Vadim Kovalev w/ Wood World – DT 376

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt: Vadim Kovalev w/ Wood World – DT 376
Date: September 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Dirt Talk features host Aaron Witt in a wide-ranging, energizing conversation with Vadim Kovalev, founder of the Wood World media agency, mechanical engineer, and influential storyteller in the forestry and sawmilling world. Their talk dives into the complexities, challenges, and importance of the wood and resource industries, Vadim’s immigrant background, his career path from Russian roots to Pacific Northwestern forestry, and the pressing need to shed light on misunderstood industries shaping daily life.

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Main Themes & Key Insights

1. The Wood World—Public Perception vs. Reality

• Everyday Use of Wood: Vadim and Aaron open by joking about how everyone interacts with wood daily (toilet paper, furniture, etc.), yet few recognize its pervasiveness and importance (00:00–03:00).
• The Diverse Wood Industry: The wood industry is much more than “just logs”—it’s a vast world spanning from reforestation and sawmilling to high-tech optimization, automation, pallets, and global trade (00:00–06:00; 58:30–1:01:00).
• Resource Stereotypes: Both guests emphasize the “logical fallacies” that plague public understanding—namely, the equating of any tree-felling with environmental disaster, without recognizing sustainable forestry or the everyday goods it provides (114:46–116:57).
• “We are the environmentalists”: Vadim contends that the resource industries themselves house most of the environmental science and stewardship know-how (122:45–123:05).

Quote:
"If you were to zoom out and look at the Earth...wherever there's trees, there's people harvesting them and making stuff out of them. Wood fiber is used in so many things people don't even think about." — Vadim (42:00)

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2. Regions & Contrasts—Forestry of the Northwest vs. Southeast

• Geographic & Economic Differences: Aaron and Vadim unpack how logging is strikingly different in the Pacific Northwest vs. the Southeast: bigger, older trees, steep terrain, more expensive machinery and tech in the Northwest; flatter land, faster-growing pines, lower margins, mills exerting economic control in the Southeast (05:50–08:47).
• Advanced Logging Operations: Stories of logging technology such as tethered feller bunchers, yarders, and custom-built machines in the Northwest; the economics that drive what’s possible—and not—in each region (07:23–11:32).
• Mill Dynamics: Southeast mills, driven by high volumes and low prices, leave loggers with razor-thin margins and little leverage despite record profits at mills during COVID-19 and housing booms (11:32–13:16).

Quote:
"The logging up in the Northwest could not be more different from the Southeast...Economically, there's more volume in the Southeast, but it is cheap. Whereas Northwest, you’ve got some fancier stuff...it’s a higher end product." — Aaron (06:00)

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3. Vadim’s Immigration Story & Perspective

• Soviet History and Resilience: Vadim recounts his family’s journey from Russia to Oregon due to religious persecution and economic hardship, including his grandfather’s time in the gulag and the family’s refusal to “go with the agenda” (13:50–16:41).
• Appreciating Opportunity: Stories highlight humility and gratitude, such as Vadim’s grandmother’s WWII experience and his family’s grounding influences (16:56–17:58).
• Learning & Language: Growing up forced to learn Russian—against his childhood wishes—now pays dividends in international business and global outreach (27:45–29:04).

Quote:
"My background is what fuels a lot of what I’m doing. I just can’t not have a fire lit under my ass...insane energy. That’s part of what fuels me." — Vadim (17:42)

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4. Engineering Journey and Entry into Wood

• Practical Learning: Vadim describes how he used high school/college opportunities (the Running Start program) and tenacity to “play the student card,” landing hands-on apprenticeships and job shadows in engineering and resource companies (23:02–34:08).
• Mechanical Engineering and Career Shifts: He emphasizes following curiosity, not just titles, and the iterative value of trying new things, learning from failure, and discovering dislikes as well as likes—advice for young people entering any field (47:28–51:09).
• First Steps in the Sawmill Tech World: His break came from a Craigslist internship at JoeScan while still a teen, where he worked in 3D scanning for sawmills and began seeing the “massive industry” behind everyday wood products (39:47–43:48).

Quote:
"Go try stuff and go fail. Go start something. Go do something. Wouldn't you agree? Take steps to fill in those variables." — Vadim (49:27)

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5. Technological Innovation in the Sawmill Industry

• Optimizing the Organic: Vadim breaks down how scanners and math are used to maximize the value extracted from irregular logs—“deconstructive manufacturing”—solutions like point clouds, 3D imaging, and automation (43:48–55:03).
• Intellectual Property & Challenging Status Quo: He recounts how fieldwork in Amish Pennsylvania led to patented innovations in scanner design, striving to reduce complexity for end-users (69:04–73:19).
• Sawmill Automation: Even traditionally off-grid communities (like the Amish) adopt tech to survive and compete, highlighting how economic pressures drive adoption of optimization tools (69:46–73:19).

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6. Industry Leadership, Storytelling, and Becoming an ‘Influencer’

• Unplanned Influence: Vadim explains how his innate fascination with video, combined with seeing the lack of public-facing content for the wood industry, led him to shoot and share process videos (“the inside of a sawmill in 4K”), catalyzing a new industry role (74:11–78:13).
• Tipping Points: A chance, humorous encounter with a sawmill industry giant (Brian Fehr of BID Group) at a tradeshow led Vadim to a new role as a content creator, documenting and promoting the first-ever turnkey mill construction processes (80:59–89:34).
• Transition to Entrepreneurship: Finding corporate constraints limiting, Vadim was encouraged to start his own agency, leading to impactful industry advocacy, outreach, and partnership work from 2017 onward (89:34–91:27).

Quote:
"I never thought about becoming...an influencer or whatever they’d call it. But I’m signing contracts and they say, 'You’re an influencer.' If that’s what you want to call it..." — Vadim (74:02)

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7. Industry Challenges: Workforce, Demoralization, Reputation

• Recruitment & Retention: Both Aaron and Vadim detail the steep labor shortages facing forestry, sawmilling, and mining, exacerbated by persistent negative public perceptions and messaging that have “demoralized” entire sectors (91:27–92:27; 110:55–111:52).
• Pride vs. Stigma: Workers are proud, but routinely stigmatized. Company owners need to “arm your people with a story” about the meaning and importance of their work—from the debarker operator up (112:18–114:17).
• The Narrative War: Industry inaction and fear (of lawyers or environmental groups) have surrendered the public narrative, making it urgent to shift towards proactive, transparent storytelling to combat misinformation (116:57–120:46).

Quote:
"We’re not gonna talk about it, we’re gonna hide back here. And it should be fine. Right? ...Well, it’s ended up becoming a huge problem...You surrender the entire narrative to groups that can take it and wield it in some pretty potent ways." — Aaron (94:09)

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8. Sustainable Stewardship, Policy, and the Big Picture

• Sustainable Forestry: Vadim and Aaron highlight U.S. reforestation rates, debunk clear-cutting panic, and describe how modern forestry is “positive for four decades”—planting five trees for every one harvested (93:33–93:43).
• Complex Realities & Global Examples: Stories touch on the exploitation of resources abroad (Africa, the Amazon) versus idolization and over-protection (California, B.C.), ultimately calling for a wisdom-based, “holistic” management lens (98:16–101:20).
• Genesis and Stewardship: Vadim roots his convictions in the Biblical call to “subdue” the earth—not via exploitation, nor by idolizing untouched nature, but through responsibility, production, and stewardship (95:51–98:16).

Quote:
“There’s two crazy extremes...one is exploitation...the other extreme is idolizing the natural resource...we’re called to subdue, which to me means wisely, sustainably steward.” — Vadim (98:20)

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9. Call to Action: Transparency, Ownership, and Future-Proofing

• Stop Victimhood, Start Storytelling: Both hosts refuse the “victim” mindset—if industry players don’t advocate for themselves and own their stories, no outside group will save them (103:41–104:28; 120:46–124:12).
• Long-Term Vision: Laws, political wins, and PR victories are fleeting—the only sustainable advocacy is a persistent, grassroots, positive narrative shared by everyone in the field (115:58–116:57).
• Younger Generation’s Burden: Aaron voices frustration with older industry gatekeepers resisting change, stressing that the urgent work of protecting resource development for future generations can’t wait (105:48–108:35).

Quote:
"We can sit around and blame people, but we've got to do something about this, because no one else is going to...If you don't do your part, it's not going to change. And if it doesn't change, we are fucked...We're playing with something that shouldn't be played with—this is the future we're playing with." — Aaron (104:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• On Logging Tech:
  "One of my favorite sounds in the world is a feller buncher hitting a tree...I love it." — Aaron (09:11)

• On College Mindset:
  "Go try stuff and go fail...You have to reverse engineer yourself." — Vadim (48:03)

• On Sawmill Patents:
  "I'm not taking the credit—there was a whole team of us engineers working on it. But my point is: just challenge the status quo...Let's solve that for our customers so they can just plug it in and be done." — Vadim (73:19)

• On Name Recognition:
  "Brian is the ‘B’ in BID [Group]...I got all kind of, like, scared, because I should have probably said other things." — Vadim (80:59)

• On Public Narratives:
  "Every time I put a tree getting felled...on the internet—guaranteed, so many comments about how they're killing the planet. Just like clockwork." — Aaron (114:46)

• On Industry Agency:
  "If you don’t do your part, it’s not going to change...We are fucked, for lack of a better term...Can you at least just not be in the way?" — Aaron (104:28–106:15)

• On Biblical Roots:
  "There's a word, 'subdue'...We, the people put on this planet, are given an instruction: go subdue it...We're not called to exploit...The other extreme is idolizing the resource...We’re called to subdue, which to me means wisely, sustainably steward." — Vadim (95:51–98:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–03:00 – Opening banter, public’s daily interaction with wood
• 05:50–08:47 – Northwest vs. Southeast logging operations, economics, tech
• 13:50–17:58 – Vadim's immigration, Soviet-era persecution, WWII family stories
• 23:02–34:08 – Engineering education, “student card,” job shadow stories
• 39:47–43:48 – First sawmill job, 3D scanning, introduction to wood world
• 69:04–73:19 – Field innovation, Amish sawmills, cable simplification, patent
• 74:11–78:13 – Becoming an industry content creator, “sawmill in 4K”
• 90:00–91:27 – Industry labor shortages and reputation issues
• 95:51–98:20 – Stewardship, Genesis, extremes of exploitation/idolization
• 114:46–116:57 – Public misconceptions, losing the narrative, advocacy
• 119:19–120:46 – Transparency as the remedy, shining light on good work
• 122:45–123:05 – Scientists and environmentalists are within the industry

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Conclusion

Vadim and Aaron’s candid, high-energy exchange ultimately calls out the urgent need for a new narrative around resource industries. Wood and dirt are foundational—yet misunderstood—sectors with global stakes. Through personal story, innovation, and advocacy, leaders like Vadim (and platforms like Dirt Talk) are starting to “shine the light,” arm workers with pride and fact, and recast logging, mining, and construction as honorable, essential, and sustainable work—so long as the industry itself steps forward to tell the story.

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Useful For:
Anyone in the resource, forestry, construction, or adjacent fields will find actionable perspective, motivation, and fresh context from this episode—whether you’re a student, manager, or industry veteran seeking to understand (or change) the story we tell about the world we build.

Transcript

[A]

Get this. Last night I walked around Broadway and asked a bunch of strangers, like, the basics of. Well, talk to me about. In your daily life, what kind of wood or wood products do you encounter or do you use? I'm sure everybody uses toilet paper.

[B]

Yeah. Have you ever pooped? Yes, they. But in a lot of, A lot of other countries, they don't use toilet paper.

[A]

But they have, they have a home.

[B]

Go to Middle East. It's like. And I'm not a fan of that. Or Indonesia. They didn't have it either.

[A]

You gotta buy it or what?

[B]

No, they just use the. Every toilet has a little bidet sprinkler. Yeah. And I don't know how to use that. I need somebody to show me, but it's like, it's not something I'm gonna ask somebody to give me a tutorial about. I'm not looking that up on the Internet.

[A]

Ye. I grew up in the northwest. Almost 30 years of my life in the Northwest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for me, personally, I love the Northwest. I love the trees, the nature. I fell in love with what I call the wood world in the Northwest. You know, I grew up there. I wasn't born there. I was born in Russia. But my parents immigrated to the Northwest when I was five. And then that's all I know is the Northwest. And we talk about the hot and humid Florida, but I deliberately moved to Florida because nine months out of the year in the Portland area, you get gray and gloomy and it's 50 degrees and there's a drizzle, and then it goes up and down from there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas in Florida, we see sun all the time.

[B]

Yeah. It's not even the warmth for me. It's the sun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I grew up with the sun in Phoenix.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I moved away. Now in Nashville, it's like, it's still sunny a lot, but it, It'll, I mean, even just a week without the sun in winter, it just, it's miserable. It's. I, I, I, I don't do very well with that now that I've. Like, once you've, once you've had it, once you have the sun, you're. You don't want to go back. And so I feel like I've regressed and my body's not very happy with it. Come winter. But then come summer, it's just like a. Oh, this is so not. It's, it's like the, for the first time in my life, I've realized the sun is like a vitamin and I'm lacking that Vitamin. I mean, it is vitamin D. Yeah. I'm lacking that. It's the first time in my life I've ever lacked it. And so all winter, it's just a grind. And then you come into spring and summer, and it's just like, I just feel so much better. Like, oh, yes, this is so needed. So I don't blame you moving to Florida at all. And Florida, politically speaking, post 2020 is a lot more reasonable, especially Washington, even just like, from a tax standpoint, from an employment standpoint, it's a tough state.

[A]

It is. It is.

[B]

They're not making it easy.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not by any means. I got some big lumber companies that I was just meeting with there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we. I do business travel and I take my family on some of the trips. Sawmills are not in the downtown Nashville kind of places. Right. They're not in the big cities. Sure. So on a special occasion, I'll take the family with me when it's like a convention or a nice place that we can go to. But so anyways, we just came back from the Northwest with the family. While I'm there, we're hanging out with both sides of the family. My brother's her. She's got a large family as well. Grandparents are hanging out with the kids. And then I'm always trying to post about where I am. And companies reach out to me. Just probably very similar story to yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm in. I'm in whatever city. Like, I'm in Portland, Oregon area. And I get hit up with, like, really cool companies that are inviting me there have something to do with the wood world. So even though we're there, like, to go see family, my daily schedule kind of like books up pretty quick. Guys reach out and they say, straight example company in Oregon called Oregon Tool, they make chainsaw chain. And the guy reaches out and he. Tons of people reach out to you as well. And so it's like, hey, come here. Visit us. Do this. And the guy reaches out and he set a hook. That was really nice. He says, we make enough chain to go around the planet one and a half times every year. And I'm like, you got my attention.

[B]

That's a lot of chainsaw chain.

[A]

I'm telling you. Little teeth, I'm telling you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I said, I'm game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So anyways, stuff. Stuff like that comes up all the time. I'm coming to Nashville. I did a poll on my LinkedIn account. It was like, who's gonna be at this conference that I'm here In town for sfpa and this gal that I've been communicating, she works at a pallet making company. And she reaches out, Kate, and says, you know, when are you going to be in Nashville? I'll drop everything and make it happen. They own several facilities making pallets, like, for logistics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would love for you to come out and see our location. So we're coordinating that and making it happen. So my point is, wherever I end up going, I'm posting about it. And then companies are reaching out and saying, stop by, visit us. So I try to bring the family to as much things as I can, but it's. It's kind of hard to bring three little kids.

[B]

Yeah. To like the middle of nowhere, South Carolina, where you're like, man, this is out here.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's where South Carolina. Yeah. But last summer, my wife and I, we went up to like the Banff area up in Canada.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Middle of nowhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the kind of middle of nowhere that I really like.

[B]

Yeah. Really? Yeah. That's a little bit.

[A]

Or Whistler. Right. There are a lot of trees.

[B]

Are a lot of trees. And the logging up in the Northwest is. It could not be more different from the Southeast. Like two totally different worlds.

[A]

It's a different philosophy.

[B]

Like every. It's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

They're. They're working with trees and that's where the similarities end. Like, it's, it is wild how different it is. Absolutely. It's not. But like, I. I know enough to be dangerous.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't know very much, but I know enough to be dangerous. I've seen logging in both environments, and it is just everything, like, even. Especially economically, which drives everything else. There's just so much more money up in the Northwest from like, there's more volume in the Southeast, but it is cheap. It is so cheap. Whereas Northwest, you've got some fancier stuff. You can ball out a little bit more. It's a higher end product.

[A]

It is a higher end product. I think that from a differences perspective to the way I see it, or the way we could let the audience think about it, is if you think about topography, the south is a lot more flat, if you will, whereas in the Pacific Northwest, I was visiting a contractor logging in Aberdeen, Washington, kind of towards the coast. And I mean, we're talking about like, you know, there's a valley and they have to have a giant drone fly this guide wire across the valley a couple thousand feet. Then they're pulling this giant cable across.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then as they're like there's a feller buncher on the slopes tied to a tethering machine. Probably it's like a cat or something. Giant winch sending this feller buncher up and down this super steep slope, dropping those trees, felling them, and then making sense of the pattern of how he's felling them, if he's a good operator. And then, then there's a yarder, they call it. And a yarder is, you know, this giant carriage that comes down and basically grabs those trees, the stems and brings them up to the landing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's a whole bunch of operational stuff. And I mean, these trees are heavy.

[B]

Well, it's, it's. They're much bigger than the southeast and it's a much longer cycle. Growing cycle.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Usually like what, 50 years? 40.

[A]

50 years. 50 is a good number.

[B]

Yeah. In the. It's like 20 to 30.

[A]

25. 30.

[B]

25. 30.

[A]

So pine.

[B]

Yeah, it's more. It's like decades more. And then. Yeah, like this, the, the terrain is so steep. The guys in the equipment, like the guy in the feller buncher is wearing a five point harness. And if that cable, like the cable. So the machine is. Is quite literally suspended by that winch that's at the top of the hill.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it's a steel cable that is attached to that. Very expensive, very big machine, very powerful machine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And from the cable to the machine is a chain, typically a very strong steel chain. So that. Because the feller buncher, it has a disc cutting head and a disc rotating at whatever like 100 miles per hour or something like that. Yeah, it's really heavy. I mean it's, it's enough to go through a tree at the snap of your finger.

[A]

Pretty quick.

[B]

One of my favorite sounds in the world is a feller buncher hitting a tree. It's just like, oh man, I. That one of my favorite sounds. But they have this chain so that the feller buncher doesn't accidentally cut the steel cable. Because if the feller buncher cuts the steel cable, that machine's rolling off the side of the mountain, which has happened like quite a few times. It's just. And that's the environment they're working in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All day.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you say also, you say all day. Those guys literally get to the landing at like three in the morning.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well, most a lot of the time is at night. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Crazy. Yeah.

[B]

And they've like crazy lighting packages on these machines too.

[A]

It looks wicked.

[B]

They're running in the Dark. And it's. It's far north. So especially in. In winter, I mean, it's.

[A]

And if you want to see some really cool custom machines. I was just touring a shop in Kelso, Washington, or Kelso Longview area, Washington. And there's a company called summit, and this guy named Eric is like pioneering what's possible with logging. So it used to be that there's guys down there felling trees by hand. They're called fellers or what are they called? A hand, hand felt. The guys that are cutting the trees with chainsaw. What people usually think about when you think about logging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's dangerous. As we both know, there's a lot of dangerous jobs. So what's cool is this guy Eric that I've now become friends with gave me a tour of what they're doing to make it safer and using technology. And I mean, labor shortages. It's hard to get good people. It's hard to get people in general. Right. And then to train those people. All this stuff is an issue in your world, just like it is ours. So anyways, companies like Eric, I just love to go to their. I get invited. I was a keynote speaker at the Olympic logging conference, and Eric was a speaker there as well. We connected, hit it off. And he's like, hey, whenever you're in town, come check out these machines that we're building. It's a multimillion dollar machine. It's similar to the cat you got here on the desk, but it's really customized for logging operations. And anyway, they. He was showing me around. It's fascinating. There's so much technology. There's like 15 cameras on this thing. There's like this crazy lighting package that you talk about. So it's like purpose built for logging.

[B]

Yeah. Which you can get away with up in the northwest. You can't even think about that stuff down in the south.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know how much business he does in the south, to be honest with you.

[B]

You can't even like it. Just the economics just don't work. Like, the money's just not there. And it's. It's crazy too. Logging in the southeast is fascinating too, because the mills control everything. Like the. The guys cutting the wood, they. Whenever lumber went nuts in Covid because everybody was like, let's renovate our home and let's. And then you had these huge housing shortages in states like Tennessee, Florida, Carolinas, Georgia. And so these, you know, subdivisions were going like crazy. Wood was going like crazy. The mills, the amount of money they made in just like a year or a few year period.

[A]

It was record.

[B]

Like, they were making more money in a single quarter than they had for like a decade. Cumulatively, like, that's how much money they're making. But then what the guys cutting the wood were getting hadn't really changed.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

So. Because you just, It's. It's so consolidated now. It's like you just have a few mills that you can sell to. And if they want to take the wood, if they want to buy is what it is. They're gonna, you know, the price they give you is like, what else are you gonna do? You have to take our price.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I know it's just economics. I know it's just business, but it's, It's. It's also interesting because I've spent a lot of time with guys in the Southeast, and it's, It's. It's on a razor's edge, at least the producer side of things. Those that are. That. I don't know if that's the right word, but those that are cutting the wood, it hasn't changed. And it can't change because the money's just not there.

[A]

Yeah. There's a lot of great ways to. Trees are great metaphors.

[B]

So.

[A]

Trees. And like, for example, like, you could say. Anyway, the way you were just using your words. There's a really great way to, for example, to say, like, we're rooted in something, we're branching out, or. You know what I mean? There's a really. A lot of great puns in this industry.

[B]

There's. It's non stop. So you. You moved. Your family moved from Russia post Soviet demise.

[A]

Dude, what. That's.

[B]

That was the night. The 90s in Russia was a wild time, bro.

[A]

Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it, but it's really. You're. You're. My background or my context is really what fuels a lot of what I'm doing and how I'm doing it right now. And I've never really talked about it. I'm happy to talk about it if you want to go there.

[B]

Yeah. Well, why did your parents move? Probably because I'm assuming economic conditions were pretty miserable.

[A]

Part of it, religious persecution. So my grandfather was, during Stalin times, sent to the gulags labor camps to work. He lost three fingers in a sawmill accident. Yeah, dude. Like, my grandfather was pulled away from his wife and he had, you know, four kids or whatever. Like, they had a little one that was just born.

[B]

For religious reasons.

[A]

Yeah. Because he was preaching at their church. He was a believer. He's a Christian. So you could not be Christian during the Soviet era. You had to be. You're either with the government or you're. Or you're not. And so. Right.

[B]

Because isn't. But isn't Russia now? Isn't that. Isn't it a Christian?

[A]

There's a. There's a state agenda, and Christianity wasn't part of that. And so more practically. So my grandfather, my grandmother, all of their side of their families were persecuted. Crazy stories there. My parents are growing up, you know, and probably 80s, 90s, and so my parents couldn't get past grade 8 education because their teachers would go tell whatever someone that they saw them at the small church that they were a part of at the time. And so then those kids would be told that they could not go. Like, my mom wanted to pursue medical. Dad wanted to go do something else. He had to go to work in construction because he had to provide. And mom couldn't go get into the medical. The other layer, before we get to economics is my, like, my mom did not want my brother at the time, it was my brother and I. Younger brother to get. Like, there's a required military program. You have to go through a year, two years of service or whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People get pretty messed up coming back from that. Sure. So within our family, we've had that. And so while we were still kids, they started basically, America was the future. And like, my parents sacrificed everything that they possibly could to be able to relocate and give their kids a better new start.

[B]

Was it all Christianity they're persecuting, or was it only certain types?

[A]

Brother, if you weren't with the agenda, you were against the agenda.

[B]

Yeah, I see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's wild.

[A]

It's insane.

[B]

That's really.

[A]

So think about the opportunities we're. We take for granted, say, every. I don't. But imagine, like, growing up here and just got running water and you've got lights.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like the wealthiest person on the planet, dude. Like, you know, that just kind of keeps me grounded. Like, just my. My parents, my grandparents, who I actually interviewed. It wasn't a podcast or anything, but I just went and talked to my grandparents who. My grandmother died, and I've got her on video tonight. World War II. Stories like, she lost her mother, a sniper took out her mother and her friend in what. What's Crimea now?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

She was born in Russia, technically, in the Soviet times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then it became Ukraine. Now it's, I guess, Russia again. Yeah, there's so much context there that like, I just can't not have a fire lit under my ass. And I'm burning every single day. Like just, I got this insane energy. I think that's part of what fuels me.

[B]

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[A]

There was some kind of program. I wish I could remember all the details. I was a kid. Right. Like, I didn't have the choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they landed in the Portland area. Portland, Oregon area. Because there was some religious. They were, there was accommodations. There was like some kind of like food stamps. I think there was some kind of like immigrant program.

[B]

Yeah. Like post Soviet Union, something like that.

[A]

Yeah. And I know other, my parents, older siblings started to move to that area. So they just went to wherever there was kind of like already people are getting going. I don't know why they chose Portland. I wish actually I wouldn't wish anything different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It was my story that I'm gonna, I'm gonna own it. And that's, that's where I grew up. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and it's beautiful. Mountains, trees.

[B]

It is gorgeous.

[A]

Absolutely amazing.

[B]

Oh, man. Yeah, I, like I said the first time I was in Portland, then we did the Columbia River Valley there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my word. It has to be some of the prettiest. The, it has to be some of the prettiest land I've ever seen. But definitely in America. It's like a lot of. And a lot of people haven't been up there. Like out, out, like get away from Portland or Seattle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like everybody goes up there and they go to, like, downtown Seattle. It's like, for goodness sakes, no, dude.

[A]

Seattle's not a good place to go.

[B]

No, it's, it's not. Like, especially downtown. It's like, all right, go there once. Go get your picture at Pike's Place, and then you never have to go back to downtown Seattle ever again.

[A]

Crazy stories about Seattle, too.

[B]

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of. And they're like in, in, in the city outside of downtown, a lot of great places. I, I, I actually quite enjoy the city, but it's like, if you get, if you get just a little outside, like the, the even like, like Olympic National Park.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

It's crazy what's out there and just how diverse. Like Olympic, I think, is the most diverse national park in the United States because it has so many different ecosystems in one area. Like, it has almost everything in one area.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it's just like, until I was an adult and saw it, I'm like, I had no idea this even existed. No one even talks about this, dude.

[A]

The other cool thing is there's a whole bunch of islands. Did you ever go to those? Like the Orcas Islands. And a Cordis is out there. There's so many cool ferries. Like, you could literally drive your car into this ferry and it'll take you to all these cool islands. We rented an Airbnb with our families as kids, like, growing up, parents would, like, rent a beach house on the Pacific coast or do a giant road trip. And that's how I met my wife, actually is like, we were from the same church youth group, but our families, our parents connected really well. They've got a lot of kids. We've got a lot of kids. And so. And so anyways, a couple of families would, like, join together and we'd go rent, like a giant house somewhere. So one of those trips was up to the islands. Nice, like, memories for life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, as a kid growing up, basically our friends group parents had their friends group. They'd rent, like, I guess as big of a house as they could fit all of us. And then we got ferry on the ferries, we went to those islands. And then there's just beautiful. There's trees, there's water, there's unbelievable.

[B]

It must be a zoo with how many kids?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I guess it's normally a zoo with just your kids. Yeah, well, I know different. Really?

[A]

Yeah. I grew up. I'm the oldest of five boys.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So we always had wrestling matches and all kinds of stuff. But I left the house kind of young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what's.

[B]

What's young?

[A]

I got married when I was 19.

[B]

Oh, really? That is young. Yeah.

[A]

Kind of not normal.

[B]

How old was your wife?

[A]

Same age.

[B]

Same age. So you're both 19?

[A]

19, 20 when we got married. Did you go to school? Say again?

[B]

College. Did you go to college or no?

[A]

Yeah, that all happened. I went to. Graduated Washington State University in Vancouver. Brand new campus. And dude, it was. You want me to go through that? I can look at this. So I'll fast forward. Right. So parents immigrate. I was five.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Growing up, oldest of five boys. Started, like, falling in love with math and science and building stuff. Like, I want to have. I want to touch stuff. I want to, like, make something. And then during high school, we had this really great running start program. So Battleground High School is where I was like, officially registered as a student. But we were able to go to the Clark College. It was called Clark Community College in Vancouver. And basically, like, you could finish your whole. The rest of your high school experience with a couple of quarters of classes. And then there are states paying for it. So you just take whatever classes you want. So you get an expedited head start. So it's Clark. It's called Running Start. That's the program I went through.

[B]

I see.

[A]

So I started.

[B]

So it wasn't a running program. It was school related.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I know. You're a runner.

[B]

Yeah. Gotcha.

[A]

It wasn't running.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Unfortunately. So Running Start. Running Start was amazing. So junior senior year, I'm going to community college from battleground, driving like 20, 30 minutes each way.

[B]

You're not even 18.

[A]

No.

[B]

At this point, you're just a. Technically a high school kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I'm driving to community college and I'm taking college courses. And I was just like. Like with all that context. Right. Of my parents, my grandparents, I'm like, I'm given an opportunity to get college education while I'm in high school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, get after it. And they're gonna, like, pay for it. Like, what more do you want?

[B]

So you had the context growing up. Like, you understood that at that time.

[A]

Yeah, very clearly.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, extremely clearly. Like, I'm like, I'm given this opportunity and I'm not gonna, like. I guess I didn't have an older sibling, so I didn't have somebody to set the bar. There was no bar. So for my younger force brothers, I was always feeling like, well, I'm gonna try to go set the bar. As high as I can.

[B]

Was. Was that because your parents were telling you to do that, or that was just.

[A]

They didn't know what I was doing.

[B]

Intrinsic.

[A]

Yeah. That was, like, built in, I guess. I don't know how to describe that. No, no. My. My father, Alexei Kovalev. There's gonna be cool stories with Alexei.

[B]

Kovalev coming up, but that's a very Russian name.

[A]

Yeah. And there's a really famous hockey player. His name's also Alexei Coppola. There's funny stories about that, but I guess. Yeah. Dad would come up and I'm, like, studying. I'm, like, doing this running start program. I'm just, like, books and doing, like, calculus or whatever and figuring out integrals and all the other crazy math. I loved it.

[B]

Any girls? I haven't thought about that, bro. Long time.

[A]

You brought it up. So I'm doing this, like, crazy math, and I'm just geeking out, dude. I love it. I love to. Because I. Because I saw that, like, the natural world that we live in is all very rational. Like, it makes sense. And so I'm studying these crazy math. Not for anything else, but. Yeah. I have to get the engineering degrees, kind of what I was pursuing, but I'm like, wow. Like, you can explain the world through math. Like, it makes sense. And how. Anyways, math is a whole new subject. Right. It's like. It's not physical, but how does it exist? And how does every. How does the world make sense without math? It doesn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all of that. So, like, I'm figuring it out, and they're teaching me. I'm like, let's get it. So going through school and you're asking about my. My father. I remember a particular moment, like, I'm studying. I'm, like, deep in the books. He comes up behind me, and it's like, giving me, like, a. Like a massage, like. Like squeezing my shoulders. He's like. He's looking over my shoulder, and I'll never forget. I don't. I kind of paraphrase, but he says, I really don't know what you're studying. And that looks, like, complicated, but I'm rooting for you. He doesn't speak English that well now. He's got, you know, immigrants.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He speaks Russian. Russian is what we spoke at home.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one of my favorite languages to listen to.

[A]

It could get pretty, like. I love it abrupt, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah, but it's. It's a little more smooth than German.

[A]

A little bit, yeah.

[B]

German's just. So I say German's like. Everything's like, 90 degrees in Germany, and even the language is just, like, harsh.

[A]

Pretty abrupt.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Whereas, like, Russian's harsh, but there's a. It has some rounded edges to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is the best way to. I can. I can explain, dude.

[A]

There's the Russian. Talking about the language, bro. Like, growing up, I had to learn two languages, and, like, that was something my parents forced. Nothing else they forced, but they forced us to go to. I don't know, on Monday nights. It was like. I dreaded it. Monday nights, we had to go to Ruska. Russian school.

[B]

Oh, really? It was, like, English school. It was Russian school.

[A]

Yeah. So once a week, we would gather at the church basement, and there's, like, groups of these immigrant kids. We're learning, freaking. I don't even know how to say these things in English, but, like, I never used them in my life, but I learned about, like, all these letters that you don't even pronounce. Like. Like is a letter.

[B]

So they were making you learn Russian.

[A]

And all the depths of. Yeah. What comes with, like, freaking?

[B]

Even though you'd.

[A]

The grammar. The depths.

[B]

You were in America at this time, bro.

[A]

And I'm like, that's the question that my brother and I are asking our parents. Like, why do we need this?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And they're like, you'll thank us later. We're, like, crying, and we're just like, like, don't. We don't want to go to this Russian school. We want to play with our friends outside.

[B]

Be sure the teachers were.

[A]

Bro. You got to, like, learn cursive and Russian when you're, like, seven. Like, while I'm trying to learn English at the same. Same time. Like, it's.

[B]

So do you. You go to engineering school?

[A]

I did, yeah. It was a blast. I loved it.

[B]

What'd you get? Mechanical.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Mechanical engineering. I loved it. But it was a little journey to get there because I. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know I want to do mechanical engineering. Like, I. I guess this kind of. Maybe as I'm thinking about it now, probably a pattern in my life where, like, I know kind of what I want, but I don't know what it's called or how do I get there. I'm gonna figure it out. We're gonna blaze a path. So, like, I get to. Okay. I get to sign up for these running START courses, and I'm sitting with my cousins. We're, like, at a church. Youth Camp in the middle of, like, they open up registration in the of the night. So we're sitting on these laptops, and I look over at my cousin Katie, and I'm like, katie, like, what classes are you going to sign up for? She's like, here's my classes. And I'm like, exhausted. I'm like, what if I sign up for those?

[B]

She's like, looks good.

[A]

That's good. So I just punched in the course numbers and, like, that was my first quarter in Clark College. I was just like. And so I'm sitting there in, like, psychology, and they're talking about childbirth, and I'm just like, this is not useful for what I want to do for my career. Like, it's useful, don't get me wrong. Psychology, yeah. But medical is not my thing. And then I'm thinking to myself, I'm not going to spend more time pursuing whatever she's going to pursue. So then the next quarter, I meet up with an advisor. I'm like, hey, I want to do something with math and science. They're like, electrical engineering is where it's at.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then I'm like, sign me right up. So the next quarter, I'm in electrical engineering, and I'm sitting there learning about electrons, and I'm like, this is in the right direction, but it's not tangible. We're going to build what, a circuit board? It's cool. It's useful. It's necessary. And then I start. We were a part of the church at this point grew that I was a part of. And I knew there was a bunch of, like, people that had careers. And I'm like, meeting up with people. I'm like, alex, where do you work? Or Dan, like, show me around where you work. And so I started getting these. I made this up. I don't know if they know that, but I said, I want to go on an official job shadow with you. And they're like, I can see if I can make that happen, bro. I got into some really crazy places as a student, I think.

[B]

But students nowadays, like, a lot of people don't realize you can. You can wield that to your advantage, especially as you're a student. Dude, everybody wants to help out a student. So it's like, if you play that student card, you should wear that card out because.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I did.

[B]

Even the places I got into, I had no business. I think about it now, I'm like, man, I had no business being involved with these people, going to these places, creating these experiences just because I was a student. Just because I asked.

[A]

I got two crazy stories. One is a company that is actually going to be an exhibitor here at sfpa. A friend of mine was running a giant lathe, the biggest lathe you can imagine, like for machining. And he's. And a friend of mine, he's working at this company called usnr. They make sawmill equipment. Usnr. So I'm like, can I go see what you do? Yeah, come on over. So I get a tour there. And as I'm with my friend at the lathe, I'm asking, this is strategy for students watching. I'm there with my friend, who I know. And then I guess I'm a natural talker. Networker. Yeah. So then I'm like, who's your boss? He's like, you want to talk to my boss? I'm like, yeah, I do. So I go talk to the boss and I tell the boss, like, hey, I'm in college and doing these things I'm trying to figure out. He's like, I know who the guy you should meet is. Across the street, our headquarters. I don't know if the guy whose name was Chuck or something like that, but this was years ago. He walks me over to the engineering side and my friend's like, blown away. He's like, you went to the engineering building?

[B]

And I'm like, yeah, you can do that.

[A]

I'm walking around the engineering building and I hear somebody speaking in giant, like hundreds of people, engineering, all these different departments. And this super high up gentleman is walking me through to get to a conference room, let's say, to chat. And I hear like, we're walking by a room and there was. I heard Russian and I peek in there and there's these people from Russia getting trained on their equipment at the headquarters. And I bounce in there. I'm like, they're like, oh, we're from like Siberia or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, somewhere. And getting trained on equipment. Right. This is a global industry. So the Russian definitely helped. And I've been to like Japan, selling stuff in Russian all over the world. We'll get there. But yeah, the student card, right. That you were saying. Another crazy thing is there's nothing to do with our industry. But a friend of mine works at bpa, Bonneville Power Administration. They run like the dams and all the hydro and all the electrical grid of the Pacific Northwest. Friend of mine is like, sitting behind. I don't know what their titles are, but he's the one at the top. Like, if they need to shut down a power line they call Dan. So I talked to Dan. I'm like, dan, can I job shadow you? You got some kind of cool job? He's like, yeah, let's make it happen. So this is like, also before all the super security restrictions. So I get into this bunker and there's like, NASA. And I've been to NASA mission control. The actual one in Houston in the mission control room. That's another crazy story. I have an astronaut friend, Jeff Williams. We'll get there too. Anyways, but this access that you're talking about. Yeah, like, it's. I'm. With all that said, the student card played out really well for me.

[B]

So you won electrical engineering. Was. I. I got into engineering because I. I reached out to a guy and I wanted to be like him. I asked him what he studied in college. He said engineering. So I signed up for engineering school. It was the first time I'd ever even heard about engineering school.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I didn't. Just the world I grew up in. No one was an engineer like that. That was a. Like, engineering is like very solid middle class. Like, really good middle class.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That just was not the world I was involved in. So I. I had never interfaced with anything like that in my entire life. And so I. When I say I knew nothing about engineering, I did not know a thing about engineering.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most importantly, I didn't know that there was math involved in engineering. I had no. Because no one tells you, like, when you. Especially when you sign up for school. Yeah, no one. Like, there's not, like this fun little chart that you follow. So, like, so what, what are you interested in? What are you good at? Oh, I like coloring. Oh. Then you, you know, you go down this and. All right. You know, you have two choices. Do you like green or do you like red? I like green. And then you go down the green path, and then you end up at a. Well, here's what. Here's the career for you, and here's what you should study to get there.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, that doesn't exist at all universities. Like one. Just sign up. We could give a shit what you sign up for.

[A]

We just want your money.

[B]

We just want your money. So hand it over, sign up for whatever.

[A]

No, they tell you go sign up for underwater basket weaving.

[B]

Well, I mean, they don't care where you go. They just. They just want you in the door. Once they get you in the door, they just kick you into the deep end. Say, good luck, but pay us. Make sure you pay us every Quarter every semester. But actually Arizona State was very generous with how much money they gave me. They gave me too much money for my. My grades in high school. But so, yeah, sign up for engineering. Not only thing about engineering. And then I had to take an electrical engineering, like, prerequisite course. It was like circuits. It was. It was pretty basic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When it comes to electrical engineering.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That. That was really where I learned, like, work with what you are naturally good at and there's going to be some things you're just not naturally good at.

[A]

True.

[B]

And the people that say, oh, you can just work hard and figure out anything. It's like, that is the course. That's the experience I had where I learned. Like, that advice is dog. Because I worked. I could not have worked harder in this class. And I got a D, which was passing, but I got a date and I could not have worked harder. So I'm just not good at electrical engineering. And I've like translated like, I'm not good at stuff I can't see. So that's why I love the built world, because I can see it. Those are pushing dirt. It's like, it makes sense. You don't have to imagine it. It's not these little electrons jumping around and resistors and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like electricity is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned.

[A]

Same.

[B]

It's all. It's like you're telling me it's there. I don't really see it. I can't really picture it.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I'm not buying it. I think it's just witchcraft. Whereas like, like dirt, concrete, asphalt, bridges, bridges, pipelines, even power lines. I don't understand how the power goes from point A to point B. I've had it explained to me a hundred times. I still can't explain how it works, but I can see the power line. So. Yeah, good enough for me.

[A]

Yeah. And they make a sound.

[B]

They do make us. They make a little zappy sound. Yes. Which means, yeah, there's power. It was, it was a great experience. But yeah. It's just, it's. It's even like, it's funny listening to adults talk about college and they haven't been there in a long time. So do people in like their 50s.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so they haven't been there for 30 years. And even some of the stuff they say is like, you can kind of tell it's dated information. You're like, well, that's not really how it works. And even a lot of the criticism, like, I agree, we should Be criticizing the colleges they have royally. I think a whole generation, However, I think they're overly criticized in a lot of ways, too. There's a lot of good that can come out of it.

[A]

Well, listen, I don't know about everybody's experience. I had an amazing experience in college.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't due to the fact that I was partying. I had no time. Like, I think in college, I remember there was like this triangle graphic I saw. There was like, you either choose sleep, relationships, or good grades. And I tried to choose all of them, but I really suffered with sleep. Like, my relationship. I just got married.

[B]

Everybody suffers at night.

[A]

I just turned 19 in the summer, and then two weeks, I just turned 19. July 1st, and then July 14th, we get married the year. So I finished that running START program. I graduated high school, and then I. That's actually a really key moment of my life because then I. That's how I found out about this, what now I call the wood world. That was really the trigger point, I guess, if you trace it all the way back. So graduating high school, that was like, June, probably. I'm looking on. I'm looking on Craigslist. I'm graduating, right? And I'm thinking, what do engineers do at this point? I've toured enough people's jobs and, like, did the job. The job shadow thing. And then I'm thinking to myself, like, well, what are the requirements to get a job? What should I do career wise? And so I open up Craigslist, go to the ads for jobs and search engineering. And I'm looking down this list, and, you know, Craigslist, full of scam and spam and whatever.

[B]

I spent all of high school on Craigslist buying and selling aquarium stuff.

[A]

Yeah. And I was flipping out of control. I was flipping phones. Anyway, so we're going down, and then I see this thing called engineering internship. And I was like, what the heck is engineering internship? Sounds like a scam to me. So I open up this ad and it's a post about, like, we're gonna pay some high school kid or like, you know, a summer job if you want, and you're gonna be like, assembling lasers and cameras and building this thing. And I'm like, that sounds too good to be true. Why the heck not? I apply, they have me out for an interview, like, on a Friday. I fell in love with this company called Joe Scan. I owe them. Joey Nelson is the guy behind Joe Scan. But essentially, I get wrapped up into this amazing world of wood through this company. Called Joe Scan. They make a 3D laser scanner. There's cameras, electronics that scans. See how this tree has a lot of like natural live edges we call it. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, imagine when the bark is still there and it's just a log. Trees don't grow perfectly straight. And so they're all organic. Organic shapes. Right. Which makes the math a lot of fun. Anyway. So how do you get square things out of a circle thing? And so that's the name of the game. And so you have to optimize your resource. And so Joe Scan was, you could think of it as the eyes. These scanners, they have a laser. So imagine here's the tree, right. This table. If this was a full tree, you'd have a laser line coming from this device hitting this tree. And then there's a camera off to the side that's taking pictures really quickly. Right. That's how video works. So we're taking like a couple thousand pictures per second of this laser. So the laser flashes on and off and the camera captures it with a bunch of fancy math called triangulation. We're figuring out data points that are like crazy precise, crazy accurate. And then so we build this point cloud with this device that then a software takes over. So we with this Joe Scan company are basically generating a point cloud.

[B]

A three dimensional model, for lack of, for lack of better term.

[A]

Yeah. Just kind of in a sense what.

[B]

The tree looks like. You're putting the tree in the computer.

[A]

Yes. It's a good way to explain it. Yeah. So that we were the, the hardware. Right. The eyes you could say. And so you need to see it from all 360. So you need like four devices that are looking down at this log and then it's going to come flying down this primary, primary and feeder, primary breakdown process. Or it could even be like out in the log yard. Anyway, so you're. As a stem approaches a mill, it goes through a whole. There's a whole lot of technology and automation, which is something that young people don't understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a bunch of fancy math and a bunch of engineers that make this device work. I'll get to that in a minute. But I see this Craigslist post, right. And I go interview and I'm like, they want, they're gonna. Again with the context, right. They're gonna pay me to do this cool stuff and like I get to build something that goes to frickin, the southern tip of New Zealand. I've personally been to a whole bunch of places around the world because of this company. Joe Scan, because. Okay, well, here's how I usually explain to people. They're like, what do you do? And I'm like, well, think about it like this. If you were to zoom out and you look at the whole earth as a blue ball, there's blue and there's green. Blue's the water. Green is probably tree canopy. And wherever there's trees on the planet, there's people harvesting them and making stuff out of them. And as you and I know, wood. Wood fiber is used in so many different things in our daily lives. Is just. People don't even think about it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that goes back to the previous point, too. Like, when you're in college, there's not how to find a career 101 class where it's like, all right, so you're gonna go get this engineering degree. We're gonna explain to you, we're gonna help you find what you're passionate about within this field, and then we're gonna line you up with the job. I was like, that's not at all how it works either. It's like you're kind of on your own, which. Which I'm fine with, honestly, because that's how the world works. Like, you eat what you kill. That is how the world works. So if you want a great job, you go figure it out. But I think, like, there. A lot of people are lied to into thinking. I think it's just society as a whole, really, that. That people are going to take care of things for them. But it's like, no, no, no, no. Your future is your responsibility.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

If you're putting that in anybody else's hands, that is a recipe for disaster, a recipe for disappointment. There's just. There's no. Like, that's, to me, insane to go put your future into somebody else's hands. But then you have to do stuff like that, which means you have to go scour Craigslist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or talk to people or call people.

[A]

And it's uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah, it's uncomfortable. I don't know, though. I don't know. For me, I am not good at talking to people. I don't like talking to people.

[A]

I was super shy growing up.

[B]

It's. I'm. I still am not a big fan. And I say that, like, that's my nature. I enjoy talking to people, but that my nature is not to just go up to somebody. Like, I have a friend, Kevin. We'll go out for a meal, and it's like, he can't not talk to everybody. And it's like you almost have to smack them sometimes. Like, Kevin, this, this, this woman's here to just take our order. Like, we don't need to, we don't need to talk to her about life. We just, we just need to tell her we want a pizza.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's good.

[A]

Yeah. That's American culture, though.

[B]

But. No, but there, but there are some people that are just like, they just love talking to people. I'm naturally not that way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But to me, I had no, for whatever reason, I had no problem. So I, I, what I struggled with most is talking to people my age, but older people, no problem at all. Because I grew up around a lot of my friends dads. So it was like kind of like talking to my friends dads.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You just, I just grew up with these older guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'd be at these tables with these older people. And so it was, to me, that was totally normal. But like talking to a girl my age, forget it, dude. I, no way. But Talking to some 52 year old man worth $200 million easy. Like, yeah. I'm not even going to think twice about it.

[A]

Yeah. Because they could teach you something, you could learn something. Like, that's my mindset too, as a young guy. I was just like, they know something I don't and I'm going to go figure it out.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You start to go down this path of curiosity and then it's almost like a drug in a way. Like, whoa, I can just sit down with somebody, take them to lunch and just learn a bunch of. This is wild. And nowadays you have, it's, it's progressed even substantially. Like, we're not even that old. But even like the information that's available with podcasts right now, I think about that. I write about that all the time. Just like the access to information today is insane, but nothing beats just sitting down with somebody being like, so I'm a kid, I'm a dumb kid, I'm trying to figure out my life, what do I do? And then just shutting up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, there you go.

[A]

Yeah, man. And I feel like looking back at my story, I didn't plan it this way. I can't say, like I'm some super, you know, I didn't have this like, strategy like you said that like somebody set me up with. And here's your path. But looking back, I think there were some key moments that I totally. When folks are trying to figure out even now in like the youth group or the church that I'm part of now in Florida. You know, younger folks would come up and they're like, what do I do? I'm like, go find yourself a job and do stuff like internship. And like, go start doing stuff and you'll figure out if you love it or you hate it. And it's like, you start scoping down. I don't like, like, that's not. It's not just what you like to do. You got to figure out what you don't like to do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I. That's how I frame it. It's like, just find a thread to pull and start pulling and yeah, you start to, man, this sucks. Or I'm not good at this.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then you. But then you have this other tangent over here that you've discovered through doing that's like, I'm kind of curious about this. And like, following curiosity is amazing. So important. And a lot of people don't, because you've got to listen and you've got to do. And you've got to screw things up. Like. Yeah, it's an iterative process, but if you can just follow that intuition and curiosity through doing, man, it's cool. But a lot of people sit around like, man, so what do I do? They're trying to, like, think it, think about it, or they're trying to plan it. Like, no, no, that's not how it works. You've got to go gather data. You have no data.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how. How are you to figure this out? You have this whole equation. You've got to figure out a very complicated equation that is like your life.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

Yeah, it's very complicated.

[A]

And you got to reverse engineer yourself.

[B]

Yeah. But you're like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna solve this equation with no. And it's all variables right now. And I have no numbers for those variables. Well, then it doesn't work that way. It's impossible. You can't do it. You gotta go start solving for some of these variables and then you can plug those variables in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Going back to math and engineering, which I hate. And then you can solve for it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, hopefully. And. And I would say how is practically speaking is go try stuff and go fail. Go start something. Go do something. Go right. Whatever it is. Wouldn't you agree? Like, get out there and actually start taking steps to fill in those variables.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And everybody has something they can start pulling at. Everybody has something, especially with access with.

[A]

Their phones and everything. It's just.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. A lot of people struggle with that. And then what's even worse is when people struggle with that when they're, like, in their careers, they're like, midway through and they're just looking around like, oh, no, this isn't it. But then they're stuck. And I hate to see they're making good money. They've got five kids at home.

[A]

Yeah. And I hate to see it, like. But I've lived this part too, where I did the engineering thing very naturally. And, like, I wasn't looking for a title. I just was like, this is my skill set. This is what I like. I enjoy these things. Let me pursue something in that direction. Whereas I know guys from that same youth group that I grew up and went and got engineering degrees to become an engineer and hated it.

[B]

Yeah. I know a lot of people finished.

[A]

Their engineering degree and, like, dreaded it all the way through. I loved it, dude.

[B]

Sure. Well, there's a. But there's a lot of tangents even within engineering. Like, you've got to go try out engineering. There's just so many. I mean, that was. That was the best advice I got was from Rich Pearson I've talked about a hundred times. He's like, go try a bunch of stuff because you just don't know. All right, you want to be in construction. That's great. You just don't know what you want to do within construction. There's a million things you can do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't know. And I can't tell you because I don't know you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you just have to go out. And I was like, well, I know I want to do heavy machines. So screw buildings, screw houses. I'm going into dirt. Yeah. Which was okay. I could at least cross those off pretty quick. But then getting into dirt, it's just like, whoa, this is a big world. And there's so many things I can do and so many different types of companies. I go work for this massive multinational company, or I could work for a mom and pop operation in Battlefield, Washington, with a crew, you know, 12 people total at the company and try to help them get to the next generation, like, and then everything in between.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's just so much to do. And even. Even for you, probably, people are always like, wow, that's a nice little niche. Like, oh, wood. Like, good for you. Wow, that's so cute. But, you know, like, listen, lady, this is a big place. There's a lot going on here.

[A]

Tons.

[B]

You can do any. You can. You can live your. Live your life. Without it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, all the, all the intricacies now, and, and it's just. And as you get further in, like, I mean, I, I, I go out to so many job sites, and every time I go out to a job site, I'm learning something that I had no idea about. Like, even the other day. I've seen lime and cement stabilization a hundred times over, but I had never asked the question. They were doing both lime and cement on this site. I had never asked the question, like, so how do you determine how you use it? And maybe I have, but it was the first time it clicked. It was like, lime dries, cement binds. Like, oh. And now it's like, I get it, I get it. But it's like, light bulb moment. Yeah. I'd seen it so many times, though, and it's like, man, I'm out here learning, and it's so much fun. There's just more and more and more and more and more to learn.

[A]

Yeah. No, I definitely thought the same about. Oh, it's just cute. Like, this wood. Wood industry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, dude, I didn't even want to pursue wood industry, to be genuinely, genuinely honest with you. Like, I was growing up in Portland, like I was telling you about in Portland. Well, the outskirts of Portland, but that region. And then in Portland, you could think about big, fancy companies. Nike's headquarters are there. Adidas. You've got all these really cool companies. Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, starbucks, up the road.

[A]

And I was just thinking, okay, cool, this engineering thing, we'll figure it out. Let me get into engineering. I want to build products. I want to do stuff that's tangible, whether it's a phone or a product or whatever. And for some reason, early days, it started to click. Like, I wish, like, one of my bucket list items was like, to design, to develop, to build something to be proud of. And for some reason, maybe it's my. Whatever. I thought, I want a plaque. I want to. Plaque. This is the only plaque I ever wanted with my own patent. I want to invent something.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And I gotta check off that box. I'll tell you all about it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. How's that gone for you?

[A]

I have that. You could look it up.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. So I applied the engineering. Like, this is. You can't. You can't falsify. You can't. It just comes deep within. I don't know how to explain it, but, like, the point is, I get this internship for that summer. I'm like, summer's coming to an end, and I'm like, Joey, like, I love what I'm doing. The one of the first things, like my first day on the job, like, they gave me like a rag and said, like, you know, clean the. These banner stands. I'm like, what are we doing with these banner stands? Why is it. And they're like, we're going to trade show. What's a trade show? Well, that's where we go to tell the world about who we are. Why do you need to do that? And so my curiosity is. I have an insatiable curiosity that leads me into all kinds of places. And so I'm like, okay, cool. We got this device. And you need devices to scan the trees so that you can optimize. It's called an optimization process. Like I said, trees are organically shaped. You're trying to extract as much value as you can from everyone.

[B]

Yeah. You're trying, you're trying to get as many rectangles out of the circle.

[A]

True. But those rectangle. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then there's so much depth there.

[B]

Yes, yeah, yeah. It's a lot more complicated.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But it's a geometry problem. You want as many. As many rectangles.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Out of a circle.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

As you can get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the circle is imperfect.

[A]

You know what a good way to talk about it is? Like, it's called deconstructive manufacturing. So think about a steak. Think about a cow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How do you get a steak? You got to deconstruct a cow. So.

[B]

Very kind way of putting it. Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Well, usually when you're building a product or whatever. Right. You got to like, you got to like you're building.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You take components. As an engineer, you're designing whatever, you're putting these widgets together and you get a 3D scanner or an iPhone or whatever. Whereas making steaks, it's the opposite. And so that's the way you got to think about lumber. Lumber comes from an organic shape that's grown naturally. And it could be this wonky banana looking thing.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then you get it to a mill. Well, how do you extract as much value as you can?

[B]

I mean, mining similar. It's. You're going after an ore body. And the ore body is not this beautiful cone shaped sometimes. Actually, it is sometimes cone shaped in like northern Canada with the diamond, the diamond mines. But you know, your pit is a cone because that's how you have to build a pit. But your ore body is not a cone. And so you're trying to build the cone to then target as much of the ore body as possible.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And to. To make it economical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're deconstructing the earth essentially to extract powerful that ore body.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Which is highly variable. And the grade varies based on where you're at as well.

[A]

So talking about grade, it's kind of similar. There's a lot of grade. And lumber.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

And so you're trying to have as. As you're trying to minimize defects and maximize value.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With every square thing you make, which.

[B]

They don't do at the Home Depot lumber section, they just take whatever they want, bro.

[A]

There's a lot of deb there too. But yes. Yeah.

[B]

I said to throw some shade Depot buying a straight two by four there is mission impossible.

[A]

And I was just picking up some lumber at my local Lowe's for. I was building a. What were we building recently? I did a laundry project I did in the garage. I built a workbench with my kid, my seven year old boy. He's like using the impact and like we're. Anyways, yeah, we went out to Lowe's. Home Depot was down the street too. But looking at all the boards and like I know where I know these, I know these names, I know what these like grade stamps mean. It's super cool. That's one of my favorite aisles in a store when I go shopping is to go to the lumber area.

[B]

My. My two favorites are, are plumbing, the PVC aisle. Love me some pvc. And then and lumber as well because I would use a lot of that stuff for aquariums. Like the aquarium stuff I used to do and still do. It's all. You just, you build it all yourself which was great. So I was just living at Home Depot. I love Home Depot. Huge fan. But yeah, the plumbing aisle and then.

[A]

The lumber aisle should be a Home Depot influencer.

[B]

Nah, they don't need me. They're doing just fine. They're doing okay. So you end up in this like you're, you're not that old. How old are you?

[A]

So I get the job and I actually went and told the owner of the company privately. I was like, Joey, I'm not even 18 yet. Yeah, is that, is that legal? He goes, you'll be fine. So yeah, basically that was right before I turned 18. I get this job at Joe Scan and like I say first day I'm wiping down these. Like we're getting ready for a trade show and then I'm exposed to this massive industry. Well, let's put it this way. What I define as the wood world is Everything from the seedlings, the baby trees, to forestry to sawmilling, finish product. And there's so many value streams that branch out. Like residuals are turned into paper. You've got pallets and pellets. You've got lumber itself. You got all these cabinets and furniture and flooring and it's a huge world. Right. That's what I call the wood world. And then I guess it's just like I'll use the word, God's providence. I didn't plan it this way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be positioned right in the perfect dead middle of the whole thing. And in a sawmill, like, I mean all the equipment vendors at the show I'm going to be at. Everybody wants to say that without me it's not going to work. But without the eyes of the system, you can't like have this giant machine position it and do all this cool cutting unless you know what you're holding.

[B]

Well, even where you were from a re. I mean, that's one of the most productive forestry areas in the entire world.

[A]

Pacific Northwest.

[B]

Yeah, Pacific Northwest is. I mean, I mean, I know the Southeast too is one of the most productive, if not the most productive.

[A]

I'd say Alabama is like. Well, yes, to answer your question, the west coast is really productive with forest products.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The South, I usually like to refer to Alabama as a Saudi Arabia of wood.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Just from a volume standpoint, I don't think anywhere else in the world beats the South. Southeast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

United States. But their products are usually different. It's a lot of pulp and pellets and they're still making some, I would.

[A]

Say, dimensional lumber wise. I don't have the exact stats in front of you, but my estimation is that two thirds of the United States lumber production is here in the South. From like Texas through the southern states, Northern Florida into the Carolinas. Yeah, that's the, I would say the southern wood basket. There's a lot of mills, a lot of privately owned timberland, etc, which is very unique. And then on the West Coast, I just interviewed Red emerson. He owns 2.4 million acres on the West Coast.

[B]

It's bananas. But the west coast, there's been some dramas out on the west coast too. It's. The west coast is kind of killing itself. It's like, I mean, you probably talked about that with Red. Like California is a great example of what not to do when it comes to forestry. But then even the, the whole, all the owl stuff and then, and then even, I mean, just how much we import, like the tariff stuff, they're like, oh, no tariffs. We can't. We can't tariff lumber because we import so much from Canada. They're, They're. They're such an important trading partner when it comes to critical things like lumber. But it's like I'm sitting there knowing full well it's like, we don't need to import lumber from. From Canada. That's completely. That's completely unnecessary. We have it. We have lumber, like, coming out our ears, man. We've got trees on trees on trees. As much as we want.

[A]

The United States can and should be like, a supplier to the rest of the world with amount of abundance of forest products or forests that we have that could be turned into forest products instead of letting them burn.

[B]

Yeah. Letting them burn. Or then we start to. Yeah, you just mismanage forest. And then you go get the stuff from Canada.

[A]

Trump calls it raking. Raking the forest. It's called forest management.

[B]

But then. Then you're absorbing a lot of Canada's production.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which should be going elsewhere. And so that now elsewhere needs wood. Everybody's still consuming it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now they're going after it in unproductive forests or forests that aren't nearly as productive or in less than savory.

[A]

Ways or not managed and sustainably harvested in all these practices that we have.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And they. They go get it however the hell they want to go get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's so, like, the whole chain, it just degrades the whole thing. And it's like us acting like it's our environment here and their environment there. It's like. No, no, it's just the environment, you dumb. Dumb. It's all one place. And, and it's. And. And then. And. And then the, The. The. The spotted owl thing is crazy.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm kind of on a soapbox right now. But the spotted owl thing's insane because it's like it was.

[A]

Yeah, It's.

[B]

It's been proven to be completely wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The owl thing, bro, Totally wrong. But it just, like, murdered the most important industry to. To this entire very vital region within America.

[A]

Yeah, man. Politics. Yeah. Economies of scale. Like, it's. It's all very interesting to me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Ecology. You mentioned sustainability. Get this. Last night I walked around Broadway and asked a bunch of strangers, like, the basics of. Well, talk to me about, in your daily life, what kind of wood or wood products do you. In a counter or do you use. I'm sure everybody uses toilet paper.

[B]

Yeah. Have you ever pooped? Yes. They but in a lot of. A lot of other countries, they don't.

[A]

Use toilet paper, but they have. They have a home.

[B]

Go to Middle. Middle East.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like. And I'm not a fan of that. Or Indonesia. They didn't have it either.

[A]

You got to buy it or what?

[B]

No, they just use the. Every toilet has a little bidet sprinkler.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know how to use that. I don't. I don't. I need somebody to show me. But it's like, it's not something I'm gonna ask somebody to give me a tutorial about. I'm not looking that up on the Internet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, it's. It's. But yes, in America, that's the gold standard. Before we go down that route, though.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Just to. I just wanted.

[A]

We have a lot of threads. Let's put on the one you want.

[B]

I just want to tie a bow on so you. And it'll go a little fast, but you end up. You end up in, like, the sawmill world from an engineering standpoint.

[A]

As an intern.

[B]

As an intern, yep. But then you. You. You work your way through the wood products business.

[A]

Well, get this. Yeah.

[B]

Like, where do you end up, dude, within the wood products business before you go off and run around doing what you're doing now?

[A]

Okay, so let me. Let me try to piece that together for you real quick. I get in as an intern, I fall in love with the industry. I get exposed to the trade shows, and the owner of the company, for some reason, I guess, liked me and took me to all kinds of cool places around the planet. And then as I became an engineer, I was an engineer on staff.

[B]

And so you get a mechanical engineer.

[A]

Mechanical engineering. So customers reach out, and they're like, hey, we are doing this application. We need to scan like this. They give us our specs, and I'm the one behind the scenes figuring it out, testing it in the shop with my hands, building a scan frame, testing it out. We had all kinds of cool stories there. Like, anyways, and then it's time to go deploy. So we'd go to the field, and not always, but we'd have partners to. We send the devices out, and the integrator partner builds the device or builds the scan frame and gets it going. But sometimes I had the great opportunity to be like, Joey, I want to go out there and see it myself. He's like, go for it. He bought me the boots. And sometimes I'd go with him or others on the team or Just our integrator partners and see the real world. Cool stories all across the world. So like one cool story is Joey and I end up going to Australia Melbourne and New Zealand Rotorua for conventions there. But then also we went and saw some customers. So I got to see New Zealand is a beautiful country, top to bottom. And Joey and I went literally like it was just him and I, we went to the show and then I think before the show started, we went to the southern tip of New Zealand and guess what's there? A little city called Invercargill, a little community. And they have a sawmill. And we were there working on 3D scanners and getting their system going. Anyways, like this, this, this particular scanner device gets installed in all these different sawmills because everybody's automating because everybody's, you know, needs the automation for various reasons. And that took me around the planet as an engineer.

[B]

So you're going to all these mills? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I'm there for the technical reason. I'm solving their problems. Sure. So I get to quickly figure out, okay, well, scanners are used at the front end of the process, like in the log yard. Then you take a stem and you bucket into logs. So from a stem you make logs. Logs are then fed into a primary process. There's scanners at every step. You got scanners that scan and like again make that 3D image of the, of the log. That log moves into what's called the primary breakdown. You got these giant knives spinning. Makes two flat sides on the edge usually. And these high production mills anyways. And then you got, you could have a series of band saws right after that that peel off some peel off. Anyway, I can walk you through the whole process of how you make lumber. There's profilers, there's some really cool companies with amazing innovations that use all this technology. So I guess I tell people now, you could like wake me up in my sleep and I can walk you through how you step by step make lumber. Because as an engineer I was exposed to that and I was there solving their problems, which were fascinating to me to fast forward and kind of type box like you asked. With all that experience, I got a chance to go to the field and then come back to the, to the playground, to the home office in Vancouver. And I'd be like, hey guys, like the customers had these kinds of issues. What if we solved them? What if we made it easier for our integrator partner instead of having four cables coming into this device? And like we were in like A Amish sawmill in Pennsylvania installing 3D laser scanners, which was a. That's a cool story.

[B]

They can use 3D laser scanners.

[A]

That was my question. And so that they all have different.

[B]

Rules, too, depending on where you're at, depending on what they believe in. Like, some can't use rubber tires, others can. It's hard to keep up with, but there's a lot of quirks.

[A]

Yeah, there is. And so as we're arriving. Okay, I'm on my way with an integrator partner, heading to an Amish sawmill in Pennsylvania. As we're, like, on the road, like, heading from the hotel in the morning, I remember I'm asking the guys in the car, I'm like, hold on a second, guys. We're in Pennsylvania. We're heading to an Amish sawmill, and we're going to install 3D laser scanners and a computer package and then all this optimization software on their log, on their carriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, yeah. I'm like, but aren't they Amish?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Aren't they off the grid? They are. I'm like, it doesn't make any sense to me. So as soon as I got there, I find the mill manager, kind of a younger guy, maybe 40s. And I was like. I think his name was Jake. I was like, jake. So we're here installing 3D laser scanners, right? He's like, yep. Like, and you're Amish, right? Yep. I'm like, how. How are you going to be, you know, Isn't it against the rules? He's like, well, we have to compete with the market and the other mills around us. So we're. We're, you know, we're the advanced Amish. I don't remember exactly how he said it, but they were off the grid. Like, there wasn't, like, a power line to the main grid, but there was a diesel generator bigger than this room out back that was running the whole show. So take it as you will. So anyways, my experience from that particular project was fascinating because, like, it was, I think, winter. So I had this, like, Carhartt jacket on and my boots and doubled up on the pants. And I remember this is one of the key things for me as an engineer. I'm in the field. My customers there like a couple of guys installing it. There's a cab, an operator's cabin, not too dissimilar from the operator cabs and the big machines. So it's not that big, and there's a whole bunch of wires coming in for his controls. Right. To run this carriage. Right. You know what a carriage is? It's. Think of it as, like, rails, like a train. And then there's a carriage swings back and forth. And then logs get dropped into the carriage. Giant logs. Could be as tall as you or I. Yeah. Usually not that big. And then there's a giant band saw that, like, slices. Take slices off of that in a very controlled way. And they're trying to, again, increase at the end of the day, make more money out of the existing piece. The same piece of wood could be a law, could be breaking down, broken down in many different ways. You're trying to optimize the value you get. And there's different philosophies there, but there's typically what's called a sawyer, like, the guy who can see it with his eyes and, like, make decisions. But as we know, people get tired, need vacation, whatever. Can make mistakes. Guess what? We're human. And so with these scanning systems, we're helping the operator doesn't necessarily go away, but it's making. It's. It's saying, here's what I found is the best decision. He basically can just, like, watch the system. Like, he has to run the actual machine physically, but it's telling him, like, do this set. This is the optimal path. Whatever, whatever. So anyways, we're there installing this. The carriage is already there. Everything's there. The scan frame is there. We're installing these scanners. So we're putting these scanners, and there's like, a whole row of them. It's kind of a cool thing. And we're running wires. I remember Ethernet, and, you know, Ethernet, if you cut it open, you look, there's a bunch of stuff inside. Yeah, well, so it's cold outside, and we're having to work with our hands to, like, wire up these little fine little cables in this jammed space, making these connectors and, like, you know, connecting them to this, to this cab. I'm thinking, like, why are we doing this in the field? Like, anyways, as an engineer, I'm starting to challenge things that are done. Like, well, that's the way it's always been done. So then I go back to the office, and I'm like, what if? And then eventually, the product that I have a patent on, the newest 3D scanner, has one cable coming out, and it's not. I'm not taking the credit. There was a whole team of us engineers working on it. But I guess my point is just challenge the status quo and say, why do we need four cables. Why do we need the little cables? And why are we doing that step in the field? Let's solve that for our customers so that they can just plug it in and be done with it.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's. I mean, you have 100% more patents.

[A]

Than I do, and I've got one.

[B]

I don't. Yeah, I don't think I'll have one. How did you get into challenging the status quo then of the entire industry?

[A]

Kind of.

[B]

So that is what you do present day.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so here, actually, that's how we met. Absolutely. So actually, I would say the start of what is today the Wood World, the agency that we're building, Koval. I guess there's a me, my personal brand. That's all. What is present day? I never thought about becoming what you would call, what an influencer or whatever they would call it.

[B]

I still can't accept the term, but, yeah, I guess.

[A]

But I'm signing contracts and they say, you're an influencer. And I'm like, if that's what you want to call it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But anyways, yeah. Back to that Pennsylvania project. As an engineer, I was there for the technical work to improve the product, to support the customer. But from a personal perspective, as a kid growing up, I always loved technology. Computers, media, cameras. I've got a. I got a picture of me with this, like, camcorder in the woods. I don't know what I was filming. It might have been us, probably trees. It was trees. No, it was trees. It was us as a family going out to harvesting like. Or taking a Christmas tree home. And like, I look at that picture, I'm like, man, that's like prophecy, like. Anyway, so where was I going with that? One second. The Amish sawmill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So going to this Amish sawmill, I'm like, hey, Joey, I want to shoot some content while I'm there. Because I was parallel to the whole college thing. I was involved in the media team at our church because I was fascinated with cameras. I don't know why. I really loved video. I loved media. I loved. Now we call it like storytelling and all these, like, fancy terms. But I just wanted to shoot videos. And I don't know why I was attracted to that. Actually. I was high school thing. I took a video class in high school because they had to choose an elective. Sure. That's kind of where the start to the media thing happened. And I got plugged into the media church at her to the media. I got plugged into the media team at Our church and early days, it was like tapes, like literally audio recordings on tapes that was helping to make copies of. Then it was CDs, then it was DVDs. And then YouTube came out. So we started uploading content there. And we just kept trying to stay relevant, current with the times in terms of technology. So we stole these robot cameras at the church. So I was there, I was plugged in and I was making content there. So it wasn't foreign to me. So I was like, anyways, going to this Pennsylvania Amish sawmill. I had a couple of cameras with me and I was like, this is a fascinating process. Like a very interesting process. Like, I'm fascinated and I've seen a bunch of them. Why doesn't the world know about this industry? Right?

[B]

Yeah. You'd seen a lot at this point, right? Yeah, like a lot of sawmills, significant.

[A]

I've seen significantly more sins. But at that point I was like, enough to. I was like, why isn't somebody like talking about this industry? And so very naturally I just, I have that video. Even still, I got hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube, on the Joe Scan YouTube channel. But it was this Amish sawmill, as I'm explaining. And there was a carriage head rig there and there was, there were scanners there. And I just like started shooting content. Like I did the technical thing and then I just got the cameras out and was like, got a couple of shots of how it was all running. I get back to the office, I make a little video and people are telling me like, we've never seen the inside of a sawmill in 4K before. And I'm like, really? And I was like, well, for some reason that stuck. And I don't remember who said it or where the context that was said, but I thought that was interesting. So I thought, well, somebody's got a. There's big fancy companies all around in our industry. Somebody's got to take care of that problem, right? Like, I'm not worried about it. I'm here like making 3D scanners and better scanning technologies. Probably that's where the inception, conception point of this whole project came from, was just the fact that there was really hard working, really good salt of the earth people who have convictions that really align with my own, that do amazing things and provide a very important. They're doing a very important job for all of us that take living in a home and walls and your studs for granted or paper, paper products in the bathroom, like the hand towels, et cetera. So nobody really sees this industry for what? The way I see it. And so I'm getting this very unique opportunity to see it from the inside.

[B]

When did you go full time with that?

[A]

That's the story in its own. That was 2017. I got forced to go into it on my own.

[B]

So you've been doing it. It's been quite a while now then. Well, truthfully speaking, time I got started.

[A]

Yeah. But truthfully speaking, I didn't know what I was doing in business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I screwed up. I ran out of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, ah, screw this. I'm gonna go back to work. So I. Well, here, I'll paint the picture quickly. I'm working in this technology company. We're building these 3D scanners. I'm getting involved in engineering. We're building the next generation of the product. We're scaling up. The company, like, buys a new. Building bigger. We're expanding. I'm going to all these shows. I love it and I genuinely enjoy it.

[B]

You're probably making pretty good money for your 20s, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I had to guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was more than enough. And a very, very gracious benefits package that came along with that with, like, 401k and, like it. Joey took care of his people. Yeah. So as I'm an engineer, I go to these trade shows. I meet this guy named Brian Fair. And at a trade show, you're wearing name badges. Right. So this is probably, I'd say, September of 2016, we're at another trade show. It was in Portland, Oregon. And I'm walking around, and I've got a lot of friends in the industry at this point. Well, some people I know, some I don't. And I'm this young guy. So I'm walking around, I've got a name badge. And I remember seeing a guy named Sean who now has an amazing company called RPM Real Performance Machinery. They're doing incredible things now. But Sean is standing there talking to someone else. I don't know who he is. And it's a cool story because thinking about it, that was another really big moment, catalyst to the story that you're asking about. So I approach Sean and he's standing next to a gentleman who. Yeah, I didn't know. I don't know who he was. I just remember his outfit wasn't like, super glamorous. It wasn't like. I didn't know. I had no idea who he was, but. And I'm literally here, wanted to say hello to Sean and wanted to engage in a conversation, but they're Already talking. So I just come standing around and. And then this guy that I don't know looks at my badge and says, Alexis. Or he says. So the guy. I don't know his name. Sorry. The guy I don't know his name is Brian. And he looks at my badge and says, kovalev. My last name is Kovalev. And I'm like, yeah. And he says, do you like hockey? And I'm like, yeah. And I picked up on the Alexei Kovalev thing I told you about earlier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, yeah, my dad's Alexei Kovalev. And his jaw just about hit the floor, dude. He's like, what are you doing here? Like, shouldn't he be out, like, practicing hockey or whatever? I let him roll with it for a couple of seconds, and then I'm like, but my dad's. My dad's Alexei Kovalev, but it's not the guy you're thinking about. And he just about explodes laughing, and he's just having a good old time. And he thought that was hilarious. And I still have no idea who this guy is. And he says. And then Sean, in that conversation says, hey, Vadim, Brian here was asking me about something about scanning and should we do a lineal system or a transverse? And I'm like, well, I gave him my two cents, but I'm like, who am I? If you really want to talk to the guys who know a lot about it, like, there's their booth. And I pointed him in that direction. And what else? Oh, and Brian is like, hey, we need young people. He picked up on the fact that I knew about my stuff about scanners and the problem he was trying to solve in one of the mills. And he goes, if you like hockey and, like, we need people like you, like, we'd love to, like, give you a job or we need. He said something about recruiting, trying to recruit me to come work for him. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm good. I'm good. Like, I'm really happy with this engineering company I'm working at. And so, like, he says, oh, well, if you like hockey, come up to Canada, to Vancouver, and we'll watch hockey together. And I'm like, I don't know you. I don't need a job. Thank you, but no, thank you. Those are the guys that you want to go talk to. I'm trying to get a. Trying to get with Sean. It kind of, like, blew him off and joked around some. And I remember he kind of, like, walked away. But as he's walking away. He's still saying, hey, we need young people. Would love to, you know, talk with you. I'm like, yeah, yeah, thank you so much. And. And then. And then I look over and Sean's this really big, burly guy. He's looking at me. He's like, do you have any idea who that was? And I'm like, brian. That's how he introduced himself. He's like, yeah, turn around. You see this? The biggest booth on this trade show floor is a company called Bid Group. He's the B in Bid. Like, he owns the show. He's like, the biggest baller on the show floor right now. I'm like. Like, that guy. I was like. And then I got all kind of, like, scared because I'm like, well, I should have probably said other things, and I probably should have engaged with him or whatever.

[B]

Well, I guess I'm gonna go watch hockey.

[A]

And that's what I thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then my. And then my networking kind of superpowers or whatever, my brain's thinking about, like, how do I get back engaged with that conversation? Pick him up and take him up on his offer. Eventually I did. I went up to bc, and that was in the wintertime. Took some time off and went up for a weekend and watch hockey with him. He ends up being a really interesting and still is friend, mentor, advisor, customer. Like, anyways, this whole story unfolds where he says, I'm doing something that's never been done in this industry. I'll tell you what he says, you know, spread your wings and fly here for a minute. And I was like, what are you talking about? Because I'm super satisfied. It's an engineering job. I don't need another job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm up there, literally, to watch a hockey game. And we stay in, like, I've never seen lavish like this. And we're in his, like, penthouse. And it was cool, dude. I was like, who are you? Right? And so he's like, listen, I always need young people. You seem like you're sharp, you're bright. You know this stuff about our industry. We'll give you an amazing opportunity. Take this job offer from us. And he, like, in that. In that visit to Canada, he gives me a job offer. And I'm like, no, I appreciate the hockey game, but I'm not manipulating anything. I'm just literally saying I'm not interested. Which I guess bugs a guy like that when nobody says no to you. Like, what do you mean? You don't. You're not interested. I'm like, well, no, I'm happy over here and I got everything I need. I'm married, my wife's with me and we're here together watching this hockey game. So we're, I thought we're going to be friends and anyways. And he's like, listen, I want to give you an opportunity to do something. Come alongside me and we're doing some cool stuff together. And I'm like, cool? What do you, what do you mean? Like, I'm an engineer. You need another engineer. Or he asks me what can you do? And I'm like, I'm an engineer. He's like, dude, I got hundreds of engineers working for me. I don't need another engineer. What else can you do? And I'm like, I like to shoot content. I shot some videos. He's like, you're gonna make me a whole library of videos. And I'm like, sounds fun. Why? And I didn't really. I'm piecing this together now, Aaron. But like back then I had no idea what was going on. So his. I'll just fast forward, right? So his Brian, Fair, if you google him, is a really big player in the sawmill industry in North America. He builds now this is, this is known, but back then I didn't know or anybody really didn't know, but he saw a gap in the marketplace. Genius move. His father is up from there from Canada, like Prince George Vanderhoof area. Really cool story. He gets involved in building sawmill equipment in his early days with his dad. BID stood for Brian, Ike and David. And Ike. The father dies, David has health issues, so Brian is forced to take over the business and they're doing construction and welding. He's a welder himself and so it's fascinating how his stories unfold. But the genius move is such if you're going to make an investment regardless of what it is, especially high level investment like buying or building a sawmill, you need to, you need to have some key things locked in contracts, right? You need to know how much is it going to cost me. You need to know the production output of whatever things you're going to be investing in and a schedule like what's the timeline that you're going to deliver? And you get. And guaranteeing those three things was his genius move. So basically the. So Brian is on his path to build turnkey sawmills. Never been done before in our industry. Typically if somebody wants to build a sawmill or upgrade their equipment, they go to an equipment show and they're like, hey, I need a new debarker. And then you go to that vendor, you make a deal, and you buy yourself a debarker. Then you got to figure out a contractor who's going to rip out the old one, put in the new one. But what if you want to build a new mill? If you want to build a new mill, you got to talk to a whole bunch of vendors, you piece together a bunch of little deals together. Not little. I mean, these are millions of dollars. But I'm saying in the grand scheme of things, you're piecing together every piece of the puzzle. You got to hire a contractor who's going to oversee all of those contractors. But you don't get those three things locked in. So the turnkey approach is genius because he's selling a group of investors or an investor privately, private company or public, and selling them on. I'll build you a mill. It will be running in less than a year. That's what we're going to get into right now. But I'll build you a mill. It'll be on time, on budget, and with this production locked in. And so that's. That was the name of his game.

[B]

Yeah. So he. He goes and builds mills, makes a bunch of money. Do you end up going to work for him then?

[A]

Yeah, I took him up on that opportunity in 2017.

[B]

And so that's when you got that in doing content, not engineering.

[A]

Correct. So he's like, listen, I'm gonna buy you what cameras do you need? And I'm like, here, I'll send you a list. We buy the list of equipment. It was like a drone, a Sony camera, a couple other knickknacks, and I'm out there shooting the content for his company to tell the story of it was Two Rivers Lumber and Viewer in Newton, Mississippi, were the two companies that I was like, tasked with right away because they were basically getting going on construction. And so they're greenfield, which means, like, here's a big field, brand new, and in less than a year, there's a whole running operation. And he was the one who kind of did it and built his reputation all around. Brian Fair is the guy who builds turnkey sawmills in the United States.

[B]

So when do you go off and do it on your own, then?

[A]

Well, I'm working there in the company, in the corporate structure, but I wanted to make sure that I achieved the goals that he set out to achieve. And it wasn't possible in the corporate structure. So for various reasons, long story short, he says, go start your own company and I'll hire you directly.

[B]

I see. And what year was that?

[A]

2017. Fall time.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay. So it really was. So you were, you weren't there very long? No, that's kind of what I did with, with hcss. It was like Mike Ryden, who's also, he's done very well for himself in construction software. He brought me in alongside Dan to do the I Build America stuff. And then I was like, I can't do this here. I need to go do this elsewhere. And then I Build America ended up paying me like a small contract afterwards to help them do stuff. And then I kind of just went off and did my own thing because they ended up winding it down. But it wasn't all that different. It was like this one guy that just had this like, we need to promote the industry. It was less for them. It was, it wasn't about what they did at all because they had a whole marketing department. It was all about let's just promote our customers. Which was super cool. And then I saw that as the opportunity. I was like, well, I need to go do this on my own without the boundaries. Which is harder, but a lot more freedom. The. I've, I've, I've always been interested in what you're doing too. Because the wood products world has a huge problem. It is a giant problem. And I don't think they totally are accepting of that quite yet. No mining. I say that because mining's the same way. Like they're, they're, they're almost ignoring the problem in a way.

[A]

Trying to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it's like, like there's, you know that you're, you only have so much sand in the hourglass here and it's, it's starting to get pretty, pretty slim.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Up top there. And so I mean it's, it's, it's. I think we've, we started talking because it's, it's the similar, it's a similar problem that is. Listen, this, this is an essential industry that everybody needs to live their daily lives to be comfortable. Like to live in a house, to have toilet paper, to get anything ordered from the Internet. This is really important to day, to day life.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But no one knows about it and that's our fault. And we can sit here and then. Not only that, but no one knows about it. And we have been full on assaulted by environmental groups that start at the school level from a. You know, you learn about deforestation as like a kindergartner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean like right away yeah. They're teaching you like, cutting down a tree is the greatest sin you can commit to planet Earth like that. For whatever reason, trees to us are just like the no go thing. You've got to save the trees. And all the trees are getting cut down and the place is. It's going to hell in a hand basket. Like, it's, it's dire. This is, this is, this is terrible stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then you start to learn like, well, the United States, we did screw up the whole forestry thing for quite a while. I mean, like, especially west coast, we're like, let's just, let's just go after all the big trees and murder the big trees. Let's murder everything. So, like, almost the entirety of old growth is gone, you know, past transgressions. But then we said, well, let's save what's left, thank goodness. And then let's also do this more responsibly. And since, you know, tree growth has been positive for four decades.

[A]

Yeah. There's more trees today in America than.

[B]

There was 100 years ago, which is crazy. It's crazy.

[A]

And for every one that we cut. I thought it was three. I just got corrected. Five are planted for every one that's cut down.

[B]

But this, it's, it's, it's similar to mining. Like, the mining leaders are like, well, we don't really want to deal with these environmentalists. So what we're going to do is we're just going to go over here in our hole.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're going to stick to our hole.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're not going to talk about it. We're going to hide back here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it should be fine. Right. Like, we're not.

[A]

Keep out of the limelight.

[B]

Yeah. We're just going to keep away. We're not going to talk about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're not going to engage with them and it'll be no problem. Well, it's ended up becoming a huge problem. Yeah. Because you just like, you, you know, you surrender the entire narrative to these other groups that can take it and wield it in some pretty potent ways. California being a great example of how it's been wielded to just a dramatic detriment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Northwest, Pacific Northwest. I mean, it's, there's still a lot of, a lot of logging, but boy, has it been decimated in a lot of ways because of largely the narrative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And largely these environmental groups wielding that narrative in whatever ways they want to. And mining is the same way. It's like it's just, it's, it's, it's you, you know enough to like see the headlines and know it's complete nonsense. Like, well, I know we could produce everything here. Like, I know production here is not a problem. Sustainable production.

[A]

Sustainable production. And that's.

[B]

It's in our best interest. Like, we should produce what we consume. Yep, if we can. And we can. Because the United States is blessed with more natural resources than just about any country in the entire world. Yeah, we've got everything here, which is crazy. Yeah, we've got oil and gas, we've got wood, we've got every mineral you need. We've got everything. But we don't like to touch it. We like to go get it from elsewhere because we can.

[A]

So you're, you're touching on something that I've thought a lot about. And it's your whole, whole world. It's beyond wood, it's beyond trees, is beyond dirt.

[B]

It's a whole built environment.

[A]

Listen, if I could. I'm going to show you a passage. If we go back to my lion, if we go back to Genesis, if we go to Genesis, chapter one, the first chapter of the Bible. And I don't really care where people stand in terms of their own faith, but I think this aligns with how you get to this point. What I'm about to share. It's deeper for me than just a business. Deeper to me personally than I'm trying to make a dollar. I think all that comes and it's all secondary. But like truthfully, deeply, for me personally, I go back and you remember when you introduced me to the Olympic Logging conference, they offered you to speak there and I took that gig. So thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

So I went up there and I'm on stage in front of the leaders of the logging part of the logging industry in the Pacific Northwest.

[B]

It's a big group, it's a couple.

[A]

Hundred people in the audience and I'm invited as keynote speaker. And this was exactly the passage. So whether it's in a one on one conversation or in front of a stage, I use this verse to explain everything that you just talked about, that we just talked about. And I have specific words I'm using to be able to explain it. So let me read the passage and then kind of come back to it. So Genesis 1:27 reads, so God created man in his own image. In the image of God, he created him. Male and female, he created them. And here's the key. And God blessed them and said to them, be Fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. And God said, behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth and every tree with seed in its fruit, and you should have them for food. And it just keeps going on and on. But in verse 28, there's a word, subdue. So we, the people put on this planet are given an instruction, go subdue it. So what does that mean? And I tell people, right off stage, I asked that question, I was like, what does that mean to subdue? What do you think subdue means?

[B]

I mean, it can, it can go a bunch of different ways.

[A]

It does go a bunch of different ways.

[B]

I think in natural resources though, it's utilize effectively, be good stewards. Yes, yeah.

[A]

So but before I explain what it is, I want to explain what it does not mean. And so I've been to, for example, the Congo in Africa last August, talking to people there. There is, there is extremes of everything. Right. So when we talk about subdue, there's two crazy extremes that I observed as I crossed the planet back and forth. In Africa, it actually had to do more with mining. But it's natural resources.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

There's exploitation. Keyword exploitation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I say that's one far extreme of subdue is to exploit. We're not called to. I don't believe we're called to subdue, meaning exploit. And there's a other extreme, which I would say is idolizing the natural resource. And so in Africa you've got crazy things happening where people, other countries come in, dig out the valuables, throw some pennies at the farmers that own the land. Mining, for example, and extract all the good stuff and run away with it. Yeah, I feel like that's exploitation. We should not be doing that. Same thing applies around the world. People mention Amazon.

[B]

We consume it, but we're the consumer. But that's beside the point. Or when we don't talk about that.

[A]

When I walked around Nashville on Broadway, people are talking about deforestation and I'm like, where is it happening? Oh, in the Amazon rainforest. Okay, well, I've not been to the Amazon rainforest. I do believe there are forms of exploitation happening around the planet, whether it's in forestry or others. So that's not what we're called to do do. We're not called to exploit. And the other extreme that I've then figured out for myself as I Looked at that, I'm like, hold on a second. What goes both ways. The other extreme is if we speak about forestry in California, for example, to oversimplify it, let's lock up the gate to the forest and let mother Nature take care of the forest. We're going to stay out of it. We're not going to cut it, we're not going to do anything with it. Let nature do nature. Guess what happens.

[B]

But that's, but the, but that's, but that's the people in San Francisco and Sacramento that live in the cities, they're gonna make that decision for the people that actually live within the forest.

[A]

Brother.

[B]

Which, which I think is the great irony of it. It's, it's like I've never seen. The people that care most about the forest are the people that depend on the forest to feed their families is what I've experienced. Like the people, the loggers that are closest to the forest, they work in the forest, they're there every day. They feed their families at the forest. They provide for society with the forest. They're the ones that care about it. Because if they go clear cut the whole place well, then there's no more to harvest. They have to like replanting is just as important as cutting 100%. That's the future.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Even from a capitalistic perspective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's in your best interest to manage the forests.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the United States. It sad, it really, really saddens me what's going on in British Columbia right now. I have a lot of friends in B.C. and Canada. I know families and people that live kind of like in rural places in B.C. for example. And think about it like this. Imagine a sawmill. They're usually in a rural place and they're making something that's a natural resource into something that's very valuable and shipping it. Right. So they're making a natural resource, converting it into economic value. And so with regulation and policy that's happening in B.C. or in Canada right now, they're preventing fiber supply getting to those mills, which means they're squashing the whole industry. Guess how a little town operates. How do you get people to spend money in a grocery store? Where do they get that money? They're probably working at a little sawmill.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean BC is similar to California in that Vancouver runs BC and most everybody in BC is not happy about that. They resent Vancouver for sure. Vancouver resents everybody else that's not in Vancouver. It's really weird. It's. I mean, it's Very similar to California. It's similar to any. Yeah. I mean Alberta really resents Vancouver in general which is really funny just how much they go out of the way they talk about it. But it's the same thing. It's just like this, it's this self inflicted pain for no good reason. Like it's just. But like going back to what you're doing and what, what I'm doing is there's a. So to pretend like you're just a victim is terrible because it removes all agency. And so it doesn't just say, well I've had no part in this happening but I have no part in changing this going forward. But a lot of the industry to me is just this victim. Oh we're just, we're just these victims. And it's a lot of pandering to then these groups that are completely unreasonable on the outside and it's a lot of like poor me. Whereas it's like to me. And maybe it has just happened to mining or natural resources, forestry. But it's like, well who else is gonna, who else is gonna. Like we're toying with the fabric of society here. Like this isn't, this isn't money. It is, but this is the fabric of society we're playing with right now. So that's, that's what's at stake. Like the future. And so. Okay, congratulations Mr. So and so. Mr. Mining so and so or wood so and so you've made a shitload of money, you're good to go. Great. But what about the rest of us? What about your kids? What about their kids? Like what about the whole future here? What about the United States of America? What happens then? Like you're not around for all that much longer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then what? Well, we need resources, we need infrastructure. We need to be good stewards of our society. It's, it's big picture. And so, so these, these, these people, they've done well. But it's like we can't just sit around and blame people. We've got to do something about this because no one else is going to do anything about this. Like we've just been sitting around waiting for somebody else to stand up for us. And it's all, it's almost, I get it. Like it's coming from a genuine place but it's almost frustrating when people are like they're thanking me for what I'm doing because it's like I'm just one guy. Like I'm not going to go figure this out for, for everybody. Are you kidding me? No way. No way. I'll do my part, but we need everybody to do their part. If you don't do your part, it's not going to change. And if it doesn't change, we are fucked, for lack of a better term. Like, congratulations again, You've made your money, you're good to go. But we were. We're in big trouble. Like, this is. And that's. This is what, you know, gets me frustrated and fires. Fires it up. Because it's like, can you just get out of your way? Can you get out of the way? Get out of your own way. Like we're playing with something that shouldn't be played with. Like, this is. This is not this little game over here. Like, this is the future we're playing with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And it pisses me off because it's like, I'm 30. I've got a lot more of this to deal with than you do. And honestly, I've got to clean up some of your mess, like, and I've got to get on with it. And you're still in the way of that. Can you at least just not be in the way? Yeah, like, you don't even need to help. I don't even need anything other than you just not obstructing. Like, that's it. But yet you're still obstructing. And that's what drives me nuts.

[A]

Your own industry people obstructing you.

[B]

The establishment, the gatekeepers, those that have been around a while. And it's like, I appreciate what you've done, but at least just don't get in the way. Like, this.

[A]

Is this because I'm curious how, how do your people get in the way? Because I have a lot of similar experiences in my industry, in our wood world.

[B]

I mean, just simply put, like, no, you can't access. We don't. We don't want to have you. It's like, okay, like, why? Well, it's against our corporate policy. Against your corporate. Against your corporate policy? Like, the fuck does that even mean? Like, it's just against your corporate policy. Like, that's. That. That one drives me nuts because it's just complete nonsense from.

[A]

Well, I kind of get it, right? Like, we're doing. We're dealing with really heavy industry and they don't want somebody to see something on the Internet and then be held them liable for an OSHA violation or something like that.

[B]

I get it. But one, I can't find a single example of somebody actually getting an OSHA violation on Something on the Internet, if I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[A]

I'll show you one to.

[B]

You haven't found an example of that. It's really hard to cite somebody based off a photo or video on the Internet, but. But two, it's like they're at the table with me. I'm not there to go catch them on anything. Like, you can approve everything I do.

[A]

I want to help you.

[B]

Yeah. You have your lawyers look at it like. Like, I'm here to help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you still don't want that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then you're gonna go complain about how you can't find workforce and how you can't get permits and how everybody hates you. Because they do. They hate you. They hate you when they. They need you, but they hate you. And that's your fault.

[A]

The general public, you're saying, yes.

[B]

Yes. And it just. It's. It's. It's such a shame. It's. It's so sad. And I'm still very optimistic. Like, again, I'm young, so all I have to do is outweigh these people because it's like, your retirement date is a lot sooner than mine. And once you go now. All right, let's go. And this already worked with companies. It's like, one guy retires, and you're.

[A]

Like, yes, change of the guard.

[B]

Ralph is gone. Like, see you, Ralph. I hope you have a great retirement.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you. Now we can get on with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And it's like, yes, this is great. And. And. And I. I. Again, it's like, I respect. I respect what has got us here and who has got us here and how much effort they've put in to get us here. But the world is changing. The world is changing very quickly, and we are toying with something right now that just should not be toyed with. And that's what keeps me up at night.

[A]

Agreed. And that's. I'm right there with you.

[B]

Yeah. I think we're. We're fighting that battle from two different perspectives, but it's the exact same battle.

[A]

Yeah. Which is why it's really.

[B]

Sources.

[A]

Yep. Yep. And I'm really aligned with what you're doing and getting to the point where you're reaching a lot of people and sharing that message genuinely to show them. Last week, I was in one of these industry groups. In our industry. Right. There was like a. It was called slma. We got together, and I have some content there where I was shooting. Content with the younger folks. Now change of the guard is happening. Like you talking about? And so I'm shooting content and this, this guy, Vince Jordan, younger fella, his family has a large sawmill, a Jordan Lumber company. And I'm asking him really straightforward questions. I'm like, so what can young people make in this industry? And it's bananas, dude. In a rural place in the south, to be able to make a hundred plus thousand dollars a year to be in the trade. And they're going to help you or other companies in our industry are building. I was with a gentleman named Finley McCrae. Mr. Finley owns a handful of sawmills involved in CLT mass timber production in the South. And I'm asking him what his challenges are. And it's people, right? And so I'm saying, well, how do you go about solving it? And different people are doing different things. He bought an elementary school building that was vacant and they're converting it into a training center. And I'm like, why are you doing that? Can I go see it? And the general manager, Rod took me over there. It's incredible to see they're taking steps. But that's like local. Like that's for five companies. But the problem is much bigger and it's at scale.

[B]

Well, it's a macro problem. And even then like the workforce is demoralized because they're told that they're the bad guys. Like when you're made into the bad guy, like you have society on your back and yet you're demonized for it. What's the point? Like me is, you know, If I'm a 20 something like, why would I want to get into a career like that? That sucks. Like that, that, that sucks. And, and there's this, like, there's this demoralization of the whole industry as a result. And you can feel it. I mean I, I'm sure there's this immense sense of pride.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you can, you can feel it. Like I go out to these mining sites, especially in the states.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

A lot of them are pretty miserable. I've been to some great ones too, like shout out to naca, North American Coal Class Acts, Rio Tinto, Kennecott. Like, there's some great ones.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But then there's there's also these ones. It's like, who died? Like, why. Why is everybody so bummed out to be here? And one, I think it's the worst schedule. The work schedules sometimes crazy. But two, yeah, I think there's just this been this overall demoralization of these industries as well. If you're in the resource industries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I hope you are, you are, you are the reason for global warming.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You are killing the trees, you are killing the animals.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're, you're, you're, you're destroying everything.

[A]

So. And the way I explain it to my own industry right now is listen, you've got employees. How do you get employees today? They're like word of mouth. Great. Well, let's play this out. Imagine your best employee that works the debarker, literally a machine that rips the bark off the log at the front end of a sawmill. Okay. He goes home for the weekend and they're doing a barbecue. He's going to meet somebody at that barbecue who doesn't know him. What's the first question, Aaron, that they're going to ask him?

[B]

What do you do?

[A]

I rip the bark off of trees. How sexy does that sound?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You see what I'm saying with that?

[B]

So you kill the environment.

[A]

Oh no. Well, how are your kids doing? And they'll kind of like run into another topic to kind of dodge it. And I sh. And I'm saying you, Mr. Sawmill Owner, understand very well how that is critical to the person that we're talking to has a roof over their head because of the lumber that's used to build the trusses that hold the frickin roof over his head. And the bed that he wakes up in, Guess what the frame of the bed is made of. Oh, wood. Oh, guess what, you're gonna go take a number two and guess what you're gonna use there. Toilet paper. Oh, guess what, you just ordered stuff from Amazon. Guess what it's gonna show up in at the front door. At your front door. And a cardboard box. Guess where that came from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And on and on and on and on. And that gets me wound up because my point is like arm your people, your people with a story about your company so that they understand how they play a key role in this company. That's company culture. And how your company plays a key role in sustainable wood products manufacturing in your region that provides all these necessary things for the person he's talking to. And imagine the shift in the conversation if the person that's asking, what do you do? Receives a. Do you like living in your house? Do you enjoy toilet paper?

[B]

Yeah. And even just give, like, give them the basic facts because it's not their fault. Like that misunderstanding. You just can't blame people for that misunderstanding. I'm telling you, the propaganda, the anti, like the tree propaganda arm of the world is really strong. I mean, I don't know what it is about it, but every time I put a, a tree getting felled in whatever capacity, whenever way on the Internet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guaranteed so many comments about how they're killing the planet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like clockwork. And I'm just sitting there, I'm like, you know, trees grow back, right? Like, you can, you can plant them and then they turn into new trees.

[A]

And the new trees absorb carbon faster than the old trees.

[B]

Well, there is that. Yes. Yeah. But we're not going to talk about that because you're killing the trees. Like, it's just such a silly argument that's so easy to unravel, like, with basic information, really basic information. But yeah, I, I, I, I tell people, it's like, I'm not even. You don't even need to be on social media. It's just like, just tell the damn story about the industry and give your people that information so that they can tell the story, too. Like, there's a lot of people working within wood within the United States. It's still a very big industry. If all those people have a cohesive narrative, that's how you win. But until that happens, no way. No way. And it's, and it's, you have to change it. Big picture. Because even these political wins, the political wins change. They change.

[A]

They do.

[B]

There's a new administration sometimes every four years.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So you can, I mean, there's like, big wins right now in resources and Minerals. This is, this is what happened. And it's like I'm sitting here, I'm like, well, it's, that's probably not even that big of a win because. So now it goes over here. There was a, there was a mine. It had its permit squared away. New administration comes in. Fuck you and your permits. They're like, well, what do you mean? Like, you don't have any more. And what are you going to do about it? Are you going to sue us? Okay, we'll see you in court. So they go to court, whatever. This and this and that. Federal government's like, you're not going to get the federal government to do whatever they don't want to do. New administration comes in four years later. Hey, how about those permits? You want those? Yeah, we'd love those. All right, cool. And then what happens, you know, four years, and then state governments are even worse. Like, state governments are ebbing and flowing all the time, and then different counties. Like, there's, there's all kinds of complexities there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The only way to battle against that is with a Like a long standing narrative. That's how you do it. There's just, there's no other way. You can go spend all this money with these politicians. They're not that good for all that long. Like, it's not, that's not a sustainable strategy. And I, you know, is lobbying. Can lobbying create some kind of change? Sure, potentially. I don't know. I'm not a big believer in it, but I don't think that's like the game plan and that to me, like, you know, like the resource industries is like, that's the game plan. We're gonna, we're gonna go to Washington. Like, wow, how's that been going for you? Like, the industry's been getting murdered for decades now. How's that going for you? Like, is that, is it working out? Like, I don't see resources flourishing here. I don't see us. I don't see everything booming. So is that, is it working out? I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe I'm just a dumb dumb. Which is possible. I am a dum dum.

[A]

But.

[B]

It'S just. Yeah, it's a shame.

[A]

One thing, I want to make a comment back a couple thoughts ago. Well, first of all, on the current thing, if there's so much misconceptions about our industry, and there's plenty about our industry, probably about yours as well, I feel like that's. We can call that darkness and as the Bible says, we can shine a light to clarify things. And genuinely from the stage, one on one, I keep saying and preaching that message of let's be more transparent as an industry rather than less transparent. Because all we have to do is show the world what we actually are doing, which is all above board and perfectly legal. And with the permits and like, we're doing good forestry and we're harvesting sustainably and we're doing good things. I'm talking about the US right now, places that I've been to. And that's kind of one thought. There is like, let's shine. Let's be the light to shine a light on. Just. It's not that I'm creating a narrative or taking aside. No, I'm just trying to like, go out there and be like, can you tell me your story?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you doing? And I've never had Aaron, people say to me, well, we can't go to. Back to this corner. Make sure you don't keep. Keep all these things, keep all your cameras and crews away from this part of our operation because we're doing something Wrong back there. I've never heard that before. Like, so it's like, well, what are you hiding then? To your point? Oh, we don't want the competitors to see us. Your competitors go to the trade shows and see exactly the same machines that you have.

[B]

It's that sometimes it's really. We're scared of the lawyers. It's like, okay, so we're going to go. This is dramatic, but it is what's happening. We're going to go jeopardize the future of our country because of the lawyers. That's what we're going to do.

[A]

What about the lawyers?

[B]

The lawyers are going to come get you.

[A]

For what?

[B]

They're going to get you.

[A]

Is that the boogeyman?

[B]

Yeah, they're gonna get. They're gonna get you. They're coming for you. If we go put that stuff out there, the lawyers are gonna get us. Yeah, they're coming. And the environmental groups do weaponize law. Big time. Big time. They love that, Don. They love that the lawfare thing is legit and it will happen for sure. But again, like, I don't see another option. And like you said, it is above board. I mean, even, like some of the mining and the reclamation I get to see is spectacular.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I had no idea. Like, I thought you guys. I thought you guys just destroyed everything, but even I'm like, wow, this is fantastic.

[A]

Right?

[B]

This is really good stuff.

[A]

Yeah. One more comment. The other thought I had you mentioned that I've got. I've. I've thought about this enough and journaled about it and prayed about it and talked to enough people where I feel like I'm putting together, trying to simplify what we talked about earlier where you were saying the deforestation topic is taught from an early age. And I feel like the way I would explain it in simple terms is I've identified a logical fallacy in the general public, which is this. If you've got a tree, it's a beautiful tree. It provides shade, it's giving us oxygen. What else benefits of a tree? It's beautiful. You go camping and enjoy the forests. Right. And so on and on and on. There's so many great things about a tree that's alive, and I love those things, too. I enjoy taking the kids to the park and go camping, etc. Okay, so now if we fell this tree, the logical fallacy is those things are no longer true. Therefore, felling of trees is a bad thing. And they don't even consider that there's going to be, like, I was In. There's a new sawmill in California, Sequoia Forest Products on coastal California. And they're going to be cutting redwood for fences. Very cool, modern operation, brand new technology getting installed. And it's running already, making redwood fencing. And you might think, like, are they harvesting those big sequoia trees? Well, no, they aren't. If you really dig into it. It's a very amazing process. And I've got this guy on my podcast once. There's PhDs in our industry that are just studying like seeds or seedlings. And so much thought and effort is going into how do we plant, how do we harvest, how do we.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do we maximize the benefit for the environment? These people are part of our industry. I would like to say that our industry, we are the environmentalists. We've got the PhDs that are studying, we've got the forest practices and the management.

[B]

Well, there's oftentimes more environmental research within. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Than anywhere else.

[A]

Yeah. And so all these groups that are like trying to block a timber sale because they'll take you to court and they'll say whatever, and there's a law lawfare going on or whatever you called it. So, yeah, that is happening. But it's like, let's just shine a light on this whole, like, I guess it's maybe hard for people to like, zoom out from, like they're stuck right here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, just let's go a level higher or let's go to the 30 foot thousand bird's eye view and look at this whole thing, like, holistically.

[B]

And I'm happy to be wrong on this solution too. I've never said this is the solution, but it's like, show me a better one. I'll go along with it until you show me a better one. This is the play I'm gonna run.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Telling the story, showing people what that goes on. It's like, it's not that simple, but it is kind of that simple.

[A]

So how do you do it practically? How are you helping the dirt industry solve their issues today?

[B]

By the camera with a podcast.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But it was good. This is the first time we've podcasted. We've talked a bunch, but first time we've actually.

[A]

Yeah. This is incredible. Thank you for the space time invitation.

[B]

Thanks for coming.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And hopefully we see out in the woods one of these days.

[A]

Let's do it. I want to go to one of your cool operations as well. Yeah.

[B]

I'll show you some dirt. You can see some woods. There's actually the one that has both is North American coal in Mississippi.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because a lot of it's all pine there. So a lot of their reclaimed land is cultivated pine. Because they have to prove that the land when they reclaim it, once they mine the coal and following reclamation, they can, they have to prove that the land is as good, if not better, more productive than what was there. And so they grow things on it to prove its productivity makes sense. And so they grow a lot of pine. I love these beautiful pine stands that have been growing for quite a while now because the land was mined decades ago. It's all, it's all on.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it's beautiful.

[A]

I'd love to see it.

[B]

Beautiful. Well, maybe one day. Until then, they. Thanks for coming by and thank you.

[A]

So much for having me.