Charles Holmes (2:05)

Your album is by a little known artist that people don't really give a shit about. Who? Who can you reveal?

Cole Kushner (2:11)

I'm doing the cult classic, the indie darling, the modern day of the Wes Anderson of hip hop. I'm doing Tyler the Creator's Igor, could.

Charles Holmes (2:21)

You make my earthquake? I don't want no confrontation. You don't want my conversation seem like a head trip to listen to? Cause I'm only giving you things you jo about with your friends inside your living room. The only difference is I got the balls to say it in front of y'. All. And I don't got to be fals.

Cole Kushner (2:37)

Take one look in the mirror Implication so clear.

Charles Holmes (2:39)

I live life with no fear. Except for the idea that one day you won't be here. I read about your Uncle Ronnie, too. I'm sorry. I had a friend kill himself over some who didn't want him. I know you probably hear the thing.

Cole Kushner (2:51)

About Marshall Mathers LP is that it's had time to, you know.

Charles Holmes (2:54)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (2:55)

You know, it's. It's had. It's at its moment. It's a little bit harder to judge recent albums, but. Igor, maybe you're just not in the demo or the age group, but this album is, like, revered. It is a gem for a certain. I know you do. You're playing the part a little bit.

Charles Holmes (3:12)

I will just say the Wes Anderson of hip hop kind of seems like a diss if we're being real.

Cole Kushner (3:18)

Wait, really?

Charles Holmes (3:19)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (3:19)

You don't like Wes Anderson? Okay, let's move on.

Charles Holmes (3:25)

You like Wes Anderson. I like Wes Anderson. It's just. It's a little too much. It's a little like. I'm like, all right, man, we get it. We get it. You know?

Cole Kushner (3:33)

All right, should we go into. Into the rules structures? Because I am just. I'm very excited to get into Marshall Mathers. But before we do that, let's recap the rules and the premise of the show. Remember, every episode, Charles and I are each nominating one album that we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode where we'll make a case for why it's one of the best albums of the past 25 years. Then, at the end of the episod, the two albums will go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winner.

Charles Holmes (4:05)

The winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album standing. Cole, we've already revealed which albums we're doing doing today. But let's talk very, very briefly of about why we picked Eminem and Tyler for this episode. Because we made a late stage change. Originally, this episode was supposed to be Igor versus Doom and Mad Lib's Mad Villainy. And then we kind of had a change of heart a little bit.

Cole Kushner (4:43)

Yeah, it's the more. I think at face value, the pairing doesn't make as much sense as a doom and mad villain. Cause you can kind of draw a direct line between those two artists. But once you understand Tyler a little bit more and you start looking a little bit closer at the trajectory of his career, like, it's very much influenced by Eminem. He has been on record saying Eminem taught him how to rap. And I think the interesting thing about the two artists together and grouping them together in this way is that the evolution of Tyler versus the evolution of Eminem, I feel like, presents an interesting dichotomy in terms of these two artists and their career trajectories, where I think Eminem was never able to evolve past a certain point where Tyler kind of was able to transcend some of his earlier work and continues to grow as an artist in a way that I don't think Eminem ever quite did. Am I wrong to say that?

Charles Holmes (5:42)

No, I. I agree so much. I think what I believe I said to you and Justin yesterday is, to me, in the beginning of Tyler's career, I feel like he leaned more into the hardcore sh. Shock tactics of an Eminem. You could tell he was of a piece of that. Of that lineage. But undergirding all of that was his love of Pharrell, the Neptune's clips. And I think in the later stages of Tyler's career, he more so went off in the Pharrell. He leaned more into the Pharrell trajectory. And I think the reason that I wanted to pair Igor with Marshall Mathers is both of these, to me, are the pinnacle of these artists as pop stars. Where Igor, to me, is when Tyler the creator finally married it all together, when he's finally taking on so much of the singing, so much of the melody, letting the music breathe. And I think Marshall Mathers is. It's weird to say this because it's still so early in Eminem's career, but it's kind of like the beginning of the end in terms of what I liked about him as an artist. I think each project is diminishing returns where Eminem shows still pretty, like, really good. It has great standout moments. Encore has less moments. And the more and more you go down the line, I'm like, to your point, Eminem never really almost. Eminem crystallizes in time in amber, almost chasing the highs of Slim Shady and Marshall Mathers. Where to me, Tyler the creator, with each record is creating its own era. He almost. Tyler the creator, to me, almost refuses to be pinned down to one era or one time.

Cole Kushner (7:28)

Yeah. And, yeah, everything. Every. Each project presents a new sound, a new vision, a new world in a way that, you know, to contrast it with Eminem. Eminem's most recent project is essentially a callback to his first project, and he seems to kind of just be recreating the same wheel and. Yeah, so let's. But I want to do my best to honor Eminem. It's really easy to critique, but I'm going to do my best. Like, the same way we presented Drake in episode one. I want to give him his flowers.

Charles Holmes (7:58)

Wait, so am I going first this episode? I went first last episode.

Cole Kushner (8:02)

Yeah, but we got to start with M. We have to start with M. I think so.

Charles Holmes (8:08)

All right. Album facts for The Marshall Mathers LP. It was released on May 23, 2000. It's Eminem's third studio album. It features features appearances from Snoop Dogg, Nate Dogg, D12 exhibit, Dido, among others. Production on the album is mainly handled by Dr. Dre, Eminem, and the Bass Brothers. The Marshall Mathers LP spawn six singles, the real Slim Shady, the Way I Am, Stan, I'm Back, Kill you, and Please Too. The Marshall Mathers LP sold like gangbusters. It sold 1.78 million copies in its first week viewing at number one on the Billboard 200. It is certified D Diamond by the by RIAA. And really quick, I want to pull up something to show you, like, how well this thing sold. So I'm on Wikipedia right now.

Cole Kushner (8:58)

1.7 in first week is 78 million.

Charles Holmes (9:02)

And then the Marshall Mathers LP sold over 800,000 copies in its second week. Third week, 600,000.

Cole Kushner (9:09)

Oh, my shot.

Charles Holmes (9:10)

Fourth week, 520,000. Like, we don't. Sometimes I think we forget. Like, of course Eminem was massive. But when I was going back through how massive this album was, I was just like, oh, I can kind of understand how this kind of curdles his mind a little bit in terms of just like, how can any human handle that level of ubiquity and popularity?

Cole Kushner (9:35)

Yeah, I remember. I mean, you're probably too young to remember this coming out. Or do you remember the release date?

Charles Holmes (9:40)

Oh, no, no, no. Not only do I remember, I remember this. I remember Slim Shady. I remember the Liz Cheney shit.

Cole Kushner (9:48)

Oh, okay.

Charles Holmes (9:49)

Just the destroying the album shit. Like, I. Because here's the thing. I was living with my grandparents at the time, and my grandparents were super fucking newspilled. And it was just like, it felt like whenever the news needed. Like, it was a slow news day and they needed, like a bear to poke, it was always Eminem, Eminem and Columbine, Eminem and Glaad. The Grammy performance, I vividly remember so Much of this album.

Cole Kushner (10:16)

Yeah. I remember staying up the radio. My local radio station premiered the album in full at midnight on the night it dropped. And I remember staying up and I recorded on cassette from the radio the whole. The whole album. And then I just listened to it. Like I was like, in deep. I was. Yeah. But it's interesting returning to the album now because I don't. This is not something I put on regularly at all. And it's like essentially like every song is about, like, his relationship with the public and him, like, getting in trouble for saying certain things. And it feels heavy handed until you remember this was a big deal. Like, in terms of, like the pushback he was getting from. Well, it's essentially like Columbine sparks this kind of natural debate and he becomes a scapegoat for the youth's turmoil and he's getting dumped on by the vice president's wife, by senators, the Walmart refuses to stock his albums. Like there's all this censorship put on his shoulders. I remember Marilyn Manson kind of getting the same thing where it was like the media was looking for scapegoats. And to your point, the mixture of that kind of backlash put on this guy from Detroit that just wants to rap and this cat is, you know, like a pop star, like near like a Britney Spears level fame and popularity put on this guy that is. It's incredible weight. And everything in his career kind of makes sense from this moment on in terms of, like, the difficulties of him trying to navigate those dynamics which feel, to your point, impossible. Like, absolutely impossible.

Charles Holmes (11:53)

But I mean, you know what's funny in this exercise, to your point, when I was listening to how much of this was about fame, I was like, oh, this reminds me of Take Care in a way, not sonically, but in terms of just like an artist becoming so famous so fast. And then their music pivots from being about their personal life before fame to almost everything becoming about. It's not just him being famous in terms of like, the government's mad at me or moms are mad at me, my family's mad at me. I fucking hate Kim. Everything about my life has changed. I was just like, oh, this is kind of the. I think artists have always done that. Hey, my second, third album is going to be the Fame album, right? I think this is when it becomes like an industrial complex, when it's like it's all pop music, just about how much fame.

Cole Kushner (12:48)

Right? All right, so you ready for Eminem trivia?

Charles Holmes (12:52)

Oh, of course, trivia.

Cole Kushner (12:55)

You've been very Hard on me. I don't think I even have a single point yet this season, so. And I.

Charles Holmes (13:00)

Now I'm really scared, so I went.

Cole Kushner (13:02)

A little bit harder this time. We'll see. We'll see. How many questions did you get from me?

Charles Holmes (13:07)

I gave you two.

Cole Kushner (13:07)

Two. Okay, I'll get you two here. All right, first question. Which track on the Marshall Mathers LP had its original third verse accidentally erased by a studio engineer, forcing Eminem to rerecord it?

Charles Holmes (13:21)

Easy, Stan. I thought I was going to give research. I'm in these streets. Oh, I researched.

Cole Kushner (13:30)

How pissed do you think Eminem was?

Charles Holmes (13:32)

Oh, I cannot.

Cole Kushner (13:32)

On that song especially.

Charles Holmes (13:34)

I mean, it's also funny. What did he say that the engineer said? He's just like, oh, my bad.

Cole Kushner (13:39)

Well, like he was supposed to just punch in the last couple lines and then he recorded over the entire thing. And Eminem claims the original performance was better than the one that we heard now.

Charles Holmes (13:48)

Which is crazy, because I think Stan isn't my favorite Eminem song, but I think it's one of his best performs.

Cole Kushner (13:54)

Yeah, for sure. Okay, question number two. On the clean version of the album, the song Kim is removed completely and replaced by another song that is not on the explicit version at all. What is the name of this song? I got you. Oh, I got you.

Charles Holmes (14:10)

You got me.

Cole Kushner (14:11)

I could tell.

Charles Holmes (14:13)

I don't know.

Cole Kushner (14:14)

It's called the Kids. It's a South park theme track. Do you want to hear just, like, a little bit of it?

Charles Holmes (14:20)

I don't think I've ever heard the song.

Cole Kushner (14:22)

If I did, I didn't. I don't remember it at all until this point.

Charles Holmes (14:25)

Justin, you are as our resident white rapper expert, have you ever heard this song? Oh, God, yeah.

C (14:30)

I'm familiar with the song.

Cole Kushner (14:30)

Okay.

C (14:31)

I'm familiar.

Charles Holmes (14:45)

Kim is better.

Cole Kushner (14:46)

It's whatever. It's whatever. It's, you know.

Charles Holmes (14:49)

Wait, what's the third? This? No points for this. What's. What's the third question?

Cole Kushner (14:53)

Okay, no points. No points.

Charles Holmes (14:54)

Okay, Just for the love, which track.

Cole Kushner (14:57)

On the Marshall Mathers LP did Eminem right in one sitting while high on ecstasy? Kim, we must be reading the rest of websites.

Charles Holmes (15:09)

Come on, come on.

Cole Kushner (15:10)

This one. This one's super easy. You're gonna get this one for sure. Which song on the Marshall Mathers LP was a last minute edition recorded just hours before the album's final deadline?

Charles Holmes (15:20)

The real Slim Shady.

Cole Kushner (15:21)

Yeah. Which is crazy. Which. We'll talk about that.

Charles Holmes (15:24)

Insane.

Cole Kushner (15:25)

That song's. That song's good.

Charles Holmes (15:27)

That song's really good. I forgot how good.

Cole Kushner (15:30)

Yeah. All right, so let's get into categories.

Charles Holmes (15:33)

Let's get into the categories.

Cole Kushner (15:34)

So you got one point. One point for the trip.

Charles Holmes (15:37)

All right, so for those who have forgotten, our categories for this. For this season is biggest song, best song, worst song, deep cut, best moment, and best biggest song. Obviously, the real Slim Shady. Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? We're going to have a problem here. Y' all act like you never seen a white person before. Jaws all on the floor like pan like Tommy just bursting the door. Started whooping her ass first than before. Produced by Dr. Dre and Mailman, the song is certified seven times platinum and peaked at number four on the Billboard 100. What's actually interesting to me when I was doing research for this is how many of the songs off this album were super massive but never went number one on Billboard.

Cole Kushner (16:18)

Oh, interesting.

Charles Holmes (16:19)

I don't know if any. I don't know if a single song off this went number one, at least while this. While this album was in the cultural consciousness. And what I think is interesting about this is that a. The real Slim Shady is a perfect hip hop song. But I think the gift in the curse of this record is that Eminem would Essentially his whole career would follow the same blueprint where he would do my name is, then it's the real some shady then we have without me, just lose it. Those, like, goofy introductory records, and I think they progressively get like, if it's my name, and then the peak is probably the real Slim Shady. I think there's diminishing returns of each and every single one. And almost it's not just the goofy records. Like, if you think about the arc of Eminem's career, it's like he'll have his celebrity suck song the way I am cleaning out my closet, Stan. He'll have, like, the schmaltzy, like, pop record, sing for the moment. Love the way you lie mockingbird, right? And it was funny where I'm like, oh, if is the real Slim Shady? Is that the moment where Eminem almost can't escape what makes him. Because when I was doing research for this, Eminem was very, very clear where it was. Like, the label kept kind of being like, all right, what's the. Are you gonna top my name is? How are you gonna top my name is. And part of me was like, why does he need to. Why does he always need to make a corny record? The real Slim Shady is corny. I love this record. It's still good. But there is a Level where I'm like, this not the greatest thing that Em does for me. What, like, what's your opinion?

Cole Kushner (17:59)

Well, that's. I mean, that's kind of one of the confusing things about M's career. I. I don't actually know what he. I know he wants to rap, and I know he wants to be a flawless technician of the craft. That seems to be his biggest passion.

Charles Holmes (18:12)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (18:12)

Yet when you go through the arc of his career, to your point, he does have these formula songs that he keeps returning to. I don't know if it feels like he's obligated to do those types of songs, but, like, we've never gotten, like, the. The Alchemist Eminem mixtape style. Just, like, no hooks, just rap like that. I think that's what every Eminem fan wants at this point is like, don't. Don't try to recreate your first album or your first two albums again 25 years later. Like, we've. We have. We've had, like, 12 albums like, that sound in that same world just a few degrees away from each other. I feel like what. What we've never gotten from him as an artist is a clear progression. It seems just like he's running on the same hamster wheel. And I don't know. It's just. It's a little bit frustrating. But to your point about let's honor Real Slim Shady, though, because this song is great.

Charles Holmes (19:07)

It has one of the greatest opening. Opening lines of a verse. Y' all act like you've never seen a white person before. I laugh every single time. It's so fucking good. Even just like, the. I remember how iconic the music video was. I remember the VMA performance where all the. Like, I do think that that VMA performance, when all the clones of. Of Eminem walkout, is still one of the greatest performances of all time. I think also this song is when Eminem just gets super, super good at creating the character. Like, obviously, some Shady is something that he creates on his previous album. But this is when I was just like, oh, you know exactly what makes this funny. You know exactly what makes this iconic. Later, you're probably gonna talk about how, to me, the real Slim Shady inspires and the performance in the iconic. The icon of all of that inspires Igor's Grammy.

Cole Kushner (20:07)

Yeah, Grammy performance is a nod to this Slim Shady, which is, like, ingrained in my mind. I can see that performance.

Charles Holmes (20:12)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (20:12)

It's just. It's one of those cultural moments that I think, yeah, it will live on. And I forgot how good he's rapping on the third verse.

Charles Holmes (20:20)

That third verse is so good. Is that the rate I'm going? When I'm 30, I'll be the only person in a nursing home Flirty pinching nurses asses When I'm jacking off a jerkins and I'm jerking whole back of isn't working and every single person is a Slim Shady lurking. He could be working in Burger King spitting on your onion rings.

Cole Kushner (20:37)

All the internal stuff like he's doing. And it's. It's. It makes sense that this song was written fast because it doesn't feel like overthought.

Charles Holmes (20:44)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (20:45)

They got a catchy hook and he was able to just. I just. Yeah. I forgot how great the rapping was on this song. And I. I think it's good to. To point out now, like, Justin said something yesterday that really helped me, like, crystallize what is what works with Eminem and what doesn't. So I don't want to take credit for the take because it was actually your partner's take. So do you want to lay that out? Oh.

C (21:11)

Oh, yeah. I can't take credit for this.

Cole Kushner (21:13)

The skeleton key.

C (21:14)

The skeleton key to unlocking Eminem.

Cole Kushner (21:15)

Yeah.

C (21:16)

Is he's at his best when he's just being a silly little guy. And it's the reason why a song like Rap God or on this record, I think the song that kind of shows some of the worst ways in which he progressed, which is the Way I Am, which I think is a good song on a lot of levels, but kind of shows the things that I don't like a lot about Eminem, which is a super serious, like, I'm mad. I hate being famous. And I'm also like, as a rapper, I'm like Dana and a nan, like, just focused on this super precise metronome, like, ability to flip syllables and rhyme schemes. And it is, like, a marvel to behold when he can do that, but it's also so grating and sometimes just so boring. And on a song like the real Slim Shady, he's that silly little guy all over this record. He's a silly little guy. And this is the last time where, like, over in the subsequent records that balance kind of tips a little bit.

Cole Kushner (22:20)

Yeah.

C (22:20)

But this was the last time he was mostly that guy, and he's looser and still rapping, like, incredible. Doing things that other human beings just cannot do.

Cole Kushner (22:29)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think for a lot of it, for me, too, is the production. When it. When the production's a little goofy, it adds this cartoonish element that balances out the violence and the vulgarity, which is fine, but there's, like. There's a playfulness to it. It adds a playfulness to it to where. When he's doing that on songs where the production is also very ser. Serious.

Charles Holmes (22:51)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (22:52)

It's just a little too much. Kim. Kim being the most egregious. Yeah.

Charles Holmes (22:58)

Like, you immediately, it snaps you, like, all right, we don't have to be too serious. We can unclench. I mean, there's also. If we're talking about the goofy moments, like, what other rapper, when he does the feminist women love Eminem. Chicken Chicka Slip Shady. I'm sick of him. It's so. Like, for any other rapper, I'd be like, get the. At it here. But Eminem is so good at putting in almost these, like. I like to call them, like, micro moments or, like, micro hooks.

Cole Kushner (23:24)

Right.

Charles Holmes (23:24)

Where to me, sometimes the verses are just as catchy or have moments that are just as catchy as the hook. And this song is also showing, like, Eminem was so good at writing hooks in a way where most rappers like, he's coming. He's coming up at a time. Obviously, You've all watched 8 Mile, but he is in cyphers, freestyles. And the knock against a lot of those rappers a lot of times is they're so bad at song structure. They're so bad of choruses and bridges and all these things. Eminem was never. That was never a problem with him, actually. I think that's one of his biggest assets. He can make a song like Stan, or you can make a song like the real Slim Shady, where you're like, oh, this functions as a very, very, very good song. And he's the rare rapper where I think a lot of times rappers get lazy and they're like, all right, put two verses. We're done.

Cole Kushner (24:17)

Right?

Charles Holmes (24:18)

Eminem is like, nah, I'm giving you three.

Cole Kushner (24:20)

Every. Every song on his record. Yeah.

Charles Holmes (24:22)

And they're all of the verses. I'm like, damn, all of these verses are good.

Cole Kushner (24:26)

Yeah. It's crazy, too, actually, listening to the blueprint and this back to back, how popular, like, the hook with your name in it was at this time. All the, like, catchy songs on. On this record all have his name in it somehow.

Charles Holmes (24:41)

Yep.

Cole Kushner (24:41)

Like, some introd, whether it's Marshall Mathers or Slim Shady or whatever. But then Jay Z has, like, five songs on the blueprint that are some kind of name flip. And then you had, like, Snoop Dogg doing the same thing at this Time, you know, all his hooks were something with his name spelled out or whatever.

Charles Holmes (24:58)

Well, that, to me, is also just like a carryover from classic hip hop, right? When everybody. When it's like you had five rappers in the group and, like, rappers had to be like, I gotta put my name because y' all are not gonna. Else I am, you know, but if we to Best song. This was an easy pick to me.

Cole Kushner (25:17)

Oh, really?

Charles Holmes (25:18)

This was an easy pick? It was always gonna be my pick.

Cole Kushner (25:20)

Okay.

Charles Holmes (25:21)

Kill youl produced by Dr. Dre and Melman and Melman, originally released as a promotional single. I think that this song is what the real Slim Shady should have been. I think that he made it thinking like, this is the best song. Let's roll this out. Takes his chainsaw, left his brains off tangle it from his neck while his head barely hangs on blood gut guns, cuts, knives, lies, wives none imma kill you you don't want to with me girls need you ain't nothing but a to me I'm gonna kill you you ain't got the balls to be. This song never veers kind of into, like, the corniness that real slange Slim Shady does.

Cole Kushner (26:02)

Or it has a touch of it because the production's a little bit quirky. Just a little bit.

Charles Holmes (26:07)

But not over exactly. And I love the real Slim Shady. I can tell, like, if you put but both songs next to each other, I can tell why the real Slim Shady was the hit and kill you wasn't. But this is in my heart. I think it's the best rapping he's doing on the entire album. What he said about it in the book, Angry Blonde quote, I wanted to start the album with that song because everybody in the press was like, what's he gonna rap about? He's not miserable anymore. He can't rap about being broke no more. He can't rhyme about his pain and his misery because he got money. The whole idea of this song was to say some of the most fucked up shit just to let people know that I'm back, that I didn't lose it, that I wasn't comprom nothing and I didn't change. If anything, I got worse. Which, yes, when you listen to Kim, which we will get to, he got a lot worse. I just. I love kill you before I continue. I feel like you're surprised that I went with this. It's just not.

Cole Kushner (27:00)

I guess it's not the obvious pick, but it's kind of my pick too. If I were forced, but it's like I forgot how good Criminal was. Yeah, Criminal is so good. It's almost like in a similar vein where it is. It has the quirky element, but it's not over the top. It has the great skit in the middle where he goes to rob the girl. And a lot of the skits on this are pretty funny.

Charles Holmes (27:24)

Hot take. I like. I hate skits. I hate skits. Most albums I knock off a half point just for you putting skits and wasting my time. I will say, going back to this, the skits on this are actually funny.

Cole Kushner (27:38)

They're pretty funny.

Charles Holmes (27:39)

Like the Steve Berman skit is funny.

Cole Kushner (27:40)

Eminem's legitimately funny.

Charles Holmes (27:42)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (27:42)

Except for the Ken Caniff one.

Charles Holmes (27:45)

Oh that. That one was tough. But back To Kill youl love this hook. When I was just a little baby boy my mama used to tell me.

Cole Kushner (27:54)

Things it's so good.

Charles Holmes (27:55)

It's so fucking dope. The closing moments of verse one I love I invented violence, you viol venom is violent vicious name by getting rid.

Cole Kushner (28:08)

Such a good again a moment only.

Charles Holmes (28:10)

Eminem can and then he does the Texas chainsaw left his brains all dangling from his neck While his head barely hangs on blood. Guts, guts, guts, knives, live nuns, sluts.

Cole Kushner (28:20)

The whole. Yeah, the whole first verse. Here's my favorite part. When he says he does a three syllable scheme throughout this whole thing. He says, you know why I say these things? Because ladies scream keep. Keep creeping in Shady's dreams and the way things seem. I shouldn't have to pay these shrinks, these 80 GS a week to say the same things. Tweece twice. Whatever. I hate these things. The tweez is so funny.

Charles Holmes (28:47)

He like.

Cole Kushner (28:47)

He was so stuck on. He's like so stuck on the syllable rhyming perfectly.

Charles Holmes (28:52)

Know why I say these things? Cause lady screams keep creeping in Shady's dreams and the way things seem I shouldn't have to pay these strings cause 80 GS a week to say the same things. Tweets twice, whatever. I hate these. Here's the thing. I love when rappers do that. I love when rappers mispronounce the word on purpose and then pronounce it correctly. Lil Wayne has so many lines that are just that. It is my favorite when rappers do it because it's so fucking dumb. Bitch, I'mma kill you. You don't want to fuck with me. You ain't nothing but his luck to me. It's so good.

Cole Kushner (29:25)

I've never heard your voice like that, Charles. Jesus Christ.

Charles Holmes (29:28)

I love kill you. It was the only choice for me on this Record as Justin. Is this a crazy take?

C (29:37)

So, okay, you meant so I'm trying. I'm just trying to think of what else could be in the running. So Cole mentioned Criminal. I'm going through the track list right now.

Charles Holmes (29:47)

I think a lot of people were like, why wouldn't you pick Stan?

C (29:50)

Stan. Stan is the. Is one that I was going to say, and then I have another one after that.

Cole Kushner (29:55)

I mean, fan choice would be the Way I Am too.

Charles Holmes (29:59)

Would be. Which one? The Way I Am Once again, I think kind of if the Way I Am was the only song in Eminem's career who was like that going off what Justin just said, I'd be fine with it. The fact that we've gotten five of those songs makes me like. I kept skipping the Way I Am. Like, the entire time I was like, ah, fuck it.

Cole Kushner (30:22)

I remember liking it a lot when I was a kid.

C (30:23)

It's a bad hang. It's a bad Way I Am is a bad hang of a song.

Charles Holmes (30:27)

It is. It is. All right, so worst song. My honorable mention is Kim.

Cole Kushner (30:35)

Honorable mention.

Charles Holmes (30:36)

My honorable mention Is that's not the.

Cole Kushner (30:38)

Worst song, or is it so clearly the worst song?

Charles Holmes (30:41)

It's so clearly the worst song. Don't make me wake this baby. You don't need to see what I'm about to do. Quit crying, bitch. Why you always make me sound at you. How could you just. I don't want to do the thing where it's like, we've grown as a culture, because I do. Kim, to me, was one of those records at the time that I do remember, like, people being like, oh, my gosh, not only. How could he say it? But actually, it's so brave and blah, blah, blah. And it's just. There's been more ink spilled about Kim than. And I do think, if I'm gonna be honest, there is an artistry to it.

Cole Kushner (31:20)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (31:21)

If you're taking It's a piece of theater as like, a horror director almost. Where it's like, I'm not watching the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and being like. Like, clutching my pearls.

Cole Kushner (31:30)

Yeah, exactly.

Charles Holmes (31:31)

Like he's coming from a lineage of horrorcore. I'm just like. So that's why I'm also like, he. What he does on Kim, he does it well. It's just a song I never want to talk about or ever listen to.

Cole Kushner (31:40)

You know what I thought about? What I thought I was listening to? Kim is We Cry Together. Is what We Cry Together. The Kendrick.

Charles Holmes (31:46)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (31:46)

It's like the same theater, the same kind of song concept and a song that you just don't want to listen to.

Charles Holmes (31:53)

Just don't want to listen to. But when you're just like.

Cole Kushner (31:55)

But you can respect it. Like, you can respect it.

Charles Holmes (31:57)

And also, I think sneakily, probably Kendrick is a huge fan of a song like him. Like, he's probably like, yeah, I love. I can imagine, like, a younger Kendrick being like, oh, fuck, yeah. Like, the storytelling, right? Voices, everything. The real worst song to me is Roman Remember Me.

Cole Kushner (32:16)

This is the correct pick.

C (32:20)

Remember Me seven exoc.

Charles Holmes (32:25)

Like, Remember Me. I hate the hook. I hate everything about this.

Cole Kushner (32:30)

The features. No disrespect.

Charles Holmes (32:32)

No disrespect. I just.

Cole Kushner (32:35)

What's interesting about the features is it really shows you how good of a rapper Eminem is in the way that all the features or a lot of the features on this record, they're all trying to do the horrorcore rap, and it's all shock value, and there's very little skill in the rapping. And Eminem is saying similar things, but he's just so great of a rapper that it's easier to stomach where you kind of. The warts are a little bit. Are very present in the horror core approach. If you don't have the skills, if you're just relying on shock value, it's just a song like Remember Me exposes. Just Remember Me.

Charles Holmes (33:16)

All right. Get the fuck out of here. It's just. No. Get this Sunday afternoon fucking neighborhood theater shit out of my face.

C (33:27)

You guys are going to do that to Sticky Fingers? Like, I'm serious. This is not a bit you're going to do. Have you guys.

Charles Holmes (33:33)

I like Sticky Fingers got some shit off on this. I'm not going to lie. It's just not my shit. You like this song, Justin?

Cole Kushner (33:40)

You like this song?

C (33:41)

I don't love this song. I think that a song like Amityville is probably in the running or under the influence. The D12 stuff is probably more in the running for worse song to me than this because those songs are kind of forgettable.

Charles Holmes (33:58)

Remember Me.

C (33:59)

I think that Eminem verse is great. It's a little. Little Columbine heavy, but. But I do think it's a great verse. And I think Sticky Kills. This RBX was just. Has just never been, like, a great traditional rapper.

Charles Holmes (34:14)

I don't know.

C (34:15)

I just. That's fine if you want to go Remember Me.

Charles Holmes (34:19)

Amityville was in the running. Amityville. If it wasn't Remember Me, it was either going to be Amityville. Yeah. Because I actually don't Think under the influence. The. The D12 song is that bad. That actually, I think D12 are the rappers that, like, to me, can hang with M the most. Just because they're all coming from Detroit.

Cole Kushner (34:40)

Right.

Charles Holmes (34:40)

They have similar leanings, similar influences. I. Please two is bad.

Cole Kushner (34:46)

You know what song is, is. It's not a bad song. Please 2. It just felt like the renegade of the album.

Charles Holmes (34:52)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (34:53)

Where I was like, this is a Dr. Dre song that was kind of just put on.

Charles Holmes (34:56)

I just also don't think, like Snoop Dogg, Nate Dog, Xzibit have chemistry with Eminem. And I also think that that's really. To me, the interesting thing about this album is that it's hard for anyone to have chemistry with Eminem because he. He steals the. The spotlight to such a degree that I feel like when another rapper hops on a track with him, it's almost like they're trying to compete with him in a way where I'm just like, you're. Eminem creates such a world around his music. I think also Tyler Creator is very similar that sometimes it's hard for them to step back and not be this bright light casting a shadow over it.

Cole Kushner (35:39)

That's fair. That's fair.

Charles Holmes (35:40)

And also really quick, my other take. Eminem, I think, has one of the best voices in hip hop.

Cole Kushner (35:48)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (35:49)

And what I mean by that is he can do so much with his instrument. Whether he's doing the angry, guttural, oh, my God, my life is so terrible. He has kind of the cartoonish voice where he's rapping like he's a woman. Or even just when he's like, melodically like, this is almost. He's Almost a Proto50 set in a way where obviously he ends up signing 50. But a lot of these hooks have a sing song quality about them. And I. The thing that I think makes Eminem such a star at that time is as much as he's criticizing NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera, I'm like, you kind of are like that. Your ear for melody, your ear for hooks, your ears for making something like that could just punch out of the TRL screen. It's almost impossible.

Cole Kushner (36:46)

Like, you're doing the same thing. You don't get. You don't sell 1.7 million copies without that skill set. There's. There is a certain melodic skill set that you have to have to make songs that are that appealing to that many people. So you're 100% right. Like, technically, he's like yeah, he's a great melodist. He has a great year for all of that. But to your point. Yeah. Kendrick is. Is very transparent about Eminem being a heavy influence on him. And I think a lot of it is the voice work is manipulating your voice at, like, an instrument playing different characters. I think you can draw a direct through line from Eminem's. That kind of same voice work to what Kendrick is now doing. Curious to know, though, your deep cut.

Charles Holmes (37:30)

You guys are gonna. You guys are gonna kill me for this. Can you guess what my deep cut is gonna be? It's a very Charles pick.

Cole Kushner (37:40)

Is it? It's not. I'm back. No, it should be criminal. Is criminal a deep cut?

Charles Holmes (37:48)

It's not criminal.

Cole Kushner (37:51)

What is it?

C (37:52)

Marshall Mathers.

Charles Holmes (37:53)

I never knew I knew why I never knew why I never knew. I.

Cole Kushner (38:01)

Like this song.

Charles Holmes (38:05)

I don't do black music. I don't do white music. I make fight music for high school kids, Put lives at risk. When I drive this, I put wives at risk with a knife like this. You probably think I'm in your take deck there. And also my pro. One of my many gripes is that I think Marshall Mathers, who knew real Slim Shady all have a little shades of, like, my name is where they're very, very catchy. They're almost to your point. It's either he's reintroducing himself with his name or. The thing that I like about this song is the thing that grinds Eminem's gears at this point. And what I think makes this. This album so good is that Eminem is so mad at the hypocrisy that's happening. He's so mad at. And I remember this moment in American history where he's like, all right, Bill Clinton's getting his dick sucked in the White House. Y' all mad at fucking me. You know what I mean? It's just. And it's. He's right or it's this.

Cole Kushner (39:12)

That's. That was my note on this song, was like, this is the best argument. Like this. Like, with that line, you want me to fix up lyrics? When our. While president gets his dick sucked. And then the next verse, he says, so who's bringing the guns in this country? I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over in London. And last week I saw this Schwarzenegger movie where he's shooting all sorts of these motherfuckers with an uzi. Like, that's interesting to me. That is like, this is. I think, in terms of his Pushback against, you know, the public and the media and politicians. Like, this is the best argument for himself pointing out the hypocrisy, as you're saying.

Charles Holmes (39:46)

And I. When I. When I go back to Eminem and I think about the arc of his career, I like songs like who knew? But when he still had a sense of humor about this stuff. In the Hypocrisy, where I feel like in subsequent records, that hatred almost curdles. Where I'm like, all right, you're bitching about everything. Where the people that. It always felt like Eminem was punching up at people. Where it's like, no, NSYNC is corny and all this music is corny, and where it's just like, nothing Eminem said about NSYNC was going to stop their dominance. Where it's like, I. If I'm remembering correctly, on one of his new albums, he had kind of like this weird line about Megan Thee Stallion, and I'm like, why?

Cole Kushner (40:37)

Yeah, why?

Charles Holmes (40:38)

Like, here's the thing. Was he an asshole for making fun of Christopher Reeves? Yes. At the end of the day, is it just a joke also? Yes.

Cole Kushner (40:45)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (40:46)

Versus, like, Megan Thee Stallion, I'm just like, if I'm gonna be real, I'm like, eminem, you're still a visitor in hip hop. You're still like a white man and a black in a black art form, motherfucker. You can't say that shit. I mean, you can, but I'm gonna call you out, be like, hey, yo, that's. Yeah, fuck off. Vers. So who new to me is still when he's punching up a sense of humor about this shit?

Cole Kushner (41:08)

Punching up. And yeah, a sense of humor. I get that.

Charles Holmes (41:10)

And I not going back to the Clinton line, but one of my favorite parts from this song is the closing of verse one when he says, you want me to fix up lyric. You want me to fix up lyrics. While the president kills, gets his dick suck that take drugs, rape, slugs make fun of gay clubs Wake up, get aware Wake up, get a sense of humor. It's just the internal rhyme of him rhyming the fix up, rape, sluts, makeup, wake up. And then contrasting that with the take drugs, gay clubs and forcing those rhymes together. And what I think is also so cool about it is if you break it down, because I was highlighting a lot of rappers when they're trying to force those rhymes are going to have the rhyme. Him ending it where it's like, with fix up, it's in the middle. Wake up is in the Middle and then rape, sluts and make up is. Is at the end. So he's very, very good at not forcing the rhyme to always end at the. At the line. Like he's very, very good at mixing it up. So your ear is always trying to catch where it's happening.

Cole Kushner (42:14)

Yeah, it's funny that you point that out because in the. The line I read earlier, I wrote the master of the forced rhyme or the slant rhyme where he says. And I. And last week I seen this Schwarzenegger movie where he's shooting all sorts of these with an Uzi. So it's like, it sounds like it rhymes. He's rhyming Schwarzenegger movie. All sorts of these. All sorts. Schwartz.

Charles Holmes (42:39)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (42:39)

So he's getting. He's sneaking in internals. The whole thing doesn't match syllable for syllable, but your ear just registers as. As this multi syllabic like rhyme. He's so good at forcing things that sound like they rhyme when they don't. When you just read them aloud. But the way that he performs them, the way he kind of emphasizes certain syllables, like he's a master at. At that and creating these internal cadences, external cadences, the rhymes. And it gets a little bit gross or does get gross later in his career. But at this time I feel like he's. There's a balance between.

Charles Holmes (43:14)

He's not pointing to. Towards it in like a song like Rap God. He's pointing towards how technically proficient and great he is. And on someone like, who knew? It's like you don't. If you blink or you're not paying attention, you. You forget which to me is the mark of great songwriting. A lot of times with like Kendrick Lamar. My favorite Kendrick Lamar songs are when he's actually not pointing to. To how good of a rapper he is. It's more so I'm like, oh, he's so great. On every listen I'm picking up something where I'm like, like, oh, shit. He just did something amazing. But he made it look so easy.

Cole Kushner (43:48)

It's like, it's like good movies where directors don't. It's like you're not. There's some great movies that really point. Draw attention to itself. And it's.

Charles Holmes (43:57)

Yeah, it's.

Cole Kushner (43:58)

It's like, look how cool this scene is shot and it's very flashy. Or there's other more understated movies where you're just so enamored in the storytelling. It's only when you take a step back and say, oh, actually this is really well put together. Yet it struck this balance of like, it's still immersive, where you're not so detached of like just watching this guy show off, essentially.

Charles Holmes (44:20)

I could not agree more. But my last, my last category for best moment, to me, this was pretty easy. And y' all correct me if I'm wrong, if I should have gone with something else. Everything that has become of Stan, where this was produced by the 45 King, samples Dido's 1998 song thank youk. Obviously, one of the most iconic moments, moments from this song that I remember is when he performs it with Elton John at the 2001 Grammy Awards after Glad had gone after Eminem, kind of rightfully so. Some of the lyrics, I'm like, there is a difference between censorship and Eminem just constantly poking the bear, right? So I get both sides of it. But the reason why I wanted to single out Stan as a moment is because you can make an argument that Stan is one of the most important songs that has been released in the 21st century. Just because Eminem, very early in his career is pointing, is putting his finger on something that would come to define how we talk about just art in general. And I'm not even just talking about how we use Stan as a word. I'm more so talking about what fandom would become. And what I mean by that is this is pre social media, but already Eminem is feeling the effects of being on MTV and VH1 and BET and this time, where the 24 hour news cycle is at its pinnacle and already it's starting to destroy him. You can see how much Eminem, to me, wants to be respected in hip hop as a lyricist. He wants to be a capital A artist, but the machine is pushing him to be a pop star. And whether it's Taylor Swift or Drake or Kanye, this feeling of Stan and what fandom had become just permeates music to such an extent. And yeah, it's kind of amazing that. That what this. Now, this word is only what this comes out in 2001. So this word is only 24 years old. And it seems like I can't remember a time when this wasn't a word that we used right to talk about fandom, which is crazy.

Cole Kushner (46:46)

Yeah, it is, because it is. So we use it so much and it articulates exactly a certain type of person, a certain type of mentality and relationship with celebrity that seems to be increasingly with social media and stuff. We are so close to celebrity that even more than he was experiencing now, you know, all of Us are out there on social media, and it's easier to cut. These parasocial relationships are easier to kind of to build.

Charles Holmes (47:13)

I mean, it's what. Here's what I'll say. What's crazy? There are people right now that are alive that use the word Stan that have never listened to this song. I started thinking about that where it's just like. Like your daughters have probably heard have that your daughter searched stand before. No, but do you think if you were just like. If you describe, oh, that's a stand, do you think that they would understand what that means?

Cole Kushner (47:33)

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Charles Holmes (47:34)

You know what I mean? Where I'm like, oh, to me, I remember when Stan came out. I remember the video. I remember all this stuff. And we're so far from that moment. You ne. There are people who have never heard of Eminem, like, who have never heard an Eminem song who are still like, you're acting like a stand.

Cole Kushner (47:48)

Right? Yeah. I mean, also, the storytelling of the song is, like, undeniably great. It's, like, so fluid. There's a twist ending in a way that I don't think we've ever heard in hip hop before. Again, my mind goes back to Kendrick, and I think he takes a lot from Stan in terms of just good storytelling, using all the verses, not just one verse telling a specific story, but creating an entire arc over the course of a song and then having a. A impactful ending with a twist. There's an emotional resonance to the song that. And yeah, to your point, I remember the Elton John performance. Very iconic. The only one I would say is we already talked about it, though, is the. The VMA performance. That's so such iconic too. But I get. I get why you chose this.

Charles Holmes (48:34)

And yeah, my last thoughts on Stan, if we're just talking about the song you're going to. And is Kendrick there yet in terms of, like, his what? Eminem is really good. Like, I think if I had to choose who's the better rapper, I think Kendrick Lamar is easily the better rapper. But in terms of a song like Stan, I still don't know if Kendrick has perfectly been able to do the thing where he's becoming another character. Where it's like, on this, Eminem is, like, acting wise. He is so good at playing a role in a way where I was just like, when most other rappers do it, I'm just like, oh, I can tell that they're really struggling with this. Where it's like, Eminem, to me, is almost more comfortable playing characters where he's more comfortable being Slim Shady. He's more comfortable being Stan. He's very, very. It almost to me sometimes gives him an excuse to get out of himself and play around and be a little bit goofy. Where like, I was like, is there any rapper you can think of in history that. That does it as well as Eminem?

Cole Kushner (49:38)

Can probably not. Justin, anything anyone come into mind for you?

C (49:44)

It's funny to think about him as this like multi tool athlete like that, because it seemed. It feels very one note. But like, no, I mean, I think Charles is kind of dead on about that.

Cole Kushner (49:53)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (49:55)

I can't believe I have this much positive stuff to say about going back to this album. I was like, yo, I love this record.

Cole Kushner (50:04)

Yeah, I. Yeah, I was surprised. I do like every word.

Charles Holmes (50:07)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (50:07)

To most of the songs. Like, it's like, it's just one of those albums that are just embedded.

Charles Holmes (50:12)

It's embedded and it is just. It's undeniable.

Cole Kushner (50:15)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (50:16)

I was listening to the real Slim Shady Kill you criminal. There was moments on ever, even the songs I didn't like, I was like, eminem's rapping and what you have to think about is this comes out a year after the. The Slim Shady LP. I think he created this in a 10 month span.

Cole Kushner (50:32)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (50:32)

So to have this much creativity, these many bars.

Cole Kushner (50:37)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (50:37)

Is just.

Cole Kushner (50:38)

Yeah, we should. Yeah. I don't know if we emphasize how good the rapping on this thing is.

Charles Holmes (50:42)

It's phenomenal.

Cole Kushner (50:44)

Phenomenal. Justin, like, historically, could you paint the picture just a little bit about like, what. What Eminem kind of contributed in terms of like, it feels like there's a before and after Eminem.

C (50:58)

Yeah, there's a lot there.

Cole Kushner (51:00)

Right?

C (51:00)

There is. On one level, you had rappers that were really flipping these polysyllabic rhyme schemes. Right. You had your cool G raps. Even Rakim was doing things like that. But I always think of cool G rap as the golden age rapper that was really doing that. And like, rappers like AZ and Nas and Big Pun most directly were very influenced by cool G rap. But Eminem, like, stylistically, he just. You're talking about with those slant rhymes and just how all these words are rhyming. And just the way. What he was able to do with the way he bent syllables and words really kind of just changed how people were rapping. And then like one thing that we are, that we've barely touched on is the whiteness. And there had really not been a credible mainstream white rapper.

Cole Kushner (52:03)

Right.

C (52:04)

Like, there were. There were white rappers that were like, you Know, just going back their.

Charles Holmes (52:12)

I don't.

C (52:12)

I think about a rapper like Milk Bone, who. Like, whatever. I think of, like, third base.

Charles Holmes (52:16)

Those.

C (52:16)

They were legends, but they weren't huge. When you think of huge white rappers, you kind of had your Vanilla Ice. You kind of had your Marky Mark. They were people that really weren't taken seriously. And for as. I think as it relates to this.

Cole Kushner (52:31)

Album.

C (52:34)

For as good as the rapping was on the Slim Shady lp, there's a chance that his second album comes out and flops, and he is just kind of remembered as a more talented version of Vanilla Ice. The fact that this album comes along and does what it does and he's doing what he does so well, and it makes him just this true, like, cultural figure, for better or worse. I guess that's the thing, right? Like, for.

Cole Kushner (53:04)

For. Because this opens the floodgates.

C (53:06)

It opens the floodgates, right?

Cole Kushner (53:08)

Yeah.

C (53:09)

So, you know, I think that it's hard to make a list of most talented rappers ever and not put Eminem on it.

Cole Kushner (53:17)

Yeah.

C (53:17)

I also think it's hard to not make a list of maybe the worst things that have ever happened to hip hop and not think about what Eminem did.

Charles Holmes (53:28)

Right.

C (53:28)

It's this crazy thing, like, he's so credible, he's so good, but everything that came about after him.

Charles Holmes (53:36)

I don't know. And I also. I think in a mainstream context, the thing that I. Even in this album, when Eminem raps, I don't make white music. I don't make black music. I don't make white music. I make fight music. Even at this time, I feel like he was starting to understand that he had become this symbol for a certain demographic of white Americans who really did not have. Have someone like him speaking to them. And what I mean by that is, like, he's coming from the Midwest, trailer park, extremely poor, loves black music, loves hip hop. And he's doing it in such a credible way, and he's doing it, and he's so talented, and he's someone who can show up on the blueprint with Jay Z and not get washed.

Cole Kushner (54:26)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (54:26)

That, to most white fans, was something that probably was never gonna happen. Happen.

Cole Kushner (54:31)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (54:31)

And to me, the tragedy of kind of Eminem is that as his career progresses and as he becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, he influences artists that are, to Justin's point, that are way less talented than him to be talking to a certain subset of the country that a lot of times can speak to some of the darkest, most racist words. And I don't think that's Eminem's fault. I just think that it is just. It's the way our country is built, and he's tried to fight against that.

Cole Kushner (55:06)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (55:07)

I will say I have not co signed everything Eminem has done. I am a very, very. Like, I'm. I have a very complicated relationship with him and everything that's happened, but I never doubted for a second that he loved hip hop. He never did that shit where it's like, oh, I released a rap album. Now I'm gonna go do rock. Like. Like, even when he drops his albums now, I'm like, this isn't for me. This. To my ear, it sounds whack. But he still loves hip hop. He still loves rapping. You can't. He respects. He knows more about hip hop than I. Like. Like, he's forgotten more about hip hop than I can remember. You know that you can never take that away from him.

Cole Kushner (55:43)

Yeah.

C (55:44)

I mean, this is a record.

Cole Kushner (55:44)

It's.

C (55:45)

You know, has Rakim references on it.

Charles Holmes (55:48)

Right.

C (55:48)

And compare that to somebody like mgk.

Charles Holmes (55:52)

Right. We see what MGK is doing now, and I like some MGK records. We.

C (55:56)

We know you do. We're actually well aware.

Charles Holmes (55:58)

I love this top punk album. Do you know this?

Cole Kushner (56:01)

Really?

Charles Holmes (56:01)

I loved it.

Cole Kushner (56:02)

I didn't even push play on it. It's weird. Is this a cultural exchange album?

Charles Holmes (56:08)

No, absolutely not. I think I made Rob Harvilla listen to it. Okay, we want to go to Igor.

Cole Kushner (56:14)

Yeah, let's take a break. We'll come back and do Igor. I'm excited.

Charles Holmes (56:17)

I'm super excited. All right. We are back. Instead of going to the odd past, I think it's time we go to an odd future.

Cole Kushner (56:29)

Oh, my God.

Charles Holmes (56:31)

You like that? I was working on that.

Cole Kushner (56:33)

Did you think about that in the bathroom?

Charles Holmes (56:35)

Yeah. I'll take a piss. We took a break, guys. All right, it's time for Toddler Creators. Igor, can you tell people a little bit about the song?

Cole Kushner (56:42)

Yeah. It releases on May 17, 2019. It sells 165,000 copies in its first week. It is Tyler's first number one album. It is also the album that got him his first Grammy Award for Best Rap album, somewhat controversially. And it spawns just one single in Earthquake, which I know you love. And let's just get into the reason why I picked this one, I think. Well, okay, you have a complicated relationship with Tyler. Maybe let's start there. Let's table set that, and then we're gonna. But you also love Igor.

Charles Holmes (57:16)

I love Igor. So I love Tyler. When I say I have a complicated relationship with Tyler, it's. He is, he is one of those artists that you, that is your age. So I was there for it all. So I was there when I was angry, when everybody was yelling at Odd Future for saying, kill people, burn school. I've been there since Bastard. I saw all the mixtapes, everything I I from day one. And to me, Tyler is not as great of a rapper as Jay Z, but to me, he has the same tendency of like, one album, I'll like, the other album, I will be like, this is not fucking for me. But what is funny about his career is we are like the inverse. Where the Tyler albums that I love are your lesser, like, are lesser ones for you and vice versa. And I think Igor is the marriage of both of us being like, yeah, we love this album. This album is undeniable, which is obviously why it went.

Cole Kushner (58:21)

Yeah, I think, I mean, to me it's. It showcases everything that Tyler's been working towards his entire career. I think one of the interesting things about Tyler's career, to your point, about him coming up so early, being famous at 17, 18, building this reputation not only on like this goth, core shock, rap kind of approach, but also his antics outside of the music, his TV shows, his loud personality. And he was kind of just pigeonholed as a guy that makes music, but also as like a character is funny. And what's interesting, and what I love about his career is that in real time, because he did enter the public consciousness so young, is that we've gotten to see him evolve as an artist in real time, and we can trace that artistic evolution through each album because in my mind, it's a pretty linear. The trajectory is just always up where I think he's gotten better and better as an artist. I think he's had more to say as a person through each project. Whether it's your favorite or not, that's one thing. But in terms of his technical skill level, like the progression from Cherry Bomb to Flower Boy to Igor to Call me if you get lost to now Chromacopia, he's just getting better and better and getting more comfortable, experimenting with different world building and sounds. And I think Igor is that nice balance between what he tried to do with Cherry Bomb, which was more experimental and genre bending. What he ended up perfecting in Flower Boy, which was song structure and finally becoming more traditional songwriter and understanding how to make catchy hooks with. With melody, balancing that with the rap. And so once you get to Igor, he Was able to. I think, for the first time. Flower Boy is a great album, but it's a little bit more one dimensional than Igor. And when we get to Igor, he's able. He's. He's perfected so many skills in his. In his kind of toolkit that he is able to craft an album that is experimental, is melodic, is catchy, but also unique. And it's a singular vision in terms of, like, I can. As just like a twisted fantasy. I can not only hear the sound of Igor, I can also, like, picture the album in my head. He's gotten to the point with Igor that the world building and all the ancillary visuals and music videos and everything that surrounds the album really all amalgamate into the. Each. Each of these worlds that he builds with each other with each album and each roll out. And for me, Igor, maybe I just like the sound of Igor the best because it is a little more. It's kind of got Yeezus elements to it. There's a lot of distortion. It's a little rough around the edges, but then it has this great contrast in, like, melody. He's not really rapping on this album at all, which was part of the problem that he had with winning the best rap album at the Grammys, which he was very vocal about.

Charles Holmes (61:23)

Can I also say this, though, about this album, which I find super fascinating, if I just complimented Eminem for having one of the best voices in hip hop. I think Tyler the Creator has one of the most iconic voices in hip hop, but almost also one of the more limited ones. When we were talking about. When you were talking about Beyonce last episode, you were like, hey, like a voice as an instrument for humans, it's like, you got what you got.

Cole Kushner (61:54)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (61:54)

And for Beyonce, she's blessed by God. And I think in a. In a different way, Tyler the creator is also blessed by God. When he arrives on the track, you know his voice.

Cole Kushner (62:04)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (62:04)

Like most people. Like how many people in hip hop history where I would put Rick Ross in this ODB and like even Lil Wayne mixtape Wayne, when you hear their voice, there's something that is so, like, cuts through the record. But the other side of that is Tyler has been very, very vocal about this is that he's a rap. Like, he's an R B singer in a rapper's body. He wants to sing. And with each project, he was pushing that and pushing that whether it was like getting good at producing other R B singers and then getting a little bit more melodic himself. And I think Igor is The moment where he finds the exact way to use his instrument to the best of his abilities. And that's why I love it, because I'm like, he never gave up on it incrementally. He's just like, all right, how can I sell this? How can I be a singer?

Cole Kushner (62:58)

And it's. Yeah, it's cell. It's the perfect phrase. Because he doesn't have a great singing voice. Just technically just doesn't have. He can't sing.

Charles Holmes (63:04)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (63:05)

Yet the same conversation we had about Runaway, if you do it correctly, you can actually work that. You can use that as to your advantage if you're creative with it. Like, if you. He does a lot of pitch shifting on this album in terms of, like, when you. We do hear his voice, for the most part, it is pitched up, which gives it just like. And he's playing this character of Igor the whole time. So it does give it this, like, very distinct identity. And to your point. Yeah, him with Flower Boy, he was like. He was giving Frank Goshen the hook. He was giving Kali Uchis the hook or. And he was getting. Getting traditional singers to sing the melodies I think he wrote, and he got really good at doing that. But with Igor, there's not a. There's not a ton of features. Maybe he has Charlie Wilson come back him up. So a hit like Igor does or like Earthquake works. But for the most part, Igor is all him, and he is using his voice in very interesting ways. Are you ready for some album trivia?

Charles Holmes (64:01)

All right, y'.

Cole Kushner (64:02)

All.

Charles Holmes (64:03)

I was unfairly attacked and ridiculed for my well researched questions. So I've tried my best to not get yelled at again. Okay, I have two questions for you. I'm going to give you. Do you want the harder one first or the softball?

Cole Kushner (64:17)

Let's go softball.

Charles Holmes (64:18)

What artist gave Tyler more confidence to sing on this record?

Cole Kushner (64:24)

My favorite, My goat, Kendrick Lamar.

Charles Holmes (64:27)

It was Kendrick Lamar. I know I'm not the best singer, but a friend of mine named Kendrick, I played him some stuff and he. He said, oh, this shit is just feeling. You weren't worried about the technical being perfect with your vocal. It was actual emotion. What I find so great about that, to me, Kendrick Lamar is also someone with a limited singing voice where it's like, he can do a lot with his regular rapping voice, but when it comes to being more melodic, he's also an artist that very. With very incremental jumps. You can see from section 80 to good kids to Butterfly to Damn. Not only is he getting better and it's funny that they're both west coast artists. Artist getting better at strong song structure, but getting better at selling a record. You don't have to always be hitting the correct notes. And to me, Kendrick is the master of this, of just like, oh, I get the feeling of it.

Cole Kushner (65:14)

Right.

Charles Holmes (65:15)

I wouldn't want someone else doing this, like, little alien vocal. I mean, Kendrick doing.

Cole Kushner (65:21)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (65:21)

So that was a softball. This one is a little bit more difficult.

Cole Kushner (65:24)

Okay. Like, at one point. First point of the season.

Charles Holmes (65:26)

First point of the season, Tyler revealed to Zane Low that the Igor character with the short Bob premiered three years before we got the actual album. Can you tell me where Igor was premiered?

Cole Kushner (65:41)

Dude, I know this three years before, so that's cherry bomb. I definitely have not known this, but this is a great question, and what.

Charles Holmes (65:54)

Is it he said in the interview. I had been drawing that character for three years now. It's actually in a stop motion I did for this Vice show. It's a little stop motion video. I did it as black hair, but it's the short bob cut and the glasses and the gold teeth. And I didn't write this down. One of the things that, once again, I think Tyler is such a smart artist. He was just like. I changed up the black hair to blonde because the blonde fit better with the undertones of my skin. Yeah, he's so, like. He's such a visual artist, and everything he does is so beautiful. But now I'm gonna throw to Justin real quick. Justin, were those fair questions compared to the previous episodes?

C (66:35)

Yeah, maybe a little too fair on that first one.

Charles Holmes (66:38)

You can't. You guys.

C (66:40)

Yeah, you know.

Charles Holmes (66:41)

You know what it is?

C (66:42)

You know what it is. It's like when you need to get something going on offense. Sometimes you just gotta hit a layup. Right. Sometimes you just gotta get an easy shot. Start trying to make the threes.

Charles Holmes (66:52)

Right.

C (66:52)

So I appreciate you giving Cole the layup. I expect him to go on a little bit of a run now, but.

Charles Holmes (66:57)

We'Re gonna see how it works. Hell, yeah. All right. Biggest song. We already know what it is.

Cole Kushner (67:02)

Gotta go. Earthquake.

Charles Holmes (67:03)

Don't leave. It's my fault. I love this song.

Cole Kushner (67:25)

I think you like this song more than I do.

Charles Holmes (67:27)

Wait, what? This is a perf. This is. Okay, outside of Yonkers, this is Tyler Creator's second greatest song. This is one of his best songs ever. This is an undeniable.

Cole Kushner (67:37)

Yonkers being Powder's best song is a basic Betty take. Dude, that's.

Charles Holmes (67:42)

That is a horrible. Never made a better song than Yonkers.

Cole Kushner (67:45)

You fucking crazy.

Charles Holmes (67:46)

Can you back me up?

Cole Kushner (67:47)

You're fucking crazy. That is a crazy.

C (67:49)

He's made better songs than God.

Charles Holmes (67:53)

I.

C (67:53)

You know, I actually. I don't know what Charles is saying makes some sense. Oh, I think if you, like, go through the craft and the way the songs are written. Yeah. You can find a bunch of stuff. Like, there's better songs on Call, Call Me if youf Get Lost. There's better songs on Flower Boy. There are better songs on this record. Has he ever made a song that's evoked that. That Yonkers feeling?

Charles Holmes (68:16)

That's a hip hop. So that's a punch you in the gut. Like, I could put on Yonkers right now. Be like, that nigga was big.

Cole Kushner (68:25)

Damn, this fucking wild take.

Charles Holmes (68:30)

All right, anyway.

Cole Kushner (68:31)

Okay, Earthquake.

Charles Holmes (68:32)

Okay.

Cole Kushner (68:33)

I think a good entry point to Earthquake is knowing. I was thinking this was going to be part of your trivia, that it was intentionally written for Justin Bieber. Tyler has long been wanted to be in that Pharrell kind of space and where he's producing for other people, he's writing songs for other people, not necessarily Justin Bieber.

Charles Holmes (68:51)

A couple songs.

Cole Kushner (68:52)

Yeah. And for whatever reason, I mean, Earthquake's a strange song. It does have a catchy hook. And the hook is written to be, like, very. You know, it's a. It's a perfect pop hook in terms of it. Very simple. You can sing it on the second time you hear it. And it's an earworm. He also tried to give it to Rihanna after Justin Bieber rejected it. But I think it's a good entry point to the song because it's essentially just two hooks. If you actually. You don't realize it when you're listening to it, but the whole song is the part you just the. It's. Can you make my Earthquake riding around? You're shaking me up. It's making my heart break. And then it's the B section. Don't leave. It's my fault. Tyler doesn't rap. He doesn't really do anything else on the song except those two parts. And then he gives Cardi a feature, which is like, this is a top.

Charles Holmes (69:43)

10 feature of all time. Not of all time, but of at least the 21st century.

Cole Kushner (69:47)

I think it's Tyler doing the Kanye thing where it's like, who else would ever think to put Carti on Earthquake? It's a pretty genius move because for some reason, it works really, really well.

Charles Holmes (70:00)

And he distills what makes it's funny. I think for A lot of people who aren't super into hip hop, when they hear Playboi Cardi, they're like, what. What are these, baby Squeaks? The this, right? And to me, Tyler does that perfect Pharrell Kanye thing that we talk about where he's like, he knows what makes Playboi Carti so interesting. And then he just distills it into the best pop package. Yeah, we ain't got a ball with D Rose. I don't give a fuck about that.

Cole Kushner (70:26)

What is he even saying? What is he even saying? I remember I had to try. I had to try to. Because I did a dissect on this album, so I had to analyze that verse. Can't remember what it.

Charles Holmes (70:36)

I went to Aliyah, you know, Vicky.

Cole Kushner (70:41)

But the vibe is great. The vibe is great. It fits the song perfectly. What do you. I mean, what do you like about Earthquake so much?

Charles Holmes (70:47)

It's because Tyler, the creator and I are the same age. I think the reason, the same reasons that I dislike him are the same reasons that I love him is because we have the same touch points, culture. You know, when he's bringing Charlie Wilson on a record, I remember my parents listening to Charlie Wilson. He's doing his best for all impression. I remember my feelings of hearing Neptune's beats and super thug and everything. Same with Playboi Carti.

Cole Kushner (71:19)

Or even, like the early 2000s, like R& B and neo soul that he.

Charles Holmes (71:22)

Loves so much, that the artist that Tyler loves, because their touchstones are me. Like, when he's. I think especially for younger. For a younger demographic that Tyler definitely speaks to, to them, when they hear a beat, they like, dog. This is the most transformational thing I've ever heard. To me, I'm just like, oh, that's Neptune's. And not in a bad way. I'm just like, you can just hear it. And to me, I think Earthquake works for me because it was like the first time where I'm like, I could still hear the influences, but only Tyler could have made this record. Like, I don't. Yeah, I don't think Justin Bieber. This would have been a hit with Justin Bieber. No, Like, I think just. I think Tyler is what makes this interesting.

Cole Kushner (72:05)

Yeah. Yeah, you're exactly right. And yeah, I think also to. That's a great point about his artistry in terms of, like, amalgamating all his influences. I think Igor's the first time where it's like, yeah, you can still identify influences, but you would never say this sounds like that. Like, Igor is one Hundred percent. I think. A singular work. I don't think. I don't. There's not a song on here where it feels so directly derivative of a Neptune's. You know, you can hear the influence. But he's gotten to the point where all those influences now, you know, converged into something totally brand new, which is, again, so interesting about his career. You can hear where early in his career, all the influences, like a lot of young artists, are just on their sleeve. It's. You know, it's very obvious. You go back to Cherry Bomb's opening track, and it's, like, essentially a Neptune song.

Charles Holmes (72:56)

Yep.

Cole Kushner (72:56)

And. But. But by the time we get to Igor and everything else after, I think he's done a brilliant job about.

Charles Holmes (73:03)

So why are you hard on this song? Because to me, this is not only the biggest song off this record. I could make it a very, very valid case that this is also the best song on the record. It is undeniable.

Cole Kushner (73:16)

It's a great song. It's catchy. I just think there's more interesting songs that fulfill my, my don't hit you.

Charles Holmes (73:22)

In your soul Like, I. When I put this on yesterday, I'm like, I was dancing. I was just like, I love this. I can't believe I'm being so positive about that.

Cole Kushner (73:30)

I love it. Okay, so should we go on to best song? I'm very interested to know your best song, but I'm going with. With the best song on the album, which is New Magic Wand.

Charles Holmes (73:43)

I hate this song.

Cole Kushner (73:44)

You hate this song?

Charles Holmes (73:45)

I don't like this song.

Cole Kushner (73:46)

Wait, what?

Charles Holmes (73:47)

This is everything I don't like about Tyler in one package. I don't.

Cole Kushner (73:51)

You know, this is his favorite song of all. Like, the favorite song, his favorite song he's ever written, really. At least post Igor. I don't know if that's still true after, like, Chromacopia, but he's very adamant about this song being, like, his best. Well, I got a plan with the.

Charles Holmes (74:06)

Walk in the bin if you can't understand I'm a hawk in the gym Eyes on the fly I got weight on my chest that I need to get off like, talking to them can't.

Cole Kushner (74:12)

Be in the picture. Okay.

Charles Holmes (74:19)

It's a great.

Cole Kushner (74:20)

Like, I think it's everything. It's like. Well, it's interesting making the parallel between M. Because New Magic Wand is essentially a murder fantasy. So the story of Igor, very quickly, is essentially a bisexual love triangle where Tyler loves a man, the man's in a relationship with a woman, and Tyler's Trying to get the guy. The guy likes the girl, but is also leading Tyler on. And so that's essentially the whole album is like. It's like. It's desire, it's obsession, it's release and acceptance at the end. And it's kind of lemonade in terms of, like, you're getting this emotional trajectory of what it feels like to be rejected and all the stages of unrequited love is essentially the story of the album. And New Magic Wand is like the bitter kind of resentful, if you don't love me, I'm gonna kill you type of experience. It has the great lyric, I need to get her out the picture, essentially playing on this idea of the New Magic Wand being a Photoshop wand and erasing her out of the picture so that. That him and this guy could be together. Tyler said this about New Magic Wand, quote. I've also come to the conclusion that this is my favorite song I've ever made. It's so Tyler. Everything I've attempted in one, everything I've attempted in one, executed perfectly. So if you break down the song, which I. I'll just play you a couple excerpts because what. The production on this song, I don't know what you don't. What you don't like about this song, but the production is great. And when you hear just the instrumental, it'll give you a more of a. Appreciation for all the details. And when he talks about everything that I've tried to do in one song, this is part of it. The level of production and detail. And production is really great. So let me just play you this clip of the verse. All those sounds. So just the little details of the. The Congo's coming in and out, the little synthesizers coming in and out. You're not impressed. You're looking at me like I'm crazy.

Charles Holmes (76:35)

It's a good beat. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna be hater. Like, that's a dope beat. It's just like. Like earthquake to me. The reason I like a song like that is because I think my biggest critique of Tyler is that he's so busy. Like, his beats, the way he, like, it's every single idea he's ever had. And I think New Magic Wand is like, to. To Tyler's point, I think it is the best of him doing that thing of, like, I'm going to make this undeniable, but it's still going to be busy where Earthquake to Me succeeds, because he finally just kind of like, let's. It's so minimal. I even think. Think at when he was performing, it was in this complex. Like, basically when he was premiering the album, he said he was inspired by his, like, one of his really good friends and how minimal his house was in la. And those are the parts of the album that I like the most, which.

Cole Kushner (77:28)

Feel more stripped down.

Charles Holmes (77:29)

More stripped down. He's not trying to impress. It's all because to me, that's harder. Like, that's the real hard thing as a producer. Be like. And like, what you just played me sounds so, so, so fucking dope. It just takes me out of the minimal.

Cole Kushner (77:42)

I get it. Well, completely opposite of that, because this next part is really cool because there's three simultaneous vocal layers. So I wanted to point out. So when we listen, listen for the three simultaneous vocal layers stacked on top of each other. I think it's really cool. We got the Please don't leave me. We got the, like, magic. Like, magic chant. And then a woman comes in singing, I can make her leave. And just listen to how these things all stack up on each other. I think it's a really cool section of the song. Stuff as hell.

Charles Holmes (78:30)

No, it's not moving me, Cole.

Cole Kushner (78:33)

I know. I'm sorry.

Charles Holmes (78:34)

I don't.

Cole Kushner (78:35)

I'm doing my best.

Charles Holmes (78:36)

I like to groove.

Cole Kushner (78:40)

Well, then I'll spare you the ending. I think the ending's really cool.

Charles Holmes (78:43)

Whoa, don't spare me. I'm still. I can be dissected still.

Cole Kushner (78:47)

Have you. Okay, hold on. Have you seen Tyler the Creator live? You haven't seen this song live?

Charles Holmes (78:53)

I. Well, I haven't seen him. You're gonna get so mad at me. What time in college. This was actually when I was like, I'm off Tyler. I had bought Tyler tickets, and I sold them because I was like, I don't even want to go. Like, I was so just like, I'm.

Cole Kushner (79:04)

Oh, my God.

Charles Holmes (79:06)

This is actually Flower boy era.

Cole Kushner (79:08)

Really? That was a great tour. Okay, New Magic Wand is the best song. What is your. What is your best song?

Charles Holmes (79:14)

Wait, wait, before.

Cole Kushner (79:15)

No, it's fine. It's fine. What's your best song?

Charles Holmes (79:18)

Can you guess?

Cole Kushner (79:20)

Aside from Earthquake. All right, so if you like the stripped down song structure, you like the catchy stuff, you're like, I think is that.

Charles Holmes (79:31)

That's my second favorite. This is. That's a champ.

Cole Kushner (79:34)

That's a great song.

Charles Holmes (79:36)

Tyler. Solange. We're gonna talk about Solange later. Have great chemistry.

Cole Kushner (79:40)

They do. Yeah.

Charles Holmes (79:40)

The hook, I think, is one of the best hooks that he's ever fucking. Written, it's. I think I've fallen in love this time. I think it's for real. Can I tell you? How can I tell? Like, come on. It's undeniable. This is what I love from Ty Tyler.

Cole Kushner (79:57)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (79:57)

If I could get two Tyler records, right, if I could get, like, two different Tyler records, both would not be produced by him. I would want one that is just, like, get Pharrell and Chad in a room, tell him to kiss and make up. Stop beefing. I think a Neptune's produced Tyler record would be insane. And then the other one I would want would be in the Earthquake break. I think mold and him actually, like, going to, like, R B producers. Because while I do like Tyler's beats, I just. Sometimes I love when he's just rapping over someone else's production because I think it almost gives him just more time to be like, all right, I'm a flex. I love the flexing records. And on. I think he's just so good at, like, melody and hooks and everything.

Cole Kushner (80:47)

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I do think. I do think there's a world in which Tyler is bigger than he is now. If he doesn't. If he's not an auteur and doing every single part of the beat, doing everything part of the album himself, and he essentially doesn't work with collaborators too often. Do you think he would be a bigger artist if he did jump on other people's production and did collaborate more?

Charles Holmes (81:13)

I think he would be, because.

Cole Kushner (81:15)

Let me preface that. While I think he's a very talented producer and why a part of a lot of the reason why I love him is because his production is so interesting. It is also. It is what limits him commercially, I think, because it is so strange, you.

Charles Holmes (81:30)

Know, I think he potentially would be a more commercially viable artist in terms of having bigger hit singles. I don't know if he would have the longevity that he's bought himself. Yeah, great point where when you sign up for a Tyler record, whether you are a super fan like you or I commented out, like, me, I'm always like, I'm gonna give his record a shot. Because I'm just like. I want to see the world that he's creating. If you take somebody like J. Cole, I think J. Cole, Tyler's production is good enough and often great enough where it's just like, I'm there. Like, I'm just like. He can. Like, sometimes I'm. I am like, no Justin Bieber. You should take a fucking Tyler record. You shouldn't let him produce the whole thing.

Cole Kushner (82:16)

Right.

Charles Holmes (82:17)

But I'm like, damn, if you working with Dijon and McGee, like, throw some Tyler a bone. But it's. Yeah, like I said, it's tough because I think Tyler has now become an artist in the vein of a Kanye, and you do not get to that point unless you are so protective.

Cole Kushner (82:36)

Yeah, but.

Charles Holmes (82:36)

But the thing that he doesn't do that Connie does so well is I'm like, Kanye lets other producers come in. Like, sometimes I'm like, hey, yo, Tyler, like, let somebody else with some drums come in here. Let somebody else, like, can you imagine if he worked with all of the same producers that Connie has brought in, what they could help Tyler unlock, you know?

Cole Kushner (82:56)

Yeah. It's also what I love about him, though, because it is such a singular vision, and he has the capability to do it. So. So next category. So your best song would have been.

Charles Holmes (83:07)

I think my best song. My best song, if I couldn't pick Earthquake, if we're being interesting, would have been. I think now it's time for worst song. We already know which one I was gonna pick, which is a new Magic Wand. Just kidding.

Cole Kushner (83:18)

Okay.

Charles Holmes (83:18)

I'm just.

Cole Kushner (83:18)

Okay, okay.

Charles Holmes (83:19)

It is actually the. The. Your one is actually the objectively correct one.

Cole Kushner (83:24)

I think so. I mean, it's. If you see it. I've seen it twice now live or three times now live. I don't think you could actually fully understand the song until you see it live. It is, like, incredible. Legitimately incredible. That whole outro where it. After that alarm sound, and then the beat comes back in. He's kind of yelling. It's. It's really, really good live song, so. But my worst song is Puppet.

Charles Holmes (83:55)

Control Me. I'm your puppet. I don't know me.

Cole Kushner (84:03)

I don't like Puppet. Do you like Puppet?

Charles Holmes (84:05)

No, I. We.

Cole Kushner (84:06)

This was hard.

Charles Holmes (84:07)

Yeah, it's.

Cole Kushner (84:08)

There wasn't a. It's kind of like Lemonade to me, where there's not just, like. There's not a bad. I don't think there's a bad song on Igor. I think that's what makes it great. But Puppet to me just doesn't work in the way as well as most of the other songs do. It's got a great chorus. It's got a lazy Kanye feature that. That seems just improv and not finished. And it's the. It's the one song that works the least for me.

Charles Holmes (84:34)

I totally agree, but it was funny going. Listening to Puppet to your point. This is not. This is not a record that and it shows you just kind of the progression of these artists where Igor is not a hip hop record. But it's like when you're listening to Marshall Mathers or Blueprint, there's enough songs where you're like, there's going to be duds. Igor is such a contained package in the same way of Lemonade where you're like, we're not talking about worst song, really. We're talking kind of the least effective song.

Cole Kushner (85:03)

Right.

Charles Holmes (85:03)

The one that does not sell the theme or the larger arc of the album. And I think Puppy is the one for me where it's like, it does not really adhere as well or sell the world in the way that the other songs like I Think or Earth Earthquake or even New Magic Wand due to Me do for me.

Cole Kushner (85:22)

All right. Best deep cut was. It was a tough one to me because I think could have been a best deep cut. I don't know if that's. That's a pretty big song, but Can We Be Friends? The last song. I really love that song. Boy is a Gun is really good.

Charles Holmes (85:37)

I'm not a fan of Boy's Gun.

Cole Kushner (85:39)

Oh, really?

Charles Holmes (85:39)

I don't like Boy's a Gun either.

Cole Kushner (85:40)

Interesting.

Charles Holmes (85:41)

It's okay.

Cole Kushner (85:42)

It's like the most traditional rap song on the album. Okay.

Charles Holmes (85:45)

I like a very specific type of Tyler rapping to be.

Cole Kushner (85:49)

You like the darker.

Charles Holmes (85:50)

No, like, what's the. What was. What beat did he take off? Gnx.

Cole Kushner (85:56)

Oh, hey, now. Say now.

Charles Holmes (85:57)

Yeah, like, I like that type of Tyler. Just kind of like I'm stunting. Like, that's.

Cole Kushner (86:02)

We need a Tyler mixtape or something. That is just. That.

Charles Holmes (86:05)

That's. That is literally. If. Literally, if I'm being real before we get. I will just say I wish that Kendrick would just send Tyler all of.

Cole Kushner (86:18)

The G. Curate the executive produce.

Charles Holmes (86:20)

I just want Tyler rapping over all the. Over all of them.

Cole Kushner (86:24)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (86:24)

Just see what he does with him.

Cole Kushner (86:26)

Okay. So my bestie cut, I went with Igor's Theme.

Charles Holmes (86:35)

Oh.

Cole Kushner (86:42)

Which is a weird deep cut because it's the first song. But it's also, in terms of streams, it's not the most stream song off the album. And it's an instrumental song. It's a legitimate 3 minute and 20 second instrumental. And the reason why I picked it is to showcase Tyler as a singular producer, someone whose sound at this point in his career as is is very distinct. And I think Igor's theme, in a lot of ways showcases his production because it is instrumental. It shows his vision and able to craft a song that has that doesn't rely on your verse, chorus, verse, chorus structure. It has its own trajectory. It's more like a, you know, classical composition in terms of, like, the music itself needs to carry all the weight. You can't rely on melody in a way that you can just kind of toss to a hook and then have a contrasting verse. And when you really dissect what's going on in Igor's theme, it's like. I think it's a brilliant instrumental. And I love. I love the introduction to igor. Just the 30 seconds of the one synthesizer note, to me is, like, very iconic.

Charles Holmes (87:53)

Can I ask a really quick question? What is. Because I've done some reading, but I want to hear your breakdown of it. What is the narrative importance of Igor? Like, the literary importance of Igor as a name, as a character, in terms of this album?

Cole Kushner (88:11)

Yeah, I mean, it's. I think Kyler has tried to. I mean, he usually goes away from any type of literary reading and he always just is like. Like, it just looked cool.

Charles Holmes (88:20)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (88:21)

But Igor, to me, and I'm not. I don't think I'm alone in this, but it's like. It's a. It's a play on the horror archetype of the grotesque sidekick. Yeah, it's the. It's the hunchback serving the master, the mad scientist. And it's. And this plays into the theme of him being the third wheel in this relationship, being the sidekick obsessed with this master person that he loves and this person being indifferent about him and loving this one other thing, which, in case of the mad scientist analogy, he likes the science more than he likes the sidekick, but the sidekick is in love with the scientist. And so that's. That's the dynamic. And him. That, to me, like, the grotesqueness of the COVID plays into that too. Right. He looks kind of deliberately harsh on the COVID and he looks angular and grotesque, like he has the flat top. And so that was my reading of it, and I'm not alone in that reading, but Tyler just says he likes stuff to look cool, which, I don't know, artists try to under. Sometimes try to undermine, you know, their own vision. But Igor's theme's cool. Do you know the. The connection between the beginning and the middle or the. The start and the end of this album? Do you know this theory? It's one of my more popular theory, so if anyone's heard it so far. Sorry for the redundancy here, but. So Igor's theme starts with the iconic note, right? This, to me, my reading of this. It's interesting because this synthesizer is every single song on this album.

Charles Holmes (89:55)

Yeah.

Cole Kushner (89:56)

So one reason why this album sounds so cohesive is because Igor's theme, Igor, the character is represented by this instrument, that distorted synthesizer.

Charles Holmes (90:07)

And so that also reminds me. Does to your point about the Igor horror. Like, that synth reminds me very much of, like. It almost sounds like an organ, like in a cathedral. Very. Just gothic and operatic. Not ugly, but you know what I mean? It is.

Cole Kushner (90:24)

Yeah, it is ugly, I think, you know, quote, unquote. So the interesting thing is that the album also ends with the same instrument and it ends on a question. Are we still friends? So we go through the album, we go through all the emotions of rejection and unrequited love, and then he gets to a place of acceptance with gone, gone. And thank you thanking this person for the times that they had together. Track the penultimate song is I don't love you anymore. So releasing that love and then coming to the end, asking the question, are we still friends? And it's posed as a question throughout. That's the hook of the song. And so it ends on a literal question. And one thing I'll plant before I give you the breakdown. There's the skit by a draw. Carmichael. Exactly what you run from, you end up chasing. So just remember that when I lay out this next thing, which is that the album also ends with the same. Same synthesized instrument holding out a single note. Right. A little more deflated at the end of the story, but quick music theory. And every key signature, there's what's called a dominant and a tonic chord. Tonic chord is like the home chord. It's the chord. When you hear it, everything resolves and you feel at home. The tonic or the dominant is the chord of tension. And it's usually always played before the tonic because harmonically, there's tension in the ton or in the. The dominant, and it gets resolved technically by the tonic. And so when you realize that the last note of the album that we just heard on at the end of Are you still friends? Is the dominant of the intro, the tonic. So it creates a perfect loop loop when you loop the album. The last unresolved note of Are we still friends? Resolves with this introduction, introductory note. So it creates a perfect loop, which is interesting conceptually, because exactly what you run from, you end up chasing. So can this. Can he be friends with this guy? Or will he just fall in love with him again if he accepts him back into his life and start the loop over start, you know, have you ever had that person in your life that you can't be friends because there's always going to be feelings there. So it's like this enclosed loop that he's trapped in. Exactly. What you run from, you end up chasing. It's all embedded. Are you dissected? Did I sell you on that? Does it make sense?

Charles Holmes (92:59)

I have been dissected. I'm very impressed.

Cole Kushner (93:01)

It's very cool.

Charles Holmes (93:02)

That is. That is one of your better ones. That is fucking genius.

Cole Kushner (93:06)

It's genius on Tyler's part. He also liked the tweet when I first laid out this theory, so. So in my mind, that confirms the.

Charles Holmes (93:12)

Theory that was intentional. Oh, yeah.

Cole Kushner (93:14)

So.

Charles Holmes (93:14)

So what is. So what then is your biggest. Is your biggest moment?

Cole Kushner (93:19)

Biggest moment. Obviously not as iconic as Eminem's. Very many iconic moments. But you remember I played for you before this. His Grammy.

Charles Holmes (93:29)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (93:30)

Not only his Grammy speech when he run his first Grammy for rap album of the year with Igor, but also his performance. People remember he performed Earthquake. Kind of Charlie Wilson kind of takes over. It's acapella of Earthquake. And then it cuts to Tyler who performs New Magic Wand. And he does nod to Eminem directly. We'll put it up on the screen. He nods to the Slim Shady performance that we talked about, where 100 people were dressed up as Slim Shady. There's like 50 Igors all dressed up just like Tyler. And what I love about. About that performance and why I think it's iconic, I even started the season of. Of Igor with this moment, is because we think about Tyler being this singular artist, someone that hasn't compromised his sound to kind of sell out commercially, finally getting the acclaim that he's always desired. He's been pretty frank about, like, wanting to be kind of acknowledged by a Grammy, acknowledged by these higher things in a. For like. Like a Pharrell has. Has. And finally getting that. And not. And not performing Earthquake, not performing the hit, but doing his favorite song, putting on a blonde wig. There's houses on fire. Like, it's totally. That performance is totally. Tyler uncompromised. I love that he didn't compromise himself when he finally got the moment that he was looking for. We got a authentic representation of Tyler, the creator on a huge global stage. And I just. I. That's. I love when artists don't compromise in that way. Like, to me, that's. I love that he was just able to be himself and. And show the world who he is. Because if you look at the. Did you see the audience's reactions? They were Just like, what is going on? Which I absolutely love. Like, I absolutely love it.

Charles Holmes (95:39)

And to your point, I love the. I love the Grammy speech that he had after. Because he's not. Tyler's not the first artist, especially black artists artist to voice that, where it's like, if you're black, you're either rap or R B. And obviously Igor, he's not rapping on this album nearly at all, you know, and it's it. And I do get why it would irk him, where it's like, even when you finally get this thing that you've been coveting for so long, you are still trapped within the confines of a very, very, very racist, racist award. I have, like, honestly no respect for the Grammys. Just in terms of just like, if you look at the history of, like, who wins categories, all of that, you're just like, this is about a very, very specific vision for popular music. And that usually, usually black and brown artists, women, queer artists are not part of that picture. And I think it is. It is very impressive that even at this moment where Tyler's reached this pinnacle, he's still like, like. But nah, I gotta be honest.

Cole Kushner (96:46)

Right, Exactly.

Charles Holmes (96:46)

But that's always a thing.

Cole Kushner (96:47)

Exactly.

Charles Holmes (96:48)

Say whatever you will about Tyler. He's always been honest. Yeah, it sucks that whenever we. And I mean, guys that look like me do anything that's genre bending or that's anything, they always put it in a rapper urban category, which is. And I don't like that urban word. It's just a politically correct way to say the N words, me.

Cole Kushner (97:10)

All right, are you ready for the. The Head To Head? What's this is going to get?

Charles Holmes (97:14)

You think it's going to get us dicey?

Cole Kushner (97:16)

All right, so just to recap, we're going to now put Igor and Marshall Mathers LP head to head. Remember that the goal of this season is to crown the best album of the 21st century so far. Right now, Charles and I must decide whether Igor or Marshall Mathers LP advances to the season finale Royal Rumble. To do this, we're going to put the five categories that we talked about for each album going head to head. One point is going to be awarded for each category. Win most most total points wins. Justin is here to be our referee and scorekeeper. No, no longer than two minutes per category to debate them. Are we ready to start with the.

Charles Holmes (97:53)

Let's go.

Cole Kushner (97:54)

Biggest song versus biggest song. Oh, this is interesting because you love Earthquake so much.

Charles Holmes (97:58)

Yes.

Cole Kushner (97:59)

Earthquakes versus, like, Slim Shady.

Charles Holmes (98:02)

I would rather listen to Earthquakes just like my Normal Life in. In 2025. But it is undeniable that the real Slim Shady is way bigger.

Cole Kushner (98:12)

Is it okay, like, the category is technically biggest song biggest. So we're just gonna. Is it just an easy call then?

Charles Holmes (98:20)

It. I mean, what. Last time I checked, the real subsidiary is 7 times Platinum. How big is Earth?

Cole Kushner (98:26)

All right. Okay. I'm not.

Charles Holmes (98:28)

Oh, come on.

Cole Kushner (98:28)

Okay. I'm not gonna fight. You're right.

Charles Holmes (98:30)

Right.

Cole Kushner (98:30)

Obviously. Best song. It gets interesting. This is Kill you versus New Magic Wand. New Magic Wand clearly is the more interesting, more forward thinking, more singular. Kill you. I can name what, 20 songs that sound like that from Eminem. It's not unique in any way.

Charles Holmes (98:57)

Not doing this. We're not doing this again. Kill you is not only one of the best Eminem songs, it's some of the best rapping of the 21st century. Now, new Magic Wand is cool and it's cute, but it wouldn't even. Well, I'll put it to you this way. What genre. If you had to pick a genre, what genre would put New Magic Wand be in?

Cole Kushner (99:28)

This is the thing about Tyler, you. There's not a genre. R B, new Magic 1. No. Electro rap or.

Charles Holmes (99:39)

Exactly. Wait, what do you. Nothing. It's not. It wouldn't be in the top. R B, electro, rap, whatever. It's enough.

Cole Kushner (99:46)

You want to put it in a box that you're saying it's bad because you. It can't fit in a box.

Charles Holmes (99:50)

No, it's good because it can't fit in a box. The greatest songs of the 21st century. I could make an argument that Kill you would have to be in there somewhere. New Magic Wand would not be the Tyler record. It would not be. It's not.

Cole Kushner (100:05)

Neither would Kill you, though.

Charles Holmes (100:08)

Kill you would. At least if you were like, all right, Eminem songs that he's released in the 21st century, kill you would most likely be in the top 10. I can make you an argue is it is a top 10 Eminem record. I don't know if New Magic Wand is a top 10 Tyler record.

Cole Kushner (100:23)

It's like. It's.

Charles Holmes (100:25)

It's not even. It's not even the best. I was gonna say that year.

Cole Kushner (100:28)

No, it's. I think it's. I think it's. It's like, best song. If we did a last song standing on Tyler, New Magic. Oh, gosh.

Charles Holmes (100:36)

If we did a last song standing on Tyler, Earthquake would be the one that would win.

Cole Kushner (100:41)

No. What New Magic one has a case to be made. It would win the whole thing.

Charles Holmes (100:45)

Earthquake Is one of Tyler's only hits.

Cole Kushner (100:48)

Who cares about hits? Tyler's not a hit maker.

Charles Holmes (100:51)

So when he makes the hit, you have to honor it, right?

Cole Kushner (100:57)

I don't care about you.

Charles Holmes (100:58)

When you look at. When they're like, all right, Tyler. Whenever Tyler has his obituary, Right? If we stop today, the two songs that you would pick would be Yonkers.

Cole Kushner (101:10)

Such a basic earthquake. Basic ass take. So, Justin, referee a referee with the heavy Eminem biased. I'll say.

Charles Holmes (101:21)

What the, man.

C (101:23)

Yesterday I had a heavy Jay Z bias. Now I have a heavy Eminem bias. I actually have a very complicated history with Eminem.

Cole Kushner (101:29)

Okay.

C (101:30)

I want to be clear on that.

Cole Kushner (101:31)

All right.

C (101:32)

If we're actually going.

Charles Holmes (101:33)

No, we can't.

C (101:34)

We can't get into that. That's a whole episode on his own. Cole, I gotta be honest. I think you're kind of crazy on this one.

Charles Holmes (101:43)

Let's like. Is there any Justin picks play. Let's do the test. Play them both next to each other.

Cole Kushner (101:49)

Is there any song off of Igor that you would even say would come close to beating?

Charles Holmes (101:54)

Would be Earthquake. Can.

C (101:57)

Can I say that I actually think that Igor doesn't have any bad songs.

Charles Holmes (102:00)

Yeah, I would agree.

Cole Kushner (102:01)

Yeah. It's. It's the Lemonade. We're doing lemonade blueprint again where it's like the highs of Marshall Mather are very high, but there's way more low moments.

Charles Holmes (102:12)

Igor never gets as high as that.

Cole Kushner (102:14)

Might be true, except.

Charles Holmes (102:16)

So let's play both and just do a test.

Cole Kushner (102:26)

Just do nothing for you. Okay. And then let's go to the basic. Kill you.

Charles Holmes (102:31)

All right. All right. Don't add extra salt. It's really good, though.

Cole Kushner (102:39)

It's so good. It's good.

Charles Holmes (102:43)

Like, it's undeniable.

Cole Kushner (102:45)

It's really good.

Charles Holmes (102:47)

Justin, make the decision.

C (102:49)

I. I'm going to kill you 100 times out of 100 on this one.

Charles Holmes (102:52)

Finally, a real hip hop moment on this season. We like. Thank you.

Cole Kushner (102:56)

It's not the best hip hop song of the 21st century. It's the.

C (102:59)

Is it.

Cole Kushner (103:00)

It.

Charles Holmes (103:00)

It.

C (103:00)

Is it one of the best opening tracks on a rap record of the century.

Charles Holmes (103:05)

And also, you played a moment.

Cole Kushner (103:06)

That is a good point.

Charles Holmes (103:07)

You played the rare moment where Tyler is rapping on that album, and the rapping that Evan is doing is way.

Cole Kushner (103:14)

Better kind of rapping.

Charles Holmes (103:15)

I mean.

Cole Kushner (103:15)

All right.

Charles Holmes (103:15)

This is actually a category I think you will win.

Cole Kushner (103:17)

Worst song for sure.

Charles Holmes (103:19)

It's for sure.

Cole Kushner (103:19)

Remember, give me one. Yeah, give.

Charles Holmes (103:21)

That is. That is easy. It's definitely.

Cole Kushner (103:25)

Remember, one. One point on the board for Tyler, two for Eminem. Best deep cut.

Charles Holmes (103:31)

Easily. Who knew?

Cole Kushner (103:32)

Igor's theme versus who knew? Let's do the back to back. The back to back does help. Let's go. Who knew first? Okay. It sounds just like kill you, though, by the way.

Charles Holmes (103:45)

What are you. No, go to the verse now. Want me to watch my mouth? Take my eyeballs out and turn them around.

Cole Kushner (103:57)

It's really good. It's so good.

Charles Holmes (104:00)

I can see it on your.

Cole Kushner (104:02)

I know.

Charles Holmes (104:03)

Cole. Cole.

C (104:04)

Which song would Tyler pick?

Cole Kushner (104:06)

Yeah, I mean, this is true. Yeah. Igor's theme, though. Come on. After the breakdown.

Charles Holmes (104:17)

I love this breakdown.

Cole Kushner (104:18)

So ST. S. Okay. This part where. Higher, higher. Oh, so sick. It's. It's a hard. It's a hard back to back because they're just so.

Charles Holmes (104:36)

No, but to give you. It's going to have to be. Who knew? But Igor theme is sick. So sick. I love that. And the part that you were describing the Ascending, like, is so, so sick. And for best moment. We know it. It's dead.

Cole Kushner (104:52)

Yeah. Eminem just washed Igor.

Charles Holmes (104:57)

Finally.

Cole Kushner (104:58)

I feel like. I'm sorry, Tyler fans, I let you down, but I think this is the right car.

Charles Holmes (105:02)

I'll put it to you this way.

Cole Kushner (105:03)

Do you think Tyler. Do you think Tyler would choose Marshall Mathers over Igor?

Charles Holmes (105:06)

I think Tyler 100 out of 100, like, would literally be like, y' all are insane. Like, he'd probably be mad. He's like, why'd y' all pick Igor? Pick my rapping record, Like. But the thing that I think makes this. The thing that makes this exercise hard but also so fun is the fact that Igor is a record that I want to listen to more in 2025.

Cole Kushner (105:34)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (105:34)

I don't put on Marshall Mathers LP.

Cole Kushner (105:36)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (105:37)

Anymore, which is, like, it. I don't know if that's because I'm just aging. I don't know if that's also because, like. Like, to me, at this point, Tyler makes more accessible music. And I don't mean that from a pop context. I mean that from, like, how many days do I wake up wanting to hear fucking Eminem yell at me? Fucking hard. His life is like, you know what I'm saying? Versus, like, Tyler. I'm just like, hey, yo, I'll hear you talking about all the, you know, the straight boys that you're falling in love with who don't want to look at you, like, yeah, that sounds fucking interesting. Hell, yeah.

Cole Kushner (106:11)

All right. I'm kind of mad.

Charles Holmes (106:14)

Come on.

Cole Kushner (106:15)

Well, your first win of the season, though.

Charles Holmes (106:17)

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Should really be my second because last episode was stolen from me, but it's fine.

Cole Kushner (106:23)

Let's recap the list, though. So going into the season finale for the Royal Rumble, at the end, we're doing Twisted Fantasy, Kanye Lemonade, Beyonce, Marshall Mathers lp. That's a pretty good.

Charles Holmes (106:33)

I'm feeling really good about this, actually. When we think about the most important artists, but also projects of the 21st century, I could point to each of those hours where I'm like, you need a Kanye record. You need a Beyonce record. You need. You need an Eminem record. If we did this exercise in another 25 years, I'm sure Tyler's going to have an album like Igor in a Igor with more time. Also, this is the. I think this is going to end up being the album that's going to be the newest album that made our list. That's also the thing. Enough time hasn't passed for those songs to have really wormed their way into the public consciousness. Like Eminem is etched on Mount Rushmore.

Cole Kushner (107:18)

Right? Yeah. Should we tease next week? It's our first pivot away from the typical last song standing. Even dissect sphere of our genres, our typical taste.

Charles Holmes (107:31)

I don't even think we should tease it. I think because it's a pivot, maybe we, like, let them know.

Cole Kushner (107:36)

Oh. So they can listen.

Charles Holmes (107:37)

So they can, like, listen to them and, like, get a little bit more acquainted. Because these. I think this. Both of these might be the oldest albums that we've. We've picked outside of Marshall Mathers.

Cole Kushner (107:47)

Yeah. So I'm going with arguably my favorite album of all time. Do you know this about me? Radiohead's Kid A over to Pimp a Butterfly. It's. They're Neck and Neck Over Blonde. It's. Those three are my. Yeah.

Charles Holmes (108:03)

So I am picking one of the most important records of all time. This was my entry point into just, like, loving electronic music, as I think it was for many people. I'm going with Daft Punk's Discovery.

Cole Kushner (108:19)

Hell, yeah. That's gonna be Daft Punk versus Radiohead is.

Charles Holmes (108:22)

It's actually. This is what I'm excited about. That's why I want to kind of, like, give people some time to be like, yo, like, spend a week, put.

Cole Kushner (108:28)

Them both on, especially Discovery, prepping for the episode.

Charles Holmes (108:32)

I was driving around, I was like.

Cole Kushner (108:34)

That sounds so good. It's so good.

Charles Holmes (108:36)

Good. All right, as always. Yo, thank you. Thank you to everybody who makes this show possible. Thank you to Justin. Also, big shout out to Chris. Chris. People don't know. We've been rocking here back to back for three days, getting these. Getting these episodes together. And my man Chris has been, you know, on the boards, behind the boards. You want to say anything, Chris?

Cole Kushner (108:56)

No.

Charles Holmes (108:57)

No. You don't want him to say anything.

Cole Kushner (109:00)

He.

Charles Holmes (109:01)

Thank you to Justin Sales because, you.

C (109:03)

Know, I like saying stuff.

Charles Holmes (109:05)

Love saying stuff. And last, but certainly not least, Yo, Kevo. You know, he's not here. He's here over Zoom, but not in the room. But I always feel Kevo's presence whenever we do this.

Cole Kushner (109:15)

All right, I'll see you next week.

Charles Holmes (109:17)

See you next week, man. All right, it's time. Time for our favorite part of Last song Standing now. Last album standing, cultural exchange. The previous episode was Lord, you gave me Lord Melodrama. I gave you Future's Monster. And for this episode, I gave you.

Cole Kushner (109:47)

Usher's Confessions once again.

Charles Holmes (109:49)

And you gave me Solange's a seat at the table. Who should go first?

Cole Kushner (109:54)

Well, I'm interested to hear you because you're a little bit rough on Solange. I don't remember. Like, if you remember, last week, he kind of disregarded the album. So after returning to it, what'd you think?

Charles Holmes (110:05)

All right. It is rare that I will do this on a mic, but I'm not always right. I'm often an asshole and dismissive.

Cole Kushner (110:16)

Yes.

Charles Holmes (110:17)

In ways that, you know, add to the lore of my work here. My. What would you call? We don't have a Work for your. Like, there's filmography. This. Discography.

Cole Kushner (110:27)

Podography.

Charles Holmes (110:28)

Podography, you know? Yeah. I was wrong. I was right. This is a beautiful album. This is a perfect album.

Cole Kushner (110:34)

I thought you would like this. Like, it was surprising that you. Your initial.

Charles Holmes (110:37)

I actually want to know what I realized. Not only do I love this album, I played this album so much when I was in New York that when I put it back on, like, you want to know when it all crystallized for me, how much, like, I feel fell into my, like, chair? And I was like, this is perfect. It's the Lil Wayne song.

Cole Kushner (110:58)

Oh, yeah, man.

Charles Holmes (110:59)

Yeah, it just.

Cole Kushner (111:00)

That's really good. Is it great? You talk about. Solange is an auteur herself.

Charles Holmes (111:04)

Great producer. Great.

Cole Kushner (111:05)

Just visionary. Putting the whole thing, the visuals, everything.

Charles Holmes (111:09)

Visuals for this album. I remember just like, yeah, Clear Point.

Cole Kushner (111:13)

The. She uses Lil Wayne perfectly. We've never heard Wayne in that context.

Charles Holmes (111:17)

I. I remember feeling this way when I listened to it. I remember feeling this way now, where I was like, I wish Lil Wayne, the back half of his career was this song. Was more like this moment. And I'm not talking about, like, I'm talking more about, like, Wayne. To me, Wayne and Eminem are kind of similar in that way where, like, they crystallize in amber at the time that they popped off.

Cole Kushner (111:44)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (111:45)

Like mixtape, Wayne the Amilly, the. The ringtone. Rap, like, not ringtone. The punch lines. All of that. Similar to Eminem where it's like, this was a song where Solange is like, pulled something out. You're pulling something out. That's always been there in Wayne, but as he's gotten more famous, has retreated. Cranes in the sky is a perfect song. We're doing like a last song standing for the 21st century 100. Like, this would be top 10.

Cole Kushner (112:12)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (112:12)

Like, it might be top five. But I went back, I was like, oh. Like, this is one of the. The most beautiful. Or Nate just levels to this. Like, thank you for making me listen to like, I really fell in love with this album. This was great. Like, actually listening to this, I was like, it's going to be, in my opinion, hard to beat this record. In terms of the one that I'm going to pick to take into the finale. Into the finale.

Cole Kushner (112:42)

There is a. There's a strong case that we should have put it as a proper album in the.

Charles Holmes (112:46)

Yes. I think you want to know where. I think that this album, the reason maybe why we did not pick it is that yesterday we were talking about two artists that, like, we made a late stage decision where I was just like, it was hard for me to envision this project without picking those two artists. So I was just like, solanged. Close, right? Not there.

Cole Kushner (113:13)

Yeah.

Charles Holmes (113:13)

Now Usher's Confessions.

Cole Kushner (113:16)

Okay.

Charles Holmes (113:17)

Second time.

Cole Kushner (113:18)

Second time through. It's. It's really. I remember giving it positive reviews last time when you assigned it to me, and my thoughts had really haven't changed. It's like when I put it on, it's something that I would just never, ever, ever put on myself.

Charles Holmes (113:32)

Just what do you have against soul and dancing?

Cole Kushner (113:38)

But when I hear it.

Charles Holmes (113:39)

Something in your gut.

Cole Kushner (113:40)

But when I hear it, like, when I hear a song which. What's the song that I texted you? I was like, this one's. Oh, it's caught up. When I hear Caught Up.

Charles Holmes (113:50)

I'm losing control. This girl's got a hold on me. I love Caught Up.

Cole Kushner (113:58)

The run of Confessions part two, Burn and Caught up is like.

Charles Holmes (114:02)

It's the objectively good three best run. Like the three song run of just like, oh, this Put his foot through that, bro. Let it Burn what?

Cole Kushner (114:13)

I have a hard time reconciling. Okay. And also, let me just. I said it last time. Let me just say. Yeah is one of the. My most despised songs.

Charles Holmes (114:20)

Why?

Cole Kushner (114:21)

Whatever. I. I mean, the little.

Charles Holmes (114:24)

The.

Cole Kushner (114:24)

The synth, the little. Little John. Annoying sample. Something about that song rubbed me in a way that I just. I never want to hear that song again. But I mostly. I mostly want to hear your take on why this. I get why you like it personally, but why do you think it deserves a spot in the Royal Rumble as a representative album of the 21st century? Seriously, do you think it could be that or should be that? Or is it more just like, this is my personal favorite?

Charles Holmes (114:53)

No. If this was like my own personal exercise, this would be a. Like, this would be top five. This would be. Actually, I think this is undoubtedly, undoubtedly one of the greatest albums of the 21st century. I think the reason that I paired it with our episode and I gave it to you after Lemonade is because to me, Lemonade, it's. It's of that same lineage where an artist takes some. Takes an event and just blows it up on a massive scale. When you think about that moment in terms of like, how many songs, hit songs that's produced, this is one of the best selling albums of all time. I would argue that we never kind of got back to this moment in R B again where this was the close of an era where it's like, if Michael Jackson is the peak of turning a black art form into something with mass appeal, Usher is the last. Like is. Is of that lineage, and he's the last artist who could get there. To me, when I think of, like, albums that are important just in art, you cannot tell the story of the 21st century and black art without confessions. And what that meant, like, confessions burn caught up my boo. This entire era, Usher. And I think. I think I also picked this album because it was what I was telling you about, Lemonade. I think for a lot of folks, black artists, especially when it's about. When it's R B, when it's about sex, when it's about black love, critically, we tend to undermine that. But when a rock star does it, you know, or when a country star. Well, this is important. Why? Because we have more context in the United States for white love. Because movies, TV or whatever were still breaking records. Where it's like, this is the first black artist to do this at the grant. This is the first black artist to do like. Beyonce's still trying to get the respect she deserves at the Grammys. And I think for Usher's Confessions, if you look at it through a certain point, like, what this album means to people, like, in the same way that people talk about, like, Fleetwood Max Rumors is the same way I feel about Usher's Confession.

Cole Kushner (117:06)

Oh, really?

Charles Holmes (117:06)

But, like, why do. Why does Fleetwood Mac get it? Well, yeah, and Usher doesn't. Where it's like, that Fleetwood Mac album is incredible. Cool. It's incredible. But it's also. It's doing the same thing. It's doing the same, like, front page, headline news. We are making music about our life and gossip and turning it into the greatest thing. Usher's doing the same thing, but because he's a dancer and an entertainer and he's doing the. The change and he's a performer, we just. Just rock criticism dings you in the same way that they dinged Beyonce. So that is my biggest spiel on why I think Confessions is important.

Cole Kushner (117:48)

That's a great case. You made a great case for it. Hard. Hard to deny. All right, so what's next for. What are you giving me next week?

Charles Holmes (117:57)

So. Because Kid A is one of your most. Is a seminal rock record for you. A seminal rock record for me. And I think I've already given this to you before, but I. When we were talking about this season, they almost made the list. Strokes. Is this it? This was. I was living in New Jersey at the time. Obviously, this is coming in the shadow of everything that was happening with 911 and everything. And this was a record that got back to me, and this was part of that. This era in rock. I know a lot of people, like, turn their nose up at the Strokes and LCD sound system. Yeah, yeah. Yes. But this was my. This is when I fell in love with rock music. I love this record.

Cole Kushner (118:40)

Okay, then let me pivot then, because I was gonna. I'll save the one I was gonna give you today. I'll match your rock album with. Are you a fan of the Killers? The Killers in this same era.

Charles Holmes (118:54)

Different.

Cole Kushner (118:54)

Different stylistically.

Charles Holmes (118:56)

Conversation about how their debut. The first half of this great, great is the most undeniable music ever.

Cole Kushner (119:05)

The back half's rough.

Charles Holmes (119:07)

Are you giving me that album? Hot Fuss.

Cole Kushner (119:08)

I see. Sam's Town. This is Sam's Town to me, is a more complete project from start to finish. But the highs are not as high as Hot Fuss.

Charles Holmes (119:16)

Please give me Hot Fuss. I think we need to discuss how.

Cole Kushner (119:18)

All right, let's do Hot fuss. Cuz culturally, 21st century. That's the album.

Charles Holmes (119:22)

That's the album.

Cole Kushner (119:23)

Yeah. Let's do that. Okay.

Charles Holmes (119:24)

I'm so excited. Hell, yeah.