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- [00:00]
A
As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor. And at this point we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest workwear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, ariat.com dirtttalk that is ariat.com dirttalk.
- [00:54]
B
We had a solar project in Texas and it was one of our. I guess we have one in Arizona. But like, when you start getting solar sites that are like 2,500 plus acres.
- [01:04]
A
Yeah.
- [01:05]
B
You can't even like fathom how big that is. Like, you would be, like, you would be, you'd be out on the site and they'd be like, is that the end of the site over there? Like, no, like, that's the end of this section. The end of the site's 3/4amile past that.
- [01:18]
A
Yeah.
- [01:19]
B
And it's like, you know, most in most parts of the country, a big project is, you know, few hundred acres and.
- [01:28]
A
Well, that's the irony of the solar, though, is like how much land it takes. And you're scraping the land, scraping it all clean and you're putting solar panels on it and you can't have anything growing on that land ever because you don't want anything obstructing the panels. And it's. I mean, I'm fine with it. I, I just think it's super. It's like the environmentalists are super cool with that. Disrupting the environment. Hugely disruptive to that part of the area. Massive, thousands and thousands of acres and per farm. But then mining, you can't disrupt it. And it's like, I'm of the opinion, listen, if it's in the middle of the desert, no one's there, then it furthers humanity. I'm all for disrupting a part of the desert for the sake of humanity. I'm on board with that. I think that's a fair trade.
- [02:22]
B
But it's a good call out. I think in the solar industry, they're trying to figure out the balance there. And we did have solar projects that got delayed because of a tortoise or whatever in the desert. So it happens. But generally there's probably less negative opinion towards a solar project because it's seen as green when I. But, but the, the Irony is the only reason that you have it is because of the silica and all of that. All of the stuff that's mined. So.
- [02:52]
A
And all solar panels are made in China.
- [02:54]
B
Yeah.
- [02:55]
A
So on and so forth.
- [02:56]
B
Yeah.
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A
But my, one of my, my, my first like big assignment when I was working for a contractor in Phoenix.
- [03:05]
B
Yeah.
- [03:05]
A
I'll leave names out of it.
- [03:06]
B
Yeah.
- [03:06]
A
But they, they, they needed to do. It was like a mandatory pre bid meeting for a solar farm outside on your way to Utah. So if you drive out of Vegas on your way to Utah, it's on like the left side. It's massive. It was like 200 megawatt, 300 megawatt, big, big solar farm. And they had a mandatory pre bid. No one could go. And I was in like, I was like overhearing the conversation or something like that. And I was like, well, I can go. Like, I can go. Because I just saw it as like, well, they're going to pay me to drive up there. They're going to pay me to be there. They're going to pay me to drive home. Like, that's a lot of money. That's a lot.
- [03:46]
B
That's over time.
- [03:47]
A
So I think I talked him into it or whatever it was. They gave me a company car, they gave me a company gas card. And I was like, you know, this is like my second year in college. I'd never had a company car or anything like that. I thought I was.
- [03:59]
B
You just made it the coolest cat.
- [04:01]
A
And I stayed at some like really low key hotel. I couldn't stay on the strip, obviously, but I went to the Bellagio. I needed to see the fountains. First time in Vegas. And I drive out there and you can't. Like it's right along the interstate, but you can't get there from the interstate. You had to go this ax. I don't know if you guys had involvement in this project or not, but you had to go this access route and it was a strict 10 mile per hour speed limit and it must have been like 10 miles of road. So it took you an hour of crawling along 10 miles per hour because of the tortoises. And then you got there and you had to go through tortoise training. Like you didn't go through safety training. You went through tortoise training to be on site. And they had the tortoise fences and it was like if, if someone ran over one damn tortoise, the whole project shut down. So 10 miles per hour, you could not exceed that because if you hit a tortoise everything stops. But then you go out to the site. 631 is just blowing and going and just moving dirt everywhere.
- [04:59]
B
Yeah. Well, it's because they had to clear the site of all the tortoises.
- [05:03]
A
Yeah.
- [05:03]
B
The biologists go out there, they install the tortoise fence. They find the tortoises install a fence so they can't get back into the site.
- [05:11]
A
Yeah, it's like. It's like. Yeah, it's like, you know, like 2, 3ft high. So the tortoises, they obviously can't get over it.
- [05:18]
B
I think, if I remember, I think it goes into the ground, too, because tortoises dig.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah. They burrow.
- [05:22]
B
Yeah.
- [05:22]
A
Well, that's one. Like, I. I don't know if you know people in Phoenix with tortoise, tortoises and pets, but that's the problem is.
- [05:29]
B
They don't realize, like, they'll burrow.
- [05:31]
A
They'll burrow under fences.
- [05:33]
B
Well, I've had friends who. Who get one, and they're like. They think it's like the coolest thing. And then a few years later, they install artificial turf. And the next thing you know, they have, like, a tourist burrowing under our turf.
- [05:44]
A
It's like sinking in places. Yeah, well, and they get giant, too. Yeah.
- [05:49]
B
We have a friend who has one. They're not close friends, but they have one. And, like, it just disappears in the winter.
- [05:55]
A
Right.
- [05:55]
B
Because it burrows.
- [05:56]
A
Yeah.
- [05:56]
B
It goes into underground, but it's like. It's like this big, you know, like, it's. It's, you know, probably £30 or something. Like, it's big.
- [06:05]
A
Yeah.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah.
- [06:06]
A
You can't hit the tortoises.
- [06:08]
B
The thing that's crazy, though, is about just like the. The sites being that big, which. Alternative energy is one of the few places I've seen sites be that big. Like, we did large data centers and stuff. I guess mines are that way.
- [06:20]
A
Mines are that way.
- [06:21]
B
But, like, wind. Like, we did a project in Texas on wind, and I. I can't. I can't remember exactly the. The number, but it was like 88 miles of road or something.
- [06:31]
A
Yeah. Yeah. We're going back out to the big project for Pattern in New Mexico next month.
- [06:37]
B
That job is crazy.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah.
- [06:38]
B
And that job has been around for a decade at least. Like, we were chasing it. I've been gone. Well, I sold Blunt almost over four years ago, and we were chasing that for at least five or six years there.
- [06:53]
A
Well. And I think most of that power is ending up in Phoenix.
- [06:55]
B
Yeah. The transmission is Sun Zia, which runs from there Into Phoenix. So I don't necessarily know that it's like, going to be used in Phoenix, but it runs through Phoenix.
- [07:06]
A
I think a vast majority is going.
- [07:07]
B
To be used in Phoenix.
- [07:08]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Is used in Phoenix. Is that, I think, like the main customer base, if I'm not mistaken.
- [07:13]
B
I don't know.
- [07:14]
A
But we're going out there to see a turbine be assembled that's cool. Which. Super cool. Very excited about that.
- [07:21]
B
Yeah.
- [07:22]
A
And then we're gonna go see the transmission line work with Quanta.
- [07:26]
B
Do you know what size turbines those are?
- [07:28]
A
I don't know.
- [07:29]
B
They're probably over 3 megawatts, but it'd be interesting.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah. But it's. There's almost a thousand of them.
- [07:35]
B
Yeah. Putting the blades, like getting the turbine up there is wild, but then putting the blades on is crazy.
- [07:43]
A
Well, just how fast they do it and how big the blades are, it is so crazy. Just the logistics behind getting those blades from where they're manufactured overseas into typically, I think they come into Houston, and then they have to drive them all the way across the country to middle of nowhere, New Mexico. And then they have to get them from the road to the wind turbine, which is out in the middle of nowhere. Just the whole thing.
- [08:09]
B
Yeah. Like every. So every turbine project, like, one of the things that you do is you do turning radiuses. So, like, everywhere they're getting off the road, you have to install turning radiuses for those blades.
- [08:24]
A
Yeah.
- [08:25]
B
And it's funny because, like, they have to be aggregate based roads because you can't, you know, they have to be at bearing capacity of those trucks. You'd be shocked how much ab goes down on these temporary turning radiuses just to get those turbines in.
- [08:40]
A
Well, they've built. I know in some areas because it's really hilly. Like, the radiuses are pretty enormous because the trailers are so big. But they've built the trailers that will raise the blade mounts to the trailer. Yeah. And then the trailer can lift the blade up and get around these radiuses that are a lot taller or a lot tighter because it just lifts the.
- [09:04]
B
Yeah. I've never had that on a project, But I've seen videos and it looks wild.
- [09:08]
A
I've only seen videos of it. I feel like it's a European thing.
- [09:11]
B
It probably is. But I imagine in like, near Palm Springs, north of Palm Springs, there's some turbines there in the mountains that I wouldn't be surprised if they had to use something like that because it's pretty hilly terrain and pretty wild.
- [09:29]
A
I feel like that's One of the oldest wind farms in America, Palm Springs, probably, that's been there since I can remember. Decades.
- [09:36]
B
Place I'm thinking of, I think it was called Tehachapi, but I can't remember. It's north of it, and it, like, there's just like, you're driving into this. These mountain range and you're like, how in the world do they get turbines and blades up here?
- [09:51]
A
I also, I mean, I think that too with transmission lines. I'll look at transmission lines. I'm like, how did they get that there? How did they build that? How did they. How do they string the wires? The whole. Just logistically, it's crazy work.
- [10:06]
B
So the helicopter company that I'm a partial owner in, so we do that well, we have a contract with one of the utility providers, and we inspect lines. And then at times we also. When they're installing new transmission, we don't do it as much. Like, there's companies who are set up only to pull wire. We just do it every once in a while. It's so wild.
- [10:28]
A
What size helicopter do they use?
- [10:29]
B
So they actually use a small helicopter. So, like, the MD 500 is the, like, most common helicopter that they do it with. And the part of the reason is they have what they call a side pull setup. So that has the setup so you can pull from the side of the helicopter. And so, like, the pilot can sit and he can look out his window as he pulls from the side. And so what they do is they pull basically like a. Almost like a mule tape. So like, like electrical, and they. They pull it through and they trip each one of the rollers within the tower. And I don't know all the, like, technical terms, but so they pull those, and then once they pull them, then that goes down, and then they can use that to actually pull the wire.
- [11:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [11:13]
B
So they're not. They're not actually flying the wire because it would weigh way too much for a helicopter.
- [11:18]
A
Okay, that makes sense because I've seen the giant, like, they'll use these machines that'll sit down on the ground and that'll pull the wire through because it has a lot more force. Giant spool, essentially.
- [11:28]
B
Yeah, that. And just like, if you think about, you know, those towers are far apart. That wire is thick, like an MD 500. I mean, it probably can only lift. I would be shocked if it could lift over a thousand pounds. I'm pretty sure it can't.
- [11:41]
A
That makes sense.
- [11:42]
B
So that's how they do it.
- [11:43]
A
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
- [11:44]
B
And that's that's a, that's a just a wild industry.
- [11:47]
A
Well, those pilots and just that skill set.
- [11:50]
B
Yeah, it's.
- [11:51]
A
It is nuts what those guys do and how they'll just fly right up to the wires for the sake of inspection and just how, how comfortable they are with flying around. Like, that's like one of the golden rules of aviation. Don't go around, especially helicopter. Don't go around power lines. And they're just right up against the damn towers power lines with the guys hanging off the side touching the damn power lines. It's just the whole thing. And then I've been watching every video I can find with the buyers right now. Those helicopter pilots and those aircraft pilots just.
- [12:29]
B
Yeah.
- [12:29]
A
I can't get enough of those videos, what they do.
- [12:32]
B
So, like, I've told my partner, I'm like, we won't do fire.
- [12:36]
A
No, no.
- [12:37]
B
I have nothing but respect for those people. It is so high risk. Not just because, you know, you're flying low to the ground with, you know, in many cases a suspended load of water that can move like that. Like, they call it long lining. Like, just the idea of having a line below the helicopter introduces a whole new level of complexity. But the weather that is associated with a fire.
- [13:10]
A
Yeah.
- [13:11]
B
Like, is wild.
- [13:13]
A
Well, the winds have been so bad, they've. But they've been grounded for a lot of it.
- [13:16]
B
Yeah.
- [13:17]
A
You just can't even fly.
- [13:19]
B
But like, you think about like the thermals that are created just from heat.
- [13:23]
A
Yeah. When. Yeah.
- [13:24]
B
When it's the middle of the summer.
- [13:25]
A
Yeah.
- [13:26]
B
Like imagine the thermals that are created when you're flying over a fire. And then like, it's, it's just wild. Like nothing but respect for them.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah.
- [13:34]
B
So cool. It looks like they're having fun.
- [13:37]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [13:38]
B
I know that may not be the case, but the, like, the, the way that they come in and dump the water, you're just like, that looks so cool.
- [13:44]
A
Well, I was. You can actually, you can listen to the, like, some of the communication channels from Cal. Fire. Yeah. And I was streaming it the other day and it's. What's so impressive is just how matter of fact, cool, calm, and collected these guys are. So I was listening to some of the helicopters talk back and forth with the, like, I don't know. I don't know the terminology. I'm not a fucking pilot. But just how, like the stuff they're talking about, it's just like these guys are in it right now. They're. They're working the fire, they're Doing what they're doing, but it's just another day at the office. As cool as cucumbers. These guys, the whole thing is so impressive.
- [14:22]
B
I think you have to. It's like when we talk to like Rich Devini or Jocko or his team or Nick Lavery, like they're talking about Special Forces and like, I think it's just if you don't stay calm and collected in those high stress environments, I don't think you're around to tell the stories.
- [14:39]
A
No.
- [14:40]
B
So I think you just kind of have to.
- [14:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of Saudi Arabia, I ran into a guy at the airport not too long ago. He works as a heavy lift helicopter pilot out in Saudi Arabia. He lives in the States. He goes out there for 30 days at a time. 30 days on, 30 days off. He's probably making, I don't even.
- [14:59]
B
A lot.
- [15:01]
A
Ridiculous amount of money. Yeah.
- [15:03]
B
I mean, a Skytrain, our sky crane pilot is getting paid pretty well. And then if you're going to Saudi Arabia to do it, I imagine quite well.
- [15:15]
A
Yeah. What are you seeing in the marketplace these days? Because you talk to as many contractors as I do.
- [15:27]
B
Yeah, I mean, maybe not quite as many. I'm definitely not in Australia.
- [15:31]
A
Yeah.
- [15:34]
B
You know, it's interesting. I think, I think there was a lot of worry about, hey, what's going to happen with the election. With the election. Yeah. I feel like now that the election has passed and I don't know that would have necessarily mattered a whole lot who got elected. I think just that, like, we don't know, worried everybody. I think for the most part, people feel like the next two years are going to be pretty good. I think most of the economic reports we're reading, we try to stay up on that here at Build Web. Most say the next two years, things look pretty good. Federal spending will continue. I think there is a bit of hesitation on many people's part of what does it look like after two years? We know we have a spending problem and we also always talk about, well, the infrastructure needs to be an investment. But our spending problem is so bad that I think enough people know that that they realize if this whole Doge whatever department actually does what it says it's going to do and cuts 800 billion to a trillion dollars out of the federal budget, it could impact, well, I think dollars in the future.
- [17:00]
A
But it's like in a way, it's kind of like, I don't know, this sounds good, but it's like the industry is kind of a junkie right now. In a way, with all the federal spending.
- [17:10]
B
Well, federal spending and the chips, which is obviously made by federal.
- [17:15]
A
Yeah, chip chips. Inflation reduction infrastructure. You can't just spend multiple trillions of dollars in a few year period without some adverse side effects. Like, I just don't. Like, we just published a video with landmark Scout Motors.
- [17:35]
B
20 million yards.
- [17:36]
A
20 million yard project is awesome. But it's like at the same time you're kidding yourself if you're like, well, yeah, this is just. We're just gonna keep doing more of this. Like, this is now the new norm. Like, yep, this is very sustainable. There's nothing sustainable about it.
- [17:50]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I, I thought about that a lot because I agree. I mean, that was honestly one of the catalysts for why I sold was I was like, you know, we're on a caffeine high. We have been in a pretty good economy since 2008, like if you think about it. So we're coming up on 20 years of mostly growing when it comes to construction markets. There's been some dips in different sectors, but overall, 20 years of growth and prosperity. Close. I mean, we're over 15 years right now. So that was one of the reasons I was like, man, what's the chances that this keeps going? But then at the same time, when we read, I think you and me, maybe, I can't remember if Dan read it, but you and I both read that the end is just the beginning. And it talks about how manufacturing is going to return to the US and how the Chinese population is going to shrink significantly. I'm starting to hear about stuff like that now in media, people talking about that. And so you wonder, can this be the new norm? My gut says no. But then you start seeing lots of companies bringing back manufacturing and you're like, maybe that could offset some of the government spending. Like, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
- [19:11]
A
Yeah, I'm very curious, especially with the new administration coming in very pro America, Made in America. But at the same time, I also know too much about how materials works and how commodities work and how reliant we are on Southeast Asia and Asia in general, just from even a commodity standpoint, to know that, like, even if we wanted to go make everything in America tomorrow, we have to build a hole. It's just not feasible in like, yeah, we have multiple decades.
- [19:46]
B
We have the natural resources to do it. We have, yes, but we could never permit quick enough.
- [19:50]
A
Yeah, it's. I just read this book. You would really enjoy it. It's it's incredible because it talks about how these few economies in the world, like a very small percentage, like 10% of the world, is living this extraordinarily lavish life, America included. We're consuming so far beyond per person what somebody is in Indonesia, just way beyond it. And we, because we've been so far ahead of the rest of the world, we've been able to use everybody else's resources. And so we're fooled into thinking, well, America, you know, we don't. We don't do mining here, we don't do manufacturing here. We don't. We. We have clean air, clean water. We're just a great, great place. Forests are growing like crazy. This is just awesome. While pillaging everybody else's resources, while consumption is only increasing. So we're not, we're not consuming any less. We're just consuming more and more and more. We're consuming it from other places. But now you have China, that has grown astronomically over the past few decades.
- [21:01]
B
It's middle class.
- [21:02]
A
It's middle class. India is becoming middle class. Indonesia is becoming middle class. The Middle east is growing. Africa's growing, South America is growing. So now you have billions of people starting to consume more and these other massive economies saying, wait a minute, we don't want to give you our resources, or wait a minute, those resources over there, we want that too, because we need that. We need to import that oil, we need that gas, we need that copper, whatever it is. And so he was basically saying because of the. It's similar to Peter Zion's book. It's in a sense that, like, we've been fooled into thinking that this is just the continuous state of affairs, like what's happened over the past few decades. We've just been fooled into thinking that's reality. But because of how populations have grown, global economies have changed. This is not the state of affairs going forward just because it physically can't be. It's not mathematically feasible to just indefinitely do what we're doing, which is terrifying, but also, like you were saying, I think very exciting because that means cool. I think we're going to have to make more here. I think we're going to have to develop our resources further. I think we're going to have to change the way we import export. Like, I think all of those things need to be questioned. Big picture.
- [22:22]
B
I think they will, especially with the population shifts. It almost requires it to happen. The thing that was crazy is I think it was Apple and maybe Elon Musk they were talking About China has this reputation of being the low cost manufacturer. But according to Apple was talking about they don't manufacture in China because it is the lowest cost manufacturer. There's plenty of places in the world that could produce less. They said China has just invested in manufacturing for the last three decades and they're actually quite good at it. And they were talking about what do they use the term? It was like mechanical engineers. But I don't think it was mechanical tooling engineers. That's what the term was. They said like tooling engineers in China you could fill football stadiums with them. And in the US it's like handfuls of tooling engineers.
- [23:20]
A
Yeah.
- [23:21]
B
I even was thinking for my son, like, oh, hey, you have an engineering mind. Tooling engineering could be a cool thing to look into because robotics and how we manufacture is going to look. Continue to look different. And we don't have a lot of those people here in the US who have that deep, extensive knowledge.
- [23:41]
A
No. I think, which is why our economy's grown substantially because we've become a knowledge economy and we've built Apples and Googles and Facebooks, Nvidia's, et cetera. But it also makes us very dependent upon the rest of the world, which is fine if the rest of the world continues doing what it's doing. But the I think that's one of the biggest pieces of propaganda out there is Chinese manufacturing sucks. I've been to China. I want to go back so bad. I'm trying to figure out a way to go back right now. I'm working on it. I think I'll be able to get back in. It's not as simple as just going to China, unfortunately, but it's a spectacular place. Everything about it is incredible. Yeah, everything about it is incredible. And I feel like Americans are. They've bought into this narrative that is like, oh, it's all second rate and it sucks. It's like I didn't see a lot that sucked.
- [24:39]
B
Well, it's an interesting way to think. This is what I think is really great about traveling, is traveling, I feel like, has just a tendency to help you recognize there's just more to the story. Right. Like there's truths in what we hear. But there's also more to this story. But like you look at the big OEMs, almost every one of them has at least one product line that's manufactured in China.
- [25:06]
A
Well, but even Caterpillar making their dozers in Peoria, they're not manufacturing the dozers, they're assembling dozers. Of components almost entirely from China.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah. Or Mexico.
- [25:16]
A
Or Mexico.
- [25:17]
B
Right?
- [25:17]
A
Yeah. Like Brazil.
- [25:18]
B
A lot of motors come from through Mexico or Brazil. Yeah, same thing. Like I went to the Peter Lee factory for haul trucks in England and it's like, so those, those are being manufactured in England, but parts are coming from Asia, Germany, that kind of stuff. So it's very, it's a very much a global manufacturing process. And like that book, I think it was that book, the Peter Zion book, like talks about jeans. Is it his book?
- [25:48]
A
I think so. And he just talks how many places it comes from? Yeah, yeah.
- [25:51]
B
Like the buttons come from one part of the world. Like pretty much everyone's buttons and rivets come from like one part of the world. And then the dyes for the jeans come from another part of the world and then the cottons could come from a few different places. But like, so even if you are a manufacturer of genes in America, there's a good chance that those genes weren't sourced in America.
- [26:13]
A
Yeah.
- [26:13]
B
So it's wild. But, but that's like, that's how the middle class has grown everywhere. So I think like for me, you know, I, I took some international business classes and I kind of came to appreciate like, you know, global globalism is like something that people really give a bad name. Like, oh, hey, we sent manufacturing overseas and all it did is hurt the middle class. But in many places it made the middle class more affordable in America and it grew a middle class somewhere else. Most studies show it lifts people out of poverty, but there's also consequences. Like shipping is a huge polluter.
- [26:59]
A
Uh huh.
- [27:00]
B
Like huge polluter. Those massive tankers pollute like crazy.
- [27:06]
A
Yeah, well that, I think that's what this, this guy's like ultimate question was. It's like, is consuming the way we're consuming with billions and billions and billions of more people starting to consume a lot more sustainable? Like, can we mathematically support 10 billion people consuming like this? Like at what point is it, does material science just keep, keep growing and growing, growing? Does recycling keep better? Like do we out, you know, do we, do we technology our way out of this until the global population levels off and starts to decline? Or is it like, does it mathematically become a challenge at some point? And there's so many different opinions on it and so many. One expert's over here, the other expert's over here. Like population increasing is the worst thing that can happen to the earth. The other side's like, no, we can just keep, we can keep going for oil for hundreds of years. There's, there's just, there's, there's endless supplies of this stuff. And it's an interesting question. It's like, is this possible? Like, huh. It is. It is interesting because you've seen it like with Brazil, just consumption in Brazil per person. There's so many people, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people in this country. It's a giant place. But the consumption per person is just a small fraction of what you and I consume on an annual basis.
- [28:30]
B
Yeah. Like living there, you, you know, it's been almost two decades now.
- [28:35]
A
Yeah.
- [28:36]
B
That's wild. It's been that long since I lived there. It was probably 18 years ago or so. It was, it was crazy because you could be in, you know, in one of the barrios of Rio, like Botofogo or Copacabana or Ipanema, like world class destinations, you know, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Everything that you would see in any, you know, destination for the wealthy. And then within like just one or two barrios over, you're in the, you know, the, the most impoverished favelas in the world.
- [29:18]
A
Yeah.
- [29:18]
B
Where like consumption is a fraction because they're eating beans and rice and everybody wears Havana flip flops because they can't afford shoes and they wear them until they're actually wore out. Like, not like we don't know what a pair of wore out shoes looks like.
- [29:37]
A
No.
- [29:38]
B
In America.
- [29:38]
A
Or what starving is. Yeah. Even close. Close.
- [29:43]
B
Yeah. Like clothes, like they literally wear their clothes out.
- [29:47]
A
Yeah. Like holes in them that are already third hand. Fourth hand. I'm sure.
- [29:52]
B
Yeah. And obviously we're speaking about the impoverished there versus the impoverished here and, and they have wealth and it's definitely different. But that's actually one thing that just like gets me a little bit kind of like a little irritated is we just waste and it's, and it's, it's just part of our lives. So I have these pair of leather shoes. They're a pair of leather dress shoes. I bought them like 15 years ago. Love them. I love them to death still. Leather's in good shape, but like, I can't really resole them.
- [30:29]
A
Yeah.
- [30:29]
B
Like that used to be a thing. Like resole it and you can wear. Will cost me more to resole the shoe than it will to buy new.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah.
- [30:40]
B
And that like kind of just bugs me a little bit. Like we're like washing machines, washers and dryers. This is something that just pisses me off because they're so expensive.
- [30:49]
A
Yeah.
- [30:50]
B
And fixing them is like half the Cost like anytime somebody comes out to work on my washer or dryer and like that's going to be a few hundred dollars. I could go buy a new one for a few hundred dollars more. And it just feels wrong.
- [31:03]
A
And it's like it's sometimes like the computer system. It's not even the, it's not the steel or anything.
- [31:09]
B
No. It's almost always like a solenoid or a circuit board or something that's like some plastic component somewhere that probably could have been made out of metal for a fraction of the cost. More.
- [31:22]
A
Yeah.
- [31:23]
B
And so like it just feels like we, we have built an economic model around consumption and it worked its way.
- [31:33]
A
Into everything like well, and just non stop. It's all growth. Like we were even talking about public companies last night. Yeah, it's growth, grow, grow more, more, more every quarter. It needs to be more Caterpillar, more tractors. How many more tractors? Cool. Now that's the standard for next quarter. Now you have to sell more tractors than the more tractors and then next year you better sell more, more, more tractors. It's just. And if you don't, we're going to come for your job, we're going to short your stock, we're going to end your career and we're going to find the next guy that then sells more tractors. Then you have every company, every public company, which is all the big ones essentially on that model of just perpetual.
- [32:19]
B
More, which you get because you want people to grow. You want people to grow requires organizations to grow. So I get it. But at the same time it's like we had this revolution once in a generation pandemic that the only reason we made it out of it was a hopefully once in a generation spending spree.
- [32:42]
A
Yep.
- [32:42]
B
And like global spending. Why should we hold people accountable to that once in a lifetime event? So back to this though. This was wild. Okay, so I'm reading about the Toyota Land Cruiser.
- [32:55]
A
Okay.
- [32:56]
B
Have you seen this Toyota Land Cruiser in Japan? It's like the Toyota Land Cruiser 70.
- [33:00]
A
Yeah, 70 series.
- [33:02]
B
And like they're sold in Australia.
- [33:03]
A
I drool over them.
- [33:05]
B
So they have a new one that they just came out with in Japan. It's like got the old like locks that you have to pull open and.
- [33:10]
A
Shut wind up windows.
- [33:13]
B
The dash is completely like analog, like all the switches you have to turn, no digital dashboard. The seats are like just very basic cloth.
- [33:25]
A
It looks like diesel engine.
- [33:27]
B
Diesel engine. A 4 liter diesel engine. It looks like basically one other 90s, but it's brand new.
- [33:33]
A
Yep.
- [33:35]
B
Like probably Extremely easy to work on because it is based off of, you know, low technology. And so like most people could probably work on it themselves. The starting price in Japan, they're not going to make a lot.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah.
- [33:49]
B
The starting price in Japan they estimate is going to be in the $30,000 range versus from what I understand, the Land Cruiser is like closer to the $60,000 range.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah.
- [33:59]
B
And like, I'm, like I'm kind of at a point where I'm thinking how do we get maybe like. I agree, like I, I enjoy my, my creature comforts in my car, but I don't need my tailgate that costs, whatever it costs because it folds down and does this and does that. Like. No, I kind of, I kind of feel like we like, we're adding so many features into our stuff that we're driving up price and like fueling this consumption for no reason. Like it's, there's not really a reason to do it.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, well, the same things happen with construction equipment.
- [34:34]
B
Oh yeah.
- [34:36]
A
It's incredible how, how many people will prefer a piece of equipment that's made in the 80s or like decades ago over something brand new. Just because they can work on it, they don't need to plug it into a damn computer. And it typically performs better. Yeah, yeah. It drinks more fuel, but it has more power. Like there's so many people that prefer the old cat dozers, the old scrapers, some of the old excavators. There's whole businesses built on old equipment right now just because they're, they're trying. Like all of that technology is so expensive. Like the whole emissions thing, that's just like all you look at a non emissions engine versus an emissions engine, it's incredible. Like when they have them, when they're repowering them. In California, a657, I've seen them both side by side. The emissions engine, I don't know engines or non emissions, but I can look at it and be like, that's an engine. I kind of get what's going on here. You look at the emissions engine, it looks like it's going on the space shuttle. It is insane how complicated this thing is. And there's sensors everywhere and wires and every, you know, rare metals to make, you know, to deal with the temperatures from the DPF and stuff burning. It's so complex and so complicated. All of that's just passed along to the consumer. You're not getting any more performance. You're not getting. That machine's not making you any more money with that but you're paying for it.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah, that's a good question because like the engines definitely have gotten more efficient, but could they be even more efficient without that? And I think most people would say yes. Like the DEF process reduces efficiency I think is what most experts would say. But they can tell that engines are more efficient because they have got more efficient. Well, but then, but then programming I think.
- [36:38]
A
But the question is like there are efficiencies there, but then even just what's the downtime, how much, how much more energy goes into just producing all of that to begin with.
- [36:48]
B
Like that, that would be an interesting.
- [36:50]
A
It's like the holistic conversation of it.
- [36:52]
B
I wonder. It's very quite possible that this study has happened, but I would, I would love to see it if it does. I have never seen it. Is the additional expense needed to create the deaf systems carbon footprint high enough that the dev system itself doesn't save enough over its life to offset its carbon footprint? Yeah, that'd be super interesting to see.
- [37:18]
A
Yeah. Then this guy's argument was like, he had a great example. He's an expert in forestry and wood. And so he was like, all right, so we in the United States, we made the argument that like there's a spotted owl that was getting going to stinked up in the Northeast so we need to cut logging. It turns out it was another owl eating the spotted owl. But logging was the problem. So let's shut logging down. But that doesn't shut our consumption down. So now we have to go import logs from Canada primarily. So we have all the lumber in the United States. We can produce it all for ourselves while still growing more, while still growing more trees. Managing our forest. We go buy it all from Canada, which is no problem. We can import it. Canada is a great trading partner. They're right next door. But all of that Canadian wood should have been going to other countries. So now the other countries, now that we're buying that wood have to go to other markets. Brazil with Brazil and Russia and other markets that don't have regulation, that don't have regulation or that their growth is just far slower. Their forests aren't managed like, like all different reasons. And so there's like all these effects down there that, but we never see that. So we don't think about it. And we're, we're sitting here like, well we've, we've, we've saved the forest. We've done it guys, we did it. And it's like, but the cost of doing that or his example too was. Was U.S. presidents. One of the favorite things they do is, like, dedicate these national monuments everywhere, which then just renders that piece of land completely off limits from any kind of oil exploration, mining, any kind of commercial activity whatsoever. And so they have this. If you go build a solar farm, you have to have an environmental impact study. What's all this? We're going to disturb 2,000 acres, so on and so forth. But it's like. But there's no environmental impact study of making this new national monument of 100,000 acres or a million acres, but that you could argue could have a greater effect on the overall environment. Like, you should have an impact study of setting aside that land, because, yes, now that land's not disturbed, but we could have potentially developed copper reserves here. And now we're having to go get that copper from elsewhere. Even if they're doing it right, we're having. Ship it halfway around the world, do this and do that. Yeah, we all in the environment's not this. The United States environment's not different than someone else's environment. It's all one. Yeah. And it's just like the second and third and fourth order what's happening there.
- [40:06]
B
I think it's really probably just driven by the fact that we just don't see it.
- [40:11]
A
Yes, we just don't see it.
- [40:13]
B
Even in other countries, they don't necessarily see the effects of their decisions either.
- [40:19]
A
Like.
- [40:19]
B
Like, I love Belize. Good place to travel. Some of the most beautiful coral. Great fishing. There's a lot of people there that are really great about taking care of the economy. But then. But then there's like, things that they do that you're like, you know, for as much as you care about the economy, like the fishing habitat and taking care of it, like, they're terrible at trash in places.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah.
- [40:47]
B
It's like, well, they don't necessarily see the effect of that because the trash doesn't necessarily make it into the corals that they're fishing and stuff. So I think it exists everywhere. We just have a tendency to be kind of oblivious to what we can't see.
- [41:04]
A
Well, even like trash in the Pacific Ocean.
- [41:08]
B
Oh, yeah, that's wild.
- [41:09]
A
It's wild. But it's like, all right, we need to do our part or, no more plastic straws. We're going to paper straw. It's like, the trash isn't coming from America. It's not even coming from here. And so it's like, I'm all for being more environmentally conscious, so on and so forth, but it's like, but it's not coming from here. Like, this is the straw I'm using for Starbucks right now in la. It's probably not going to the Pacific Ocean. Like, we have this under control. It's coming from the other side of the ocean.
- [41:35]
B
Which sometimes we're sending there.
- [41:37]
A
Yeah.
- [41:37]
B
Which sometimes we're sending there because we don't recycle. So we. I think that's not as bad prevalent as it was at once.
- [41:44]
A
No. Because China said, we're not buying your shit anymore. Yeah.
- [41:46]
B
We're not taking our trash.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah, we don't want your trash. But going back to Toyota, I think the EV thing started to unravel when.
- [41:55]
B
Toyota said, we're not sure about this.
- [41:57]
A
Actually, we're not sure. We don't actually think this is good for the business.
- [42:01]
B
Well, and their argument was around hybrids are actually better for the environment. Like when they look at the whole carbon footprint and just the. The materials that are needed efficiencies. What, what I think I remember reading was something like, the average electric vehicle has to run somewhere around 150,000 miles to hit the same net carbon footprint of a gas vehicle.
- [42:33]
A
Yeah.
- [42:33]
B
Whereas with the hybrid, it's like 225,000 miles. And so their kind of business model is like, we'll be in on hybrid, but we're going to look and see if there's another fuel source that is potentially better.
- [42:49]
A
Yeah. Which is very reasonable. Yeah, it's like that. I just, like, I think that's what all of the automotive companies are already doing. They're still all developing their internal combustion engines.
- [43:04]
B
Well, they are, yes. Which makes you think, like, I don't want to offend people.
- [43:12]
A
Yeah.
- [43:13]
B
Were they really ever that committed to electric or not? Because you don't invest billions of dollars in a new engine platform if you really think engines are going away.
- [43:22]
A
Well, yeah, but in the money they were quote, unquote, investing was oftentimes federal money. Wasn't even their money. So it's like, oh, yeah, we'll build this factory. How many billions are you giving us? Federal government? Sure, we'll invest some too. Like, why not go build. I get why they did it. I would have done the same thing had the Feds been like, yeah, here's a few billion. You want to go build a factory? Like, let's do it.
- [43:45]
B
I'm actually a huge fan of electric drive. I love the torque you get, and I think it simplifies the components in a car in many cases. What I haven't figured out is why there's not like in cars, what they've done in mining and construction equipment. Why don't they have diesel over electric drive vehicles? Because you can have a really small diesel motor that's running a generator and it feels like that would be a really good combination.
- [44:16]
A
Or even just diesel engines in general. The efficiency of diesel, like when we went to Europe, everything's diesel. So renting these. These diesel. These diesel cars, the range you have.
- [44:28]
B
On these, you're getting 30 plus miles the gallon.
- [44:31]
A
Unbelievable how much further you can go compared to even just gasoline. And we've just like just. Even just shunned diesel. Like. No, can't do it.
- [44:40]
B
Well, I think diesel because of it, the old black smoke.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah. It's viewed as dirty.
- [44:46]
B
Yeah. Got its view of dirty. And so we moved away from it. I also think that. Which would be another thing that'd be interesting, which is like, because you have so much more efficiency, is it really any dirtier than a gasoline engine? I think that manufacturers probably got away from it because of all the Tier.
- [45:09]
A
4 requirements, but gasoline's really just a big thing in the United States.
- [45:14]
B
Yeah.
- [45:15]
A
Diesel is king everywhere else. Everywhere else.
- [45:19]
B
Yeah, it sure feels like it.
- [45:20]
A
Yeah.
- [45:21]
B
Like obviously they sell gas, but it feels like petro or diesel, whatever they call it.
- [45:26]
A
Wherever you're at, if you get a pickup truck anywhere else in the world, it's diesel. No matter what size, every single pickup truck, diesel, that's king. Like all those Land Cruisers, the Toyota Hilux, it's all diesel and it's so much nicer. That's why one day I'm going to import 70 series into the States.
- [45:48]
B
I actually looked into it this last week.
- [45:50]
A
They're wildly expensive.
- [45:53]
B
Well, I was like, well, if they're selling these Land Cruisers in Japan, like, I'm just going to buy one and bring it here. Well, and like, I don't know if you can even import a new one. I'm guessing that that diesel engine that they're using is not tier four compliant.
- [46:08]
A
No. There's ways to do it, but it's really expensive and complicated.
- [46:15]
B
Yeah. Because we sourced some equipment internationally at times. So we dealt with it and it's difficult. Like it has to be. We brought in haul trucks from Chile once. We looked at bringing a drill rig in from Japan. It has to be before a certain year or it has to have an EPA engine, which some of those, you know, some of the manufacturers send those engines overseas. So, like, you can luck out, but.
- [46:42]
A
Well, I'm. I'm off. Like what I'm fine with is a company say, you know, company. We're, we're selling these, these engines here because it's per regulations and it's just more environmentally conscious. We're, and we're, we're big fans of the environment. We want to save the earth. Who doesn't? You want to save the Earth? I want to save the earth. Earth. Let's save the earth together. Let's do it. We're in this together. We gotta spend a little bit of money, but we're gonna do it. But then they're selling the non emissions controls everywhere else to all over the rest of the world. And I get it. It's like that's just business. That's how it works. That's how regulations work. But it's how disingenuous the messaging is. Or there's this one company that's very fixated on and which is most of them, but I'm gonna keep it as general as possible because I want to go see what they're doing because I'm curious about it. I want to see how it's working. So fixated on their carbon footprint, we're going net zero and we're doing it faster than anybody. We're going net zero. But what they produce goes somewhere and it is like the dirtiest process. Their entire, what they're producing go somewhere that has the dirtiest process possible from a processing standpoint. That becomes something very dirty. And it's like, wait a minute. So you're going net zero over here, but your entire product, like the whole purpose your business exists turns into this over here. But we're just going to ignore that. We're just going to not even say anything about that. And we're gonna say no, no, no, we're completely, totally net zero. But it's just like, but that's not like a six year old can, can, can point that out how. That's just so not true. And it drives me nuts because it's like I'm all for you doing that if it's good for business or whatever your reasons are, but it's just like it comes off like to me especially with where the world's at now and how disenfranchised I am with big business, big government, et cetera, which is where I think a lot of people are, which is why Trump won the election, which is why Trudeau just resigned, which is why every other former prime minister president has been overthrown, resigned, lost elections, because I think people are tired of that. It's just like Just tell me the truth. Just. And I'll probably be cool with it. I'll probably be cool with your batteries or whatever you're doing, but just be honest with me. I'm gonna come along with you. But if you're not honest and you're trying to paint it as something else, I don't want anything to do with it.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah. It's disingenuous. And that's when we're doing a thing with Marcus Sheridan right now. And it's like everything's built on trust. And when you say something but you do something else, it erodes that trust.
- [49:41]
A
Yeah.
- [49:42]
B
And I think that's where people get frustrated.
- [49:44]
A
Yeah. But. And I don't even blame the people with the big companies. I think the big company thing, like, I think it's so hard to remain plugged into how the world works at these big companies. I think you get fooled into thinking that the world works like the company you're at because you're just so. You get so far removed from, like, even your buying power. Something as simple as, like, buying power to big company. Or, like, I started to really understand it when people are, like. They talk about the perks they get traveling. Oh, because I'm at a big company, we have a great deal with rental car company. And they start to think that, like, that deal that they have is because of them or that's just how the world works. But it's like, no, no, no. You're being fooled into thinking that because you're in this other world over here, you're in this giant bubble that's not necessarily representative of reality. But then you start to think that that's just how the world works, but you're off in a completely different land.
- [50:50]
B
Yeah. That's wild. I think when I think about this, where I am is, like, stewardship is a good thing, and we all have a responsibility to be good stewards. But unfortunately, not everybody thinks that way.
- [51:12]
A
Right.
- [51:13]
B
And I think that's the dilemma is, does government get involved to help make sure people are wise stewards or not? The problem is, in most cases, we don't have examples of where government intervention has really done a good job. But then we'll say that. But then at the same time, there's many, you and I included here that have talked about how we're excited if RFK was to actually be able to be in the cabinet and what he could do to potentially improve the food sources in America, like, be allowed chemicals that aren't allowed in, you know, Australia and Europe And Canada. And why, why is that? Like, that's crazy. So. So we also at the same time believe that government can be a part of the solution. I think that's, that's what's so hard is like, we want people to be good stewards and we just don't know how to ensure it because we know the government's not effective or efficient at it. But then at the same time, we have hope that they will do what's right.
- [52:22]
A
Yeah, I'm not like, full on libertarian. I think even like the fires in California, to go that full circle, it's like, there should have been more government intervention there. It's like we're in the highest. We're paying some of the highest taxes in America. We do expect the government to help us out when things go wrong or to, to try to prevent some things from going wrong or when they, when they, when they go wrong, to at least like, express some sort of leadership and some sort of ownership or whatever it is. But it's like, even when stuff like that doesn't happen, you just. There's so many things. But, but this is where, like, I think governments or the medical community, there's been so many big establishments that have just obliterated the trust that they have with the public over the past few years. But I think that's a really bad thing because it's like, now people are like, we don't need any government. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We do, we do. Or like, I'm never going to the doctor ever again. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if that's good. Like, I don't think that's good. Or even, even like, my, my mentality with vaccines. It's like, I don't trust this at all anymore. But it's. But then I have to catch myself. I'm like, no. I mean, some vaccines are probably pretty good. Like, I think this is actually a good thing. Like, maybe the middle ground is probably. But we just. After you get pushed so far in one direction, it's so easy to just be like, screw all government. I hate the government. The government's the worst. And I see it with so many people online right now. The government's just terrible, this and that. But we went to, like, North Carolina. Everybody there with branch, civil, super complimentary to the government. They're like, we could not be doing this without the government. But then everybody online that hasn't been there is just like, screw the Government, they only gave those people $700 while they're sending hundreds of billions of dollars to Ukraine, this and that. It's like, yeah, that point's valid, but that's not true. Like the government's still been there. Local government, state government, like there's a lot of government that's been very supportive of that community, getting the community back on its feet. But we've just been pushed so far in one direction, we're just like, just throw our hands up, Screw it.
- [54:44]
B
Yeah, but like, but then like I'm super empathetic because I think it was just recently they released some of the salaries of the government officials in the LA area and I believe some of them were in the fire department and like total compensation with their base pay, their overtime and then like other things was like north of 4 or $500,000. And so you see like this bureaucratic system that's allowing for people to enrich their lives, like more so than we expect. I think most of us want firefighters, police officers, teachers to have a good wage. But we also all recognize the benefit for being a public servant is a pension. And you and I don't have that. We don't have that guarantee. We only get to retire if we save enough. Yeah, you know, like that's it. Like we have to make this business work so we can save enough so we can retire one day. And there's a trade off for that. But I think so many people have gotten good at kind of gaming the system for their own enrichment. That, that leads to some of that mistrust because we don't hear the story about the, you know, hundreds of people or hundreds of thousands of people who just do what they're supposed to.
- [56:21]
A
Yeah.
- [56:21]
B
What's sensational is the people who make 4, 5, $600,000 in government and it sows mistrust with those entities.
- [56:33]
A
But that, and that's the bummer to me is like right now there's so many people throwing stones at like LA County Fire Department, Cal Fire, so on these fire agencies, while the fire is still going on, like fire's still burning. Like could we just, let's just get, get it out and then let's, I mean by all means throw stones if you want, but it's like 99%, 99 point whatever percent of these people are just hardworking people serving their communities, just trying to make a difference.
- [57:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Like I was even watching, there was an interview with the mayor. Is it the mayor? Yeah, the mayor of la. Yeah, she's getting roasted.
- [57:11]
A
She is getting roasted. Her job.
- [57:14]
B
And I'm not on any side of this because I don't know enough, but I thought it was interesting. Two observations. One, the reporter was insistent on her saying it was her failure.
- [57:28]
A
Yeah.
- [57:29]
B
Just absolutely imperative. She said something like, you know, some PR person probably put together a statement that was very vanilla. It was like, we are doing everything we can right now to help the public, and when this is over, we will do a full investigation to understand where we fell short and what we can do better, which very pr, but at the same time, very reasonable.
- [57:54]
A
Yeah.
- [57:55]
B
Like you're managing a crisis.
- [57:56]
A
Yeah.
- [57:57]
B
What else are you going to say? So, like, I thought it was unreasonable by the reporter to just insist on her saying that. At the same time, I feel like, you think about Jocko and his extreme ownership principles. I actually feel like she would have just benefited from somebody not giving her advice about saying, we can do better. I think if she would have just got out of the podium and said, clearly, there's things we can improve. And I personally have things to work on. I don't know what they are currently. We're going to manage this crisis the best we can. And I can assure you, I will be accountable to this city, to these people, and let you know everything that I could have done better, and I will give you my commitment to improve on them and what that plan is. Why can't we say that?
- [58:48]
A
Yeah. Or. I mean, she was out of the country getting roasted about that. Hey, shouldn't have been out of the country. That was. You know, for whatever reason. I got back as quickly as I could, and we're here on the ground now. Let's focus on getting this under control, then we'll go on down the road. Yeah. It's just this is a situation that's been really interesting to watch because I have some insider knowledge.
- [59:15]
B
Yeah. Because you know some of those people there.
- [59:17]
A
I know some of the people there. I've been involved in fire cleanup in California before. I watch the fire, the Maui situation, very, very closely. And just. Yeah. To see it, like, this is. So was there some wild negligence? Yeah, there's some stuff that doesn't look very good, but it's also a natural disaster. It's like people are acting like it's the soul. It was like her fireworks party happened. Like she deliberately had her fireworks party on, like, the driest, windiest day of the year. Like, it's the mayor's fault or like, I am by no means a Newsom fan, but it's the governor of California. It's solely his fault. I was listening to an interview and they were just like kind of just saying it's the government's fault. It's like, okay, like, yeah, there are some valid points, like should this reservoir have been full? Yes. Like should they have warned people because they knew this was going to happen or knew this was very likely? Yeah. You know, so on and so forth. But at the same time it's a natural disaster. It's a fire. Like fire is uncontrollable weather, uncontrollable, like 100 mile per hour winds. Like you can only do so much and like understanding how firefighting works, like once it gets out of hand, you're, it's, you just, you, you have to almost just let it run its course. Like we have this belief that's like, well if, you know, fire gets out of hand, like as soon as the fire department comes, they're able to get it under control and contain. It's like, no, that's not how 100 mile an hour winds work. That's not how Santa Ana's work. In these valleys with these dry conditions. It's like the fire is going to go where it wants to go.
- [60:55]
B
Well, and like people don't realize like 180 to 100 mile an hour winds means the fire can move 80 to 100 miles an hour.
- [61:03]
A
Yes.
- [61:04]
B
Like the fire can move as fast as the wind will blow it.
- [61:06]
A
Yeah.
- [61:07]
B
It's wild. We've actually helped put out, when I, when we owned Blunt, we helped put out some fires that would start in the desert. We happen to be nearby. And we'd have water pools and motor graders and cutting fire lines. You can do pretty quick in both of those. But there was a few times where some of our guys got in pretty sketchy positions because you just are surprised by how quick it can move. It can move so fast. Even the people who are talking about how dare these hydrants run out of water.
- [61:41]
A
That's another thing. It's like you don't know how hydrants work.
- [61:45]
B
Yeah. So they have this, they have this system with several millions of gallon tanks that are throughout the system and the water gets pumped from those into the hydrants. It's like, well, we generally don't design things for the absolute worst possible situation. A hundred year flood is not the absolute worst situation. Because we've both been alive and in recent years have witnessed thousand year events.
- [62:16]
A
Yeah. Which is North Carolina, Tennessee. That's what that was.
- [62:19]
B
And so most of our infrastructure is not designed for the absolute worst scenario because it's too expensive to. And once in a thousand years usually means it's not likely going to happen very often.
- [62:31]
A
I'll take my chances. Yeah.
- [62:32]
B
So, like, this fire event is probably something that's not going to happen very often. And you don't necessarily design infrastructure around, hey, we're going to need to draw water from every fire hydrant in this system for weeks, for even days. It's not something you necessarily think about. And so it's like gross negligence on the part of people because they didn't have enough water. And it's like. And maybe that's the point here. It's just like we as a society need to be better at, like, gathering facts and being reasonable and not pointing the finger so quick. And that probably exists in construction. Like, I've been on so many projects where ill intent is. Is like, Is perceived.
- [63:16]
A
Yeah.
- [63:17]
B
And, you know, whether it's the GC pointing fingers at the subcontractor or the owner at the gc or the GC at the owner, it's like, maybe if we just took a second and said, hey, let's try and understand this a little bit better, like, what's actually going on? What's actually the issue? How's it impacting everybody? We probably would find that things went a little bit smoother.
- [63:41]
A
Oh, we've had to say that a bunch. Even at the company here. It's just assume positive intent. We're not trying to hurt people or we're not trying to make this worse. I had to talk, you know, we've had some team changes, and that was even part of my, you know, they were freaking out about, well, you know, this. We're going to have so much more work over here and this bad thing's going to happen. This bad thing. It's like, let's just back up. Do you think I made this decision to make things worse for you? Like, is that in your best interest? My best interest? No, that's not. That's not where we're coming from. We're not trying to make it worse, and maybe it does end up worse, then we need to solve that problem. But that's not like, we're not saying just work more because you're overworked and now you're going to work more and just deal with it. That's not what's going on here. But yeah, going back to the fire thing, it's just. It is amazing seeing how quickly people will just write to a conclusion and without understanding Any little bit of the situation. It's like everybody's entitled your opinion, but to their opinion, but just, I don't know, maybe like, take a few days to just learn about it a little bit more. Or like, again, maybe. Maybe wait till the fire's out and like, the situation's not, you know, search and recovery and we're not still pulling bodies out of. Out of buildings. Like, then maybe let's criticize. But just like, what does that do? What good does that do? How does that. How does. How does calling for the mayor's head right now help the situation? Like, I don't see how it helps.
- [65:15]
B
Well, it definitely doesn't help her. We need her to be, like, in the best mindset possible because although, you know, she's only a part of it, she's definitely helping orchestrate what's happening there. So, like. Yeah, I agree. So this has been brought up several times. It feels like it has nothing to do with this. So I apologize. But years ago, there's this football game, super bowl, and it's with the Seahawks, and they have beast mode. Running back, like, hey, this guy, Marshawn lynch, he gets yards every time.
- [66:00]
A
I'm just here, so I'm not fined. Like, just.
- [66:03]
B
He's the guy who's gonna. He can run the ball so hard. So the debate is around. The Seahawks throw a slant at the end of the game. And why do they do that? Because it gets intercepted and they lose the Super Bowl. They should have given it to Marshawn Lynch. And so, like, I've been in boardrooms with, like, CEOs and conversations about this was the wrong decision. And this whole debate about why it was the wrong decision. Recently I was at this speed clinic to teach speed to athletes. And I happened to be there with just world class individuals, like people from all over the world. One of the guys named Stuart, he's an Olympic trainer, and one of the guys brings up a presentation and it brings up this story again. And I'm like, oh, this story again. We're gonna talk about it. But what he did is he's like, was it the right or wrong decision? And most people say it was absolutely the wrong decision not to give Marshawn lynch the football. Like, he was an incredible running back. He would have scored. Absolutely.
- [67:12]
A
Which is the easy response because you're right. Like, at face value, it was the right decision. In hindsight, they lost, clearly, because it.
- [67:20]
B
Was the wrong decision, because he threw the slant and was intercepted. Then he starts pulling up all the stats and it Was like, how many yards does Marshawn lynch get in this scenario? How many yards does Marshawn lynch get on this down? How likely were they to get this many yards with a slant? How likely were they to score? And you look at all the numbers, all the statistics and you actually say the coach made the right decision. Statistically there was not one flaw with the decision he made, but it goes down in most of modern football history as the worst decision made. And it's that outcome bias. Right. Like we create a bias based off the result or the outcome. So like I did this, this was the outcome. Clearly what I did was wrong. Like we've made decisions at build with that have gone wrong, but the decision was right. Yeah, like, but, but there's part of business is you can't control everything in your environment.
- [68:25]
A
Yeah.
- [68:25]
B
So you can't question what, what you have done if you know the decision was made. Right. Like you understood the market, you understood the risks. You, you talked it over, you looked at your strengths, your weaknesses and you decided this was the right move. And then funding got pulled on a project like, oh, clearly we made the wrong decision to do this type of work because we had this $20 million job and it got canceled. It happened to us, won a 20 plus million dollar job. Two days later after being awarded it, having 26 pieces of equipment on it, the job got pulled and we had the worst year ever in our history. And it was like, oh, we made this huge mistake by going after this strategy. No we didn't. We experience business and I think that happens in the government. I think that happens in life. We're so quick to say because of this result, that person is incompetent. But we don't understand everything that they did to come to that decision. And in many cases it was a really, really thought out, good decision. Now clearly there's also incompetence and the other side of it. But yeah, I just think it speaks to that same thing of man. I think we need to give people credit because most often people are trying to do their jobs well and not just, you know, doing things, you know, for the heck of it.
- [69:50]
A
When I was talking with the, with Jerry at Ames, he was just like, I have not met one person that wants to get hurt. And it's like, yeah, I think that's a very valid point. But it's like, I feel like a lot of safety programs are almost, they just talk to you like you're a 6 year old. Like you're like, you don't know what's best for you? Like, you don't know what's best for your safety, or you're not smart enough or whatever it is. So we're going to take care of. And it's like he was saying it from that perspective. It's like, people, they want to go home to their families and they want to do a good job. They really do. It's interesting, too, in business, you'll lose that job. But then I feel like it does require a degree of humility, too, to be like, hey, we did everything we could, but it was ultimately, it just didn't go our way. But I see a lot of people, especially in this world, big egos, then just like, double down on it and like, no, no, no, we won this job. You can't pull it from us. We're gonna see you in court. And they just go so far. They, like, they don't have the awareness to just back up and say, hey, we had all the information, we made this call. It ultimately turned out to be the wrong call. But here's what we learned as a result, and here's what we're gonna do going forward, and here's how we're going to adjust. X, Y, Z. They then go in and get into this fight and even, like, people within a company, like, they'll just dig in further to go prove their point. And they're like, no, I'm right and I'm going to be right and I'm not going to stop until I, like, there's. I see so much of that too, which does nobody any good. Because then you go get caught up in some legal battle over here that then is consuming so much of your time, so much of your mental energy, so much of the company's money, and you're not focused on how are we getting out, how are we getting out of this, which then causes more damage in the grand scheme of things. Which is another interesting. Like, I feel like I see that a lot, a lot.
- [71:59]
B
Like Rich Devini, one time when he was meeting with us, he talked about how in the Special Forces, I think we often think of, like, oh, the way they win is because they, like, go, take this on, head on, right? Like, they just go find this enemy force and they just go take them on, head on. And he's like, the best operators, the best special team forces usually are trying to figure out how to do it without going head on, trying to figure it out. And I think it kind of speaks to that, like, okay, this job got pulled. Now I'm Going to go fight this customer. I'm going to take this head on. Or you can be like, all right, that sucked. How do we still win?
- [72:36]
A
Yeah.
- [72:37]
B
Okay, well, if we can salvage a relationship, when this job comes back, they'll probably be empathetic to us. So how do we keep this relationship good? And we just lost a ton of work. How can we replace it? How can we replace it quickly? In my case, we did replace it, and we did replace it quickly, but we didn't replace it wisely. So it was lower margin work schedules, and it led to the worst year of my life.
- [73:05]
A
Then you end up paying for.
- [73:07]
B
It was terrible. Yeah. But I learned from that, too. Like, hey, we needed to work, but I let it be desperation. I didn't think through some of the things that we were doing, and we were probably a little bit desperate in the way we got that work.
- [73:22]
A
It's going back to the Seahawks call, too. It's interesting how quickly people criticize. It's as you get, at least as I've gotten further into business, I've become far more charitable and far more understanding of, like, how things really. Because now as you get further in, you start to understand how things work more and more and more, and the scale starts to grow, and you're just not as quick to criticize or jump to conclusions, or at least that's how it's been for me, in a way. And it's just now it's, like, odd for me to watch people criticize like, an athlete when they can't even throw a football. It's like, dude, you're like, 60 pounds overweight. Why don't you go. Why don't you go like, get that together before you start to go criticize an athlete. Like. Like, do you not see. Do you not see this? Or people that'll criticize, like, Like Elon Musk, like, or these companies, even these, these. These analysts, and all they do is just critic. They've built an entire career on talking shit about companies because they're not good enough to go build a company, operate a company, do anything, create any value in the world. All they. All they do is just stand on the outside and throw stones. It's like, they're the ones doing it. They're the ones creating value. Like, how could I go say, Elon Musk is an idiot? Like, the guy has rocket ships and he's building tunnels and he's doing Neuralink and he has te like, Tesla, he's bringing Internet to the world. Like, okay, does he say some Ridiculous shit. A hundred percent. He says some wild stuff that oftentimes is like, that's ridiculous. I'm not going to sit here and say like, well, he's just like the worst CEO ever. Like he's, he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't know, like he kind of knows what he's doing. I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest and that's like, who am I to even comment on his business situation? It's like, I'm just not in that place.
- [75:22]
B
I think that's the Dunning Kruger effect, right? Yeah, that's exactly what it is. The people who have the least experience are often the ones who criticize the quickest because they don't know what it takes. And I think that's where you get into that valley, that valley of the Dunning Kruger effect. And you're, and you go through like tough things in business, tough things in life, and you're starting to climb your way out. I think you can look back and start to extend a lot more grace because you realize what it's like. You're a new guy on a job site. You're young, you're talented as an operator. It's so Easy as a 20 something year old to be like, dude, this foreman is an idiot.
- [76:05]
A
Yeah. Yeah. This guy has no idea what he's doing.
- [76:07]
B
No idea he's doing. Yeah, it's just easy to do because you don't understand like how hard it is to make sure that your, your cost isn't on your, on your time card and making sure it's going to the right accounts and, and dealing with all of these different personalities and, and.
- [76:23]
A
You don't, you're not even deadline Friday.
- [76:26]
B
And, and you're not even aware like, oh, he's over here mentoring this person who's, whose wife just left him.
- [76:31]
A
Yeah.
- [76:31]
B
Like you're oblivious to all of that. Like it's easy to do as a young person. And I think just being like, if you can be aware as a young person, and that could be literally young or it could be new and acquiring a certain skill. Those around you who have that skill or have been in that industry for a long period of time probably extend them some grace and hopefully they'll do the same because there's just value wherever you're at in that curve. Like that excitement and ambition you have as a young person. Like if you're a good foreman, you're like, how do I bridle that? How do I bring that excitement to the crew. But hopefully, if you're a young person in the industry, you're like, hey, how can I take some of the wisdom? How do I ask good questions? So when the foreman says, no, we're not going to do that today, how do I ask a question the right way that he knows that I want to understand why?
- [77:33]
A
Yeah, I think it's the question and it's the intent of the question too. Like on construction sites. I see this on the Internet all the time. But I've never met a really good superintendent, company owner, operator. I've never seen the really the best in class criticize others. They don't know what they're doing. I haven't seen that very much sometimes when they really don't know what they're doing. But it's always people on the Internet, oh, that looks chaotic. And I always respond like, some guy said it today, like that Phil looks like they don't know what they're doing. And it's like, cool. Yeah, I'll pass that along to them. You're really helping them out. Thanks, man. I'll let them know to give you a call so you can get them squared away. That's just the dumbest comment. But one of the best questions I've learned to ask is, why are you guys doing it this way? And ask it in a genuine sense. Like, when something doesn't make sense to me, I think I'm like, that excavator set up wrong. Like, they shouldn't be loading like that. That's stupid. Instead of be like, you guys are loading wrong. Like, why are you guys loading that way? Almost nine out of ten times they have a really good answer. They can right away, oh, xyz. And then to me in my head, I'm like, that's exactly it. That makes perfect sense. This is actually the best way to do it in this scenario. I just didn't have the information, but people were just like, oh, they're loading wrong. It's like, well, you don't you have one of 10 data points.
- [78:54]
B
Yeah, well, that and like, let me go record your job and let's see what happens.
- [78:58]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [79:01]
B
Let's go see what you do. I think that's a great way to do it. I even think when you're talking to somebody and you're newer in the industry, even just like recognizing like, so same scenario. Your question's great. I think sometimes, like, a better one can be, man, you've been doing this a really long time. And I just don't understand like, everything that you have been doing or why you've been doing it. So, like, a better question can be like, hey, I know you've been doing this for a really long time and you probably have, like, experiences that have led you to make this decision. Can you just walk me through, like, why, like, what happened that made you think, like, what happened in the past that made it so that you wanted to do it this way. And then, like, what it does is it starts to like, unlock some of that institutional knowledge that exists. Like, okay, let me tell you what, 10 years ago I was on this job and this is what happened. And after that happened, I swore I would never let somebody be in that scenario again. And so that's why we now do it this way. And it's like, oh, that's really good.
- [80:03]
A
Which I think that level of learning is essential because I think mistakes were definitely more tolerated back in the day. Yeah, injuring people was a no, no, but it happened. More equipment damage, rolling machines. I've seen some wild pictures back in the day. It was a little bit more western. Construction was. And I think a lot of that was essential for people to learn a lot of good lessons. And now I can't roll machines or I'll also get fired. Like, I can't hurt people. I can't do a lot of things that could have happened back in the day, like situations that, that might have happened or like, I can't even just get into machines now and try stuff out. Like, it's just, there's, which, that was.
- [80:54]
B
The expectation was like, oh, you want to learn the equipment after we get done off shift, you can run it for two hours.
- [81:00]
A
Just, just get in it. Yeah, yeah, everyone's going to leave. Get in and don't kill yourself.
- [81:04]
B
Yeah, everyone's going to leave and you can go run it for two hours.
- [81:06]
A
Yep. Which is, which is what, what I did years ago too. But, but now there's the safety requirements, insurance requirements. It's, you know, you're, you're, you're winning jobs based on qualifications and there's all these restrictions. So mistakes are, there's a much higher cost to mistakes now, which then doesn't allow people to learn as effectively sometimes. But it's, that's not the only way to learn. Like, you don't have to go make those mistakes. If, if this next generation can more effectively learn from the past generation on what mistakes they made and why, you don't have to go make those yourself. And we can't make those ourselves. But I Think we can still learn from that?
- [81:46]
B
Well, so like on the product side of things, for training, we actually just last week we were talking about this. We're actually going to work on putting together a guide on questions, like how to ask good questions, both for the people who are learning and those who are, you know, supervising people. Because like build with training. I think sometimes we get people who buy build with training and they're like, now I have a training program. The end. It's like, no, no, no, no. Now you have a tool to help make training easier and to help frequency be higher. Like, do it every day, but this is just a part of it. And like, people probably got tired of hearing you say this. But like questions to me is like the secret to unlocking. Like you can watch a 3 to 5 minute micro training and you're gonna learn something. But if after you watch that video, I say like, hey, Aaron, I know you're kind of new to the industry. Would you mind sharing with us what you learned today? And you share what you learned and now all of a sudden you're having to repeat what you learned, your key points. And then if I now say, dude, that's awesome, Harrison, you've been doing this for 20 years. What would you add to what he just said? If you were to say, what's one more thing that's really important around that topic? What would it be? And Harrison says it. And then maybe I do one follow up question. Do you have a story of how you learned that? Boom. All of a sudden we went from I watched your micro training to you taught me what you learned. He taught you something that he's learned. And he told you a story as to why he learned it and why it's important. And now in 10 minutes, we did that every day. We've elevated the learning in our organization.
- [83:28]
A
Substantially well and we've made our toolbox talks a hundred times more effective instead of the exact same thing every single day. And if you just stack up that one little bit of knowledge, that one little bit of learning, 10 minutes every day, five minutes every day, like we talk about it, becomes huge over a one year period.
- [83:50]
B
Well, and I think sometimes safety is. I've reflected on this. I have clearly made safety violations in my career. Most definitely. I remember one time I climbed in a trench and it was close to six feet high. And luckily I had somebody call me out on it.
- [84:07]
A
I don't believe anybody that says they haven't made a safety mistake.
- [84:13]
B
But I thought to myself, I know I shouldn't do that. Why did I. Like, why did I. Well, it's because ground's pretty good in Arizona, and I made some risk assessment, which was like, that person needs help, clearly, right now, and if I jump into the trench, I'm the owner of the company, and nothing's probably gonna happen to me, but if it is, like, it's me, I'll go do it. It was the wrong decision. Like, shame on me. But then I was like, clearly, I. I say, I know I shouldn't do it, but I clearly don't believe the risk is that high. Like. Cause I want to go home. Like, I want to see my family. I don't want the idea of my family being at my funeral. That's not something that sits well with me.
- [85:08]
A
Mm.
- [85:09]
B
So, like, where I kind of, like, come back to is we. We don't want to get hurt, but if we're making decisions that we know have risk, we must not truly understand the risk. And so, like, when you talk about toolbox talks, I think, like, same thing. Example. There's a toolbox talk that gets done in Arizona all the time around venomous snakes and insects.
- [85:34]
A
Yep. One of my favorites because it happens.
- [85:36]
B
Like, it's real, but it is just, like, as boring of a topic as you can get. Like, talk about snakes. Talk about scorpions like they're hazards. All right, everyone sign off on this.
- [85:49]
A
And some people are rolling their eyes, like, come on, snakes.
- [85:52]
B
I'm in an excavator all day. How cool. Not necessarily cool, but how much more impactful would it be if you're like, hey, today we're going to talk about snakes. Has anyone here ever been bitten by a snake or a scorpion?
- [86:05]
A
Or seen one on a job site? Yeah.
- [86:06]
B
Or seen one on a job site. Get a story or two. Most likely someone on your crew has been at least stung by a scorpion or knows somebody. Does anyone here know anybody who's been stung or bitten by a poisonous snake? One or two people raise their hands. What did that look like? If someone's seen a snake bite, it was gnarly. It was bad. Did the person tell you how bad it hurt? Hope. They said it was, like, the worst thing they've ever felt. Was it scary at any point? Yeah. They were in the middle of the desert, and they weren't sure they were going to make it. That's why we're talking about this today. I know we walk. I know. We're around poisonous insects all the time and snakes, and maybe sometimes it doesn't seem like a big deal. But today we're going to be in that mesquite grove over there cutting down trees. And I don't want any of you guys to have to experience that. So if you're going to be over there, you have to wear snake chaps. I know they're hot. I know it's the middle of summer, but none of us want to stop the day and try and rush you to the hospital and think about you not making it or you losing a leg or having a heart attack. It's just not. It's not something we want. So all of a sudden, I went from, like, just checking a box to, like, oh, crap. Like, this is a real risk and there's real consequences, and these people probably care about me.
- [87:28]
A
No, the snake thing's a perfect example. Because I grew up in Arizona. Whole life, I don't really think about snakes. Like, yeah, they're around, but you don't really see them. It's like, I'm on a job site, we're moving the earth. Snakes are going to be around. But then I really. When I went to work for Markham, the foreman told me a story about how the snakes will. A mechanic went around to work on the can of a scraper. The snakes will come up on the machine, especially when it starts to get cold because the machine's warm, and they like to get the warmth. Mechanic came around and got nabbed by the snake because the snake was in the machine. It's like, oh, I didn't even think of that. Like, that story. Just immediate connection. And then I was at a Rummel Project big safety meeting. They do some of the best safety meetings. I've been around in the industry by a mile. And we wrapped up. We were new to the site, obviously, so one of the guys, not even the foreman, came over to us and he said, hey, just so you guys are aware, we've been moving some trees out of the way. We have seen some snakes out here. I don't want you guys to get messed up by one of these snakes. I know you know how it goes. So just be really careful with going around these. These piles of brush, because there are. There are snakes out here. We've seen them. We don't want you guys to get hurt as a result. And you felt like you really cared for, like, wow, this guy actually cares about me. He identified that we're new. He didn't need to say anything. We would have just checked. Snake box. Yeah, snakes, whatever. But even just that degree of care, it's like, oh, it just Drives home the point so much more clearly than there's snakes. Watch out.
- [89:03]
B
Yeah, that's so good.
- [89:04]
A
Yeah.
- [89:05]
B
I think even just maybe the other thing on safety meetings is like, you think about a mission brief and like these special teams and I know like some people get tired of hearing this, you know, like, oh, this is like the special Forces. Obviously it's very different. But a lot of people relate to the, the military and Jocko and you know, those types of people. And you think like when they go into a mission, they're like, they're like, you know, pre mission brief is really, really important because it's life or death. The reality is this construction is life or death. Like we still have. And whether that's mental health or, you know, physical health or, you know, the things that they're actually doing out on the job, there is risk if somebody can help. And we're talking about this with Marcus Sheridan today. Like the importance of energy. If you're a foreman or superintendent, if you come into that meeting with the energy of, okay, today we're going to talk about. That's the energy that's going to go through that whole meeting. You can control that by saying, hey, man, today we're going to talk about something that can seem maybe not that important. And we're going to talk about struck bys. But before we do, does anybody here know anybody who's been hit by a piece of equipment or run over by a piece of equipment? And like, you know, if you're a foreman, you probably know somebody. Like, I, I was around long enough. I know people.
- [90:29]
A
Yeah.
- [90:29]
B
And it's like, let's, let's just talk about that real quick. Like, oh, yeah, this person got ran over. Like they got ran over by a car. They were working. Like, you know, there's tons of stories. So just know not only can you use questions, but just be aware your energy as a leader leading a safety meeting is infectious. And if you come in like, oh, this is just another meeting, it's going to definitely carry into that meeting and.
- [90:55]
A
It'Ll be just another meeting. Yeah.
- [90:56]
B
And it won't be as effective as it could be.
- [90:58]
A
Yeah, well, I'm about to pee my pants.
- [91:01]
B
Yep.
- [91:02]
A
So we'll call it a day here. But I feel like, yeah, we, there's a lot of nonsense and we got some good stuff, so eventually got there.
- [91:09]
B
Cool.
- [91:10]
A
Well, thanks for stopping by. Yeah.