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- [00:00]
Chance the Rapper
Art is a documentation of life, but it's the most beautiful documentation you can make back on the canvas. Just to see what it feels like. Saying that my life is like a still life is like, it's all beautiful and it's all tough. You know what I'm saying? It always feels like I'm going through it, but it's always beautiful.
- [00:18]
Cole Kushna
Welcome, everyone, to a special episode of Dissect. I'm your host, Cole Kushna. Today I have the honor to be joined by Chance the rapper to dissect his new album, Starline. Chance.
- [00:27]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [00:28]
Cole Kushna
Honor to have you on the show, man.
- [00:29]
Chance the Rapper
It's honored to be on here.
- [00:31]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, yeah. Really excited to talk. We're going to talk in detail about Starline. Really get into the weeds of the album. Go track by track. Talk about themes and symbols and motifs. It's a beautiful body of work. Congratulations on it.
- [00:44]
Chance the Rapper
Thank you, man.
- [00:45]
Cole Kushna
Got to mention, you're just. We're recording this a day after you finish the tour, which I got to go to the show last night, which was also incredible.
- [00:52]
Chance the Rapper
Thank you. Dude.
- [00:52]
Cole Kushna
How are you feeling?
- [00:54]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
It's bittersweet.
- [00:55]
Chance the Rapper
I was just explaining this yesterday. Like, touring is a lot like camp. Like, go away camp, and you're, like, living with, you know, a bunch of co workers, but, like, also, like, you know, other human beings and traveling together on these. In this cram bus around the nation and, like, creating all these memories. And so it's like you miss your regular life, your real life, where you're not, like, you know, making a party for people every night and. And, you know, just whatever grueling stuff comes with touring, but you also miss it when it's over. So I'm just kind of like. I'm salty that I'm not on tour anymore. Right. I'm salty that I don't have a show tomorrow, but I'm also relieved that I don't have a show tomorrow, you know?
- [01:38]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Okay. Well, let's just jump right in the star line. I only have, like, 30 pages of notes to go through. Let's get into it. But I'm curious, just, like, general feeling, the album. You've been working on this album for. For quite a while, and it's been out. It's. It's only been out for two months at the time of this recording, which is kind of wild because I. I feel like I've lived with it for quite a long time now. How's the reception been so far for you?
- [02:03]
Chance the Rapper
It's been really beautiful and rewarding, I think. Like, any artist knows that. Like, and. And I say art as in, like, anybody that's a creative, whether it's, you know, writing music or writing an essay or, you know, article or working on a painting or a series of paintings. Like, anybody that's an artist knows that, like, all that work that you put into it, at least this is how I feel. Like you hope that you get even, you know, a small portion of the love back that you put into it. You know, it's not like, in business where, like, you hope that you invest a little and that the return is huge. It's just like, I know I'm gonna pour all of myself and all my vulnerabilities and all of these things that I find beautiful or clever or what into this work. And I hope just a fraction even of that is reciprocated. And I feel like I've been getting it back, like, tenfold. Like, the amount of, like, even. Just like. Like the shows. Like you said, the project's been out for two months. Typically, like, the formula is an artist releases, and then they give themselves four to six months to announce a tour, you know, and typically they rely heavily on the more popular catalog when they go out on that initial tour. And then the next year is when they do a tour that's, like, specifically about that album, because you got to give people time for it to, like, resonate and to become people's favorites and put out a few singles. And so this is the fastest I've ever went on tour after dropping a project. And the way that people know the words and have favorite songs and have, you know, have said whatever they've had to say about the project to me or through socials. It's just been like. It's just a love that I haven't felt in a long time because it's been a long time since I released a project.
- [03:47]
Cole Kushna
Right, Right. Yeah. Okay, so I want to start our. The analysis portion, I guess, with just the title Starline, because I feel like through the conversation we can have through just the title will set a lot of the groundwork for the individual tracks because it feels like a very intentional title with a lot of layers that you develop throughout the entire project.
- [04:10]
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- [05:11]
Cole Kushna
I think the most obvious layer is the Marcus Garvey Black Star line. So maybe let's just start there. Like, why did you want to anchor the album with that historical reference?
- [05:21]
Chance the Rapper
Anchor? Yeah, I think like I said before, I. I didn't know a lot about Marcus Garvey or the UNIA when I was younger and I didn't really learn about it until about like four or five years ago when I started this project. For people that don't know, Marcus Garvey is like one of our earliest, like black leaders in terms of galvanizing the public and organizing black people towards upward mobility, towards wealth, towards better legislation. And he had an idea about or an understanding of community and the power that it brings to have a larger global community. And he was the first, like, really popular leader to like look at all black people globally as a part of one group as opposed to being, you know, he's regarded as a nationalist, but like the black nationalism that he was into was like a larger, you know, all encompassing group. And he was really focused on creating and furthering the connection. And that's why he started the Black Star Line like you brought up. So they crowdfunded and organized a bunch of money from people that didn't have a lot of money throughout the nation to buy these old used government ships. And when I say ships, I mean ocean liners. So like big, big, like the carnival crew sized gigantic ships. And they were all, you know, manned and operated by black folks. And for people like me, it's a really like big deal. I think like symbolically when you learn that there were black, like most of our history, when you think of black people and ships and a long time ago altogether, you think of the transatlantic slave trade. You don't necessarily think of black people literally like seafaring and like determine their own destiny. So he bought this shipping company or he started the shipping company, bought these big old ships and started using them for trade between the US and Central America, South America and the islands. And it only operated for a few years before he was framed by the government. But it was a largely symbolic, like, you know, idea of power that had not been seen before, and I didn't learn about until, like I said, like, a few years back. And I think me being independent, me going through this, my own transformative understanding of self and identity and the larger black community, all those things happening at the same time made me feel like, I don't know, like I could just, you know, relate to. To him. To him being this, you know, young black orator. Like, he's a really good public speaker from Chicago. He. So he's. So he's Jamaican, but born, but I think raised in. In. In New York and had a. Like a network of businesses and. And factions of this unia around the. Around the nation. And I've always been on some, like, trying to organize and create groups in other spaces, all working towards one goal, whether it's like, promoting my project or doing something that's like advocacy work. But I felt like we. Like just the way that he loved the written word and also the spoken word was something that I just. I think I immediately, you know, identified with.
- [09:03]
Cole Kushna
Okay. So, yeah, I like the Black Star line as like, this historical framework for the album because I feel like a lot of the album is about ancestral knowledge and the work of elders and like, the inheritance of that and the responsibility of that inheritance. And so, like, the framework of the album being grounded in that, I think is like, it's a. It's a. It's a perfect foundation. And then you kind of use this boat ride, ship ride as like a metaphor for life's journey, essentially, is what I got from the kind of the framework of the album. And then stars being part of like this of the elders of the ants, like north stars, like celestial navigation and how. How you maneuver through the ship ride of life and using those. That celestial navigation which our ancestors is. Is elders. Those were kind of some of the. The motifs of the stars that I was picking up on.
- [10:03]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [10:05]
Cole Kushna
Also being like God being like the ultimate North Star type thing. So really, I don't know if I'm in the wrong right chapter.
- [10:12]
Chance the Rapper
No, you're right. I think stars for black folks, just historically, like we have a lot of our storytelling is based in the stars or the cosmos. You know, there. I'm sure that you've heard that slaves from the south use the north star to guide them north. You know, the Black Star line was. Was named after the white starline that was the shipping company that owned the Titanic. And so they. Starline, or starliner, refers to an ocean liner ship. But that same star, the Black star, that was the insignia of that shipping company was attached to the different newspapers that Marcus Garvey started. A lot of black countries, namely Ghana, include the black star in their national flag as a means of celebrating Pan Africanism and welcoming black folks from around the diaspora, around the world to Ghana. And, you know, biblically, you know, the three wise men followed a star to find Jesus. So there's, you know, I think we've always, in music, you know, used this kind of, like, extraterrestrial, like, motif or, like, you know, stargazing or traveling the stars or. Or being alien to a space as, like, a way to just, like. It's just something that, like, ultimately describes blackness or like. Or feels like blackness, like, you know, rest in peace. Sly Stone just passed this year, and him and Parliament, George Clinton. And so many folks in the funk era were like, you know, or even if you go to Sun Ra, there's so many different, like, black movements that were based in, like, some, like. Like I said, alien or star, you know, traveling type of aesthetic. And I think using the star part of Starline to reference all those things was something that I, like very early on, knew was gonna be a motif that will work through the project. And so it's, you know, space. It's the star also meaning myself or, you know, or even just how I think of the words. Like, I think of on this album as myself rather than myself being the star of the album. I'm like a co star. I'm a supporting actor. And my words and the words of others that are in the album are the star throughout.
- [13:00]
Cole Kushna
Beautiful. And then also tied into the idea of this black star line. And you say it. We'll talk about it when we get to Starside. Intro. But it's not just one boat. It's a fleet of starliners, which. There's a. There's a thread of mobilizing, like, literal mobilizing on the album. And I like how it's like you're kind of congregating people. You're. You're. You're asking people to come on this boat with you with purpose.
- [13:28]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [13:29]
Cole Kushna
Which I guess gets me into the line part of Starline. So I didn't know this until I was preparing for this. But in, like, nautical terms, line means a rope, specifically, a rope with a purpose, which, when I apply that to the context of the album, feels very like something that you Were trying to do, like, remind people of their purpose. You know, I think of a song like letters, where you're like, holding feet to the fire, but with a, you know, reminding them of. You're not just a rope. You're actually. There's another. There's a higher level purpose here. I'm not sure if that was something you consider with the line, but that was something I was thinking of when I was.
- [14:07]
Chance the Rapper
I think every time I think of the star line, like I said, like, the. The term starliner is like a rebranding of the term ocean liner, which means a huge ship. But when I think of, like, anytime I tried to use it, like, at the end of letters or I say line, those dots connect everybody. Like, I think of star lines as, like, when they say, like, the stars are aligned or like, like constellations, like connecting these different points of, like, of the work of our ancestors or our watchers that were meant for our, you know, overall success or future liberation. And like, you know, like putting them all together.
- [14:53]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [14:53]
Chance the Rapper
And thinking of it as, like that. That fleet being all, like you said, leading, like, in alignment on one in one charge and one, like, you know, collective goal going towards.
- [15:07]
Cole Kushna
Right. Yeah. And I think what I also appreciate about. So everything we've just kind of talked about, like, to me, the album title kind of encapsulates so much because it's like you have specifically, like, the past and present of the black experience. There's your individual experience, but then I feel like it also reaches just general human experience, and you're kind of addressing all three layers throughout the album. So personal journey, communal journey, and kind of just like a time, like, literally timeless journey that you talk about in songs that we'll get to. Okay. So we'll get into the song by song in a second. But I do want to acknowledge the album cover.
- [15:50]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [15:51]
Cole Kushna
Because I feel like this is also very intentional and all these motifs that we just talked about are all kind of in there. So do you mind if I lay out my analysis? You can tell.
- [16:00]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. And I'll tell you what's right.
- [16:02]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. So there's the black star over your head.
- [16:07]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. Most people don't even see that.
- [16:08]
Cole Kushna
I know. It took me a second to see.
- [16:10]
Chance the Rapper
It'S a little bit.
- [16:11]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, yeah. Which is cool. So that seems like Black North Star. I love that you're wearing a bucket hat. Because a bucket hat is a fisherman's hat.
- [16:20]
Chance the Rapper
Exactly.
- [16:20]
Cole Kushna
Just like, such a cool detail. So you're wearing a vest, which to me, I'm like, obviously it's not a life vest, but it's harkening to a vest, a life vest that you would wear on a ship. I also thought because you say, like, put on that full armor. Could also.
- [16:36]
Chance the Rapper
There you go.
- [16:37]
Cole Kushna
Allude to a bulletproof vest of some sort. You're wearing navy blue, which is like nautical uniform. Navy is associated with the Navy. Obviously, there's water behind you, so we're getting what actual ship rides on. There's a mountain range as well, which to me, I thought maybe highs and lows. I don't know if that was intentional.
- [16:57]
Chance the Rapper
But some of the stuff is on Brandon, so I was like, I can't even. Like the artist. Yeah, yeah. Brandon bro painted it. And he is very into, you know, symbolic work in his. In his pieces and very, very, like, detailed when it comes to, you know, deciding the landscape that he's going to put behind me after he does the photograph.
- [17:18]
Cole Kushna
Okay, right. So then there's obviously a star, sky of stars, and then the northern lights as well, which I read was Indigenous peoples in the Arctic believed that they symbolize ancestors or spirit guides, which ties perfectly into the album. So was that the intention there?
- [17:35]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. So the process of making this cover was similar to a lot of them, a little bit more involved. I think, from Brandon's standpoint. He visited the studio a lot and would come and kind of pseudo interview me, like, while we were working on the music. And I remember from the very beginning being like, I want to include, you know, a star or stars or something. And he wasn't. I think he was a little partial to it because he had. We'd already done Me and the Cosmos for coloring book. And so I remember him just over time coming in and saying little things to me. Some of the things that I know for sure he was like, in all of the other poses for the COVID arts that he's painted. I'm kind of flush with the camera, like, straight on and, you know, my head is tilted up or down or looking straight, you know, past the lens, basically. And the other covers and this one, he wanted me to do, I think, what he calls a captain's pose. So a lot of, like, 17th century, like, paintings of, like, famous, like, oh, okay, yeah, you know, captains of ships and shit. They would take their poses where they're like, kind of turned a third, like, to the left, and then they, you know. So he was like, I want. He. He originally had, like, a super involved idea that was like, me at a desk, and it's like the inside of A ship. And there'd be like, another painting on the wall. Like, he wanted to get really, really, like, molecular. I was like, we don't have time for that. But. But I know that, like, the waters were intentional talked about, you know. You know, also like, alluding to some of the past work. So I remember him saying something about doing the mountains to call back to acid rap. I don't remember the exact reason why, but I remember also we were kind of like, going back and forth with how to represent the North Star and, like, what color to make the star. Cause I obviously wanted a black star. And so I remember when he. Him telling me this really deep story about, you know, the specific place that you go to to see the northern lights, which is what's depicted in that background. I guess it's a mountainous area. But the black star that's in there got added at the last minute because he wanted the northern lights to represent the North Star. And then maybe like, you know, three or four days before we submitted the whole thing, I was like, just please put a small black star in there. And yeah, the vest I wanted to wear because in a lot of the, you know, planning for aesthetics, like, I wanted stuff to feel, you know, battle prepared, armored. So there's a lot of, like, utility, you know, vest or. Or holsters that I've. That I've worn over the years. So I wanted to have that represented. The fisherman hat is also like, you know, a part of, like, a tactical, like, gear that sometimes people wear when they're working in certain ops. Like, everything was meant to look a little bit more, I think, serious just overall, because I feel like a lot of the topics are heavy or about grief or about whatever. But yeah, I think, like, what I can definitely say is that Brandon, like, thought a lot about all the content of the music and wanted to give as many of those things. And I don't think the other projects have that as much. They're more so based on me, you know, he wanted my head to be in the clouds for 10 days because I was a kid that wanted to be famous and has me in the woods in asarap because I'm, you know, doing some trippy shit. But they don't. They don't. Those other covers don't allude as much to the actual content of the lyrics as much as it does to, like, my age or how he saw me at the time. And I think this was the one where he. I think this is probably Brandon's favorite project of mine. And I think this was the one that he was the most like involved with in terms of like trying to find out what to put into the.
- [21:36]
Cole Kushna
COVID Yeah, it's a lot to work with. I think it's. I mean, it's my favorite project of yours.
- [21:42]
Chance the Rapper
Thank you, man.
- [21:42]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, there's a lot of. It just seems more mature. I think you're rapping the best you've ever wrapped in your career for sure. And just the layers that we're going to get into with the songwriting and not only just individual songs, but the way motifs develop over the entire project, I think it's just been. It's a. It's my favorite kind of art, which is like I always say, like great art will give you what you give it, it's meaning. Like if you give it your time and it's truly great, it will continue. It will continue to give the harder you look where you can't say that about every project. So.
- [22:19]
Chance the Rapper
Thank you, man.
- [22:20]
Cole Kushna
It's only been two months, but I do have, yeah, 15 pages of questions for you. So let's go. Let's jump into Starside. Intro.
- [22:27]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. Surprise.
- [22:28]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
It's the boy who live it's the West Shadam Santa with some toys to give a 38 special I call Noisy Cricket I got a chain on now.
- [22:35]
Cole Kushna
Called Roy G Biv Feels very intentional. Intro. One of my favorite parts about the intro is that you start by just rapping. 32 bar verse, a kick drum, some like underwater kind of sounds behind you, but it's just. It's like you're just rapping. I will point out for the listeners that you do sustain a three syllable scheme. The entire verse. Yeah, six iterations of it. But I didn't actually. It's so smooth that it doesn't call attention to itself. But then I was like, holy. The entire verse is three syllables. Yeah. And so I guess walk me through the intention of the song. What were you like? I guess like what? Like what were you trying to accomplish in the intro and at what point was it written? Because it seems like you're setting up a lot for the album. You're also addressing the. The gap in between projects. So you're. You're doing a lot. So like I'm. I'm just curious where it started.
- [23:31]
Chance the Rapper
That's such a good question. I think I spent more time thinking about what the intro would be about than actually like recording it and writing it.
- [23:39]
Cole Kushna
That makes sense.
- [23:41]
Chance the Rapper
So over the years, I think there's like been three different songs that were going to be the intro and I Think one of the things that I really was debating on in my head is how much is this. Like you were just saying, is this intro a thesis for the album? You know, is it my first arguments for everything that I'm gonna be saying on the album, or is it more retrospective and that it's like talking about, you know, myself as an individual and what I've been through in the past to kind of give an explanation. And I think, like, I had a few different ideas for it being, you know, for it to be a song. That's the thesis and, you know, talk about some of the heavier topics that are gonna be in the album and kind of introduce them and introduce the ills of the world and paint this backdrop. But I think I just remembered listening experience wise. When I'm listening to an album, I want context first. Don't, like, just throw me into the album. Don't like, you know, give me all the ills of the world and then explain it over the next few tracks like, you know, meet me where I'm at, wake me up, surprise me. That's why the first word is surprise, right? Cause it's like, you know, there's a lot of intentionality in all of the words that are used throughout the project. But I think the first few words of the first verse of any song is like, the most important thing. And I feel like some people just felt like they weren't. They hadn't seen me in a long time. Like, even though I've been with me the whole time, I reckon recognize that some people felt the absence. So I think the intention. Once I decided what the, you know, what it was gonna be, that it was gonna be the Starside intro, I really wanted to, like, focus on words and rap about words. Like, that's what I've been doing. For the last songs before the album came out, I was doing, like, a series of, like, little singles that would come out and I look back on it. A lot of those songs are about creating, you know, namely, like, Buried Alive and Child of God especially are both about the process of writing and getting myself to a space where I feel comfortable writing and recognizing the importance or the purpose or the power behind my pen. And it's placed in a way where it makes it relatable and it talks about confidence and talks about all these other things so people don't really think about it. But I'm really, like, coaching myself through writing while writing about writing. And I think the intro to Starline, it really shows the, you know, some of my Greatest rhymes, like, I think, but also, like, it talks about the importance of staying in your craft, how important my voice is to even people like Lauryn Hill, Ms. Lauryn Hill, and, you know, and some of the things that I've been going through in the years reasons, you know, why it's taken so long, and the things that I've had to overcome. So before I get you to the Negro problem or no more old men or just a drop or letters or any of the things that, you know, even tree any of the real subject matter of the album, I have to, like, reveal myself before I start to reveal things. So I think that's the intention behind it of that intro is like, how do I set the stage without, like, giving away the whole project?
- [27:22]
Cole Kushna
So was the writing about writing? Like, did you experience writing block, Like a writer's block in that six years? Or, like, was that kind of find yourself and find your pen again?
- [27:32]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, I think I. What I. I don't know that I ever had a real block. I created and created it was, you know, having the confidence in what I was writing and believing in myself enough to publish the work was, like, the biggest battle. And I think also the content was an issue because it's like, what do I rap about? You know, there's a point where I'm really angry. I'm rapping about my, you know, just, you know, people trying to fuck me over. Like, I'm rapping about, you know, romance or the problems in romance, and I'm, you know, experiencing and, like, all these other things that didn't feel realized enough or. Or feel. Felt a lot like confusion. Before I traveled to Ghana, before I picked up a camera and started, like, dabbling at other art spaces. And so I think when I did leave and go to Ghana and did start, you know, going to the art fairs and stuff, the stuff that I eventually started writing was about, like I said, regaining my confidence in my pen, getting a song done, you know, not being afraid to vocalize the hard parts and the power that comes with being fearless and having a voice.
- [28:58]
Cole Kushna
Right. Yeah. So the first mention of Starr on. On the album is. So you tell the story about getting Ms. Lauryn Hill's text in this kind of. I know you said you kind of cried when you. When you. When you read it, and her kind of being disappointed seeing you not focusing so much on your art, but then you kind of frame that as, like you say, sometimes a teardrop can make your heart smile Looking for a sign and he sends a star shout she.
- [29:27]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
See Me on the voice again. But this the end of the road. Like boys to men. You better use your pen, baby. Use your heart, child. Where's your viewpoint? Where's your art style? Sometimes a teardrop can make your heart smile Looking for a sign and he sends a star shout.
- [29:41]
Cole Kushna
For me, that seems like the inciting incident that. That kind of accelerates the entire album was this kind of transformative text from Elder, you know, from someone in your lineage, and then kind of it develops from there. But I like that it's framed. So you're talking about when you say looking for a sign, he sends a star shower, is that in reference to the text?
- [30:04]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, the. It's basically saying, like, you said, like, I. You look, you ask God for a sign and he over delivers is basically what I'm saying. It also refers to, like you said, the ancestral veneration of, you know, I have all of these ancestors that, you know, some of them living that, you know, I am of the lineage of that are, you know, ultimately working towards, you know, whatever's best for me and best for our collective goal. And I think, you know, a star shower in this context is referring to, like a meteor shower. So it's like, I ask for one sign, and God sends a fleet of stars my way. And I think I was like, you know, half. Halfway working on my music when she was. When she was saying this stuff. So it wasn't like she was wrong at all. It wasn't like, oh, I'm doing both as much as I can. It was kind of like, you know, and I think, like, the way that she put it, it was very, very kind and very, very, like, you know, understanding and like, very human. It wasn't like she was scolding me or like, you know, making it light either. It was like, this is a. Something important and serious I need to tell you. And, you know, and I still love you and I still understand that we're human beings. We got to make money and we got to do this and we got to do that. And I even understand that some of your artistic, you know, vision and power comes out in you being on the show. Like, she was like, I'm sure that you get, you know, a. A space to be artistic, but, like, your purpose. Like, where's your viewpoint?
- [31:50]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [31:51]
Chance the Rapper
In everything that's going on. What is your viewpoint? And how do you articulate that? Because we can't get that from anybody else. And I was just like, it was empowering and also made me just question my decisions for a second. You Know what I'm saying? But I think, like, when I was trying. When I started really trying to craft the story, I looked a lot at to important story formats in writing, which is the hero's journey and story circle, which I learned from Dan Harmon. And they basically tell the same thing. But there's usually like a propelling moment, usually dealing with an ancestor. If you look at Star wars, like when he meets Yoda or when he meets Obi Wan, there's somebody that's gotta give you the knowledge and give you.
- [32:38]
Cole Kushna
The meeting the mentor. It's called, I think, meeting the mentor.
- [32:40]
Chance the Rapper
You know, man, writer. You know what I'm. So I created my own thing called the warrior story, which is kind of like the unlike. What is it? The untrustworthy narrator or the unreliable narrator, where it's like, these are all gonna be. I'm not gonna be trying to be objectively preachy and telling and telling it. I'm also not gonna be, you know, it's not like my story is super, super clean, but I'm also going to like, I'm giving it to you. As a warrior would tell their story as opposed to the hero's journey. I am still removing myself from being the first person, but when I do speak in first person, I speak about myself as if I'm a legendary character. And I think you get that in certain moments in the intro, certain moments in space and time and in other songs. But yeah, that's that meeting the mentor moment of like, she set me out on the journey.
- [33:33]
Cole Kushna
That's cool. That's really cool to hear. Well, then you also. So the first half of the first verse kind of addresses like the restart. This is, you know, addressing the album kind of specifically. But then second half of the verse, you kind of take it back to the start of your career. And you mention another elder in Brother.
- [33:50]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Mike, Disco Day Walker. I'm a sun dweller Until I met a brother Mike he said, young fella, everybody dies. Some write poems. So I raised my right arm and I said, right on.
- [34:00]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [34:01]
Cole Kushna
Who is the one that like, sounds like got you into writing in the first place. So you're kind of like, it's like we go back to the start, back to the go, but also way back to the go. And establishing the motif of elders that essentially is in like, almost every single song. But hearing you say co star of your own album makes total sense to me. Like, that's a great framing for it. Okay, so we get to the chorus. It's a great sample. Cleo Soul Life Will Be sample recent song 2023 I'm curious about. Well, I recently said. I actually saw today in your little mini interview with Jeremy Hecht said there was originally, like, a Michael Jackson sample that didn't get cleared. So this one came in later.
- [34:56]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, very late.
- [34:58]
Cole Kushna
Oh, really?
- [34:58]
Chance the Rapper
Oh, no.
- [34:59]
Cole Kushna
Sorry.
- [34:59]
Chance the Rapper
So the Cleo Soul sample was always there, right?
- [35:02]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [35:02]
Chance the Rapper
That was the. That was the base of it. It started with the kick drum that I made in the. In that Cleo Soul sample, which goes through the Prismizer. And I. I've been a fan of Cleo Soul forever since from the Salt days. And there's another song called Damn, I Can't Remember Never Feel Fear, which is like my theme song. So. Shout out to Salt for making some of the best music I've ever heard in my life. But her vocals have always just been like. Felt like a part of a thematic thing for me, just going through life. And her voice is very empowering. It's also very soft. She's an amazing artist. I could talk about Cleo Soul all day. When I heard the original Life Will Be her song, I was on my way to a roller skating rink with one of my managers, and I was like, this is gonna be. I'm gonna rap over this. Like, this is gonna be the intro to my album. Because she's saying, life will be. You know, as in, like, life is going to do what it will do. Just keep believing in yourself. That goes back to the. You know, the confidence in writing and publishing stuff. But the Michael Jackson sample was a sample that I put over it.
- [36:16]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [36:16]
Chance the Rapper
Only on the hook, so the hooks didn't have. Now the hook is Put on that full armor. Learn that from my mama. She said life will be. Separate the waters. There's a fleet of ocean liners starside, which I love those lyrics. But originally it would. It'd be a key change. And then the Michael Jackson sample is. Oh, shit. What is the song called? It's the.
- [36:43]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Could it be I stayed away too.
- [36:45]
Chance the Rapper
Long Did I leave your mind when I was gone? And it really. Where you are I want to be where you are and it just felt thematically like it fit so well because it was. He's basically talking about was I missed in my absence, you know, like, it felt really like a good. Like, Right. In that same tone of, like, surprise.
- [37:06]
Cole Kushna
Right?
- [37:07]
Chance the Rapper
It's the boy who lives. Yeah.
- [37:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [37:08]
Chance the Rapper
But we went through a lot of trying to get it cleared, and a lot of people have really helped out a lot. Shout out to Rodney Jerkins. Shout out to Jody Gerson, shout out to the entire Michael Jackson estate. Everybody tried to make it happen, but it's just a lot of red tape when it comes to sampling anything with Mike on it. And so we got really down to the wire. Like, I would say a week and a half or two weeks before the album came out. And I was still, you know, calling people all day, every day, like, going through it, trying to get this thing. And in that time, in those last two weeks, there was a bunch of other versions that got made, you know, with the same kick drum pattern but with other samples. And. And at one point, we took the Cleo soul sample out, kept the kick drum, and did Uma says by Yassin Bey, formerly Mos Def. And that version is super raw. I was just listening to it yesterday. I was like, damn, this is so cold. But it was so different from the Cleo soul thing that I was just like, I feel like I'm taking it too far in another direction. So I ended up last minute just like, redoing the drums for the hook and adding that, you know, the refrain that I was singing earlier.
- [38:16]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [38:17]
Chance the Rapper
And it worked out for the best. But that the. The Michael Jackson chop I did myself, like, I'm low key, super decent on npc, and the chop was, like, literally brilliant. Like, it was so fi.
- [38:29]
Cole Kushna
But you said it was a key change, too.
- [38:31]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, so the. Yeah, I can't remember the keys that. That it's in, but it would, like, transpose down to so that it stayed in key with the Michael Jackson. That was the thing. I didn't want to, like, change his right vocal, but it was in a different key to the song.
- [38:43]
Cole Kushna
Okay, okay. So verse two, so you reference your mom in the chorus, but also in verse two, you develop a new or really introduce it for the first time on the album. Another iteration of the star.
- [38:59]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Look, mama, I seen a star Big and pretty and it ain't that far Bright and bold and black like me and it's right in the mirror I'm.
- [39:07]
Cole Kushna
Shining heart this is speaking to self confidence. Reinvigorating yourself with self confidence. Also speaking to another elder. So already we have three of the elders established. I love how you addressed the big day. It was like one of my fears coming into the album was like, is this just going to be an album about the last album and all? You know, it was like, you. You hear that all the time, where it's, like, too meta in its own, like. Yeah, and I love the three went platinum. The one went diamond. I had An F minus, but that's behind us.
- [39:38]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
The three went platinum, the one went diamond. I had an F minus, but that's behind us. My pen on paper worth millions of dollars Shout out to the fact that they still ain't signed up.
- [39:47]
Cole Kushna
So the framing of F minus, I love, because it's like, that's a grade given out by someone else. And it's like you were given a grade quote, unquote.
- [39:57]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [39:57]
Cole Kushna
But it's like, that's not the reality.
- [39:59]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [40:00]
Cole Kushna
Of the. Of it.
- [40:00]
Chance the Rapper
I'm glad you caught that.
- [40:01]
Cole Kushna
And it's like. But then it. Well, it ties into the other, would you say, misdiagnosis diagnosis, which is like, part. It feels like part of that.
- [40:09]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [40:10]
Cole Kushna
So I love. I just love that it was like. And you literally say, that's behind us. Like, this album's not going to be that.
- [40:15]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [40:16]
Cole Kushna
And like, so I. When I heard that the first time, I was like, that's clever. Like, the perfect way to just.
- [40:22]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, let's get that out the way.
- [40:23]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [40:24]
Chance the Rapper
You know, I think, like, I really struggled in school, like, post fifth or sixth grade, up until fourth grade, I was, like, considered one of the smart kids. Right. And in fourth grade was when I was moved into the LDMBD classes, which is the learning disorder and behavioral disorder classes. And it really did something to my confidence to be viewed in a different way and to be separated or isolated that way. And throughout high school, I kind of just, like, fully like, removed myself from school. Like, I didn't go to school really my whole junior year or sophomore year. And. And just, like, when I. I would be asked to speak to the reasons why I wasn't showing up to school or why I wasn't, you know, participating in class, I could really, like, pontificate on that for a long time. Like, I could. It would be ironic to people how, well, I could explain the uselessness of school but would not, you know, apply myself to prove that I was, you know, academically there in class. And this, like, form of being, like, misgraded or misrepresented or misdiagnosed was something that I experienced early on in school where, like, the. The view that my teachers had of me was not the same, you know, way I saw myself. And so I think, like, I do love that F minus that's behind us because it's like, I. I'm. I've never been an F minus. You know what I'm saying? But like, you said this out outside grading, like, this. This valuation system that is really just arbitrary is Something that follows kids and, like, follows people. And I. I'm like, you know, at the end of the day, like, I am just who I am. You know what I'm saying? Like, I. I see the star that's in the mirror. I see, you know, the things that I've been able to resolve through and, like, you know, still show up through. And I know that that's not F minus. F minus. Not even a real great, you know, like, nigga giving you F minus is like just saying fuck you. You know what I'm saying?
- [42:55]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that leads me to thinking, like, do you have little bars like that that you work in? Diverse. Like, what's your writing process like? Is it kind of more fluid or do you have, like, little one liners you kind of work into a full piece?
- [43:10]
Chance the Rapper
It's very rare that I have, like, I. Every once in a while I will, like, come up with a bar while I'm just, like, chilling or hanging or saying something funny. And I'll put it in my notes. They never, like, I can never fit them in. Every once in a while I try, but it doesn't ever really work out that well. Sometimes I do have stuff that sparks an entire song. I always say, you know, no problems. Like the. If one more label trying to stop me, it's gonna be some dreadhead in your lobby. Somebody was just saying, like, walking around saying it because I knew I was gonna put it in a song. But for the album, a lot of it is either punch cut or meaning, like, standing up at the mic and writing it on the microphone, literally, or written in a notebook with, like, a title or a theme already in mind. And so I think, like, that first verse is such an origin story with a little bit of, like, the themes of the album fit in, like, you know, the, you know, the chain or diamond motif, the, you know, the very specific guns that I have. Like, all of that stuff is, like, meant to show power and foreshadow the album. But a lot of it is an origin story of how, you know, how the album came to be, how I didn't ever feel like showing up in class. And brother Mike was the first person to see me as a kid and go, like, oh, you're a genius. Like, this is where your skill set would be best utilized. I feel like when I. When I. By the time that I got to the second verse, which was a very different second verse originally, it was a lot more about revolution and liberation and themes of the album, and I ended up changing it. But Once I got to that second verse, and I'm like, you know, really trying to explain, you know, being backdoored, you know, the relationship with me and my bm, how my money's been, and then, you know, furthering it into, you know, actually speaking on the big day. And receptionist, it was like, this is a perfect time to continue this theme of, like, of misgrading and looking back on the past as, like, this is what really happened and this is what really did not happen, you know?
- [45:22]
Cole Kushna
Right, right. Yeah. And then within the framework of the album, it's like, people dim your light, but also, like, you rediscovering it, or. Okay, so then we get to the outro where it's the first of a handful of Richard Pryor excerpts that are, I think. Are they all pulled from the wattstack concert documentary?
- [45:42]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, all of us have something to say, but some are never heard. Over seven years ago, the people of Watts stood together, demanded to be heard.
- [45:52]
Cole Kushna
So that seems, like, obviously very intentional. So why maybe contextualize what Watt Stack was for people? And then, like, why did you want to pull from that?
- [46:01]
Chance the Rapper
So that's kind of the backdrop of the album. Wattstacks was a documentary film about a concert that took place in the 70s. Basically, there were this. There were these riots that took place in Watson, the surrounding areas in California in the 70s in reaction and rebellion to this crazy police brutality that was going on. And the city burned and they rioted like most black metropolitan areas do when they're being oppressed by the police or the state. And years later, Stax Records CEO decided to do a benefit concert to raise the spirits of these people that were living in the fallout of riots. Like, if, in case you didn't know, typically after riots happen, there is some sweeping legislation that, like, semi or pseudo addresses the concerns of the community, but there's never really a real rebuilding process. Like, a lot of the times, black people continue to live in those conditions of, like, you know, foreclosed homes, burnt down buildings, you know, vacant lots afterwards. And Stax Records got a bunch of, like, the top musicians and gospel and in R and B, the biggest star and funniest comedian in the world, Richard Pryor and a few others, to stage this concert to, again, lift the spirits of the people. And they documented it. And Richard Pryor, the entire movie, kind of like, shows up intermittently to, like, give some. I don't even want to call them jokes. Like, he's given, like, you know, just accounts of life in a humorous way on how black life was in the 70s. And eerily, how it still is today. How do you accidentally shoot a nigga.
- [47:45]
Cole Kushna
Six times in the chest?
- [47:47]
Chance the Rapper
Well, my gun fell and just crazy. I just really thought that, you know, going into what we're going into, you know, as. As a people in the hands of the state as it exists, I knew that, that. That. That history was applicable and knew that it. A lot of the stuff that they're getting people saying, because it's not just Richard Pryor speaking, it's also, like, people in the neighborhood, like in Watts, barbershops. In barbershops. Some of them are, you know, war veterans, Some of them are, you know, pimps. Some of them are hustlers, Some of them are doctors. Some of them are, you know, but these are just people. And they're speaking in ways that really, really relate to what's going on right now. And so I thought, you know, I also like Richard and Dave Chappelle. Dave Chappelle's been my mentor since I was 22. And Richard and Dave both have a similar story in that the pressures of Hollywood and the corruption of Hollywood at some point tried to push them out. And they both had transformative trips to the continent, to Africa, at different points in their lives. That, like I said, was transformative to the point that it's almost like a different chapter in their career post that move. And so Ghana was so transformative to me that I always felt like a. You know, I ended up bringing Dave to Ghana the next year to come speak at the university. And he spoke to a lot of those. To a lot of, like, what that experience does for people. And, you know, his goat was Richard Pryor. And so, like, I think there's like a through line between the three of us in terms of how we observe things, how we speak on them, how much we celebrate the written word, how much we. We celebrate being an orator. That, like, you know, just made sense.
- [49:46]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I love that. That works really well. That just ties kind of threads part of the threading of the album. So then we get to ride this.
- [49:53]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
For all the times now I'm the captain. You was feeling it Trust you gonna be all right we gonna be all right but if they wanna fight, it's.
- [50:05]
Chance the Rapper
Gonna be a fight.
- [50:06]
Cole Kushna
The song is fucking great. Okay. Love this song. So the Justin back there, he says one of his favorite songs of the year. But again, it's like, there's a. There's a few of these songs that's like, they sound one way, but then when you start looking closer yeah, there's like, the layers start to reveal themselves because it's like, it feels like a fun. I mean, it is a fun song. But then when you start to look at like the. The verses, it's all about this, like. So this is where you formally kind of framework the album and this journey as a ride building off of the car, the. The boat motif. But it's also like an act of mobilizing. I love the. The opening verse is kind of perfect.
- [50:53]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Diamonds on my birthstone Sometimes it snows in April. If I get the lighting right, I'm shooting out a rainbow coalition. That's a soul intention. That's the main goal. Cold under pressure, turning tommies in a dangle.
- [51:08]
Cole Kushna
So maybe we could go through it.
- [51:11]
Chance the Rapper
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Cole Kushna
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Chance the Rapper
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- [52:42]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [52:42]
Cole Kushna
So diamonds are my birth. We didn't talk about the Roy G Biv line from the opening one, but diamonds is a motif throughout the album.
- [52:48]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, diamonds for sure.
- [52:49]
Cole Kushna
You call back to it here. Diamonds are my birthstone. Sometimes it snows in April. You did a great Instagram breakdown of this, but. And then you establish if I get the lighting right. I'm shooting out a rainbow. Rainbow's coming up a few times on the albums, too, so. And then you do. I had to look this up. So when you say I'm shooting out a rainbow, which is its own phrase, but then you say coalition, and the next line is, this is called an in jab. Solipsis is what it is. But you say that's a sole extension. That's the main goal. So you want. You mind just breaking down some of that for me?
- [53:22]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. So I call it being subtly subversive. I feel like you can either when it comes to making a critical analysis of, like, the world or the systems that are at play. Like, you can either be subtle in critiquing it and people will like it and listen to it, or you could be overt and controversial and it might not be as enjoyable and more of, like a learning experience. And so I didn't want to be teaching or preaching as much as I wanted to be giving people stuff that they could listen to. And then if they want to dive deeper, the more that they listen to it or look at it or read it or whatever, the more they can pull from it. And so I think the diamonds motif that's throughout the album that comes from before the album was even made. I had this. I learned about the. Have you ever heard of the Cullinan diamond? It's the world's largest diamond that was found, I think, in South Africa. And because South Africa is a part of the Commonwealth, the Queen of England took it in like the 40s or something. And it's just like this giant diamond that has, like, invaluable worth. Like, it's trillion dollar diamond, right? But it's like attached to a royal crown somewhere in England right now, though it could do wonders for the country of South Africa. And so one of the early, like, motifs that's still in a few songs, but definitely not as heavy as used to be, is like this. This heist theme that we're on a heist. And you hear it in a lot of the songs that came out before the project. But, like, we're. We're like basically on a job and we're subtly trying to, you know, repatriate items, you know, you know, gain knowledge and move under the radar. And so the diamonds thing stayed through the project. Diamonds are actually my birthstone because I was born in April. But then once we get into the. Sometimes it snows in April. If I get the lighting right, I'm shooting out a rainbow I'm basically saying, if I get the spotlight, if I get the moment of fame, these are the things that I'm going to produce. And so the rainbow is obviously refracted. Light through a prism will create the. Create the rainbow look. But the Rainbow Coalition was an organization started by Fred Hampton in Chicago in the 70s or late 60s, early 70s, I think that was a multiracial coalition that was built up of union workers, separatists, weirdly enough, some young gangs like the Young Lords. And basically they were a socialist revolution group that was working to get fair wages and unionize certain spaces. And a lot of people say that was the greatest threat that Fred Hampton presented to the country. And so that's kind of the thesis right there is I'm trying to build a rainbow coalition. It's the first time that I say it in the project because I didn't want to try and do the. The thesis on the first song. But I think like, word association in my brain works kind of differently. Where I'm. I don't think that rhymes necessarily. Only is presented by matching vowel sounds or mat. Sometimes it's about the number of syllables, right? Sometimes it's, you know, like in bar rhymes where like, you know, the last word doesn't have to rhyme. But if, you know, within that first stanza, I say enough vowels that rhyme, like those two bars will match. And so I think associating, going word by word, my brain goes, diamonds are my birthstone. That line used to be diamonds are my birthstone. Diamonds are my birthright. Which was like again, going back to repatriating items. But I went, diamonds on my birthstone. Sometimes it snows in April. Cause my mind immediately goes to diamonds is ice. You know, sometimes it snows in April is made by Prince in the Revolution. Prince was a staunch advocate for, you know, self determination and independence in the industry, like fighting against it. And you know, and sometimes it does snow in April. So I get that out the way. And then from there it's like, okay, how long can I carry this on? If I get the lighting right, I'm shooting out a rainbow. I'm still within that same scheme, right? And then by the time I get to Rainbow Coalition, then I can just. Now I'm now already in a scheme that still sounds like I'm just rapping about ice and just sounds like I'm rapping about being tough. But if you look at it word by word, you can start to break down some of the action that I'm asking for.
- [58:09]
Cole Kushna
Then the next, the next stanza or part of the verse is so cool. Is it. Is it okay if I read your lyrics? Is it cringe for you to hear me? Okay, so you said cool under pressure. So again, building on the ice thing snowing in April, terminating Tommy's into Django, Samos into Rambos dumping ammos into tangos. Like all the internal rhymes there, like so good. Make the the gang of Milligan make sure they move militant. So this is. I feel like there's the a militant theme throughout the entire project, which gets established here.
- [58:44]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Cold under pressure turning tommies in the Django sambos and the Rambos dumping ammo on When a tango make the gang a mill again make sure they move militant. This for all my gullas I'mma get us off this gill again just for all the times Now I'm the captain. You was feeling in it, right? Just enjoy the ride.
- [59:03]
Cole Kushna
This line I love. This is all for all for. My goal is I'm going get us off this Gilligan. That's a bar. So good.
- [59:10]
Chance the Rapper
That's a bar.
- [59:11]
Cole Kushna
And then you flip it to the this for all the times. Now I'm the captain you was filling in. So what's that movie called?
- [59:16]
Chance the Rapper
Your Captain Phillips starring Tom Hanks. Yeah, so, like, there's like some. I started this thing in my phone called a perfectrospective analysis, which was like all of the different motifs I was gonna use, the different ad libs I was gonna use, like all of these things that like, going into the project that I wanted to use. And some of them were like new words that I was gonna try and, you know, put into the ether. And so there's an old phrase called an Uncle Tom, which like, refers to somebody that's overly subservient or against the needs of their people. And it's like a really, really derogatory term that black folks use against other black folks, but sometimes in, you know, call for situations. And so I was. I had a lot of songs where I was calling motherfuckers tommies and toms. But in this case, just like I said earlier in the verse, I think I say turning Tommy's into Djangos.
- [60:15]
Cole Kushna
Oh, really?
- [60:16]
Chance the Rapper
That's word association. So I'm saying Tommy's in the Django's meaning making these Uncle Tom's into militants. But when I say coal under pressure, I'm saying, you know, they say pressure makes diamonds out of coal. Cole is also the name of the best friend of Tommy on this show called Martin.
- [60:39]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [60:40]
Chance the Rapper
Tommy is the one that never has a job. So Once I say Cole under pressure, my brain is immediately saying, you gotta say something about Tommy. Okay? Cole under pressure. Tommy's in the Djangos, Sambo's in the Rambos. Ammo into tangos. So now we're not transforming things anymore. We're saying we're gonna actually put live rounds into targets. And I think, like, my brain is like, okay, you used into too many times in the same way. N2 is transformative, but it's also, you know, you know, impressing upon.
- [61:13]
Cole Kushna
It's a beautiful part of the song. Then verse two, you make your first reference to Noah. So you say, a whole lot of goats, but it's only one boat. Okay, we gotta talk about the boat. Yeah, but then you say, and it's only one Noah. You know what I mean? So bitch getting the whip. So again, kind of gathering the troops, getting everyone on the ship. The boat thing was so cool when I figured out, well, you say it later in the album, but best of all time.
- [61:36]
Chance the Rapper
Best of all time.
- [61:37]
Cole Kushna
But obviously boat is playing into the motif of the album. It's like a perfect little self description there. And then I have a question about the Noah, but, like, when did the boat thing happen?
- [61:48]
Chance the Rapper
That was early in the recording process. I have, like, two songs called Boat Freestyle that are, like, me talking about being the best. So I feel like the goat thing in rap is like a conversation that's always going on. And, you know, we have numerous goats. Most people would say, like, there's multiple goats. Like. And for me, I can agree that there are multiple greats because to me, greatness and goodness are different. And being the best is different from being great. Greatness is about scale and being the best is about potency. So it's like, you know, Alexander the Great was great because he. Not because he was a good person. He did terrible things. But the scale at which he operated, the amount of conquest that he went on, was at a great scale. It was largely impactful to many people. But then best is like, you know, the best basketball player might not have never went to the NBA because they weren't presented all the same opportunities. They weren't, you know, seen in the same light. They didn't have the same impact. But just in, you know, in actually playing basketball technically, you know, they might be the best. And so I started to just look at the works that I was creating and the. And what was going on within the project, and I'm like, I am the best when it comes to, like, pen to paper, you know, what I'm Saying, like, in terms of the scale of what I can accomplish, like, sometimes it's just scalable because I'm not always necessarily gonna be presented the same opportunities as everyone else. No one is. You know, your story, you know, is. You know, it's all about how you tell it. Like, I think Terence Crawford is the best of all time. You know what I'm saying? Cause he's just incredibly skilled, but he's also a great. Because of the story that he was able to put together. Like, you have to put together a story of greatness. You have to go on that journey to achieve greatness. But the skill level, like, is. Is something that's just fact. You know what I mean?
- [64:02]
Cole Kushna
Right, right, right. Okay, a question about the. The story of Noah and how it relates to the project. It might just be one of my wild conspiracy theories, but is there a reason it was 17 songs? Significant about. Was unintentional anyway. Symbolic?
- [64:21]
Chance the Rapper
No, not really.
- [64:23]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
I did the. I did.
- [64:25]
Chance the Rapper
It was supposed to be 16 songs.
- [64:27]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [64:27]
Chance the Rapper
Like, that was the goal forever. And we were trying to fit it into there. And then pretty came at the last minute. That was the one that made a 17.
- [64:33]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Because it's. And it just happens to be an hour and seven minutes long. So there's two seventeens. And in. The story of Noah, flood begins on the 17th day. The ark rests on the 17th day. I'm thinking boat. I'm thinking ark. I'm thinking flood.
- [64:48]
Chance the Rapper
I would be too crucial if I.
- [64:50]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Was able to do that.
- [64:51]
Chance the Rapper
I'll be next up. I would be too good. Y' all have to back me up.
- [64:54]
Cole Kushna
Okay. All right. Okay. The do or Die feature was an inspired and brilliant choice.
- [65:02]
Chance the Rapper
Yo, thank you.
- [65:16]
Cole Kushna
When I heard them come on the track for the first time, I was like, I'm 42. So I. I grew up on do or Die and Twista and these guys. So when I. But frankly, I haven't. You know, no offense, I haven't thought about them in years. I don't really hear their music all that. That much. But when I. It just brought me back to this warm nostalgia place. And so when I heard them. You kind of recontextualizing them, and then I didn't realize they're from Chicago. And so there's this kind of generational baton interaction happening here again, tying into this album. Long theme of elders. Yeah, I guess, maybe, like, did you hear the beat and think, like, they need to be on this song or. Where did that come from?
- [65:59]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, I think it came as a later idea. I found that sample on some random TikTok and like, obviously the one way sample is super famous, but deciding to use it was just me scrolling on Tick Tock one day and I'm like, immediately recorded the sample and sampled it off TikTok. Over time I started thinking about different people that I wanted on it. There was a point where I wanted Nelly on it, there was a point where I wanted juvenile on it. And then at one point I was like, I want Twist to and do or Die. And so what's funny is I actually got both of those features relatively around the same time. I got twisted verse first, then I got do or Die. And it was kind of like a game time decision of like what's gonna be best for the record. Because I do want this to be my single. Like, I think that there's a lot of songs that could be a single, but this one I feel like has all the words that I want to be said on radio and it also has the vibe that I would want to hear on radio. So I at the last minute was like, this song would be strongest if I can, you know, put it out there with me and do or Die, who the world has never seen me collaborate with, who are real architects of like the Chicago sound and style. They, you know, to me kind of like invented the pimp rap or like the like slick talking like Cadillac, you know, speed rap shit and. And then come later with a twister remix because that'll like, you know, connect all the dots for people. And it ended up working out just like that. Just that way with DJ Ferris who's like our Michael Jordan, like he's the goat. He. He broke the record at radio and got a great response from it. And it's just like, I don't know, it's like you said this, the movement, right, is like multi generational. So like we are connected to the unia. We're connected to the civil rights movement and churches, we're connected to the Panthers, we're connected to move. We're connected to every movement that that is pushing towards liberation. Like we're all on that same boat and we just pass on tools and trades and understandings of the game to the next generation. So I think it was really important to have do or Die there because then it also makes more sense for me to have Baby Chief do it on there, you know what I mean? It's multi generational from Chicago, but much.
- [68:27]
Cole Kushna
Younger the generation below you and you becoming that elder to him, so to speak. Well, that gets us perfectly into no more old men. Because by the time we get to this point in the album, just track three, you've already established all these kind of black north stars. You've established the elders ancestral theme symbolized in the previous track, do or Die. And then there's the fear of these stars burning out.
- [68:51]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
They say shy don't dance no more and the little kids don't got a chance no more they ain't even trying.
- [68:57]
Chance the Rapper
To free the old.
- [69:02]
Cole Kushna
I guess maybe. Where did the genesis of this song come from? It's very personal. Talk about your father, another elder. It's maybe my song of the year. It's like, it's. It's a really powerful song.
- [69:14]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, I think a song of the year too. Yeah, I. I hope this song, the. It. It started as a poem by my cousin Nikki Tanikia Carpenter. She's amazingly talented in 50 different things, but I think she's one of the poets of the generation. And she's. She has a poem called. I think it's called no Grandfathers in Chicago from about five years ago. And it. And it's basically just speaking on how, you know, premature death due to gun violence will one day have like a visible effect in that a lot of these people that die like that get killed in Chicago, have a kid or have two kids and the kids are like infants. And so as this median age of death gets lower and lower, one day we won't have, you know, that older knowledge and wisdom that's able to be passed down. And it was just super profound to me. Like some of the, like the lessons that grandfathers teach, some of the moments that she put in the words that I was just like, this is ill. But the one thing is just being honest. Nikki's a girl and so she has a specific, like, you know, important perspective on it. But I'm a boy. And so the lessons of boyhood, the parts of patriarchy that, that are positive, that, you know, girls may not be able to experience or experience in the same way, is something that I felt like I really needed to speak to. And so I look at the song as a. As an extension of her poem and just discussing like these important lessons of boyhood. Because we all know now we've had time to learn and unlearn that, like there is, you know, negative or even poisonous patriarchy and black patriarchy. But at some point we gotta have a discussion about the important parts. Like what is positive boyhood? What does it look like to have these certain lessons? And so I really get into it's my favorite. I think it's my best writing, to be honest. Like, and I love letters too. I love the speed of love. I think there's a lot of great writing on it. But in terms of like, I really learned a lot from the painters. I was around when I went to Venice Biennale and I was around all of these like, you know, world class artists and got to see them not even just speak about their own art, but also explain to me other people's art where it's like, you know, detail, sensory detail. The things that you can, you know, not just hear, but you want people to see something, you want people to smell something. So even using terms like, you know, saying cigars on a song give gives you like a sensory detail or describing the color or the sound of something. Clippers buzzing yeah, like those things, they activate something in the mind.
- [72:27]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Clippers buzzing Crying grand baby boy cousin the first cut Little man quit all that fussing Got the father may love you, the world doesn't. That's how I learned to put my dukes up and play the dozens.
- [72:38]
Chance the Rapper
I think this is like my most. I really wanted to do a paint, not a painting, but a song that felt like a painting by Annie Lee. She's. Anybody that's watching this, please look up Annie Lee. Blue Monday. I wanted it to feel like black life and not in like a fetishizing way and not from otherizing way, but like just really celebrating the important things that we get. And I'm most proud of it because I invented with this song the four black commandments. Like, we grew up on, like a lot of my friends, us 90s babies, we grew up on the 10 crack commandments. And a lot of us never sold crack, but we all been black this whole time, so it's like we need that, right?
- [73:18]
Cole Kushna
Okay, that. Okay, so there's three moments on the album that you get chills. This being one of them. It's the moment you just set up the four black commandments, not only because it's you, because we have this elder's theme established. And then you are now taking on the role of the elder and immortalizing these commandments in song. But then I don't know whose idea was, but to save the strings for this moment. Yeah, chills every single time because your voice rises and then the strings come in behind you. And it's like production meets words meets intention. Like it meets theme. And it's like it's such a brilliant moment.
- [73:58]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Where's your instincts? Act like you forgot it's the four black Commandments, man, you know how we rock.
- [74:03]
Chance the Rapper
It goes.
- [74:04]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
One, watch your health, that's your wealth. Two, watch your brother, that's yourself. Three, watch your home, that's your door. Four, if they want it, we go to war.
- [74:14]
Cole Kushna
It's like chills every single time.
- [74:16]
Chance the Rapper
Yo. Thank you. Shout out to Casey. That's who put them strings on.
- [74:19]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Yeah. And just to save them. There's no strings. Until that moment.
- [74:23]
Chance the Rapper
That's my idea.
- [74:24]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Yeah. It's like. It's really beautiful. Okay, then I got. I got to get some explanation on the. Because of the. After the commandments, you say this really beautiful passage. In the distant future, the twilight of our lives in the distant future, the.
- [74:42]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Twilight of our lives contains all the laughs and highlights of our lives, the knowledge that can help a young man go forth for the day. You don't see these old men no more.
- [74:51]
Cole Kushna
Okay, Go ahead.
- [74:52]
Chance the Rapper
In a distant future, which is important to say, like, not. Not anytime soon, but in. In a distant future, the twilight of our lives, meaning that that's how they describe the. The ending, like the ending years of your life that contains all the highlights of our lives. I'm gonna say it the way that it's actually written. In the distant future. In a distant future, the twilight of our lives contains all the laughs and highlights of our lives, the knowledge that can help a young man go forth for the day we don't see these old men no more. And it's speaking to that. That point I was making earlier and that we have tools that we will gain over the course of this life that we'll build. We'll make our own tools towards, you know, the better future. We're the heroes of our future. And then at some point, we have to pass those down so that, you know, I was really young. I was really young when my dad taught me, you know, the code to the safe, how to load the gun, how to protect my home if something happens. And you have to have those moments, that passing of a torch and, you know, like, a serious human moment where you set up the next generation to fight the battles that they're gonna have to fight. And I think when we look at life as, like, you know, life is meant to be short or, you know, I mean, D' Angelo just passed, like, he's 51. I think, like, for black men, it's not just gun violence. It's also, you know, health. It's also environmental racism. It's also, you know, medical malpractice. It's also heartbreak. That's one of My favorite lines on the song is they. They sleep in separate rooms for years when their hearts broke. So in case somebody. What is it? Sleep in separate rooms for years when their hearts broke. So at least somebody's there if they start stroke like black folks. I've seen it plenty of times in my family and in other families, like some of the older generation families, you will notice your aunt and your uncle got two separate rooms in the same house. One of them lives in the basement, one lives on the top floor. And then you get older, you realize, oh, they're kind of like they're together, but they're not really together. And then once you start to question it, you realize, like, a lot of black folk don't want to go through the divorce. Whether it's for religious reasons, whether it's financial decision, whether it's, you know, just for the kids. But I mean, you see it when the kids are all grown, nobody even lives at the house anymore. It's just them too. But they live in two different parts. But it's because they have this pact of love that I would rather keep this home intact for the future generations and for the love that we have for each other so that you're not. You're not gonna die alone. We old as hell. You know what I mean? But that kind of like, even that conversation, that understanding, not saying that, that's perfect. Not saying that, like. Cause I'm sure that there's people that like. And I would agree to a certain extent, like, it's better to be happy and alone than to be miserable and together. But some of these people weren't necessarily miserable. They had made peace with the plans that they had made for their lives. So I think, like, you know, having. Having an understanding of what are the factors or key causes of this premature death, and also celebrating the reasons why we need elders and kind of naming some of the issues is like, it's just flawless victory to me. For me, that's what I look for.
- [78:37]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Okay, so then I guess maybe it's a good point to start talking about the sequence of the album, because I'm not sure, at least in my mind, like, the. The album kind of moves through these. I don't know. I don't know if they're framed as acts, but there's groupings of songs that happen to be mostly four. Four songs each that all kind of bundle. I mean, the whole album is. Obviously there's through lines, but, you know, when we get to no More Old Men, Negro Problem, and then Drapedomania it's like, it's more communal. So I guess maybe talk to me through some of the thoughts when you sequence the album and like the intention behind the progression of it.
- [79:22]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, I think like the most overarching decisions that I made is more so like what I was saying earlier, like, how soon do I want to introduce the thesis? How soon do I want to get really radical or really experimental? How soon do I want to, you know, speak personally versus speaking, you know, about the world around me? And I think my decision for like the first four songs was to like really come out swinging with raps and with themes. And by the time you get to the Negro Problem, I will have addressed the fact that I'm black at least three or four times. But not necessarily given, you know, the ills of the world. Yet even with no More Old Men, as much as it is a melancholy song, it doesn't really place blame at any point and it doesn't really like speak to issues as much as it fondly remembers the things that we would be without. You know what I mean? I feel like Negro Problem is the first time that we really speak from a place of lacking and speak to, you know, a younger generation in a way that, like I was saying earlier, I don't want to be too preachy or teachy on the album, but this is the one where I'm like. The first verse of Negro Problem is basically from the perspective of a 13 year old black kid. Like what it's like growing up in terms of being over policed, what it's like going to school, what it's like having to wake up and cook for yourself. What it's like living in places where there's, you know, water mismanagement or poisoning and. And just kind of like what, what the. What a day in the life looks like and things that you're gonna have to go up against and how, how separate or isolated that experience is from everyone else's.
- [81:17]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
You know, it's dirty when the sink dirty Nowadays you13, you gotta think 30 can't be out here sitting waiting on the next man Waking up burly hit your reps, cook the eggs man keep your head on the swivel. Cause the pistols got switches on them and even little sticks got extensions on them. They sound a long way from some whippings, don't it? It's all the same road with some distance on it.
- [81:40]
Cole Kushna
We should probably talk about the framework of the song because. Well, one of my favorite lines in the whole album actually is where you say, I Sound a long way from some whippings donut. It's all the same road with some distance on it. And then train police, school of police. It's going to be police at the balloon release. But framing the song with the Negro problem with. Maybe you can set that up for the audience. But this historical white supremacist framework.
- [82:05]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [82:07]
Cole Kushna
After slavery, then was kind of repurposed by Frederick Douglass and Booker Washington, all kind of addressed this idea of the Negro problem. And then you have the line, it's all the same road. So you're kind of. Of taking it back to this. The history of this country. Right. So maybe you can unpack that a little bit for the listeners.
- [82:26]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, I love that line. Just the way I said, it's all the same row with some distance on it.
- [82:30]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. It's just explain so much.
- [82:32]
Chance the Rapper
This is a great way to say, like, you know what I'm saying? This is. It's. It's. It's same. Different toilet. You know what I'm saying? But in a cooler way.
- [82:41]
Cole Kushna
Well, also, I love about. It's like the things that you're talking about in the song, in the album. It's like, these aren't. These don't exist in a vacuum.
- [82:49]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [82:49]
Cole Kushna
There's history behind them.
- [82:50]
Chance the Rapper
100.
- [82:51]
Cole Kushna
If you isolate one incident, you can make, you know, have a conversation. You can't, though. You have to. You have to view it historically.
- [82:59]
Chance the Rapper
Facts. Yeah. So like, the Negro problem as like a, like, social term is something that, like you said, goes back to the late 1800s and early 1900s. And it was always framed as, like, this issue that America has because the Negro is lazy and the Negro is uneducated, and the Negro is not like a productive member of society. And it never really addressed some of the issues that caused that. And so Booker T. Washington made a collection of essays with writers like Du Bois on it. And it was. That's where WB does the whole talented tent thing. And like, you know, you see a lot of these writers actually come back years later and be like, you know what? Why would I ever blame it on black people? But that was the framework for that term was like this problem that America has is Negroes, but not necessarily explaining how we got to the conditions that we were in. And it was a. I think it's a James Baldwin interview on, like, Dick Cavett or something, where someone. I think it was James Baldwin famously said, like, America doesn't have a Negro problem. It has a white problem. Has a whiteness problem. As this. There's an identity that you can claim or cling to or assimilate into that grants you privilege that black people have a very hard time working into. Because our problem is our skin color, you know what I'm saying? Like, we can get higher on that spectrum of whiteness by getting a good job or speaking well or joining the military or the police, being married, you know, having celebrity, whatever, but it's. At the end of the day, you're still gonna be black. You know what I'm saying? So I think, like, he expressed the issue with this identity that existed and called out a lot of the conditions that black folks were subjected to in the 60s to express that we're living in two different Americas. And I think that's the ill part of the songs is the verses lay out all of these real issues. The hella people, since I put it out, told me, like, yo, this perfectly describes my son's experience in school or my cousin when he was in the hospital or this whatever. But the ill part is how all the verses end with, you know, the doctor said, nurse, I don't see no problem. The world said, yep, that's a Negro problem.
- [85:44]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
It's a lot of complaints, but we just can't file them. Open case, shut case, still won't solve. The judge said, what? I don't see no problem. The world said, yup, that's the Negro problem.
- [85:56]
Chance the Rapper
Because these problems do get dealt with as like something that's in our imagination or something only affects us. But these are institutions that all of us use. So if there's medical racism, then there's probably also medical classism. There's probably also medical like. There's all. We all have to use the same system. And it's just varying degrees on how we feel, the inequities of the system.
- [86:23]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. And then. So one of the sequences of albums that are really powerful is that. Yeah. In the second verse of Negro Problem, you talk specifically about medical racism in the healthcare industry. And then we go right into Drapetomania, which is another kind of diagno. Actual diagnosis made by this some. I'll put him in. Yeah, It's a quote, unquote, physician Samuel.
- [86:50]
Chance the Rapper
Cartwright, who is that was not no.
- [86:52]
Cole Kushna
Doctor who was the professor of diseases of the Negro at Louisiana University.
- [86:58]
Chance the Rapper
See, I didn't know he was the professor of Negro diseases.
- [87:01]
Cole Kushna
It's wild. Yes. When I read that, I was like. But what I like is that you kind of flip it. So for people that. That don't know Drape Domania was this diagnosis that this guy gave for essentially saying, like, if you wanted to escape captivity, it must be mental illness. Yeah. Referring to the enslaved. And you've kind of flip it into this simple hook that's not so simple. Again, it's like, go crazy. Go crazy. It's like you're kind of playing with that diagnosis. Yeah.
- [87:39]
Chance the Rapper
I want people to go crazy. I think, like, the. There's a. One of the themes or motifs in the album is, like, escapism. And you get it on speed of love. You get it on speed of light. There's different moments where it's like, we gotta. We gotta dip. I sampled the Tootsie Roll. A dip, baby dip. Cause in Chicago, we say, like. Like, I had to dip. I had to dip up. Out of that means, like, get little. Like, move fast. Like, get out of there. And I also wanted to expand it to be, like, fearlessness. Because I don't think that it was only being diagnosed for slaves that ran away. I'm sure it was diagnosed to slaves that had hysteria in their mind to the point that they would kill their captors.
- [88:24]
Cole Kushna
Oh, right.
- [88:25]
Chance the Rapper
You know, because slave rebellion wasn't always just running away. Sometimes it was taking the plantation or killing everybody there. And just as much history as. We don't know about the conditions that enslaved people were subject to, we also don't know a lot of the history, like, going back to when we were talking about this for all my Gullahs, like, the Gullah Geechee wars is never really talked about, but there were years, I think, like, 30 years spent where, you know, there were these black slave rebellions in the Carolinas that were largely successful, like, real battles fought by enslaved peoples with the help of natives and others like, that we don't really talk about. And so I wanted to add power to that and kind of, you know, talk crazy a little bit. The first line is from. Is a. Is a quote from Richard Wright from the book Native Son. There's a. A character named Bigger Thomas who's wildly controversial. I don't identify with the character, but he's the craziest nigga in American literature. And he has a line when he's being forced to make some sort of. What do they call it? Confession? And they say something like, say, a N would kill you or. Or they say. Or. No, they say, you better do this right or we'll make you. And he says, you can't make me do nothing but die. That's just like. That's hard. That's hard. That's hard. To me, back in Big I straight.
- [90:05]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Up told that pig can't make me do number die so much money one pocket it look like a pimp because I limp and I lean on one side.
- [90:10]
Chance the Rapper
And I think, like, the idea that you have to be crazy to seek or to acquire your liberation is like, okay, bet, right? Go crazy, right? And I had a bunch of other iterations of the song that were just, like, a little too angry or a little too scary or a little too preachy. Like, a lot of different versions of this song. And the one that I love the most is the one that came out on the album. Because that whole first verse is just really fun. You know, there's a few little things in there. Like I said, the native son reference and, you know, certain. Like that. But the first verse and. And. And. And Baby Chief's verse are just, like, fun. I mean, even Baby Chief has something a little in there where he says. He says, free all the guys. Free all the ops, all the pigs. Kill all the rats.
- [91:05]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Free all the ops and free all the gases. All the pigs and kill all the rats.
- [91:08]
Chance the Rapper
My g. He's saying, free the guys, which is understandable. Like, free my homies. Free the ops. Which is crazy, right? But it's like we would rather deal with them ourselves than have this system deal with them. All the pigs and kill all the rats. The. The rats getting it worse than the pigs because they won't even pick a side, you know what I'm saying? And that's radical. Like, that's scary. That's. That's what it is, I guess. You know what I'm saying? But it's also like, it's radical. So I just. I love his verse. And then it's like you have to listen all the way through to get to the me talking about PAC shooting two corrupt police officers, you know, which is probably the most radical thing that's ever happened in hip hop, period, like, ever. You know what I'm saying? Everything else I could think of has been words, but, like, Tupac literally found two crooked cops trying to assault an unarmed black dude, and he popped them, both of them, with a 9 and went to court. And if he didn't fight the case, they would have never found out that these two cops had stolen guns from the evidence lockers at their police stations and were drunk on the job and were, you know, harassing somebody. Like, if he didn't stand up in the way that he stood up. And so, you know what I'm saying, Like, his words are incredible. His history of organizing in, you know, in the in the free world and in prison systems is unmatched. But I can't. I didn't want to hop on the song and say that in the first verse, you know what I'm saying?
- [92:48]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Like 401k in a shoebox. My favorite rapper named Tupac love Tupac. Cause he shot two cops. I got a 9 millimeter cup thug.
- [92:56]
Chance the Rapper
Live, I got a new tan.
- [92:58]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
That say.
- [93:01]
Chance the Rapper
You don't get the fuck Ice in the first verse. You gotta wait a little bit.
- [93:04]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, that seems to be a highlight of the live show too.
- [93:07]
Chance the Rapper
People love. People love it because it's like we're living in the now. And I think music is really a powerful tool to be able to self reflect and to see the world, you know, as it is. And there's not a lot of songs out there that's. That's saying fuck Ice. You know what I'm saying? We might get a tweet or something, but like, music is also a business and a lot of artists, especially ones that are signed, have like hella things that they gotta be looking at at the same time when they're producing. Mass producing art.
- [93:38]
Cole Kushna
Right. Well, talk me through the. If there is a transition between Drape, Domania and then Back to the Go, because this is, to me, in my framing of the album, like this is where that second act kind of starts. Because it's back to the Go. It's High is the low space and time linking me in the future. All very personal songs and more tell your specific story, where you've been telling your specific story, but really focusing outside and externalized. So now we get the internal section of the album and it kind of softens.
- [94:07]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [94:08]
Cole Kushna
Which is something that maybe I should say about the album that I really appreciate is like the. The balance of resistance and rebellion with softness, with vulnerability. And like you kind of. It's. It never stays in one mood for very long. It's like you're kind of giving both sides simultaneously throughout the project. But this is kind of. So, yeah, I guess what was the logic there at this moment in the album?
- [94:32]
Chance the Rapper
That is where it starts to like delve more into the personal. I think back to the Go and highs and the lows, just sonically sample to sample. They always worked well together.
- [94:43]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [94:45]
Chance the Rapper
There's an idea called Radical Rest where it's like sometimes we get so close to our rage and. And expressing our, you know, resistance of the system that we like, we pour everything into that and we spend a lot of time being upset or working, you know, and it's it's also radical to reclaim, like, your. Your ability to feel and be human and not just be, like, a tool. You know what I'm saying?
- [95:19]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [95:20]
Chance the Rapper
And so I definitely always knew I was gonna have to have these moments of vulnerability through the album. Like, there's so many songs I wrote that are vulnerable or speaking about these certain things that I was going through over the years. But I think Back to the Go was, like, a really important song for me to kind of contextualize where I was.
- [95:42]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Like, I made a mistake. I lost a home. Not like a mortgage, but more like a foster home. Supposed to be two parents, but now I'm across the globe and screaming across the phone A dog that just lost his bone.
- [95:54]
Chance the Rapper
I'm back at the. My world was, like, drastically changed by, you know, separating, and I had to really lean into my mom to help me with my kids. I had to really, like, dig deep into myself to, like, regain confidence and regain a certain sense of routine around writing and creating. And the song really just speaks to that. Like, it's probably the most on the nose that I get about my relationship. You know, space and time is probably a little more expansive, but it's still, like, really largely metaphorical. And I think this one is, like. It's still speaking through the lens of, like, how it works with my creativity, you know?
- [96:41]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [96:41]
Chance the Rapper
I turned pain into paint, and I, you know, I do. You know, there's chicken scratch on the pad, but once I unpack, I'm back in my bag. That's really what it's about. It's like, once I allow myself to be vulnerable and speak on the points is another song kind of writing about writing, where I'm expressing, like, the state that I was in and how it's making me think about what I should be creating and what I should be doing and my purpose that, you know, I say, like, literally on the track, like, once I start to talk about what I'm going through, I'm staying with my mom. You know what I'm saying? You know, I'm an absentee father in the case of, like, when it comes to traveling, like, I'm, you know, moving around so much that, you know, I'm not seeing my kids as much. And sometimes there's a humbling experience of going back home and just refreshing that is needed in order to regain that confidence. And I think, like, the time that I spent around my mom, like, all that is real. Like, tell my mom back in my room I'll be packing up soon. I just need to lay low Anyone ask if you see me say no. Like, there's a shame associated with it too. But it's like, it's also still a sense of confidence. And like, the lines, like, I'll pick up myself, I'm right sometimes. Because through this, like, there's so much doubt that gets built up from, you know, from just taking other people's words or not even other people sometimes, like, you know, bodied reactions that an artist can completely, like, lose a sense of self or, like, what the realities of their talent is. And so I love that song. Cause it's so vulnerable, but it's also still so strong to me.
- [98:46]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I like the. My real life feel like a still life back on the canvas just to feel like what it feel like. And then the pole counter stiff, right? No time to dodge Took some time pumping iron my mom's garage, like, building up the strength back.
- [98:58]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
And like my real life feel like a still life Back on the canvas just to see what it feel like. Pull counter stiff, right? No time to dodge Took some time pumping iron in my mom's garage.
- [99:10]
Cole Kushna
I like the duality of, like, the art canvas, but the boxing canvas.
- [99:14]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, you know, that's the point, yo, like, these words gotta matter. Like canvas, like the. I told you that there was a point when the album was going to be called gallery and I was spending a lot of time with artists. So, you know, paintings, different mediums are like a motif throughout the album. And so I'm still trying to describe things as if I went to art school and I know all of these terms. I don't really know everything, but it's like boxing has been something that's been in my life my whole life. I've made a million different boxing references. Some that people don't get because they're too niche, but, like, you know, I think saying stuff like canvas baroque, mentioning Lorraine o' Grady and photography, or, you know, the writings on the wall, this a fresco. There's little points throughout the album that I think are trying to lean into the idea that, like, art is a documentation of life, but it's the most beautiful documentation you can make. And so I think back on the canvas just to see what it feels like. Saying that my life is like a still life is like. It's all beautiful and it's all tough. You know what I'm saying? It's all, you know, it. It always feels like I'm going through it, but it's always beautiful.
- [100:40]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I'm gonna get to space and time One of my favorite songs, the album. I don't know why. This song seems kind of polarizing.
- [100:47]
Chance the Rapper
It's weird.
- [100:48]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, it's one of the more polarizing albums or songs on the album, but it's one of my favorites. And the writing on it is absolutely incredible. Maybe not, like, in terms of bars, but in terms of concept and concept development and playing with this idea of space and time. Verse one, starting with, like, your origin story. Verse two, drawing parallels to Emperor Jones and Odysseus. And then verse three, the return home and confronting Penelope and what's going on there. So.
- [101:15]
Chance the Rapper
You're a genius, dude.
- [101:16]
Cole Kushna
No, you are. I just listened. Literally all I do is just listen because it's all right there on the page. Okay, so let's. Can you just. We can maybe, like, keep it brief or just so, like, we don't get stuck on here for, like an hour. But, like. But I got it. We got to go through the story because it's really, really cool, and then talk about my. My chills moments on the album when I. So it wasn't the first time I heard this song, but maybe the second or third time. I was sitting in an in and out parking lot eating a cheeseburger, listening to the album, and this song came on. And then when you get to the third verse. Well, let's save it till we get there. But that third verse, like, hit me like a brick.
- [101:56]
Chance the Rapper
Like, that's the one.
- [101:58]
Cole Kushna
It's fucking.
- [101:59]
Chance the Rapper
Ugh.
- [101:59]
Cole Kushna
Okay, so let's go through. So verse one. What's the framework of verse one?
- [102:04]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
I grew tall overnight I woke up one day A man walked back by the crib where we would one day raise a famous. I've been around the world Done all.
- [102:16]
Chance the Rapper
The things I can I'm a giant.
- [102:19]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Now I can't wait till you see.
- [102:21]
Chance the Rapper
How big I am it starts off with the. I grew tall overnight I woke up one day a man. And so it's kind of speaking to, like, the. How quick I was forced to grow up. Like, I, you know, I started even though I probably got famous to everybody when I was 23, when I went for coloring book. I've been rapping and, like, touring since I was 19. Right. And crazy.
- [102:46]
Cole Kushna
I. Yeah, I never realized that coloring book came out when you're, like, 20.
- [102:50]
Chance the Rapper
I was 20.
- [102:51]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [102:51]
Chance the Rapper
I was a kid.
- [102:52]
Cole Kushna
So crazy. And.
- [102:54]
Chance the Rapper
And I had my first child when I was 21, so I, like, had to grow up fast. And not even just in the family sense, like, in the sense of, like, you know, professionally. Like, I Had to grow up fast. And so it speaks to me, you know, having to experience this adultification at a young age from that. But also I grew into a big star. And I'm speaking about how I think that this might impress my love interest and how I can't wait for her to see how big I've become as a entertainer or in this case, a warrior, soldier, king and conquest. And I really, really love that first verse, just the way that it's put. Because I don't get to speak on it a lot in interviews. I don't think most rappers, like, I've been thinking more and more about it. It's a large part of Speed of Love. The outro is like how people like me, Mac Miller, Vince Staples, like a lot of us, like really young, all doing us together at the same time and like having these crazy experiences and, you know, places in power or places in, you know, uncomfortability where we just had to be, you know, child stars basically. And I feel like that first verse perfectly lays out, you know, in a super like, fairy tale kind of way. You know, not only how quick that transformation happens, but also, you know, our naivete or our, you know, blissful ignorance to how it would affect the, you know, the people around you. You think, oh, you're so proud when you find out that I'm a big star. But it sets up the song perfectly.
- [104:49]
Cole Kushna
Funny how that doesn't matter as much as us creatives think when it comes to like love and relationships, but. So then we get the chorus setting up this motif of space and time. But let's stick to the verses for now because we'll get to the chorus at the end. But then you start to frame your journey. One to Emperor Jones, but then I guess the second half of the verse to Odysseus. So maybe contextualize that for the listeners and how you kind of put that together some.
- [105:27]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Emperor Jones. I took the throne on distant shores I grew up fast I bump my head, I hit the door I jumped the porch I up the score My.
- [105:39]
Chance the Rapper
Sweet Penelope, that's for sure. I'll start with Emperor Jones because a shorter reference. Basically the Emperor Jones is this old book and play about this guy, this black dude that works on a train as like a. Basically like a waiter or whatever. And whatever happens, he ends up getting kicked off the train or jumps off the train while it's going through, I think, the Amazon or something like that. And he comes across a group of indigenous people and tricks them into becoming their leader. And the story's written from his perspective while he's on the run from that same tribe that's trying to kill him because they found out that he's not a deity or not a God. But to me, it was always a great examination of how like, power can. It can. It can corrupt a person. There's a like in history. If you ever look up the story of Liberia, it's like a failed mission with maybe good intentions, where there was this idea that, you know, black Americans post that I think Marcus Garvey was in favor of that after black people's freedom from slavery, that the most viable option for them would be to return to Africa. And so the country of Liberia was given to the United States, given to the United States for black people to populate and colonize. And when they got there, obviously there were people already living there. And so there's remained conflicts in Liberia between indigenous people from there and post slavery black folks that came and colonized the space. And that to me is largely a metaphor for just like, you know, even people that have lived in oppression can become oppressive forces if they're not educated on the humanity of others.
- [107:36]
Cole Kushna
Theme and sinners. Yeah.
- [107:38]
Chance the Rapper
So I had a whole song that was based off the Emperor Jones in Liberia. And I. But I felt it connecting in this. In that, you know, I say some Emperor Jones, I took the throne on distant shores. And it's kind of a metaphor to me, you know, moving to LA or moving around the country and, you know, becoming bigger and more powerful or a king in some people's eyes in these foreign spaces and becoming comfortable in that and misusing my power and. And so it's a. It's a quick reference and it. And it speaks to a bunch of other things, but it's basically saying that I became a false king. Right. The larger reference for this verse and somewhat the whole song is the story of Odysseus. Odysseus is a seafarer and king that goes on this great journey. He becomes seduced by sirens and this goddess, I can't remember her name, but he spends all these years away and then returns home with none of his crew left to his wife Penelope and proves his space as the rightful king. That doesn't happen in my story, but it's a great way to describe how I felt as a captain of a ship, you know, taking all of these, these folks, my crew, the people that I work with on tours and into other spaces and largely forgetting, like, you know, what my purpose was when I set out and the fact that I need to return home.
- [109:24]
Cole Kushna
Okay, so then the return comes in verse three. The opening line, on my face are battle scars that surely scare a child is like beautiful and heartbreaking and like just such a great description of that return. And then I'll just read it because this is the part that just like crushes me. I've been gone a while and I'm not so proud if there's still some space for me. I was hoping I can fit. You said it's too late for that, but you should see how big she is. I have daughters. So like, you know, these kind of lines hit me really hard. But. But man, I mean that talk about vulnerability, leaving it all on the page like. And then the storytelling is just brilliant in terms of like how you tied all that together. But yeah, I don't know even if I have a question, but that's just like one of the most moving passages on the whole album for me.
- [110:16]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
On my face I battle scars that surely scare a child. I've been gone a while and I'm not so proud if there's still some space for me. I was hoping I could fit. You said it's too late for that, but you should see how big she is, cuz space and time go whether or not you call.
- [110:40]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, it still makes me cry sometimes. It still makes my kid's mother cry sometimes. We talk about it all the time, like, you know, we're still close friends and. And I think like everybody who goes into a marriage, I think it's not even about believing that it'll last. It's like it's not, it's the last thing in your mind that it wouldn't be a forever thing. And when you have kids, it just complicates things, you know what I'm saying? And keeps you forever connected, even beyond a divorce or anything else that could happen. I think there's this hopeful optimism sometimes where when you see yourself as a main character, you believe that the timeline is based on your comfortability. And when you get there and during those first two verses, there's all this life that's happening that I'm not there for or not able to comment on because I'm on my own star faring journey myself. And so what I like about it is, you know, I love that it's honest, I love that it's very descriptive. But I love the lines after where, where we get to like her, you know, and this is also like these, all of these, they, they're based on my life, but the words are the star in that these are meant to convey a lot of different people's stories and add depth to the character. So it's not just always the warrior story.
- [112:15]
Cole Kushna
Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful how you flip the chorus into her words where before they weren't her words, and she says to you, or I'm assuming space and time go. Whether or not you call home don't waste your sorrows we'll be in Chicago. Like, all that whole lot. I'm gonna cry if I read it, so I won't. But that whole thing, I mean, it's just a beautiful, beautiful song. I feel like if people understood what you're doing, that wouldn't be as polarizing. Let's keep. Let's move on to. Okay, well, tell me where you want to go. I don't think we're gonna have time to do, like, every single song. So, like, act three, in my mind gets back to the rebellion resistance. Kind of like more militant. Gun in your purse tree Burn your block letters all taking aim at institutions, maybe. Let's talk about. Let's talk about letters. I guess maybe. I think that's maybe really resonating with people. So I'm curious. Like, obviously another really clever framework in each. Like, each verse is a letter to a specific church. So I guess, where did that concept start? What was, like, the genesis of the concept? And how did you, like, develop it there?
- [113:23]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Dear Emerald Avenue Church of God, I hope this message reached you. Well, I wrote this with a broken heart. See, recently my Auntie Carolyn passed away, and half the way to the funeral, I realized that there's some shit that niggas just gonna have to say. You think you outlasted that wasn't just my auntie in that casket. You just buried K O K. In Sunday schooling classes.
- [113:42]
Chance the Rapper
I was reading a book called God of the Oppressed by James cone, who's, like, a really, I think, important part of the whole Starline story. So James cone was a theologian in the 60s. So, like, basically, there's this revolution that's happening in the 60s where black people are finding a new identity, right? We had already been, you know, niggas and color folks and Negroes. And now this is the first time that we start to associate with the. With the title of being black, which prior to that was like an epithet. You didn't want to call nobody black. It's like, I ain't black. Like, you know, dirt is black. Like, I'm Negro. Around the time that the Panthers are forming that Malcolm X is gaining I'm sorry. Prior to the Panthers formation, this is Malcolm X is becoming widely popular. Black art is starting to get spread. James Brown puts out say Aloud, I'm black and I'm proud. And so there's a revolution in all these different spaces. And one of the key spaces that there was a revolution in is the black church, which is becoming increasingly involved in the liberation struggle. And this guy, James cone, starts writing these books and coins this term black liberation theology, which is the idea, not to simplify it, but the idea that our liberation isn't. Is directly tied to our faith and that basically to serve Christ is to work towards liberation. And he goes through it in a lot of different books and essays. But I was reading God of the Oppressed. I was also reading the Cross and the Lynching Tree, both James cone books. That kind of made me want to write to white evangelicals because it's such a huge voting block and such a powerful, organized effort for the United States. This is prior to all the shit that's happening now with the turning point shit, but, like, you know, this is probably a year or two ago now. But watching the direction that the country was headed in and understanding faith as such a powerful weapon in anyone's hands, it made me want to write to the evangelical church. And just like that second act that you were talking about in terms of looking inwards and speaking on my personal life and not just trying to speak on everybody else in the world around me, I started with the verse about my church and my family before I got to the mega church. And I think, like, it's crazy, like, I didn't expect it to have the reaction that it did, and it wasn't negative, but, like, everybody somehow from my church heard this song. It had something to say, you know what I'm saying? But, like, you know, I think one of the things that James cone talked about a lot in the Crossing the Lynching Tree was the relationship between organized faith and mob violence. And mob violence is what killed Jesus, you know what I'm saying? But mob violence is also what lynched thousands of black folks in the early 1900s. And my violence is typically what leads to rebellion and revolution. And all of these are tied to faith. That is the galvanizing factor in any. Any. Any of those movements is that people had to believe that their faith was tied to that there was a deeper, more divine call to action that was leading their cause and leading their cause to success. And I think as we go further and further down this road, we get closer and closer or see more and more examples of mob violence and more justification through faith. And I wanted to give a perspective on what is wrong with the church as a body, as a space, as an organization to basically rile up the troops. Like, to get people angry and reflective and actionable.
- [118:32]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I think for me, like, the genius stroke of this song is the fourth verse and the bridge and the fourth verse. Because obviously there's a lot of, like, aggression and frustration in the first three verses, but I think you coming back with a softer bridge, a softer fourth verse really helps, like, articulate this. You know, I'm speaking harshly and I'm being very direct, but this is coming from a place of love and purpose and a reminder of what this used thing used to be. It's not just a rope. It's a rope with a purpose. Right.
- [119:14]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Set fire to the tree when the empire falls and the kingdom stands tall.
- [119:22]
Cole Kushna
So to me, like, the song is even more impactful when you say, you know, let these words be said in love, you say it directly and then hearkening on some tropes of Jesus, that the truth will set you free Take the log from out my eyes Set fire to the tree Also, I just point out to the listeners where this is coming off the heels of tree.
- [119:42]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah.
- [119:42]
Cole Kushna
And burn your block so this motif of fire and wood. And so I gotta just acknowledge that I thought that was a really. Just like, really brilliant artistic move to make the impact of the song even, because you could have just left it with the first three verses.
- [120:00]
Chance the Rapper
Pastor Charlie. My. My pastor, his name's Charlie Daisy. He's a very popular pastor. He was the one that was like, you need a fourth verse. He's like, you can't just keep talking about all the shit that the church does wrong. And I. Low key didn't really do what he was saying, but I did agree that it needed a, like you said, a softer fourth verse. And there's a song called All My People that will eventually come out, but I don't think the world was ready for it when I dropped the album. That continues this Moses motif of. That's like, throughout the album. So, like, you know, talk about going to the mountaintop and talk about my face being shown and we talk about the four Commandments. There's this, like, this Moses motif because they used to call Marcus Garvey, the great Negro Moses. And so there's like, several points where. Where I'm coming from that perspective and trying to lead people. And that fourth letter addressing the body is meant to call the least of us and express what makes us last or chosen, which is empathy for others. When I talk about the ones that went back in search of more bodies, like, I want people to think about Palestine. When I say the ones that watch the little bodies lose all heat. I want people to think about Palestine. I want people to think about where the least of us are now. Life.
- [121:42]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
The covenant stands, the body, the nobodies, the ones that went back in search of mo bodies. The ones ones that placed coins and mourned and washed feet. Ones that washed the little bodies that lost all heat. The body, his child, his pride, his joy. If I have no words, my sword, my voice, I write to you with tattoo tears and heavy shoulders. An angel with a hand on his hip, the gun holster. What is violence if not silence? So sling that rock and slay that.
- [122:11]
Chance the Rapper
Giant slow and reminder that the body is all of us coagulated. And so I feel like it's a great book into the verse. It doesn't go back and say like, PC wanted me to. Pastor Charlie wanted me to be like, but there's churches that got basketball courts. Just like, I don't want to undercut my message. I want to still do what I'm doing. But the direct call to action is it's not about separation of people. It is a separation of the church and the state. It is a separation from the foul moves or the cowardice or the, you know, the materialism. But it's a. It's asking for all of us to come together as the body of Christ to accomplish the goals of Christ.
- [122:57]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, the fourth verse kind of gets us bridges into what I'm calling the fourth act, which is the. For the last four songs, which gets softer and hearkening on these motifs of light, of love, self, love on pretty, and then the speed of love. As much as I hate to skip over some of these songs, I think the Speed of Love is maybe the song I want to talk to you about the most in this batch. Although I'll say verse two of Pretty is phenomenal.
- [123:28]
Chance the Rapper
It's pretty phenomenal. Vanilla brown eyes like, have you ever heard somebody. You describe something. Something that wasn't white?
- [123:35]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. Fruit lost flavor My star crossed love yeah.
- [123:39]
Chance the Rapper
Shout out to Shakespeare.
- [123:43]
Cole Kushna
Just as the intro was intentional, I feel like specifically the last verse of the album was really intentional. And also this idea of returning to love at the. At the end and kind of asking almost like philosophically or even existentially, like, like, what is love to me now? Like, maybe a young. It's my Interpretation, but maybe a younger version of you thought love was this one thing. And then now I realize, realizing what. What real love is and where does that come from? And. And obviously a big part of the album is that it comes from within, comes from above, and it comes from, you know, people around you. Like the true. The true people around you. But in my. In my mind, like, this last verse is really. It's really good because you start it with Badu quote, which to me, I'm Lauryn Hill. Quote starts the album, and the Badu quote closes the album again. Another elder you're bringing in, Badu said.
- [124:40]
Chance the Rapper
Friends, fans and artists must meet.
- [124:42]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
Which one are you?
- [124:43]
Chance the Rapper
Which one are me? Not a star yet, just a son. At the time, me and my dad burnt them CDs one at a time.
- [124:51]
Cole Kushna
So let's unpack that. The quote from Body, which is from a deaf poetry jam, I forgot what year. Early 2000s, I think. But she says, friends, fans and artists must meet. Which one are you? Which one are me? So I guess I'm curious. What does that mean to you?
- [125:05]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah, that's one of the. One of my favorite poems of all time. Some of my fans maybe don't know this, but I started in poetry and open mics and doing spoken word and stuff, and deaf poetry jam just was my jam when I was a kid, as most kids around my age felt it was just cool to see artists do spoken word. She has this poem, friends, fans and artists. And it's a. It's about these. It's the different perspectives on herself. First verse being from a fan's perspective who, you know, wants more from her, but also still loves and adores her. Then her friends, which, you know, might have, like, secret jealousy or like, you know, feel separated from her. And then finally her perspective for the reasons why some of the things look the way they do and feel the same way.
- [125:56]
Sponsor/Advertisement Voice
Friends, fans and artists must beat which one are you? Which one of me say that God, please, oh please let her breathe my way if she sing my song today I can be okay.
- [126:09]
Chance the Rapper
I've always loved that piece and. And I made a reference to it in the first verse. That song was two verses long forever until like maybe a week before the album came out and I added that third verse, that question of which one are you? Which one are me? Is like, what I thought was just so dope about the whole piece. It's like, are you a fan? Are you a friend?
- [126:33]
Cole Kushna
Right?
- [126:34]
Chance the Rapper
Are you me? And I think, like, I did chase this adulation and this love since an early age. I've been doing talent shows since I was like, in third grade. But, like, what's funny is to think that all this time that, you know, going back to 10 day, that my dad was spending, you know, writing my name on CDs and burning CDs one at a time with me in the middle of the night and sending me to schools and to the front of stores to go pass out my cd. Cd. In the pursuit of fans, in the pursuit of a love. The biggest fan the whole time was my dad. The person that loved me the most that I'll probably ever experience was my father. And speaking on these lessons and the ways that me and our lives ran parallel was like a really important revelation at the end. Like, you know, God or Jesus called Peter to be a fisher of men, to be, like, a person to go out and galvanize in, you know, restore confidence in men, to go follow Christ and to be kingdom builders and warriors. And my dad taught me how to fish. You know the saying about, like, teach a man, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish. You know what I'm saying? Like, he. All of these lessons were so important to me. And my dad, like myself, was in BDN and ld. He was in classes where they were saying he wasn't smart. But, like, if you met my dad, you wouldn't ever guess that about him. But this confidence that he made sure I kept in the wake of, like, being academically disposed. Like, he was always like, no, you are a genius. No, you can do this. No, you better do this. As a matter of fact, the Love Baked and Barbecue Grill, he taught me how to fish, how to start a new skill, he says, scale from the tip tail grab the shark by the gills if God need a boat do your part and you build the art of the deal Put your art in your will so your kids never spend time starving and ill. I think about his bars too long, I start to get chills. That verse offers so much humanity to myself and to my dad. To be like, you know, what is the irony of, like, you know, us both not being artistically gifted, but our handwriting being the first covers of my albums? And what does it mean to, like, be a kid that's, you know, counted out academically, but then also having an undying confidence in self to, like, to become the person that we believe that we would be as a child? And it's just like, I don't know, it's just very, very humble. Like, I love the verse because it's so fire. Like, the rhyming on it is ridiculous. Back to back to back to back. But, like, it's the descriptions of it. It's these little pieces of our lives, of the love being baked in barbecue, grilled like these are. That's like no more old men. That's like baking in this positive black male patriarchy that, like, we don't always get to see or celebrate.
- [129:48]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, the writing is the whole sequence where you quote him. Scale the tail, scale from the tail, grab the shark by the gills if God need a boat do you part in your build. And the way that you say it is fucking really, really powerful. And then so just to tell you that the third part that gives me chills is when you say you get chills thinking about his bars. Like, that part really hits. And then I'll call back for the listeners. You are maintaining a four syllable rhyme scheme throughout the entire sequence. But then the end of the album, which I think is. Is just a perfect way to end the album because you kind of give us the high and the low. And like this latter part of the. Of the verse or the album where you say my heart beats fast when the love comes slow at the end of the day, man, it's the day gonna end But I always end up where the love don't go so kind of somber note, but then your voice gets higher and then the message gets higher and more positive. But if you look up literally look up that star going to shine I'm always in my glow Run the light no telling what life will be but start and life will go the end.
- [130:50]
Chance the Rapper
Of the day, man the day going in But I always end up where.
- [130:54]
Chance the Rapper (rap verses)
The love don't go but if you look up that star going to shine I'm always in my glow Run a light no telling where life will be but start and life will go Tying.
- [131:07]
Cole Kushna
So many of the motifs of the album, bringing it full circle with the Lauren and the Badu and bringing your father back and the elders, the stars like it. It just feels like such, like that last stroke of the painting. It feels very intentional.
- [131:23]
Chance the Rapper
Yeah. I think I grew up listening to CDs on CD players that had the button where it said repeat. They got it on phones now too. But, like, when an album would end, it would go back to the first track. So a lot of my projects end in a way that's supposed to send you back to the first song. And this one was no different. But I really, really. I think when you're first creating. I said it at the beginning of this video. Like, when you're first creating, you're thinking, like, I'm pour all the love into it and hopefully get a portion back. When you get to the end of the project, you start hoping to God that you get a lot of the love back that you put into it because you're exhausted and, you know, you've put a lot of work into it. And so I think I started to realize that there was a possibility that this project, as good as it is, it might not get nominated for a Grammy. It might not, you know, do 100,000 units in the first week. It might not be the topic of conversation for the rest of the year. Like, some of the, you know, bigger artists are more consistent. Artist that released this year would be. And I think that doubt was something that I started to feel more and more. And I think the way that I characterize myself as a star, that's like floating up in darkness. But if you ever look up, I'm gonna still be here and I'll lead the way. And this project exists now. I've put it out, I've published it. So you can get whatever you need from it whenever you need to tap into it. And so even if I'm in the place where the love don't go, even if I feel isolated, I'm gonna shine. Like, if you come to the show, when I say I'm coming to your city, you're gonna get a show. If you turn on my album, when you get an opportunity to, you're gonna get an album. But nothing is guaranteed, so just start and life will go.
- [133:18]
Cole Kushna
I was gonna ask you what the biggest takeaway from the album you want listeners to. To take with them, but that sounds like maybe it's it.
- [133:25]
Chance the Rapper
I think that's a great way to look at it.
- [133:26]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. All right. Well, I appreciate your time today. This I. I feel like we could have talked for 10 more hours. Beautiful project, man. Congratulations. And like, I'll just say it again. Great art gives you what you give it, and this album will give back tenfold what you put in. So I feel like it's a. It's a forever album in terms of, like, it's an. It offers an education. Like there portals in this album that you can dive through. And it'll teach you about this country and experiences and like, it's just. For me, it's one of them albums. So appreciate your time, man. Thank you.
- [133:58]
Chance the Rapper
Thank you, man. I appreciate you. Do.