Spotlighting the Trades w/ Josh Mellot – DT 290

Summary

Detailed Summary of Dirt Talk Podcast Episode DT 290: "Spotlighting the Trades w/ Josh Mellot"

Release Date: November 21, 2024

Introduction

In episode DT 290 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron Witt engages in an in-depth conversation with Josh Mellot, exploring various facets of the trades industry. The episode delves into personal experiences, business management, company culture, and the integration of creative endeavors within the trades sector. Throughout the discussion, Aaron and Josh provide valuable insights, practical advice, and candid reflections on their journeys in the world of construction and business ownership.

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1. Sponsorship and Gear Essentials

Starting at [00:00]

Aaron opens the episode by acknowledging Ariat, the official sponsor of Dirt Talk. He emphasizes the importance of high-quality workwear, especially during the cold winter months. Aaron shares his experience of waking up to 17-degree weather and the necessity of reliable outerwear to ensure work continuity.

Notable Quote:

• [00:00] A: “But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up.”

---

2. Personal Preferences and Professional Gear

Discussion between [00:56] and [02:15]

Aaron and Josh delve into their preferences for watches, highlighting the significance of reliable timepieces in the trades. Josh expresses his appreciation for Hamilton watches, a tradition he maintains by gifting them to apprentices in his electrical company.

Notable Quotes:

• [00:56] B: “I like high quality watches. So, like I grew up, which I appreciate, in Lancaster and Hamilton's pretty famous.”
• [02:02] A: “Yeah, most of them are kind of douchey.”

Key Points:

• Importance of durable, functional watches in the trades.
• Preference for smaller watch sizes to maintain comfort and practicality on job sites.

---

3. The Value of Punctuality and Communication

From [03:14] to [06:12]

The conversation shifts to the importance of punctuality, a value ingrained in them from childhood. Both emphasize how being consistently on time fosters trust and reliability in professional settings. They also discuss the challenges of modern distractions, such as excessive phone usage during meetings and family interactions.

Notable Quotes:

• [04:05] A: “Fuck, we would get laid into, man.”
• [04:07] B: “If you're on time, you're late.”
• [05:15] A: “That’s why everybody communicates differently from a leader's perspective.”

Key Points:

• Punctuality as a cornerstone of professionalism.
• Strategies to utilize waiting time productively, like carrying a book.
• Challenges posed by digital distractions in maintaining effective communication.

---

4. Working in Cold Environments and Gear Adaptations

Between [06:12] and [10:27]

Josh reminisces about his early experiences working in extreme cold, particularly in wastewater treatment, where inadequate gear posed significant challenges. Both Aaron and Josh discuss the evolution of workwear, highlighting advancements like insulated boots that keep workers dry and warm even in harsh conditions.

Notable Quotes:

• [07:32] A: “Now, with social media, everybody's like, oh, well, you know, five degrees, that's not even that cold.”
• [08:12] B: “They were like 10 cents apiece. I was like, we could make some money.”

Key Points:

• Importance of appropriate gear in maintaining productivity and safety in cold climates.
• Personal anecdotes about overcoming gear-related challenges on job sites.
• Evolution of workwear technology to better suit the needs of tradespeople.

---

5. Business Management and the Journey to Ownership

From [10:37] to [29:05]

Josh shares his journey from being an apprentice to becoming a business owner. He reflects on the mentorship from his father, who instilled a strong work ethic and the value of earning money through effort. The discussion covers the intricacies of managing a growing business, maintaining company culture, and the emotional challenges of letting employees go.

Notable Quotes:

• [11:12] B: “My dad would always say, well, if you want something, then you need to earn money for it.”
• [25:26] B: “I have to figure out the differences in how you communicate with different people.”
• [40:46] B: “The best advice I ever got was this old timer... you can live on your base paycheck. Why change it?”

Key Points:

• Transition from apprentice to business owner, emphasizing the importance of mentorship and a strong work ethic.
• Challenges of scaling a business while preserving company culture and efficiency.
• The difficult but necessary process of laying off employees to sustain business health.
• Strategies for maintaining consistency and effective communication within a growing team.

---

6. Company Culture, Turnover, and Scaling Challenges

Between [29:05] and [57:03]

Aaron and Josh delve deeper into the complexities of scaling a business. They discuss how rapid growth can dilute company culture and lead to inefficiencies. Josh shares his experiences with high turnover rates and the emotional toll of having to let employees go, stressing the importance of honest communication and maintaining trust within the team.

Notable Quotes:

• [40:37] A: “But when you’re working overtime, rate work... it’s quite hard.”
• [55:44] B: “You can’t have some degree of turnover... but you're working to run yourself out of a job.”
• [57:03] B: “If you think that way, it’s going to rush you to it.”

Key Points:

• The impact of rapid growth on company culture and the necessity of being deliberate in maintaining core values.
• Emotional and operational challenges associated with employee turnover.
• The balance between business sustainability and employee well-being.
• The role of transparency and consistency in fostering a trustworthy and resilient company culture.

---

7. Integrating Creativity with Trades: Launching Blackline

From [57:03] to [85:01]

The conversation transitions to the establishment of Blackline, a creative arm launched to enhance the perception of the trades industry. Aaron and Josh discuss the motivations behind integrating creative efforts with their construction business, aiming to authentically represent the realities of working in the trades and attract like-minded individuals who value honesty and consistency.

Notable Quotes:

• [78:02] A: “We do what you say you will do.”
• [82:04] A: “I've never had a thought about you yet. You’re watching me every day. Love it.”
• [84:25] B: “Blackline started in 2021... tell people stories so that we could kind of lift the view of the trades.”

Key Points:

• The rationale behind creating a creative company to authentically showcase the trades industry.
• Challenges of merging creative endeavors with traditional construction work.
• The importance of storytelling in changing perceptions and attracting the right talent.
• The role of transparency and authentic communication in building a positive industry image.

---

8. Safety, Communication, and Industry Perceptions

Between [85:01] and [100:38]

Aaron and Josh tackle the often-contentious topic of safety within the trades. They critique superficial safety measures that fail to empower individuals, arguing that true safety comes from personal responsibility and effective communication. The discussion highlights the disconnect between corporate safety policies and on-the-ground realities, emphasizing the need for genuine safety practices that respect workers' autonomy.

Notable Quotes:

• [97:04] A: “Safety is not the priority.”
• [98:33] B: “The best advice I ever got was... your safety is your responsibility.”
• [100:17] A: “Therefore, it is regarding Mr. Corporate Safety Guy...”

Key Points:

• Critique of corporate safety policies that undermine personal responsibility.
• The importance of individual accountability in maintaining safety on job sites.
• The negative impact of rigid safety measures on worker morale and productivity.
• The necessity for authentic safety practices that are respected and followed by all team members.

---

9. Authenticity, Transparency, and Marketing in the Trades

From [100:38] to [123:07]

The final segment focuses on the role of authenticity and transparency in marketing within the trades industry. Aaron and Josh advocate for honest representations of the daily realities in construction, arguing that genuine storytelling is more effective than polished, misleading portrayals. They discuss the benefits of this approach in attracting dedicated and like-minded individuals, while also addressing the challenges of balancing transparency with company image management.

Notable Quotes:

• [106:34] B: “Black line podcast is all it’s about is having real and honest conversations like we would have on the job with real people.”
• [112:00] A: “I, I think, you know, this whole industry doesn't create any value whatsoever, and I'm making all this money, but I am completely miserable.”
• [118:33] B: “We try to train our people, and even our people that come to work with us, they want to lift the view of the skilled trades.”

Key Points:

• The power of authentic storytelling in changing industry perceptions and attracting talent.
• Challenges of maintaining transparency without causing panic or damaging the company's reputation.
• The role of podcasts and other creative mediums in fostering honest and meaningful conversations.
• Balancing marketing efforts with genuine representations to build trust and credibility.

---

Conclusions and Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Aaron and Josh emphasize the importance of consistency, honesty, and effective communication in both personal conduct and business practices. They advocate for a realistic portrayal of the trades industry, highlighting the challenges and rewards inherent in the work. By integrating creative efforts with traditional construction, they aim to elevate the industry's image and attract individuals who value authenticity and dedication.

Notable Quote:

• [122:35] B: “If you’re going to manufacture something that isn’t there, you’re not going to succeed.”

Key Takeaways:

• Building a successful trade business requires more than technical expertise; it demands strong leadership, consistent values, and a commitment to authentic communication.
• Transparency and honesty are crucial in fostering trust within the team and with clients, ultimately leading to sustained business growth.
• Integrating creative endeavors can enhance the industry's image, making it more appealing to the next generation of tradespeople.

---

Final Quote:

• [123:07] B: “Thanks, man.”

End of Summary

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This episode of Dirt Talk provides a comprehensive exploration of the trades industry from both a practical and philosophical standpoint. Aaron Witt and Josh Mellot offer listeners valuable insights into effective business management, the importance of authentic communication, and the transformative potential of integrating creativity with traditional trades. Whether you're a seasoned professional or new to the industry, the lessons shared in this episode are both enlightening and actionable.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor. And at this point we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest work wear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, Ariat.com dirt talk. That is Ariat.com dirt talk. I'm not really a fancy watch guy.

[B]

I'm. I like high quality watches. So, like, I grew up, which I appreciate, in Lancaster and Hamilton's pretty famous. So all of our apprentices in our electrical company, when they graduate, they get a Hamilton watch just because it kind of is a. And Hamilton makes. That's why I asked what you were wearing there, because they are famous for their military watches.

[A]

Like Jackie. Yeah, yeah, I just. And I like small watches too. It's really hard to find a small men's watch. This is a. I think it's a 34 millimeter.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That's small.

[A]

Yeah, I don't like. I mean, some of these, like, that's probably what, 40, 42 maybe?

[B]

It's probably bigger.

[A]

47.

[B]

47.

[A]

Yeah. My preference, I just like the small ones. But then, yeah, when I wear the.

[B]

Small watches, for whatever reason, my wrists, it makes me look weird.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, I feel weird when I have a big one. So this watch too, I don't have to worry about it. I can go to job sites or do whatever and travel. I don't worry about it. If it gets stolen, you know, it is what it is. Go just go get another one.

[B]

Well, and if you wear a watch that you know, like a Rolex. I hate Rolex.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's like it has such this Persona that if you wear it, you.

[A]

Know, it is kind of a. And there are some Rolexes that are like properly baller.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But that's not the majority of Rolexes and they make over a million of them a year, so they're not all that rare. And Yeah, I just. Most of them are kind of douchey. Yeah, they're. And it, you know, it's like oftentimes a specific person kind of wearing that, supporting that. Yeah. I give my brother shit because he's a car salesman. Nice. Car salesman. He was at BMW, now he's at Audi.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when he went over to BMW, he was selling. He was at Penske before. So. Pretty blue collar.

[B]

Yeah, I was going to say.

[A]

Yeah. So he goes to BMW and he drives a Toyota. I'm like, tyler, within six months you're going to have a BMW. You're going to have a Rolex. No fucking way that you don't have a Rolex. Within six months. Six months goes by, he has a Rolex, he has a BMW.

[B]

That's hysterical.

[A]

Because I don't think you can be a car salesman without a Rolex. I don't think it works. I think it's like, that's an essential tool, like a carpenter without a hammer.

[B]

I agree, I agree. I love the history of watches as well. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that's one of the things that I love about Hamilton is just the. Like, they started as a railroad watch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were really big on being on time. And so I love the mechanics, I love all of that stuff. And, and there, there are all sorts of different watches. But I actually look more at the history of where it comes from than I do anything else.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what.

[B]

Being punctual is huge for me.

[A]

Oh, it's a big deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, it's, it's huge for. I feel like most people. I think that was one of the. I got to learn a lot of basics from successful people by watching them growing up because they were my friend's dads. Being on time. Yeah, that is like the basic thing. And my dad, he would chew our asses if we were late.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fuck, we would get laid into, man.

[B]

I used to be told that if you were on time, you were late.

[A]

Yeah. That's one of my favorite sayings. If you're on time, you're late.

[B]

My wife and I, we would go to a friend's house or a party or something like that, and she would always get mad. Cause we would try to be late and we would end up showing up right on time just. Cause it's just ingrained in me.

[A]

But that's. See, with parties you can't show up on time. Cause no one's fucking there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so. But that's exactly what I would do. Especially even in college, like, all right, party's starting at 10. It's not really starting till like 11:30.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But I'd be there like 10:05. And it'd be me and whoever else lives at the house that was having the party. And I would just be hanging out.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that movie.

[A]

Yeah. Until. Until it gets to 11:30, 11:45. Everybody's there now, and I'm like, this is too many people. And I would just leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every time like clockwork.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It wasn't. Wasn't for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now I. Some guy, he posted on LinkedIn the other day. I saw they. Carries a book everywhere when he's waiting. And I'm like, oh, man, I need.

[B]

Actually smart.

[A]

I. Cause it makes a book everywhere. Well, yes.

[B]

And you can fill time.

[A]

Yeah. But it helps you fill time if you're early without sitting on your phone fucking off. I can lie to myself all day and say I'm being. I'm getting work done. And sometimes I am, but I'm now starting to carry a book everywhere I go.

[B]

That's actually genius.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that really is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's one of the things I hate. We used to sit, you know, when you would get into like a job trailer before a construction meeting or whatever, you know, we'd have bi weekly meetings. Used to talk with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now when you sit in this meeting.

[A]

Everybody'S on the phone.

[B]

Everybody's on the phone. Nobody talks about anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Unless you're getting yelled at.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Even when I'm with my family, like, I have to make a point of it. Like, hey, can everybody just put their. Their phones over here? Or last week I took some time off and I would just leave my phones because I can't. I talked to Randy about it last night. It's like, if I bring them, I'm thinking about them. Oh. So I just leave them now. Just forget about them. And it's. It's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'm going to. Can we move this a little bit?

[B]

Yeah, whatever you want.

[A]

If it gets warm in here, let me know too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I can turn the air conditioning down sometimes. Right now it's the weird. The weird time of the year. Like, you want the AC on sometimes, but then you want the heat on sometimes, but then you want the AC on sometimes. And you can't really figure out which is which.

[B]

I know my.

[A]

It just got cold today in Nashville.

[B]

I love it. I love the cold, so. I love that it's cold today when I'm here. Ah. I'm weird like that.

[A]

Yeah. I'm the other way around.

[B]

I. Some of my favorite jobs that I ever worked on and no one ever believed me and I can't say it anymore because I don't work in the field, but, like, some of my favorite jobs Were when it was, like, down in the teens or even below zero. Like.

[A]

Did you grow up in Pennsylvania?

[B]

I did. I did.

[A]

In the same area.

[B]

In the same area, yeah. Yeah. And so we would do. The company that I started working for, we did a lot of wastewater treatment work. And so I can remember being, you know, it was like early January, and It was like 5 degrees, and then with the wind chill, and we would be working out on, like, a wet well or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, it's doing control work.

[B]

And. And it's like we literally would get in and out of the truck to warm our hands. Because you couldn't wear gloves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah. Now. Well, now with social media, everybody's like, oh, well, you know, five degrees, that's not even that cold. Like, oh, what about, you know, us up in Alberta? We do. Minus 100.

[B]

Well, that's why I don't talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody's trying to outdo each other. When it's. When it's cold, it's like. I don't know. I mean, that's properly cold.

[B]

Well, I just. My favorite is when it's cold enough and you gotta be equipped for it. You gotta have the right gear.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

When I was an apprentice, I had, you know, bibs. I had all this stuff. And so it was like. And I had spent tons of money. Dude, your feet are the most important thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I spent more money than I ever thought I ever would on boots. And I had a pair of. Well, I won't say the brand, because if anybody criticizes it, I would just. I don't know if I'd be able to survive that.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

But Red Wing. I would have a pair of Red Wings.

[A]

Were they insulated?

[B]

They were insulated. And it was. At this point in time, it was pretty new. They had this waterproof technology that my feet could still breathe. And so I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

[A]

So you don't get all sweaty in there?

[B]

Yeah, you don't get all sweaty. I can remember standing in a manhole for a wire pole, and my boots were totally covered in water and my feet were dry. And I thought it was the coolest thing ever.

[A]

Yeah, so it's. I go back. I. When I'm home, I typically wear, like, tennis shoes, like running shoes. Cause they're just more comfortable walking around, doing so many. Cause I walk a lot. Especially when I'm on the phone. I just go do laps in the parking lot, and they're a lot more comfortable. But then I'll, like, walk around in some dirt or mud and then remember, like, oh, fuck, I have tennis shoes on. Like, I need to be careful where I'm walking. Cause I'm. And then, like, most of the time, I have boots on and you can just go anywhere.

[B]

You just go anywhere.

[A]

You don't have to care at all with what your concrete, mud, water, it doesn't matter. You can just walk through it. Yeah, yeah. I. When we went to Alberta a few years ago in January, that was what. That was one of their tips before going. Because I'm a Phoenix. Boy.

[B]

Yeah, Phoenix. I've been there for the first time ever this year, and it is very different than anywhere else I've ever been.

[A]

It's a lot different. Yeah. So I didn't. I didn't grow up around cold. I never. I've never lived in cold until I moved to Nashville. And it's not even that cold here. No, it's not. It snows once a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's. It's. It's cold. Cold for me. Properly cold. Because when it. In Phoenix in the winter, it's typically like 70 and sunny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

January, February, March. It's gorgeous. But they said if you just dress for it, it's not that bad. So then I learned how to dress for it a little bit better. And it's like, oh, yeah, this actually isn't so bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had. When I went up there, I knew I needed a pair of insulated boots because that was one of the mistakes I made when I went to North Dakota one time in the winter.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

Not insulated boots. And there's no sock that you can wear to keep your feet warm in the snow in zero. Whatever it is below. Then I remembered I had a pair of mountaineering boots from college.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I was like, why don't I just wear these? Wore those. Perfect. Yeah, no problem. Mountaineering, they're like Sportivas.

[B]

So if you keep your feet right on the job, that affects everything.

[A]

Feet, hands, ears.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've got that right, you're good.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely.

[A]

So you. You said earlier this morning your father was tradesman.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

But not electrical.

[B]

Not electrical. He was a carpenter.

[A]

Carpenter, yeah.

[B]

So I grew up. One of my earlier memories. I always wanted to figure out a way to. So we talked about this a little bit. I said, you know, I grew up poor, but I want to be careful because there are definitely people more poor than I was.

[A]

Yeah. In Tommy Toppers. Well, I Was even. I was even more poor. Exactly. Okay, bro.

[B]

But my dad would always say to me, well, if you want something, then you need to earn money for it. And so I remember when I was really young, I would go with him to the job sites, and he'd pay me to clean up, you know, around the job and. But yeah, he was a carpenter by trade, so.

[A]

So he would actually pay you. He didn't just use you as free help, so.

[B]

Or sometimes I negotiated payment plan with a payment with. From him.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because I was already doing it, and so I had to do the free work, and then I had to do work that I would get paid for.

[A]

Okay, I see. Yeah, it was both. Yeah, yeah. If you're getting paid for everything, I wouldn't believe you.

[B]

No, no. I had a certain amount of things that I had to do, and then beyond that, we would call that overtime now. But he just called that when you deserve to get paid.

[A]

Well, and I think no children on job sites is one of the worst things that's happened to the industry. And people. Like, I'm kind of being funny.

[B]

So this isn't a serious podcast.

[A]

No. I'm kind of being funny when I say we should bring back child labor. But it was a. You. You. You ask people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How'd you come up in the trade? I grew up on job sites.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Like, when I talked with Randy, he talked about driving a water truck.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I didn't experience anything like that at 12 years old.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. And. And those are some of people's fondest memories, too. Like, but. And then. And then everybody, they complain when people like me show up on job sites. 18 years old. That's the earliest age you can legally work on a job site nowadays in most places, knowing nothing. Cause it's like, well, I.

[B]

And then we're really frustrated that you don't know anything.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you know how to use a ratchet strap? It's like, bro, I've never been around a ratchet strap. I didn't grow up around it. My parents weren't involved in this work. I have never been on a job site because I needed to legally get here.

[B]

Said your dad was a lawyer. He could have used a ratchet strap for his files or something.

[A]

Anyway, he was not a ratchet strap kind of guy. Let me tell you. Like, I joke saying he'd call somebody to change the light bulb, but it's like, not a joke at the same time. Yeah, he definitely used his Mind more than his hands for his craft.

[B]

That is really ironic that you're doing what you're doing and he would call someone to change a light bulb.

[A]

Yeah, well, I don't claim to be handy though.

[B]

So you call someone to change a light bulb.

[A]

No, I figure that out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

But I can do the basics. I like to be a mildly capable man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, you know my truck tire, find it flat the other day. I can change the tire. It's like, all right, I can do the basics. I can do life. But if it's like, I could probably replace a switch maybe or a socket in my house.

[B]

That sounds like a challenge. I think I'm gonna come over to your place and we'll.

[A]

No, I think, I think I could do that. But beyond that, I wouldn't try to do myself.

[B]

Do you know the difference between a three way switch and a single pole switch?

[A]

Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope.

[B]

You're screwed.

[A]

No, I could replace an existing.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

With a new one. Because then I'd have the. I'd have the puzzle figured out and I have like the picture on the box.

[B]

It seems very methodical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you remind me of one of those guys. I remember coming up in the trades guy would take something apart and he would like mark everything. So he knew exactly where. Like, he took his time and did it right. And actually ended up being faster than some of the other guys. Cause he was methodical about it.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. Even like keeping track of where you leave your screws and shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you take something apart. Okay, I'm gonna lay it out so that I'm not looking all over for that. All right, where's the. Where's the last one? Like, I knew, I knew I had four of them. I only have three. Where'd the last one go? It's like, well, I'm just gonna lay them out so I have them. We're good.

[B]

Have you seen, like, the technology and some of the gear that's coming out is ridiculous. I saw a guy on a job site the other day. He was wearing this wrist thing and it was magnetic.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

And he just threw the screws on it.

[A]

That's pretty cool.

[B]

And they just hung on it. So he had him right there. And I was like, where was that?

[A]

That's actually like, some of the stuff's pretty gimmicky, but stuff like that's like. Ah, yeah. Or even the magnet. Like the magnets they have in tools nowadays.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like just the Magnetic screwdrivers. Like how just wildly helpful that is. It's game changer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When did you officially enter the world of the trades? Oh, right after high school.

[B]

I actually was still in high school.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I. The trades were. I entered them solely for the reason not to be in them.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, I grew up. Dad was a carpenter. And, you know, if my dad's listening to this, I had a great life. But when I was young, I didn't think I had a great life.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so I would just say I wanted a different life. And I didn't see that doing the same thing that my dad was doing was going to give me that. And I grew up, all of my friends, you know, and everybody that talked, it was like, oh, your dad's a carpenter. Oh, your dad's a carpenter. You know, oh, you work in construction. It was like you were looked down on. And so I viewed getting into the trades and getting into construction as my way out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it was something that I knew.

[A]

And you make some money and then be on your way.

[B]

So I had a desire. I wanted to do a certain thing with my life, and it was really expensive to do that. And so what was that? Well, I wanted to be a pilot.

[A]

Oh, okay. That is expensive.

[B]

Yeah, it was. And my dad had always said, well, if you want to do something and we don't have the money for it, then go get a job and figure out how to do it. So I've had jobs well before. Legally allowed to multiple different ones. You know, I can remember I negotiated buying a paper route from a guy because I wasn't old enough to do the paper route. And so I said, I'll do all the work for you if you give me this much money, less than what you're getting paid to do it. But, you know, you can take 5 or 10% off the top, but then I take everything else.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so. Cause I wasn't legally old enough to do the work.

[A]

How old did you have to be to have paperwork?

[B]

You were supposed to be 12 years old.

[A]

12.

[B]

And I did it for two years that way. And I can remember I was sitting at home and I was telling my mom, I need to make money. I need to make money. Cause I wanted to be able to do certain things. And so I went to the neighbor kid and I made that proposal. So if you needed to be 12, that would've made me nine. So did that for a couple of years and then stopped. And it worked out really well. He got used to getting money for not doing any work. And so then when I stopped doing it for just a little bit, he's like, ah, this sucks. So he just quit. So then I took his route, and then.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And then I did that same thing. I got other paper routes as well and then built it to a point that I was making pretty good money.

[A]

Huh. Were you just doing it on a bicycle?

[B]

Yeah, I was just doing it on a bicycle. But then I got so many that I actually remember we were poor and my parents were kind, so I started paying them to drive me because I had gotten some additional routes where it was like the Sunday paper, which is, like, obnoxious. And so it would come in three different deliveries, and you'd have to put it together so the paper was, like, 2 inches thick.

[A]

So you couldn't carry. You couldn't carry it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You needed.

[B]

I would pay their gas, and then I would give them a piece of the pie as well.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But it wasn't worth. I don't think they did it because they wanted the money. I think they did it because it was my idea.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Which is cool, because even having parents that support you, I think is so. I don't know. My parents have always supported me, so I've taken it for granted. But I've realized a lot of parents don't support people. Yeah. Especially when they try to go outside of the box.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, it's. It's. That's. That can be tough.

[B]

So I think my parents were not only really supportive in that way, but I don't know if they knew what to do with me, because from a very young age, we live in a. Like a farm town, like Amish country. And when I grew up, there's a farmer's market where they would sell animals and things like that, and we would go there. That was the fun thing to do. And I forget how old I was. I was probably, like 8 years old. And I remember I was there with my dad, and they were auctioning off animals, and so there were all these little ducklings. And I had heard this guy talking, and I knew that people paid money to eat ducks, and so they're auctioning them off, and it was like, oh, they were like, 10 cents apiece. I was like.

[A]

I went over calculating how many ducks you.

[B]

I was literally. I went over to my dad and I said, listen, if we buy this many ducks and I raise them, and then we can sell them for, like, 30 or $40 a duck, and I was like, we could make some money. And so my dad gave me, like five bucks. I bought a ridiculous amount of ducks.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So the wine wasn't even drawn at ducks?

[B]

No.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's more productive, though. But that. That, like, they were cleaning the stalls.

[B]

With the ducks with me.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That.

[A]

Every parent will tell you. Yeah. If you. If they. If your kids conned you into getting an animal, you're going to be the one taking care of.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

They are not going to be the one taking care of.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you actually sell the ducks?

[B]

I did, but when you're. When you're 8 or 9 years old, the pity factor, I don't have that anymore. When I try to sell people things, they're like, no.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's usually the answer that I got. Yeah. But I did. I sold the ducks. If you calculated all the work and all the time that we put into the work, I don't know if we made money, but it was a very valuable lesson for sure. And it was just more money that I was able to then put away to put into the next thing.

[A]

So was that the driver for money, or were you buying toys and stuff too along the way?

[B]

So the original driver was. All my friends had a Nintendo. Yeah, that was the thing.

[A]

Yeah. I knew there was something.

[B]

It's really interesting because when you look back what a Nintendo cost then and what it costs now, I don't know that it correlates, because it was a lot of money back then. And so I had gotten all the money saved up, but then I couldn't let it go. So I actually never got a Nintendo.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I was like, it cost this much money. And I knew what that money cost. That money cost shoveling duck shit, which is pretty nasty. That cost, you know, having to, like, my dad didn't let me out of anything. So when it came time to butcher the ducks, he's like, here's an ax. Like, I mean, I. I had to go through all of it now.

[A]

Yeah. You wanted ducks, huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, yeah, we plucked them. We, you know, we did all of it. And it was cool. Some of the other community came over and helped, like, when we did that. So it was like, I didn't do all the work myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I knew what that money was worth. And when it came time to be like, I still remember, like, all right, okay, we can go buy Nintendo. And I looked at the money and I looked at the Nintendo and I looked at the money and I was like, I can't do It.

[A]

And that's a. I think that's a lesson I learned when I was in Montana, is the value of a dollar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember my friend's dad talking a lot about that, like, just understanding the value of a dollar. And when you have to work hard for that dollar. Yeah. You don't want to part ways with it nearly as quickly. I mean. Well, some people part ways with it pretty quickly, no matter how hard they are. Again. But it is quite interesting if you have to really work for it. It's like, why would I do that? Let me just keep it going. Let me just use that money to make more money.

[B]

Well, and technology, even tricks you. At least it does me into letting go of it easier.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, when I have a wad of cash, which I don't have a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I. When I. I don't typically deal in cash when I'm traveling and whatnot, but when I have a wad of cash and I go out to dinner or something, I watch it get smaller. When I have a credit card, I just tap it.

[A]

It's just magic.

[B]

It's just magic. And it just. I don't even think about it.

[A]

Yeah. So that's what they like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. The Amish country thing is interesting, too, because.

[B]

So you have your keys on the table. Are you going somewhere?

[A]

No, these were. I needed to unlock the bathroom before this. The Amish thing. Yeah. It's quite interesting. The first time, again, kid from Arizona, Scottsdale. I thought that was the world. And then I started really seeing the world in college. And then when I started build with traveling all over and some of the first work I was doing was in Pennsylvania. So the first time I went to go to Pennsylvania was for mushlets, which was out of Allentown.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I think bath, technically, I know that is. And then we started working with Berg out of. You said Morgantown. I didn't remember the town, but that's Morgantown. So we stayed. I feel like it was like Honeybrook maybe.

[B]

Yeah, that would be.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So we stayed in a Airbnb.

[B]

Well, you were in the heart of Amish country, man.

[A]

It was so Amish because it was this little farmhouse. Airbnb in beautiful farm country signed me up. And then we. The moment we get into the Airbnb, you hear the clock, clock, clock, clock, clock down this, down the street. You're like, what is that? You look out the window and it's like three kids in a carriage and a horse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just cruising down the street. Like, what is this place? And then I go for a run. And I remember all of the families working together out in the fields, like, doing whatever they're doing or tending to the house or like, all the families were out and about at their farm farmhouses doing whatever they were doing.

[B]

And probably before you were out and about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, but, but. But I remember running, like, into the evening, so the sun was setting, and it was like the whole family was still out in the farm, out in the field, working.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all the clothes were hung up outside the house. No washer and dryer. The tractors and stuff had different kinds of wheels because I think some can use rubber, some can't use rubber, but.

[B]

A lot of rubber is sinful. I don't know why, but it is.

[A]

And so you'll have skid steers with steel wheels or tractors with steel wheels, which is crazy.

[B]

Fascinating. That's not normal to you. I literally grew up with that.

[A]

But that's the world you grew up in. But from. From an outside perspective, and I think this was in 2020, too. So this was when we were driving around the United States. We stayed out there. And so it was May of 2020, like peak Covid. Everybody losing their minds. I'm running around this place.

[B]

All the Amish didn't care.

[A]

These people, they don't even know. Like, they don't care. They don't know. They're just doing life like they were doing it six months ago.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Nothing has changed for these people, which just blew me away. And it's that whole area. It's not like this. I stayed in the one Amish neighborhood. I mean, a lot of that area. Oh, yeah.

[B]

When you talk about the value of a dollar, they have money. They understand the value of a dollar.

[A]

I've heard they've got some coins.

[B]

Oh, they do.

[A]

Yeah. I've heard that.

[B]

One of my jobs when I was young, I worked for an Amishman, and his house burned down. And it was the most fascinating thing I ever saw. Their insurance is they all come together. And so if your house burns down, the entire community comes together and they just rebuild his house.

[A]

And it's like 100 guys show up and they build it like that. I've seen videos of it.

[B]

Stream Home Makeover Edition. Amish crazy. I mean, it was like, yeah, it's insane. I remember talking with him, and he had some deer rifles and things like that that got burned up. He's like, oh, well, the insurance. This is not what they're called. But he's like the insurance bishop is coming over. And it was the bishop. And he would decide, okay, what guns did you have? Okay, here's some money. Go buy yourself new guns. They just all came together as unity.

[A]

Like self insured.

[B]

Yeah, very much, Very much.

[A]

My favorite Amish fact I learned I stayed in another house in that area and it had like a calendar that was different carriages, you know, so, so, you know, January.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Check out this carriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

February. Check out this carriage. Like, whoa, this carriage looks pretty slick. And I started, I think I put it on the Internet and then somebody started telling me how expensive some of these carriages are. Like well into six figures.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some of these things and they don't. They. It looks like it's straight out of 1800, but apparently they spend some money on these horse drawn carriages that they cruise around in all around town.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you talk about your. I think you were talking earlier about your brother being a car dealer. I had a friend who I grew up with, and sometimes the Amish decided to no longer be part of the community. And he would have some young Amish come in and it's like, I want to buy that $60,000, you know, Ford F250 or 80,000, whatever it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they would literally just plop down the cash.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and he's like, they probably don't have even like a bank or anything.

[B]

I don't know how they do that. But they, they, they have coin, that's for sure.

[A]

It, you know, it kind of makes you wonder, like they didn't, they didn't.

[B]

Buy the Nintendo either.

[A]

Well, yeah, yeah, well. But it makes, yeah, they can't. I don't know if they, they can really have one, but they, it makes you wonder, though. It's like, because you kind of look at them, you're like, oh, man, they don't even know what modern life is like. And you kind of, in a way, like in a, in an ignorant sense, pity them. But then pretty quickly, if you're mildly intelligent, you realize maybe they're the ones that have it figured out and I'm the asshole because I'm in this rat race over there, over here, and they're just out in the field with their family, just living Life. Maybe in 2020, May 2020, just doing what they do.

[B]

Yeah. They weren't affected at all. And it is crazy the way that they work. I will say, when I worked for an Amish man, it was over the summer and they needed. We were bailing hay and whenever they would go away or something. I would take care of the cows as well, but we would work through the day. They know how to do it. Like, lunchtime was like Thanksgiving at my house, but that was every day for them. They work like crazy. I mean, it was such hard work. And they probably were laughing at me because it was, like. Matter of fact, I was so weak as a young boy, I couldn't keep up with the hay bales coming onto the thing. So the Amishman that I worked for got so frustrated, he literally put me on the team of mules that were pulling the equipment. And that was pretty scary. A team of 12 mules. I think I was 13.

[A]

That's another thing. They plow their fields using mules. I saw that a bunch, too. It's like, this is crazy.

[B]

Don't tell anybody. But it's really easy because the mules, they knew exactly what they were doing. They didn't even need.

[A]

They've done it so many times.

[B]

They didn't even need me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's. There's no death issues or anything with. With mules. So you go through a bunch, do a bunch of stuff, make some money as a kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then high school, you become a tradesman, an electrician.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I needed something to pay for flight school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I started into. A friend of mine, his family had this electrical company, had a really good reputation, and they did, like, government work, so. Like, airports and wastewater treatment plants. So we weren't doing, like, houses and things like that. And honestly, for the first part of my career, I thought electricians just bent conduit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, Like. Yeah, yeah. Strip some wires and, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, screw them into the socket, like I was talking about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It was very fascinating. The first wire pool that I was involved with, guy came over with a vacuum cleaner, a big Greenlee vacuum cleaner. Like, in the electrical world, that's the brand. And then he had a box of mice. That's what we called them, which is a lot like the microphone thing here is a piece of foam that had a wire through it. And then it had an eyelet on either side, and you'd tie a string to it. And the different sizes of mice would match the conduit, the inner wall diameter. And so you'd set that on there. And then you'd take a vacuum, giving away all of our secrets here, and just suck it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you could suck at 1500ft.

[A]

No shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a bank.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was awesome.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

We would also have some Fun with that because you might do a job. You put conduit underground and everything. And over time, electrical conduit condensates. It's not necessarily waterproof. So water can get in that conduit and lay there and you know, I told you I like working in the cold. So one January, they sent me out. I opened up a box that had all these stub ups in it. My foreman's on the radio. He was like, hey, do you see the mouse yet? And I had put the mouse on there. And I'm like, it's not working. Vacuums have this feature on Greenlease where you can either suck or blow. And so I'm waiting and I'm looking at the mouse. I'm like, what's going on? And he had put the blower on because he knew that the water was in the pipe and it was full of water. And yeah, I got showered with I don't forget how many gallons of water in like mid January. And they thought it was hysterical.

[A]

I had to work the rest of.

[B]

The day freezing my ass off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The. What happens in Arizona is the gotta watch out for the water cart guy. Is a water cart guy. If you're not paying attention, you're getting a shower or if they're not paying attention, you're getting a shower, like you're, you're, you're going to get wet. But it's actually.

[B]

Water cart guy.

[A]

Yeah, it's. They, they use like big water poles, so they're a scraper front. But these big 6,000, 8,000 gallon tanks that they pull around these big earthwork sites.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So they're just. Because you have to. This is foreign to some people, like in the Southeast, for example. But you have to add water just nonstop to everything in Arizona. I believe that it doesn't compact and it's raw.

[B]

Dead.

[A]

Yeah. So every earthwork project has water truck, but if not like a water pole, water cart. And yeah, I'd get, I get wet from that all the time. But it was actually kind of nice when it's hot.

[B]

I was gonna say, you know, January is different than Phoenix.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Arizona at any time.

[A]

It's not, it's not the worst. Yeah. It just depends where the water's coming from.

[B]

I didn't mind working in the cold, but I didn't like being wet in the cold.

[A]

Oh, that's miserable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, how much, how expensive was flight school? Did you know that or were you just like, no, it's expensive.

[B]

It cost me back then for what I wanted to do. I think it was like, $15,000.

[A]

So that's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's a lot of money, but that's not nearly what it is now.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, if you want to be a pilot now, good luck, dude.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's. It's wildly expensive. Well.

[B]

And honestly, so it took a few years, and as I went through that process, I began to fall in love with the people that I worked with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that sounds weird to say it that way. I wasn't in love with you, Chris, but I enjoyed what we did because of who was there, not because of what we were doing.

[A]

Yeah. So was it at a certain point, you're just like, all right, pilot thing out, or was it just gradually. It just gradually eroded?

[B]

Well, the deal was I couldn't make the money being a pilot that I was making being an electrician. Now I was really, go figure fortunate that the company that I worked for, we did a lot of government work. You know, I mean, it depends on. You can make a wide range of money in the trades, depending on what you're working in. And for me, it was very, very good in the type of work that we were doing. You know, I. I worked for a contractor that we. We might be on an airport project or a treatment plant project. And so it was all rate work. And so I just treated rate work. I mean, I was a kid. I was young and single, and so I just acted like it was the same as my shop rate, which was nothing compared to the rate. And so I just would bank that money away. Like, I didn't drive a big, nice truck or anything like that. I drove like a pos. Little Volkswagen Rabbit.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It was diesel, though.

[A]

Oh, that's nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's one thing that every other country other than America has figured out is the diesel thing. Diesels are so much better. That's why it's like, why are we messing around with these EVs when these. These diesel. Like these new diesel. We had a bunch of diesel cars out in Europe rentals. They're so efficient. Yeah, they're so good. Like, these diesel Volkswagens now are so good on.

[B]

Back then, I would get over 50 miles to my little tank.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

And the car was as old as I was. It was from the early 80s, and it had a gazillion miles on it, and it was still gone.

[A]

You were probably driving a lot, I take it, to get out to some of these jobs.

[B]

Yeah, it was very far.

[A]

Yeah. So it was.

[B]

It would be nothing to drive an Hour or two hours.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One way.

[B]

One way.

[A]

Yeah. Because it was probably what typically closer to the city.

[B]

It would depend. Some. Some treatment plants. They were definitely closer to the city, but some of them weren't right in the city. But some of them were.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

And then you. The closer you get to the city, more traffic there is.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's brutal.

[B]

It's crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like traffic.

[A]

I don't. I don't. I don't like going around Philly, honestly, because it's just. It's always a mess. It seems like.

[B]

Well, and on the east coast, we drive a little different than they do everywhere else.

[A]

And it's just.

[B]

We drive angry.

[A]

Yeah. Which. Which I can appreciate because if you like. The first time I drove in New York City, I had to meet people where they are, which is get really angry and just swear a bunch. And then driving in New York makes perfect sense if you're just super angry, just hate everybody. You're like, I get it now.

[B]

And drive like you don't care if you're going to hit the drive.

[A]

Exactly. Drive like you don't. You don't care if you're going to hit pad pedestrians. You don't care if you're going to hit bicycles, other people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything's fair game.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it actually works quite well.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

It is. What I was in during my brief stint in construction. It is interesting, too, how, like, my hourly rate wasn't necessarily higher than any of my friends that were working, which wasn't that many people in college. Right. But the. You add on like the per diem and the overtime.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And everything else that I was getting.

[B]

Paid per diem was like free money.

[A]

It is. Especially when you're a kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is. Like the paycheck. My mind was just blown by some of these paychecks. Thousands of dollars on these paychecks. When I was, especially on the railroad, just racking up the hours. And I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I could not believe how much money I was making. I was making more money than. Than my boss because he was salary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was hourly, even though my hourly rate wasn't even that high. And so it was. That was when I started to realize, like, wait a minute, there's actually. There's a lot here. This is. This is pretty cool. Because I didn't really. When I started in construction, I didn't really know about construction. I didn't know you could make good money in the industry. Honestly, I just wanted to be in it. So it was like.

[B]

I didn't know that either, but no, it became obvious and then you, yeah.

[A]

You get in it. You're like, yeah. Whoa. This is, this is crazy.

[B]

Well, that's, that's honestly how I got, I don't want to say stuck because I'm very, I'm very happy to have had the life and the experience that I've had because it's given me the ability to do what I'm doing today. Um, but when, when I was back there, I had no idea where it was going to go. So.

[A]

Yeah. Oh. But people do get stuck though, because they adjust their cost of living to their income.

[B]

You can't do that.

[A]

Especially when they're working overtime.

[B]

Especially when you're working overtime.

[A]

Rate worked. Yeah, yeah, you get, you get. Yeah, right. Work.

[B]

And you're working on a job that is designed to come to an end.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

A lot of people don't realize that about construction. Like, if you're running a construction company, that's one of the most difficult things is we are trying to work ourself out of a job and sometimes we even get paid more money to do it faster.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, and it's like, so you gotta think about that when you're working through it because. And that was. An old timer had given me some advice and he said, listen, you can live on your base paycheck. Why change it? And that was huge. Because when you have the resources, then you have the power to do what you want.

[A]

Which is obvious, but definitely easier said than done for some people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I've seen some pretty nice trucks.

[B]

Some pretty young people. It's like clear it didn't not suck.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the guys were like, nobody packed a lunch. I did, you know, and you know, the roach coach would come around and people were shelling out dollars and I'm there like counting my pennies.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, literally. So.

[A]

So when, at what point did you become a business owner then?

[B]

So I worked almost a decade in the trade for other people.

[A]

As an electrician.

[B]

As an electrician. And I was working on a job and I had gone from the company that I had been with for most of my career and they were top notch. They really did it well. They had a well oiled machine, they were smart about what they. And they got me to be on jobs that you wouldn't normally get to get on, hence why they were good at it. And then I went to Another company, and it was very different.

[A]

Why did you change?

[B]

I felt like there wasn't enough. I wanted more, but I didn't know what it was. And so I went into the office one day and I was like, what does the future look like to whoever was over me at that point? And he said, kind of more of the same. And I want to be careful. A lot of that could have been in my head.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, because I was this young kid, and I thought I knew everything. I thought I deserved more than I deserved. And so I was like. And I'd only ever worked there, like, when I was 16, I got my job there. I started as a shop boy, sweeping the floors, organizing nuts and bolts. Man. If you ever have thought about putting a screwdriver in your eyeball, do inventory in a nuts and bolts aisle for a week. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And I should say that I'm sorry. There were a couple of times that I maybe dumped whatever I was sorting into the trash can. So it's just a confession to be out there. That was very wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I probably saved your money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so then I left there because that's all I ever knew. And so I didn't even know what other people got paid at other companies. And so I was like, well, sure, I'm going to go try something different. So I went to this other company. They did not do the same type of work. They offered me more money right out of the gate because they were desperate for people. And that was where I learned that money, while it's important and it matters in some ways, more money doesn't make things better. And that was really big for me because I was like, wow. I went from a place where we worked as a team and we all supported each other to a place where, man, you needed to cover your ass.

[A]

Well, yeah, it doesn't. It's not really worthwhile if where you go for the more money sucks. Well, is what you're one.

[B]

And the thing that made it suck was not even the work, even though the work was different, but it was like everybody was out to get everybody else.

[A]

The culture.

[B]

The culture was extremely unhealthy. And I was super sheltered and innocent in a way, because I got to work for this company where their culture was healthy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it actually even does this interesting thing. We would work on job sites with other companies where their cultures weren't healthy, but our company's culture, like, almost built, like this wall of protection or a hedge of protection around us that it would go out before us. And it's like, oh, well, I'm not going to act that way in front of this guy, because he's. He's with this company. So I was really sheltered when I got into this company, and I never even understood what backstabbing was or climbing over someone trying to get to the top. And, you know, the top is not all that cool. It's not worth climbing over people for. For sure, no. So. So you asked how. How did I start my own business? And so I started implementing the things that I had learned from where I'd worked before, and I started gaining some success at the.

[A]

At the new company, at that new.

[B]

Company, because clients would start being like, but we want him to run this job. And so as I experienced that, you know, I began to struggle with, okay, well, to be totally honest, clients would come to me and they'd be like, you know, if you would go out on your own and you would do this, we would. We would send work your way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I was like, I'll never forget, one day I came into my boss's office, and he was project manager, and I asked him for the keys to the project that I was supposed to go take a look at. And there were papers all over the place. It looked like my room as a teenager. And he's like, oh, they're under that stack of papers over there. Just push that. It was a mess. I didn't even know how he knew where it was, except when I was a teenager, I knew where everything was. And then mom would make me clean my room, but it was just, there were so many things wrong. And I was standing there, and I'm like, I think I could do this better. You know, I think that I could. I might be able to do this and take the things that I didn't like from where I used to work and do this better. And then if I'm going to be totally honest, which is kind of my shtick, I always am talking with people about an honest conversation. My faith played a role into that, where I was feeling like I just kept talking with my wife and different people about it. It was one of those things where it was like, I began to feel called to do it, which sounded really.

[A]

Stupid.

[B]

And it just wouldn't leave me alone. And so finally one day I got invited to bid a job. And for months, I would go to public bid openings. Public work is great because you can. You can buy the bid packet. So I would get the drawings and whatnot, and I would actually work them and then I would go to the bid opening to learn if my estimates were good.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I'd write down, and it was actually a lot of fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was spending money on buying bid packets. My wife can tell you stories of when we were first married. I'd be in the living room with highlighters and legal pads bidding a job. And then I'd go to the bid just to see, Like, I wouldn't bid it, but I had a number in my head. And I'd be like, okay, where was I? And so I did that for like, six months.

[A]

Well. And then even now, it's all on the Internet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's crazy how accessible that information is. I was talking to somebody the other day from a different country and telling them, yeah, they just publish everybody's numbers. When it's. When it's public. Public works, they're like, what do you mean? They just publish everybody's numbers? Like, that's the bid opening. They show you everybody's numbers. So you can see exactly what everybody's pricing things for. Yeah. And I think the smart folks take that information and learn from it, like you were doing, because it's. It's just. It's wildly valuable. It's one of the craziest things that happens in construction. Is everybody publishing? Like, to get the job, you have to have your numbers published.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is crazy.

[B]

It is crazy. I mean, the thing is, though, it's like, let's be honest about what bidding is. It's guessing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wild ass, highly skilled, guessing. And it's like, so that's why it's so helpful to look at those numbers and be like, okay, am I. There's so many things to take into account, like our estimators. Now, I couldn't bid a job today because the software that they use, the programs that they use, there's no way that I could do it. And they bid bigger jobs in a quicker amount of time than I did.

[A]

Yeah. The complexity of stuff now, too.

[B]

Oh, my word.

[A]

Especially in electrical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just the line items involved in these electrical jobs is dizzying.

[B]

It is. It's crazy.

[A]

What. Before you left there, you said you'd implemented some things. Why were people asking or saying that to you? Like, hey, if you went out on your own, there could be something here.

[B]

Well, the things that. And I say I implemented some things. I just did what I was always taught and brought the culture of where I came from there. So I was a project manager and I was running work when I was there. And so when the cool thing, when you get to become a pm, at least in, in the industry that I was in, you essentially are getting to run your own company.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah, the project is a company.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I would have people working on my project. And so I started to require certain things that, you know, other PMs didn't require. I.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Well, being on time, the way that you communicate with a client, even as far as the way that you show up to the job site, the way that you dress.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I didn't become very popular because it was like, they wouldn't want to be on my job because the rest of the company didn't require that. Now, certain people did. It attracted certain people to want to be on my jobs. And then it began to focus the way that we work together as a team. And so we were able to get jobs done faster, we were able to get them done better. And the client began to feel like we really cared about their work. And we did. And I think that was the biggest thing that was different, where they're like, oh. And to this day, this fascinates me. If you want to be successful in construction, it's really simple. You do what you say you will do.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I cannot tell you even to this day, I have clients who will finish a couple million dollar job. And it's like they come to me and they're like, you did what you said you were going to do, and.

[A]

They'Re amazed when you said you were going to do it.

[B]

They're shocked. And it's like, it's not all that hard.

[A]

Yeah. We didn't have to argue about stuff. Wow. Yeah, it's not that hard. I just had a conversation with one of our guys yesterday and there were some communication issues. And I told him, like, dude, I wouldn't have even cared if you did anything last week. If you had just effectively communicated with me and just said some basic shit that you didn't do. Basic shit, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. It's just so simple. Like, it is so simple, so elementary. This is all you have to do, the very basics. That's it. But people, for whatever reason, I don't, I don't know why they don't, they don't focus on the basics as much. Like, I think I did a podcast yesterday, and one of the questions that I was answering was, as a, as a young leader in the construction industry, what's the best quality I could have? And the first thing that came to mind is consistent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just be consistent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, it doesn't. Like nothing else really matters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you can just figure out consistency. If you can just be the guy that delivers consistently, just hits, base hits, you don't have to. You don't even have to hit home runs. You don't even have to get on second base. Just hit base hits. That's all you have to do most of the time. Just show up on time. Just look the part. Just have a great attitude. Just be motivated. Just ask questions like, that's all you have to do. That's all. Or even just, just showing up on time consistently.

[B]

That, that's a big one for me.

[A]

But it's big because in a lot of ways it's, it's, it's, it's rare.

[B]

It's like when it communicates that you can be trusted with more.

[A]

And that's, that was my main, One of my main points is that trust is actions over time.

[B]

Well, I like that.

[A]

That's all it is. So I can trust you if you act in a consistent manner over a prolonged period of time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the more data points I have, the more I can probably trust you because I just, I just, it's really. Trust is me just assuming you're going to act in a certain way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's all it really is in the grand scheme of things. And that's to be that trusted individual is so valuable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wildly valuable. Well.

[B]

And the only real way to get that is consistency. It doesn't, that's it. It doesn't mean, you know, it's easy to sit here and talk about it and not talk about the things. It doesn't mean everything goes right.

[A]

No. Oh, no.

[B]

But if you consistently deal with it, then, like, even when you talk about we do what we say we're going to do on a job and, you know, we do it on time. We do. Well, not always, but we are communicating consistently with the client and saying, hey, this is this issue. I mean, electricians, we can't do anything without everyone else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, I can't wire up a wall.

[A]

Yeah. You're right in the middle, huh?

[B]

Yeah, we are right in the middle.

[A]

It sucks.

[B]

It's. We're always the last ones. Not because we are late or we suck at it, but it's like we can't finish things up until the other stuff is done.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So, but if you're effectively communicating that, and I think communication is huge because everybody communicates differently.

[A]

Yeah. But there's basics of Communication.

[B]

There are basics of communication that I.

[A]

Think a lot of people are lacking. And so if you learn the basics of communication, you're going to be way better off.

[B]

Well, it's the start of you going where you want to be.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think that when I talk about, everybody communicates differently from a leader's perspective. I think that a job of a leader is to learn how everyone communicates. And I think it's really helpful being an electrician. One of the things that it showed me is I need to be able to coordinate with the drywaller. I need to be able to coordinate with the H vac tech, the plumber, you know, the flooring guy, all of that stuff. I got to work with them and they might have a schedule. I remember one time I saw a job schedule and most of the jobs that I've ever worked on and the ones that I love and like are at minimum a year long job, you know, And I love being able to look at a Gantt chart and see the schedule and how the things all work together. But I had to learn how to communicate with all those different trades. And I saw a job one time and the guy gave out these schedules to the different specialty contractors and they just had their stuff on the schedule and I kind of got into it with them. I'm like, how does that work? I can't see the rest of the picture. How do I coordinate with this person? Because I don't know if they're going to be there and I don't know if you've noticed, but in construction things don't go the way that they're planned. I have yet to have a job that everything fell into place the way that it should.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because there's so many factors. I have a buddy who's in project management in industry and like the manufacturing and we were talking about project management and he was saying, oh, well, I've had this many jobs hit this, this and this. And I was like, well, yeah, you have an environment that's controlled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, let's take you to a job site, throw some mud out and you know, some weather and yeah.

[A]

There'S always a roof with what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

So but I think that consistently and you talk about the basics, consistence, being consistent and then as you grow in leadership, the importance of being able to communicate and understand the different people in the different ways. One of the biggest things that I would say to you related to that is when I became more of a Boss. And honestly, this is even more recent. I might be walking through the office and I say something to a guy and I realized I might not be talking loud or intense or anything like that, but I'm the boss.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I make a comment to a guy and he's like, oh, shit, I have to do that.

[A]

Or it could be like a joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you just say something offhand, like, you know, look at this guy. And then now he's sitting. I can't do that the rest of the day. Like, what the fuck did he mean by that? What have I done?

[B]

I don't do that anymore. So I've had to learn. And a lot of the hard way I've learned that stuff. Like people would leave because of they thought something based on what I said or how I said it, you know, and so I think the importance then of learning and even in managing teams and people, different people. Like, we grew up, we had different childhoods, so we look at things through a different lens and we interpret things differently. You know, we talked about your view of money and I would say a majority of others people's view is different.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

And when you don't come from a place where you grew up experiencing money, you strive for that. And so you look at things through that lens and that's really not what you should be striving for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen, money is a good thing. It's a tool, but that's all that it is.

[A]

And that's what I say, like, do I want a ton of money? 100%. I do. Because I've seen that life, dude. It is, it's super cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's not like the point. Yeah. That's not why I'm chasing what I'm chasing. I just, I know it'll happen at some point. Well, if I do the right things, if you're consistent, that's it. That's it. Yeah, it's. But it's a dichotomy to, you know, being careful with how you communicate with people versus also understanding that not everybody's going to like how I communicate or how I do things, and that's okay too. And so, and not everybody within a company, you know, within my company should, should be here. Yeah, you're, you're. If you're not, if you don't have some degree of turnover, it's probably not healthy is what I've learned from top performing organizations. Because even as an organization grows, you need different people, different skill sets. And some people are going to come with You. Some people aren't, and that's okay. And so it's, it's. You do have to cater to individuals and different people and figure out how to communicate effectively with different people, meet them where they are. But then at the same time, you also have to do your thing.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And so it's, It's. Which is. It's quite hard.

[B]

It is, it is.

[A]

It's very much a dichotomy.

[B]

Well, have you experienced this? When I. At a certain point in business, you know, we'd been in business a few years, we started exposing experience, a modicum of success. And I'm a very visionary person. I'm always thinking five years ahead. That's just. My wife hates it. Yeah. I'll be thinking about, well, what are we doing? I'm always planning. And so as I was building a company, I would hire people and I would hire them and we'd start to work together and it was really good. And I'd start to plan out their retirement at our company.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like you just said, sometimes people are with your organization for a time to get you to a certain point. And another thing is, the best advice I ever got was this old timer. I was sitting at some sort of event. He's sitting next to me, and I said, well, what was your success? Huge electrical company. And he said, well, I had to learn how to run a company with this many people, this many people and this many people. And they all were different companies, 100%. Like, he's like, when I had 15 people, this was the type of company we were. When I had 25 people, very different company. When we had 150 people, very different company.

[A]

And I think one of the biggest differences, at least I've experienced, is just the ease of communication. At 15, like 15 people. Everybody knows you. Yeah, so everybody. And you're able to get to everybody in a personal sense, communications. You don't have to think about it as much. You don't have to, like, design the company as much because the values, the vision, the culture is communicated by you pretty regularly through your regular interaction with everybody. And then you start to hit this certain point, 25, 30, 40, 50, whatever it is, up to 100, I don't know. It's somewhere in that range, typically, that the company just exceeds. You can't touch it all at a certain point as intimately as you once were.

[B]

Actually, after 15, that becomes extremely difficult.

[A]

I feel like it was, yeah, about. I feel like once we, yeah. Exceeded about 15, 20, it started to. Wow. I need to be way more deliberate about how I communicate in the frequency of communication.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then even understand too. Like, especially with new hires, they come on and they'll. We've got slack. And I might make a message, like, talk shit to Dan in like a channel that people can see. Because that's what we do. We just talk shit back and forth sometimes. Which is fun. It's great.

[B]

Well, you're working in the construction industry. That is kind of one of our go to things.

[A]

You need to. It is a critical means of communication with the people that I deal with out on site. Like without talked about how you have.

[B]

Three minutes to get someone to be okay with you being on site.

[A]

You crack a joke, you have to. You're there, man. Yeah, yeah. You crack a joke, you're there. So. But they'll, they'll interpret that as like, wow, this guy's a prick. Like, yeah, what a, what a piece of work this guy is. But, but, but through, like, I try to communicate a lot. So they.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They get me in different ways pretty quick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And start to hopefully understand, like, oh, that's how we. That's this personality. That's the culture. This and that. So like, not that I'm trying to be aware. Oh, there's some new people here. I need to provide context for this joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just need to be communicating enough so that they can pick up on who I am as quickly as possible.

[B]

Well, let's be a little real here because you, you actually love to do jokes and not provide context for them.

[A]

It's one of my favorite things.

[B]

Yeah. I was going to say, I love it. I remember asking you one time, I think you were doing the jokes about your family that didn't exist.

[A]

Yeah. I had to stop that because too many people thought I had a family.

[B]

Oh. It was very confusing.

[A]

Yeah. I would go into like, not only.

[B]

That you had a family, but that you had some real rocky relationships.

[A]

No. Yeah. I was like a deadbeat father is really what I was. Yeah. I was just a piece of shit to my kids and wife that didn't exist. Exactly. But I would. Big time executives would be like, hey, so I don't really understand the family thing. Can you explain that to me? And I'm just sitting there terrified, like, oh, no. Because I don't now that I would.

[B]

Have loved to have seen.

[A]

But sometimes I post stuff and it's like, I don't really. Who's going to see this? And I forget people see this shit. Which again, is like, why? It's worked in a lot of ways, but then sometimes it comes back around and you're like, yeah, that probably wasn't the best thing to say or do or whatever. It was.

[B]

Well, with as much as you post, I mean, yeah, I can understand that. And everybody's going to have an opinion about what you say.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's just how it is.

[B]

But I guess the deadbeat family dad jokes weren't maybe a good idea.

[A]

I thought it was great. I really enjoyed it. It really helped stretch my creativity, making up all these fake storylines with me and my family.

[B]

Stretch your creativity?

[A]

Yeah, it was a creative exercise. It was like, that's what I did when I sat down on the plane. I had to come up with a story about how I was such a terrible father or, like, how my wife's mother had just died, but I had to go to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I remember that one specifically. Well, that. That was one where I got a lot of condolences. I'm like, all right, all right. I can't. I can't. Like, death off the table. Can't be joking about that. Yeah, it's not funny. It is funny, but it's.

[B]

It sounds like the jokes that I make. And I'm married. I've been married for 20 years tomorrow. Oh, wow. And my wife often will be like, I literally will be texting someone. Matter of fact, I was doing it to you yesterday. I was texting you and I was like, oh, this is funny. I'm going to send this. And she goes, no, it's not.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

She's like, he's not in your head.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He'll be like, what the hell is that?

[A]

Yeah, but I like. I like. I like the dry. I'm a big fan of dry humor.

[B]

It's the best kind.

[A]

You still do you have the same company that you started back in the day?

[B]

I do.

[A]

So it's the same. It's been the same company the whole time.

[B]

It's the same name. I mean, there are different. Like when you talk about the people. Like, there were people that I started with that couldn't be in the company now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's the same company.

[A]

Same ein.

[B]

Yeah, same ein.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how. How long has the company been around now? Probably almost 20 years.

[B]

So next year will be 20 years? Yeah, yeah. We started in 05.

[A]

Wow. And so it's interesting. How big is the company? How many people do you have?

[B]

We have about 30 people.

[A]

Okay. So good size.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you. How did you. So 30 is, like a good, healthy business, like, I'd say, but it's still quite manageable. Did you ever grow beyond that? Did it ever get out ahead of you? Or did you intentionally be like, you know, I don't need to go, oh, man, I wish. Chase Data Centers in Virginia.

[B]

I wish that I could say that I was really intentional and really smart about it, but.

[A]

Yeah, like, how'd you get to that size over 20 years? After 20 years?

[B]

Well, there was. In the beginning, there was some. I used to think more people meant more money, meant more profitability, and meant success. Yes, that's what I thought it meant.

[A]

Which is. And that's what I'm getting at. I feel like when you start a company, you're like, more, more, more. If head counts going up, I'm doing better.

[B]

That's what I thought.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is the absolute furthest thing from the truth, in my opinion, because you have to provide for each one of those heads, and you got to make sure that the work is continuing to roll in. And I also was like, we would win work. And I'd be like, oh, I just need more people. So I would just hire more people. And two things happened, um, when we did that, um, culture diluted. And at that point, I was not intentional about culture. I just thought everybody knew what was in my head.

[A]

So you just. People bring in different stuff.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then it bounces off the existing stuff, and it can destroy the existing.

[B]

Stuff if you're not careful.

[A]

It just mutates.

[B]

It just mutates.

[A]

That's a better way to put it.

[B]

Yeah. And so I had to scale back and then be extremely more intentional. And one of the biggest things that we've struggled with with growth is maintaining efficiency. The bigger you get, you have to accept the fact that there's going to be inefficiencies. Like, you know, I have a business partner, and him and I used to do jobs, and the profit margins would be better, and it would be just like. I was the project manager. He was running it from the field standpoint. And it was like. And we knew each other, and we worked in sync, and we could do things that you just can't do when you have a project manager, a foreman, and then a crew of guys. And so we grew too fast. We have a. And the other big thing that I had to learn was when the work runs out, I have to let people go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was actually probably the most devastating, expensive, hard thing that I've ever learned, because I didn't Let people go at the right time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I came to a place where I had to let them go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember.

[A]

Been there.

[B]

I. Yeah. Nobody listens to this. Right. Because I don't want to say some of these things. Yeah. I'm just teasing.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

My partner and I often joke about. And it was early on in our start, and we didn't. We didn't let people go. And we. The company that we. We both came from the same company, he left at a different time than I did. But they would never lay anybody off. Now, they had been in business for 60 years, and they had figured out.

[A]

The rhythm, and they have a balance sheet.

[B]

They have a balance sheet. And so we just thought, well, that's what you do. You just pay people to work around the shop. And so we paid some of our guys to work on hanging some garage doors at our shop. And the joke still to this day is, wow, that's a $30,000 garage door hang job. Well, I know.

[A]

And there's like this pride in, you know, we've never let anybody go. Well, which I understand. Yeah. Which is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then it fools a lot of people into thinking, well, I'm a failure if I do that, so I'm not going to do that. Which then leads you to. Keeping people on it drives you to failure, which then drives you to failure, which then jeopardizes everybody, not just a select few.

[B]

You can go out of business for not enough work, and you can go out of business for too much work, and all for the same reason. And what you're talking about, what it drives you to cashflow is the lifeblood of any business. That's what pumps through the veins. Tight. Keep the lights on. Like at my home when things get tight. Well, we can cancel our cable subscription or we can turn. You know, my wife is an electricity Nazi.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, she. She turns lights off behind me and she's. She's all over.

[A]

My mom was just on my ass growing up. I had this. I had this aquarium that was. I mean, I was probably half the power bill at the house. No joke. It was. It was sickening how. Like, I had this light that was just like the sun. Like a collapsed sun hanging from my bedroom.

[B]

And back then, it was not efficient, I can tell you that.

[A]

No, and it was. It was. I mean, it must have been like 700 watts, this light. Since you're an electrician, maybe that means something to you.

[B]

It does. I don't know what it is anymore, but.

[A]

Yeah. But no, but like a heavy duty light that would then heat up the water. So then I needed a three quarter horsepower chiller.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

To cool the water down. And then would just make my room super, super hot. So then I turn the air conditioning down. But then my mom would come through like, hey, that thing doesn't go below 80. And I'm like, all right, it doesn't go below 80. And then she'd go to bed. I'd be out there cranking that thing down. There's like. Because there's no way in hell I'm sleeping at 80 degrees. I can't sleep while I'm sweating. There's no way.

[B]

Oh, my word.

[A]

But anyway, that's funny. Back to cash flow.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you asked. Have we ever experienced that? I thought that. That more people meant more success.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the wrong people mean the exact opposite of that. And so we had won a lot of work, so I just brought on warm bodies. I used to hear people talk about, well, we need warm bodies.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That is bullshit.

[A]

Yeah. That's like one of the worst.

[B]

It is worse. I mean, if. If that warm body actually destroys the work that two other people or three other people do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then that's. That's not. That doesn't work.

[A]

I just. Yeah. That. That term drives me nuts for so many reasons. Like, does that body have a name? Do they have a family? Do they have kids? Are they married? Like, what do they do? Yeah. Shouldn't we identify people as a little bit more than like a body and a mouth breather? Yeah, yeah. It. We got to a point where we hired too many people and we had to lay people off. And I still have shame from it. It's like two. Over two years. I'm still sitting here feeling like an asshole some days, just feeling like a complete failure. And that's partially because you always see the. Oh, we've never let anybody go. We've never laid people off. You know, and you see the people on, like, LinkedIn that were just laid off and they're so hurt by it. Rightly so. And then you realize, like, fuck, I'm the guy that just did that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my ignorance jeopardized these people, their families, their livelihood. And you can spiral pretty quickly.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's really hard. It was. Scaling back was one of the best things we've done as a business to date.

[B]

I think for me, when it happened to me. And you have to look at. Yeah, it's a weird analogy, but I'll use it. I used to when I was a kid, I'd watch these World War II movies, and I forget what movie it was. It was John Wayne. He was on a ship.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You know, in the Pacific, and the ship got hit by something. And so your business is the ship. You got people on the ship just like John Wayne. He had to close a bulkhead, and there were still men on the other side.

[A]

The classic conundrum.

[B]

And so it was this big ordeal. And here's the deal. You're the CEO, you're the captain. In your case, the chief dirt nerd. And so that's your responsibility. And so in this movie, he had to decide, was the whole ship gonna sink and everyone die?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or am I gonna seal these men in that compartment? Now, listen, in business, it's very different. We're not killing anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We live in a country where they can go get a job. There is work out there. They can do that. But in business, you have to make that decision sometimes for the good of the organization, that maybe you need to let these people go. And that was the thing that I learned that actually changed. And you talk about the shame of it. I don't want to talk about it. Even today.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I don't want to talk about it.

[B]

I'm talking about it because I think it's something that you bring up that's important. Because if you're starting a business and you think that you're never going to lay people off, One, you're wrong. And two, it will. If you think that way, it's going to rush you to it.

[A]

Well. And I was also enamored by the. We've retained everybody. And that's also one of the worst. I'm so glad I'm not in that camp anymore. I'm really proud of who we have here. We have a great group of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's also people, they serve the business. We serve them. And then at a certain point, it could be mutual. Hey, not working out for either one of us. It could be us having to tell them, hey, you've got to go. Or it could be them telling us, hey, I've got to go. And again, if that's not happening as well, it's not a healthy organization.

[B]

Do you think when you make that statement. And I love that you're talking about this, because I think that's the next phase of what you're talking about. Laying people off is hard and not looking at people. Our success, meaning I have 150 people. It's not about how many People you have. But you're talking about when people don't fit the organization and them having to leave. I think that's another thing where it's like, when people leave, we turnover. We tend to look at it and be like, oh, wow, you have turnover.

[A]

Oh, it's just bad. It's just negative. It's like.

[B]

But it doesn't mean that. Because doesn't turnover mean the way that you're talking about? Listen, if you have high turnover because you have a shitty business and a shitty culture, which is. That's a thing.

[A]

That is a thing.

[B]

But if you have turnover because you're growing, and honestly, the faster that you grow, the more turnover you're going to have, because those businesses change.

[A]

Yeah, but I'll fall into the trap like everybody else. I'll see some turnover for some companies on, like, LinkedIn. Like, oh, wow, a key person left. Like, man, they must not have their shit together. And then I like, slap myself like, what the fuck are you talking about? No, they're probably like, I don't know, maybe it was bad, but no, they're probably like, I've been watching them grow. They're just. They're iterating. Yeah. And part of that is iterating with people, with the team, because a business is really just nothing but people.

[B]

That's all it is.

[A]

So to grow and change, the existing people have to grow and change. And everybody doesn't grow and change. It doesn't work that way. And some people don't want to grow and change. They want. You know, like, we started as a fun little media company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then grew up into this creative company. And we had, like, a lot of our core people in the early days. That's what they signed up for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now we're singing a totally different fucking tune, which is fine. That's what we need to sing. And some people have come along with that because. Hey, okay, cool. Yeah. I didn't really. I didn't see myself doing this, but I want to be a part of this. Other people have been like, no, I wanted to do this. I'm like, I don't blame you. I don't blame you at all. It's not even slightly personal, but it does become personal as well.

[B]

It does.

[A]

And you so badly just want to be like, I promise you, this is not personal, but people's work and their employment status and their job, that's a very personal thing.

[B]

It is.

[A]

So I can say it's not personal all day long. It's fucking personal. And so it's just something. Yeah. It's something I've had to reconcile because I was so proud of us having no turnover for the first few years. And then, boy, have we had some fucking turnover over the past few years. Oh, boy, have we had some. But I've never been happier with our team and where we are. Then we had to go through it, which I'm really grateful for. And we're still going through it. It's still just a natural. A natural part of, you know, we're hiring people. And I'm almost happy when someone washes out within the first 90 days. Cool. Hey. All right. That's good, actually.

[B]

If you're having that happen in the first 90 days, that is good.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Because I'm glad we caught it six.

[B]

Months, a year later.

[A]

Yeah. I'm glad it's not six months, a year later saying, yeah, we. We hired the wrong individual for this role. And okay, it's now got to a point where we've got to do something about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is another indicator to me, it's like, okay, we're learning. And then what did we learn from this so we don't do it again? Like, let's not keep repeating this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's also, to me, it's like an indication that, all right, we're learning, we're getting a little healthier here. But then the goalposts are always changing. They do.

[B]

Just like that. Old timer told me I had to learn how to run a company at this size. This size and this size.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, talk about it. This is your podcast. You said something there that I find really interesting as I've watched you, because you've invited all of us in construction to have a window into what you're doing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And, yes, There are some of us, like myself, who are like, I don't want to do that. Like, I'm on social media and I don't like that window and. But you're talking about your turnover and everything. Everyone sees that.

[A]

Yeah. There's definitely downsides to it. There's probably people talking about what we're doing all the time, but honestly, I'm. I very rarely do I see any criticism or notice any criticism. I don't. I. Maybe I have it tuned out. Maybe I'm just not looking for it. I don't know what it is, but I just. I just completely ignore it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I am. I'm going to keep being honest and transparent. One of our values is transparency wins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's done me A lot of good. Like we just hired a young writer. And she said, man, I really appreciated your post the other day about what was it? It might have been about running out of money or laying people off or something like that. Some. So one of these topics that's not a fun topic to talk about. And she said, you know, I really, I think I was running out of money. Like nearly missing payroll. That's what it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we, we went through a period where, I mean, I could count on my hand the times that we nearly fucking missed payroll in a six month period, which was just brutal.

[B]

Yeah. That's a fun thing to experience, isn't it?

[A]

No, I don't, I never want to be there again. I've been there. Okay. I have the story. I can be a business owner says, yeah, you know, nearly missing payroll, huh? Like, okay, I can say it. I don't need to say it multiple times. I have that merit badge. Like, great, Good for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she said, I really appreciate your honesty and it makes me excited to come to work here. And I was like, why would that. But it's because it's like, I'm not bullshitting you. And yeah, I've screwed up. Yeah. I'm in my 20s. Yeah. I'm still trying to figure out who I am as a man, who, as I'm a leader, who I am as a business person, so on and so forth. I'm trying to figure it out like you. And I think that resonates with the right kind of person. So it's, it's ironically allowed us to bring in the right kind of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then two, I've just, I just let the company speak for itself. Like I'm just going to focus on building the company. You can criticize all day long, but it's like, you know, in a few weeks we're going to have over 1200 people.

[B]

That's pretty.

[A]

1200 industry leaders at our second event. It's like, you tell me it's not, tell me it's not working, like, and not to be. I can be a little cocky about it because it's like, I know how much effort we've put in to make that happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so tell me, look at that room and tell me we're on the wrong fucking path. You can't do that because these are some of the best people in that room, some of the best people in the industry that are all in the same spot because of what we're putting together here. And yeah, it's not we haven't got it right. We haven't always done the right thing. I have a lot of shame for some of the stupid things I've done or the stupid things I haven't done. But we're here, we're on the right path, and we're just gonna stay on the fucking course. Now, you want to talk shit about it, by all means, have at it. Because I'm not even thinking about you. And that's what I love, too. You are here looking at my stuff. I don't even know who the fuck you are, which I love. And maybe that's just a made up narrative on my head, but it's like I've never even had a thought about you yet. You're watching me every day. Love it. Come on down, have a front row seat.

[B]

Well, I wonder even some of those people you've chosen to be public on upfront. I mean, one of your. Is it your core value or goal? Transparency wins?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Corvette. Yeah.

[B]

And it's like you are being transparent in what you're doing. And I have a couple of companies and one of them is more public than the other and it's like, huh. I get to. I get to see it from both sides.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like. So I really wonder if other companies were More upfront on LinkedIn and whatnot about their turnover, but what would that look like? There's like, are you really. Are you really all that different?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because every company has turnover. And I would say we talked about it. There is a balance of, are you, Are you doing things wrong or. There's a balance of you're growing. And honestly, the faster that you grow, the more turnover that you're going to have. Because people, like you said, are going to realize. I don't. I don't know. That fits for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you might realize that they don't fit.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, imagine if the industry was honest about a lot of stuff. And I understand you. You can't. I wish I could be more honest and if it weren't for lawyers, I could be a lot more honest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's like, you know, I can talk about the payroll thing right now because we're not in that season anymore. I couldn't talk about it during.

[B]

Well, I don't know how wise it would have been to talk about it during.

[A]

Well, it would not have been wise.

[B]

You want to talk about your mountaintops when you're.

[A]

Yeah, but that's.

[B]

When you talk about the Valley.

[A]

But that's the irony. Of it is like, I can't talk about it when it's happening because I don't want to cause panic with our people. That would be the worst thing for business. I'm trying to get customers who need to trust that I'm going to be able to serve them into the future. Like I. Those. That's two very different things. But then you also, in a way, feel deceitful because it's like you're trying to be. And we weren't. We were pretty. We're probably more transparent with our people than we should have been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which did cause plenty of internal strife.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm. I'm glad we did, because it's like, here's where we are now. I don't think I ever said, yeah. It's like we're like, four days right out from just not having dollars, and. But then you get through it, and then it's so painful. You just want to go lock it in a box.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The black box. And never talk about.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But then now you're one of the guys furthering the image of business. That is. It's just great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, we haven't done anything wrong. We're good, man. Yeah, we're good. We've got it all figured out. And then other people like me who are struggling or looking around like, am I the only asshole that doesn't have this figured out? But in reality, no one has it figured out. But everybody's. No, it's all great. It's all like, scroll LinkedIn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much positive stuff do you see? How much, like. Yeah. Nearly missed payroll last week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me tell you, you're not gonna see that.

[B]

No. I mean, you're really leaning into something deeper there, where it's like, we present this fake Persona of what's going on. I've had a little bit of experience with that in recent months. Just with what we're. What we're doing at blackline and people seeing me for the first time. It's like, everybody also thinks that it's easy and you're rolling in it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Somebody just asked me yesterday or the day before, like, hey, have you thought about opening an office in Europe yet? I'm like, what the fuck do you think this is? Like, what? I'm like, I just got a quote for new doors in office for a few thousand dollars, and I'm like, I'm gonna have to put that off a few months. Hey, this is in that kind of program.

[B]

I was rather disappointed when the Bill Wood Jet didn't come to pick me.

[A]

Up, so give me a few more years.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But where was I going to go with that? I think the construction industry is also guilty of this because they need to hire people. And as you get more and more desperate, you're willing to say, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not that it's disingenuous, because there is camaraderie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There is a great sense of purpose. You can make a lot of money. You are working around big equipment, this and that. From a recruiting standpoint, if you go look at the image presented, it is not always accurate. And I think this is the. When I was looking into the US Military, there's one branch meeting recruitment goals, and that's the US Marines. The US Marines, notoriously, is the one you don't really want to go into because they're the grunts. Right. But that's why they're not missing recruiting goals, because they're being honest with, hey, we're not top of the food chain. We don't want to be. Someone needs to be a U.S. marine. So if you're down with that, you're down to being the shit. Come on down. And there's.

[B]

Imagine who you're going to get when they show up and they recognize that you were honest with them. Yes, there it is. Yes, that's the building of a team.

[A]

Yes. And so. But in construction, I think what's happening is one, we're making it look prettier than it is. And I'm guilty of that. I'm part of the problem. But I don't stage shit. Yeah. I make it look prettier just by, I guess, my eye or whatever. But it's all just. I don't.

[B]

Well, even when you take a photo, you are editing it before you take it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Our team has ruined. I love movies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They've ruined them for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, it's totally ruined one, the.

[A]

Image of the industry I don't think is being painted in the most accurate light because then, like, turnover is. People under the age of 25 in construction is over 60%.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So over. Over 60%. So over 1 and 2, that come into the industry bounce right back out. Because I think that's part of it is they're being sold a bill of goods. They come in, they have a lot of other options. According to the Biden Harris administration, we have the best job market in world history, which is true in some senses, which is complete dog shit in other senses. But that's A different conversation.

[B]

Getting your election talk in. I like that.

[A]

Well. But hey, yeah, you close the country down, you open it back up. Go figure. Job growth. It's incredible. Um, but they do have a lot of options. So then they just bounce right back out. And then two. And I'm starting to really actually lean into this. And I'm going to talk about the summit. It's like we're going to put up a picture. Everybody's smiling. People are killing themselves over here in record numbers. Yeah. People are dying by overdose. Yeah. Opiate overdose record numbers. Alcoholism, rampant. Divorce, rampant. You know, there's all these things over here, but, like, that's. That's not really our problem. That. That's. That's a personal thing. That's. Hey, that's their thing. I can't do anything about that. They're just drug addicts.

[B]

Where do people spend most of their life? At work.

[A]

You know, I. And it's. I struggle with it a little bit. And I've got to eat my own dog food. I've got to make an organization. Like, I've got to make sure we're doing the right thing here. And there's a lot of things that we're not. That we need to. That we're working on. But. Yeah, I just. I think in a way, the industry is falling victim to this exact same thing, which does no one. And the most ironic thing about painting the industry in a very certain way, that I see it painted a lot of times, is that it's disrespectful to the people in the industry. And that is the most ironic thing about it, is you have these people in the office, in the recruiting department, and they're just doing their job. They're painting the industry in a certain way or these campaigns or whatever. Painting the industry in a certain way. Then people in the field are seeing it. They're calling bullshit, man. I've been standing waist deep in shit today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's cold, it's miserable. And I'm not happy to be here today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm here, I'm doing my job. Like, that's what this is really like. And then they get these young kids that show up that then they start to resent these young kids because, well, they're not worth anything. They just come in, they think it's going to be something, then they bounce right back out.

[B]

It's like, well, that's why carpet walkers should be in charge of what's being posted. I mean.

[A]

Yeah. You know. Well, that's Coming. Dude, I am the biggest carpet walker out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pencil pusher over here. Yeah. And I don't know the. I don't know the answer. I just, I think the industry needs to lean into what it is and who it is rather than try to be something it's not.

[B]

Why? I think that's the importance of not letting. I talk about how the team has ruined movies for me. It's because I never saw what was behind the lens before. So we'll be sitting down as a family watching a movie, and I'm like, oh, okay. So there's a gaffe over here. I can see these things. And I'm like, oh, that. It just makes it different. But the importance of making sure that what we're bringing through the lens, like, you need to put some effort into making it look right and good, but that you're bringing through the truth.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's where it's like. And I actually think from a marketing standpoint, and I am not a marketing guy, by no means, but I think people are hungry for the truth. I think they're hungry for authenticity more than ever before. I mean, I know that the next generation of young people that are coming up, they are desperate just to hear real and authentic conversations. They're desperate to have a job and to know really truly what it is.

[A]

Well, and that's what drew me in. That's one of the big things that drew me into construction. It's like, oh, this isn't politically correct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, we can talk shit. This is, this is gritty and hard and fucking miserable. Some days, like, I, I fell in love with that. I was, you know, I was living in the country clubs. I, the, the places that I was at as a kid were wild. Wild because I've gone back as an adult and like, I can't even believe that I was in a place like this. It's just mind boggling. I never want to go back to that stuff because I found this world because there's so much bullshit in that world. It's like I want to get away from that. And so they, like a lot of people trying to recruit the next generation. They're like, oh, yeah, they, they love technology and, you know, they want to talk about their feelings and they love equality. You know, we need to, we need to really focus on these things. And it's like, maybe, but I don't like, I, I just like that everybody's just doing their job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just like that everybody's just working. I just like While they're working, while they're miserable, they're talking some shit. Like, I. I like that because this is the only place in society I can find that. I can go find the bullshit elsewhere. I can go find the beanbags. I can go find all that everywhere else. Not. Not uncommon.

[B]

Do you know why that is in the trades? This is fascinating to me. It's real question. Do you know why that is? Because you can't hide shit in what we do. If you don't do your job. All of you know, you're on a job site. You know, the guy who doesn't do his job, that, you know if you don't do it, you're not going to keep it and doesn't mean that you'll get fired. But the team will work around you or without you. You can't hide. I love it when someone comes on the job and they try to talk like they know what they're talking about.

[A]

Mm. I've made that mistake too many times.

[B]

Well, you know, in the electrical world, we have, you know, 30 different. 30,000 different parts that we use. Probably way beyond that. We don't call any of them by the name that they are in the book. You know, we don't. You know, we call things, you know, like. I don't want to say them because we're also perverts in the way that we name things. But, you know, it's like we call things. It's a pecker head or it's a.

[A]

4 inch or even the mouse thing. The mouse?

[B]

That's not what it's called.

[A]

It's probably not the technical thing.

[B]

Thanks for saving me from where I was going there.

[A]

I appreciate that. I'll bring you back.

[B]

But you can't hide that. And you only learn that stuff by doing the work.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so that's the part that I'm saying. It's like in the trades, it is the one place where we can't do those things. Like, what is the most important thing on a job? It's that it gets done and it doesn't get done by us talking about it.

[A]

Yeah, well. And. And that's what drives me nuts with like, oh, like here we do safety. It's like, no, no, no, you don't do fucking safety. You build stuff like there's no company. Like, safety is not the priority. Yeah, building stuff pays the bills.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah, we're building stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We want to do it safely and that's really important. But building stuff is number one. Like when did we get away from that? Like, I, I, I even. That. That drives me nuts. It's like, no, no, no. That's. That cannot be the priority. If safety was the priority, and this is a can of fucking worms that I'm opening right now, but if safety was the priority, no one would be here.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We wouldn't be building. We would have stayed home. That's exactly because we're a lot safer at home. Safer.

[B]

Have you ever heard the term safety third?

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Which I like. That's. That's like the core argument.

[B]

Oh, it is.

[A]

That Mike Rowe makes. It's like, hey, but, yeah, it's like. But to me, again, as a young person, it's like, you're lying to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like you are lying to me because I don't feel like you really care. Like, my safety is the most important thing for you. Yeah, I don't, I don't. I'm. I'm not buying that, Mr. Corporate Safety Guy. Like, I'm so sorry, but one, I'm not buying it. And two, why are you taking my responsibility for me as an individual? Why are you taking that from me?

[B]

Well, it's the worst possible thing to do.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's a movie called Blackhawk Down. I love this. In the scene of the movie, they're going through the food line or whatever, and this officer says to this special operator. I think it's Delta Force or something like that, who's in line, has his gun hanging on his side. He's like, dude, your safety's not on. And he goes, this is my safety. And, like, points to his finger. And it's like, we get into this place where it's like, we get so. And he was stating in that statement, I'm aware of where my gun is. I know where it's pointed. I know what it is. I am safe. I am responsible for me and this gun.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

And so it's like when we take that away from people and you talk about even the corporate safety. I've been on some pretty big projects and. Oh, man, we're really going to do this with safety guys. Corporate safety guys can get so powerful.

[A]

Yeah. Oh.

[B]

That they lose all reality and it actually makes the job less safe.

[A]

That's the biggest irony about it. Yes. Yeah. Because then it's like, oh, okay, all right. So you're in charge of our safety. Okay. All right. You can have it, dude. Yeah, you can have it Now. I'm not. Now I'm not going to take ownership of anything or like, everybody stop work. Authority to stop work. Are you kidding me? Like, what are you talking about? There's no way, no way I'm going to stop work. Like, it's, it's, it's. Or, and even like, like one of the things that drives me nuts is like a glove policy. Like 100% gloves all the time. It's like, I get it. Yeah. People are cutting their fucking fingers. But all that says to me, I really resent it because all that says to me is, we don't think you're smart enough to know when to put gloves on or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we don't trust you.

[B]

So you just wear them all the time.

[A]

Even enough to know when to put gloves on or not. So, yeah, you're going to wear it all the time like you're a fucking six year old. And that's a very common policy. So I am out here criticizing a very common posse with like every big construction company right now.

[B]

Aaron Witt is criticizing that. Not me.

[A]

Yeah, not you. But, but, but. And like, I understand it. I get it. Yeah, I understand. But I, that's how, that's my read on it. And then I really resent it creates this resentment within me. Even with that understanding that is like, wow, you just think like, I'm a, I'm a child. Okay, I'll act like a child then. And that's not what I do. I don't think I put my gloves on.

[B]

Like, all right, some people do.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna win this fucking battle with Mr. Mega Corporation. I don't think they, I don't think they really care about me, but in my opinion. But yeah, but some people do. And. Yes. And then that resentment makes them less safe and the people around them less safe.

[B]

Well, and that's just it. When, when an individual on a job site is less safe than everyone around that individual is not safe as well.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. So I don't know how we got onto the criticizing.

[B]

We did.

[A]

Very common.

[B]

Yeah, we did. You were joking about your family. That doesn't exist. And then you went into criticizing safety guys.

[A]

This one off the rails. Let me go to the bathroom and we'll recalibrate here because I do want to get into Black Line specifically. So why does an electrical contractor that has a pretty good thing going decide to start a creative company? We've alluded to it.

[B]

Yeah. Why? That's a great question.

[A]

I would have told you, don't do that.

[B]

Yeah. You would have been very, very wise to Say that. Well, it didn't start as a creative company. Earlier we were talking and you said, you pull out a string.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it starts to. And so Blackline started in 2021. You know, our company had continued to grow, and it started out of. We were doing some design work, and we had made some investments in some technology and whatnot that made our designs more appealing to more people, but we didn't always want to do the work. So was at a meeting with a contractor, they wanted us to do a job. And I said, well, we can design it. And he's like, well, you can't design it with your name. No one else will bid it. And so I wish that it was more creative than this. But like I said, I'm always thinking ahead. And so my partner and I always are thinking of names that we think are good, because I think a name matters a lot.

[A]

You're talking to a guy that put his last name in the company.

[B]

Yeah, I've already criticized you.

[A]

I'm not Mr. Creative over here.

[B]

Well, I think that names matter a lot. And so I had this name in my head. We'd already done some stuff with it, and so I just said to the guy at lunch, I was like, hey, just email Blackline. That's actually our design company. Now you talk about being truthful. I was literally making that decision to make it our design company in that moment, texting our controller, saying, hey, buy this domain right now. Create an email in the next 30 minutes, did all of that. So that's how it got started. So we were doing design work and whatnot. And then as we began as a company to invest into people through 2020, in culture and things like that, we realized, oh, and through that investing in people, we'd also started investing in the creative space. Because for our team, we wanted to communicate. This is who we are.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I experienced some real positives with that. Meaning you talk about turnover. One of the best ways that I've found to deal with turnover is to advertise and communicate who I am, because then you see me before you meet me and. Or and our company, you see them before you meet them. And it's like what it began to do was not only did it start to attract people to our company, but as the more we communicated, it kept the other people away that didn't align with what we were wanting to do or how we were wanting to do it. And so we were investing in that. And then I was like, well, we can do this for other people. And we Began to realize. And what made it a creative company, honestly, was build with partially before I ever even met you. And that was. I was watching you post things about Berg, who's a contractor local to where I live.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And matter of fact, I thought it was Berg, which means you were doing your job. Right. I didn't even know that it was Bill Witt. And so I was looking at those things and seeing what they were posting and I'm like, wow, that's really interesting. Why isn't he doing that for my trade? And to be quite honest, it started to piss me off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like. But I forget if you posted something or if you said something, but I just began to feel like, well, if I want this to be done, then we need to do this. So we pulled together our resources and we started a company in the creative space and combined some training with it as well. Before I even really knew that that that's where you were going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we began to do that in the creative space and tell people stories so that we could kind of lift the view of the trades and be like everything that you've talked about, about being honest with people, letting them know where it's at. I really, truly believe that that is the most effective thing to getting people into the trades. Like the Marines. If we're telling a story, we want to tell the truth of that story because we've seen the effectiveness of it and we want to continue to do that. And so we started to do that and it's been like, not a roller coaster. It's been more of like a we launched a rocket. And I'm still kind of hanging on. I've gotten burned.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Creative business is very different than construction. And the people in creative, the things that they can do are just absolutely amazing.

[A]

It blows my mind.

[B]

Absolutely amazing. And you know, we had people on our team who were involved in super bowl commercials and our little creative company doing things for contractors and their skill, all that stuff with that. The creative world is so different than construction and managing people. I love creatives and I hate creatives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sometimes I can be a creative. Like, I think we all are creative in our own little ways.

[A]

I think so, too.

[B]

And so. And so I even hate that term creative.

[A]

But you just, you just want to sometimes probably say, like, you coming from the construction world, can you just shut up and do your job?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Something you can say in construction, but you can't say the creative world. Yes. I've never said that. But it's like I know that's in construction. This. Jimmy, shut the fuck up. Well, just do your job. Because I've been told that many times over.

[B]

Yes. I'm very fortunate to have a team that aligns very much with what we're doing. And they came to Blackline, so you gave us the format. Like, we're not your typical agency. You know, we're not. We're not the agency that I hired to do our stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And we try to train our people, and even our people that come to work with us, they want to lift the view of the skilled trades. That's what they want to do. So that's a different type of creative right out of the gate.

[A]

Yeah, that's. And that's the power of mission. Because I think that's how we've attracted just some brilliant people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As they get on board with that mission, and they're like, wow, I've never had that focus before. I've always been over here, over here, over here. But having this focus is incredible. And then once they get into the industry and start to see it, I see them fall in love with it, too, and then they apply their creative horsepower to it.

[B]

Oh, my word.

[A]

Oh, this is.

[B]

Which has never really existed in our industry before.

[A]

No. No. But it's not like people give me weights way more credit than I deserve. It's like, there's nothing innovative about it. Like, it's happened in most other industries. Like, I was looking at cars. Why are cars so sexy? Because there's a lot of money put into imagery and production value for cars, for the sake of sales. It's like, why can't we do that? For equipment?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. Why can't we. Why can't we do that? But trades, overall, it's like, yeah, why can't we? The same principles apply.

[B]

Yeah, well. And they're really simple. But it even comes back to some of the things that you said. Consistency, if you're consistent about it. And I want to be really clear, I think that in construction, we have this thing that we do, and I'm guilty of this, even towards creatives. So I want to put this out there. On construction, we judge the other trades too. You know, we. We get. I mean, you go on Instagram, you can find some great memes about electricians, and no one will listen to anything I have to say anymore. You know, we. We judge everybody. And it's like, it's because we don't know. You know, we don't know. So, like, I.

[A]

Or it's tribal.

[B]

What'd you say?

[A]

It's tribal too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Part of the electrician tribe.

[B]

But like I am guilty of when we would hire a creative agency and they would come in and do a video for. And I'd be like, it costs how much for three minutes?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, until I saw the work that goes into it and let me be really clear, I can't do what they do.

[A]

Nope, I can't either.

[B]

We have this one gentleman and he's doing editing and I'm like, I think I would stab myself in the eye with a screwdriver. And it's not much of a thought. I would. There's no doubt that I can't. Not only can I physically not do it, but even if I could, we do a lot of driving with our job and guys will be in the back of a Bronco editing footage while we're driving. I would be puking. I don't know how they do that. So all that to say it started with wanting to lift the view of the trades within our organization. And then it was like, wow, there's something here. And just. And I don't know if we were talking about this on the podcast or not, but just like, you know, I started with different businesses when I was younger and it's like, this is something, I think that can help this, that can help this and it can kind of build them together. And it's become much more than just the company that I founded being successful. I actually believe that the trades matter. And for a rather non noble reason, I think that there's a huge deficit in people in skill. I'm already experiencing things in my life where I have to wait for things. Like I've never had to wait for things before. I'm an electrician by trade. One of the big things over the past couple of years and only now are we beginning to see some slight change. But the supply chain issues have been insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Never in my life would you order a switchgear. And they would be like, and we'll ship that. We don't know when. Yeah, like it might be a couple of years.

[A]

They'll say, yeah, and you're going to like it. Yeah, that's exactly how it goes.

[B]

But it's like. And, but that's partially because of the situation. We haven't done a good job of talking about what we do. And blackline, when I say we want to lift the view of the skilled trades, it's like, if people don't see it, then how do they know? And so I've fallen in love with creatives and the way that they can tell the story of that man or woman that's in the ditch on the day that you talked about, where they're in the mud and their job sucks and they hate it that day. But do you know what is worth telling that part of the story for is if they do that consistently, it's not about the day, it's about the overall. And if we tell that overall story, you'll see. Well, that's what that day is. But let's talk about what it is. When we build. Shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When we finish a project, when we've built a building. I still do it to this day, and my kids are sick of it. But I drive by and I'm like, dad. Dad built that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, my son's like, you're an electrician. You don't build anything, dad. But I mean, we come together and it does something to you. And it's like, so that day that I was in the mud, and I think it's a great metaphor for life. There are going to be days where you hate life.

[A]

I do, yeah. Yeah. I think. I think the trait. It's very human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd say it's a very human profession.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

It aligns quite nicely with human nature, which is why I'm so optimistic, because I think there's a lot of other careers out there that don't at all align with human nature that I think have been put on these pedestals that I think people are starting to find out are complete nonsense. It's like, wow, this whole industry doesn't create any value whatsoever, and I'm making all this money, but I am completely miserable. And I don't. I don't envy those people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You see, you're building this agency, and then you've also. I feel like people most know the black line name for the podcast, which you've gone all in on. I appreciate it. I'm like, well, I do. I'm like, I think about all the time. I'm kind of lazy. I want people to come to me because I'm always traveling. Then it's nice to have people here and host them. So and so. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure that out. But you go, you've been all over now. Well, it's been quite a few episodes as well.

[B]

Probably one of the hardest things that I've had to do.

[A]

Yeah, well, you. You bit that one off. I knew exactly what you were getting yourself into. And I was quiet. Oh, man. He doesn't know what he's getting himself into. Like, I wish him the best. I hope it works. And it's obviously worked.

[B]

I still remember at Dirt World, I'm asking you, hey, can we do this? And you're like, go for it.

[A]

I was like, man, there's a reason why I haven't done it. Because it's a lot of work. I can appreciate it.

[B]

Well, you talk about all in. I think if you're going to do something that's going to succeed. I read a book this past year called Burn the Boats.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And it's a great book. And if you're going to go at something halfway, you're literally saying, well, I'm going to lose, and I don't want to do things if they don't have purpose or value. And so we started the line, and that even came out of the creatives on our team. Literally, I would be talking and having these conversations about why we're doing this, and they're like, why aren't you recording that and having those conversations with other people? And the cool thing is, the line podcast is all it's about is having real and honest conversations like we would have on the job with real people.

[A]

Yeah. That we just normally have.

[B]

Exactly. And so. Yeah, so the agency piece helps that. So sometimes I'll travel with the team and they're doing a project and we'll line up some podcasts with that. It has been really difficult as far as It's a. It's a big time investment. It's a lot of work. I think one day I did eight podcasts in one day.

[A]

Eight.

[B]

That was a lot.

[A]

Holy shit. I think I've done like four or five. And I was toast.

[B]

Yeah, eight. I was definitely toast. Damn. And it was. And they weren't all like, super long, so that was helpful. But they weren't all. Not super long either. But, yeah, it was. I. I also think one of the. And I said this to you earlier. The part for me that it's been a huge return is the amount of knowledge that I've been able to learn. I get to sit down in the room with these people, that there's no other way that I would get to sit with them.

[A]

No, it. To me, the podcast, I think it is, like, the most selfish thing I do. Yeah, it's. It's. For me, first and foremost, I love it. It's. It's incredible.

[B]

It is pretty selfish. You made me come here to Nashville.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your. Yeah, your wife's downtown right now, probably just hating it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm sure she's hating.

[A]

Yeah. No, no, it. It's just so cool. And that's, in a way that it bums me out. Like, the trend now is using podcasts as a marketing tool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we're a company. We need a podcast. Like, yeah, they press the podcast button. That's. This is. This is really going to do it for us. It's like, that's not what it should be. And it's like you're robbing yourself of the value of it first and foremost. It should just be. I've tried and I've lost my way sometimes, too. We've tried to use it as a tool, and I've had, especially this year, like, claw it back. Hey, I just want to talk to people I want to talk to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just want to enjoy it. I just want to have some fun. And that's why we're doing in person now almost always as well, because I just don't have fun remotely. It's just. It's like a job when I have to do it remote. It's not. It's inhuman. It doesn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't fill me up.

[B]

There's something about talking with someone face to face.

[A]

Yeah. It's just so matter of fact, when it's on a computer, when I can do this, it's so much more fulfilling to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which then I hope comes across when people listen. I don't know.

[B]

I think it does. I mean, that's the cool part about when you talk about other people who are coming at it from a marketing standpoint, here's the deal. Nine times out of ten, if you're not trying to market authenticity and honesty, nine times out of ten, if you'RE just doing it because that's what you want to be and that's who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then nine times out of 10, you're going to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're. If you're trying to manufacture something that isn't there, you're not going to succeed.

[A]

Well. And that's why I've only focused on the dirt world. Yeah. Everybody's always like, oh, you should go do this, you should go do that. I'm like, I don't know. I probably would do well, but it doesn't get me going. So I don't want to do it. Like, I'm not doing this just to do it. I just. Like, how do you pick the projects you go to, whatever I find is cool. I don't know, like, wherever I want to go, it's likely. It's like, most everything we do is unpaid. And I'm just like, the recent videos we just did. Or Pilbara, Western Australia. That's somewhere I've always wanted to go since high school. I've just like, I can picture the photographs that I've been just enamored by. It's like these big excavators digging on Mars. This bright orange red earth, like iron ore. How cool is that? How. Like, that's Natural resources at its, like, most raw. And it's in the middle of nowhere and the whole workforce has to fly in by plane, and they live on the mine. And the whole thing's just nuts. And it's like, that's what I want to go see. Yeah. But it's driven some people nuts. Like, why don't you go outside the dirt world? It's like, I don't know. There's legitimate reasons for it.

[B]

Well, I'm glad that you didn't, because it provided an opportunity for us to do something at Black Line, which I.

[A]

Have zero qualms with. That's always my response, like, I don't know, why don't you go do it? If I had a dollar for every time someone said, you should go do this for ag, it's like, you're right, I should, but I don't want to. So how about you be the guy? Like, right. How about you be the girl? I don't know. Do it for ag. Cool. So, yeah, it's been fun watching you guys. The production value in the podcast is no joke.

[B]

Well, that's the creatives that I was complaining about earlier.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I mean, it looks legit. They are very good at what. What they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're. They're just. And like I said, it's not something that I could do. And that's the other thing that we try to do is we try to. The reason that we go on location is we're trying to give a picture. I did a. I did a podcast with a guy, and we were in their warehouse, and it was one of the hottest days of the year. And this is really ironic. It was H Vac company and we sit in their warehouse, which is not air conditioned. And I literally was like, are you kidding?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, really? And I was sweating bullets. And they're like, team's like, would you want to go into their office and do it in the Conference room. And I'm like, if we're real and authentic, I can sit here and sweat my ass off because your guys are out there working right now, sweating their ass.

[A]

They're in some attic somewhere.

[B]

Exactly. So we can totally do that. And that's why we try to do it, because it's for the men and women that are out there in the trades and to lift the view to what they're doing. That's why we do it so well.

[A]

You wanted a job site for me, but like I said, I'm a pencil pusher.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Well, in that case, we were going to fake it, but you've moved a machine once or twice.

[A]

I actually ran a machine the other day. Really? Yes. I did very important work.

[B]

People let you do that after the skid loader incident.

[A]

I did very important work. I didn't even scratch it. Yeah.

[B]

I'm impressed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do people find the podcast?

[B]

So you can go to our website and you click that hamburger, you know, Blackline Ltd.com and click the hamburger menu in the line. If you search YouTube, the line by black line, it'll come up in anywhere on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It's on all that.

[A]

And then you're on LinkedIn consistently as well.

[B]

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Joshua Malott. And I'm also on Instagram, But I think LinkedIn's where it's at. But that's just me.

[A]

I'm a huge, huge LinkedIn guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right on. Well, thanks for coming to Nashville.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I enjoyed this.

[B]

Yeah, me too. Thanks, Aaron, for challenging us to get on board with this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, I've been, like I said, I've enjoyed watching it.

[B]

Yeah. The podcast that we did at Dirt World was probably the clincher for me that changed everything.

[A]

Yeah. You came up and asked me. I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Do whatever you want to do. Like, people have asked me like, hey, can we have a happy hour? I'm like, have a happy hour. I don't know. Like, this is your.

[B]

I should have asked you that. That's what I should have asked.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have cost.

[B]

It's cost me a lot less money.

[A]

Like, they're asking. They're asking my permission. I'm like, I don't know. Like, our events team probably is going to chew my ass. But, like, have at it. Whatever you want to do. Well, cool, Cool. All right. On.

[B]

Thanks, man.