Who’s Actually Building America? w/ Jim Vinoski (DT 440)

Summary

Dirt Talk by BuildWitt

Episode DT 440: Who’s Actually Building America?

Guest: Jim Vinoski, Co-Founder, FireSteel Industrial Solutions
Host: Aaron Witt
Date: May 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid, wide-ranging conversation, host Aaron Witt sits down with Jim Vinoski—a vocal advocate for American manufacturing, Forbes contributor, and host of the Manufacturing Talks podcast—to explore the realities and future of U.S. industry. With his new book on the horizon, “American: 22 Tales of Integrity, Ingenuity and Modest Heroes who Built a Nation,” Vinoski brings deep experience from his years in food manufacturing, journalism, and consulting to this discussion. Together, they confront popular misconceptions about the state of American manufacturing, analyze policy missteps, and examine the essential role of energy and culture in the nation’s industrial foundation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Writing and Communication Journey

• The Discovery of Writing: Both Aaron and Jim discuss the joys and frustrations of the writing process and how story-telling is central to understanding how the world works.
  • "The writing process is frustrating, but also really enjoyable...there's discovery in it, creativity, there's problem solving..." — Aaron (00:51)
• First-Person Expertise in Reporting: Jim recounts how Forbes initially recruited industry insiders for authentic perspectives but drifted toward standardized journalism, reducing the impact of firsthand accounts.
  • “They brought you in for your experience. Not allowing me to share it. It’s like, man...” — Jim (03:31)

2. Jim’s Background: Manufacturing and Writing

• From Plant Floor to Forbes: Jim shares his career path: engineering, managing U.S. food plants, and a lifelong passion for writing.
  • “Your background has been almost all manufacturing in the food industry in the United States of America...” — Aaron (04:10)
• Debunking the Myth: “We Don’t Make Anything”:
  • Jim’s early writing aimed to highlight what’s still made in America, addressing the widespread but inaccurate view that U.S. manufacturing no longer exists.
    • "I want to write about what we make in America because so many people think we don't make anything anymore." — Jim (06:02)

3. What Does America Still Make?

• Industry Examples: The U.S. continues to produce a vast range of products—from airplanes, defense items, construction equipment, winter hats, food, steel, metal parts, to specialty chemicals.
  • “We make lots of cars. We make airplanes. We make lots of defense stuff.” — Jim (12:05)
• Exports and Challenges: Regulatory complexity, varying international standards, and loss of domestic capabilities pose challenges to exporting and rebuilding certain sectors.
  • “To make something in the US for the EU is very difficult and doesn't always pencil.” — Aaron (13:36)

4. Perception vs. Reality in U.S. Manufacturing

• Two-Pronged Perception Problem:
  • Over-publicized deindustrialization overshadows thriving sectors.
  • Societal denigration of trades and manufacturing as “lesser” work has eroded interest in these careers.
    • “There’s also kind of the own goal we’ve done of denigrating manufacturing and trades work for three generations now...” — Jim (14:21)

5. The Transition to a Service Economy

• Service Economy Skepticism: Both guests challenge the narrative that mature economies must become post-industrial, noting the hazards of offshoring production.
  • "There was this elitist notion that those jobs should become beneath us as a superpower..." — Jim (18:52)
  • “Advanced nations become service economies. Where does that claim come from?” — Jim (17:46)

6. Labor, Unions, and Complexity

• Unions—Double-Edged Sword:
  • Both good and problematic elements; the polarization of labor issues mirrors broader political divides.
  • “You can't really have a straight conversation about unions with people...there's no in between.” — Aaron (23:03)
  • “If you back up and take kind of the rational perspective, that should be obviously the right answer.” — Jim (23:23)

7. Offshoring & Exporting Problems

• Outsourcing’s Hollow Victory:
  • The U.S. largely exported industrial “misery” instead of resolving issues domestically.
  • “We exported misery...but if it's out of sight, out of mind, everyone here is like, oh, okay, we fixed that problem.” — Jim (25:49)

8. The Critical Role of Supply Chain

• National Security & Economic Resilience:
  • Manufacturing matters most for national security; the pandemic made everyone aware of “supply chain,” but few understand its complexities.
  • “If you’ve lost all your machine shops, if you’ve lost all your tool and die makers, it's not going to happen.” — Jim (38:53)
  • “We're in a happier spot that people know the term ‘supply chain,’ but people do not know the implications of that.” — Jim (38:20)

9. AI, Automation, and Optimism

• AI as a Double-Edged Sword:
  • Could make up for lost industrial knowledge and streamline admin, but may hit white-collar roles hardest.
    • “...Maybe that’s a plus for the blue collar end of things.” — Jim (40:10)

10. The Foundation of Prosperity: Energy

• Energy Availability as the Bedrock:
  • Every form of production relies on affordable, reliable energy—coal, gas, nuclear—while wind/solar struggle to provide baseload power.
    • “Everything is about energy. And if you’re secure in your inputs with energy, you are in a much stronger position.” — Aaron (66:20)
  • “If we acknowledge that experiment in wind and solar has crashed and burned...then we’re back to the mainstays. Right. Coal. Coal and gas.” — Jim (70:20)
• Nuclear and Grid Reliability:
  • Discussion of U.S. grid challenges, the practical hurdles of large-scale nuclear, and hope for small modular reactors.
    • “The future should be nuclear...but we’re still years away from really bumping that fleet up.” — Jim (69:45)

11. Corporate Culture, Longevity, and People

• The Human Factor:
  • The most durable companies are those that sincerely value employees, invest in their communities, and adapt through generations.
    • “Those kinds of companies that stand the test of time are the ones that walk the walk when it comes to treating their people right.” — Jim (103:10)
  • “Within about 15 minutes, you can kind of feel it...You can either feel a warmth or you can feel a chill almost.” — Aaron (114:25)
• Education & Skills:
  • Trades and manufacturing need to be valued as vital, rewarding careers; many effective programs fly under the radar.
    • “We do have a skilled trades gap because we’ve been denigrating trades for generations...But there's also a culture problem within companies.” — Jim (134:43)

12. Jim’s Book: “American” and the Stories That Matter

• Spotlighting 22 Companies:
  • The book highlights thriving, often family- or employee-owned U.S. manufacturers that demonstrate adaptability, people-first values, and a deep sense of place/community.
  • Example stories include Aarens (snowblowers/lawnmowers), Monti Group (manufacturing in Michigan), Revere Copper (founded by Paul Revere), and Stormy Kromer (iconic winter hats).
• Themes:
  • Enduring companies invest in people, adapt technology, and support their regions; their histories are intertwined with that of the nation.
    • “I want to make sure we're getting these stories out there for people to know. Yeah, we are still making things.” — Jim (126:35)
    • “If you're not putting people first, you won't be one of these companies that has five generations under their belt.” — Jim (129:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I want to write about what we make in America because so many people think we don't make anything anymore.” — Jim (06:02)
• “Advanced nations become service economies. Where does that claim come from? What evidence does that lie upon?” — Jim (17:46)
• “There’s also kind of the own goal we’ve done of denigrating manufacturing and trades work for three generations now...” — Jim (14:21)
• “We exported misery...but if it's out of sight, out of mind, everyone here is like, oh, okay, we fixed that problem.” — Jim (25:49)
• “If you've lost all your machine shops, if you've lost all your tool and die makers, it's not going to happen.” — Jim (38:53)
• "Everything is about energy. And if you're secure in your inputs with energy, you are in a much stronger position." — Aaron (66:20)
• “Those kinds of companies that stand the test of time are the ones that walk the walk when it comes to treating their people right.” — Jim (103:10)
• “Within about 15 minutes, you can kind of feel it...You can either feel a warmth or you can feel a chill almost.” — Aaron (114:25)
• “If you're not putting people first, you won't be one of these companies that has five generations under their belt.” — Jim (129:24)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Writing, Forbes, and First-Person Perspective: 00:00–03:40
• Jim’s Manufacturing Background: 04:00–07:00
• What America Still Makes: 12:00–13:45
• Perceptions and Denigration of the Trades: 14:00–16:00
• Transition to Service Economy: 17:40–19:20
• Union Dynamics: 20:00–23:45
• Outsourcing, Supply Chains, and National Security: 24:30–31:00
• AI, Automation, and Workforce: 38:00–41:10
• Foundational Role of Energy: 65:30–80:30
• Corporate Culture, Family Businesses, and Company Longevity: 102:56–113:59
• Jim’s Book and Examples (Aarens, Monti Group, Revere Copper, Stormy Kromer): 97:49–128:36

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Flow, Tone, and Extras

• The episode is direct, unscripted, and at times humorous—Aaron is both irreverent and pragmatic, Jim is thoughtful and data-driven but personable.
• The hosts regularly push back on mainstream narratives, looking for nuance rather than easy answers.
• The dialogue is accessible but unapologetically deep, tying seemingly technical or “boring” topics (like supply chains and labor policy) directly to everyday American life and future prosperity.
• The tone is ultimately optimistic, especially when spotlighting companies that are “doing it differently” by prioritizing their people and communities.

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How to Find Jim Vinoski

• LinkedIn: [Connect for book updates]
• Website: manufacturingtalks.com
• YouTube/Substack/Podcast: Manufacturing Talks

Jim’s book, “American: 22 Tales of Integrity, Ingenuity and Modest Heroes who Built a Nation,” releases June 2026.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the real state of American industry, the unseen heroes behind it, and the gritty realities and future promise of “the dirt world.”

Transcript

[A]

This episode of the Dirt Talk podcast is with Jim Finoski of Firesteel Industrial Solutions. Jim is the co founder at Firesteel, a consulting business for modern American manufacturing companies. He is a major advocate for re industrializing America with many contributions to Forbes, his Manufacturing Talks podcast and his new book, American 22 Tales of Integrity, Ingenuity and Modest Heroes who Built a Nation, which is out this June. I have followed Jim on primarily LinkedIn since I began Build Whip. He's been writing for Forbes for many years, he said, I think since 2018. And he's always been writing on topics that I find absolutely fascinating. Manufacturing, energy. He just did a recent article on American shipbuilding. I was just looking at shipbuilding in South Korea and why am I so fixated on American manufacturing? Well, I think it's part of the future of America. I think manufacturing is going to be a big piece of where our country goes long term. And of course infrastructure and resources enable manufacturing or the input to make it happen. So if I can understand where manufacturing is going in America, I can understand a little bit better where the dirt world is going and then I can help the dirt world get there a little bit more efficiently. So I love this topic. I love understanding how the world works. And I was in very good company here with Jim. So with that, here's the episode. I think two people. Like, the writing process is frustrating, but also really enjoyable. Like there's, there's discovery in it, there's creativity in it, there's problem solving in it. Like, and that it's so many people are just, just glossing right over all of that. And it's like, well, like that's what makes communication human.

[B]

Exactly. Well, plus, if you're gonna be out there also trying to tell that story and you haven't written it.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. It's not your thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's funny. I just got my kind of final edited copy of my book back from the publisher and I was running through it and doing some tweaks myself and just coming across stuff like, wow, I forgot about that. That's really cool.

[A]

Well, I also. Do you read stuff that you've written years ago?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And I'll do that all the time. Sometimes it's like, that's actually pretty good. But most of the time it's like, this guy sucks. What kind of dumb idea is that?

[B]

Now the flip side of that. We were talking about the Forbes experience yesterday and one thing they got into the point of having contributors from industry was to have People with expertise talking firsthand. So when I got in, it was a lot of first person stuff. And at some point through the whole China thing and the them flailing around trying to find out how to continue to make money in the digital age, they decided we were all going to be out and out journalists. No more first person. And you can track my stuff. And it goes backwards.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Because they're trying to make a journalist out of a non journalist.

[A]

Well. And they brought you in for your experience. Yeah. And then they're.

[B]

Yeah. Not allowing me to share it. It's like, man. So stuff here in the middle is really crappy.

[A]

Well, that's part of it.

[B]

Then I got to the end and started just ignoring the rules and I'm sure that's part of why they sent me packages.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's fine. It served its place for sure.

[B]

It remains on my. You know, featured in Forbes if it was a year ago, which I think

[A]

it still does have weight to get. Definitely to get into it officially here you like to give people a little bit on your background. Your background has been almost all manufacturing in the food industry in the United States of America, but all over the place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's your. Your expertise. But it sounds like a pretty wide variety of foods, places, processes.

[B]

Yep. Ages of plants. Non union. Yeah, all that.

[A]

Okay, see, and you started out as an engineer and then you worked your way up to running plants at the end of your manufacturing specific career.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. All right. And then you bec. You start writing. Was Forbes your first foray into writing or were you writing before that?

[B]

I was writing my whole life, but never pursued it formally except I had a few things published here and there. I do guest articles like in plant engineering.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Just come up with something. I wanted to get out there and find someone to publish it. But never regular. You know, years would go by between articles.

[A]

Nothing like. And nothing like mainstream. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And so Forbes was just this whole new realm in so many ways.

[A]

Sure. So they brought you in because they wanted insight on U. S. Manufacturing and food processing.

[B]

An insider's view.

[A]

And when, what year was that?

[B]

How long ago was it? 2018.

[A]

Okay, so a little bit ago, but not that long ago.

[B]

No.

[A]

And then. And at that point you start writing regularly.

[B]

Writing. Yeah. And then exploring. Exploring, discussing and visiting.

[A]

Yeah, because so you started like to trace the journey a little bit. You started writing about your own experience like you said at first. Because that's what. That's what you had.

[B]

Yes, to some degree. But like when I had my initial interview with my. Who would be my first editor, and she asked me what I wanted to write about. I said, I want to write about what we make in America because so many people think we don't make anything anymore.

[A]

Which is true. Yeah. Like, from a. I would say that's an accurate sentiment.

[B]

The perception.

[A]

Yeah, the perception is true.

[B]

Not true as a fact. Yeah, definitely perception.

[A]

Okay. And so where'd you start?

[B]

I started with stories I knew. So, like, one of my very earliest was a hometown company that makes winter hats and just wrote about their story.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it quickly became apparent that, you know, having that Forbes tie also brings the Prince folks coming and pitching.

[A]

Like, pitching stories.

[B]

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. And so it quickly, within the first year, became much more about the things

[A]

I was discovering from the PR people at this point. Were you. Was. Was this. You were writing full time? Were you also working?

[B]

Writing was a side job.

[A]

Oh, psychic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

And then through the years. So, yeah, you've. You've written about basically all kinds of stuff from a manufacturing standpoint. Now within the United States, it's.

[B]

Well, I mean, focused on. Yeah, focused on the US but definitely branched out into international.

[A]

When you started to get into this, what was surprising to you?

[B]

I think the surprise was, even for all the people with the PR folks out there pitching stories, was like, we were just talking about the ones who wouldn't talk, who didn't want the attention whatsoever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so there was always an element. You know, I'd get the PR stuff, but when I would want to learn something for myself, I would just kind of sit back and think, okay, what's cool? What do I want to learn for myself? And then share with my readers. And then I'd go try to find a way in. Sure. And, yeah, there were plenty who would say, oh, heck, yeah, come talk to us, but not a small number who would either never reply or come back and say, thanks, but no thanks.

[A]

Sure. Yeah, I. I've been in that boat myself.

[B]

I bet.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately for them, though, I've always viewed it as, like, they're a lot further along in life than me. So it's like, worst case scenario, I just have to wait.

[B]

Well, true. Yeah.

[A]

If I want to get somewhere, I don't know why I'm so. So I get so fixated on some places, but it's like I. If it takes me years to get in somewhere, it is what it is. I don't. I don't care. I will get in why, why do you think they didn't want you in?

[B]

I think it's a variety of things. There's the whole flying under the radar and not wanting to attract attention of either, you know, government regulators or outside agitators. Yeah. And I think there's just some people who think it's best not to have that pr. There's a company that does bourbon barrels or, you know, alcohol barrels of a variety of stripes. And I worked real closely with them. I worked in the beverage alcohol world for a few years and figured, man, they'd love to tell their story, but they came back and just said, you know what? We want the focus to be on our customers, not on us. Which I can absolutely respect that.

[A]

I respect it. But there's also. That's like. I work in the construction industry. That's always the talking point. Yep. But it's, it's flawed. It is in significant ways. And I think the, I've been fascinated by manufacturing and the US economy and the global economy. And I love. People know me as like earth moving, mining, construction. But I love any heavy industry. I love, I love seeing how the world works. Landfills, steel mills, pipelines, power lines, power plants, like they're with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is the coolest thing in the world. And I've, I've, I've read a lot about manufacturing recently. I've read a lot about trade recently. I think a lot of people have, and especially in US Business for sure. Over the past year.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's really, we talked about it last night. It's, it's now like part of everyday conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Trade.

[B]

I mean, think about the term supply chain that almost nobody knew five years ago.

[A]

Yeah. Before 2020. Exactly. Yeah. Just in time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Now everyone knows.

[A]

But, but I'm so fascinated by manufacturing because I think it's one of the biggest. I think it will either get the US to whatever's next to the next century or it won't. Like, I think that's, I don't think it's going to be AI that's. That's springboarding us into this next generation of, of country. I think it's, it's still around making things. It's still around supporting a population. It's still around being an influence, but within a. Not the whole globe, I think within our, our sphere, within our hemisphere. And I'm trying to understand manufacturing because I don't understand it at all so that I can at least see where the world's going from an infrastructure standpoint. Like, all right, what Are we going to have to make here? Potentially. What's that? What do we make now? What could we make? Future state. And what are the needs going to be from a workforce standpoint, from an energy standpoint and from an infrastructure standpoint? Because it's all manufacturing its inputs. Put it in, you get it out.

[B]

Yep, for sure. And I think there could be a variety of ways to answer that first question about what we need to make. I always come at it from the national security point of view.

[A]

Well, what do we make first?

[B]

All kinds of stuff.

[A]

Start with today.

[B]

I mean think about it. We make lots of cars. We make

[A]

airplanes.

[B]

Airplanes. We make lots of defense stuff. Yeah. I mean run through the companies. In my book it's everywhere from bells to winter hats to construction equipment to construction infrastructure pieces like blocks for retaining walls. Yeah. Lumber to airplanes. I've got cirrus in there.

[A]

Airplanes.

[B]

Geez. What else? Lawnmowers and rototillers and snowblowers. Errands out of Wisconsin. Sure. Helper Springs and Andy Sway bars out in California. Company called Hellwig Products. Car detailing chemicals. Malco Products in Ohio. So yeah, just all kinds of think about food. That's where I came from. We make a whole crapload of food and then that's one that's stayed because you know, you got shelf life. You don't want to spend weeks sending something from overseas. And so we make lots and lots and lots of food. New stuff every day.

[A]

I also didn't. I read a book recently just about the like manufacturing for multiple countries is a lot more complicated than I previously thought because everybody has their own rules.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so to, to. To even make your.

[B]

Or. Or lack of rules.

[A]

Or lack of rules. Yeah.

[B]

Or equally difficult.

[A]

But to make something in the US for the EU is very difficult and doesn't always pencil. Which I didn't even consider. So it's just like I always thought and I subscribe to this and I've probably been one of the people furthering the whole talking point that we don't make stuff in America anymore when we do make a lot in America because there are still significant economic advantages and realities to producing things within the U.S. yep. And I don't think we. Like you said, I don't think the everyday person really understands just how much comes from here.

[B]

No. Because it's a two pronged effect. There's been all the publicity of things disappearing and people feel that and see it firsthand and then it becomes this overwhelming sense of. Yeah. That's happening to everything everywhere. Which isn't true, but you get why that perception comes about. And then there's. There's also kind of the own goal we've done of denigrating manufacturing and trades work for three generations now and dissuading people from seeing them as useful careers.

[A]

What. Why have we done that? Because manufacturing made the. Made the US like we were. When you read about just how dominant we were from a steel. Like the steel industry back in the day.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And the development driven by the railroads and shipbuilding and I mean, we just had these massive, massive industries. We created the modern automotive industry here. Like we created the modern aircraft industry. Like key.

[B]

We took what was a modern textile industry when England was the superstar.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And did what like the Japanese and Chinese have done to us subsequently took what was best practice, then got incredibly good at it and made it enormously better.

[A]

Yeah. Which.

[B]

Which became a powerhouse and then gave it all away to where now we make 3% of what we wear.

[A]

Sure. Yes. Yeah. But. But that, like that. That made New England back in the day.

[B]

New England and the Southeast.

[A]

Shoes and the Southeast. Yes. The. The entire cotton industry. And. Yeah, it was so. So we've. We've been built on manufacturing. Arguably our biggest contribution to World War II was manufacturing.

[B]

Yeah. Won the war.

[A]

Yeah. People don't frame it that way, but that's. That really was our contribution in. In a grand sense.

[B]

We had the military contribution too. But I would argue without the manufacturing

[A]

contribution, you have to have the material with the. With the. With the people, with the personnel.

[B]

You don't bomb two corners of the earth into submission with.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Building lots of planes and shells and.

[A]

Yes. Well, in that. And Britain was in a big pickle because they were on an island and getting smothereen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they couldn't make anything themselves.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And so. But then you had the U.S. over here. That there was no war going on within our borders and we could just build whatever we needed to.

[B]

And the Soviets too. People forget how much we gave them.

[A]

Boy. Yeah. Because they're. They're equally as resource rich. We're very resource rich. They're very resource rich.

[B]

But they had all their plants blown up.

[A]

Yes. Yes. Because they were.

[B]

Or taken over.

[A]

Yeah, they were. They were as in the war as anybody else.

[B]

Right. Yeah. We were an island nation in two world wars.

[A]

Correct. And then even post World War it again, like our manufacturing capacity really helped facilitate what the EU became, what Japan became. Absolutely what Asia became. Like.

[B]

Yeah. We helped build the rest of the world into what they are Today we helped do it.

[A]

We helped do a lot of it. Yeah. Our fingerprints aren't everything. And then we just said we're just, I don't know, we're too good for this now let's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why make stuff.

[B]

Yeah. I think there were a variety of threads that came together in a really bad way. You know, it was the general notion that gee, you hear this thing and I've been battling against this for years now. Well, advanced nations become service economies. Where does that claim come from? What evidence does that lie upon?

[A]

When you say service economy. Explain service economy.

[B]

Not making but doing.

[A]

Consuming.

[B]

Yeah. Or making the process that helps the consumables get to where they need to go and get consumed.

[A]

Like an accounting firm.

[B]

Accounting is a shipping and service based. Yeah. Not the actual. Like we were talking about last night. Extracting, growing or manufacturing. Those are the three that get cast aside when you talk about service.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And we cast all of them aside to some degree. Mining and manufacturing especially.

[A]

So yeah.

[B]

I think there was this elitist notion that those jobs should become beneath us as a superpower bestriding the world. There was the environmental movement, the worker safety movement. Unions had an enormous hand in saying, oh, we're not getting our fair share and we're going to create all these headaches for the companies and for government until we get what we want. And you never got to enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had one economist who told me straight up, half of our manufacturing loss was because of unions and labor unrest.

[A]

And the union thing is very complicated.

[B]

Very.

[A]

Because. Yeah, there's, there's. It's on a spectrum as well.

[B]

Well yeah, and a bunch of threads that came together there too. I mean there are very good reasons for why people wanted unions, why they came about. You know, even to this day I can point to depredations by supposed, you know, how to put it. Respectable companies that are doing things that are reprehensible.

[A]

100 right now. Yeah.

[B]

So yeah. You get why workers trying to do something for themselves realize pretty quickly one guy is not going to make a difference. And a lot of workers getting together can. But then you had the mob involved and you had all the.

[A]

Well I, and I think like unions when they, when they act as they should, like, like anything, like a company, like a government, like when it, when it acts according to those core principles. I think it's a great thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then when it becomes self serving, like it's like anything the union. Non union. I mean companies are the same way. It's like when the company stops serving the, the employees and the customer base and just kind of serves itself when.

[B]

Which. Or worse.

[A]

Or worse. Yeah. Which is a lot of. Yeah.

[B]

Those players who realize they can get up to some shenanigans and enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I don't know, like, you know, foreign wars, for example. But we won't get into that. Like, I think, I think they just fall into the trap. That is, it's just human nature. I think like it is you, you, you get so big and powerful that you then start. Instead of like the ideals that got you there, you start to get into this, protect, defend. How can this become something to keep my power and retain what we have. And you're, you're serving yourself. You're not serving the base anymore.

[B]

I think when it comes to unions and government, there's an additional dynamic that maybe doesn't work quite the same way as in business. And that is if you're not, if you're not solving something for your membership, if there's not some major war to be fought, then you fall into irrelevance. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so how do you make sure that never happens? You became, you become the rabble rouser.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You're always going to create a creative.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Us versus them.

[B]

Whether it's useful or even real or not, there's an element, both governments and unions where there's never going to be a point where they've succeeded. Sure. Otherwise the people with the power lose their power.

[A]

Yeah. It's, it's. I heard this explained somewhere else. When they, when you touch something that's like a wound and there's like an immediate contraction, there's probably something else there. You know, like those topics where it's kind of like the third rail. You wade into those waters and it's just immediate. And it's. Unions are one of those topics. Like I've never. You can't really have a straight conversation about unions with people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's so polarizing. It's either you're 100% pro union or they're the worst. And there's no in between. There's no, like you can't have, you can't have a belief that's like, well, I think they do some great things. But then I also think there's like some major problems.

[B]

Yeah. Which is if you back up and take kind of the rational perspective, that should be obviously the right answer. And you're absolutely right. It's still an answer that isn't allowed to take root because of those two polarized ends wanting to.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's all. Yeah. Created. Yeah. The whole thing works with that polarization. So if you, if you, if you do anything but that one. Our whole political system is the same thing.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Pick a side. No, no, no, you can't be in the middle. No, no, no, you pick a damn side. Because it, it, it, that's the way it functions best for them, not for the people. But, but so, yeah, I think like you were saying though, the, the, the economy has transitioned dramatically. I think a lot of it's been driven. It's, it's even like it's difficult to even have a conversation about this because to make it make sense you have to dumb it way down. But it's the biggest economy ever in the history of the world. The US Government's the biggest human organization ever in the history of the world. You have the complexity of the Federal Reserve and foreign policy and trade policy. Foreign banking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Domestic banking. Like there's all these, all these complications to it for sure. But I think you can say that we, we, we consume the United States. We consume more than ever.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we consume more than any people ever have in human history.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And yet we've taken a lot of the, the production for that consumption. We've put it elsewhere.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But we've retained a lot of the value for ourselves.

[B]

Yes, for sure. Yep. And not done other people a lot of favors in, in some regards.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, go from. Instead of fixing processes that were here and making them acceptable and, and sustainable and you know, befitting a first class power, we just shipped them overseas to people who not only didn't do them as well as we were doing, they did them worse and more destructively and.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Unsafely. And it's like I said last night, the guy who said we exported misery couldn't have been more spot on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if it's out of sight, out of mind, everyone here is like, oh, okay, we fixed that problem.

[A]

Well, and then, but then it creates this false reality that it's like we're better because like we're cleaner, we're more refined, we have more things when it's on the backs of a lot of other countries and places. And I don't say all this like I'm actually, like I was explaining at dinner, I'm actually quite positive about the future because I have to be. I'm 31 and so it's like, why be all bummed out? And I do have days up a

[B]

long time being Bummed out.

[A]

That'd be a long. It'd be a pretty miserable.

[B]

I hope anyway.

[A]

Yeah. And, but, but, and I do have days where I am bummed out, especially with some stuff happening now. It's like what you said you weren't going to do this. Now you're doing this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What. But I'm pretty optimistic and I, and I, and I try to understand all of these things so I can just understand like how did we get here? Where are we? And then what are the opportunities going forward? And I think we are at this critical junction where we have taken manufacturing a lot of times we have put that misery elsewhere in a lot of other ways. But that's not sustainable. Like it doesn't, it doesn't math. Like, even, even China I think is, is a great example. Like yeah, China is far more sophisticated than they were 20 years ago for sure. And even the advantage with labor rates, for example.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Is, is not really there anymore. And they have more people leaving the workforce than entering the workforce.

[B]

Right. In China, they're the biggest buyer of industrial robots in the world.

[A]

Yes, yes. Yeah. And their manufacturing is getting more sophisticated and, and they've made a concerted effort. Hey, instead of retaining two out of a hundred dollars, let's retain twenty out of a hundred dollars. Let's. Which then makes, then you need more sophisticated industry and you need to retain more of the supply chain within your. Your borders. Hence now their automotive industry, probably best in the world potentially. Like certainly.

[B]

On EVs.

[A]

On, on EVs, yes. Yeah. On EVs for sure. And just production like their capacity, even how much they can produce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

Which, which though that is a problem in itself. I mean, look at steel right now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's just this monstrous oversupply. And that's where the difference in economic systems kind of raises its head is China has focused on big, huge swaths of industry. And steel's a great example where they've just built, built, built, built and subsidized. Subsidized, Subsidized. And you get to a point where number one, people realized during the COVID years, okay, it's kind of a bad idea that we're relying on this increasingly malignant power for our basic supplies and kind of flew in the face of some economics and re. Establishing things domestically. Yeah. And you start to see like US Steel just announced restarting a tin steel plant. Forget who else is restarting a blast furnace.

[A]

I saw that.

[B]

And so there's that stuff coming back just from that sheer. Geez, we've got to have some percentage of our stuff here domestically under our control. And so China's sitting there now holding the bag because they've established this tremendous capacity and they're losing business. What do you do? And then they're starting to flood the world with their, you know, dumping prices. Steel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And already you start to see the people pushing back on the trade rules and all that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, the complexity is incredible. Just talking about the policy end of things gets to be so complex and so vast and, you know, beyond human comprehension. That itself can drive some of that despair you were referring to. But I think where you need to back off to is, okay, well, what are the concrete things we can do today that will help and just do them?

[A]

And so what are those things? Like, what do you think the US Needs to focus on?

[B]

Well, again, I think there's this unassailable argument that you've got to have core industries, domestic. And I always hang it on the national security side side. You can certainly do it from a pure economic side, too. And so if you take my approach and just say, what are those things? We just have to have some element of here for our basic needs. And it can be anything from chip building to textiles and garment making, to steel to shipbuilding. And then you dig into each of those in turn. What are the things that are keeping us from being able to make them? And again, it'll be vastly complex and difficult. And so you just try to come up with straightforward. Here's something we can do right now. Shipbuilding. Okay, we're going to build some ships. The government is going to buy some ships, both military and commercial, and just get some ship yards up and running, restarted, whatever, give them some, some steady state, basic business. And then, I mean, you can spend a whole lifetime digging into the policy things of what we've done in the past. Did it work? Did it not work? What happened? Why? And try to ferret out things you can do for the longer term?

[A]

Well, I want to talk about shipbuilding, but I just, I am like, I'm a macro thinker, and if it goes any smaller than that, I really struggle. I really struggle. But I just remember years ago, It's been a really interesting time doing what I'm doing, I bet, because you see growth and then Covid happens and then it just goes into insanity. And, and anybody thinking that the past six years is the norm is, Is insane. Is. Is absolutely insane because nothing that has happened in the past six years has made any sense whatsoever.

[B]

And yet what you have to Keep in mind is there are people who are now into a good chunk of their careers who've never known anything else.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And even people like me, it's like, okay, I'm in my 30s now. I didn't really like the recession. I don't really remember that much. Like, I was, I was a kid. And so it didn't really. In my household, we weren't all that impacted because my father, he was. He was either a lawyer with real estate and tax or a lawyer with bankruptcy. And. And what if. Bankruptcy, you're doing great business regardless. Actually. Pretty clever, Pretty clever model he created, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rain or shine, he's. He's making. He's making hay somehow.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So it didn't really impact me. So, yeah, my whole life, things have been good, essentially. And even before the recession, like the 2000s, everything was pretty good. Yeah, it was actually kind of crazy. And you had the dot com issue even in the, in the 90s. But like, that wasn't, it wasn't this huge implosion, 2008, 9, 10. That, that hurt people a lot more because that was houses, that was jobs, that was the automotive industry. Like, there were some real big things that were taken out.

[B]

Banks and whole businesses disappearing.

[A]

Whole businesses disappearing. But yeah, so we've been fooled into thinking. And even, like people's memory is just so short. Like, even just people like, yeah, things are slowing down. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, what happened to 2019? Like, what. Where was your business in 2019? Oh, it was half. Like, yeah, yes, okay, it's gonna slow down a little bit because the government's not spending trillion printing trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and just handing it out. Like, even the paycheck protection program, it's just like, here's a trillion dollars with no ends. Like, people want to say, yeah, no one talks fraud when it comes to ppp. But it's like, where'd that money go? I don't know. I don't know. A trillion dollars vanishing. But anyway, anyway, anyway, I watched the whole warehouse thing go crazy because of E commerce and people at home and ordering online, and it just, Just went bananas.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then there was a, an oversupply in, in warehouse capacity because a lot of it, once it becomes speculative, then you're like, all right, how long can this be?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Before when you don't know who you're building stuff, when you don't know who you're building a million square feet for. It's like, I don't know about this. And then it went to these massive. The, the chips act came out and it went to semiconductors, who, which, that's a mixed bag because you have TSMC that I heard is actually doing quite well. But then you have other plants, like one in Ohio that's like. Or in Texas maybe there was another one that's like, I don't know if this thing will even make chips.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that one is questionable.

[B]

Yeah. It was interesting during that time there was so much hype about manufacturing is back. Look at all the construction.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I was constantly saying, you know, building plants is not manufacturing well.

[A]

And then what I, what I really saw was the battery plants. And they were the biggest projects in America at the time. You had one in Tennessee, you had one in South Carolina, you had one in North Carolina. I mean they were, they were everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. Numerous ones that were supposed to be up in Michigan.

[A]

Yeah, Yep. And I remember being out on these sites, like, this is incredible. But like where does all the stuff come from? Okay, you're going to build these batteries in these cars. But like where does the lithium come from?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where does the steel come from? Where does the aluminum come from, the copper come from? Like I, because I'm a simple thinker, I'm like, but where are your inputs and are we doing that here? No, we're not, we're not increasing any of that industrial capacity to actually produce those things or mine them or my. Or mine them. We're just, we're just going to go build battery cars. And we all know how that's gone.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All of that's now.

[B]

It was speculative on both ends of the supply chain.

[A]

Yes, yes. And now you have the AI thing.

[B]

It was like the underpants gnomes backwards. We had the middle part. We didn't have the ends.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Exactly. Yes. You didn't have the inputs and then you didn't have the consumer base. So like I think anybody could have been like a six year old could have been like, wait a minute, how does this work? Two plus two doesn't equal seven and, and turns out 20, 26, two plus two doesn't equal seven.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that's how I've thought about this. Like right, wrong or indifferent. I'm always like, even the stuff happening with mining right now, it's like going to permit copper mining because copper is so important. I'm like, okay, cool, you're going to mine copper here. Where are you smelting it.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

Where, Tell me, where are you smelting it? There's two smelters.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're maybe restarting a third. But I know you're not building a new smelter, so you. It's smelt it offshore somewhere, which still doesn't solve the problem.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you're not retaining that supply chain. You're not retaining at least even just that input.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

If copper really is essential, you need to do everything. If steel really is essential, you need to do everything.

[B]

Yeah. So we're in a happier spot that people know the term supply chain, but people do not know the implications of that. I've got a whole bunch of manufacturing talking heads who are banging the drum and rightly so that you know, we can do all this reestablishing of textiles or shipbuilding or steel or whatever, but if you've lost all your machine shops, if you've lost all your tool and die makers, it's, it's not going to happen.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's what we're finding out right now. It's like, wait a minute, this is

[B]

like bigger problem than we.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, and then you lose, if you lose the, the knowledge base now you have to go recreate it in a sense and you can do that a little quicker nowadays, but you still have to create it again.

[B]

I mean that's where I actually have some optimism is that AI will play an integral role in helping us retain what we still have and get back what we need and provide some of the pieces that have always been enormously difficult. Training and certification, things that are a lot of kind of admin work that's after the fact and kind of forgotten by the main players are things that I think AI can just readily handle as it gets to where it can, can get. The downside is it also means the loss of a lot of white collar jobs. But sure, maybe that's a plus for the blue collar end of things.

[A]

Well, and, and it's not. I don't want to be one of these guys. It's like told you guys like sucks

[B]

for you, but I do.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I would say, I love to say, I do want to say that. For lawyers. Yeah. For the legal industry. A hundred percent. I told you so you guys suck. Same with finance, you know. Yeah. Serves you guys right for, for screwing everybody else. Yeah. And I don't want to be that guy in the grand scheme of things. But, but at the same time there's these like these massive white collar industries that create no value, like in some regards destroy value. That I would argue that's how they make their money is by destroying value for, for, for many to create enormous value for very few.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that, that's why I love manufacturing and industry is because it creates value for many. Yeah, like that, that's, that's how a middle class works.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I think the health of a society is built upon the health of the middle class.

[B]

For sure. Yeah. Especially the forgotten regions of the country that have suffered so much because we weren't going to do this dark and dangerous and dirty work anymore.

[A]

Yes. But you go, I mean, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, like Indiana, Northern Indiana. It's, it's still pretty depressing driving through some of those areas.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

It's just been decimated.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Decimated.

[B]

Yeah, I just went out, I called it the Rust Belt Tour Manufacturing. Last fall, drove across Michigan and Ohio and into Pennsylvania and it was amazing. Driving down kind of the western edge of Pennsylvania and realizing every single one of these towns had steel mills. I mean, you can still see them there, all the buildings are still there and all the industry's gone. And yeah, you kind of wonder why things look so depressing. It's because their bread and butter went away 30, 40 years ago.

[A]

What clued you in on shipbuilding? Why is that? Why is that in the news right now too? Who cares?

[B]

Why is it in the news? That's a great question. I have no idea. I think part of it's that it's one of the things that Trump has focused on, but it also just seems like it's got its moment. There are a lot of voices coming together to say, holy cow, do you guys realize what a disaster it is? And nobody does. I mean, the public has no clue that we're essentially non existent in shipbuilding. I got really interested in it because of an article by Brian Potter in Construction Physics that I came across a year and a half ago, which was chock full of information about the state of affairs and where, where we were and where we've gotten to. But the big revelation for me was that we've not been competitive in America in shipbuilding on a, on a normal business basis since wooden ships, since basically the end of the Civil War, which it's like, what are you talking about? You know, you think about the might we had World War I, World War II. Well, the wars were, were essentially bubbles. Right. It was where we talked about being the island nation. So everyone wanted us to build their ships and we certainly did. It showed the ability of Americans to step up. But prior to the war it was declining. World War I comes along, you get the bump. It went to crap between the wars. World War II get a bump after World War II, nothing but decline.

[A]

But it was until now it wasn't just a bump. It was like we were building a majority of the world's ships. I mean, World War II, within a few years.

[B]

Yeah. We were the shipbuilder to the world.

[A]

The shipbuilder, the airplane builder.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like everything. The munition gun manufacturer. Yeah, yeah. Like we built almost everything for the world. Like sure, Germany had an industrial base, Soviet Union, Russia had an industrial base, Japan had an industrial base. But like they all had destroyed all of those things. Got.

[B]

We didn't.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

So that's what created the bubble is where this enclave able to keep producing when everyone else was having their industries bombed to smithereens. Yeah, but, but that being said, we were able to do it. And I less than I defy you to say another country could have delivered what we delivered. I mean World War II, to me that is just miraculous what we accomplished.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So it's possible.

[B]

It's very doable. I think America could still do that.

[A]

But what's the advantage to building ships now? Why can't we just go build them elsewhere?

[B]

I think buying ships from abroad is one of the answers. I don't think there's any magic to us building ships across the board. Again, I hang it on the national security end. And there, of course, we don't want other people building our warships, at least not the critical ones. So that element of shipbuilding should be supported and kept alive by the government,

[A]

which is almost exclusively the US shipbuilding industry, I would say. Is the US Navy.

[B]

Well, yes and no. It's the US ship assembling industry. But you look under the covers there and you find out all the components are coming from overseas. Again, going back to that supply chain thing. Right.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So we've sent a whole bunch of the inputs to shipbuilding over the pond. And, and so there's still going to be kind of nine yards of you know what hanging out even if we get the shipbuilders back up to snuff. Sure. So there's that whole supply chain and that I think we do need to focus on reestablishing at least some portion of. But I think there's a whole mix of things that needs to be done for us just to support ourselves as, you know, the maritime trade animal that we to some degree need to be. Right.

[A]

Well, it is Incredible. Because I think everybody's. Because of the war right now with Iran, everybody has realized that shipping is actually pretty important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't think we have in the States because we're not impacted by Middle Eastern oil with. Has as much as many trillions of dollars as we spent in the Middle east and lives and this and that and decades. Apparently we don't actually need this.

[B]

There's a whole other. Well, we don't, but we did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's a whole piece we. People don't get is that we've reestablished our production in that regard. And yeah, we're sitting kind of pretty because of that. Even knowing what I know, I'm shocked at how well we've weathered that because I'm a child of. I grew up in the 70s when we truly were at everyone else's behest and people were rationing. We took a serious massive economic hit because of the oil embargo.

[A]

Oh, but that. And I was just in India. It's what's happening in India. It's what's happening in Australia. China's a little bit better because they have. They got reserve storage capacity. Crazy storage capacity. They've seen this one coming for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why their EV market is open. Because they want to save the environment, because they want to get off foreign oil, which is. I think they don't have it. Yeah. I think it's a savvy move.

[B]

You know, that's one thing I think we don't admit to ourselves enough is that China has done brilliant things and we can learn from them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we should be. And that's another one of those things where it's like, oh, no, China's evil. We don't want to do anything.

[A]

Yeah, but. But. And that's a whole. Yeah, that's a whole other can of words. Something.

[B]

Another discussion.

[A]

But I think we're. We're. We're figuring out the importance of global trade facilitated by enormous LNG carriers. Crude, very large crude carriers, by cargo ships. Roll on, roll off ships. Like that is the global. That is. That is the global economy, is the movement of these ships back and forth for sure. And back in the day, that was like, maybe the ship's gonna get there. And if maybe the ship's gonna get there, I'm not gonna go put all my valuable stuff on it. How do we ensure that? And this and that. And then you've got the US Navy that comes around post World War II especially. That's like, hey, Guys, we've got it. But. But that's the irony of this whole thing is like a lot of our power as a nation since World War II has been facilitated by our maritime prowess and maritime security. And yet that's one of the things we struggle with the most, is anything maritime related, especially when you have two enormous coasts on either side as well. It's like, you think we'd be the best in the world. Why are the Dutch the best at this?

[B]

But, but again, you know, there is an element there that says that is a very good argument for, for free trade, is that we don't have to be the best at everything. We can. We can be a great nation by projecting naval power. Sure. And by relying on other nations for the ships themselves and to some degree, for the shipping. There's nothing wrong with that. But again, if you get yourselves into a state where you can't build ships and especially the military ones, and you've let your Navy decline by 50% and you're facing a rising power that is a very real threat to your world domination. Yeah. You're in a tough spot.

[A]

Well, that. And that's. Yeah. And that's where we are. I wouldn't, because I've traveled too much and I've. I've lived the right life experience to believe that, like, we need to do everything ourselves is the dumbest thing in the world. We should do nothing ourselves is the dumbest thing in the world. I think, like, something in the middle, like, wait a minute. If, if, if our, our global power hinges on our ability to maintain global trade, maybe we should be able to do some of this stuff ourselves. Like, and I think that's the point you're trying to make is like, maybe we should have some capacity to do some of this ourselves.

[B]

There's the piece of having that immediate production ability in a pinch, but there's also that piece like, we've hit on a couple times now about the supply chain. If you've let all your ability to create the inputs go, then when that pinch comes, if you have the ability to assemble ships and now you can't buy the parts anymore is not doing you any good. And that's what we've done. We've sent so many vital inputs almost entirely overseas. That's the invisible piece. The missing discussion of, geez, as a nation, we're in a rough spot and we've got to do something about it.

[A]

This is what I find so fascinating, though, about. Oh, and this is why I'm just not super optimistic in all the technology stuff, maybe it all ends the world. I don't know, Maybe. And I'm trying to be very nice to AI because if it ever comes for me, it's gonna look at my prompts. You were using please and thank you. So we're not gonna, we're not gonna bury you. You're fine. You can be this, you know, this helper over here.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

maybe it ends the world, but I just, I don't, I've never really bought into technology at all because I don't think it's really. When you think about how much it's really changed things, it has changed things, but our day to day life, it hasn't really changed like my life from when I was born in the 90s to now, it's pretty damn similar. Almost everything is the same. My kitchen looks the same, house looks the same. Cars are almost identical. They just have a computer in them now and they're less reliable. Roads look the same, the city looks the same. Air travel is arguably worse. It's safer. It's safer. It's safer. It's safer. Sure. It's a little bit more comfortable. You can't smoke anymore, unfortunately. Huge. Huge. Yeah, that, that was a major, major regression. But there, so like the, the major thing that's happened is there's this thing in my pocket now with the world, with the ability to communicate with the world on it. Like I just messaged before, this messaged a guy I know in Dubai because I'm trying to do something like just that alone is incredible for sure. And the ability for me to access tens of millions of people with our content is just mind boggling. So I wouldn't be here without it. But if you just looked at our world today, if you took a cross section today and a cross section from when I was born 30 years ago, there's not all that much different. But with all this talk, and this is my very long winded way of making this point, so, so with all this talk about how the technology is going to change the future, I, I look at the past and I'm like, well, you've been saying that for a long time and has it changed some things dramatically? Sure, but most everything's the same. So I think this is based on history, I think this is dramatically overstated. And then two, regardless of however much AI you want, we're still dependent upon these stupid giant ships that go like 8 miles an hour around the world. And we're still dependent upon trucks and 40 foot shipping containers and power lines. And water lines and railroads on steel on, on very old technology like and big shovels and trucks pulling stuff out of the ground and drills poking holes into the ground and pulling gas and, and, and, and oil out. Like that's a farm still growing some plants.

[B]

I think there are several juicy tidbits that you've hit on there. One is try as we might to gloss over the reality. So scarcity is a reality and we'll always live with that. Now we've gotten very spoiled because we've done all these things, most of them decades and decades ago to eliminate scarcity in our day to day lives. And, and part of our, our challenge now is very few people alive. Remember a time when you couldn't get what you wanted like that. And yet, you know, you can look at scenarios that are very real. I mean Covid's a good one. I mean I was living the food and beverage world at that time and I'm here to tell you we were on the cusp of losing our food supply chain and potential starvation because workers weren't going into the food plants. Sure. For, you know, they were either sick or they were scared to be there. Regardless, there was, and it wasn't very long. I mean it was, it was weeks but there were weeks there where I seriously thought, man, we, in another few weeks we could be seeing store shelves emptying of things that really matter. And so that's a piece of. It is. People have gotten too comfortable and too assuming that what they count on will

[A]

always be there because in their lifetime

[B]

it has, it has always been there. Yeah, yeah, even and more and more so. Right. When I was a kid, you couldn't order something and have it arrive the same day. Yes. I joke with my kids about a bicyclist and I would order bike parts from the paper order form that you had to mail. And you didn't have any clue when stuff was going to show up. It would be weeks, it could be months. You had no idea you could call and talk to someone. You at least could get a human back then, but your chances of getting a solid answer were pretty slim and you just waited. And so there are a lot of things that have tweaked and all that, but the thing that hasn't changed is this ready availability of whatever we want. And yet to your point, it all relies on brute force things happening all over the place that we constantly put more and more roadblocks in front of.

[A]

And that, and that to me is it's, and I've tried, but I'VE tried to understand, like, why are we putting the roadblocks. But, but when you, when you want to talk technology, it's like, okay, AI, this, that, that's cool. But like, like toilets and how they flush every time, like that is such a problem. If your toilet doesn't flush.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

If you didn't have a toilet.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, that's a major problem.

[B]

Look at, look at all the publicity the Artemis ship got.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

For not having a working toilet.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

But because people, because people realize, holy crap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To not. Yeah. No punishment purposely. Or throw the plumber.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, but if that was in my house, that would, that would really suck.

[A]

And, but, but the, the, the fact that that works every time or the fact that I can get a watermelon in any country I go to any time of the year.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I can get a watermelon.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's like I don't even need a watermelon right now, but I can go get a watermelon.

[B]

I could go get a cure in the fact that if you needed one,

[A]

it would be unbelievable. I remember I spent a lot of time over the past years in Australia and my diet would be identical. I would buy the exact same stuff at the grocery store that I do here in Tennessee, almost halfway around the entire planet. And just every time I would do that, I was just like, this is unbelievable how this is even possible. Or water coming out of my faucet that I can drink at any time of the day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Any week, any month, non stop. My entire life I've been able to just go to the faucet and drink out of it. Or my lights have always come on. Like, if you want to talk technology, I think that is so much more profound.

[B]

It is, absolutely. But, but we take it for granted.

[A]

It's just, it is what it is.

[B]

And again, it's this, it's this reality that time doesn't help. You know, the longer we go, when everything like that works, regardless of what we do, regardless of who's doing what in our world, who's, who's, you know, what corruption we have in our government, what heinous things are, what heinous things our companies might be up to, what horrible things our unions might be doing to us. Turn on the tap and the water comes out and you drink and you're safe.

[A]

It's unbelievable.

[B]

And so it's easy just to forget the problems and to realize that we're not that many days away from a disaster if something stopped working.

[A]

Well, even food supply like you just turned off. If you turned off food tomorrow, people are starving in not all that much time. Weeks.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. You've also been doing a lot on energy and that's another. I love talking about this stuff too, because everybody's an expert now. Like everybody became a supply chain expert. Everybody is a global trade expert with tariffs. Everybody right now is a oil and gas expert and maritime trade well expert.

[B]

So here's a curious thing about that. We make fun of people becoming instant experts, and yet the reality is because of some of these advantages, things that aren't that meaningful day to day but, but truly are revolutionary, like the access to information you mentioned a few minutes ago. It doesn't take that much to really, I mean, how you, how you define expert is sure something here, but to be able to converse intelligently with people who have studied this for years and decades, that's not hard.

[A]

It isn't.

[B]

I've done it again and again and I mean, I've had people coming to me in the media to give my commentary on things I've been studying for a year and a half and yet I'm able to do that if you do the homework. And I mean, I'll study things and I will go in a rabbit hole and read books and pull up everything I can on the Internet, you know, so what is The Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours or whatever? Yes, there's reality to that. And so there's two sides to that coin. People who don't do the homework and just are going to give their opinions from base. A base of 0 based on a social media headline. That's a problem. And yet people new to a field can certainly offer very sometimes revolutionary commentary just because they're coming at it from a fresh perspective.

[A]

That's a great point.

[B]

So it's a great. That expert thing. Yeah, it's, it's kind of a spectrum.

[A]

I guess I just think it's like it's still a vast majority of people. They'll, they'll read an article and then they'll act like they completely understand the situation. And it's like the more I learn, the more I'm like, I'm an idiot. I don't actually don't know how any of this works.

[B]

That's where I love to go, to the people who have studied things for decades. Because what they can do for you because of all the homework they've done in the sweat and toil is point you to resources that can bring you up to speed in a big hurry. Like in shipbuilding I had an executive who would not talk publicly, but who gave me enormous insights. And the biggest was he's like, go read the Abandoned Ocean. I get this book and I mean, it is unbelievable, the wealth of knowledge it has from the earliest days of American shipbuilding up to the year 2000 when it came out. Really? Yep. And I'll mention that to other experts and like, oh, you're reading the Abandoned Ocean. Oh, okay, good. Yeah, let's talk.

[A]

On all that energy, I think is another one. Yep, that's a very, it's become very political. I don't think it. Energy should never be political. It's crazy that it's become political. It's a huge, I think, like a threat to humanity making energy political.

[B]

It is absolutely a threat in so many ways. You know, established nations, some of them essentially committing economic suicide because of stupidity about energy. And you mentioned it last night. Meanwhile, these same established nations making dumb decisions are trying to dictate to up and coming nations. Oh no, you can't use that form of energy. You're going to use this crappy form of energy that we're committing economic suicide with.

[A]

Yes, but that we leverage to create the society that we're in for the

[B]

last 50, 200 years.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We used coal to create everything around us, all of the prosperity disparities. But you can't.

[B]

You can't. Yep.

[A]

Huh? Yes.

[B]

So, yeah, there's so much. You're right in an ideal world that would not be political. But again, you know, there are the environmental factors and all of that, that there's reality to that. And therefore it becomes political because of the tragedy, the commons and all that, the, the externalities and the economic terms of people polluting and causing problems for everyone around them because they're doing that brute force work. How much are we going to let happen and where are we going to let it happen? We're not going to refine anything in California anymore. Gee, I wonder why gas prices are so high there.

[A]

Sure, and we're going to tax the crap out of it too.

[B]

But I got into energy because it, it is so fundamental to having a manufacturing base. It's bad enough that we're doing these stupid things on energy and we're watching our electricity bills double over the last few years because of dumb decisions and dumb mandates. But what it's doing to our industry is horrible. And at the same time we're talking about re industrializing our American prices have been bad enough. But I mean, you look at the UK and Germany and the incredibly stupid decisions they've made. And they're rapidly de. Industrializing because they're the highest energy prices in the world.

[A]

Because manufacturing, again, it goes back. No matter how advanced the manufacturing is, it's just energy in.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you need energy in at an affordable rate. And some of these operations need a huge amount of energy.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Manufacturing or steel mill, like an electric arc furnace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much energy that thing is consuming at any given time is crazy.

[B]

The one electric arc furnace I visited last fall used three times the energy of the entire chemical plant. I started my career just that unit operation. And I mean, this was a sprawling chemical plant with 10 giant reactors that made PVC and used three times energy.

[A]

Yeah. Tens of thousands of homes. Yeah, it's. But, but, but, but. Yeah. If we want to manufacture. Everything is about energy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Everything is about energy. And if you, if you're secure in your inputs with energy, you are in a much stronger position than somebody who's not, regardless of how much technology there is. And that, that's what I find so fascinating about AI. It's like, I don't understand AI, but I do understand energy at a high level and I do understand that this is going to put tremendous strain on an already strained grid.

[B]

Yeah, already is.

[A]

And there's already very large states right now saying we can't do any more of this.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Prices have already gone crazy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then we just don't have the capacity. And that to me is very interesting because it's like. And now you have a bunch of people talking energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because experts. Well, but, but now all of a sudden you have all these people interested in other forms because it's like, wait a minute. We need this to do what we need to do. Now it's important to us. Now it's hurting us.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We have. We've gotten away with it up until now because we've manufactured elsewhere.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But now that we're manufacturing with we're. It's like computing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Essentially.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We need to go find.

[B]

Right here.

[A]

Yeah. We need to find a bunch of energy.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that's where then the whole nuclear talk is.

[B]

Well, yeah. And the point revised and the point you don't want to miss there is they're looking at these supposed magical forms of energy, the wind and solar, and suddenly they're not so attractive.

[A]

Suddenly I haven't heard a single thing about them. I haven't heard.

[B]

Because you want a Data center running 247 and those things don't run 24 7.

[A]

I've seen a lot of data center projects. I haven't seen a neighboring wind farm get set up. It's always a neighboring gas turbine, typically is what they're powering most of these with. Almost all of them with is, Is gas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we have more gas than anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, let's use it. It's very cheap. It's always there when we need it. You can turn it on, you can turn it off. It doesn't require a ton of investment.

[B]

Here's something really funny. I've been following Boom Supersonic since their very inception. I wrote about them very early on, and they were going to have the next commercial supersonic airliner. You know what their focus today is? Gas turbines. Because they went into building their own jet engine. When Rolls Royce decided that he wanted no part of the business.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And lo and behold, that's an adjunct technology. And what they have already learned and established, like, you know what, we can build these things and they're, you know, years of backlog now to get gas turbines. We can jump right in and be building them. Really. So it's interesting how those kinds of shifts affect what the industry looks like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even things as crazy as having a supersonic airliner company became a become a gas turbine producer.

[A]

I mean, it makes sense. I was, I was looking forward to like, kind of better air travel. I don't think that's going to happen in my lifetime, unfortunately.

[B]

I think that's one where your despair is probably 100% well established.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I've done my research on that and I know it's just, it's just going to be miserable indefinitely. Yeah, yeah, it's. But, but, but like, where do you think the power thing goes in the States?

[B]

I think again, it becomes that triage thing of deciding, okay, what can we do now? And then what do we need to do for the future? And if we're smart, the future should be nuclear. What that looks like, I think is still an open question. There's so many new technologies and new ideas, but, you know, the basic reactor stuff we've gotten very good at, we've gotten very safe at, but we're still years away from really bumping that fleet up. So in the meantime, to say the least.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If we, if we acknowledge that that experiment in wind and solar has crashed and burned for very good reasons, then we're back to the mainstays. Right. Coal. Coal and gas.

[A]

But modern nuclear has crashed and burned as well.

[B]

It has. But what I see happening there is they've had their years in the wilderness for a lot of good reasons and a lot of bad reasons. But regardless, there's been a lot of great work going on. And I think while nuclear isn't going to be the answer for next year or five years from now, 10 and 20 years from now, there's no reason we can't be starting that wholesale switch. Sure. But in the meantime, we're going to need a whole heck of a lot more power. And gas turbines are already happening and will happen. I think coal will come back in a big way.

[A]

Yeah. It's like. So the power mix in the US it is some renewable, some hydro, but very small percentage, negligible, less than 10%.

[B]

Maybe hydro is a great solution. The, the reality is we have what we have. Well, there's not going to be new.

[A]

No. And the Hoover dams, I love the environmentalists now are against dams. They want renewable energy. But now, but now we're going to tear dams down. And I say pick a side. Yeah, well, pick a side. Tell me, tell me what you want.

[B]

That's what's so funny about it is going back to that expertise comment, you know, hydro is the best renewable there is. You know, it's, it's not 24 7, but in a lot of places it's darn close. And meanwhile, wind and solar are never going to be anything like 24 7. They're never going to be an economic solution.

[A]

Well, it's, it's, it's baseload energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You get it. You get a. Like, for people that don't understand power, you need a constant flow of power.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You need, you need. And electricity is witchcraft as far as I'm concerned. But you need, you have, you have peaks and valleys. So there's higher consumption. Lower consumption, but there's. To make a power grid work, there's always consumption that always needs to be fed at a consistent rate.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's the problem with solar and wind. It doesn't scratch the baseload itch.

[B]

No. And in fact, you, you essentially have to have 100% backup.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so talk about uneconomic. You've got a power system for which you have to build a whole other power system because it's insufficient and a

[A]

whole new distribution system as well. Because when you set up the wind farm in the middle of nowhere, you have to transport that electricity.

[B]

All that precious copper you were talking about.

[A]

Yes. And steel and clearing right aways and.

[B]

Well, yeah, that's the other thing is they're dispersed.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Power generators and so that right away thing becomes an even bigger nightmare.

[A]

Yeah. But that leaves like historically the US has been powered by coal.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

With some nuclear and then some gas.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then the shale thing kicks off 2008, 9. And then gas becomes like we find out everybody thinks we have a lot of oil. We have oil, but we've got crazy amounts of gas.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it's very cheap and it burns really efficiently. It's a really, really nice source of power generation.

[B]

And readily. Shippable.

[A]

And shippable. And there's already a distribution network for it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so that started to replace a lot of the coal fire.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Power plants. Because it's just better in most ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is why the US emissions have declined so substantially.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is in.

[B]

Switch from coal to gas.

[A]

Switch from coal to gas. And part of that my qualm is to all of the coal fired power plants are really old because we haven't allowed new power plants.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which would be way more efficient.

[B]

Yes. Cleaner.

[A]

Yeah. Way better when you're running on 50 year old technology like your 50 year old car. Right. Go sniff the exhaust.

[B]

Yeah. Watch the billowing clouds.

[A]

Kind of similar principle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I'm like, I'm, I'm curious about nuclear because at the large scale, I don't think it's possible anymore in the States with the current way of going about it. South Carolina is a brilliant example of how horribly wrong it can go. And anybody that says that's a win is delusional. It's probably the only people that made many, many, many, many, many, many monies on that deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the cost, like the cost for that energy now I've seen it played out mathematically. It's like it doesn't matter. Like because it was so expensive to build over two decades or whatever it was to get this thing going to begin with. Is it possible maybe with like you were saying, total dramatic shift in regulations and prioritization by the US Government.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But then there's the small modular reactor conversation as well. It's like, well, we don't need the big nuke plants anymore. We can just put this thing in a conex box and send it. Set it up behind Jerry's, Jerry's house. And we've got power for the town, which is intriguing, but it also has its challenges.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like people, I think are making it seem like this magical formula and it's like, I don't know if it's magical.

[B]

No. There are a lot of hurdles and regulations will be one of them. But that being said, I mean, I talked to a true guru just a couple weeks ago and I mean, he was talk about despair. He was very down on about nuclear, on nuclear in particular, energy in general, just because he's lived through the, the insanity and the stupidity. But that being said, he, he was bullish on some aspects, especially the new technology stuff. And so given his general level of despair, I wanted to take away those bright spots. And as we talked, he became more and more positive because of those kind of breakthroughs that the new technology folks are identifying and hopefully bringing to the forefront. I talked to a guy at Palisades nuclear plant, an hour south of where I live in Grand Rapids. They're restarting the original reactor that was shut down two or three years ago. That's happening literally as we speak. They're cranking it up and then it's Holtec doing this. They want to come in after they get that up and running and put in two of their small modular reactors. And so I think there are things happening where, yeah, today it's a very tough lift. But again, going back to that formulation of, okay, what can you do now that will work, Go do it. And I see, I see people doing that. I see discussions because of Palisades seeming to be a resounding success of bringing back a shuttered nuclear plant, first one ever happening in America. We've got a number of others that have potential for that. And so there are ways in the next few years to start chipping away at things. And I'm hoping Holtec does exactly what they plan and show that these SMRs are a viable solution. And then the way they're doing it is great. It's on an existing site, so there's no right of way. There's no protests, there's no. None of that. Even the infrastructure is already there, needs to be bumped up to handle the new generating capacity, but much easier than greenfield.

[A]

That makes a lot of sense.

[B]

So I think there are real possibilities for some superb solutions. And getting from here to there is doable, too. To your point about all these people who are all gung ho on wind and solar, who because of them being invested in actually needing reliable, affordable power, suddenly are getting away from that and bringing back gas and even coal. I think we're seeing the swing here in America. The question is, will that swing become pronounced enough where it can survive changes in political leadership? Because I'll say straight up, if Kamala Harris had won the election, we would be exactly where the UK And Germany were a year or two ago and we'd be heading in that same direction.

[A]

It's. But that, that's what's so frustrating is that again, energy security is, is a political issue. It's like, what are we doing?

[B]

And crazy.

[A]

That was, that was the confusing thing about wind and solar. Like, does it work? It works. I've seen it work. Like, I can't say it works.

[B]

It works.

[A]

It's the dumbest thing ever. Because it's. Yeah. When you put like there have been projects that are like crazy.

[B]

I'm going to disagree with, with one caveat and that is it is potentially the dumbest thing ever when it comes to grid supply.

[A]

When.

[B]

Okay, there are very good applications for both wind and solar.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I, the general grid.

[A]

No, my, my, but my. The whole thing breaks down when it's like, okay, this is all about the environment. I like the environment. I want the future to be better. I want my kids to be better off. Cool. Yeah, great. Sounds good. Why aren't we doing the nuclear thing? Like, like they couldn't really explain that. It's like, what. So explain the nuclear. Like we have nuclear.

[B]

Have they explained wind and solar?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But, but because we're not talking about the all in environmental impact of those. Well, the mining and the child labor and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They glaze over that. They glaze over that. But it's. That was the thing that I just couldn't reconcile was like, well, we already have something that's like way better than this that doesn't emit the emissions that are apparently the problem.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That we've figured out like a long, long, long, long time ago that we already have. Like, it's not theory.

[B]

Well, we have it broadly speaking as a nation and a world. Who doesn't have it are the wind and solar companies that are the donors to the politicians who are making us use wind and solar. Michigan's a great example. We, despite the very good news down the road at Palisades, which I think was a complete knee jerk by our governor because she realized if that shut down and she managed to shut down the coal plant she wanted to. Our state was going on blackouts.

[A]

There's no power.

[B]

Yeah. And so sudden panic is like, oh, okay, I've got oomph behind it from people with brains. To get this going, I'll jump in. But in the meantime, we still have their mandates of clean power by 2035. If Trump hadn't stepped in the coal plant 45 minutes from my house would be shut down right now. And we would have had blackouts during the winter, during that incredible cold snap we had. It's still, I mean, our attorney general is still suing to get that shut down because of these insane mandates that our governor and former Democratic legislation, legislators put through. So we've got 24 states, might be 25 now with similar mandates. So we got the national solution. Yes. But we've got a lot of states that are still invested in domestic.

[A]

But they, but, but the problem, like, the problem is their problem is the data center thing. Well, that's what's making.

[B]

They have to keep the data centers

[A]

away, which is crazy because now it's like, wait a minute, if we want the data centers, we need the power. And, but, and I think it's this political football for these people. Like, I've learned, like, the politicians aren't that smart. I think people give them a lot more credit than they deserve.

[B]

They're smart at making themselves rich.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At serving themselves a hundred percent. But they're like, they're, they don't, I think, understand how valuable power is. And they're one of the people taking it for granted, too. So they're like, well, we can just go get it elsewhere. This is politically popular, right? This is gonna keep me here.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So I'm gonna shut this plant down is what I think it is for them, but.

[B]

Oh, it is big picture. And I mean, Michigan's a great example there too. We're part of miso, the middle of the country's power system. And so it's very much, oh, you know, Indiana is going to take care of us. Sure. Wisconsin is going to take care of us. Well, maybe, maybe not, but. Because meanwhile, MISO has put out their warning that they're going to have a shortfall in a few years.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because they have to take care of themselves. Yes.

[B]

Well, we're all inputs to their total. And so if Michigan is shuttering all the coal plants, and by the way, they're also wanting to shut down gas plants. It's. It's insanity upon insanity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, we're going to be going backwards on our base capacity for generation right now as our power requirements continue to go up.

[A]

I also think to all this, though, there's something more. There's more devious stuff at play.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As well, for sure. And I think if you want to weaken an economy, you start to play around with energy like that. That's a really, really. That's very fertile ground.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

For Significant disruption. And so I think there's some of that there. Like Germany, I think, is a good example of this. The biggest supporter of renewable energy projects in Germany, one of the biggest was Russia.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Through proxies. Yeah, they're. They're not, you know, Russia's not saying we love, you know, renewable energy in Germany, but it's like they, the more the EU is dependent upon Russian gas and oil, the more control they have, the more control. And I think that's smart. Like, that's.

[B]

And the more freedom to do their.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Political malignancy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But I think that's like, that's, that's geopolitics.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's. That's a savvy move. You're looking at, you're looking at the board game and you're like, wait a minute.

[B]

And how savvy is it that you get people in these countries to do it for you?

[A]

That's. But that's. Yes, yes, yes. But they're. You weaponize these people's desire for power and money and control to then achieve. Like, I think it's. You have to go like above the base level politician. Like, it's not, it's not the governors, really. No, like the governors are just there to serve themselves and follow orders. And follow orders. Yeah. They're not in charge of anything. Like, you've got to go level after level after level after level up to be like, what's really going on here?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's like, if I was going to go degrade a society or a global superpower, energy is a pretty good place to start because that's. Because that's where it starts. Like, that's what creates the power in the first place. And the US in that regard is a legitimate threat because we have so much energy and so many resources.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. We're an even bigger threat just in the last year than we have been for years and years.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. But we have oil, we have gas, we have every mineral we really need. We've got lumber, we've got the most fertile farm ground in the world. We're using it for really stupid stuff. Like there's a whole other thing to go right about ethanol. And that is one of the most insane things we're doing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But it is some of the most productive farmland in the world. We can feed ourselves. We have. We have a coastline over here. We have a coastline over here. We've got Canada, which is very resource rich. Got Mexico, which is very resource rich. Below us, we have the Entirety of Latin America. Not to go like pillage, but as in trade.

[B]

Look at Venezuela, though.

[A]

Jury's out on that one. Well, I hope it works.

[B]

But is it, though? I mean, I don't know. There are already investments paying off that the naysayers a mere six months ago said this will never happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So is it going to be some magic. No. But is it going to be a piece of the pie? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so that, to me, is where I think we as a threat have grown is in these smart moves to shore up those important relations to help other countries get back to doing what they ought to be doing. I guarantee you that's a lot of. Why the already insane level of assault on a sitting president has ratcheted up and ratchet it up and ratchet it up is these world power brokers see that America is resurging and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that just can't be allowed.

[A]

Well, and I was on board. Then the Iran, for me, the Iran stuff started to unravel. Unravel things like, you can't throw the baby, baby out the bathwater.

[B]

Agreed. But do you let Iran get a nuclear weapon?

[A]

I, But I, but all that, I don't really buy a lot of that, too.

[B]

Here's, here's my Israel. I started this with, with Ukraine. I finally got to a point where I thought, you know what? There is so much insanity. Whatever I read about Ukraine, I am not going to believe, which is great.

[A]

Which is, which is really good.

[B]

I started in with the Iran thing with that philosophy of I don't care what anyone says, I'm not going to believe it. I'm going to wait and see what the facts on the ground show me.

[A]

Sure. Yes.

[B]

And that jury is still out.

[A]

Which is. Which is. But that's a great. Ukraine's a great example of.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Like, it's such a. But. But that's another wound. It's like you can't go touch it. Or else it's like just here you're talking about. No, there's something else here.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

This is not about Ukraine. Like, there is, there is way more to this puzzle. And this is. Yeah, that's. And it's, it's the same thing with the Middle East. It's like, but, but. Yeah, I don't take anybody's word for any of that. But especially I'm not going to take the US Government's word, Israel's word. Like, just trust us, guys. It's like, wait a minute, we tried that before. The Iraq thing. That didn't go very well. The world's not better for that one. So you used that card before, the whole just trust us card. And it's like that same argument doesn't work anymore.

[B]

No.

[A]

And, but I don't have the facts. I have no idea. Not a single clue.

[B]

What I do see happening, though, is regardless of other rationale, all these moves that have been made are weakening China. And so there's that element. And again, I don't want to make enemies of China to some degree. We're already headed that way. It would be marvelous if we could be just trading partners and working on making our own nations great.

[A]

That's kind of where I'm at. Yes.

[B]

That hasn't been China's approach, certainly, since we gave him most favored nation status. And so to me, anything we can do to counter some of their malignant moves while also shoring ourselves up to be able to make the smart moves for America is a plus. And that's what I see with some of Iran, some of Venezuela is. China increasingly gets more and more difficulties loaded on their already very difficult plate. People aren't talking about their economic challenges, but they're struggling. And so anything that can make them think about other things than, you know, doing cyber attacks on us and sending their people here to become our citizens and undermine our systems is a plus to me.

[A]

Yeah. But the China argument I struggle with as well, because it's like, we make ourselves the outstanding global citizen when we are. We are definitely not the outstanding global citizen.

[B]

Well, so I take the approach of what Winston Churchill said about capitalism. It's the worst economic system. Except for all the others.

[A]

Well, yes, but we put ourselves on the pedestal. We're the best, they're the worst. And they're this giant threat and, and, and maybe, but I also look at them, I'm like, they're just prioritizing themselves. And it's like, why, why can't. I can't. As an American, I can't go criticize another country. Well, clearly acting in their best interest,

[B]

I, I can criticize them.

[A]

You can criticize it, but you can also, like, understand it at the same time. It's like, well, that's all we do.

[B]

Well. And I don't criticize China without criticizing us too, because we've en a lot of their predations and.

[A]

Exactly. It's like, how much of, how much of it have we facilitated? And, and yeah, it was like all of our companies back in the day flocking to China to, like, help them figure all this out to Begin with and. And like, well, figure things out to go make a bunch of more money. Yeah, but for the sake of more money.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, it's giant margin.

[B]

And so I just, and to be fair, I try to. This is immensely difficult because I think very highly of myself, but I do try to put myself in the shoes of the people who made those decisions at the time they made them. Would I have done any different? I mean, when they open China up and I see this giant market and their condition is, yeah, bring your IP to me, let's go.

[A]

Yeah. And I've got shareholders that are like, hey, exactly. Are we gonna be making more money? It's like, you bet we're gonna.

[B]

All the financial people say this is the smart move. All the business people say this is the smart move. All the business schools and the government entities, oh, yeah, let's all go there and create a democracy. Yeah, yeah, we should have. You know, you said that about the, the card already being played. We did that with the Soviets when the wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed and they were going to be this next bastion of freedom. And that didn't work.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ask Eastern Europe how that went. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I think the, like, I like talking about this though, because these are the balls I just hit back and forth in my head all the time.

[B]

And you know, going back to your repeated comment about negativity and despair and all that, there's the element of when you study history and you study all the stupidity, it's the human condition. You know, we right now thinking so highly of ourselves, are doing stupid stuff. In 10 years from now, someone's gonna look back at what we did and like, what in the hell were these guys thinking?

[A]

Well, that's your life. It is like I was talking about. Yeah, I look at my, what I wrote a year ago, I'm like, what a moron. That's crazy.

[B]

I was a die hard free trader back in the day. And so what I, and I freely admit that it's like, you know, I'm not going to criticize anyone who, looking at the facts back then, thought like I thought. But the ones today who are still spouting the same thing after witnessing the destruction we've caused with that ironclad ideology without realizing, you know, free trade operates within rules. It operates when people are trading on an equal basis. And that was not the case ever. Through all of that, and now we find ourselves put on the back foot because of it. Are we still going to say, oh, that's still the ideal. We're still charging ahead with that recalibrate. Free trade's still a great ideal. And when the facts say it's the right move, it's the right move. But there are a lot of facts today in certain regards that say, you know what? Right now, that's not very smart.

[A]

Well, and that. But that's also something I feel like people just can't get their minds around. It's like something can be right and then it can be not right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like it's, it's a, it's a dynamic world that we're living in.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so something that, and I talked to the construction industry about this. It's like, guys, the operating system that's got us here, I can't go criticize it because it's got us here. But we all know, here's how the world has changed. We can go complain about it all day long and we can be right.

[B]

And we will.

[A]

Yes, and we will. And they are, trust me. And we can be right about all those complaints, but it just is what it is. And so we know this model then doesn't work with that, which is not going to get us the result we need.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So what's the only thing we can control here? I can't control the world. I can control me, though. And so maybe I need to throw some ideas out and find some new ones that serve me better.

[B]

That's why I love looking at companies that are functioning today, especially ones that have been around for years and years, because I guarantee you they've been through that very process again and again and again, is if we're still doing today what we did 20 years ago, we're probably failing. And so learning how they've made those shifts and what enabled them as a business entity just to be able to do that, I mean, obviously the history is littered with companies that failed, that weren't able to adjust, that weren't able to make changes and survive. Learn from them, but learn from the ones who have done it. And yeah, it's going to be a different answer today. But being able to realize that answer and then act upon it, that's vital.

[A]

You were talking about looking at the companies that are still around that are doing quite well.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that's what you did with this book.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

What is it? 20 something companies?

[B]

22 companies.

[A]

Yeah, 22 companies. How'd you pick these companies? What about them?

[B]

So a bunch of them were. Remember I was talking about last night with wanting to write about what we make. A bunch of them were Forbes stories.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was at some point, well along in that collection, I thought, you know, I grab a bunch of these and expand the stories. Each one can be a chapter of a book that dives much deeper into what I'm trying to do here.

[A]

I see, I see. So you were, when you began, you were expanding upon some of the stuff you'd already written about.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So what's, what's like an example of one of these stories that you expanded.

[B]

So like, Aaron's is a good example. Are you familiar with them?

[A]

No.

[B]

Snowballers, lawnmowers. They're in a little town called Brilliant, Wisconsin, half an hour south of Grant of Green Bay. And I mean, they've been around five generations.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

So it's, it's this whole series of interesting tidbits. I've known about errands forever. I mean, snowblowers where I grew up were kind of an essential if you had more than the driveway we had.

[A]

I grew up in Arizona, so you don't know.

[B]

So errands was a well known name up there. But then when I was at General Mills headquarters, I was on a project that involved our sourcing team. And one day the main guy, who is my contact in sourcing, brings another guy with him to a meeting and he's like, yeah, Nick just joined and he's going to be on the project with us. Nick Aarons, Interesting. Saw his name spelled the same way. We wound up traveling together. So we were at dinner one night and I'm like, so Aaron's. Is that any relation to the Aaron's family? He's like, yeah, yep. I said, oh, so what are you doing here? And he says, well, just because you have the name doesn't mean you get to work at Aaron's. And, you know, had some more discussions with him, but he didn't really seem to want to open up about that whole thing. He's like, yeah, I'm here. I'm gonna get some experience for a few years here, and then I'm gonna go get an mba. And, you know, hopefully when I finish that up, they'll figure I have the chops to do something.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

With the family company and that. And then I kept up with him and that's what he did. He went off and got an MBA in Amsterdam, of all places.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

And so as I'm doing that, I'm learning more about the company. And we wound up on back then Twitter together. We would tag each other in tweets. And I start seeing this other guy chiming in, Dan Ahrens on the Twitter feed and finally looked up and then discovered that this guy I've known now for like three or four years was the son of the CEO and eventually found, yeah, not only that, he's on tap to be the next CEO.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so then digging into him, I did a story for Forbes and learned that, you know, not only have they been this mainstay in Little Brilliant, Wisconsin, as an employer and local industry, but Dan also, you know, unfortunately not unique, but certainly among a far too small class of people who a quarter century ago realized the numbers were against us on the skilled trades and manufacturing workers front and got with the Brilliant school district and said, I want to help out with technical schooling. What can I do? So they started at the high school, established a STEM program and wound up building that out, got that to where they wanted it, went to the middle school, did the same, went to the grade school, did the same to where they now have K to 12, STEM, robotics, technical training, done stuff with the local community colleges. And he's like, yeah, you know, certainly was self interest in doing it. But I also realized if we have that problem, everyone has that problem. And so just felt like that's what we owed the community.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Just phenomenal story. And then I visited them a year ago, and they had just finished a project I'd heard about a couple years ago where they rejiggered the plant there in Brilliant to make it better for flow. Is the concept of just having things where they should be when they need to be there, you know, controlling inventory, all that. But they automated. They went to robotic welding cells and they had the people who were their manual laborers train up and be the operators and technicians for this stuff. And it's just every time I tap in, they've got some great story that ties in with my general manufacturing coverage. So.

[A]

And so, as you've covered stories like this, companies like this, you know, far more than 20 times, but over 20 times. For the book, what are. What are the. What are the themes? What are the common threads?

[B]

Those kinds of companies that stand the test of time are the ones that walk the walk when it comes to treating their people right. You know, so many. I mean, every company talks to talk, right?

[A]

Oh, boy, do they.

[B]

And yet, I mean, I have personally witnessed some companies that talked very good talk and did quite the opposite. I've had some personal experiences of being treated very badly by companies. And so to get in and see companies like that where. Like when I was touring with Nick and he was telling me about the robotic welding cells and I just offhand said, oh, well then, okay, who runs the cells? He's like, well, the same people. We had to do a bunch of training and upskill them. But, you know, they're the people we relied on in the past. They're going to be the people we rely on in the future. Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Even with automation like that. I think people with a company like that, it's a great example. People are so jaded, and I don't blame them for being jaded, but they think it's. Well, they're being. Taking robots, they're putting robots in to, to get rid of more people.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's never really the case with companies like this. I feel like the robot, it, it replaces a position that's kind of miserable in a, in a lot of ways. And then it also does it better. Like, it also creates a better product with.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like the robotic welding. It's. It's just long welds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Over and over and over and over again.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The robot doesn't wear out. It doesn't, it doesn't. Its body doesn't break down.

[B]

Yeah. It doesn't get bored. The tension doesn't wander.

[A]

Yeah. Perfect bead.

[B]

I did a story with a dump truck, the side dump trailer manufacturer in Iowa, and that's.

[A]

Which company is that?

[B]

I don't remember. Yeah, I have to look it up. Yeah. But, but I mean, they did that exact thing, the long seam weld on the body of the dump bed. They went to robots and they're like, we didn't lay anyone off. In fact, we're, we're still trying to hire skilled welders to do the more technical welds. But that weld, it was dumb to have people doing that because it was wasting talent. That weld takes no talent.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And it was the boring, you know, stuff where people would screw up just because it was boring. Like have a machine do that. Have your good welders focus on stuff that is rewarding.

[A]

And so when, when you say, though the ones that care for people, like, how does that materialize in a manufacturing setting?

[B]

A variety of ways. I mean, that's a good one. Where it's on the floor showing that respect for the people that. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna automate and you're coming along on this ride with us. But I mean, the, the kind of quintessential overall treatment of people and community story I always tell is with the guys up in Michigan, the Monti group I talked about last night, who have phenomenal businesses. And it's just their history is a story in itself. Starting with Dutch farmers who came over at the end of the 19th century and settled up in what is now resort central Michigan and established what became this manufacturing outfit and a whole bunch more. But, you know, they're very active in their Christian faith and they apply that in their business. You can see it in their leader manual. They got a book that thick. That's their little leader handbook. And you read through that, it's very clear that it's driven by those Christian values and that they truly expect their leaders to prioritize the people who they're serving. I was up there a little over a year ago, and they were sharing with me how they had owned this motel that wasn't doing anything right there on the edge of town. And so the other thing they're having trouble with was people coming out of halfway houses with substance abuse problems, which unfortunately is rife in rural communities. Oh, yeah, they would get them into a job, but they would fall back into their old ways, and then they'd lose the person they had trained and be this disaster scenario of someone not going on the right path. So they decided, you know, we need to be part of the solution. And so they took the. The motel and they made it into what they called the three quarter house. So people coming out of the halfway house who, when they went off and got an apartment, would go get with their old friends and get back into their substance abuse instead. They had stipulations, okay, we're going to provide this housing. You have to pay, but your pay is going into an account you can then use either for a down payment for a house or to help with your rent when you do get out of here. But while you're here, you're going to demonstrate that you're staying on the right path. You're going to continue with counseling that will help with both a substance abuse thing and a career counseling. And you're going to live in this place where obviously you're expected to behave in a certain way and help them get on that path. So that when they did then get into housing, that's more standard, they're already established in a new paradigm. And then completely separate from that, they showed me a neighborhood. So they were in sand and gravel to feed their cement concrete businesses. And they had a sand and gravel pit that was played out like, okay, what do we do with this? Well, Resort Central Michigan, like Resort Central everywhere, has an affordable housing problem. And so they established residential subdivision. One of the things they'd gotten into over decades was properties and modular housing. So they bring this skill that they have from a completely different part of the business and they build a subdivision using modular housing, which has that bad name. Right. People think trailer homes. No, these are gorgeous houses. It's just you're trucking in parts of the house and assembling it on the site and it's in the, you know, they cleaned up what used to be a sand and gravel area. It's this gorgeous spot right outside Petoskey and built these gorgeous houses. And they've got this unique structure where they own the property but the people own the houses. But that makes them cost like half what they would if it's a normal built up subdivision and getting young families into housing and you know, doing it so their employees had somewhere to go. But it's open to the community and so anyone can come in and take advantage of the more affordable and gorgeous housing they put up. So just that thing of taking what they've learned in all their businesses and applying it in ways to help both their employees and the broader community.

[A]

Isn't it interesting though, no matter what the business is, those that feel different are, I think, just the most human.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Very well put. People dealing with people as people.

[A]

I don't think it's that complicated in the grand scheme of things.

[B]

It shouldn't be.

[A]

It shouldn't be.

[B]

I'll tell you, I have, I have a real problem with the whole world of HR because to me, what HR has become since they left behind the world of personnel where it was truly just serving the people in what they needed to do the job and, and became this whole entity to itself and became something like what we talked about earlier where it's like they have to create their own problems to become a powerful part of the organization. And it's what's complicated now. There's whole other elements. It's not just the people in hr. I have very good friends in hr, but it's that combination of legal and regulatory, all these different elements. But it becomes this piece of the company that is, it's self serving. HR serves hr. Serve the people anymore.

[A]

And serves the company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes. They're not your friend.

[A]

No, they're not at any big company. At a, at a, at a small company. They should be there like we have, we have Jennifer, who, who there are the compliance functions of a business the compliance got to do them is crazy.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It only gets more. And they're never taking compliance away.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

You just have to check more boxes every year. That really make no difference.

[B]

And the bigger you get, the more

[A]

difficult it gets, the bigger you get. Yeah. Once you go over 50, there's other requirements. And then. Yeah, once you're into 100, 150, etc. Let me wake that up. So. And she does a great job with that. You need somebody to take care of that. But then a majority of the job is just like, just care for our people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if something's wrong, just talk to them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Just look out for people. If somebody moves to a different house, like, make sure we're sending them something and make sure we're. We're talking to their spouse.

[B]

I. I think of my. My first job at that chemical plant in Mississippi, and that's exactly what we would call HR today. Did you know I got in there and they made sure I had the down payment from my apartment. They made sure that. Okay, do you have transportation? Are you able to get your apartment set? You know, all the stuff you needed to be able to come to work and focus on work?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And, and, and would. Would, Would, Would teach and train people on legitimate life skills.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not hopeless training nowadays to, again, to just satisfy compliance requirements. And everybody knows it's a complete joke, but I think it's simple and it should be easy. But I think as a business gets bigger, it becomes harder and harder and harder because you have more and more forces pushing against the business to force it away from that.

[B]

I think that's a piece of what kind of made these companies I selected for the book stand out, is some of them are very big companies. And yet I would see that element with them, regardless of what kind of business they were in, regardless how big they'd gotten, is that they would retain that value, whether it was for their HR function or their leadership or their executives, that they truly valued their people.

[A]

There's. And you've been around in more than enough of these facilities, too. But I don't know if you agree or not, but, you know, within about 15 minutes, you can kind of feel it. You can. You can either feel a warmth or you can feel a chill almost for sure. Like, you don't need to. You don't need to learn all that much about a company. You just need to go to wherever they work.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And just observe and just. And honestly just feel it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And you can pretty quickly be like, oh, I I can, I can get a feel for what this company is like.

[B]

As you were talking, I was thinking about my tour of the steel mill last fall and they don't want me to mention their name, but you know, small family owned steel business. And we're touring through the plant and I mean, my host was senior executive and we get to control room where they're doing the forging. And I mean, you know, this is a monstrous operation with very few people. So we hadn't seen a lot of people through the tour. But we get into this control room, there's a guy immediately doing the forging operation and we start chatting with him a little bit. And then a couple other guys wound up coming through. And this top level executive knows these guys by name and as he's chatting with a couple of them, he's talking to them about their families. And it's that exactly what you just said. You could tell right away, you know, this guy cared about these people as people. He knew them by name, he knew their families. And unfortunately you don't have that in a lot of places.

[A]

No. And you can't fake that.

[B]

You cannot fake that.

[A]

Yeah, you again, you, you just have to watch that interaction once because it's either going to be that or you're going to see all the, all the workers, quote, unquote. Look at these leaders. Like, who the fuck are these guys? You know, almost like they're from a different planet.

[B]

You get, or the time nervous or you get that dog and pony thing, right. If it's an executive, it's not about showing the operation as it truly works day to day. It's about, yes, oh, the executives here, we're going to, we're going to clean everything up. We're going to make it look right,

[A]

which I don't, I can't stand.

[B]

Oh, that's horrible.

[A]

And I do my best to just stay as far away. There was an opportunity recently, I was like considering it, but then something else way better came up and it was like a dog and pony thing. And I knew what it was going to be and I was like, I don't want anything. I just want to see the operation as it is on like a Tuesday.

[B]

That's what I don't understand is if you're in a leadership role, you've got to be able to see that that's happening. And if you're not.

[A]

Yeah, you'd like to think so.

[B]

Well, maybe I'm, maybe I'm the one being too optimistic.

[A]

Well, I just think they're so insulated.

[B]

Well, there is definitely that. But honest to God, if you know anything about plants and you're going into plants and every one of them spick and span and everyone's clean and all the operations are perfect, at some point you got to stop and say, okay, guys, come on.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. But again, the human condition, you start to buy it. You start to buy it.

[B]

Oh my gosh, I'm so good at my job.

[A]

Yeah. Like, this is an observation I've made like a lot of senior executives at very large companies, you would think that they're the best and brightest. That is not the case. It's, it's, it's also, it's like I've, I've seen it most clearly in the US Military. You can get to like Major colonel about there ish. Depending on the branch. Past that point, you're a politician and so like you're a soldier up to that point. And there's a lot of really, really savvy guys that will retire at that level. And it's like, why are so many of these just brilliant minds retiring at that level? You go your whole career, wouldn't you want to go to general? But it's like, no, I don't want to go to general. Because then you have to play this other game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think big corporations, companies are the exact same way. Like, you do have to be good. You have to be good enough. But it's really like who's the best on following directions and instructions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And especially when a board's coming in to appoint a CEO or a C suite. You know, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're getting a C suite squared away. Is a public company. They're not incentivized to go hit it out of the park.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You just deliver the next quarter. Yep, deliver the next quarter. Deliver that. We don't need anything. Just keep the train on the tracks, man.

[B]

Yeah. Now you're getting into a whole other aspect of the earlier problems we talked about around things that are off the rails that can drive you nuts. Is that short term focus we have?

[A]

Well, yes. Yeah, but they're, but, but like the more time I've spent around these people, it's like, wait a minute. But some of these people aren't.

[B]

It's a, it's a great point around incentives though, right? Is that for even, even if you're a brilliant guy or girl who is in one of those C suite roles, if your incentives are to deliver that next quarter and not Think about the long term health of the company or your ability to produce 10 years from now. Yeah, you're going to act on those.

[A]

And I've got the package.

[B]

Yeah. Constantly happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, you know, that's another part of that malignancy that's torn down our productive capabilities is. Yeah. We're going to, instead of investing our capital in productive assets, we're going to go buy back a bunch of shares and make the stock price look great because that's my incentive for the next quarter.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stock buybacks and dividends.

[B]

I know, whole other topic that's a

[A]

whole, that's, oh man, that fires me up.

[B]

But you know, interestingly enough, a whole bunch of these companies that landed in my book are family owned, privately owned. And that's what you see is companies that have existed for all these years have done so because they don't have those outside forces forcing the short term

[A]

thinking because that's the only way to, I think, achieve what they have and to retain that human component to these businesses. And that's what made America and the

[B]

ability to think not only beyond yourself, but beyond your generation.

[A]

Yes, yes. Yeah. And like the big company brand too, it does create this weird, like I've, the older I've got, the more I've picked up on it. Like, it creates this dynamic almost this like false sense of importance because people start to complain, conflate the brand and the weight. Like, oh yeah, I watched it, it was funny. Like, like the first example that comes to mind is like my brother, for example, he went to go work for. I think it was, it was a big, big, big company, really big company. They make, they have, they have yellow trucks everywhere. And, and he gets like, you know, like the airline deals and the, the car rental deals and then, oh, you're with so and so company. When you get to the hotel check in. Well, you guys are, are automatically gold, you know, and you just like, you start to buy into this sense of importance. Like, wait a minute, I, you know what? I am important. But it's not really you. It's this weight of this giant brand and the money that the brand carries behind it that creates that. And I think the people that I really get along with are the ones that, like, I'm not buying that. I'm not drinking a drop of that Kool Aid. That is, that is my demise. That is, that is, I, I want nothing to do with it. It's the, it's the poison apple. But then you see some people, because it's so comfy and cozy and alluring. Oh, it's so luring. You're like, yeah, no, this is. You know what?

[B]

I have arrived.

[A]

I am kind of a big deal. Yeah. I like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've bought into the same. I bought into that, too, when I was younger in business. It's like, you know what?

[B]

Yeah. I worked for General Mills. I guarantee you there was plenty of cachet there.

[A]

Yeah. But when you're in a. Also within those. Those family businesses or smaller businesses, there's not as. As much room to hide as. Well, like there's.

[B]

Especially in manufacturing.

[A]

Especially. Yeah.

[B]

I call it the crucible of the business world.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

Because in the service economy, you can do stuff and not be very good at it and still be just fine. If you're making things, I mean, they're either going to be good enough that people pay you a price where you, you know, make back what you put into it, plus a profit and you're able to pay all your people and you survive, or you're not. And if you're not, you're going right out of business.

[A]

Well, that. But that's why I like construction as well.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's like you build the bridge or you don't build the bridge. It's a meritocracy. And it's just.

[B]

It's those things we talked about before that are the kind of undergirding the economy, the mining, the manufacturing, the petroleum and gas, the agriculture. Those are all things where you can't hide because you're either growing crops or you're pumping oil or you're digging out rare earths or you're not. And if you're not doing it well enough, you're just not there anymore.

[A]

What's your. What's your hope for this? This book?

[B]

Twofold. One is tying in with what we've already talked about, and that is just with the broader audience showing that we still make stuff and lots of cool stuff and lots of cool people doing it. And just great stories that are tied in with the history of America. One of the companies in my book is Revere Copper. And you know where that name comes from. We just celebrated the anniversary of his ride.

[A]

Yeah, I could guess. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And he is the founder of that company. Paul Revere founded Revere Copper.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And it has been a going entity constantly from Paul Revere's time to now.

[A]

I had no idea.

[B]

I had no idea till a buddy of mine introduced me to him. And I mean, you know, the history, alignment I'm a history buff, so. Yeah, that alone was just compelling.

[A]

What's that orientation like? Yeah, the history section.

[B]

But, you know, you look at this and talk about writing ups and downs. You know, this is a commodity company and, you know, they've been through the wringer. And I mean, I use them as a unique example of burning the furniture. They got to a point where they were on the cusp of disappearing because their market had gotten so terrible. And they used to be Revere Copper and Brass. They did away with a whole half of their company because they needed to focus on where they thought they could succeed. And they did that successfully. They're now an esop, which I think is another whole area of discussion that I've gotten into researching and being a huge believer in. But, I mean, they have weathered the storm and of course, copper now is a good place to be, so they're doing much better as a company. But again, that treatment of people and, you know, being very upfront with their team at the time, things were the worst. That, guys, we're on the edge here and we need everyone's help. And they did pay cuts and schedule cutbacks and everything to survive, and they made it. There's a lot of companies that have been through that that didn't make it. And so there's an element of luck, but there's also that piece of having been through tough times and knowing what you have to do to make it and then getting yourself on an even better footing. So hopefully you don't get yourself in that situation again. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, company that's literally been around since before the country really even existed.

[A]

It's incredible. With a different use for copper in the early days. Well, so most of it was brass,

[B]

when you think about it. Paul Revere was actually a silversmith. So, you know, the focus has completely shifted over the centuries, but the idea of the business hasn't.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

It's amazing. Yeah. So that is the blessing of what, you know, number one, getting the opportunity with Forbes and then having it go in this direction of. Yeah, I want to make sure we're getting these stories out there for people to know. Yeah, we are still making things. There are still people doing amazing things and really tied into our history. The other piece is more for my people in manufacturing, and we already talked about it, that is, you know, there are great things happening in the technology world. I think AI is going to make a huge difference in what we do in manufacturing. Automation has already been making a huge difference when you were talking about things not changing dramatically in the manufacturing world. Things have changed dramatically during your lifetime. Not everywhere, but, I mean, go walk through a car plant today versus what it looked like 30 years ago. Yeah, it's pretty different.

[A]

It's. It's pretty different. But what's striking, I wasn't in car plants, but I was just in excavator factories the other day. It's still striking how many people there

[B]

are like, well, and that's business to business. I mean, there's. One of the companies in my book is one of the first ones I wrote about because it's from my hometown, Stormy Cromer. They make this winter hat that people who know the name, know the name, and it's extremely manual. The only things they've automated are fabric cutting, some of the sewing and embroidery, but it's people on sewing machines doing most of that hat because it's this very complex construction that. I mean, the. The guy who was CEO when I first interviewed him, who I went to church with, his kid was telling me how he was on the board of trustees with Michigan Tech University, and he got with a retired professor. He's like, you know, take a look at this. What can we do to automate this? And the guy not only took a look at it himself, but he took it back to the school and had some folks there look at it. And they came back and said, nothing

[A]

is what it is.

[B]

You're making it the best way you can make it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So instead they focused on, okay, then how can we make life as good as we can for the people who are doing that work? So that was everything from, you know, ergonomic chairs to lighting and just improvements in the workplace. And so I want people who are in manufacturing to know, yeah, it is great to look at current technology and what the future has on offer. And those are opportunities you're going to have to grab onto to survive. But in the meantime, don't forget history and don't forget what these companies teach us. And that main thing being, especially in manufacturing, where it is always going to be a difficult job because you have to deliver the goods all day, every day. If you're not putting people first, you won't be one of these companies that has five generations under their. Under their belt.

[A]

Yeah. And going to the workforce thing in general, like, I'm just. The further I get, the more and more I believe in. That's the future.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Is these companies that, like, I respect a lot of these big companies, but I would never Work for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you couldn't pay me enough to go to work for a lot of these companies. It's just, I just don't want to be a part of that. And I don't think I'm unique in that sentiment. I think it's the whole, this whole next generation that's like, I don't really want to be treated like a dog, you know, I want to be treated like an individual, like a human.

[B]

That is a great point. I think, you know, we talked about some of the negative effects of plenty, but I think one of the positives is our young people who are kind of confident in they're gonna have what they need to survive. Where certainly in my generation we would put up with a lot of crap from a company.

[A]

Yeah, well. And if you got a, if you had a 40 year career, that's it. That's all. A consistent paycheck. I can't complain, man. This is as good as it gets. And maybe it was for that time period.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, but now there's, there's just so many options and it's so competitive.

[B]

It's, it's. Well, it's competitive. And I would submit that our young people are just of a different mind where it's like, you know what, if I'm just going to go out and be poor to avoid being abused, I'm going to do that where my generation wouldn't have done that. Yeah, we would have said, you know what, it's part of the job. We're just going to suck it up and do the job well.

[A]

And we're called entitled for it. Which there are some entitlements there certainly, but the boomers are the most entitled generation of them all.

[B]

Oh boy. There's a whole other.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're the ones criticizing us for being entitled. It's like, okay, all right, let's compare notes here because, huh. Yeah, but, yeah, it's, it's, but, but again, it's, it's a competitive environment. Business is competitive. And it's like, if you can't compete on the playing field that is workforce, that's your fault. That's on you. Like, like you as a business owner, you as leadership, that's your responsibility. And so I, I don't, I don't feel all that bad.

[B]

And yet it's just, it's mind boggling to go in and see that there are still all these horrible practices and horrible things going on within companies that will say, oh yeah, our biggest challenge is getting the people we need to do the job. Yeah, like, well, stop sucking. Yeah, how about that?

[A]

Crazy. Crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've come to the same conclusion. I'm like, see, this is where I've started to really think about this. It's like, wait a minute, like what if we just suck? What if, what if, like what if I've been facilitating this talk track that is like, oh, poor us, we need more people. What are we going to do? Like, what if that's not the problem here, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

There's an element within the skilled worker kind of lobby, I guess, to use a word, that is fraught with government. But it's the broader business group that is focused on that and they're saying we don't have a skilled trades gap, we have a culture gap. And I initially said, well, that's dumb. We do have a skilled trades gap because we've been denigrating trades for generations and we don't have the numbers going into it. But their point is this, that that's part of the culture problem. But there's also a culture problem within the companies where, you know, you want to have skilled workers and you want to pay them the same as what you would pay anyone. You want to have skilled workers and you want to treat them like crap. These people are going through the tough work of learning a trade that takes maybe not decades, but takes years to really get good at and takes constant focus to remain good at. And you want to treat them like crap and then you want to complain about, well, no one wants to work for us.

[A]

Yeah. And this is where I'm starting to like, I'm starting to really think about this because it was again, another company that I will not name, but a giant company that controls the world. They're now really promoting the trades and it's like, but I could make a pretty good argument of you guys like creating this whole, oh yeah, world that we live in in the first place. And now you're, you're the, the, the, the champion of the trades. Like there's something off about this and that's like, I don't know, maybe they're genuine but, but just something, it's like something doesn't smell right here and, and all these people now are hopping on this bandwagon that is like, oh, it's like really about blue collar and it's really about the trades, this and that. But I think it's all just self serving because they just need these people to build the data centers that they need and the Infrastructure that they need, the manufacturing capacity that they need to allow them to keep doing what they're doing. Like I don't think any of it is actually in service of the trades, which I, and I'm seeing that that kind of, it's kind of shifted in the past like even year or two where it's just become like mainstream conversation. And I'm like, like even Wall street, you know, it was like front page of the Wall Street Journal not even that long ago. And not that the Wall Street Journal is like, you know, the, the gold standard anymore, but, but it's still pretty big deal. It's like, whoa, this is mainstream and Fox News and this big company and this big company. But it's like I, I, I just immediate was like this is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then I was like, is it great what's going on here? Like what's, what's happening here? They didn't just have this change of heart. That's like, you know what it really is, all these hard working people that keep my life so comfortable. I don't think that's what happened. It's, it's now we need all these people to continue facilitating my life.

[B]

So gonna be more talking the talk.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's not what's going on, but that it feels like it in

[B]

a lot of ways. I think anyone who's familia with the business world will say right up front there is absolutely an element of just the self serving because there's always that element.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, but at the same time, like I did a story on these boot camps, heavy metal summer boot camps, that this, this woman who worked in the construction industry on the west coast just saw the problem coming and she took it upon herself. She partnered up with a guy at a competitor's company and said yeah, we ought to do something. And they started with like one boot camp, one summer in California. Now they've got, they're in I don't know, 30 some states and Canada. Dozens and dozens and dozens of these boot camps. They've got DeWalt not, not just giving money, but actively involved. I mean I talked to Maria Ford from DeWalt, who she's been herself, I mean she's VP of Operations at DeWalt and she's going to these boot camps and working with these students. So bringing in high school students just to see what it is that construction trade workers do. And they're doing a little bit of hands on stuff, you know, just basic, using a tape measure, using a level and Just getting their hands on the tools and they're out there connecting and making a difference with the coming generations who will have to fill those jobs.

[A]

Which I have respect for.

[B]

Exactly. So I look at that kind of thing. That's how I tell who is really invested and who's just talking the talk. I mean, those guys are walking the walk and it's just getting bigger and bigger by the year. Well.

[A]

And those guys that, that are doing something in the real world. I think this is another thing that I saw recently at a trade show. It's like we're solving this problem with this really cool technology. And it's like, I don't know if I have the heart to break it to you, but no one gives a shit. Like a 15 year old will not care about this. This isn't. This isn't it. This isn't it. And that you're not actually doing anything. You're not actually solving any kind of problem whatsoever.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Get into schools.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And the amount of people talking about we need to be in schools again, I'm just like, I'm just getting so tired and I am looking in the mirror, I'm like, damn it. I'm one of the guys that's been facilitating some of these messages for years. And it's like, I am so tired. We need to get into schools. Great. When's the last time you've been in school? Yeah.

[B]

When are you going to.

[A]

When are you going? How about it?

[B]

I just went and toured the Kent Career Tech Center. So Kent county is where Grand Rapids is and they've got this campus on the east side of town. I had heard all about it. The school my kids went to, they send students there, but I didn't really know too much. I knew they're into supporting trades and that kind of thing, but I finally got connected up with their, their director over there and he invited me out. And I mean, I go to this place, it's this sprawling campus. It's huge. They have 3,000 students going through there every day. And I mean they've got the basics, but you know, I walk through this mechatronics lab, I walk through their CNC training lab, their welding shop and is all just the latest and greatest. And they've got all these local companies that are coming in, helping them establish the right stuff to train people well. But then also saying, yeah, these are the skills that we're going to need in people that we're going to hire. And oh, by the way, yeah, here's a guy retiring who can instruct in welding. Why don't you hire him?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so you've got that happening locally and you just never hear about it. And to me, we also need to be publicizing that. You know, these companies need to be marketing that. Yes, we are in kctc. We're actively involved to show other companies what being invested really looks like.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you talking about all this stuff. I think you're doing great work, like I said.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Followed it for years.

[B]

Me too. I mean, you know, when, when the invitation came, you made, I think the

[A]

first half of my year very way, way too generous.

[B]

No, I mean, I shared with you last night as a kid was Die Hard Tonka Toy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crazed. And so, yeah, to this day, anything heavy equipment catches my eye. So every time you post anything, it's like, oh, man, that is so freaking cool.

[A]

We'll get you more involved with. With the dirt world.

[B]

Absolutely. I'd love to.

[A]

Much love.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Right on. Thanks for coming. And then the, the book, how do people find it?

[B]

Yeah. So the best way is just connect with me on LinkedIn because I'm going to be getting everyone on the. You're going to show me how to publicize it on LinkedIn. Right. And so connect with me there. You'll see it there. And I've got a website is manufacturing talks.com. so find it there. I'm on YouTube, manufacturing talks.

[A]

And that's the title of the podcast as well. Yep.

[B]

And substack, also manufacturing Talks.

[A]

So excellent.

[B]

Try to keep that consistent.

[A]

Right on. Well, thanks for coming.

[B]

Thank you. It's been great.