The Future of Fleet Management w/ Austin Conti of Tenna – DT 294

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dirt Talk by BuildWitt
Episode: The Future of Fleet Management w/ Austin Conti of Tenna – DT 294
Release Date: December 8, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron engages in an in-depth conversation with Austin Conti, the co-founder of Tenna, a leading fleet management software company. The discussion delves into the evolving landscape of fleet management, the integration of artificial intelligence (AI), the challenges of implementing technology in the construction industry, and the importance of data-driven decision-making. Both Aaron and Austin share their insights on software development, customer engagement, and the future prospects of fleet management in construction.

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AI and Automation in Fleet Management

The conversation kicks off with Aaron questioning why some companies choose not to automate repetitive tasks, to which Austin responds by highlighting Tenna's focus on automating the "odds and ends" rather than the highly repetitive tasks commonly targeted by other automation solutions.

• Aaron [01:08]: "I asked them because they're automating equipment... why aren't you guys [targeting repetitive tasks]?"
• Austin [01:21]: "The other stuff's just too easy."

Austin elaborates on how Tenna leverages AI and machine learning to enhance safety through dual-facing cameras that monitor driver behavior, such as seatbelt usage, drowsiness, rolling stops, and lane changes. He emphasizes that while the technology isn't exceedingly complex, its continuous learning capabilities make it impactful.

• Austin [02:22]: "It's the driver facing cameras... AI, it's machine learning on it, but it's impactful."

Implementing AI for Safety

Austin discusses the strategic implementation of camera systems in fleet vehicles, emphasizing the necessity of clear communication with drivers to ensure acceptance and proper usage. He notes that proactive leadership in rolling out these systems leads to better outcomes and increased momentum over time, especially when evidence from incidents reinforces the cameras' protective role.

• Austin [03:02]: "This is why we're doing it. This is why it's good. This is why it's important."

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Challenges of Technology Adoption in Fleet Management

Aaron voices concerns about drivers feeling uncomfortable with constant surveillance, comparing it to having cameras in an office. Austin counters by framing the cameras as safety tools rather than monitoring devices, aiming to protect drivers during incidents rather than scrutinize their daily activities.

• Aaron [04:06]: "And if you were driving... it would make me pretty uncomfortable."
• Austin [05:51]: "It's not a security tool. It's a safety protection tool."

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Marketing and Customer Engagement

Austin outlines Tenna's multifaceted marketing strategy, which includes partnerships with industry associations like the Associated General Contractors (AGC), leveraging Google Ads, and utilizing a dedicated team of Sales Development Representatives (SDRs) to generate leads. He emphasizes the importance of genuine engagement by researching potential clients and understanding their specific needs before initiating contact.

• Austin [24:37]: "We like to research the company... be curious about their business and see if we're a fit."

Aaron echoes the sentiment, noting the frustration with generic sales pitches and highlighting the effectiveness of personalized outreach.

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Data-Driven Operations and Software Development

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the value of data in fleet management. Austin explains that Tenna's primary focus is to provide actionable data that helps customers run their operations more efficiently. Unlike traditional reporting tools, Tenna integrates operational data with workflow tools, enabling comprehensive maintenance, utilization, safety, compliance, and dispatching management within a single platform.

• Austin [30:08]: "We help you build better data because we've built the OPS tools to gather that and actually be actionable on that."

Aaron adds that the iterative nature of software development allows companies like Tenna to continuously improve their products based on real-world data and customer feedback.

• Aaron [10:19]: "You can change and you can mold it and you can iterate."

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Events and Community Building

Both hosts discuss the importance of industry events in fostering community and gathering feedback. Austin shares his experiences with road trips during the COVID-19 pandemic, demonstrating Tenna's commitment to maintaining business continuity and customer relationships. They also talk about upcoming events like Con Expo and World of Asphalt, highlighting the role these gatherings play in networking and product demonstration.

• Austin [42:12]: "We started in Jersey... demoing people in their yards."
• Aaron [39:20]: "We're going to have the summit next year... unique locations, focused on two specific topics."

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Focus and Discipline in Business

Aaron and Austin emphasize the critical role of focus and discipline in building successful businesses, particularly in niche markets like construction fleet management. Austin recounts Tenna's journey from tracking small tools with QR codes to developing comprehensive telematics solutions, underscoring the importance of specializing to meet specific customer needs.

• Austin [74:41]: "Focus and discipline matter a ton for success."

Aaron relates this to his own experience with developing training products that complement existing union programs, striving to enhance rather than replace current systems.

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Future Outlook and Industry Trends

Looking ahead, Austin envisions continued growth for Tenna, targeting not only operations and equipment managers but also expanding into finance teams to integrate fleet management with financial data. He predicts that the adoption of AI and data-driven tools will accelerate, driven by both market demand and the intrinsic benefits these technologies offer.

• Austin [48:40]: "Keep listening to our customers, keep iterating on the product."

Aaron expresses optimism about the industry's direction, particularly with the emergence of data centers driving construction growth. They discuss the balance between traditional methods and innovative solutions, acknowledging the complexities of infrastructure projects and the necessity of adapting to technological advancements.

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Notable Quotes

• Austin [03:20]: "Great. You know."
• Aaron [10:44]: "I've got to get the real data iterating and building a better product over time."
• Austin [32:46]: "You can have like a fleet management or a training program, but what are those small impacts that the software is making that drives adoption."
• Aaron [12:41]: "Workers can't afford to not embrace technology if they want to remain competitive."
• Austin [55:03]: "Everybody should gather good equipment data now."
• Aaron [55:17]: "If you continue to do that, then you have the right business model."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Aaron and Austin reflecting on the mutual benefits of their discussion, recognizing the synergy between Tenna's fleet management solutions and BuildWitt's focus on construction technology. They reiterate the importance of collaborative efforts in driving industry advancement and express excitement for future innovations and events.

• Austin [111:10]: "I think that's a testament to you guys that a great job with that."
• Aaron [111:18]: "Very exciting for what you're doing. It's sorely needed in the world and it's cool to be a part."

Overall, this episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the future of fleet management in the construction industry, highlighting the transformative potential of AI, the necessity of specialized software solutions, and the enduring value of data-driven operations.

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Key Takeaways

1. AI and Machine Learning are pivotal in enhancing fleet safety and operational efficiency through continuous learning and driver behavior monitoring.
2. Customer-Centric Approach: Personalized outreach and genuine engagement are essential for effective marketing and customer acquisition in fleet management.
3. Data Integration: Combining operational data with workflow tools offers actionable insights that drive better business decisions.
4. Focus and Discipline: Specializing in niche markets enables companies to deliver tailored solutions that meet specific industry needs.
5. Community and Feedback: Participating in industry events fosters community building and provides valuable customer feedback for product improvement.
6. Future Growth: Expanding beyond operations to include financial data integration will further enhance fleet management solutions and drive Tenna's growth.

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Learn More

For more information about Tenna and their fleet management solutions, visit Tenna.com.

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Note: All timestamps are in the format [MM:SS] and attributed to the respective speakers based on the transcript provided.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor. And at this point, we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter, and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest work wear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, Ariat.com dirt talk. That is Ariat.com dirt talk. I don't know if any. I don't know if any of that is confidential, but. But I'll make it. Yeah, thank you. I'll make it more vague. I was talking to a guy and.

[B]

I asked around us.

[A]

Yeah, I asked them because they're automating equipment. And I asked like, why aren't you guys. Because I've seen other. Like the latest in automation is focused on very repetitive tasks.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Very repetitive. And which is, which makes perfect sense. Like, yes, of course you would automate what is repetitive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. But they weren't going after the repetitive stuff. They were going after, like, the odds and ends. And I asked him why and he was just like, well, the other stuff's just too easy. And I'm like, okay.

[B]

Hot dog.

[A]

Not.

[B]

Hot dog is not.

[A]

I just.

[B]

This is.

[A]

People like that are just like, yes, this guy's way smarter than I am. I'll just, I'll leave him to it and I'll go play in my sandbox. Yeah.

[B]

The AI stuff's, I mean, it's. We use it on safety. Right? Yeah. Seat belts, drowsy, you know, anything for driving behavior. It's a big part of our business now with the cameras. Yep.

[A]

So it's the, it's the driver facing cameras.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. Dual facing. So even also, like rolling stops, lane changes, that's all part of, you know, you can call that AI. It's machine learning on it, but it's impactful. It's not super, super complicated, but it continues to learn and, you know, matters.

[A]

Is it for, I think AI too. People in a lot of ways misunderstand. Like, it's been happening for a very long time. Yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been Credit card industry.

[B]

Right. It's been using credit card.

[A]

Like even YouTube. Like YouTube has been artificial intelligence for a very long time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I. Those cameras, are they for primarily on road, like fleet vehicles?

[B]

Yeah, fleet vehicles. I Think there's a big opportunity on the iron as well. But the market's much more established for the. For the fleet vehicles.

[A]

Do you help them when you're implementing something like that with the messaging to their people?

[B]

Yeah, it's a really important part.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you can. You know, we've had experiences where cameras have been installed and nobody was told about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That doesn't go well. But we've had other customers who took a proactive leadership approach. They got everybody together. This is why we're doing it. This is why it's good. This is why it's important. And then the rollout happens. Great. You know.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like that's something you can do right or really wrong.

[B]

Yeah. And over time there's momentum with it because if there's an accident which unfortunately happens a lot and the driver is exonerated, then there's a proof point and insurance claim and it continues to move in the right direction.

[A]

That would be okay. I was trying to figure out how I would really understand it as a driver. But that makes perfect sense. This is really to protect you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone cuts in front of you, slams on their brakes in a very short period of time.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It looks like. Yeah, I see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right. That makes sense. Yeah. The. Does it. If you look. If you look somewhere else. Does it. Does it say hey yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it has, you know, voice. You know, it basically warns you as you're doing these things. I wish we had better voices. I wish it was like Al Pacino yelling at you to slow down versus but it's powerful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it continues to get better. So.

[A]

So that. That's becoming pretty common.

[B]

Yeah. I would say camera adoption over the last three years. It's almost in majority of our quotes now.

[A]

I feel like last time we talked about.

[B]

And then heavy equipment. We have customers using it on their iron.

[A]

I've mining that's actually quite common now like in. Out in Australia. A lot of the big trucks have. Sure have those cameras because I mean.

[B]

Mining is all robotic in a lot of ways now.

[A]

Yeah. But there'll always be manned fleets and a lot of it happens at night. Night shift you get a little sleepy. You're driving a 400 ton truck. Things can quickly. Um. But those cameras have actually been super, super successful with that. Um. I just don't. Yeah. I. You would just have to really message it. Right. Because I try to put myself in the position of that truck driver and seen a camera on the dash now looking at me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The whole Time I'm doing my job. It would make me pretty uncomfortable.

[B]

Sure. I mean, if you had a camera in your office always looking at you. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's your place of work and there's a lot of pride in your truck and you keep it clean and. But is it protecting you in the situation? And if you're doing the right things, then it's a tool on your side.

[A]

Yeah, well, and it's not.

[B]

And that happens more. That's more of the case than the inverse.

[A]

Like, the people in the office aren't watching the feed. Like, it's not really to sit there and watch people.

[B]

It's not a security tool. It's a safety protection tool.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They just hear a camera, though. And like, even when we go, the.

[B]

Company'S like, hey, I just want to just watch all my drivers drive all day. Like, I think they got better things to do as far as building work, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I. But I feel like when we talked last, that wasn't. I feel like we didn't even talk about that part.

[B]

No, it wasn't even our product portfolio.

[A]

Really?

[B]

So how'd you get that idea? Combination of market demand and us seeing it coming and. Yeah, even. I'm sorry, we had an earlier version, the AI dual facing one we didn't have at that time.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I've even thought about it with me driving around because I have a company truck and the amount of, I don't know, just the fraud and the crazy stuff that happens out driving around with company vehicles especially, it's pretty wild. Like you can be targeted because you have a company vehicle because someone needs some money or something like that and they'll. I mean, yes, you have all the stupid stuff going on with people driving in general, but I've had a lot of friends where this has happened, where someone sees company vehicle and they try to get in an accident with the company vehicle because they know it's a company vehicle. They've got deep pockets, they've got a big insurance policy. I'll be able to get paid out. And then they go talk to some lawyer that chases this kind of stuff that are just like the absolute scum of the earth and they make a bunch of money because you can't prove it.

[B]

Yep, that's why. That's why a lot of people are buying cameras, I guess. A lot of lawyers out there.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. This is everything I've thought about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. The. How is it? Is it split with what you guys have between heavy equipment and on the road vehicles. Is there a lot more? Because didn't you get started with machines?

[B]

Yeah, we actually got started with small tools. Oh just putting QR codes on different buckets, attachments and things like that. And then we said, okay, if we want to actually do this right, we, we got to cover all the asset classes, no matter the size and value. And that's how we started building telematics devices and matching them to the pieces of equipment. So it's pretty mixed, but it's just mixed as we serve contractors. So contractors, some electrical contractors may have more F150s in their fleet.

[A]

I see.

[B]

If you're doing earthwork, you may have more dozers and excavators, more foreman trucks. So as long as you're doing self perform work and you have assets and it's, you know, a key part of your business, we, we can get the data from those assets and all the workflow tools from maintenance, utilization, safety, compliance, dispatching, all of that's all within tena.

[A]

Okay. Okay. All right. So you basically. And a company, when they sign up with you guys, they, they basically want to cover all of their assets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like is it because.

[B]

Or they, or they have one pain point they might start with, hey, we want to look at utilization on our iron. We want fault codes from our iron, our maintenance system. But then we want to scale into fleet or they're like, we're just going to bite this whole thing in one chomp and let's do everything.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I feel like contractors in general, at least my experience has been they just want to get it done with. Like they don't want to mess with it over multiple phases a lot of times. And bigger companies are different, but a lot of times they just want to get it done with. So hey, here's our list of assets. Sometimes though, like, there's probably cases that you guys have run into where all the assets, like they're not even sure how many assets they have.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of an oxymoron. We were like, we need to know what you have to quote it. And they're like, but we don't know what everything we have. So we start somewhere. Right. So you probably get 80%. Right. And that's okay. Yeah. I mean a lot of asset lists are on Excel spreadsheets and in somebody's head. And again, it's not because they're not organized. Just got so much going on and that's why we built this tool.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'M gonna turn the air conditioning down real quick.

[B]

Yeah, sure. It's fucking hot. Yeah, it is hot.

[A]

That's what the editing's for.

[B]

I love the studio, though. It's cool.

[A]

It's good. Yeah. It leaves some things to be desired. But this was, you know, the, What I love about software is that. And it's for you being in hardware and software, you probably see this very, very well software. You can change and you can mold it and you can iterate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's not, there's not that much stress in getting it right, quote unquote. And there's almost like a disadvantage to trying to get it perfectly right before it's in motion. Because you're just better off just getting the real data iterating and building a better product over time. Whereas a physical space, you've got to get it right.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Or hardware.

[A]

Or hardware. Yeah, or hardware.

[B]

Big spin of the war. That's six months.

[A]

Because you can't just, oh, we didn't get this one piece right. Let's just go redesign it. It's not that sure. We built the studio. I started working on this in 2020 and I, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what our business was going to look like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We weren't in software at that point. There was a lot of stuff that was very different and I wouldn't, I wouldn't have even leased a space like this had I known that said. Yeah, you just, you have to work with it now because we don't. Because, you know, also spending the money to like remodel our office right now, it's really stupid. I'm buying my money.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Not that we have just money to spend, but if we have money to spend, it's going to go into product or something more backstruct.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No new desks, right?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[B]

But that's an interesting debate on like software iteration. Because I feel like there's some industries where, yeah. You want to move fast and break it. Right. You hear that in Silicon Valley. And I think it. And there's like, oh, we're an agile shop or we're a waterfall shop. And I think for construction, like spending the extra time with your customers. Right. This is our spec. Like, what do you think of this spec? Let's battle test those wireframes. Let's do as much like actual design work upfront when it's low cost with partners, then when you go to do the coding. Right. You get it Closer. You're not going to get it 100% on your first launch. But I don't think 50% is efficient. I think you want to be around 80 and then continue to iterate and get it right.

[A]

I agree. Yeah.

[B]

It's just, it's interesting because some industries like you can just like throw the app out there for us. Like if you're managing your fleet, like it's gotta be right.

[A]

And you don't. Yeah. You don't want to.

[B]

That's our job.

[A]

There's. And I think that's part of the reason why this industry is not further along in the technology world is because they just like the way they do things and they don't want it to change all that much.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm sure. Have you, have you guys seen this? Whereas you're releasing a better version of the software. But is there pushback? Because they like just the previous version. They don't want it to change sometimes.

[B]

I mean, we've been releasing so much effectively. Yeah. We've been building so much new product over the last three years. Like now we're taking it and we're just sandpapering. Okay. Now you want this button over here or this is an easier user experience to get the information.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But a lot of the times it's like, how do you build the product so it is configurable? So if you have like a inspection app, for example, you can say, I want a heavy inspection app, I want a DVIR for a truck. Or do you build the tool to. Okay, I can build out what's important on a four point inspection or I want to do six points or eight points in a trailer and you give them the flexibility, which takes us a lot more coding, but it gives the configurability to the customer.

[A]

Well, like what? Yeah, the latest iteration. One of the big changes for our training product is that before as is currently, you have to have an admin go in and like understand all of the content within the platform and then assign that content to groups of individuals or individuals.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is obviously very cumbersome and very complex. But now we have it where it's going to start to be a custom feed for each individual.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Based on what the company wants them to see, based on their experience level, based on their position.

[B]

Okay. Which is obviously more powerful messaging. Cause it's personal.

[A]

Yeah. So it's more effective for each individual and then it's far easier to administer on the other side, which means it will be used more.

[B]

In theory, Smart makes A lot of sense. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot more coding to give that flexibility.

[A]

And our answer right now is not the complete answer. It's our best answer. Like you said, it's the 80%. We still have to get it out there and see, but that in itself is just a dramatic improvement. But I love software now because you can. It's so malleable. You're just dealing in bits. It's not. You can. If you need to go smash something, you can just go smash it and rebuild it. It's not nearly as dramatic as, like, yep, let's remodel this part of the office, because it doesn't work anymore.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and if you're an inventor, like, that's the best part about software.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The most gratifying thing for me with Tenna and starting this company is like, to walk into a shop and then see us on the board. Like, you know, and that, you know, you kind of get the chills from that because you can remember, like, that sketch or talking to the product manager and like, hey, I think this should go here. And, yeah, that's fun. I mean, that's the empowerment. It's the same pride you probably have when you see a bridge job complete. I built that, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you. But. But with you being a construction guy, you can probably relate to this. Software is. I honestly sometimes forget about the impact it's creating out in the world because I don't see it as much.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Whereas, like, if you're building a bridge, you see it every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it. There's. There's, like, that immediate connection that is. I'm working hard here, producing this over time. Whereas with what we do now, it's more. Even what I do on social media storytelling, it's just a lot squishier. So you kind of forget. I forget all the time that anybody, like, listens to this podcast or watches what we do or reads anything I put out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then every once in a while.

[B]

Like I was saying last night, I was having dinner with some guys in Nebraska. Like, oh, tell Aaron. We love this stuff. That's cool.

[A]

But that's, like. To me, that's, like, a helpful reminder. Oh, okay. What I'm doing makes a difference.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Which is good. It's just more abstract now that it's in the digital world.

[B]

Yeah. But software, I mean, it is emotional. Right. If you think about how much we're touching and experiencing with any platform, like, you can quickly love it, or you'd be like, oh, this is really frustrating. So that user experience on how they, how they experience your product is sometimes, I think, more emotional than how you been driving over a bridge. Right. Yeah, that's how I get somewhere. You know, there's a lot of blood, salt and tears to building that. But you're not actually acting in that bridge every day or, you know, mentally moving in it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is. That is a fair point. And I'm sure the people using your product, they're in it a lot. Like, they're doing a lot with it because it's now part of their day to day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In some. In some way.

[B]

Or they're receiving a report from it. Yeah, right. They're using. They're going to make a decision on that report.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, when, when it's up in like a shop or something like that, is that like. I'm sure that's like a dashboard of some sort with their. Yeah. So information or something like that. They're.

[B]

Yeah. So the old whiteboard is now a screen. And that screen might have our map, it may have our work order system on it, may have our dispatching board. And then if you see the foreman with the app open, doing a maintenance request, putting in information, doing an inspection, requesting a piece of equipment for a job, that's how they're acting on it.

[A]

So the foreman can do all that through the app, huh?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Mobile. I think we have higher mobile usage than we do from our desktop app. Our desktop app is very robust and our mobile is just as robust, but it's easier to get places.

[A]

So they're able to submit, like, the windows broken. They can submit that through the app?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

They can do. So they can do the equipment inspection.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Hey, everything else is good. Windows broken. And then that becomes a maintenance request.

[B]

Maintenance. Yeah, maintenance request. Which then be applied to a work order.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Then you can apply your time to that and then your parts to that.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's pretty slick.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's. That's been working on it for a while. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Well, it's. It's connecting dots. Well, it's, it's. It's. I don't know if you get caught up in this. I certainly do. You get caught up in. I don't know, it's not the comparison game. But you look at people, you're like, man, they're. They're really far along. And then you ask them, like, how long have you been doing this? You know, you said a decade. It's like.

[B]

Yeah. 10 years.

[A]

Well, if you work on one problem for a decade, I hope we get.

[B]

I hope we get close after 10.

[A]

I hope so. Yeah.

[B]

Otherwise something else is not going right.

[A]

You know, is, is most everything you said electrical contractors, but a majority is heavy civil in your world.

[B]

Yeah, heavy civil. Really self perform.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So if asset ownership and rentals big part of your business. Yeah, we're involved.

[A]

I've had to explain that to a lot of people. They ask like, why aren't we in the building world? That is the biggest difference. And I think it's, it's a, it's a huge difference. I view the GC world as like, there are some parallels, but it's totally different as far as I'm concerned.

[B]

Yeah. We work with GCs if they have a fleet or we'll work with their subs.

[A]

Yep, yep, yep.

[B]

But if you're like a pure CM and you don't own any assets, then we're just. It's not a big enough problem. Right.

[A]

Well, yeah. And you're, yeah. You're an asset based company, so. Yeah. If you don't have assets, then it doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is why we haven't worked with you. We have two assets in our fleet.

[B]

Or your pickup truck and.

[A]

Yeah. And another pickup truck.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I used to, we can track it if you want.

[A]

I used to think like, oh, we'll have you know, this big fleet, everything like that. It's just, I don't know, for me as a business owner, it is funny. When did you start? How old were you when you started? You were in your 20s, right?

[B]

Yeah. So I'm 36 now, so. Yeah.

[A]

So you're 26.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But you like in your 20s and I'm still in my 20s. I'm saying this, still in my 20s. You don't fucking know anything. And your metrics of success are sometimes like, you look back on it, you're like, that is so ridiculous. I thought that that would be a indicator of how well I was doing in business.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

And one of those that I just, I just shake my head at now is like how many vehicles we'd have. Because I thought, because when I started we were driving all over the United States in a vehicle and so my, like my pickup truck was a key tool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But now for the sake of time, fly a lot more and spend way more time in rental cars. Way more time in rental cars. Sure. And like even next week I'm, I have to go out to North Carolina, South Carolina, to shoot something and to get out there. I figured it was easiest because it would, it would be a connection. And I don't, I really don't like connections. So it's about the same time. So I'm just going to drive out there, but instead of driving my truck and driving back, the flight back from where I'm at is a direct flight, which is only like an hour versus like a seven or eight hour drive.

[B]

Come back.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm just going to rent a car here, drive it out there, leave it, fly back. But that's the kind of stuff back in the day I would have never done. Like, oh yeah, we could just have cars all around the United States and this and that. But now I look back on it.

[B]

But there's also something cool about that. You know, it's, it's. I'm not saying it's cool for business.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

But there's a pride in having your trucks out there. We have, we have our trucks out there and yeah, it's not a massive fleet, but, you know, necessary. And we still fly mechanics around, but when we can drive, we'll drive with our trucks.

[A]

And are they just dispersed across the United States then?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. So they. Do they just take the truck home?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yep. Or we'll bring it to basically central location and pa.

[A]

Okay. Do you have. So are. I guess a lot of your workforce is remote then?

[B]

Yeah, about 80%.

[A]

About 80, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Most of our management is local.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So we moved our corporate offices to Pennsylvania. And what we do for our management team is once a quarter we just come and work in the office together.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We have like a quarterly, you know, KPI meeting. But, you know, there's things get lost in. How many zoom calls are you going to set up? So to walk down the office and talk to somebody, you solve a lot of problems. But for our engineering organization, our sales organization wants to be local. Our customer success wants to be close to our customers. So it works out. And then I would say, you know, we still have an office, we have a warehouse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we physically get together a lot, but 80% remote staff.

[A]

And so your customer success too is spread out across the United States.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By. By area, by territory. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you have the same territories with sales and customer success?

[B]

Not exact one for one, but it's pretty close.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. How are you guys doing marketing nowadays? So driving leads, I guess.

[B]

Yeah. So we, we try everything. Right. We're big into the associations. Right. Agc. AGC California. I was just at AMP this week. Nuka Guca. I feel there's great associations and we always invest and want to partner with them. Not just the national chapters, but the local chapters as well. It's a necessary evil. But Google, they have optimized their algorithm to make as much money as possible but still get you good leads. So we play with that. Then we have a great team of SDRs that go out there and make calls and try to book appointments for us and pair and work with our sales reps out there who also book appointments.

[A]

What have you guys found most effective in approaching. How do you approach a contractor? What's the most effective way to do.

[B]

That in a genuine way? For equipment managers, they're getting called a million times a day, always being sold. We like to research the company. We just don't call some up. Hey, how are you tracking your fleet? It's like, well, maybe you guys won this project. How you look in the scale, Kind of ask, be curious about their business and see if we're a fit. Cause if we're not a fit, we're not. But if we are, we can be really impactful. So it takes a little more research, but I think it's a little more genuine in how we approach them.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

And then build the relationships. I mean, I've made a lot of good friends in this industry now and that's. Yeah, there we go. Got the booger.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're. It is amazing though because I'm sure you get reached out to by salespeople all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I always took.

[B]

I feel like I take the calls a lot more than I used to.

[A]

I. Yeah. I.

[B]

Or I say, hey, man, you're a great sdr. Do you want to work for Tenna?

[A]

It's a recruiting. Oh, maybe I should be doing that more. Huh? I. It is amazing though how lazy a lot of these salespeople are. Like, they don't even if they were to. If they had just done a very, very. They could have done a two minute search.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And learned that I'm not in that market that they're serving. That they're saying I'm serving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a lot of times people think we're a construction company. Sure. So the amount of times I'm reached out to by people trying to transport my shit that doesn't exist is just mind boggling. Or they do short term loans for contractors or whatever it is. It's just like, guys, I don't Even if I wanted to buy from you. I'm not in your.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do that on sales interviews. My first question is always, so what do you think we do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if there isn't a good answer on, you haven't spent 10 minutes on our website, you haven't researched us, you don't know a little background about the company, then. Then you're probably just taking an interview. But if you did your homework, like, I think that's important.

[A]

That's a good question.

[B]

Actually. I saw this commercial, you saw the new Apple Intelligence commercial about using AI, and this person's like, something's in my nose, about to go into a meeting, and I'm a big technologist and AI fan, but I was like, I don't like this commercial because here's. You have this Persona who's about to go into a meeting and they didn't do their homework, so they're just talking to the phone to get that information. Like two minutes before the meeting.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But they nail it because, like, Apple Intelligence bailed them out. And I'm like, mike, that's good. But I think there's gotta be more discipline. If you're gonna meet somebody, research the night before. Be respectful of their time. Don't wing it.

[A]

But do you think that person will last? It's like, okay, cool. I mean, ideally, if you're. They probably would last at like a big corporation because I feel like once you're in, you can kind of like hide. Hide away at a company like yours. Like, you can't hide.

[B]

No.

[A]

So I, I think it was.

[B]

Everybody's working hard.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it would be apparent at some point and they would, you gotta get on your way. Yeah, but, but still, it wastes your time and, and, and their time and sets everybody back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's okay. Just then we're just not a place for you.

[A]

Right, sure.

[B]

That's all right. You probably have a good career somewhere else, but I'm not going to take offense to it. You're just not going to work at 10.

[A]

Yeah. Has hiring been all that challenging for you guys?

[B]

We have a really good recruiting team and I think hiring is always proactive, so we're always looking for talent. So I would say pre Covid, it was actually a little harder. And after Covid, I think, and as we've grown, like our brand's grown, so it's always a challenge. We're always looking for top people. And I think that in any company, but I wouldn't say it's harder now than it was before. It's like we don't have the challenge I think our clients do on finding in the construction space.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And that's what you're addressing?

[A]

That's what we're trying to work on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't have any answers yet. If you got any, let me know. But we're trying to crack that nut. I don't know, maybe one day. Yeah. I mean, since COVID you guys have, I feel like, grown quite substantially.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's been a good few years for you, but I guess you also kind of COVID related, but not really like. Yeah, the industry's, I think, grown substantially over the past few years.

[B]

Yeah. I think the tech adoption's grown and.

[A]

Tech adoption.

[B]

Yeah. And we've. We've got good people. We've just worked really hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say since 2019 is when we really started scaling the company. And yeah, that's now we're at 490 contractors and about 100,000 assets tracked on the platform.

[A]

Is data a big side of a big part of this?

[B]

In what way?

[A]

Like you're gathering a ton of data.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

A lot of data about all kinds of different machines in all kinds of different places.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Are you able to do anything and learn things from that quite yet, or is that maybe down the road? But that's not why we're doing it.

[B]

Can, but it's not like our focus. Our focus is just, hey, this is for the customer. So you have good data to run your operations better.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm not aggregating fault codes across D6s and saying, okay, this is the optimal time. I do think over time we could probably, with partners say this is the right time to sell a piece in your fleet based on the profit and loss of your fleet. But that's also going to require all of the data from your work order system on the cost side and then the billing side to make that conclusion. But what we tell our customers is there's a lot of tools that do reporting. There's a lot of tools that give you data off machines. But Tenna helps you build better data because we've built the OPS tools to gather that and actually be actionable on that. Sure. Again, Power Bi great reporting tool, but it's not going to help you build that data. And that's what we've invested in.

[A]

When you sell these companies on this, are you typically replacing anything or do they have nothing?

[B]

Yeah, good question. Used to be a lot more greenfield and I don't want to speak ill of our competitors on this, but yeah, we're replacing a lot, you know. Yeah. So if you're, if you're a construction company, we're your guys. Right. If you're just an on the road company, there's a lot of good options out there.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But you're building stuff and you have iron end fleet and attachments and tools. Like 10, 10 should be your choice.

[A]

Because you've, you've built the product specifically for that market.

[B]

Yeah. We've been laser focused on vertical high quality software.

[A]

Sure. Which I think goes a long way. And we're asked all the time, are you going to go into this market? That market. And I really struggle with it because it's. We, we, I would argue we can't go into another market. We have to focus exclusively on this market.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

We have to master this market. And once we do that, I don't know when that'll be. That could be a long time from now. Maybe we could think about something else. But it has to be, and that's why it's working is because it's specifically for this market and. Yes. Does it frustrate other people because we won't work with them? Yeah, it does. Or are we turning down good opportunities? Yeah, sure we are. But that's especially in a world like heavy civil. You have to speak directly to them and you have to build specifically for them, for them to trust you or else it just doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah. And the nuances matter, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you can have like a fleet management or a training program, but what are those small impacts that the software is making that drives adoption, that drives the reports, that actually drives more profit that, that has to be mastered. And I think there's like also something to say about having a passion for a craft.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And like you do. Right. So you can't be a master of everything, but if you want to really be the best at something, you got to, you got to laser focus.

[A]

Well, even on the video side of things, people are like, oh, you should cover this, you should cover that. Like I could, but I don't want to. I'm not excited about it. Yeah. And that's nothing, that's nothing against that. It's just not what gets me going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's as simple as that. Like I don't want to be looking at stuff, spending time with stuff that just doesn't get me going.

[B]

Like we both think machines are cool.

[A]

Yes. But even like I've given up on like press Days for heavy equipment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is interesting because you'd think, oh, you'd want to be around the latest and greatest. But it just doesn't interest me. Looking at a machine and hearing about the fucking numbers, about how it's 13% more efficient. I don't understand what that means. I don't. It's just. It doesn't get me going. I'd rather just see it blown and going. Making money out in the field. Yeah, like that. That's my thing. Even trade shows just don't. Don't really do it for me anymore. Because it's like, okay, yeah, that's a nice tractor. Covered in Pine Sol or whatever they put on these damn things. Tire shine, whatever. I mean, the machines are just so shined up, almost blinding. You have to walk around, sunglasses. But it just like, to me, it's artificial. It's like the blade shouldn't be yellow. Like, the bucket shouldn't be black. It should be rusty. It should be. It should be covered in mud and caked in, you know, whatever. Whatever it's working on. Like, I want to see it working. I want to see it doing its job.

[B]

Like, to agree with you.

[A]

Well, yeah, well, just like a stationary machine. There's no story to it. Like, I don't find the machine. It's. I'm not a person. I'm not very mechanically inclined, so I don't get very excited about the machine itself. I get excited about what the machine does.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And some people get excited about the machines.

[B]

So if you get, like, a new car, like, the new car smell is cool.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

[B]

But you had that your first car, which has got those stories, which does not look anything like probably a new car, but you have, you know, have those memories with it. So, I mean, I think, you know, Con Expo, you know, two years ago, I think it's cool to see in one spot all these machines just. It excites me. But I do get, you know, if you're out there and you can. You have the air and actually working in the machines and that's different.

[A]

No, and it's just a personal preference, even. I've just, like. Especially for storytelling or like this podcast, if I wasn't all that interested in you and what you're doing, it's a shitty product.

[B]

Likewise.

[A]

I feel like people, they pick up on that. Like, they know they can feel if I'm, like, interested in what's going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's just a different energy to it. Like, you don't have to Ask yourself what Steve Irwin stoked on lizards. Like, it's pretty clear he was just. You don't get that fired up if you're not really fired up. There's nothing manufactured about it. And even if it was manufactured, you can't sustain that level of excitement over a period of time. Like, I feel like time is what really shows you who is who. Because, like, what you're doing, for example, if you weren't really stoked on it, you would have given up. What, like, first month.

[B]

We've iterated our products, you know, six times. And, you know, entrepreneurship is hard, but, you know, it's a long game, and I think, you know, people forget that. Yeah, but all contractors are like that. Contractors are entrepreneurs. Right?

[A]

Correct. Yeah.

[B]

You're always inventing, you're always pushing, and if you don't get pumped about the challenges, then you probably should have a different career, you know?

[A]

Well, and that. I think that's what gives you an advantage too, because you have that contractor pedigree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's where you started.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of respect for it. And, you know, I guess I'm more traditional and like, that hard work mentality. I see ads that sometimes say, like, work smarter or harder, and like, no, it's. It's got to be both, you know?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

You know, so I. I just have. I have a respect for that. Like you said, hey, I'm in the office early this morning. Come by. I'm like, great. I'm. I'm up to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Love to chat before we do this, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I like that, but that's. That's my personal preference. Doesn't mean it's right 100% of the time. Right. But no, I mean, entrepreneurship is a journey, but once you start seeing momentum and then momentum with your people, like, that's. That. That gets me equally as jazzed to seeing the product, seeing. Seeing our teams work together, seeing our teams work with our customers. And we had a customer event this year, which was one of our earlier ones, and to see how people are using the product, but giving us much better ideas than we would have thought of. I was like, that's. That's cool. This is fun. You know, we're having. We're having a lot of fun here. So you.

[A]

You brought customers together.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And talk to them about probably current product, future potential product.

[B]

Yeah. Impact on reality.

[A]

Got their feedback.

[B]

Yep. What's working, what's not working? What do you want to see us build? We have this choice and where we can invest. Let's do a poll, who wants it, who doesn't, why, you know, so. And then just, you know, hang out and get to know each other.

[A]

Did you have to really sell people coming to that or was it pretty easy to get people to show up?

[B]

No, we had good attendance.

[A]

Good turn up.

[B]

Yeah. Nice. It wasn't a ma. It wasn't like a huge, you know, it was more of, let's just bring some customers together and we're going to continue to do like these almost peer group sessions versus major events. Eventually we'll do that, but right now they're more like peer groups.

[A]

Yeah. The Dan attended one this past year with Milwaukee and was like, man, this was, it was, it was them, you know, and they invited like the key. A key guy from like Kiewit and a key guy from, you know, you gotta go down the list. They were all there and they put them up. They, they, they have cool people come in speak. It's like this whole event. So everybody's getting a lot out of it, but then they just get feedback on where they're going, what they're, what people like, what people don't like about their products.

[B]

Yeah. And we bring our, our head of product with our customers. So it's not like, hey, we're just going to go through the sales organization. Like, we want to get our engineers talking to our customers.

[A]

Sure, yeah. Yeah, we want to do that next year at some point. But it's fun. Yeah, it is.

[B]

You guys are doing lots of events.

[A]

So we are doing a lot of events. We got the big one. Yeah. So we can kind of do it at the events. But also that's, that's not the purpose of the events we've been putting on so far. But we've got some cool ones next year. I mean, we'll have the summit next year, which, like I told you, we already have the agenda figured out, everything like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's stacked.

[B]

All right.

[A]

In Dallas. Then we have. We're going to have one at WyoTech. I don't know, I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about this, but whatever. Wyotech, which I had Jim Mathis on the podcast, and it is like one of the most fascinating stories I've ever heard in this world.

[B]

Where is that?

[A]

It's in Wyoming.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he. So this guy, I think he's in his 70s, so older guy. He was back in the day a student at WyoTech, then taught at WyoTech, then goes around and does all this stuff in the education world. He's a rancher. WyoTech, years ago, is on the brink of closing. It had like 20 students, and they come to him. And I don't know, I would need to re. Listen to the interview, but it was something along the lines of like, hey, do you want to. Do you want to buy this thing? So he put together a group. They bought it, and now I think they're. And this wasn't that long ago, like less than 10 years ago, probably. And now they're 2,000 plus students. And when they have a career fair, you've got all the dealers, the cat dealers, truck dealers, everything flying their planes into. Where are they? Maybe Sheridan. Into wherever they are in Wyoming to hire all these kids.

[B]

Wow. That's awesome.

[A]

It's incredible. I think it's probably the finest, the sole technician program in the United States.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's so, so incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're gonna have an event there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And everybody will be able to see the facility. They'll be talking about it, do tours, and we'll have other people come in as well. And then we're gonna have an event with John Deere.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

At their. At their facility in the Midwest. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Very cool.

[A]

Which should be awesome.

[B]

Very cool. Yeah.

[A]

So, uh, but we're trying. We're trying to focus. So it's like, what can we do? Well, let's have two smaller workshops, unique locations, focused on two specific topics. And then we'll have the summit focused on leadership workforce development. That'll be much, much bigger.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

A couple have done. Really? Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll, like you. I'll go to all the other stuff next year, I'm sure.

[B]

Bounce around the country.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But it's just, there's. So, I mean, you guys are probably working in just about every state in the Union now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So we're all around the US and some in Canada, so.

[A]

Yeah. But I mean, that's. It starts to become just a lot to cover for somebody like you.

[B]

Yeah, I can't cover the country like I used to, but that's why we have a good team.

[A]

When did you do your road trip?

[B]

Oh, yeah, though. During COVID During COVID I got the rv. It's kind of like what you did. We had the same idea. Right. I mean, I can't show. Might as well get an RV and hit the road. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

How far did you go when you did that?

[B]

We started in Jersey. We Made our way all the way down to Georgia. Went over to Tennessee, went all the way down to Florida. I'm sorry. Went up to Maine too. So all the east coast and kind.

[A]

Of east of the Mississippi.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't. We didn't go out west with it at that time, but yeah, that was about. In over a month, you know, just going and demoing people in their yards. And many of them are customers today and they remember that rv. And I'm like, yeah, cool.

[A]

I feel like that's.

[B]

And it wasn't like a tricked out. It was just, you know, a small.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A small thing. And actually one of my favorite stops was here in Nashville. The RV park in Nashville is awesome.

[A]

Nice. Nice.

[B]

I am a. I do know a lot of the RV parks in the US We. Nice lake here.

[A]

When we did it, it was. I mean, most of my friends have. Or the companies we're visiting, they all have shops.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They have yards, they all have property. So I. We stayed at maybe. I think we stayed in RV park in West Texas, which was a shithole. Go figure. And then stayed at an RV park in Astoria, Oregon, which was gorgeous. But I think those are the only two RV parks we stayed in in five weeks.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think we almost exclusively stayed at like people's shops or like at people's houses.

[B]

That would have been a better idea.

[A]

Well, because I like, logistically, you gotta figure out.

[B]

Dump the rv. So that's what.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, that's what you do along the road. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd find like a. Probably whole podcast on that.

[B]

No one wants to listen.

[A]

But then you get like. It takes you a week to figure it out. And then once you have a system, it actually works quite well.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But we.

[B]

Small Dyson vacuum.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, yes. And then try to take your dumps elsewhere.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like. Like, if you can avoid taking, like.

[B]

All right. Yeah, let's get a little bouncy.

[A]

Yeah. Do your paperwork elsewhere. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The.

[A]

But it was. It was like I was talking to Jack about the other day. It was definitely type two fun. Where I think five weeks was. Was two weeks too long for us. And we were. We were moving at a ridiculous pace too. And the days we were doing, like.

[B]

Yeah. We were calling in front of these spots, trying to book as many appointments as possible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like an air cover team that was like, hey, we're in the area.

[A]

Oh, really? Oh, that's how you did it.

[B]

Yeah. So we would have appointments and then we'd say we're going to Be there. Can we stack three or four more?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

See as many people as possible. And. Because, Covid, you want to keep the business going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

And everybody's working.

[B]

Everybody's working.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess we did a road trip during COVID too. Yeah. We drove. We did four weeks across the United States. But not. We didn't do an rv. Rv. But it was probably the same logic was, you know, I. Everything shuts down Con Expo, and then you wait around in April, you're like, okay, you know, just trying to see what the heck's going on. Like everybody else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, you know, end of April comes around. It's like, well, construction hasn't stopped. Everybody's still. Still going, except for a few key places, like, mostly outside is one of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so by the time. And that was the point in business that I was in, we were just a few years in at that time where, you know, I ate whatever I killed. So it wasn't like, oh, I could just. Oh, yeah, let me just hang out for a while. Like, that's not the program I was on.

[B]

Like, let's.

[A]

Let's really work through our COVID policy. Like, yeah, I was in a different, different world. And it's like, hey, if I'm. If I'm not going out and doing this work, the business shuts down. There's. There's no. There's no government program for me. There's no savings for me. Yeah. So I don't. I don't have a choice here. But I. I, you know, you also. I'm. I know critical thinking is not one of the things that's in nowadays, but I like to think I'm a critical thinker as well and can digest information and can make my own decisions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I got to a point where beginning of May is like, we've got to go out and get. Get out there. But then I also don't want to show up at a. At a job site or to meet people or right off a plane, because that might freak some people out. I don't know if it would have or not, but just from, like, a perception standpoint, not the best plan. So I just devised a route across the entire United States. We just got in the pickup truck, me and angel, and start the road.

[B]

Yeah, that's it. That's awesome. Yeah.

[A]

We went from Arizona all the way to Pennsylvania, down to Florida, and then all the.

[B]

It's a great way to see the country, though.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Like, if you haven't done it I think you should. You should do that in your lifetime.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do a long road trip.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when.

[B]

What the lessons learned we've talked about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But I do. I do appreciate when that's like an old couple doing it. Like, yeah, we're just driving across the United States for the next three months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or that's, you know, that's what a lot of foreign people do. Like, every Australian I've met, they can rattle off all of these really obscure places they've been in the United States. They'll either. It's usually New York City, which is just a damn shame that that's the first place people go, or Vegas. Damn shame.

[B]

I would say more that about Vegas.

[A]

New York, New York's fine to visit San Francisco. Like, they go to these cape Los Angeles. And I'm always just like. Like, that's your perception of America.

[B]

Like about Casper.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But then they'll be like, and then Casper, Wyoming and Oklahoma City. And then they'll. Because, oh, yeah, we did a road trip, you know, across the Midwest. And I'm like, who the fuck would do a road trip across the Midwest?

[B]

Yeah, probably, like, if we want y'all Australia and like, drove to Perth. Yeah, like, why would you do that?

[A]

Why would you do that? Yeah, exactly. Yes, that's exactly it. They just don't know any better. But yeah, like, one of my friends, Jimmy, he'll be here next month. He'll be at the summit, and he wants to go visit all 50 states. Yeah, he's from Australia. And so, like, the last time, every time he's here, he just does some stupid road trip, like driving across, like, the panhandle of Texas and Oklahoma and. Or down into New Mexico. Like some. A trip you would never do, but just across states off the list. Yeah, I like it.

[B]

Yeah, I do appreciate it. To each their own. Yeah, to each their own.

[A]

I do appreciate it. Where, I guess, what does the next year look like for you guys?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, we have a good sized team. I mean, this year we were ranked like 18th fastest growing software company in the country.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So we're moving and it's just like, stay disciplined, keep listening to our customers, keep iterating on the product. I do think we've solved a lot for the operations teams. The equipment manager, the VP of ops, the owners. And I would like the finance teams to also live in Tenna because equipment management is operations and finance. And the more we can think about building products to bring the controllers in, bring the CFOs in. That's where we're looking at. As well as other things. Like on the material side, there's opportunity. But put it this way, there's no shortage of just use cases and ideas just for equipment, fleet management.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We probably have five years of more developments we could do well.

[A]

And before this, we were talking. You guys have a distinct advantage because you're Switzerland, you're agnostic, whereas there's a lot of like all the manufacturers are trying to do fleet management right now and are doing fleet management.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But their problem is they're a manufacturer. Like they can only go so far. And a lot of times people don't trust them because they're a manufacturer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That neutrality is, I think, essential to actually doing what you're doing. And then if they're heavy equipment manufacturer, they can't help you with your pickup trucks. But you've got this massive pickup fleet or small tools fleet or whatever it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas you can be across the board.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, our only goal is to serve the end customer, which is a contractor, and provide great software for them. We don't make machines, we don't sell parts. So just on that core business model gives us an advantage to always be thinking on how we can benefit and then also work within the ecosystem. I don't view the OEMs as competitors. I view them as partners. Like they have great data coming from their machines.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

A lot of times people have mixed fleets. They want to centralize that. They have older fleets. They may need our hardware. If you have a new John Deere cat and you want to ingest that. So I think it's, you know, how do you pull everything together? But then also like natively, like vertically integrate it because customers also get aggravated. Now I have to go like 20 different spots.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And buy another tool to push the data. Like our vision is like we are, we provide this service, you can talk to us and then we will control and ensure quality with the rest. And the data you want, it's your data, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So we're talking about that too. Because it's. If I were to buy a, you know, any kind of machine, a lot of times it's not my data, which is weird. I just don't understand. And the whole right to repair stuff, I'm very for. Because I think that's, I think a lot of the technology and emission stuff. I've started to understand lobbying a little bit better. I started to understand, you probably know.

[B]

A lot more than me.

[A]

Well, I know. I don't. I just know the basics. And that is these government regulations don't just magically appear because.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it's not just for, you know, it's not you growing up. You think, you know, the government's here to make life better and they make these regulations to make life better for everybody. But then you learn about lobbying, and it's a lot of companies spending a lot of money to get certain things in play that help their business out a little bit.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's a little insane to sell someone a $700,000 tractor and say, but we're the only ones that can fix it. Or the data coming off that tractor is actually ours. We'll share it with you. But we'll share. Well, it's on our terms. Like, what are you talking about? How does that work? To me, that makes no sense.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, are you renting or you're actually owning?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I think that's the core part of it. If you're renting a house and you're renting an apartment, it's not yours, which I understand. But if you buy that land, that's the agreement, and you buy it and you have that. That has to be detailed. You don't get to only own part of the washing machine. Yeah. It's a big debate in the industry now. I think you have to always look from the customer back and what's going to make any service provider software, oem, mechanic services. Just think from the customer back and put yourself in their shoes. If you continue to do that, then you have the right business call.

[A]

Well, and the customers, I would say, very proud. I would like to just fix my own machines.

[B]

Or I want optionality or I want options. I think. So that whole thing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No contractor likes to have something held over him. No. And no one likes that. But especially in construction, they don't want to, you know. What do you mean? You got that? Let me see that one more time. Contractors aren't going to get bullshitted, period. They're smart. They do contracts. Right. So you got to be open, got to be upfront and give optionality. If XYZ provides a great repair service and that's what they want to do, Fantastic. They have a mechanic that's been with them for 25 years and wants to do themselves, they should have that option.

[A]

Sure. But that's where I think, like, if you look at the most successful equipment dealers, they understand that. Yep, they understand. Hey, if I just help my customer do what they need to do, which is dig a hole or build a road. It's not, it's not really about equipment like all these, all the assets you manage are tools to actually, what are they there to do to go build something. And I think the best, even technology companies, dealers, service providers, they don't forget that. This isn't actually, we don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. We're just here to provide a solution.

[B]

You fall in love with the outcome.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So yeah, and if that's, you know, the machine to dig the hole or the software to make the right decision on how to repair or utilization. Same out. Yeah, same goal.

[A]

But you can't forget about the hole. Like that's the goal is, is, is whatever, whatever we're doing.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Which I, I think that's like a core thing I've seen with anybody successful in this world is they don't, they don't forget that or they were built upon that and they haven't forgotten it. Once you forget it, I mean, it might take a while for it to catch up with you. It will because some of these big companies are just, they're so insulated. But I can't imagine that not catching up with them at some point, especially with this newer generation of contractors coming up too. Like the whole status quo thing for you has created the opportunity you're serving. Yeah, in a lot of ways. Has created the opportunity we're serving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then has also created this whole new generation of new contractors that are sitting around saying, hey, maybe there's a better way to build stuff.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. Like if you're like a Gen Z or coming in, you need good tech. That's going to be an important thing on how you are recruited.

[A]

Well, and they don't. And they don't. But. And these, these younger people starting these companies too, they're able to move faster because they don't have all of these, they don't have the 75 years of history that is in some ways a liability. Like, sure, it's a huge advantage because you have this monster balance sheet and yeah, you have this big resume, so on and so forth, banking relationships. I don't know what it is that all matters. Like, I'm not going to say that doesn't matter. Huge advantage. But to think that that's all you need nowadays, you're going to be so mistaken. And I think a lot of these faster or even these bigger companies that are shaking themselves up, they're going to eat the lunch of a lot of other companies.

[B]

Yeah, I think it goes back. I was talking to somebody two days ago about this, and there's also, like, I feel sometimes like the entrepreneur gets glorified. Here's the guy went out and took a gamble. But what goes, like, not talked about enough is good entrepreneurship. You may have those older companies, but no matter their age, they're creative. They want to look at things different ways, they want to challenge it, and they want to almost break it down to its core and say, is this the right way with the tools available today? And I think that's equally impactful from what you're doing, what I'm doing in the market. But also people at companies that are just creative and then can leverage both. They can leverage that balance sheet and they can look at it with a clean slate.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

I think it's. I think it's more like a mindset than it is. And how do you look at that mindset through an older lens or sometimes easier if you have a clean slate. Right. You have that opportunity.

[A]

Yeah, it can. It can be. I think the companies that will do the best are the ones that you just explained, like, the ones that I always list off. And they're probably a lot of your customers, like, like a, like a C.W. matthews. You know, they've been around 70 plus years, but they're constantly asking, how do we do this differently? How do we be better? Which I absolutely love. I think that's. And so they have this, you know, do they have all the asphalt plants? Yeah, they have all the asphalt plants. You know, do they.

[B]

It still helps.

[A]

Yeah. Boy, does it. Yeah. Are they Georgia's largest highway contractor? They are.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And they could just so easily sit back and be like, you know what? We're just going to do our thing because it hasn't steered us wrong so far, and we're just going to keep running this play. And if I were them in their position, I probably would do that because I think in a lot of ways that makes more sense at face value.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they've identified, hey, our biggest risk now is workforce. And so what do we need to do to solve for that? We need to be more efficient. We need to implement more technology. We need to get more engaged with our community. We need to develop people in different ways, which is, to me, super, super cool to see.

[B]

Yeah, no, I agree. And I think with any business problem, I just don't think you can invent in your own box.

[A]

No.

[B]

And you may think you're creative, but you're only inventing within four walls. And I think what you've done well in the market is you create these opportunities for people to talk about these problems and challenge it and actually get expert opinion. Like, if I'm facing a business problem, I'm going to have my thesis. Then I want, like, 20 people to tell me why I'm wrong.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Always, like, bang on it. Bang on it, please. Right. And if it's the labor issue or if it's equipment issue, getting that kind of group thought, that peer group thought accelerates at the right solution. And the right solution may be new. It may be like a 10% tweak, and that's equally as okay.

[A]

And it probably is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something. Yeah. It's not, I don't think, all that dramatic.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It really isn't, which is why I'm really optimistic, because it's not like we need to really go reinvent ourselves here.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes those words like revolutionize. Reinvent. Yeah. That's great. It gets disrupt. Gets me really disrupting.

[A]

Damn it.

[B]

Yeah. How about just solve the problem? This is the problem to be solved, and let's work together to get it.

[A]

I think to me, it's the traditional equipment manager Persona is like, old timer, better on the block. Can tell me everything about probably every machine in the fleet, but basically operates on, like, witchcraft in a way. Like, they know how they manage their fleet, but like me, it's not really based on anything but, like, what they know and understand in their experience, which works out really, really well while they're there. But, like, to me, as a younger individual getting into a business, I would be a lot more excited to work with a company that has something like Atena.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because then it allows me to better understand the fleet and how we're managing it and the data that we're gathering and why that data is that way and why that, like, it. It allows me to be at a more junior level, to be more engaged in the business.

[B]

Yeah. That makes. Makes a lot of sense than to.

[A]

Just, like, follow this sage equipment manager around and everything's up in his head but doesn't really exist elsewhere. I'm not explaining that very well.

[B]

No, I get. Is it. Is there the. Call him Bob in the shop who doesn't like technology, that everything's on his head in his notepad. Absolutely.

[A]

He's an amazing equipment manager. But, yeah, everything's up in their head or. Yeah. On a notepad or at best on an Excel Spreadsheet.

[B]

Yeah. And that's out there. But I would say just, and I just came from the conference, so I'll be biased, but that's where like amp, like equipment managers at that association or what we're seeing now over the last three years, they're data driven. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They are running the numbers, they are looking at the tech. They are really sharp, you know, which is exciting. Yeah. And if they're managing a thousand fleet like these guys, you know, and they're communicating with the finance team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like these guys are between the education that the association is doing and how they're looking at tools, whether it's Tenno or a new piece of equipment, like, I think the equipment manager has been upleveled a lot from just, hey, I'm never going to give you the information. My asset list is in the, you know, in the drawer. And you're never going to get that. You know, that's not the case because like, like, you know, equipment's so impactful and that it isn't impacting the bottom line.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You manage it right. You make more money, you know.

[A]

Well, and that then, you know, economics drives change. So once enough companies start doing that, operating their fleets based on data, you have to do it at a certain point, like the industry, then just. That's the standard. Because to be competitive, which is probably a huge difference in dollars and cents at the end of the day, if you can implement something like this effectively.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes a big difference on your business overall.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Then now you're bidding more competitively and now everybody else has to do that too.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we talk about the equipment black hole. So at the end of the year and you have all these expenses from your shop, do you just spread it across your jobs? And just like we say, like if there's a $100 million contractor, they may have $30 million of assets on their balance sheet, but they're spending like 20 million on equipment related activities, movement, repair, billings of IT fuel, all of that. And if you can get that 20 million just a couple percent better, that's just going to your bottom line.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So whether it's our tool or any other tools in the market, you're trying to maximize that operating cost of your equipment to be as efficient as possible.

[A]

When they, when they implement what you all are doing. What's typically the lowest hanging fruit?

[B]

Good data. Yeah, yeah. So whether that's. We're getting good maintenance data for your machines, good safety data on your fleet, just knowing how many buckets you Have.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I would say like the lowest hanging fruit is just installing the solution information.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because by going through that exercise now, you're organized now you can start to build better data and you can start now to report on it.

[A]

I see, I see. Yeah. Because. And the data becomes more and more valuable the longer as it learns and then you can. Yeah. And as you. Yeah. Get comfortable making decisions based off it. Yeah, I see. I see. I guess that makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Yeah, we think so.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What's been unexpected over the past few years?

[B]

Good question. I would say the rate of adoption is actually quicker than I thought because I used to go into offices and be just a lot of whiteboards and I do see people using a lot of systems now, but it's. Do they have the right tool and can they aggregate that information? Sure. I do think cameras and safety has grown very quickly, also driven by the insurance industry. But I think it's net positive to the industry. I guess what I'm not surprised about is just the growth of construction. So we've heard the same problem on labor for the last five years. And when I go into contractors offices around the US Usually work is not their issue, you know, which is, I think phenomenal.

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

Highlights the problem you're solving and how we gonna build the work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I think those are the main things.

[A]

You know, I am. You guys are replacing whiteboards, but I am a sucker for a good whiteboard with a bunch of equipment on it. Yeah, yeah. I do love, love seeing that.

[B]

If you like magnets, that's okay.

[A]

Yes. It's really cool when they have the machines printed out on the magnets, like a little diagram cat 330. And it'll be a little cat 330 on the magnet. Yeah. You can move it around.

[B]

Not a hater of it.

[A]

I wouldn't recommend it.

[B]

You can still have that. It could also have time.

[A]

It could be complimentary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it might be like, I know we're joking around here, but sometimes I've realized I've recognized the value in reinforcing things in different ways.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And especially from a visual sense. And so having that different visual indication of what the heck's going on is sometimes actually I think quite helpful.

[B]

Yeah. And like, if we take the whiteboard example, the whiteboard will never get all your requests from the field in.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure.

[B]

So our app's like, okay, you might still have the whiteboard, but can you centralize every superintendent's request and then query that against utilization maintenance of the machines. You could actually never do that on a whiteboard. But if I look at the whiteboard, I use a computer. I use a Mac like you. But I also love writing in nice notebooks.

[A]

Oh, boy, do I.

[B]

So I'm never going to not take handwritten notes, but I will use every tool I can on a computer to maximize my business.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and sometimes everything shouldn't be efficient either.

[B]

Yeah. Time to think.

[A]

Yeah. Even I was talking to a contractor. Oh, this was maybe a while ago, but he said they. They were having problems on a job, and then one day they just took a whiteboard out and just explained the job on a whiteboard. Just drew it out.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then everything started to get a lot more efficient and effective because everybody actually understood what the hell is going on. Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah. I mean, you can implement all the software you want, all the fancy tools you want, but sometimes it does just take. Let's just draw it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's just explain what the hell's going on here.

[B]

If you're doing. You're doing a math problem and trying to use an Excel everybody still loves. Great tool, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

But sometimes if you need to just like, actually slowly go through something, whatever business problem. I agree. Like, I'm like more of a kinetic learner. Like, I like writing notes. I like when I read, I write the notes. That's just how I process. So no technology is going to replace how you process information. Just going to aid you get that information and give you the better call.

[A]

Yeah, that's. And that's what we tell people with our training is like, I'm not here to replace any kind of seat time whatsoever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not here to replace the union's training program or your internal training. We're just here to add on to whatever the heck's going on here.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's not about replacement. It's not about. This is the only thing. Like, that's the trap I fell into when I started is. And this is the trap. I think humans just. I mean, I'm constantly in this trap that is like, just thinking a problem is simple or thinking something is binary. It's either this or that. And very rarely is it actually this or that. It's like somewhere in the middle and it's always changing based on the day and the wind and whatever the heck's going on. And so you're tempted to say, well, it's just if you do this, your problem is going to be solved. But that's not actually how the world works.

[B]

I too fall into that trap to the fact I had someone give me the binary definition because I would say it so much, but it's not.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

It's multidimensional. It's multifaceted. But sometimes it's just nice to think in that way.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's comforting because it's like, oh, I understand the world or I understand the problem I'm solving. I'm, you know, it makes you feel good. Yeah. But. Because when you start to actually think how little, you know and how little you are in, actually in control.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's kind of terrifying at times.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, it's dangerous thinking. But sometimes I think you also just have to go for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you, you know, there's always going to be some angle that says, why not? And if you're just like, oh, I am binary in the fact in my effort, then it's, it's powerful and dangerous at the same time.

[A]

You know, what are, what, what have you been learning from customers lately? Or at aemp, you know, what are you hearing? What's the word on the street? Because you're pretty well connected.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. From customers in general, it's. How do they consolidate systems? There's a lot of technology out there. Like if they may be running 30 to 60 apps to get some job done.

[A]

I've heard the same thing.

[B]

So how do you consolidate? Yeah. How do you also tie operational data and financial data together? How does that also bring the departments, the people together? So how does that tool impact the people in the company? Those are, those are the main items. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Consolidation, quality. Those are continued themes in the market.

[A]

The consolidation thing is huge, I think. And there's a lot of. I don't know if you see this, but on our side, there's a lot of contractors buying these learning management systems that are just behemoths and that cause more problems than they solve. But then they buy it. They're like, we're going to have to use it.

[B]

It's not a million apps or it's not just one. Erp.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's almost like you have a centralized system that you have specific. So HR and learning is one thing. Like that should master it. Like equipment management. That should be a piece.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then accounting should be accounting.

[A]

Yeah. But like, sometimes it goes the other way too. These, these platforms, they do too much. It's like you need three of a hundred features.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

To make. To get like 80% of the difference you need within your business. And yeah there's the, there's like the finer returns once you get the like the data for example. Yeah, but, but that like the first few things that probably happens with, with your, your data and when, when you're implementing with, with new customers like that, that's a massive gain. Yeah, just those first few things and I always. Yeah. I think we're usually greenfield or going up against this behemoth that makes things way more complicated because it does too many things. Like let's just make it as simple as possible. We don't need to make things too complicated here. And so we've tried to make our software product very, very, very simple. Very simple. As simple as possible, but no simpler according Einstein. Yeah.

[B]

And I think in a lot of ways our market market is very established. Like equipment management systems have been around. We're just trying to do it 10x better. Sure. Right where you are almost building a new market because like we were talking about there isn't this standard for you know, training someone how to operate an excavator that's so needed. And then software is a great tool for it, you know, it's a great medium to train.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And like you said, you're not going to replace any seat time but you're going to accelerate that learning. 10x.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So take a shot at it, you know.

[A]

Well, and there's. Have you seen contractors trying to build their own fleet management? Not really.

[B]

Sometimes they're very large companies and they could be great systems. But I think in general you may be able to build something but can you iterate on it? Right. Like we have 50 software engineers. We're constantly getting feedback and building new product and good software companies actually try to not reinvent but you know, supplement and challenge themselves every two years to get their product to be better. I think that's hard to keep up if you're also a contractor.

[A]

Yeah, we know. So I worked with for one that is their colors are yellow and black and they tried to develop. But they do develop a lot of their software.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is great. Like it's all. You feel cool. Like oh yeah, you know, we're the fucking best. But then you're on the phone with IT department back at the main office every day trying to try to figure it out. Which at least was my experience. I don't know if that's the experience nowadays, but it's like, yeah, I don't know, is this the best way to do it? Maybe, maybe not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've been talking about focus. Right. So you're a contractor. You know, not saying you're not entrepreneurial and going to different markets, but if you want to build the software business. Build the software business. That's what we did. We have construction roots, but 10 is a product, you know? Yeah. You know, if you're building machines, maybe build machines, you know, But I'm not here to prescribe people's business philosophies. I just. I just think focus matters. Focus and discipline matter a ton for success.

[A]

You know, it's so much more. I appreciate those two things so much more than I ever have. Focus and discipline.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It makes things so much simpler, so much more powerful, so much less stressful. You can just deliver.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that's. Yeah, I think that's largely been. But. But it's funny. It's. It's. It's. We can. You can look back and be like, oh, you know, we should have done xyz. And you also have to appreciate. No, no, no. All those things are what got us here.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So you can't. You can't play that game.

[B]

Yeah. We tracked Porta Potties for, like, you know, a quarter.

[A]

You track Porta Potties?

[B]

We thought, like, hey, maybe the waste management market's a great thing.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Not saying we don't have a couple Porta Potties tracked in our portfolio. Yeah, but it is not our focus right now.

[A]

Well, and because your core focus is contractors. Contractors don't own Porta Potties.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do companies track Porta Potties?

[B]

QR codes.

[A]

QR codes?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because it is just a giant piece of plastic.

[B]

Yep. But not my core business.

[A]

Sure. I wonder, are the Porta Potty companies probably more sophisticated ones? They probably have gps, like, GPS tracking. Is it cheap enough to put it on Porta Potties?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

No. So it's really.

[B]

Yeah, it's more manual.

[A]

It's more manual. So it's like a guy scan QR code. Okay. We have.

[B]

Yeah. I did go visit a Porta Potty manufacturer to try to get our product installed as they build the Porta Potties.

[A]

But was that in the United States or abroad?

[B]

Yeah, in Georgia.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. You know, every time you get. You get into a new Porta Potty, it's like winning the damn lottery. Like, the new Porta Potty smell. You're like this thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No one.

[B]

It's like a painted machine at Con Expo.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But. But it's bad.

[B]

You don't want to see it because.

[A]

You'Re the one that gets to peeing at first, which is. I don't know, it's so primal. You're like, yep, yeah, I've been the first one to use this port.

[B]

This is my land.

[A]

Yeah, we, we did, we did porta potty training, which was like a half joke, but it's legitimate training at the same time. I'm very proud of this course. Probably the most proud.

[B]

I have to see this course.

[A]

It's quite good. It's quite good. Yeah. I'll show you one. It's quite impressive what the training team did to make something so ridiculous, so serious. But we got a brand new Porta Potty for it from a local company, Portugal. And I made sure I was the first one to be in it. I was. So.

[B]

I'm glad we both share this deep experience with Porta Potties.

[A]

You know, somewhere in Canada they just, they just, they don't have porta Potties anymore.

[B]

What do they do?

[A]

The government came in and said you have to have legitimate bathrooms.

[B]

Like on a job site. Yep.

[A]

On a job site. No more Porta Potties.

[B]

That's difficult.

[A]

You know, that was one of those.

[B]

Things we're not gonna figure out.

[A]

There's a business opportunity for somebody there. Yeah, I saw that going around.

[B]

There's probably a lot of lobbying on that one. You know, there was something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the Party Rental Association.

[B]

Someone's making out really well.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I did. I did wonder how that was going to go. But, yeah, there for you all. Yeah, there's. There's a million different opportunities, a million different problems, but you do have to have that. And that's like the great companies out there. And not that I'm the first one to cite Apple, for example, but I think that's one thing that they've done better than most companies out there is like, we just do this. If you want us to do that, go fuck yourself. It's not what we do. It's not what we do. Not.

[B]

We do customer back and quality control.

[A]

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[B]

I think that's, that's why it's magic for Apple for that.

[A]

Yes. You know, yeah, yeah. But I see that as the, the only way to be successful in the civil construction space in this, in this world is in the dirt world. You have to be really focused. I don't see another way to do it.

[B]

Yeah. Because there's too many nuances, but there are. It's not simple. It's Complicated.

[A]

It is, but it. It is and it isn't. Because, like, an excavator is an excavator. Doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter what it's doing. Fundamentally speaking. Same damn machine.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So a lot is the same. Like, I think, again, I think it's like somewhere in the middle, every contractor is the same. Every contractor is different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think contractors oftentimes go on to the. We're really different. And it's like, yes, but you're not. Like, you would be better served if you did recognize some of the similarities with others, because what you do is not that different in the grand scheme of things. And you are not as top secret as you think you are. Like, your methodology is not. I've seen this plenty of times before. Like, there's nothing you can't. You can't put a patent on this. There's no intellectual property here.

[B]

I mean, you've visited probably more contractors than I have at this point. But I joke, you can probably tell the generation of a contractor by the shrubbery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you have those boxwoods?

[A]

Sure. Yes. Probably third or like, how much wood paneling is in the office on the walls. If there's wood on the walls, then it's like. Yeah, we're definitely third generation here.

[B]

And I think it's great. I mean, I'm fifth generation of our company, and I have a lot of pride in that. You know, but there are there just similarities and.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And like, on my travels, like, you know, you can think you're a great contractor, but there are a lot of great contractors out there.

[A]

And I think the best contractors appreciate that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And seek that knowledge and seek to understand how they can cool, like, again, like a C.J. matthews. They're not sitting around like, you know, we're the best damn road builder ever.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're. They're, they're proud of what they do, and they make amazing roads, but they're also like, you know, there's people out there doing it better than we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let's go find them, let's go learn from them, and let's go implement that here so we can get better. And then let's teach. Let's also offer up what we're doing here because we know that elevates everybody across the board.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which I think is spectacular.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's some things that are competitive and you want to keep that as a trade secret. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's some Other knowledge points that if everybody knows about it, that's just going to elevate the industry.

[A]

But how often do you really see a trade secret?

[B]

Not a ton. But I would say if you're. Maybe it's a means and methods on implementation, maybe it's material science, innovation.

[A]

I can see that.

[B]

Things that really deserve patents because you have put that R and D, you deserve that 100%. Maybe how someone retrofits a machine, but how you. Your means and methods on how you do safety or training or equipment management. Yeah, that should be more shared knowledge. Now, how you build your equipment rates, that's your business, right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But how you gather information. Yeah, everybody should gather good equipment data now.

[A]

Yeah. And I say this because if I were to ask, if I were to poll the construction industry, what's your number one competitive advantage, they'd say their workforce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then. And that's why nothing is all that secret either, because everybody's sharing people all day long. Like, if you ask, like, hey, where have you worked? Like, if you go. Go out to the crews that you were working with, have they only ever worked at your company? That was it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, the odds of that.

[B]

No, it's a really good point.

[A]

And it's like they're not, they're not bringing what they did at another company with them at their, at your competitor. Like. Yeah, everybody is.

[B]

Yeah. But I would say, like, the data is important in an IP, right.

[A]

So it is.

[B]

If you have like 75 years of doing certain types of work and you've gathered and you've archived that, that's your competitive edge, it's your people, but it's also how you mobilize those people and how you bid. So. And that if someone steals, like estimating data and takes another company, I'm like, yeah, that. That's actually wrong. That's.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Yes, that's wrong.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like on a job site, what's going on on a job site.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's where I. There's plenty of back office stuff. That is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I see stuff all the time. That's just really fucking clever. Yeah. But like, when you're building the job, there's not. Because I feel like I just had this conversation. Innovation isn't really encouraged in this world because you're building off of a design from the government in a lot of, A lot of ways.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And people would probably argue with me on that. But there, there isn't like that much dramatic innovation in how we've how we.

[B]

Build roads, we have to build to a dot spec. Right.

[A]

And it only, it only moves so fast. Yeah. And everybody's building off the same spectrum. I can't. You know what? I'm going to come up with a better spec.

[B]

That's the biggest difference. Like with software, you kind of earn. You're writing the spec.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which is really fun.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But the spec is so necessary and such important infrastructure assets. I get it.

[A]

It is.

[B]

So I agree with you. Maybe the exception of value engineering. So if you're doing different project and you do have a different approach. And that's where I've seen like, you know, peers at other companies and work where I've worked, like, get pumped up. Like, yeah, we did hard bid it this way, but let's get really creative and let's find a way to do it faster. And you know, and that's where I think the entrepreneurship and the creativity get people juiced. You know, how can we get more production, you know, and that's how they drive more profit and stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would say at its core, you're right. Has the spec changed that much? Like, has the material science changed that much in roads? No. Right. But have there been a lot of contractors on different means and methods to do things faster and better? Absolutely.

[A]

Definitely. Yes. Yes, yes. And also. No, it's also worked the other way because construction efficiencies declined substantially.

[B]

True.

[A]

Over the past 40 years, like, we've been one of the only industries that's had a significant decline in productivity. But a lot of that is also out of our control. It's the permitting, it's the legal nonsense, the environmental reviews.

[B]

Also a lot of things are now not greenfield.

[A]

A lot of things are not greenfield. Correct.

[B]

You're building a new road.

[A]

Yep, yep, yep.

[B]

Yeah, you can clear and grub and you can get going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're working in New York City or Boston, sure. That's a whole nother animal.

[A]

Yeah. You can't just knock people's houses down anymore, which I think is completely unreasonable. But yeah, pull the. You know, there's some other countries, it's like, hey, we're building a highway here.

[B]

This is our.

[A]

Right away. I am sorry. Yeah, I bet. You know, it gets done faster.

[B]

You know, there's also a lot of cameras there.

[A]

Well, that's. You know, I was talking to my brother the other day. He said he was just in Switzerland. He's like, yeah, I got two speeding tickets. I'm like, yes, you cannot speed in other countries because they have way More speeding cameras. Yeah, Way more speeding cameras everywhere else. It is insane. And really efficient.

[B]

A lot of cameras.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So many cameras. But it's. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't do it. When we were in Jordan last December. So they do their traffic stops. They have these like, kind of one highway that runs up and down the country. It's not a very big country. And it's like two lane highway, kind of like interstate. And what they'll do is they'll have a guy in like a Toyota Land Cruiser. Police, you know, police, policeman. The radar gun. Sitting in the Toyota Land Cruiser. And then another guy with like a stop sign like you'd see on a construction project. And so it's a trap. Yes. If the guy with the radar gun. You're not paying attention, you're speeding. Gets you. He signals to the guy at the stop sign, and the guy holds out the stop sign to you. And you have to pull off into this little checkpoint area. They write you a ticket. You go on your way.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And we were talking to the guy, Jordanian guy. We were at. We were like, dude, if this was the United States, that would not work.

[B]

This was 95.

[A]

That would not work. No way. Come and get me, coppers. No way.

[B]

Kick rocks.

[A]

But it's just a different culture, different society. So that's how they get you. They just stop. Oh, no, the cops got me. They don't have to chase you. Which I think is hilarious.

[B]

Yeah. But I think that's good. I mean, you've traveled the world and it's cool to see the little innovations that are much better. I went to Hong Kong almost like 15 years ago now, and they had something called the Octopus card. I think it was called that. I could be completely wrong.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But it was a single easy pass for the subway, you know, for taxis. Yeah. For getting into public areas. I'm like, wow, I lose everything. Maybe that's why I started tracking business. You know, I lose my keys, I lose my wallet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, if I can have one card, an easy pass for multiple public transports. That's pretty cool.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Versus, like a subway pass. And then paying an Uber, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then going over the one parking meter that only takes fucking quarters. I don't have quarters. Where would I. Why would I have quarters? And another one that takes credit cards, but then is out of order. And then the other one that is on this app and then the next street overs on it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That's when you just park and you kind of roll the dice.

[A]

Yeah, it's more, it's more efficient with your time to just pay your ticket.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, how long am I gonna take the park? It's so. It's so frustrating. They. In our parking lot, they did. It's cameras and AI now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it's a pain in the ass. And it's like, why is how you police this lot my problem? And because we're paying. We're not paying on usage, we're paying monthly.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's like, I should just be able to park in these spaces. That's not my fucking problem. Like that. You don't want to employ a parking lot attendant. Like you're getting paid to manage the parking lot, but then you just set up this camera system and make it everybody else's responsibility.

[B]

Yeah. You can't give me a flat rate structure with a variable penalty.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Like, hold on here. But then you know how it is. There's only so many things you can stand up for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I played my card yesterday. Our parking lot again, big parking lot, just parking lot drama around here just. It was paved using like playground sand. It just sucks. It wasn't properly paved ever. It was just chip sealed over an aggregate base. So it's complete trash. So every few months I have to complain because the craters are giant. I'm in an F250. It's problematic. Some of our people don't have F250s. You drive over a crater in your Prius, it's a problem. So I have to say, hey, you've. You've got it. Like, are you going to do anything about it? And then they have some asphalt contractor come out and throw some patch in every hole. Three months later, holes are all there. So yesterday I'm like, I'm going to be.

[B]

This is personal for you. Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to be big time businessman here and I'm going to throw my weight around and say, when are you guys going to. Actually, we're just going around this merry go round. Yeah, they're paving the parking lot for you. We'll see if they're actually paving it. I don't believe them. But yes, I'm making a difference in the world.

[B]

I got a parking lot one pothole at a time.

[A]

Well, there was World of Asphalt here earlier this year and that was my joke all week, was just taking pictures of the giant potholes all around town saying, world of Asphalt. This is not town for that.

[B]

It's funny talking to people out of the industry and they're like, oh, what are you doing? Well, you know, I'm going to World of Concrete. They're like, there's a world of concrete. I'm like, yeah, yeah. There's also a world of asphalt.

[A]

There's a conference for everything. So there's a conference for ev. Every little niche out there, there's a conference for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you guys go to World of Concrete, too?

[B]

We have. We go to World. We're going to World of Asphalt this year.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And we're going to go to, obviously, Con Expo.

[A]

Where's World of Asphalt?

[B]

Not sure where it is. Right. Next year.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know where it is either. It's a pretty good show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Con Expo is probably 20, 26. Yeah. It'll always be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's the only place they.

[B]

Could ever handle the cranes.

[A]

Yeah. Handle the cranes. But all the people. I mean, it's like last Con Expo, it was crazy because I needed a hotel room. They're like, sorry, the Strip's sold out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The fuck do you mean, the Strip is sold out? But you. And you look at these hotels, you're like, how could this ever be full? Because there are so many hotel rooms. But the place was sold out because they also had. I feel like it was some college basketball tournament happening because it was March, so it might have been.

[B]

It's always in March.

[A]

March Madness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was overlapping things, and the entire Strip was sold out. So do you guys do anything with Trimble Dimensions?

[B]

We do. We go to dimensions.

[A]

You'll go to dimensions this year?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Good, good, good, good.

[B]

Let's end Dirt World. We'll be there. Nice.

[A]

Yeah. I'm excited. Based on how many other events you all go to, I'm excited to hear the feedback with what you think.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Or what your team thinks about it.

[B]

Yeah. Our customers love it.

[A]

You should have all.

[B]

They're like, you guys have to be at Dirt World. All right. You say so.

[A]

Yeah, we're trying. But like, anything.

[B]

No, it's a testament to you guys that a great job with that.

[A]

It just. Our team did a great job. I'm just the asshole that shows up and shakes hands, kiss babies. But I.

[B]

Frozen potholes.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But I even. That takes time to build a new event. Like, it just.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Anything in this world just takes time. And it's.

[B]

So you said it's probably one of the first new construction events. And 50 years.

[A]

I can't. I can't think of Another new one. I mean you'll have like a spin off from AGC of this or that, but that's not. I don't think that's new. That's like a. They kind of run the same play but different topics, so on and so forth. But yeah, I can't think of another truly new from scratch. And we're not an association which is.

[B]

Also a non association event. Is very new.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Because you have the. I mean you have the other stuff like the beavers and that kind of stuff.

[B]

That. Which I think is great. Yeah, we've been part of the beavers for a while and been super helpful for our business.

[A]

Yeah, well I, and someone asked me there didn't like oh, do you go to the beavers? My dude, I wouldn't even be. I wouldn't even get an invite to take the trash out at the beavers. Oh there's. There's no fucking way. But it looks, it looks pretty fancy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. If I can get in the beavers there. And I think, yeah, a lot of great contractors there. Yeah.

[A]

It's mostly west coast, isn't it?

[B]

Majority. But it is, it is across the country now.

[A]

Is it really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean you have the malls on more east coast and beavers west coast. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But no, I think they're good, they're good associations. Yeah.

[A]

Both are quite clever though. It's like yeah. Moles and beaver.

[B]

Yeah. Tunnels and dams. I guess put my thinking cap on.

[A]

I like stuff like that though. It's like a six year old came up of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I appreciate the history is cool.

[B]

I mean you think about the contractors and what they built between the Hoover Dam and all these things, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a lot of cool history in both those associations, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Well that like that book's one. I was talking to Tristan about this yesterday. I've been getting into these older construction books. It's on Kiewit.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

Just about the old stuff they did. Like one of the project is how they built all of the like Titan missile silos in the Midwest for example. They had a contract for like 300 missile silos in like nine months. And so they basically built this assembly line. So you'd have one crew come in and dig the big hole. One crew would do the drilled shaft, one crew did the concrete base, one crew did the walls. Top grade it. And then you just go from site to site to site nonstop and it's.

[B]

Like, wow, this is a crazy project.

[A]

So crazy. But. But just like learning even. There's a book on Bechtel and the Hoover Dam that's just, just mind blowing.

[B]

There's a couple on Bechtel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And their success.

[A]

They've done some crazy stuff, but just. Yeah, they built the whole Middle East. It's just the learning about it though. And like I was reading the Goodfellow book and back in the day they would survey a lot of stuff on horseback just because that was the most efficient way to get into the back country where you're going to go build a road, but there isn't a road yet. So you just do everything on horseback. It's like, wow. Yeah, that's exactly what you would do.

[B]

Yeah. It's almost like history through construction. Because you think about what were these catalysts at certain points in time, whether that's moving out west or World War II or building up shipyards. And what were these points that these projects came up, whether that's missile silo or a new Navy base that then just kind of created this new ecosystem for these contractors to just boom. Well, and also not taken away from their success, but also what is the market catalyst, Whether that's, hey, we're going to remove porta bodies in Canada now there's this giant macroeconomic thing going on and that's the creativity contractors. Who's responding to that? Who's understanding what's moving? I hear a lot like people like even at these conferences, oh, what do you think the macro market is for construction? And my response is usually like construction is about the micro markets. You know, like the macro isn't going to affect it too much. But do you have your pulse on your submarket and how does that submarket scale and where's that next pocket that you're going to?

[A]

I know like some of the fastest growth I've seen is these contractors just following data centers.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just going to say that. Yeah. But now does that work get commoditized? Right. Like that's probably one wave of like we have all this data center work and enough people come in that space and now your margins are coming down. What's the next thing? You know?

[A]

But I don't think it has been yet because one, it is. Then there's the qualifications based stuff because now you have the qualifications, everybody can bid it. And then two, these projects are so.

[B]

Giant and they're fast.

[A]

And they're fast. Yeah, they're just. But the scale of them is just. And because they're fast, the scale is bigger because it's like you're just condensing your schedule so you're doing more and.

[B]

Less time and you know, big tech's looking where they put a data set. So they're going to put a data center and like, you know, they're looking on Google Maps on we should build a data center here to throw them off.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, that much cash flow moving into it.

[A]

But then the whole data center thing, I actually am really interested in watching it long term because it's, they've built so many data centers and these, these data centers are so hungry in water and power that they're starting to be restricted in where they can put them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they're starting to put them in odd places because it's like, I feel like it was maybe Virginia or some, some state out in the east coast and I think this has happened in multiple states has just said we don't have the power for any more data centers. So wow, we can't, we can't do it anymore. Yeah, they're just like, they're starting to exceed because that, and this is what I, I, I love, I love the irony that is all of these tech giants say the biggest threat to our humanity is climate change. But then we're also going to go build more power hungry, we're going to go consume more, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to grow power consumption faster than ever in human history with data centers.

[B]

That's funny. I was at a, and with the Climate changer, I was listening to someone from AGC who did a great talk and he was talking about the different generational fears and he threw some stat out and backed up by a lot of different surveys that like 47% of Gen Zers may think they may not make it to a certain age because of climate change. Because of climate change. So they're operating like they're going to kick the bucket by 50 if we don't solve this problem.

[A]

Yeah, well that's how they make it sound.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, if I take a step back and if I grew up and you know every movie said the world's gonna end by 2030 and I'm X years old, I could think that way. I don't think that's true in any way. I think, you know, as a society we continue to figure things out. Yeah. But it is, you know, it is more apparent in how people are coming into the workforce. So if you don't have some thought on that, you may not recruit the Newest generation as much.

[A]

Which is true. But it also it. There's a lot of it that smells like bullshit and is bullshit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which to me is not attractive. And I'm not necessarily the target demographic because I think I'm more educated on how the world works.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think when I view what the true value chain of these different things are. I'm not saying go out and get electric cars or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just, I was just interested in. That's a fear factor.

[A]

Yeah. No, it is.

[B]

What impacts that fear factor could be complete bullshit. Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But is a reality. That's a fear factor.

[A]

I mean what these companies are saying and how these companies are in a way pandering to that fear to get that workforce.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen that a lot. But then also they have the pressure that is the financial institutions essentially forcing it upon them. Like you need a certain ESG score. Yeah. To even qualify for your financing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And by the way, you've got $7.4 billion in debt with us, so good luck not qualifying for that financing and finding another $7.4 billion tomorrow.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It just doesn't.

[B]

No, you make good points.

[A]

Yeah. They. But the best, the best piece I've read on it is it's a book called Fossil Future. And it's like an argument basically saying, hey, no matter how we do things, we're not going away from fossil fuel anytime soon. It's just a reality. Like, okay, cool, everything is electric vehicle.

[B]

You still go now you still got to mine lithium. Right.

[A]

You still have to double the whole power grid to do that. Yeah. You still have to produce all of that. So what are you doing about like shipping. What are you doing about cement production? That still requires. What are you doing about aircraft? There's all these other things that you don't think about. Everybody just thinks of fossil. What are you doing about the entire chemical industry and everything we use in our world that's from oil based products and gas based products. But his argument was okay, cool. Is climate changing. Yes, that's what happens. Do humans have something to do with that? Perhaps, but there's nobody that's actually proven that to be correct and true. We don't really know that. And it's not denying that it's changing. But his argument was it's not going to change overnight. And so we can just adapt to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Through infrastructure, through development. Like we've already done. Like we're, we're already farming areas nowadays that were so un. That couldn't have yielded anything, you know, back in the day because we've adapted the climate in a way.

[B]

Like I'm an optimist in our ability to adapt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean that's how we've gotten where we've gotten.

[A]

That's. And that's like his arguments like that's how we've built our entire society. So we're just going to keep doing that and it's like, yes, I see that to be true.

[B]

Yeah. What do you think about nuclear? Like I know there's this trial reactor going back to doing the Bill Gates reactor.

[A]

Yeah. But which, yeah. Talk to, talk to Bechtel about plant, Plant Vogel and how, how well that, how, how that's gone and that's not necessarily their fault. It's just government, like within the current government regulatory world. It's not, it's just not, it's not feasible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just not cost effective. Like if you look, I mean that plant in South Carolina, I think it is.

[B]

They have one in Wyoming now. It's like a new type of reactor which is more graphic. They're trying versus computer.

[A]

I just mean like yes, there's all of these potential innovations that I think are really exciting. But I think you also have to consider just where nuclear is and the latest and greatest nuclear power plant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so that cost overruns on it and the schedule like are sickening to look at.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then there's another one I think out there that they spent like. And I could be speaking on my ass right now. There was like $10 billion on this thing that's mothballed right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it just couldn't, it couldn't. They just couldn't get it there somehow. It's like how do you spend $10 billion on a power plant that is then just. Or maybe they're starting it back up. I don't know. Something. There's been a lot of drama with these nuclear power plants.

[B]

Yeah. I was reading a book on long term debt crises and it was just posing the question of if you had a $3 billion subway project and the US is still the reserve currency. Right.

[A]

And when a car still being the key word there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It hangs on.

[B]

Yep. Then it went over 500 million. Would you still build the subway because of its impact for, you know, for society and infrastructure.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's interesting like looking at from that macro perspective and what we're not controlling, like how does that equation play out with like nuclear or other different options. Like when do you make sure that the end result happens.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And what is that tolerance of cost over on like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Billions of dollars. Okay. But like how, how does that manage? Like from a more of a long term view versus well.

[A]

And who's, who's paying for it too? Like a lot of times power companies typically are private, which I didn't even really understand until recently. It's like.

[B]

Or they're private public partnerships.

[A]

They're private public partnerships. But like they're. The consumer pays for it ultimately. Yeah.

[B]

There's not a lot of concession agreements going on. Power.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

It's not like a toll road.

[A]

Somebody has to pay for it at some point and it's usually the consumer in the United States and that's where. But it's worked out for. I mean it's worked out for France.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you can see Germany as like the cautionary tale that is woof. They put all their eggs into this different basket that has not panned out for them and now they're deindustrializing as a result.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yikes. And I always think, I always think gas is going to be a significant component of the power grid in the United States for a very long time.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

It's been great like how much gas we have and how many power plants are now combined cycle and gas turbine. That's, that's been the biggest advancement in the U.S. power grid in decades. It's not been wind, it's not been solar, it's been transitioning from coal to gas turbine.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. And yeah, I'm not biased either way. I just like hearing what's going on. No, I, in a non biased manner.

[A]

I'm just, I'm just pro power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just pro infrastructure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I just think we need it all. I think we need wind, we need solar, we need gas, we need coal, we need nuclear, we need it all. And I think somebody that just says, oh, nuclear is the answer. They don't really understand how the power grid works. They don't understand how the world works.

[B]

As we were saying earlier, it's not binary.

[A]

Yes, that's a very fun thing to say that I agree with. But I think it's so nuanced and so complex that we don't live in a world that can just, let's just.

[B]

Go build new technology capability versus the actual implementation of it. And that gray matter in between is actually where the answer is, you know, if you can get both to work.

[A]

Yeah. But, and honestly I'm, I'm not very pro Bill Gates over the past few years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So hearing that, oh, Bill Gates is going to be the answer to our power problems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes me more uneasy than anything. I'm like, I don't know, man, he's been caught in some shady shit.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Sure.

[A]

Explain that one, man. I'm not even going to talk about specifics there, but shady stuff.

[B]

And from my point of view, I'm just looking, like I said earlier, who's doing research on.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And let's hear it. I give a shit about your personal.

[A]

Life and there's conversation. I'm not very in touch with this world. I'm still on the outside and I'm talking shit. But there's arguments that are we've intentionally not innovated on the nuclear front for some reasons. And there's also the like. I also heard a guy talking about how we started to license nuclear technology to a place like India and then all of a sudden they get nuclear weapons a few years later.

[B]

So it's like I'm going to say I'm equally out of touch on all.

[A]

Wait a minute. And so he was explaining that's why it's set back like a global nuclear program, because you can take the technology and do other things with it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Which is not in potentially the world's best interest. It's so fascinating.

[B]

Sure. But you can make that argument for any technology or you can say social media. Well, is just, you know.

[A]

Yes, social media can't eradicate the human race.

[B]

True.

[A]

In 15 minutes.

[B]

Absolutely. I agree with you. But is it like directly coordinated to, like, you know, an issue of mental illness, especially with, you know, females?

[A]

100%.

[B]

100% proven there. So, like, there's dangers in every tool, but is that danger much worse with a bunch of nuclear explosions?

[A]

If you were to ask me what. What the greatest risk to humanity is, I would very quickly say nuclear war.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And anybody that doesn't say that is not adequately educated because once you start to educate yourself on it, you almost don't because it's so terrifying. And what we're engaged in currently with another very capable nuclear power is just like, what is going on here? But then I remember I'm just some asshole in middle Tennessee taking pictures of tractors trying to make the dirt world a better place.

[B]

I don't know how we got from porta Potties to end of the world.

[A]

But, yeah, you know, enjoyed it. You know. Yeah. Sometimes I don't sleep very well because I go too far in the detail, but I'M to salvage this. I really, really, especially with our own software journey. Very appreciative of what you guys are doing.

[B]

No thanks.

[A]

Very excited for what you're doing. It's sorely needed in the world and it's cool to be a part. People say this to me too with what we're doing to just follow along and to see the iterative process and to see where you guys are now. Yeah.

[B]

And likewise to see your guys growth and just have a good peer in the industry to talk about these things and have a medium to talk about them I think is needed and it's beneficial and it's also a lot of fun. So no appreciate, always appreciate the time with you.

[A]

Is it just Tenna. Com, the website?

[B]

Yes, just Tenna.

[A]

Com. Too easy.

[B]

All right. Yeah, two ends.

[A]

Well, thanks for stopping by.

[B]

All right, thanks, Aaron.