Bonus Episode: JFK, Watergate, and More From Seattle

Summary

DISGRACELAND Bonus Episode: JFK, Watergate, and More From Seattle

Release Date: April 3, 2025
Host: Jake Brennan (with Matt Bowden)
Format: Afterparty / Listener Interaction / Music True Crime Commentary

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Episode Overview

This bonus "Afterparty" episode of DISGRACELAND blends true crime-laced music history with listener engagement and timely commentary on news intersecting music, Hollywood, and conspiracy. The hosts (Jake and Matt) reflect on the recent two-part Bob Dylan episode, riffing on its blend of myth, fact, and fiction. Major themes include government/media corruption, the JFK hearings, Watergate conspiracies, Bob Dylan's political contradictions, and the wild, mythic edge of rock and roll. The show pivots into passionate responses to listener questions about grunge, George Michael, and recommendations for future episodes, while offering a heartfelt tribute to the late Val Kilmer. Throughout, the tone is conspiratorial, irreverent, and reverent to the chaos and drama underlying pop culture icons.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Afterparty Setup & Spoiler Warning for Bob Dylan Part 2

Timestamps: 03:33–06:05

• Matt Bowden flags this episode’s unique structure, addressing the “massive news day” (JFK files/Congressional hearings).
• Warns listeners who haven’t finished "Bob Dylan, Part Two" to skip ahead, as spoilers are imminent.
• Notes the rarity of satirical/fictionalized Disgraceland episodes – "We haven't done one of these types of episodes in five years." (06:05).

2. Fact vs. Fiction in the Bob Dylan Episode

Timestamps: 06:06–08:15

• Clarifies which wild events from Dylan Part 2 are true:
  • Dylan's shocking post-JFK remarks and ambiguous stance on Vietnam (TRUE).
  • Dylan’s physical altercation with a reporter (TRUE).
  • Bob staying at the Watergate Hotel (TRUE).
  • FBI file excerpts—one is real, others dramatized.
  • Dylan’s note to INS for John & Yoko and the "55 families" Illuminati-like tale (TRUE, see "Political World of Bob Dylan")—"Look at the book, the Political World of Bob Dylan for that story…". (07:27)
  • Some events (character "Andy" and "Becca") are inventions for story purposes.
• Matt: “That’s the beauty of these satirical episodes. There’s only been three in the entire history of Disgraceland.” (08:15)

3. Watergate & CIA Conspiracies

Timestamps: 08:17–10:06

• Debunks the Watergate hotel prostitution ring—“No actual evidence…so on that one, false.” (08:51)
• Floats the CIA-set-up theory implicating Nixon in Watergate—moves from skeptical to "50/50," given ongoing revelations from the JFK files.
  • “After all the dirty shit detailed in the JFK files …I’d say I’m 50-50 on this Nixon thing.” (09:44)
• Connects these themes back to Bob Dylan’s time at the Watergate and the “55 families” story.

4. Politics, Media, and the Dylan FBI File

Timestamps: 10:06–12:43

• Argues Dylan would agree: “Politics are evil and the media is just as corrupt as our government.” (10:10)

• Cites the real FBI memo—the agency wanted to use media contacts to tar Dylan as “anti-American.”

  • Callout: “We’ve talked about Operation Mockingbird here before. That’s the CIA’s effort to co-opt and control over 600 journalists…” (10:26)

• Applies these themes to contemporary events:

  • Laments CBS and ABC for "mischaracterizing" journalist Jefferson Morley’s testimony at the 2025 JFK congressional hearing—“…the media still does the bidding of their handlers in the CIA and in the FBI. Nothing has changed.” (12:43)

  Quote:

  "Why would CBS and ABC in the year 2025 move so quickly to discredit a man who has done more fact-based research on the JFK assassination…what incentive would they have?" (Matt, 11:24)

5. Upcoming Episodes & James Brown Rewind

Timestamps: 13:08–13:59

• Announces Friday’s rewind of the James Brown episode, and teases a potential Part 2 based on the “James Brown was murdered” theory.
• Next week: Billy Idol episode — "Was Billy Idol the most debauched rock star, or do others deserve the crown?"
• Encourages listeners to weigh in — “617-906-6638. Leave me a voicemail or a text.” (14:01)

6. Listener Voicemails & Texts: Seattle & Grunge

Timestamps: 18:05–22:14

• Grayson (740): Chimes in on grunge “Top 10” albums, loving the Lemonheads, Dinosaur Jr., and Pixies callouts—“Billy Corgan is hitting the road not for Siamese Dream but to play Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness.”
• 270 (Bowling Green/Nashville): Praises Mark Lanegan, especially the album Bubblegum and Gutter Twins collab.
  • Matt: “He was a true badass. Just like those outlaw country guys.” (21:35)
• 765 (Amanda): Thanks for the George Michael episode, reflecting on his sexuality and the emotional depth of his later work.
• 214 (Austin): Shares photos from Seattle’s Central Saloon, paying tribute to early Nirvana/Soundgarden history.

7. More Listener Interaction: Album Lists & Recommendations

Timestamps: 22:14–26:09

• Text from 304 — appreciates Singles Soundtrack in grunge top 10.
• Facebook shout-outs:
  • Scott Simmons: Suggests jazz guitarist Lenny Breau — “Some would say a disgrace.” (26:09)
  • Carl Glenn Fulmer: Proposes a Jimmy Buffett true crime/party episode — "I'm fascinated with Florida history…very outlaw." (27:02)
• Engagement invitation: “617-906-6638 Disgracelandpod Facebook x Instagram”

8. The Hollywoodland Minute & Val Kilmer Tribute

Timestamps: 32:17–39:25

• Hollywoodland Minute: Promotes Jake’s Hollywoodland podcast—true crime in Tinseltown; upcoming David Lynch/Twin Peaks episode.
• Discusses Oliver Stone’s recent JFK hearing testimony, his work on the films JFK and The Doors.
• Val Kilmer Tribute:
  • Announces Kilmer’s passing—“Just an incredible actor, a great leading man…” (35:29)
  • Shares anecdotes, including Jennifer Tilly’s story of Kilmer’s legendary Doors audition:

    Jennifer Tilly: "A 60s convertible came screeching up, blaring Doors music…a guy jumped out…wild hair, barefoot, shirtless…from that minute on, nobody else stood a chance.” (38:29)

  • Jake: “For a huge part of my late teen years, in my early adulthood, I couldn’t even think of Jim Morrison without thinking of Val Kilmer. That’s how good Val Kilmer is in that role.” (39:06)

9. Reviews and Listener Shout-Outs

Timestamps: 39:30–44:13

• Reads reviews from Apple Podcasts and Spotify — positive and negative, in usual bantering style.
• Engages with “Cindy Hu” (one-star): “I want to help you, Cindy Hu…I want to help you figure this out because the stories are finished, OK?” (41:24)
• Rewards listeners for reviews with promise of merch: “If I pick your review…you’ll get some merch…” (39:53)
• Reads a fan email from Johnny Vinyl, listing top grunge albums and championing Miles Davis’ “voice” on trumpet.

10. Exclusive Members’ Section Preview & Archive Episode Recommendations

Timestamps: 44:13–49:10

• Plug for all-access membership — exclusive episodes (recent Slipknot, upcoming David Crosby), ad-free format, and extra Afterparty content.
• Archive episode suggestions:
  • "Grateful Dead’s Pigpen" — Dead origin story.
  • "Pantera" — crime/metal drama.
  • "Tommy James" — mob/rock crossover.
  • "Sex Pistols" — two episodes tie into Billy Idol and punk history.
• “Check the Show Notes…” for easy archive navigation. (49:00)

11. Recap and Wrap-up

Timestamps: 49:09–end

• Main takeaways:
  1. Hollywoodland podcast is live—subscribe!
  2. Bob Dylan Part 2 is the latest Disgraceland deep dive.
  3. Rewind episode on James Brown drops tomorrow.
  4. Merch winners—get in touch!
  5. Closing sentiment: “No one cares about preserving the true spirit of rock and roll more than you do. And, well, that’s a disgrace.”
• Amusingly closes by reading June 17, 1972’s phone book/Top 40, referencing the Watergate break-in—“Why Watergate and Bob Dylan? Well, you have to listen to part two of the Bob Dylan Story. Find out.” (49:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Nearly all of those outrageous facts are true. Bob Dylan did indeed say that crazy shit about Lee Harvey Oswald…”
  — Matt Bowden (06:28)
• “The media still does the bidding of their handlers in the CIA and in the FBI. Nothing has changed. Nothing.”
  — Matt Bowden (12:43)
• “For a huge part of my late teen years…I couldn’t even think of Jim Morrison without thinking of Val Kilmer. That’s how good Val Kilmer is in that role.”
  — Matt Bowden (39:06)
• Jennifer Tilly’s legendary Doors audition story:

  “All of a sudden, a 60s convertible came screeching up, blaring Doors music…He had wild hair, and he was barefoot, shirtless, and wearing nothing but a pair of tight leather…Well, of course, it was Val Kilmer. And from that minute on, nobody else stood a chance. Rest in peace, King.” (38:29)

• “I gotta tell you, I gotta pay people. I gotta pay myself…I gotta produce this awesome content. It is not. It’s not free to do.”
  — Matt Bowden, on why ads are necessary, and a plug for $5/month ad-free membership (45:33)

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Listener Interactivity

• Voicemails/Text Line: 617-906-6638
• Social: @disgracelandpod on Facebook, Instagram, and X
• Email: disgracelandpodmail.com

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Flow & Tone

• Irreverent, rapid-fire, deeply opinionated
• Heavy on music nerdery, pop culture tangents, and true crime skepticism
• Direct call-outs to “discos” (Disgraceland listeners) and high listener responsiveness
• Honors the untamed mythos of rock and pop, while remaining skeptical of official narratives

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Conclusion

This Afterparty episode brings together history, conspiracy, fan obsession, and the very real drama of music legends and the shadowy forces surrounding them. With tributes (Val Kilmer), hot takes on current news (JFK files, CIA conspiracies), plenty of listener interaction, and plugs for deep archive dives, it’s a classic installment for listeners who love their music history raw, real, and conspiratorially entertaining.

Transcript

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[Jake Brennan]

hey discos, need a little more Disgrace

[Matt Bowden]

Land in your life?

[Jake Brennan]

Just a touch to get you through. Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast welcome to Disgraceland the afterparty.

[Matt Bowden]

Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode. A little thing we like to call the after party. This is the show after the show, the party after the party. The bridge to get you from one full episode of Disgraceland to the other, the backyard. To dig into the dirt on this bonus episode, we are talking about this week's full episode subject, Bob Dylan. We also get into Oliver Stone and Val Kilmer's Jim Morrison for a wee bit as well as a bit of a deeper dive into our Hollywoodland spin off series. And we get into your voicemails, text, DMs, emails, and as always, a whole lot of Rosie. All right, discos, let's get into it. All right, this week's afterparty is going to be a little bit different. We had a massive news day yesterday, which as I write this, when I say yesterday, I mean Tuesday. A ton of music news and a ton of news news. I know a lot of you watched the Congressional hearing with Oliver Stone and Jefferson Morley on the JFK Files and I know a lot of you are catching up and haven't yet finished this week's full episode of Disgraceland. Our part two episode on Bob Dylan which directly relates to those JFK hearings on Capitol Hill this week. So if any of you have not heard part two, have not yet heard Bob Dylan Part two, not part one, Part two of our Bob Dylan story. I'm gonna give you this moment here to fast forward this here after party bonus episode about 10 minutes or so. Go past the first ad break and just start listening from that point on. Or past the first musical interlude if you're ad free because there will be spoilers and I'm going to get into spoilers right now, okay? The spoilers are coming in the next few seconds. So again, if you haven't yet heard part two of the Bob Dylan episode, now is your chance to fast forward past the spoilers, okay? So for the rest of you who heard this episode, thank you for taking

[Jake Brennan]

this ride with us.

[Matt Bowden]

Thanks for the texts, thanks for the voicemails, thanks for the comments on Social. If you commented and then didn't see your comment or saw your comment get deleted. I deleted them because I'm trying to

[Jake Brennan]

preserve the gag here for the rest of the listeners.

[Matt Bowden]

We haven't done one of these types of episodes in five years, okay? 2020 was the last one and I got you good that time, and I got you in 2019 as well. But I needed to take a couple years off because I needed to lull you guys into an unsuspecting content trance before I could come back at you

[Jake Brennan]

with an episode like this.

[Matt Bowden]

Part two, Bob Dylan episode. Okay? On this episode, it's different than the last two that we did. The one with Jim and the one with John. This one had far less historical fiction, like almost none, and way more historical fact, which is the main ingredient, really,

[Jake Brennan]

when trying to make these episodes work.

[Matt Bowden]

In this Dylan episode, Part two, like I said at the end of it, nearly everything is true. Nearly all of those outrageous facts are true. Bob Dylan did indeed say that crazy shit about Lee Harvey Oswald basically supporting who was thought to be JFK's killer. Two weeks after JFK was murdered, Dylan gave the impression, he indeed gave the impression that he was for the Vietnam War. In an interview with Sing out magazine in the. I believe that was the late 60s, early 70s, and Dylan did beat the piss out of that reporter, as depicted in our episode. Dylan did stay at the Watergate Hotel. Dylan's FBI file, or a page from his file anyway, was read verbatim in my episode. That's from the actual Dylan FBI file and that was the first file I read. The other two that I read in

[Jake Brennan]

the episode, I made those up for the purposes of the story.

[Matt Bowden]

Dylan wrote that note to the INS for John and Yoko. That's true.

[Jake Brennan]

You can look up the note, the

[Matt Bowden]

55 families bit, that was true as well. Again, look at the book the Political World of Bob Dylan for that story with the mysterious Illuminati like aristocrat from the 55 families who ended up playing

[Jake Brennan]

Bob and Bill Graham.

[Matt Bowden]

Even the bit about me working for Carl Bernstein and how my boss chose to use me to thwart Carl's stupidity. All true. All true. Okay, what wasn't true? Now that's a little bit different. Not as much. Not as much on the not true vine. But Andy, the answer was an invention. I made that up to help set up the part where Bob unknowingly becomes the ruse that Andy exploits to get into Becca's office. Becca was made up as well. Aside from that, there's not much that I made up. And that's the beauty of these satirical episodes. And again, there's only been three in

[Jake Brennan]

the entire history of Disgraceland.

[Matt Bowden]

But as for some historical fiction here, okay, I can't say if the following

[Jake Brennan]

two supposed conspiracy theories are true or not.

[Matt Bowden]

But they haven't been proven false.

[Jake Brennan]

They haven't proven true either. One way or another, they haven't been proven.

[Matt Bowden]

But the Watergate prostitution ring is a real theory. It was a real conspiracy peddled by G. Gordon Liddy, and it was litigated in court in the early 1980s, I believe. And as far as I can tell, there's no actual evidence that supports the idea that there was in fact a prostitution ring run out of the Watergate

[Jake Brennan]

Hotel in the early 1970s.

[Matt Bowden]

So on that one, false. Now, the second so called conspiracy theory, the idea that Richard Nixon did not orchestrate Watergate, but was instead set up by the CIA to make it look like he orchestrated Watergate, or rather, set up by the CIA to orchestrate Watergate so that the CIA would then have a way to peacefully dispose of him. When I first heard this theory a year ago, I gave it no credence. But now, seriously, after all the dirty shit detailed in the JFK files about the CIA and about all the lies they've been caught in in the last few weeks, and all the ways in which CIA members perjured themselves relative to their testimony on the JFK assassination, I'd say that I'm 5050 on this Nixon thing. And whether or not he was set up by the CIA on this theory, I mean, there's tape, for God's sakes. I played you the tape in the episode.

[Jake Brennan]

That's real.

[Matt Bowden]

Now, whether or not the theory is real, I'm not saying one way or another. All I'm saying is that it's not entirely unlikely given all we know. But it all goes back to Watergate, the place, not the scandal. It was that information about Bob Dylan staying at the Watergate Hotel that got me thinking about this entire idea. That and the 55 families thing that

[Jake Brennan]

I read in that book about Bob's politics.

[Matt Bowden]

The larger Point I was trying to

[Jake Brennan]

make in this episode, and a point

[Matt Bowden]

that I think Bob Dylan would support, is that politics are evil and the media is just as corrupt as our government. In that first FBI memo on Bob

[Jake Brennan]

Dylan that I read to you in

[Matt Bowden]

the episode, the Special Agent in Charge.

[Jake Brennan]

And again, this is a real memo.

[Matt Bowden]

The Special Agent in Charge recommends that the Bureau call upon its contacts and media to get the word out on Dylan to basically frame Bob Dylan as anti American. We've talked about Operation Mockingbird here before. That's the CIA's effort to co opt and control over 600 journalists at major news outlets in the 1960s and 70s. Nothing has changed.

[Jake Brennan]

Nothing.

[Matt Bowden]

Just this morning. Okay, I'm putting this episode together on Wednesday, April 2nd. Just this morning, in the wake of Tuesday, April 1st. JFK files congressional hearing. The Congressional hearing on the JFK assassination that was held on Capitol Hill just this morning. CBS and ABC News are not only miscategorizing Jefferson Morley's testimony on Capitol Hill relative to the JFK files, they're outright lying about his past. And he's calling for an immediate retraction, as he should be.

[Jake Brennan]

And I hope he even sues them.

[Matt Bowden]

Now, why would CBS and ABC in the year 2025 move so quickly to discredit a man who has done more fact based research on the JFK assassination,

[Jake Brennan]

Jefferson Morley, than any other living journalist.

[Matt Bowden]

A man who has never once uttered a word of conspiracy. A man who, if you follow him, it's obvious that his statements, his writing, his opinions are entirely fact based. What incentive would CBS or ABC have

[Jake Brennan]

in discrediting this man?

[Matt Bowden]

Well, I'll tell you what that incentive is. It's because he came out yesterday in public, on record on Capitol Hill, at the risk of perjuring himself, and said what we have all known to be

[Jake Brennan]

true for decades, that the evidence is

[Matt Bowden]

in no way supports the so called fact that Lee Harvey Oswald killed jfk. The CIA cannot have this out there because the truth is very dark. If Oswald didn't do it, who did? Okay, I have thoughts on that and I think these files are going to bear them out. We're going to talk about that more in the coming weeks here and there. Not going to make a big deal out of it. It's going to take a while for all this to get pieced together. But again, why would ABC and CBS come out so quickly to try to discredit this man? It's because the media still does the bidding of their handlers in the CIA

[Jake Brennan]

and in the FBI. Nothing has changed. Nothing.

[Matt Bowden]

All right. Anyway, I hope you dug this episode and I hope you're not too pissed at me for taking you on this hour plus ride. This is the longest episode of Disgraceland I believe that we've ever done. Matt Bowden is still pissed off at me for making him mix it, though. I don't blame him. It was long, but Matt boy killed it because the sound design came out great.

[Jake Brennan]

Anyway, Matt, no more hour long episodes, I promise.

[Matt Bowden]

All right. Coming up on Friday, we are revisiting another giant from music history, the hardest working man in show business, James Brown. Ladies and gentlemen, James Brown in our rewind slot on Friday. That's tomorrow. I've got a James Brown Part 2 that I'm thinking about based on this theory that he was murdered. Haven't done a lot of research on it, but just top line. It's pretty interesting and there's a lot there, but that's not for a while, if at all. Then next week on we have a new episode on Billy Idol and holy debauchery, Batman. This one's gonna leave a mark. When you're listening to this episode and wading through all the sex, drugs and rock and roll, be thinking about Billy Idol and his debauchery and thinking about which rock star was the most debaucherous. Was it Billy Idol, as we're going to explain, or was it someone else? Which artist?

[Jake Brennan]

Stories of excess are so bad, so

[Matt Bowden]

gross, so over the top that they

[Jake Brennan]

deserve the crown over Billy Idol?

[Matt Bowden]

That's going to be the question of the week next week. 617-906-6638. Leave me a voicemail or a text. I'm going to be back in a flash with your voicemails and texts and

[Jake Brennan]

DMS on this week's question of the week.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Albertsons/Safeway Promo Announcer]

Stack up those rewards to save even more.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Enjoy savings on top of savings.

[Albertsons/Safeway Promo Announcer]

When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

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Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures we all have different styles.

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Poshmark has millions of new and pre lived pieces.

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[Matt Bowden]

All right, we are back. And just a quick reminder to make sure you Apple podcast listeners have auto downloads turned on so you're not missing any episodes. All right, 617-906-6638. You know where I'm at? I'm in the phone booth. It's the one across the hall. I'm hanging on the telephone if you want to send me a voicemail or a text. I like that, that hanging on a telephone bit. Anyway, I'm going to leave the Dylan voicemails and the Dylan texts to next

[Jake Brennan]

week as there are a bunch of

[Matt Bowden]

you who still haven't heard this episode. And I'd like to have a complete conversation, a complete discussion, if you will, on this story with as many of you as possible. But have no fear because a ton of you hit me up. To continue our conversation from last week on grunge, on Seattle, on Alice in Chains, et cetera, let's Hear from the 74 0.

[Listener Caller]

Hey Jake, just listen to your grunge top 10. Really glad to hear Bad Motor Finger at number one. Oh, I should have should have mentioned I'm Grayson in the 740. Also pretty pumped to hear you talking about dinosaur junior lemonhead, pixies. Definitely three of my favorite bands ever. And I agree none of them should really fall into grunge. Maybe early Lemon Head, Dinosaur Jr. Yeah, that was just too early. I mean, if we're talking about late 80s, early 90s as the start of grunge, they're just a little early for that. Also, don't mind having a couple Nirvanas and a couple Sound Gardens in that top 10 singles. Like you said, just absolutely killer album. Even the bad Les Zeppelin cover, but phenomenal Smashing Pumpkins song on there Drown Birth Ritual Sound Garden. Amazing. Probably got a lot more to say, but I'll leave it at that. Man, love the episode.

[Matt Bowden]

Peace Grayson. We have very similar tastes and appreciate I appreciate the backup on my Lemonheads, Dinosaur and Pixies. Take Grayson. Not sure if you saw, but Billy Corgan is hitting the road not in support of Siamese Dream, but to Play melancholy in the infinite sadness Wondering what you think about all that. Hit me back. Let me know. Grayson, let's. Matt, let's check out the two seven zero.

[Listener Caller]

Hey, Jake.

[Listener Caller 2]

I left a message earlier about Mark Lanigan. Two seven zero. I'M new to this calling thing. I've listened to calling you, that is listen to your show for years now. Every episode, I promise. 270 is Bowling Green, Kentucky. I actually live in Nashville. So sharing information because you share so much with me and us. Mark Lanigan. My recommendation is listen to Bubblegum the album in its entirety. You can't go wrong with his catalog at all. Listen to that. He was on one then. Great album, Loose concept album. And then his work as the Gutter Twins with Greg Dooley. But once again, you can't go wrong. Listen or read. I would say listen because he narrates the book. Sing Backwards and Weep book came out a few years ago, a couple years ironically, before his untimely death. Once again, Mark Lanigan. For me, it's not even close. True badass. Just like those outlaw country guys. He was a true badass. Thank you, man. Thank you so much for your content and your show. I love it.

[Listener Caller]

See you.

[Matt Bowden]

All right. I appreciate the Landigan recommendations. And this is not the first time Greg Dooley has come up. And I haven't commented on Greg Dooley. Dooley, he's incredible. He's incredible. Gentleman by Afghan Wigs. If you guys don't know that record,

[Jake Brennan]

I'm gonna listen to that today. If you don't know that record, oh, man, you're in for it. Put that on today. It's so damn good.

[Matt Bowden]

Dooley's collaboration with Lanigan is another reason

[Jake Brennan]

that I should get into the Mark lanigan story.

[Matt Bowden]

And yes, 270-total outlaw. I wonder if Bob Dylan would agree. I think he would. That outlaw spirit is the theme of our recent episode on Bob Dylan. And I see a correlation between Bob and Lanegan.

[Jake Brennan]

I wonder if you do.

[Matt Bowden]

All right, listen. In last week's after party, we went through a list from Goldmine magazine, the top 10 grunge albums of all time. And I gave my thoughts on that list and then I provided my own list. And one I think it was in the number 10 spot was the single soundtrack, which I anticipated would get me some shit from you guys. We got this text here from the 304. 304 writes in. Hey, thank you for shouting out the single soundtrack. I wouldn't make it my number one, but it is a good one. But you saying that Makes me feel better about claiming some of my more questionable choices. Well, 304, I want those questionable choices. You can't leave me hanging like that. Come on, hit me back. And I'm happy to hear that you agree with my singles take. I didn't have him number one, by the way. I had him number 10. Okay, 765 writes in hey Jake, it's Amanda from the 765- and I just wanted to thank you for the George Michael episode. I love George Michael, and not in a fangirl type of way. I was convinced he was gay long before he came out. Well, we all were, and it didn't matter at all to me. His music spoke to me. I didn't really care for the Wham stuff. It was much more. I was much more impressed by his later stuff, his deeper stuff. The amount of emotion he conjured with that incredible voice gave me chills every time. I chose him to do a presentation on from my world music class in college, and I learned something new from this episode. Also, I didn't realize he had a GHB addiction. I knew he did drugs, but I thought he had gotten clean and it really broke my heart when he died. I mourned the loss of the amazing music yet to come, and I was also hoping he would meet someone else

[Jake Brennan]

who would make him as happy as Anselmo did.

[Matt Bowden]

Another quick note on the grunge topic. I've always been a fan of songs rather than albums. A lot of times I won't even know who performs them, but I know I love man in the Box and Spoon Man. I grew up with radio and if it wasn't on the radio, I probably haven't heard it. Thanks again for doing such a great job. I've listened to all of the podcasts you've done now. Thank you so much. 765. For those of you who don't know, we got a George Michael episode couple episodes back in the feed. As you can hear from the 765, it's a banger. Check that out. 765, I appreciate you calling in with your thoughts on George Michael. Texting in, I should say. And on man in the Box and Spoon Man. I think both those songs are completely

[Jake Brennan]

emblematic of the grunge scene in the early 90s.

[Matt Bowden]

You couldn't escape those songs.

[Jake Brennan]

I believe man in the Box might have been 89 or 90. Not sure I should know though.

[Matt Bowden]

214 text in hey Jake, this is Austin from the 214.

[Jake Brennan]

I've been a fan from the get

[Matt Bowden]

go and finally caught up on Disgraceland. Even asking about our favorite Seattle bands. Earlier this month I was in Seattle for a ski trip and paid tribute to Kurt Cobain as I was able to check out the first venue where Nirvana played at Central Saloon. It's pretty cool seeing some history attached to some visual imagery. And here we have 21 4. Austin sent in some amazing photos from what looks to be the Central Saloon. Looks like a small little place. And they got some great ephemera on Nirvana and Soundgarden and I'm sure a whole bunch of other bands played there. I may have even been at the Central Saloon. I've been to a lot of clubs in Seattle.

[Jake Brennan]

Long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago.

[Matt Bowden]

Toured up there with the figs back in the early aughts. And this place looks familiar.

[Jake Brennan]

214 looks very familiar.

[Matt Bowden]

Maybe I was there. Maybe I was. Maybe I didn't know the history when I was there. That would have been a shame. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Appreciate you guys. 617-906-6638. You want to hang on the telephone with me? Voicemail and. Or text. All right, you guys want to hit me up @gracelandpod on Facebook, on Instagram, on x? Have at it. Once again, I'll get into all the Dylan stuff in next week's afterparty as

[Jake Brennan]

more people have had a chance to

[Matt Bowden]

listen to that episode. I'm recording this here after party a day after Dylan Part two is released. Okay. Over on Facebook. Gracelandpod. Scott Simmons writes in Lenny Bro Lenny Breaux B R E A U Scott

[Jake Brennan]

Simmons says jazz guitarist.

[Matt Bowden]

Ask Pat Matheny or Tommy Emanuel about him and they'll have something to say. One of the greatest tragedies in music. I gotta say it.

[Jake Brennan]

Some would say a disgrace.

[Matt Bowden]

It's not often I get a recommendation from you guys and I have no idea who the hell you're talking about. And I've never heard of this musician. Matt, maybe you have. I. I just don't.

[Jake Brennan]

I've never heard of this guy.

[Matt Bowden]

And now I'm.

[Jake Brennan]

I'm super intrigued.

[Matt Bowden]

I'm gonna check this out. Thank you, Scott. Appreciate it. Carl. Glenn Fulmer writes in hey, have you ever considered doing an episode about the time that the Jamaican military tried to shoot down Jimmy Buffett's flying boat as he was trying to land? It's ironic that he was friends with drug smugglers when he lived in Key West. He was flying a plane that a lot of smugglers like to use. And it seems to me.

[Jake Brennan]

Seems to me Joe Walsh.

[Matt Bowden]

Seems to me you can have a lot of fun with that.

[Jake Brennan]

You can talk about this history of drug use in the way he used to party. I love this idea, Carl.

[Matt Bowden]

I really, truly do. And I'm kind of fascinated with Florida

[Jake Brennan]

history at the moment.

[Matt Bowden]

Very outlaw. I'm also kind of fascinated with the

[Jake Brennan]

Keys, which is part of Florida, but it's really not.

[Matt Bowden]

I mean, officially it is, but it's a whole other fucking world. And I am not a Jimmy Buffett fan, but I know people who love the dude. Love, love, love him and his history sounds pretty amazing. This is not the first message I've

[Jake Brennan]

received on doing a possible Jimmy Buffett episode. I know the punk rockers in the audience are rolling their eyes right now,

[Matt Bowden]

but hey, come on man. Come on, we did Gigi Allen for God's sakes.

[Jake Brennan]

We can throw the parrot heads a bone here.

[Matt Bowden]

617-906-6638 Disgracelandpod Facebook x Instagram Nearly all the messages on Instagram are relative to Bob Dylan Part 2. You guys are the best. Thank you for playing along. I appreciate you. I'll get into a bunch of these next week. YouTube vet Helen over on X his Graceland pod. Guys, you want to hit me up on the socials? We're going to take a quick break. I'll be back in a flash with the Hollywoodland minute as well as some emails and reviews.

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you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public

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Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures let's

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[Matt Bowden]

Okay, we are back and you know what time it is. It's time for the Hollywoodland Minute, brought to you by the Hollywoodland Podcast. This is the newest segment of the After Party. You don't know what the Hollywoodland Podcast is? Well, the Hollywoodland Podcast is hosted by yours truly, where every week I tell you a story from the Annex of Hollywood and True Crime. And right now there are over 40 episodes waiting for you to binge. Episodes on James Dean, Jane Fonda, Dennis Hopper, and most recently, an episode on John Waters.

[Jake Brennan]

Here's a clip. It was early on the morning of November 3, 1968.

[Matt Bowden]

Everything was quiet except the sound of

[Jake Brennan]

a church bell, which told softly in the distance, calling them morally upright to Sunday morning services on the campus of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. Few students heeded the call. Most were still in bed, sleeping off their Saturday nights. The coast was completely clear as a young man in a bathrobe stepped out

[Matt Bowden]

of the woods and up to the side of the road that wound its

[Jake Brennan]

way through the campus. 30 yards up the road, John Waters stood behind a camera. He looked through the viewfinder and adjusted the camera lens one final time. John knew they would have to be quick. They'd likely only get one chance at this shot before they would have to make a run for it.

[Matt Bowden]

All right, guys, make sure you're subscribed to Hollywoodland on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Next week we have an episode coming your way on the recently departed David lynch and the real life grisly murder that inspired him to create Twin Peaks, and you are not going to want to miss this, okay? Especially if you're a David lynch fan. Lynch, of course, made great films in

[Jake Brennan]

addition to Twin Peaks.

[Matt Bowden]

Mulholland Drive, Eraserhead, Lost Highway Patricia Arquette Damn, why are you gonna be so hot in Lost Highway? Patricia Arquette Anyway, David lynch in Hollywoodland next week. Make sure you're subscribed to Hollywoodland. In Hollywood News, Oliver Stone, relative to what we've been talking about here, was on Capitol Hill yesterday as part of the group of folks who were testifying to the facts behind the JFK assassination. Now, Oliver Stone, in addition to making the great film jfk, which tipped off a lot of this sort of seeking

[Jake Brennan]

of truth around this matter.

[Matt Bowden]

Prior to that, Oliver Stone, I believe

[Jake Brennan]

it was prior to that. Which came first, the Doors or jfk? I could look it up, but I'm not going to. I'm trying to stay focused.

[Matt Bowden]

Anyways, they're back to back, I believe, and they're both fucking great.

[Jake Brennan]

The Doors is great.

[Matt Bowden]

I've had my problem with the Doors in the past, but, you know, it's kind of. I mean, there's a lot about it that's sensational, but I don't care. I love that there was a lot about Jim Morrison that was sensational. And I think it's. I think it's a great music biopic. And again, I've been up and down

[Jake Brennan]

with this film over the years, but

[Matt Bowden]

I think where I'm landing with it, where I'm ending with it, is I love it. And of course, this brings us to

[Jake Brennan]

the very sad news that Val Kilmer has passed away. This was announced when I woke up this morning. I heard it.

[Matt Bowden]

And of course, Val Kilmer, just.

[Jake Brennan]

Just an incredible actor, a great leading

[Matt Bowden]

man who probably in a previous generation

[Jake Brennan]

of Hollywood would have had a much. A much bigger, more impactful career. Not that he didn't have a big impactful career. He most certainly did.

[Matt Bowden]

But I feel like in the last few decades of his career, Val veered somewhat away from the leading man path. And he did a lot in support of other filmmakers, other actors, and, you know, one of my favorite Val Kilmer roles, He's not the leading man.

[Jake Brennan]

It's In Heat. It's his character in Heat, who I think is just.

[Matt Bowden]

I think that character is incredible. I think he plays it incredibly.

[Jake Brennan]

And it's in support of Al Pacino and really in support of Robert De Niro more than anything else. And he just fucking kills it. I was reading this morning, again, relative to what we're talking about here about Val Kilmer's relationship with Bob Dylan. And

[Matt Bowden]

there's this great story that Val Kilmer tweeted out. And of course, Kilmer did that movie with Bob Dylan.

[Jake Brennan]

But this story, he depicts this before he does Bob's movie, which is called what was Bob's masked and anonymous. I think that's what it was called prior to that.

[Matt Bowden]

Kilmer's in New York City, and somehow Bob Dylan gets in touch with him and wants to come over to his hotel and meet with him. And I think they're friends by this point, but they haven't quite worked with each other, but they don't know each other that well. And of course, Dylan comes over and he's all mysterious Dylan. And he asks Kilmer to start reciting dialogue from his character's role in Tombstone. And Kilmer says to him, okay, sing

[Jake Brennan]

me Blowing in the Wind.

[Matt Bowden]

And Bob didn't like that at all, apparently. But Kilmoret then goes on to create,

[Jake Brennan]

I guess, like a spoof version of his Tombstone quotes set to the lyrics of one of Dylan's songs. I think it was, It's All Right, Mom Only Bleeding. And he sent it to Dylan and they. Dylan dug it. And of course they become friends. And Val does that role for Bob later, which I just loved.

[Matt Bowden]

I just loved.

[Jake Brennan]

Also this morning on Val Kilmer. I want to give Val Kilmer a minute here. I saw this tweet from Jennifer Tilly regarding. Regarding Kilmer and how he got his

[Matt Bowden]

role in Oliver Stone's the Doors. So Jennifer Tilly writes on X. A long time ago, I was auditioning

[Jake Brennan]

for the movie the Doors.

[Matt Bowden]

It was kind of a cattle call. And they paired together, potential gyms with potential Pamelas, and they were running behind. So we were spilling out of the casting office and sitting on the porch,

[Jake Brennan]

in the lawn, in the driveway.

[Matt Bowden]

All of a sudden, a 60s convertible came screeching up, blaring Doors music at top volume. And a guy jumped out and strode inside. He had wild hair, and he was barefoot, shirtless, and wearing nothing but a pair of tight leather.

[Jake Brennan]

We all looked at each other like, who is this guy? And we were more than a little shook by the sheer audacity of his entrance. Well, of course it was Val Kilmer. And from that minute on, nobody else stood a chance. Rest in peace, King.

[Matt Bowden]

I love that. And I love.

[Jake Brennan]

I love how seriously Val Kilmer took getting that role, because nobody could have played that role as well as Val Kilmer did. He fucking destroyed. He killed it. Killed it.

[Matt Bowden]

For a huge part of my.

[Jake Brennan]

My late teen years, in my early

[Matt Bowden]

adulthood, I couldn't even think of Jim

[Jake Brennan]

Morrison without thinking of Val Kilmer. That's how good Val Kilmer is in that role.

[Matt Bowden]

And Val Kilmer was, of course, great

[Jake Brennan]

in a ton of different roles.

[Matt Bowden]

And I'll Be looking for some of

[Jake Brennan]

his films tonight and this week and this weekend, as I know you guys will as well. Maybe we'll even do a Doors Val Kilmer episode of Hollywoodland at some point.

[Matt Bowden]

Rest in peace, Val Kilmer. And thank you, Oliver Stone, for all

[Jake Brennan]

the great work you've done over the years.

[Matt Bowden]

All right, it's that time of the show where we get into your reviews of Disgraceland. Of Hollywoodland. Maybe. Maybe I'll do some Hollywoodland ones here. I'm not sure you guys know the drill. Reviews help with discovery of the show. They feed the algorithm. Your activity feeds the algo. All right, we need the reviews to keep this show growing. You guys read a review and I, you know, if I pick your review and I read it here and you hear it and you get in touch

[Jake Brennan]

with me, then we'll get some merch out to you.

[Matt Bowden]

And I know we're a little overdue here to get some merch out. It's been about a month since the last mailing. We'll get into that this week, next week. If you haven't heard from me. Haven't heard back from me. Have no fear, I shall get in touch. This review comes from Pat O. On Spotify, saying, hey, digging your reference to Goodfellas at the intro. I've been listening to your podcast for quite a few years now. Keep up the good work.

[Jake Brennan]

You got it.

[Matt Bowden]

And that Snoop episode was our last rewind episode. That episode went fricking gangbusters in the archive. A lot of people listened to it. Which proves my theory that new listeners have no idea about some of the

[Jake Brennan]

episodes we've covered in the past. Thus the rewind episodes on Friday. And they're perfect for relistening.

[Matt Bowden]

So get in there.

[Jake Brennan]

Got James Brown coming your way tomorrow in the rewind slot. Get into that archive, guys. You're not going to be disappointed, I promise you.

[Matt Bowden]

Over on Apple Podcasts, Cindy Hu writes in. Really? Question mark, exclamation point. One star. One out of five stars. I would turn that around.

[Jake Brennan]

Cindy who?

[Matt Bowden]

And to you say, really? One star? Are you fucking kidding me? Cindy goes on to say, none of

[Jake Brennan]

the stories are finished, and she leaves a mean face emoji.

[Matt Bowden]

Cindy.

[Jake Brennan]

Cindy, thank you for calling tech support. I appreciate it.

[Matt Bowden]

I'm going to encourage you to restart your app. Just close the Apple podcast app and restart it, because I don't know what the fuck is going on, but all of our stories are finished, Cindy.

[Jake Brennan]

We take great pride in finishing our stories. And not only finishing them, Cindy.

[Matt Bowden]

Finishing them with the classic storytelling trope of finishing with a surprising but inevitable end, as Aristotle taught us via David Mamet. Cindy, we finish our episodes. I don't know what you're getting at, but Cindy, I want to help. So if by chance, Cindy Hu, you are listening to this episode, please reach back out. Get in touch Disgracelandpod on the socials disgracelandpodmail.com on email 617-906-6638 voicemail and text I want to help you Cindy who I want to help you figure this out because the stories are finished, okay?

[Jake Brennan]

And I'll even give you some merch, Cindy.

[Matt Bowden]

All right.

[Jake Brennan]

Free of charge.

[Matt Bowden]

Pam Drum on Apple Podcasts. Great voice that holds my attention and you could keep going on forever. Keep it up Pam Drum. You got it Pam Drum. Get in touch Pam Drum. You'll get yourself some free merch. All right. Disgraceandpodmail.com on the email I want to read this email from Johnny Vinyl who's been a big part of the show lately. Johnny, appreciate you. Johnny is a huge huge Seattle music fan, huge grunge fan, huge just fan

[Jake Brennan]

of classic rock and he just has

[Matt Bowden]

good taste and I followed his account on Instagram for a while and I like when he writes me because he's usually got something good to say and he emails in. He called too. But I'm gonna read the email here because it's, it's done really well. He writes in hey Jake, after listening to around 100 podcasts and after parties, now I'm inspired to share my thoughts. First of all Johnny, what the fuck? We've got over 225 full episodes of Disgrace so come on man, get in here dude. Anyways Johnny, go on. I'm inspired to share my thoughts, opinions,

[Jake Brennan]

ideas with you to either your pleasure or boredom.

[Matt Bowden]

This is a message of me firing off various topics that will come off as insane one sided banter or thoughtful and inspiring topics worth discussion. Johnny goes on. The reason I'm reading this email Johnny goes on to give us his top 10 list of so called grunge albums. In the 10 spot like me, Johnny

[Jake Brennan]

has singles number 9 Siamese Dream number

[Matt Bowden]

8 Dirt, that's Allison Chains number 7 Super Unknown 6 Super Fuzz Big Muff 5 Bleach 4 Bad Motor Finger 3102 Facelift 1 Never mind. Great list Johnny. I like that you have Bad Motor Finger above Super Unknown. I appreciate that. Johnny also goes on to talk a lot about some of his favorite classic

[Jake Brennan]

rock and some of his favorite directors

[Matt Bowden]

and he mentions here that outside of rock I'm a huge Miles Davis fan. Huge. I love it all as a vocalist. I find Miles's trumpet to be a voice. And I think you're spot on there as well, Johnny. So appreciate the email, guys. Disgraceandpodmail.com you want to get in touch. This episode is nearing its end, but

[Jake Brennan]

over in the bonus section of this episode, which is coming up just after

[Matt Bowden]

this, and you can hear the bonus

[Jake Brennan]

part of this episode.

[Matt Bowden]

I'm going to get into my recommendations here. I'm going to talk a little bit about what I'm listening to this week

[Jake Brennan]

and more excitedly, what I'm watching. I'm watching two fantastic shows on tv.

[Matt Bowden]

I'm really, really inspired. Still watching Kenny Powers. I'm about to land that plane. But there's two other newest shows that

[Jake Brennan]

I'm absolutely adoring at the moment.

[Matt Bowden]

I'm gonna talk about both of them. And you guys can hear that. Just so long as you become a member, an all access member of Disgraceland. And that's very easy to do. You just go to Disgracelandpod.com membership and you sign up. It's five bucks a month.

[Jake Brennan]

You get the BO section of the after party. You get the extra exclusive episode of

[Matt Bowden]

Disgraceland once a month. We just released an episode on Slipknot that came out last week that is there for you. You guys want to sign up? Come on and get some. Get that Slipknot episode. Next month we get an episode on David Crosby, which is up. I gotta tell you, Crosby was an animal. Crosby might be my answer to next week's question of the week on who

[Jake Brennan]

is more debaucherous than Billy Idol.

[Matt Bowden]

It might be David Crosby.

[Jake Brennan]

That guy. Damn.

[Matt Bowden]

Well, we're going to get into all of that, but the only way you're going to be able to hear it

[Jake Brennan]

is if you become a member.

[Matt Bowden]

And that's just five bucks a month. Now you also get ad free listening of Disgraceland. All Disgraceland episodes, not just the exclusive episode, all of them ad free. And listen, we're selling ads lately, guys. We teamed up with our partners over at Odyssey and they're selling the shit out of the show. So there's lots of ads. You might hate the ads, but I gotta tell you, I gotta pay people. I gotta pay myself. I gotta produce this awesome content. It is not. It's not free to do. It costs money. But if, listen, if you're annoyed with the ads, I get it. There's a way around it. Five bucks a month, you're gonna get that ad free listening on Every episode, you're gonna get that exclusive episode as well.

[Jake Brennan]

And you're gonna get the bonus section of the after party. Just go to Disgracelandpod.com membership.

[Matt Bowden]

All right, guys, we are back. And listen, I'm about to get out of here. Before I do, I. I cherry picked some episodes from our archive for you guys. And I'm doing this because the Snoop Dogg Archive episode came out last week, and it did gangbusters in terms of downloads. Lots of listens. This episode came out in 2019, okay? And it's just getting massive new exposure. So I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. And I thought, you know, we can only release one archive episode a week. I should probably do a better job of bringing to some of these other

[Jake Brennan]

episodes that are in the archive.

[Matt Bowden]

I know there's a lot of Deadheads who listen to this show, and I know that the Grateful Dead episode of Disgrace sand has been talked about a lot. But there's a second episode, an episode on Pig Pen, an episode on the Grateful Dead's Pig Pen, which really gets in. I kind of treated it as Grateful Dead origin story. It's really kind of like it's about their come up. It centers around Pigpen, of course, but it's about all the great weird, strange, weird Americana that they were into. And I think you're gonna dig it. There's also.

[Jake Brennan]

So from all this great sort of crime, true crime, not true crime, crime fiction that I've been absorbing lately. And talking about. I was just talking about a crime show in the bonus section of this after party got me thinking about the Pantera episode of Disgraceland, which is one of my favorites.

[Matt Bowden]

And of course, you know, I'm a sucker for a good mob story. I'm actually looking forward, by the way,

[Jake Brennan]

side note, to watching that new Robert De Niro movie where he plays two.

[Matt Bowden]

Two roles simultaneously opposite one another.

[Jake Brennan]

I can't think of the name of the film, but it got fucking panned when it came out last week.

[Matt Bowden]

But I watched the trailer and I'm into it, and it's a mob story. But anyways, Mob stories from Disgraceland, the Tommy James episode.

[Jake Brennan]

Tommy James, Okay.

[Matt Bowden]

Also, this has relevance with Billy Idol

[Jake Brennan]

coming up next week. Mony. Moni.

[Matt Bowden]

Okay, get into that. And you know, I'm mentioning Billy Idol here. Billy Idol makes me think of the Sex Pistols, because Billy id. Generation X from back in London back in the day, back part of that first, first generation of UK punk. Billy Idol's band, Generation X. And we talk a lot about the Sid Vicious episode of Disgrace and But

[Jake Brennan]

there are two episodes on the Sex Pistols that are waiting for you in the archive.

[Matt Bowden]

Matt will have all the information on these episodes in the Show Notes. If you want an easy guide to finding them in our massive archive, check the Show Notes.

[Jake Brennan]

He'll have that info there. There.

[Matt Bowden]

All right, let's recap, shall we? Number one, My other podcast, Hollywood Land, is live and kicking over in the Hollywoodland feed.

[Jake Brennan]

So make sure you are subscribed and

[Matt Bowden]

following Hollywoodland on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

[Jake Brennan]

wherever you get your podcast.

[Matt Bowden]

Number two, Right now, in your Disgrace Land feed, our part two episode on Bob Dylan.

[Jake Brennan]

Number three. Coming tomorrow, our rewind episode on James Brown.

[Matt Bowden]

Number four, Merch Winners. Get in touch. You know who you are. Number five. Remember, no one cares about preserving the true spirit of rock and roll more than you do. And, well, that's a disgrace. All right, in honor of this week's subject, Bob Dylan, this is me reading you the phone book from June 17, 1972, the day of the Watergate break in. Why Watergate and Bob Dylan? Well, you have to listen to part two of the Bob Dylan Story. Find out.

[Jake Brennan]

All right, here we go. Number one the Candyman, Sammy Davis Jr. And the Mike Curb congregation. Last week one peak position one weeks on chart 15. Number two I'll take you there the Staple Singers. Last week two peak position one weeks on chart 11 number three song Sun Blue Neil Diamond. Last week four peak position three weeks on chart seven number five nice to be with you gallery. Last week six peak position five weeks on chart seven number six out of space, Billy Preston. Last week nine peak position six weeks on chart nine. Number seven travel night came in Jimmy Castage.

[Matt Bowden]

Quit talking and start mixing. Cut it.

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