BONUS - Dissecting JESUS IS KING w/ Femi Olutade

Summary

Podcast Summary: BONUS - Dissecting JESUS IS KING with Femi Olutade

Podcast Information:

• Title: Dissect
• Host/Author: The Ringer
• Description: Analyzing the music and meaning of one album per season, one song per episode. Join host Cole Cuchna as he dives deep into albums by Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West, Radiohead, Beyoncé, Tyler The Creator, Frank Ocean, and more. Let's Dissect.
• Episode: BONUS - Dissecting JESUS IS KING w/ Femi Olutade
• Release Date: November 1, 2019

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Introduction

In this special bonus episode of Dissect, host Cole Cuchna engages in an in-depth conversation with theologian and Christian writer Femi Olutade to explore Kanye West's album Jesus Is King. Released on October 25, 2019, this album marked a significant shift in Kanye's musical and personal journey, embracing Christian themes and gospel influences.

Setting the Stage: Kanye's Transformation

Kanye West initiates the discussion by acknowledging the album's recent release, emphasizing that both he and Femi are still processing its themes and messages.

Kanye West [01:48]: "So today we're going to talk about Jesus Is King from Kanye West, released recently."

Femi Olutade highlights the dual challenges Kanye faces: overcoming his notorious public persona and embracing his newfound Christian faith amidst widespread skepticism.

Femi Olutade [02:04]: "Kanye's such a complicated character, and he's so in the public consciousness. So everyone's going to kind of have preconceived opinions about Kanye."

Preconceived Notions and Public Perception

Kanye addresses the cynicism surrounding his adoption of Christianity, with some viewing it as a mere attempt to regain public favor. However, he contends that this shift represents a genuine personal risk rather than a calculated move.

Kanye West [02:59]: "I think this is more of a risk than anything."

Femi categorizes listeners into four distinct groups based on their relationship with Christianity:

1. Committed Evangelicals: Likely to embrace the album's message.
2. Former Christians: Neutral or somewhat positive, appreciating the work without full commitment.
3. Secular Individuals with Minimal Exposure: Often neutral or slightly negative, observing cautiously.
4. Secular Individuals with Strong Antagonistic Feelings: May dismiss the album outright due to negative associations with Christianity.

Femi Olutade [04:35]: "There's just, like, how whatever people bring to the table in terms of their preconceived notions about Christianity... really is a dominant lens in how they view the album."

Biblical Narratives and Thematic Foundations

The conversation delves into biblical stories that parallel the album's themes, particularly the story of King Nebuchadnezzar from the Book of Daniel. This narrative serves as a metaphor for Kanye's own journey from pride and ego to humility and spiritual awakening.

Femi Olutade [08:07]: "The story of King Nebuchadnezzar... it's a metaphor for Kanye... at the core of all this stuff was his pride and his ego."

Kanye connects this to his personal struggles, including mental health challenges and a pivotal moment of enlightenment that led him to recognize God's supremacy.

Kanye West [16:30]: "It's like what you saw in the last couple of years was this, like, that finally led him to this breaking point... where he just really broke down."

Album Structure and Key Themes

Femi outlines the overarching themes of Jesus Is King, focusing on the Kingdom of God, humility, and spiritual warfare. The album is divided into two halves:

1. First Half: Kanye grapples with integrating his faith into his life, embodying the role of a soldier in spiritual warfare.
2. Second Half: A deeper embrace of humility and surrender to God's will.

Femi Olutade [17:24]: "The album title... the kingdom of God being this idea that God is king and he rules over the world and humanity."

Song Breakdown and Analysis

1. Every Hour [25:39]

   • Theme: Introduction to Sunday Service and a thesis statement for the album.

   • Quote:

     Kanye West [25:37]: "The refrain on Every Hour is, 'Sing till the power of the Lord comes down.'"

   • Insight: This song sets the spiritual tone, emphasizing continuous worship as a pathway to divine power.

2. Follow God [35:00]

   • Theme: Struggle between personal vices and spiritual duty.

   • Quote:

     Kanye West [45:31]: "He talks about how he can't let his family starve."

   • Insight: Reflects the internal and external battles Kanye faces in aligning his actions with his faith.

3. Closed on Sunday [46:01]

   • Theme: Balancing work, faith, and family.

   • Quote:

     Femi Olutade [46:01]: "The idea of 'Closed on Sunday' ties back to the Sabbath—a day of rest and trust in divine provision."

   • Insight: Emphasizes the importance of rest, family protection, and resisting cultural pressures.

4. God Is

   • Theme: Questioning the use of God's name to justify actions.

   • Quote:

     Kanye West [50:07]: "People use 'On God' to swear or assert truth, but Jesus teaches not to invoke God's name casually."

   • Insight: Critiques superficial religious expressions and promotes sincere spiritual commitment.

5. Hands on Sunday [85:44]

   • Theme: Addressing judgment from the Christian community.

   • Quote:

     Femi Olutade [86:36]: "Hands on Sunday is about receiving prayer and support despite criticism."

   • Insight: Illustrates the tension between secular acceptance and religious scrutiny.

6. Jesus Is Lord [94:16]

   • Theme: Affirming Jesus' divinity and lordship.

   • Quote:

     Femi Olutade [104:39]: "Jesus is Lord ties back to Paul's letters, emphasizing Jesus' role in spiritual restoration."

   • Insight: Concludes the album's journey, reinforcing the centrality of Jesus in Kanye's faith and mission.

Metaphors and Symbolism

The album richly employs biblical metaphors:

• King Nebuchadnezzar: Represents Kanye's past pride and subsequent humility.
• Garden of Eden: Symbolizes humanity's fall from grace and the struggle to return to divine ideals.
• Water and Light: Emblems of purification, life, and divine presence.

Femi Olutade [30:54]: "Water symbolizes cleansing and renewal, while light represents the gospel's illumination."

Production and Collaboration Insights

Kanye collaborates with various writers and producers to craft a theologically profound narrative. The inclusion of guest artists like Pusha T and No Malice adds depth, juxtaposing secular conflicts with spiritual redemption.

Femi Olutade [112:35]: "Pusha T and No Malice's verses contrast, with No Malice confessing his sins, highlighting themes of repentance and transformation."

Kanye's Personal Reflections and Commitment

Throughout the episode, Kanye shares his internal struggle and commitment to his faith, acknowledging imperfections and the ongoing journey toward spiritual fulfillment.

Kanye West [104:22]: "This album is a mission, not a show. Sunday Service isn't for entertainment, it's a mission to restore and free the captives."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with an exploration of Jesus Is King as a mature, theologically rich work that transcends superficial Christian aesthetics. Femi Olutade and Kanye West affirm the album's authenticity, emphasizing its deep-rooted spiritual intent and the genuine transformation it represents in Kanye's life.

Femi Olutade [119:48]: "This album is very mature in its theological understanding, offering a profound narrative of redemption and humility."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Kanye West [02:59]: "I think this is more of a risk than anything."
• Femi Olutade [04:35]: "People bring their preconceived notions about Christianity... really is a dominant lens in how they view the album."
• Femi Olutade [08:07]: "The story of King Nebuchadnezzar is a metaphor for Kanye's pride and ego."
• Femi Olutade [17:24]: "The kingdom of God being this idea that God is king and he rules over the world and humanity."
• Kanye West [25:37]: "Sing till the power of the Lord comes down."
• Femi Olutade [46:01]: "The idea of 'Closed on Sunday' ties back to the Sabbath—a day of rest and trust in divine provision."
• Femi Olutade [50:07]: "Jesus is Lord ties back to Paul's letters, emphasizing Jesus' role in spiritual restoration."
• Femi Olutade [112:35]: "Pusha T and No Malice's verses contrast, with No Malice confessing his sins, highlighting themes of repentance and transformation."
• Femi Olutade [119:48]: "This album is very mature in its theological understanding, offering a profound narrative of redemption and humility."

Final Thoughts

Jesus Is King emerges as a pivotal work in Kanye West's discography, reflecting his profound personal transformation and commitment to Christian faith. Through rich biblical references, thematic depth, and sincere introspection, the album seeks to harmonize Kanye's artistic expression with his spiritual convictions, offering listeners a deeply contemplative experience.

Transcript

[Kanye West]

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

[Femi]

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[Kanye West]

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[Femi]

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[Kanye West]

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[Femi]

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[Kanye West]

Up to 3% daily cash back on every single purchase. That's more money for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card. Applying the wallet app on your iPhone, then start using it right away with Apple pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] all right, I'm here with my co writer, Femi. How you doing, Femi?

[Femi]

Doing pretty well. How about yourself?

[Kanye West]

I'm doing great. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about Jesus King from Kanye west released. We're recording this on Wednesday. Is it the 29th today or the 30th, I believe.

[Femi]

30Th. 30th.

[Kanye West]

Wednesday the 30th. So the, the album's been out for less than a week. So essentially I wanted to talk to you to kind of. I'm. I don't know about you, but I'm still very much formulating my thoughts about this album.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

But I wanted to use this opportunity to kind of think through out loud some of the ideas that, you know, Kanye is working with on the new album. And I thought what a better, what a perfect person to talk to would be you, since you have so much experience with Christianity and faith. And I think you're going to be able to shed some light, certainly some. Some insights that I do not have into some of the things that he's talking about. So, yeah, I'm really excited to kind of think through this out loud with you. So let's. Yeah, let's. As we work our way towards the album, I think you wanted to talk a little bit about how we approached the album. I think. Yeah, Kanye's such A complicated character, and he's so in the public consciousness. So everyone's going to kind of have. It's kind of hard to avoid having some kind of preconceived opinion about Kanye.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

Coming into this album, I know a lot of people are cynical about him now adopting the Christian faith. I've heard narratives of, like, this is just a way to get back into the public's good graces, which I don't really agree with at all. I think this is more of a risk than anything.

[Femi]

No, totally.

[Kanye West]

But then there's also the aspect of people coming into, you know, clearly he's Christian. Clearly this is his attempt at a Christian gospel album. And there's going to be certain. From some people, not all, but I would say for a lot of people, there are going to be some kind of preconceived opinions about Christianity as a faith, gospel music as a genre, and, you know, just an entire album, you know, mostly about God. And we'll get into kind of how that's reflected. But, yeah, I don't know if you wanted to speak a little bit about kind of.

[Femi]

Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's, of course, very interesting, and I think you're right. There's two, like, really big lightning rods here, one being the Persona of Kanye west and the other one being Christianity. And there are. There are loads of reasons why people have opinions on both of those things, and we definitely covered a lot of that, and a lot of that's in the public space in terms of. With Kanye and whether people's political persuasions and whether his recent actions are going to pull you in or push you out. There's all that kind of stuff. And there's race. There's other things like that that really affect how people kind of see him and whether they can identify with him or still feel like they can identify with him. So there's a lot of that. And then on the Christianity front, it's also this huge other thing that really cuts across so much. And I definitely. In the little amount that I've seen other people react to the album, you definitely do see just, like, how whatever people bring to the table in terms of their preconceived notions about Christianity, whether good or bad, really is a dominant lens in how they view the album. And so I kind of see that there's, like. I kind of see there's, like, four, like, general kind of camps I see overall, it's like you have kind of the first camp, which is, like, kind of, like, really Committed, like evangelical Christians. Evangelical, a term meaning kind of like people who are really focused on this kind of conversion story of this. Everything kind of changed based on this experience that was transcendent. That really changed my way of thinking and feeling and this kind of strong commitment to the Bible and reading that as the really source of every part of life. And so there's that group of people who I think that's one group that I think will. I think mostly actually what I've seen actually mostly will actually really like the album in itself. And often if there's anybody that dislikes it within the group, it's like they know more about Kanye and they're doubtful about them. But this album is very much written with 30 that audience in terms of. It's written in that tradition, and it's written with that audience. So the actual music and the ideas itself, I think, are actually very acceptable to that audience. And then there's, like, people who are, like, have grown up Christian. They might still be or might not be, but they're not necessarily as committed as much within this same tradition. And they probably have neutral or somewhat positive feelings about Christianity. And so they view it in this other kind of different way where they're not totally kind of committed to everything he's doing, but they can kind of appreciate it, and they can see. See that work out in some theoretical way that they could think is positive. And then there's people that might be more secular, that grew up with zero or very little exposure to Christianity. And often you find they have kind of neutral and sometimes slightly negative views where it's kind of like, okay, this is okay, or this is just for Kanye or whatever, and maybe kind of take a stance where we'll kind of wait and see or kind of confusion about how to understand this. And then I feel like you have the last group, which people that are more secular and have very strong antagonistic feelings towards Christianity for loads of reasons, often in America, that has to do with whether there's a stronger loyalty to a minority group and kind of a feeling that Christianity is either holding back or has held back or is oppressive to a particular minority group. So you have. That often is the case. And so it's kind of like it definitely just colors how people come to the album. And I've seen people just really dismiss it just because. And they're like, you know, and I'll read articles, they're like, oh, it's really hard to listen to this album. Or they'll say they have a chance to as well, and it'll be. Oh, and then they'll kind of go into the history of how they see kind of Christianity affecting their kind of community or things. So that's the thing. And I think. I don't think this, like, I think the album can be listened to any one of those groups, But I think the thing is, you always have to kind of at least, like. At least for yourself, recognize, like, where am I in this? Because it's definitely going to affect how you're listening to it. And you have to decide if you want to listen to from that vantage point or do you want to listen to it from a vantage point that might be maybe closer to what either Kanye is saying, where he's from or where he's trying to speak to. And so I think that's one thing to think about.

[Kanye West]

Okay, so let's get into the album. Yeah, we could start with. I know you wanted to touch on kind of Kanye's role as messenger, and. And I don't even know how to say his name, but King. What's the king's name?

[Femi]

King Nebuchadnezzar.

[Kanye West]

Oh, okay. I'm not gonna be able to say that.

[Femi]

Yeah, it's a very confusing name.

[Kanye West]

So this is interesting because it actually. We're gonna talk about it briefly here, but then it's gonna come up again, as on the last song, correct?

[Femi]

Yes, it is going to come. We're gonna talk about it a little later, too. Cause it's a pattern, and it actually comes up in an interview.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, exactly.

[Femi]

That he actually says directly. So basically. And so. And for context, we actually are also going to hear this. It's going to actually be a repeating story, because we're actually going to hear this, too. I think we talk about this in Loyalty. We've written these episodes actually a long time ago, so we actually mentioned this story in the damn season on Kendrick Lamar when we talk about loyalty. So there is. It was actually. My wife had actually been mentioning this when we kind of talked about the album coming out and how we had looked at this for kind of loyalty and kind of Kendrick's story. And it's interesting. We started thinking about Kanye in this way. And essentially what it is is that there's a story of this king. He's like the king of Babylon, which. This is back some hundreds of years before Jesus was born. And this kingdom is essentially an empire that is the largest empire known to humanity ever. It had kind of conquered most of the known world around them, including Israel. So they conquered them, deported them away. And then everybody's kind of serving. So they're essentially servants or slaves or people that are in serf to the king or just living outside of their land. And so there is this really, really fascinating story where basically the king has this dream about this large tree. And then essentially an angel comes down and says it's time to chop it down. And the angel chops down the tree. And so then the king is really confused about what the dream means, so he asks his people, what does this mean? All my advisors? And then nobody can tell him. And then there's this one Israelite named Daniel who basically has kind of gone into the good graces of this king. And he asked this one Israelite, and he's like, oh, he interprets it. He's like, actually, the tree is you. Like, you're the tree. And God says that you have grown too high, you've become too lofty, you think of yourself too high, even though you feel like you're protecting. And you've now created peace, you've now created all this order in the world, but God is going to come and chop you down.

[Kanye West]

And.

[Femi]

And how it's going to happen is that basically you are going to lose your mind. You're going to have the mind of an animal or a beast, and you're going to basically go out into the wilderness and be living with the animals until you recognize that God is the only one that's king above all people. And so I encourage you to actually change your ways to do what's right, to turn away from your crookedness and show mercy to the poor, and then maybe your kingdom will be extended. So that's what he says, the king, Nebuchadnezzar, he doesn't listen. And then months, like I think about a year later, there's a scene where he's walking on top of his roof on the palace, which is already a sign that he's at this height, right? He's height. He's looking down on people. And this strong imagery throughout the Bible is this humility low and like pride high. So it specifically mentions he's on the roof. And he basically says that he looks over his whole kind of like palace and his surrounding and is like, oh, is this not Babylon the great city? Babylon the great, which I myself have buil as my royal residence. And basically at the very moment he's saying this, there's this kind of word from heaven that comes down and says, now is the time where you are sovereignty, your power has been removed. And then Instantly, he goes crazy. He literally become. He has this kind of mind of an animal. He grows long fingernails. He starts running out on all fours or running out into the forest and lives among the animals and can't speak and is eating the grass like the rest of the animals. And he does this for a week. And then at the end of the week, it says he kind of looked up to heaven. And then he recognized the Most High being referenced to God. And then all of a sudden, his mind was restored. And then his servants came and found him. They brought him back. They restored him to his clothes and restored him to his power. And then it says that he actually increased in his power and his authority. And then after that, he praised, like, the Lord, Daniel's Lord, the God of Israel. And basically that this God is the most High. He's high above other people. I am not approaching him whatsoever. And that this God is the one that is able to humble those who walk in pride. And so it's this really fascinating story that kind of comes in the middle of it, and it's very metaphorical for Kanye, I feel, because Kanye is this person who was really, like, at the core of all this stuff was his pride and his ego that really was driving him for so many years and for so much of what he was doing. And. And then it was kind of like what you saw in the last couple years was this, like. That finally led him to this breaking point where he just really broke down. Everything kind of came out. His sanity, his stability, everything kind of broke down. And it was this point where he had to be humbled so low through everything and everything that was going through things not working out. His just mind and pain and issues and anxiety. And it was at the very bottom where he finally looked up and recognized, you know what? I do not have this power. I cannot even take care of my own mind, much less think that I am a God, as I would have said on Jesus. And he looks up and he finally recognized that God is the God above all people. And that essentially what he would think of is this is how his mind has been restored. And he'll talk about that in the album. And he. He feels that that's what has actually been allowing him to be able to operate in this way that is full of more wisdom and enables him to do things that are effective for himself and for other people, that he actually can bless more people and lead to more goodness and justice and mercy for the poor in this life. And so that's kind of the analogy. And it's something that is very strong within the narrative of dam itself, because as we're seeing with element and even more so with feel, is that this, like, mental pressure and this kind of. And this mindset and depression and anxiety is what Kung Fu Kenny's gonna go through as well, too. And it's why we actually use this exact same metaphor later. And this one I like, surprisingly, like in the interview with Zane Lowe, Kanye specifically mentioned this story.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And he doesn't even. He mentioned it in relationship to Yeezus. Right. Cause right after he.

[Femi]

Yes, exactly.

[Kanye West]

And that's kind of how I've learned to frame Jesus, is kind of this story of this fallen king, basically. But, yeah, it's super interesting that he mentioned this specifically. And then it is going to come up in the album, as you say, a few times. But yeah. So this idea of low or not low in terms of humility, but getting to an emotionally an emotional breaking point where ego and vice and living in this one way and being driven. I mean, Kendrick kind of refers to them as spirits, and being guided by these evil spirits ends up kind of culminating for Kanye. We can view maybe the hospital as low point. And then that kind of ties into this idea of becoming a born again Christian. From my understanding, a lot of times when people are born again, they are at a very emotionally low point in their life. Would you say that's true?

[Femi]

That is often in terms of the narratives that I think very much empower that particular kind of. A lot of the evangelical tradition, a lot of the stories and what we call testimonies. And it's very much of these kind of points, of these kind of really crucial points of. You see this a lot with people that have gone through drug addictions, that have gone through with really troubling things in their lives where they've maybe tried to rely on themselves. And it's really like you see this story happen again and again and again where that happens. And yeah, it's very much this kind of coming to the end of oneself kind of a thing. Very low points in life where it somehow really shifts how people view. And I think Kanye is really putting his story, like he's talking about his life within the context of that pattern and that kind of story.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. I mean, you can even hear that in ye. I feel like I was kind of this morning going back through his more recent work, and it's like, if you. If you want to view Kanye's life as a narrative and his albums as this larger narrative, Yay. You can definitely See, I mean, he starts the album saying he wants to kill himself, you know, and. Yeah, it's this very low point. It's written after he's been released from the hospital and kind of secluded himself in Wyoming. And, yeah, I think it all frames. I think. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of parallels with the King of Babylon story, and it definitely does kind of help frame what Jesus as king comes to mean.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So let's set up. Before we get into each song, let's set up kind of the album title and how that's gonna play out through the album.

[Femi]

Yeah, so the album title. So, like, it's. So I think we've thankfully, if you've listened to dissect thus far, you've kind of already seen us talk a little bit about this. This idea of the kingdom of God. And this idea of the kingdom of God being this idea that God is king and he rules over the world and humanity. And being living in the kingdom of God is living in this way that is subject to how God wants the world to be run in a way that is good. And so that's a lot of what it's really tied to. And the idea of the gospel and gospel itself, the word gospel literally, like gospel good spell. It's kind of a Germanic origin word. It literally just means good news. And in particular, it's like good news relating to the announcement of a new king, a king that's being there. And it's a word that was used by Caesar Augustus. He referred to his own birth as being this good news that was gonna bring peace to all of humanity. And you see that also really early on with Jesus particular ministry, where he actually reads from a prophet named Isaiah who talked about this idea of this good news that God was gonna come and be king. And he talks about the idea that the spirit of the Lord is upon me, that he's anointing me to proclaim the good news to the poor, to proclaim the release of the captives, to restore sight to the blind and to free the oppressed. And so there's idea of this king coming to free the poor, to come and come be the king over these kind of people and lead them and release their captives from slavery, from being prisoners of war, essentially. And. And you're gonna see those ideas of captivity and freedom from, like, oppression are gonna play really strong. And in terms of blessing and being the provider for the poor is just. Are really, really strong. And so that's really tied into the overarching like this. The really word Gospel itself and the idea of New Testament, the kingdom of God. But even in a larger frame, like the idea of kind of kingship and kings and ruling the world is like, probably one of the most central ideas in the entire Bible. And it just. Everything about the narrative is really running through that arc. And essentially because, like, from the very start, God is kind of depicted as the king in heaven. And then what he does in the early In. Essentially, like the first. In the first chapter, there is this. When God creates humanity. He says that he creates humanity in the image of God. And so image. Like an image, like a representation, something that can be seen because God cannot be seen. So this was like a word that, like, actually the kings of that era would use to describe themselves, saying, I'm the image of God, meaning that you need to treat me like you treat the gods. You need to come and bring me food. You need to go and, like, worship me. You should. Like, I can kill you whenever I want to. Like, that's how you treat me. And what it's saying in the story, in the biblical first chapter in Genesis, it's saying all of humanity is made in the image of God, meaning that all humans are kings and queens. And that specifically, it says that he's made in the image of God so that they can rule over the earth and subdue it to be able to allow things to flourish, to allow all the animals to have food. So basically, humans are created to be kings and queens who rule the earth on behalf of the king of kings, that is God, the Lord, he's the king above. And they're represented that are supposed to act in the way that God acts. And the whole problem that's depicted from very early on is that humans basically decide to rule by their own definition of good and evil. They decide to kind of take what they want, and they take more than they actually need to have. And then they begin to act like animals. They begin to be driven by their urges. They begin to, like, kill and destroy and to have conflict. And so they become. They kind of become horrible kings and they actually become like animals already. You should be thinking of the Nebuchadnezzar story where Nebuchadnezzar is this king and he becomes like an animal.

[Kanye West]

Sure. And I mean also, yah. And the narrative of Dam comes to mind where he makes this clear decoration declaration that I'm going to follow my intuition exactly, which leads to him pursuing sex, money, murder, and rejecting God's call. So.

[Femi]

Yeah, exactly. And you're also gonna see in loyalty Where Kendra's gonna talk about in, I think, the second part of his verse, where he's like, I'm a savage. I'm an asshole. I'm a king. Right. And it's playing in this exact same motif of the idea that humans are meant to have this high calling, to be these humble kings of the earth, and they've become like animals. And. And so basically, this whole story kind of comes and builds up to the point within the Christian tradition. It builds up to the point of where, like, no king that is kind of brought in is able to actually live up. No leader is able to do it. And nobody recognizes that God is supposed to be king and they're supposed to rule like God. And so the story of Jesus, when you get to the New Testament and to the Gospel accounts, is this idea that God himself comes down and basically, like, becomes a human who. So that he could basically enable humans to become kings like they were supposed to be all along. And that is this way of ruling in a way that is humble, that has forgiveness, that is love, that takes care of all people. Those that are good to you and those that aren't, those that are your friends, that are. Those are your enemies. And he basically restarts humanity in being. This is the way that humans are supposed to rule. And that's supposed to be what Jesus is supposed to be. And so. And it's through that that his followers are supposed to learn how they rule. And by doing that, they are able to rule like the humans were initially supposed to. They essentially recover their calling, recover the royalty in their DNA, and are able to then be able to have this likeness of God to rule in his image, to actually be good representatives that lead to the earth being good, and in that the earth is restored. And that's like essentially a narrative of the Bible. And so everything is really keyed on this idea that Jesus is king, that God is king, that Jesus is God, that it's all wrapped together, and that God, it's a humble king. So there's really two points about Jesus king, which is one, that God is a humble king that rules over all creation. And the second is that God wants to transform humans so that they can rule the world in a humble way, just like God rules.

[Kanye West]

Sure.

[Femi]

And that's essentially kind of the story, and that's really underlying everything. And what Kanye. And why I think it's important is because some people, from certain points, how Christianity is sometimes expressed in certain places and also how people perceive it accurately, sometimes maybe disaccurately. Sometimes is that the story is about how we make the world around us better and how we lead the world to being good, how we participate in making this world a place where there is life and flourishing, and that the humans and the animals and all of creation, that the land has rest, that animals have food, that humans have food, that everyone has enough of what they need. That's the central story. It's not about escaping or getting away to some other theoretical, ethereal life. It's not even necessarily really about the afterlife. Although the idea that this life doesn't end is supposed to change how we live now. But it's not about escaping or it's not about going somewhere else as much as it is bringing heaven down to earth. That's literally in the Lord's Prayer. The prayer that Jesus teaches the disciples is like, let your kingdom come. Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This idea that you're trying to make Earth be more like heaven, that you're partnering to be part of that work, in terms of it being this place where people rule in this humble way and people have what they need.

[Kanye West]

Sure. And I think that idea actually segues perfectly with the start of the album because the refrain on Every Hour is, sing till the power of the Lord comes down. And that's what we're hearing over and over and over, which I thought, you know, there's a few. There's a few things that I. I saw really fitting with Every Hour being the start of Jesus King. And that is one. It's a Sunday. Sunday Service song. And we've heard, you know, we've heard and seen Sunday Service, basically since the start of this year. And to, you know, for them, without Connie even on the song to start the album, I thought was pretty fitting, like, just in terms of optics and, like, everything kind of leading to this album. But also it was almost like a thesis statement. This line, sing till the power of the Lord comes down. It's like, totally. Connie's literally going to be singing his way to the Lord throughout this album.

[Femi]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And so. Yeah, I don't know. So what were your thoughts on Every Hour in terms of an album? Album opener?

[Femi]

Yeah, it's really brilliant, I think. Yeah, you're right. It ties. It brings us. It, like, brings us into Sunday Service. Right. It, like, opens up this window into it. And I think that's also might be part of why it, like, it starts and ends so abruptly. It's kind of like you're just kind of getting a small Window into it, and that window kind of closes. And it's this thing where, like, it's like the. Every hour, every minute. This is like a song that's supposed to be kind of going on forever.

[Kanye West]

Sure.

[Femi]

It's like this ongoing thing that doesn't fade away, but we're just kind of getting a small snippet of it is kind of what I feel. And it really brings into where I think it puts the thing that's most important for Kanye at the front, which is. I think it is the Sunday service thing. And he actually says in his interviews, particularly I think it was one with Zane Lowe, that, like, he sees music as his job.

[Kanye West]

Yep, yep.

[Femi]

And Sunday service, he really feels as like his calling, like his vehicle through which he is learning how to rule in this way that brings blessing to, like, humanity and the earth and things. And so I think it puts it up in front. I think that's, like, really, really clear. And then, yeah, the sing to the power of the Lord comes down line. We talked a little bit about DNA where Kendrick says, the reason my power is here on Earth. And we talked about the idea that that is, like. That's this reference to the Holy Spirit where Jesus talked about that he was gonna send power upon his disciples and they were gonna be his witnesses that were going to be able to bring his story to the world. And so you see that within this now is this power of being this Holy Spirit kind of coming down, that the Spirit of the Lord coming down. And. And the idea here is that being that, like, with having this. And if you've heard me talk about the idea of spirits before, how I tend to describe it within, how it functions often within these kind of works, is that a spirit is really, like. It's a shared pattern of, like, thoughts or shared pattern of. Pattern of thoughts and emotions that are shared amongst people. And they could be good or bad, but they create action. They create things that happen in the real world. And so there's this idea that, like, that this choir is singing for, like, the spirit of God to come down, to be kind of present with them, to be present with us through this album and to empower these people to live in this different way where they can kind of lead and go forth. And what's interesting about that, too, is that that pattern is actually. It's a very standard way in which the Christian services are organized. Historically, this is often what's called, like, an invocation, which literally means, like, an invocation, like an in calling, like vocation. Vocal, literally, like A calling in of the spirit, into the room, into the people, so that they can go forth and that. That what is kind of going forth will actually lead to what is good.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. So, yeah, very fitting that this. This. It starts with this. Yeah, I like that idea a lot.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

So let's. Let's move on to Salah. Yeah. I want you to talk about the title. I have no idea what the title means, and it sounds like you have way better understanding than I do. So. Yeah, let's start with the title.

[Femi]

Yeah, title. So I guess pronunciation, I'm not 100% positive, so somebody that knows Hebrew is gonna have to correct me on this. But I grew up hearing it said Selah, but I was listening to some people that spoke Hebrew and they said Selah. And so I'll go with the Selah, because I think that might be more accurate. I looked up a couple times. But yeah, so Selah. It's interesting because actually, most people, we actually don't really know what it means. It's actually. There's actually several things that are in Hebrew that are in the Old Testament that. Because the language kind of wasn't spoken after a certain period of time because of Babylon and they got deported. And also there's another Syria they actually lost. They stopped speaking the language. By the time Jesus comes around, people don't actually speak Hebrew. So a lot of things actually were lost in terms of their really critical meaning. But there's a couple theories. So this word occurs pretty much only in two books, and the majority of it is only in the Psalms. And Psalm just means, like, a sacred song. So these are songs. They're poems. They're poetry that might have been set in music previously that often would be kind of sung in, like, a synagogue or in, like, a worship gathering. That would have been, like, its original function. They're these songs of worship, of adoration, of praise, and just poetry. And that are about life and about struggle and about what God is doing in the world and what people feel at the time. And so this work occurs, like, maybe 74 times, and it's usually in between different lines and maybe different stanzas. And so there's a couple different theories. One is that it means to raise your voice to a higher register. And so this is thought of as a notation, a musical instruction that would be used when these were kind of sung within the context of a worship service. And so that would make a lot of sense, given that we've kind of opened up with this worship service with every hour in the first Track. And also that actually is going to come into the middle of Selah, and there's going to be this hallelujah chorus that's going to come in where they kind of raise their voices higher. So that would seem to have some correlation. There's a secondary meaning where it could mean always and forever, which is somewhat. Maybe close to the high register, that it's kind of this always increasing thing. But I think it also might have to deal with the idea that this every hour, every second is this ongoing ever, always and forever kind of thing that's going on. So you have all that, and it's always in the Psalms. And like, you know, he has one of kids, his recent kids, named Psalm, so it all. It all ties together there too.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. So I wonder where he would have heard. Is this word used in the Bible? Is that where he might have heard?

[Femi]

So it is. If you. Yeah, so it is written in the Bible a ton in the Psalms. Particularly in the Psalms.

[Kanye West]

Oh, got it. Okay.

[Femi]

Okay. Yeah. And the Psalms are very common. Like, there's some certain books that, like, most people maybe don't read, but the Psalms are one that pretty much everybody reads just because they're, like. They're the poetry. A lot of prayers are based on the Psalms. So usually when you kind of. If you're like a new Christian or something like that, people will often point you to maybe the Gospels, and they point you to, like, the songs. Yeah. So it's common that you would see and you maybe not know what it means, but it's just.

[Kanye West]

Sure. Okay. Okay, that makes sense then.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And then, so obviously the album title is addressed in Kanye's first line. He doesn't say Jesus is king, but he says God is king, and we.

[Femi]

The God is king. Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Um.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. I mean, for me, the way I've been thinking about this album, at least in terms of, like, structure, it seems like the first half of the album is very much Kanye coming to grips with what this new revelation is going to mean, how he's going to incorporate it into his life. And there's almost like this. Yeah, it's kind of clear in this first line. Like, he's kind of preparing for the war that. That is forthcoming now that he's, you know, a soldier of God. Yeah, yeah. Wondering your thoughts on that idea. And maybe you can give some context to this idea of God is king, we the soldier.

[Femi]

Yeah, so. Yeah, so it makes sense again. Right. So God is picked as king, and that means, like, what are. What are we doing? Right. So again, ancient. Ancient near east. You got to think, there's a king. What does he need around them? You know, a king needs. You know, king needs his power, his throne, and then he needs, like, an army to, like, defend his territory. Right? Like, that's the image. Right. That's the metaphor. And then we'll kind of get to what it means that he says God is king here rather than Jesus is king, because it actually comes down later when he later says Jesus is Lord, and they're gonna tie it back together, but we'll get to that later. So that's kind of the image, but when he says we are the soldiers. So this is what I would say is I think even from the start, he's already fully in. There's no kind of transition. He's fully in to committed to this kind of faith, to what's kind of going on. What I kind of think about how the narrative goes. There's definitely the split, and the split definitely happens at, like, everything we need. Everything we need. Everything we need is definitely the turning point. And the first half is different than the second half. And I'll talk about other things. Why. But I do think that there is a certain amount. And he struggles, I think, on the second half as well, but it's different than the first half. And we'll kind of get to kind of why that is.

[Kanye West]

But.

[Femi]

But I think there's these residual things that he's gonna be dealing with that you guys actually gonna see pretty quickly on this song and that are gonna kind of carry, I think, a lot through the first half. But the idea that we are soldiers is a very clear thematic tie to a certain set of ideas in particular scriptures. And so what he is referring to here is what is particularly within the evangelical tradition is referred to as spiritual warfare. So we already talked about spirits being the idea of patterns, of shared patterns of thoughts or ideas. So there are these thoughts that there is this idea or this concept that in the world, for all people, really, and maybe it's supposed to be. Followers of Jesus recognize this, but it's actually true of all people, is that essentially there is this kind of battle between good and evil. You see this in Kendrick when he depicts this in Tip of a Butterfly pretty clearly, right? With Lucy, Lucifer, and Jesus, it's that. That's Kendrick's way of depicting this. And then here, Kanye is basically directly addressing that. And so where a lot of this comes from, there's two particular passages. There's one in, like, 2 Corinthians 10 where it talks about the idea that we don't walk in, like, the flesh and like the natural way, the animal way of doing things, but our weapons of warfare are strong for pulling down strongholds. And then it says we cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and then we bring every thought into captivity to obedience of Christ. So it's this idea. It's exactly what I've been saying. It's the idea of thoughts, of arguments, high things, again, pride, high things that have exalted themselves, again, pride against the knowledge of God. And so it's this idea of thoughts and patterns of thought in one's own self, maybe in the culture, but often in oneself, that are exalting themselves and that need to actually be made obedient, that are actually leading to death and destruction and need to be kind of like. Like brought into control. And then the other passage that is really closely tied to this is it's in Ephesians. And he's actually going to mention the book of Ephesians later, I think, in Hands.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, Hands On. It's one of the last songs.

[Femi]

Yeah, Hands On. Yeah, he mentioned it there and it ties together. But basically there is what's this concept of what's called the armor of God. And it is this kind of metaphor about how these different attributes of God slash, the attributes of that are kind of like fruits or kind of attributes that are growing in the life of a follower of Jesus, are kind of more part of it. And they are depicted as kind of an armor and like a Roman soldier that they would be wearing. And so there's this thing in Ephesians 6, the last chapter of Ephesians, where it talks about clothe yourself in the full armor of God. And it kind of goes on to say that we don't struggle against flesh and blood, so we're not fighting against other humans. This is a point that you're going to see Kendrick make too, as well, in talking about, like, who is overcoming. And it really gets salient later on in later part of dam. And so we don't struggle against humans against flesh and blood, but against the powers and the dark forces of the world and against spiritual forces in the heavens. And then it says, so then stand. And then fasten your belt of truth around your waist, the breastplate of righteousness. Have your feet fitted with a preparation that comes from the gospel, from the gospel, from the good news of peace. And then take up the shield of faith so you can protect yourself against the Arrows of the evil one, and then put on the helmet of salvation and take up the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. So it's straight describing depicting these followers of Jesus as soldiers that are fighting against these spiritual force and thoughts of ideas by the attributes which are supposed to grow with them that are given by God.

[Kanye West]

Sure. And, yeah, I mean, it's. You know, I think the natural tendency is. Yeah, it's sounds confrontational, but I would think that part of the idea, and maybe a lot of it is fighting against oneself and the fighting.

[Femi]

Exactly.

[Kanye West]

Fighting against those spirits within your own body and your own mind. And I think Kanye definitely is going to display some of that internal battle. He definitely externalizes it, too. I would say even more so in his interviews than in the music. But I think in the music, there's gonna be a nice balance of external battles and internal battles.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And I think. Yeah. So even just starting the album in that way really frames this battle he's about to kind of embark on.

[Femi]

Yeah. Yeah. Which I'll point out two things. I mean, one is that the majority of things that are depicted are all defensive pieces. What do you mean, the majority of them? It's all about this idea of God being our protection.

[Kanye West]

Oh, got it. Oh, got it.

[Femi]

Literally, the emphasis, right. Because it's not like a whole bunch of different weapons. It's actually. The emphasis is actually on the protective nature that. Because. And you're see this later because he talks about that Jesus won the victory. So it's not even us, like the humans that are fighting.

[Kanye West]

Got it.

[Femi]

It's that Jesus is actually the one that has already fought and won, and that those that are following him are just defending and protecting themselves and allowing God to be their protection in this ongoing battle that is happening. And that's really happening inside of them. And this is what you're gonna say with Kendrick, particularly toward the end when he gets to Duckworth. It's like, I used to think that it was me versus the world until I found out that it's me versus me.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, yeah, Right.

[Femi]

Same idea here. And so I think some people might talk about, oh, this is very militaristic. This is like they're kind of going back and they're gonna threaten us or these other people. That's not the idea that's being depicted here. And you're gonna see that come up, because even any time where you see conflict with Kanye and other people, he's gonna depict it in a very negative way. Like, that's not what he's supposed to be doing sure. What is with other people. And he really turns it more in on himself and trying to turn into what is going to lead to life and blessings for myself and others.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. So is there anything before we move on? I know there's a lot to cover in this song, but we don't have all day, so is there anything else you think is critical to point out before we move on to the next song?

[Femi]

Yeah, I'll just hit them up really quickly. I think this song just generally opens up addresses like, a lot of really motifs or themes that kind of are really present that are gonna be present throughout the album. One is the idea of light. So he actually says, like, ultra beam out the solar, which is of course a reference to ultra light beam from Life of Pablo. And it introduces the theme of light, which is one of the ways that God is describing that Jesus described as the light from heaven. There's even actually like a part in one John where it describes the gospel. This is like the message of the gospel, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. So light is even itself like this metaphor. This like itself a metaphor for the gospel. So that's in there. There's the idea of water. That's also a really strong motif that's gonna run through the entire album. There's actually a song called Water. And how he introduces it first is the idea of him comparing himself to Noah, which is a figure in Genesis who basically saves his family and all of creation, including all the animals, by following God's commandments. When there's a flood that comes to, that goddess sends to basically wash away kind of the wickedness of the world and these people that are refusing and are destroying the earth. And so this water is first introduced in this destructive way. And you're gonna see later that the characters of water change and they also get cleansed because it's also in a cleansing way, because he talks about Jesus did the laundry. So both this idea of water cleansing and destroying what is old and what is actually causing damage is also there. So that's all there. There's this concept of freedom from slavery. He talks about who the son has set free was free. Indeed. There's a conversation he has with some leaders where he tells them that they need to become free. And they're like, we've never been slaves anywhere. And it's ironic because they come from a people that were slaves in Egypt, but they've kind of forgotten this. And so then he's like, oh, no, anyone who practices sin. Anyone who practices wickedness is a slave to wickedness. Is a slave to sin. And so there's this idea that the slavery that he's talking about and that he's. That's also going to be a large theme throughout the album is first introduced here as something that is due to the tendencies. The evil. The evil, the wickedness. And that, again, is something in the gospel is. Again, the freedom from captives is an essential part of the gospel. And so that's really well tied in there. So I think those are some of the big things. And then the last thing I'll mention is that there is this residual pride that you see in here. And, like, he'll talk about the idea where when he gets to the gates, like, he's gonna yell at the. No need to peek over. He's gonna yell at the chauffeur. I'm not mean. I'm just being focused. And so you might think that maybe it's positive or that's just him being aggressive and being a soldier, but no, that's actually not what's going on. It's actually, I think, trying to depict him as being this residual pride that you're actually gonna see a lot in the first half. And I think that's a lot of what actually you see get washed away.

[Kanye West]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Femi]

And through the middle of the album.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And that's kind of what I was alluding to between the division of the two halves. It's like this. I think cleansing is probably a really great way to frame that idea of. Yeah, we are going to see these. I think this actually leads right into Follow God.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

It's. You know, I think maybe more than all, any song, this actually does address the residual pride and. And really hones in on this.

[Femi]

The conflict mostly, clearly.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, most clearly. Mostly, I guess, with his father and how, like.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

You know, there's a bit of conflict that he addresses several times. That's like the only refrain in this album or in this.

[Femi]

Really clear. Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So. Yeah, so let's jump into Follow God.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And again, like, even in the semantics of the title, you know, it's. It's a. It's Follow God. Like, it's almost like he's talking to himself. It's. It's the direction he is going and getting to. And then that also is reflected in the sample, which is, father, I stretch my hand to you. There's this idea of kind of following, of reaching and trying to get somewhere.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And that language, that particular. Yeah. So that's a gospel song. I think he used that on, like, Pablo this term. Father, stretch my hands. So it actually. The idea of stretching one's hands is actually depicted often, particularly in the psalms. It's depicted as an indication that someone is seeking help from a deity. So it is often the person that's writing the psalm, the kind of poem will depict themselves as like, I'm stretching my hands to God, like, looking for help. It's a sign of help. And there's some times where the poet will like, or the prophet will, like, critique the Israelites for reaching their hands out to, like, the deities of other nations. And so it's all about reaching out to his father looking for help. That's what it is. And it's interesting because it kind of contrasts with his earthly father, who kind of is like, rather, while God is this person that he's helping trying to reach to, his earthly father is kind of like, seems to be intentionally pushing his buttons because he knows what's kind of going on and he kind of gets him and he kind of draws him out. And maybe there's an implied that he doesn't trust that he's fully changed or something, but he kind of pushes him out and then kind of criticize him like, oh, you're not acting Christ, like. And like, yeah. Then even that. That critique itself is like, tying back to this idea that humans are supposed to be made in the image and likeness of God and thus, like humans. And then within the language of the New Testament, human, like the follower Jesus, are supposed to be like Jesus again. They're supposed to become like God, become representative. Like, Jesus is representative. So Kanye is kind of his father's kind of pointing this out that, oh, you're not being a good representative of Jesus. And then he also kind of like, somewhat points out that, like, nobody really tells him whenever he actually is behaving more like Christ. And Christ, I would say the Christ itself. The meaning of the word Christ is like anointed one, which refers to the idea of kind of like oil. That's a ritual that was used to select a king. So a king, that's how it just means anointed one. So it means somebody that's been selected and giving this oil as designated as a person who the spirit of God is going to be on so that they can be king and lead the world. So it's really saying that you're not being a true person that has been annoyed you're not being a good king is what he's Saying essentially, sure.

[Kanye West]

And that kind of falls into this kind of first half thematic element. And through line of not quite being there, but stretching his hand asking, exactly.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally.

[Kanye West]

So let's go on to Closed on Sunday. This is, you know, there's a lot going to be on in this song, but we can't spend a crazy amount of time on each song. So I guess I'm interested to hear what are kind of some of the bullet point things that are addressed in your eyes in this song.

[Femi]

So, yeah, so there's a couple things. So one, I think there's a couple things. One is the idea of needs, which has we mentioned that it's one of the core themes. It's brought in in every hour and it's actually central. And why it is is because the idea of Closed on Sunday is it comes from this longer tradition within Judaism, within the ancient Israelite kind of laws and practices that you're supposed to have a Shabbat, a Sabbath, a day of rest where everyone, animals, humans, everything rest. And the idea is that even in this agricultural society that was in ancient Israel, everything had to rest because that's how you bring justice and goodness to the world. You can't just use all the resources on the world. But it's also challenging because if you don't work that day, it means that you're less productive. And so it means that you have to trust God to be. To allow everything to be productive in six days and not work on the seventh day, even when you could. So it's this idea of trying to do less and trusting that what you're gonna do and what God can provide for you in six days is enough. So again, it actually ties right back to like, we need you. The idea of needs is really, really is really strong there. And it's him exercising and walking in that, leaning and relying on this truth and this belief that that actually will work out. So I think that's one really big overarching thing. There is again the concern of protecting his family. He talks about, when you have daughters, keep them safe, watch out for vipers. This actually goes back to ye with violent crimes and him talking about when you have daughters. He realized that women are something to nurture, not something to conquer. Other than his mental health, I think having a daughter has probably been one of the biggest other things that changed the way he looks at things. So that's there. Plus with vipers, that's also keying back to the Garden of Eden story with the snake that deceives the woman Again, woman and his daughter and deceives her by trying to say that this fruit will give her wisdom, Wisdom so that she can decide good and evil for herself. And so that's why he used the word indoctrinate. This idea of wisdom that's coming from outside of what is good and what is enough. And that's outside of what we have. Cause we already have the wisdom that we need. So you have that. You have the no living for the culture word. Nobody's slave. Again, this idea of slavery, captivity that he's addressing throughout the entire album, it's something that he's talked about outside of this publicly and in the interviews of his belief that the culture is this force that has been created on top of us and is controlling us and getting us to do things. And when you see this, the idea of slavery and things like that, it's this thing that people need to be kind of freed from. Because I think it's the same way that Kenny, that Kendrick might talk about sex, money, murder. These are the breaks, right? The idea that these are the breaks very closely tied to hip hop culture. The breaks, Curtis, Blow, sex and money, Myrna. These are the things that are embedded in the culture.

[Kanye West]

Even like the song Lust is, you know, pretty much kind of embodies that. Those kind of the kind of commands of culture.

[Femi]

The Cole that the idea of slavery becomes so salient in Lust. And we're going to get there in the podcast, and that's really, really strong there. The idea that people have become slave. And the idea that you'll see in Lust, that there is this idea of like a concert and a show and experience and is depicting the culture and this expression of the culture as being something that is. That is creating a slave and getting Kendrick to create other slaves.

[Kanye West]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

All right, so let's move on to. On. God. I would say this one. This one challenges me the most, at least at this moment.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And I think. Well, I would say specifically the lines about him charging high prices.

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kanye West]

And I haven't really wrapped my mind around that and what it means to the. If it does apply kind of to the character or the journey here, or if it is kind of him talking more transparently about. He's obviously talking about his clothes and maybe even the Sunday service merch, because that was kind of a controversial topic for some. So. Yeah, I guess. Well, before we get there, that's kind of towards the end of the song. Neil, why don't we briefly talk. You could talk a little bit about Your thoughts on God?

[Femi]

Yeah, so it's interesting. So on God, the way he normally uses it and just generally the way this phrase is normally used within urban cultures is on God is kind of a way to, like, swear or to make, like, to, like, basically say, I'm, like, telling the truth. Like, so it's something that you would. To say on something is to say.

[Kanye West]

Like, oh, my grandma's grave, or whatever.

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I put that on my grandma's garret. I put that on Mama, I put that on Piru, I put that on Crips, like, the different gangs. I put that on God. So God, the ultimate thing, like, it's trying to. So what's interesting about that? Right? It's Kanye. He's making his own statement, and he's using God to try to back up his own statement. Yeah, right. So that's, like, one, I think, layer of it. And what's actually interesting about that is in, like, Jesus teaching of the kingdom of God, this is specifically talked about, where it says, basically, don't swear by heaven, don't swear by God, don't swear by anything, but let your yes be yes and your no be no. Don't try to bring God into validating your own thing that you're trying to say for yourself.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, interesting.

[Femi]

And so it's very. Yeah, it's very interesting. So there is this kind of thing where it's actually tied into, like, a little bit, I think, of pride in terms of, like, him trying to elevate his own words. By using God to elevate his own words.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, and that's maybe. And that's maybe what I have a. I had a kind of intuitive resistance against. And that. And that's a lot of the things that I found kind of, I don't know, problematics. The right word. But, like, in his interviews, like, you know, he's just. He said, like, the Trump hat was God's joke on liberals. And I'm just like. I don't.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Really? Like, is that how you're going to frame that? Like, it just seemed like there's some moments in which he was using God to justify some things that I just thought were a little bit off. Um, and I felt like that was kind of here in the lines I talked about, about him, you know, charging and saying that he can't let his family starve, and that's why he goes hard, which, I don't know, just didn't really sit with me correctly.

[Femi]

Yeah. I don't think it's supposed to yeah.

[Kanye West]

And that's kind of where I'm, like, trying to reserve judgment. And, like, Kanye does this a lot. Where he. You know, Kendrick does this, too, where he expresses something that is meant to sound. It's meant to be flawed and show the character flawed within him, in himself.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally. I think this is definitely one that. And it's something that you'll hear in his interviews, but I think that he recognizes it. But he knows that he's always still falling prey to this same pattern. So the line actually starts with, like, he talks about the idea that they want 50 plus I tithe, which is basically a tithe is basically the practice of kind of giving 10% of one's kind of earnings to the church or some kind of religious organization. And so he's basically saying that I'm having to give over, and he's kind of complaining about it. Right. So it's really interesting that he's trying to talk about how much he's tithing, which is supposed to be something he's like. There's actually also talk in Jesus teaching on the kingdom of God of not letting anybody know what you're giving. So this idea that he's already talking, like, trying to make a deal about what he's giving and the fact that he's tithing and trying to make us feel sympathy for him, that he's having to get taxed and tithe so much. And so there's that part of it. And then he uses that to justify why he's charging more money. But what's interesting about that, right, is that he then says. He's like. He said, I can't let my family starve.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. Rather than kind of giving that to God. Is that what you mean?

[Femi]

It's not on God. It's on Kanye. That's the whole irony of the song, right, is that he's supposed to put these things on God, and he's actually putting it on himself.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

And it ties into this whole thing of needs, and, like, he's not able to trust, and so he has to go hard, which, as you're gonna see, is the opposite of water.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

Which is a song that comes directly after everything.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. I was gonna say we should probably jump into. Cause. Yeah. Now that I kind of have a better understanding of what this might mean, it makes sense that this would be right before.

[Femi]

Right before everything.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. Everything we need becomes this kind of pivotal moment.

[Femi]

Totally.

[Kanye West]

Where I'll let you. You talk through this. But, like, the first verse.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Kanye is still kind of focusing on himself.

[Femi]

Yeah. So, yeah, this is. This is. This is the pivotal. This is a pivotal moment we should address.

[Kanye West]

Like, it literally, the. The refrain is, switch your attitude. Like, he says that over and over and over. So it's like a very clear signal that this is the switch.

[Femi]

Totally. So this is a really amazingly designed song. It's super. It's really. It's genius how it's designed. So basically, it starts off with him saying, with, I think Ty$sign singing, we began after the storm inside, which is back to Noah. This idea of storm and cleansing and destruction of what is old and what isn't working, what's leading to destruction. The idea of laying the land, like, causing. Causing is actually what God says to Noah afterwards. Go and multiply God. Go rule the earth, make it produce. Right. And the idea of light. That light kind of. This is a new day. This is like a new start that happens after the storm kind of washes and cleanses and destroys what's kind of like not working. Right. So you have all that. And then Kanye comes in and switch your attitude. Which switch all the way back to the last thing he said was morning light. And then he says, switch your attitude. It's like a light switch, right. It's like things are changing. We're going from dark to light. And also, you talk about, like, a light switch went off. Right. That there's a certain realization that's happening in the song. Right. And it's all about switching. It's all about turning. And this is the switch point. And as you know, this is the middle track of the album, Right. This is like. There's 11 tracks. This is like, what track number six, right. So it's like. It falls exactly in the middle.

[Kanye West]

Sure.

[Femi]

And this is like this. This is the switch point. And the switch point itself even falls in between the two verses.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And I was gonna say. And what comes right after is water and this act of cleansing, like on water, clean us like the rain and spring. Take the chlorine out the conversation or out conversation.

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we'll get the. Out of the first.

[Kanye West]

But. Yeah, go ahead.

[Femi]

Yeah, no, but it's good to. You have to kind of keep going back. Going back and forth. But, yeah, it's really cool. So. So he's like, switch your switch attitude. And he put up. So he. He says, like this. Get your. Go ahead. Level up yourself. This. That different latitude. Level up yourself. Exalt yourself. Lift yourself up. Right?

[Kanye West]

Yeah. Literally the definition of pride.

[Femi]

It's Literally. Exactly. Literally. The definition of pride is lifting oneself up. And then there's this kind of like, life's too short. Go spoil yourself. Feel that. Feel. Enjoy yourself, right?

[Kanye West]

Kung Fu Kenny.

[Femi]

You know it's Kung Fu Kenny, right? Because we have everything we need, right? It's like this thing of, like, everything we need. It's this idea of like, oh, we've made it. Now I'm gonna stunt. Now I'm gonna show off. Now I'm gonna live for myself. I'm just gonna bask in it. I'm just gonna enjoy. Cause we have everything that we need. It's what you say, what you heard at the beginning of Tim Pit Butterfly, too, where he's like, when I get signed home. Yeah.

[Kanye West]

I'm act a fool.

[Femi]

Right, Right. Same idea, right? It's the idea that what do we do with prosperity? And this idea that when he has everything he needs, he's like, now I just can enjoy myself. And until you use it, you get tired of it, and you're like, I don't have enough. And then you. And then you're like, okay, now I have everything you need. Let me enjoy myself again. It's. It's all this commentary of this kind of cycle of that. And I think goes off to this idea of what he said in the last track, right? Of like, I can't let my family starve. Like, he's, like, always living. Like, I need to get more and more and more because I need to protect myself, which means I need to get more money, right? I need to get more. Like, it's. Again, it's like. Like it goes back to even, like. Yeah. Where Ken. Where Kenny's like. Like, I know he walks the earth, but there's money to get.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, exactly. Right?

[Femi]

All of that. And so I think it's that. And what's interesting, too, is it says, switch your. Switch your attitude. It's almost like it's a message that's coming to him.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

Like, it's a message that's coming to him. It's something that's being spoken, like, over him. Almost like it's like I would throw out. I'm gonna guess it's actually. It's kind of like. It's like a serpent kind of thing. It's like a snake kind of move of like there is this message. There's this idea that's getting him not to trust that he has everything that he. Or that. Or that what he has is, like, is for himself, right? And so I think that's so that's kind of the first verse, and that's how you initially interpret the idea of everything we need. This is Kanye basking in him having so much. Right. And so you have that, and then it kind of goes into that. We began after the storm, inside this again, repeating this idea of, like, this kind of cycle. It's like almost like a second cycle wash or something like that. And then he says, switch my. Switch my attitude.

[Kanye West]

Oh, yeah. He's like, my. I didn't notice that. Yeah.

[Femi]

Yes, exactly. Right? And then he's like, I'm radical. There's this change that's happening. I'm so radical. These people are mad. And this is what for who it matters to. So he kind of sets everything up, and then he's like, this line is amazing. I think he says, what if Eve made apple juice? You go and do what Adam do or say, baby, let's put this back on the tree. And then they bring back the hook, which Ty Dola sang, singing. Cause we have everything we need Ooh, ooh ooh, ooh so it's like, one, I think. I think I texted you when I heard this live, and I was like, this is the best. This is the best line.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, we texted about it on the.

[Femi]

Subway, I think, right away. Yeah, I was on the subway. And one. It's funny. Some people think it's, like, corny, or they try to dismiss it. They're like, oh, this is happening.

[Kanye West]

But mine wasn't. Honestly, my first impression before I even thought about the meaning was just like, it was such a Kanye filtration of this idea. Like, just humorous and just kind of cute or something. But, yeah, I'll let you explain your interpretation of it.

[Femi]

Okay. Yeah. So, like, I think this is, like, one of the most compact. Like, it's a brilliant, brilliant line.

[Kanye West]

So what he's depicting here is just to frame it. This is his last words on the song. Correct.

[Femi]

These are the last words of his song. Right? Yeah. So. And this is really where the switch. Where it's clear the switch happens. So this goes back to the story of the Garden of eden in Genesis 2 and 3, which is these kind of first two prototypical humans. One is named. The male is named Adam, and the female is named Eve later. So what's interesting is their names. So Adam means humanity, and Eve means life.

[Kanye West]

We talk about this on.

[Femi]

I think we talk about this in. We talked about it in. Yah. About walking the Earth. So there are these representative figures that really represent something more than just themselves. And in this kind of narrative, God plants this, the Garden of Eden. Eden means delight. So it's this place where there is delight, where there's, like, goodness things are really good. And then on top of that, it specifically says that God, like, plants all of these trees, all kinds of these trees that are pleasing, that are good, that are good for food and are delightful to the eyes. Like, it's. Like, it's Eden. It's delightful. Everything's delightful. These trees are delightful in the eyes. And then what happens is this snake comes over at some point. He tells basically, oh, so before that, he tells them, like, hey, look, there's this tree in the middle. Like, you can eat all these. I've got all these good trees for you everywhere. But there's this one tree, it's called, like, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. And it's in the middle of the Garden of Eden. And do not eat this fruit, because if you eat it, it's gonna kill you and it's gonna lead to your death. And so he tells that to them, or at least he tells that to humanity. Adam tells to humanity. And then the next. Basically, the next kind of scene or scene after, kind of like Eve is kind of created. There's a scene where this snake figure comes up and talks to Eve, the woman, and says, hey, God didn't really say that you're not gonna really die. God just knows that if you eat of this fruit, you're going to. It'll make you wise and you'll be able to be like God and know good from evil, which is, again, playing on things, because humans are created in the image and likeness of God. They're already like God, but. But somehow she's forgotten that. And so then Eve looks at this tree and then says, oh. And she looked at it and saw that it was good for food. And the delightful to the eyes and the irony, of course, is that all the other trees are good for food and delightful to the eyes. They already have everything they need. But it's this one that Eve wants to take. And so she takes it, and it says immediately after she ate it. And then she gave it to her husband Adam. Humanity, who was with her, who was there the whole time, and he ate it. So there's kind of immediate things, and that's the story. And then things kind of devolve around there. They kind of feel shame. Like, there's destruction. They actually have to get eggs out from the garden, like, and the world kind of decays after that. But what Kanye does here is he takes that narrative and he kind of, like, adds extra twist to it where he says, what if Eve made apple juice? So it goes from being this automatic thing to this point where, like, this apple is taken Eve, it's put into a blender, it's made juice, and it's kind of handed. There's this kind of process between it kind of being taken down and kind of being handed to the person. And then it's kind of like the natural thing is it's made apple juice. You might as well drink it. But then it's kind of like he has this realization. Cause he was there the whole time, and all of a sudden, he has a realization, wait, we probably shouldn't be doing this. Let's go put this back on the tree. And of course, the irony is you cannot put juice back on a tree. It's already enough if, like. If it was, like, an apple itself. And maybe you can tape it or something like that, but you can't just put juice back on a tree. It's literally impossible. And it is this huge commentary of what happens when. How do we reverse what has already been happened in our society, in our world, in our own lives. There's a story actually, in the Gospels where Jesus talks about the idea that for a rich man, it's as easy to enter the kingdom of God as it is to enter a camel, to enter the eye of a needle, meaning it's impossible. And then God says, oh, it's like, yeah, with humans, this is impossible, but God, all things are possible. So there's this idea that this is an impossible thing to undo, this choice to take the idea, deciding a good and evil for ourselves. And in this, you hear this impossibility to reverse what has been done. And in this, you hear Kanye's like, he's created all of this. He's made all this music that kind of maybe led certain people to act in certain ways, and now he actually just agrees with. He's led himself to his own kind of, like, destruction and his own kind of, like, addictions. Like, there was that conversation that, like, argument him and Kim had about her dressing too sexy and kind of like. And she being like you. Like, this is part of, like, you and part of your decision, even how you dressed our daughter. And it's kind of like, he's done this. He's like, how do you undo this? Right? Yeah, he's like. He's like, more than that. He's created the culture.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, he is cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

He is like, he's like. He's like, the. The culture's been riding on him. He's helped create this, and he's taken it to where it's gonna go. And now he recognizes, like, he's enslaved to this culture. Like, in the interviews, he talks about the idea that he used to think he was God of culture, and now he realized that culture was his God, that he was serving culture, and that now he's like, how do I undo all of this? And so all of that is this metaphor of, like, how do you put apple juice back on an apple tree? It's just. It's impossible. And so there is this only hope that only by God can it be done. And it's this. This thing, and it's this idea, right? There's Adam and Eve, humanity and life. And it's this idea that each of us humans, like. Each of our humans, like, life hands us a glass of apple juice.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And it's this idea that it's exactly DNA. It's the idea of. He frames it as inherited DNA.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

It's our inheritance of culture, our inheritance of biological, environmental, upbringing, whatever. This. Now we're framing it as apple juice, but it's the same thing. It's like we are born in these conditions of life, and what are we gonna do, you know?

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah, Yep. Totally. That's it. And Connie is now, at this point, is like, I don't know what I can do, but I can at least, like, have this attitude of, like, let's do something about this. Like, let's try to put this back on the tree. And, like, that's the change. That's the change that happens.

[Kanye West]

And then this leads right into water, which addresses this. I mean, it really addresses kind of. Well, it's like an asking. It's kind of goes back to stretching one's hand out. Water. Again, the refrain. One of the refrains is cleanness, like the rain in spring. Take the chlorine out of our conversation. And I think that's, like, this is going to be. And, like, there's a shift in, like. Well, an attitude in where I feel like he becomes more humble in his asking almost.

[Femi]

Yeah, too. Yeah, definitely.

[Kanye West]

And there's more of like a. A service or a servant kind of.

[Femi]

Like.

[Kanye West]

Like, the tone shift. Even just the way the lyrics are written become more.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

I don't know if soft is the right word, but they're just more.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

I don't know what the right word is here, but they're like pliable or something like that.

[Femi]

I think that's what I would describe with water. It's got. I mean, that's water. Because the water can be. Can take form and take mold. And it's like, he's not, like, demanding. He's not like this rigid thing. He's like. He's like. He's becoming to learn how to flow. And I think it goes in the.

[Kanye West]

Idea of, like, we are giving up. Giving up our grasp and our hold and our control, our kind of semblance of control in our own life, and then giving that over to God and then just being water in which that moves fluidly in the direction that God pushes them.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally. And the idea that we are water, that we become this cleansing force, that we become this thing that sustains, that cleanses, that allows new birth, that allows things to be clean. And this is actually all taken directly from the Gospel of John in John 4. And there's this conversation about where this woman who's had, like, five husbands, asks Jesus for water. And he's like, I can give you living water, and if you drink it, then it'll turn you into a fountain that gushes out more living life.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, we talk about it.

[Femi]

A lot of people can drink that.

[Kanye West]

A lot in Season five.

[Femi]

Exactly. Yeah. Both in Good Kid, Mad City in I'm Dying of Thirst section of Sing About Me, I'm Dying Thirst. And it comes up very directly on lust as well, too. But it's that. It's this idea of becoming water, becoming these fountains that sustain and that through love, becoming these life sources for other people and that become heal and become satisfied. And after all, water is what we need. It's like one of the most essential things.

[Kanye West]

And we are whatever all life needs. I forgot the percentage of we are.

[Femi]

I think it's like 60% or something like that, I think is what it is. And then 75% of, I guess, the land. It's this idea that you need water to have life. The idea of, like, we have everything I need the fact that it starts with water, because that's what makes Earth Earth, that we have water, that we can have life. And it's again, this image that when Kanye realizes that he needs to put the apertures back on the tree, it's when he, like, is able to. To bask in enjoying that we actually have been giving everything we need. We've been given water. We have what it takes to create life in this world and to create flourishing.

[Kanye West]

Sure. And, yeah, it's very fitting. His only verse, I guess you would call It. A verse.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Is, I would say, the most concise declaration of. Well, I mean, it's a litany that starts with Jesus and him asking very humbly for Jesus to provide water, but also wealth keeping us safe. And really just. It's like the first moment that things. I feel like things really crystallize.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So, yeah, I mean, the idea. This idea of litany was really interesting and I guess we haven't got to it on the season yet for what people have heard, but it's kind of fitting because Feel is our next episode that comes out next week.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Which is a litany. And we're going to go. We're going to talk about, you know, kind of the historical roots of a litany and how they kind of derived from religious practices. But. Yeah. I mean, before we. Maybe we can leave that conversation for the episode, but is there anything about water you wanted to say before we move on to God is not too much.

[Femi]

I think you covered it. I'll just kind of add to that. Yeah. Like, I think you covered the really good lines like that. Like, that's what I was going to highlight too, that he gives us wealth. Heaps of safe. The idea that, like, remember before, at the end of Angadi's, like, I can't let my family start. I go hard. And now he's water, he's soft, he's pliable. And like, he just humbly asked Jesus, Jesus, give us wealth and then give us grace. Right. That they're tied together in what Jesus kind of gives us.

[Kanye West]

Keep us safe. And that Jesus ties back into, like, the idea of the soldier and. Yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

And keep us safe. And that not just that he keeps us safe, but he is our safe. He's where we put our wealth.

[Kanye West]

Oh, yeah. Interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah.

[Femi]

Which isn't just money. It's this idea. Yeah. And it ties into Jesus teaching of, like, follow like those that are blessed in the kingdom of God. They live in this way that are persecuted, that do things, things that forgive their enemies. They have treasures in heaven, treasures that are kept safe, that are with me, that I protect, that are more than the money, than the possessions that you can have on earth, that are going to rot and decay. Jesus becomes our safe, that holds everything that is precious and that gives us the ability to live and sustain us.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And we just finished the episode on God. On God, the song from Dam, which basically is the same idea expressed differently, of course. But he does talk about.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

I mean, they call. I don't Want to give too much away. But, you know, like, the. Really. The culmination of that song and really the album is that last line where he's. Where Kendrick says, my heart is rich, my heart is famous. And exactly this idea of rather than externalizing wealth and looking for kind of material possessions and ex. You know, just external manifestations of what he feels is success or wealth and coming to this realization that his heart is enough because his heart is now with God and kind of giving that over to God. So, yeah, let's move into God is. Which is one of my favorite songs on the album.

[Femi]

Yeah, this.

[Kanye West]

This track, it's really, really powerful. Just I can hear in his voice. It's just so. I feel just honest. I just like. I just feel something very strong when I. Yeah, it's. It's the one. It's the song that really caught my attention on my first listen. It's the one that always kind of continues to catch my attention, you know, subsequent listens. So, yeah, you have. In our notes, this is the emotional centerpiece of the album. I would definitely agree. So, yeah, so, yeah, let's get into kind of the heart of the message here. What's the first thing that comes to mind for you?

[Femi]

There's so much about this. I mean, this is essentially kind of Kanye's within the tradition, his testimony, essentially kind of him really just directly telling us what God has done in his life is essentially what it is as. And in this way of saying that this is what he wants to do, not just for me, but more people and how he's using me in these ways to create goodness in the world. Right. So there's all of that. That's like the overarching thing. It starts with a sample of a gospel song which is also called God Is. I think it's a song by James Cleveland. And again, light in Darkness, going all the way back to the theme of light, the idea that this is the gospel, that God is light and him is no darkness. And it talks about that. It talks about that God being my all in all again, he's everything I need. It says I'll never turn back. This idea that this is supposed to be, along with the testimony, this idea that, like, as we were debating, is this going to be temporary or not? Within the song itself, it's like, I'm not turning back. I've committed to this way of living, even though I'm going to struggle, even though I'm, like, not going to always follow God and be Christ. Like, I'm not Turning back. It's kind of the kind of commitment statement that it's saying here. So that's there really early on. He talks about worship Christ with the best of your portions. And that's the thing about actually offerings. This is kind of language that's taken from the Torah about giving up your kind of best offerings, your first fruits, the things that you kind of get first. Kind of like somewhat similar to giving up the Shabbat, your day of the week, to kind of give that up and to trust God that he will bless you with the rest. But then you need to learn to let go and not take everything. And it's this idea again, it ties back to everything about what we need. And now he's gone all the way from being like. Like, I can't let my family starve. Like, I have to go hard to. Like, I've become water. I'm loose. And now I'm giving up what I have to, like, give it up to you. And not complaining about it, about how, like, I'm losing half of the pie. Like, I'm. I'm just offering to you, like, thankfully. So that's like, really key into, like, the thing of kind of his new life of and of needs. He talks about again, he kind of goes into these kind of things that, like, might be. Might be some of you might. I will talk about. Oh, this is cliche. King of kings, Lord of lords. But what it's saying, right, it's again, the idea of Jesus is king. It's the idea that he is king and we're all kings. And what that means is that we need to learn how to rule in this humble way, because God is a humble king. He talks about Jesus as being the fountain that fills his cup. That's like, again, water imagery. The idea of being a fountain that feels that he is satisfied. Going back to again, John 4 and this idea of becoming fountains that give living water. And he switches and he tries to say that to call people like, this is something that you can experience too, where he's like, you will never be the same when you call on Jesus name. And then he goes into. Really just talks about how this has really affected him. He's like, he opened up my vision, giving me a revelation again, this light in darkness, the idea of being able to see. You should again think about the blind woman. This idea of both Timba, butterfly, Kendrick, like, becoming the butterfly and shedding light. The kind of theme of blindness in the beginning of blood. And this idea of seeing and light is all kind of tied together, giving me a revelation, something of a vision, something that I can see that is beyond what I normally see out in the world, that there is this way of seeing beyond to seeing what actually things should be. And then he says these lines where he's like, this ain't bout a damn religion. Jesus brought a revolution. And these are really critical lines because.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, that line always stuck out to me.

[Femi]

It's such a powerful. And it's interesting. It's the only curse word he uses in the entire album. It's a light curse word, but it's.

[Kanye West]

The only one interesting. I didn't think about that.

[Femi]

And it's like, yeah, it's the only one. And I think he's really striking out of this idea that is naturally gonna happen that people are like, oh, Kanye got religious on us. Kanye's like, oh, that's kinda him and his, okay, yeah, maybe he was weak. And so he needed whatever from religion offers and. And he wants to get out to heaven. He's afraid that's what people think. But then he's like, no, this ain't about a damn religion. Jesus brought a revolution. And so what's in that? Right? And I think so this actually really captured. There is a theologian named N.T. wright. Connie might have read this person. He's a very famous theologian. And I know Connie has done a lot of studying, so I wouldn't be surprised if he'd read this book. But there's a British kind of anglican theologian named N.T. wright who wrote this book that is called the Day the Revolution Began, Reconsidering the meaning of Jesus Crucifixion. And essentially, according to the summary and in particular lines within the book, it says that, like Wright argues that Jesus death on the cross was not only to absolve us from our sins, it was actually the beginning of a revolution commissioning the Christian faithful, the followers of Jesus into a new vocation, a royal priesthood, to be able to act as the intermediaries between God and humanity and creation and responsible for restoring and reconciling all of God's creation. And so that whole book and that idea that I think he's getting at there is this idea that it's not about this idea of, like, me, I just need something to kind of get through my day or something like that, or I needed something to do on Sundays, or like, I need to kind of get away from all this. It's the idea of like him realizing that, like what Jesus was talking about is a revolution that has. That has implication on how not just individually, but society, how we think about society and what we do, it's very political, it's very social, it's very active. It goes along with this idea of Jesus king. A king is a political designation and not in politics of oh, it's about voting or this, that. It's about how does each person have the ability to rule actively in their life and whatever is in within their graphs to be able to create more goodness in the world, to be able to bring about more life for people. And it seemed to be really, really on his heart. And if you read the interview, if you listen to the interviews, I think that's why he talks so much about this thing about him trying to bring jobs to America and him trying to create sustainable farming. He talks about his diet, he talks about how he's trying to get, trying to develop a hurricane proof homes for Haiti and the rest of the Caribbean. And he's trying to make these appeals to people from MIT to stop working on apps and to work on things that are gonna help broader society. He spends more time talking about that in those interviews than he does about anything related to the music.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And I know behind the scenes he's been working on all that stuff for a while, homeless shelters, designing those hurricane. I think the domes are the hurricane proof homes. Yeah. So it, yeah, I could, I never really tied it into this act or this idea of the revolution that Jesus started, but I see how it, I definitely see how it falls directly in line with everything that Jesus taught.

[Femi]

Yeah. And I think it goes right on to the next lines where he's like, all the captives are forgiven. Time to break down all the prisons. Yeah, right. And this is, he's been mentioning this all the time. He'll talk about slavery, captivity, and he'll specifically talk about like how like 1 and 3 are locked up. He'll mention the 13th amendment. So many times the 13th amendment abolished slavery, but like kept it for those that have committed crimes. Right. And what he's talking about is the idea that we, this prison reform. It's like we need to change how we think about humanity. We need to free, we need to change things so that we can destroy these prison and this industrial complex like it is, it's very active in the world, what he's talking about. And again it goes back to what Jesus read when he opened in Luke 4, when he opened about, read the scroll from Isaiah and talked about. He's like, the spirit is upon me to declare the good news to the poor, to release the captives yeah. That he's tying that the essence of the good news, the essence of living in the gospel of being kings. Like, Jesus is freeing people from bondage, including within the prison system.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, sorry. This is all, like, I'm taking it all in. It's, like, kind of blowing my mind right now, to be honest with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Femi]

So he's talking about that. And it doesn't end with them breaking down the prison, because then you get you. That doesn't solve all the problems. That's why he kind of goes on and he. And he says, every man, every woman, there is freedom from addiction. Right. That it's not just you need to tear down these walls, because then, like, they're gonna go out. Are they gonna get back in society? Are they still drug addicts? Are they still addicted to sex? Are they still addicted to other things? Like, he's like, we need more than just, like, plans that get rid of.

[Kanye West]

The prison population, and we need to.

[Femi]

Fundamentally give them the way to reflect their minds, to be able to teach them, to be able to let them be free from. Like, I was addicted. Like, we need to make these people get free so that they can reenter society and they can live in peace with us and things can be good.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. I mean, actually, it's the same idea Kendrick is talking about in Damn. Where I feel like. Well, even just the juxtaposition between tabimba butterfly and dam, where he has said tabimba butterfly was how to change the world and looking outward for the solution, which is, I would say, in terms of Kanye's vision here. It's like, that is the stuff about the 13th Amendment. That's the more political social reforms that we need to do as a society. But then he shifts here, just like Kendrick does on dam, where it's this also this internal battle where we need, you know, every man, every woman, there's freedom from addiction. Where we personally need not only societal, but there's this personal requirement to free ourselves from addiction. It seems like both Kanye and Kendrick see that as that solution being Jesus and God.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. And it's interesting how then that goes into this idea. He says, Sunday service on a roll. God is our given right. God is our God given right.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Jesus won the fight.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And it kind of frames, like, what. I think it shows, like, what we talked about with the farming and the domes, but also how he views Sunday service.

[Femi]

Yeah. Yeah. That's his way of being king. Right. That's his way of learning how to rule and creating these Space for people to heal and to understand life and to think. And he sees that as his primary calling, I think, and it's tying into that. He's trying to explain what that's about, why he's doing that.

[Kanye West]

And he talks about interviews like him kind of revolutionizing the church experience. And he uses his daughter a lot to exemplify how excited she is for every Sunday. And it kind of compares that with the current standard of the church experience. And it does seem like he. He calls himself now a Christian. What does he call it? Christian entrepreneur, Christian innovator. Yeah, it seems like that is what he views his role on in society now, rather than probably a cultural innovator. Innovator, which is probably what he saw himself as before.

[Femi]

Yeah, I think, yeah. He says he's no longer an entertainer. I think that's also what it gets into. Like this is a mission, not a show. That Sunday service isn't a show. It's not for entertainment. It's a mission. This larger thing again, to restore, to free the captives. Right. And that is the good news mission. Right? And that's what that is that it's about. It's about souls, his own soul and I think, others. It's about his kids, his wife, it's about family, about their protection. And all this Noah imagery too, as well, by saving his family from the storm of destruction. And. And he talks about the idea that this is my God given right. And just within that, I hear so much of the Declaration of Independence about. We hold these truths to be self evident, that we are all endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. And that being a sense of people using that to focus on their own individual happiness or their own individual right to have a gun or their own individual right to do this or to have this thing or to have whatever it be. And then being like, no, like God is my God given. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, like that, like that. This, like, again, it's back to everything we have, everything we need. Like we need you, that kind of thing. And that like this individual happiness, these individual actors is not gonna actually solve. Like, it's not gonna get to the point where we actually need to be. We need to think about ourselves collectively and us in the light of like, who God is. And that is what he holds onto. And that can't be taken away. Which means that he doesn't need to like, you know, go and like, like, like buy a whole arsenal of like, of, of guns. It means that he doesn't need to go and be the thing that I need to go and, like, and, like, charge. And I need to go and, like, like, have really bad business practice and charge so much and think that it's me protecting my family that, like, we have God, we have everything we need. My heart is rich My heart is famous.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. All right, well, let's. And it's interesting to note, too, like, since that turn in Everything we need second verse, we've had water and we've had God. Is both of them very pure expressions? No, none of that residual pride seems evident in these two songs that follow that turn. But then we do get Hands on, which I feel like.

[Femi]

Yeah. Interesting song, huh?

[Kanye West]

Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. Because I would say, well, right before this, I kind of saw something interesting, but we could talk through. But, yeah, so it starts out. At least some of that residual resentment seems to creep back in.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And that's pretty prominent throughout the first verse.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And I'm going to summarize here, but, you know, I think the most potent line is the one about Christians judging him, being the first ones to judge him.

[Femi]

It definitely stands out and kind of.

[Kanye West]

Questioning him and his authenticity and his. And his genuineness in this space now.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

But then, you know, so I was wondering, like, why would this creep back in? But. Yeah, well, let me get your thoughts on that, and then we'll move to the second verse.

[Femi]

Yes, totally. Yeah. It's so interesting, the song, actually, again, you still see a lot of the, like, core themes really early on. So he talks about cut out all the lights. He's the light. Which I think is a reversal of all the lights. Right? All of the lights. All of the lights. Turn off the lights in here, baby. Extra bright. I need you to see this. But now it's like he turns on that. And, like, God is like, the light and is the one that is able to shine in, like, darkness. You have that. There's this interesting thing where he talks. Starts talking about, like, kind of police harassment and about being like, the brights. The lights are into the bright lights of, like, these beams and, like, him getting stopped and, like. And like, that kind of thing. And like, this idea of hands then become like, him, like, police telling him to put his hands up. And there's, like, the police putting their hands on him to search him. It's this kind of, like, people don't. Like, he's not trusted, and people are kind of, like, are trying to kind of search him. So it's this kind of more negative View of, like, him hands up, and then, like. And there's him kind of being searched, which I think is kind of ties into this image that he's painting with. I think what he thinks is, like, the Christian backlash that he's gonna get. And so I think. So what's interesting, right? So he's like, yeah, so he's like. He talks about how he. How he wants to do this. He's like. And then people essentially seem to ask him, or he's asking himself, like, what have you been hearing from the Christians? And he's kind of, like, saying this thing, which is, like, maybe true, but he's, like, pointing it out. He's like, yeah, they're gonna be the first one to judge me. What's interesting is that it doesn't lead him to kind of aggression. It doesn't lead him to being kind of acting in ways that are clearly unchristlike, like he did with his dad. It's very much this thing of. It's this pain thing. You hear this pain. Feel like nobody feeling like nobody loves me. I feel like I'm in the dark. Like he's been cast back out into the darkness after, like, about God being the light. It's this really sad thing of where I think. Yeah, it's this, I think, really heartfelt sadness, more than his anger or pride or blaming them, really, even. And he'll talk about that later. And that's what I say is. I think if you read it, and when I first heard it, I really felt he was complaining. I think that might. There's maybe a little bit of layer to that. But I think the overwhelming thing, if you really read it, is that it's this sadness that acknowledging the fact that this is gonna be the case. And we can say that, yes, for, like, a large number of Christians, this actually is the case. And he almost had to include it to be able to address that on the record.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, well. And it's interesting to me because, like, yeah, he sets all that up in the first verse in the chorus, but then this. And I'm gonna read basically the entire second verse here because I do think it shows this humility now. And the turning point of the song is, I feel like the last couple lines, he says, I deserve all the. All the criticism you got. If that's all the love you have, that's all you got to sing of change. You think I'm joking? To praise his name? You ask what I'm smoking. Yes, I understand your reluctancy, but I have a Request you see don't throw me up Lay your hands on me Please pray for me hold myself on death hold it down all falling down Somebody pray for me. And that to me is. Yeah, a shift in attitude for sure. So, yeah. Comparing it to what's the name is the song. He's arguing with his dad. Yeah.

[Femi]

Follow God.

[Kanye West]

Yeah.

[Femi]

Super big shift. Yeah.

[Kanye West]

It's. It's very humble act of just please pray for me. Like lay your head. And then that's a shift of what hands on means. Or hands on was more like you described with the police touching him, hand being hands on. And this more sinister kind of view of what it means to have someone have their hands on you. And he's asking all those people to shift that, to shift that meaning. And rather than lay your hands on me in aggression, lay your hands on me. It's like this weird, this physical touch thing and this humbly asking for a prayer to me just seems like just a huge shift.

[Femi]

Yeah. And it's important context here is that. So this is an important part of many expressions of Christianity, particularly within evangelical tradition and going back to even the New Testament, it's very common as form when you pray for someone to put to what's called laying hands on them, to like hold them or touch them. And this idea that this kind of energy that the spirit that like this encouragement is kind of going through, like laying their hands on them and then praying and praying for them. So it's a sign of. And you often see this happen where there's like several people, like a crowd of people gathered around a person or like a group of people to like lay, to like to hold them, to put their hands on them and pray for them. It's this physical sign of surrounding and embracing and sending forth like a particular person. Meanwhile, it's also hands up, his hands up to God, Father, stretch my hands to you asking for help. But also this kind of idea of by asking for help, it's this sign of humility, of I don't have it opening my hands up, I can't do anything about this. And turn. Looking kind of up and recognizing his own faults, recognizing that there's reason for him to doubt. It's such a big shift. And I think if you only focus on the Krishna judgment, you think that that's the end of the statement. That's not. It's a factual statement that he's actually able to show that I really acknowledge this and reckon with it. And because of that, I'm gonna lower myself to you. People, because that's what I need to do and it's what I really deserve to do. And I really ask you, even if you dislike me before, please lay your hands on me, gather around me like you're supposed to be doing in church, and pray for me. Because I'm in this place where I have all this power and influence. I don't know what to do with it. Right. And I need you to be surrounded because after all, what. We are soldiers. We are soldiers. Not I am a soldier. And no soldier defend themselves with a shield by themselves. There's this idea that they need to be surrounded, which I think is the idea of like, laying your hands and surrounding is being surrounded and having hands and kind of joining together in this. Kind of. This consolidation and like becoming what people are supposed to. Meant to be together, becoming humanity, joining together and lifting up those who might have fallen before.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. So this leads us into use this gospel, which I kind of view this. Or at least I'm at this point we're only a week out of the album, but it kind of seems like a narrative summation of the album journey. I'm just going to read the hook because I do think it's kind of like really encapsulates the album as a whole. It says, use this gospel for protection, which seems to tie back into this idea of soldiers. And even more so now that I heard you describe how it's described in the Bible and using God as armor and shield and having swords. It's a hard road to heaven. Acknowledging kind of what he's just talked about, really. On even the previous song. But also in the. The. The whole first half of the album, we call on your blessings. Basically kind of giving up that. That control of his own life and handing it over to God. And then in the Father, we put our faith, which is. Yeah, I mean, that just really stood out to me as kind of. Yeah. Really encapsulating the journey we just kind of experienced.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So obviously the kind of. The biggest headline from this song is the reunion of clips, which I think probably most people are familiar with. I don't know if we really need to get into a lot of detail, but essentially it's Pusha T and Malice's clips. Malice, for a number of reasons, ended up leaving the group and really committing to his faith and has only since made Christian music. Correct.

[Femi]

Yes. That is all he's done.

[Kanye West]

And he changed and he changed his name to no Malice, which you pointed out was kind of related to a Bible. A Bible passage is that correct?

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remove from you all malice.

[Kanye West]

Sure. So we get the. Well, we should also. Yeah, you have in the notes. It's kind of a reverse. You see it as a reversal of Runaway, which I. I didn't think about. I definitely noticed the similarities of production, or at least in that kind of single key piano line.

[Femi]

Yeah, that's.

[Kanye West]

But then you also have the appearance of Pusha T is also on Runaway. And.

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kanye West]

So I'm gonna just frame this, the song structure, and then I'll let you kind of riff on it. But, yeah, essentially we have that hook, which we already read, and then Push A T comes in, we get the hook again, and then we have Malice. And I feel like Malice on a production level and even a thematic level is really. You know, Kanye is known to use his guests as characters in his narratives. He's talked about it. Other people have talked about him consciously doing that. I feel like this. This juxtaposition between Pusha T and. And no Malice is definitely saying something here. I think it's also Malice's verse. The production shifts. If you notice that the choir. Everything drops out but the choir. And it's the first time that we hear women voices who sing in a higher register. So it becomes this really brilliant, very powerful moment of the album. I think it's.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally.

[Kanye West]

But at least on a production level, it's the climactic musical moment of the entire album.

[Femi]

Totally.

[Kanye West]

And, yeah, Malice kind of confesses his sins. I haven't really wrapped my head around what Pusha T is saying, so maybe you can unpack that if you. If you have a thought, some thoughts on that. But yeah, let's talk about. Let's talk about that, and then we'll talk about, like, Kenny G coming in. But so, yeah, let's talk about the juxtaposition between Pusha T and no Malice.

[Femi]

Yeah, cool. Yeah. So I'll give you a bit background, because I started to understand this differently when I looked at the background. So. Yeah, so clips. Right. They're kind of drug dealing rappers. They rap all from the start about selling cocaine. Big hit song to start with was grinding. About grinding, selling cocaine, hustling patty cake, patty cake, I'm the baker's man Selling cakes of cocaine and things like that. And so that was Malice's line. And so what goes. They go back to. They were selling cocaine before they got a major deal. What's interesting is that there was some point where I think Malice picked up one of his friends who had just gotten out of jail. And they were planning to sell mo cocaine. And some woman drove by, got out of her car, and started talking to them about Jesus. And really similar to good Kidimat City, like, you sing about me, I'm dying of thirsty, and basically starts telling Jesus. They kind of argue with her. They say, this doesn't make any sense. And so he talks to him. But they actually get somewhat convinced by this and essentially say the sinner's prayer.

[Kanye West]

Which is the same prayer that kid says on.

[Femi]

Same prayer that says, yeah, exactly. So then they basically acknowledge Jesus as Lord or kind of Lord of his life. But then he kind of doesn't really pay any attention to it. He doesn't live by it. He keeps on selling cocaine. He gets a rap deal. They get famous. They kind of live it up. They bring along their crew together. Things are going good. What happens? Eventually, I can't remember. It was like, 2007, 8 or 9, or somewhere around that time, late 2000s, their manager, who would come up with them, he gets busted by the feds. And they discover that their manager, Anthony Gonzalez, has a $20 million drug enterprise selling cocaine and heroin and all these other things. Dude gets locked up for 30 years, 32 years sentenced. And then the feds start looking for associates. So they start rounding up other people in their circle. Like, other people get arrested, I think. And, like. And in the meantime, the feds basically freeze all of their accounts. And so. And there's, like, word that they're still looking for two other suspects. So they're getting really stressed. Malice, meanwhile, has been, like, over the time, kind of really, like, been kind of more and more guilty by how he's living his life. He's married. He's like. But he's not living. He's very much living like, Kanye was, like, last year in terms of, like, sex addiction, and he's smoking a whole lot of weed. He's like, all things. He's not. He's not really being a good father and a good husband. And. And this is kind of weighing on him. And then as soon as this, like, they get, like. They're, like, under the. Like. Under the, like, potential investigation from the feds. It, like. It, like, burdens him even more. And apparently there's this moment where they're on a. Where Malice is on a plane. They're about to fly. They're going to fly to, like, a next city for a tour. And then Pusha T doesn't get on the plane, or he's not on the plane, or, like, he's not There when, like, Niles sits down, he's waiting, and the plane's about to take off. And, like. And then Nal's at that time is like. Is super worried. He's like, wait, I think the feds might have gotten, like, gotten and, like, raided Pusha and, like. And, like, we're, like, done with. So he was, like, really, really worried. And then, like. Cause, like, Pusha is never late to things, and eventually Pusha gets on the plane at the very last minute. But, like, that scare and the fact of realizing, what could it be, it was like, his, like, last moment where he's basically, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not doing this. And so that's when they split. And basically, that's really the moment where Malice decided to kind of give, like, really give his life. To give his life over to God, to actually live in a way that was gonna not be talking about, like, not selling cocaine, not talking about it, not creating. Cause he realized it was poisonous. He realized what damage he had done and what he wanted to do. So that's the historical context. So when you get into him talking about. I think when you get into him talking about, like, in my bed. Undercovers. Undercovers. When the undercovers had raided, talking about that moment, I think it's talking about those moments when they were scared. Like, the feds were kind of coming for them to look into all the assets and everything. My presence is. Yeah, my presence is happy belated. And I think it actually might even be that moment on a plane where Malice is kind of. It's the juxtaposition. It's like, the critical moment for Malice where he's, like. Where Pushti's late. But that really just sets it off for Malice where it's like, we can't be living at the edge of destruction like this. And so, yeah, so you talk about that. The idea of kind of, like, saying it's real. This idea of their assets being kind of looked at, but him still, like, hey, it doesn't matter. He acknowledges his own crookedness, but doesn't really feel like he can change it is kind of where you kind of have it. So he kind of still ends kind of where you left him on the plane, that he's still living in this way. And even though his brother has, like, turned and, like, left this lifestyle.

[Kanye West]

Okay, so, yeah, I'm getting. Okay, so the. Just to make it clear, you're seeing this as a commentary because they haven't been together since that plane ride.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So this is now the first time that they've been together, and they are acknowledging that moment and where their lives have gone basically since that moment.

[Femi]

Exactly. Yeah. And, like, they're friends. They still, like, hang out. They, like, made, like, push Malice, like, actually made a documentary called, like, the End of Malice, which actually tells a lot of this backstory. So they've been friends, but Malice has refused to work with Pusha on anything that Pusha's wanted to work on. And so that's why they haven't made any Eclipse albums or anything. So. Yeah. So I think that's what's kind of going on. And you're seeing this juxtaposition of these two brothers. Cause then Malice comes up, and you see that Pusha, he talks about these things. He kind of just talks about them as if they happen. He acknowledges God, but he kind of just kind of tells these kind of stories. And he acknowledges his crookedness, but that's kind of it. And it's really this contrast with Malice who confesses his sins. Right. He's like a lot of souls that are damaged, though. He's thinking about all the people he sold cocaine to. Everybody that he talked about it that went and sold cocaine afterwards and how he ruined families. Those weigh on him, right? And he talks about selling things. And in my arrogance, I took a camera pose. He's trying to. He's taking selfies of himself, so happy and proud that he's making money and selling stuff or telling people to do that, talking about it. And then he's, like, caught in a trunk with Barry Manilows. So Barry Manilow is like an adult contemporary singer. And then Oze is like a slang for ounces. Oz of cocaine. So he's like cow with a trunk of Barry Manow. So he's trying to drive cocaine through Virginia beach or Virginia or wherever. And then he gets caught. And then, of course, he's gonna get arrested. That's why the next line is, they sing a different tune when the slammer close. Slammer being the prisons. Singh referring back to Barry Manilow. So great couple lines there. Then he says, like, from the concrete grew a rose, which is a reference to Tupac. I think he might have actually written that while he was in prison. I'm not sure. But that's around that era. So that's a Tupac kind of quote. The idea of life coming out from this hardness, from the concrete of prison, from this kind of death and destruction and being paved over that out of that somehow this kind of rose and beauty can kind of come out and then to the end where it ends with like, just hold your brother when his. Just hold on to your brother when his faith lost. Right. And he's talking about Pusha. Right. In terms of Pusha, this kind of person that is still in his crookedness and feels like he can't leave or doesn't want to leave. And he's holding onto him, and he's like, I'm holding onto you. Just like I held onto Kanye.

[Kanye West]

Yeah.

[Femi]

Who has come around.

[Kanye West]

Actually, Pusha T has a song who's also my brother. Pusha T and Kanye have a song called hold on on Pusha T's album.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So, yeah, it's. And it kind of. I saw it as kind of relating to this idea of hands on that comes exactly.

[Femi]

This next thing before.

[Kanye West]

Right. Totally, totally. That reversal of. Of the way that. Yeah. Hands on in an aggressive way or hands on in terms of, like, asking for prayer. And it seems like.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

I mean, this is really the last. I would say that's like the kind of like the last line of the album. I mean, we're going to get into Jesus as Lord, but. Yeah, it feels like this is kind of a very considered and perfect way to end this kind of journey that's. That's unfolding. Then we get this beautiful sax solo from Kenny G, of all people, of course.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

And it's this very. I feel like, very climactic moment of the album where we get this single sax solo, which I'm sure you can think metaphorically, and I haven't really thought about it too hard of what that could kind of represent, but me either. And then we get the drums come back in. I feel like this is like the most cinematic maybe, aside from Salah. But it's really a very dramatic moment in the album. This whole. This whole song is. Is, I think, pretty incredible.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

So let's get into. Wrap it up with. Of course, Jesus is Lord, which I didn't know, but you pointed out was a quote from a letter from St. Paul. Is that correct?

[Femi]

Yep. Yeah, correct. St. Paul. St. Paul.

[Kanye West]

There's a theory out there that the life of Pablo is. Is actually based on the story of Saint Pablo. Yeah. Inspired by. So why don't. Yeah. If you can give us some insight to that letter, that'd be great.

[Femi]

Yeah. Okay, so a couple of things here. So the idea that Jesus is Lord. We talked about Jesus being king, so Jesus is Lord. Similar, but different statements. Lord. People don't use that very much, I guess, in America, maybe in, like, the UK or Something you might use that. But how it's used in the Bible is that. So what happened is like, so the personal name of God, the God of Israel, is Yahweh. But what happened is due to somewhat of the Ten Commandments and other things, basically within the practice of Israelite worship, they stopped saying the name because they wanted to honor it by not saying it and not having it kind of degraded. So what they started doing is they started using the word Lord or I think Adonai in Hebrew to actually refer to, rather than saying the name Yahweh. Even when it's written in the Hebrew scriptures, they don't actually say Yahweh or whatever it should actually be. They say Adonai, as in Lord. So Lord doesn't just refer to. It's actually less earthly political. It's Lord is a way to talk about Yahweh, the God of Israel. So what's interesting, it's actually slightly different. So, like, to say Jesus is king whenever Jesus is king is really about this idea of kingship of earth, of rule on earth. Lord is really this idea of Yahweh, of creating of the God that's above everything. And so you'll notice that at the first line of the very first line that Kanye says at the beginning is God is king, meaning person that God is king. And then here it says Jesus is Lord. But by Jesus saying Jesus is Lord, he's saying that Jesus is God. But they kind of like, kind of come together. He's actually focusing. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So he's focusing on Jesus. Divinity is the focus there, and tying it back to God being king. So it kind of works together. And it's this very statement of Jesus being God and this being this kind of fundamental claim about Christianity of this kind of God and human figure together that shows us how to rule like God ruled.

[Kanye West]

That was super clever.

[Femi]

That's what the line itself means. So that's one thing. But the more critical thing is that. So this is taken from. It's a book called Philippians, and it happens to be the very first hymn that is recorded anywhere that is written to Jesus. So it's really significant in the understanding of theology of how early Christians view Jesus. It's why it's really critical in a lot of scholarship. And what's interesting is that it's the end of a larger section that is basically retelling Jesus life as a narrative arc. And in particular, it's looking at it through the lens of humility and Showing how Jesus's arc should be the arc that all other followers of Jesus should try to follow. And so where it comes out from this is like Philippians 2. It says, this is Paul talking to like a group, a church group of Christians. And he says like that, hey, instead of being motivated by selfless ambition and vanity, each of you in humility should treat each other better and more important than yourselves. Each one of you should be concerned not about your own interests, but about the interests of others as well. You should have the same mindset that Christ, that the Lord Messiah, the Anointed one Jesus had. And then it goes into this poem, which is the kind of poem, hymn, and it says, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped or to be taken advantage of, but he emptied himself, he became taking on the form of a slave by looking like another human and by sharing his human nature, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. And as a result, God exalted him and highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and. And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. So if you see what he's doing there, it's like he starts off with the idea of Jesus being kind of God at the beginning. Him emptying him, coming down, becoming a slave, becoming a human, humbling himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, all the way down into the grave, into the earth, and then exalting God, then lifting him up, God lifting him up. Resurrection, right. Imagery, the ascension, lifting up to the throne in heaven and giving him this name that is above the name. And a name actually within Hebrew is also how they would. Another way you could actually interchangeably not say Yahweh is. You can refer to him as the Name. So he's also. It's another statement of saying that he is God, he is the God of Israel. Is what it's like saying there that at the name of Jesus, every, every, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. So it's all of that. So it's. It's about that statement, but it's larger. What it's tied to is this idea.

[Kanye West]

Of humility which is kind of brings us full circle back to the story we be. We began with the King of Babylon.

[Femi]

Exactly, exactly. And what the claim here Right. Is when you look at the two stories, it's like, humble yourself or you will be humbled.

[Kanye West]

Which is. I mean, that calls to mind Kendrick's point on. Damn. It's like the suffering. Yeah. It's the exact same point you can attribute to pride for. To do all these things that we call kind of fall prey to.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And. Yeah, either humble yourself. I like that, like, a lot. Humble yourself or you will be humbled by God. I think Kendrick definitely on DAM at least, is very much emphasizing the. The ways in which God will humble you. And, yeah, that idea is super powerful, but, yeah, it seems like. Yeah. And what Kanye takes from what you just said, but what Connie takes from that poem is every niche I'll bow. Every tongue should or every tongue confess.

[Femi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kanye West]

So there is this act of humility, lowering oneself with the bow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is. I'm just taking all this in because. Well, one. I'm just crazy. I'm sure every listener right now is really impressed with how much you've kind of dissected this in less than a week. But I also kind of imagined myself listening to this album in your shoes, where it's like all these kind of radars or all these bells are going off every time you're, like, listening. Oh, that. That. That. That. Like, all the. Like. And then I'm sure it was kind of exciting listening to this album and just. Yeah. Just kind of weaving all these connections together. And. Yeah, it's been super enlightening, and I'm just, again, trying to kind of take this all in. Yeah. And I think it's also, like, interesting to note and point out that I was looking through the credits, and there's, like, five to 10. I mean, there's a bunch of producers, but if they. They actually separated it by lyricist. Have you looked at the credits at all?

[Femi]

I've not, actually.

[Kanye West]

There are. There are five to 10 writers, lyrical writers of lyrics on every single song, which.

[Femi]

Wow.

[Kanye West]

You know, I say that only because it's like, we. You just laid out this pretty complex. I wouldn't say narrative, but there's a lot of references. It does seem to have an arc. It does seem to have a very conscious journey and turning points and. And all that to say, like, I know there'd be people skeptical that Kanye would be able to do that. Um, but he did have a lot of help, and I guarantee if we. I haven't looked into the writers. A lot of them I didn't know off the top of my head. But I'm gonna guess that they have religious ties or spiritual ties or something, because. And also, I. I realized both Pusha T and no Malice have writing credits on at least three or four songs.

[Femi]

Yeah. Yep.

[Kanye West]

So, yeah, I mean, I think. Well, we're.

[Femi]

Yeah, go ahead. It's a very mature. It's a very mature album. It's like, very mature. Like, this is not, like, I do not run. It's not, like, run of the mill Christian, like, writing that I run into frequently. It's like, it's very mature in its theological understanding. It's really uncommon. And like, a lot of these things that I'm explaining, I didn't understand, like, the first 30 years of my life, which was raised Christian. And it's very, very mature. Either he himself, slash the people that he surrounded himself with or were able to pick out, have a very, very solid understanding of this. In this narrative, it's. You don't just.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, I mean, that is kind of the narrative. Some of the narrative around this album is that. Well, there's a lot. I would say. I would say the more casual listener who doesn't really listen listens mostly for, like, just. Just entertainment or pleasure. Like, it seems like negative reviews are pretty common from those kind of listeners, which, you know, that's fine. Like, you know, we don't know. Not all people listen to music the same way. But there also is that more cynical perspective of, you know, Kanye is just doing this to get back into the good graces. This is going to be kind of like he's just using the aesthetics of Christ or of Christianity for. For. For aesthetic. For aesthetic value. It's kind of just like what's catching in his eye at this moment. And it's not very genuine, it seems like. I mean, I'm kind of convinced now how you've kind of broke this down, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on if you do think it's genuine. I think I know the answer, but. And. And. And the reasons why you would. You would think the way you do about it.

[Femi]

Yeah, I mean, I. I personally think it's genuine. I mean, like, you don't spend your time and money and effort even just bringing people together to put something like this and take such a risk on your career just because you want to get in some good graces. There's no reason you need that. And so risky anyway, in terms of the fact that it's not a perspective that is shared by many people, and so it might turn away a lot of fans. I Think it's already been kind of the case for a lot of people there. So it's, it's just that. And when you see people being able to get to some certain of these ideas, it's like you really have to. I feel like for a lot of these things, you really have to put aside what you previously think to be able to even accept them and project them. I think that's a big thing. And it's just like, I don't see anybody just being. You wouldn't put in the work to get the right people to cause. Kanye, he's not stupid, and he knows art, he knows kind of history. He's traveled the world. He's seen different expressions of Christianity. His kids were baptized in an Orthodox church, which goes back to the Eastern traditions, which are really closely tied to a lot of how this is interpreted. It's very well tied to a lot of the more original early understandings of Christianity. And his kids were baptized in Armenian church, which is related there. And so you don't, like, you just had to expose a lot of that and the fact that he would make a call to pick, because there's lots of ways you can try to explain God, Bible things, and you can even pick a really simple or much less complex one than this one, because it's very complex and it's very well tied. It's very backed up. There's solid theologians that worked for decades that have worked to try to express these things this way in books and stuff like that. And so I can't imagine somebody doing the work to try to like, bring this right thing and having the right sense of who to trust because there's so many people that would not explain it this way. And so it's like the fact that you can even discern who to bring on, even if you didn't want this word of this is like, the amount of, like, you don't just stumble into the right people to say something like this. And so, like, that's, that's one thing. And the second thing that I found actually listening to his interviews, which sometimes he'll be like, you know, there's still like a lot of these, like, things of, like, him being proud and arrogant and then other times when getting upset and angry. But I was really actually impressed with like, how much he as, like, his form, this pattern of, like, people would ask him things and he would really turn things back to God and turn things to his, like, limitedness. So for you.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, that was the impression that I got with the interviews. There was definitely. It definitely felt like someone very much in the process of. Of discovering this and stating it as his aim, but by no means has reached the.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

The potential of that aim, I guess. And it seemed like he was acknowledging that, because there were definitely multiple times where he would catch himself and you could see it in real time where he would start to go on a kind of more traditional Kanye response, and then he would catch himself and it would flip, and he'd say, but it's not up to me. It's on God. And then he would, like. It's like he's constantly kind of reminding himself. And that was kind of like. Yeah. I mean, there was definitely moments in the interviews where I was challenged by the way that he was even using God as kind of defending his own actions, which I just didn't really sit right with me. But then there were other times where I thought it made perfect sense, and it seemed to really fall in line with this new vision of his life. And so I did. Yeah. I mean, I'm like all things Kanye trying to reserve judgment until time has passed. And I feel like in the moment, it's so complex and it's. There's so many things to consider that it's. Yeah, I really try to reserve judgment and let things play out and also give him the benefit of the doubt that I would imagine committing yourself to this way of life, not to be easy at all. And it's not like a light turns on at all. You know, the feeling of the light turning on might be there, but to actually then commit yourself, and then, you know, he has 42 years of living basically, in this one way.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And then I would say, amplified by what is at its disposal. Disposal at all times. You know, Kendrick talks a lot about this idea of, like, your.

[Femi]

Yep.

[Kanye West]

Your vices being at your disposal at times 100, when you're famous and you have money is because you can get literally anything that you want. So if it's sex, sex is at the disposal at all times. If it's drugs, they have the money, they have the resources to feed that addiction. And so I take that into consideration as well. And you know what? I've kind of. You know, I'm still obviously wrapping my head around all. Not only the album, but just this era of Kanye. And.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

You know, I think he's trying, and that's kind of why I've always given him the benefit of the doubt through kind of his missteps and stuff where it's like, I genuinely see someone Trying to. Trying to make the world a better place. And you can argue about like totally the way going about it or the, the. The specifics of that, but like the intent. I feel like underneath it all is good. And I feel like this embracing Jesus and Christianity is. It makes sense to me, especially if you like, have followed his career for a long time. Like, God has been a presence throughout and it almost be really interesting to kind of.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Examined that aspect of his. Of his music from day one and how that's changed. And really the pinnacle of that is Jesus. I feel like where it is that like.

[Femi]

Yeah, totally.

[Kanye West]

He's kind of taking that. And there's literally a song called I Am a God. And it's like that is. Yeah, God.

[Femi]

It's. It's. I am a God.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like the arrogance of what that means and how that ties into like the King of Babylon story and all that. But like. Yeah, I mean, but the presence of God has been in every single album and even in these last couple albums, you know, and they do have arcs and all the. The most present albums, recent albums. And I was just even listening through this morning, just the latter half of those albums and each one of those in the Pinnacle song. He does talk about God in some way.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

And Ultralight Beam was supposed to be the last song on Pablo, although I got moved to the first. But like, I could see how that would. The culmination of that journey. So it's not like this is coming out all that to say, really, this is not coming out of nowhere for him. And it's not like to go back to your point of it being genuine. It's like, yeah, if it was all of a sudden kind of just embracing this and, and using the aesthetic. Yeah, maybe that'd be more suspect. But the seeds have been planted. And I want to say his mom was Christian too. I'd have to check on that.

[Femi]

But yeah, it was. And his dad is too, as well. So.

[Kanye West]

Yeah, he's very much raised environment. Yeah. I mean.

[Femi]

Yeah. And his wife, even his wife, like, I mean, Kim, I don't pay attention. I don't know what they do. But there are Armenian and Armenian. Armenia is like the oldest. One of the. I think the oldest Christian country in the world. Yeah, it is. It's an ancient Christian civilian, like the King of Armenia, like, converted to Christianity, like, I don't know, like the, like 4th century or something like that. And the Roman Empire legalized it, but they weren't officially Christian until later. But it's the first Christian country. The ruler and the institution started merging within the church, became part of the tide and in symphony with the government. So, yeah, long history for whatever that is. It means that there's even within Kim's own life and her family. I can only imagine that there are ties, maybe not even belief, but anything but in terms of your heritage and your understanding. And when you go to our meeting and go to church, you feel something that not everybody's gonna feel.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. I mean, we did a classic Femi and Cole conversation where we shot. I think I wanted to do 45 minutes. I think we're going on two hours. But no, I'm glad we did. I think hopefully if people made it this far, this for me has certainly been enlightening. I'm gonna be listening to the. To the album in a different way now, and hopefully a lot of listeners out there can also. Were. Was there any kind of closing thoughts that you had or do you. Did we cover all the. The aspects?

[Femi]

Nope.

[Kanye West]

Yeah. Yeah. Like I was saying, like, it seems like you have. I mean, if you did this in a week, I feel like you're going to have even more to say months from now. And I think, you know.

[Femi]

Yeah.

[Kanye West]

Asked you this morning if, you know, this might be your next writing project, but I think there'd be some interest in that because you definitely have a very unique and very educated perspective on this. And. Yeah, I mean, I'd definitely be interested in hearing you formalize more thoughts in the future, but. Cool. Well, I guess we can end it there. I definitely thank you for shedding so much light on it. And yeah, we'll be talking again soon. More about dam. Thank you.

[Femi]

Than.

[Kanye West]

Than Kanye. But yeah, man, that was awesome. Ra.