B (3:34)

Definitely. I mean, first with the rollout, I appreciate PG Lang respecting my time. I am done with rappers teasing that they're going to drop a project for like, literally there. I won't name who, but there are rappers out there who, like, all right, eight months to go till my mixtape. I'm like, no, fucking drop it when. When it's ready. And it's like, when you asked me to be on this episode. I had even forgotten that the Keem record was like, upon us this week. Where. Or last week, which I appreciated. I actually thought. Usually I think documentaries are very annoying when rappers or pop stars, whatever, do the documentary before the rollout. But I actually think this one helped me situate the project in terms of Baby Keem's career and what he was trying to achieve. Because to your point, I think there was a lot of. After the Melodic Blue, I almost think the Melodic Blue did probably more than they thought it would.

A (4:38)

Yeah.

B (4:38)

And I think it kind of intensified how much people wanted from Keem and the moment that people wanted so much from him, he got of like the avatar disappeared.

A (4:49)

Yeah. And we haven't talked about, obviously, the Kendrick connection with, I think also comes with its own expectations and hype and anticipation where it is. I mean, PG Lang, it's hard to know if. What is the other guy's name? Tana Leone or. I'm blanking on his name right now. I don't even know if that he's on PG Lang still. Like, he hasn't put out anything, and there's kind of online rumors that maybe he's not on PG Lang. I'm not. I'm not exactly sure. But, yeah, I mean, even. And then. Even when I saw the track list at 11 songs, 37 minutes, it's like, you haven't released any music in five years, and now, so that comes its own pressure. And then 11 songs. I mean, just in general, that's putting a lot of pressure on each song to be very, very good. But as far as respecting our time, I really appreciate a concise album, especially these days. And so I guess we can just jump into the album itself. I'll just open the floor to you, maybe describe your Keem journey, because you were famously not so much a fan of Keem in the early days, but have kind of in recent years converted to a baby Keem fan. So I. I guess I'm curious lay out that for. For the listeners, but also, like, what about Keem eventually won you over?

B (6:09)

I think, you know, besides me being full of some piss and vinegar in my younger years and just being a hater.

A (6:17)

You have softened. Yeah, you have softened over the years. I have.

B (6:20)

I think it's.

A (6:20)

I would like to take some credit for that, too.

B (6:23)

I also think the move to la, it really just kind of like when you're. You wake up warm and the sun is shining and just like, hey, you know, I could listen to a little two phone.

A (6:32)

It's not so bad.

B (6:32)

I can listen to a little two Phone. You know what I mean? But I think in the beginning, I don't think I was in a camp that was that unfamiliar to a lot of people, which is like, who is Baby Keem? I was still very connected to the music industry and writing about music, and you had heard rumors that he is related to Kendrick in some way. So already my Nepo baby radar went off, which I don't think is fair. I think even that whole type of, like. I think this was also around a time where nepotism in a lot of areas, whether it was in movies, tv, who gets what was starting to bubble up. So already I was a little bit like, I don't know if I could trust this. And I think that first project that he. He dropped, Die for My Bitch. Right?

A (7:22)

Yeah.

B (7:23)

It was a record that, like, I had to Go back to and appreciate because it's so young, it's so childish in the best way possible. But it's like, it's. Keem is almost like a little jester, and I just didn't get the joke at the time. And then with Melodic Blue, I was like, okay, the beats are more epic and they're bigger and Kendrick is standing next to him more prominently. And once again, I was like, I don't know if I could trust this. And then I think what ended up happening is I realized how to position Keem, which is the thing that I think excites Kendrick about Keem is like, this is a kid with a lot of ideas. You know, he almost. It's hard for me to judge Keem as an album artist because I don't know if he's been able to deliver a project that from front to back makes sense to me as like an album with a. With the central narrative and theme or whatever. But every single time I listen to his projects, I'm like, oh, you are producer in the sense that you can sell me on an idea. It might be corny, it might be off the wall. It might be like a production technique or you having little voices. But I always am just kind of won over by how willing he is to go there for his ideas. Am I making any sense?

A (8:44)

No, that makes perfect sense. And I agree with you about, like, I don't want to say this the wrong way, your point about him not being an album artist, quote, unquote, in the traditional sense. Because all of his projects, you know, Melodic Blue and especially this one, like, the sound is very. It's varied and that's kind of his sound. Like, we think of like the epic horns and like the Cardo style production where, you know, he does this high pitched voice with the triplet flow.

B (9:10)

Yeah.

A (9:11)

And I think, like, if you had to pinpoint, like, what you would think of when you think of Baby Keem and it was one stylist, you know, you're forced to choose one style. It probably be that one. There's only like, you know, on. Even on this project, there's only like three or four songs like that on this project. And if you go back to Melodic Blue, you. Even though those songs loom large, like Family Ties, of course, Range, Range Brothers, you know, Melodic Blue is incredibly varied too. And I think he does have a gift for stylistic variation. In the same way a lot of people from his generation, I think of Dochi doing the same way differently, but in terms of, like, being able To.

B (9:47)

I don't know.

A (9:48)

Cosplay is probably the wrong word, but kind of fit in in all these different. Different styles. I think he's a strength. You know, I don't listen to this project or Melodic Blue. I think this. This project feels more cohesive even than the. The melodic Blue to me. But I don't listen to it and think it's. It doesn't feel all over the place to me. There's one song near the end we're going to talk about that I think is stylistically the most left. But it's one of my favorite songs on the project. So even if it does feel a little bit out of pocket of the album, like, if the song's good enough, that's really what it comes down to. And so for me, I kind of. I enjoy that about him. I enjoy the variety because he does do. He does execute on it so well most of the time. This, you know, there is a central. I would say theme. I don't think this is a concept album, but I do. Obviously the centering of his childhood is up front. That is accentuated by the documentary, of course, And I think that set the stage for the more introspection side of the album. And it's framed in that way. So the album is bookended by no security and no blame. Obviously, there's a connection in the title, and both of those are the most introspective tracks. And then we get I am not a lyricist right in the middle. So it is kind of like frame Framed or architect around this. Exploring his childhood, his trauma, his background, and just kind of making sense of his upbringing and also the death of his grandmother. But interspersed with that is a lot of songs just like love songs or fun kind of goofy songs about sex. And so I don't know. Yeah. Which version of Baby Keem do you kind of gravitate more and do you feel like the album was all over the place or do you share my opinion on. In terms of like it. It still sounds somewhat cohesive despite all the variety.

B (11:41)

I don't know if it had. I don't know if the album has as many highs as the melodic Blue. In terms of, like. I don't know if the album ever gets to a range Brothers or Family Ties type level. But to your point, I think it is far more cohesive because in the past, what I would say Keem's. Where Keem, I would situate him is when. I like when he is being a little bit more comical. I like when, even when the song is epic and big. There is just a level of. This kid is trying new flows, trying new ideas. And I think where he's always struggled is what is the narrative core. And throughout all of his projects, from Die for My Bitch to Melodic Blue to this, I think he's always been trying to figure out, how do I rap about my upbringing in my narrative? I think one thing that Kendrick can always rely on is that we know la. We know what LA means to hip hop. We have a visual reference for it. Kendrick comes from a lineage of Pac and Dre and NWA and Snoop. So he gets to play with something that we're more familiar with. And I think what the documentary tried to do and what Keem's been trying to do his whole career is like, how do you situate Vegas? You know? And it was funny. I think Casino was a step in the right direction of him trying to basically tell a story about this version of the family or this pocket. There was a moment in the documentary where Kendrick is basically like, no. Like, why do you think we call ourselves the Hillbillies? And a lot of the music in this isn't just situating, you know, his mom and her struggles with addiction and raising him. It's also situating what a place like Vegas is and what it means and how it can. Between all the drugs and the alcohol and gambling, he's trying to kind of situate, what did that do to my family? What has that done to my music? How did that help raise me? How did that help define me? I don't know if he succeeds in all of the ways, but it's interesting. Like, it's actually. I think it's far more ambitious if you give it the time.

A (14:04)

I think so. I agree. And I think part of being so close to Kendrick and the, you know, popular consciousness is that maybe that our expectations of the conceptual side of Keem are too high. Just because he is standing so close to Kendrick that we think Kendrick is going to infuse that in him or teach him how to do that. We don't know if Keem is necessarily interested in making narrative concept, highly complex albums. I don't. Doesn't sound like he is. I think it feels like the. Him addressing his childhood was something that he always planned on doing. Even in the melodic Blue. I forget what song, but he alludes to his childhood but says, you know, but that's for the next project, you know, so it seems like he'd been working towards this concept for. For many years. It was originally titled Child with Wolves. I believe. And so I think we kind of expected this is where he was going to go with it. Does it land, like, in the moment when I'm listening to the intro or the outro or even songs, parts of I Am Not a Lyricist or even Highway 95 freestyle, you know, the imagery and the emotions that he's revealing are really impactful. I'm not sure they necessarily add up in a way, narratively or conceptually. Where it lands in any one place, aside from it feels like the last song, it's him. Kind of the kind of classic adulthood thing where you start to see your mother as a human being and not. And kind of removing some of the expectations that you have on her as a mother. And it feels like that's the. The moment of catharsis is that last. That last song. But I don't. I don't necessarily think there's an arc to the journey that gets us there. Where that song is, you know, like a Kendrick, where, you know, everything that comes before it kind of leads to this moment. And it's so impactful, not only because the song is good, but everything has been leading to this moment narratively. I don't think it quite lands in that same way.

B (16:07)

Well, I was going to ask because Kendrick said something that was interesting where in the documentary, he's like, yo, I have so many homies that rap, cousins, friends, whatever. He was like, at 14 or 15, baby, keem already was the most talented just on the production side. And one thing that I felt was very, very interesting is that what he was talking about, what impressed him about Keem, he was not necessarily talking about lyrics, which is like, what you think? And I'm like, yo, how many of Kendrick's friends or cousins or whatever try to out lyric him or try out story structure, this and that. And everything he's talking about with Keem is like, yo, he had such an ear for melody. He had such an ear for just, like, what would work in the song. And he was advancing his ways. And, like, when I listen to this album, that's actually the things that I like about it. Where to your point? I'm like, I'm actually not holding Keem to the Kendrick stature because I don't even think that's what his art is trying to do. Like, I've seen a lot of people be like, good flirts isn't as good as just like some of the other, like, Kendrick and Keem stuff. And when I listen to that record, I'm like, you know, actually, I think this Record is interesting because I've seen Kendrick and Keem do the epic swing before them being silly on kind of just like a record for, sorry to say, like, the girl, whatever, right? I'm like, I think. I think her name is Momo Boyd. To me, her hook on that is flawless. Just like, when I listen to her, I'm like, this is so fun. The kissing on your booty. All right, Kendrick is having fun. There is a level where I'm listening to the record. I'm just like, hey, yo, I could fuck with this. Did you hate good flirts? Is that the thing with Keem and Kendrick that you don't like?

A (18:06)

I. I love goofy Kendrick. It was when I first heard it, I was like, oh, that's interesting, because you are kind of, you know, are they going to do Family Ties Part two? And of course they don't. And that's probably the best. You know, a smart move, because that's. At this point, I think that would just feel a little bit formulaic. And so I like that they took the collaborations on this album in a different direction. I think that that song was my least favorite when I was listening to the first couple times, and now it's grown on me, and it's one of my favorite songs on. And that's what I love about their chemistry with Hillbillies. But even on, like, Family Ties and Range Brothers, with, you know, the goofy voices, like, it feels like as much as Kendrick is giving to Keem, I have always thought that Keem is equally giving to Kendrick. And I don't know if that's a direct. If it's indirect or direct in terms of Keem. I think it might just be Keem being in the presence of a. Of youth, and it sounds like they kind of have a goofy relationship. I love that how that translates has always translated into music with them together. And so I did think the collaborations worked for me. And to your point, I think. I think I do like Keem's melody. More melodic songs more than the more hype songs at this point. I think he has a real talent for melody. He's not the best singer, like, technically, but his ear for melody and the way he's able to change his voice and kind of shapeshift to wherever the song needs to go for the most part, is really, really strong. I think, like, my favorite song probably right now is Birds and the Bees.

B (19:48)

Really?

A (19:49)

I love that song. I absolutely love that song.

B (19:51)

Wow.

A (19:52)

You don't like that song?

B (19:54)

I'm not a fan.

A (19:55)

Oh, my God.

B (19:56)

I'M not a fan.

A (19:57)

I thought you. Okay, see, this is why I like talking to you. Because every time I think I have a sense of your music taste, you always surprise me.

B (20:04)

Before we go to Birds and the Bees, I have to. I want to. Because we're. Before we get off Kendrick, because I want to save the rest of Keem, I have to pitch you on something.

A (20:11)

Okay.

B (20:11)

I have two questions.

A (20:12)

Okay.

B (20:12)

And I don't know if you prepared. First is my take that Keem is Kendrick's best collaborator. Being prisoner of the moment now, I would say people would be like, well, what about Schoolboy? What about sza? What about. I'm talking. I'm not talking about producers. I'm not. I'm talking about people who are featured alongside him.

A (20:34)

Him.

B (20:35)

Because at this point, I think. I don't know if I've heard a bad Kendrick Keem record. I would honestly say that, like, in a short amount of time, I prefer him to almost any other rapper he's been next to. Am I bugging?

A (20:51)

I don't think so. And maybe it's just because he hasn't as consistently collaborated with anyone else aside from Keem, but I'm trying to think of. Yeah, I mean, the obvious go to would be some of the TD guys. I think he does have good chemistry with, like, Schoolboy specifically. But I. I appreciate that. It seems like every time Kendrick and Keem collaborate, there's a specific aura that they tap into, and it is comical, kind of. It's just. It's just not as serious as Kendrick usually is. And we don't get those moments from Ken. I guess we're getting more of those moments recently, but traditionally, we haven't got those kind of moments from him.

B (21:33)

It's Dr. Dream, Slim Shady, a little bit where it's like, even I thought of Eminem on this project a lot in terms of just, like, how central the maternal aspect of it is. But I bring up Dr. Dre and Eminem because, to your point, Eminem would bring out the fun in Dre. Like, it's like, when they would. It would always kind of be a moment when they were on record together or they would produce, and, like, that's kind of that relationship. But I also want to pitch you on something really quick. Here are my Keem and Kendrick collaborations ranked.

A (22:05)

Okay. Okay.

B (22:06)

I want to. I want you to see if, like, if I'm bugging. I think coming in at number six, good flirts. Number five. Number five is house money.

A (22:17)

You like house money more than good flirts?

B (22:19)

Yes. I think house money is great. I think house money is great. It is. It is so epic. I love house money.

A (22:24)

Me. Okay.

B (22:25)

Number four, Savior. Think Savior is a great song. Not my. It's not my favorite version of Keem and Kendrick, but I love Savior. Number three, Range Brothers. Number two, the Hillbilly Hillbillies. Number one, family Ties.

A (22:42)

I think that's a fair. That's fair. I mean, maybe.

B (22:44)

Would you. Where would your list be?

A (22:47)

Same top three, for sure.

B (22:49)

Oh, Hillbillies Over Range Brothers. I thought you would be, like, really, bro? But Hillbillies.

A (22:52)

Hillbillies is. That's. I want a whole album like that. Give me the Hillbillies album.

B (22:56)

We go. Yes.

A (23:01)

The whole messy and Neymar. I love that. Like, I absolutely love that. Yeah, no. No big discrepancy. I mean, I might have. How I might have. I mean, House Bunny is great, but it feels like walking in the party.

B (23:15)

I love that.

A (23:19)

Wait, I thought you would have moments on here.

B (23:21)

I thought you would have Savior. Savior in the top three. Well, that one.

A (23:24)

I mean, that feels less like a collaboration, more so Keem featured on a Kendrick song, if that makes sense. Where the other songs. I think every other song you listed feel more like, collaborative, like, true collaboration, you know, so that's that. So in terms of collaboration, I probably have Savior near the top of this list as a song on its own, but as collaborations, I think your list is about right.

B (23:51)

No.

A (23:52)

No major pushback.

B (23:53)

So if we're. If we're gonna pivot into not negative, like, territory, but kind of like, oh, this is what trips me up about the album. I think two records in specific. I'm just like. I think these are good records on their own, but totally derailed a project. The first. Let me. Let me get it up really quick. All right. Sex Appeal with Too Short, Dramatic Girl with Shaya Crew songs I like in a Vacuum, but I'm like, get them the fuck off this album. Like, they derail it. I feel like they derail it.

A (24:28)

Okay. Dramatic Girl. Tonally, I get that's the one song you might point to and be like, yeah, this feels out of place. However. I fucking love that song. That is one of my favorite songs on the album. I thought you would love it too. It's like classic indie pop. I don't know. It reminded me of, like, MGMT or, like, the early 2000 or, like, the mid-2000s.

B (24:49)

Keem has. Keem has a record like this on every album. Like, I know he does on Die for My Bitch. It's. It's the. What's the what? My ex.

A (25:01)

Okay. Yeah.

B (25:01)

Like that type of. To your point, Indie pop almost. Keem being like, well, what if I was just fucking Rivers Kumo for like. And you're just like, no, get the shit out of here. And I like Shaya Crew. I like Shaya Crew. I've listened to a lot Shaya Crew records. I think he's very talented. I think that this is like the type of record that you just. Lucy in the Summer. Just put it off. Don't project.

A (25:24)

That's a good point. That maybe that's. That maybe that's the better move. I thought you would like this song.

B (25:29)

I'm a little disappointed, but, like, I'm in one. Like when I'm listening to Highway 95 or Casino or all these other records and then that one comes on. Dramatic girl. I'm like, all right, Keem, bro. Like, you know, and same thing with the two short record. I. I actually like that record. In a vacuum. I get. I think it makes narrative sense within the flow of the album. But I gotta be real, like, Too Short is kind of fine on it. I love Too Short. Too Short's a G, but it feels more so, like a flex. Like, we got Too Short on the record versus maybe using him to the fullest of his capabilities. Am I being.

A (26:09)

Well, I love the beat for Sex Appeal. Absolutely love the beat. I actually would. I think I would have preferred it as a Too Short song that featured Baby Keem, because for me, Baby Keem's vocals on that track, for me don't really land. And when I. When. Especially when you're side by side with Too Short, who's just. This is his kind of production. And so I thought Too Short kind of stole the show on. On the. On the song, but it's. I like the beat more than the song, and I'm kind of indifferent about it as a whole. On the project. I guess it'd probably be near the bottom of my rankings, but this is. I mean, this is kind of the pressure that you put on yourself for 11 song project where every song kind of has to hit. And I think he. I think he does that for the most part. I.

B (26:54)

It's.

A (26:54)

It feels. Overall, it just feels really like a solid project. But I think if we're talking negatives about it, I think what you said earlier is probably my biggest critique of it, which is it doesn't necessarily hit the highs of a Melodic Blue, but I do think it's a better overall record than Melodic Blue if that makes Sense, I.

B (27:15)

We are in the same. We are in the same place. I just do want to be like, I like this record, though. And that's the thing where it's like. I think maybe the disappointment, if we're going to be honest, is that, to me, this record would have gone over well if there wasn't such a gap in terms of when it was released. And I think this is partially Kendrick and Keem's fault in terms of, like, over delivering, because I think in a very short time, Keem became an artist that if you would've told me that he would've made this big of a jump as a rapper in a production after Dye My Bitch to Melodic Blue to this, I'm like, oh, there's something special about him. But when you make people wait this long, I think they come to the record with expectations that are almost unfair. I think, weirdly, it kind of matches up to me with J. Cole, where it's just like. Or J. Cole. That album, to me, struggles with the weight placed upon it because he's been touting it for so long. Casino is in a similar way, but instead of overstuffing the album like Cole did, Keem almost understuffs it and is just like, you know what? I would rather give you something short, direct, and to the point. And it's better. You guys want. Leaving y' all wanting more than being like, damn, I got. I got another hour of this record.

A (28:41)

Yeah. No, and, yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah. I think I'm 100 in agreement there. It would. Yeah, it's the thing where it's like, you're. You're just kind of, like, averaging it out, where it's like, there's a lot of, like, eights on this album, but I don't think there's a 9 or a 10 where. I think Black Blue had nines and tens, you know, but maybe less. A little more filler.

B (29:02)

Yeah.

A (29:04)

But, yeah, I do think. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, PG Lang is definitely, so far, kind of following the model of tde. Less is More. Each. Each project being impactful, not a lot of filler, not a lot of singles in between projects. And not every artist can, like, survive that cadence. You know, we've seen artists from TDE leave TDE because, you know, they couldn't kind of either. They. Them as an artist were just. Aren't made for that type of release cadence. I don't think it works for everyone. And it also puts a lot of pressure on each project because if you go away for three, four, or five years, and then you're. You release something that's kind of lackluster, just kind of average. I mean, then you're just kind of. Now it's an uphill battle just to stay relevant. And I think. I think Keem did enough. I think we're all very still very excited about Keem. I'm looking forward to whatever he gives us next. I do hope the release cadence is a little bit quicker, but let me. Maybe. I don't think we've talked about some of the songs enough, so let's go back into.

B (30:06)

I want to talk to you about my favorite songs.

A (30:08)

Yeah, let's. Yeah, we didn't do favorite songs yet, so I'm curious to know yours.

B (30:11)

So I. Weirdly, it's not my favorite Keem Mode, but I think no security and no blame. Front back of the record. Really good, actually. Like that. To me, I was just like, oh. Even if, like, I know there's the I am not a lyricist song, but, like, there were moments where I'm just like. Even if technically, Keem is not the most intricate rapper, the way he told the story of his past couple years growing up in Vegas, trouble with his mom and almost. He does a very, very good job at key points in this record, painting the chaos of his childhood life and constantly, like, what his grandmother meant to him. His grandmother getting arrested, his mother leaving. Almost. In this project, I've learned more about Keem on, like, on the. Like. On no Security and no blame, Highway 95 casino, those type of records. Then I learned in his entire career up to that point. And that is difficult.

A (31:20)

Yeah, yeah. And to be this vulnerable with some of the subject matter, you know, I always appreciate that. It's not. I imagine it's not hard or it's not easy to. To put together songs like that. Especially that last song, man, it's like there's moments that are just tear jerkers in terms of that something. Because he's very good at, like, imagery. So he'll give you, like, an image of him walking barefoot in the cold outside at night. Yeah, you're like, you're seven years old. Why are you. Why are you outside at night in, you know, running the streets of Las Vegas in the cold?

B (31:53)

Do you think he sounds like three stacks on. I am not a lyricist. I saw a lot of people being like, yo, he sounds like Andre, and I get it. But I was a little bit like, all right, guys, relax.

A (32:03)

It seemed a little overblown. I just think that that Kind of stuff to me is just like, it's the. The nature of everyone feeling that they have to have an opinion, like two minutes after the album comes out where it's like, let me just throw a big name in my tweet so that it gets a little traction. And that's what it felt like a little bit to me. I. I think the comparison is valid in terms of, like, yeah, I can hear that. I definitely. That feels like an inspiration I heard. Like, if you're Familiar off of Section 80, poor man's dreams and DLCs thing at the end, there are some similarities there in terms of that half wrapped, half spoken, kind of flowetry thing that he did. But it wasn't to the point where I was like, this is Andre 3000 cosplay. It didn't take me out of the song at all, which I think is the marker for me of. Is the influence too much. It's too much if I'm only thinking about Andre 3000 and not really listening to you because the similarity is just that overt. You know what I mean? And so it. It didn't bother me. I. But again, I see the similarity, but that's. That. That, to me, is one of the stronger songs on the. On that project. I wouldn't say it's in my, like, top rankings because I'm more drawn to, like, birds and the Bees. I like good flirts now a lot. House money is fantastic.

B (33:22)

Give me your top three or five right now.

A (33:26)

Top three or five. Let me pull up the track list. I mean, I'm trying to think of the one. Like, it's kind of the thing where it's like, which one do I want to listen to and which one do I appreciate the most? It's kind of like the Birds Don't Sing conversation with the Clips album where it's like, Birds Don't Sing is a fantastic song. It means so much. It's not the song I'm going to listen to every time I put the project on, but I can. That to me is like a no security or no blame. I'm not going to probably listen to those songs every single time because I just want to, you know, maybe I just want to have fun or have an easier listen, but I would put no security and no blame pretty high. Like I said, dramatic girl. I might be alone in this. People hit me up on social media or leave a comment on this episode.

B (34:07)

This is crazy.

A (34:08)

I don't know how this. I haven't really heard. Seen that much on it. Like, People's reactions to it. I'm very curious if it works for people or if I'm just alone is not the one.

B (34:19)

And here's the thing, like I said, I know by the end of the year, you're going to. I'm going to be like, yo, you were right, Cole. Dramatic girl is actually a bop. But on this record. No, we gotta be now. Circus Circus, freestyle. I'll with it. Is that the one where, like, I focus. I love that part.

A (34:38)

It's one of my favorite parts on the album. I'm. Okay.

B (34:41)

What. All right, let me. Let me consult my. My notes about some of my other. Oh, Highway 90 95. Speeding down the highway.

A (34:51)

Okay. That's like a perfect example of, like, that is a flow only Baby Keem comes up with. Like, it's so new, you've never really heard it. So catchy and infectious. But then, like, the twist of that song is, like, it sounds sing songy because of the flow. But, like, some of that has some of the most, like, the harrowing imagery on the entire project if you have to listen.

B (35:11)

So you like Highway 95, Part 2? Like, I was like, that's one of the ones that grew on me at first. Like, when I first listened to it, I was like, all right, it's whatever. And then to your point, I would play and listen to the lyrics. I was like, oh, you get some shit off.

A (35:24)

Yeah. But it's interesting that I'd be interested to see, like, which songs, like, you know, organically. Especially what you can tell on streaming, like, which songs are kind of. Because there was no single before this project. Like, I guess they just released a. Right before we recorded this, they just released a video for Birds and the Bees. So that sounds like it's going to be the first single. But I'm actually really interested to see which songs organically take off as quote, unquote, singles. Because to me, to my ears, aside from the Good Flirts and the Kendrick feature, which is always just going to come with its own, you know, over indexing in terms of streams. Yeah, it doesn't really seem to be, like, obvious singles to me. Am I wrong in that? Like, there's not one that's really, like, everyone's talking about. This song is so good. It's the 10 on the album.

B (36:08)

I think. I think you're right. I would put money that it's going to be either good flirts or house money just because of the Kendrick of it all. But weirdly, and I know as much as I'm being A hater. I would. Dramatic girl. Probably the reason I don't like it as much is like, that to me is some shit that would, like, soundtrack, like an Instagram reel or a fucking TikTok. Like, I could see, like, if they serve it to some influencers, because it just does have that kind of bounce to it where it's like, oh, we went to Japan. Oh, kill. Because you can see it now that I said it. You could see it soundtracking a bunch of fucking TikTok. Like a TikTok trend.

A (36:50)

I could see it. I'm here for it, too. Maybe I'll join in.

B (36:55)

But honestly, house money is that might go in concert. Oh, yeah, I could see. And that's also the thing that I think Keema is very good at, even if I don't necessarily. I think he puts together good albums, even though I don't think he's an album artist. But I do think in a very sneaky way, he probably has one of the best set lists of a young rapper in terms of just, like, there are even songs on this project where I'm like, actually, it's a very smart thing for him to do, to be like, I don't need to try to out Epic Range Brothers or Family Ties. Actually, I need some, like, more love songs. Eddie's very good on each project. Being like, same thing with the Hillbillies. He's just like, actually, I need a silly song here. Actually, I need. And I think now, even when I was watching the live stream, I'm like, oh, you're a good performer. Where I mean this in the best way possible. It is not a diss. Cause a lot of you like, ugh, baby. Keem almost reminds me of a Travis Scott at this point.

A (38:03)

Yeah, no, I see that.

B (38:04)

Where I think he has a little bit more. A lot more depth than Travis Scott, to be honest. But he has what Scott had, which was an ability to think of his music holistically and think about it from, like, how does it sound on the album? How is it going to sound in the music video? How's it going to sound on stage? And that's actually what I think this project was very good at. Is it almost. This is going to sound very bad. It almost kind of filled some gaps in his career where I'm like, you almost have to prove to us you could be a little bit more introspective. You have to prove to us like, my favorite Keem bars are the. Damn, y' all fucking on this old shit. Nah, I got this new model she crazy. Y' all. Like, that is Baby Keem. But sometimes I'm like, all right, Keem, we get it. You fuck the baddest women and make the most money. Can you say something at least? Can you give us a little something?

A (38:56)

What's the song where he says, I hate a curious bitch. Whatever.

B (39:01)

He says, what was that? Baby Keem just humbled a model. Not a fake one, a real one. Don't start like, that is my. But he had so many of those records that I think he's probably like, right, dog. I'm about to be like, you know, probably what he. Baby Keem's like in his 20s now, mid.

A (39:19)

I think he's. I looked at. I think he's either 20. I think he's 25 around there. Hit her.

B (39:23)

I could see him being like, all right, man. I can't sound like a fucking Muppet from Fraggle Rock for my career. Let me get like, no security, no blame. Seem like I am not a lyricist. Seem like those records that you need in the set list where it's like, all right, y'. All, like, right? I can rap.

A (39:43)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he does. Yeah. I mean, I think, again, full circle in the conversation. I think his strong suit is being able to do all these stylistic variations very well and very convincingly. And now we've added introspective Keem to the list of characters he could play. But, yeah, I got tickets to the show in Oakland, so I'm very excited to go to that. I imagine it's going to be very good because I could see a song like Casino, which. I like Casino. I like the second half of Casino better than the first half, but I could see that song just absolutely going nuts live. And so, yeah. I don't know. Anything else you want to talk about as we transition to the fall off?

B (40:24)

No, I think people. Hopefully, people are surprised just like, damn, Charles was very positive on the key. Here's the thing. I like the Keem record a lot. I think my closing thoughts on it, I don't know. I think the big struggle it will have is whether the Keem record can stay in my rotation for the entire year or. And I think the. The. The thing that I will say about Keem is I'm like. I take songs off his projects where it's like, with the clip's record, I would just play the whole clips record. Like, I would just, like, let it ride gnx. I would just let GNX ride. Like, I would listen to songs here and there, and I don't know if Keem has, and I think that's his next. His next kind of like, benchmark. Can you make an album where I want to listen to it back to front versus Hey, I like this, right?

A (41:16)

Yeah, it does feel. And maybe that has to do with the stylistic variation. It does feel like an album you can grab songs on a playlist very easily from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Hopefully we're too negative in the podcast because I do really enjoy the album. I just think it's. It's a. I think. I think the staying power is, you know, we're recording this on Monday. The album just came out on Friday. So this is all just first impressions. But I do think your point is valid about. Is it how sticky is it going

B (41:45)

to be still, if we're being positive, I applaud Keem for making something interesting. I think, like, even if every choice doesn't work on the record, the reason why I'm like, to me, I'm being actually very positive about it is I'm just like, Baby Keem did the thing that, like, I searched for in Baby Keem. He does this thing that, like, I search for in most artists where he made something weird and he made songs that I love and he made songs I didn't like, and he swung for the fences. And even sometimes when he whiffed, I'm still like, oh, at least he's an artist and a rapper trying to do that. Versus, like, he easily could have just, like, given us a bunch of range brothers again, and I'd be like, oh, cool. Cool. And I think I applaud him for, like, almost doing the opposite.

A (42:32)

I agree. 100 and I think maybe that's a good segue into the next album that we're going to talk about because we're on Casino. There doesn't. Even if the song's not my favorite, there's always. There's something interesting about every song on this project. Like, genuinely, I think that's true. Whether it's production, you know, something that's a little off kilter that you never heard before, or his cadence or his flow or his voice, it feels like every song is justified to be on this project in some shape, way or form. And I don't know if I could say the same thing about the Fall off, which we are going to talk about right after this quick break. All right. We are back to discuss J. Cole's the Fall off, released on 2-6-26 shout out to two six. It is a double disc 24 songs 1 hour and 41 minutes. So exactly over one hour longer than Casino. It is a famously a double album concept. Disc 29. The first disc is J. Cole returning to his hometown after the release of 2015 Forest Hill Drive when he was 29. Disc two is disc 39. Current day J. Cole returning to his hometown, reflecting on his career and his come up. This is famously his last J. Cole project, I think. I guess that's the theory. Although there's a recent interview saying that he's not done with music, but he's done with the J. Cole character. Not exactly sure what that means, but here we are a few weeks after the Fall off. Here to talk about it with Charles Holmes. I want to challenge us, I think so. We didn't talk about the Keem album before we jumped on today. Me and you have been texting about the Fall off for a couple of weeks. I think we're on the same page about our feelings about it. This is not going to be a podcast that shames J. Cole fans.

B (44:22)

No.

A (44:24)

But it is going to be an honest assessment of this album that had a lot, a lot, a lot of expectations coming into it. So I want to start with the positives, if we can.

B (44:33)

Charles, Wait, before we even start with the positives, can I give you my overarching just thoughts, impressions, thesis of J. Cole to set the conversation? Because I want to have a very nuanced conversation before we, you know, we get critical.

A (44:47)

Okay, let's do it.

B (44:49)

I think J. Cole is a very talented artist and he has been an artist that when I tell you I have been listening to J. Cole since his first second mixtape, Lights Please, whatever. I've listened to every single project. I think at this point a lot of the J. Cole myth and slander, whether it's the no feature shit, whether it's the J. Cole makes music for who work in a warehouse. Like all those jokes are just like, it's, it's done. Like it's done, it's cooked. We get it. I think all of the Kendrick Drake beef with that all being said, I think the problem with J. Cole and everything that is going to inform how I talk about this project and talk about his career is I think that J. Cole thinks his origin story is way more interesting than it actually is. And I think in the beginning of his career, unfortunately, he painted himself into a corner where he took a cliche and I don't want to be harsh, but his two loves are basketball and hip hop and he took a cliche of like, I'M going to paint my entire career within this box of a JV athlete who wants to go varsity, who wants to make the NBA, but he's put on the bench because nobody knows how talented he is. And all of my records, whether it's the fall off, the come up, the whatever you want to call it,

A (46:28)

I

B (46:29)

think hemming in, and I don't want to linger on that too long. But the more and more I listen to this project, I'm like, yo, you're 39, still rapping about what if you never made it? And that is just a very, very, very, very, very hard thing to make interesting to me. Am I being too cruel? Up top.

A (46:51)

Maybe up top. Because I want to start positive.

B (46:53)

Charles Sorry, I thought I'm trying to be measured. I'm trying to be measured and have a nuanced J. Cole conversation.

A (46:59)

It is. Okay, it is, but it does. Maybe I'm gonna waste this take too early, but it is the thing that I that underlines what, what the fall off as kind of once and for all, for all solidified in my mind that J. Cole just doesn't have anything interesting to say conceptually or like, your. His focus on his life and that narrative that you just laid out seems like to be his only thing that he kind of falls back on. And what I've always wanted from J. Cole, what I was hoping to get with this project, was him saying something more than that, I guess. And when you have conceptual projects and you kind of rap about yourself in a certain way, I am going to place certain expectations on you and what you have to say. And I think it. He has continually fell short in having something interesting to say. That doesn't mean I don't think he makes good music. That doesn't mean I don't think he's one of the best lyricists that we have or just general. I think his talent as a lyricist and a rapper is just absolutely top tier. My take about J. Cole for years now has been I love J. Cole a la carte. I love him when someone else picks the beat. I love him not coming up with the hook. I love him just rapping. And usually that. That on a feature that's one verse or even like a song, like the fall off is inevitable off this project. That is my favorite song on the project. And it's. It's no coincidence that there's not a hook on it, that the production's pretty good, and that he's just doing what he does best, which is just rapping, you know, Wordplay, rhyme schemes, flows. Just showing off that technical ability. And it's funny, that song, conceptually, is very interesting in terms of, like, telling his life story backwards, except for the fact that it's, you know, a nod to Nas, who kind of did the same thing before. And I feel like there's a lot of that conceptual stuff where it's like he's kind of drafting off of concepts that we've already heard before, and it kind of takes the magic. You know, there's a famous saying for magicians that you don't do the same trick twice in front of the same people. And I feel like a lot of these songs, whether it's what if? Whether it's the fall off, is inevitable. I Used To Love her kind of are drafting off of these concepts that

B (49:27)

we've heard before doing, like.

A (49:29)

Yeah, doing very. Doing very good. Good with the concepts. Like, objectively, I think he executes them very well, except for the fact that we. There's. There's something to compare it so that the innovation that. That, like, oh, shit, he just did that, and we're all kind of realizing it at once, like, oh, he did that. He did that. That part of it is just kind of never there for me. And so, to your point, I guess I wanted to start positive. Charles.

B (49:57)

We are, I think, because I think. But you're locating something that I think is important, which is, like, I think Kendrick and J. Cole are similar in this way, where to me, they are almost the first. I don't want to say first generation, but I will say for. For the purposes of the analogy, the first generation that are hyper fans of hip hop in a way where it's like they have the Internet. Hip hop history is now becoming a thing. There's been enough music where it's like, you can tell that Kendrick and Cole look up to Pac, Biggie, Nas, Jay, Cannabis, whoever, like, in these very, very, very interesting ways, but in ways that sometimes can make it so that their music almost feels like cosplay, where it is like you are in real time watching hip hop become ip, where it is. Like, I think J. Cole does this a lot, which is, to your point. He takes the song that's already popular, or he takes a motif or a song structure, and he's like, well, Nas did it this way. I'm gonna do it the J. Cole way. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Come up with your own thing. And what I think is interesting, I think this record is at its best when almost J. Cole Stops trying to cosplay as other people, and he just tries to be J. Cole. And sometimes I'm like. When the record gets away from him, I'm a little bit like, hey, yo, motherfucker, why are you. Why are you trying to convince me that, like, I don't know, you had a rough life because your mom was white and people don't respect. She's like, I don't. Come on, Cole. Sorry. Wait. All right, where should we start? You know what? Here's where I want to start. Disc one, disc two. Which disc? Do you think that this project works well as two discs? Because, like, I know it's hemmed in by a narrative, but I just found it to be very, very thin.

A (52:04)

Okay, so we're only a couple weeks outside of the project, so there could be stuff that I. I am missing here. I'll 100 start with saying that although I would say I'm pretty good about this stuff, the concept didn't. Has not landed for me yet. And it's. And it kind of piggybacks off of what I already said, where it's like, if you're going to do. If you're going to take 24 songs and an hour and 41 minutes, that is conceptual in nature. It's like you're very. Being very upfront about this concept. You have been teasing this project for five years or however long. You called it a reasonable doubt. You know, you compared it to Reasonable Doubt. I forgot exactly what verse he said that in. But it's like you're placing, you know, part of this. Part of this album was him placing these expectations on the album, on himself, in order to produce his best work. Like, he's done this now for the last 10 years, where he's kind of gamifying his career to push himself, which I actually really like. I really admire that about him. He does seem to be someone that is striving to be better always, all the time, really honing in on his craft and really paying. Paying reverence to hip hop. You can, you know, you can tell he generally has a deep love for this art form, and I think he represents it very well. And so all that's true. But if you're gonna. If we're. All this build up to this album, it's laid out like a concept album. By the end of the 1 hour and 41 minutes, at the end of 24 hour, 24 songs, I should probably feel something. Yeah, I should probably walk away after you do. After a long, epic movie. Impressed viscerally Feeling something emotionally, intellectually stimulated. And while there's moments of all that throughout the project as a whole, and I think it being so long is a big part of this is like. It just feels very heavy and not. Not in the emotional sense. It just feels like that was a lot of music. There are some high, some. Some slight highs, a lot of lackluster, like just kind of middle tier songs that I think could have easily just been removed from the project. And I just. Whether it's. Whether it's a cohesion thing, whether it's a. A duration thing, there's just something about the project where by the time I get to the end of it, I. I'm glad it's over. And that. I know that sounds harsh to say, but it's like that shouldn't actually be the way that I feel after listening to. If you're gonna make this album this long, there better be a reason for it. And it feels like the only reason for it was that he did build it up so much and that he did take all this time on it. And probably removing some of these songs were probably really hard to do, but it doesn't feel like it. The length doesn't feel justified. The concept to me, as much as I appreciate him conceptualizing didn't do much for me to. To enhance the music or my perception of the music.

B (55:02)

Is the story and the concept interesting? Because what I kept coming back to is I'm like. A lot of J. Cole's music is very much like all right, rap, because it is such a lyric driven genre, always kind of goes back to the origin, the myth. I think the best rappers, Kanye getting like through the wire. Kanye getting into the crash mouth wired shut. College dropout makes good. Jay Z slinging drugs. Kingpin makes it good in rap, whatever. Kendrick Lamar, the good kid. Mad City. I think when you think of all rappers, that origin story tends to be pretty fucking interesting. Or at least the ones that become icons. Tupac, similar Biggie for J. Cole. I'm just like, is. Is you being a kid from Fayetteville, North Carolina who moves to New York to become a rapper and then surprise, it works out. Is that an interesting origin story? Is that like you returning to your hometown? We like, that's what Drake's Take Care is about. To me, that is what to Pippa Butterfly is about a little bit. Which is like Kendrick going to Africa and then coming back and his mind being like, this is something that like rappers especially do a lot. I can see it would take care. I could See what? The Pimp Butterfly. I could see it with those records. With this record, I'm just like, wait, what did you learn, though, about coming? Like, it's just like, that's not a story. You just became famous and then came back to North Carolina.

A (56:42)

I think what would have been interesting about it, maybe what I think maybe he was going for was like, I do this with, like, books and film a lot where I'll read the same book, but, like, 10 years apart, or I'll watch the same movie 10 years apart. And it's almost like a new book because you're 10 years older and 10 years more experience. And, like, you pick up on different things or you relate to different characters or some themes or dialogue might speak to you more now, you know, than when you're 10 years earlier. And so they can pieces of art or just events in your life or whatever it is. Like, you can use those. Like, to me, the concept is actually kind of interesting in that way, where it's like, here's me at 29. Here's me at 39. How am I different now? And I'm going to use my hometown as the benchmark, the. The kind of, like, the consistent piece to, like, tell that story, to make that comparison. It just didn't land to me. Like, the concept could be brilliant. You still have to execute on it, right? And I don't think the concept is necessarily, quote, unquote, brilliant. It does feel interesting enough to make maybe not an album this long about it, but, like, I could see where conceptually he was going with it, but

B (57:51)

there's been no growth. And I think that's the thing where it's like, if you're gonna make a record about who you were at 29, coming back to your hometown versus who you are at 39, you're. And this is going to. This has been pitched as your last album. I should be able to stylistically understand what has made you change. And I think if you take someone like a Drake or a Kendrick, who are his peers, there is a big change in who those rappers were aesthetically, sonically, whatever. To me, J. Cole still sounds like the rapper he was 10, 15 years ago. And that's not bad. It's just for you to make a concept record that's almost two hours about how much you've grown and changed, but you still sound like the same rapper and the same person. I do. I am. A little bit. Like, this might not be playing to your strengths. Is that harsh?

A (58:48)

I think that's a very fair Critique, especially in light of this album, which is the capstone of his career. Yeah, I agree. I mean, there's not the trajectory of his musical evolution. I say musical specifically because that, to me, is somewhat lackluster. I think where you could be positive and point to where he has really grown is. Is as a lyricist, is as a rhymer, as just a technical. Someone that has gotten very, very good at the. The. The craft of. Of rhyming words, you know, whether he has something to say or a lot of. A lot of things to say that are interesting, using those words, not necessarily for me. And that's why he's great as a feature artist, because in a feature, you don't have to say all that much. You could just kind of, like, wow people and then back out because, you know, that's your job.

B (59:37)

You can also have fun. And he doesn't have to be as self serious. You're just like, oh, you're fun to hang out with. When you're just like. To me, J. Cole is almost like the guy who's like, great in a cipher. Great when you're like, just like, bullshit and put a beat on. And then the minute where you're like, it almost. He has this thing where he's like, all right. And now this is me getting serious. I'm being an artist now. Where I think, like, what Kendrick has actually gotten better at in his career is almost taking his hand off the wheel and being like, all right, I'm gonna do hillbillies. All right. Like, I'm gonna be a little bit. Or GNX is a perfect example where he's like, I've done a bunch of concept records. Hey, yo, it's just time to put my city on. I think J. Cole, with his albums has. I'll put you this way. This last time, I'll probably bring up Kendrick. Kendrick has fashioned a career where it's like, because he's already made his classics, he could have a little bit of fun. And because J. Cole is so desperate to count his classics, he still is chasing for that one record that will almost prove that. It's like. Like, I'm not the middle child anymore. I deserve to be here. And I'm like, dude, you don't have to prove anything. You've survived. Like, just have fun. Yeah.

A (60:47)

I mean, that's what's ironic about this. This album, because one of the things that I thought about afterwards was like, man, it'd be interesting to see what he did next, because it's like, almost like a morale in that way where it's like, in a different way. But, you know, there's. He's placed these expectations on himself, whether the album works for you or not, whatever. But clearly this was something he put a lot of pressure on himself to do now that it's out. In the same way that I feel like there is a sense of freedom after Kendrick got the weight of Mr. Morale off his shoulders, I'm actually more interested in that J. Cole than the one we get on the fall off that is this J. Cole character completing a narrative that he's been telling for however many long years his career has been gone. But you know what I mean, like, there. It would be fun to hear him on a mix, a quote unquote mixtape that was actually true to the. I know he's done that before, but it's like in the spirit of an actual mixtape where there is a degree of looseness, there is just, you know, maybe the songs are two minutes and he's just rapping. There's no hooks. That kind of project, like, I would. That's. That's the J. Cole I'm kind of interested in hearing now.

B (61:55)

Honestly, if he's done with the J. Cole project, if I was his homie, if I was his friend, I'm like, I actually think to your point, the. The evolution of your career is like, hey, yo, maybe don't produce your next project. Lock in with one producer. I don't care if it's Cardo, conductor, alchemist, whatever.

A (62:16)

Like, it's the same. Okay, so this, I think, is a good comparison because we've talked about this about Eminem before, where it's like, it feels like their career paths are somewhat parallel to me, where it's like, I feel personally, so I have so much reverence for Eminem, his respect for the genre, his commitment to the craft. One of the best lyricists, one of the best rappers we have ever seen. Yet I think the back half is of his career. He kind of ran out of things to say, and he never really evolved past his own stylistic preferences. And I think you could probably say the same thing about J. Cole to me, you know, personally, all the things about. Positive things I said about Eminem apply directly to. To J. Cole and the same things about his catalog, maybe to a lesser degree than Eminem, but I just don't know if he had much to say after a certain point. And I don't know. Hopefully that's not sounding too harsh, but it's like, it is ironic. That is my favorite project, at least of his is for Urara Sony. And that wasn't his story. That was someone else's story that he was telling. But he's a great storyteller. There's. There's songs on this album where the storytelling is absolutely brilliant. He's really good about that three verse narrative and like making it sound casually giving people dialogue and going back and forth and different perspectives. Like, all that to him, all that for him right now is so organic. And you can just tell that it's because of he's. He's dedicated so much time and passion to this craft. It's just the substance to me is just a little bit lacking. And then we didn't talk about it really too much.

B (63:51)

What songs work for you though? Like, are there songs?

A (63:54)

I'll just say. Let me just say, like, the production on this album, I struggle with a lot.

B (64:01)

It's bad.

A (64:02)

I just, it's. I just.

B (64:03)

It's bad.

A (64:03)

There's just so many. So many songs on here where the production itself, I'm just like, I don't know.

B (64:09)

It's like, do you think he's doing too. Do you think J. Cole. I've always thought this dude. I don't think J. Cole is actually a bad producer. I think that it is almost like he's doing too much in terms of just like there's not as much division of labor where a lot of the. I'll be honest, a lot of the beats on here, it's just something is missing a little bit. Like there is just. And I don't know if we look at Casino. Casino is a perfect example of a record where I'm like, this is a very well produced record. There is a journey. If there was no one rapping on this beat, I could listen to it and be like, no. This is an interesting piece of artwork on its own with a lot of J. Cole's beats. I'm just like, yo, this just kind of sounds like an okay loop. That is just not. Like, if you're gonna do that type of production, the loop has to be fine. Like, it just literally needs to carry me for minutes. And there's just so many times on this project where I was like, the production is not. It's not dynamic. It is very one note. Yeah.

A (65:14)

And that's been a critique of mine this entire. For his entire career where it's like, I am going to compare him to Kendrick because he compares himself. He. He puts himself on that tier and many ways he is on that tier, you know, or at least right around There. So I think, like, part of what I wanted to ask you today, and maybe we can address it right after this, but it's like, are we too harsh of a critiques on J. Cole? But just to finish my point of production. His. Yeah, my. My biggest knack about his production is that it never really goes anywhere. Like, Kendrick's songs go somewhere. There's like, even on a song like the one on GNX where he talks about the aliens and the satellites blanking on the song name now. But it's like, that's a classic example of this, like, mostly straightforward beat that then has this really interesting bridge that gets really melodic and synths come in, and it's like. And then it goes back to the original beat. So it's like there's a journey there. Like, to your point, where it's like, on so many of these songs, maybe. Maybe all of them. Like, the production just never really goes anywhere. So then you're. For me, you're kind of already. It's like an uphill battle now. The lyricism has to do so much of the work. The flow has to do so much of the work. And I. I don't necessarily think of J. Cole as a great hook writer either. So it's just. Yeah.

B (66:32)

That is the thing, though, where it's like, okay, well, if you're gonna be the producer of the beat, if I already. You're already on the back foot. If I feel like the beat isn't going anywhere, if it's not taking me on a journey.

A (66:43)

And this is true of all artists.

B (66:44)

All artists. But I think it is, like, double when it's like, to your point, because he has a limited voice and what. I mean, like, what he can do. I think Kendrick is a perfect example, too, where I think Kendrick is not the most technically gifted singer. Like, especially early in his career, it was hard for him to really like. He. You could tell he understood melody, but it was hard for him to be the one to get it across the line. And what I was.

A (67:12)

There was a point in Kendrick's career early on that he was. I don't think he was great at writing hooks.

B (67:16)

No, not at all. But he got better at it. He learned how to utilize his voice in weird, interesting ways. And with each project, you were like, oh, he has such a command over whether he's on the hook somewhat. You could be like, even though he wasn't on the hook, I could tell that Kendrick, as a producer knew how he wanted to utilize this person where it's like, Petey Pablo on this is a perfect example. I love Petey Pablo. That is someone who like J. Cole. There is a geographical connection between these two artists. On that song especially, I'm like, why is Petey Pablo here? Besides you like it being built on one of his records. You're not necessarily utilizing him to the best of his ability.

A (68:03)

I'll say the same thing about Erykah Badu on this record.

B (68:06)

Yeah, no, like, I. I agree with Erica Badu. I'm like, you got Erykah Badu or you got. Who is else is on the Burna Boy. I love Burna Boy. I love Future. These are all artists that I love in a vacuum. But J. Cole has no chemistry with any of them. He's not utilizing. He's not bringing them into his world in a way where it's like, there's something that you can do. And I want to prove to everybody that I am a producer that could bring someone into my realm and almost pitch you on how I view the world, see it and hear it. Instead, it is like a feature that is tacked on. Sorry I'm being so harsh.

A (68:51)

I know I'm. Again, if. If jcole listeners are. Are still listening at this part. I'm so sorry, but I'm not.

B (68:57)

I'm.

A (68:57)

We're trying to be honest.

B (68:59)

Yeah.

A (69:00)

I mean, it's like. And it's like, it's. I want to like J. Cole. I do like JCole. I like J. Cole and moments.

B (69:05)

But I would hang out with J. Cole. Like, that's the thing. Like. And I think I would have a good time with him. I'm not. Wait, can I be.

A (69:12)

Well, in theory, and. Well, I would just say, like, in theory. He. He kind of checks like, all the boxes that I would want in an artist. It just like, it just. This might be person. This could just be personal opinion, but I do, like, there's a lot of people I respect about their opinion about music that feel the same way as me. And I even talked to specifically my friend Brandon, who's a pretty big J. Cole fan. I. I asked him about this album and, you know, as a, you know, big J. Cole fan, I was very curious to hear what he said. And he was very honest and transparent, essentially said, it's good, not great. Some good songs on it felt too long. Felt like a lot of the concepts are drafting off Kendrick's. And this is coming from a, you know, a pretty, pretty big J. Cole fan. So I don't think the consensus is that far off to what we've been talking about. I just feel bad because I like. I like the guy. I like what he represents. I think his passion for hip hop and getting better, and I think he stands for the right things more or less within the genre. It's just. It just all doesn't all add up. It's like a. It's like a video game character where it's like, you know, all the rankings are like, 7, 8, lyricism, 10. But it's like, I still don't want to play with that character. I don't know. Does that make sense?

B (70:25)

No, it makes perfect sense. I would. I was wondering when I was going through the track list.

A (70:31)

Yeah.

B (70:33)

Is there a good album in here? Because, like, one of my favorites. It's a. My favorite song off this is Lonely at the Top, which is like a bonus record. But it's like, I like the beat. I almost like the fact where it's like, I know J. Cole returns to that type of storytelling a lot, which is like him reflecting on what I like about Lonely at the Top is like. I think it is J. Cole adding a level of clarity to his story. Middle Child is this way as well. Where I'm like, the best of those records is him sharing something that I think is very, very human, which is, I achieved all my goals. I got to the top. I'm aging. And was the thing that I sacrificed for worth it? To me, that is interesting. I don't think it's interesting as something that you stretch out over an entire career. But when he gets in a circle, like, Lonely at the Top is when he gets into a certain pocket where I'm like, oh, no. He even has lines in this that are like, he's talking to the other. He's talking to the J. Coles that are coming up who are thinking the same thing that he thought about his heroes, which is like, you're going to lose it. Like, you're not making the same type of music. And even J. Cole is looking at his heroes being like, dog, if you just let me produce for you, I could create something amazing. I could. I love that type of song.

A (71:56)

I feel like we've heard. Haven't we known this about him for a long time, though?

B (71:59)

But if. If that's what he's interested in, and it's like, I. That's what he's interested in. If we're gonna be Right, right, right, right. Like, that is. That is even. Because you like the song. I personally cannot stand. The fall off is inevitable.

A (72:14)

Oh, that's my. Okay. That's my favorite song in the project

B (72:20)

because to me it's the same as the basketball metaphor. It's as the same as like having a song apologizing to Nas where it is just like. Like, if I have to hear another rapper rapping in reverse about his life, I'm gonna kill myself. Like, we understand. Like, it's like. And I'm not gonna shoot Kendrick any bale. I personally don't like the. What is the. I'm gonna get the actual. Cause I listened to it once and I said never again. What if the song about Tupac and Biggie. Absolutely not every rapper. Enough, enough. If you did not meet Pac and Biggie in real life, I don't want to hear about it. You know, like Drake has the same thing with Aaliyah. Enough. Like, I can't. Am I being an.

A (73:06)

No. I mean that's, that's, that's a. I mean it's a good song to talk about J. Cole and in this respect because it's like that's a con. I mean and them two apologizing obviously is not something we've necessarily heard before. And it's tied up in his apology to Kendrick and this whole beef. But it's also like Reincarnated exists. And that came out last year or a year and a half ago, you know, and it's like even Taylor made Freestyle exists. And it's like, was this purposefully his stamp on the Biggie Pock thing that has been bubbling up recently in the big three that he. He considers himself being in? Is this like his contribution to that? His. Is that. Is that like a conscious thing or is it just like. I don't know. And. But then. But my point really is it's like those things do exist, especially reincarnated. Are you doing it better? Because we are going to measure you against the thing that has. Was came before you. If you're going to do the rewind thing, we are going to measure it against the original. If you're going to do I Used to love her, we are going to measure it against the original. And it's like to me, he wasn't as convincing. He tried to like, he kind of did this half hearted impression of Pac but like not as. Not as well executed as, you know, Kendrick does on Reincarnated. And so like, I don't know, it just. That song is really convoluted with a lot of the context that comes into it to the point where it's like. And I just don't think the production's that interesting. I think the storytelling and the rapping's fine. You know, like that. That's always going to be there for J. Cole. But, like, again, it's like, conceptually maybe interesting. Execution didn't really sit well with me, especially with the context of everything that happened before the song.

B (74:49)

And I think because the beef looms so large over this project, there was a level to me where it's like, if I'm being real, you could have explained. Your explanation could have been as simple as you being, like, on record. Hey, yo, look, I knew that was gonna get nasty. I wanted no parts. My bad. And everybody would have been like, you know What? You almost 40. Like, we got you. Like, I would have appreciated it. I'm probably closer to J. Cole in terms of, like, yo, I feel like spiritually I'm Kendrick, which is like, I'm gonna burn this whole thing to the ground. But sometimes I got a little J Cold me. I'm like, yo, let me go wash dishes with my old lady. I'm not trying, bro. Like, I'm not built for it. And it's just like making a song that is Pac and Biggie apologizing to each other is not cool. It is just not. It is like, story wise. You're like, no, if. If I'm making a movie, an epic movie, what sounds better? These friends who came up in the music industry are torn apart by excess and capitalism. Or they hugged at the end.

A (75:57)

What?

B (75:58)

I'm gonna be all right. This is. I'm gonna get some of my hot takes off right now.

A (76:03)

This whole time, okay.

B (76:04)

I've been holding on to a lot of these.

A (76:06)

Okay?

B (76:06)

The Let out is one of the worst songs. Terrible. All right. The light skin bars on this album are out of control. And I say this as a light skinned. I ask everybody out there. I do a PSA on this all the time. Guys. No, no. Just have some respect for yourself, okay? Like, light skins are annoying. We are annoying. And we just have to take the jokes on the chin. But you rapping the hardest on the mic. Got a white mother. Terrible. You need better friends. Your friends should have deleted the proto style. You can never get that off. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Following it up with subconscious detecting. These think I'm lesser for my complexion. Before I'm done, they all gonna respect. Respect the mulatto.

A (76:52)

No.

B (76:53)

Jake Cole. No, no. And I love you. And I know it hurts your feelings when you're on the playground. I got it. I got the light skinned jokes too. And it was Deserved because I was being annoying. But no, absolutely not. Yourself continuing. Why so much of J. Cole's music he's, like, obsessed with. When making songs about how he almost cheated on his wife, or he dreams of cheating on his wife, or how much better he is than you. Because he didn't cheat on his wife. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, J. Cole. That is not a captivating story. Songs about cheating on your significant other bangers all the time. Songs about being sorry about cheating on your significant other. Incredible songs about you being like, I almost thought about it but didn't do it. Fuck off. Here's the thing. Why would you compare your marriage to your wife as a life sentence? No, don't do that. That is like, I was listening to this. If I was married to someone and they're like, hey, yo, ma, being married to you is like being in jail for all. I'd be like, no. He raps. What's the point of being rich if I gotta do the dishes? Nigga, I don't know. You are rich. That's not an idea. Like, no, I'm not gonna feel bad for you. Sorry. These are the things that I've been holding in. We are too hard on J. Cole. And we will probably end the conversation circling back there. These were like, sorry, sorry. I had to get all of this.

A (78:19)

Oh, Charles, I'm crying. That was great.

B (78:23)

I'm an. I know. I am.

A (78:24)

I feel like we're both being. I really. I mean, no one that likes J. Cole is listening now. They probably turned it off a long time ago. But I like J. Cole. I love J. Cole.

B (78:34)

I like, here's the thing. And people are gonna get mad at me when I say this. I like records.

A (78:38)

Like.

B (78:38)

Like, life sentence. I could see it, like, honestly, if it was another rapper. Like, if he sent this to another rapper and it had a little bit of a different groove. But that's something where I'm like, I could with it. Like I said, lonely at the top. Like, whatever. Like, I like I with it. Old Dog Pablo is not great. But I could see what.

A (79:01)

That's.

B (79:01)

Honestly, that's the thing. I could see what he was going for on a lot of these records.

A (79:04)

Yeah.

B (79:05)

And that's where I end up where I'm like, I don't hate a lot of these records.

A (79:08)

Yeah.

B (79:09)

It's almost. I'm like, this is like a 75. And do you possess the thing to get it to a 90?

A (79:16)

That is exactly. That is probably the best note to wrap up on. Because that is how I felt about J. Cole for so long. And that was what I was hoping this project would prove him right for. In terms of like, we've. We all see the potential. Like, he's more than potential. He's a great artist. But it's just like. It's just that last little. Like that last little 5%, 10% that. Where it's like this. A lot of his albums could be genuinely great. Where it's just like. It just always falls a little bit short. But the. You hear the potential in every single one. We're just like, oh, just get it over the edge. And like, at times he does. But more, who would you put him

B (79:53)

in the studio with? Like, not even just like, if you were like. Cuz I think what we're circling is JCole needs someone he can trust that is a collaborator and is like, who is the Pharrell to his clips, the Dr. Dre to his Eminem. Someone who is like, they might not produce every record, but they are good at editing. They are good at, like, honing in. Like, I think about what Pharrell kept telling clips with the last record record, which is like, no, no, just hone in on the subject. Don't like, don't go off on a tangent. Like, we're hitting this note as hard as we can. Like, who is that person for Cole?

A (80:32)

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if he's this type of producer, but like, Conductor Williams has the style of beats that I would like to hear J. Cole on. Agreed. Rather, he could be the producer in terms of like, shaping him or like any of that stuff. Like, he's not a Dr. Dre or, you know, some in that way or Pharrell in that way. But I would love it's. It's again, the same thought I have about Eminem. It's like, give me the good dusty vinyl record loop curated by a master producer like Alchemist or. Or Conductor Williams.

B (81:01)

What about like a no id Like a. Like someone who is like, maybe not producing every single record, but it's like you have a 4, 4, 4. Where it's like you are almost there to keep this rapper on track.

A (81:15)

Right.

B (81:16)

You know what I mean? And kind of keep them be like always being like, what is the most honed version of this idea? And that's what I want from J. Cole. Him almost to like, let somebody in to be like, no, you're so talented. And I think we both agree you're so talented and you have. You are so good, but I just need a little bit more from you.

A (81:37)

You know who. You know who the perfect person for this is, actually? Who? Kendrick.

B (81:41)

Yeah. Yeah, it's like literally Kendrick. And I think if he want to sign to PG Lang for an hour, I think Kendrick and Baby Keen could like, get Cole and like, make a really good Cole project. Be like, yo, let's tap in. Let's get like, let's do a 12 song project. That is. That's why I think pairing these albums is actually very interesting because I'm just like, oh, I think a. Like, I think honestly, Baby Keem is maybe the answer. Baby Keem being like, oh, you want to be a little bit melodic on this? Hey, I have a momo boy for this. Let her do the hook instead. That's what I want.

A (82:22)

Yeah, J. Cole. Yeah, Some curation. But we're never getting a J. Cole project again, so it's not gonna. This is. But I think let's. Let's just end it there. I. I feel bad when I'm this harsh on artists, on the record, on text message with you, me and you, Charles, I'll let the takes fly. I don't think we were being that harsh.

B (82:40)

I actually think we were kind of measured for the most. Like, I was not trying to be an. I was really trying to give.

A (82:45)

None of this comes. Yeah, none of this comes from like a place. A mean spirited. None of this is mean spirited.

B (82:51)

J. Cole. I would like to get a beer with him and just be like, hey, man, no, no, like, appreciate what you do for the ville, cuz. You know what I'm saying? Just. It's. It's okay. And I want him to be honest with himself. Hey, be like, hey, no more songs about cheating on my wife or wanting. Keep it inside the bedroom.

A (83:13)

Maybe you'll connect with, you know, because, you know, there's a part of me that connects with. I've been married for a long time, so there's part of me that connects with that. Maybe one day you were listening to

B (83:19)

a life sentence and you were like, hell, yeah, this is how it feels.

A (83:23)

Finally, you got one for me. He understands my plight. Yeah. All right, Charles. Well, this is beautiful. I always love talking to you. We're going to have a next season of Last Long Standing, which is the show me and Charles do together on the Dissect feed coming this summer. But before that is going to be season 14 of Dissect. I'm going to reveal who that artist is very, very shortly.

B (83:43)

So is that in your. In the frame of your camera, Charles. What?

A (83:49)

Well, okay, well, if they listen to the whole.

B (83:51)

They deserve.

A (83:52)

They deserve it, so.

B (83:53)

Because I. That's sick. You not slick. Honestly. I'll tell people this before we go. This is the most hype I've ever been for a dissect season. Like, it's just like, you feel energized, Cole. Like, you feel.

A (84:05)

I do.

B (84:05)

Would you be texting me some of this shit you got? I was like, hey, this is about to be a banger.

A (84:10)

It's going to be different. Yeah. I'm very excited. And I get to geek out on production more than probably I ever have before. So.

B (84:19)

Hell, yeah.

A (84:20)

All right, so we'll be back together. Last song standing this summer season 14 coming very soon. Everyone listen to IDK's Even the Devil Smiles. We got a beautiful interview with him next week. Thanks, Charles. All right.

B (84:32)

Yo, thanks.

A (84:33)

Go.