Thiess Live at MINExpo w/ Michael Wright — DT 288

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt – Episode DT 288: Thiess Live at MINExpo with Michael Wright

Release Date: November 14, 2024

In Episode DT 288 of Dirt Talk by BuildWitt, host Aaron engages in an in-depth conversation with Michael Wright from Thiess, a stalwart in the mining and construction industry. The episode, recorded live at MINExpo, delves into Thiess's rich history, global expansion, technological advancements, corporate culture, and the future of mining.

---

1. History and Growth of Thiess

Michael Wright opens the discussion by tracing Thiess’s origins, highlighting its humble beginnings and evolution over the decades.

Michael Wright (B): "We started 90 years ago in the Darling Downs sort of west of Brisbane in Queensland with five brothers, the Thiess brothers, coming out of a farming community off the Depression and trying to make a dollar." [01:21]

Thiess initially focused on transitioning farming equipment to construction, tackling basic road projects. Over time, the company expanded its reach through innovation, increasing project sizes, and diversifying its client base. The foray into mining began in 1944, responding to the energy crisis in New South Wales, particularly in coal mining.

2. Global Expansion and Market Presence

Michael details Thiess’s strategic expansion beyond Australia, emphasizing key milestones and partnerships that facilitated their international footprint.

B: "We've been in nine countries around the world and it's truly exciting business." [02:39]

Thiess first ventured into Indonesia in the 1980s through a joint venture with Petriýsi, now a competitor. This move laid the groundwork for long-term partnerships, allowing Thiess to re-enter Indonesia over three decades later. In 2007, they expanded into Mongolia, securing significant contracts like the UHG Mining project at the Tavern Torgoy Metallurgical coal deposit.

Further expansions include:

• Chile (since 2000): Working predominantly with Anifagaster Minerals.
• Cambodia: Acquired Maca a year and a half prior to the episode, enhancing operations in gold mining.
• North America: Established an office in Salt Lake City three years ago, with ongoing projects in Colorado and a recent initiation of operations in Sudbury, Canada, in partnership with local First Nations companies and Vale.

3. Service Offerings and Differentiation

Thiess stands out in the mining industry by offering comprehensive services that span the entire lifecycle of a mining operation.

B: "We can help plan the mine, operate the mine, and then help close the mine." [08:03]

Their services include mine planning, resource development, asset management, and reclamation. By handling everything from opening a mine to its eventual closure, Thiess provides a seamless and integrated experience for clients, allowing them to focus on exploration, development, and marketing of commodities.

4. Asset Management and Technological Innovations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Thiess’s robust asset management capabilities and their embrace of cutting-edge technology.

B: "We've got more than 2000 bits of big mining gear, more than 1200 mining trucks... we've got component centers in Balikpapan in Indonesia, in Perth, in Brisbane." [10:45]

Thiess has invested heavily in maintaining and upgrading their vast array of equipment. They have established rebuild facilities in Indonesia and Chile, with plans to expand to the Americas. This infrastructure not only supports their operations but also offers potential services to clients.

On technology, Michael emphasizes the transformative impact of data and automation in mining:

B: "The amount of data that we get off our equipment these days is phenomenal... autonomy is a big leap forward." [22:26]

Thiess operates a remote operating center in Indonesia, processing millions of data points to optimize real-time decision-making. They have also pioneered autonomous operations, including autonomous drills and dozers, enhancing productivity and safety.

5. Corporate Culture and Workforce Management

Thiess places a strong emphasis on safety, mental health, and fostering an inclusive and respectful workplace. Michael shares insights into their workforce strategies and cultural initiatives.

B: "Every employee survey we get, the number one thing that people come back to us and say we're doing exceptionally well is safety." [28:27]

Key initiatives include:

• Respectful Workplace Programs: Addressing issues like sexual harassment and bullying with zero-tolerance policies and comprehensive training.
• Diverse Workforce: Actively working to include more women, Indigenous peoples, and veterans in their workforce.
• Family-Friendly Rosters: Designing work schedules that accommodate family responsibilities, such as 9am to 1pm shifts to allow parents to balance work and home life.

Thiess also invests in training and development through the Thiess Institute, aiming to upskill their employees and foster leadership from within.

6. Future of Mining and Industry Insights

Looking ahead, Michael articulates Thiess’s vision for the mining industry, emphasizing sustainability, the energy transition, and the critical role of mining in global development.

B: "World needs mining and we need to get society back on track to understand how important mining is to the future energy transition." [17:29]

Key points include:

• Sustainability: Commitment to reducing the environmental impact of mining operations and promoting the decarbonization of the industry.
• Critical Minerals: Focusing on essential minerals and metals vital for technologies driving the energy transition, such as copper and gold.
• Community Engagement: Enhancing relationships with local communities and Indigenous groups to ensure respectful and beneficial partnerships.

7. Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the personal balance between career and family, underscoring the human element behind Thiess’s global operations.

B: "Trying to spend time, when you do get home with them, quality time, which is difficult." [44:27]

Michael acknowledges the challenges of managing a demanding career while maintaining family relationships but emphasizes the rewards and pride in contributing to a globally impactful industry.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Wright: "We can help plan the mine, operate the mine, and then help close the mine." [08:03]
• B: "The amount of data that we get off our equipment these days is phenomenal." [22:26]
• B: "We are a client business. Ultimately if we lose our clients, we lose our business." [31:32]
• B: "We're focused on safety foremost and really do take that seriously." [28:32]
• B: "World needs mining and we need to get society back on track to understand how important mining is to the future energy transition." [17:29]

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Thiess’s Legacy: From its agrarian roots, Thiess has grown into a global leader in mining and construction, prioritizing innovation and adaptability.
2. Comprehensive Services: Offering end-to-end solutions in mining operations, Thiess distinguishes itself by managing projects from inception to closure.
3. Technological Prowess: Embracing data analytics and autonomous technologies, Thiess enhances operational efficiency and safety.
4. Commitment to Culture: A strong focus on safety, diversity, and respectful workplaces fosters a positive and productive environment for employees.
5. Sustainable Future: Thiess is dedicated to playing a pivotal role in the energy transition, ensuring mining practices are sustainable and socially responsible.

This episode of Dirt Talk provides valuable insights into Thiess’s operations and the broader mining industry's trajectory, making it a must-listen for professionals and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[A]

As you know, Ariat is the official Dirt Talk podcast sponsor and at this point we've talked plenty about their footwear, their workwear. But now it is winter and boy, is it cold. It was 17 degrees this morning. I had to warm the truck up. But just because it's cold does not mean the work stops. So to get the job done, you need the best, warmest work wear possible. And Ariat has a long list of outerwear, amazing jackets, pants and other goods available now. You can shop at their website, ariat.com dirt talk that is ariat.com dirt talk welcome everyone. Mine Expo Tees podcast. I'm going to ignore all the people though, and just focus on you.

[B]

Please do.

[A]

For the purpose of this interview, to get into it this morning I told you just how interesting I find. Yeah. And you can move that a little closer. You can probably hear yourself how interesting I find the history of tees.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you go like you go to the website and there's an old picture of a tractor right on the homepage of the website. And if you really dig into the history of it, it's spectacular. Can you just touch on the history of the company and where the company started?

[B]

Yeah, look, teases. We started 90 years ago in the Darling down sort of west of Brisbane in Queensland and it was five brothers, the Tees brothers, which is what we originally called coming out of a farming community off the Depression and trying to make a dollar really about taking their farming equipment to construction. And that's where it all started. So it's doing basic roads and I guess over time escalated into more and more through innovation, increased the project sizes, the client base. We got into Mining in 1944 off the back of energy crisis New South Wales. So that was in coal mining and opened up the coal mining there. We started mining in Queensland in 1960s and again opened up the Bowen Basin with our partners there, Mitsui and Peabody at the time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I've had a really long history, a lot of innovation in construction, mining and industrial services. And I guess now we're in nine countries around the world and it's truly exciting business.

[A]

It's pretty wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where. What were you doing when you started with Teese?

[B]

So I started 26 years ago as a project manager in not the mining part of Tees, but a different part of Teese. And I guess my first project was a job at Cockatoo island, which is in the middle of Sydney Harbour, remediating a contaminated site. So it was an old shipbuilding site, so cleaning that up, making it safe. And it's now a festival event. People have rock concerts there.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Second job was at Maralinga, cleaning up in the middle of South Australia, cleaning up the nuclear test site there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that was sort of legacy of the 50s and 60s where the Brits let a lot of nuclear bombs off and a lot of testing. And so you can imagine the contamination out there in the middle of the desert.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then came back to Sydney and Teese won the contract to clean up the area around Homebush Bay where the Olympics were held. So we all again a contaminated site, hazardous waste landfill and so we cleaned all that up. So yeah, that was my first sort of few jobs in Teese.

[A]

When did Teese go outside of Australia and to other markets?

[B]

I think firstly into Indonesia in the 80s. We had a joint venture with a company at the time called Petrissy who are now a competitor of ours. So we went there first and I guess then did a couple of contracts with them, sort of exited Indonesia and then went back there about 36 years ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So we've been there ever since in fact just came down the stairs from an Indonesian client that we've worked with for over 20 years.

[A]

So which other markets are you in? I know Mongolia, Chile.

[B]

Yeah. So Mongolia is a great story. I was actually general manager of China Mongolia in 20067 and we opened up Mongolia then put an office in there. In 2007 we won the UHG mining contract which is a part of the Tavern Torgoy Metallurgical coal deposit. Yeah, we've been there ever since and we're still working for them today. And now we've gone underground with at Ayutulgoi with Rio Tinto. We did twin declines there, six and a half kilometer declines in 2016. Really tough geological conditions. But team did really well all drill and blast tunneling. And now we're doing a lot of the fit out civil works and doing, starting now, the underground mining as well up there. We've been in Chile since 2000 working predominantly for anifagaster minerals, but other clients there as well. I think Cambodia went into Cambodia through maca, who we acquired a year and a half ago. They did a magnificent job in a gold mine in Cambodia mobilising through Covid and really bringing state of the art sort of mining practices to Cambodia and lifting standards and setting a new standard in production and safety critically and how you deal with community. I guess North America is a bit more recent for us certainly we put an office in Salt Lake City about two and a half, three years ago, won our first contract in Colorado. We're still working there. And about two weeks ago we set off our first blast at Sudbury in Canada. So working in partnership with local first nations companies with the Union, who are very strong up there and with Vale. And we're really looking forward to sort of taking that to fruition and opening up or reopening up that mining jurisdictions in North America.

[A]

Contract mining isn't nearly as common as Australia, I guess. Why higher? Why is it economically advantageous? Because they do it plenty in Australia. So it must make sense.

[B]

It allows the mining clients to focus on the exploration, the development and I guess on obviously the marketing of the commodity as well and the resource development. So we've some examples where we've opened the mine, perhaps a non mining client, so more a financial client. We focused on building the mine, helping them get it out of the ground as cost effectively as we can, trying to get it out of the ground cheaply to optimise cash flows for the client. We bring the equipment, we've got global agreements with most of the major equipment OEMs, which is important, we bring the labour force. So all of that sort of challenge is taken away and we end up delivering, whether it's coal or metal on the ground at a particular specification. So I guess we've got really strong mine planning capability, so resource development, optimizing sort of resource models and really strong asset management capability and I guess taking it all the way through to reclamation as well or rehabilitation and mine closure.

[A]

Yeah, you're. And it's really from. You can do from A to Z, which is I think pretty extraordinary. So it's not. When you hear mine contracting, it might just be, you know, throwing dirt in a truck, which there's, there's a lot of that. Throwing a lot of dirt in a lot of trucks.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

But you can, you can, from what you're saying, you can help plan the mine, you can help operate the mine and then you can help close the mine.

[B]

Correct? That's exactly right.

[A]

Which is pretty extraordinary.

[B]

Yeah, we've got a great capability and trying to expand that globally obviously and for clients. Yeah.

[A]

Why when you started at tees, it was probably substantially smaller.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Why? What's enabled TEAS to grow like you've grown over the past few decades?

[B]

I guess we had a structural moment with a change in shareholder in about 2014. We were a diversified contractor. Probably more than 50% of the business was construction. So a Lot of the big infrastructure in Australia overseas was built by TIS desalination plants and tunnels and the like. Mining we did predominantly in Australia and. Or only in Australia and Indonesia at the time. And then we had a big industrial services division. I guess changing shareholder tees became the mining company for the group. So we inherited all of the group's mining contracts globally, which gave us a stronger footprint. So we got Mongolia back from what was then Latin Asia and I guess since then have just expanded our mining horizons across the planet and tried to bring capability, upskill local workforce and sort of different thinking to mining globally.

[A]

What, there's other mine contractors out there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why, what's the value add for hiring ATIs?

[B]

So it depends on scope of work, I guess. Yeah. So differentiation is critical, otherwise you're competing on price.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And in some markets we can compete on price and do compete on price. And obviously that's. It's always certainly. And I guess through our asset management, the way we approach our assets and optimise outcomes for them, the training we bring to our people from a safety production perspective, so guaranteeing that safe production and our mine planning and again, trying to look at mine planning and resource development through a cost lens, bringing all that together, I guess puts us in a competitive space and should deliver an optimum outcome for the client. So it's having a really strong technical capability as well as strong execution.

[A]

So you're less hired gun and more so a partner in the process.

[B]

Absolutely, yeah.

[A]

When it comes to asset management, how do you all approach that? Because I know you have a lot of assets.

[B]

Yeah, we do have a lot of assets. And you've seen some of them?

[A]

I have, yeah. They're expensive assets.

[B]

Yeah. So we've got more than 2000 bits of big mining gear, more than 1200 mining trucks, sort of 100 ton and above globally. So everything from sort of 360 ton down to 100 tonnes of smaller stuff. We do run some Arctics as well in gold, but not so many. And then excavators. We've got strong relationships with all the OEMs, but we've. The first, I think it was the first and third 9800 in the world came to us to sort of prove up and work through first. First couple 996s in the early days. And again, I guess we bring a lot of expertise in how to both operate and maintain the assets. So the OEMs learn a lot, put that expertise back into the next sort of phase of equipment. And so a lot of the things you see, improvements you see on the mining trucks, on the excavators, come from sort of impact of what t springs in asset management. But I guess it's, you know, always challenging sort of component lives, pushing those out, but trying to run the equipment as hard as you can without it breaking, obviously. Sure, yeah.

[A]

But you'll. And you all rebuild a lot of equipment and have, I mean, as much equipment asset capability as anybody else I've seen. I mean, you can rebuild entire trucks, it seems like.

[B]

Yeah, we've just. I mean, we've been rebuilding trucks years and equipment. We've got component centres in Balikpapin in Indonesia, in Perth, in Brisbane. And we're looking at how we bring component rebuilds to the Americas as well, where we're working. We put a rebuild facility, a truck rebuild facility in place in Bataan island in Indonesia about 18 months ago. And we've had our first 7, 8 first 789s running through there. So we took them out of Australia, barged them up to Indonesia, rebuilt them, bringing them back now as fully rebuilt new trucks. So, yeah, we've got that capability. We are. We've set up a centre, a technology and rebuild centre, which we're just sort of in the process of ramping up in Chile as well. So combining the Teas Institute, which is about training and upskilling people, and rebuild capability to bring it again, I guess initially for our own use, but also potentially offering that as a service to clients moving forward.

[A]

I was. I was hoping to see the Chile facility, but that day I was there, the power was out for the town.

[B]

Oh, is that right?

[A]

So they were like, yeah, don't bother coming by.

[B]

Fair enough. I was there a couple of months ago. It's fantastic facility.

[A]

I've heard it's fantastic. Yeah. All of Chili's, the mining there is unbelievable. I thought it was going to be, I don't know. I'm an American, so I've, you know, American size, ego. You think everything's best in class here. So you go to somewhere like Chile, you're like, yeah, it's probably not as good as what we do. Yeah, you go there and it's actually like way better than what we do. It's. It's spectacular. And Australia thinks the same way. How do you approach a different market, though? Because Tees is really good in Australia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're a household name in the mining industry in Australia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in North America, not. No one has. Yeah, no one. No one really knows who you guys are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how do you, how do you approach that? How do you get the word out? How do you educate people?

[B]

Yeah, we probably something we can do better. We don't market ourselves particularly well and I guess this event here is an opportunity to. Here we are. So hopefully you'll know a lot more about us now. But yeah, look, I mean we, you know, we went into Chile, we bought a small, we bought a fleet of equipment and a contract and started in Chile, for example. It's taken us some time to understand the culture there and it really is a different culture. What motivates people, how you get them to perform, how you get the standards to what you need to operate for us to be successful. I mean we make our money not on the commodity price but on the service we provide. And so if we're inefficient, we're not making any money and that's not a great outcome. And we put a lot of money into equipment so we really do need those returns which are important. In North America. We sort of set up here looking at different strategies to grow here. First was our traditional contract mining, but as you say, it's not a model that people are familiar with in this country. Having said that, you know, the operation in Colorado has been successful to date. We've sort of lifted standards with their own fleet of equipment working alongside the client's fleet. And so it's been a real partnership there. And in Sudbury where we've just started, again that is a contract mining, but again it's in partnership with first nations, with the Union and really bringing sort of capability and expertise to a region to open it back up and sort of injecting that expertise in. So we've sort of launched the TEAS Institute as a way of trying to raise the bar and train people for firstly again our business, but then hopefully for the broader markets that's happening in North America in the near future, we've committed to that and so we will put that in place and train folk both in operations and on the trades and again for our operations initially, but I Guess We've got 5000 people in Indonesia. We've run apprenticeship programs there for 20 years and trained more than 1500 diesel fitters. Two Australian standards and we brought 30 of them to Chile for a three month stint just to help get over a peak load. Really well received by both the Chileans and our Indonesian team. And the collaboration was just beautiful to watch, you know, it really was. We've now started bringing Indonesian fitters to Australia, again trained to our standards already They've got our safety culture so they know what good looks like and it's been really effective. So I think again, trying to bring some of that global expertise that we've got technical capability, whether it's in asset management or mine planning or mine engineering or resource modeling or even just operational execution and bring that. And I guess the lessons we learned from all of our different clients that we work for and the different minds and cultures that we work within, trying to bottle that all up and bring the best of breed to, to our mining globally is what we're trying to do.

[A]

Yeah, the culture side of things is something I've started to understand over the past few years too. It can be the exact same thing, same equipment, same commodity, same material, everything can be the same, but the culture is different and it just doesn't, it just doesn't operate the same. And so just even understanding how the culture works, it just takes time to build relationships and to really understand it. What's, what's the desire? Like why push into North America? Why is that an important market for you all going forward?

[B]

World needs mining and I guess the world needs mining done exceptionally well and we really need to get society back on track to understand how important mining is to the future energy transition. I guess we see a significant opportunity, particularly in critical minerals and metals to make that difference in North America and sort of help bring I guess, mining on a sustainability journey, be more efficient, you know, help develop new prospects as they come up. Yeah, the numbers of new mines, both open cut and underground are significant that the world needs for the energy transition and we want to be a part of that. Some of that will happen in Australia, but not all of it.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. And it's amazing we were talking this morning too, the difference between Australia and the United States when it comes to I think how mining is perceived because I think mining is just so much more common in Australia. Everybody has a family member or most people have or know somebody within the mining industry because it's such a significant part of the economy. Whereas in the United States, if I were to go poll people on Las Vegas Boulevard, not that that's the best sample, probably not. But if I were to poll them what they think of mining in the America, they'd be confused because they probably don't even know there's mining in America. And so even that difference I think is significant when it comes to recruiting. But I know it's still a big issue in Australia even with how well known it is.

[B]

Yeah, I guess it's that license to operate that we need to get back. You've got younger generations coming through who really don't want to be associated with mining. We've got very few mining engineers coming through in Australia anymore. Most universities have shut their mining courses off. And again we're looking at, Thiece is looking at a partnership where we bring civil and mechanical engineers through and then give them another year on top of that to make them in all mining engineers. So we're looking, we're trying to be more creative and encourage people back into mining. But I think we need to present ourselves as part of the future, not as a part of the past. And it does involve mining coal certainly still forever and a day. I mean the world still needs energy, still needs metallurgical coal for steelmaking certainly. And you've got, I mean obviously strong deposits of both in the US but it also needs the critical minerals, the coppers, you know, gold, we're strong in gold. I mean that's, you know, from an inflationary perspective and safe haven for people's money. Gold's such a critical part of the economy.

[A]

It's just important to the future in general. Like if you, if you believe humanity is going to continue, mining is going to continue. Like it's, it's, it's, it's odd to me why it becomes this argument. It's like no, no, it doesn't even have to be an argument. Like I honestly, the power can come from anywhere and we still need mining. Like that doesn't, that has no effect on it. Or even the Lake Vermont video we published, you know, you get all the people on there, oh, we don't need coal anymore, so on and so forth. And I explained the video. It's steel making coal, it's a different commodity, this is, this is different. But it's just, it has such a negative connotation to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the mining industry has a lot more work to do when it comes to unwinding that because it is, it's deep.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And particularly even when you think 10% of our GDP comes from mining, you know, which is incredible, but yet negative sentiment in society towards the industry is quite strong. So, and again, partly self, self to blame as an industry, but there's a lot of great work we do with communities putting training back into people, lifting indigenous populations out of poverty. There's a lot of partnerships that happen certainly with teas around the world. It really does make a difference to community and to people's lives and that makes you feel Good turning up for work every day. But again, we don't sell that message as well as we should.

[A]

And that's, I think that's what's interesting too about mining is because it's not viewed in this very positive way, you have to go way beyond most companies, go to operate and to just do your job. I mean, to start a mine, a greenfield operation, the lengths you have to go through to support the community, to develop infrastructure, to recruit people, it's so far beyond most industries and it makes a dramatic difference in these areas. But the other challenges, all it takes is one, one thing to go wrong and it somehow in a way erases all that good. But no, that good is still there and it's, it's quite extraordinary what it does for communities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, how since you started, you said 26 years ago at Tees, how has technology changed the way you all approach mining? Because it's still moving dirt, it's still putting dirt and rocks in trucks, but it's a lot different.

[B]

So I think the amount of data that we get off our equipment these days is phenomenal. And the challenge is trying to distill the data that actually makes a difference and try to get those to the people that can make decisions in real time. Again, that drives operational performance, better safety outcomes, you know, reduce fuel burn, reduce component or increase component lives and increase production, obviously. And so you've got a whole, I mean, literally millions of data points to sort of work through every hour, coming off equipment around the world and how you disseminate that so that people can make the best decisions they can in real time, to improve your operations and make them safe is critical. We've got a remote operating centre set up in Indonesia where we. All the data comes from three of our minds there comes back into the remote operating centre and those people, it's a 24,7 operating centre. So it's great because you get access to a different workforce. Suddenly it's in Jakarta, they love working there, they can go home to families, a lot of women in that workforce. Whereas out on site in the middle of Kalimantan, less so. So you get access to a different workforce with a different skill set who can then really interact with our site people in real time so that give them the sort of advice, decision making tools that they need to make decisions and keep improving. I think autonomy is a big leap forward. Well, we've been involved with autonomy since 2012 in West Australia. We've got a couple of sites, three sites now running with autonomous drills. We've sort of led the semi autonomous dozer trials and they're now in full production at Lake Vermont, which you would have seen, which is a great step forward. So that's sort of taking the people out of the cabs and having a couple of operators just operating by exception on push DOE on bulk doors. So that's been worked really well. We're looking at bringing that into reclamation work as well and then through to full autonomy, where we're currently working with our client and Caterpillar to get a mine out of the ground at Olive Downs. And again, it's not without its challenges, but we'll get there through sort of collaboration and cooperation.

[A]

What's the advantage of autonomy? Why deploy that kind of technology? Yeah, I think it's very misunderstood.

[B]

It is. Most people jump straight to the labor and the labor cost. It's not that at all. It's the fact that you get your trucks running at 7200, 7300 hours a year and they stop for fueling and maintenance and not much else. And so that's where the real advantage gets. So it's that truck productivity and therefore lower cost that drives autonomy. Now getting it right in line with your mine plan, drilling blast sequences, all of that is challenging. And certainly a lot of focus on how the resources set up, how the mind's set up to optimise autonomy. But that's the holy grail really. It's about productivity.

[A]

And people are, I think a lot of people, and I get a lot of comments on the Internet, they're very jaded towards big companies because they think it's all about just milking people for money. But I think they missed the point. That is, if you make your operations more efficient, you make more money, you better support the customer, you make more money, which then gives you more to invest in the operation to make it better for everybody.

[B]

Yeah, that's the ideal cycle.

[A]

That's the ideal cycle and that's the, I think, more common cycle. And so that's what they glaze over too. It's like, oh, this is just another company trying to reduce labor to make more money. It's like, no, no, no, it's not.

[B]

About that at all.

[A]

No, they're trying to make the overall operation more efficient so they can hire more people and do more work and support the community even more.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's right. I mean, anything about the workforce you need, it's actually a higher level workforce you need. So we need to put a lot more training in our people. I mean, you think about, you know, look at the trucks of 20 years ago versus the trucks and diggers of today. The level and quality of your tradespeople is significantly greater. The autonomy technicians you need now to run the more, the higher level mines, the data technicians you need to run your mines as well these days. So I think it's changing and upskilling the people involved in mining over time. You're still going to need lots of people and always will. And I think that's the opportunity and we're still. And autonomy is not for every mine at all. In fact, it's probably for very few. You're still going to need a significant amount of people operating the equipment. You've still got sort of water trucks going around. You've still got all your ancills running your excavators, your diggers, you know, on, on your mine sites. Still got all your drill and blast people, mine planning people. So environmental folk. So there's still a lot of people on a mine site, even with autonomy.

[A]

Well, and it's interesting, I always ask people on these autonomous operations, how do you feel about this? You know, just anybody I, anybody I talk to, I've. I don't think I've ever heard one bad thing about it from the people that work with it. Yeah, yeah. It has its wrinkles. It's technology, so it's. Sure it doesn't always work and they've expressed those frustrations, but everybody is remarkably positive about it. And it's interesting too. When I was in wa, they said, yeah, even for new people coming into the industry, you used to have to put in years in a truck before you had any opportunity in a digger, a dozer, whatever it was, blade. And now you get a job and you can have an opportunity to get trained up on one of those other pieces of equipment without having to drive the truck. Because they're autonomous.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh yeah. I hadn't even thought of that. That's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why, why should someone come to work for T? What do you offer the people working for the company? Because how many people are at the company?

[B]

We got 15,000. 15,000 around the world.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. So big company certainly, but pretty big.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And again, we sort of try. We came from family roots and we try to instil the family values. I think as people come through the door, it's trying to make sure that we used to call it injecting them with blue blood as they came through the door so they understand our culture, what we want. I mean, we're A performance driven company. I guess what we offer, we're focused on safety foremost and really do take that seriously. And every employee survey we get, the number one thing that people come back to us and say we're doing exceptionally well is safety. It doesn't mean we don't have accidents, because we do, but we try and learn from those and try and put critical risk controls in place and measures in place in technology and training and leadership to really make a difference, to make sure that doesn't happen. I guess from a safety perspective, that's now morphing into mental health as well. So trying to look at the holistic person that comes to the mine site, how do we keep them safe? You know, trying to get more representation of society in our workforce so we can continue to grow and tap into a broader range of people to bring them into the industry and work for teas. But I guess, yeah, performance driven. We care about our people, we care about our clients. We don't always get that right, but we try and try and learn. When we don't get it right, I think we promote people pretty quickly through the organisation. If you go to one of the bigger mining companies, you might get pigeonholed as a graduate or a young person, whereas we sort of try and push people into, outside of their comfort zone, give them opportunities to excel, grow, train. And again, we don't always get it right, but we try. So I think, yeah, look, we try to develop our people, keep our people safe, make it a fun place to work. Absolutely. Performance driven how?

[A]

Being an organization that big, it has its benefits because you have the weight you can throw around as needed. But how do you prevent it from becoming a liability? Because it could, you know, you could not innovate as quickly.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Or you could not be as nimble. So how do you prevent that from happening?

[B]

Yeah, we're going through that at the moment, actually. Just sort of challenging. Post Covid, you know, post work from home. What does the future look like for our people off our sites? Because on our sites the people have always had to turn up, obviously, and they work remotely and they work on shift.

[A]

Yeah, mining didn't stop in 2010, didn't stop at all.

[B]

And again, I think we collectively did a great job to keep mining going through the pandemic. Certainly, I think reflecting where we are at the moment and we're going through it right now is sort of how do we deploy the best people and capability we've got globally, in real time and make those people available to our global business and keep agile and that's a critical thing. So governance is important. Yep. We want similar standards across the world, but we don't want those sort of standards to I guess, overpower leadership and disempower our leadership to make real time decisions for the betterment of their people and clients.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We're a client business. Ultimately if we lose our clients, we lose our business. So again, I think at times companies like ours can become a bit inward looking and again challenging that, making sure that we're client focused, we're delivering for our clients, delivering for our people and obviously shareholders part of that. But we got many stakeholders and we really need to be focused on them. All of them concurrently.

[A]

Yeah. And the interesting thing about your business is it's, it's similar to construction. You know, contract mining is similar at face value, but it's different at every operation. And so you can't be too rigid or else it just doesn't. No, that's doesn't apply. You have to tailor the approach for every single customer, every single operation, every single country, everywhere you are is different in a way.

[B]

Yeah, different but similar.

[A]

But different. But similar. Yeah.

[B]

I guess our critical risk controls across our global business are critical and mandatory and we audit those across our business, whether it's in Indonesia, underground, in Mongolia, in Chile, in the us we hold all of our company or our businesses and our people to the same standard in safety. We're in the process of re. And again this is a learning out of COVID I guess with turnover and growth in the business. And we've acquired a wonderful business called Maca out of the West Australia which has given us a really strong footprint in the gold fields. We've recently acquired Pibar which is an underground mining, hard rock mining business predominantly on the east coast of Australia. But we'll take those, we'll take them overseas. Certainly already got opportunities in Cambodia, going underground with an existing client there. So I think what we are doing at the moment is we've got a thing called mining operations at Tees and we're in the process, we've just redefined that. We're in the process of rolling that back out, implementing that at all of our sites across the globe again. And that's around everything from how you do toolbox talks, how you engage with your people, what are your rituals on site to make sure that you get the right leadership and performance and safety outcomes that you're actually after, irrespective of the service you provide your clients.

[A]

So I could go to WA and have the same similar toolbox talk that I would have in Chile.

[B]

It'll be nuanced by the individual, certainly.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And the content.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But those similar standards, when's the best time to do those? What does a great safety interaction look like? What does a great safety toolbox look like? What should the content be? What are the, you know, the guys and girls starting the production shift? What do they want to know about? They want to know about how they went yesterday and they want to know about what's important and what the risks are out there, what the expectations are, setting those expectations. Clearly, at the start of each shift, you see a lot of toolbox talks around, you know, with different leaders and different supervisors. And most of us haven't been trained in public speaking at all. Some people are really natural at it, I can tell. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And some people are really good at it, some people aren't. And a lot of our supervisors have come off the floor, obviously, or through operators and sort of making sure that they've all been sort of trained to a level they know how to get their message across, because that's the important thing to. Particularly from a safety perspective. So really sort of getting some of those basics entrenched across our global business makes a big difference.

[A]

How do you communicate with 15,000 people? It seems like an almost impossible task, but how does the communication across the business work? How do you. If you have a message to get across, how do you get it across?

[B]

We'll rely on leadership a lot. I mean, we've got an executive, strong executive team. We divide into four regions globally, sort of east and West, Australia, Asia and Americas in the organisation. We've got a leadership group of about 150 people that get together monthly on calls, you know, all different time zones for us to give them an update about where the business is, what's going on in the business, what's going well, what's not going well, what we should be focused on, cascading the message down. That's only as good as the. The leaders you've got in the business. And again, some leaders do it well, some don't, but I guess setting an expectation that those messages are important, that people on the front line do want to hear about it and therefore, you know, deliver the messages that want to come from me, but also nuance them for your site or for your office as well. And, yeah, I guess, yeah, we've got different forums where we get different people together, we get our technical people together, get our assets People together. And again, that's about sharing best practice, you know, lessons learned. We have very regular safety forums globally with our project managers. Again, sharing lessons learned from incidents within our organization, but not just incidents. I guess some really good stuff that's happening and I think celebrating success is something we as an organization need to continually do better. And lots of companies do. I think we often focus on what not going well rather than all the great stuff that's happening. And that's. That's probably the key thing that we need. I need to do more of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's. But that's also why you're in the position you are, is it can always be better. You're always focused on what could be. What could be improved. What do you. How do you see the future, the future of mining? I know that's a broad question, but. Yeah, where, where do you see the industry going? Because you're, you're in a very. I'm in a unique position. You're in a very unique position. You see a lot of the industry, you talk to a lot of very key people within the marketplace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What, what's the sentiment? Where are the opportunities? Where do you think the industry's going?

[B]

The world needs minerals and they come out of the ground. I mean, let's be frank at the moment, anyway. I mean, recycling is going to be more prominent until we do asteroid mining, deep sea mining. So the world needs mining. I think, again, lifting the awareness of people where their consumables, where their devices, where they actually come from and what generates those, I think then linking that back to the really positive things that the industry brings, the mining industry brings to the world. I think importantly with that, though, to win the younger generation, we have to be seen as the future of energy transition. And that's not just through the commodities that we mine, but it's through the decarbonisation efforts of mining itself. And I mean, you see it here today. You know, there's some fantastic technology and it's going to take a long time to decarbonise mining. But it started and we need to continue. And I think in time, I think treating first nations people with dignity and respect is critical. I think having more inclusive workforce that's more representative of society in general is critical to us as well. And again, we've got a long way to go there. And I think the more we take progressive steps, the more I think word will get out, the message needs to come through our communities, come through our people, that this is a great industry and we do great things and you know, we'll make mistakes. And I think owning up to those mistakes, owning up to the lessons learned and improving and sort of trying to put a stake in the ground and making sure those things don't repeat is critical. So it's about you know, being a really values driven industry I think is what we need to focus on and.

[A]

I think it is in a lot of ways. You talked workforce two being more representative. I think Australia has done quite a nice job at that and Chile has also done an incredible job at that. Like you know, women mine site in America, quite, quite a rarity. But Australia, a lot of women in mining and then Chile was incredible. It was like just because they've, they've, they've made a really diligent effort and, and they've asked the question what do we need to, how do we need to adjust our business to make this a reality? Not how do they need to adjust themselves to our business for this to work?

[B]

Yeah, that's not, that's doesn't work.

[A]

It's completely unreasonable. But yeah, I think mining has a lot to offer groups like that because the rosters especially in Australia like working one week on, one week off then with the time off as well. You're in some of these, in some of these mines working half of the year.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

In theory which I think is remarkable. And to me as a young person that's really attractive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I feel like that kind of stuff isn't. The word's not really even out about the schedules and the flexibility you have. Cause it's a 247 operation operation. But there's a lot of flexibility with that in a way for people that work there, which I think is pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah. And designing, I think designing rosters and your engagement employee employment strategies around the particular mine and the community around the mine as well. I mean, I mean I think fundamentally creating respectful workplaces is what does lead to, you know, a more diverse workforce. I think it's, you can't just go and hire a whole lot of people who either haven't been in mining or you know, if you look in the past you bring them into the industry. Don't create a safe space for them to work, feel disempowered, leave very quickly. So I think creating that respectful workplace having again I think the more representative of our leadership is in our, in our teams as well as you crank through. And again you don't get a lot of women sort of going through mining school you know, 20 years ago and so, you know, making sure you select on capability and culture rather than just technical competence is critically important. So recognizing a lot about leadership isn't necessarily the technical competence you got, but it's about how you lead a team of competent people. Sure. So I think being more open to giving people a shot in leadership roles and supporting them is critically important. But I think, yeah, the respectful workplace is something we're focused on in teas. I think across our industry. We had a wake up call in 2020 as an industry where there was a human rights report handed down and mining was the second worst industry from a sexual harassment perspective. So you think about, you know, why people or one, what they think about mining and two, why they don't want to come and work in the mining space. And so again, we did, we led a task force across the industry, which I chaired, around respectful workplaces and what we can do to try and create respectful workplaces. What does it look like? What's the materials? How do we train our people and educate them about what that actually means?

[A]

How do you, how do you do that?

[B]

Difficult, but we've been doing it for four years now. Again, a lot of it's about setting a culture, defining the values and behaviours that you'll accept and I guess importantly, the values and behaviours or the behaviours that you won't accept and then dealing with those consequences, they have consequences and being pretty firm from that. And if you think about the step change we made in safety in mining, again, it was through that zero tolerance to poor behaviour, dealing with something when you saw it, not walking past it, giving people a right to speak up. I think it's the same in a respectful workplace. Now we've got to set those same levels of guidelines and, you know, zero tolerance to poor behaviour, whether it's sexual harassment, bullying, harassment, and make sure that younger people, women, you know, indigenous people that come into our workforce, veterans that come back into mining, that there is a safe place to work and they've got avenues to go to get further support if it's, you know, not what they thought it was. So sure and constant education of your people, of your leaders and. But importantly, dealing with the, I guess celebrating success when you see it and dealing with poor performance when you don't.

[A]

I think, I guess that's a lesson I've learned in leadership. You have to define what the standard is. Gray area is the enemy. And you think gray area gives people more freedom, but defining the standard ironically gives them more freedom because then they know, okay, all right, so here's the bounds and I can operate within those bounds. I like this because I know where the bounds are. When I don't know where the bounds are, I'm anxious about it and then I'm going outside of those bounds. And then from a leadership standpoint, you're frustrated because they don't understand. It's like, well, why don't they understand? Well, I haven't defined that very, very clearly. So I think safety, culture, everything is similar in that regard.

[B]

And I think that's just. I mean, you think about clarity of your role and expectations of role in leadership or on the front line. I mean, if we don't. If we employ people, bring them into the organization and don't clearly define expectations, define those values, define the outcomes that we expect through production, through safety, through all the metrics. If we don't define those, then there isn't clarity and it is gray and you don't get optimal performance and you don't get the outcomes you want.

[A]

Expectations. You earlier said tease family business and you've tried to work that through the organization. Mining. I think one of the negative connotations associated with mining is it can be tough having a family and having a life outside of this, outside of this world sometimes. It doesn't always align. How have you worked through that over your career? Because you've been around the world, you've probably worked plenty hours, you're probably away from home a lot. What have you learned from your career and your family and how to manage both of those things?

[B]

Probably a question for my four kids and my wife, but at times not very well. Yeah, certainly I've had all four of my kids while I've been working for Tees. So they're now 20, 23, 21, 22, 20 and 17. So one in school, two at uni, one left. I think having us, you know, my wife's always worked as well. She's a social worker and does great stuff. I think constantly keeping in contact with them, trying to spend time, when you do get home with them, quality time, which is difficult. I think in teese, we sort of, again, China, it's a very different place than it was 26 years ago. Back then, it was sort of you went where you were told you were going. Your next job was if you didn't perform, you got fired. There was no support, it was just sink or swim. So I think we got a. We've sort of realised that that, you know, works for a while but doesn't sort of necessarily get you there in the long term. Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know we've got rosters now designed around family, you know, particularly residential where we've got a, a couple of our mines have got nine, 9am to 1pm rosters where the mums and dads who are sort of looking after the kids sort of come in from nine to one, drive equipment, means we can get additional work done, topsoiling, whatever, manage through crib breaks and lunch breaks and then they chop off and pick up the kids, look after the family duties. And it's interesting in some of those, some of those mines as not quite as many men but there's quite a lot of men that have taken us up on that as well.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I think trying to design your rosters where you can be particularly residential, somewhat more family friendly and actually encourage people into the industry that wouldn't normally be there through those rosters. But I think a lot of it's about culture. At the end of the day people want to, if people want to turn up for work, they want to sort of excel, demonstrate what they can do, bring their full capability, enjoy what they do, but feel like they made a real difference. I think there's always going to be sacrifices with family and work and not just in mining but anywhere and long hours and all of that. But I think ultimately it's a well paying industry, certainly far more than most others. And I think if it can become more respectful, inclusive, if we can be seen as the future of the energy transition rather than just digging stuff out of the ground and processing it, I think we'll encourage a lot more people who want to become part of the journey and therefore be prepared to sacrifice. I mean my kids, you know, they know what I do obviously, but they're proud that what I do with teas, which I think is important to our people. We've got 15,000 families around the world.

[A]

So yeah, yeah, it's, I think mining gives the next generation a lot of what they're looking for. One, we haven't talked about money but you can make some money. You can, you can get paid really well. They, they were kind of joking when we were in wa, like wearing one of these shirts around in town. It makes you more attractive because they know you, you know, you're in mining, you must make some money. Uh, I don't know how. Didn't work for me. Yeah, it didn't work for me but it must have been off day.

[B]

Um, the competition.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So, so, so money one, but then two, that bigger picture purpose. Hey we really are making a difference in the world. And then three on a more a micro level, you can see what you do every day. Like, we. I think that's so cool, going to different mines. You know, we went to all of downs before they'd started mining, and then we went back another year, and to just see the transformation of the exact same place was. It's almost hard to wrap your mind around because it's so dramatically different. And I think that's really satisfying. And it presents different challenges every day. So you can be going into the same hole every day, but no two days are really the same because it's a physical environment that's changing every single day. Like, you go into the office. The office doesn't change. It is the office, but the mind, it's different every day, every week, every month, every year. And I think that's pretty extraordinary.

[B]

Yeah. And I think having that strong purpose, I mean, you just spoke with Olive Downs. I mean, I mean, fantastic opportunity for technology to really demonstrate what technology brings. And I think we're getting closer to demonstrating that. And I think next time you go back there, you'll see, you see where that mine's got to. But I think as well as that, you know, at that particular mine, you know, the Pembroke, the owner of the mine, I mean, from day one, it was about sustainability and technology, and so set up a koala sanctuary, which you may or may not have seen.

[A]

I got to pet one of the koalas.

[B]

No, did you?

[A]

I got the koala tour.

[B]

Well done. But again, I think it's genuine commitment to sustainability and preservation of native species, and I think that's critically important. So, again, I think all of these things we need to do as an industry so much better and sing our praises a little bit. I think sometimes we're a bit humble. We certainly get focused on when things go poorly. And I think it's important to celebrate success and really be out there about what we do do. And the best way to do that is through word of mouth, through our communities. I mean, what. You do a great job with your podcast, but I think the more we do and the more people understand what we do and that we are a part of the future, not part of the past. I mean, we're a part of the past, but that we're a part of the future. And we are part of the energy transition. And you need mining and you need more of it, not less of it, but we've got to do it sustainably and we've got to do it with indigenous cultures in mind. Certainly you got to do it with a more diverse workforce that benefits everyone, not just the male population, you know, so there's so many things we can continue to do better but it is a great industry.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's extraordinary. I don't. I think we're just out about time here but I'm glad we were able to do this.

[B]

No, I appreciate it.

[A]

I made a post yesterday or the day before on social media. I've been, I've been following tees since high school saving, saving pictures of tees working in Australia since, since high school.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So it's pretty cool to be here to be with you to be go into some of these operations as we have.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's exciting.

[B]

Yeah. And appreciate your support and what you do for the mining industry.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. Awesome. Well, thank you.

[B]

Good. Thanks very much. Good mate.

[A]

Right on.