#176. How To Improve Your Relationship with Yourself? - Unni Turrettini | Connection Expect

Summary

Discover More – Episode #176: "How To Improve Your Relationship with Yourself?"

Guest: Unni Turrettini (Norwegian author & speaker)
Host: Benoit Kim
Release Date: January 6, 2025

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Overview

This episode centers on the distinction between loneliness and aloneness, the crisis of disconnection in modern society, and the vital importance of self-connection as a foundation for healthy relationships with others. Guest Unni Turrettini draws on her research, writing, and lived experience to offer insight into loneliness as a wound of worthiness, societal pressures to conform, faith versus hope, survival mode, relational energy, and practical advice on finding belonging with oneself.

Turrettini and Kim weave together personal anecdotes, clinical wisdom, and sociocultural analysis to offer listeners tools for deeper self-understanding and more authentic, satisfying connection with others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Loneliness vs. Aloneness: The Epidemic of Disconnection

• Loneliness as Unworthiness:
  • Loneliness is defined not by a lack of people, but by the absence of meaningful connection and an underlying belief in one's unworthiness of love and connection.
  • “When you're saying that you're lonely, is that you don't believe that you are worthy of love and connection. That's really what loneliness boils down to.” (Unni, [00:00]–[01:40])
• Aloneness as Choice:
  • Aloneness can be nourishing, especially for introverts, and is not synonymous with loneliness.

2. The Role of Conformity and Belonging

• People often confuse “fitting in” (conformity) with true belonging.
• “Belonging means that you have to belong to yourself first ... you have to actually connect with yourself, get to know who you really are, and then have the courage to be who you are, even if or at the risk of not being approved of and accepted by everybody else.” (Unni, [05:07])
• Genuine belonging may require risking social disapproval to remain authentic.

3. Distraction, Productivity, and the Loss of Self

• Modern society encourages constant busyness and productivity—often as a way to feel worthy or avoid the discomfort of being alone with oneself.
• Benoit references “distracted productivity” (Cassie Holmes): “78% of Americans spend their days filled with distracted productivity.” ([10:15])
• The cycle of busywork can be a way to avoid facing feelings of unworthiness or unresolved childhood needs.

4. Living in the Present: Mindfulness and Hopelessness

• Hopelessness and anxiety are rooted in ruminating on the future or past; presence alleviates this.
• “If you feel hopeless, it's because you're thinking about the future. Come back to the present. Come back to the now.” (Benoit, [12:34])
• Hope vs. Faith:
  • “Hope is a beggar ... Faith is a decision that you make that even if you don't know, you choose to believe it anyway.” (Unni, [13:51])
  • Faith is presented as, “leap[ing] over the fire,” and is what unites us with our future selves.

5. The Challenge of Trust (in Self & Others)

• Many are raised to be hyper-independent and to override their intuition for social acceptance, leading to self-betrayal and lack of trust in oneself.
• The spiritual dimension is essential; openness to “something more” (God, Source, Universe) can foster trust and mitigate overdependence on the self alone.
• “We have an inner knowing ... but enough times we override that inner knowing ... That's a self betrayal.” (Unni, [17:40])
• The extent to which you see yourself limits or expands how well you can see and understand others.

6. Projection & Judgment

• “People who are the most judgmental externally are also the most self-critical internally ... That's called projection.” (Benoit, [21:31])
• Self-acceptance enables more generous, authentic relationships with others.

7. The Power and Necessity of Spirituality

• Spiritual health is newly recognized as a pillar of well-being in mainstream psychology.
• It’s not “either/or”: deep faith in oneself can make it easier to surrender and trust a higher power—this is counterintuitive to dominant cultural narratives of rugged individualism.
• “If you truly have faith in yourself, it's actually easier for you to surrender because that's faith.” (Benoit, [24:03])

8. Vulnerability, Achievement, and the False Self

• Achievements and social status can become substitutes for real self-connection.
• “I have everything ... I should be able to be happier. So I thought there was something wrong with me.” (Unni describes a personal low point, [28:16])
• Authenticity and gratitude can bring profound peace, even in mundane moments (“my espresso moment”—Unni’s spontaneous epiphany, [30:00]).

9. Happiness vs. Contentment

• Happiness is seen as a general baseline; contentment and peace arise in present-moment, mindful states.
• “I'm pretty happy as a person ... but I'm usually only content and truly at peace in those 30 minutes of meditation.” (Benoit, [35:17])

10. Survival Mode

• Most people live in survival mode 70% of the time.
• “When we're in survival mode ... we are not capable ... for us because so much of our, our brain is shut off ... So connection is off the table, collaboration is off the table ... love is off the table.” (Unni, [38:32])
• Survival mode is a major barrier to connection with oneself and others; it’s perpetuated by fear (media, societal narratives, trauma).

11. Loneliness and Attachment: Insights from True Crime Research

• Turrettini’s research on mass killers finds that severe adult loneliness and insecure childhood attachment are universal factors.
• For men in particular, lack of connection can result in destructive acts, while women may internalize or self-destruct.
• Socialization and patriarchy make it easier for women to seek support; men, constrained from vulnerability, may feel even more isolated.

12. Gender Dynamics & Social Pressures

• Women are pressured to be “100%” at home and at work and often resort to unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with disconnection (e.g., alcohol).
• Both men and women face unique struggles in modern society; true solutions require rebalancing connection with self and others.

13. Relational Energy [62:32]

• Coined in workplace research but applicable universally: relational energy is “the energy that is created in all our social interactions.”
• Even brief, authentic exchanges—like being greeted by name—can profoundly increase confidence, focus, and well-being (see Unni’s elevator anecdote).
• “That is relational energy demonstrated ... we can have these exchanges with, you know, really every single day.” (Unni, [65:49])
• Benoit extends this to neuroscience: social encounters can activate dopamine and positive states.

14. The Three Cs Framework

• Connection: With self first, then others.
• Confidence: Built from worthiness, enables more connection.
• Contribution: Giving of oneself creates meaning and satisfaction.
• Disconnection—even among high achievers—often manifests as a lack of joy, even when all “should” be well.

15. Ambition, Contentedness, and Life Stages

• As self-connection deepens, reliance on external markers of success diminishes; fulfillment shifts toward contentment and contribution.
• “The more reconnected I feel with myself, the less connections I need from externalities.” (Benoit, [81:43])
• “Contribution is a basic human need because giving of ourselves makes us feel, feel important. It makes us feel like we matter.” (Unni, [78:17])

16. Practical Frameworks and Closing Tools

• Hope as an Acronym: “Help One Person Every day”—iterative, simple contribution creates relational energy and self-worth ([84:45]).
• Self-care and intentional acts of kindness are synergistic: “When we help ourselves, we help others as a byproduct.” (Benoit, [86:10])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Worthiness & Loneliness:
  • “When you're lonely ... you don't believe that you are worthy of love and connection. That's really what loneliness boils down to.” (Unni, [01:20])
• On Belonging vs. Fitting In:
  • “When you're liked by everybody, chances are you don't like yourself.” (Unni, [05:07])
• On Distracted Productivity:
  • “We have an addiction to being busy and doing ... we needed to accomplish ... in order to feel worthy of love and connection.” (Unni, [07:42])
• On Survival Mode:
  • “Most people live in survival mode 70% of the time. That's a lot of survival ... connection is off the table, collaboration is off the table ... even love is off the table.” (Unni, [38:32])
• On Self-Compassion:
  • “Why are you beating up yourself over X, Y and Z? Life is doing plenty of beatings already.” (Benoit, [12:34])
• On Relational Energy:
  • “The way that we interact with people ... superficially ... can make a great impact when we're in that right state.” (Unni, [24:32])
• On Self-Connection:
  • “When I'm good with me ... I'm good with everyone.” (Unni, [83:41])
• On Life’s Bookends:
  • “The first person you're born with is yourself. The last person you're dying with is also yourself. So by that logic, what is the most important relationship in our life? Ourselves.” (Benoit, [82:05])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00]–[03:18] — Loneliness, Worthiness & Modern Epidemic of Disconnection
• [05:07]–[06:51] — Belonging vs. Fitting In: The Courage to Be Yourself
• [07:42]–[10:15] — Busyness, Productivity, and Avoidance of Inner Work
• [12:34]–[15:45] — Hopelessness, Mindfulness & the Power of Faith
• [17:40]–[21:31] — Trust, Intuition & The Cost of Self-Betrayal
• [24:03]–[28:16] — Surrender and Spirituality in Personal Growth
• [28:16]–[35:17] — Personal Anecdote: Fulfillment Versus Achievement
• [38:32]–[46:27] — Survival Mode, Neuroscience & The Effects of Fear
• [46:39]–[52:35] — Insights from True Crime: Loneliness, Gender & Destruction
• [54:25]–[57:43] — Gender, Patriarchy, and Social Support Systems
• [62:32]–[69:07] — Relational Energy: Small Moments, Big Impact
• [71:26]–[78:17] — The Three Cs & The Diminishing Returns of Achievement
• [84:45]–[86:10] — Hope As “Help One Person Every day” & Contribution

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Closing Tools and Takeaways

• Relational Energy: Small, intentional interactions (even with strangers) can boost well-being and connection.
• Morning Practice: Journaling and meditation, even briefly, lays a foundation for a more connected, peaceful day.
• Three Cs for Happiness: Connection (with self and others), Confidence (worthiness), Contribution (giving).
• HOPE: Help One Person Every day—a simple, action-oriented way to bring meaning and connection into daily life.
• Self-Connection First: The relationship with self is the original and ultimate relationship—tend it first, and all others benefit.

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Connect with Unni Turrettini:

• Instagram
• Substack & Newsletter
• She shares free resources for deactivating survival mode and building self-connection.

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“When I'm good with me, I'm good with everyone.”
— Unni Turrettini ([83:41])

“The first person you're born with is yourself. The last person you're dying with is also yourself.”
— Benoit Kim ([82:05])

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If this conversation resonated, consider helping one person reconnect—share this episode! And, as Benoit reminds: choose curiosity and love over fear.

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Transcript

[Uni Turatini]

Loneliness is also very tied up with worthiness. Because when you are lonely, what. What it really means, what you're really saying when you're saying that you're lonely, is that you don't believe that you are worthy of love and connection. That's really what loneliness boils down to. It's this belief that we're not worthy of love and connection. And that's why it's so painful as well. And because we, most of us, who are dealing with loneliness today are surrounded by people. It's so painful because it makes us think that we have failed at social relations. Uni Turatini is a Norwegian author, speaker and advocate exploring loneliness, social connection and societal issues. She authored the Mystery of the Lone Wolf killer, analyzing the 2011 Norway attacks and the lone wolf phenomenon, and Betraying the Nobel Prize. Uncovering politics behind the Nobel Peace Prize. With a background in law and international relations, uni combines research and insight to inspire empathy, inclusion, and meaningful dialogue on global challenges.

[Benoit]

Uni welcome back to Discover more.

[Uni Turatini]

Thank you so much for having me again, Benoit. It's a real pleasure to be here.

[Benoit]

So what is the difference between aloneness and loneliness?

[Uni Turatini]

I love that question, Benoit. So we can be alone and be perfectly happy. Aloneness is not the same thing as being lonely. Loneliness doesn't feel like a choice. You know, a lot of people, like my, like myself, for example, I'm an introverted person, quite introverted anyway, and I need time alone because that's how I recharge my batteries. But I have also had periods in my life, a lot of periods, actually, where I felt like I was lonely even if I had other people around me. So if you look up loneliness in the dictionary, it says that it's when you. Your need for connection isn't met. And so that's why we can be. We can be surrounded by people. But when the quality of our interactions, of our social relations are not satisfactory to what we need, we can still feel lonely. And today, in today's society, really, we. We have a problem of. It's really an epidemic, or even a pandemic of disconnection, I would call it. And loneliness is also very tied up with worthiness. Because when you are lonely, what. What it really means, what you're really saying, when you're saying that you're lonely, is that you don't believe that you are worthy of love and connection. That's really what loneliness boils down to. It's this, that we're not worthy of love and connection. And that's why it's so painful as well. And because we, most of us who are dealing with loneliness today are surrounded by people. It's so painful because it makes us think that we have failed at social relations.

[Benoit]

So how is it possible that we feel lonely, like you said, when we are surrounded by people filled with endless distractions and entertainment and even have respectable careers?

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah, it's possible to feel lonely when we're surrounded by other people because we are disconnected from ourselves. And when you mention the distractions, yes, we've been so distracted by society, by phones, by all these things that we are, that we care about more than our social interactions. And the thing, the thing why we are so disconnected from ourselves as well. It starts how we are, you know, from childhood really. We are programmed from early childhood to go out and be like the other kids. So being ourselves and being connected with who we truly are is not encouraged. So we go out, we start changing ourselves to fit in and we do this and we. We try to behave in a way that is that we believe is expected of us because we want to feel loved. We want to feel like we are recognized and accepted by. By whichever group we're trying to be in. And so we lose ourselves. And then as we continue, we grow up, then we have all these. That's when the distractions come in, really, and we are scrolling on our phones. And we are connected people through technology, but we're not connected with ourselves. We've lost who we truly are. And when we are disconnected with our own selves, we cannot have fulfilling connections with other people. It's not possible.

[Benoit]

I sense an undertone of conformity and belonging. What do you think is the difference between belonging to a village, a tribe that accepts you, and. Or conforming to a group of people, like you said?

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah. And that is, I think, a really important distinction and one that we should be talking about and should be teaching kids about. Because the thing about conforming is that we confuse fitting in, conforming to whatever we need to conform to. We confuse that with belonging. We think that, oh, if I will just be like they expect me to be, or I'll just be like the other people, then I'm going to fit in, then they're going to accept me and I'm going to belong. But that is a fake. Belonging and belonging actually takes a lot of courage because belonging means that you have to belong to yourself first. It means that you have to actually connect with yourself, get to know who you really are, and then have the courage to be who you are, even if or at the risk of not being approved of and accepted by everybody else. Because that's the thing. We're not meant to belong with everybody. We're. We're. We're meant to find our people, find the ones that we are that we correspond to or that we. That we feel that we. We can be ourselves with. And that means that there are some people who are not for us. And so we have to take that risk of not being liked by everybody. But when you're liked by everybody, chances are you don't like yourself. So we have to belong to ourselves first. We have to like ourselves first before we can find our tribe where we. Where we can feel that we belong.

[Benoit]

So how do we belong to ourselves? Because, again, I could talk about. There's endless distractions, technology, and I think the scariest word in America today for high productivity, high functioning folks is boredom. I think boredom is terrifying. And even I want to throw both of us under the bus. You're very busy, I'm very busy. And we, we happen to choose productivity and meaningful careers, projects, speaking engagements, writing, books, podcasts. So, yes, there are meaningful pursuits, but there's part of us who are also very allergic and cannot tolerate this boredom. The spaces in between of idleness. Another word that's been demonized by capitalistic America. Right. So how do we find belonging to ourselves when we barely have time to spend with ourselves?

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah, I also think that we have more time to spend with ourselves than we think we have. And I think this is, you know, our typical society, and not only in the United States, but I see that a lot in the United States, where, as you said, productivity is what makes you feel like you matter if you produce, if you are busy. We have an addiction to being busy and doing. We have to be doing. And where this comes from, in my view, this is. I talk about this as the high achiever, the person who has to be doing something and be busy and perhaps not even being that productive, but at least. And I. And this is something. I have to catch myself in this all the time, because I tend to, even on vacation, I get up early, you know, before my family, I go for a run, I go for a workout, I check my emails, I do like, I write, start writing an article, you know, before everybody gets up. That way I feel that I am worthwhile. I feel that I'm worthy of taking up space because. And that stems, in my case and in so many. So many other people. It stems from our childhood where we didn't feel seen, heard, and valued for who we were. And because of that we felt like we need to, needed to accomplish. We needed to get good grades, we needed to, to be good in good athletes, we needed to get great jobs and have a career and have all the things and accomplish all these things in order to feel worthy of love and connection. And so we, when we rest and when we don't do anything, which is the time that we can use to connect with ourselves and get to know ourselves, really, that we don't make the time for that. We'd rather just be doing, doing, doing for the sake of doing in order to feel worthwhile. And so I do think we have more time than we think we do if we just, if we just make better use of our time and be effective when we actually do something. And in my experience, when we are connected to ourselves, when we have taken the time to be good with us, with ourselves, that's when we can take aligned action as opposed to just being busy for the sake of being busy, if that makes sense.

[Benoit]

I interviewed Cassie Holmes, professor of psychology from ucla. She's like the experts on productivity and happiness. She coined a term called distracted productivity. And according to her research, 78% of Americans spend their days filled with distracted productivity. What that means is multitasking. Although multitasking is a myth, we switch task and women do do it faster than men do, just genetically and biologically with more like better lateral thinking versus linear thinking, generally speaking, going back to always busy with doing and doing and doing. What do you think we lose in the process by constantly trying to prove ourselves to others?

[Uni Turatini]

Well, first of all, we lose ourselves. We lose the connection that we have, that we used to have with ourselves. And we also lose really what we lose because we think by doing when, you know, by, by doing all these things, by accomplishing. We think that, oh, when I finally obtain that goal, when I do that, then I will be happy, then I'm going to feel good, then I'm going to relax, then I'm going to take a vacation. Then, you know, it's like always after that thing, that next thing. But what happens is we get to that thing, we obtain that thing, and then we don't even celebrate ourselves. Most of the time we just tick off that box and then onto the next thing because we never really feel fulfilled. So by doing, doing, doing, and this, I love that distraction, that term because we are distracted from the connection that we need. And then we never feel, we never feel fulfilled. We never feel like we can just be here now. So we lose the present moment, and life is in the present moment. So I think that we are only existing, really. And we are, you know, either, you know, thinking of the past, living, reliving things that happened in the past, or worrying about the future. So we're never really here now, and which is where life is and where we're supposed to be really, truly living and being present with the people around us. So we lose that connection with ourselves, but also with the people around us.

[Benoit]

And again, as a clinician in psychotherapy, if you look into the research of hopelessness, it is a fact that you can only feel hopeless when you're ruminating about the future. Because when you're in the presence by being mindful about now, you literally cannot feel hopeless because you're here, you're now, you're alive, but you feel hopeless. And these depressions, anxiety, all these things start creeping in, like you said, when we are feeling depressed about what happened to us, the mistakes we made, the self judgments, the negative self talk, the criticism. And I often tell my clients and patients, why are you so like, why are you beating up yourself over X, Y and Z? Life is doing plenty of beatings already. It's like they're in the boxing ring. I use this analogy a lot in my clinical work. I'm the coach. I'm yelling, not literally, but I'm yelling metaphorically outside the boxing ring. But my clients are the ones that swinging in life, and that's also being punched by life. And life is hard, so why are we making it even harder by being so critical and negative about ourselves? And I tell them, if you feel hopeless, it's because you're thinking about the future. Come back to the present. Come back to the now.

[Uni Turatini]

Oh, that's really good. I like that a lot. I have a friend of mine who said something about hope to me the other day. I don't know if it's his quote or someone else's, but he says, he said, hope is a beggar. It walks through the fire, faith leaps over. And that just hit me so deeply. And it also makes me feel like hope is, you know, when you are worrying about the future, you're separated from who you want to be and where you want to be. Whereas when you're in the present moment, you're living it now. And that's when you can become who you want to be. And, and so there's that, I think so much of our disconnection. It's just what you said. It's like living in. You're always ruminating and thinking about the future and you're separated from it. And then faith, how faith comes into that. Faith is a decision, and I think a lot of our disconnection and polarity, and I talk a lot about lack of trust as well, because that plays a big part in why we feel so disconnected and lonely as a society. Faith is. We've lost faith. And what is faith really? Faith is a decision that you make that even if you don't know, you choose to believe it anyway. And then it's like you choose to believe that there is a path, but you just have to take the first step, even if you don't see the path. And the path will appear when you take the step. That's what faith is to me. And I think hope keeps us in separation, and faith unites us with our future self and who we truly are, if that makes sense.

[Benoit]

I love the topic of faith, and like you said, trust. We'll go into it, and this is a very complicated topic, but I often talk about this urgency, this arbitrary urgency for a lot of us with big dreams, big visions, personality traits, and so on. I often ask myself, Benoit, if you have enough validation, if you really have enough evidence that you can trust and have faith in your ability to pursue whatever I want to pursue, podcasts, my clinical work, or otherwise, if I truly do have faith and trust in myself, why do I feel like I'm being chased by this invisible dragon always? Why do I feel like I'm being pursued by this arbitrary urgency? Like, what is the urgency? If I believe in myself, timeline should be obsolete, right? But if I don't believe in myself, then I have this urgency that if I don't achieve this next year, then it's doom and gloom, then I will never do it again. But I realized, oh, that's a mindset, because for some whatever reasons, my faith is not deep enough and my trust in myself and my confidence is not deep enough. And I often tell my clients that, like, we will never know how future is going to be. We don't know. Sure, we could have faith, we could be optimistic and so on, but I often tell them it's a better framework and way of thinking if you trust in yourself. What I mean by that is you don't know how tomorrow's gonna be, but, you know, you survived yesterday. Let's examine our lives. How many hard things have you moved through? How many obstacles and hardships and trauma we're able to rebound and heal from? If you did that, why wouldn't you be able to deal with tomorrow. And I think that's the confidence and trust we do. But not many people have that.

[Uni Turatini]

So true, so true. And when it comes to trust, there's also why we struggle so much, I think, and why I struggled so much. I was brought up to believe that I had to do it all myself. I had to be so strong, I had to be so independent. And when we are disconnected, so there's that combination. You have to do it all on your own, but you're also supposed to fit in. So you lose yourself. But when you lose yourself, you also don't trust yourself. We all have an inner knowing. We all have this core. Who knows what the right thing to do is? We all have it if we connect with it. We can call it intuition, we can call, call it our higher self or our, our soul, whatever that is. And enough times we override that inner knowing because of other people's expectations or because we listen more to the voices outside of ourselves than our own. That's a self betrayal. And so then we lose trust in ourselves. But there's another aspect to trust as well, is that we, we really, truly believe that we are so, that we have to be so independent and do everything ourselves. And we've lost connection to, to this other sort of spiritual aspect of life, if you will. I call it spiritual. There is something out there because we know there's more to life than just us and our physical body. And we can call it God, we can call it whatever we want to, it doesn't really matter. We can call it source or the universe or whatever, but there is something, there is an infinite intelligence out there ready and willing to help us, but we have to let it in. We have to ask it for help. And I think a lot of our distrust and our difficulties and why we have to work so hard and that we're so busy also is because we don't lean on that thing to help us more. And I believe that when we start opening ourselves up to. Because it's really hard to trust something that you can't see and that is not, you know, measure measurable. When we open ourselves up to that aspect of ourselves that we are dimensional beings, we are not just the physical flesh and blood that we can see and hear and feel with our, our senses, that we are so much more than that. And, and Einstein, a lot of scientists, you know, have said this, that we are energetic beings and we are interconnected with everyone and everything. And when we open ourselves up to that connection and allow and trust that Trust not only in my own plan for myself, but in the plan for uni, and that there is a plan of goodness for me, regardless of whatever I might think. It's. Life just gets easier. And as I'm starting to open myself up more to that aspect of myself, I feel that my intuition has gotten stronger, my direction has gotten stronger, my trust in myself has gotten stronger, and my trust in other people as well. Because the more I get to know myself in that, the more I also see other people and I understand where they are coming from. There is something that, that, that says that you can only see other people to the extent that you see yourself. And so. And I'm sure that that's something that you also use a lot in your practice as well. Right. Because you have done a lot of work on yourself. So you, for you, it's, it's. You have to use it right. In your practice to be, to be able to see other people and perhaps see where they. They have blind spots. Right?

[Benoit]

Mm. What you're describing clinically is called projection, is we project our insecurities and when we lack onto other people, people. And of course, there's nuances. And this is a generalized statement. People who are the most judgmental externally are also the most self critical internally. People who like to judge and point fingers at other people, they're deep inside, constantly pointing fingers at themselves. So it's called projections. We project what we lack, and that creates this insecurity. Goggles. And everything we see, we view other people through this insecurity and what we lack. But conversely, when we are confident and when we've done the work, and when you have faith in yourselves, you also project that. So, for example, I like to praise people a lot. And I don't butter people up, I don't fluff people. That's very fake. And, and you lose credibility. Like when you praise people very easily, your praise loses its essence. So I only praise people when I mean it, especially in my clinical work. Because you want to, you want to be very consistent. You want to create a culture of expectations. That's how you gain trust. Someone told me this years ago. They said, hey, Benoit, you talk about your wife, you talk about your friends. You're like the best hype man. I hype all my friends and all my people very genuinely. And she asked, you probably do that because you have confidence and you have faith and you're comfortable with yourself. That's why you're also comfortable praising and highlighting other people's strength.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah.

[Benoit]

Because if you're insecure, you won't be able to praise other people because you get triggered, you get reactive, you feel small.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah.

[Benoit]

And I really loved you. Brought in spiritual. American Psychology association apa they just incorporated spiritual health as part of wellness. So before that, what we call biopsychosocial assessment, biology, psychology and sociology in terms of our health, well being and environments. But now it's bio, psycho, social, cultural and spiritual. Since cultural also impacts your health and spiritual also impacts your health. And I just had a. I never made this connection, but when you're talking about, and I'm flushing this out for the first time, I realized for those of us who don't have enough faith in ourselves, it's hard for us to surrender to a higher being.

[Uni Turatini]

Yes.

[Benoit]

But it's the opposite because I think society think that, oh, if you really believe in yourself, you don't need God, you don't need other people, you don't need a higher being. But if you really dig deep, if you truly have faith in yourself, it's actually easier for you to surrender because that's faith. So when you feel like you cannot surrender, it's actually insecurity, it's actually a proof that you don't have faith. It's very counterintuitive. I don't know if that makes sense.

[Uni Turatini]

It makes totally sense. And that's why I think it takes a lot of courage and confidence in yourself to really, it's a, it's a leap. Right? You're leaping into something unknown and that takes tremendous courage and, and confidence to do so. So that makes total sense. And I love that they incorporated spirituality because we are spiritual beings whether we like to talk about it or not. And I know, I mean coming from. I'm an attorney by training, having worked in law and finance for, for a long time in that world. We do not talk about the spiritual. Like we, that's not part of. So you know, it's something that I've resisted for a really long time, but that I finally sort of given into and realizing that without that aspect of myself, it's, it's like I'm not a whole person because we, we just are spiritual beings. And I think the more that we realize that we really are connected to one another and how my energy affects your energy and, and everyone, like we have a, we are so powerful really. We have this, this, this opportunity to positively affect people around us with our energy. And so for me, because I, I came up this, you know, sort of human connection when I first started researching and doing this Work. About a decade ago I was like, I'm going to save the world, I'm going to help everybody. But really now I see it like I've come down from my, from my pedestal a little bit like my own, you know, self imposed pedestal is that really if I want to help the world, you know, I become a better person myself. And not only become a better person, but really I work on myself. And so I have this like morning practice where I meditate and I journal and I decide who I want to be that day, every single day. Because the more connected I am with myself and with my whole self, also that spiritual part of myself, the, the more I can do for other people just by being in that energy. Even if I don't necessarily say anything. But just like the way that you, the way that we interact with people, you know, randomly in the elevator, you know, and buying our coffee and just interacting superficially with people actually can make a, a great impact when we're in a, in that right state.

[Benoit]

I love your evolution of human connection. As we talked about before we recording, you're shifting slowly from connections with others to connection or reconnection with ourselves because we were born connected and we became disconnected over time to society, everything. But before we talk about connections, I want to get a little bit personal. Uni. Would you mind sharing maybe one example that you can recall now in terms of what happens when you did give in like you said, when you did surrender. Because like you said like we are very head heavy. We lead with our minds, our intelligence, our cognitive processing, etc. But I think I've become more heart led. I've always been very cognitive but now I'm trying to be more heart centered. Of course mind and body, we need both. And I sense that for me too. But could you share maybe like a spiritual moment or some sort of surrendering you've done recently and what happens with that process us?

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you're so right. I mean I lived completely in my mind before I just my, I realized that my heart was, was really closed and probably has been since I was a young child probably. And you know, from, you know, from just disappointments and, and things that happen and I have this moment, this was, this is a few years ago. I remember thinking when I was a career woman working in line finance that because I really wanted to get married, I really wanted to have kids and I remember thinking that oh the day I'm married and I, and I have my first baby then my, I'm good, I'm Then, you know, it's like the Disney, you know, then, like, my life will begin, kind of, right? And that didn't happen. I did not feel more fulfilled, even if. Even if I love my family more than anything. But I didn't. It didn't give me that sense of fulfillment that only your connection with yourself can give you. So I remember feeling really lost back then because I was thinking, what. Like, what's. What's wrong with me? I. I have. I'm married to the greatest man. I. And then I had a second baby as well. So I had two small children at home. I had a, you know, a network, an international network of wonderful people. I have friends. I have family. I have a career. On paper, I have everything. I have a life that other people dream of having. And I couldn't even talk to anyone about my own dissatisfaction, my own emptiness, because, like, who am I to complain? I. I have everything, you know, I should be able to be happier. So I thought there was something wrong with me. And that's when I. And I didn't know how to deal with this. And I. I went into therapy. I did coaching. I started. Started reading books. I even started, you know, meditating, practicing yoga. I did, like. I did so many things. I tried pretty much anything at this point because I was desperate to understand why I was so unhappy, what was wrong with me. And. And even though. And it was. It was almost like nobody could really tell me. Perhaps they did tell me, but it's not. It's. Maybe I just didn't. I couldn't absorb it. I couldn't integrate the information properly because I was so disconnected from myself. And then I remember having this moment in. In my kitchen. I was in my kitchen. I had pressed the button on my Nespresso machine, and I'm watching the coffee pouring into my cup. And I was alone at my house. Nothing was happening. The kids were out of the house. And all of a sudden, I'm not. I just noticed that I'm not regurgitating that to do this to do list in my head. And I'm not thinking of all the ways in which I failed as a mom and trying to do it all and trying to have this career and. And have a family. And I felt this incredible peace. And I could feel this, like, warm feeling in my body. And I could feel my heart. And it was like. It was. It was pounding in my buttock, feel my heart beating inside my body. And it was almost like I was kind of having a heart issue, but it felt really Good. It didn't feel scary. I just felt really at peace and really grateful. And in that moment, it was like I could see my life. I was observing my. My life. And I could see all the ways in which I had changed myself and put on these masks in order to fit in, and. And I lost myself. I could see was like I was watching my life and how. And all this. All these things, and. And I realized that, like, all my own stuff, like the stuff that it's not important, all the things that I thought was important, the. The social status and the materialistic objects, all those things that I thought were really important and none of that mattered in that moment. And I just felt so incredibly grateful for the people that I love in my life and also for myself. Grateful for everything that I had gone through that had put me in this moment, even if it was like it. It wasn't even really an important moment. It was just me there with my coffee. And so that was a big moment for me. And I kind of hoped that I would stay there, that that was it. Like Eckhart Tolle, you know, when he talks about his. In his sort of spiritual awakening, that he. He kind of just became this spiritual person and he just stayed there. But for me, that didn't happen. And I mean, I wish it. Wish it did, right? And then I had to figure out in my busy life, how do I get back to that stillness, to that gratitude, to that feeling of peace and gratefulness? And that's when I started incorporating more of a. Of a practice. I started journaling to. To just. To really. To write down my feelings, write down my emotions and make sense of it. And I. I noticed that I really enjoy writing and writing for me, and that's really my first book, the Mystery of the Lone Wolf Killer, where I write about these mass shooters, these mass killers around the world and their loneliness, their disconnection, and how I felt connected to that disconnection and to them, because I knew that disconnection. I knew that feeling of not belonging as well. And for me, writing became my therapy, and it became my way of. Of starting to heal by writing in a way. Although I didn't write my. Really, my story in that book, but it was also writing to understand, researching to understand, really, myself. So that was, you know, really coming to terms with. With me in my culture, in. In my, you know, home country, my. The culture in my home country of Norway and in the world. So, yeah.

[Benoit]

And it's interesting. He talks about, like, the false self. That's another Psychological term is we put on all these armors, accolades, validations, whatever. But if you just think about semantically, how can you connect or stay connected with your false self? It's false, it's a facade, it's illusion. So by nature, you cannot stay connected with your false self. And I think that's why when we navigate our lives through this false self narrative, doesn't matter how many externalities, how many external things pile on top, they're just piling on top of the false self. So we actually just have more layers of false self. So we have to peel back the onions and kind of shed the false self, get back to our inner self, the inner child, who we are. And it's interesting because I've been thinking a lot about the difference between happiness and contentness, and I don't want to get caught up in semantics. And people use them very differently. So, for example, I'm pretty happy as a person. I meditate every morning for 30 minutes for five years now, every single day, never skip the day. So I. I'm generally out of. Out to 7.8 out of 10 happy throughout the day. Of course, there's depressive moments, things happen, family life and so on. But as a baseline, I'm pretty happy as a person. But one of the only moments why I feel at peace, like your espresso moments, truly, your mind disappears. Everything disappears. It's just yourself in this perfect bliss of stillness. I've experienced that before. It's an amazing feeling. I only feel at peace and truly content during those 30 minutes when I meditate in the morning and throughout the day when I achieve something like, even for podcast, I feel very happy and content when I'm actually doing these conversations with you and other guests. But then, as you know, conversation is only 20% of the business, 80% is SEO, marketing, advertising, outreach, and so on. And I don't really feel at peace or joy or blissful when I'm doing these things. I'm happy, but I'm not content because I'm always striving for the next, like you said, the next milestone. So it's interesting. I think there is a difference between, for me, happiness and contentness. I am happy as a person, but I'm usually only content and truly at peace in those 30 minutes of meditation. And I think it's very interesting to think about.

[Uni Turatini]

I love that distinction that you make between those two. I hadn't thought about that before. It's really, it's really good. And I also, I also find that, you know, the Reason why I couldn't stay in that bliss, right? Stay in that contentment and stillness. I like to call it point zero. When you're really just. You're just there and you're just, you know, in this. In this now, this present moment, which is so powerful. And of course, because of the, you know, all the things that, like, we're rushing from one meeting to the next to, you know, you know, like, I have kids, so it's like picking up the kids from school, doctor's appointments, activities, all these things, right, that we're rushing to do. And my practice now, though, more and more. And I also have this, like, morning practice where I meditate and all that. And it truly helps me. And my. And I'm extending this meditation practice now to being in a meditative state. Even though I'm doing other things, even though I have. I'm like my. I'm driving or my eyes are open and I'm talking to my daughter or, you know, dealing with something. And I think for me, it really is. And I. And I don't manage, you know, I'm not even close to where I would like to get. But I feel that I'm more in flow and I'm more present with the specific tasks that I have in front of me, even if it's marketing or accounting or something that I really don't enjoy doing or tech issues or whatever. And being present with that specific task, I find really helps me. And that's also when I can feel. I can feel even then sometimes a sense of flow and bliss in those moments that are really boring. And that perhaps doesn't take a lot of creativity. Of course, as human beings, we, you know, we are wired for connection with others. And so it's true that before I was always focused, focusing on the how do we improve our connection with other people? And like so many other people do. And now I'm more focused on the connection with us, ourselves, our own selves, because that's where it is when we can be connected with ourselves in every interaction that we have with other people. We are in that meditative state. That's where we can really be there and we can listen, we can really see the other person. Because we're not in survival mode. I think a lot of our disconnection and something that I talk about a lot these days, and I'm writing. I'm starting to write a new book now, which, you know, it's. It's. I'm really, really excited about. It's going to be a Pure human connection book. So it's not going to be about, you know, lone wolf killers or any other topic. It's going to be really about human connection and how to connect with oneself. And one of the things that is standing in between us and connecting with ourselves and other people is survival mode. I read a research paper that said that most people live in survival mode 70% of the time. That's a lot of survival. Like we're always scanning for danger in that state. We're suspicious of other people. We don't trust ourselves, we don't trust other people. We are not capable. It's not possible for us because so much of our, our brain is shut off in surveillance. I mean, you know this from psychology. It's really neuroscience. We are disconnected from parts of our brain. So connection is off the table, collaboration is off the table. Seeing ourselves as dimensional beings is off the table and even love is off the table. So we might think that we're in love, we might think that we're connected with other people real. But really it's at a, you know, it's on a superficial level. And so that's where the dissatisfaction that I felt comes in.

[Benoit]

Survival mode is very interesting. And I know the neuroscience pretty well. It's. And I mean, just for research, even with mass murders or not, we all know crimes of passions. We see news about boyfriends killing their girlfriends, their husbands stabbing their wives to death like 15 times after like 25 years of marriage. And people are like, how can that be? And I have clients and my friends saying that of course not stabbing anyone, but they're like, how? I can't believe I did that when I was so angry. I cannot believe I did that. X, Y and Z. And I tell them when you're in. We call this like amygdala, right. That's like the fear center, but that's also in charge of pleasure. When you're amygdala, the firefighter freeze goes online. Your neocortex, the thinking brain goes offline. Yeah, it's literally default network process. So when you're in flights, fight or freeze or scared or survival mode, so to speak, when you're angry, same thing. You literally cannot think straight. It's a neuroscience by design. So no wonder people. I can't believe I did that. I was so angry. I was so anxious. Yeah, that's biology. That's how we're designed. And I think it's very interesting he talks about the survival mode because you're right. When we are constantly living in fear and this is why mainstream media uses fear a lot as tactics. They're hijacking our neuroscience because they know when we are in fear mode, we cannot think for ourselves. That's how propaganda works. If you look at, I had a former CIA spy, Andrew Bustmante, on the podcast last year.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah, yeah, I saw that.

[Benoit]

That was so good. And yeah, he's, he's, who knows? He, he's, it's hard to tell if someone's how genuine because he's so trained on a world class level as an intelligent officer. But I enjoy meeting him in person. He also talks about in CIA or I guess terrorism groups. That's how they brainwash people. We all know those stories of people who are very innocent, very docile, very meek as people, but in couple of years they become suicide bombers. It's like, how can they be right? Like how do you change someone so dramatically is through fear you identify a common enemy. Thankfully for CIA or for intelligence officers or agencies, the common enemy is whatever hostilities against America. Right. And of course, as citizens of America, we benefit from that. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but we do have to acknowledge our privileges. But for terrorism group, they're saying that, oh, the enemy, the American, the anti Americanism. Right. Whatever slogan they want to preach. So they start with fear. They put you in a fearful state. And that's how brainwashing begins. Because when you're in a fearful state, you cannot think for yourself. So you take in and internalize whatever they teach you as like the Bible and the altar. So it's interesting that you're talking about survival mode as part of your obstacle to reconnecting with yourselves and others. Because when we're scared, why will we trust other people? Why will we reach out? We wouldn't.

[Uni Turatini]

Exactly. And then we get triggered by things that, and people that shouldn't even trigger us. Like we can get triggered by our own kids, our spouse, our, our, our boss, our colleagues, you know, pretty much anyone who disagrees with our opinion. And so survival mode really explains why our world looks the way it does right now, why we can't sit down and have a, a conversation or not. Not everyone, but a lot of people, you know, are not speaking with their family members, you know, over politics. Right. Because they're not voting for the, for the same candidates for presidency. And that's survival mode. That's the fear speaking. And so I think really survival mode is something that we need to educate people about and then help people deactivated so that we can Connect with the thinking part of the brain. Really I like to call it the CEO part of the brain because it's really, that's where we can make long term decisions and, and, and reflect. Right.

[Benoit]

So I do want to. Because you brought up your book the Mystery of the Lone of killers. I'm curious Uni, how has your perspective shifted about loneliness since when you wrote that book almost 10 years ago.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah, it for me that's that book. I didn't realize the loneliness problem until I started researching for that book. When I started researching all these lone wolf, these mass killers. A mass killer is someone who's killed four or more people in one day. That's how the FBI defines a mass killer. So it's not a serial killer, it's a mass killer. It's someone who identifies with an ideology and kills in the name of the ideology. He is, we can also call, call him a terrorist because of the ideology factor. And I say him because it's very rare to have female mass killers. And I was interested in how could this happen. I mean I didn't have any of the answers. I just needed to know how someone like the person, I started studying the person in Norway, Anders Breivik, who killed 77 people in one day in 2011. And I believe that is, yeah, it's probably the biggest attack on Norway at least since World War II. So it was a huge blow to my country and even to the world. It was really shocking how this young man, 32 years old, who looks like me, grew up a 20 minute drive from my parents house. How he could turn into a mass killer seemingly overnight. And so I just started reading and studying and, and then started studying other similar killers around the world and speaking with experts and, and got in touch with the FBI and a former FBI profiler who also wrote the the forward to my book. And realizing that regardless of where these men came from and their background and their ideology, the ideology is actually irrelevant as long as there's something they believe in, that they kill in the name of that, in that belief. But really what it boils down to is a young man who doesn't fit in, who doesn't feel like he belongs in his community, in his country, really in the world. And that lack of connection, that lack of belonging and the tremendous loneliness that happens when you're an adult that had and has grown up with insecure attachment. Right. So you didn't feel, you didn't have that, that attachment to a parent or other grown ups that you needed in order to feel Safe. And so, and so they cannot really connect and attach to other people as adults. And because they can't attach to adults, they connect with and replace human connection with the ideology. That's what happens in these cases. And, but when I read about, and really, you know, because a lot of them, they, they, they wrote manifestos and in those manifesto, although, although there's a lot of, you know, talk about the ideology, you can read, you can feel the loneliness. You can feel that pain of not having, not feeling that you belong. And I recognized myself in that pain. And that was, I believe, the biggest insight and awakening that I, that I probably had in my life is that when I realized that all these killers and I were not that different and yet I turned out pretty okay doing okay in my life, and they didn't. So what, so what went wrong? And, and that's when I started digging into and studying loneliness and human connection and what makes, what makes people really happy, what, what triggers us to, to do these horrible things, and sometimes not, and then other times turn out pretty okay. And I think for me anyway, I replaced human connection with achievement and connection with myself. I replaced that. I, in order to feel worthy of love and belonging, I would get good grades, I would have a career, I would obtain really hard things and, you know, get three law degrees in different countries, because why not? Because that made me feel more important and more lovable and just collect all these things and even people, you know, having an impressive network and status and all these things that I thought was really important to have and it made me feel like I was somebody, but really feeling very, very unhappy and dissatisfied and empty in my life, that that's how I really felt. So understanding and just realizing that I also thought that, well, if I'm feeling this, I can't be the only one. And when I started sharing sort of my own dissatisfaction and stories on social media, that's when interesting things happened because I had reels go viral and people reach, you know, hundreds of people reaching out to me and, and sharing with me their stories and telling me that, oh my God, I can't believe you just put words to something that I've been feeling. But I didn't know how to even talk about it. So I, I knew that I had hit a nerve with that. And so, and that's, so that's my work moving forward is really helping people understand how disconnected we are and, and how to reconnect with ourselves.

[Benoit]

This is not a true crime podcast, but I want to share something because I know that I know the demographic split between male serial killers and mass killers and female serial killers and mass killers. Like you said, it is predominantly male. And there is a few females, of course, and some. There's a lot of factors. Right. But from my own studies, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, there is a. One of the biggest contributing factors to why more males commit these atrocious mass killings than females is because it's easier and more natural for females to reach out for help. And loneliness. Or generally speaking, of course, we all feel loneliness. It's a human experience. Like we talked about. It's an epidemic. It's a pandemic. But generally speaking, more females have more social circles. The way even females connect with each other is more intimate. Being vulnerable and expressing your feelings, your inner state of mind is more normalized and accepted for a lot of females because the patriarchy. As men, you should be mod, chill, tough, never share emotions like a robot AI till you die. So that is a huge contributing factor to why more males commit these acts because we have less social supports. And another thing, another interesting research I came across last year is a research by Harvard. They're talking about how many spouses. So how many male spouses view their female spouses as their best friends and how many female spouses view their male spouses as best friends? Way more. Yeah. Way more husbands. Yeah. Way more husbands say that their wives are their best friend number one. I think it was like 68%. A lot. A lot. Like 68, 70% of husband says, yeah, my best friends are my wife's. Makes sense.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah.

[Benoit]

Only 36% or less than 40 of wives said that their husbands are their best friends.

[Uni Turatini]

Wow.

[Benoit]

I'm not saying that they're not their best friends, but a lot of wives and female partners have more best friends and more intimate avenues than males do. And this is also the reason why, like the heartbroken syndrome, it's generally speaking, when, like a married couple, after 20, 34 years of marriage, in their advanced age, when one of your spouses die, they also die soon after. It's a natural phenomenon, and it's been documented scientifically. More males die from heartbroken syndromes after their wives pass away first. Way less, way fewer wives die from heartbroken syndromes after their husbands pass away. It's exactly because they have more social connections and they're less lonely as a whole. So.

[Uni Turatini]

So interesting. Yeah. And also there's, you know, coming back to the. To the. To the why mostly men commit mass murder is that women also tend to in addition to what you said, what I found is that in my research was that women tend to self destruct before they hurt other people, whereas men can have this, this, this aggression that they take out on other people, which is the case in these mass, mass killings.

[Benoit]

Yeah. This is not related, but I just briefly talk about patriarchy. I'm sure you experienced this as you talked about as a career woman, you also want to have family, children. I heard this from a lot of my parents, friends. And this is also, I guess symptom of patriarchy or paternalistic framework is if you're a mother and a career woman, if you have family portraits in your office. Right. People might say, hey, why are you thinking about your family? You should be focusing on work. But if you have fathers and husbands with family portraits at their desk, do you know what people say? You're such a wonderful father, you're such an amazing family person. So Eve. Right. And there's all these implications where as a woman you have to pick between family or career. And if you're. Because my sister in law, she, she almost became a lawyer. She worked at one of the most prestigious law firms as a paralegal. She went to Berkeley. But then she chose to settle down as a stay home mother because they have three children. It's like the opportunity cost and so on. And when she hangs out with her friends for her parents or. No, no. When she hangs out with her friends who are career women, they said, oh, it must be nice to be as a stay home mother. Even though she has three children. Right. And so I feel like as a woman in today's society, of course we've come a long way, especially in Scandinavian countries like Norway. I think we're always. Or women are always constantly forced to choose. If you choose career, then you don't care about your family enough. If you choose your family, you're not ambitious enough. And it's interesting how like the male female dynamic really permeates beyond mass killing loneliness. And again, I think it's a societal, cultural issues at large.

[Uni Turatini]

It's something that, it's, it's so, it's so interesting and it's something that I, I have a daughter, I have a son and I have a daughter. And I'm, and I'm wondering how do I like I, you know, she's at that age now, you know, teenagers, early teen, that I can start talking to her about these things. But it's hard to give advice because I know like I've been in, you know, working in that very Sort of male dominated industries, law, finance. And I remember there were so many times where I was the only woman in the room, only woman at the conference. And of course there are advantages too. You know, I can't say that there was. I mean it, you know, it opened a lot of doors just because there is that always that tension between men and women and it can be an advantage. And I for sure took advantage of that as well. So I have a lot of positive experiences in that world as well. I got a lot done because I'm a woman. But I for sure felt that too, that it's really tough to. And I made that choice to, to quit, you know, my job when I, when my kids were young and because I wanted to be there when they grew up. I wanted to see them, you know, taking their first step and, and you know, all those, all those like, moments. Right. And I think it's just really hard for women to do it all because even, even if Scandinavia and yes, it's true, we've come, you know, come a long way here. But even like I see this with all of my, all of my girlfriends here who are career and they're all career women and mothers and it's just really tough. And they live in survival mode because they don't have time to, they really don't have time to think of and to reconnect with themselves. And the, the few, the few moments they have to themselves is often to, to be able to relax a little bit from that state of survival. They turn to alcohol, they turn to, you know, drinking and wine and champagne. And it's become this acceptable way in society to, to relax and to enjoy life. And, and I see how, but it also take, it takes a toll. It makes you tired, it makes you, it disconnects you even further from yourself is my personal experience. So I rarely drink anymore just because I, I don't want, I don't want that disconnection that happens, you know, immediately when I have a little bit of wine. So I just try not to drink because it's. That connection is so precious to me. But I see my friends suffering from that and, and especially women because they have that pressure of, of always being 100% at home, but also 100% at the office. And then you need to be 100% friend and wife and all these other roles too. So it's just really tough to be a woman. Having said that, though, I think it's a really tough world for men too. I don't have the answers to all of this, but I just observe how because of the MeToo movement, which did a lot of good things too, but it's tough to be a men and slightly privileged in today's society. And I see that with my son, who's a little older than my daughter. It's like nobody wants him. You know, he's, he's white, straight and, and you know, fairly privileged. And it's hard, you know, it's tough to get into schools. It's, you know, it's tough in the job market. And so I, and regardless of, of race and, and all of that, it's just tough to be a man as well, because so we need to find, we need to find our way right back to one another and to a balance. And I don't think we're there yet. So it's just a lot of these. I think it's hard for both.

[Benoit]

I agree. And that's actually a perfect segue into some of the things you talked about from your second TED talk in 2024. What is relational energy and its role in everyday life? Because I also don't have an answer. Loneliness. The nuances for a male, female dynamic. And it's very, very, very complex to say the least. But I think one of the remedies can be this relational energy you talked about. So what is relational energy and how can we utilize this in our everyday life? Whether you're a male or female.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah. So relational energy is really just the energy that is created in all our social interactions. And there were some researchers who coined this term, really what they coined it for our social work interactions. But it works everywhere else too. And so, and I think that kind of comes back to, and makes full circle with that spiritual dimensional aspect of ourselves too, because it's all about, it's really all about energy. Our relationships, our interactions, how connected we feel with ourselves and with other people. It all comes down to our own energy and relational energy and why we cannot, you know, it. While self connection is crucial to, in order to connect with other people, we are not supposed to live in vacuums. We're not meant to, to, to be isolated from other people. And we thrive and we grow and we evolve when we are in relation with other people. Because even if our relationships are not necessarily easy, a lot of relationships are not even meant to, to be comfortable. Relationships are, a lot of our relationships are meant to, to help us grow. Right. As, as humans. So the relational energy is really crucial. And these researchers, they found that that relational energy is powerful because it sparks a chain of Reactions first. Relational energy can make people feel really good, right? It just. It has this emotional impact on you, makes you feel good. You know, you have that exchange with the barista, you know, who makes your coffee, or someone gives you a compliment. I remember this moment myself when I was. This is years ago when I was working at a bank in Geneva, and my boss. I was quite new at this position, and my boss sends me to this big conference in Moscow, this finance conference. And I remember feeling really insecure, and I didn't see one other woman there. And the. Well, actually, there was one other woman, and that was Madeleine Albright. And I. I couldn't hang out with her, right? I was, you know, she was, you know, way senior, way out of my league. I was this beginner. And so I felt very insecure and self. Self conscious and didn't really know, like, with all these, like, big finance guys from New York. And I didn't really know what I was doing there. And then one morning, I'm in the elevator going down to the hotel lobby when this man enters, and he looks at me and he says, good morning, uni. How are you doing today? And him recognizing me made me. And even knowing my name, and I hardly remembered him. I knew that I'd met him at some event earlier in the week, but I didn't remember his name. But he remembered my name, and he knew who I was. And that gave me such a boost. The rest of the conference, I was on fire. I was talking with everyone. I have this, like, renewed confidence. And I was also finding new investors for our fund. So it was really, you know, a huge deal for me and a huge change in my career. And that is relational energy demonstrated because it made me feel really good, and that made me more productive. It made me, you know, increased cognitive abilities. I was more focused. I was concentrated. I knew what I was doing there. And that turned out to be really profitable for my firm and for me as well. So that's the power of relational energy. And the thing is, we don't have to be married or have a best friend from childhood in order to have relational energy in our life. We can have these exchanges. It just takes a few seconds. We can have these exchanges with, you know, really every single day. Because we are not living in isolation. Most people, we are living in cities. We are living in places where we go to the office. We are, you know, meeting people, even if we don't know them. And we can have short exchanges with people that are meaningful, that are intentional, and that changes someone's day.

[Benoit]

And I love connecting the tangible with the intangible on this show. And I just want to. Of course, most of the audiences are very open to spirituality. Of course, I have psychedelic background as well. When people hear the word energy, they're like, oh, oh, right. And because I think the modern spiritual movement has gone way too far. Right? Yeah. Not everyone's is 4D shamanic beings. We don't need to. We're also human. First very concrete example to drive your message home with this energetic resonance, because it's a resonance of energy, is menstrual cycles. So we all know that menstrual cycles sync. And this has been documented and proved when, you know, women are together with roommates or sisters or close friends. Of course, as you know, menstrual cycles, they do sync together. So. And what is hormones like? Menstrual cycles are hormones and hormones are also hormonal energy. So like, let's really think about if hormones and your menstrual cycles for in two separate bodies can sync by staying together, why wouldn't there be other emotional energies? If hormones sink literally and biologically, why wouldn't there be social energies like you talked about or relational energy? So I just want to really drive your message home where when we are in relation ship with other people. Because humans are social animals, period. It's a fact. Why wouldn't we want to spend more time with each other? And like you said, that seemingly small and I don't know if you had a name tag. Did you have a name tag on you? Is that how he knew your name or did you actually remember your name?

[Uni Turatini]

I actually do believe that at that earlier event I did have a name tag. But we did also briefly talk and I think it just. He just remembered my name. Just some people are good at remembering. That is also something that is really important for that relational energy to remember people's names.

[Benoit]

Our favorite word is our names, right? How to how to make Friends and influence People by Dale Carnegie. He talks about everyone's favorite sounds in their world is their name. So that's why every president, they are very good with names because it's part of the political movements too.

[Uni Turatini]

Right?

[Benoit]

But coming back to this, like, because we are social animals, I really think that the more we are in relationship with other people, like you also get dopamine, like your elevator example, when you got that compliments or when. When you felt seen, literally feel seen, you release dopamine. Dopamine, it's a reward pathways. It's just a molecule you want to do more and more and more of that. So when we do that, it's not just we feel good. We literally produce dopamine in our brains, and we can use that dopamine for productivity, focus, or doing whatever you want to. So there's so many. Like you said, there's so many trickle effects down the road.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah. I also think that. And it might not work every time, but when someone is really present with us and remembers our name or makes us feel seen, heard, and valued in a. In an exchange like this, even if I am in survival mode, which I was most likely in survival mode at that, you know, previously at that conference. Right. All of a sudden I was in the present moment. That brought me out of survival mode and into the present moment as well. That is. Just how powerful is that? Because I really do believe that survival mode is our biggest enemy right now. It's what's holding us back from connecting with ourselves and connecting with other people. And it just creates this huge divide and polarity in our population when we're in this fear. Fear state.

[Benoit]

I agree. I agree. I want to talk about. I know you used to have the three Cs framework. Right. Long time ago. I don't know how that's evolved since, but. Yeah, you do. Okay, so Harvard professor of happiness, his name is Arthur C. Brooks. He talks about three core ingredients of happiness, meaning satisfaction and enjoyment.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah.

[Benoit]

What are your thoughts? Tying that to our connection with ourselves and connection with others.

[Uni Turatini]

Oh, that's really important because I have the three Cs. So my three Cs are connection, confidence, and contribution. And the connection part of it, I split it into two. There's the connection that we have with other people, and then there's the connection that we have with ourselves, and we need both. And really the joy and excitement and happiness part isn't available to us when we are disconnected from ourselves and other people. So the connection part is huge. It's really huge. But I also think that. And. And we know that then the confidence part comes in. Because when we are feeling lonely, as mentioned, you know, in the. At the beginning is really when we're saying, like when I say I'm. I'm feeling really lonely, what I'm really saying is that I. I don't feel like I'm worthy of love and connection. I don't have confidence in myself. I don't trust the world. Right. I. I'm. I'm in this. You know, I'm suspicious. I'm. I'm afraid. I feel like I. I like I'm not worthy of being here, perhaps. And so confidence is, you know, comes in there to build confidence in order to be able also to connect more deeply with ourselves and other people. And when we're disconnected. I just know this from my own experiences and, you know, also with. With all the people that I've spoken with and my clients in the workplace and, you know, and really anyone. People think that only or not everybody thinks this. I used to think that if you didn't feel connected, joy, happiness, all that, you were kind of a loser. You had failed somehow at social connections. But what I've learned, because I work with a lot of leaders, I work with CEOs, I work with lawyers, judges, people that you think that these people, at least they have figured it all out, they have it all together, but it's not true. We all have those moments when we feel disconnected. And that's why so many of these especially very successful people can feel very dissatisfied and very, you know, sort of lack of joy. Joy is not part of their world and their vocabulary. And they pretend because they smile and they, you know, know how to say the right things and to, you know, interact with people in a way that makes other people think that they have joy and excitement and all these wonderful things in their life. But as a coach, when I work with them, often they come to me because they say, uni, I should be feel. I know I should be feeling more joy. I should be feeling happier. I have all the ingredients to feel more joy and happiness in my life, and yet I don't have that and I don't know why. And to me, that is a disconnection. Again, it all comes down to the being disconnected from our own self. And a lot of the times that disconnection comes from being in living in survival mode most of the time.

[Benoit]

And it's very interesting. I've never shared this on the podcast because this is a very recent development for me. And this is why I loved today's ethos about reconnecting with ourselves. Because like I said before, we are all born connected innately, but we get disconnected over time. Because of my personality traits and who I am, I'm always going to be doing podcasts, my clinical work. I will always do what I do. But I've noticed this significant shift in my ambition in the last four months. I got married five months ago. We rescued a cat. So we're cat parents now, recently as well. And because I went through an existential crisis around my wedding time, where I've Achieved a lot of things I wanted to achieve. Who I thought was far away a few years ago. I've achieved that this year, earlier this year, and so on. And I realized even the diminishing return, the fulfillment, the joy, the dopamine from these accolades, as you know, they also diminish over time. So you need more, more, more, more, more to derive the same level of fulfillment. And so I was going through this, I was like, what's my future? What's next? Et cetera, et cetera. And my wife Becky, she asked me, hey, Benoit, when you are truly being radically honest with yourself, and you ask yourself, are you successful in the way you define success by doing the things that you feel called to, and that's fulfilling? I said, yes, 100%. She said, okay, why do you have to go for the next achievements? Maybe it's time for it to get dependence. And this is what I realized. People in their early to mid-30s have children, even for high achievers like us, because it's that diminishing return. What we do like, we will always do it because we love it and we're good at it, but the fulfillment diminishes. That's why we got a cat after the wedding. But I all say that because I'm also in this emotional reconnection chapter right now in my life where I'm also reevaluating what ambition means to me. And I have. And even my wife Becky says this. And a lot of my friends who know me in real life, they're like, well, Benoit, you've gotten less type A if God's in weight. Because I'm very intense, usually because of type A personality. And as you know, that emotion kind of spills over and I feel guilty because Type A works well in productivity, but not well interpersonally, as I'm sure you relate.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah.

[Benoit]

And a lot of people in real life, they're saying that, Benoit, you've gotten a lot more gentle, a lot softer, a lot kinder to other people, more forgiving and gracious. And I think that's also related to me. But on the other side, I feel guilty because I feel like I'm being less ambitious. I feel more content in my day to day, which is an amazing feeling that I talked about. And so I'm also going through this push and pull with my personality, who wants the big dreams, the big visions, not for the sake of accolades, but because it's. It's a calling. And as you know, living by our callings is a burden. It's a heavy Burden to going for the things we really feel called to because it's a lot of hard work. So I struggle with this push, but I also feel very more content than ever in my life. I feel so content and I feel just at peace because I know I'll always be doing what I love, but I feel this less gravitational pull towards ambition. So I'm also in a very interesting journey right now.

[Uni Turatini]

Isn't it interesting how. And that's, that's, it's like connection with oneself and learning to getting to know oneself is in constant evolution. You know, we're constantly changing and I think that's what makes really life also so interesting and rich. Right. And I, you know, I'm going through, you know, similar, you know, evolution and growth right now as well. And although not like, you know, I, I, but I've definitely gone through what you are going through as well. But I think what you're also saying is that, yes, the calling is a burden, but at the same time, it's really, it's, it's very enriching as well. And that's where the, the third c Contribution comes in. Contribution is a basic human need because giving of ourselves makes us feel, feel important. It makes us feel like we matter. It's, it's that, that, oh, I make a difference in someone's life. In, in someone's. And that's why, that's why you do what you do with the podcast, helping so many people. And that's why I write and I, you know, speak and coach people and do trainings and companies and because seeing how that makes a difference in people's life, how they after feel more connected, that something has changed and shifted so that they can continue and just take that ball and keep going with it, that is deeply rewarding. Even though it is really hard as well. Because, as you know, it's not a path that is, you know, we're, we're creating the path as we're walking it. You know, with that, with the topics that we talk about with the, you know, it's just, it's just really hard to, to create what we're. I mean, it's a lot easier to just, if I were to just go and walk and, you know, work at a law firm and be a lawyer or in house or for a law firm, you know, they tell me what to do, they give me the, the file that I should be working on and the, you know, the case, and I just do that. Of course it's hard work, but I don't have to reflect on what I'm doing. You know, I don't have to worry about where, you know, the money is going to come from or, you know, all those things. You know, we have to do this all ourselves. And that's why it feels like a burden, too. But without it, at least my life would not have the same meaning. I know that when I take breaks for too long when I'm not writing, I feel miserable and I'm not a good person to be around, because when I'm. And I'm miserable and. And I know that I should just be. I just said, but in chair. Like my. My writing. My first. My writing coach used to tell me, uni butt in chair and write, no matter how bad it is. And it's true. I always. It's like. It's like the remedy for my frustration and, you know, overcoming myself and my resistance and. And that's how I also reconnect with myself through my calling. And maybe you feel the same way through your calling. I don't know.

[Benoit]

Yeah, I think it's more so about. I think the more reconnected I feel with myself, the less connections I need from externalities. And that's why I feel more content, because I've gotten very comfortable with who I am. And of course, it's a lifelong process, like you said. And I feel like the last 30 minutes became a therapy session for both of us.

[Uni Turatini]

Totally.

[Benoit]

But just to close this out, I do want to share this before I roll out the metaphorical red carpet for you. I really, really love the today's topic connection with ourselves. That's not what I was expecting when I was researching, because that came right before we hopped on recording. But I do tell this to all my clients. Some get it, some don't. But I feel called to share today is. I always ask them, and it's always a trick question. When you're first born into this world, who is the first person you're born with? And the noun matters. And they're like, oh, you're first born with your mother, your father, your grandparents, caregiver. I said, no, no, no. That's the first person you see or you're staying in touch with attachment style. I said, who's the first person you're born with and born to? Some people say doctors. I was like, no, no, no, no. Listen to what I'm saying. And then they say, me, myself. I was like, yes, the first human that you're born with is yourself. Let's flash forward. When you're in your Deathbed. When you're looking at the ceiling on top, hopefully surrounded by people we love and the impact that we share, who's the last person you're dying with this time? They get it. They said us. Ourselves. Exactly. Right. So by that logic, the first person we're born with is ourselves. The last person we're dying with is also ourselves. So by that logic, who is the. What is the most important relationship in our life? Ourselves. Yeah.

[Uni Turatini]

Yes. Yes. Oh, so good, Benoit. And also, just if I can just add to that. Is that. And I found. I found this, is that when I'm good with me, when I've done the work that I need to do on myself in the morning to connect with myself, I'm good with everyone. I don't arrive into a work situation with conflict or with my. With my husband or kids. Right. Because I've done the work. I connected with myself and. And I'm in the present moment and I'm not in survival. So, yes, it's. It's the first and the last and everything in between that's just came to me right now.

[Benoit]

No, it's true. It's. Yes. But without further ado, though, before I roll out the metaphorical red carpet, uni, is there anything else you feel like we haven't touched upon today? You feel called to project onto a massive TED Talk since you just gave your second one recently?

[Uni Turatini]

It was actually my third one, but.

[Benoit]

Third one. Okay.

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah. And. And for sure my best one to date, so I'm. I'm really proud of that one. I think if. If I could, you know, I like to give tools to people, so if I can give something that. And it. It, you know, comes back to the contribution part and also creating relational energy. It's something that I try to live by. And it's the. The acronym hope. Help One person every day. It doesn't have to be a lot. It can be giving someone a compliment. It can be. It's just having that intention that I'm going to be mindful of and pay attention to who might need my assistance or need a kind word or need something that I can give them today. And usually it just takes a few seconds to do it. It can be just sending someone a text message. It can be sharing someone's post on social media. You know, it's really so little, but it can make a huge difference in their life. And when we know that we made a difference in someone's life, it changes our life too, and our day. So, yeah, the three C's really wrapped in one. It's how you connect. It's how you build confidence and trust. It's how you feel that you contribute and make a difference.

[Benoit]

I love the Hope framework, help one person at a time and to really drive this home unique. Let's start with helping ourselves first. Yes, because when we help ourselves, we help others as a byproduct. And research has also shown that act of kindness or altruistic acts also benefit our own well being and also does contribute to happiness. It's also been proven so what a conversation. So without further ado, where can people check you out, your new projects at the horizon and anything in between?

[Uni Turatini]

Yeah so I'm on social media if you I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn all over. I'm also on substack. I write a weekly newsletter there and if you just google my name uni U N N I and then Turatini T U double R E double T I N I you find me. I'm in the I'm the only one in the world with my name so and I'm also writing a new book so please follow me. I also give a lot of free resources for people to help them deactivate survival mode and connect with themselves. So follow me on social media and do reach out because I love to connect with people.

[Benoit]

And Uni, you also have a Wikipedia page. So that's. Yeah, that's my next life milestone creating a Wikipedia page for myself. But seriously Uni, I really appreciate your recent evolutions of connections with ourselves because we cannot connect with others before or until we connect with ourselves or reconnect with ourselves first. But appreciate your energy, appreciate flexibility and I just appreciate the energetic or relational energy you brought in today and the expertise. I'm very much looking forward to your next book and all your future contribution.

[Uni Turatini]

Thank you so much for having me. Benoit. It's always a pleasure speaking with you and to everyone.

[Benoit]

If you have made it to this end. Thank you so much for tuning in. Like we talked about, wouldn't you want to help your friends and other people to reconnect with themselves and others? So if you felt very rejuvenated with your commitment to reconnect with others, I want to ask you to share this episode with one friends. That's how you're going to make our life better, but also help your friends to help them discover more about helpful insights. And as always, I'll include Uni's information and show notes in the link below and I want to, as always, encourage you to choose curiosity and love over fear in the next week's Train of Discover More. Thank you for tuning in, checking out my amazing composition with me today.