem with the longer races, too, is I've gotten into some of the longer ones. And when you're going for quite a while, if you lose your stomach, it's gone. You don't get.

[B]

You don't get it back.

[A]

Yeah. So I've, I've tried to be.

[B]

You just want to vomit the whole time.

[A]

Well, you're drinking water or you just start shitting yourself. Like a friend of mine, we were doing. It was a hundred mile race.

[B]

That's a long race.

[A]

He starts shitting himself, like mile five. And so every few miles he has to take a dump.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's. We're just in the woods.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're out in the woods taking like every, every few miles.

[B]

Dude, that's brutal.

[A]

He finished the Race. My knee got jacked up, so I stopped at like 60 something miles.

[B]

Dude, that's a long way.

[A]

It was a long day, but he. He.

[B]

Long day. Long way, man.

[A]

He did it. He completed it with a jacked up stomach, but he ate something that didn't agree with him.

[B]

Do the. A hundred miles, especially in a day.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I mean, it's a long day. Average person 26 is eight hours.

[A]

Yeah. Is it really? Is that average?

[B]

Really? Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Walking or running?

[B]

Power walking.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna. I was gonna say. Cause running must be like.

[B]

I did the five, six. I did the Boston Marathon. Marathon. Tough rock.

[A]

Really? Yeah. Is it though. How long is that?

[B]

Same 26.2 miles with 35 pounds.

[A]

Really? Yeah. And is it during when they're running the Boston Marathon?

[B]

No, they did it in 21. It was the first time. Only time ever. Because Covid stuff. Right. So they offered it. I did it with a friend of mine. It was virtually. You can do it anywhere, but you had to submit the info.

[A]

So it was like a virtual. Virtual race.

[B]

Yeah. So like you had to send like. I did mine with my Apple watch. I see that showed your route and showed the time stuff. I did mine in seven hours.

[A]

Yeah, that's a. That's a. That's a lot. I mean, that's. That's a long day.

[B]

Yeah. With 35 pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You're going to be gassed after that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it was.

[A]

I was hauling for Boston Marathon. Now it is crazy how many people submit for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you qualifying. Yeah, qualifying doesn't get you because I got super lucky. I did it. I qualified in 2021 during the whole Covid thing. And so anybody that qualified got in, which is awesome. Like qualifying, just getting a qualifying time is probably the most difficult thing I've done.

[B]

You gotta run other ones to get it. You have to prove it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You have to hit a pretty aggressive marathon time. And I just barely got it. So then I got in. But now if I were to go get. They just reduced. In my age group, they reduced it from three hours to two hours and 50 minutes, which is like. That's six under 6:30amile. I think it is for 26 points for a marathon, like, to sustain that pace is pretty gnarly.

[B]

That wasn't happening yesterday at the Marine Corps Marathon.

[A]

No. But you can. You can get that and still not get in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Them say sorry. Yeah. You just. There's that many people doing it because.

[B]

They feel bad for us old guys. And let us do it.

[A]

Well, so, yeah, there's other ways to get in. And so if I did, I want to do the New York City Marathon and Chicago Marathon, but you can do the charity route.

[B]

My friend Tim Irving, he's the director, Novotia, just did the Chicago. He said he'll never do it again.

[A]

Really?

[B]

It said it wasn't a race, it was logistics.

[A]

Oh, well, that's how awesome.

[B]

It was horrible.

[A]

It's so. Yeah, yeah, the race is the easy part.

[B]

Yeah, he was getting logistics. Not enough bathroom. He goes, people were. He goes. There was people peeing in front of others. Just because. Yeah, that's bad.

[A]

Well, yeah. But yeah, when you're. I mean, because the, the porta potties, there'll be like 50 people waiting for one. For one porta potty. It's so crazy.

[B]

You're like trying to get the time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And you like. Yeah, when you're starting a race, you want to be hydrated, but then you're like, I don't want to drink too much because then I'm going to be waiting for the damn porta pot.

[B]

Double edged sword.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we can bullshit about this all day long. Were you in the military?

[B]

Marine Corps.

[A]

You were in the Marine Corps?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Did you go out of high school or college?

[B]

Right out of high school.

[A]

Right out of high school. Why?

[B]

That was my exit plan.

[A]

Was that always the plan or did it just kind of come up?

[B]

No, I really wasn't into academics at the time. It wasn't something. I started working construction when I was 12.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I was very fortunate that there was a guy local that mentored me. He's like my second father still to this day. He was a minister, but also in a construction company. And we went to church together. And I drove him nuts, like, I want a job. I want to come work for you. Finally one day he stopped by, picked me up on a Saturday. Hey, I want you to come clean up these job sites for me. I was 12. And that's where it started. Like two bucks an hour. And he bought my lunch like at Taco Bell and I started doing that on Saturdays. And he taught me a lot about construction that way. What kind of construction was it residential and commercial.

[A]

Like buildings?

[B]

Yeah, buildings.

[A]

All kinds of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, well, he was his own. He was a very small company. He would get seven kids, so he's like, I need work to pay bills, which like everyone in the world. Right. And he's just a really great guy and, you know, took me under his wing and Next thing you know, like, I'm almost like, oh, I'm integrated into. I'm the eighth kid of the family, you know, because. And then he had another one. So then I was number nine. So, like, it's just a great guy. But that's how I learned and got into construction, and I knew that.

[A]

I.

[B]

Just wasn't meant for school at the time. That was my mentality. So my dad's like, well, it's a good option. Join the Marines. So that's what I did. And then when I came back, first thing I wanted to do is I needed a job mindset. That's how I was raised and got into construction.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's all you knew.

[B]

That's all I knew.

[A]

How long were you in the Marines for?

[B]

Almost three and a half years.

[A]

Okay. So just enough to get it.

[B]

I got disciplined.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I guess they.

[B]

The regiment, the discipline, which I needed, man. To be honest, at that time, like, I was just a dumb young guy. And I was grateful because I learned a lot. It made me. I still lived the same way. I mean, look at my haircut, Right. So I was grateful. I did my bit and then came and helped me be kind of above the norm for most of the people I was working with because they weren't as disciplined.

[A]

I feel like you can kind of tell the people that have been in the Marines.

[B]

Yeah, we have a different mindset.

[A]

There's a different feel, in a way, to the Marine guys.

[B]

Very regimented. It's not that we're. I would say it's not that we are. The mindset that we're above others or anything like that.

[A]

No, I've never gotten more humble. Yeah.

[B]

I feel like we're very direct, but we appreciate more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we lived pretty tough scenarios.

[A]

Yeah. But there's like a. Yeah, there's a humility because you're the. You're the grunts of military. And they're not shy. Yeah, they're not. They're not shy about telling you that.

[B]

When you sign up, from the moment.

[A]

You arrive, you know exactly what you're signing up for. Yeah. And. Yeah, there's this. There's this discipline to the former Marine guys that I've been around that you like. I feel like you can almost pick them out in a way because they have this different.

[B]

You can spot. We can spot each other. A lot of times you're in the airport, you're like, okay, yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. Yeah. Dan was a former Marine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He talks about it quite a bit.

[B]

We all still Wear watches, belts. Like my shirt's not untucked today. It's untucked today. But I'm taking it easy after yesterday.

[A]

His hair, his hair short too.

[B]

They usually tuck our shirts in, you know, it's just sour wired.

[A]

I do. I think that discipline is good, especially when you're developing as a kid.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

I think high school's important, but I think the years following high school, and this is where I'm pro higher education in a way, or military or whatever. But you need. I think it's hard for people to just go right into the workforce at 18.

[B]

I think when you find those people who go right into the workforce at 18, it's because they don't really know what they want to do or my friend told me this would be a good opportunity or haven't really made that decision. And I find that sometimes people get stuck.

[A]

You get stuck. Yes. And I understand, like there's a lot of people that have to do that. Understood. Yes. Get it?

[B]

Some people don't have any options.

[A]

No. But a lot of people don't have to. And yeah, you run the risk of getting stuck because at 18 you don't know who you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You start to go down this path, you start to make more money. That's it. You get trained up in one thing, you get one skill set and you're there. Whereas the military or. And there's pros and cons to either. All different paths. There's no right or wrong way. Military or college or something like that. Gives you a few years to just somewhat figure out, all right, who am I? What am I good at? What am I not good at? Yeah. Cuz you don't. I mean, if you get that in high school, good for you. Great job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Most people don't get that in high school.

[B]

There's only one in 50 natural leaders in the world. One in 50?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So 49 of us have no figure out, man.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like no matter where you go to high school, no matter the quality of the education, quote unquote, you're not really getting developed as an individual.

[B]

Most people get stuck, man. Like, I've done a lot of research on leadership. That's my passion since, you know, going through my process in 2020, we call it shadow work. It led me to higher education and you know, only 15% of the US workforce has ever received leadership training focused on human behavior. And I found that really highlighted of importance because it really makes you think of the people side of things. Like your journey.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So my journey, I got into construction after I got back from the Marine Corps and it went from. I was going to be an iron worker, then it transitioned into safety. I didn't pick my profession. It shows me. But like most people, they get a job, then they have a wife and daughter or vice versa, whatever. Then the family comes and then they get stuck. And I say stuck and I don't mean in a bad way. It's just they get into this situation like, hey, this is my job. I can't choose an alternate plan or an alternate. Some can, but it's very limited. I can't choose another path or a career because I have dependents now.

[A]

Yeah, I have a mortgage.

[B]

I have a mortgage, I have a daughter. I have whatever it might be. And then you find themselves either happy or unhappy. Like 100 hour work weeks. That becomes what's the norm now. Right. So as you get into that realm, like being stuck, I. You'd be surprised, like, how many people will tell you straight out, like, I never thought of it that way, but I'm stuck.

[A]

The. I think a lot of people, I think the majority of people are stuck. Honestly, I. The interesting thing about Marines going back to that is they're the only branch of the US Military that's not missing their recruiting goals.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's. For one, I think it's because they do a great job of defining the difference. You also earn that title, a Marine that you never lose when you die and your funeral, you still are just. That's when someone dies in the United States of America. Every new Jesus US Marine dies in a car wreck because it's a title that's held high. You know, it's 13 weeks of your life of ups and downs, like being treated like the worst dirt or worse than sewage. And you're built to be a killing machine. Right. And you never lose that. Where the. I don't know that the other branches do a good enough job of glorifying, becoming a member.

[A]

Well, I think also it's the danger of trying to be something for everybody. The Marines haven't fallen into that.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

They've said, we're our own, this is what we are. It's not a good time. It's not for everybody. But if you think it's for you, if you think you're tough enough, come on down.

[B]

It's a challenge.

[A]

Yes, they challenge people, which is hard to do because to say you're not for everybody. One goes against the whole de and I Culture in business nowadays. Two, you're struggling for people, so you can't turn away people. But by trying to make it something for everybody, it becomes something for nobody or just becomes sterile in a sense, and you ironically struggle further. But it's a slower, more painful death. Whereas I think what they've done is well worth studying. And not that it's perfect, but they. And not, not, not have. They only defined that. I think that's a big piece of it. But they've been very diligent about how they recruit.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They've been diligent about who they use as recruiters. They use their best and brightest to be recruiters, not to be in the U.S. marine.

[B]

Yeah. They may also challenge you. So, like, recruiters used to be bad people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But they've been really smart about selection. They select people who can motivate you to want to be it, not just sign up. Like when my father joined, he joined because the judge said, hey, you can either go to Marines, get straightened out, or you can go to jail because he had an alcohol problem. And he chose Marines. No brainer. Right. But that's how it used to be. Now that's not how it is. It's like you were saying, they challenge you to be better. You're like, hey, you're great, you are, but you want to be better. Sign here.

[A]

But that. And that's also a scary thing to do as a company. Well, why would we take our best performers and producers out of producing.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And go use them for recruiting? Like, most companies would never do such a thing. But that again, it's ironically one of the better things you can do long term. Use your best and brightest to find the people you need and then develop the people you need.

[B]

Like, I think, though, the good thing about, I mean, the one thing I recognize in Marines and debates, because I been in, is that a lot of people that are in no matter what your role is, are high performers. So it's really, it's really hard to select who's the best to go because, I mean, we're all wired and programmed and trained the same.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I mean, you do have people who fall below certain standards and they don't look down on. They try to, you know, try to find their strengths. And sometimes I've seen several people change from their primary to several different Moses afterwards. Right. Or jobs. And it's because they constantly try to find where your strongest places. I do a lot with my leadership stuff that I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't always, like, most people focus on weaknesses. In the Marines, they focus on your strengths.

[A]

It is, it is. The further I get down the journey of life, the more I realize some of these, this common knowledge and advice is terrible. And that's one of those things is, yeah, you know, improve your weaknesses. And it's like, I don't know, man.

[B]

How am I gonna do that?

[A]

Yeah. I haven't met any high achieving people that have been, you know what secret of my success is really doubling down on making my weaknesses better. Like, you can't. I think then you can take that too literally. Like, okay, yeah, I need to be a better communicator. I'm not gonna be a remarkable communicator. I need to be better. But I'm gonna focus on what I'm.

[B]

Best at a hundred percent.

[A]

And then I'm gonna let the other people within our executive team especially, I'm gonna let them do what they're best at. And we're all gonna trust each other. We're all gonna build the trust within one another. We're gonna stay in our lanes and it actually works out pretty damn well. Go figure.

[B]

I agree with you. It's funny you mentioned that. Through my shadow work process, I used to beat myself up pretty heavy. Cause I was wired to focus so heavily on my, you know, what I need to improve, you know, because that's the corporate way. Right. And man, it was, it was crazy. I was on this, I was on a long walk. Like I power walk every day. It helps to clear my head. Part what I call self care. And one day just rang a bell. I was like, I've been taking advice on how to improve from people who have never even been through half the stuff I have.

[A]

You have to be careful of that. Yeah.

[B]

What is wrong with me? Why have I not been smart enough to figure that out? Because it was always, hey, Justin, you wear your heart on the sleeve, this and that. I'm like, hell yeah, I wear my heart on the sleeves. I care. I have passion. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. So I think it's important to recognize like, you know, some of these programs and whatnot you listen to. It's like they're not really built for the success of the person.

[A]

Well, that's one of the best things I've learned over the past maybe four, five years I've really focused on it is if I'm going to take this person's advice, are they where I want to be in that category, whatever that category is, relationships, religion, finances, business, whatever it is. And if they're not just discard everything they said, just get rid of it. And that sounds. It's not bad, a little harsh, but you have to, because there's just so much fucking advice out there.

[B]

And it's really easy to get clouded.

[A]

Everybody wants to. And it's hard, too, with people close to you as well, because I think that's where you need to be the most careful, is they really care for you and love you and they're not giving you advice to go steer you wrong intentionally, whatever it is. But it's not always the best thing for you.

[B]

I tell people, you get advice for the easiest path. Yeah, but pain. With pain, you gotta heal, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The easiest route is never the best route. That's life.

[A]

I feel like that's the irony, though, of how a lot of people parent is. They want things better and easier for their kids.

[B]

You don't want to see no one go through pain.

[A]

Yeah. But yet they credit their pain for who they are. You, most of the time, you have to learn.

[B]

You have to go through it. So Nick Lavery says that all the time, man.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You want it? You want to learn, you gotta feel pain.

[A]

Well, and he's been through it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He's been through it more than most.

[B]

I love when he came to Milwaukee. I loved his session. And it was trained to fail.

[A]

That's where Dan met him, was at Milwaukee.

[B]

Yeah. Train to fail. And you know. Cause I never really thought about that because we always call it lesson learned or whatever it might be, or the what ifs, specifically in the sage. Professional what ifs. And when he put it in that format, he's like, hey, listen, I'm going to train you to fail. It's not I really want you to fail, but I want you to know what to do when failure happens.

[A]

Yeah. So you're not paralyzed.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's ironic because I know that his group that he's in the army, they're very multidisciplined. Same with the seals. Not one person on a SEAL team is the exact same. They all know each other's job. But you want different levels or different types of leadership, and you want. Right. So the planning to fail really set well with me because I find that people get stuck. I don't want to say stuck, but into one mode or one way. Life doesn't happen that way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, construction jobs change and drop. I mean, hey, this equipment's not showing up today. All right, so does everybody sit around? No, they're Going to figure it out. Right. But I find that in we in especially when I worked at kiewit, Dave Flickinger was the president of Power Group and he would always raise a red flag on rework because people take shortcuts. You take shortcuts to rework, people get hurt.

[A]

Reworks actually were a vast majority of injuries. Injuries happen.

[B]

So he would always say that, like, hey, life is not the same every day. When it changes, do you just keep going and get hurt? No. Take a pause. He would say, take a pause. And that still sticks to me. I left Kiewit in 2012 and I always remind people that in life when things are going wrong, pause.

[A]

And that.

[B]

And Jocko says it well.

[A]

And that's. But that's, it's contrary in a lot of ways to like the conventional wisdom of like, you've just got to keep.

[B]

Pushing, you know, and that's in the Marine Corps too. You push and keep plugging.

[A]

Yeah. Just never give up.

[B]

Put duct tape on it, whatever. But, you know, that's all great in battle, but in life it's different.

[A]

But even sometimes not, sometimes it's helpful to, if you can take inventory of, hey, what's even happening right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I didn't even see that over there because I was so focused on what's right in front of me here.

[B]

We're emotional human beings. Yeah, the emotions. I talk a lot about that. In the education session that I created called the Human side of Leadership. So many people in construction focus on operational focuses and they don't understand how the operational impacts, the emotional intelligence. Yeah, we make split decisions, emotional decisions based on how we're feeling that day, all of that stuff. And it really does have an impact. So from a leadership perspective, I try to get people's to really take a pause, take inventory. Like, hey, operationally, these are my top five responsibilities. How does that impact emotionally, me or the team? Right. So people purpose, people, expectations. That's three simplified processes to managing yourself or people. Right.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I always talk about that with people like, okay, so here's the operation. What's my purpose? Either me or the teams. Who's my team? What's their strengths? How's it impact them? Okay, we're working 12 hours. Okay. Five of my people have three or more kids. Are they going to be able to do this? Okay, maybe not. Let's talk to them on a human level. Hey, are you able to do this? That kind of stuff? Because that does affect them emotionally.

[A]

That's ridiculous.

[B]

You know what I mean? I'M just saying it just work 12 hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But as, as you're seeing the construction industry evolve, you're hearing the word empathy more. I've seen it a lot more in the last two years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cogniz being cognizant of who your people are, even the way they've been brought up, all of that stuff. And then defining reality, expectations versus make believe. I mean, how many times have you heard, hey, we're going to finish this job 12 months early?

[A]

Well, I think there's a lot of mean, I think there's a lot of make believe in the industry in general right now.

[B]

That's because people that are, I'll be honest, people that are riding these proposals or bids or whatever you want to call them have never done the job.

[A]

And I've started to dig into some of these mega projects that have gone so wrong. And they're not talking about it, but.

[B]

It'S like, well, if you can't get the still or the still comes late, what's these 700 people sitting there doing?

[A]

I read about one in California, it might have something to do with rail. This company comes in out of the United States, they propose this way of doing the project that's going to save like a ridiculous sum of money. Hundreds of millions, if not already red flag, billions of dollars. Yeah. So they come in and they're like, sure. You know, this is such, this is so innovative. Good for you. You can go build it. They didn't use any one bit of the proposed change in design because it's not feasible.

[B]

It's all about money.

[A]

And it ended up being way more expensive and it's not even close to.

[B]

Being completed if it's a time and materials job. That's why they did it that way. When I worked for Kywitt, we did total, we did some time and material jobs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there was a huge incentive package if we finish early. I just, typically we were smarter than the owner and it was about making extra money.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And listen, I get it. Hey, capitalism is, that's construction. But when you're a fine tuned machine, you know what will work.

[A]

The argument in this, in this article I read specifically was that the problem is everything is starting to become so complex from a environmental standpoint, legal standpoint, engineering standpoint, thousand percent, that these agencies, the customer that's supposed to be managing the work and making sure everything is getting done according to how it should be done, on budget, et cetera, they just don't have the horsepower necessary to Monitor these multi billion dollar jobs.

[B]

Experience level is diminished.

[A]

No. So then they have to rely on not just the contractors, but the consultants. And the consultants are the ones making the coin right now on these big projects. Billions of dollars from these consulting fees.

[B]

Experienced people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because of the. Okay, so especially right now, the industry, there's a huge gap in. When you look at the demographics of leadership and people in the construction industry, one of the main reasons for leadership is the recession in 2008. In 2008 and 9 there was a lot of big jobs happening. Right before that I worked for QA at the time I was on Ioton power plant. Got shipped to Massachusetts. At Ioton we were averaging 240,000 man hours a week. Just queue it. Tons of people. And after that job is when the recession started hitting, those people had no work. Where did they get. They left the construction industry. They had wife, kids, vice versa, whatever. And they have family. Their bills don't stop. Right. So the construction industry took a huge hit of loss of people who now would be leading in leadership. They're not there. There's a huge gap in the 35 to 50 year range. A lot of people aren't there.

[A]

Well, and the first thing, like Herb Sargent's talked a lot about this at length.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

You're not developing people while you're in survival mode as a company. You're not training, you're just like just get.

[B]

The construction industry is in survival modes right now.

[A]

Well, it is, yes. But they. During the recession they basically just stopped developing people. So even if you retained people, their development from a leadership standpoint was non existent. So you still have this gap in leadership capital.

[B]

Yeah, I just did. I read an article last two weeks ago said 24.7 billion billion a year right now is spent on leadership training in the construction industry. And of that only 15% of the people being trained for leadership. Right, I'm sorry, only 15% of the construction industry are being trained. But of the 15%, 80 of that 15% is in the C suite.

[A]

Yeah. And I.

[B]

So the people on the ground, the people in the boots on the ground, the people running work and stuff aren't being involved in that. Right. So how's that helping your company? Because the C suite people are 10, 15 years away from retirement. You're not redeveloping.

[A]

I also question what counts as leadership training when human.

[B]

Like human behavior.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's where I was looking at. Not as much financial or what adds to the top money goal or anything. It's more about human leadership development. Like how do you work with people, the different demographics of that.

[A]

But I wonder how much of that training is actually anything even remotely effective too.

[B]

Agreed. Because most of it's production based and.

[A]

Probably a lot of it is within this, this whole new DE and I world. And a lot of it, like a lot of it's. I find a lot of it very disconnected. Yeah. You still from reality? From the field.

[B]

I work in Boston. I worked in Boston for many years. You know that. And there's not many things that I really agree with from where I'm from, but one of the things I do, I'd say is the trade professionals there, they don't care, gender, color, anything like that. They just, if you show up and you can do your job, they embrace you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't care about all the programs, you know, all that stuff. It's like you show up, you do your job great. If not, I'm going to tell you about it. And so it's great. And that's the way I wish it was everywhere. Because trade professionals just want to come and make a living.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that, you know, I mean that it's just cramming all these stupid programs. And I'm not saying they're stupid because in some parts of the country there's people who don't get a chance. I understand that.

[A]

Get it.

[B]

And I agree that everyone should have a chance to make a living. That's how I was raised and I believe in that. I managed my. You can do the job. Do the job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't care if you have long hair, short hair, whatever, man. Same in the Marine Corps. We're not, we're not based on color. It's dark or light. Marine. WM or Marine. You still have the title Marine. Like you can do job great, not don't, don't be around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in the construction industry, it's, it's. I struggle with seeing all these different programs if they're not really effective.

[A]

I just, I think like the problem in a lot of ways could be solved. You go into Blattner's office, I love it. Because they have all the signs everywhere that say you, you either work in the field or support somebody that does. If everybody spent more time in the field, if all these people in the office got around to the field a little bit more, like even from a.

[B]

Training standpoint, boots on the ground, 100%.

[A]

I need to get my HR people into the field Quarterly. I don't know what that looks like.

[B]

But even just it should be every month.

[A]

It should be every month. But right now it's probably not ever. And if you were able to do that, though, just that level of understanding, like, I feel like that's another thing the Marines do really well. Dan always talks about this is like, hey, no matter where you are in the Marines, you're supporting the guy with the rifle because that is the U.S. marines.

[B]

Well, the other part is it doesn't matter what level of commander you are, whether it's second lieutenant all the way up to general. They have a rifle in their hand and they're in their field with you.

[A]

Yes, yeah, yeah, yes.

[B]

I mean, you do have some that.

[A]

Whatever, but you've got plenty of those still.

[B]

Most officers that I ever encountered, and still to this day, I have lots of good friends. They're about the people. Yeah, they're about. They're people making. I saw a three star general yesterday walking back from the marathon because I did the 10k. I was walking back and he said, hey, stop. I was walking across Freedom Bridge. I was like, yes, sir. I had never met a three star general ever in my career life. He goes, hey, stop, stop. You doing okay? And I was like, yeah. Why, do I look bad? He goes, no. He goes, thank you for doing the run today and supporting. He goes, when did you get out? I said, 93. And I go, I've never met a three sergeant general to talk to people. He goes, things have changed, man. We're about the people. I mean, I'm not scripting this. I'm just saying he said that he's with his wife. It's like, well, thank you. Shook his hand and kept walking like, yeah, stop and talk to me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

31 years ago, that would have never happened. Yeah, but it's reality. Boots on the ground. You hear me say a term a lot. I've been pushing that in the construction. That was the key way. I mean, boots on the glove, boots on the ground, gloves on the hand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That was kind of their mindset. It was, you want to be about the people, you got to be with the people. And field experience is number one.

[A]

Well, and like in this book, this is, this book's actually about Kiewit. That was one of the big things. Peter Kiewit, he was always out on the job, especially when things were going bad.

[B]

I mean, think, think about the history of that company. Started out as a Mason company.

[A]

It's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, they make you go through the, the program when you join. They make you go through. If you want the book. You got to go take a class.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Masons and culture class, Nebraska.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now here you are building the world.

[B]

They got a DOD job and that made the company explode.

[A]

It was definitely World War II was good for them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. World War II is good for business. And I didn't. They don't. You don't talk about. When you learn about World War II, the focus is obviously on Europe and the Pacific theater, not back home. But it's like our whole economy became a war economy to support this effort.

[B]

We were just talking about the wooden handles down the street.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The whole economy was retooled to go to war, and Kiewit was one of the big beneficiaries of it. I've also read the Bechtel book, and it's like, oh, that's where they go build all this stuff. It's all for the Department of Defense and the federal government.

[B]

Federal. Federal grant. Federal money is big jobs.

[A]

That's where it's at. Yeah. How long were you at Kiewit for?

[B]

11 years.

[A]

Oh, wow. You did a while.

[B]

Yeah. So that's 100 hour weeks. I tell everybody, like, when I left there, I could have, by theory, the amount of hours I worked, I should have been able to retire.

[A]

Yeah. So that's a long time. Yeah. Usually it's, you know, people make it a few years and then.

[B]

Oh, they disowned me as soon as I put my papers in, man. What do you mean you're leaving?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Cause you were probably getting to the.

[B]

Point where I was up there.

[A]

You get into the stock program?

[B]

Yeah, I was running big jobs, man, like Brayton Point, and I was at the cooling tower. And then the AQs in the back, I mean, combined it was. And it doesn't sound like a lot now, but it was a $2 billion job.

[A]

Every project's a $2 billion job nowadays.

[B]

But that was in 2008 through 2012. I mean, there wasn't 2 billion dollar jobs back then.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I mean, we did finish that job nine months early, but they got a $65 million bonus for it. Yeah, I mean, that's what they.

[A]

That's one of the big things they do is. So how much money could you give us if we finished this early? I mean, they're not down $65 million.

[B]

Yeah. We added an extra shift. We had four shifts.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. Then they just come through and just blow it out. I watched them. I think it was. I70 in Denver.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Watching them just and they just kick the shit out of the job.

[B]

I'll tell you their road, they're. The Denver district is their civil group. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They know how to do work, man.

[A]

They smoked that one.

[B]

They bonded. The i93 extension job in Boston where they would tear down and replace three bridges on a weekend. And it was a JV job. But who could do that?

[A]

Yeah, they did.

[B]

They never were late. And it's pretty serious, man. You can tear down a bridge and put it back where people can use it on Monday, you start on Friday evening.

[A]

Were you always in safety when you were with them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How'd you get into safety to begin with? Because that's not a very sought after job. I would say that's not the job. Like, yeah, you know what? I want to be safety.

[B]

You see a lot of you. It's funny, it wasn't my original path. And it's funny you say it because I, I do a lot of mentoring, but also a lot of education session with safety professionals. I explained to them safety is one of the most mentally challenging jobs I've ever encountered in my life.

[A]

I think that's why people. Yeah. Don't want to do it.

[B]

It's really tough because you're constantly dealing with compliance issue. Which compliance is a bad word. You're trying to get people to do the right thing so they don't get hurt. And you have to constantly fight with them in a way that seems like you gotta be nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're constantly like divided in your mind. But you always have to do with a smile.

[A]

And only one thing has to go wrong.

[B]

And then it's your ass.

[A]

Yeah. For it to be your ass.

[B]

State to people who have been fall guys forever.

[A]

Yeah. You can do 10,000 things right, do it all. One thing goes wrong that you have nothing to do with.

[B]

It's just like human life. Everyone. You do all this great stuff, but people will remember the one little thing that went wrong and you really didn't have any part of it. Right. So. But anyways, I was an iron worker and I was very fortunate because I got laid off. It made me figure out like, geez, I was like number 300 on the list sitting. And I'm grateful that the business agent was honest to me. Just listen, kid, you got no family, you got no wife, no. No kids. All these other people got kids, man. Like, it's gonna be a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, not that we don't appreciate back then. They didn't have one foreman to have five Apprentice conversations. It was whoever got called up was the number on the list or who, who knew you kind of deal. But he was least honest, like, hey, you don't have any family, kids, so not that you're not important. These other people have a little bit more prioritized. Okay. I didn't take personal. At least he was honest to me. Got the picture. So I worked my ass off to try to get into the fire service. And I got very lucky that the Open park fire department grabbed onto me and tried being a firefighter medic. And while I was doing it, there was a captain at a safety company on the side and part of the fire service. You learn how to save and rescue people in confined spaces. It's part of Firefighter 1 and 2, the University of Kansas program I went through. So I was fortunate I had that. He goes, hey, you want to come work on the side? Make some extra money? I made $41,000 a year, plus I'd get a shift every once in a while. So $46,000 a year. I wasn't making any money.

[A]

Flush with cash. And you have a lot of days off as a. We had a lot of days off.

[B]

So I mean, I worked construction, building houses and some of my days off. And then he offered me to work part time being a confined space rescue tech. I was like, well, how much does it offer? And he goes, it's right around 40 bucks an hour. It was 39 something bucks an hour. I'm like, I'll do it.

[A]

I think I could do that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, dude. I mean, I was working 30 hours a week for that guy, his company at Bayer in Kansas City, because they do shutdowns. They clean these tanks and nasty stuff, man. When you think of Bayer, you don't think like they make shampoo. They make like it's bad stuff. So if someone was to fall, break their leg and we'd go in and rescue them. So standby. 40 something bucks, almost 40 bucks an hour. I was a game.

[A]

So it's kind of like an off duty cop doing traffic control. You're just there in case something happens.

[B]

Go in, rest you, and then that's it.

[A]

I see.

[B]

We only had to go pull a guy out once and he broke his leg. So it was really easy gig. But they were paying good money. So one thing led to another and we were actually at a olin Mills in St. Joseph, Missouri. They had a big plant that made cereal and different products from corn. I mean, obviously corn, biggest corn area of the nation almost, right? They send all their corn there and they make cerealists and they didn't shut down. And the project manager would say hi to me every once in a while to hang out. And he came up by and went, hey, can I talk to you later on today? I was like, yeah. In the back of my mind I was like, oh God, man, I upset somebody, you know, because he didn't talk to me. Then he pulled me aside and was like, hey, I'd really like to see if you would come to work here. I was like, what do you mean? He goes, we haven't had any injuries since you've been on our job. I mean, everybody's talking about how you were, hey, man, that doesn't look too safe. Or just have the conversation with someone. And it wasn't like I was telling them that they were being idiots or anything. It's like, hey, dude, I'm trying to learn, like just communication. Yeah, Normal everyday conversation, non compliant. It was just like, hey, I just don't want you to get hurt. Why are you doing it that way? Or whatever. And you ever thought about getting the safety? It's like, no, not really. And he goes, we'll start you out at $100,000 a year.

[A]

And then that was that.

[B]

That was that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

$46,000 a year working crazy hours. $100,000 a year. And I get a $20,000 bonus if we go injury free.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's all she wrote.

[A]

And then you got into the construction.

[B]

Not that long after that was technically construction because they were doing shutdowns.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

So that company got bought by kiewit.

[A]

Oh, and that's how you got into that world.

[B]

Next thing you know, they're like, hey, you're gonna go to this job? Yeah, you're going to that job.

[A]

I see.

[B]

11 years later.

[A]

And you were safety the whole time with them.

[B]

I had to get my OSHA 500 on that job. That was it.

[A]

What is, what is OSHA?

[B]

That means you can train OSHA 1030 hour back then. Well, nowadays you have to have five years experience into construction industry. Back then you just had to have the OSHA 30 hour.

[A]

Do you think OSHA 10, OSHA 30 is effective?

[B]

No. I don't either now. Not for the way it's used. And when I say that, I think parts of it are effective. But the, the way people use it when they talk. All of our people are trained OSHA 10 or OSHA 30. That means they're safe. No, that's not how, that's not Even why it's meant.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

It's a program designed and I understand why OSHA has regulated the way it's used now. It was really designed to proactively teach people entering the construction industry on types of risk they're going to be exposed to and how to understand how to protect themselves. And the 30 hour was originally supposed to be like this is where and how you find the information to be a better supervisor or leader. However, since it was developed, people have really like, oh, almost at 30 I'm a better leader just because of that.

[A]

It became a business too. Once it becomes a business. It does. Yeah. There's.

[B]

Well, now people charge like all this crazy money.

[A]

That's what I mean.

[B]

I'll tell you. I think I've only been paid to teach 10 hour a few times just because it was make extra money when I was working safety for a large GC that they needed it for a program that they were working with. Besides that, I've always done it for free. I make it about life experiences.

[A]

I thought, I thought it was. It was good to. Yeah. Learn the basics. Like it's good general information. Okay, I need a ladder over so and so.

[B]

Here's how you inspect it.

[A]

Trench. Yeah, yeah. You know, tag, you know, hey, if the ladder is damaged, don't use it. So and so forth. Stuff that's not. I would not say it's common knowledge. It's common knowledge to people that have been on job sites for a while, but it's not common knowledge to somebody just entering the industry.

[B]

It's entry level is what it's meant for now.

[A]

Yeah. The struggle that I had with it one was that it's primarily for vertical construction, very little for civil construction. So you're learning a lot of stuff, a lot of information that has nothing to do with what you're gonna do.

[B]

It has just so just like in like. I'm very close to like high level people in OSHA that are like way up the food chain and they'll be the first to admit that unfortunately, the way the Department of Labor and OSHA standards are written, it's like takes 10 years to change something.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. It's not their fault.

[B]

Yeah. The system they're in the industry has. You know, we're human beings, man. We ain't waiting. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is rapidly evolving with. No. No matter whether it's technology and power tools, PPE or even equipment, whatever it might be. Right. Their standards, which is the minimum standard to work by, are way behind where the Industry is. They can't keep up.

[A]

That's how mining is too. Yeah, same mining's even worse because they've. The rule book has literally not changed since the 70s.

[B]

I'm surprised it doesn't still say, you need a canary.

[A]

They wrote it after the canary thing got phased out.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

But it is worthy. Wildly antiquated, yes. But it was good for me to learn the basics. I would say it could have been of 30 OSHA 5 and I would have got the basics of civil construction. But what was by far the most impactful was the horror stories. As soon as my foreman, the first foreman I worked for, he showed me this picture of this guy. Someone kicked a roofing tile off a building like five stories up, smoked a guy in the head. And he showed me the picture of it and it was. It was terrible. I can visualize it right now.

[B]

Active learning is the best way for construction people to learn.

[A]

I saw that. I'm like, you don't have to tell me twice or I see what happened to a guy that got a trench collapsed in on him. Just buried to his waist. Still somehow dies.

[B]

The crushing injuries is part of it. Yeah.

[A]

They just got their legs crushed. They can still technically breathe.

[B]

All their organs are dead underneath.

[A]

That was all that. That was required. Go straight to the heart, you're dead. That was all I needed to know. It's like that kind of stuff was way more effective. I was way more frightening.

[B]

I agree with you, man. I was very fortunate that the person I took the OSHA 500 from, his name's Jim Goss. Really amazing individual. He's been a safety, I mean, forever. He's part of the Keene State group as well. Cause that's where I took my 500 from. And he made that a big point. And he's like, listen, you want to impact your students, share the information you learn as you go with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's important. I call it ill injury, incident, learning opportunity. I put real stories like what happens to people in these. And that's something I learned at kiewit, actually. We called it an incident alert. One incident happened on this job. The whole nation would hear about it throughout the Cuban network.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's because they don't want to happen to other people. I felt like that's the same way. And I integrated that into my training practices long time ago. That was because Jimmy Goss, that was a big part. He's like, they're going to learn if you share real incidents with them. It's important.

[A]

And I think that sharing is amazing. I've also seen it do the absolute opposite.

[B]

It could scare the bajeek. A lot of people do.

[A]

Scares the shit out of you. And you don't report stuff. Especially like, they're like, they're always like, report everything, even a cut. And I'm thinking in the back of my mind, like, there's no fucking chance that I report a cut to you. Not a chance.

[B]

That's a bad culture. If someone does, if that's your culture.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you terminate them.

[A]

And I've seen. I've seen that. I've seen somebody make a very basic error and they've probably like, it's an error that anybody could make.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It scratched a piece of equipment.

[B]

We're all human beings.

[A]

Wasn't ideal. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It like, it happens. It happens and fired right on the spot. Right, right there. Fired right on the spot. And it's like. So we're not going to have a conversation, be like, hey, again, empathy towards the. Let's learn here. So what happened? Just fired the guy. Like that. And it's like the whole rest of the crew's sitting there watching it. Like, okay, I am not going to.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's a bad culture. I'll be honest.

[A]

Well, it's an enforcement culture.

[B]

I'm grateful that I have the knowledge and the backing to where if I did work somewhere like that, that I could be like, I'm out of here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cause I would refuse to work in that kind of environment because I do want the person to tell me when things happen, cut, whatever. Because I look at everything as a learning opportunity and you don't have to. I mean, again, the empathy. Human side, like, people have lives going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They have a thing in here called the brain. Just because you're at work doesn't mean you're not thinking about your wife's going through chemo or one of your kids got something going on in their life, they're getting bad grades, you're getting a divorce. Whatever it might be, it doesn't stop like, okay, listen, I'm going through divorce right now, whatever it might be. I forgot to put my glasses on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a person I worked out for the Brayton Point who worked on the. Ran the plant side. I'll never forget this. He called me, say, hey, because if you got fired from that location, you got put on a permanent ban list. That is the only power plant in that area that people would do shutdowns. That was their life. That was how they provided for their families. So this guy called me and was like, hey, I was coming in this morning and one of your people didn't have glasses on. I was like, okay. And he goes, you know what that means? I was like, I'll have a conversation with him. He's no, I want you to bring him and have a conversation with me. I was like, no problem. I knew the person that he was talking about was one of our top foremen. And I know why he removed his glasses. Because he was on the phone, took it off. He can't see the phone with the safety glass. They're fogged up. It was a muggy day. So anyways, we go in there and he goes, I'd like you to let this guy go. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. And he goes, what do you mean? I was like, did you have a conversation with him? And he goes, why did I need to have conversation? You didn't have a glass. You know the rules. Like, why did you not have your glasses on this morning? He goes, because I can't see the phone who was texting or calling me. And this was in 2010, I think it was when texting Jess. So he's still learning how to use the phone that we had just given him at keyword, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I couldn't see it because my glasses were all fogged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So is he. Is. Does. Do I let the guy trip and fall?

[A]

It's.

[B]

Or do I let him take his glasses off?

[A]

But that's where. And that's what like.

[B]

But he wanted me a fire guy.

[A]

I struggle. That's indicative, though, of how a lot of this world works. It's just so compliance based. We're gonna make one rule. You always wear glasses. Okay, so we're not gonna acknowledge that sometimes glasses, human side are not necessary. Stuff happens get in the way of things. Like, I've been in so many situations where everybody's glasses are fogging up like.

[B]

Wild in New England. That's normal.

[A]

I could argue that it's more dangerous for us to be walking around this job site with no present danger of anything flying into the mouth.

[B]

During COVID During COVID is the worst safety professional nightmare.

[A]

You're going to have a mask on.

[B]

And glasses and glasses.

[A]

Get out of here.

[B]

I'll never forget I had this. I had a lead super on job call me. He goes, justin, I need to have a real world conversation with you. I knew he was upset about something and I was like, okay, What's. What's up? And he. He goes, I'm really trying hard to be compliant here, but you're making. And forcing me to wear a mask. I'm like, I'm not forcing you to wear the mask. The state of Massachusetts is. It's just part of the rules. Stay open. So we stay open. He goes, okay, that's great. I just almost fell down a flight of stairs because my glasses are so fogged up. So which is it? What's more important? Do I take the glasses off or do I take the mask off? I was like, take the glasses off, man, for God's sake. I want you to be able to see. Why are you even calling and asking me this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was so worried about being lead by example, which I was. Okay. I was grateful for. But that was an everyday conversation. It was nuts.

[A]

Like, I just. And this. I think. This is where I think people are very reasonable.

[B]

Most people are.

[A]

Most people are.

[B]

They want to do the right thing.

[A]

But if you're honest with them, they understand. And so I just struggle when it's like, hey, you have to do this. And it's almost a threat. It's not a threat, but it's a threat.

[B]

It's a threat.

[A]

And because you're our number one priority and you are most important here, this is for your safety. And then they go do a hundred things that's like, all the time. I know. I'm not the priority. I know. So the priority. We're building this building. The priority is me. No, it's not.

[B]

It's building the building.

[A]

I wouldn't be here if the priority. If safety was. That was the most important thing. We wouldn't be like, I just. I wish there was an honest conversation about it.

[B]

Like, hey, I'll tell you that we've.

[A]

Had so many hand injuries, it's just out of control. And this is really hurting the company. Xyz. And we know that it's going to be inconvenient for you, but it's really important that we do this. I get it. It's not for everything, but this is what we've got to do right now to ensure that we can keep our clients happy. Keep building. If it's put like that, okay, I understand it. I get it. But it's never framed like that. It's never honest.

[B]

I'll tell you, man, the most important part of any safety culture, and this is the only way I work now, is it's got to legitimately be about the people doing the work and the Only way to do that is to involve them.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So I use committees, anything that like. So before I was to say, hey, I would like to transition to these kind of gloves or the helmet. We talked about that in the past. What's your opinion on this? And I want them to pick. I want them to be involved in the why. Right. Because they're the ones wearing it. They're the ones. I ran into that breaking point. I got called at 2:00 in the morning. Justin, we have an eye injury. With Boy the Maker working night shift, I lived 15 minutes from a job. It was on purpose. I needed to come in, help the guy. Well, I come in, hey. He had a. He had a piece of junk in his eye. I was able to touch it with a Q tip, got it out, he was fine. He was excited. He thought it was slag, maybe burned into his eye. I was worried. I said, hey, I'm going to try this two times. If I get it, great. If not, we'll take you to hospital. Straight across the board. So I got it out. And of course he was worried he was going to get fired. That, you know, Cause hey, you must not have your glasses on bullshit, right? So I asked him, I was like, hey, what happened? And I want you to be honest with me because I don't want to lie into my report. I'm very big on ethics. And he goes, I have my glasses on, Justin. He goes, but the problem is when they fog, I had to slide them down because I had my welding shield on. You know, because he's welding, he's welding. He goes, if I roll him down like this, I still technically have him on, but I can still see through the square. I think it's 2 by 5 inches of a opening on his welding hood. And he said that I had to slid down because we, we didn't like people to wear glasses with a hood down because it would amplify the brightness of the light and damage your eyes worse. Allegedly.

[A]

That's what we were told.

[B]

So he said, I have my glasses on, but when I lift my hood, shit slipped down. Like, listen, that's every day. For a bore they make, they work in some of the most disgusting work areas ever, right? And he's welding. I'm like, he was honest. So I tell my project manager the next day. And project manager was like, oh, you can't put that in report. We're all getting fired. I'm like, not me. I ain't getting fired because I'm telling the truth. So I Did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we were told, figure it out. Doesn't matter how much money you spent, no problem. So I grabbed four of. We had a safety walk group that week. Every week it changes. Different foremen, different apprentice. I said, hey, we're going on a road trip. I'm like, oh, great. So I went and drove to a Harley Davidson dealership right down the road and said, here's all the glasses they offer. Which ones do you guys like? Because they were complaining. They didn't like the type of glasses they fogged up. They picked Wiley X's $80 glasses. I bought 10 of them. I had a P card, brought them back to the job. Guys liked them, they started wearing them. No issue. Week later, I called Wiley XC. Hey, can I buy 200 pair of glasses? They're like, yeah. So I bought six different types. They shipped them overnight. It was like almost $90,000. Safety glasses, bomb line, everything. We created a sizing program because they were fog free, allegedly. And they didn't fog up. They were like, legit. But the guys all knew we cared about them. No one got fired. But we were honest, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Two weeks later. This is like a program they're running through the whole company now. Because we were honest. Right. And my project manager was terrified because he wanted to make up some other elaborate story because, like you were saying, he was afraid everyone was going to get fired.

[A]

You don't want to be that guy.

[B]

That's the bad culture. Right. So I've always worked in every culture I work in now, number one is honesty. But you involve trade professionals to make decisions, whether it's policy compliance, engagement, whatever it might be. Right. Hey, this might be a cool idea on my idea on my side, but they may not be something they like if they're. If they. If you really want their DNA on your program, you gotta involve them.

[A]

Oh, and yeah, you're not the one using the shit every day.

[B]

Plus. I'm not. I'm not. Yes. I was an iron worker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do I watch human behavior? Have I done it for 30 years? Yes, but that's. I'm not that. That's their profession. They know how to like. They know well.

[A]

Even if you know, though, just giving them the opportunity to provide feedback, that's called buy in. It goes a long way. Yeah, they're.

[B]

It's respect.

[A]

I think like, one of the favorite, favorite things I've heard from Jocko is intent has a smell.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think people are smart enough too to really understand if the company and their leaders do genuinely Care for them or if they don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the companies that do genuinely care, they have a different feeling to them.

[B]

It's competitive now.

[A]

I've seen a lot of very competitive.

[B]

Now where I've seen trade professionals that will quit a job and go work for a company that cares about them totally. And they'll make a dollar less an hour.

[A]

I tell people to do that all the time. I'm like, hey, if they don't give a shit about you, find a company.

[B]

That does, because they can't. Hey, the trade professional, it's in their corner right now. There's 500,000 open jobs in the construction industry. And it's in their corners. If they want to, it's in their best interest to work somewhere that cares for them. Yeah, right. Tools, all that. So if they go somewhere that does, it's on them. They can pick up and go.

[A]

I struggle with. I just struggle with the whole, like, I just don't like being treated like a six year old. And I think a lot of times they treat people like six year olds. Listen, you don't know. You don't know how to take care of yourself. So we're gonna tell you what you have to do because we're. Because we know.

[B]

Back to what I was saying earlier, I was being judged by people who have. No, not even a glimpse of my experience telling me what I need to do.

[A]

And that's what I struggled with, with the whole Covid thing too, because it got wrapped into the safety realm as well.

[B]

It's like I almost killed myself because of it.

[A]

Some of these people, it's like, you're gonna tell me how to be healthy. You couldn't even walk. Walk a mile, dude. So I'm good. I don't need to take advice from you. I don't need to listen to you because.

[B]

Just that you say that.

[A]

Just look in the mirror and it's not to be an ass, but it's like, it's reality.

[B]

It's an impression.

[A]

And if I'm empowered, first and foremost, safety should be. I'm incentivized to be safe. Whenever somebody says, you know, some people, they get really nervous when we're on job, when we're on job sites and they haven't seen us work, so on and so forth. It's like, oh, these fucking guys with cameras, they're just gonna get in the way of this and that and they'll save my life. Yeah, they'll say things like, along the lines, like, you know, this and that, and I Say it jokingly, but serious. Like, listen, I don't want to get run over by a, by a mining truck more than you don't want me to get run over by a mining truck. Because, I mean, I promise you, you're.

[B]

Like a little pebble for that thing.

[A]

Yeah, I. But I. But I promise you, like, you're the one that has to do the paperwork. I'm the one that got run over. So I. I am inside there with you. Yeah. First, and like, we are on the same team, man. I promise. Like, do you.

[B]

Do I need more brighter stuff on?

[A]

It's. It. But it's like. And even, Even if it's like I'm just some safety guy in this big corporation, I think being honest with people, like I said with the gloves thing, like, guys, I know this is a pain in the ass. I know the 100% glove thing. Yeah, it sucks sometimes. But hey, can I get you some different types of gloves?

[B]

Let's find what works.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I know maybe you need latex over here, but then you need something more, you know, leather over here, but then you need something more.

[B]

I'm telling. You know that. Because 15 years ago, it was one fit all.

[A]

Yeah, but that.

[B]

And that's not. That's messed up.

[A]

But people that have done, like, especially watching. I've talked to so many mechanics. Oh, yeah, the 100% glove thing drives them.

[B]

I know. My. My uncle's a master mechanic because you.

[A]

Have to do like, you have to.

[B]

Do certain things with your high dexterity gloves now, man. Like.

[A]

Yes, but even they even say those. Yeah, like, even they say, you know, well, why don't you just wear latex? But then you'll get oil.

[B]

That dissolves the glove right in front of my face.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I. I know, dude.

[B]

Like, when my. I've been, you know, I 100. Like, one of the things that I love about what you said is first and foremost, like, the heavy haul trucks. I. I love how you post pictures, like, especially like the tire or like where the person standing is like just.

[A]

The tread of it almost like, awesome.

[B]

It's taller than, you know, some of these heavy haul trucks are almost as tall as some of the mega yachts, you know? But yeah, if you were, you'd be like a piece of dust. Right?

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, I'm with you. Like, I don't think people realize how big they are.

[A]

Oh. But I, I just like, they always come at it from like, like, please, for me, don't get run over.

[B]

And it's like, dude, dude, if I even hear that thing within 50ft of me, I'm going the other way.

[A]

We're good. Like. Yeah, I. Cause I have the attitude my safety is my responsibility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm. I'm not counting on Justin.

[B]

I tell anybody else to keep me safe for your sake.

[A]

Yeah. If I'm counting on somebody else, I am.

[B]

You're done.

[A]

But. But the. The flaw in some of these programs is it fools people into thinking that I'm in charge of your safety, or it's on the safety guy or whatever it is. It's not. It's not on you. And then you start to get. You start to get a little. It's kind of the same thing with right now, with law enforcement in a lot of ways. So if you look at the average response time for law enforcement in major metro areas across the United States because of what's happened, especially over the past few years, it's really bad.

[B]

Yeah. It used to be the average was four to six minutes. Now it's like 11 to 12, sometimes.

[A]

Even more than that.

[B]

When you cut somebody's in your house. When I worked and when I lived in Kansas City, I'll never forget, man. And this was before 2010. I'll never forget. I'm called. The girl I lived with at the time called 911. We were watching a woman outside our house get attacked, and she calls 911. And I'll never forget. It rang and rang and rang, and someone finally opened it. She's like, 911, call center, we'll have to call you right back. And I'm like, yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I went outside and I had a firearm at the time, and I said, hey, stop. But got up and ran. But the police showed up like, five minutes later. And the girl's like, oh, I'm okay. I'm like, man, maybe if you would have got here when the guy was on top of her, choking her out. Shoot. You know, I've gone.

[A]

But I've gone my whole life. I've just. I've gone my whole life thinking if something happens, the police will be there immediately. But then you look at the math, and you're like.

[B]

And unfortunately, I feel bad because the people that are actually dealing and doing the job get the bad rap.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, it's. And I'm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is not just like, what you're talking about. This is not giving the police safety and everything, but.

[B]

But the mechanism of the setup.

[A]

But. But that, like, just life safety. It's like, oh, that's my responsibility. Like My safety and security is my responsibility. It's not on law enforcement. I. I need to make sure I'm good to go. My family's good to go, first and foremost. Like, that's my responsibility. And I think some people are raised that way. I wasn't.

[B]

I love that you're saying this because in my orientation in Kiewit, after, like, my fourth or fifth year, I started opening my orientation process because it was all day, you know, that I would tell people, hey, my role as project safety manager here, I want you to be the first and foremost. I don't want anybody to get hurt. But safety. Your safety is your responsibility. And your job as a trade professional in this job is to make sure you hold me accountable for the program we're running. If you don't think it's running the way I'm telling you today, your job is to stop me and say, hey, Justin, this is not right, because I want to fix it. And that set a whole different tone for the people that were on the job, because I straight out will tell them, I'm not responsible for your safety. You are. We're going to tell you our program. And if. When you get out in the field, if it's not that way, I'm out on boots on the ground every day. You need to stop me. I want to hear about it, because we all agreed on this program, and if they're not doing it that way, I want you to let me know. And the project manager would tell them same thing. But the project manager, he had to stick. He'd be out in the field every day. Bill Bodner was his name. He's the Eastern District manager now. Greatest people person I ever met in my life. He'd go out and shake hands. He said, justin, come on. Every morning he'd be at the gate. He called it kissing babies, shaking hands.

[A]

Yep. I say that all the time.

[B]

He knew, and I knew almost every person's first name on that job without looking at their helmet. I got to know him. I mean, I learned that from Bill Bodner. That's why he's leader now. But it came down to that. And again, man, I think it's important to. If you do it. We were talking about setting up a program, making something that's viable, and then making it about the people.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

That's safety.

[A]

Like I said, I could not be more for safety, but I just don't. Yeah, I just. I don't like it when it's made into something it's not. We're not here to do safety. We're here to do work, productive work.

[B]

In a safe way, safely. Yeah.

[A]

We're not here to do safety. And like I've seen it on fences. We do safety here. Like, no, no, if that was true, you wouldn't be building anything. You would just have everybody, all your employees, stay in bed. Stay in bed.

[B]

I love that you're saying, don't leave your home. So I love what you're like, we're here to build this safely.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I love that. But in the real world, unfortunately, you have a lot of contractors. Whether it's GCs, subcontractors or owners, they have magnificent programs written on paper and they try to stick to a program. It's efficient, productive. You always hear the word production.

[A]

Yep, yep, yep.

[B]

Of course. And I'm really, I'm not a big, like I pushed back a million times. I was like, with our people at my company, I'm like, we don't use the word production in safety. It's not the same. But you have these programs. But then what happens is the group that designs the project or is not part of the company that's doing the work, they design. And I ran into this a lot in Boston. I was fortunate at Kiewit because most of the pro projects that we do at Kiewit are designed by Kiwit.

[A]

They have their own engineering design build. Yeah.

[B]

But unfortunately in a lot of the world now, those large companies don't have the design. It's not all self perform, it's not all self design. So you have these engineers where all this stuff mathematically looks amazing on paper. So a great example is when you put a chiller on the top of a building, right. And then you have to put a fan on top of the chiller in one of the highest places in the building. And it always weighs like 12 or 18,000 pounds, right. So you have these engineers that design all this amazing stuff. They never think about the poor soul that's got a install it. Like a great instance is downtown Boston. We built several buildings where we did the mechanical for when I worked for Canistrero, we call it post sustained building. Right. The chiller or even the water tank for fire suppression was always 12 to 18,000 pounds. And in order to get it put in place, I mean One building was 62 stories, the Millennium Tower. And the other one was a JME JMA job in the middle of Seaport. That job, you had to have a 350 foot tall crane just to get it because there was not enough space. So it was a mobile crane. Yeah, it was 10,000. If they would have been smart, they would added 10,000 extra pounds to the weight for the tower crane. But they wanted to save like $200,000 for the duration of the rental of the crane. Not putting the £10,000 on. They had to bring in a special 350 foot crane with enough ass in it to lift the piece because the wind load, they cost them more than it would have been for rent and all that stuff. Right. So then when we get to putting the stuff in place. Place. A pipe fitter is part of the rigging team. It's got to go up on top, unhook the hook and then secure. Like the way the fan was designed, it couldn't be moved a certain amount during installation or it'd ruin the bearings. They then had to go take a cover, a cover off, go in and remove a thing holding the bearings in place. 62 stories above a building and nowhere to tie off to.

[A]

This is where.

[B]

So how am I supposed to tell a guy we care about your safety.

[A]

But just get the job done.

[B]

But go up there, 62 stories, that's 600ft above ground level.

[A]

Yeah, do that.

[B]

And you can't tie off that one.

[A]

Well, there's also the weird thing that starts to happen. The mutation that is like that where you run into something where it's like.

[B]

I know it's really. But like stuff like that happens all.

[A]

Happens all the time. That and then schedule pressure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, okay, you guys. And they, they, you know, like this is what Rockefeller would do. He would never be involved in what actually had to be done. He didn't want to know. Plausible deniability. He would all, you know, just say, just do it. Just whatever it takes, just get it done. And then they'd go blow up some pipeline or something like that. But he would never be involved. You know, something like, oh my God, no, I never told him to blow up a pipeline. Are you kidding me? It didn't even go that far. Like he was so far removed. But it's like that's, that's also, I think you can see the companies where safety really is the priority and then you can see the companies where safety is a priority until we have to get done. And then it's like, just get the job done. I'm going to be over here, I'm not going to ask any questions. And that's not the conversation that they have, but it's kind of implied, like just, just, just get it done. Just get it done. Whatever you need to do, just get it done. And that's when things start to slip as well.

[B]

I'll tell you what I learned after that first time we had to do that. We put in our contract, Canistero did afterwards, in order for us to be part of that, part of an operation, that the manufacturer would have to install ball protection hooks for us. And the general contractor was like, why is this here? And we explained to them, and they're like, oh. So then it became a contractual issue.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Um, I was really happy to see the owners of that company have the balls that tell a GC like, hey, this is a $30 million contract, but we're not going to do it unless you do this.

[A]

But I can. I can.

[B]

Not all companies do that.

[A]

And I can understand why in a lot of ways, too. It's like, you need the job. Yeah.

[B]

But they're like, dude, that person fell. That's going to cost me $90 million.

[A]

Sure, sure. But.

[B]

But that's another risk.

[A]

So that's another side of safety, though, that I wish the industry was honest about.

[B]

People don't even think about that.

[A]

So safety is motivated by money.

[B]

That's my job.

[A]

It's bad for business to kill people.

[B]

I explained to people that's it all the time. Like, they do not understand. As a safety professional, my job is not to go out and tell people glasses.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Even IOLA programs, I'm more financially part of the red line than anybody in this organization.

[A]

And it's financially motivated for everybody. Like, listen, leadership, communication, though, 100%, because. And this is what I ran into when I was in construction. I'm sure a lot of people have. For so many different things, you're using the better tool, but you're not the tough guy now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like, oh, look at you, you fucking nerd. Like, oh, cool tool man. Yeah. We're gonna be over here with our real man tools.

[B]

Yeah. That matcha mentality, it's crazy.

[A]

It's real.

[B]

It's real.

[A]

It will be there for a very long time. And this is where you have to be confident enough and you as an individual to just say, Ambro. Yeah, 1K kick rocks, too. Don't even say it. You don't even need to. You don't even need to acknowledge it. Yeah, I'm gonna be an over here with my stupid little tool. I. Like, there were a few different things that I did when I was in the field working on pipe crews that I did look like an asshole, but I knew I was protecting myself in adequate ways. Like Arizona in the sun, for example. All the other guys I was working with are Mexican. They could have the sun on their skin all day and not have any real issues.

[B]

We would melt.

[A]

I. I couldn't. Yeah. My skin just. I don't, I don't have the. I don't have the skin for that. So I, I'd have to really cover myself. I'd. I'd get made fun of. None.

[B]

I wore sweatshirts in the, in the desert all the time. People give me a hard time. I'd always wear Marine Corps.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

They tell us wear sweatshirts for a reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it helped keep us cool.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. No, I, Yeah, long sleeves.

[B]

Whatever, dude.

[A]

Long sleeve cotton shirt every day. So I think.

[B]

But it takes yet to have confidence.

[A]

It's not as simple. You want it to be that simple and someone in the office thinks it's that simple, but it's not that simple because you still have that.

[B]

It's unfortunate, specifically, and it's all industries have that mentality. But again, I think it's important. That's one of the reasons I think it's so important to teach the younger generation this is okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Whether it's about injuries, how to protect yourself, or even the mental side of it, like at a younger age, if you're learning from people that are outspoken or okay with vulnerability or okay with being honest ethically about legit how to manage yourself in the construction industry, I think if they had the right coach or right mentor that they get impacted by upfront. I think that I've seen more of the younger people confident enough to say, yeah, you can do that, but I'm going to do this.

[A]

Yeah. If you want to do that.

[B]

Like, because they don't care. They care about them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've used the former generation too, as sometimes a good example of what I don't want. Like when they are bent over getting out of a machine or when their skin looks like, I tell you to.

[B]

Leave, you want to see a difference. You go to meetings where you have people who have been around a long time, worked in the industry, and you watch them walk around, get up tables, whatever it may be. These younger individuals are like, yeah, I don't want to be like that.

[A]

I'm good. I've heard a lot of comments online though too, about, I was in construction. It's the hours or the beating their bodies up and they're like, I don't want to do it anymore. And they've gotten Out.

[B]

And I think unfortunately a lot of people that are getting in though, Aaron, are like we talked about earlier, in survival mode and need a job.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But they'll do anything it takes.

[A]

But then they get into it. But there's also a lot of jobs out there too now. So there's a lot of people bouncing out. And I think we have this recruiting problem and I think we need to be honest with ourselves and say, would I want my son or daughter to go work for the industry that's number one in suicide by profession or number one in overdose fatality by profession or is, does, does do any of these, do any of these numbers mean we're, we're healthy? And, and when I talked about, you.

[B]

Heard me earlier, I said it's so competitive. I didn't mean like competitive, like for people to find people. It's like, what I'm saying is the opposite is like if you're a good company and you take care of your people legit in leadership. And what I find is a lot of times executive leaders, CEOs, people who are in charge were actually ground people first.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you got that. They're the most successful companies out there.

[A]

They're cleaning house right now.

[B]

Yeah. And it's only going to widen locking to them to work for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're smart, they care about themselves.

[A]

They care about their people.

[B]

Like you were saying someone's parents 95% of the time, like. Yeah, what about this one? Yeah. You might make $5 less to start.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But look at what they're offering about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I really think that you're seeing a lot more of that.

[A]

You are. It's just there is still, I think there's a lot of people that are getting, I hate this term but gaslit by employers, I think. And then there's behind the curtains, a brand new car.

[B]

You open the door, it's a 96 Camry.

[A]

There's plenty of that. And then there's also people getting themselves into some financial holes.

[B]

Very easy to do now.

[A]

Bought the new bass boat or the new 250lariat or whatever it is. And I'm one of those assholes with an F250 lariat.

[B]

But I, I'm going backwards now, man. You know, it's funny like, you know, we talked about this when I met you the first. Like, I'm retiring this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Yeah. I, I, you know, just bought a Jeep gladiator because I need a car when I leave.

[A]

I can't stand those.

[B]

I Understand? I just, I bought it because it's $40,000. Doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles. I just needed a little bare bones kick around town because I don't plan on taking family vacations or that just enough to buy dard work.

[A]

I get it, I get it. I just, I have to go out of my way to talk about those though.

[B]

I get it was 40 grand.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I looked at the Chevy Colorado or Canyon, whatever it is. And the Ford range roll it.

[A]

70 grand or even Tacoma is real expensive.

[B]

Same stuff. Yeah, I'm looking financially, I'm trying to be more. Okay. Hey, do I need all that stuff?

[A]

I get it. You're listening to your Dave Ramsey.

[B]

I don't even listen but can't argue with it. It's a conservative side of me saying maybe my mom wasn't stupid.

[A]

Yeah, there's.

[B]

You know what I mean? Because she's really smart when it comes to money.

[A]

Well, the problem is like 22 year old kid has never.

[B]

Yeah. Oh wow. I'm making some money.

[A]

Let's go receive that education.

[B]

I only have rent. That's it. You know.

[A]

But there are a lot, there's more and more great companies out there that are attracting people that want to work for a great company. They want to make good money. But money's not the only thing that matters because it's not. And they are taking care of their people in a holistic sense.

[B]

I tell people, specifically younger individuals don't get caught up in the money up front because high dollar payout means high expectations. Meaning if you are making $95,000 right out of college a year, they're going to expect a lot out of you. Which means you might have a nice beautiful Ford Lariat at home, but you're never going to be driving it.

[A]

Yeah. Because the hours, because you're going to.

[B]

Be working 100 hour work weeks, they're going to suck you dry and you have no life.

[A]

But that's also okay in your twenties too. It is.

[B]

I just try to explain him. With high money comes high expectations. So be, don't, don't live in like fake world.

[A]

I'm very.

[B]

Reality is you're going to be working a lot, buddy.

[A]

Like yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's an opportunity to learn. It's great. There's not, I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with it. I just, just know it's not going to be easy.

[A]

But that's again, that's where I feel like that honest conversation needs to happen. Like Listen, the recruiter needs to tell.

[B]

You like, hey, we're gonna pay you 90 grand a year. That's great. But, and here's the expectation, 80 hours.

[A]

A week, but 80 hours. But you're also gonna, we're also gonna train you like nowhere else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're gonna go work on the coolest shit possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're gonna go see the world.

[B]

Like you sound like a Marine Corps recruiter right now to me, buddy.

[A]

I to go all the way, full circle. Yeah, they. My argument is they would be better off up front with that message. The construction industry would be better off acknowledging as a whole, hey, we've got some really fucked up problems we need to deal with. There's a. Something's wrong, something we're not healthy right now. Why aren't we healthy?

[B]

There's a lot. So I tell a lot of people that it's because there's a lot of moving around in the construction industry. People go work for other companies, whether it's manufacturers or in construction. I always try to explain them. I've been fortunate. I worked for a couple different companies. It's not always greener on the other side and that every company is going to have problems. You just got to pick which one's important to you. And like you were saying earlier, like my safety, legit safety, my wellbeing, time off every once in a while, living life a little bit should be one of the top things because I think now that I've lived through it and I'm grateful that, that I am here, I wish I could re. Go back and live my life a little bit more because all the things that I thought that if I would have done, but I continued to stay at work because I felt like they cared about me and they lived for me and all this stuff, they didn't. I gave away a lot of my life thinking I was more committed to the people I worked for than they were me by far. And I missed out on things that I could have enjoyed. So I try to explain that to people sometimes. Like if you feel like they're being honest to you and they're going to give you a little bit of life back as well. Working expectation is good, but three weeks off a year or they don't have a PTO policy. If you need to take a break, you take a break. But if you're working hard enough and you've earned your earned, earned it, you deserve it. Right? That kind of process, that's good. But two weeks a year, working 90 hour weeks and you're not going to use the two weeks because by that time they've got you drained so much, you're not going nowhere.

[A]

I do think though, this is where I think previous generations were more loyal to employers. And that's like the counsel my dad would always give me. You know, years of service was a really big deal. Now I don't think it's as big of a deal. I think, hey, I'm in my 20s, yeah. I'm just going to go flat out, dude, because I have the energy, I don't have anything else to worry about. I am going to send it. And I know because that's what I've done in my 20s. I'm like, I know I'm running at an unsustainable long term pace, but I don't need to worry about that right now. I'm in my 20s, I'm gonna go fucking flat out. I'm gonna redline this thing. When I have a family, I'm gonna want a different program.

[B]

Yeah, let's talk about that. I have a good this. Cause I talk about this a lot in my leadership workshop that I do because I looked at this a lot, right? So if you really like, listen holistically, look at the way the world is now compared to the 70s and 80s. 70s, 80s, the average was 40 hours a workweek, legit 40 hours. That means you got up early, went to work, came home, spent time with your family. A lot of families. It was one person worked, the other stayed home. And then in the 90s, it transitioned to 50, 60 hours a week and more parents started both working. And then now in the 2000s, 20s, right? The new level of standard is 60 plus hours a week. Because people work from home now or they work at the office, come home and work because you feel like that's the necessary way to maintain. Right? And then both parents are working, right? So you, you, you have now 160 hour work weeks for two people. That's the new standard, right? And anybody who's not being honest with themselves and realizing that is, is, is not facing reality. Yeah, Right. So people are working more and the standard is more now, right? Burnout's prevalent now. People aren't detaching and they're not being able to live their lives. You hear Jocko, you even hear Nick, you hear several individuals that I like their leadership style talk about detaching time to yourself because you're better detached, recharged. And a lot of these companies now are making that part of their competitive side is recognizing that People need that now. There's also some that just drive you into the ground. Butter up, you know, suck it up. Buttercup mentality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those people that. Those companies that I feel are helping provide, Providing the human side of being a leader type of resources are legit. I mean, you guys do a great job of that, I think, here, even at dirtworld or buildwit, but there's a lot of companies that don't.

[A]

But it's okay, too, though, to. Like I was telling you when we were getting coffee, it's like, I knew I was just a number. That's okay.

[B]

Yeah. But most people don't.

[A]

I was fine with that.

[B]

Yeah, I'm glad you did.

[A]

I'm gonna be a number. I'm gonna be a hell of a number, man. You're gonna pay me in return. It's a trade.

[B]

But then education and money. Yeah.

[A]

There comes a time where this doesn't serve me anymore. I'm gonna go somewhere else.

[B]

Time to move.

[A]

Yeah, that's okay. I think you can go work for somebody for 40 years. Can you do that? Absolutely. But that's been in the past, heralded as, like, success for the company to retain people for 40 years and for the individual to stay at a company for 40 years, can it still be? Yes, but I don't think that's the formula in a lot of ways. And I think in some ways it can do you a disservice because I think in your 20s, a certain kind of job can really suit you well, but just not suit you in other parts of your life. Now I have young kids. Okay. So then I'm gonna go work. Instead of a big traveling corporation, I'm gonna go work for a local contractor. Am I gonna be on the big new LNG plant? You know?

[B]

No, that happened to me.

[A]

I'm not going to be. But that's fine because I'll be able to see my daughters when I get home after work every day.

[B]

I mean, when I left Kiewit, my career path exploded amazingly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had. I had all the knowledge from every job, all the people I met. I mean, I talk about this a lot. I think, like, I try to be more present and think about my career path all the time. And I think about the thousands and hundreds of thousands of people that I've crossed paths with in my career. When I went to work in Boston, the culture I left to, the culture I went to was night and day. We didn't even wear glasses and hard hats. When I got to Suffolk, yeah, My jobs and shots. We went from boots on the land, gloves on the hand, to people not even having it on the job. So it was, it was crazy for me. So my career path exploded. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it also allowed me to be a dad. So again, you know, I try to explain to people when you get into the industry at a younger age, I think it's important to be educated of what's important, what's not important. I think you did a great job of understanding that up front of knowing that you were a number. And it's. Listen, I think parts of every company probably has people who care about people in them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in all reality is most huge companies were spoken to will.

[A]

But that, that's okay too.

[B]

And it's okay. Like again, know that I don't, don't take it personal.

[A]

I didn't need to go to these big. I don't need to be family with everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just here to do my fucking job. Okay. I'm just, I want to enjoy the.

[B]

People I work with and that's how most trade professionals.

[A]

But I just want to. I just want to build stuff.

[B]

I don't want to be. I don't need 500,000 likes nowadays.

[A]

Right. Like, yeah.

[B]

I just want to come to work and go home.

[A]

And so I like person. I don't. I think all these companies, they think they like, these people want this kind of culture. It's like, no, no, no. Honestly, I was fine being a cog in the machine, man. Yeah, it was great.

[B]

I learned most people, that's all they want.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

They just want a simplified life. I go to work, it's an even trade. You pay me and you tell me what my expectations. Your expectations of me are, and I'll meet them. Some go above and beyond, which is good. That's called leadership. But then there's some that just want to go to work and make a living, man.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Go home and live their life.

[A]

And I think that's where there's this. Just a lot of nonsensical talk in infrastructure in general too. It's just like, listen, at the end of the day, it's still just building shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We're trying to make it into something it's not. At the end of the day, it's just building shit. Is it going to take hard work? It's always going to take hard work. Is it always going to. Is it going to be shitty? A lot of times it's always going to be shitty. A lot of times like that's just part of it. You need a certain kind of person willing to do that. We need these people that will keep America running. And we're so disconnected from what it takes to keep America running. We think it should be something else. It's like, no, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't need to work.

[B]

I always tell people, trade professionals are very versatile human beings. They can adapt to any. Just like the Marines.

[A]

They're incredible.

[B]

They can adapt to any scenario they're in. Most often, they can achieve and excel and be successful if they have the right tools, right setup, right plan. And that's all they want. They don't want all the other clutter. And I try to explain to people, specifically young people, you 95% create more clutter for yourself than anything. You gotta be confident, know what your plan is. It's okay to change your plan. But like, in your case, I try to explain to them, like, learn as much as you can in every opportunity. And I was lucky that I learned from Jimmy Clayburn. He's like, listen, there's a difference in safety professionals. You can be an engineer, safety engineer, or you can be a safety professional. I was like, okay, what's the difference? Because safety engineers, all black and white safety professionals out in the field, in the trenches.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And when he doesn't know something or that person doesn't know something, they educate themselves.

[A]

Construction is gray.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

It's not black and white.

[B]

It's not black and white.

[A]

It will never be black and white.

[B]

There was so there's so much gray that they pay someone like me to manage the gray. That's what a safety professional does because it's financial. I explained to people all the time that in my career at Canastro, we went from paying out 1.5 million a year in working at comp to 55,000 after the fifth year. $55,000 payout. 50 year. I was there from 1.5 million.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't think my job's about money?

[A]

Yeah, but. But it's in everybody's best interest. Because if, hey, if we're paying out less, that means our people are not getting injured first and foremost, so they're able to care for their families. 2. Now we have more money to invest across the board, make the business better grow. And I know a lot of you people are jaded because you've been taken advantage of by employers left and right. But ideally, in a situation like that, that's not how it is. This is money that we don't have to spend over here that we can now put over here to better care for everybody.

[B]

Exactly what I specifically been like. The younger crowd coming up been trying to educate them on that side because then they understand the importance of them being confident and making smart decisions when they're in the work environment are. It's not just about them and not just about the company. It's a partnership. Like if they don't get hurt because they're smart enough to say, hey, this ain't safe. That could change the projectile of this organization having worked for them for 10 years because a few bad incidents could keep that company from being hired for a long time. A long time. Yeah.

[A]

I mean that goes on your report card.

[B]

You're going to explain that importance of every incident to these individuals. And if they want a good paying job that's a safe place that gives them the right stuff to work, they're going to be smart enough saying, hey, Mr. Foreman, I know you're having a rough time right now and you're stressed because I understand that you're running the job and your manager in the GC and you're going through divorce, whatever it might be, because they're human beings. That's the human side of leadership. It's good to remind them like, yeah, hey man, this ain't safe, kid. You're right. Or they might yell at them, but they know. Right. And then that kid can say, hey, I'm not doing this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, worst case scenario. Like I think you can approach it in a constructive way.

[B]

Hey, importance.

[A]

I just, yeah, I, I don't want to get injured here. You don't want me to get injured?

[B]

You don't want me to. That's the. I tell them you don't want to get hurt.

[A]

Yeah. And so, hey, this doesn't look right.

[B]

It's gonna be worse for you than it is me.

[A]

And do you mind double checking this before we do this?

[B]

Yeah, that's so important.

[A]

You don't, you don't have to be like, no, I'm not doing it because I have stop work authority. And I just saw like that's going to go.

[B]

Don't even say that word.

[A]

Yeah, don't say that.

[B]

I don't want to get hurt for me, but I also for you because it's going to hurt you too.

[A]

It's all in trouble. We're in this together, man.

[B]

So that's a good culture, man.

[A]

And then if you're still told to kick, go kick rocks, go to another company and they will there's enough great companies out there. Go find that great company.

[B]

That's what I love about this new generation coming up. They're not afraid. Most of them are afraid to stick up for themselves.

[A]

Yeah. Which is a double edged sword.

[B]

It is. But from a safety side, I'd rather them say something than not sure. Because back in my day, you almost had to fight your way out of a bad situation.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you were able to come down and do this.

[B]

I'm glad to be here. It was awesome.

[A]

It's just, it's nice to have a realistic conversation about safety. These conversations, I have them all the time in private settings. And then you see the corporate documents and you're like, wait a minute, what happened? How many lawyers did you have write this one?

[B]

And I get it, man. So listen, I get it.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

We talk all the time about even the helmets. I see both sides of it. And I understand if you're on a corporate side and you're the person paying out the $80 million lawsuit because unfortunately the person fell and has a TBI and they're never going to work again or be in a wheelchair. So they're paying $80 million. The insurance company wish they would have died because it would have been cheaper. Sure.

[A]

And Most of the 80 million is not going to the injured party.

[B]

No. It's 40% going to a scumbag attorney that doesn't even know the last name, at least. I get it, man. It sucks. And that's why I live in the world of authenticity and try to be you. Be honest. But the most important part to me in culturally and whether it's safety or even a company program is just do the right thing. And that's what's led to my success. I mean, if you call my career success and safety, 30 years never had a person die on my jobs, which that's how I know that I did. Okay. And I've only terminated two people my entire career. And I've had hundreds of thousands of people work for me. I believe in having a conversation, retraining, understanding. Because I could just like Hewitt, I could have sent everybody home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I didn't. I had conversations because there's humans. Right. But if you do that, I think it's important because whether you're in safety or even construction, you gotta always remember, like, we're human beings, we're not perfect. There's nobody perfect in this world. And 95% of the time it's something's going on with them or maybe we didn't do the right. Like that's the biggest lesson learned I learned from Kiwit was every injury was preventable. Was the mindset. Right. But they'd always bring it up like what did you not do? And I always took it defensively. But most time what you'd find out is probably could have trained this person a little better or I could have said something a little different.

[A]

I read a book and it was saying it was remarkable how often the problem was me.

[B]

And it's like Jocko talks about it a lot. I mean we talked about Jocko a lot. Even Nick talks about a lot the importance of self evaluation because we're human beings. I'll never forget the first muster I ever went to with Jocko Willinkin. It was 2018. And that was the lesson I took from that was am I really the stuff I'm saying to people, are they hearing how I mean it? Are they hearing it how they perceive it? And it wasn't. I was beating myself up. It was understanding that everyone hears things differently. Everyone like you may call a Lebera 2250 a 2250. And somebody else might call it just 2250. We all have different lingo, we all have different understanding. Understanding that is important because it really helped me redefine how I communicated with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the important side of safety that I try to explain to people is we talked about OSHA 10 in 30 hour. Like how ineffective it is. Most of the time it's because person giving. It's not really saying giving effective information, whether it's real life incidents or explain it to the person on their terms. And that's back to younger people, even people in the industry. People want to learn on their terms. It can't be on your terms. If you're going to lead people, you got to make sure they take the information and it can wear you out. Don't get me wrong. You have to communicate with them on their terms if you want them to learn. The end result is all that should matter to you. And that's no death. That's all I ever cared about. And so even when I went to Canstrell, I was like 55 to 40. People like stuff on paper. The 40 to 30 people want you to text them. The 30 to 25 year olds wants you to email. So you have to figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's important.

[A]

Yep. Well, thanks for coming.

[B]

Yeah, man. I could talk to you all day, man.

[A]

Yeah, it's the way it goes. This topic. I like talking about, too. But we will see you next week in Texas.

[B]

Yeah. I'm grateful for what you're doing, for leadership in the industry and.

[A]

Yeah, likewise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Thanks for coming.

[B]

Thanks for having me.