Randy Blount w/ BuildWitt – DT 426

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt

Episode DT 426: Randy Blount w/ BuildWitt

Release Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Aaron Witt
Guest: Randy Blount, CEO of BuildWitt

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Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Aaron Witt sits down with Randy Blount, CEO of BuildWitt, for a candid and wide-ranging conversation about the state of the construction industry, focusing on safety, health, company culture, leadership, and stewardship. The two discuss the alarming rate of fatalities in construction compared to the military, why productivity and well-being lag, and how both businesses and individuals can do more to uplift the industry. Their discussion flows from exploring root causes to reflecting on the impact of generational attitudes and concludes with a call for intentional stewardship by industry leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Construction Safety vs. Military Fatalities

Timestamps: 00:00–06:45

• Aaron highlights the stark statistics: 5,000 construction worker fatalities per year in the U.S. compared to about 1,000 military deaths, most of which are training incidents, and over 7,000 deaths in the global war on terrorism (2001–2024).

• Emphasizes lack of standardized training in construction compared to the military.

  “On-the-job training is code for there is no training.”
  — Aaron Witt (04:00)

• Parental perspectives on career path safety and industry problems for attracting new talent.

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2. Mental & Physical Health in Construction

Timestamps: 06:45–12:00

• Discussed dangerous rates of accidental drug overdose: 11x more overdose deaths than on-the-job fatalities in construction.

• Explore the interplay between physical and mental health—poor physical health often drives poor mental health in the industry.

  “I would argue it’s more of a physical health problem than a mental health problem.”
  — Aaron Witt (08:25)

• The negative public image about construction (e.g., “plumber’s crack”) stems from real health issues, hindering recruitment.

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3. Work Hours, Compensation, & Productivity

Timestamps: 07:10–10:54

• Construction workers typically work 50+ hours in peak times, far more than office workers.

• Even with high hourly rates, take-home income often isn’t sufficient due to hours and cost of living.

• Direct connection between low pay, long hours, and health/safety outcomes.

  “You need the income. It's the only way to make it.”
  — Aaron Witt (07:51)

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4. The Culture of Eating and Health Habits on the Jobsite

Timestamps: 12:00–16:06

• Adverse jobsite food choices; stigma about eating healthy.

• Discussion of the marginal cost of providing healthy meals (0.6% increase in bids), but significant potential benefits for worker health, safety, and potentially retention.

  “If anything’s different on a job site about what you’re doing, it’s going to be called out.”
  — Aaron Witt (13:15)

• Employer responsibility in shaping worker lifestyle by the nature of hours, location, and demands—even if not directly about food.

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5. Injuries, Fatigue, and Addressing Core Issues

Timestamps: 16:18–23:10

• Fatigue, poor physical health, and substance use contribute heavily to workplace injuries.

• Caffeine and smoking: Coping mechanisms, often for stress or to justify taking breaks.

• Lack of social connection and human interaction on mechanized sites contributes to mental strain and isolation.

  “The most common medication when tired actually makes you less reactionary.”
  — Randy Blount (18:24)

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6. Culture, Turnover, and Short-term Thinking

Timestamps: 24:30–27:40

• Many large contractors operate on short-term, high-burnout cycles: hire for projects, work immense hours, then lay off.
• High turnover’s unaddressed cost; better work culture and investment in employees would yield better productivity and retention.

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7. Rethinking Safety: People vs. Policies

Timestamps: 27:40–34:36

• Criticism of “safety by controls”—adding rules instead of addressing underlying causes or treating people like adults.

  “We’ve largely done it [safety] through rules, process, by treating human beings like children, largely.”
  — Aaron Witt (29:10)

• Rules are often created as blanket responses to rare events, sometimes at the expense of autonomy and satisfaction ("chains for rigging" example).

• Over-regulation can drive talented workers out of the industry and increase costs unsustainably.

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8. Productivity Lessons from Manufacturing

Timestamps: 37:03–40:58

• Manufacturing lines have increased productivity via investment in frontline workers, process boards, and open feedback—construction lags in sharing and standardizing best practices.

• Citing companies like Petticoat-Schmitt achieving significant productivity gains (e.g., filming crews and "game film" approach to process improvement).

  “[In] good factories, there’s a board at every station… I don’t see that happening at construction.”
  — Randy Blount (37:52)

• The value of regular "manager walks"—being with and learning from employees rather than directing them.

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9. Generational Attitudes, Coaching, and Knowledge Transfer

Timestamps: 44:12–56:44

• Observations about how senior staff force new entrants to "pay their dues" as a form of rationalizing their own difficult path, impeding progress.

• Dunning-Kruger and generational biases: Overconfidence among youth, cynicism among experienced workers, wisdom comes with experience.

• Suffering's value is realized when it's used to help the next generation avoid the same mistakes.

  “Doesn’t that make my suffering worth something then — to prevent that individual from having to endure that?”
  — Aaron Witt (55:44)

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10. Coaching for Process, Not Just Outcomes

Timestamps: 56:44–63:10

• Coaching in construction too focused on outcomes (e.g., margin, schedule) rather than the process.
• Drawing parallels to sports (Nick Saban's process focus); emphasizing feedback, awareness, and process discipline leads to better and more sustainable success.
• The industry’s future hinges on process-oriented leadership.

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11. Stewardship, Giving Back, and the Second Mountain

Timestamps: 70:07–79:51

• The importance of experienced industry leaders continuing to invest in and mentor the industry after retirement or sale of their business.

• Criticism of those who leave the industry and give nothing back.

  “If you aggregated a lot of wealth from the industry, find a way to keep the industry healthy… That’s good stewardship.”
  — Randy Blount (74:22, 75:44)

• Moving beyond financial charity: giving time, mentorship, and intentional, direct involvement are critical forms of stewardship.

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12. Reflections on Process, Mission, and Progress at BuildWitt

Timestamps: 61:18–66:54

• Aaron and Randy reflect on BuildWitt’s journey—staying mission-focused, learning from each step, and realizing that lasting impact follows from focusing on process and consistency rather than quick wins.

  “People often overestimate what they can accomplish in a year and underestimate what they’ll accomplish in a decade.”
  — Tony Robbins, quoted by Randy Blount (63:48)

• Acknowledgement that though change is incremental and hard, progress is visible, and the industry is responding to their efforts.

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13. A Final Call for Community and Industry Improvement

Timestamps: 66:54–End

• The industry is full of both great and poor companies, but positive change depends on raising the performance of the good and great.
• Both reiterate their long-term commitment to the construction “mountain,” and the need for mission-driven leadership and stewardship.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “On-the-job training is code for there is no training.”
  — Aaron Witt (04:00)

• “You could argue it sets us back… And I want them to remain more than anybody. Like, those are the people we need the most, I feel like.”
  — Aaron Witt (81:14)

• “The most common medication when tired actually makes you less reactionary.”
  — Randy Blount (18:24)

• “We’ve largely done it [safety] through rules, by treating human beings like children, largely… that’s the lesser way to achieve that outcome.”
  — Aaron Witt (29:10)

• “If you aggregated a lot of wealth from the industry, find a way to keep the industry healthy… That’s good stewardship.”
  — Randy Blount (74:22, 75:44)

• "People often overestimate what they can accomplish in a year and underestimate what they'll accomplish in a decade."
  — Tony Robbins, as quoted by Randy Blount (63:48)

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Important Segments and Timestamps

• Fatalities and training crisis: 00:00–06:45
• Physical/mental health and industry culture: 06:45–16:06
• Cost and productivity challenges: 16:06–27:40
• Safety rules vs. people: 27:40–34:36
• Productivity lessons from factories: 37:03–41:30
• Knowledge transfer and coaching: 44:12–56:44
• The necessity of stewardship: 70:07–79:51
• Final reflections on mission and industry change: 61:18–end

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Summary Tone & Style

The conversation is candid and reflective, marked by frank assessments, analogies to sports and manufacturing, and a passionate commitment to improving the dirt world. The hosts’ genuine care and well-worn experience shape a discussion that is critical but deeply constructive, with a focus on practical solutions, humility, and long-term investment in people and the industry’s future.

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For listeners and industry professionals alike, this episode is a must-hear deep dive into the challenges and promise of the dirt world, offering both sobering facts and inspiration for change.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of the Dirt Talk podcast is with Randy Blunt, who is the CEO of BuildWit. Yes, the BuildWit. After building a civil construction company from a small family business to one of Arizona's most capable contractors, he joined BuildWit to develop the dirt world's next generation in a bigger way a few years ago and officially became CEO the beginning of 2025. For those that, that don't know, Randy, he leads product, the software. He leads the business of build with. I lead the brand of build with. And that's why we we got NARA Lanes last year. And that I think is one of the best things we've done as a business. It's allowed both of us to run. We have very similar values, but very different perspectives. He comes at it from a contractor perspective. I come in at come at it from a punk kid perspective. But we've worked together now for many years. He was originally a bill with customer and now he is leading the charge in our efforts to train and develop the dirt world's current and future generations. Really exciting stuff. He'll be on the podcast frequently, I think this year and in coming years. Just talking about what the heck's going on in the company. Stuff we're thinking about. We always have a great conversation. This one was no exception. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go. To kick this off, I want to start on something I've been thinking about a lot recently. This is the stat here. And I think we need to talk about this more, which is why I want to bring it up. More than 7,000 US service members died in the global war on terrorism, g what between 2001 and early 2024. So that's 7,000 US military fatalities over 14 years.

[B]

I don't know where this is going.

[A]

And the United States military fatalities on an annual basis within the US Military is about a thousand. A lot of those are training related incidents around the world. The construction industry has 5,000 fatalities within the United States of America every year. That hasn't really changed in quite a few years now.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy because you need to be

[A]

closer to the mic.

[B]

Oh, are we actually going?

[A]

Yep. All right. And so if I put those numbers up on the screen and I might even do this with speaking two categories. You're a parent, you're choosing which career path you want your child to choose. Here's a career path where a thousand people every year perish. And I need to. We potentially need to adjust this, be fair for total population, because that is A consideration. But a thousand people perish over here versus 5,000 over here. And on the a thousand category, they're going to go through at least a few months of training. At minimum. A few months. And over here, zero training. No training whatsoever. They're just gonna go for it.

[B]

Yeah, well, they're gonna have on the job training.

[A]

They're gonna have on the job training. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. But who are they assigned to? What is the curriculum? Probably doesn't exist.

[A]

On the job training is code for there is no training. What I've learned, and I haven't seen it argued a different way.

[B]

There's obviously probably exceptions. So there's probably companies. There's probably companies that really do do on the job training well, but they're very. They're like. They're like snow leopards.

[A]

Like, I haven't seen one.

[B]

They're very hard to find. Yeah, it's. You know, I'm a parent, right. I have four kids. My daughter graduates, and I'm thinking about, like, what careers would I want my kids to do? And so I think about that, like, even my son. I was like, man, I want my son to go do something this summer because he's 16, and I'm like, where could I send him to go, like, do hard work but feel confident he would be safe? Yeah, like, that's. I love this industry, but we have a problem there.

[A]

Well, to. I mean, to think that I'm safer in the military. In the United States military.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

During the global war on terrorism.

[B]

Yeah. Which, like you said, potentially there's less. But, like, even if we adjust those numbers to be per capita, it's gonna be at least close.

[A]

It's gonna be close. Yeah, it's gonna be close.

[B]

I think it still is less safe because I did this. I had this conversation with Dan, actually.

[A]

Well, that's why I bring it up, because I hadn't really thought about it until you guys started talking about it. And then I was like, whoa, whoa. And then you start to think all the other people dying, suicide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Drug overdose.

[B]

Well, isn't it chronically. Isn't it like six. Isn't it the. Isn't it like, there's something like 16 times.

[A]

So the most recent number is 11 times.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Approximately. But that's because the border's shut now. That's not because we've gotten better. That's just because the flow of drugs within the United States has significantly been hampered over the past year with the closure of the border. It's just a fact, because overall fatalities are Down. Which is great. Like. Yeah, that's, that's a big win. Let's limit the inflow of fentanyl within the United States. Go figure. But that, that it's not because the industry is necessarily done anything.

[B]

So 11 times more likely to overdose if you're in construction than if you're in the general population.

[A]

No, it's, it's 11 times the fatalities. 11 times the deaths by accidental overdose within the construction industry compared to on the job fatalities.

[B]

That's crazy. So you're saying if it's 5,000 on the job, 55,000.

[A]

It's a huge sum. It's a huge sum. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[B]

It's sad. Well then, so not only do I have I been thinking about that, but I've also been thinking about, does pay align with that? Right. Like if you're doing, you know, underwater welding, like you're making $150,000 a year or whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Maybe pay aligns with higher risk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if I'm way more likely to die in construction than I am being at an office somewhere does that, is that reflected in pay? And I don't think that is.

[A]

Well, that and then the hours worked within this world far greater than an office worker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

White collar worker. Far greater. I think the average is like 37, 38 hours. Like who's working 37, 38 hours in construction?

[B]

Well, most people become accustomed to having to work the 50 plus during the summer because they like they need it.

[A]

You need the income.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the only way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's the only way to make it. Math and even a hundred thousand dollars now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like the three kids at home.

[B]

So like I saw, I saw what it say is like two kids. It was like two to live comfortably, a spouse and two kids. Like the take home pay has to be I believe in like the 170s. It's a big number.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now it's obviously depends on region.

[A]

Yeah. Don't, don't spin as much.

[B]

But the thing is, is like how do you, you know, you could just raise the, raise the, the rate of pay. Right. But, but that doesn't fix the problem because construction is already expensive.

[A]

Yes, correct.

[B]

So like we have to find a way to be more productive.

[A]

We have to be more productive and safer. And safer. I was, I had an interesting conversation. It's, it's in the similar vein with a guy yesterday. He was like, you know the. So we've been talking a lot about mental health and construction and how it's a, it's mental health. But I've been thinking a lot about the physical health and well being of the construction industry and how poor it is. It's. Yeah, very, very poor. He was like, I don't think the mental health thing is as much mental as it is physical. Or I at least think that we can't not talk about physical health if we want to solve mental health. Which was, it's like a very obvious point, but it was one I hadn't thought about before from in this context. Obviously in my personal context I think about all the time, but I hadn't thought about this context. Like he was like, I would argue it's more of a physical health problem than a mental health problem. And it's like, oh, that's interesting. That's really interesting because you just. The fact that we don't talk about physical health and construction is almost unbelievable. Almost. It's hard to fathom. I don't even understand it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How often do you hear it discussed?

[B]

Not often. But like you also realize probably some of the reasons that construction workers have like a construction worker image, that's the overweight guy, is because there is a problem. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even the plumbers crack. Right. That probably suggests that not just does the construction industry have an issue, but that the people on the outside see that issue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it probably also is one of the reasons it's harder to recruit because we're probably seen as unhealthy.

[A]

Well, and that, and so that goes to the. Well, there's this negative stigma about construction. Negative perception. And it's always talked about like it's this outside problem, like it's everybody else putting that on us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But wait a minute. What if it's true?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like what if it's true? And it's like kinda is how often you teach high school football or you coach high school football.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How often Are you guys talking about physical health?

[B]

Yeah, Regularly. We're talking about nutrition, talking about hydration, you know, if not daily, weekly, for sure.

[A]

And that's high school football.

[B]

Yeah. Calories, micronutrients.

[A]

But why do, why do you talk about that?

[B]

Because they can't perform without it.

[A]

Because they can't perform without that. And the performance within the game is predicated on people's bodies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Construction is the exact same thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we don't think it is. Or that that connection is just not. It's just, it's completely missing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because like even as we're sitting here thinking and just talking. I'm thinking about, like, food. Right. Like, food is a big part of the issue. And I would lump, you know, I would lump beer into that food as well. And that's not popular, but it's a ton of empty calories.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And lots of carbohydrates. But on the job, like, I'm like, man, I wonder if, like, a company said, hey, we're just going to provide you five meals a day. A day or five meals a week. And like, they had a meal service and it was like, good macronutrients and.

[A]

Yeah. You know, like, which you can order online anywhere.

[B]

I'm like, what would that cost? Like, it's probably like $8ameal. And like, that's a dollar a day or dollar an hour. Like, would that even make anybody. And it's just a dot.

[A]

Like, there's no burden on that. No.

[B]

So I'm like, is. Would anybody become inefficient based off of that? So, like, I'm trying to do the numbers in my head really quickly.

[A]

Yeah. Would you be losing bids?

[B]

Yeah, I don't think you are.

[A]

I. I don't think so, man.

[B]

I'm gonna. I mean, I'm gonna pull the calculator out.

[A]

Yeah, you're a calculator guy.

[B]

Like, I don't think that you lose any bids by adding a dollar per hour to your wage.

[A]

I remember. I would. Oh, man, I remember exactly where I was. I was in Sedona. I was driving up to Sedona every day for a little bit for work from Phoenix, which was like hour 15, hour 30. And I would bring a lunch every day. And the guys there, they'd be eating, you know, whatever was from the gas station, typical stuff. And I'd bring, you know, chicken breast and stuff. Like, it was all from the store. Like, frozen stuff, but, like, chicken breast. And I'd cut up some bell peppers and would have some fruit or something like that. And I remember every time like this, the superintendent out there, he was the funniest son of a bitch I've ever worked with. I wish I knew his name because, damn, this guy was funny. But I remember, I walk. Walk up to them and I'm eating some bell peppers as a snack during the day. And he's like, boy, you could shit through a screen door. Like, I. Because I'd be eating something healthy, which was different than everybody else's program. And it. If anything's different on a job site about what you're doing, it's going to Be called out. At some point, you're going to be made fun of. And I just distinctly remember, like, that was important for me. It was hard, but eating well while I was working was always important because I knew I'd get super fat if I didn't. But it was always called out. I was always given grief about it. What'd your number say?

[B]

0.6%. It would change your bid by 0.6% on average. Which.

[A]

The overall or really overall, it would be that much.

[B]

0.6%. Yeah.

[A]

I don't think that's. That sounds too much to provide.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, you don't lose a job over it. No, I mean, even I consistently the data suggests it's over 5%.

[A]

Well, and so, and, and this is my problem with that is like, well, it's not my responsibility as an employer for what our people e. Which is. That's fair.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

But how many hours are your people working? How far away do they live? Even in Phoenix? Say they live in the Phoenix metro area. They live. They live where you are, but they're working on the other side of town. You know, Buckeye, it's an hour. That's an hour one way. So even if you're doing 10 hour shifts, 10 hours, which is not uncommon. 10 hours is pretty reasonable.

[B]

12 hours of work.

[A]

That's 12 hours of work at least. Like now you're just. It's just a time. It's just basic math. Just a time equation. Which is not uncommon. I don't think 12 hours working between travel and working is uncommon in construction.

[B]

No. And most of the companies are paying you 10.

[A]

And most of them are paying 10.

[B]

Right. So then you, you know, you start to say, well, yeah, I make this much per hour, but it's really divided by 12. And I also drive this many miles.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. So. So it's like, yeah, me as an employer, it's not my problem, but the work environment is creating the problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which kind of makes it my problem. And the health and well being of my people, that's definitely my problem because that affects the performance of them. That, that affects everything in their lives.

[B]

Well, we've also talked about this. Like, it might cost you 0.6%. I could have done the labor calculation wrong, but it depends on how much of your cost is labor. It's gonna be less than that. I was conservative, but how many people get hurt on a job site because of their physical health?

[A]

I would argue it's a majority of injuries.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe not a majority but definitely a majority of certain types are trips and falls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I bet you being sedentary and or overweight has a huge impact on trips and falls.

[A]

But I think, though, you could damn near make an argument for majority, even if it's, like, from a mental cognition perspective. Like, even if it's you're a little hungover the next day or you're not sleeping well for whatever reason or something like.

[B]

Yeah. So when you say health, we're saying. Treating it as if you're an athlete. So is anything off with your nutrition, your sleep, or your physical well being?

[A]

Your well being?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And your presence. I mean, we've talked a lot about exhaustion, how that's worse than being drunk.

[B]

And did I tell you the study about caffeine? So the study. And I don't remember what college did it, but the college did the study. They found that your, you know, basically at 18 hours, your 18 hours of being awake, you have hit the legal limit of alcohol impairment. It's the equivalent. The most common medication for being tired is what?

[A]

Caffeine.

[B]

Caffeine, yeah. And caffeine actually reduces people's cognitive abilities. The. When you're tired, the feeling is it wakes me up. But they showed it actually slowed their reaction time, so they felt more confident that their reaction time was good because they didn't feel like they were asleep. But the exact opposite was the case. It actually reduced their reaction time even more. So the most common medication when tired actually makes you less reactionary.

[A]

Well, and. And that's not to say, like, whatever the three monsters a day are doing to you physically.

[B]

Yeah, well, those are.

[A]

Who knows?

[B]

Well, it's a diuretic. And dehydration has shown to impair you as well.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. At least you're getting dehydrated. But it's not like, you know, from. They're making this stuff from kale. That's another thing. It's made in a lab. So I don't know if it's all that good for you for years and years and years and years of years as well.

[B]

Yeah, well, 600 milligrams of caffeine, pretty consistently, the studies are saying that's more than you should have in a day.

[A]

600.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some of these guys are putting it down, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. Six, like three a day is 600 at least. Most are two. Some are 160 milligrams. Most are 200 plus.

[A]

But that. So this. This is interesting, though, because this is Something I've really reflected upon. Smoking, for example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So everybody knows smoking is not good for you at this point in time. Yet a lot of people still smoke, especially in construction.

[B]

Yeah, Less and less now, but vaping has become popular.

[A]

It's been replaced by vaping and certainly the pouches. Yeah, it's 100%, I think, more so of houses than anything else, but there's still a lot of people smoking. For me to apply my perspective, though, there's a flaw to it. To just think, like, well, they don't get. Why would they do that? They must be dumb. Right? Like, that's, that's. I think a lot of people would think that. Like, well, they just. They must be just stupid because it's so obvious. But to, like, there has to be some benefit they're getting or else they wouldn't be doing it. Like, there's. There's a benefit to it. And that when I asked on social media, hey, if you smoke, why? It was super insightful. Like, a lot of it is stress release. A lot of it is stress relief. A lot of it is to get a break. You know, it's just an. It's an. It's. It's. It's at least like just 10 minutes to just stop during the day. It was, it was stuff like that that was like. That's really interesting. I hadn't thought. You don't think about it from a benefit standpoint. You only think about it from a cost standpoint if you're not participating within it. Yeah. But then again, it's like, well, why are people so stressed? Why, why, why can't. Why don't they feel like they can take a break to begin with?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And even, I mean, within the construction industry, like, if you're a production hoan, for example, and you've got trucks up your ass all day, good luck eating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You could go 10 hours. I mean, I've. I'm sure you've seen it all the time. Especially, like, basements, you know, you've got trucks. Non. You're doing a big export. Whatever it is, you can go 10 hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not eat.

[B]

Yeah, well. And certainly, I mean, this is the difference. I think there's a difference in pipe crews and, like, mass excavation crews, at least in the Southwest. Like, pipe crews, I feel like, are much better at eating lunch. But it's. I think, because there's a lot more people on the ground, and culturally there are a lot. There's a lot more Hispanics, and I think they do a Better job of eating lunch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like the Earth moving cruise, your lunch is usually in your machine and if you do eat lunch, it's on the go, like you're getting loaded. And in that 45 seconds you eat half a sandwich. I have come to like, and everyone probably doesn't know this, but I have this habit where I like take a 10 minute nap almost every day. And it's not so much about being tired. It's like I need to turn my brain off because like from the time I wake up until the time I go to bed, I don't know how to not be like, just on, just on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I just, I'm just thinking about something. My wife's making fun of me because I'm. I got my calculator out like all the time. That 10 minutes is really, really important.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if you're an Earth moving crew and you were to get out of your piece of equipment for 10 minutes and like, try to do that. I don't think it goes super well on most cruise in no America.

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. And, and then say you do have lunch, you're in a machine, you're having lunch on your own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was even talking with someone yesterday about. There was. It's been one of the most exhaustive studies on longevity. And the biggest factor in longevity, it's friends, is relationships, is human connection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how much human connection do you really have on a job site where everybody's in a machine? Not that much. And especially when the company restricts radio communication to essential communication. Now you can't even with your guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you might shoot the. With everybody in the morning at 5, but probably not everybody's a little groggy. Everybody's probably, probably not sleeping as well as they should. They're not showing up like spring chickens. You know, you've been to as many of those meetings as I have. It's not the most lively crowd. You get in a machine and then you just, you don't interface with anybody. And then you get in your car and you drive. Now you're sitting in traffic an hour, hour and a half. You know, it takes you an hour to get there. Now it's an hour, hour and a half, hour 45 to get home. You're just alone. And it's like, no wonder there's a problem.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But like, I think, you know, like you're listening to this and I think where my head's going is like, well then how do you fix it? Because Everything you've said just costs more money. But we've already said this industry has not become more productive over the last 40 years. So how do we fix productivity and increase, you know, breaks and pay? Like they feel very against each other.

[A]

Yeah, but this is where like we're talking about this morning in a different context. I think this is where the belief that is like if I invest in my people, we're all better off as a result. And I think it's an investment in people which then creates greater efficiencies, which then makes more money, which then reduces rework, safety incidents, turnover. Like even, even like the cost of turnover in construction is probably crazy. Crazy. Like even if you halved your turnover, like I wonder what that would do to your profit margin.

[B]

Yeah. I mean sometimes like the root of that is like this isn't meant to be like a knock on really large companies, but like the really large companies business model is so often short term employment.

[A]

Yes. It's like project related and a compressed schedule.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're just going to blow the shit out of this project. Work everybody, 80 hours, nights, weekends, whatever it takes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we're on to the next one.

[B]

Yeah. So. So it's hard because like some of these large companies that's like their exact business model, it's like show up in, show up in a, you know, in a metropolitan where there's a big job, hire a few hundred people, get the job done in two years and then lay off a few hundred people. Feels like that is also a problem.

[A]

It is. Yeah. I, I, yeah. And I feel like I'm being like a, a downer. I'm not trying to be a downer, but I'm, this is what I've been thinking a lot about. Like it, it's just like I'm not, I'm not even saying it from a critical point perspective. I'm just, it's just so shocking to me how it's never, this is never part of the conversation. Like how much, how much time and energy and money have we spent on safety and saying people are number one and safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety. And then there's not a single mention of sleep, of alcohol, of food, of like very core physical basics.

[B]

Yeah. I think for me that's where I can't help but think like the build. What improves like different types of content are really important.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not, not like a, not like as a commercial but like this is like, this is exactly why we did it. And I have this conversation with people is how often is there a safety incident and you're sitting in a room with a bunch of executives or senior level managers and everyone's scratching their head saying, how in the hell did this happen? I know this person knew better.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we're never saying, we're doing our root cause analysis and we're coming up with something. Right. But we're never saying, like, hey, how much did they sleep last night?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're not talking about, hey, were they struggling to make their mortgage payment? Whereas, you know, him or her having struggles in their relationship.

[A]

Yeah. Their parent just die.

[B]

Yeah. Because the reality is there must be a reason that safety deaths has been so stubborn. Now, we have improved incidents, but over the last 40 years, safety deaths has been very stubborn.

[A]

But I will say, though, like the out. And this starts to get sticky because we've optimized for this outcome, that is if you need to grab it, grab it. We've optimized for this outcome, that is no fatalities, that is no incidents. But we've largely done it through controls, through rules, process, by treating human beings like children, largely. And I can, that's, I can, I can actually easily argue that's not the only way to achieve that outcome, that's the lesser way to achieve that outcome. And the way we've gone about achieving that outcome has made the. Has, has, has taken from the industry some of the things that make it so great to begin with and have actually contributed to the workforce challenge. And that's like going out on a limb.

[B]

So what you're saying is, is there's effect, there's more effective controls than engineering controls when it comes to safety. Largely just more rules. We've used engineering controls, like, more rules. How do we create a rule that prevents this?

[A]

Yes, people are cutting themselves with knives. We're just. No knives. Yes. That's a very simple, simple one. Or people are. Stuff's fallen from the sky. Head injuries left and right. Everybody and their mother needs a hard hat, which I understand. But it's gotten to the point where, and I put myself in this position, I love going out to job sites, but I always think, would I ever work for this company? Oftentimes it's, I wouldn't ever think about working for this company. Now that I've lived in the world I have, where I've been able to be an adult and like, create and like use my brain to problem solve and manage my time. And now that I've been in this world, I would never go to some of these companies. I appreciate what they do. But I could never in a million years work underneath such a restricted system. And that's because I know that that's not the only way to do it. And there's companies out there that do it in a much more caring and productive way by treating their people like people. That's the system I would much rather be in.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, examples is

[A]

a lot of

[B]

the companies we work with, you go to a company and they say, we absolutely cannot use chains for rigging.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, well, I see companies use chains for rigging all over the country and are doing it effectively. Like, how do we get to this point? And. And it reminds me of the no rules rules. Right. Like, I talk about that in that Netflix book that so often we create a rule for the exception. So what happens is chains are used for rigging all over the country. No issues. Somewhere somebody uses a chain for rigging that was clearly not for the right capacity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it broke and a link did damage or hurt somebody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now chains are evil. When. When all that they needed to do was look at the tag. And if they would have used the right chain, the chain wasn't evil. It was just. It wasn't rated for what they were doing.

[A]

Correct. Correct. But the chain is treated as the problem.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So if we eliminate chains, we therefore eliminate the problem. Not. Well, was that person trained on rigging?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was there a tag on that chain?

[B]

Yeah, that was. Could it be red?

[A]

Did they. Did they do the math on. Did they do their lift plan? Did they. Did they do the right stuff and deliberately ignore something? Were they. Have they been working 12 days straight and are just exhausted? You know, there's like all of these things. Yeah. But instead of addressing that and admitting that there was probably a failure here somewhere more systemic, which is harder to root out. Like in a. Harder to. Yeah, I get why it's done this way.

[B]

Yeah. It's easier to just say chains are

[A]

bad, but chains are bad.

[B]

Here's the policy.

[A]

Here's the policy. Now we don't have to worry about it.

[B]

Yeah. But you switch to cable rigging, you know, switch to wire cable rigging. If you still pick something that's heavier, you still have a suspended low that is not going to be suspended anymore.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And you're still have issues and you're

[A]

trying to make something that has inherent risk involved. No risk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's just. I think that's. That's totally unreasonable. I think there's inherent risk in building the world like that's. Where I struggle a little bit too with, to act like there's never going to be any risk and that construction site is a factory and we can manage everything within the factory. It doesn't work that way.

[B]

Yeah. And even factories have safety incidents and even factories have.

[A]

In a controlled environment. Yeah, but we're working in an uncontrolled environment. And like at what point can you just keep raising costs and, and at what point can you keep driving people out of the industry? Which I've talked to a lot of people that have been driven out of the industry because of greater and greater restrictions.

[B]

So like it just like takes the fun out of it for them.

[A]

Yeah. What point does it not math. And even from a cost standpoint, like at what point do we say guys like roads right now, Interstate system by mile, which is the easiest thing to study of any kind of, of infrastructure. Three times the cost, inflation adjusted per mile.

[B]

Since when?

[A]

Since we started building the United States interstate system. Okay, so.

[B]

So inflation adjusted, inflation adjusted three times as more still.

[A]

Three times the cost per mile.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like at what point does it not work anymore? At what point is it like. Because it can't just get more and more expensive indefinitely. Like even the bridge in Baltimore, original estimate is like 1.8 billion, which is like 1.8 billion is still a lot of money for a two lane bridge either direction. And now they're like, well it's actually going to be five a year. Like, you know, a year later, 15 months later you're like, wait, wait, what? Like good for the contractor. Congratulations. Yeah, but like,

[B]

well, and the engineer

[A]

and the consult more so the consultants and yeah, the engineering firm and the environmental agencies and yeah, you go down the list, you don't even know who these people are. They're making a ton of money. Lawyers. But like we can't just do that forever.

[B]

Yeah, no, we can't. And I think that's where everything we're talking about sometimes feels at odds because we're saying we need to invest in our people, we need to invest in this, we need to invest in that. But then we're also saying roads cost three times as much. So we need to figure out how to drive those costs down. I think for me, when I look at factories and I look at production, I do tend to go and look and see what they've done because over the last 40 years they have, they have increased productivity in a crazy way.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

And this is why we focus at Buildwit on the frontline employee. Because I think that's how manufacturing changed. I think there was a big focus on frontline employees. How do we make their jobs better? How do we learn from them? How do we share what they're learning? How do we teach them in different ways? Like, you go to a good factory, there's a board at every station. They probably teach them how to do what they're doing in multiple ways. Some auditory, some through video, some through diagrams. There's. At every line, there's likely a board that has everything that there are suggestions, and they're rewarding people for, you know, making process improvement. I don't see that happening at construction.

[A]

No.

[B]

Now some companies are doing it, but doing it well and sharing the knowledge. Less companies. And then it's definitely still a very small minority.

[A]

A very, like. I mean, one of the only ones I've heard of is, like, Pettico Schmidt, for example, how they film their pipe crews. They use game film to improve their efficiency. And it's like. It's genius. It's simple. It's stupid. Simple but brilliant. It's something that I haven't heard of a contractor doing before.

[B]

So we did the same thing. So when I went to Germany, I asked in advance of going there to watch how they drill. So I went there, got certified in drill rigs. Then I went back and spent a week, and they let me go to contractor sites. And in advance, I said, can I record? And I set up two GoPro cameras, and I would record them working. And then we did the same thing back in Arizona on our DRU rig. And so what, you know, it's only one job, but we had one job. We were doing about three piles a day, two to three piles a day on average. And we took the approach of. I went there, we came back, we. We learned everything that we could. Then we started recording and improving on that one job. We went from doing two to three a day to, like, eight to nine piles a day. So we tripled our production by doing what you said Petticoach does, just recording and having game film and saying, like, oh, we could cut out a few minutes. Here, look at this. Oh, look at how they prep their casing. Here, look at this. Look at that. Look how when they set their casing down, how they do it. And it made a huge difference.

[A]

They're the closest I've seen to implementing lean within the civil construction industry.

[B]

Yeah. Their process and procedures and how well they've got them documented. It's really impressive.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Their process and procedures, they have an Enormous board at every site with all of the relevant information. They're open book financially, which is key. They practice manager walks like Brian's at a consistent cadence. Going out to job sites weekly to spend time with people and ask them questions.

[B]

Yeah. One of Clyde Company's subsidiaries, Suncor. It was called Sunrock. It's called Suncor now. I think they had a project manager in one of their divisions who was very profitable and he was very good at the manager walks, which is very much a lean manufacturing principle.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm actually thinking through my talk, I need to adjust that a little bit. I think I can frame it a little bit better. Instead of lead from the front line, I think I can frame it more of a manager walk.

[B]

Learn from them.

[A]

Yeah. Just be with those making it happen. You don't have to be a leader. You don't have to be. I think people take leadership as like, I need to be in the field. Telling people what to do. No, no, no, no.

[B]

Maybe asking questions.

[A]

Yeah, you just need to be with the people. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah. Just asking questions, asking questions, learning from them. Yeah, I think I can frame that a lot better. Yeah, I need to, I need to make a note real quick. Okay. I can frame that much better. Speaking is so hard.

[B]

I don't know. I don't have to do enough.

[A]

Oh, it's just so.

[B]

Well, and you have to be, you have to be on too.

[A]

Like, it's exhausting.

[B]

Yeah. People don't realize that. I tell people all the time I can do it, but when I get done, it's tiring for me.

[A]

I'm cooked. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, I mean, I, I give it everything I have. And yeah, after an hour, it's, it's, it's high, high energy. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. But yeah, I've just, obviously, I'm reflecting upon a lot of this stuff in, in, in with the desire to help contractors get to somewhere better. But again, it's like, I don't think we really understand the root problems here. I don't think we. And a story that's really stuck with me. Bob Chapman told it to me when I met him for the first time. It was, it was the coolest damn thing. I sit down with him and I, I, I, he, he talks about a big construction project he goes out to, and everything's about safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, safety. Now we're just the best. And he's with senior leadership, so on and so forth. Like, everything's about safety. And then they're walking the job site, and he sees some guys waiting, and he asks them, what are you guys waiting for? He's like, well, at the end of our shift, they make us park pretty far away and we have to take a bus. But sometimes it takes the bus 20 minutes to get here, 30 minutes to get here. So we're just waiting. We're done. We're not getting paid. We have to wait to get to our cars to then drive home. It's frustrating. And his point was just like, they're optimizing. It's all about our people and all about safety and risk avoidance. But then you have these very frustrating. Like, if it was really all about your people, like, that's the kind of stuff you'd be focused on and optimizing for is how do we get our people out of here more efficiently so that they can get home to their families faster? Like, another 30 minutes. That would drive me nuts. Like, especially with. You only have a few hours with your family every day, and there's another 30 minutes being consumed by this very frustrating thing that's out of your hands. Like, what impact does that have in your mental state, in your relationships, in your ability to be productive? Like, it seems small, and it is small, but it's not. And a lot of those things can add up. A lot of those little friction points can add up over time.

[B]

If you're talking, I'm thinking about Arbinger Institute. They have two books, Anatomy of Peace and Leadership and Self Deception. And this is, like, really prevalent in construction where, unfortunately, we. We tell ourselves that those types of things are okay because we had to do them so well. I had to wait for whatever. So now that I'm in my position, where I'm at, I've earned to be able to drive my job site, my car to the job site. They have to do their time. It's okay that they have to wait.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Another area I see this show up, it was a pet peeve of mine. It bugged me. We were bad at it. At Blunt was hiring, somebody would show up to be hired and they'd have to wait in the reception with the reception for, like, 25 minutes. And it really bugged me. If somebody shows up to your company and their first experience is you aren't important enough to go meet them at the time that they were supposed to show up. Like, it's one thing if they show up 10 minutes early or 15 minutes early. Like, maybe you can't make it work. But if they show up on time and they're waiting to meet with somebody in your operations system, like ops manager or whoever's doing the hiring, I don't like it. Yeah, it's like, it's really frustrating because it says that they're not important. That's what you're telling them by not making time for them.

[A]

What. What is that, though? Like, what. What is the human desire to make people go through what you went through? Like, isn't the goal. Isn't like, you as a father, isn't your goal to take some of the arrows so that your kids have a better future and a better life than you've had? Like, isn't that the objective? And everybody says it's the objective, but it's very rarely practiced that way.

[B]

Yeah. So there's like, that whole, like. Have you ever seen a screenshot of, like, all the newspaper articles that talk about, like, how bad this generation is?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it's like. It's like a decade. Like, every decade, for the last hundred years, we've said that coaching football, I found, like, we, like, as coaches, we would actually do something similar. Like, oh, football players today are just so soft. So I think some of it is, remember, like, the. I think it's the. Is it the Dunning Kruger effect that has, like, you, like. You, like, get up here and then you, like, realize. Because Dunning Kruger effect is basically, you have a tendency to. Those who are least experienced have a tendency to overestimate their capabilities the most. But what's like, the whole Mount Stupid thing, is that part of the Dunning Kruger effect as well?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

Cause I think what happens is, like, you come up here and then you fall. And then as you fall, you start to, like, rise out of this valley.

[A]

Yeah. As you build real experience, you build real confidence. Whereas before, you have a false sense of confidence.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So teenagers are a great example of that. Teenagers have this false sense of confidence. They have the world figured out. They have a tendency to view everyone else in a way that is negative because they say, like, oh, they don't know what they're doing. Why are they doing this way, whatever. Right. And then as you start to get real wisdom, you're growing out of this at the end. At some point, you can look back and see, like, the value of being young and energetic, and then the value of, like, working through the problems. I don't remember who made this parallel, but it was really interesting. Like, they said, like, if you imagine that you're going across this graph that rises, falls, and then you slowly work your way out of it. When you're up here and you are a teenager, you have a tendency to look at people and say like, oh, look at that 25 year old, 30 year old. Look at like, oh, when I'm an adult, I'm going to do life differently. But when you're like a 35 year old, you have a tendency to look back and say, those idiots don't know anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not until, like you arrive at wisdom, I'm going to call it, that you can value the person who's in despair because life is kicking them in the teeth and they're, they're learning and digging their way out. Those who have dug their way out and have gained some knowledge and those who have a lot of energy and have a tendency to overestimate their capabilities. And so what I think happens so often is we have a tendency to look back, especially like middle managers and say like, well, it's not that easy. Like somebody comes into the industry and says, I don't know, example of something that you thought was dumb in the industry, like, hey, this is dumb that you can't use that. I have to wear gloves while using an iPad. Like, that's dumb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And you know, as we look back, we have a tendency, I think, to say, well, you haven't been in this industry long enough to know or understand the complexities of it. Like your opinion's not. Not valued. And I think that exists in a big way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's along those lines. And I, I think it's a way to justify oftentimes the unjust suffering that we've had to endure. Like we've been abused along the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so rather than accepting that it was actually abuse and like working through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And overcoming that for ourselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's easier to just rationalize it as well. That's just the way it is. It's the school of hard knocks and they need to do their time too.

[B]

Yeah. The Harbinger Institute books are really good. I recommend it for anybody.

[A]

I need to read Anatomy of Peace. Yeah.

[B]

Anatomy is such a good book. It talks about like, are we at war or are we at peace?

[A]

I've been reading a ton right now too.

[B]

Yeah, great. So like, are we at war or are we at peace? And I think this is actually something that the construction industry is really bad at. I think we're at war a lot. We're at war. Between the GC and the subcontractor, between the owner and the gc, we're at war between those who are young and new in the industry. So to your point, they talk about this concept of boxes and one of the boxes is better than. And so oftentimes we say, I have been in the industry long enough, I have earned this, I'm better than you. So now you need to go do what I did to earn to be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like we justify. Well, you can't have what I have right now until you go and do your part. You have to earn it well.

[A]

And it's predicated on time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've been here since I've done 13 years. You need to do 13 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also treating like a year is the same for everybody.

[B]

Yeah. Well, and just because, because I had to work 20 hour shifts. You need to go work 20 hour shifts. Even though we all know that's not safe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like you need to know and understand, like you have to go earn that. Go earn that to then be the guy who gets to go home at 4 o'. Clock.

[A]

But this, this is where it's tricky because there is, there is a gray area. This is, it's all gray.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is a component that is, you do have to earn it. You do have to put in some sense of time. You do have to just put your head down, keep your mouth shut and make it happen. Like that is a, that is a piece of the industry that I actually like. I actually like that I like this world. Because you can't bullshit your way around it too much. You can bullshit your way around a general contractor for sure. You can bullshit your way all over gc. But in self perform work, it's. You either do the work or you don't. And it's this great equalizer. Like it doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter who your parents are, doesn't matter your education level. You just have to do the work and the results speak to them. Like you just have to build the bridge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You either build it or you don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it, it, it's, it's the, it's it's like it's this great equalizer. So there is this component that like you do just have to do your time, however. Like, do you have to do it in the way the previous generation did it?

[B]

No.

[A]

And is that even possible now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

And you probably shouldn't. Not that, not that they did it the wrong way, but if We. If we look and say production hasn't changed in 40 questions, we should be asking ourselves, is. Is almost every day, like, how could we do this different?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so we have to get people who are thinking, like, well, they need to earn their stripes. They need to go experience this. We need to be asking ourselves, how do they learn what I learned, but do it in a better. Like, how do they do it better? How do they learn better? How do they build it faster, how they do it safer, how they do it higher quality? Like, those are the people who are going to lead this generation into. Or lead this industry into the next generation.

[A]

Well, and. And how. And how. Like, how can they learn these lessons faster? And how.

[B]

Like, yeah, they. And they can. It's not hard.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, so often to learn better, all we need is somebody to explain the why. So, like, I'll give an example. I saw a guy, he was running a loader buck. He was running a loader, and he was doing a bad job of it.

[A]

I've never seen that he's doing a

[B]

bad job of it. But, like, really quickly, like, I saw one thing that I could tell him that would be a very quick indicator is if he was doing it bad, which is on the bottom of the bucket. At the bottom, you have where the loader arms hook to the bucket, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's like. There's like reinforcement right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're cutting edges and on the ground, they will leave two lines in the ground.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just got up and said, hey, when you're going in these bucket, these, these piles, the bucket is tilted up too much. One of the telltale signs is you're leaving those two marks. Guess what? The rest of the day, he didn't do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he knew if he did, if he saw it, he knew, like, hey, I just need to make an adjustment. And so it's like so often we just need to just explain a little more.

[A]

Well, and it's like that, to me, is so much more productive. Like, that's. That's so much. That's a much better. A much more productive use of my suffering. Listen, I had to learn this the hard way, and it sucked. And this is why you shouldn't do it that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and. And, like, doesn't that, like, make my suffering worth something then to then prevent that individual from having to endure that over and over and over and over and over again too? Like that. And you go like the Bible, like, those are the core. Like, that's like the Whole core principle is I'm gonna suffer so that you don't. Like, I'm gonna suffer for you so that you don't have to. So that you're better off. Like, that's where, that's why I'm. To the, to the older generation. Like, give me that knowledge. Pass that. Don't take it, don't hold onto it for the sake of ego, whatever that is, because it harms you. Because like, what was the point of suffering in the first place? You just suffered to suffer. That sucks. And then now you're creating more suffering that doesn't need to be there in the first place.

[B]

Yeah. I think some of it's just like, I don't even know if that is intentional.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

Who showed them how to coach? And oftentimes nobody. They don't necessarily even know how it is to do this. There's this. When you look at coaching, it's like bad coaching, good coaching, great coaching. It, it's, it's all coaching, but it's wildly different. And, and it makes a difference. Like you look at, you look at Nick Saban, like him or not, look at, not only how good was he at coaching football, but look at his pedigree of coaches. Like his coaches are everywhere in the, in the league. Because he focused on process, not outcome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He focused on how do you, how do you take what's happening on the field and provide good feedback? Right. Like, if you focus on outcome, it's not necessarily going to be the right thing. So sometimes we do this in construction. A lot of times, how do we determine if somebody is good? We determine it by profit margin. Right. Because it's an easy one. Now it, it's the outcome.

[A]

Yeah. Margin schedule, maybe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Margin, margin, schedule. It's the outcome. Is somebody having a profitable job necessarily mean that they have the right process? No, no. Like they could have got lucky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With an import export, they could have got lucky with a really good estimate. They could have got lucky with having a really good motor grader operator who communicated well.

[A]

Yeah. A bunch of good weather.

[B]

Yeah. You know, so we, we have a tendency to do that in construction. We don't focus what is the process and how do I coach through the process. Football is not life altering in that whether or not a team wins in football doesn't change society. Right. But the amount of effort put into determining if a play went well, if the process was right is extremely high. Getting a job built right, critical infrastructure like that happening and doing it well is what will Be life altering for the next generation. Like, we have to be good at critical infrastructure or we won't be able to compete on a global stage.

[A]

It's a fact.

[B]

We have to like, power alone is likely. What will be the limiting factor to technology?

[A]

New York just said no more data centers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the state of New York.

[B]

Because power is going to be the limiting factor. We know that. So we have to get great at building not only for the new infrastructure, but then we also have an aging infrastructure that we have to figure out how do we replace it? And we have to be great at it. We have to get better at coaching and that, like, if you're an executive, you need to be asking yourself, who am I coaching? How am I coaching? And am I focused on process, not outcome? Yeah, the outcome will come. Like, if you dial the process, the outcome will, will happen. Which is a wildly profitable company. And I think, you know, once again saying, you know, this is like a Petticoat Schmidt, like love fest here. But I think they're doing that.

[A]

They are.

[B]

They're focused on process and they have

[A]

the numbers to back it up.

[B]

And because they're focused on process, they have come out of very dark times. They had a very, they had, you know, Ryan's been clear. Like, we were struggling. We didn't know what we're going to do financially. But they focused on process and their focus on process has led to better outcomes.

[A]

Yeah. On all this, on this note, it's no wonder that we're building a whole business around this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go figure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's taken us a while to figure it out. We don't have it figured out, but

[B]

figured out and it's coming closer and it's hard.

[A]

It's so hard. Oh, yeah, it's hard. Yeah.

[B]

But if you, if you pick a big problem, I think you need to expect it to be hard.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't. Because we spend a lot of time getting the shit kicked out of us. I think we lose track of the real impact we're making in the world as well. Like, and I probably, I don't do a very good job sharing it, but even I was thinking about the other day while I was walking in Florida, I got a message from some guys like, hey, I'm, I'm. I quit my job in this other industry and I started working at Cat dealer because of the stuff I saw online from, from you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just want to say I'm enjoying it and I really appreciate it. I get messages like that all the time and I was thinking, I was like, like, we've been criticized. Sometimes I think we're, we're our biggest critics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By far, at least me, like, I'm beating myself up mentally all the time. Beating the business up within my head all the time. And this is going to sound a

[B]

little

[A]

maybe overconfident, but it's like, show me another organization within the civil construction industry doing more to grow leaders in the next generation in America.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of other people doing good, but we, we probably could say with our reach, with our efforts, with the number of people completing lessons with.

[A]

Well, but through social, through improve, through Dirt World, through the podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, yeah.

[B]

Even if you, what we know this from statistics. If you take your posts on LinkedIn, mine, Dan's and Jason, there's not another organization that touches what we reach.

[A]

No.

[B]

Not even close.

[A]

No. And that, and that's where, like extrapolating this to our organization, it's like we're focused on the process, not the outcome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We want the outcome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I've, I've, I've, I, and you and I and, and everybody else, like, that's what's been hard for me about raising investment is like, it's so outcome based. Like, what's the outcome? Which I understand. Like, if someone's putting money and it's like, I need. Yeah. What's my return? Like that, that's the number one question. But for me, I, I, I struggle with that because it's like that's going to take care of itself and I, and I need to be more strategic. Like, I can't. That, that doesn't satisfy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, I've always been fixated on. I just need to do what I need to do today. I just need to do what I need to do this week. I just need to do what I need to do this month. Like, I need to focus on process right now. And I need to do like, every day, do the things I need to do today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the things I need to do tomorrow and the next day. And if I just do that every week and every month, and then if we build an organization doing that every day, every week, every month, every year, the outcome takes care of itself. We'll win at the end of the day.

[B]

Yeah. People hear me say this a lot because it's like one of those quotes that's just like stuck with me. It's that Tony Robbins quote, which is, he said people often overestimate what they can accomplish in a year and underestimate what they'll accomplish in a decade. And I think it ties in perfectly with the value of despair that James Clear talks about, which is we kind of see progress this way, but the compounding effect of effort is it's really quite flat for a long period of time, and then you start to get the exponential. And so what happens is people's expectations are greater than reality. And so people get in that despair and they often quit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The one thing that's been really cool at BuildWit is the staying power of the mission. So people might think, like, well, build what's just, you know, just been around. But no, it's not just been around. Like, I've invested in BuildWit five years ago.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So. And you were already doing it for three, I think.

[A]

Yeah, I've done it since 2017, and I've now been in the industry since 2013.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've been here 13 years, which is crazy to think.

[B]

So the reality is we have been guilty of expecting what would happen and change being more in a year than it ended up being.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But we have stayed with process, which is we believe in the OODA loop. We believe in learning what's working, making changes and moving forward. And we have done that consistently, and we are now starting to see the fruits of that. They say something like, every overnight excess. Every overnight excess only takes seven years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, well, hopefully our seven years is coming soon, because we have definitely felt it. With that said, we have also seen and felt the support of the industry. So when we talk about all these things, we definitely are calling out people in the industry in that we do think it should improve and change. Mm. But the industry is really big. There is a subset that is following buildwear that's along, you know, along with us for the ride that's going to Dirt World, that's investing in their people, that's listening to the podcast, and we're super grateful for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is a lot of good companies.

[A]

Tons.

[B]

Right. There's, you know, tens of thousands of companies in the space that we are talking about, and there are thousands of good ones, there are hundreds of great ones, and there are thousands of bad ones. We just know that we have to continue to raise the tide by helping those good and great ones that are following along. And if we do, everyone's going to have to go with it. Right.

[A]

But I think that's why the industry, even the past few years, just. It's changed for me. Just how. I don't know, you may have maybe seen it too. Like, it's just. Even with the momentum of summit, for example, or some of these things, like our authority, our position in the industry is more concrete than ever before.

[B]

Yeah. No, I had people come up to me after your summit talk, which, I mean, I've been candid. We talked about it before you gave it, like, oh, like, hey, I'm worried because, like, this is. This is. This is bold. Like, you're. But you did a great job. And I had people come up to me and said, that was the best talk Aaron's ever given. And I'm like, oh, that's good. Because Aaron was saying things that are hard to say, but you did it in a way that really landed well.

[A]

Well, but. But I. And I. And it's like, I think that's rooted in just our genuine care for the industry.

[B]

And. And I think also, like you said, the position, like, you have been to probably more job sites. I'm not going to say that anybody. But you are very rarely in Nashville.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Very rarely. Yeah.

[B]

So you're like, you're seeing hundreds of jobs every year.

[A]

It's crazy. It's.

[B]

It at least 100, right? At least 100 jobs a year.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I tell people I have far better access to the industry than the CEO of Caterpillar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because CEO of Caterpillar can't go to the Liber factory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can't go to the Hitachi factory. Can't go travel abroad with, you know, Hyundai or whatever. I can. I can go wherever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not there to sell anybody anything. I'm just there to be. But it's. It's. I think, too, like, we've. We've just had to put in our years of being focused on a single problem to even just earn the trust of the industry. Like, I think. I think that's what's changed is, like, we've started to really earn the genuine trust of the industry. Like, we've had people looking at us for a long time. Like, is this for real?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is this bullshit? And just as the years go on and as we've been consistent every year, it's like, they are serious. Like, this is legitimate. I mean, more than ever before even. I had a conversation yesterday, he was talking about how there's this, you know, book about climbing the second mountain. Like, like, like, you know, you build this business, you sell, you make a bunch of money, and then what, you know, what's the second summit, I think it was. And I was like, I don't think my life's going to be like that. Like, I found the mountain, and maybe I summit it in different ways. Like, maybe the software companies right now, and maybe we do it a different way down the road. But, like, this is the only mountain I'm interested in. There's. And I've. And I say that not from an ignorant perspective. It's like, I came up in a world where I got to see a lot. I've seen a lot like it. Nothing else interests me. Like, this world. Like, this is it. And I. But. But I think you can say that you can't. But you can't fake it over time. Like, that's. I think the great thing about time is it shows who is really serious. Like, who is really good, who is really consistent, because you can only keep up an act for so long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it starts to break down.

[B]

It's true. And I think. I think, you know, when you talk about, you know, this is your summit, I think also, like, in many ways, like, I love this industry, and I, you know, I still get the opportunity to go run a dozer. I love it. Like, I don't see that changing, but I definitely have seen, you know, how. How I want to do different things. Like, like, I want to change this industry, but, like, the way that philanthropic looks for me is, like, not only do I want to change this industry, but I still, like, love this dirt world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, now how do I go build bridges for remote communities in Uruguay or how do I drill water wells for, like. So. Yeah, I think. I think I do have a different summit at some point in my life.

[A]

But.

[B]

But it will probably still be akin to, like, you know, I'm religious, and I. And I share that I'm religious. I have been a missionary before. I don't really want to be a proselyting missionary again. Like, and some people will probably look down on me for that. But, like, I want to just go make people's lives better, because when people have access to the. The needs of their life, they're much more open to the spiritual side of things. Like, I want to go help people make sure they have food on their table.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because I think what I learned in the dirt world and what I think we'll be able to do, you know, financially as we continue to build a great business. Like, I want to then go, like, my wife and I, we have a goal of, like, how do we give this much per year for the rest of our lives. And we have to make a lot more money to do that. But I'm really excited about giving away a lot of money every year for the rest of my life.

[A]

But what I, what I appreciate about your approach is that you put, you sold your business and then you put a percentage of that money back into the industry. Like you're furthering what helped create the value to begin with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I have a problem when people, they make a bunch of money and then it leaves forever. They go, like, they go, JP Morgan calls them and is like, yeah, we need you. You know, we need this perfect investment strategy and this and that. And they build these, you know, trusts and they go invest in real estate and it's like, do all that stuff. But I feel like a certain percentage should go back to what created the value to begin with. That's what I struggle with sometimes. Like. Like what I really appreciated, you know. John, John Moyna, mts, He put on this unbelievable event for the century of Caterpillar.

[B]

Yeah. Why?

[A]

It wasn't to promote MTs. It wasn't to promote Moyna or even Caterpillar. It wasn't to promote Caterpillar. Caterpillar didn't want anything to do with it, which was crazy to me. It was just genuinely to celebrate the industry that's given him so much. And, and they had thousands of people, kids and families.

[B]

Yeah. Which included Caterpillar. Right. Like, because they manufactured for Caterpillar. Yes, many years. So yes, it was cool.

[A]

But it was, it was, to me, it was just so profound. Like, why would someone spend so much money and time on something that doesn't give them a return? It's like. That's the whole point. Yeah, that's the whole point. Like, they're, they're investing in the industry and like, what created the wealth to begin with. And so that to me is like, doesn't that make sense? That's how we build a better future. We don't build a better future by these guys that don't have a succession plan selling and then just leaving. Like, it's the same principle that we were just talking about with, with the previous generation not handing their knowledge down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I think anybody leaving the industry financially forever really hinders the industry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It really sets us back in a way. And I'm not here to tell someone what to do with their money, but

[B]

it's like if you aggregated a lot of wealth from the industry be. Find a way to keep the industry healthy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, isn't that like, isn't that step one from a, like a giving back standpoint? Like, wouldn't I start with what created the value to begin with? Even if I wanted to go do other stuff?

[B]

For me, it's like stewardship. And I. Stewardship's a word I think about a lot because I think it applies to all parts of our lives, including your business. Like, so you have stewardship over your business. You need to do that well. But then if you do well there, don't you have some stewardship over the industry? Yeah. And so, you know, can you think of like stewardship as spoken of in the Bible? And it's like, okay, so you know, do I take all of these sheep and just kill them off completely? Like, no, that's not good stewardship. Like, you need to make sure that your flock is healthy and that looks much different than harvesting them completely. And so I can see where you're coming from. And it doesn't have to be that they go invest in something in a crazy way, but just find a way to continue to give back to the industry and the community that got them where they're at. That's good stewardship.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't want to take away. Building a business is part of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's certainly a part of it. But I just, I see so many, especially not even in this industry, but just like wealthy people in general, like, they go invest in these far off ventures which again, great. You want to go, you want to go solve problems in Africa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fantastic. But like, but what about your city? What about your community? What about the business world in which created that to begin with? And it's like, it's just so often forgotten. And I say that too from like a. The United States is not leading the pack anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're falling down the list every year and the government's not coming to help us. And maybe that would be great. I don't think we can do it without the government, but it's like it's partially our responsibility to just even ensure our communities are up to, up to par. And our communities are places that we want our kids to have families within.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think private enterprise has a, has a responsibility in that it's not just the government's problem.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even, like, I feel like we could go down like this really long rabbit hole so we can. I want to be careful. I will tell you. I have recently just been aware as there continues to be more and more light shone on the fraud that has existed in the US I have found myself just, like, being worried about. Where money goes. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's good that it's being exposed because fraud is wasteful and it's not good stewardship. But it also has created. And I think probably I'm not the only one, but it's created like, this bit of skepticism with the system. Even when I go to donate now, how do I make sure that where I donate, the money's going where I expect it to go?

[A]

But this is where a lot of people that have made a lot of money have no sense of creativity whatsoever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have not created anything in the world. And so they're. The easiest thing to do is just send a bunch of money somewhere. Just checks, just take the money. So a lot of people do.

[B]

Yeah, like, time and talents is probably more important than.

[A]

Yeah, but there's. There's like. I feel like there's an intentionality and. And I'm saying I'm an asshole. Like, I don't. I still don't have much money to my name, so maybe this is. I'm singing a different tune, you know, whenever. Whenever that day comes. I don't think I will, though, because I've been around it enough to understand it at that high level. Like, I think you can. You can build a family office that just, you know, gives back in a more simplistic way. Or I think you can. You can truly create with that giving, if that makes sense. Like, there's more intentionality to it. There's more meaning to it. There's more creativity to it thought to it. Like, I think. I think there's multiple ways to give. And I think people think it's just this one way that is write checks, which. And the money, who the hell knows where it goes? And even, like, you know, they were talking recently about they got this grant, a few million dollars for mental health and construction. But then it was like 25% went to administration and they said that. And I even had pause with that. I was like, 25% went. Goes to administrative. What does that even mean? Like, what does that mean? And then where does the rest go? Like, where does that money even go? That's great. There's this headline figure that's like millions, but what are we getting for the millions? Like, I can do more with the millions for mental health, I could just give it to me. I could do a lot more. And I'm sure. I mean, that's what charlatans say. So maybe that's me But I'm just like. I don't know, Maybe you get what I'm getting at.

[B]

Yeah. I think what you're saying is, like, you know, for these people who make a living, a good one in construction, giving back doesn't necessarily have to be writing a check.

[A]

No. And I don't think it should. In a lot of cases.

[B]

It could just be as simple as staying connected to the industry and continuing to mentor. Like you said, Herb's doing a great job of that.

[A]

Great job.

[B]

And many more. Continue to love and support the communities that helped you get there. I think Wilford Clyde does a really good job of that. He's doing a great job of supporting the Utah community and staying active in the community. I think the frustration is when people get millions and then they kind of abandon their communities and become world travelers and aren't giving back. Because that's not good stewardship. Good stewardship is making sure the communities and the people that are around you are set up for better life. Like, there's that Maori saying that's like, plant a tree that you'll never see the shade whose shade you'll never sit under.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we need to make sure that we're planting seeds for the future generation and people who leave the industry and forget about. It doesn't do that.

[A]

No. No, it doesn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You could argue it sets us back, which. And. And I. I want them to remain more than anybody. Like, those are the people we need the most, I feel like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we can wrap it up there, I guess.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

It's almost noon. This was good.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

I don't know if we solved anything, but we certainly discussed things. Thanks for stopping by. Glad you were here.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We'll do it again.

[B]

Yeah, I'll try and do it once a quarter.

[A]

Yeah. This is good.