good kid, m.A.A.d. city vs. To Pimp A Butterfly | LAST SONG STANDING [E7]

Summary

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Dissect: “good kid, m.A.A.d. city vs. To Pimp A Butterfly”

Podcast: Dissect (The Ringer)
Episode: LAST SONG STANDING | E7
Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Cole Cuchna
Guest Co-host: Charles Holmes

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Overview

In the penultimate episode of Last Song Standing’s fourth season, hosts Cole Cuchna and Charles Holmes take on the most anticipated matchup yet: Kendrick Lamar’s good kid, m.A.A.d. city versus To Pimp a Butterfly. For the first and only time this season, both competing albums are by the same artist—a rule-break inspired by Kendrick’s unprecedented impact on 21st-century music. The hosts break down each record’s musicality, historical significance, and cultural legacy, then debate which deserves to advance to the season’s “Royal Rumble” finale.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting Up the Showdown

• [00:07-1:26] Structure: Each episode features head-to-head album debates, with winners moving on to a “Royal Rumble” finale to crown the greatest album of the 21st century.
• [02:01-2:23] Rule-breaking: For the first time, both nominated albums are by Kendrick Lamar, “the most important artist… of the 21st century so far.”
• [02:23-04:35] Both hosts argue Kendrick has become the defining voice for modern hip-hop, even superseding contemporaries like Kanye and Drake.

“If I had to point to one rapper that is…the closest to becoming like a Jay Z figure? I would actually point to Kendrick.” — Charles (03:58)

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Kendrick’s Place in the 21st Century

• [04:35-06:49] Reverence for tradition meets innovation: Kendrick synthesizes hip-hop history while pushing conceptual/sonic boundaries.
• [06:49-08:56] The rarity and impact of Kendrick’s release cycles and anti-microwaving ethos: He resists industry pressure to constantly drop music, instead prioritizing original, slow-cooked work.
• [08:56-09:13] Art vs. commercial trends: “It does feel like the art gets undermined…and it makes me so happy that Kendrick Lamar came out on top.” — Cole

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Debating The Albums

Album Significance & Enduring Legacy

• good kid, m.A.A.d. city [10:30-18:33]

  • Released Oct 22, 2012. Features on the album: J. Rock, Drake, MC Eiht, Dr. Dre, and others.
  • Debuted at #2, has gone 3x Platinum, and stayed on Billboard 200 for years.
  • Critically acclaimed, although famously snubbed at the Grammys.

• To Pimp a Butterfly [63:13-66:55]

  • Released March 15, 2015. Debuted at #1, 11 Grammy nominations (most since Michael Jackson’s Thriller), enshrined in the Library of Congress, and ranked #19 on Rolling Stone’s 500 Greatest Albums.
  • Boldly political, sonically experimental jazz/funk/rap fusion. Not the expected “sequel” to GKMC—instead, a radical reinvention.

Thematic Weight

• [68:40-70:05] TPAB positioned as “an America album,” making visible the “rotten foundation” beneath the surface of the American Dream, particularly amid the Obama era’s allegedly “post-racial” narrative.
• [68:41] “Most artists, their second album is the ‘I saw the world, the fame album.’ This is Kendrick being like, I saw the world, I fulfilled the American dream…and now I’m seeing the rotten foundation.” — Charles

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Category Showdowns

1. Biggest Song

• GKMC: “Money Trees”
  Key Points:

  • Not a single, but a massive streaming favorite and fan anthem (“1.9 billion streams on Spotify,” [23:21–24:00]).
  • Praised for its narrative integration, J. Rock’s standout feature, and longevity.
  • “The most enduring song…because it’s not trying to be a hit.” — Charles ([25:04])

• TPAB: “Alright”
  Key Points:

  • Unplanned single turned protest anthem, soundtracking Black Lives Matter rallies and protests ([79:08–80:09]).
  • “If you had to pick one song… it has to be ‘Alright’… through the lens of ‘Alright’ is how you talk about this album.” - Cole ([79:08])
  • Refrain “We gon’ be alright” encapsulates both personal and communal resilience.

2. Best Song

• GKMC: “m.A.A.d. City”
  Key Points:

  • Universally hyped centerpiece, live staple, and a microcosm of Kendrick’s artistry.
  • “It distills everything that Kendrick is—from narrative, to honoring West Coast hip-hop, to pushing it forward.” — Charles ([31:36–32:44])

• TPAB: “Wesley’s Theory”
  Key Points:

  • Academic-level complex album opener, mixing jazz, funk, and hip-hop while setting the album’s conceptual agenda.
  • “If ‘Wesley’s Theory’ doesn’t work, the rest of the album doesn’t work. It’s a thesis statement in the truest sense.” — Charles ([91:29–93:26])
  • Praised for its audacious non-conformity and boldness at the outset.

3. Worst Song

• GKMC: “Compton”
  Key Points:

  • Not a bad song (“He’s rapping his ass off”), just doesn’t fit the album’s emotional climax, feels “a little too tidy,” or “the cheesy song they play over end credits.” ([40:52–42:20])

• TPAB: “You Ain’t Gotta Lie (Momma Said)”
  Key Points:

  • Not outright disliked, but comparatively less compelling in production and energy.
  • “Probably my least favorite beat…if we’re forced to choose, this is the one I’d choose.” — Cole ([96:07])
  • The hosts resist calling out “Complexion” despite critiquing it, deferring to the importance of its message.

4. Best Deep Cut

• GKMC: “Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst”
  Key Points:

  • Cited as Kendrick’s “storytelling magnum opus”; sparse, raw, and emotionally devastating.
  • “Every time I listen to it, I nearly cry.” — Charles ([43:09–45:37])
  • “If we’re just, in a vacuum, what’s the Kendrick Lamar song… this is the man—it is ‘Sing About Me.’” — Charles ([51:41])

• TPAB: “Hood Politics”
  Key Points:

  • Praised for energy, wit, and political subtext as “deep cut essence.”
  • “It’s just that classic, slumpy beat…classic Kendrick…aggression, and still staying on message.” ([102:57])
  • Excellent implicit critique of American party politics.

5. Best Cultural/Live Moment

• GKMC: Macklemore’s infamous Grammy “robbery” text ([55:56–58:07])

  • Symbolized the broader struggle for artistic recognition against institutional biases.

  “We didn’t need the Grammys to tell us this was great. Real people knew.” — Charles ([58:07])

• TPAB: The “All Right” era of live performances ([105:03–109:24])

  • BET, Grammys, and late-night runs transformed Kendrick into an icon beyond the music.
  • “That was the moment Kendrick Lamar was born, in terms of how we think of him today.” — Cole ([106:49])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On making music outlast the churn:
  “Kendrick has proven that not only does good music last, but taking your time…if you slow down and really concentrate on what’s important, when shit sifts, you’re going to win.” — Charles ([08:56])

• On album structure brilliance:
  “He creates a concept record that stays true to the concept with every single song…yet he’s making hit singles.” — Cole ([27:42])

• On “Sing About Me”:
  “If any other rapper was on it, I actually…think it would have thematically taken away from it.” — Charles ([20:07])

• On the “alright” vs. “Money Trees” category face-off:
  “If you’re a mom in Middle America, you’ve heard ‘We gon’ be all right.’ To me, it’s about impact and importance.” — Charles ([111:05])

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Album Trivia Highlights

GKMC:

• The planned feature for “Sing About Me” was Nas, but cleared samples and deadlines got in the way. ([19:06])
• “Money Trees” would be 7x Platinum if Kendrick registered all certifications (he notoriously doesn't). ([23:04-24:00])
• “Compton” was the first song recorded for album, written when Kendrick first entered the studio with Dr. Dre. ([21:38-21:39])

TPAB:

• The original album title was “Tu Pimp a Caterpillar” (TUPAC)—Kendrick settled on To Pimp a Butterfly, partly inspired by Anna Wise’s reading of “Conversations With a Butterfly”. ([70:27–71:16])
• Assassin’s feature on “The Blacker the Berry” happened because of a call from Canadian rapper Kardinal Offishall. ([72:13])
• “You” continues the personal narrative of Jason Keaton, also mentioned on “Uncle Bobby & Jason Keaton” from Kendrick’s EP. ([73:49])

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Head-to-Head: Category Results

| Category | GKMC Winner | TPAB Winner | Consensus Winner | |------------------|-----------------------|---------------------|-----------------------| | Biggest Song | Money Trees | Alright | Alright | | Best Song | m.A.A.d. city | Wesley’s Theory | m.A.A.d. city | | Worst Song | Compton | You Ain’t Gotta Lie | You Ain’t Gotta Lie | | Deep Cut | Sing About Me... | Hood Politics | Sing About Me... | | Cultural Moment | Macklemore Grammy text | “Alright” anthems | Alright performances |

Final Tally:
Technically, by categories, good kid, m.A.A.d. city takes 3 out of 5. But both hosts pivot the debate to legacy and cultural impact.

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The Judgment: Which Is the “More Important” Album?

• “good kid, m.A.A.d. city” is the better-crafted “rap album” and a perfect narrative record—smoother, more concise, but (by design) more intimate and less culturally expansive.
• “To Pimp a Butterfly” is the more ambitious, challenging, and resonant document. It’s the album that tells the story of the century and delivers not only musical heights but also a crystallizing portrait of America, blackness, politics, and art.

“If we’re trying to pick the best albums and the most important and influential and telling the story of the 21st century, I know I would pick To Pimp a Butterfly.” — Charles ([120:56])

“It is the story of the 21st century.” — Cole ([121:29])

Both agree:

• TPAB is the most essential album for this exercise—the one that best tells the story of the century—even though GKMC might be the perfect hip-hop record.

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Final Reflections

• The hosts reflect on how time and personal growth have changed their relationship with both albums.
• They draw parallels to other “defining” albums of the season: Lemonade, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, Blonde.
• They finalize cultural exchange picks for the finale: The Strokes’ Is This It and Solange’s A Seat at the Table.

“I returned to a lot of albums that were the foundation for why I became a music critic... what ‘To Pimp a Butterfly’ meant to me then, what it means to me now—it's changed. As Kendrick has matured, I've matured.” — Charles ([124:28])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kendrick’s Ascendancy & Why the Double-Nom: [02:01–09:13]
• GKMC Album Facts & Trivia: [16:20–18:33], [17:58–21:39]
• Category Battle—GKMC Best Song (“m.A.A.d. city”): [29:50–36:10]
• GKMC Deep Cut (“Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst”): [43:09–51:41]
• Macklemore Grammy Text / Cultural Response: [55:56–58:07]
• To Pimp A Butterfly Facts & Context: [63:13–66:55]
• TPAB Thematic Discussion (Obama Era, Black Music, Protest): [68:40–70:05]
• Category Battle—TPAB Best Song (“Wesley’s Theory”): [91:25–95:18]
• Category Battle—TPAB Deep Cut (“Hood Politics”): [101:01–104:57]
• The “Alright” Phenomenon & Political Aftermath: [79:08–89:39]
• Final Head-to-Head Debate and Conclusion: [109:24–123:50]

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Summary Conclusion

The debate between good kid, m.A.A.d. city and To Pimp a Butterfly is not about technical perfection but about the soul, ambition, and resonance of an album in the 21st century. The hosts crown To Pimp a Butterfly as the most important, influential document—one that not only reflected but helped shape the era. It left their “greatest album of the 21st century” finale stacked with modern classics and the heady sense that Kendrick’s influence will echo for decades to come.

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Memorable Final Quote:

“If we’re just…in a vacuum, what’s the Kendrick Lamar song where you’re like, ‘this is the man, the artist, the thinker’? It is ‘Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst.’ If you take that away, none of this is here.” — Charles ([51:41])

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome, everyone, to Last Long Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.

[A]

And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fourth season of Last Song Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through some of the best albums of the last 25 years in order to crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the Last Album Standing.

[B]

Last episode, SZA's control went against Frank Ocean's Blonde. Ultimately, Frank Ocean's Blonde came out on top.

[A]

But on today's episode, we've got two more classic albums going head to head. But first, Cole, let's go over all of the albums that we've picked so far. We have Kanye's My Beautiful Dark, Twisted Fantasy, Beyonce's Lemonade, Eminem's Marshall Mathers lp, Daft Punk's Discovery Doom, and Mad Lib's Mad Villainy, Frank Ocean's Blonde. Now, with all of that out of the way, this is the episode that people have been waiting for. So before we reveal the albums, let's just really, really quick set up the premise, set up the rules, set up the structure.

[B]

All right? So remember, every episode, Charles and I each nominate one album we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode where we'll make a case for why it's one of the best albums of the past 25 years. Then, at the end of the episode, the two albums go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winner.

[A]

And the winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album standing. And now, Cole, without further ado, can you please tell the people what two albums are duking it out?

[B]

Today, I am picking. We kind of broke our rules. We alluded to it last episode. We should also say up top. This is the penultimate episode. It's the last episode before the grand finale, Royal Rumble. And there's been one artist we have been avoiding.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

One we have been saving for the end. Arguably the most important artist, I would say, of the 21st century so far. And because of its importance, we are breaking our rules. We are going to do two albums by the same artist, Kendrick Lamar. I'm going to be going at bat for, aside from Kid A, probably my favorite album of all time, into Pimpa Butterfly.

[A]

And I'm going with Kendrick's debut, Good Kid Mad City. I'm fucked up, homie, you fucked up but if God got us then we gonna be alright nigga, we gonna be all that you will sing about me Promise that you will sing about me I said when the light shut off where you and I was walking Now I run a game got the whole world talking King Coolty everybody wanna cut the legs off them cooter this morning, when I was thinking about it, when I was thinking about what artists, what artists could lay claim to defining the 21st century so far, I actually thought that instead of Kendrick Lamar being the artist that has defined this part, or at least this first. This first half or 25 years, I was like, would it be more apt to say he's the artist that I would put my money on to define the next 25 years? And what I mean by that is I think you could debate that, like, artists such as Kanye, Drake, Taylor, commercially were definitely the dominant forces and critically, artistically. And part of me thinks that it's interesting that Kendrick won in terms of, like, when I talk about winning, where it's like, in the beginning of his ascent, he was competing with guys like Drake and Wiz Khalifa and J. Cole. He was never the artist that was selling the most. Maybe he was the most critically acclaimed. And I think that everything that's happened last year, not like us, gnx, Super Bowl, Super Bowl. To me, if I had to point to one rapper that is like, oh, who is the guy who is the closest to becoming like a Jay Z figure? I would actually point to Kendrick and his. Basically everything he's done since OD section 80. Now to GNX is like us being like, okay, how everything shook out. It's not Drake anymore. It's not Kanye, it's Kendrick.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, to me, Kanye. Kanye was above Kendrick before last year, before gnx, before the battle, before Super Bowl. But I think last year and its totality and the stadium tour is. It propelled him into a whole other echelon. And it, to me, it. It took him to that top spot where he is side by side with a Kanye. And yeah, I think your point in terms of him defining the next 25 years is. Is a good one because when we look back at, like a Jay Z, he kind of bridged the centuries. You know, he's kind of one foot in 20th century and another in into the 21st. Right. And I think why, like, why I'm so glad Kendrick came out on top of. Because he. I think one, he's traditional in terms of, like, he obviously has incredible reverence for the history of hip hop. And he. I think he synthesizes the history of hip hop more than a Drake, more than a J. Cole of his class. I think he's. He is the most. He comes from Compton, and he embodies so much of the tradition of hip hop. At the same time, he's able to push the genre in new territory conceptually, sonically. He's. He has been at the forefront of pushing the genre forward and progressing it. So he's not just an archetype of the past. He is also contributing to its evolution, which I think is very important. And if we're talking about hip hop being the most important genre and consequential genre of this century, I think Kendrick Lamar, musically is that. And I think when we talk about his concepts, what each album says, you know, we talked about this earlier in the season about, you know, when Kendrick Lamar drops an album, when Beyonce drops the album. These are artists now we are looking for. What. Not only is the music good, what do they have to say? Yeah, and. And I think very few artists get to that level, especially where he's able to do these say things. And same with Beyonce. Say they have something to say, but they also perform commercially like gang Masters, you know, so it's like they're able to balance both things. Commercial artistry. And I think he is the perfect representative for the 21st century so far.

[A]

And I also will say this to me, Kendrick resisted the gravitational pull of what the music industry had become, where I think for so many years, artists like Drake and Taylor and eventually Kanye were playing a game where it's like, with streaming, obviously we're owned by Spotify, but with the boom of streaming in the streaming era, it incentivized artists dropping so much music, Albums after albums after albums, singles, singles, years after years. And to me, a lot of times, I think the knock against Kendrick would be that he could disappear. Like, there was such a huge gap between something like dark and Mr. Morale. And there was a feeling where it's just like, yo, like, is Kendrick not like, he was always serious about music, but can he be serious about being the best? If you're disappearing with years on end, people are getting on his artist, his family member, Baby Keem for being like, why is there such a stretch? But what I think I want to reward is that, to me, art always snaps back to the core, where it's just like this year, we've seen it in Hollywood, where people want to see movies like sinners. They want to see original movies like Weapons. When Nolan comes out with an original film, it's a thing like, I'm on the Midnight Boys. Pew, pew. And we talk about a lot of IP and whatever, but the heart, to me of a lot of art is original storytelling, original vision, and not being microwavable dropping every single year. And I think Kendrick has proven. And this is why I'm saying he's an artist that's going to define probably the next 25 years, is that he proves that not only does good music last, but taking your time with the music. Not tracing trends, not chasing the charts, not. You know, he gave us Mr. Morale and then he gave us GNX. He's like, with every single album, just like, oh, he's showing this. That like, yo, we can slow down with the art. If you slow down with. With. If you slow down and you really concentrate on what's important, when shit sifts, you're going to win.

[B]

And that's. I mean, that's something I really, you know, I'm really passionate about the importance of art. And, you know, these days, it does. To your point, it does feel like the art gets undermined. And it makes me so happy that Kendrick Lamar came out on top.

[A]

Yeah. So what I want to ask before we get to, you know, album facts and trivia, is why do we break our rule?

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Times vary. Fees may apply.

[A]

Because for the entire season, we were kind of just like. The only album that we think could probably make sense and go toe to toe is something like Frank Ocean's Blonde.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you were just. And then. But as I was thinking about this exercise, you were just like, well, what if we do Good Kid Mad City? And part of me was like, what's interesting about this is, I think Walt Pimpa Butterfly, both of these are equally critically acclaimed. I think To Pimp A Butterfly has gone on to define Kendrick in a lot of ways in terms of, like, that's what people point to as, like, the one album that they're like, that's the best thing he ever did. And I'm going to be honest, Good Kid Mad City, though, to me, I wouldn't be surprised if it won out. Not won out, but in the long term, we start respecting it a little bit more. Because I like both of these albums, but, like, when I went back to Good Kid Mad City, I was just like, oh, with some distance, this has just as much of a chance to make it to the Fed. To me, I think.

[B]

No, I think so too. And I think. I think we are starting to get far enough removed from the Drop to have that bit of history to look back, because I think Good Kid is starting to get that reverence where I think we're going to talk about to Pipe A Butterfly. So much of that album, in retrospect, to me is like, was. Was Good Kid showed incredible promise. And when an artist lives up, not only lives up, but exceeds the promise that they show, we usually that it's like when they fulfill that, it. It kind of adds even more weight to this phenomenal album. Was like, we thought he was the guy and he's the fucking guy. And he's actually more of the guy than we actually originally anticipated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think in the moment, we are so enamored with Tippimpa Butterfly because he fulfilled that promise in a way that we would have never expected with the fusion aspect of it, the live performances that accompany the iconic ones at the Grammys, which we'll talk about and. But it almost overshadowed how Good Good Kid Mad City was. And I think even me being the biggest. To Pippa Butterfly fan, I would say second to Only Kid A is probably my favorite album of all time. Even I'm like, wow, could Good Kid Bad City, to me, is right there with To Pippen Butterfly, where I don't think it's an obvious do you think.

[A]

That the release of Mr. Morale also muddied the waters. And what I mean by that is, to me, you can separate his catalog now, like, within every other type approach. When I look at Good Kid, Mad City, I look at Dam, and now I look at gnx, I am just like, what he's doing on all those albums. All of those albums, to me, fit more neatly in a, like, pop rap structure. And what I mean by that is, like, albums with. With easily defined singles, different flavors that you can point to, like, albums or different motifs that you're just like, okay, this reminds me of the biggest albums from XYZ artist career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then with something like to Pemba butterfly, Mr. Morale, not to make it such a simple distinction, but I'm like, these are more. These are difficult albums. And what I mean, difficult where it's like, what they are trying to achieve thematically, what they are trying to achieve musically, how different they are, how much influence is on it, how much you can tell in the sequencing and the structure and the production of it that this was like, he's reaching for, like, a magnum opus type thing. I feel like there's people now who are like, maybe Mr. Morale does that better than To Pimp A Butterfly. I don't know if I believe that. But I look at both of those albums where I'm like, oh, what he's reaching for and trying to achieve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is like, part of the allure of those albums is the ambition. You know what I mean? Does that make any sense?

[B]

No, it does. Yeah. And I think. Yeah. In terms of approach, it seems like To Be A Butterfly is a singular vision. It has singles, but they weren't, you know, they don't sound like he was reaching for a number one hit.

[A]

All right. Doesn't sound like he was reaching for a single, even though it became such a monumental song.

[B]

Same with Mr. Morale. There's not. Not really a big song off of Mr. Morale in terms of, like, there's. There's kind of classics, there's fan favorites, but N95 was the single, and that's not like. Not Even the top 10 of his, you know, biggest singles. So. No, I get it. And I think why I like the exercise of putting To Pimp A Butterfly in Good Kid is that we can debate or just even just have the conversation of, like, yeah, how do we weigh these things in a conversation of, like, should a representative album of the 21st century have commercial smashes on it? You know, should we be trying to bridge that line a little bit? Or should we reward the high concept, the statement album, the singular vision, you know, and a little bit more politically charged than a Good Kid Mad City. Although I think equally the thing that you've been bringing up all season is like where Tabimba Butterfly might be more explicit in its political or racial messaging. Good Kid Mad City also has all that stuff a little bit, a little bit more implicitly in terms of like he's not stating it overtly. There's not a picture of the White House on the COVID of Good Kid Mad City like to pimp a Butterfly. But all those same themes are implicit in his story.

[A]

Sing About Me I'm Dying of Thirst is a political record, even if it's not right stated. You have to. Yeah, you're telling a history of America through the history of Kendrick Lamar and his friends. And that's what I'm really excited in this conversation to be like, okay, when we start talking about the politics of the Topeba Butterfly, can we also talk about Good Kid Mad City as we wait them? But with all that being said, should we get into Good Kid Mad City first?

[B]

Do it.

[A]

Kendrick Lamar's debut album, Good Kid Mad City, released on October 22, 2012. The 12 song project features J Rock, Drake, MC8, Analyse, Dr. Dre, production from Soundwave, DJ Dahi, Hit Boy Pharrell among others. Five singles the Recipe, Swimming Pools, Backseat Freestyle, Poetic Justice, Don't Kill My Vibe. It debuted at number two on the Billboard 200, selling 242,000 copies in its first week. Selling since then gone triple platinum at the 56 Grammy Awards, Kendrick was nominated for seven, including best new Artist album of the Year and best Rap Album. But took home nothing was just like, it was actually like I was in the moment. I watched those Grammys and still I was just like. Like Kendrick Hatch. I've had like one on the board and I was just like oh no, no, I forgot. And then since it's released, it has become one of the most critically acclaimed.

[B]

Albums still on the Billboard 200 chart.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was one. I think it was the first hip hop album to. I forget how many weeks it had been on the Billboard, like kind of like SZ's control. It just has never left. I think just this year was the first time it left the the Billboard 200 potentially for a week.

[B]

Good Kid Mad City.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh really? I didn't hear that.

[A]

I might, I might be wrong. But yes, it has been since its been out. It has endured. So with that being said, I'm not gonna lie, y'. All. I'm very afraid for this album trivia because we have been podcasting a lot. I've been podcasting a lot. I did not prep for this because I just know this album a lot.

[B]

All right. Yeah. So let's get into the album trivia. It's the final album trivia of the season. So let's just go over the rules and then we're gonna go over the final score going into today's episode because today's episode is going to determine the winner of the trivia. So just a reminder that this is where Charles and I attempt to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Each correct answer is one point and whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize that will be revealed by Justin in our next episode season finale. Very much looking forward to that reveal. The current score is five points for me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Four points for you. A historic comeback. Some will say it was very. I was at zero points on the board and since we've been recording, these.

[A]

Motherfuckers took me to San Diego. I've been in the Poconos. I'm tired. Like, this ain't been my best trivia wise, but hopefully I bounce back today.

[B]

Okay, so question number one. Which artist did Kendrick originally want as a guest feature on the song Sing About Me, I'm dying of thirsty.

[A]

I don't. Because I know all I know so many of the other songs in terms of, like, who was supposed to be on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sing About Me, I'm dying of thirst. Give me a hint.

[B]

One of the greatest rappers of all time. For a half point reduction.

[A]

For a half point reduction. Greatest.

[B]

And any hint now is going to be half point rejection. So you could earn a half point.

[A]

Oh, well, J. Well, Hove was on. Was on the Bitch Don't Kill my Vibe remix, so I don't think it's him. So Nas?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I knew, like, I knew if it was not hov, it gotta be Nas.

[B]

Yep. Charles. Half point. It was Nas. He said he wanted. He told Vibe magazine that, quote, he never really got a chance to reach out to Nas because he was so wrapped up finishing the album, getting the music done, samples cleared, mastered, all that. And the deadline just came too fast. But obviously for good reason. That song's a classic. It's perfect. But I can see why. I can see him. I can see Nas doing well on that song.

[A]

I'm glad they kept Nas.

[B]

But it's also like, no, no, that's.

[A]

No offense to Nas. Like, it's the same thing. When we heard Kendrick's verse on nights where you're just like, I. I love Kendrick. He's a legend. You do not need him on this song. And, like, we're gonna talk about. Sing about me dying of thirst. I'm just like, this is a perfect song, and if any other rapper was on it, I actually don't like it. Still would be revered. I do think it would have n narratively and thematically taken away from it.

[B]

Okay, question number two. According to producer Scoop deville, the Janet Jackson sample in Poetic justice was inspired by something that happened while Kendrick and him were in the studio together. What happened in the studio that made them want to sample Jackson's Anytime, Any place?

[A]

I have no idea. No, I'm not even gonna act like I know what happened.

[B]

It's a very simple answer. It just came on the radio.

[A]

It just. This is all right, man. All right. Do you got one more?

[B]

I got one more. You want a third one?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Oh, and fun fact, do you know who. Who wanted the beat for Poetic justice but didn't get it and the producer gave it to Kendrick instead?

[A]

No.

[B]

50 Cent. All right, 50 Cent. One of the beat.

[A]

All right, this is. This is also the funny thing about, like, doing this exercise. When you. When you think about what artist could have got the beat, and you're like, what the fuck was 50 going to do like, at that time?

[B]

2013? Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, question number three, then. You got half point so far. What was the first song Kendrick recorded that eventually ended up on Good Kid? Mad City?

[A]

Last track. Compton, right?

[B]

Yeah. Come on. Okay, well, this is very interesting, Charles. So you are now in the lead by a half point.

[A]

All right, you know what? I think I'll have three. I think I could get three questions for you. I only had two, but I had one that's in the tuck, but I'm feeling okay. All right. Hell, yeah.

[B]

All right, time for the categories.

[A]

Time for the categories.

[B]

All right.

[A]

All right. So for those that have forgotten, we have five categories that we've been duking it out all season over. Biggest song, best song, worst song, best deep cut. These go head to head to decide which album of the episode goes into the finale, the Royal Rumble. I'm going to start off with the biggest song, and I'm not going to lie. This was more difficult than I thought it would be.

[B]

If you just go on streams, it's obvious.

[A]

It's obvious.

[B]

Surprised me. But.

[A]

So here's what was in the running right now, and we're talking about. If I'm just talking about the plaques, Swimming pools, and Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe or four times platinum. Poetic justice is double platinum, but the song that I'm picking right now is only certified platinum, which is Money Trees.

[B]

Okay, but Kendrick doesn't keep up on his certifications.

[A]

That's what I. That's. Yeah, I'm getting there.

[B]

He should have like, I saw some tweet. I don't know exactly the. The stats, but he can have like so many more diamond and plaques if he just accepted.

[A]

This is coming from Billboard Hip Hop. The tweet that you probably saw.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So if we're just going off of certifications that he could have that he is eligible for, Money Trees right now would be seven times platinum. Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe would be six times platinum. Swimming Pools would also be six times platinum. Now, I don't know how true that. Like, I think it's true. It's coming from the Billboard sounds, right? Yeah, it seems right. So for that reason and also on Spotify alone, Money Trees has 1.9 billion, which I find interesting. And the reason I find it interesting is that if I'm correct, Money Trees was not a single.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

It was. It's always been a crowd favorite.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But in the same way, when we were talking about Szeszes the Weeknd, there are certain songs that you're just like, we have to. Same thing with Frank Ocean's Pink and White where it's like, it's funny how you have to take out when you first heard the album and what were the first singles pitched to you and the singles that you were hearing for the last couple, like, for those years. And then compare it to, okay, this album has lived a longer life cycle. What's actually the biggest song? And I don't think it's surprised to me that it is Money. Money Trees. Money Trees is if I think it's a top three record on this album, to me, yeah. J Rock has a top five feature verse of the last decade in this. It is one of my favorite verses on the album. And weirdly, I didn't think this at the time. Money Trees to me weirdly, feels like the best hit because it's not trying to be a hit.

[B]

I was going to say exactly that because we had the same conversation with Frank Ocean where it's like, I mean, Blondie's not chasing anything. But if Pink and White is the most traditionally structured song, so you understand why it's yes, why it's a hit, the hit song. But also what's interesting about the streaming era is that we can just kind of look at the streams and point to songs that have been adopted as the quote unquote singles. Nowadays. It's not about what song is the official single. It's almost arbitrary. Unless you're kind of a huge pop star and there's a ton of money going into these singles now it's like to even circle back to your point about the art always kind of snaps back in place like the. The best of the best will survive and. And the fans will nominate the biggest song in a way that they couldn't before. And I think Money Trees to me was a no brainer in terms it was either that or Mad City in terms of like, in my mind, in my kind of observation of. Of people's listening habits and the culture at large, it's like, yeah, easy, easy. Call Money Trees. It's the most enduring song, I think, from the album aside from Sing About Me in terms of like reverence.

[A]

In terms of reverence. And also I think the thing about Money Trees that is the reason why I picked it for biggest is that to me, like I said, I think Swimming Pools, as time has gone on, I think Kendrick has gotten better at making those type of songs. I think the T minus beat seems kind of a little dated to me.

[B]

Swimming Pools sounds very much of its era.

[A]

Very much of its era.

[B]

And it feels a little bit hit chasing a little bit.

[A]

And same thing with a song that might be nominated for worst song that I'm not gonna bring up where it's like there's a few records on this where they're not bad records. When I'm listening to the entire album, they make sense. But to me it's special that the most. One of the most enduring and biggest songs off this is Kendrick with J Rock.

[B]

Yeah, the first.

[A]

The first star off tde, the person that like Kendrick has so much reverence for. Stomped. Before I even knew Kendrick was, I knew who Jay Rock was like really. I think was the oldest sibling of TDE in a lot of ways. Where it's like sometimes I feel like J Rock doesn't get as much love as he deserves. Even though without him, without his rapping style, just the way he moved through the industry, the way that he took a lot of dents for that label, he took a lot of arrows and still endured. And his verse, this moment, Money Trees being the part, like to me is very, very special as someone who was. When black hippie was just was nothing.

[B]

So, yeah, no, it's a great. And what I'm going to highlight throughout this episode is Kendrick doing one of the most difficult things you can do, which is create a concept record that stays true to the concept with every single song. It doesn't deviate ever from the concept. It all slots in perfectly somehow to the overall story. Like a scene in a movie. And he's try. And he's making hit singles where it's like swing pools. As much as it might sound like a 2000, early 2000s beat, it sounds like, you know, the. The chorus is a very well defined chorus that has a kind of call and response that's, you know, asking for audience engagement. It also fulfills the storyline. You know, we hear he's talking about being drunk at a party. At the end of the song is where things take a turn in the narrative. And what I love about Money Trees is that he's also telling the narrative. This is about him and his friends in Compton dreaming about getting paper. Getting money. You know, the next or the song before this is Peer Pressure where they're doing house robberies. And it's like you see the. The crime that that is pursuing paper. But then in a song like Money Trees, you see the dream of, you know, you see the incentive of what they're trying to do, which is make it out to find success somehow by any means necessary. And he's contextualizing every so much of the album with a song like Money Trees, yet it functions like a single. It has catchy things like Halle Berry, hallelujah, pick your poison, tell me what you're doing. But even that line right there is like showing you the dichotomy of the crime versus ambition and sin versus redemption and all of that. So it's like, man, he's like. You could. You could kind of see the stitchings with us album like Good Kid Mad City where, like, you can see him kind of threading that line. But as time goes by, he gets so good at. Even by the time he gets to Tabimba Butterfly, like, he's able to craft the concept. And singles are just so seamless. And that's something I'm going to try to honor. This episode is just like. Because I think that is so difficult to do that very few artists are able to pull off.

[A]

Yo, I could not agree more now. Best song. I had to do it to him. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Kendrick was our first. Kendrick brought us together. Last song standing for my best song, this was our first last song, standing Mad City. Crawl your head in that news, you wind up dead on the news. Ain't no peace treaty just piece and Bee Gees up to pre approved bodies on top of bodies obvious on top of obvious. Obviously the corona between the sheets like the Aussies when you hop on that trolley, make sure you. Now, I'm not going to belabor this. Please go listen to our. Our first season on that. Mad City is a perfect song to me. It is Kendrick Lamar's best song, I think. Still, I'm going to have a question about this. Okay, before we get into that, why do you think Mad City has endured to such an extent? Because what I remember about Mad City, when I was seeing Kendrick around the time that this dropped immediately upon release, this was the fan favorite. I remember sitting, like standing in line in Philadelphia waiting for him to perform. And this was the shit that people were like, yah, yah, yah yah. This was the one. And to this day, I just think it distills everything that Kendrick Lamar is from a narrative standpoint, from the fact that he's honoring west coast hip hop, but pushing it forward. The fact that he can do the rowdy, rowdy, just like. Like this is an anthem song, but not. But not slack on the lyrics. Not slack on anything else. We've talked about Mad City a lot. Why do you like. Why do you think this is the song from the project where people are just like.

[B]

Well, I think a lot of it is the live aspect of it because it does have. It has the. Just the beat itself is like. It turns up. And, you know, there's that early video of him performing this in a small club and people are. I think it's the. The. If I remember the story correctly, it's like people are jumping up so up and down so hard. Like it. The roof was almost collapsing.

[A]

Whoa. That was at south by Southwest was that.

[B]

That was Kendrick, right?

[A]

That was Kendrick where they broke. Because that was Ill Roots. The Ill Roots house, if I'm remembering correctly, at south by Southwest and yak yak yach. Everybody's jumping. Everybody's jumping in the floor like caves. I was like. I remember watching that video when it happened. So to your point, yeah, Mad City. To me, like, without that song on this album, I think this album still would have been great. But to me, this was the centerpiece. The centerpiece of just like you kind of. As a rapper, I feel like you kind of always need that raucous record, that live element that thing for people to be like, oh, I got this. Now I can. Now I can actually listen to everything else on the album and give it its right due.

[B]

Well, I think. Well, also, I'll just say, like, it is it. It functions on that level. But again, if you look closely at it, I think it distills Good Kid Mad City, maybe aside from Sing About Me, which is kind of the other side of this coin. But it's like everything from the beat, especially on the second half, to the feature MC8. Also, the sample of what we're hearing in the second half is a sample from Ice Cube, A Bird in the Hand, which is sampling BB Kings, chains and things. And so on our last long standing season, I talked a lot about how that history that we can trace in the sampling also kind of traces it kind of tracks with the history that Kendrick is talking about in the album. What Kendrick Amar represents, what Compton represents in the history of America. So all that stuff's in there. It sounds like we've talked a lot about this season about Radiohead, Frank Goschin being able to score musically. An emotional feeling.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And if he's talking about fearing police, you know, the red and white or the red and blue of the police sirens, or the red and blue of the Bloods and Crips and being a teenager growing up in Compton and constantly having anxiety and fear and looking over your shoulder at the threat of violence, the song sounds like that, you know, when we. The. The hook of this song, quote unquote, is like that detuned voice of a gang member saying, where are you from? And it's like, yeah, that functions as a hook and it goes off live. But also when you really think about what it's doing in terms of like, scoring the anxiety and fear of his upbringing, like, it's all in there. Like, this is a musical portrait of his childhood in Compton. And so when you're talking about a song that functions on so many layers, and if you're having to pick one song to represent Kendrick Lamar or even just Good Kid Mad City, it feels like this or Sing About Me on it again, kind of doing the same thing in a different way, this is the one. And. But I think what puts it over the top is that you can perform it live and it just functions as a great live show, like a live.

[A]

Song, you know, And I just have to shout out, like, I feel like the first half of the song gets a lot of love, but when do the 8.

[B]

I like the second half more.

[A]

The second half is to me is better when he's like, wake your punk ass up. But a Compton thing. And then Kendrick sounds like a bat out of hell. That first verse where he's like, fresh out of school. Because I was a high school girl, I was like, yo.

[B]

Even though. Like that when the second half of his. That. When the beat stops and he says, if I told you I killed N word at 16, would you believe me? Perceive me to be. That whole verse is virtuosic, the way the. The vocal effect pitches up high to low. Kind of in the same way Frank Ocean was, you know, experimenting with vocal effects to give you different versions. We're hearing the adolescent voice of him at 16 years old. Him citing now and laters to eat and playing basketball, painting you this portrait. And then it culminates with the final line. I live inside the belly of the rough Compton USA Made my angel on angel dust and that's the ma a D city. Like, he gives you the acronym at the very end of the song as the punctuation of this portrait of Compton. It's just. It's fucking perfect on. This song is perfect on every level. Like, the two sides of it going into the good kid Mad City, like, dichotomy. Like, it's perfect in the same way Nights has two sides. This song is also split in half, and it's also showing you the dichotomy. It's a perfect song. It's the best song, I think.

[A]

If we were redoing last song standing with Kendrick Lamar, do we still think we would pick Mad City? Because at this point, as I keep saying, I would hate to put Not Like Us on it just because it was such a smash hit. But the thing that we were saying in the beginning of the episode is, like, who endured throughout the 21st century who, quote, unquote, won in terms of just, like, the way they see the world, the way they view art, the way they release it. And you could make the argument that Kendrick won that battle, that real music like, yeah, real music last. And I could see Not Like Us making a case because, like, yes, you could say that this was the Drake diss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in embedded in that song, it's not just a Drake. This. It is like Kendrick being like, no, this is a foundation of hip hop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All that other shit is whack and it's fake, and you guys are colonizing all the shit that I fucking love and I'm done with it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I do think Not Like Us has a case to be Kendrick Lamar's. If you had to pick one song, you know, in that last long standing episode, I think it will probably go down as is most enduring song because.

[A]

It'S number two for me right now after Mad City.

[B]

And I think the history of the song is of Not Like Us and everything embedded. I think historically, Not Like Us is gonna have a really great case because you could. You could. How many conversations can you have through that one song about everything you've just laid out about hip hop history, the history of beef and hip hop and battle rap, and it's like there is so much embedded in the song and. But yeah, maybe let's not. Let's bring it back to Good Kid Mad City. But I think, all things considered, at this moment, Mad City has a very strong case to be the representative song in Kendrick Lamar's discography now.

[A]

Worst song. I'm not gonna pick this. There was two nominations.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't want to kick someone while they're down, but to your point, while we're recording this, there's been a lot of litigation. Poetic justice then and now. I'd never like this one with Poetic Justice. Poetic Justice If I told you that a flower bloo in a dark room what you trusted I may not write poems in these songs dedicated to you when you're in the mood for empathy is bloody in my pe. It's not a bad song to me. I understand why it's a hit. If you guys like Poetic Justice, I'm not telling you like. Like Poetic Justice, It's. It's a big song. I get why it's big. It's just like if Swimming pools. I think graphs aren't easier in terms of, like, the. A pop song or reaching for the radio or the charts, but still making sense. Swimming Pool to me, makes sense. Poetic Justice. I've always felt like Drake. I never thought that Drake and Kendrick have any type of chemistry on wax. It always felt a little bit, like, not forced. Even the sample felt a little bit easy. There's so much about this song where I'm just like Edie's. If in a vacuum, I think it's a good rap song for any other artist. If Poetic justice was in any other artist's discography, we wouldn't even blink an eye. We're just like, cool.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Yeah, that's a hit. I think in Kendrick's discography, I'm just.

[B]

Like, it's not what we go to Kendrick for.

[A]

I think he's better than it. Am I being a little too Harsh?

[B]

I don't think so. I mean, I've never personally liked the song. It's not the kind of music I gravitate, especially from Kendrick. So I. I am aligned with you for the most part. I mean, you can, I think, functionally, symbolically, thematically, conceptually, it fits into the record well. But if we're. If we're forced to choose, like, it's been so difficult this season to choose a worse song from some of these albums because they're all so great. It's definitely at the bottom tier of my. If I had to rank the songs off A Good Kid, Matt City, it's not the song I would choose. And I think we're aligned on the song that you're going to choose.

[A]

Yeah, the song that I'm going to choose. Once again, not a bad song. But this is the first song that he recorded for. For the project. Um. And, yeah, I think this has been a category where we're just like, it's so hard to pick a worse song off these albums just because they are so beloved. And, like, when I was listening to Compton Once Again in a vacuum, it's not a bad record. I just think that it ends such a cinematic project on a note that is, like, almost a little bit. It doesn't live up to the grandeur of everything that came before. Does that make sense? It's almost a little too tidy of a bow.

[B]

Yeah. That's the thing. I can see why symbolically, it's on there, because it is the first song. It's the song he made when Dre took him into the studio for the first time. So it's like, if Good Kid Mad City is in part about Kendrick making it out of Compton, we hear this is the literal moment he's making it out when he's in the studio with Dr. Dre, symbolically, this ties a bow on his entire childhood because he always famously talks about seeing Dr. Dre and Tupac shoot the California Love video in Compton as he was a kid, being on his dad's shoulders. And then you can just see how now, over a decade later, he's now in the studio with that very same guy. And so, in terms of the symbolic function of it, it's actually perfect.

[A]

Perfect, yes.

[B]

But it's also a song that was intended for the Detox album that Kendrick then took. And it's like. So it doesn't sound from. It sounds like Compton because It's written by Dr. Dre. The Beat, you know, so it's Has. It's. It's just like, I don't know. It's not my favorite on the project. The production feels like it sticks out to me a little bit.

[A]

It does. It does.

[B]

And it's like, if, again, if we're forced to choose, this is the one I'd choose.

[A]

I will. To me, Compton also feels like almost if. Because back then, people said it. People said it. Now this is just a movie. This is. This feels like of a time. This is a hood 90s classic movie. To me. Compton always felt like the cheesy song.

[B]

That they play over the credits, their end credits. Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Where I'm like, that's why it doesn't make sense to me. But I'm just like, yeah, those cheesy songs are always. I'm like, all right, man, we don't gotta end on this. But, like, Compton, not a bad song. Actually. Like, like, not a bad song. Just in terms of a near perfect album. I had to.

[B]

Kendrick's rapping his ass off for, like, for the record. Like, you could tell he's in the studio with Dre, trying to impress that second verse where he's. I forgot exactly what he says. But, like, he's. He's going for it in a way that it's like, this is my moment. So great. I. I like the song, but, yeah, forced to choose, but where are you going with Deep Cut? I think there's a lot of deep cuts on this record you could pick from, but I think there's just one clear. One clear winner.

[A]

So I think you'll be surprised. And this talks to maybe some of my maturity as a lover of music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think there was one answer, and this wouldn't have been my answer two years ago, three years ago, when this dropped, but it has to be singing about me I'm dying of thirst I woke up this morning and figured I'd call you in case I'm not here tomorrow I'm hoping that I can borrow a peace of mind I'm behind on what's really important My mind is really distorted I find nothing but trouble in my life I'm sorry Fortunate you believe in a dream this orphanage. I think that this might arguably be Kendrick's storytelling magnum opus. I think this is the foundation with which so much of his career sits, because this is really not only what ties the record together, but the cliche is that, you know, you have your whole life to make your debut album, and this is a song that is Kendrick's life. This is the thing where you're just like, okay. These are stories and moments that he has internalized. It's like, when I make my debut album. Yeah, this is the most. If I don't get this right, none of this works. And I can't listen to this song that much as an adult because it almost makes me cry every single time. The moment when. In the first verse, when. When they end with and I love you. Cause you love my brother like you did Just promise me you'll tell this story when you make it big. And if I die before your album, drop by Hope in the gunshots. Like, I cry every single time. Like, it's like. It's a very hard song for me to listen to. And I think it's also tied up in where I was in my life, where I was living in Philadelphia, going to school in temple, in a very, very bad area. Like, I heard gunshots go. Like, listening to this album, going to sleep. Kids would die. Like, you would wake up. Somebody on the block would be dead, whatever. And it was just like. It was a song that I just. At that time in my life, I'm like, I just cannot listen to this. There are so many people I know who just did not make it. And being 32 now and going back to this, it just touches me in such a different way. Him being that young, being able to pull it off, the duality of it. The first half of the song speaking from the three different perspectives, the switch up in the middle, the dying of thirst. Weirdly, I think the dying of thirst part of the song. There's nothing about the song that could be underrated, but going back to it.

[B]

I'm like, oh, yeah.

[A]

The dying thirst is like. Actually might be one of my favorite parts of, like, just the passion, the texture of his voice. Like, it just dying at thirst. Yeah, dying. It gives me, like. I like. I literally like people. You can't listen. I was just like, I like, literally, it makes me tear up, and it puts me in a place where I'm like, fuck. But he's just like, I think I have to honor this because if we're just going in terms of, like, spirit and importance and what makes this might be Kendrick's most important song to me.

[B]

Yeah, I think Dawes. All that was beautiful. And you said. I think what needed to be said for the most part. I think what I. The point I want to make about this song is, like, in this. The way it feel makes you feel emotionally. One is, of course, him being a great writer and matching the emotion. That conversation we have had about scoring musically, the emotional moment. And when I think about what hip hop does, so much of it is an outlet for giving a voice to the voiceless. Where else do we hear stories like this on a massive scale? We hear it in songs. We hear it. We see it represented. Sometimes in movies, sometimes. But so. And to me, this crystallizes exactly one function of hip hop, one variant, to me, very important function of hip hop. And it's like, literally telling the stories of people that didn't make it. You know, that first verse is taking on the perspective of someone that didn't make it. And so, yeah, and it's like, with so, like. So, like, if you contrast it with a song like Mad City. What? As much as it goes off live, there's always a part of me that's like. If you understand the song, it's like, it's a little, like, uncomfortable to make such a song about anxiety and fear and communicating all this stuff about his childhood and living in Compton to then kind of, like, turn up to it. It's just like, the dichotomy is sometimes when I think about it too hard, is a little weird. And I think a song like this forces you to feel emotionally as much as you can through art, you know, feel empathy for these stories. It forces you to feel them at a spiritual, emotional core in a way that Mad City actually doesn't. And I think that's something I really appreciate it about. This song is, like, just as you say, like, I can't listen to or even talk about it without getting emotional. And there's only so many songs I feel like, can do that to this degree, you know, and the writing on it is just exceptional in terms of, like, yeah, you can have the concept of rapping from these different perspective, but to pull it off in the way that he does and then to come back with the third verse and rap from your perspective.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And kind of tied a bow on everything. And then, you know, just.

[A]

I mean, it's also. What I think is so interesting about this song is that if we talk. Because we're gonna talk a lot about the politics of something like Defimba Butterfly, but the politics of Good Kid Mad City to me, are just as potent. And it's a song like this that really shows you where it's like, Kendrick is giving voice to people even in his life that are kind of on the periphery, where it's like, Dave is his man who just died, Dave's brother, Keisha's sister, and he's talking about if you think about even that first verse and the second verse, you have someone who is basically making him promise, like, yo, if I don't make it, I need you to, like, remember me and say my name on your debut album. So you think of just, like, the. The weight of that in Kendrick's mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then flipped with Keisha's sister being like, yo, you put my sister on blast on. What was quote, unquote, supposed to be? Not supposed to be, but, like, Kendrick's debut in terms of, like, section 80 and all that. And it's like, even within the song, you're dealing with this fact of, like, oh, well, Kendrick is a reporter of the west coast and of Compton and of his area and all of these people. And even within his life, he's just like, I'm even hurting some of the people that I'm close to or potentially failing. And that continues on songs like you Onto Pimpa Butterfly, where you're just like, oh, even as I'm becoming this messenger to the wider world, this is having repercussions to the black people who I know personally. And to me, that is such a. That's so powerful. Like, it's so. And it shows you, like, act. Actually, I think the difficulty of being a black artist, because when you're a white artist, because there's just so much more available to you in terms of just, like, so many more chances, so many more different genres, where it's just like, when you're Kendrick Lamar, it's like, oh, I'm not just speaking for me. I'm not just speaking for my hood. I'm speaking for my people. I'm speaking for the history of my people. There's so much more. And to me, I kind of want to just to honor a song, like, Sing About Me, I'm Dying of Thirst, where Kendrick is not backing away from the fact that he's not the perfect messenger in this. He's actually telling you where it's just like, no, no, no, no. Even within this, I'm at fault and I fuck up, and I'm giving you all of that.

[B]

Yeah. And that third verse is him kind of trying to state his case why he put Keisha's sister in a song. And it's like he's showing us the conflict of him wrestling with his influence. And it really foreshadows to To Pimp a Butterfly. The entire theme of To Pimp a Butterfly is how do I use my influence? You know? And, yeah, I mean, it's almost even hard to talk about a song like this, because the song itself is just. It's just so perfect, and it. To me, it's just like, if we're talking about our favorite moments or, like, not even, like, the most important moments of the 21st century, we've pointed to a few moments and songs throughout the season. Like, this is probably the moment from Kendrick's discography that would. If forced. I would point to this one in terms of, like, yep, this is the one.

[A]

If we take out, like, let's take out sales. Let's take out the history of just like, oh, like, how long is the Wikipedia gonna be for not like us or whatever versus if we're just, like, in a vacuum. What's the Kendrick Lamar song where you're just like, this is the man. Like, we're not talking about hits. We're not talking about streams. What defines him as an artist and as a man and as a thinker? It is Sing about me. I'm dying of thirst, and I'm like, if you take that away from us, none of this is here. So I wanted to, like, I know people like, damn, this is a char. I was waiting for, like, all right.

[B]

Well, let me do a quick tone shift, okay. Because this does lead me to my most dissectable moment.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Are you aware of the intertextual lyrical chain of connections in Kendrick's first five albums? It actually starts with Keisha's song and goes all the way to Mr. Morale's crown. Do you want me to lay it out for you?

[A]

I would, because one of my questions for Tapempa Butterfly was gonna go back all of the way to the Kendrick Lamar, one of his first mixtapes, where he's been telling a story not just of Keisha, but of Dave, his brother. All of, like, they're, like, there. But, like, I've never done the work of actually mapping it all out, so please.

[B]

Well, this one's. It's less thematic. I mean, it is thematic, but it's more of, like, you'll just see. I'll just lay it out, and we can talk about it. Okay, so, like, we just touched on Sing About Me quotes keisha song from Section 80, Kendrick's debut album. Right? Yeah, Debut mixtape. Whatever you want to call section 80. So in singing About Me, he says, you wrote a song about my sister on your tape recording section 80. The message resembled Brenda's got a baby. And on Kesha's song, he says, she played Mr. Shakur. That's her favorite rapper, bumping Brenda's got a baby while A pervert yelling at her. So he ties those two songs together. And then on to Pimp a Butterfly, the next album. These Walls quotes Sing About Me. So on these walls he says, walls telling you to listen, to sing about me. Retaliation strong. You even dream about me. So he's now connecting the story of Keisha. Not that started with Section 80, continued with Keisha's sister on Sing About Me and now coming back to it on these Walls. And these Walls is related to the same story about him having sex with this woman with. With that. Who's. Whose man was locked up in prison. These Walls is then quoted in Pride off of Dam. So on Pride he says, I know the walls. They can listen. I wish they could talk back. So we have now four album Chain, which is now completed with the fifth album Pride from Dam is quoted in Crown from Mr. Morale. So on Pride, it starts with love's gonna get you killed. Crown says, I can't please everybody. Love's gonna get you killed. I can't please myself. So if you follow that train, it connects all five albums together. And it's not only like, I'm quoting this album, I'm quoting a specific song. So it's like through the songs, not just the albums, that he threads this whole storyline together, which I don't. It's less of a story, but more of like a motivic thread. But it's just. To me, it just encapsulates the level of detail that Kendrick is creating his albums at. You know, it's like not only are they self contained concepts, they are also telling this larger story. If you follow the arc of his entire career. And this, to me, this little lyrical thread throughout the five songs, just kind of just a little window, a little example into just. Just how nuanced every fucking album by Kendrick is.

[A]

I dissected. Yeah, that was fucking dope. Hell.

[B]

Fucking little Easter egg. A little like, you know, I like that in the Marvel universe, you know, the intercontextual little references and all that stuff.

[A]

I'm fucking blown. Fucking Kendrick Feige over here connecting all this shit. All right, Cultural moment. There was a few to pick from.

[B]

Yeah, I'm interested where you're going because there's not an obvious one in my mind.

[A]

There's not an obvious one. Gotta go with the Macklemore text from the 56 Grammys.

[B]

The what?

[A]

The 56 Grammys. Macklemore's text after.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Wins Best New Artists over Kendra. Yeah, this at the moment, had people so mad. People were mad that McElmore won. People were mad at the text that he released. Kendrick did not seem happy about the text. Drake was not happy about the text. This was a thing, quote, you got robbed. I wanted you to win. You should have it. It's weird and sucks that I robbed you. I was gonna say that during the speech. Then the music started playing during my speech, and I froze. Anyway, you know what it is? Congrats on this year and your music. Appreciate you as an artist and as a friend. Now, I think Kendrick came out at some point and was just like, he didn't mind the text. It was more so that he posted the text. And I do want to shoot Macklemore. Sun Bale.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think Macklemore was put in. In a tough position because at that point, he had the bigger album, he had the bigger commercial moment. And I think the Grammy. I don't think. I know the Grammys is very, very, very out of touch and very, very good at awarding white artists over black and brown creatives. Now, I will defend Macklemore on this. In the subsequent years, he has been one of the rare rappers who has come forward to talk about very important things. You know, freeing Gaza, the Palestinian struggle. And I want to be like, hey, yo, a lot of people were cowards. And, like, Macklemore has stood on business early and repeatedly. And I think, like, history has kind of shown us that maybe, like, we' were too harsh on Macklemore. But the reason I picked this moment specifically is I think it is indicative to me of why we shouldn't put so much importance on shit like Grammys. Because obviously, Kendrick Les has become adored now. He has tons of Grammys. You know, he's won, like, what? Like, he became the fir. Was he the first rapper to win a Pulitzer Prize? Yeah, first rapper to win a Pulitzer Prize. And I think that the industry has been like, we made a mistake. We never want to make that mistake again with Kendrick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But to me, I'm just like, yo, we didn't. We didn't need the Grammys to tell us that Good Kid Mad City was great. The real people knew. We didn't need the Grammys to tell us that Kendrick was great. I listened to Section 80. I listened to OD. Even in the moment, I'm like, fuck the Grammys. I was just like, I didn't even care. I was just like, no. In no way, shape, or form did I ever think that the Grammys would get it right. Like, I don't care if he won best new artist or not. We knew that Kendrick Was the best new artist. And I just think it's kind of, like, interesting where it's like, so much of this season has been like, oh, well, Daft punk discovery is huge now. But in the moment, it was a slow burn. It kept being like scissors control. Like, it was a slow burn. You look at how much it sold in the first weeks or whatever, and I'm like, sometimes I think we get wrapped up at first week sales and, like, what it pitchforks. Like, what did this person say? I'm just like, yo, the mu. If the music's gonna last, it's going to last. Is sometimes you just got to be patient and let time do its thing. And that's why it's like, even when I think Kendrick stands, start arguing. And they're trying to be like, Kendrick is the most important rapper because he has this accolade and this accolade and this thing and that thing. And that's why he's better than. I'm like, shut the fuck up. Talk about the music. Like, how does the music make you feel? I don't care how. Like, I don't care who's awarding Kendrick. I care about, like, when we listen to his art. How does it make you feel? That's the thing that I always. And I think Kendrick has proven to us, like, yeah, he's the most celebrated now, but he was always dope.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, it is good. But that's a good moment, actually, because it is. It says so much, you know, like, all these. The. It's very symbolic of an era. It's very symbolic of that specific award show. And they have since. It's so funny how much they've been trying to, like, not letting. To your point, like, not let it happen again. They've, like, overcorrected in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But that's a good call because there's not a. There wasn't so many obvious ones to choose one that I would actually nominate. And it's almost like a reversal of the category is. Have you ever seen the video of Kendrick performing money trees at a best buy to, like, 20 people?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I love that. It's like a song that eventually gets, like, almost 2 billion streams on Spotify, you know, is. You know, it just reminds you of his story. And, like, you can have a song as amazing as money trees and at some point in your career, you're still performing at a fucking best buy.

[A]

And that's a good one. I also. This happened before Good Kid, Mad City, But I think it is indicative of just like, how many people believed in Kendrick, which is the video of Snoop crowning him like the king and like passing him the mic and passing the torch of like LA and West coast rap. And what I think is so genius about this is like people forget like section 80 sold a couple thousand copies its first week.

[B]

Yeah, like 5,000 or something.

[A]

Yeah, like something very, very low. And like Good Kid Mad City sold like really well its first week, but it wasn't like the highest selling shit, whatever. But for a rapper to like not have sold that much, didn't have that many hits going into Good Kid Mad City. I don't even know if I was ready for Kendrick to do what he did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, I think it's so like, interesting where I was just like, oh, for someone to get past the mic and actually like pass the torch and actually make good on it so rarely happens. There have been so many west coast rappers that were like, this is the future of west coast rap. And they are just not. And for like Snoop to notice it, to do it and then for Kendrick to make good on it like, like less than a year later is just. I was like, oh, he did it.

[B]

And continued to make good on it too. Which I think is actually a great segue into To Pimp a Butterfly, which will. Anything else you want to say about Good Kid Mad City?

[A]

No, that's all I had to say about Good Kid Mad City. But why don't we take a little bit of a break and then we'll into the sophomore release to Pimple Butterfly.

[B]

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[B]

Yep. Released March 15, 2015, had five official singles and I Blacker, the Berry King, Kunta, all right these walls. It sells 363,000 copies in its first week, debuting at number one on the Billboard 200. The album won Best Rap Album of the year at the 58th Grammys. Kendrick also received 11 total nominations, the most for a single artist in one night since Micha Jackson's Thriller era to Pimp A Butterfly is now widely cited as one of the best albums of the 21st century. The album was added to the US Library of Congress National Recording Registry, and it was ranked number 19 on Rolling Stones 500 greatest albums of All Time list. So where I wanted to start the conversation, though, with you today is kind of piggyback on what we were talking about before the break, which was you had mentioned during the Good Kid Mad City conversation that you have the cliche is that you have your entire life to write your debut album. And a lot of times there's this thing called the sophomore jinx or the sophomore slump where an artist shows so much promise as a Kendrick did, as so many artists do, and kind of always kind of struggles to live up to the expectations or to fulfill or surpass the promise that their debut album, we can name a number of artists that that's been the case for. And I think with tpimpa Butterfly, because it was so acclaimed, because it was. It wasn't quite the slow burn as we'd been talking about with other albums, but it took a while for the masses to kind of catch on to how monumental Kendrick was and Good Kid Mad City was. But by the time we get to Tampipa Butterfly's release, I think there was this weight placed on him as, you know, the savior of rap or the potential to lead us into this new frontier. And there's always the question of, like, when those expectations are placed on you, can you fulfill them? And if so, how do you do it? And I think so much of Tipimpa Butterfly in the moment was like, not only did Kendrick fulfill that promise and surpass expectations, he did it in a way that no one could have ever predicted in terms of he didn't make a Good Kid Mad City Part two. He actually went experimental and he made this jazz, funk, hip Hop fusion album that kind of has singles, but not really. And really just stayed true to a singular conceptual vision and proved his artistry even more somehow even more than good Kid Mad City in terms of a concept. And I think all the albums that we've been and artists that we've been talking about, you can kind of make similar cases for if you think about when we talked about Drake's Take Care and him surpassing expectations of his first project and so Far Gone, Frank Ocean's Blonde, another out, you know, artist after Channel Orange, a lot of expectations surpasses them with Blonde. We talked about Eminem's Marshall Mathers lp which comes after, you know, that's his third album. But, you know, everyone kind of knows him. The masses know him from. From some shady. He surpasses expectations. We can go Daft Punk Discovery, same thing. Radihead's okay Computer to Kid A same thing. And so all these artists, I think, show incredible promise and then surpass him. And I think it's an interesting starting point to talk about when we're comparing the albums and trying to figure out which one for this exercise. Like, I'm struggling to think of like how much we weigh to Pimp A Butterfly. Obviously phenomenal, exceptional, perfect album. But how much of our reverence for it is because of that dynamic of fulfilling the promise, surpassing the promise of the debut album. Is this making sense?

[A]

No, not only does that make sense, I think it's also, it's deeper in terms of just like, if you think about the landscape where to me one thing that's happened in the 21st century is that music has gotten more apolitical. I think with the rise of the Internet and social media, the 24 hour news cycle, all of these things, an artist has, quote, unquote, more to lose. Now I'm using quotes for a reason. I'm not gonna derail this whole thing, but in terms of just take Drake, take Taylor, take the Weeknd, take all of these, like the best selling artists of this decade. How political are any of them? You know? And for Kendrick during the Obama era, I remember being a black person at this time. And this is why I think you get Jordan Peele with Get out or you get stuff like Atlanta. The stuff that I was hearing in college, especially from a lot of older liberal white people, was essentially, racism is over. We have a black president. Everything is good. This is. There's the American experiment going right. There's everything that we're building towards. And I think it's very, very interesting and a Risk that Kendrick is like, good kid. Mad City is a regional album to me, and it is a personal album. When I say it's like a 90s hood movie, it is Kendrick as protagonist spinning you a tale of what it was like to grow up in Compton at this time. And to Pimp a Butterfly does something very, very traditional, which is most artists. Their second album is the I Saw the World.

[B]

The Fame album.

[A]

The Fame album. And this is how I feel when I saw the world and I come back home. Yeah, that is in this album. But, like, the real crux of this album to me is this is an America album. This is Kendrick being like, I saw the world.

[B]

I fulfilled the American dream.

[A]

I fulfilled the American dream. And now I'm seeing the Rotten foundation, and it's like, there's a reason to me even, like, you can be like, oh, well, he's hoity toity for doing the jazz thing. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. There is a very, very important thematic thing he is doing by saying, I'm going to very black music, like, the foundations of American music, jazz, funk. And I am using that to show you that this has always been a thing. And now my. My third eye is open to really what's happened. Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to step on one of the songs that I know you're gonna choose. But, like, Wesley's theory is that. And having someone like Dr. Dre deliver, you know, like, the hard part is keep it like that is so. Because you're like. You have to think of NWA and like, fuck the Police. And they were dealing with the same shit. And then you see what happens with all right Soundtracking an entire, like, the Black Lives Matter movement. I think that it's like, it was such a bold choice for him to be like, I'm making an am. Like, I'm making the American album. I've already get a little too excited.

[B]

But, yeah.

[A]

Should we go to a little bit of album trivia before. Before we spoil too much?

[B]

Yeah, no. Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

All right. So it was very, very hard for me to find, like, you know, this album backwards and forwards. So my first question. This isn't for a point, but you already know this. What was the original name for Tapempa Butterfly?

[B]

T. Pimpa Caterpillar.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The acronym being Tupac.

[A]

But Kendrick was texting with frequent collaborator Anna Wise, who was inspired because she went to a bookstore, she picked up a metaphysical, like, a book on metaphysics, and everything can you name me. What the. I think it was either the chapter or the phrase that she saw that Kendrick picked up on and was like, okay, I'm slightly tweaking this.

[B]

I definitely have talked about this and knew it at one point, but my memory is failing me right now because I can't remember the.

[A]

Cause here's the thing. I've read the same thing, and I was just like, I forgot the phrase.

[B]

That's a good question. Yeah. What is it?

[A]

Conversations with a Butterfly.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

That was a good one.

[B]

That's a good one. Yeah. No, that's good. I love it like such. That's a perfect album title to me. Like, To Pimp a Butterfly is just.

[A]

All right. I will also say people are going to be like, no, that's not true. Titles are so important. If this was called To Pimp a Caterpillar, I don't think, like, that's such a whack name to be like, caterpillar is just not like, I get it, like, what it's trying to do, But To Pimp a Butterfly just sells it way more.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, To Pimp a Caterpillar, it's a little clunky.

[B]

It also doesn't give you the beauty of the butterfly with the juxtaposition of the pimp. And it's just. It's so perfect.

[A]

Now my second question. Kendrick has a very, very interesting relationship with Canada and Canadian rappers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But if it was not for this Canadian rapper, Assassin would not be on Black or the Berry. Which Canadian rapper helped get Assassin on Black or the Berry?

[B]

Damn. Maybe I've known this at one point. It's a Canadian rapper. Can you give me a hint?

[A]

I cannot.

[B]

For a half point reduction.

[A]

For a half point reduction. He had a relationship with the producer, Boy Wonder.

[B]

Fuck. Who is it?

[A]

All right, quote, I got a call from Cardinal official, who I worked with and who understands my work. He had a relationship with Boy Wonder, who reached out to him with a vision for the song of wanting, I guess, a Jamaican perspective. Cardinal suggested. Yo put Assassin on there. They sent a demo with a sketch of what they had, including a chorus. I ended up doing my different interpretation, which they ended up using. I was just as surprised as the rest of the world that the whole thing came together. And that is Assassin talking to Vader.

[B]

That's. I actually didn't know that. So very good question.

[A]

Come on, man. Come on. I was ready for this. All right. This one was more so interesting to me. It's not going to be A quote or it can be a question. Dave Free revealed in a podcast that the very emotional song you has a connection to a very, very early song that Kendrick released on the Kendrick Lamar ep. Do you know the title of that song?

[B]

I'm gonna look up the track list on Kendrick Lamar.

[A]

Once you see the track list, you're gonna know what I mean.

[B]

Okay, so we're talking you connection to a song that's on Kendrick Lamar ep. This is a hard one. I actually have never heard this before, and I'm interested what the connection is. And I'm just trying to think through thematically. Is it pnp?

[A]

No, it's Uncle Bobby and Jason Keaton.

[B]

How was the connection?

[A]

Well, this is. I got this from Vibe, so I'm reading correctly. I'm reading straight from there. A deep cut that longtime Kendrick fans may be unfamiliar with is from Kendrick lamari p Uncle Bobby and Jason Keaton, which serves as an open letter to his loved ones. Behind the prison walls on a butterfly. We get an extension of the story of Jason Keaton, a childhood friend, on you. And the quote that they pull from day free from this podcast that he was on was, chad was a really hard one for Kendrick because Chad was younger than us, like a little. Like a little bro. And we talked to him. We were supposed to see him and we didn't even get to see him, but we talked to him on FaceTime, which is revealed. I remember all night. Never forget it. He facetimed me and we were on the bus talking to him and we were telling him, bro, we're about to come back and see you. We're going to try to cut this run short and get back to you. And we didn't make it back to see him before he passed.

[B]

I loved learning that. And it's.

[A]

And let me see, this was from the big hit show podcast where they did kind of like an oral history of Butterfly.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I did not know that either. So I didn't get time to, like, really dive deep in terms of, like, comparing each song. But, like, when I was doing some research, I found that.

[B]

So another interesting inter. Intertextual connection between albums.

[A]

Come on, man.

[B]

Very good. Okay, well, I'm. You officially have won the half point by a half point.

[A]

And what's. What was hard about this is I was just like, I literally tried to get out of doing this because I'm just like, there's no way I'm gonna find any questions.

[B]

Those are good. Yeah. I only knew the first one. I definitely knew at some point, but the second two, actually. I don't think I knew. So you. You did a very good job, Charles.

[A]

All right, yo. So I think we all know what the biggest song is gonna be. So without further ado.

[B]

Gotta be all right.

[A]

We gonna be all right we gonna be all right we gonna be all right.

[B]

Do you hear me?

[A]

Do you feel me? We gonna be all right we gonna be all right.

[B]

Biggest song, off to Pimp a Butterfly. Although you would think maybe it was King Kunta, but Histor maybe in the moment, in the release, but once all right really just, like, took off.

[A]

It's just like, wait, before we get into all right, if I was going to do an honorable mention, King Kuna is such a good.

[B]

It's aged really well.

[A]

Really? Really? And I will say, at the moment. So at this point, I had not even become, like, a music writer yet. I think I was like an intern for, like, a music PR play. So I would be the guy writing up, like, this rapper has a new song or whatever. And I remember I was like, working. I woke up one morning and I remember when I dropped not the one that's on the album. That's the live rendition. Like, and I remember the feeling people hated that song. Like, what the Is Kendrick doing? These rude Is his career. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was supposed to be like, this sucks. I love myself. Get this out of here. And I was so worried. And then when Kin Kunta drops, the video is still to this day one of my favorite Kendrick Lamar videos. I got a bone to pick. Amazing. The beat. King Kunta. Like, I know we can't pick it as big a song. I wish we could. You're gonna kill me for saying this. I like Kin Kunta better than I like all right. Even though all right is bigger, more important, I still like alright. King Kunta as a rap fan of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Robbing with a ghost rider. What the fuck happened?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Like, what? I. I love that Kendrick always kept his powder dry in terms of, like, a lot of people have alleged that King Kunta is addressed to. To Drake because this is around the time that Meek Mill, Drake are going about it. I love the fact that Kendrick has always been like, you know, I'm keeping my powder dry until this motherfucker actually turns up.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. And we get not like. But yeah, I just. I'mma let you talk about all right. But I wouldn't be the rap nerd in me if I was just like, yo, Ken, Kunta is the one.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I. Not to say I didn't like this song when it first came out, but it wasn't one of my favorites. But now it's one of my favorites on the album. It's aged really well for me personally.

[A]

It's aged really, really well. And I also think what I like about it is just like how daring it was to think that, like, he was trying to get this off as a singer. What world is this weird ass song gonna be the single? And it was like, I was reading that. I think Soundwave was the one who said it that, like, King Kunta was way more. There was way more instrumentation, There was way more jazz influen. There was like, there was so much. And Kendrick was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're taking a bunch back. And I'm just like, what I think about King? I'm like, whoa. It was more. There was more.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But anyway. All right.

[B]

Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting song historically, right? Because it wasn't like the. It was the third single, I think maybe even the fourth, but.

[A]

And it wasn't meant to be a single.

[B]

It wasn't. Yeah. It doesn't seem like it was meant to be a single, but it almost like the fans adopted it as a single.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And over time, it has only grown in stature. It's the one. If you had to choose one song off of the album, I think it has to be all right in terms of, like, to have the historical conversation of this album. It is through the lens of all right simply a lot of it just becoming. Because it was set in the streets and was adopted as this kind of street anthem during Black Lives, the height of the first.

[A]

When I was protesting in, like, when I was protesting at this time, I remember vividly, like, not only watching and hearing people, like on the news chanting this, but when I was in the street. And you could. It's one of those moments where as a music fan you can see in real time a song becoming iconic, a song that you had listened to, and you're just like, oh, this is just another song off the album. And then you're just like, oh, no, no, this is going to be something that we're singing forever. Which is like a weird thing to, like, in the moment, like, yeah, oh, okay.

[B]

It's the story we'll tell our kids about, you know, like, in terms of like, I remember I was there when. And I saw the transformation of this song and specifically this refrain. But it's. I mean, it's so. It's. It's so classic Kendrick, though, because if you actually look at the song, the first verse and the second verse are all supporting the narrative. In the first verse, he's talking about defeating Uncle Sam, saying, when I wake up, I recognize you looking at me for the pay cut.

[A]

So when I wake up, I recognize you looking at me for the pay cut.

[B]

I mean, he's referencing the previous song, you, and the drunken night in the hotel. And he's waking up from that and he's looking at Uncle Sam and like, saying, I've defeated you. And then verse two, he introduces the second antagonist of the album in Lucy and Lucifer. And the whole verse is about Lucy and rapping from Lucy's perspective, which, you know me, the music nerd, conceptual nerd in me just loves that. Like, this historic song embedded in it is. Is an. It's essentially a narrative out track on the album. But then, of course, he does the brilliant thing where it's like, okay, we got the narrative stuff in the verses and all that is. You know, it. It's very specific to the narrative. But that narrative is telling a story about America. So it's like, it does function to serve the song itself. And what he's saying specifically in the pre chorus, when. That's when he starts to get really more directly political, saying, we hate the popo. I'm at the preacher's door, My gun might blow. And so you're getting the historical. You're getting the narrative subtext, but you're also getting the historical stuff, the political stuff on the surface. In the pre chorus, he also starts it with the iconic, All's my life, I had to fight, which is calling back to life.

[A]

I had to.

[B]

Calling back to Alice Walker is a Color Purple. And that's. That's. That just that phrase alone is embodying an entire history. So it's like, for the right reason, this song was adopted. It's not just because it was a catchy refrain that you could repeat in the streets. It was like, embedded in the refrain, we gonna be all right is the history of America. You can tell the story of the history of America. Specifically.

[A]

This wasn't made as a protest song. But what I like to tell people among, like, most black songs, especially black songs that are talking about politics in America. Embedded in it is the protest of just living as a black person and having to fight. And I'm just like, it's not. It's a very. You can see the clear line why people were just like, this needs to be the song that we're Chanting in the streets. But what I want to ask you actually, with like Mr. Morale now out, I felt like. And I feel like a lot of Mr. Morale is wrestling with this. And even after this song, Kendrick in interviews wrest wrestled with this where I think it's hard as an artist when your a song that you intended for one thing is then taken by the world and it becomes something else. And there's the positivity of like, we needed the song at the moment, we needed something to rally behind to chant. And that's beautiful. But to me, Mr. Morale is also like, well, what happens when more like bad faith actors start using my messaging for their own ends? And it's like, you know, we are not gonna get into this in this podcast. But I do think that like some of the things that came out after some of the leaders of various movements or whatever, potentially not being in it for the right reasons, you know, money and greed and everything. And that is the history of any type of, of any type of movement of like, there's the people who are doing it for the right reasons and then there's the people that are using it for a quick check. And a lot of mis morale, I think is like, Kendrick tried to be like All Right. People are using my words and my image in a way that I never signed up for. Which I also think is like, interesting when I go back to all right.

[B]

Or even to Bibb A Butterfly in general.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because you can trace a lot of what he's wrestling with to this album specifically, not just to alright, because I don't think it was quite written. Like, as you said at it wasn't.

[A]

Meant to be what it became.

[B]

And. But the irony is that all the things you said about corrupt movements or specifically certain people within these movements that are overall good, is that that's the theme of this album. Are you going to pimp your influence for your own personal benefit and get tempted by Lucy, get tempted by the money, get tempted by the money trees? Or are you going to actually stand on the your principles? Are you going to stand on your values and how do you live up to those values? And I think for Kenya Kendrick, it's funny because we're saying all right doesn't feel like a reached anthem, but at the same time you have to pair all right because so much of alright became an anthem simultaneously because of the bet of performance of all right where he's standing on the cop car, the Grammy performance of all right in black, or the Berry where he's dressed as a Prisoner and he has handcuffs on. And so he's. That iconography is very much implying that I am. Am the guy that you think I am. Yeah, I am this leader. I'm willing. And in interviews, specifically the one with Rob Markman at the time of Butterfly, was asked point blank, do you see yourself in the lineage of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X? And he says, pretty much says, yes. You know, it's like, I. I'm willing to take on that responsibility. Doesn't compare them, to be clear, he doesn't compare himself to those people, but he says, if that is the responsibility placed on me, I am willing to accept it. And so it is this weird thing where it is part adopted by the. By the people, but it is also him fulfilling or beginning to fulfill an image of himself and where he thinks he might be going as a. Terms of not only a musician and an artist, as a. As a. Just a. As a leader. And I think Mr. Morale obviously was wrestling with the trajectory of that and essentially, in a pub, very public way, saying, I'm not that guy. I've decided I'm not that guy.

[A]

And that's what I think is always the interesting thing about Kendrick. And, you know, and in the past, I've been difficult with them because I think the thing that's hard about being a black artist and a black entertainer and someone who is the guy, is that the same hubris that it takes to become a rapper, to get yourself out of poverty, everyone, you know, out of poverty, and become like, the best rapper. Working the best rapper alive is also the same thing that can cause you to cheat on your family, to not be around when people, you know, potentially die, to do all these things, to, like, at once be like, no, I am a leader. I'm going to live up to that. And then realize, like, that actually might not be my calling. That actually might not be where I do the most good. That's what I think actually makes interesting artists.

[B]

Or I think in Kendrick's case, it's. In terms of Mr. Morale, I think it's clear that his perception of what it takes to change the world changed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it became very individual. Individual first in terms of, like, I can't change the world until I change myself. I can't be the leader until I overcome my own personal things. Which obviously, with Mr. Morale, it was revealed that was struggling with sex addiction and, you know, he had vices that he was kind of alluding to. In retrospect, we can see the. The seeds of, like, him kind of saying I have a problem with sex. Yeah. But it wasn't only until, like. So I think. I think a lot of things was revealed in Mr. Morale. One of one, taking the crown off formally, he does that. That. At the same time, Mr. Morale is a blueprint to change yourself, to change the world by changing yourself. It's the individual journey first that then spreads to the collective. So to Bim of Butterfly, I think, just in general, even beyond all right. Is so interesting in retrospect. It's. Part of me is so curious what he would actually say about the album and this era and how much he would. How he would comment on how he was moving and his mindset. Because part of me is like. When he's comparing it, when he says, I'm willing to take on that responsibility, I actually believe him because he was. You could just feel the anxiety in an album like, Damn. And then Mr. Morale, like, he was considering this very seriously. He was thinking about, how do I help my community? How do I not only bring myself out of this struggle? How do I take my entire commute? How do I change the world in that way for my people specifically? And I think he took that seriously. It's not like he just.

[A]

Oh, I think he took it seriously. But also he was very. I forget how old he was when he made this record, but he was still a very young man. And to me, this is a young man's record where it's just like, when you are given that. When that responsibility to be a leader in your community is hoisted upon you, a lot of times, it is not lost on me that. That whether it's the Black Panthers, Black Lives Matter movement, in any situation, it is usually young people with the energy and a lot of times with the ignorance necessary to feel like they can change the world. Because when you get older, you're just like, Mr. Morale is an old man record. You're just like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't have. And it's not the. I'm not using ignorance as a bad thing. Like, the ignorance of youth of, like, oh, I know enough now to be like, I can be a leader. And Mr. Morale, to me, is just like, now that I know a lot more, now that I have had kids, now that I've done all of these things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I realize how difficult it is to be this and how much like, Kendrick probably knows, like, I can affect a lot of change. But he. You hit a wall to your point where it's just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can only do so much until I'm just like, whoa, I have to fix myself.

[B]

It was also him getting behind the scenes. This is pretty clear in Mr. Morale. There's very specific lines about this, this beginning being privy to be having a seat at the table behind these big institutions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And seeing the corruption, seeing that everyone is self motivated even in these so called humanitary efforts. Like I trying to remember the line he says where he says I ain't taking no corporate meeting. They all greedy. They all, you know, so, you know, so he's been behind the scenes and he's seeing like, yeah, maybe institutions are just, especially in America are just kind of of doomed to fail. And so how do I affect change? Well, I can, I can show you how I change myself and how I healed from my own trauma and give you a blueprint to do. Do the same for you. But we're, we're still only in the first category. Just we got to move on before this becomes a four hour podcast. So. Best song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think there's just one clear choice in my mind. I might be. I might be wrong here. But. But Wesley's theory is so good.

[A]

I don't know if there's one clear choice.

[B]

Maybe that's. Maybe that's.

[A]

But Wesley's theory is at least today my favorite song on this album. At first I did love you but I just want to Late night thinking of.

[B]

Okay, so I'm not crazy. I don't know if this is going to get a lot of pushback because there is, I guess you could say like, you know how much a dollar cost is great. You could say what Black are the berries. Great. There's a lot of songs I guess you could come like even you. I really, really, really like you. But Wesley's theory is the one for me.

[A]

What he's doing musically, what he's doing lyrically, how it sets up the album.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Wesley's theory doesn't work. The rest of this album doesn't work. It's like the perfect like and it's all. When I listened to the album at the time, I loved Wesley's Theory. I'm like this is such a bold way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To introduce that you are not doing good, kid. Mad scene like it is such. I was just like, yo, a lot of people are going to hate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This. But he's doubling. I love Wesley.

[B]

Yeah. It's not quite the kid a opening going electronic moment to me but it's somewhere in the vicinity in terms of like, like yeah. No one would fault Kendrick for doing good Good Kid, Bad City Part two, essentially on the sophomore record. But this is an op. This is a statement. I think it's the best musical synthesis of everything he's trying to do on the album in terms of fusing the history of black American music into one album and hearkening back to that history. Like, I think this to me is the most successful fusion. You get the funk, you get the jazz, you get the hip hop elements all in one, very seamlessly. To your point. Incorporating Dr. Dre is just a. Just one of those chess moves of brilliance that only Kendrick Amar would think to do.

[A]

Ending your first album on Compton and then starting with Wesley's is such a fucking good. And it's just like every part of. It's like, what are some of my favorite. What you want? You a house or a car for the Yickers and a mule. I love this, like. And you're probably surprised she's like Trussel's like this. I was harsh. I've been harsh on To Pimp a Butterfly throughout my years as being a music journalist. And you're gonna kill me for saying the statement. A lot of me being harsh was because he starts off with what is arguably the best song in this album. I was waiting for him to reach that. And I do think he does reach it again. But I'm very much a prisoner of just like. I love how chaotic this is when.

[B]

The four corners of this cocoon collide. Like such an iconic. It's such an iconic intro. I mean, even like just another nuance, another detail like that Boris Gardner sample that starts the album. The every N word is a star is so brilliant because every is a star. Thanks for saying. Yeah, thank you for saying it, cuz I cannot.

[A]

But who am I?

[B]

But the thing I love about however, he found that sample. Who knows? But to recognize within that sample that you can interpret it as from the perspective of Uncle Sam singing that. Yeah, pimping the star, pimping the butterfly. Pimping a Kendrick, a black man, to. To his own benefit. We literally hear Uncle Sam coming in on the second verse of this song. Or you can hear it as an affirmation. Every N word is a star. And we're going to transform this word that has historically been used to degrade us, which he literally does on I. In the climax of the song, he reads that poem and he brings it back to the nikas and the African origin of the word, transforming it into royalty because it meant king. So that it's a perfect opening of the. It expresses Dichotomy, it comes full circle.

[A]

I mean, it's just everything that you need to understand about the album is put into Wesley's Theory, which I think is also like, it's a thesis statement in the truest sense of the word, where it's just like, hey, if this is an album that's too much for you, or it's like, it's gonna take a while for you to understand. Just go back to Wesley's Theory. Think about the features, think about the samples, think about what I'm saying, think about Lucy, think about Uncle Sam. All of that is there. And then like, that's why I always like, I have to start the album with Wesley's Theory. Cause it kind of just like, even if I don't listen every song in this album, it locks me into what he's trying to do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I think we, we got to move on. But I, I, I'm, I could talk.

[A]

About where we have to move on, but like, yeah, I could talk about.

[B]

Wesley's Theory opening song. It might be like the best opening song in the 21st century. Now I'm thinking about just like everything that it's accomplishing in one. And to make it just a good song and it's setting up everything thematically is just like, it makes my mind explode in terms of like how much he truly is accomplishing. And it's such a perfect album opener. Okay, so worst song. This is hard for me. You know, it's, I mean, we've talked about this all season in terms of the difficulty of this category on these phenomenal albums. If forced to choose, I'm debating between Complexion and you ain't got a lot of.

[A]

It has to be Complexion. And this has nothing to do with guys, I get it. I am a light skinned black woman. Me picking Complexion is not the greatest choice. I understand that. Guys do not hate me. All of it is just, I think To Pimp a Butterfly at some points gets a little bit unwieldy in terms of just like what it's trying to accomplish. And I think Complexion even sonically sounds a little bit. It not of the record in terms.

[B]

Of just like, it's not the strongest production on the record. It's probably my, it's probably my least favorite beat.

[A]

It's my least favorite. Like a lot of it has to just do with like the beat in the Complexion. It's just a little bit like Rhapsody.

[B]

Killed her verse though.

[A]

Rhapsody kills every single verse she's on. Like, that is not what's in question. Rhapsody. And I think was. Was this the song that Prince was.

[B]

Supposed to be on these walls? I think these walls was prints, which would have been.

[A]

But yeah. Has to be complex. Like, they gonna kill you if you pick. Don't pick Complexion. They gonna kill your white ass. I can say it's real. Do not pick Complexion, man. But Complexion would be my worst.

[B]

Justin's back at the right moment here.

[A]

Yeah. Literally just shook his head. Yeah, I know.

[B]

Cole. I was listening to this this morning.

[A]

And I was like, you.

[B]

You cannot pick Colette. I knew Complexion would be in the discussion for.

[A]

For this. You cannot do that.

[B]

All right, we'll pick Formality. Let's pick you a cuddle lie.

[A]

Yeah. That's actually the right choice. I was. I. This morning, I was like, it's probably.

[B]

One of those two.

[A]

And I'm like, do the.

[B]

Do the right thing.

[A]

Ask where the h to impress me Ask where the money bags to impress me. Say you got the burning stash to impress me. It's all in. Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, this is the point of the album, though. Just like. So after how much the revelation of how much the dollar costs, it goes into the final act of the album. And this is after the revelation of meeting God in this fable. That is how much a dollar costs. This is where he turns to the. This is where Kendrick transforms into the leader. So just to tell you where we are in this album. So all the songs after it get overtly political or have some kind of very, very overt explicit message. So we get Complexion. We get the Black or the Berry, which kind of is the dual. The flip side of that coin, you get Ain't gotta Lie. So these are like the lessons of the album being stated very explicitly, how he's going to change his community. And it's ironically, I think, the weakest stretch of the album because it does get so explicit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where everything. We've talked about this throughout the season and this episode where sometimes the implicit things are actually the most powerful.

[A]

Well, I also think because. And I keep going like Kendrick was young. I think it is very, very hard to totally land. Like, I've become kinder to this half of the album where I was just like. A lot of the stuff that he is trying to locate politically. I don't know if he has a firm grasp on it. Cause I don't have a firm grasp on it because it's just like. It's so complex. There's so. In the same way we were talking about singing about yout I'm dying of thirst. Like, you look at Kendrick lyrics one way, he's doing something so uplifting. And then he'll do the thing where it's just like, well, this hurt someone in my life. Or like, they didn't receive it this way. And I think, like, one of my favorite songs on this record, Blacker the Berry, gets into this a little bit where I'm like, I get what he's saying, and I've grown to love that song a lot more. But because he is also trying to make, like, a very, very just, like, statement. Statement. And he's trying to inject energy into the album, I'm just like, oh, this song is doing, like, one too many things, even though it's still one of my favorite. And to your point, I'm like, it's a lot easier when it's an implicit thing versus just like, oh, I'm trying to underline this at the end. And that's. That's what makes a good album. Like, ambitious. I would rather you be ambitious and sometimes be like, man, there's a. There's a lot. You probably needed a fourth or fifth verse just to kind of get everything, but, yes.

[B]

All right, so that brings us to best deep cut. This was already also sneaky challenging for me because there's one song on this album that has really aged, for me, personally, incredibly well, to the point where it's, like, maybe a top five song on the album. For me, my more obvious choice was gonna be how much a dollar cost. Because just from a lyrical, like, storytelling, it has all this, like, stuff we like, traditionally praise in a rap song and has the twist ending, and that's the moment, like, things pivot in the narrative. So I really respect it on that level. But I'm gonna go with my heart here. I'm just gonna go with my gut. That's Hood Politics.

[A]

Time to bubble up the bread and huddle up Stick it to the spirits now you know if them Benjamins go cuddle up Skip hop, drip, drop, flip, flop with the white tube sock it go I been a one since day one, you niggas Boo, boo, dog. I listened to this last night. I loved Hood Politics. Hood Politics is in my top three on this album, then. But it is. It is aged like fine wine. It sounds better now than it did that. Hood Politics is such a good song.

[B]

Especially where it comes on the album where you. You just. Because you're coming off of For Sale and Mama and, like, the heaviness of you, and it's like, it Just injects so much energy. And it's like that side of Kendrick that especially we're. We're now spoiled with the side of Kendrick with GNX and everything this past year. But, like, this was the one song you would point to. It's like, can we get Duck version of Kendrick Lamar a little bit more? Because this is, like. It's just that classic, like, slumpy beat. The beat is just like. Like, this is.

[A]

Here's the thing. Like, Aubrey should have listened to this. This is. This is the type of song we be like, dog, that nigga crazy. I'm not. I'm not, bro. That's. That's the type. You know, throughout our whole friendship, this is the Kendrick Mara, like, just insane little gremlin mode, just rapping his ass off. Like, I forgot how much of this song. Not only do I remember, like, lyrically, just. No, because I just is. Yeah. I think this song is fucking incredible. I think how he's rapping on it. The aggression and then. But once again, still staying on message, still staying, like, to the core of what to Pimp a Butterfly is about. This, to me, is the epitome of, like, a. What a deep cut means to an album where it's like, I thought it was good then, but to return to it and be like, oh, there's just so many deeper layers to this song.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, one of the most. I mean, that second verse in general is just so good. Like, what I didn't realize until. Just returning to this song for this exercise. So the opening lyric of verse one, verse two, he says, hopped out the Caddy just got my dick sucked the little homies called and said the enemy's done clicked up. So what I think he's. I was always confused by that. That opening line. And this is a working theory. So if it's wrong, don't. Don't kill me. But, like, I was. I was like, oh, maybe it's like playing off of a presidential Cadillac and because we're. And essentially alluding to Bill Clinton.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting his dick suck in the White House. Because what is he. How does he continue the verse where he says, streets don't fail me now they tell me there's a new gang in town It's a new gang town From Compton to Congress set tripping all around Ain't no nothing new But a flew of new Democrats and Republicans Red state versus a blue state which you. Which one you govern on and this right here, they give us guns and drugs, call us thugs, make it they promise to fuck with you. No condom. They fuck with you. Obama say what? What it do. And so the whole point of this verse, or a large part of it, is like, essentially calling out the hypocrisy of politicians branding themselves as these saviors where they're actually doing the most damage. They're the ones waging political wars against entire nations. They're the. And they're the ones branding us as the problem. And it's like, no, Bill Clinton was getting his dick suck, and he's waging war in the Middle East. You know what I mean? So it's like, like. And just calling out the hypocrisy in a way that is implicit. I mean, that gets a little explicit there. But it's like, this is the more. It's like, even though this is not as explicit as a complexion or even a black or the Berry, I'm coming to appreciate the politics, no pun intended, in a song like this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where he's breaking down, but not in a way that's over as overt as.

[A]

He'S not pointing to it as much. It still works within the function of the song. And then it does the great thing when you, like, read the lyrics. Unless it's. You're like, oh, but that is. That's a good dissection.

[B]

I think so. Yeah.

[A]

That's really good.

[B]

Yeah. All right, moving on. Let's go to best moment.

[A]

We know what this is.

[B]

What's your best moment?

[A]

It has to be the impact of. All right.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, okay.

[A]

Wouldn't that be the moment? It's.

[B]

Well, that's not. That's not a singular moment. My moment incorporates that, though. My. My best moment is Kendrick's live performance run post to Pimpa Butterfly. So I'm talking about 2015 BET Awards of. All right. Standing on the COP card, which directly gets nodded to on the opening of Damn. The Colbert late night performance of Untitled 03. Remember, he went on a run of late night performances not performing any song. Off to Pimp A Butterfly, doing all the B side that would eventually come out when Untitled Unmastered.

[A]

That Untitled performance made me really excited for an Untitled Unmastered. Then I listened to Untitled Unmastered. I'm just like, y' all need to master these records.

[B]

Another hot take.

[A]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Those records need to be mastered. I'm gonna be on. I wish. Like, here's the thing. Free, like, some free games, some free advice. Hey, yo, just do Untitled Mastered and just drop it today. People will be so happy. They're like, finally, it sounds good in my whip.

[B]

Okay. And then also that, obviously, I think the capstone of this run was the 2016 Grammy performance of Black and the Berry. All right. And then Untitled 05 at the end of that performance, where he's again incorporating so much of black history, starting with the. You see him locked up and his. He's in the prison garb, and then kind of transporting himself into, like, a African scenery and then closing with the portrait of Africa with Compton, you know, starred in the center. And I think we think about Kendrick as a great performer now, but that was definitely not the case pre to Pimpa Butterfly.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

And I think these, along with Tabimba Butterfly, coupled with these iconic performances, a number of them, this just kind of historic run of live performances really solidified the Kendrick Lamar of this era. But I think just this is the moment in my mind, Kendrick Lamar was born in terms of how we think of him today, and it really just crystallized everything about tpimpa Butterfly. And I don't know if we think about tpimpa Butterfly with such regard. Of course, it would always be regarded, but I think these live performances had a lot to do with how we think about tpimpa Butterfly and Kendrick Lamar. And so. So, yeah, I think the legacy of All Right is kind of embedded in that. And I don't know if it becomes an anthem without these performances as well.

[A]

And I'll just go one step further. I don't even think it's just the live performances. I just think aesthetically and artistically as an artist before Good Kid Mad City, and even with Good Kid Mad City, like, the Good Kid Mad City music videos are fine to me. He didn't really have style. He didn't really have a view, like an aesthetic viewpoint to me, into Pimple Butterfly with the performances, with the music videos, with the album cover, with everything that happen, like, he's starting to find himself, and he is starting to be like, okay, it's not just good enough to be Lyrical Miracle, the best rapper. I also need to make sure that everything the world around the music is just as unimpeachable. And I think that that starts here, and that's what sets him apart from a lot of his peers, where I feel like a lot of his peers had also, like, their own artistic peaks. But visually, I don't think they kept. Kept being interesting. And I think that with each album, Kendrick has gotten more and more interesting as a visual artist.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it reminds me on a lesser degree, but I mean, I feel like Dochi did kind of a similar thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not going to disparage Dochi on this podcast, so.

[A]

But people need to know. She's just not for me. She's just not for me.

[B]

But I think a similar thing I saw in Dochi's run of performances where it's like, it reminded people, it sent a lot of people to the album, and it kind of solidified her and that her moment wasn't alligator bites don't never heal. It was the live performances and then people recognizing how good the album was. But anyway, so I think easily that's the. If I had to pick one, it's the Grammy performance. But if I'm allowed to encapsulate an entire era, I think it's just that entire run of live performances. And that concludes our discussion. Unless you wanted to say anything else.

[A]

No, I think we're ready to go head to head. Do we just want to get right into it?

[B]

Do it? Yeah. No. No need. I think by this point in the season, everyone knows knows the deal. Five categories go up against each other, one point each. And I think. I don't know. Can we agree that we the. The entire point of this episode was not to win.

[A]

Yes. This is the rare time where I'm not trying to win.

[B]

This was in good faith because I do think it is a good have. The conversation isn't as. I think part of doing this episode was that we wanted to give Good Kid Mad City its due respect in terms of, like, of course the easy answer is to pimp a Butterfly. I think that's the safe choice. And maybe that's where we end up. But I think part of the conversation was to recognize just how close these albums are and to give a little bit more credit to a Good Kid Mad City. Not to say that it's not revered. It's just not revered in the same way. And I think a lot of this conversation about the 21st century, you have made really good points about celebrating things that aren't as. As explicit on their surface. Yeah. And recognizing that an album like Good Kid Mad City has all the things thematically that we love about Tippa Butterfly. It just doesn't have the White House on the COVID It doesn't, you know, it's not as explicit. So good faith. Head to head. Biggest song versus biggest song. Yeah.

[A]

Right. Versus Money Trees. I think all right has to take it. I don't know. Does All Right have more streams?

[B]

This is one of the surprising things about this album in General is when I looked at the streams. All right. Doesn't even have a billion streams yet, which you would think.

[A]

What has the most streams off this album?

[B]

It is all right. There's not a song on tba Butterfly, at least I'm talking just on Spotify. But it's a pretty good.

[A]

You know, I think it's like Money Trees, I think is the bigger song in terms of consumption, but in terms of legacy, what it meant, like you, if you, you're a mom in Middle of America has heard we gonna be all right. Like, I would be an asshole if I was just like, all right is clearly like, we're not talking about consumption here. We are talking about impact and importance and what it means to not only the career, but like the firmament of just what it meant to be an American in the 21st century.

[B]

Century, yeah. In a conversation about the 21st century, I think it's all right. So I'm glad we're recognizing that without debate. Best song.

[A]

I think Wesley's Theory is one of my favorite Kendrick Kumar songs. If I had to pick, it's in my top 10. I think mad City, though, just for the importance of what it means, the live element, everything that it sets up, I think it has to be Mad City.

[B]

I can't argue, I really can't argue because I, I. It was the winner of our season. We had the debate because it, I think the, the final three songs of the season were Sing About Me, Mad City and Wesley's Theory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we had the, we had the extended debate there. So if you're interested, just go return to that season. But I'm not going to fight you too hard on that because Mad City is, for all the reasons we talked about, is kind of perfect and a singular representation of, of good kid Mad City and a portrait of Compton. So I think.

[A]

All right, worst song. I think Compton is still a good song. It's just not a great song.

[B]

This is. Yeah, this is actually because they're both like, let's do the back to back comparison. You ain't got to lie.

[A]

That's a complex. Let me put it back in proper context. I actually don't.

[B]

I like this. It's not, it's not gonna, like, hit you over the head. It's not explosive. We're gonna listen to Compton and it's gonna be way more dynamic in terms of, like, it has a lot of energy and stuff, but that's a vibe. And here's Compton.

[A]

Laughing at the critics talking. I can see you gagging When I'm back in the back of my city Back in the back Khaki creasing crime increasing on rose crans Kendrick Cole.

[B]

He'S rapping his ass off on that.

[A]

You can't pick. Like, that's what I mean. Like, I don't like Compton as the ending song of Good Kid Mad City, but I would rather listen to Compton, especially if I want that old Kendrick Lamar just getting his shit off.

[B]

You're right. I can't argue.

[A]

And then I think, justin, are we.

[B]

Out of line on any of this so far?

[A]

I just can't believe what I'm watching right now. I can't watch how I'm watching these categories stack up.

[B]

No, I mean, I knew this was going to happen. Happen categorically. Good Kid Mad City, I think even.

[A]

Best deep cut easily sing about Me I'm dying.

[B]

I'm not putting up any fight about that.

[A]

And I love. I like Hood Politics better as, like, a song that, like, I would. I've listened to Hood Politics more. I like it more. I think it is a better song as a piece of art is Hood Politics is not stacking up to sing about Me. I'm Dying. Like, that is. That's a monumental thing. There's like, I would be an asshole if I tried to make an argument that hood politics to stop it just cannot.

[B]

So.

[A]

But you also get best moment easily best moment.

[B]

We'll just say, all right. Legacy. So I. I had a feeling things would shake out like this. And it doesn't surprise me that it happened so fast that technically Good Kid Mad City wins three to two.

[A]

So can I.

[B]

This is where it gets interesting, though, because is that the right decision?

[A]

And that's where I walked in and where's my head at my head is that Good Kid Mad City to me is the better album to Pimp A Butterfly is the more important album. The rapping on to Pimp A Butterfly to me is better. Like, technically how he's rapping the emotion. He just became a more confident rapper. But I think Good Kid Mad City has tighter rappers where it is just like, there's less fluff. Like onto Pimple Butterfly, Kendrick is like, he's trying a lot of things out. He's the way he's using his voice, the way like, he's trying to get more interesting and get bolder. But Good Kid Mad City, he's doing something that he's been training his whole life to do. And because it's a little less ambitious, he achieves it more.

[B]

Yeah, I want to say he into that point. He. What he does a lot. Same with Mr. Morale. And then we've talked about Tip of A Butterfly and Morale being kind of companion albums in terms of approach. He's much more concerned about serving the narrative of Tim Pimp and Butterfly than he was on Good Kid Mad City. And I think that gives him a lot of more leeway to rap differently on Good Kid Mad City and, like, make songs that are more singular in terms of, like, this can be a single and I'm doing this and this and this to hit to make a commercially pleasing album where I don't think he was concerned about that much at all on Tip and Butterfly. So much like, so much of comparing these two albums, like, categorically, yes, you could say Good Kid Mad Sitting might have the better rapping, but you have. It's. It's.

[A]

No, I technically think he is a better rapper onto Pimpa Butterfly. Like, I think, like, Hood Politics is like hood politics Blacker. The Berry Wesley's theory. It is just like he's just a better rapper on his second album than he was.

[B]

I would say there's more dissectible moments on Good Kid Mad City is what I'm trying to say. You know what I mean?

[A]

And I thought y' all thought I was going to walk in here and be like, nah, nah, it has to be Good Kid Mad City. And part of me is like, I'm still going to make the argument. I think it has to be Good Kid Mad City. I. To Pimp A Butterfly, though. The songs that. The songs that I love off that album and the heights that he's reaching, I'm like, like.

[B]

And it's. I think. Is it safe to say it's the best concept record of the century so far?

[A]

I don't know if I would co sign that it's the most ambitious concept record. It's the. It's one of the most daring.

[B]

He. The way that he resolves every single thing of the album, it's like it has three res. Has three resolutions, because there's three separate themes. Like, going on. The live performance of AI resolves one way. The Mortal man resolves him as an individual. So he's got the communal resolution. He's got the. The individual resolution in Mortal man. And then we get the Tupac surprise ending.

[A]

See a bunch. But here's the thing. A bunch of that, like, a lot of that is very, like, amazing and creative to me. Some of that is just like, my hater energy. Like, some of it's corny. So I'm just like. I don't need. Like, it's just like, I'm just listening to music. How does it make me feel? And listening to this morning.

[B]

Um.

[A]

If I'm just going based off emotion, we're still having an this argument. If I'm just going based off emotion. At 32, I connected with the emotion of To Pimp A Butterfly. More even if songs like Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst almost made me cry. Like, Like. But if I'm talking about just like, yeah, what I was connected to Pimpa Butterfly. Cause I don't. There's a bunch of songs of To Pimp a Butterfly that I do not like, that I don't return to. But the ones I do return to are just so. Just urgent. And it is a black man at a certain point, and he needs to get this out. And it is just like, I don't. To Pimp a Butterfly was one of In. In what I like from Kendrick. Historically, it's always been one of his weaker albums to me because I feel like he was searching for so much, and on subsequent albums, he gets there faster and he's just in more command of his voice. But it's. Yeah, emotionally typical. Butterfly just fucking bowled me over when I was listening to it over the past couple of days. But then again, Good Kid Mad City, if we're just talking about a perfect product, a perfect album, a perfect story, just like front to back can put it on and I understand it. And it's like, it's a. It's a perfect movie to me. And To Pimp a Butterfly to me isn't a perfect movie. It's a difficult movie. And that's why I love it. Like, I love difficult movies. I love movies where it's like every single time you go back to it, you find new things to love, new things to hate, you won't be considered.

[B]

You don't go back to it as often, but when you do, it's always an experience.

[A]

It always teaches you something new. It always reveals something new to you. And so does Good Kid Mad City. But Good Mad City to me is just more. It's more palatable. That's why I think it's like, all right, can we agree? Let's take popularity out of this, right? Let's take consumption out of it. Because if we're taking. If we're taking the categories consumption out of it, like, Good Kid Madison would run away with it. Yeah, I kind of don't want to belabor the point I came in here thinking I was going to stump for Good Kid Mad City more because I want to reward what he was able to achieve on his debut. Wait, Wesley's theory, Hood politics.

[B]

It's also. Let's just bring in this umbrella exercise that we're doing of telling the story of the 21st century. If you're thinking of yourself 25, 30 years from now, what album do you think you can tell the story of the 21st century through? More to Pimp A Butterfly or Good Kid Bad City?

[A]

I would say if we were trying to pick the best hip hop albums of the 21st century, I would pick Good Kid Mad City.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

If I'm trying to pick the best albums and the most important and influential and telling the story of the 21st century, I think I would pick. No, I know I would pick To Pimp A Butterfly. And that's what makes this. Cause I'm just like Good Kid Mad City to me is that's the rap fan spirit in me pick. That is the like. That's actually what. When you strip away everything from Kendrick Lamar. Kendrick Lamar is a fucking rapper. But in this exercise, in terms of what it means to music, I kind of think. Think we have to pick to Pembroke.

[B]

It's kind of like to me, Beyonce's Lemonade versus like A Renaissance or even self titled. Whereas you can't separate Lemonade from the cultural context that it was born in and what it meant to culture in general and what it did. You can argue that it's not her best album and I wouldn't actually argue that much harder. I think it's my. My personal pick for her. But I can. You can very well make a case for self titled or Renaissance and the first volume. And. But in an exercise like this, I think Lemonade is the album, obviously. And I think. I think actually your distinction has had like the perfect articulation of it. This was a. The best hip hop album conversation. I think it probably is Good Kid Matt, Sit. If we're just Talking about the 21st century albums, I think it has to be Tepimpe Butterfly.

[A]

And I think to your point, a lot of times, and I think this is because rap, R and B, black art has really defined the 21st century so far. I think what we're locating is with Lemonade, to me, that's when Beyonce becomes an American audience where it's like a spec. Like she was always a pop star and she had massive singles, Destiny's Childhood, whatever. Like, I'm not taking anything away. From her. But I think the conception of Beyonce, black people knew how special 4 was or self titled was or her destiny, her destiny's child work. Sometimes I think the world did not realize the artistry and it took lemonade to. For people to realize and didn't know. This is a foundational American artist. And I think it's the same thing with Kendrick Lamar where it's like To Pimp a Butterfly, the moment that he goes from being a rapper to being like, here's who we are pointing to. And I think something similar happened with my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy or even something like Mad Villainy where it's just like there are certain records where if like you are a real music head, you're like, this wasn't the record that I would pick. But if we're doing this exercise to Pimp a Butterfly tells the story of the 21st century. So I'm ha. Like, I'm actually like, we made the record. Like I am happy picking To Pimp a Butterfly even if the hip hop head in me wants to pick. Good kid.

[B]

Natsidi Justin, is this correct? I don't think there was a wrong answer here.

[A]

I think that there was also a.

[B]

World in which you had a three.

[A]

Way debate and threw in dam. And that could have actually been an interesting conversation. I think GNX is taking dam's corner.

[B]

I would actually would second that too.

[A]

I think on some days Mr. Morale.

[B]

Is my favorite Kendrick. Kendrick records. But. Well, all I'm saying is that like.

[A]

There wasn't going to be a wrong choice here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think this is the right one.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

I'm happy. Like I thought I was going to be and it's.

[B]

I'm surprised. Yeah, you've. You've really matured since I've known you, Charles. I remember our first season of last Long Standing and you know, I.

[A]

But here's the thing, if I'm going to be honest too, it's like, you know, with time, you see how Kendrick has matured. You know, like I came out the gate, I, hey, you know, you live life. Maybe it's the California air, you know what I'm saying? But it's just. Yeah. And I also think a lot of this is about. And the reason I love doing this exercise with you is that I'm returning to a lot of albums that meant not only so much to me when they dropped, but were the foundation of why I became a music critic, why I became a music journalist. And I think. I think it's a beautiful thing where it's like what To Pimp a Butterfly meant to me when I was in college versus what it meant to me when we did the first season of Last Long Standing. What it means to now, now that we're talking about the 21st century, is like, it's changed. Like, as Kendrick has matured, I've matured, as these albums have aged. And like, some of these albums that we were talking about, where it was, like, some albums that we thought were going to mash up that we actually did not pick anymore, we're like, no, it has to be. And then we listened to them with Fresh Years and we're just like, we all love 50 Cent. 50 Cent was going to be part of this Get Rich or Die Trying classic album. Love that album with. With fresh ears. I'm like, I know the sales. I know how big this was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is. Does that make any sense where you're just like, oh, like that is. That was part of this whole process.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that also speaks to the difficulty of, like, picking recent albums, too. Where it's like, it to pick a recent album. We haven't had the historical filter placed on an album like Igor or something. You know, where it's like, is this going to be 20 years from now? What's. How is it going to age? Where in the moment. 50 Cent, how could it not be that album?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But now 20 years removed, it's like, okay, we've seen how his career has. If 50 cent career goes differently, I think we actually talk about that album differently as well.

[A]

You were even at one point, we were talking about. You were talking about, like, Dochi. But I think that the funny thing that might happen with Dochi is I'm just like, we might get to a point where with her next album, she follows the Kendrick Lamar trajectory, where it's just like, oh, no, that was the album. And then when we come back, we're just like, oh. So it's like, you don't want to be a prisoner of the moment. You want to reward stuff. But you also like. Same thing with Clips. Clips probably doesn't get on this if they don't come out.

[B]

I don't think so. Yeah.

[A]

But that album helps be like, you know what? We love this album. We're hip hop heads. We actually haven't been giving them their due. Let's go. Cause, like, Clips was one of my heart picks. And when you were just like, what if we do the clips? I was like, fuck it, it's the time. So a lot of this is A timing thing. But I actually, now that we've done the whole exercise, if we go over it, we have my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy Lemonade, Marshall Mathers LP Discovery, Mad Villainy to Pimp a Butterfly. Did I miss any Blonde and Blonde? This is actually.

[B]

I'm really feeling good about this. Very excited for the finale, but. Whoa, whoa.

[A]

I'm excited for the finale, but should we pick.

[B]

Let's go right into cultural exchange.

[A]

Should we pick what? Cultural exchange.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. We'll just go pre credits. Let's just do it. So if you haven't been following along, we've been exchanging cultural exchange albums. And the catch was that one of the albums that we gave each other was going to be an automatic spot. Was going to be given for the finale. So thinking through the ones you gave me and also considering the ones that we have on the board and what the story we're trying to tell with the 21st century.

[A]

I gave you. Because I gave you Usher's Confessions. I gave you Strokes. Is this it? I gave you Futures Monster. And then we shared a pick with d' Angelo's Voodoo.

[B]

Maybe. I think maybe just in terms of balance, I'm leaning towards the Strokes also, but I really liked Future's Monster, but my heart is saying maybe put the Strokes in there just. Just for a rock representation.

[A]

I wouldn't have picked I. If I would argue down, like, I would argue more for Future if we would have picked Kid A. Um. But I think Strokes is the right choice in terms of, like, getting a rock rock balance in there, trying to get that genre. Similarly, I think I'm gonna go similar to you. So can you tell the fans what you gave me?

[B]

Gave you Lord's melodrama I gave you was the second one I gave you.

[A]

You gave me melodrama. You gave me a seat at the table.

[B]

I was seated at the table.

[A]

Killer's Hot Fuss and.

[B]

And Salon. Or the one we didn't.

[A]

If we add another. The one that I would have tried to get in there, because I think you were going to give it to me was Fion Apples. Fetch. Fetch the bolt cutters. Bolt cutters.

[B]

Shout out Fiona. Because we didn't get to talk about her.

[A]

We're both Fiona fans. Like, if that would actually have been my pick if we had gotten to it just because I. I love Fiona Apple. I want to get more women on the list, but. And I did not think that I would pick this album at the start of this. Oh, I gotta go, Solange. I gotta.

[B]

Hell, yeah. I think it's probably the best album of the list.

[A]

It's, it's an incredible album. I was being a dickhead in the moment when I was got planes in.

[B]

The sky like that alone. Cranes in the sky that alone.

[A]

It's I let's Solange is going up there. So as cultural like I'm actually, actually proud that we got Solange up there. So it's, it's launch, it's strokes and yo, that is all right, next we will so hopefully our next episode isn't contentious, but it might be. It might be. So guys, next week we crown the last album standing.

[B]

All right, beautiful. See you next time. This episode is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. One Battle After Another is coming to theaters September 26th. Don't miss legendary writer, director and producer my guy Paul Thomas Anderson teaming up with Leo DiCaprio for the first time ever. Pretty exciting. They almost teamed together in Boogie Nights, actually alongside award winning actors like Sean Penn, Teyana Taylor and Benicio Del Toro in this hilarious action packed adventure following Bob Ferguson, an ex revolutionary, on a mission mission to find his missing daughter and overcome the consequences of his past. One Battle After Another. Only in theaters September 26th. Get tickets now. Rated R. Under 17. Not admitted without parenting.