The Complexities of Public Works w/ Mark Valenti – DT 312

Summary

Episode Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – "The Complexities of Public Works" (DT 312)
Release Date: February 13, 2025
Host: Aaron (A)
Guest: Mark Valenti (B)

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Introduction to Public Works and Personal Interests

In this episode, host Aaron engages in an insightful conversation with Mark Valenti, delving deep into the intricate world of public works. The discussion begins with personal anecdotes, including experiences in sailing and the fascination with yacht races such as the annual Sydney to Hobart race. This serves as a metaphor for the precision and physics involved in public works projects.

Notable Quote:
A [01:19]: "It's just straight physics. That's all we're doing here. And we're getting from here to there using the wind."

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The Big Dig: A Case Study in Infrastructure Transformation

Mark shares his extensive experience working on Boston's infamous Big Dig project. He highlights the project's monumental scope, its significant cost overruns, and the transformative impact it had on the city’s infrastructure. Despite the challenges, the Big Dig ultimately beautified Boston, eliminating the divisive highway that once split the city.

Notable Quotes:
A [08:53]: "The Big Dig, too, I think it's a good example of, like, everything gone wrong in an infrastructure project."
B [09:28]: "It is beautiful now. It really is. For the people that saw it before and after, there's just no comparison."

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Navigating Public Sector Challenges

The conversation transitions to the unique challenges faced in the public sector compared to the private construction industry. Mark emphasizes budget constraints, labor shortages, and the critical importance of maintaining high-quality standards in public works projects. He advocates for embracing opportunities within the public sector, especially for younger professionals seeking stability and meaningful work.

Notable Quote:
B [14:49]: "We have to get back to the grassroots of where we need to train, because those are the people that are potentially our future middle and senior managers that are coming up through the ranks."

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Addressing Labor Shortages and Enhancing Training Programs

Mark discusses the pervasive issue of labor shortages in public works and the urgent need for comprehensive training programs. He underscores the necessity of succession planning and equipping the workforce with the skills required to uphold infrastructure integrity. This includes fostering relationships both within and outside the organization to ensure a steady pipeline of qualified personnel.

Notable Quote:
B [16:47]: "Do I miss some of the organized chaos and some of the, the drive and just the adrenaline flowing? I'd be lying if I told you I didn't miss that sometimes."

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The Essential Role of Public Works in Society

Exploring societal perceptions, Mark and Aaron reflect on how public works departments operate mostly unnoticed until infrastructure failures occur. They advocate for greater advocacy and recognition of public works professionals, drawing parallels to first responders who are vital yet often underappreciated components of community safety and functionality.

Notable Quote:
B [24:10]: "I look at it as, I have a road project every fiscal year. It's another 'It's a $15 million road project that I have every year'."

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Overcoming Equipment and Budgetary Challenges

The discussion moves to the logistical hurdles of equipment management and budget allocation within public works. Mark recounts experiences with rising costs, inflation, and vendor negotiations, emphasizing the need for strategic budgeting and proactive equipment maintenance to ensure project continuity and efficiency.

Notable Quote:
B [69:00]: "We have a five year look ahead... we're also an accredited agency through American Public Works Association."

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Community Projects and Sustainability Initiatives

Mark highlights various community-centered projects, including cemetery maintenance and the introduction of green burial options. He discusses the integration of new technologies, such as AVL (Automatic Vehicle Location) systems, to enhance operational efficiency and sustainability in public works activities.

Notable Quote:
B [61:35]: "We have a four week to five week range. That is a full time job in itself."

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Future Opportunities and Cross-Sector Collaboration

Concluding the episode, Aaron and Mark explore future opportunities within public works, advocating for increased collaboration between the public and private sectors. They stress the importance of embracing new technologies and training methodologies to address ongoing challenges and improve infrastructure management.

Notable Quote:
A [94:00]: "If you are somebody that is looking for job stability, consistency in location, reasonable consistency in work hours, work life balance, stable retirement scenario and a desire to still continue serving the community. It's like there's not that many better roles than a municipality."

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Final Thoughts

Aaron and Mark reinforce the indispensable role of public works in maintaining society's essential services and infrastructure. They call for greater appreciation, improved training programs, and innovative solutions to ensure the continued effectiveness and resilience of public works departments.

Notable Quote:
A [83:51]: "Yeah. It is such a thankless role, but so essential."

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the complexities and critical importance of public works, offering valuable insights for both seasoned professionals and those considering a career in this vital sector.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor. And at this point we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest workwear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, ariat.com Dirttalk that is ariat.com DirttALK When I was out in Australia over the holidays, the big thing on Boxing Day, which isn't a thing in the States, but.

[B]

Oh no, my thing for my boys.

[A]

Okay. Oh yeah. So this 26th, which Premier League, man.

[B]

That'S where it's at.

[A]

I don't, I don't. Yeah, I don't understand why the 26th is the big deal, but whatever. So 26, they have a yacht race from Sydney to Hobart, Tasmania.

[B]

Oh yes.

[A]

And they run it every year. They've done it for decades. And I knew nothing about any of this. Yeah, it's a big deal and it was really nice. Cause the people I was with, they were super knowledgeable about it. So I could ask all the dumb questions and they could explain it all. But just the how fast those boats go using the wind is mind boggling.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Just how big they are and it's really deceiving on the. But you see the speed on and you can you have like a tracker. Seeing them come into, coming to Tasmania just, it's just remarkable. Just using. It's just like just straight physics. That's all we're doing here. And we're getting from here to there using the wind. And I know that's how we used to do everything right, but seeing it nowadays is just mind boggling.

[B]

It's that. So that's another Zen place for me so I can get it when I get onto a sailboat. It's just you're out there, you're using nature and you're just cruising on the ocean and your mind just, everything just goes away.

[A]

Is there sailing in Boston, will they sail on the river or they just.

[B]

Row on the river? So Harvard, Boston University, Northeastern, they all have teams and they all race on the Charles. So they'll race right there. Yep. Mit, they all have a team, they'll do sculling, they'll do the rowing and then they'll also have the races and then there's A lot of racing in Massachusetts Bay.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And then in Buzzards Bay, which is on the southern side of Cape Cod. Buzzards Bay race week is huge. And you'll have not boats as extreme as what you would have done in the Sydney to Hobart race. But then there's the Newport to Bermuda race, which is very similar, which is a hell of an experience. And that was something that I would have loved to have done when I was probably your age, but I just. I just. I missed it.

[A]

How long does that take them to get out to Bermuda?

[B]

Good question.

[A]

That's quite a ways out there.

[B]

It's a little ways out there, but that's a. It's a very similar race where you can, you know, you can get into Mother Nature and, you know, depending on what's going on out there in the middle of the ocean, it can get interesting.

[A]

Yeah. They said one year, this boat that they know. Well, they're somewhat related. The boat hit a sunfish, which is this massive fish.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it broke the keel. The keel, yep. Just broke it.

[B]

Was that the Murdoch family? Because I know that The Murdoch family. Rupert Murdoch, the Fox, you know, Fox News.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Murdoch's son, like, his boat, had a real accident.

[A]

Really?

[B]

They had a major accident.

[A]

Well, it's not uncommon. And then people will go overboard and they just won't find people. Just the whole thing is just.

[B]

It's the Pacific.

[A]

It's just silly. Yeah. It's not something I would do, but, man, it was a really serious deal, that. And then cricket, which goes for five days after Christmas.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. It's one match for five days, which I still. I can't explain anything about it. I can't explain why it's five days, but it's five days.

[B]

We just started having cricket. There's so 30% of the population in Lexington, Massachusetts, where I work, is Indian. 30% is Asian.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And then 40% is everyone else. So there's two cricket leagues. It's just a really popular sport with.

[A]

The Indian people and Indian culture playing Australia.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's so, like, we convert fields for cricket.

[A]

That's one of the most surprising things going back, like we were saying, like I was telling you at dinner last night. So I grew up going to Boston every summer. We would fly into Logan. We would. You know, once the tunnel was. Was. Was done, we'd drive under the. Under the tunnel.

[B]

Ted Williams tunnel.

[A]

Yeah. Under the bay there, or. Yeah, under the. Yeah, yeah. The harbor. Yep. And then we'd go through the city and Then we'd go either to Rhode island or to the Cape.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So I'd been around Boston a lot, but only as a kid. And then I went back as an adult. My friend, he was at MIT for a brief amount of time for grad school. I ran Boston Marathon. So I've been there a few times as an adult. It's incredible how diverse that city is. There's just people from all over the place. And you forget about that. You do. It's wild because of the. You have the universities, you have the biotech firms, you have these financial institutions. There's just a huge hub up there that you forget about almost.

[B]

Well, so the other thing that is a huge oversight is we have the best hospitals in the world.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So we had an incident with one of our kids and we were at Boston Children's, which is known around the world, and we went and saw a team of doctors and we were there. And half of that room in that waiting room were. Were kids from other countries in the world. And it's because this is where it's at. And you talk about the universities. There's hundreds of thousands of kids that come in from September to May, right. And there's a lot of them just. They'll just plant their roots right there and they stay. And that's what's created the diversity in the metro Boston area. Right. So because like you said, the pharmaceuticals, all those tech companies, all the biotech companies, I mean, there's really not much space left in metro Boston for new buildings. They built up the seaport. Right. And you're dropping it and you're rebuilding and I mean, I can't tell you how many. And that started back. So after the dig kind of started slowing down. That's where I was on the dig. And then all of a sudden it was all of the larger buildings that were going in and it was just top down or up down. And it was like parking is a premium. So everybody was doing anywhere from three to five level underground parking structures. And you're throwing the structural steel up at the same time. And I was working at a project right next to the Four Point. They underpinned the brick facade because it was historical. You know, you got a 374 maxed out. And he's hitting an old dry dock that's next to the four point channel because we were pre trenching for the, you know, we were like pre trenching for the slurry walls, right? And he all of a sudden hits timbers. And of course there it's like the stuff that you find is just absolutely amazing in Boston because a lot of it was filled in. You know, there's all of.

[A]

It's filled in.

[B]

So much urban fill there. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So it was fortunate to be. To cut my teeth in that area of the country where there was just so many different scenarios to go through, you know?

[A]

Well, the Big Dig, too, I think it's a good example of, like, everything gone wrong in an infrastructure project. It's just when you look into just how wrong it went, it's really remarkable. Just the cost overruns, schedule, all that. But it did transform that city probably more than any other American city has been transformed in the modern era over the past 30 years, 20 years. It's a completely different city after that project.

[B]

It is. It is beautiful now. It really is. For the people that saw it before and after, there's just no comparison. And it really did. They said it was a landscaped. It was a structure that literally broke the city in half. Right. It was just. You had this barrier. You were either on one side of the artery or the other side of the artery.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And to just all of a sudden connect it, it's just. It's. I mean, I go in there now and they're still building new stuff there, and it's. It's beautiful. It really is.

[A]

Yeah. For people that aren't familiar with Big Dig, the rough gist is the giant highway urban sprawl in the middle of the city.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The idea was, let's just put it all underground, depress it, get rid of all of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they did that and then open up new, you know, build new bridges out of the city. And the tunnel. Ted Williams Tunnel under the harbor to get to the airport, like, so there was a lot to it. It was a super complex project.

[B]

Right. And what's really interesting is watching some of the other projects that are unfolding right now. And you showcased a recent project where they had a casting basin and they're making tunnel structures, and then they're floating them out.

[A]

They're casting them in a factory and then floating it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they did.

[B]

They did that, and they did that in Boston.

[A]

Similar.

[B]

So they had the casting basin. Right. And they did that across Four Point Channel, which was an amazing feat in itself. They froze the soil underneath Salt Station because there was all the rail that was there, you know, and that was a phenomenal project in itself. And then they froze it and they jacked that section. Right. And then they built. So there's The Third Harbor Tunnel. The Ted Williams Tunnel. That's the Third Harbor Tunnel because then you have the Callahan and Sumner tunnels, which are over by the north end.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And I was fortunate enough to be on that project. That was. The project lead was J.F. white, but it was a joint venture. And that project we actually had, we basically built on off ramps, you would say, for two tunnels underground. So it was almost like a cloverleaf underground that you had to build underneath everything. And you say to yourself, like, that's pretty nuts.

[A]

Oh, you're in the middle of the city.

[B]

And you're in the middle of the city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know when you all of a sudden you watch it come together and you just say to yourself, like, this is really cool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that must have been.

[B]

And I was your age when this was all happening. And I'm just sitting there saying, I kind of like, between that and some of the other projects I've worked on, I kind of got spoiled at a young age because I had to drive half an hour to 40 minutes to see all this crazy technology. And we were trying so many new things here. And it was in my backyard, so I'm really lucky to be part of that.

[A]

Well, and that's when I talk to younger people, it's like, hey, if you're in your 20s and you have the ability to go travel, to go work on one of those big infrastructure projects, I would go do that if I were you.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Because that's really just like a once in a lifetime opportunity for a lot of people. And you get to learn so much. Just the big stuff, it just moves at a different pace. The scale's different, equipment's different, logistics are different, materials are different, methodology is different. Everything about it, staff and. Oh, it just.

[B]

It.

[A]

Yeah. If you can get on one of those major infrastructure projects, do it.

[B]

But to add another layer to what you just said, when you also think about how you decide to go someplace else and you go out of your comfort zone.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

So that was when I was talking about that project I did down in Texas. I didn't know anybody in Texas. I didn't know any. I didn't have any contacts in Austin, Texas. So when we went down there with the divers for JF White and we did this, you know, sewer tunnel inspection and then did that emergency liner removal project and you know, we were on our own and we like, it was okay, sink or swim, right? You had to build all your own. You had to build all your own relationships and you just had to do it all from scratch. We had great support back at the home office, but we were in control of our own destiny there. And to do that, I can't say enough that that was a phenomenal experience for me to grow in, just take a chance and just really dig in and really get back to my core abilities to make myself successful and to make the project successful and make the people that you're working with successful. You need to get out of your comfort zone. And I think you've done it through and through with everything that you've been working on too. Right. You can't always, like, you should have a backup plan, but you gotta push it.

[A]

Yeah. But even, like, I feel like, especially in your 20s, there's not a lot of risk involved unless you already have two kids and a mortgage and a family, which most people don't. And even then, the risk is probably not that substantial in the grand scheme of things. I just think, yeah, too many people are focused on, well, how do I achieve balance and work life, this and that. It's like, hey, no, throw all that out the window. Just send it. Just say yes to every opportunity. Go wherever you can work, wherever you can work, however much you can work with different people, go to different companies, Just try to just try stuff out. Right, right. People, oftentimes, they get so caught up in mitigating this risk that doesn't really exist. It's like, no, no, no. You're what?

[B]

Don't overthink it.

[A]

Yeah. You're 24 years old.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Move to a different state, you know, go. Go work in a different country. That's one of the cool things about, like, Europe, for example. Everybody's worked in different countries. And I know it's a little bit easier there than in the United States, but even in Australia or everywhere else, I feel like a lot of other people are much better traveled than in America. But it's like, okay, yeah, we build stuff in America. Would I say we build the biggest stuff or best stuff? I don't necessarily think so. There's some crazy projects around the world that are hiring people that need people, and you can figure it out. Like, it. Sometimes it's difficult to figure it out, but if you want to figure it out, you'll figure it out.

[B]

Right, right, right. I've tried a lot of different things. And, like, what we were talking about last night, I mean, I'm almost 50, 50, with my heavy civil career and my public career. Right. And I still have the same core values. I still have the same determination. It's just I'm in a different environment with different challenges and I've had different successes.

[A]

How did you go from the world of heavy civil to a municipality?

[B]

Yeah. So like we were talking about last night, you know, the heavy civil business in Boston was amazing and I was having a great time and it just, in the early 2000s things just started getting a little crazy. And there was a couple of occasions where I was taught by the old school people where you do it on a handshake, right. And I was always working as a sub to the cms and there was a couple of times where working side by side with the CM superintendent and he goes, hey, can you just take care of this for me? And I'm like, hey, listen, I'll take care of it for you. But you remember you got me pressed. This is Critical path, I want to take care of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you do both? Yeah, I can do both. And then all of a sudden we fall slightly behind on critical path and we have in the meeting and then the CM super just looks at this project manager and says, yeah, well he's falling behind. I said, yeah, but you had me do X, Y and Z too, remember that? You didn't have to do that. And as soon as I got that vibe I was like, it's gotta be something better out there, you know, but that's, you know, that's also the life of a sub, right? You gotta be in working. Growing up as a, you know, in a family construction business, we were a GC and then as I was getting older I worked for other companies where we were either self performing but there was other times where we were sub too. So I've seen both sides of that. I've seen the sides of being an owner, I've seen the sides of being a sub, seen the sides of being a general contractor and tried to take all the best from all of those. And then when the economy really started getting nasty, my dad was a public works director and he was a very successful public works director. Fifteen years after our family business closed, he went into the public sector and he said, listen, he's like, there's some really, really great opportunities in the public sector. He said, and they're looking for really good people. He's like, you should really take a look at it. He said, there's a really nice life work balance. And my wife was a couple of, she was just about ready to give birth to our oldest who's just turned 15. I looked at it and started doing some interviews and There were some really good opportunities. And that was 15 years ago.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like I said though, the Challengers are completely different from the heavy civil. And do I miss some of the organized chaos and some of the, the drive and just the adrenaline flowing? I'd be lying if I told you I didn't miss that sometimes. Right. Because you know how it is when you're out there on the site and there's so much going on and you're just caught up in it. Right. But nowadays I just have other things that just motivate me. I'm heavily involved in the, in the community that I work in right now and I do a lot and I've always, I just, I still operate the same that I did as in the private civil business. I'm very responsible with anything that we're doing. I'm always trying to find the best mousetrap to build and always looking at innovation and putting in a lot of time and effort into whether it's the County Highway Association, American Public Works association, chapter level, national level. I'm finding other avenues to channel all of that energy that I still have from the heavy civil days. I started the consulting business in 2019 and then being a husband and father of two boys, 13 and 15, I don't think I can take much more on my plate right now.

[A]

It's interesting because frankly I've never, when I was in my brief time in construction and even now, I've very, very rarely paid any attention or given any thought to the public sector. I'm in private world, but all the private companies work for the government ultimately in some capacity. Even if it's a private development, there's a deal with the government somewhere, a.

[B]

Grant or something to build that building.

[A]

Or you got to get permits to build, building or do whatever, you name it. The government's involved in some capacity somehow. This industry is very, very dependent upon the US government, state governments, so the fed, state and then local, county, city and then municipalities where you're at and you just almost forget about that. And like you said, it's working for the big civil contractors doing the big work. It's sexy. I'd say it's sexier.

[B]

Oh, it's extremely exciting.

[A]

Yes, it's more exciting.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

But there are dark sides to it that people, I don't think talk enough about. And that's the oftentimes non existent work life balance.

[B]

Because a 40 hour work week is non existent.

[A]

Yeah, right, right.

[B]

No vacation.

[A]

No vacation. And even if you have vacation time, you're going to feel bad for taking it. They're going to give you grief for taking it. The project schedule is all jacked up, so you can't take it whatever it is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The stress just. The lifestyle is really harsh. Sometimes the work is two hours away or you're working perfectly against traffic. And so it's not two hours away, but it is because of traffic at a place like Boston.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So you're spending three, four hours in the car every day rather than being with your family. It's harsh and it is abrasive. And while it may be awesome in your 20s, you start to get into your 30s like you were, and you start to have kids and your life changes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The appeal of having something, you know, you don't have to drive to the next project.

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, where you have a, you have, you have, you have a boundary. Yeah. So you work in the same place every day. You're working for the government, which is very stable.

[B]

Yep. I know where my paycheck's coming from. Everywhere.

[A]

Know where your paycheck's coming from. You probably have an awesome retirement deal.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's decent. It is. You know, and I think the biggest thing is in Massachusetts for us, you get post retirement health insurance as well. Once you hit 10 years, you're vested and you get post retirement health insurance until. For you and your spouse. Until you're. Till you're dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which if you've talked to anybody who has to deal with post retirement health insurance, you know, Medicare, it's big money. Right. You know, the Medicare doesn't take care of everything. Yeah. And we talked about this last night. I look at it as, it's a. I have a road project every fiscal year. It's another. It's a $15 million road project that I have every year. Right. And then I have, you know, road. I have road maintenance. I got water and sewer fleet parks, cemetery, forestry, composting. Right. So in snow operations. Right.

[A]

So it's like, it's like a $15 million business.

[B]

It's like a $15 million business with 50, like, trade staff. And then we have another like 15 staff of office staff. So it's a company of 70 that's, that's working in the same job every year and reporting to the same place. But one thing that I've been thinking about this and I told you I testified on the DEP for this electrification challenges that we're having in Massachusetts. And I made a point to say that public works doesn't advocate enough for themselves. And we don't. And I finally think I figured out the main reason why is because we don't want people to see us. Because we are the people that are out there managing the infrastructure that people just. If you want, like when you wake up in the morning, you brush your teeth, you turn on the water, you want the water flowing, you want to flush the toilet, you want the toilet flushed, you don't think about it after that. You want to get into your truck, you want to drive to work, you want the road to be safe, free of snow and ice or free of debris, you're walking to your bus station or you're walking to the train. You want the sidewalks clean. You don't want to be tripping over anything. The only time that people see us is when we have a detour.

[A]

A water main's broken or a water.

[B]

Main'S broken or a sewer main's broken. And for us, that's negative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's kind of a double edged sword for us. We've been talking in the industry about advocating for who we are and what we do, but I think the big reason why is because we've been so used to just literally operating in the shadows, making sure that nobody sees us. Because everybody just wants it done and they just want everything to function. They want the grass cut in the park so they can take their kids and they can run around. They want the trees trimmed. They don't want a hazard tree hanging out in a park that could fall on somebody any day. Like, we're just doing it just because.

[A]

Well, and you're not. Yeah. People aren't coming to you and, you know. Thank you so much. I showered this morning. The water worked perfect when I flushed the toilet. Everything worked flawlessly. I really appreciate what you guys do. Thank you. Here's some cookies. Like, I. Maybe every once in a while someone will bring cookies by, but no, we do have.

[B]

Especially during the holidays.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, that's quite nice.

[B]

There's a lot of people. It's the work hard mentality and play hard mentality that people will say in Lexington, we gotta work really hard for them because they demand a very high level of service, but they're willing to give us what we need in order to achieve that. We have amazing support from our constituents and our customers and the public officials. Like that goes a long way to get done what we need to get done.

[A]

But I suppose you hear more when things aren't working well. It's kind of like law enforcement. Law enforcement's in such A just a terrible position in society because no one's excited when they're there, like when they're showing up. It's probably not a good thing. There's probably an accident or, you know, someone stabbed or I don't know what it is. But they're not there because everything's great and they're there to high five everybody. There's a problem somewhere to figure out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's kind of the position you guys are in is you hear about the problems more often than when everything's. If everything's going well, that's just the expectation. But as you know, there's a lot that goes into that. But I think it's really interesting because if you think about it, if you really think about it, the quality of an economy is based on its infrastructure. There's a direct correlation to that. And our economy is built upon these cities, counties, municipalities that all maintain and upgrade that infrastructure. So you could argue that the United States is really built upon people in teams like yours that are making sure the community has the water it needs, has the access it needs. With the roads plowed, with the recreational facilities, the toilets working, everything like that. That's what you're doing. It's a really important role. But you guys haven't talked about it. No one thinks about it. I don't even. I should be thinking about it. I'm sitting here.

[B]

You should be thinking about it.

[A]

I'm so guilty. I don't pay City of Nashville a single thought in my day, even though I'm in this world. And this is where, like, this is a really important job, really important role. And I know municipalities are missing people just as bad as contractors are, just as bad as the private sector is.

[B]

You mean like labor shortages?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's the same labor pool for all of us.

[A]

Same labor pool.

[B]

Same labor pool.

[A]

And the contractors can pay better.

[B]

Yes, they can.

[A]

Private sector can almost always pay better. However you have what they don't. You're just going to work here. You're just going to work these hours.

[B]

But there's overtime too. Like you can do really well.

[A]

There are other opportunities, but. But I think there's significant value in that proposition for a lot of people. So it's just interesting. Cause it's not talked about very much.

[B]

No, it's not. And this is where. So it's a great segue into talking about how we all got together. Right. So the operations. So I was asked to sit on this Operations and Maintenance subcommittee for American Public Work Works association, which is the largest public works association in the country. And we were all talking about what are our challenges with our staff. And we were talking about. So there was some challenges with CDL getting CDL licenses and we got through that challenge. And then there was. Okay, so like labor shortages and succession planning and in training. And I think you know this more than anybody with some of the younger people that are inside the. I'll say heavy civil. Well, I'll just say heavy civil industry. They're not getting the same training that they used to. And I think you're doing a hell of a job trying to fill that gap. Right. And that all of a sudden attracted me because here I am, I'm always looking outside the box, outside my comfort zone. Because sometimes the private sector, they might be ahead on something. Right. So that gravitated me to look at. Okay, I got to look. What's this training opportunity here? Right. I need to see if this is a good overlap for us because we need the same training. We do very similar work now. It's similar. Okay. So we're not necessarily pouring a lot of concrete and we're not putting down, we're not pouring. We don't have a three or a 4,000 yard pour or a thousand feet of water line up or a couple of miles of water line or throwing down 2,000 tons of mix, you know. No, but we're still doing all of that work, but it's on a much smaller level, which requires the same skill sets. It's just at a smaller level, it's non production work. Right. But what I always look at is on the public sector, we don't want non. We're not production driven. We need to be quality driven because usually we're doing a repair to someone who's already done a major capital project project and improved what we've had. So if we have to rip open a street for a water break and that road was paved two years ago, I want a really, really good repair because I want the rest of that road to stay intact. Right.

[A]

You should talk to the folks in Nashville. I don't think figured that one out yet.

[B]

So that's like we always try and get everybody the right tools to do the job and give them the right training because we want them to be high quality. Right. And that's where I can kind of see and like, you know, what are the similarities between the heavy civil and like you and I talked about this last night, you know, the nomadic environment of having to travel where the work is. Right. So we can offer that opportunity of not having to travel where the work is, you travel the same distance every day, you report at the same time, you have a better work life balance. Now, does that mean that you're not going to have to pull some crazy shifts? Now if you're in the northern section of the country, you're going to have to deal with snow and ice operations. Right. If you're in the southern part of the country or on the coastline, there's hurricanes, but then in the Midwest you're dealing with tornadoes. So emergency like natural disasters, Public works is always right there when police and fire need to get out and respond to an issue. You're going to see Public works pushing through a tree that may have been downed, plowing the two feet of snow so the ambulance can get to the medical response. This is where we are right there with all the other first responders in dealing with these natural disasters. Right.

[A]

Well, it's in the headlines right now.

[B]

In California with the dozers that are.

[A]

Well, the dozers are Cal Fire and the fire agencies like LA County. But one of the big headlines is water. Right now in LA county with the water, the fire department's only as good as a hydrant and access to water. They've had massive problems with access to water. And it's, it's, it's weird seeing it be used as like this political wedge right now by people that don't understand how municipal water works. But it's like in the, a lot of these areas are up in the hills, so they're serviced by water tanks because water you need, you need head pressure for, for water to flow. It's, it's at pressure.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But if you're up on a hill, you either have to pump it all the way up there or you pump it up to a tank that then is a few million gallons or whatever it is that can distribute it down below the tank.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, the tanks ran empty pretty damn quick.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So then cause of this massive requirement of water to fight the fires. But then people are like, well, it's because the reservoirs are this and that and they got rid of these dams and the dams were gotten rid of. And in Oregon, it's a completely different state, completely different watershed, not even similar, but it's like these people are just, they're showing their ignorance through these criticisms. It's like, no, no, no, this isn't, this isn't what's going on. But my point is in all of this LA county, the municipality, the government workers, they're front and center in this.

[B]

They'Re front and center. And you're right. And listen, I mean, I have. I was fortunate enough to develop great relationships with the fire and police staff. So the senior managers in both fire and police were. We were all at one time the same level. And we've all been slowly working up there. The current fire chief and the current police chief, I have great relationships with them. And when it hits the fan, it's like the phone call comes in. It's like, hey, we need to say, can we take care of this? Can you get on this right away? And it's like, yeah, sure, no problem. We're on it. Right? In working side by side with them, I've been in some really interesting situations. We had an accident where somebody bypassed safety on a skid steer plowing snow. So they had an engine fire and they bypassed the safety on the seat. And the guy in the skid steer opened up the door and was talking to the shovelers. And as he opened the door, he hit a lever and the arms raised and his arms were caught in between the cab and the arms. His arms were caught between the hoist arms and the cap.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

And they dispatched my fleet foreman and I got there too. We were in the middle of a nasty snowstorm too. And the captain, he's now the fire chief and he was the captain at the time and we're dealing with this and this dude is screaming at the top of his lungs in pain and highway form and ISA in there.

[A]

What.

[B]

Do you need us to do? He's like, we have to relieve the pressure in the pistons to lower the arms. So myself and personally and my fleet foreman, we bled pistons and you want to talk about a situation, I'm never going to forget that. But when you talk about don't put on your seatbelt or just don't worry about it. It's going to be fine. Yeah, like you do not ever want to see that again. And thankfully we got that in time. The guy still kept his arms. But I don't. I mean, he probably doesn't have much strength. But this is where working side by side, it's like, and I think I was telling you last night, like, we're kind of a catch all with a lot of things. You know, we have a very large staff and our staff is very, very. We're capable of doing a lot of just variations of what, whatever, because that's what we have to do. We need to accommodate whatever's going on. Right. And this is across the country too. Right. And I think I told you. Like, the lovely state of Massachusetts has 351 different sets of laws, while the rest of the country works off of county and state government, but we have to work off of 351.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

But for. For us, the point where I was going with the first responders, we really. Across the country, we've been promoting this more and more, and I think we're finally getting there where we're all in it together kind of thing, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those LA Public works people right now. And I know there's a water authority out there too.

[A]

Yeah, it's like so convoluted up there.

[B]

I know. And all we're seeing is police and fire. But don't get me wrong, the public works people, they're pulling just as many hours and they're probably doing just as much. Whether there's road closures or debris cleanup and downed trees or trying to get. Trying to work valves in order to build pressure to get enough pressure to a certain hydrant. And they're playing with valves and they're trying to balance the system. There's all kinds of other people. And again, we're kind of in the shadows doing the same. We're out there working just as hard as everybody else. And I'm not trying to take anything away from the other. The firefighters or the other police or anyone else.

[A]

You're part of the team, but we're.

[B]

Part of the team. But again, it goes back to. We're just the ones that are always in the shadows of. Just call dbw, have them take care of it, call Public Works, just have them get on it and we'll be able to get to what we need to get to. Right.

[A]

I think it's really interesting, though, because I think 2020 was a really good thing and a really bad thing. But it's interesting because it's created a ton. The years after 2020 have created a ton of mistrust in the medical system, myself included, and a ton of mistrust. And some of the stuff that's happened after, like a genuine, just hatred of the federal government and just the government as a whole of the United States. And people just lump in the government as the government, just one entity. And I saw. It's been really interesting to see. We went to North Carolina after Helene a few months after and saw a civil contractor rebuilding some roads out there. And these people were on the ground day one, working alongside the municipality and the local government, the state government, to get this community back on its feet. And they were Extremely complimentary of everybody within the government. Everybody within the government. But then you go, put it online. And I've heard the discourse as well, in general about just the hatred for the government, how little the government did because they sent $700 federal government to people in the area, which is true, while they were sending hundreds of billions of dollars other places. But it's so black, and it's looked at just as black and white. It's like, well, no, no, no, no. Okay, maybe the federal government did that, but there were so many people in the government there, and they've been there since day one, working just as hard as everybody else to get the community back on their feet. And we look at the government, too, from, like, a bloat standpoint. Like, you look at the government, the US Government is the biggest organization to ever be on planet Earth. It is, but absurd if you really start to consider the scale of it. And a lot of it is probably unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But people that make sure your sewer is working properly, make sure your road's plowed, your park's good to go, your water's good to go. Like, that's the part of government.

[B]

That.

[A]

Is so essential, it's never going away. We need that part of government so, so desperately. And we don't realize it until there's a big snowstorm and we can't get out of our damn houses until the snowplow comes by.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Which is nice.

[B]

And then it's, thank you so much for doing that. That's just. And, you know, we. We all come together and we get it done, and we have a great staff. And again, there's a lot of. And like I've told you, I'm involved in some of these other committees. And we got people I talk to. I have colleagues in Alaska. I have colleagues in Minnesota, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont.

[A]

How many members of the APWA are there?

[B]

Okay, so APWA is hovering in, like, 30, 35,000. But as I explained to you. Well, yeah, but the funny thing is, we talked about this last night. That's only the people that are members. Right. And when you think about the people that are actually performing the work and just do simple math. Assume that each of those 35,000 people have a staff of 10. Now you're at 350,000.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is, like. That's not even scratching the surface. You know, we have a staff of. Now, granted, our APWA membership, we grew, we bought, like, a organization membership, and we have quite a few people that are involved in it. Right. But we have 70 staff total, and we probably have 10 people that are heavily involved in APWA because they're senior to middle management. But when you think about that other 60, well, 50 of them are the trades. What kind of programs can we offer to them? And this is where we've. That O and M subcommittee is. The Operations and Maintenance subcommittee is looking of. We need to get back to the grassroots of where we need to train, because those are the people that are potentially our future middle and senior managers that are coming up through the ranks. Right. Those are the people that need to get the training right now. And we need to bring them in and get them included in what needs to be done. And this is where, hoping that I can talk to you about this on this podcast, is where maybe we can even grab some people who have been kind of maybe on the fence about whether or not they should commit to the public works sector because they've been doing the private, heavy civil. There's a lot of opportunities there because it's just like. And it's no different than anywhere. If you want a better work life balance and you really want to, like, you really want to get into something else, but not get completely out of this field. There's opportunities. Well, and a lot of opportunities.

[A]

And you're still working with the public sector companies because you have your budget, but then there's still the capital improvement budget for your area, bigger projects, road reconstructions, waterline replacement, whatever it is.

[B]

So, Aaron, all those people, whether you're talking about a DOT or a county, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think about how many of those people that are actually construction inspectors who are managing the heavy civil contractors that you go visit, or they're a resident engineer. We have vacancies across the board everywhere.

[A]

But I feel like that training is really important too, because I still feel like. And beyond the problem I just talked about with perception, like, the government doesn't always have a rosy Persona, especially with how many people I've heard frustrated with engineers, city engineers, whatever it is, and then inspectors as well. Inspectors and engineers do not have a good reputation at all, at all. Very, like, very rarely have I heard somebody say, you know what? The engineer, just phenomenal. Unbelievable. We had a great time. This inspector couldn't have been better. We worked together great. We got the job done. Everybody's smiling. Usually it's a lot of expletives, so on and so forth, which, which does. But that does nobody any good because everybody's on the same team, right? Like, hey, we're all trying to get this project done to improve the life of the people in Lexington, for example. Yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're trying to support our families while we do it like anybody else is. And I think training is a part of that, especially for these younger engineers, younger inspectors, because they're. They just. They don't know any better to, like, walk up to a job site looking like they just got out of the office with their dress shoes on or whatever it is, like, just doing themselves no favors. And then, like you said in your story, you told me earlier, telling the contractor, well, this is how it's gonna be, because this is what the plans say, and I'm the engineer, and it's my stamp on it or whatever it is. It's like, how's that gonna go? How's that gonna go? And so I think that's one of the most important applications of training is even just how to communicate better, how to work with one another better, how to resolve conflicts. That's the kind of stuff that I think is really missing, especially as these older guys age out.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that's the kind of stuff that can make a great project or make a project absolutely. Hell, like, just one bad relationship like that can poison the whole. Well, Right.

[B]

So, you know, it's funny, as we've been talking and, you know, I. I took a lot of time to review, I think I was telling you last night, I went through. And I was looking at all the videos that you have on your training module. Right. And I was looking at. Okay, so which of these videos can we overlap with the public works industry? Right. And it didn't just hit me until now. There's this guy that taught my oldest son how to play lacrosse. My son had never. Like, I didn't play lacrosse. My son's a pretty good lacrosse player right now. Right. And this guy was. He's a. What do you call. He's like a classic. They'd say he's a classic instructor. And he's very, very. He was very stringent with teaching these core techniques to the players. If you can master these core techniques, then you can do whatever on the field. And my son actually took that to heart, and now he's got variations, but it's those core techniques, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you think about some of the stuff and some of the content that's on your website, it's very basic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But if you don't understand what the basic core techniques are to shoot Grades. To put pipe in the ground, to grade whatever it is, you're not going to know whether or not you're putting the project together correctly or, like somebody's trying to cut corners.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or it's just that simple.

[A]

Communicate with people.

[B]

Communication. And I know you have a lot of stuff and a lot of videos in there about communication. Right. But just like, the basics. Right. It goes a long way. I mean, everybody says if you want to put pipe in the ground, you want to do it the right way. You got to control your water. Right. Well, it's easier said than done sometimes. I mean, sometimes you got to do well points. But as far as making sure that as you're moving the trench box, you're also. You gotta make sure that your supervisor's planning ahead and has that sump deep enough so as you progress, you don't run out of space that day. You have to continue. Like, you have to be thinking about it all the time. You just can't say it's good enough. And you gotta consistently be thinking ahead. Like, you need forward thinking, right?

[A]

Yeah. We focused on the basics because we've identified that's what's lacking, that's what's needed the most. And every time someone says, well, it's too basic, it's just like, I almost want to slap them. I haven't slapped anybody, but I want to slap them because. Or at least they're the ones I know. Like, ooh, I'm going to stay away from you. Because there's no sense of humility here. Or there's no. Like, you haven't been out to the field in the past year. Like, you haven't talked to anybody that actually works out in the field. Because anybody that knows anything knows that the basics and especially from a communication standpoint are what are just completely gone. Especially with the next generation coming in and it's only getting worse. It's not like. I mean, especially once we get, like, 10 years down the road, then you've got the generation that just grew up on iPads and doing online school.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Come into the workforce. I don't even know what that's gonna look. No one knows what that's gonna look like.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Like, they're not even gonna know how to talk to people, how to shake someone's hand, this and that. And it's like me as an employer, I can either complain about it and have nothing change and just be mad about it all the time, like just. Just turn into some grumpy asshole, or I can say, man, they don't know how to introduce themselves. I should probably teach them that, because no one has. No one will. And if I don't, they're not gonna learn it. And it sounds so simple. And it sounds like I'm treating people like children, but it's like, no, no, no. Because I'm in the same boat. I don't know these basics. I need to learn these basics. And it's just reality. It's just like, they don't know how to communicate. They don't know how to write. They don't know how to shake someone's hand. They don't know how to look someone in the eye. They don't know how to tell someone their name. Like, they don't know this, but it's not their fault.

[B]

How about a signature?

[A]

A signature? Oh, my father would just give me so much shit for my signature. He would degrade me over my signature because it just.

[B]

Yeah, but they don't teach cursive anymore. No.

[A]

And he's a lawyer, so it's like his signature is everything that is the most important thing. And his entire career is that signature. I could give a shit.

[B]

You see, for me, but, like, I'm a little bit older than you, but that's, like, part of my identity.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because I developed that on my own.

[A]

Especially as an engineer, too. You have it on your stamp?

[B]

Oh, I don't know. I don't have a stamp.

[A]

Well, but I mean, it's like, it is a big deal, especially in the engineering world, too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If you're a PE or stamp, it's on every document you put together.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Right. Right. Yeah. No, it's really unique. And we just. We're working. We're trying out a new product right now. So there's a lot happening in stormwater these days, especially up in the Boston area. And there's a lot of, like, phosphate control. And, you know, we have different watersheds, and they're watching everything, and they're watching all these different levels. And our town, the engineering division, is very much on top of this. And then all of a sudden, it's okay, these regs are coming out from EPA. This is our MS.4 stormwater permit. Here's what we need to absorb now. So now all of a sudden, it's given to me, and then I have to distribute this to highway drain staff. I have to distribute it to the. To the park staff because there could be fertilization challenges or restrictions. Well, as we're going through all this, we're looking at New ways to come up with some of these requirements. Right. Because all of the street sweepings now have to like, we have to track how many tons of sweepings we pick up every year and then certain times of the year. So this has to be date stamped. So we're looking at this. So there's this really, this AVL technology where we can get breadcrumbs of where the street sweeper sweeps. And now I'm looking at. I talked to the AVL vendor. I was like, well, can you put a load sensor on my hopper for the street sweeper? So then we can figure out how many tons are picked up in say, the Charles river watershed. Because they're going to stay in the Charles river watershed. I said, instead of me having to separate the pile because I don't have a bin specific for Charles river, then we can just know how many tons we pick up. And that's really cool tech. But then I was talking to the street sweeper up there. He goes, so can I get a tablet inside the sweeper so I can see where I'm going? Because I don't want to miss a street. And he's a younger guy. And I said, yeah, sure, we can do that. And then all of a sudden it was, can you put it in my truck too? Because when I'm treating with salt, I don't want to miss a street either. Can we just put tablets in all the trucks? Because we got eight trucks that spread liquid, whether it's winter liquid or salt. So this is where. Yeah, that's a no brainer. Yeah, sure, we'll do that. So again, the communication of just ask the question. Like, you never know what? Like, yeah, sure, we can do that. That's not a huge expense for us in the bottom line.

[A]

Yeah, but so easily. You could also, you could just say, shut up, kid.

[B]

Yeah, oh, easily I could do that. But wait a second, I'm like, I like this because they initially thought that the AVL idea was a Big brother thing and it's like, oh, you want to see what I'm doing? And I'm like, no, it's a tool for you.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

So I've kind of let them digest it and now it's, oh, well, I can use it this way. Can I have it? Yeah, sure, you can have it, no problem. But it's the communication, right? And you need to stay engaged with your staff. You have to. Otherwise I always say it's like, you know, you get the calls from the ivory tower of just do it. Because I Said so. Well, that doesn't work out. Well.

[A]

No, but that, I would say is the standard method. Companies aren't gonna put that on their website, but I'd say that's most of them. I would say that's most of them. Especially from a government standpoint, too. You have every right to say, cause I said so.

[B]

I always explain it to them.

[A]

But yes, because that's so much more effective. And even when you explain stuff, sometimes you have to explain it seven times over or say the same thing to seven different people. But it's always worthwhile in the grand scheme of things to just explain it. Explain. And if they're not understanding it, that's on me. That's my fault. That's right. Something is being lost here. I'm not explaining it thoroughly enough. I'm not explaining it in the right context in the right form format. It might be a conversation in person. It might be a phone call, it might be a email, it might be a text message. It might be a handout.

[B]

Yeah, no, our work orders, we still have paperwork orders and we may give it to them. And they look at and be like, really? And I look at them and say, listen, I don't like it as much as you don't like it, but they told us that they need us to take care of it and that at me. And they're like, but I said, listen, I already went to bat for us, and I still. And I got the. And I'll go up to my. Go up to my boss's office. I'll say, listen, I'm protesting this one. Just like a bid. I'm protesting this. Like, you gotta tell me something else about this. And he will go through the talk, and I'll be like, this isn't a good idea. And he'll say, duly noted. Now can you go get it done? And I'll be like, okay, fine. But then there's other times where he'll be like, listen, okay, let me go back. Sometimes it's, yeah, that went away. Or other times it's, you got to get it done.

[A]

What do. So you've talked about. Keep sweeping streets, water lines, sewer parks, snow plowing. What do the cemetery people do?

[B]

So they actually stay quite busy. Believe it or not, it's a staff of three, actually four, including the administrative assistant or the department clerk that's in the. We have a nice beautiful new cemetery building. But there's a foreman, there's an assistant foreman, and then there's a heavy equipment operator.

[A]

Was it a community cemetery?

[B]

Yeah, we actually have. So we actually have four cemeteries in town, really, that are all owned by the town. Two of them are completely full. One of them is Ye Olde Cemetery, which has people from when they first settled in. Same thing with Robin Cemetery. Monroe Cemetery has a lot of the heavy names and there's still minimal burials at Monroe. But we have like, there's a lot of bluestone, like, headstones and such. I mean, trust me, you look at the dates and it's, you know, we're celebrating the 250th anniversary for the Battle of Lexington in April. April 19th.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

And there's like, there's cemeteries there to prove it. Right. And then we have a newer cemetery, which is the Westview Cemetery, which is. There's no headstones. They're all flush with the grass. And then those are, you know, there's. We got concrete vaults. And so we get a. You know, they get a hog out the plot, install the concrete vault and then support the burials. But now we also have a green burial option which is non embalming. You get buried in a pine box.

[A]

Interesting. I didn't even know you could do that. Yeah, I thought everything had to be embalmed.

[B]

It's very trendy. It's been happening a lot up in our neck of the woods.

[A]

So the grass can really use you.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Just. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And there's a lot of. There's people that get buried under trees.

[A]

Sure, I've seen that.

[B]

Or turned into trees, whatever it is.

[A]

So this team has to probably mow.

[B]

Keep like they maintain the property. And it's. I mean, it's all irrigated and everything. It's gorgeous. Yeah, it's just plush green trees and.

[A]

No. Cemeteries would be beautiful parks if they weren't cemeteries. Every time I see a cemetery, I'm like, that'd be a really nice place to hang out. But obviously not.

[B]

And believe it or not, now this is so like, I deal with a lot of special projects too. So now we're building. We're in the design phases of building a columbarium. So columbarium is a. That's the structure where you would pro. Where you would. Somebody who was cremated. So it's like they have little boxes where you can just put the urn in there. But my boss and I were talking about it and we were like, well, what are we going to do here? And he's like, well, we have an area that's kind of like. It's just blah. But it's got Differential elevations. So I'm working with this landscape architect and we're actually going to build into the slope.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

And make it like a retaining wall with like an upper and lower section and there's going to be a seating area. But you know, the like. Take for example, I'm dealing with a company out of Wisconsin because that's. They do a lot of these custom columbariums.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's a niche business, but go figure. Like there's a little bit of site work there. There's some concrete construction and some of it might be precast, some of it may be cast in place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you got like ornamental stones that are going to be installed. I mean it's a, it's a little bit of everything, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's a, it's a bit, it's a bit morbid. But my, my, my last, my final grandparent died when I was like five or six. So I haven't had grandparents really, really early on and. But I don't remember the previous three really. But because I was six, I kind of remember it and I kind of remember going to his funeral and it was at the cemetery in Scottsdale, Arizona. I was most excited about the backhoe that they had digging the holes. I thought it was fascinating. Perfect rectangles with a backhoe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you do that? I still don't know. But that was what, like that's still in my head from my six year old brain. I remember it was a stupid case backhoe.

[B]

It's doable.

[A]

Yeah. Because they were doing it. And so that's what I was most excited about was the backhoe digging the holes.

[B]

So we do have a custom, we do have a custom bucket.

[A]

Yeah. So do they use the custom bucket?

[B]

Well, actually we got two.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I took it one step further. So there is a custom bucket where it's a specific width. So you just basically.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

It's a specific width and it's kind of, it's a shallow, it's like a grading bucket with teeth.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they were buying these extra long shovels to grade the bottom and I was like, okay, well why don't we just buy you guys a straight edge bucket too? And you can just make bottom with the straight edge.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Oh, I like that idea. I said, and then you can also, if you need to square up and peel the far edge of the excavation too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because they just. But that's like those little things. Well, it's just, it's a, you Know, it's a simple Wainroy connection with the single pin. You just, boom, take it out, put the other bucket back in, and off you go.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But a lot of cemeteries are actually converting to minis.

[A]

Mini excavators.

[B]

Yeah. So like, you know, like a 10 or like a 10 to 12,000 pound mini.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So there a lot of them are doing that because it's better if the ground's a little soft versus a backhoe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I mean, we just, we load them in a five, we load the excavation into a 550 and off you go. But I like the idea of having like a smaller. Almost like the buggies that they have for doing like turf work with the big floats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, there's a couple, you know, whether it's, you know, Mecalec has one or JCB has those, you know, and you can, you can angle the bucket 90 degrees and you can dump it.

[A]

In and like a giant wheelbarrow. And I'm like, that you drive kind of thing.

[B]

I talked to them about it and they were like, that's rather interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Because yeah, you can spin.

[B]

You can spin all the way around. And I'm like, I'm like, wouldn't you guys like one of those? And they're like, well, does it have a cab? Is it air conditioned and heated?

[A]

I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can.

[B]

I'm like, I can't imagine why we can't get one of those. But it's like those kinds of things. But you and I were talking about how, like, we definitely go outside the box, at least in our organization. Right?

[A]

Yeah. So with equipment, you have a budget every year. And I'm sure there's a way to rank things based on priority.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But you have the discretion to spend that budget on equipment.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Or whatever you need in your area.

[B]

Correct. But so keep in mind, we have a five year look ahead. So we have a capital expenditures committee who reviews the budget and we need to. We do have like, we actually have an emergency purchase in for coming in July because we actually have a. There's a truck that has an engine and the OEM is no longer supporting the engine.

[A]

Very cool.

[B]

What kind of sucks is like, it's like a 2014 and they're not supporting the engine anymore. So we're kind of frustrated with that.

[A]

Yeah, super helpful.

[B]

Well, I mean, we have another OEM that we use now. We don't use them anymore. And. And I guess this just emphasizes why we stopped using them. But we have that five year look ahead. So we're also an accredited agency through American Public Works Association. Part of that accreditation process is there's certain things that you just need to do. And analysis of the equipment is one of them. Where we do an annual analysis to see where everything is based on usage, repairs, downtime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we put together a list and I, you know, I told you last night, you know, like when I started in 2010, we were somewhere between 3 and 400,000 that we were where we were replacing equipment. Now where. And I mean, since COVID the costs have gone through the roof. You know, when I can get. There's times where I get like a 25 or 30% uptick just because. So we're like 2 million now.

[A]

It's all inflation. But profitability is also through the roof.

[B]

Yeah, well, I won't name the manufacturer, but I actually got to one of the corporate offices and I asked them, you're charging me another 25%? And what, why? I mean, I have a purchase order and I've committed to purchasing this. And they said, well, it's been a tough year. And so my rebuttal to that was, you know, you're a publicly traded company and your financials are available for anybody and everybody to read. So can you.

[A]

That's the craziest thing about it.

[B]

So can you tell me that you actually pulled in 500 million two years ago and you pulled in over a billion this year and you're telling me that that's a bad year? I said, two years ago, I can understand. I said, considering what you do in volume. I said, but you guys doubled your net profit. I said, I understand that you have to answer to the shareholders, but don't blow smoke.

[A]

It's so backwards.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Well, it's the same thing with the materials companies. It's just like I've heard of. And it's really frustrating because that's been a big thing that's driven up costs across the board. I've talked with so many big infrastructure CEOs and I've asked them, hey, has this infrastructure bill really done anything? Because it's the most historic infrastructure bill in American history. Twice inflation adjusted what the U.S. interstate system was. This is gonna change everything. And they've said, well, it's just about covered the cost of inflation on projects. It's rampant, out of control, and the horse is out of the barn. It's not like prices are coming back down. Like, oh, well, we did was tough few years, we got through it. It hasn't been like that at all. And I see these materials coming, companies, all different kinds of materials, not just the ones that sell rocks, sell everything, reporting their earnings. They're public companies. So on one side, I hear how badly they're screwing people, just absolutely screwing contractors, which is then ultimately screwing the taxpayer, me, whoever, ultimately. Or at least that's what I like to think. I don't. I know it really doesn't work that way. I know my tax dollars don't actually make my community better. Go figure. But they. Here in Tennessee, they don't pave my roads, but they do get me a stadium. I don't want really excited about that. But they're basically just like, here's your price increase. Take it or kick rocks. You know, just, what are you going to do about it? And then they have the audacity to go on LinkedIn and report how good their last quarter was and how groundbreaking blockbuster year. We're making so much money for our shareholders, it's not even funny. It's like, wait a minute. Do you guys not see? That's the funniest. They're public companies. I can look up how much money you make.

[B]

Right, Right. And what's even crazier is before I called corporate, the reason why I called corporate is because the dealership that represented them or represents them said, they're telling me that if you're not accepting, then we need to eat that.

[A]

Yeah, well. And the dealership's like, well, hey, it's not our fault. It's corporate.

[B]

It's corporate. And they said, it's out of our hands. And I said, okay. I said, so? They said, but you can see the way that it's structured. They could only put in X because it's a large consortium contract. Like, they can only take X amount of money off of the sale because it is through the oem. So they were like, listen, we can't absorb that because we can only take 3 1/2% for your sale anyways. Everything is from them. Everything's on them. And that's when I said, give me the phone number, I'll call him. Yeah, but what the response. What do you think the response was from that guy when I said, what do you have to say? That you guys doubled your profit? He was like. I said, you don't have anything to say about that, do you? He's like, yeah, I don't have anything to say. I said, why don't you take that back to your vice president and tell him, yeah, but it Won't. Seriously, they don't care and they don't. And what's kind of sad is that there's other OEMs that honored the pricing.

[A]

Yeah. There are all these big companies. Like, you go to the Fortune 500, you go to the list, everybody's guilty of it. And I know they're not saying it. And I'm not here to also demonize business. I get it. I'm in business. I'm all for making money. I'm all for making money. Um, it's just, yeah, it's, it's, it's just odd to see from, from the grandstands. But you, you have that, that five year, that five year look ahead. And so you're in a unique position. Because if I'm a civil contractor, I'm trying my best to project what the next few years look like, but I have like 18 months of backlog, maybe 24 months of backlog.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So I know what work's gonna look like and I can kind of project my equipment needs and my capital expenditures and so on and so forth. But with you guys, it's a lot more even. So it's like, here's what you're probably gonna get over the next five years. And you know the requirements of like, what kind of work you're gonna have over the next five years. Cause it's pretty similar every year. And so your equipment program, like you have some luxuries that I guess a civil contractor doesn't like. You're probably a little bit more constrained in some capacities, but you can also even things out, I think, a little bit better.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we can. I mean, we buy what we need. We do. And we go through great lengths to make sure that we get what we need. And whether it's a public bid or it's a consortium bid. And I think you understand this, it's no different than the private sector. There's groups where you can, like, you can put certain companies into a category and it's good, sound, healthy competition. They all basically do the same thing. And those are the communities that we usually gravitate with on a consortium, because we all share the same values in the same levels of service. There are certain communities that just operate at a completely different wavelength as others. And it's just the way it is. It has to do with your proximity to a metropolis. It has to do with how affluent the people are that live in the community. It's all relative. Right. But that five year capital is, that's for everything. That's for our sewer work, that's for our water work. We're in the process of looking at rebuilding the water towers that have been there since the early 1900s. We're looking at some other major roadway realignment projects that we just spent a considerable amount of money and just did a streetscape in the downtown area. And I think that was right around the $10 million mark, plus or minus. Right. But that's a good chunk of work now. That includes engineering services and such as well. But when you start thinking about some of these communities and that's all out there, it's all public information. I mean, there's a lot happening in the North. Like, you know, there's a lot happening in the Northeast. I mean, I think the most major project that we are having right now that is going to top anything that we've had ever is they're looking to rebuild the high school, and they're talking about 600 plus million dollars for the high school.

[A]

There's a. We went to one high school project up there. I don't know which.

[B]

Oh, I know which one you went to. You went to the Waltham one. That was where Vinagro was working.

[A]

That was the one.

[B]

Yes, that's next door.

[A]

That was.

[B]

You should have come over to visit. It's down the street from me.

[A]

That was one of the largest export jobs I've seen in that environment. And it was for a high school. They had like 150 trucks running nonstop. They had permanent scales set up on the job like it was a quarry.

[B]

Did he have the 6015 there?

[A]

60, 15 out there. And a 12. 1100. 1200. 1250. Something that size and a 988. And it was just silly. It was like, what is this for a data center? This must be for Google or Facebook or the US Military. No, it's for the high school.

[B]

It's for the high school.

[A]

Like, what? What? Huh. I had no idea how, like the scale and scope. How many kids are at that high school? Like $600 million. High school?

[B]

I don't know. Oh, at hours?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good question. I'm not. I don't know. The school operates on their own, so they're technically. Like, there's the municipal budget and there's a school budget. School budget is all on their own.

[A]

So they're. That's just school committee alongside.

[B]

What's alongside?

[A]

Yeah, you'll coordinate with them, but that's their deal.

[B]

Yeah, like, we own snow removal in all the parking lots, in the treatment. But as far as everything else, like and we also own all the BMPs for the, for the. So I just can't wait to see what's going to happen with the drainage upgrades that are required at this new school. Because we own all the drainage in town. So all the BMPs, all the best management practices to stay in alignment with the MS.4 per matting. I can only imagine what we're going to have there with such a huge project like that. And the town's really, the town's really popular into, you know, they want to be net zero sustainable. LEED silver is the standard for any municipal building that is built. So there's a lot of technology that goes into everything.

[A]

I'm glad we've been talking and we've had this conversation because like I said, it's. And I didn't totally quite understand it until this conversation, but it really is. This municipality thing is a really, really big deal in the United States. A really big deal. And like heavy civil construction, this and that. They say they don't get any credit. They don't. But it's like municipality municipalities don't get a single lick of credit anywhere.

[B]

We just, we're, we're just, we just do it. Yeah, just do it.

[A]

Yeah. It is such a thankless role, but so essential. Then it's like if you were looking for, if you were somebody that was looking for job stability, consistency in location, reasonable consistency in work hours, work life balance, stable retirement scenario and a desire to still continue serving the community. It's like there's not that many better roles than a municipality, a government type role in your, in your local area.

[B]

I'd say I have five weeks of vacation.

[A]

Really. Five weeks?

[B]

Five weeks.

[A]

Holy smokes. I don't even have five.

[B]

You have as many days as you want.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we, yeah, we have like. Yeah, but we just, we take, we take two weeks off in the holidays.

[B]

Which is great, but which I, I have to say that's kind of old school and I don't think enough companies do what you do.

[A]

It's common sense. I don't know why. I think it's just good business.

[B]

I think it's a no brainer, but it's very old school and I think it's great that you do that.

[A]

Oh, it's, I don't even want to make it out to seem like I'm a good person. I'm the best boss ever. We give people two weeks off. It's just like nothing.

[B]

Give everybody a break.

[A]

Nothing happens in those two weeks. One so you can be the hardest working person ever. Everybody's pushing you off to the New year. Everybody's. Everybody's checked out. So nothing gets done. Nothing gets done between Christmas and New Year's anyway. Like you think your mind is going to be like. Everybody's mind's like yeah.

[B]

Water breaks, sewer breaks, work really hard.

[A]

But that stuff doesn't stop.

[B]

Wind storms, downed trees.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that's. It's so, you know, we are 25. We're 24, 7, 365. Right. And there's. We manage, you know, we definitely manage the vacations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you, when you have a staff and you have a lot of people who are say 20 plus years, you're in. They're in that four to five week range.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is a full time job in itself. Managing the time off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

For the people.

[A]

Yeah. Just. Yeah. Just the coordination.

[B]

Just the coordination. Because you know, are you gonna restrict them as to when they take the time off?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the longest time it was always a restriction in the winter months because we gotta plow snow. Can't do that anymore. I mean it's just we balance it out, we figure it out. And what we've been able to do is we've been able to shift and pivot based on who we have available. We've been working with some vacancies for such a period of time. We can, we're just, we're dealing with it, you know. I mean all of our new operators, they come in with a. So we have a hoisting equipment license requirement in the state of Massachusetts. You know, you need to take a test to operate a backhoe, excavator, front end loader, what have you. Right?

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Yeah. So Rhode island has it, Massachusetts has it. I don't know if Connecticut does.

[A]

Is it because an excavator can lift stuff, can be used as a crane? Technically, yeah.

[B]

It's lifting X amount of pounds over so many feet. And then of course there's a lot of questions about proximity of wires. And then we have the dig safe, which. Which you don't want to dig until you've balled in the dig safe to make sure that all the utilities are marked out. We just had an incident the other day when somebody didn't call it in and they hit the water line.

[A]

Yeah. Go figure.

[B]

That was like. Right? That was the day I was leaving.

[A]

Was that you guys or somebody?

[B]

It was a contractor.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they were like, oh well, you know, we're going to. What are we going to do? I said, well, they're going to like, they need to repair it and it's on them.

[A]

Yeah. What do you think?

[B]

And I said, well, we have a emergency services contract. I said, no problem. Call them up. And they're paying the bill because they did it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's just, it's craziness. But the. Like I said, it's a really, really unique environment. It really is. And we're completely different than the Midwest and completely different than the.

[A]

Than the south and Southwest. And California is its own animal.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's some really, really interesting organizations down in Florida. So I was talking about the guy in Gainesville yesterday. Right. The training program that they have. And then what they used to have. I mean, it was weeks of training. I mean, there's some really, really, really sharp organizations out there.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what I'm starting to realize. It's like again, I'm squaring this category of the government just sucks. And it's like, wait, wait, wait. I couldn't do a single thing without the government. And there's a lot of parts to this.

[B]

Picking up trash.

[A]

Yes, yes, it's trash. I got. I live. I live above somebody's garage in their backyard. Cause I'm never home. And I'm still just as much money I can put in the company as I can. I'm still young. I can. So I have to go down the alley to get to where I live. And the alley was just horrible. Just gigantic potholes. And it would just beat the hell out of my truck every time I drive through it. And they just repaved it last month. It is so nice. So nice. And it just brings me so much joy. Like 300 yards of perfect pavement where it was anything but. But it's something that simple like that that doesn't just happen. Somebody had to go out and they're working on the schedule based on when they last repaved to the alleys in this area. And then they go out and probably evaluate it.

[B]

You are correct.

[A]

Wow. This one really needs to be replaced. And then it's put into the budget. Then you have to figure out what contractor's doing it or are they doing it. I don't even know who did it.

[B]

So we have what you call as a pci, a Pavement Condition index.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And every road gets like a rating every three years. Every road is looked at 100% and it gets a rating. And you shoot for a PCI of 75 or 80 or 85. 85 is unheard of. Anything over 85, you are really, really on top of it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I think we're pretty close to that right now. But we spend extra money every year in order to achieve that. Right. We don't do the bare minimum. We invested a lot of money on in pavement maintenance with all kinds of other new technology, whether it's, you know, there's a lot of treatments you can do to the pavement. So all the years of them using wrap recycled asphalt into the pavement has actually made the pavement more brittle.

[A]

Yeah, go figure.

[B]

So we are actually now spraying products on the pavement to make it more flexible and pliable and acting like a flexible. Like. So the bituminous concrete pavement is acting like a flexible pavement, like the way it was designed. So we're using that. And then there's micro surfaces and all kinds of other treatments that we're doing, and we're heavily invested in that, which has significantly increased our pci. And then we have an sci, which is a sidewalk condition index, too, because we spend in 900,000 bucks a year just in sidewalk maintenance. Because it's a big community for sidewalks. They want their sidewalks in good shape. It's all relative. Again. The one thing that you need to take away, though, is this is what the public officials and the people who elect the public officials. And then there's the town meeting that votes for all of these principles or initiatives. Right. We have to do, like, we're on the hook to do what they want. Not everybody shares the same principles or the same opinions on these. It's all relative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, it's easier. Once everything's in better shape. It's much easier to maintain.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. And people aren't as angry.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's. No, it's awesome. It's really cool. I'm excited to get more involved with you guys at the association there, which is super exciting to me. And I'm really happy you were able to come down and talk because, like I said, it's so simple. It happens every day around everybody. And yet if it didn't, all of society would just descend into chaos right away, which is. Yeah, it's terrifying, but makes me feel very appreciative at the same time that you have the people doing what you're doing. And there's people in here in Nashville. I give Nashville shit because their road index must be like three or something like that. I don't think they even look at it. And then their sidewalk index doesn't exist. Or budget because they don't even have sidewalks. But other than that, my toilet's flush, water gets to my house. I have a new pavement in my alley. I am a happy camper. So I'm very appreciative.

[B]

Well, I'm glad that you see the similarities and you see that we're just not that far off and not much different than all the people that you visit now.

[A]

No, I think. I think the government's a great opportunity for people as well. I think there are so many people that burn out of construction because of the lifestyle. And I understand the need to get projects done and schedules and weather. I understand all that. I think some of it does need to change because I think we're turning over an absurd amount of people every year. The industry is as a whole. But I don't think people have to work those hours to still be in this world serving people from a critical infrastructure standpoint. There's this whole other world that is the municipal world, the government. That could be a remarkable opportunity for a lot of people that are leaving construction, private sector and going to other industries. That's not. Or even starting their career or it's not always private to public. You can start your career at public. You can just work public your whole life. There's a bunch of different ways to do it, but I think it's a huge opportunity.

[B]

Right. And then we talked about last night too, and there's depending on where you are in the country. You know, when we talk about, say it's the city of Fort Collins or the city of Denver, where they have multiple paving and milling crews on staff doing all of their own, like they have their own asphalt plants. And you're saying to yourself, that's non existent where we are in the Northeast, but in other parts, everybody does it differently. And that's where the APWA steps in, because that's where we all kind of come together in this common threads and that's where we kind of share a lot of information. And I've been fortunate where my directors have allowed me to bring a lot of new technology in. It's not new technology in general, it's just new technology to Massachusetts because it's already been being done in other parts of the country. And that's where again, it just goes back to thinking outside the box and being comfortable with going outside of your comfort zone to try something new. It's like you don't have anything to lose by trying the public sector. If you've been very successful in the private sector, you can definitely give it a shot because worst case scenario, you could always go back.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing. Private sector is not hurting for people. Public sector is not hurting for people. So there is that luxury of. Yeah, especially younger. Especially, you could argue the public sector is a bigger opportunity for younger people because with the leadership aging out, that creates. I mean, you can move a lot faster within these organizations.

[B]

You can.

[A]

Way faster than you could probably 20 years ago, which is, I think, a huge advantage as well for people that want to go that route, get into leadership. So I'm glad we were able to finally make this work. I know we had this scheduled last year and weather got the best of us, but here we are and came down. Good week. Everybody's in the office. So glad we're working with one another and hopefully there's a lot more of it in the future.

[B]

Super excited for what the future is going to bring, and I'm really appreciative of you having me on. I've listened to you enough and I've seen everything that you've been doing, and I think it's. I said it last night. You're moving at a hell of a clip sometimes. It's. I give you a lot of credit.

[A]

I appreciate it. No, there's. There's a lot of urgency here, so we've got to get on with things. But no, it's people like you that actually make it happen. I just take pictures of it. So. Yeah, well, talk to people about it.

[B]

Yeah. No, hey, listen, there's a lot of opportunities there for us to collaborate.

[A]

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming in and we'll talk to you soon.

[B]

Thank you, sir.