Your Office is an Operating System w/ Sean Dineen (DT 465)

Summary

Dirt Talk Podcast: "Your Office is an Operating System" w/ Sean Dineen (DT 465)

Date: July 30, 2026
Host: Aaron Witt (BuildWitt)
Guest: Sean Deneen (Founder, Iron Age Office)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the transformative power of office design, reframing the workspace from mere furniture into a key operating system for company culture, especially in the construction industry. Aaron Witt hosts Sean Deneen, the founder of Iron Age Office—a company which began with a single desk listed on Etsy and evolved into a premier U.S.-based furniture manufacturer serving construction businesses nationwide. Together, they discuss authenticity, the entrepreneurial journey, why physical spaces matter deeply for culture, and why contractors need to move beyond "bank lobby" offices if they want to attract and inspire talent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Construction People Stand Out

• Humility and Authenticity:
  • Construction requires direct engagement with the real world, instilling humility, adaptability, and groundedness (01:48–03:22).
  • “There’s a grounding to that, that other industries don’t have.” —Aaron (01:59)
  • Many successful construction owners have worked up from the field (03:16–03:52).

2. From Etsy Desk to 80,000- sqft Workshop

• Sean's Unconventional Path:

  • Arrived in the U.S. at 23 from England, coached soccer, faked a product catalog using digital renders (07:36–09:06, 32:56–36:01).
  • Found a business partner through a host family; started by marketing and selling, while others built the products (33:03–36:01).
  • Scaled when commercial companies began placing larger orders.

• "Fake it till you make it" in Action:

  • Used photo-realistic digital renderings and mockups to establish credibility before having a real catalog (35:47–36:01).

3. The Office as an Operating System, Not Furniture

• Design Shapes Culture and Community:

  • Contractors often invest in sterile, impersonal offices (“looks like a bank”) rather than environments fostering comfort, belonging, and storytelling (06:06–07:06).
  • “Beautiful design helps facilitate culture and the company’s goals.” —Aaron (06:48)

• Offices Tell a Story:

  • Iron Age Office crafts not just furniture, but elements of a company’s narrative. Their story (“from nothing to American dream”) becomes embedded in clients’ stories (07:13–07:52).
  • “Every space should tell a story.” —Sean (07:15)

4. Building Business by Being Unapologetically Yourself

• Comfort with Uniqueness:

  • Both Aaron and Sean discuss finding comfort in their oddities as a key to authenticity and entrepreneurial resilience (12:00–13:01).
  • Experience shapes self-awareness; being “weird” can be an asset in business.

• “We are the music makers”:

  • Sean quotes Willy Wonka to represent their ethos of creativity and experiential workplace design (14:17–14:22).

5. Success in Business: Consistency, Trust & Letting Go of Ego

• Relentless Consistency Over Talent:
  • Aaron attributes progress to outworking and outlasting others, not innate brilliance (20:29–21:49).
  • “I can out-consistent almost anybody.”—Aaron (20:43)
• Hire Smarter, Trust More:
  • Not being the smartest is an asset: lets you hire experts and let go of control (22:15–22:35).
  • Both agree that giving trust to team members from the start yields the best results, even though there's occasional risk of being let down (55:13–58:09).
  • “The pros I get from giving people trust…is way, way more than the negative.” —Sean (56:13)

6. The Iron Age Office Edge

• U.S. Craftsmanship & Differentiation:

  • Made in America matters more than ever—especially post-pandemic and during global supply chain disruptions (40:41–42:28).
  • Iron Age sees itself as reviving craftsmanship, offering clients both a story and tangible, high-quality products. No true competitor doing custom wood and steel at their scale in the U.S. (28:03–28:32).

• Cultural Signal & Recruiting Tool:

  • Offices that feel “badass” attract next-gen talent and set companies apart (26:29–27:24).
  • “Your office is part of you. You literally spend so much of your day there.” —Sean (26:53)
  • Unique, story-driven environments help construction companies compete for talent and recruit younger workers.

7. How Experiences Trump Functionality Alone

• Deliberate Experience Design:

  • Every touchpoint—landscaping, signage, visitor greeting—becomes part of the company's story (13:52–14:57).
  • Inspiration drawn from Disney, restaurants, and even small details like themed trash cans—design at its best is immersive (82:26–83:36).

• Hospitality as Differentiation:

  • Book recommendation: Unreasonable Hospitality about creating extraordinary, memorable customer experiences by sweating every detail (80:39–81:32).

8. The Power and Pitfalls of Trust

• Risks of Leadership Burnout:

  • Trauma and responsibility as a business leader—Sean shares a recent hardship losing a key employee and how leadership means looking after yourself, too (93:36–99:32).
  • “If I’m not happy, then that’s a problem.” —Sean (95:20).

• Modeling Mental/Physical Health:

  • It's not just about telling your team to care for themselves, but visibly showing you care for yourself as a leader (96:01–97:27).

9. Community, Vulnerability, and Abundance Mindset

• Construction Industry’s Willingness to Share:
  • The Dirt World and related communities challenge the old model of “keeping secrets,” fostering openness and learning (76:13–77:09).
  • “It’s an awakening that…we don’t need to be secretive with our tools and our successes and our failures. Let’s share it.” —Sean (76:38)

10. Why Spaces and Physical Touch Matter More than Ever

• Pushback Against Remote-Only Work:
  • Despite operating remotely at BuildWitt, Aaron argues that people crave real, communal spaces—offices as community centers will gain renewed importance (85:10–86:54).
  • “A space can foster something extraordinary if it’s well-designed. And if it’s not, it just doesn’t.” —Aaron (86:18)
• The Office as Magnet for Culture:
  • Offices shouldn’t be afterthoughts or sterile “bank lobbies.” They must be designed to create energy and belonging.
  • Contractors who “refresh their office” and make it meaningful will outperform.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Offices as Culture Engines

• “Your office isn’t furniture, but an operating system for culture.” —Sean (Intro/Episode Theme)
• “Beautiful design…helps facilitate culture and facilitate the company’s goals.” —Aaron (06:48)

On Trust & Teams

• “I’m going to give you 100% of my trust off the gate. It’s up to you to lose that trust.” —Sean (55:54)
• “If you completely trust people, they won’t fuck it up…They want to be part of the tribe.” —Aaron (57:19)

On Standing Out in the Industry

• “We are the music makers, and the dreamers of dreams.” —Sean (14:17, quoting Willy Wonka)
• “We revive craftsmanship.” —Sean (42:30)

On Authenticity & Vulnerability

• “I have a fucking aquarium at my desk. That’s not a normal person thing.” —Aaron (13:06)

On Leadership Growth

• “Business is one of the best ways to figure out who you are.” —Aaron (15:29)
• “You learn who you are by doing, not by sitting around having fucking self-care days.” —Aaron (18:01)

On Employee Experience

• “Every new person coming to your business, day one, that’s an experience. There’s one first impression they get coming into your business. What’s it going to be?” —Aaron (79:10)

On Experiences & Details

• (On Disney World) “They’ve designed the trash cans to create such a seamless experience.” —Aaron (83:01)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Construction People/Company Origin: 00:00–09:06, 32:56–36:01
• Why Office Design Matters: 06:06–08:07
• Authenticity, Parental Trust, and Finding Yourself: 09:09–16:04
• Business Growth, Consistency & Leadership: 20:29–24:25
• Iron Age Office: Differentiation & US Focus: 27:58–33:33, 40:41–42:30
• Branding, Storytelling & America Made: 40:41–44:00
• Trusting Others & Letting Go: 54:42–58:27
• Challenges of Leadership & Wellbeing: 93:36–99:32
• Experience, Community & Office of the Future: 85:10–87:12; Disney examples 82:26–83:36
• Event/Community Impact & Openness: 76:13–77:09

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Memorable Moments

• Sean’s “Willy Wonka” Ethos: Iron Age creates tours/experiences that surprise designers by being unlike any factory they've seen—tying in creativity, pride, and American-made craftsmanship (14:17–14:57).
• Dirt World Table Marketing Move: Sean’s proactive decision to build a centerpiece table for the Dirt World Summit, dominating attention and exhibit real estate:
  • “If you don’t ask, you don’t get…We just...market the shit out of it before it even gets there.” —Sean (50:16–50:46)
• On Tragedy & Leadership Support: Sean describes the loss of a key team member and the importance of both personal vulnerability and organizational resilience (93:36–99:32).

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Closing Thoughts

This episode underscores how spaces shape culture and why the best construction companies are moving beyond generic, disconnected offices. Iron Age Office’s growth story illustrates the power of authenticity, relentless action, and the willingness to lean all-in for your team and your clients. Trust, experience, and deliberate design—both of spaces and business relationships—are the new competitive advantages.

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For More

• Iron Age Office: Instagram (per Sean: “go look at our Instagram because it’s badass” [103:25])
• BuildWitt / Dirt Talk Links: Website

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Summary by Dirt Talk Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

[Aaron]

This episode of the Dirt Talk podcast is with Sean Deneen of Iron Age Office. He's the founder of Iron Age Office, a furniture company he built from a single desk listed on Etsy while coaching soccer. As a 23 year old Brit who had just arrived in America with a graphic design degree and no plan, he faked a full product catalog using digitally rendered images until the real orders started to come in. He grew the business to 60 employees and an 80,000 square foot workshop, making everything in the U.S. and he quietly became the construction industry's most unexpected vendor. In this episode, he reveals why your office isn't furniture, but an operating system for culture. And why the contractors, still treating their workspace like a bank lobby, aren't just missing a design opportunity. They're leaving their people with nothing to believe in. Huge fan of Sean and Iron Age Office. They've been a big supporter of dirtworld since the beginning. It's been a natural fit for us. I'm a big believer in office space, in how a space can inform culture and impact a business overall. Oftentimes it's an afterthought, which I think is a huge missed opportunity. And Sean is doing his best not only to be a great example for other people to follow when it comes to business, but to provide construction companies with far, far more inspirational and deliberate furniture. So with that seems odd, but you'll enjoy this episode. Here it is. Construction people, I just find are better.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In a lot of ways. I think it's because they're. There's an inherent humility required to do what they do.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To build stuff in the real world.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

There's a grounding to that that other industries don't have.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

I think people are just really disconnected from the world around them.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which then makes them into monsters in all different ways.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And you can't be disconnected in construction and especially self performed construction. So you have construction and then you have those that self perform that actually do the work themselves.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Whereas like, I kind of stay away from general contractors that just manage work.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And they don't have to be like this, but they're. They're just a pain in the ass to deal with. And even now I'm invited out to stuff all the time. I'm just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. I've turned down more stuff in the past six months than I have ever with all this, all these companies. I'm like, I just don't want to deal with you guys. I want to deal with those doing the work. Because then I think there's. It's the. Even the next level of humility.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Your people are doing the work.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because there's just so much outside of your control.

[Sean Deneen]

You.

[Aaron]

You. You. You're dealing with the weather. You're dealing with vehicles driving by you. Live traffic. You're dealing with other companies trying to do stuff. Utilities. Like. There's just so many variables, and every project is different. You can't believe you have it all figured out.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because it's just the world in which you operate doesn't even allow for that, if that makes sense.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I feel like the way is most. I'd be curious if there was, like, a stat of, like, owners of successful construction companies. What is, like, the percentage of those who own the company that actually, like, was on the ground in the dozer and work their way up and then started their own, you know, versus. Because that's. That's what. That's. That's why I think they're the best people to work with because they've walked the walk.

[Aaron]

You know, it's most everybody.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I mean, it's. Most everybody has been in the field in some way.

[Sean Deneen]

Someone's last name. Because someone maybe was working for a different construction company, and they were like, I could do this. Let me go on my own. And they just build and build and build.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's cool. It's. It's. I mean, not to dog on other industries, but kind of to dog on other industries. Every time I go into a different world, I have to deal with like, a. I don't know. Yeah. Like the real estate world or lawyers or these other worlds. I'm just like, oh, no. I could be stuck here my whole life.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And thank goodness I'm not, because I couldn't do this, man. Like, I couldn't be with these people. I just.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I couldn't do it. Yeah. No, it's. It's been cool to see you guys do the construction thing.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think the first time I saw you was with Rosso.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes. Probably.

[Aaron]

You did a table for Rosso.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, we did that whole headquarters.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah. Well, and then. Then, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

And then we surprised them with a redo table.

[Aaron]

With a redo table.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Yes. But that was fun. I think. I. But I. I feel like I heard about you from Dylan because he was talking to you about doing their office.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, interesting.

[Aaron]

He hadn't done the office yet.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, right.

[Aaron]

You got to check These guys out.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And I think at that point, he was ordering a bunch of stuff.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

For the new office. When they were still in this little.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Little tiny office in Murfreesboro.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah. Now it kind of looks like the. It's like this black facade with the look. Well, you know that they paint all of their. Yeah, it's everything black. Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's. It's. They've done. And the office is incredible.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Furniture's all throughout the whole place. Have you ever thought of helping with office design in general and more so integrating what you're doing in the space itself? And I know.

[Sean Deneen]

Do you mean, like, the building itself or.

[Aaron]

So one of my qualms.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, go on.

[Aaron]

Not. And this isn't. This isn't Rosso. This is just construction companies. I think Dylan did a nice job with their office. They spend all this money on these offices.

[Sean Deneen]

Mm.

[Aaron]

And I don't think they're all that great, really. Okay. It looks nice. Okay, it looks nice. Like, it's. It's nice. I'm like, well, this is. This is a nice place.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But is it functional? Is it, like, well designed?

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Right.

[Aaron]

Does it flow? Does it. Does it foster a sense of community? Does it feel comfortable? Is it somewhere I would want to be? Like. I feel like those are the. That is really. I think design and space is so underutilized and so underappreciated. Beautiful design then helps facilitate culture.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And facilitate the company's goals.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And I think a lot of people are like, well, we just need a nice office. I'm like, okay, it looks nice, but it kind of looks like a bank. Like, it's. It's. It's sterile. There's. There's no feeling to it. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not feeling something when I'm walking around it.

[Sean Deneen]

Well, that's. I feel like it has to, one way or another. I feel like every space should tell a story.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

So, I mean, we try to do our best to help people create a story. And I always tell people, like when you come and visit the Iron Age, our headquarters, and where we build all the product, and then you now have our product in your space, our story. You know, working with this guy that came over living the American dream.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Started from nothing, and now they have, like, 60 employees, and they. Literally, everything's made in the U.S. that story is now part of your story. So I guarantee, like, Dylan and Sean, every time they take people through their office, they're probably telling that story. So just adding character.

[Aaron]

That is. That's a good point.

[Sean Deneen]

You know what I mean? So the lot of people that we work with, I would say, have a story element because of us, in a way, because no one does what we do, so they're able to, like, brag on that.

[Aaron]

It is funny how. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

You're not mean.

[Aaron]

You're. You're a foreigner doing. With a very American business.

[Sean Deneen]

I'm so American. It's great. Yeah. Anything. I'm actually. So I became a US Citizen a couple months ago. Now.

[Aaron]

That's a big deal.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, mate.

[Aaron]

It's kind of a pain in the ass, huh? Yes. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

All the hoops to jump through.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes, it is. It is. But I use a lawyer to do it.

[Aaron]

So is your. Is your wife Americans?

[Sean Deneen]

Yes, she is. Okay.

[Aaron]

Okay. So that helps.

[Sean Deneen]

I met her when I came over coaching soccer. That's like the whole backstory.

[Aaron]

How old were you when you came over?

[Sean Deneen]

I was. It's a good question. Although I was at 23.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Sean Deneen]

I think I got married when I was 23.

[Aaron]

From England.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Okay.

[Aaron]

And so you came over at 23?

[Sean Deneen]

I came over. So basically I finished my. I had a degree in graphic design, specializing advertising. So I was always creative. Like, I definitely never woke up. Thought, I want to be. I want to make. I want to be a furniture.

[Aaron]

Furniture maker.

[Sean Deneen]

I want to be the furniture guy.

[Aaron]

What did your parents do?

[Sean Deneen]

They. My dad was. He was in the police, so he worked his way up from the ground to, like, the very top.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Sean Deneen]

So he retired. My mum was in finance.

[Aaron]

Did he have one of those cool hats?

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yeah. All of that. Like, he was a proper bobby. And it's funny, with my dad, there was like two versions. My dad when he was in the police, like, and then there's my dad when he was out of the police. Like, he. Now he's soft as shit. I love it. He's super emotional. But my dad, when he was in the police, he was. He was. It was hard to turn off. And I'm sure people can relate to that.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

But, no, they're awesome. But, yeah, they. They've always kind of knew I was not going to fall into the normal world. So, like, looking back, I'm always like, they just trusted me so much to just go and figure out.

[Aaron]

I think that's one of the biggest blessings a parent can do for a child. It is trust their child.

[Sean Deneen]

I know, but it's terrifying at the same time.

[Aaron]

I don't have kids, so I can't really comment on this. I mean, the bleachers.

[Sean Deneen]

But trust in my son, obviously. He's still only four, almost five, but I'm like, wow, my parents really did trust me.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

But I was a little rascal at the same time, you know?

[Aaron]

But it sounds so obvious. It's like, yeah, of course I trust my kids. Most parents don't.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But they. They don't. And then you've got the kid rebelling from that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Yes. Like, I didn't. I didn't really ever have to rebel.

[Sean Deneen]

Mm.

[Aaron]

Because I. I knew I had it good.

[Sean Deneen]

Mm.

[Aaron]

And so I would brush up against the guardrails, and my parents would be like, hey. And I'll be like, yeah, you're right. Like, I do. I'll go back and.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

Because. Because I. I knew that they actually trusted me. And I did have this latitude of decision making. Like, I didn't have to be home at a certain time.

[Sean Deneen]

I didn't.

[Aaron]

I didn't have to do this. I didn't have to do that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They kind of just trusted me.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that was, like, when I. When I told them I was going to work at the fish store, they're just like, cool. Yeah. Well, I was going. When I told them I was going to go become a construction worker, they're just like, okay, cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, figure out it's starting a business. Okay, cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's never been a fight.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For anything in my life. When I dropped out of the honors college. Cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, it is new. It's never been a fight. I've never had to argue with my parents.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

When it comes to my life decision,

[Sean Deneen]

do you feel like you've always had my life direction? Like, charisma, would you say?

[Aaron]

No.

[Sean Deneen]

You don't think so?

[Aaron]

No.

[Sean Deneen]

I mean, but you have the ability to talk.

[Aaron]

Yeah. That's a. That's a skill that I've developed.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, really? Yeah.

[Aaron]

I. If you saw me in high school, you'd be like, come on.

[Sean Deneen]

Come on.

[Aaron]

But I've always. I've always been odd.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I've always been a black.

[Sean Deneen]

I mean, you're still a nerd.

[Aaron]

I'm blacker than ever. Yeah. And that can be taken out of context. Yeah. I think I'm weirder than ever because I'm. I'm now comfortable. Comfortable. But then there's. I forget what book it was in. Maybe Mark Benhoff, who's now part of the Evil Empire. But I love his product. Unfortunately, I use LinkedIn all the time,

[Sean Deneen]

but

[Aaron]

that's Mark Benhoff, right? Is he LinkedIn? Anyway, okay, there.

[Sean Deneen]

There's a lot of same days blue

[Aaron]

and white and the evil empire is going by the day. Yeah, it's hard to keep up with all these guys. Yeah. Um, but he was like, are people especially that start companies, founders. Do they start companies because they're weird or do they become weird because they start companies and they kind of build their own little world, which then allows them to be more weird?

[Sean Deneen]

Mate, that's so true. And I think getting away with this, like, I'm just gonna keep being weird.

[Aaron]

Well, yeah, you kind of build your own weird. Like, I have. I have a fucking aquarium at my desk.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, that's not a normal person thing. Uh, if. If I worked at a law firm, I couldn't go to my boss. You know, I was like an associate lawyer. Be like, hey, boss.

[Sean Deneen]

Hey, we feed my face.

[Aaron]

Can I have.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Would you mind feeding my fish while I'm on vacation? Like, could I have an aquarium at my desk? Is that cool?

[Sean Deneen]

Like, no.

[Aaron]

Like, what do you. Well, that's permission to put a picture on my desk.

[Sean Deneen]

You know, it's. It's more. It's being, like, unapologetically yourself, though, and you're figuring out who that self is. Yeah. I have a. We have a quote on the wall when you walk. Because I. I really am big on, like, the experience. Like, when you're working with, like, with you or Dirt World, like, the experience, as soon as they come to the venue is everything. Right. So we even recently did the front of our landscaping that ties in with the building. It looks really cool.

[Aaron]

That's cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Because I wanted the. The Iron Age experience to start as soon as they get out the vehicle. And this is talking when they come and see the facility. Right. And then when you walk in, there's a quote on the wall and it says, we are the. Why have I forgot? We are the music makers. Wait, no, we're not. Oh, my God. Why have I forgot?

[Aaron]

That's okay. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Anyway, it's from Willy Wonka.

[Aaron]

Oh, good.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. That's embarrassing.

[Aaron]

I forgot.

[Sean Deneen]

Someone will figure that out. We are the music makers in the. Oh, that's it. We are the music makers and the dreamers of dreams.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Sean Deneen]

And I have that because we. We do a lot of tours, and it's architects, designers, dealers, and they're used to coming to a, you know, a furniture headquarters, you know, warehouse tour, and they see things in boxes on shelves because it's all coming from overseas. But I tell them what Your. You have to leave your expectations at the door because you're. What you're about to see is like nothing you've seen before. And that's like the Willy Wonka aspect.

[Aaron]

Nice.

[Sean Deneen]

So it's like a chocolate factory.

[Aaron]

You wear a purple suit too.

[Sean Deneen]

Well, that's when I press the button and the hat drops.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good.

[Sean Deneen]

So. But that's. That' what I'm really into. Like that experience is key.

[Aaron]

I think so.

[Sean Deneen]

But I wouldn't. I am only comfortable now being able to kind of create that experience because I'm more unapologetically me and. And the me CEO, whatever that means. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Because we. Because I'm so confident that we make something so cool.

[Aaron]

Well, that's why when you started the business.

[Sean Deneen]

23. Okay. I literally. Yeah.

[Aaron]

So how old are you now?

[Sean Deneen]

35. Okay.

[Aaron]

So I'm 31. So not too far behind. But I. I think business is also one of the best ways to figure out who you are.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And leading people is one of the best ways to figure out who you are. And it's. It is a. It's an obstacle course to say yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think to just get through it's very trying.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think it. There's a lot of periods through building something that doesn't exist that force you to reckon with who you are. Does that make sense?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I know. You mean that's at least how it's been for me. It's like there's been a few things that I've done to figure out who I am since college. Like within my. Your twenties is a really good time to figure out who you are.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think people are way too career focused in their 20s, which then their whole life up. Which is the. Such a bummer to see. And I see.

[Sean Deneen]

But I think that's part of the US culture as well.

[Aaron]

It is the US culture because. Because corporations and we've just got to. We just got to go get to business and increase shareholder value and raise that stock price and get more shares. Yeah. And we're all just. Yeah. Trapped in this system that I'm increasingly figuring out is complete. But fortunately I'm not stuck in that system. Thank goodness. But I like. Exercise has been one thing that's been great for me. Business has been great. Reading has been great. Speaking has been great. All of these things together have really helped me figure out who I am.

[Sean Deneen]

I think it's also part of. It's easier for us to talk about that now because we have figured out a lot. Like we're still figuring out, but we're not. We're at a place where we're successful, quote, unquote.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So you can like, I feel like when you're in the weeds of it and you're not even thinking about, oh, who am I? Or I'm figuring out. But like now we have time to like really become who you want to be through those experiences, right? Yeah, but it's not something that you just have. It's something that's like over time it comes to you and you're like, okay, I'm feeling more comfortable. Like, I've got into a stage of life where things are working out. I've got great people around me. This is who I want to be.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

And it's really, it's because of those people around you that you can be who you want to be.

[Aaron]

But it's, it's the way I try to explain to people. It's an active process. You learn who you are by doing, not by sitting around having fucking self care days, you know? And like I'm gonna really throw think about my life. That's not how it works, man. You don't just find what's for you. You have to, you have to just go do and you. And it's mostly crossing stuff off the list that isn't for you that I think is the bigger, bigger thing is like, yeah, it's just not my thing. Okay, I'm going to go in this direction instead. But it's, it's an active, engaged process and I think you have to work hard to figure out who you are. It requires a lot of effort, a

[Sean Deneen]

lot of work and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Yeah. Because even with like when I first came over coaching soccer, I was living with a new family every week. Whoa. Like literally I'd get. This was before like your map on your phone. So I'd get an envelope with the map of where I need to go, the. The address, and I'd go and meet all the parents and I would choose who coach stays with, what family. So if someone drove up in like a Cadillac, I'd like to, okay, that's my family I'm staying with. Right. Smart. But the, But I was put in these very uncomfortable situations and scenarios every week. I was trying to like fit. I've got to learn who this family is. Every time it's like a new, like the religion piece was different. Like they would always take me to church. And coming from the England where we don't really. It's not very.

[Aaron]

Used to be the church people. I know.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. But now I know if it's a cultural thing or what.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

It's just, we just don't go to church as much.

[Aaron]

You were, but you were always in the south too.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

It's way, way more of a thing in Georgia than it is in like.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. And my, I only did Georgia, Tennessee and Alabama.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because I, I even noticed that coming out here. I was in Arizona. It's like. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a thing. But you come out here and you sit down at lunch with people and they start praying. You're like, yes, this is different.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

I just haven't been around this before.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. One time they asked me to do the, the prayer.

[Aaron]

Oh.

[Sean Deneen]

And I just kind of winged it, but I just did it real quick.

[Aaron]

That's when God speaks through you.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You know, you just gotta.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Hand Jesus the wheel. Jesus, take the wheel.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know.

[Sean Deneen]

Let me figure out the situation.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

But that's like, what would you say your superpower is? That's very, I don't know if that's random.

[Aaron]

I am, I am like stubbornly consistent.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Just, just. How about I can, I can out consistent almost anybody.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

I, because I, I. And that's because I kind of have to like where I want to go is, is big. And I know I can't get there just by being fucking smart or good. Like I've never been, I've never been all that good, which I'm so grateful for because I've had to, I've had to struggle through life.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I feel like the kids that are really good in like elementary school, but especially middle school, especially high school and college, they really struggle as adults because they've just, they've never really got the shit kicked out of them.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Right.

[Aaron]

And it's just, it's only a matter of time in life. Once you get out into the jungle, man, you're going to get your teeth kicked in. And they just don't know what to do. Whereas I've kind of not done very well at everything I've done, which has made me way more effective as an adult.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

But I'm, I'm, I'm stupid consistent because that's what all my friends, dads did growing up. They were all crazy successful, self made individuals.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Aaron]

And they were just unbelievably consistent.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think that's part of my superpower too. Is like, that's what I've got. And so I've just got to hang my hat on this because I can't hang it on being stronger than people. I'm fucking five, six. I can't hang my hat on being smarter than people because I'm like. I tell people I'm like, 51% smart. I'm just smart enough. I have exactly what I need, no more, no less. And it's like, oh, this is the goldilocks zone of being smart.

[Sean Deneen]

I feel like, yeah, I'm exactly with you. Literally, I hire, which is a great trait, but, like, you have to hire people that are smarter than you.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

But being, like, comfortable doing that. Yeah. Is. Is the skill set in itself. But not being like. No, I'm the.

[Aaron]

But that's where I think not being super smart helps you.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. True, true. That's hard. That's where my superpower, I think, is just figuring out, because I'm not smart. So I'm always just, you know, I'm going to figure it out.

[Aaron]

Figuring it out.

[Sean Deneen]

I'm going to dive into the situation. I'm gonna figure out. I don't know what I'm gonna do, what I'm gonna say, but, yeah, I'll figure out.

[Aaron]

And, like, a bias for action is such a good skill to have. Just. I'm just gonna go be. You're gonna figure it out by doing. By trying stuff. Trial and error. And.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You just do it enough times, and you. You just kind of eat enough shit along the way.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

You figure out a better way of doing things.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Yeah. So true.

[Aaron]

But you. I mean, it's. It is a little random to become a furniture maker in a different country. That's not.

[Sean Deneen]

Well, pause. Not furniture maker. Like, my hands, these are very soft.

[Aaron]

Sure. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Very, very soft.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

But again, I've just got the, like, the best people around me that are building this great product. But, yeah, it's very random. Very random.

[Aaron]

It's super. It's like, but I'm literally.

[Sean Deneen]

And. And, you know, now I'm a u. S. Citizen as well, But I am literally living the American dream. Yeah. And it's awesome. Yeah. Like, so every now and then, I'll buy from my neighborhood. Like, I will bring people over. They're like, oh, what do you always see? I always wear my iron age t shirt. Right. So they'll. I'll. But you've got. You've just got to come and see it. Because when I tell people, oh, yeah, we build furniture, like, oh, okay. Like, whatever. But really, it's, like, sexy as shit, right?

[Aaron]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So. But I tell them, come and see it. So they'll come to my. The workshop, and they're like, flipping heck. But all they know is the guy that's always outside of his kids on my scooter, following my son around on his bike.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So they don't, like, connect the two.

[Aaron]

And you're pretty young, like.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

That's.

[Sean Deneen]

I think that's also kind of a superpower as well, of, like, being on assuming.

[Aaron]

Totally, totally. That's. It's.

[Sean Deneen]

I don't have. You're the same way. Yeah. 100. So about that. Before I came, like, so critical when. But we always get, like, if you don't know us, you would underestimate maybe.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, I go and tying into, like, Dirt World. Right. Which has been incredible for us, but we used to go to other furniture. Actual furniture shows where we try to showcase our product. Or I'll go and walk the floor and. Because I'm not wearing a suit and tie and because I've not got gray hair and, like, a beard and, like, funny glasses. Yeah. Well, I do have. I do wear glasses, though.

[Aaron]

Okay. Yeah. But you need to wear, like, European glasses.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yeah. True. Like, colorful or something.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Colorful.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I. Yeah, I know. The furniture glasses.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

With wispy gray hair.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a kid, like, too much gel. Like, maybe they use brill cream or something. But I would go to shows, and I've literally been, like, shooed aside before because they just don't know what I do or they're not interested to even find out. But I love it in a way. I'm like, well, fuck you guys.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Like a big construction show that we tried to get you in on.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

My wife actually brought that up, and I was like, no, he actually tried to help, dude.

[Aaron]

I, Like, I. I got you to the people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then they told you to screw off as well.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And it's just like, okay, all right.

[Sean Deneen]

But we're so connected. That's why I was like, we are so connected with the dirt world.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

With even. Well, obviously with. With Dirt World and you guys. But, like, even without now, like, we. What you guys are doing incredible at is, like, encouraging and building the next generation. Right. Then I believe that we're. We can just ride your coattail and, like, come along with you. Because.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

These people that want to attract new and younger people and want to Be the best at what they do. If someone's trying to, you know, go to one office or another office and one of these guys offices looks freaking badass and like really empowers and, and has a feeling for what they do, like the quality they're gonna go for that company. So I feel like we're, we're part of that movement in a way.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Like refresh your office. Like be cool. Like the marketing aspect of it. Like your office is part of you. You literally spend so much of your day there.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So, yeah, I. But I feel like that's what the previous generation doesn't completely appreciate. But it's 100% true with this generation. But who doesn't want to look good? I went to work, like I tell people this all the time. I went to work for multiple companies that I just thought looked cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I didn't know anything about them.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. They might have a cool logo or something.

[Aaron]

They just looked badass.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They just looked cool. It's good enough for 18, 19, 20 year old Aaron.

[Sean Deneen]

Exactly.

[Aaron]

That's, that's, it's just male logic. It's like, yeah, I want to look good.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly. But we don't like the, the beautiful thing of what we do at Iron Age as well is we're not, we're not here to. We didn't reinvent the wheel. Yeah. Like there's so many furniture companies out there. But the fact that we, we really have no true competition because all we've done is there's a wheel that already exists. Right. We're just making the wheel look better. We're not reinventing the wheel.

[Aaron]

But, but are there that many furniture companies like you guys in the States?

[Sean Deneen]

No, there's no one that does. What? We literally have no competition. Yeah. There's a lot of mom and pop shops that can do wood and steel, but we're able to create a cohesive look from the moment you walk in. So you're creating this badass experience from signage to reception desk and blah blah, blah, all the way through the space. Right?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

And it is. You're just leaving a long lasting impression. So there's no one. That's why our competition, in a way is Steelcase, Herman Miller, Noel.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

But they probably don't even know who we are.

[Aaron]

But that's pretty good competition.

[Sean Deneen]

I know, right? If you're competing, but secretly we're stealing projects away from them. And people come and work with Iron Age because, say, whether they're working directly with us or through like a dealer but it's always because they've spoke to someone and they're like, yeah, here's. This is the products that we have. And it's like, same, the same, the same. And they always say we want something different. So then they're on. On Google, like hell, and that's when they find us. So we're that powerful alternative.

[Aaron]

Well, and furniture, though, like, when I did this office, I went with all custom stuff by this local guy. Like I was telling you when you walked in here, and this was back in 2020, because the Chinese shit furniture. Yeah, the usual office furniture that's made overseas. Maybe not even Chinese, but it's.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, just the same old shit.

[Aaron]

It's overseas.

[Sean Deneen]

Laminate.

[Aaron]

Garbage. Yeah, laminate. Whatever it is, it's kind of just as expensive.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

It's not like, cheaper.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

It's not more affordable. It actually is. It's really. Office furniture is really expensive. And I don't know why. I think it's because they can kind of just screw companies. Maybe I don't understand it, but I was just like, okay, we could spend this or maybe a little bit more, but get like, real furniture.

[Sean Deneen]

Well, I can tell you why as well, though. Because the. The furniture, you know, our product is not cheap by any means, right? No, but it's affordable. When you see our website and our Instagram, which Now we're at 180,000 followers. Freaking awesome. Yeah. For a furniture company as well, which is wild.

[Aaron]

That's crazy.

[Sean Deneen]

But like, that video showed you, my marketing guy is awesome.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Anyway, the. It's. There's. It's so expensive because there's so many people between the end user and the manufacturer. But for us, it's like, if you want to work direct, go ahead.

[Aaron]

That is the weird thing about office furniture, too. There's all these people marked up.

[Sean Deneen]

Marked up.

[Aaron]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're dealing with different.

[Sean Deneen]

And the benefit for us, because there is no one what we do. We can do whatever we want. It's not like you're gonna go out and find another person that can do what we do. All we want to do is create the best experience for the end user. Like whoever's selling it, sell it. But if that end user is looking to work with us directly, then we're going to do that.

[Aaron]

But, like, shouldn't that be the point too?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, like whoever the fuck you want to work with. Right? Yeah. I don't know. Can you.

[Aaron]

One thought I had. Can you explain to people the difference between business in Britain versus business in the States.

[Sean Deneen]

No, I can't. Sorry. No, I literally can't. Only because in, in England, this is the bit I struggle with in life. Right. In England, I was a kid.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

But then I came over here and became an adult.

[Aaron]

But could you, could you have done this in Britain?

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, no, not a scoop. No chance. No chance.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

I mean, that's why this is the land of opportunity. Right. And like what we were saying before, if you don't want walk in and be an opportunist and look for someone presents you with a cool idea and it's a little bit scary, just go and do it.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, you don't know who you're going to meet or what you're going to do, but you can take that one little idea. And over here, the audience is just massive. Like, we ship product all over the country, whereas England, it's, you know, this is a lot smaller.

[Aaron]

I just think it's harder to start a. And maintain a business over there too. Yeah, it's. It's not like the entrepreneurial culture is by far flourishing the most in the States compared to other countries.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Well, you travel way more than I, so I don't.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But you, you just can't go build a business as easily in other places. I feel like if there's no.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. There's no way I could do what I've done now. Like 60 employees. No. We have 80,000 square foot workshop, like crazy. Yeah. There's just no way.

[Aaron]

Working with now construction companies.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Why'd you. So why did you focus on construction?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, it was, it was. So obviously. So start the company like, you know, in 2015. So when I come over. Yeah.

[Aaron]

What'd you start with?

[Sean Deneen]

Tables or just one desk? A One desk. Had it on Etsy.

[Aaron]

A desk on Etsy.

[Sean Deneen]

Desk on Etsy. So we put that on Etsy.

[Aaron]

And did you make it?

[Sean Deneen]

No. Did I? Bollocks.

[Aaron]

Wow.

[Sean Deneen]

The. No. So the kind of. The backstory. And I'll try to give you a small version, but when I was living with all these different families, ties in back to what we were saying. One of the families I lived with, they really, like, took to me and I'm still like great friends with him today. And he's now my business partner as well. So they, he was like, you need to meet my friend. So we met Mikey, he'd built a desk for himself and they knew I was staying because I was getting married. And you're like, let's start a business. So I was like, okay. I'm just a soccer coach. I don't have. No, not. I don't have a Scooby Doo. What I'm doing, but I'll figure it out. So we basically Mikey had built a desk for himself. We redesigned it, had it built. So his company, they're a silver machine manufacturing, so just like a fab shop. So a couple of guys random built this for us. So they did the top, did the steel, put on Etsy. So at first I was more of a sales and marketing company until I got big enough to where I could have my own people in our own building.

[Aaron]

I see.

[Sean Deneen]

So like they would build it.

[Aaron]

So they were building it and then

[Sean Deneen]

you would mark it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's not like I never came up with this grandioso idea. It's just figuring out, meeting people, putting myself in opportunities.

[Aaron]

I think that's the cool thing about business is everybody thinks you got to go and like create the Next. No, it's SpaceX or, or, or open AI like it.

[Sean Deneen]

I think the first and foremost you have to be a good person. Like. Yes, there's a lot of bad people running.

[Aaron]

You can't be a total shit bag.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But maybe they became a total shitbag after time. I don't know.

[Aaron]

Ah, I don't know. Anyway, chicken or the egg.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But you have to like Mikey and I, they, they took a risk on me. Like they didn't need to start this new company. They just always know they wanted to start a company together and I was the vessel to make it happen.

[Aaron]

Interesting.

[Sean Deneen]

So I, I really hadn't. Well, I had a lot to lose as well because I was getting married. I was just coaching soccer. So I was trying to figure out life of like what am I even going to do? Like what role or what job am I going to do? And even after like the six months we almost pulled the plug on it because we weren't really selling, we sold one or two. But then all of a sudden like some commercial companies started reaching out and then I was like, okay, this is, this is actually big. So I basically created a shop window where I faked it to fake it till you make it. Like.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So cliche, but so true.

[Aaron]

What do you mean shop window?

[Sean Deneen]

Like the website was like the shop window. So I created these fake images using people in the Philippines or wherever to put my product in these beautiful environments, make it photorealistic, which now you can do.

[Aaron]

Like now you can.

[Sean Deneen]

So easier.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

You're four year old which is awesome. Yeah. But that's how I started. So I made it look like we were this big deal. And then so I'd get these like an order for like $2,000. I was like, holy shit. Like, this is crazy. And now we've got to make it right. And then they started getting bigger. The projects got bigger. Like, I remember the first $10,000 job and I was like, call my mom and dad. Like, I've made it. Yeah, don't worry about me no more. But over time, you know, it started with just a few small pieces, but then I started working with architects and they would send me a floor plan and I would see all these different spaces and workstations, so I would sketch out the Iron Age version and they were like. And I'd put a price on it, you know, like $10,000 or whatever. And they're like, yeah, okay. And I was like, oh, now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So that's how it grew. Then took. We built it, took photos that add it to the website and we still do that today, even with like the. The product that we build with the excavator tracks. Yeah, like, we literally just. That was because of Barnett Southern. They came to us and was like, we want to incorporate our brand into the product. So we kind of worked up a, like a design idea for them and now that's become a product.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

So just figuring out as we go.

[Aaron]

That is amazing. Yeah, but, but, but what?

[Sean Deneen]

But it's like a.

[Aaron]

Is what, what, what about why. Why focus, though, on construction companies?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, My bad.

[Aaron]

Because now you're. I mean, you're almost exclusively serving.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Russian companies, but mostly dirt world.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Dirt. Well, literally.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. It's wild. So we still obviously work with everyone, but it wasn't until a couple of years ago that we. Or I just realized, God, I really like working with this industry and I'll call it like a blue collar industry, because. Is that fair to say? I don't know. Like, yeah, yeah. Right. So. And whether that's like. And this is the line I actually stole from you, but we have the pleasure now of working with people that literally without them there's no water, there's no infrastructure, there's no food. I stole that from one of your podcasts.

[Aaron]

Just fucking.

[Sean Deneen]

But now I use it in my speech. Right. But it's so true. Like, it's such a pleasure that without them we couldn't function. So for us to serve them and like, be proud of what we do so they can be proud of what they do. It's just an absolute blessing. So. So, yeah, so we basically channeled all of our marketing effort into the blue collar industries, whether that's construction and all the different, different parts of it. Right. Civil. And I think it's brilliant.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's brilliant. It's so interesting. Have you listened to Andy Frisella much? You've got to. I've got to show you what to get on.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

So he had this initial podcast called MF CEO Project and I started listening in 2015. I remember because I was on the railroad, ready to jump in front of a train. It was just miserable, miserable summer. And really character building though. I built a lot of character that summer. But I was listening to podcasts and it was this guy I found on Instagram because he had a bunch of sick cars. He had a bunch of Lamborghinis and shit. And there was this like car rally that I would follow and they, yeah, it's. It's completely ridiculous. And this, this company was sponsoring it. And then this guy Andy, he had his Lamborghinis in it, his Aventadors or whatever it was. So I started following this guy on Instagram. Then he has his podcast. I start listening to the podcast. Podcast is about business, it's about marketing, it's about branding, it's about social media. And I'm just eating this shit up because I can't find it anywhere else. There's nothing else where this guy is just like, listen, I've done it. Here's how I've done it. Here are my thoughts on it. Like just no, no, no bullshit. And he would break different concepts down. And I listened religiously. I've listened since. And it changed. It helped me figure out how to start build with which is great. I've told that story a bunch. But then he just relaunched MF CEO Project and it's a business specific show and so he's breaking down business concepts. And he was just talking about today. I was listening on my run about branding and how he was just like one. I was telling everybody years ago, which he was. When the whole America thing was not cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes. Oh yeah.

[Aaron]

He was like, listen, it's going to go in the different. It's going to go in the other direction. The whole America Made thing. The America thing?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's going to be a big deal. It already kind of is a big deal. You guys just aren't seeing it.

[Sean Deneen]

It's.

[Aaron]

It's going to be a big deal. That's where you guys are American made, American businesses. Which I think is extraordinary, especially making stuff in America. Like how. How fast did that turn?

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Within 12 months. Everybody's talking about making in America now because of the whole tariff conversation. So there's that. That I find is interesting about your business. And then two, he was talking about how. And I completely agree, which is what we're doing with Dirt World and other things. That's why I spend so much time on job sites, ironically, is. Despite my online presence, is because he was like, everything went so online that now people don't want that anymore. So he was like, I, a year ago said if I was a Pizza Hut franchisee, I would bring back the red cups, I'd bring back the stained glass, I'd bring back the pizza bar, so on and so forth. And then he was like, I just saw an article, some guy did bring it back and he's fucking killing it. Oh, wow. Because people want that real experience, that. That nostalgia. They want to feel connected to the world around them and bring back community.

[Sean Deneen]

Right? Yes, that's.

[Aaron]

Well, I. That's gonna be tricky. But, but, but, yes, like that, that. And so I was listening a few hours ago, and it's just like. It's funny that your business is within this. Not that you're doing it for this reason, but it's within this. It's just we're building shit in America made by Americans for Americans, which I think is a brilliant business model. And then two, you're bringing people into the process. You're making things. People want to be a part of how things are made. Like making it an experience.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Is also like a.

[Sean Deneen]

No, literally, like one of the quotes. I, you know, like a. Whatever. Put it into the brand, but we revive craftsmanship. Yes. And at first I was like, it sounds cool, but, like, are we really doing that? But we really are doing that. Like, we bring people in for wood for the. In the metal shop, like welding. We have great relationships with, like, welding schools and things like that. So that's like a skill set that's still being taught, but woodworking is not being taught. And like, if it is, please someone, you know, let me know where to get these people from. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

But so we, we. Like a great example is there's a McDonald's right, right around the corner from our workshop. So a bunch of my guys go there, they'll get food, whatever that. One of the guys in the window, they always talked about this one guy to me and was like, oh, he's such a nice guy. Anyway, so he found out who we were, and we were like, let's. Let's see if he wants to come work for us. So now he comes and works for us with no skills, but because we have so many different departments, whether that's building pallets, wiping steel, sanding wood tops, like from literally start to finish, there's a place that you can start. And if you show that you are a good person and then capable of operating tools, you can grow onto all these different things and then learn, like, learn the metal side of things. Learn the wood shop. Like.

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

So that's where we really are reviving craftsmanship. Like one person at a time.

[Aaron]

It is really cool. I mean, even woodworking, when you think about the wood around you, there's wood all over, but most of it's mass produced. Bullshit.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Almost all furniture, all cabinetry, very little within a house or especially a business is made by somebody, if anything, around people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. There's no way.

[Aaron]

No. That's why, like, again, it goes back to when I did this office. I wanted to. I wanted as many people to make stuff as possible for the office, which it worked out for the most part. Some of the stuff, I'd be like, what? I redone that. But we had a local guy do the countertops, concrete countertops. We had a local group do the wallpaper and make the. Make the wallpaper for the different meeting rooms. This was all a local guy, local furniture guy for everything. Like, I wanted to involve as many people making things as possible.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Because then it creates a story.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

And then all of those things together create a feeling. And that's where I think people really underestimate something as simple as furniture or design. When it's done well, it creates a feeling.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You don't know why it's there, how it's there. You don't even acknowledge it sometimes. But there is a. There's an energy. There's a feeling in really great spaces.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That is then lacking in others. Go into a bank. Going to a doctor's office, dentist's office.

[Sean Deneen]

So, like, even with. Like you asked early about, do we do the floor? The design aspect of it. So not only. So we have a design team in house, so we do help people with layouts and floor plans to create areas where people can meet. Or like, there's a workstation or. You know, my. I've got to a point now with, you know, I have a. We don't have any outbound sales or there's no, like sales reps and whatnot. Everything just comes through. You know, we've got so many people, like, you know, between 4 to 5,000 people a day coming to our website. Sure. So we're just fielding inquiries. So we're really just creating this experience and navigating each journey. So what I get to do now is I'm not heavily involved in every single project, but I will always stick my nose in and see if there's anything creative that I can come up with and. Because I want everyone to have a space that no one else has.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

You know what I mean? Like, yes. Our product is the wood. It's the steel. So no product, no space is ever going to be the same because of all the character. But I want to introduce elements of something we've never done before. But I was like, oh, I wish we would have done on that project. So maybe we can do on your project. But that's the trust part as well.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

These people trust us, especially this industry. Like, they, like, they give us a lot of trust. So they. They allow us to come in and flex that muscle.

[Aaron]

But they trust you because you speak directly to them.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's where. That's why I don't. I don't think it's really hard to get that trust if you're not catering directly to them.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If you're a vendor that caters to everybody.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes. True.

[Aaron]

I only think you can get so far with this world.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. But having, like, actual conversations and. Yeah. Hearing their story and what do they actually want? You're able to create something special. Yeah. And that's why Dirt World is freaking the best. But I don't know about. And not to toot your horn in front of you, but anything but I don't know other vendors stories or how it's been successful for them, but it's literally changed the way we. The way we market, who we market to.

[Aaron]

It's. I appreciate that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I'm happy to hear that.

[Sean Deneen]

But I also believe that we are. I think that we. We are your most successful story from Dirt World.

[Aaron]

I think Bender wise one of them. There's been some really cool.

[Sean Deneen]

You're really.

[Aaron]

Yeah. You're one of the cool ones. But there's quite a few cool ones. Yeah. Which is awesome. I want to be the coolest, but. I know, I know. Well, you're the only one that brought a table. We've got.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

The Dirt World table, which we're work. We're modifying to make it even. Better.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Sean Deneen]

All right.

[Aaron]

Well, they don't. They don't tell me.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, no, they don't know either.

[Aaron]

Okay, cool. I'm just doing that. But I just. I show up. I show up. Talk about trust.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, I know.

[Aaron]

Yeah, they are better at this than I am. I stay out of the way. But those that have benefited the most from it are the ones that have put the most into it. Like, I feel like you didn't just show up and, like, fingers crossed. I hope people just buy tables.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Aaron]

I think you were engaged in the process, and you're. You're. You're thinking different, differently, and you're marketing differently, and you don't have all these rules with your business, and. And you're actually engaging with people and building relationships. Like, you're. You're pouring into it, and then you get a lot out of it as well. I think the companies that have done well have done just that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The companies that have not done well, they come to it and they treat it like a trade show. It's like, it's not that, man. And. And. And I get it. Like, you're paying money to be here, but I can only do so much for you, right? I'm like. I say I'm build with, like, we're building this community, and it is fertile, fertile ground. But I can't make things happen for you, right? I can't. I can't hold your hand through the process. You still have to do something to make something up.

[Sean Deneen]

Right?

[Aaron]

And so the ground can be as fertile as possible if you don't put some seeds down. What do you want me to do? Like, sorry, your. Your harvest sucked because you didn't put anything in the ground but the ground. Like, you can't. The ground's great. This is the best ground ever.

[Sean Deneen]

Right?

[Aaron]

Which I don't know if that's the best analogy, maybe.

[Sean Deneen]

I love that ground.

[Aaron]

But, yes, I think. I think, like, you've taken full advantage of it, which. And that goes for those attending, too. It's like, if you just show up and just. You're just a passenger, right?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah. And don't talk to anyone or meet other people. Go sit at someone else's table.

[Aaron]

Dude, if that's your program, then don't fucking come. Or. Or if you're going to go get drunk one night and then be hungover the next day while sitting in the sessions, like, yeah, why spend the money? Don't. Don't come.

[Sean Deneen]

That's.

[Aaron]

This. That's not this thing. This thing is for People that. That want to go all in. And I think that's most everybody there.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which is for sure is really exciting. So that's mine.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, for sure. And even with the, like, the Dirt World table that we created, like, we. That. That came about. Because I also believe you don't actually. Don't get. Right. So I was like, what else can we do? Like, and I saw on the. Again, I saw the floor plan and I was like, can we build you guys a cool table and just kind of like it be yours? But we just, you know, it just. We're going to make a video around it. We're going to market the shit out of it before it even gets there.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So if you don't ask, you don't

[Aaron]

get from a marketing standpoint too.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Pretty. Pretty savvy move.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then everybody's sitting, looking at this table in the middle of the damn. Like.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

You get way more exhibit space. Oh, yeah. Because your table's in the middle of everything and it's looking Dirt World and everybody's sitting around it like, this looks really cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

What if. What if my brand was there?

[Sean Deneen]

So I. Yeah, yeah, we've lent fully into it, but.

[Aaron]

And that's the kind of stuff we're down for, like, because we don't have a bunch of rules and a bunch of different stakeholders and. Oh, we got to go run it by the board.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

Oh, we haven't done that before.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If we can do that, like, why

[Sean Deneen]

not like another company that we.

[Aaron]

That's a lot of people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, I know.

[Aaron]

I get it. Yeah, I get it. But I also. I don't have time for it anymore.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. It was just incredibly successful for us. Like, the. The. You know, obviously this is br. Time, I think, with you guys. Oh, is it?

[Aaron]

I feel like you've been there since the beginning. Oh, no, I think. No, you weren't there in the first one.

[Sean Deneen]

Maybe not the first.

[Aaron]

When we were in the basement in Houston, I don't think.

[Sean Deneen]

No, we weren't there. No.

[Aaron]

Yeah, that was a miss.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

We started the right time anyway. We're locked in for sure. But now it's not only, like, you know, we're making these connections and then just seeing them again time after time. So it's just all that, like, that community aspect of it, which is huge. And it's also, like, for the vendors, like, go. Go and listen to the.

[Aaron]

The.

[Sean Deneen]

The people speaking. Like.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah. That's another thing too. Like, dude, what are you doing at this table?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Everybody's in there.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're not going to miss anything. Like, they're. Jesse Itzler speaking. Go. Listen. Go implement that in your life. You'll be better for it. Your business will be better.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, that was a dope. That was my favorite ones, for sure. Jesse. Yeah.

[Aaron]

They're all unbelievable. I just.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Every year I'm just like, I cannot believe.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I cannot believe this. This is really something. The people we've. We've had come through the door now.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

But the. In terms of why I think you and I have a lot of similarities as well is that there is no chain of command. Like, if you have a good idea, it's like, you know, it's got to be realistic. But let's make it happen.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Let's figure out a way to make it happen.

[Aaron]

I actually. I like, though, about your business that you're not the guy making the furniture, and you don't really know how to make furniture.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Yeah, no, that's.

[Aaron]

That's been me with everything we've done. And I.

[Sean Deneen]

And it's okay. Like.

[Aaron]

Well, and I've. It's. I've gone back and forth in my head sometimes. I'm like, from a. A software standpoint, I don't know how to code. I don't know how to make software.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And yet that's our primary business now, where the event dirt world. I don't know how to put on an event. People give me way too much credit. They're like, wow, you've done great. I'm like, I haven't done shit.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

This is not my thing.

[Sean Deneen]

Your speaking is spot on, though. Like, that's dope.

[Aaron]

Well, because that's my job. Like, that's what I can contribute.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And so. And. And I don't want to be on the stage because my fucking name is in the company. Right. Like, that. That doesn't work for me.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't want to stick out. Yeah. I don't want to be the guy

[Sean Deneen]

that's, like, now it's time to listen to me.

[Aaron]

Yeah. They had Aaron on stage. Like, we have to do this hour because it's kind of his thing.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

No, I want to earn my position on that stage, and if I suck, I want to be voted off because it's valuable. Stage. Stage. But I've always been a big believer. And you can. I've been a big believer in leaning into what you're best at and letting other people do what they're best at. And so. And you don't have to do everything within a business which I don't think civil construction is very good at because oftentimes it's some guy who's really good at digging holes and then he gets. He ends up with this big company and he's still kind of the guy controlling everything because he's still kind of the guy that knows best.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Kind of the guy that knows best.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I think it holds organizations and teams back.

[Sean Deneen]

That's also where ego and stuff comes into it. Like if you're, if you're aware, self aware of like your strengths and weaknesses like and you can fill those gaps. But some people just aren't aware. Their ego is like they just don't want to bring people in that are better than them. They don't realize that it'll make their life so much better.

[Aaron]

Oftentimes I see it as they've been burned and when you're burned it creates

[Sean Deneen]

some scar tissue like burnt by other people.

[Aaron]

Yeah. They've been screwed.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And then it, and then unfortunately it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. That is you get screwed, then you start trusting people less and less.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And as you start trusting people less and less, you get screwed more ironically. Because that's just human nature.

[Sean Deneen]

That is so true. Yeah.

[Aaron]

It happens. People, it's. It's a bummer to watch because then they get really kind of bitter.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And they can. Some of these people are in really technically powerful positions.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Or at these big companies. Like it's. You can still build something within this doom loop, but it's, it's a miserable way to live.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I wouldn't trade.

[Sean Deneen]

I always tell people like especially new hires or whatever. Like, and I'll tell my team but I'm going to give you. And this might be naive of me and maybe it's just a moment, but I'm going to give you 100 of my trust. Like off the gate. Like straight, straight off the gate. And it's going to be up to you to lose that trust.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Which kind of what you're saying there. I'm. I'm in that position now where I've not been burned that much. I've been burnt a few times. But the. What the, the pros I get from giving people trust and letting them just spread their wings and run is way, way more than the negative completely.

[Aaron]

I think I. And I'm in the same category.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. I'm Helena. Are you naive in a way? Maybe it's Just my wife. That tells me I'm naive, but I've

[Aaron]

been, I'm pretty naive and I've been pretty naive at times. And sure, you're going to get screwed. Yeah, that's just, that's just the world. You're going to get screwed. But then it's important when you do get screwed not to go build up this armor.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then, and then to, but and to not keep trusting people. I think that's like, it's the greatest irony I've observed. I've been doing this long enough. You've been doing this long enough. You start to see some trends at a certain. That's why I've actually really liked getting older and getting life experience because it's like, oh, like I can kind of see some patterns here.

[Sean Deneen]

Nice making sense. Yes.

[Aaron]

Like there's, there's enough time has elapsed where it's like, okay, this has always been true. And so this is something I want to hang on to. And that is like if you do completely trust people, they, it's human nature. They won't it up. They want to be part of the tribe.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

They do not want to be cast out. You do not want to be cast out. It's a huge fear of people. That's why like public speaking is a big fear because you're. All these people are looking at you and if you fail, you're going to be cast out. Of course that's not how it works nowadays, but it's so ingrained within us. And so if you're 100 in on somebody, they're 9 out of 10 times. 9.9 out of 10 times. I feel like they're going to reciprocate that trust.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

You're going to have that 1% that's going to screw you. You can get, get rid of them.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

As hopefully as quickly as possible and just keep moving on. But it's when you say I trust you and then you do things that clearly say I do not trust you. Wow.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, that's.

[Aaron]

So that then creates this resentment.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

That then manifests, manifests itself as, as, as not trusting. But what. It's just human again, human nature. When I take your autonomy, when I take your sense of self and control, you're going to rebel. And, and again, it's, it's not, not to justify it. But it's human nature. It's like the. But going back to the kid parent relationship. If you take your child's autonomy away, if you say I trust you, but here's all these rules.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

You take that autonomy away, the child is going to rebel.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Fact.

[Aaron]

That's the, that's how it works, man. It just, I've seen it and, and I've employed enough people at this point to kind of like, ah, it's kind of true. And I feel like you're in the same boat. And I want to keep doing more of this. I want to just keep trusting people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah. It's sad. Sad.

[Aaron]

It's, it's sad for the people that don't, but it's a huge opportunity.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For anybody looking to build something special that's. It's a superpower, It's a weapon. Trust.

[Sean Deneen]

No, it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's been, it's been, it's been. That's been one of the best things I've learned in business, I would say, is trust and just trusting people.

[Sean Deneen]

What is like the, what's the, what's the worst. Have you had a moment where it's like, like, what's the worst thing that's happened to you with Build Wit? Do you have, like, is it nearly

[Aaron]

going out of business?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

For years.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't know.

[Sean Deneen]

That's other people's side.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I mean, I think I'm so naive. Like, we've been screwed this way, that way, but I don't. You just deal with it and move on, man.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. True.

[Aaron]

I don't know.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It's hard. It's like there's, you know, when you listen to podcasts and you listen to wise people, there's, there's sometimes there's an element of like, realism that doesn't come across, you know, and it's like, even when we're talking, I want to, I want to make sure that, you know, like, it's, it's easy to say some things when you are successful, but when you're grinding and you're in the, in, in the early stages, it really is. It sucks, doesn't it? And it's difficult. Yeah, but it's, but, but like leaning into people that you want, the networking aspect of it, like, you've got to lean into other people in your industry and others. And don't be, don't be worried.

[Aaron]

It's, it's. And it's a grind. And I don't want to say it's not, it's like, oh, it's not been so bad because, yeah, it's, it's easy to look back on it with rose colored glasses.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then I don't want to be like, oh, wow, you have it all figured out. Because I sure shit don't.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, Right.

[Aaron]

But I've heard going back to Jesse Itzler, he's like, when you're running 100 mile race, which I have, you're going to really hurt. That, like, you're going to be really uncomfortable.

[Sean Deneen]

Mm.

[Aaron]

That's just the, The. The entry. That's just the admission. That's the table stakes just to be there. Of course it's going to be uncomfortable. Of course it's going to hurt. And that's where. When you're building something, when people are like, oh, it's really hard, it's like, yeah, yes, Right? Yes, like that. Yes, of course. Of course it is. Like. And so I've kind of trained my brain in a way to be like, well, no, it's supposed to be hard.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

If it was hard, everybody would do it. That's why we're the ones doing it. That's why we're here. And when it's hard, that's good. Like, let's go even more in on this because it just. It's just further separation.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And so I think I've tried to, like, I've just always been very accepting of it, though. I haven't been under any illusion that that's not the game I'm playing.

[Sean Deneen]

And.

[Aaron]

And I don't like complaining about the game I'm playing or I work so hard. Oh, this and that, or entrepreneurship. It's like, no shit, dude. That's the fucking game. Or when people complain about how hard it is to employ people or this and that, it's like, then don't employ somebody.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Am I supposed to, like, have all this sympathy? I'm so sorry, man. Wow, it must be so hard to run a company. Don't fucking run a company then.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, like, don't.

[Aaron]

Don't run a company. If you don't want to deal with people, why are you leading a business?

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Get.

[Sean Deneen]

Go people first.

[Aaron]

Oh, there's other opportunity. You can do other stuff that doesn't require people. You don't have to go employ people. Like, if you're bitter about it, what's the point? What's the whole point? Wants to work for somebody like that, too, that just has a negative worldview about people.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

I don't want to work for somebody that thinks people suck.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's a lot of people in charge.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They really think people just kind of suck. And I think they're just They've just gotten to the point where they're just kind of so bitter and maybe they've been screwed along the way or whatever it is. But you've got a negative worldview about your customers. About the world, about people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. And that's the.

[Aaron]

That's a way harder way to do it.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. The people aspect, especially, like, that's when I. People ask me, like, what you most proud of is the. For me, it's the people, like the people that are building the product. The people that I have just in our company. Yeah. Because it's just, it's so cool to be able to be around people you actually like.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

You know, and actually wake up, like, create. Been able to create a company where you know for a fact that at least the vast majority of people on a Sunday are not like, ah, I've got to go to work tomorrow.

[Aaron]

I owe. Sometimes I even feel bad about talking about it with other people that I know that are in like kind of miserable position. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like how much I enjoy being with the people I work with because I know they're not in that position. And I don't want it to come off like I'm being an asshole. Look at me, I'm everything so great here. But it is kind of that way. I mean, I just sent a message two hours ago to Jennifer who.

[Sean Deneen]

Who.

[Aaron]

Who heads up all of our hiring culture, everything.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I just told her. I was like, thank you for whatever you've been doing for recruiting over the past six months. The quality of individual that's come in here is just unbelievable. Oh, they're really talented. But then they're just good human beings and it's so nice.

[Sean Deneen]

But the impact from a leadership aspect, the impact of you actually sending that text. And sometimes we think about, oh, so and so is doing such a good job. And then you go on with your day. Yeah. But just fuck, just text them.

[Aaron]

I've tried to do better.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

About that. Or swear somebody tells me somebody's doing a good job.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I'll then go message them, say, yeah, I heard you're doing a really good job. Yeah, I did that today too.

[Sean Deneen]

Wait, there was a, There was a speaker, the first dirt. Well, I can't remember his name, but one of the, the takeaways from it was every like once a day, try to text three or try to text three people and let them know how much you appreciate them. Like, don't actually. Like, it's just kind of action. Right. And I've been doing that and It's. It's the. The rewards are just, like, so much for you. It's just great.

[Aaron]

Well, and. And stuff like that pops in your head all the time.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But then you don't expect.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. You might be driving. Yeah. So it's like, hey, you know, tell so. And so, you know, whatever. But.

[Aaron]

Or you'll see some. Somebody post something online. That's pretty cool. You're like, oh, that's pretty cool. And then you just keep scrolling.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

The social media is a great thing for that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, true.

[Aaron]

Like, instead of just in your head thinking it, then you go message them.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Or text them or call them about it and. And throw them a bone.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, it does. And then hopefully that. That, you know, pushes them to do something similar, like. Yeah. Wow, that felt great for me. So I should do that for my team or. And it's, you know, just running by example. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So it's.

[Aaron]

It's easier said than done, though, when you're just.

[Sean Deneen]

Me.

[Aaron]

I'm just like a golden. Golden retriever, and I'm just like, just. I'm just fixated on the tennis ball.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't care about anything else but that tennis ball.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yeah.

[Aaron]

True. And. And it's just my one job. And you're just so. You're just so locked in.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're not looking up and out of the bigger picture and the people around you and the good things happening.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Which.

[Sean Deneen]

So would you say that's one of your weak weaknesses?

[Aaron]

I don't. I don't know if it's a weakness because I think that's also what's required.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

To do anything.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You know, like, it's funny. I've listened to enough very accomplished people talk about it, and I think that's one of the more common regrets is like, man, I wish I would have appreciated the journey more. And that's not to say you can't.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

But I also think there has to be this irrational fixation.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. But you are the golden retriever, but you also doing those things that you just literally said you are, so. Maybe.

[Aaron]

But you have to be deliberate about it.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You have to be deliberate about. Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, True.

[Aaron]

You can't. If you're just, like, winging it, it's not gonna happen.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. That's.

[Aaron]

You have to go out of your way to make it happen.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Which that's. That. That in itself is a big deal just to. Just to do it.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

I think about it and actually do it. Yeah.

[Aaron]

We have One of the coolest things we have is on Slack, like, our internal communication. We have, like, a props channel, and it's just. It's just a channel in which you can tag somebody and recognize them for whatever.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

And that's the one thing we've done from a culture standpoint that, like, we've never had to facilitate or foster. It's just always. People have just always done it.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, fun.

[Aaron]

Which is really cool.

[Sean Deneen]

Even if it's, like, as simple as, like, oh, so and so. Brought me a coffee. Like.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, little things.

[Aaron]

It could be simple or it could be something huge and everything in between, but people are recognizing people for stuff every. Every day in that channel.

[Sean Deneen]

How long have you guys been using Slack?

[Aaron]

Since the beginning. We've always been a remote business.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Okay.

[Aaron]

We've always been remote.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And we've thought about replacing it. It's just we almost, I think, transitioned to maybe Microsoft this year, but then it turned out to be way more expensive and way more cumbersome, so. And then our team, they were getting their pitchforks and.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Torches out. So we reversed course. Yeah. Now.

[Sean Deneen]

And everyone likes the remote aspect of it, but obviously you've still got a really cool space.

[Aaron]

It drives me nuts.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It drives me nuts. I couldn't. Some days I wish I had a furniture business.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Everybody was in one fucking box, you know?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But great. I bet it's.

[Sean Deneen]

Honestly, mate, like, even, like, when you need to. Next time you're in Georgia, please come and see what we do.

[Aaron]

I would really like to see it.

[Sean Deneen]

Like, every time we have a. Especially when we have a tour on, I'll text my wood shop lead and he'll know and he'll put on American music. So it's always like. It's such a good vibe. You walk through, every department's got music blasting, and everyone's like, our age. Yeah. So it's just like a soccer team in a way. Like, everyone's just working together. No. No matter what department you're in, you're just all vibe, and it's fucking. It's awesome. I'm so. I'm so proud of what we do. It's just. It's the best.

[Aaron]

I'd love to see it.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I bet it's a. I bet it's a blast. I just, like, for what we're doing, I don't think we could do it like that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so that's where batted around.

[Sean Deneen]

Which. I get it.

[Aaron]

I'm like, dude, why batted around? It's not even Worth thinking at least

[Sean Deneen]

you've got a cool office, though, still. So if you've got a space, we do this.

[Aaron]

But the office is actually one of the bigger mistakes I've made.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, really?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Interesting.

[Aaron]

Yeah. One of the dumber business decisions I've made.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow. No shit. Well, yeah, shit.

[Aaron]

I think I did it for the wrong reasons. I did.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

To look cool and big and important.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I wanted to feel big and important, and I spent a bunch of money on it.

[Sean Deneen]

Mm.

[Aaron]

And I. I think we did a pretty. Pretty damn good job. I've been in a lot of offices now. There's very few like this one.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Definitely comfortable.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Well, the bones of this space. Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's a beautiful space, but it's so underutilized. So underutilized. So that. For what we're.

[Sean Deneen]

It does almost like walking through. I was like. It's almost painful. Like, we're.

[Aaron]

We're not. We did something crafty with. When we sold the company, so we're not on the hook.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, okay.

[Aaron]

For. For all of the rent anymore.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Which was a good deal. So technically. Technically speaking, the field work subleases a fair portion of the office space now, but they're never here.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

So it always looks empty. Financially, it's a little better for us. But yeah, it's. It's. And. And I built a workspace, whereas the next one. And I'm already thinking it through. The next one's going to. On this one. Because it'll be. I'm really thinking through how the space is going to be used.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like for the podcast, for. For shooting video, for entertaining people, for hosting events.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's going to be more of a community rather than an office.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes. Yes.

[Aaron]

Studio.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So not everyone can do that. Not. You know, some people need cubicles or they need those. That type of privacy. But being able to create a unique space is just the best.

[Aaron]

It is. And I cannot fucking wait until I've got some coin to really do it. Right. Like, everybody gets excited about some of these places, and it might be my ego. I go to these places and I'm just like, this is incredible, but I could do a lot better, I think. And maybe especially if you've seen a

[Sean Deneen]

lot, you can kind of like take from.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I. And maybe I'm delusional, but I'm like, a little bit.

[Sean Deneen]

Maybe that's okay.

[Aaron]

If I could go spend, you know, 50 million bucks on. On a. On a. On a facility to really celebrate the dirt world.

[Sean Deneen]

Uhhuh.

[Aaron]

Look out, man. It'll rival Disney World as far as, like, how cool it is and how effective it is and special it is and the community around it. Like, that's. I want to do that one day.

[Sean Deneen]

That would be a blast.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. That's cool.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So you're like a Walt Disney.

[Aaron]

There's all kinds of stuff I want to go do. Yeah. But it just needs money. And I've asked the Dirt World for money. They've said no, we're going to keep our money. We're going to stack it up and go give it to the next generation. I don't know why or what that looks like, but, okay, cool. I'll make my own money.

[Sean Deneen]

Do you know the Walt Disney story? Like, I don't know it ins and outs, but. Do you know anything about Walt Disney?

[Aaron]

But the biography is sitting on my desk. I read it yet.

[Sean Deneen]

Because they. I just saw a podcast come out about it, and I started listening to it, and his journey is almost, like, similar to yours in a way, from what I know of yours. In terms of. He started by. He's, like, sketching. Right. So he'd scratch these little cartoons, and no one. He didn't work for anyone in particular, but he would just sketch him and send them to people and mail them to people and stuff until people started learning more about what he did and the capabilities. And then people would randomly pay him, like, a quarter or something. So eventually that became something which isn't. Isn't that similar to. With you? You were like, can I just come and take photos?

[Aaron]

Yeah. I mean, if I was a fraction of a Walt Disney, I'd be pretty stoked.

[Sean Deneen]

You are.

[Aaron]

That'd be a pretty good life.

[Sean Deneen]

You've got to be in there. You are. I think I'm a bit like Willy Weiker. That's weird.

[Aaron]

Give me, like, another 10 years and I think we'll be able to cook. Yeah, we just haven't been able to cook yet.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Holding the fucking down.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I just. I just. Once we have some resources, we can really cook.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And we already are. We already are. It's. It's more exciting now than ever before.

[Sean Deneen]

But what's your vision with fun in terms of, like, scalability of it and not scalability, but, like, how big of audiences.

[Aaron]

It's something we've been debating.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

I don't know, because I also.

[Sean Deneen]

I don't know who told me, but

[Aaron]

I thought it was in Dirt World. Was not my vision.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

It was not my idea.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. But shit happens and you roll with it. Right?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Great idea.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's worked out just fine.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. But being passionate.

[Aaron]

Had we not done it, we would have been out of business that first year, and then we would have been out of business the second year, and then we would have been out of business the third year, and then we would have been out of business this year.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow.

[Aaron]

Because of cash flow.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And that's not why we did it, but. Holy. Had we not done it.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

The cash flow standpoint, dude.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I bet a lot of people don't know that.

[Aaron]

Yeah. But it's. It's so funny because that was not at all that just in the decision making criteria initially. It just was.

[Sean Deneen]

How did it even come about there? Was there just enough conversation of, like, people need this. Like, it became a needle.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I think it was just so obviously a need.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And an opportunity to get people together.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

In a bigger way. And we'd always played with it. Like it wasn't our first event.

[Sean Deneen]

Technically.

[Aaron]

We'd had a bunch of events, but on a smaller scale.

[Sean Deneen]

And I've been to. I've been to a few events as well. What takes me back the most is without being corny or anything, but, like, the quality of people.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Like, it really is just. It's just amazing. Like, everyone's interested in each other. Yeah. Like, what do you do? And no one's like, this is my world. Don't. Don't look at why do. And these are my secrets.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

There's.

[Aaron]

There's. There's not nearly as much ego.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That there are other.

[Sean Deneen]

I think it's an awakening that there's. That the US like this country and it goes beyond. Like, we've worked with people from Hawaii because of.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I was with Jason. Yeah. Maybe a month ago.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're actually. They're expanding as well and we're growing with them. But it's. It's a. It's an awakening that we don't need to be secretive with our tools and our successes and our failures. Like, let's share it. Which is a lot of the speakers they share about these failures they had, which is so incredibly helpful for the next generation of people that are trying to figure it out. Yeah. It's fucking. It's just awesome, dude. Congratulations. We love.

[Aaron]

Well, thanks for being a part of it. You make it.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, we, we. We. I talk about it all the time. Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's awesome. No, it's. It's. It's just yeah, it's. It's. I think, like, to answer the question about where we go, I think where we're focused right now is there's other opportunities, but we don't want to mess up. We don't. We don't want to get complacent.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

And you could easily do that. I think now is the opportunity to, like, double down on the experience.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Because we've kind of. Yeah. And I don't. I don't want to make this seem like I'm not really valuing the team that we've had building the experience for three years now for a fourth, because they've put in a ton of effort to make it what it is. And it's been an extraordinary experience. But a lot of our energy has been dedicated to just getting people there and just kind of making it happen. Especially the first year, it was, like, really winging it. Yeah. Let's go all in and cross our fingers, hope this works out. And now we have more latitude because we've sold it faster to really go all in on the experience. Every little detail.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And so that's what I'm really excited about. And that's what I think makes something extraordinary. Anybody can go make a conference and anybody can go pay a bunch of people to go get up on a stage. That's not unique, but the experience of it, every moment over the three days, I think we can make it really special.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But that requires a lot of deliberate action and thought on all of the little details.

[Sean Deneen]

The little details, I believe. I love experiences. Like, I feel like every single company should create an experience for. Whether it's their customers.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Their employees. But it should always be an experience. Right. And those. It's the small little things that, like.

[Aaron]

Well, you have an experience as a business, no matter what.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, right. But, like, the Jersey shape. Yes.

[Aaron]

They should shape it. They should deliberately be. But even a new person coming to your business, day one, that's an experience. That's an opportunity. There's. There's one first impression that they get coming into the business.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

What's it gonna be?

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Is it gonna be shit?

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Sometimes it has been for us because we kind of. For us, like, we're just so lean and moving so fast, we almost forget people are showing up.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Oh, shit. You're starting over.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron]

Which. But. But that's. That's a terrible look for the business because what does that say to them? Well, I'm not important. Whereas you can. Instead, you can shape that first day. To be as. In that first week. To be as special as possible. To then give them this great foundation. To then allow them to be as effective as they can be.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

As quickly as they can be. And contribute. And who doesn't want to contribute effectively and feel valued? That's just one example. Like you said, you've done it with your bringing your customers in.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, Right. And that's why I want to focus on. As we grow. Yeah. I want to keep bringing in people that, again, better than I am. And I just want to focus on the experience, like, really. Because it's like. Because there's no one that does what we do. So I really want to capture that and like the whole Willy Wonka aspect of it. Like, I want to create a Willy Wonka experience, you know?

[Aaron]

Are you. Are you a reader?

[Sean Deneen]

No, I'm not.

[Aaron]

Oh, man.

[Sean Deneen]

I'm not. I've got.

[Aaron]

There's a really good book.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You would really enjoy. It's called Unreasonable Hospitality.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

It's about this restaurant that was kind of average. And they were like, we want to be one of the best restaurants in the world. And it's like a 10 year process. It was not an overnight thing, but it. The whole book is about how they just made the experience better and better and better and better and better and better. And it just compounded. And it was big things at first, and then it was smaller things at first. And then it was the most minute details imaginable. And you read this and you're just like, whoa.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Aaron]

But they just made the experience so over the top that. Spoiler alert. They became one of the best restaurants in the world.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

It's.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow, I need that.

[Aaron]

And that's it.

[Sean Deneen]

Even though it smells and those things like, that's it.

[Aaron]

Smell. But that's basic restaurant stuff.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. True.

[Aaron]

This. This was down to. They would. They hired people on the staff to just elevate people's experience. So, like, when someone said they overheard someone say, I we've got to go because the parking meter is almost up, they somehow figured out where their car is. They went and got quarters, they put it in the parking meter. Then they come over and they say, don't worry, we just took care of the parking meter. Stay another hour. Right. That. It's stuff like that. That's like, bro.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, that's sick.

[Aaron]

Whoa. Or Disney. Disney World's a great example. The favorite example I've heard of that is. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's a theme park.

[Sean Deneen]

Great.

[Aaron]

But, but, but the experience Is everything.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Have you ever been?

[Aaron]

I have. And I want to go back before I design the next office.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, yes.

[Aaron]

With a notepad. Honestly.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes.

[Aaron]

And just experience it. Which will be a little weird as a single 30 something year old male.

[Sean Deneen]

No, no, no.

[Aaron]

I'm gonna have to have a cover story or something.

[Sean Deneen]

Plenty weirdos. I don't put a pair of Mickey ears. Yeah.

[Aaron]

There's. I'm gonna have enough story. But the trash cans.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If you're in Star wars world.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's a Star wars trash can. If you're an Indiana Jones world, it's an Indiana Jones jungle trash. They've designed the trash cans.

[Sean Deneen]

Yes, it is.

[Aaron]

To create such a seamless experience.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That is extraordinary.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. That was. So we went with our little ones and I was like, you know, I don't want to. I'm not too bothered about going. Yeah. I wish they were a little bit older so they couldn't understand it or whatever. But I was like a kid in the candy shop. Like the. For you for the details. Because I wasn't looking it for like they were. Obviously everyone was having a great time, but I was like the way they would the experience from entering a ride. And the. You're like, how did they. How is this even real?

[Aaron]

Sure.

[Sean Deneen]

And you just, you're walking through and you just questioning like the reality of it. So if you're able to like get people to question, like, how is this possible? That's the ticket right there.

[Aaron]

That's what I want to do. But for machines. Oh yeah. It'll be sick.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

One day.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I need another like 10 years.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the Dirt World experience.

[Aaron]

That.

[Sean Deneen]

That is sick. One of the. You know, one thing I went to recently, I was invited to the. The U.S. soccer headquarters. They built this. It's in Georgia. Wow. And I was blessed to go. Got invited by one of our clients, salta. They do like lock mechanics mechanisms. But when we got there, the security guard gave me a. A USA coin. And it's only for people that have actually been to the facility. But it's like a little like takeaway. And it was just a little coin. It probably cost them like $5 to make it. But I, I'd leave it in my office and I'd talk. Talk about it all the time. But it's. Those are like the small little details that like they didn't need to do that. Like they already had me. That's like a really cool space and place, right?

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

But by giving me that little coin, I Was like, wow, that's. That's just a nice touch, I think.

[Aaron]

I think experiences are coming back and then I think physical spaces will be more important than ever going forward. I think I just, I just never bought into the work from home thing. Yeah, I get it.

[Sean Deneen]

It's so funny for you to say that having like a remote company. Yeah.

[Aaron]

And most of. Most of our people work from home.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It drives me nuts. If I had to work from home, I. I know.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Forget it.

[Aaron]

Yeah, yeah, forget it. I'd be applying at a different company. I. I just. It's just missing something that's so human.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's missing. It's inhuman in a way. And I don't think it really aligns with human nature. I think it is more convenient. But there's a lot of things that are convenient that are not good for you.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

As well. And I understand, like, if you're. It is great for our people. It allows them the ability to, To. To see their kids more, be better, so on and so forth. There are so. I'm not saying like, we need to be. We're going 40 hours a week, five days.

[Sean Deneen]

It's got to be a middle ground.

[Aaron]

And we're never. We're always going to be remote in some capacity the way our business is designed. But I think people in general, there is a desire to be together. There is a desire for community. And spaces create that community. They facilitate that community. It's. It's amazing to me how a space can foster something extraordinary if it's. If it's well designed and if it's not, it's just doesn't do that. And I think that's where what you guys are doing again is. Is more and more and more and more important, creating these spaces that create. It's. You're not creating an office, you're creating a sense of community. I think the businesses that create a sense of community with their spaces and their offices are the ones that will have the strongest cultures, that will hire the best people, that will do the best long term.

[Sean Deneen]

I agree.

[Aaron]

I just, I don't see it another way because it's. Because it's in line with human nature. You can't. You can only push against human nature for so long. It snaps at a certain point in time and I think it already is unraveling in some way. It's just people want. They want to be around other people.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly. You just need literal FaceTime. Yes. Yeah, I agree.

[Aaron]

And that's. I think that you guys are a Big part of that for these Dirt World companies. Which is why it's so exciting to me to have like in the grand scheme of things would be all that exciting to have a guy making tables at Dirt World.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. I know. Yeah. That's, that's the beauty of. It doesn't make sense.

[Aaron]

It doesn't make sense. But I, the first time I saw you guys, I'm like, this makes perfect sense. Yeah, Yeah, I get it. Yes. We need more, we need more of this because this is exactly what the industry needs.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So. And that's what's cool is you got, you have a guy making tables next to a nutrition company next to a company making excavator buckets.

[Sean Deneen]

Right. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

It's dope.

[Aaron]

It's awesome. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

And there's just a lot of like similarities. Like even one of the. I post on LinkedIn recently, but the, when I come to the office bright and early, I'm going past construction sites and you see there's like a, a beehive of guys in the yellow vest and they're all together and it's like 7am if not earlier sometimes, but they're all together, having the meeting, getting on the same page and I drive past. I'm like, that's awesome.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Like no one else does that to that scale.

[Aaron]

It can be awesome.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, it can be.

[Aaron]

Most of those meetings are miserable.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh really? Okay.

[Aaron]

Unfortunately.

[Sean Deneen]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[Aaron]

Cuz it's all just rules, safety.

[Sean Deneen]

I know, I know.

[Aaron]

Drone on and on and on about stuff your phones so trips and falls. Seatbelt. Let me read off this piece of paper.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's an opportunity for something extraordinary.

[Sean Deneen]

So. Okay, I get it. Yeah. If it's delivered the right way.

[Aaron]

Done. Right.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

That's the most impactful 15 minutes of the day. Of the 10 hour day.

[Sean Deneen]

12 hour day. True.

[Aaron]

That is everything.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Unfortunately it's not done right very often.

[Sean Deneen]

Okay.

[Aaron]

But we're trying to help with that.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, Interesting. Okay. Because those are things as well that I want to, that I apply to my team. But that's such a good point. Don't just do it to do it. Like either provide like value or let's get on with the day.

[Aaron]

Yeah. I, it's, it's mostly to check a box.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I saw a guy, LinkedIn the other day and I appreciated what he was trying to do, but I was just like, I didn't comment or anything because like I'm not going to be that guy to ran on the parade. But he was like, yeah, I was, you Know, working out up at the hotel gym, a few stories up, looking out over a construction site. And I got to see all these guys stretching together as a team. And it's just amazing to see that culture is that good for them to be stretching. I'm like, well, they either do it or they're fired. Wow.

[Sean Deneen]

Someone needed to say that.

[Aaron]

I've been in enough of those meetings where I know that's not culture at some. It might be, but. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Why? It's awkward. Yeah.

[Aaron]

I don't think anybody wants to be doing that.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. I love that. That, that's so true. Yeah.

[Aaron]

But I was like, I appreciate what you're trying to do here.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

I.

[Sean Deneen]

From afar, it looks great. From someone that's not been in the trenches doing the stretches.

[Aaron]

Yes.

[Sean Deneen]

And been in those 7:00am meetings. Whatever. Yeah, that's so true.

[Aaron]

I was the guy. And I say that because I was the guy.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I was.

[Sean Deneen]

That's why there's value in what, 10

[Aaron]

years younger than I am now.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And I look pretty young right now.

[Sean Deneen]

Look the same, I'm sure. Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's brutal. Leading a guy of a bunch of grown ass men on the railroad doing their stretch and flex.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow.

[Aaron]

I was.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Definitely the most popular one out there. I was trying to fit in as is. And then I was the guy leading the stretch and flex. Like, yeah, dude, this sucks. Like, it was. That was probably the worst part about the job.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow.

[Aaron]

Making everybody do stretch and flex.

[Sean Deneen]

Interesting.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So how, like what is. How do you do a good 7:00am? Like, how do you deliver it the right way? Or is that a secret question?

[Aaron]

Great question. I think that's what we're trying to figure out and help facilitate. But I think it

[Sean Deneen]

almost needs personality

[Aaron]

or like the way I can tell a company's culture. One of the things I can tell a company's culture based on if it's just one guy talking the whole time.

[Sean Deneen]

Problem, basic.

[Aaron]

If there's multiple people talking, if it's a conversation, a facilitated conversation, it's not just a free for all.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But if it's a conversation, probably a better company.

[Sean Deneen]

Interesting. That's such a good point.

[Aaron]

In that meeting. Yeah. If there's engagement.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

If there's participation.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And eager, like a legitimate, like real participation. Not.

[Sean Deneen]

Not like they don't got questions.

[Aaron]

So. Yeah. Sean. Yeah. You're. You're looking down your feet. Sean, did you hear that? So what did I say? You know, like, you know, one of those.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It's like a teacher move. Oh, yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hello.

[Aaron]

And you look like an idiot. And now you're even more resentful.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, organic conversation, almost.

[Aaron]

When it's a real, genuine conversation, when it's talking about. And I'm not saying you can't talk about safety, but it's talking about safety in, like, a real, genuine, caring way. It's cool. It's. It's awesome. It's actually awesome to see. It's just so cool to see when

[Sean Deneen]

you'd be interesting to, like, have someone record one done. Right. Because I'm. Like you said, I'm sure so many people have been in those situations where it's done wrong or it's boring and it's, you know, it might be raining or whatever, but to see one that's done right, that I feel like it'll be a lot of, like, takeaway points that.

[Aaron]

Yeah, it's all. It's down to leadership communication.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And. And I think it's. It's not anybody's fault. It's just that whoever's leading that meeting, whether they're the, like, crew leader or superintendent or project manager, they're just. They don't have those skills.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

They're not equipped to even. It's public speaking.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Like, yeah, literally, they're not even equipped to speak publicly to. To a group of people. So that alone creates this barrier.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. And they might be going through some shit as well. So it's hard for life. You'll got a million things on their mind and.

[Aaron]

Yeah, you've got some inspector up your ass and. Yeah, you're already three weeks behind because of weather. Right.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You're not focused on, like, let's build some culture here.

[Sean Deneen]

Right, Exactly. But it's true. I actually lost one of my employees recently. Like, he died, which was crazy. So he was my. My new director of operations. And I'd known him for five years. Right. So I'd known him for five years. He's a bit of a mentor for me. And I told him, I always said, one day I want you to come and work for me. And then that. That happened. So this was like a couple, like a month ago. And he worked for me with me for three weeks. And then just one Friday morning, I was out in the workshop and one of the guys was like, hey, where's Gordon today? And I was like, good point. I don't actually know. Let me go back to my office and figure it out. And as I got back to my office, looked at my phone and. And there was a Voicemail from one of his good friends that just knew about Iron Age, that he'd been in a car wreck and passed away. And I was like, holy mackerel. Like, that is.

[Aaron]

That'll sober you.

[Sean Deneen]

That was. Yeah, yeah. And then for me, that was like balancing personal. Because I'd known him for five years. Like, my team don't known him for three weeks, but I'd known him for five years. So I was like, balancing the personal aspect, but also the business aspect of, like, I still need to fill those shoes. But, like, sure. Out of respect, you don't even want to even think about it. Right.

[Aaron]

Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

So then the next, like, week or the, the next. Yeah, the next week after that, like, I was. I. I was in the workshop and even one of my guys just noticed. He was like, I feel like you're just not yourself. And I was like, I'm really not. And it took him saying that for me to write, really think, like, I actually, I might need to talk to someone or I need a break or whatever. And I was able to have a little break and I got my mojo back and, you know, we're off to the races again. But that's, that's an example of, like, I still need to be a leader for my team and be this sprinkle, you know, Sean, dust on everyone and make sure everyone's having it, everyone's happy and. But if I'm not happy, then that's a problem. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's that being able to notice that. But that's kind of why I thought about those meetings as well, of, like, I couldn't have delivered or motivated people in those moments, you know, scary.

[Aaron]

That's. And that's part of my message now that I'm building up, currently up to Summit, is that, like, we have to be better mentally and physically as an industry. And that starts with us as leaders being better mentally and physically. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, we don't need to tell other people to take care of their. We've just got to take care of our.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And through that process, we'll help other people take care of what they need to take care of.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

But it start. It starts with us. It's. It's not worth talking about this. And that's not to say we shouldn't talk about it in general, but I think the talking about all that stuff's actually done more harm than good. It's created more resentment I've seen and heard in the industry, especially because this is a tough guy.

[Sean Deneen]

World. Right.

[Aaron]

About all the mental health stuff.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It starts with us as leaders handling what we have to handle. Because that's, I think the best thing I've done for our organization mentally is take care of myself mentally.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And then when I'm vulnerable, when I talk about it, it's. I mean, I can sit here and there's a lot of people that have been like, you know, I just, like privately, they'll be like, yeah, I just, I got help for the first time and I hadn't even thought about it until you were talking about it. And, and, and, and it's, it's a good feeling to know that I'm able to do that for our people genuinely. But I couldn't do that if I wasn't going first.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

I think that's. It was. That story reminds me too. There's a friend of mine, he has a shop of some sort and someone screwed up in the shop and died in the shop.

[Sean Deneen]

Wow. Okay.

[Aaron]

While working. And it was all in video and everything like that. So from a legal standpoint.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It wasn't a complete disaster. If it hadn't been on video, it would have been.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. And on the property.

[Aaron]

Lots of gray area.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

It would have been this whole drawn out ordeal. But it was just when I was talking to him about it, you could tell it just weighed so heavily on him. And he's, he. All of his energy went to everybody else in the business.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

And their family and like trying to reconcile it mentally.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

You know, somebody, somebody. It's still your responsibility at the end of the day. Yeah. You know, this kid, this and that. And you could just, you could almost like feel the weight of it on him. And I, like, I feel I can

[Sean Deneen]

relate to that massively. Yeah.

[Aaron]

I feel like in that situation I was able to recognize my role is just to be like, so how are you doing? Like, has anybody asked you how you're doing? And I know you don't even probably want to think about that because that probably makes you feel guilty, but how are you doing? Like, you weren't at fault here. It wasn't you that did this. And yet it's probably still like, you did do it.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

How do you even reconcile that? And even just like letting him talk a little bit, it's like, okay, this is. But, but when you're in that position, you're taking care of everybody else.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. No one's asking you how your day is. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Yeah. And you're not asking yourself how your day is because it's like, how dare I even think about myself right, when I've got all this going on or I've got this family to deal with and. But that, that creates a sticky, sticky situation.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, it's, but it's. Honestly, it's been very, very hard and I'm just now getting through it, but I like to talk about it. And I even had his best friend come out to the workshop because I wanted them to see like, what this guy was doing for us in his last, like, you know, last days. Right. Yeah. So it was, yeah, it was just a wild experience. Wild, wild, wild. But the, even with, that's the, with our workshop, it was a big deal bringing him in because he wasn't from within. It's always been very hard to bring outsiders into the workshop and then be accepted. So for the first I all I told him, I was like, I do not want you to do anything. All you have to do is earn the respect for my team. If you can't earn the respect for my team, it's not going to work out. So that's all he did. He literally went around and was just speaking to people and he was a very genuine guy and like he was very religious too, so he had some connections with people. And so even when, when I told everyone that one on that Friday, everyone like congregated around me and I was stood in the middle. I was like, I broke down, I was crying, I was really crying and I told him the news and, and then I kind of, I worked my way through it basically and everyone just froze. And I was like, go on everyone, go, go enjoy your weekends. You know, hold on tight to your loved ones. Like, this needs to be something that is a wake up call. Right. And everyone just froze. So it just, it just showed like what a, an impact that he had made. But also it just reminded me like, how, how lucky I am to have these people that actually care, that actually have hearts and they're just good people.

[Aaron]

Yeah. So it's also not that that's the way to get it, but a very valid reminder that is like, listen, this thing can end. And yes, literally I think about it all the time. Yes, I think about it all the time. I read in this, this book by Steve Irwin's wife how he was just always urgent because he, he in a way didn't think he was going to be around forever.

[Sean Deneen]

Interesting.

[Aaron]

Like he, he just acted with this urgency. And that's something that I try to foster within me too. Like I, I do need to be urgent because I don't. I don't know when this whole thing ends. I don't have a clue, man. I don't. I don't know. So I better do as much as I can right now because, yeah, like, best case scenario, I do get many decades, and it'll just. I'll just be better off. It'll just compound even further.

[Sean Deneen]

Right.

[Aaron]

Worst case scenario, I gave it my all. It ends sooner than planned, but I gave it my all. What more could I do?

[Sean Deneen]

Right, Exactly.

[Aaron]

So, yeah, that's true.

[Sean Deneen]

I make sure you got life insurance, too.

[Aaron]

I do. We have key man insurance now. We've got all kinds of insurance. Yeah. Business. Yeah.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

So how big of a policy do you need? All right, well, I'm. I'm really excited about what you guys are doing. I appreciate you coming up here.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah, definitely. I think it makes sense. Like, it's random and it's weird to even for us even to be, like, associate in a way, but it makes so much if, you know, Iron Age. It makes so much sense.

[Aaron]

I. Yeah, I don't. I don't think, like, I was just excited to talk to you. I'm just trying to make it. I just want to be excited. Whoever I'm having on, I want to be excited about.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[Aaron]

So that's kind of the criteria.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah.

[Aaron]

Like, it doesn't necessarily need to be. You don't need to be moving dirt.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I was looking as I was on the podcast, like. Okay, so other people that don't talk about construction, but some people. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[Aaron]

Right on. Cool. How do people find you guys?

[Sean Deneen]

Instagram, Iron Age office website. But go look our Instagram because it's badass.

[Aaron]

Okay.

[Sean Deneen]

And that's. That's where you get the goosebumps.

[Aaron]

Yeah. Very good.

[Sean Deneen]

Yeah. Right on.

[Aaron]

Well, thanks.

[Sean Deneen]

Thank you. Happy days.